From JforJames  Sun Dec  1 13:40:41 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 13:40:41 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Narrative vs. Lyric (was: Mason plug)
Message-ID: <28.309b48ec.2b1bb1a9@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/30/02 5:54:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
writes:

> Homer's ashes roll over.
>  
>  Primitive art is communal.  Narrative and lyric are communal by nature and 
>  history; lyric is not.
All of the Homers' ashes, don't you mean? I don't see why it's suddenly
not communal when that Greek guy/gal, as pictured on the period earthenware
holding a lyre, chose to sing a lyric. Did the people gathered round get up 
and leave? And even if they did, the song was surely meant for empathetic
ears beyond those of  the singer:  Solon (the Wise) was supposed to have said 
of a song/poem by Sappho, "Let me learn this and then die." (paraphrase 
of a translation that may be entirely apocryphal).
Anyway, it seems clear to me, that some (including Mason?) see narrative 
poetry as the corrective for what they see in poetry as literary 
self-absorption. 
Some language poetry and postmo critics have criticized the lyric for
its reliance on a speaker's "voice" that conveys authenticity of experience. 
(The po lil lyric is getting banged from both sides.) And that's fine; and 
perhaps 
a fair assessment. But the lyric poem itself is hardly to blame...lyric poems
doesn't navel-gaze, poets do. 
Finnegan



From Rsgwynn1  Sun Dec  1 16:37:57 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 16:37:57 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Narrative vs. Lyric (was: Mason plug)
Message-ID: <ad.2713b27d.2b1bdb35@cs.com>

In a message dated 12/1/2002 1:13:51 PM Central Standard Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes: 
> All of the Homers' ashes, don't you mean? I don't see why it's suddenly
> not communal when that Greek guy/gal, as pictured on the period earthenware
> holding a lyre, chose to sing a lyric.

My Alma-Tadema print, "A Reading from Homer," has the same pose.
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From ganesha  Sun Dec  1 23:29:06 2002
From: ganesha (ganesha)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:29:06 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: Lilly $$$
References: <26.319cc5eb.2b157b50@aol.com>
Message-ID: <008601c299bb$5b9d3a40$65864cca@jross3>

Yeah -- it's our culture, too: someone/thing must take the blame; or,
someone/thing is to blame.  No one seems to think that "shit just happens",
despite best efforts.  sigh.

Zan

----- Original Message -----
From: <JforJames at aol.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] re: Lilly $$$


> In a message dated 11/25/02 7:32:18 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes:
>
> > Lawsuits
> >  have been filed by parents across the country who are
> >  convinced that their children suffered severe neurological
> >  damage from the mercury in the vaccines. Talking to them
> >  can be heartbreaking.
> After appropriate coaching from the trial lawyers. These
> mega-class actions are often greedy plays by "a corporation
> of attorneys' who seem to think that everything that turns
> out badly is someone's fault.
> Finnegan
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From ron.silliman  Mon Dec  2 07:28:13 2002
From: ron.silliman (Ron)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:28:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Of late on the Blog
Message-ID: <000001c299fe$4d2c5890$0242c143@Dell>

Robert Kelly & the poetics of sound

"Style is Death":
Robert Kelly Finding the Measure

A poetics of procedure:
Robert Kelly's Axon Dendron Tree

A poetics of measure:
Robert Kelly's Songs I-XXX

A note & a correction

A Projectivist journal in 2002:
Kenneth Warren's House Organ

The possibilities of micropublishing:
Sylvester Pollet's Backwoods Broadsides
-- with a look to John Taggart

George Stanley:
A Tall, Serious Girl

Julia Spahr:
Articulation vs. argument

Ruth Lilly's Gift to Poetry:
The limits of $100 million

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/











From JforJames  Mon Dec  2 12:47:17 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:47:17 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] New(s) from the Zoo, 12/2/02
Message-ID: <9b.3186ab8d.2b1cf6a5@aol.com>

Subj:    New(s) from the Zoo, 12/2/02
Date:   12/2/02 12:41:39 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:   editors at zoopress.org (Zoo Press)
To: editors at zoopress.org (Zoo Press)

1) All fall books are available and for sale:

  - The year 2001 Paris Review Prize in Poetry winner, Bryan Dietrich's
KRYPTON NIGHTS (http://zoopress.org/Dietrich.html ).

  - Terese Svoboda's TREASON (http://zoopress.org/Svoboda.html)

  - Elena Karina Byrne's THE FLAMMABLE BIRD (http://zoopress.org/Byrne.html)

  - Don Share's UNION (http://zoopress.org/Share.html)



2) Read about Zoo's new fiction program:
(http://www.zoopress.org/zoo_fiction.html)



3) See Edward Hirsch's review of Kathy Fagan's THE CHARM is his column,
Poets Choice in the Washington Post
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A48790-2002Nov27.html)



4) See pictures from Zoo Press's anniversary bash at New York's National
Arts Club on November 1st (http://www.zoopress.org/zoo_event.html ).



5) As everyone now knows by now, Ruth Stone won this year's National Book
Award for poetry. See selections of her poems along with selections from
many other important contemporary American poets in the excellent Columbia
University Press anthology, THE EXTRAORDINARY TIDE: NEW POETRY BY AMERICAN
WOMEN edited by Erin Belieu and Susan Aizenberg
(http://www.columbia.edu/cu/cup/catalog/data/023111/0231119623.HTM ).



--
ZOO PRESS
PO Box 22990 | Lincoln, NE 68542 | (402) 770-8104 | FAX (402) 328-2803
editors at zoopress.org | http://zoopress.org

Distributed to the Trade by the University of Nebraska Press
http://www.nebraskapress.unl.edu/

Our lists have gotten mixed. If you're receiving this press release, and you
don't want to, please alert us at editors at zoopress.org and we'll remove you
promptly. We apologize for any inconvenience.



From paul.lake  Mon Dec  2 12:59:00 2002
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 11:59:00 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Flyway
Message-ID: <BA10FB84.3BBA%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

I just got an email from something called the Flyway Literary Review,
supposedly from the English Dept. of Iowa State University, advertising a
special Arab-American issue.  I haven't opened the attachment, for fear of a
possible virus, after noting that "Flyway" might not be the right literary
review to have a special issue on Arab-American work.

Is the journal legit?

Paul Lake




From gmguddi  Mon Dec  2 13:05:04 2002
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 12:05:04 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Flyway
In-Reply-To: <BA10FB84.3BBA%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021202120334.018c6ff8@mail.ilstu.edu>

Paul, _Flyway_ is indeed a legit journal. I thought they were defunct 
though. They must be up and running again. And yes the old Flyway flew out 
of Iowa State.

Gabe

At 11:59 AM 12/2/2002 -0600, Paul Lake wrote:
>I just got an email from something called the Flyway Literary Review,
>supposedly from the English Dept. of Iowa State University, advertising a
>special Arab-American issue.  I haven't opened the attachment, for fear of a
>possible virus, after noting that "Flyway" might not be the right literary
>review to have a special issue on Arab-American work.
>
>Is the journal legit?
>
>Paul Lake
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

Gabriel Gudding
Assistant Professor
Department of English
Illinois State University
Normal, IL  61790
office 309.438.5284
home 309.828.8377

http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html




From hruggier  Mon Dec  2 13:29:32 2002
From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 13:29:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Flyway
References: <BA10FB84.3BBA%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <3DEBA68C.F1E4D420@localnet.com>

Flyweight?

Paul Lake wrote:

> I just got an email from something called the Flyway Literary Review,
> supposedly from the English Dept. of Iowa State University, advertising a
> special Arab-American issue.  I haven't opened the attachment, for fear of a
> possible virus, after noting that "Flyway" might not be the right literary
> review to have a special issue on Arab-American work.
>
> Is the journal legit?
>
> Paul Lake
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From cindymonroe  Mon Dec  2 13:44:30 2002
From: cindymonroe (cindymonroe)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:44:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] narrative vs lyric and empathy
References: <20021201170102.ABB5110201@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <001801c29a32$db54b840$3e133ccc@net>

Finnegan wrote:

<Anyway, it seems clear to me, that some (including Mason?) see narrative
poetry as the corrective for what they see in poetry as literary
self-absorption.>

Yes, I actually do think that the narrative is a way to escape
self-absorption, but only if the "object of empathy" in the narrative is not
the writer. And there's no faking allowed! Hang in here with me for a minute
while I explain. The matter of empathy in the narrative vs the lyric really
centers on the different motivations of writers. According to Webster's,
empathy is simply "the capacity for participation in another's feelings or
ideas." The question is:  "whose feelings or ideas are intended to be the
object of empathy?"  The answer determines voice and depends on what you are
trying to accomplish, which requires knowing why you write. Not everyone has
the same reasons, hence, all the disagreement.

Some writers feel that their own life events, feelings, speculations and/or
linguistic experiments are sufficiently unique and interesting as to warrant
recordation. Regardless of form or mode, the object of empathy in such work
is always the same--the writer himself. I happen to consider my own grief,
joy, etc. to be both private and mundane. This is why, even though I have
decided that I want to tell stories in poetic form, I am not interested in
telling the "story of me," i.e. making myself the object of empathy. This
does not mean that personal experience and emotions don't inform my
narrative poetry, only that the objects of empathy in my work really are
"somebody-elses"-- tragic or comedic characters. If I do my job well, this
provides an escape from self for both me and the reader. That's the reason I
write. It's the reason I read. And it's the reason the narrative endures.

Cindy M.






From JforJames  Mon Dec  2 15:48:54 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 15:48:54 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] narrative vs lyric and empathy
Message-ID: <11f.1aa40d11.2b1d2136@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/2/02 1:44:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
cindymonroe at sbcglobal.net writes:

> Anyway, it seems clear to me, that some (including Mason?) see narrative
>  poetry as the corrective for what they see in poetry as literary
>  self-absorption.>
>  
>  Yes, I actually do think that the narrative is a way to escape
>  self-absorption, but only if the "object of empathy" in the narrative is 
not
>  the writer. And there's no faking allowed! Hang in here with me for a 
minute
>  while I explain. The matter of empathy in the narrative vs the lyric really
>  centers on the different motivations of writers. According to Webster's,
>  empathy is simply "the capacity for participation in another's feelings or
>  ideas." The question is:  "whose feelings or ideas are intended to be the
>  object of empathy?"  The answer determines voice and depends on what you 
are
>  trying to accomplish, which requires knowing why you write. Not everyone 
has
>  the same reasons, hence, all the disagreement.
>  
>  Some writers feel that their own life events, feelings, speculations and/or
>  linguistic experiments are sufficiently unique and interesting as to 
warrant
>  recordation. Regardless of form or mode, the object of empathy in such work
>  is always the same--the writer himself. I happen to consider my own grief,
>  joy, etc. to be both private and mundane. This is why, even though I have
>  decided that I want to tell stories in poetic form, I am not interested in
>  telling the "story of me," i.e. making myself the object of empathy. This
>  does not mean that personal experience and emotions don't inform my
>  narrative poetry, only that the objects of empathy in my work really are
>  "somebody-elses"-- tragic or comedic characters. If I do my job well, this
>  provides an escape from self for both me and the reader. That's the reason 
I
>  write. It's the reason I read. And it's the reason the narrative endures.
>  
Cindy,
In case I've come off wrong, I want to say I appreciate the narrative mode 
as much as anyone. I'm sure I'm starting to sound like a recorded loop here, 
but what I can't understand is how narrative poetry has any "special claim" 
to empathy. 
Re your perspective: I don't really see the importance of the writer
in what you term the "object of empathy." The poem is written from the 
voice of a speaker (maybe a person we could look up in the phone 
book or maybe not) or a character (based on someone's real life or
maybe not) is evoked; and that speaker/character will, at times, 
create an empathetic response in us (the readers). We read and
we say to ourselves, "I know what it is to feel ___________;
I have experienced that _________, too"  In empathy, from a 
writer's point of view, it's not the object of but the quality of the 
response in the reader, the complexity or weight of what is 
felt/experienced, that is important. The degree of autobiography 
that the writer has employed in the poem has nothing to do with 
the poem's ability to summons an empathetic response. 
Finnegan



From JforJames  Mon Dec  2 15:56:41 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 15:56:41 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Norton Poets Online
Message-ID: <b9.2ad0c747.2b1d2309@aol.com>

Subj:    Norton Poets Online Newsletter
Date:   12/2/02 3:52:27 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:   nvictor at WWNORTON.com (Victor, Nomi)
To: poetry at wwnorton.biglist.com ('poetry at wwnorton.biglist.com')


> http://www.nortonpoets.com
> 
> -----------
> 
> 
> **New in the Poet's Workshop **
> Courage
> by Molly Peacock
> 
> **New in paperback**
> A. R. Ammmons, A COAST OF TREES
> A. R. Ammons, GARBAGE
> 
> 
> 
> **Poem of the Month: "Rapids" by A. R. Ammons**
> 
> Fall's leaves are redder than
> spring's flowers, have no pollen,
> and also sometimes fly, as the wind
> schools them out or down in shoals
> or droves: though I
> have not been here long, I can
> look up at the sky at night and tell
> how things are likely to go for 
> the next hundred million years:
> the universe will probably not find
> a way to vanish nor I
> in all that time reappear.
> 
> 
> ? 1981 by A. R. Ammons
> 
> 
> 

--+------------------------------------------------------------------
You are subscribed as: jforjames at aol.com
To unsubscribe, go to: 
http://wwnorton.biglist.com/unsub.php/poetry/jforjames at aol.com
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From Rsgwynn1  Mon Dec  2 19:30:13 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 19:30:13 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cow Poets Online
Message-ID: <39.310c8e13.2b1d5515@cs.com>

Artist Hopes Dairy Herd Makes Poetry

December 2, 2002
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS 






Filed at 2:10 p.m. ET 

PURCHASE, N.Y. (AP) -- Any artist can paint cows. Nathan
Banks paints ON cows. 

Banks, a 22-year-old student at Purchase College, painted
single words (from ``a'' to ``existential'') on the flanks
of about 60 cows near his upstate New York home, then let
them wander around to see if they could compose poetry. 

So Holsteins and Jerseys named Elsie and Maggie came up
with phrases like ``eccentric art,'' ``performance as cow
environment'' and Banks' own favorite, ``organic conceptual
art as poetry.'' 

One animal seemed especially inspired -- with ``away''
written on her side, she broke loose from the herd for a
while. 

The ``Cow Project,'' with videotape and photos of the
bovine bards, goes on display at the college Thursday. 

``The idea is that the artist sets up the situation and
then it carries through on its own,'' Banks said in an
interview last week at his tiny student's studio. 

The entire three-day episode was documented by Banks and a
couple of dozen other students, who were bused up to
Delaware County, in the northern foothills of the
Catskills, for the mid-September happening. 

``It was peculiar,'' said Gerry Ruestow, who let Banks use
so-called ``tail paint'' -- a harmless substance that
eventually flakes off -- on his dairy herd in Sidney
Center. ``Those art people tend to do things that are a
little bit outside the box. We did get some people who
wandered by to see what the crazies up the road were
doing.'' 

Banks, a senior, said the project cost him about $1,000 and
he had to overcome a few obstacles. Half a dozen dairy
farmers turned him down before Ruestow and his wife Susan,
Banks' old music teacher, agreed to let him use their
Fermata Farm. 

``There was a big concern that the cows would be stressed
and give less milk,'' Banks said. Gerry Ruestow said milk
production actually went up a bit, ``probably because the
cows were a bit more active. The cows were as interested in
the observers as the observers were in the cows.'' 

Working around the milking schedule, Banks painted the
words in foot-tall blue and orange letters while the cows
were in their stalls. He wanted to put a word on each side
of every cow, but some of the animals were skittish about
it and ended up with just one word. 

``They're used to being milked from the same side all the
time and they didn't like being approached on the other
side,'' Banks said. 

Then there were the necessary touchups. Some cows messed up
their words when they lay down, or swished their tail, or
got a little cow pie on them. 

``I'd repaint, right over the manure,'' Banks said.


Banks' previous performance art projects include living in
an elevator for 32 hours and imitating male-pattern
baldness by gradually shaving and thinning his hair. 

He said he got the idea for the cow project when he read
about Dada artists dropping cut-up newspapers on the floor
to see what poetry was formed. 

He picked most of the words with his eyes closed, taking
whatever word was closest when he put a finger down on a
page of an art history textbook. He added a few, like the
name of the farm and his old nickname, ``Nater,'' which he
uses to sign his works. 

Now Banks is editing the videotape and arranging the
photographs for the exhibit. His art student schoolmates'
notations of the cow poetry are collected in four binders. 

Visitors to the exhibit will be encouraged to make their
own cow poetry by taking a tiny cardboard cow, writing a
word on it and setting it down on the vibrating board from
an old electric football game so it can wander and interact
with other cows. 

On opening night, there will also be refreshments, in the
form of cow-shaped cookies. And milk. 
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From mandolin  Mon Dec  2 20:22:30 2002
From: mandolin (Michael Snider)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 20:22:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cow Poets Online
In-Reply-To: <39.310c8e13.2b1d5515@cs.com>
Message-ID: <B11F1907-065D-11D7-BCA6-000393C29586@mac.com>

On Monday, December 2, 2002, at 07:30  PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

> Filed at 2:10 p.m. ET
>
> PURCHASE, N.Y. (AP) -- Any artist can paint cows. Nathan
> Banks paints ON cows.
>

Gives a new meaning to bucolic poetry, eh?




From grahamd  Tue Dec  3 01:04:55 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 00:04:55 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] narrative vs lyric and empathy
Message-ID: <200212030603.gB363grn014334@mx7.mx.voyager.net>

I come to this whole discussion from the perspective of someone very
interested in the uses of autobiography and the lyric-I in poetry. 
(Consider my often-plugged book plugged again here.)  While working on this
issue I've become convinced that the usual knock against lyric-I poems
(excessive self-absorption), is much too sweeping and simplistic.  

The proof, I would have thought, is in the anthologies:  century after
century of lyric poems that do more than whine about the writer's personal
life, or merely navel-gaze.  That's one reason I mentioned Whitman's "Drum
Taps" poems a while ago--as examples of often highly lyrical poems that
clearly open outward, and betray little stink of solipsism.  (Odd that
Whitman generally has a reputation for excessive personality, when in fact
his poems tell us very little about his life or intimacies.)

In any case, I'm still not sure what the distinction between narrative and
lyric tells us, if anything, about these issues.  Seems clear to me that a
narrative can be blinkered and navel-gazing just as a lyric can.  I love
narrative poetry, too, but I'm not convinced that inventing character is
necessarily a hedge against a limited worldview, triviality, self-enclosure,
and what have you.  

Whether we're seeing a particular flourishing of navel-gazing in
contemporary poetry these days is another question, but I don't think it's
helpful to blame it (if it exists) on the sub-genre.  As Finnegan says,
blame the poets instead.  

And--here's the crucial point, I think--don't forget about all the
contempories who are doing interesting and un-self-enclosed work in the
lyric mode or variants thereof.  We can all supply our own lists, I'm sure. 
But how about a poem like Etheridge Knight's "The Idea of Ancestry"?  I
can't imagine a more personal poem, really, nor one that is less open to the
charge of mere navel-gazing.  

Lots of eyebrows lift when someone mentions yet another poem about the
poet's family--but I think Knight's poem is one example of how even that
risky subject can be transformed into something worthwhile.  

     ?

     The Idea of Ancestry
     Etheridge Knight

     1

     Taped to the wall of my cell are 47 pictures: 47 black
     faces: my father, mother, grandmothers (1 dead), grand-
     fathers (both dead), brothers, sisters, uncles, aunts,
     cousins (1st and 2nd), nieces, and nephews.  They stare
     across the space at me sprawling on my bunk.  I know
     their dark eyes, they know mine.  I know their style,
     they know mine.  I am all of them, they are all of me;
     they are farmers, I am a thief, I am me, they are thee.

     I have at one time or another been in love with my mother,
     1 grandmother, 2 sisters, 2 aunts (1 went to the asylum),
     and 5 cousins.  I am now in love with a 7-yr-old niece
     (she sends me letters in large block print, and
     her picture is the only one that smiles at me).

     I have the same name as 1 grandfather, 3 cousins, 3 nephews,
     and 1 uncle. The uncle disappeared when he was 15, just took
     off and caught a freight (they say).  He's discussed each year
     when the family has a reunion, he causes uneasiness in
     the clan, he is an empty space.  My father's mother, who is 93
     and who keeps the Family Bible with everbody's birth dates
     (and death dates) in it, always mentions him.  There is no
     place in her Bible for "whereabouts unknown."

     2

     Each fall the graves of my grandfathers call me, the brown
     hills and red gullies of mississippi send out their electric
     messages, galvanizing my genes.  Last yr/like a salmon quitting
     the cold ocean-leaping and bucking up his birth stream/I
     hitchhiked my way from LA with 16 caps in my pocket and a
     monkey on my back.  And I almost kicked it with the kinfolks.
     I walked barefooted in my grandmother's backyard/I smelled the
        old
     land and the woods/I sipped cornwhiskey from fruit jars with the
        men/
     I flirted with the women/I had a ball till the caps ran out
     and my habit came down.  That night I looked at my grandmother
     and split/my guts were screaming for junk/but I was almost
     contented/I had almost caught up with me.
     (The next day in Memphis I cracked a croaker's crib for a fix.)

     This yr there is a gray stone wall damming my stream, and when
     the falling leaves stir my genes, I pace my cell or flop on my bunk
     and stare at 47 black faces across the space.  I am all of them,
     they are all of me, I am me, they are thee, and I have no children
     to float in the space between.

               --From *The Essential Etheridge Knight*.  U Pittsburgh.
-------------------------------------------------------------

(Pages and pages of illustrations.)
========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
undergraduate education."
   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================




From bobgrumman  Tue Dec  3 05:52:38 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 05:52:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] narrative vs lyric and empathy
References: <200212030603.gB363grn014334@mx7.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <001501c29aba$19320be0$a886fea9@j1c1k6>

David Graham wrote:

I come to this whole discussion from the perspective of someone very
interested in the uses of autobiography and the lyric-I in poetry.
(Consider my often-plugged book plugged again here.)  While working on this
issue I've become convinced that the usual knock against lyric-I poems
(excessive self-absorption), is much too sweeping and simplistic.

Agreed.  Many lyric poems are less self-absorbed than ANY narrative poem:
Saroyan's "lighght," for instance.  Of course, properly understood, this
poem could be considered a narrative poem (since light moves in it), but not
reasonably.  Aside from that, what is wrong with "excessive
self-absorption?"  Isn't it just one more subject for poetry?  The problem
is that it is used too often, and with too over-used a set of techniques.
Which is also the problem with most of today's narrative poetry.

--Bob G.





From marcus  Tue Dec  3 06:35:08 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 06:35:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cow Poets Online
In-Reply-To: <B11F1907-065D-11D7-BCA6-000393C29586@mac.com>
References: <39.310c8e13.2b1d5515@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3DEC509C.17425.28CD2D@localhost>

> On Monday, December 2, 2002, at 07:30  PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
> > PURCHASE, N.Y. (AP) -- Any artist can paint cows. Nathan
> > Banks paints ON cows.

On 2 Dec 2002 at 20:22, Michael Snider wrote:
> Gives a new meaning to bucolic poetry, eh?

The pastoral herd 'round the world.



Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From marcus  Tue Dec  3 07:57:36 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 07:57:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] narrative vs lyric and empathy
In-Reply-To: <11f.1aa40d11.2b1d2136@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3DEC63F0.29553.7450E6@localhost>

Finegan:
> ... I don't really see the importance of the writer
> in what you term the "object of empathy." The poem is written from the 
> voice of a speaker ...  In empathy, from a 
> writer's point of view, it's not the object of but the quality of the 
> response in the reader, the complexity or weight of what is 
> felt/experienced, that is important. The degree of autobiography 
> that the writer has employed in the poem has nothing to do with 
> the poem's ability to summons an empathetic response. <<

It seems to me that the difference is not so much in whether a poem 
is "lyric" or "narrative" (or some other literary descriptor), but in 
whether the poet is trying to "get it out there" or "get it across", 
that is, whether the poem is information or communication. 

The notion of _empathy created in the reader_ presupposes, I think, 
that the poem is "communication" -- that the purpose and intent of 
the poem and poet is to "get it across" rather than merely to "get it 
out there".  Getting it across requires skills and techniques that 
getting it out there does not.  It is in the use of those skills and 
techniques to create empathy in the reader that art inheres -- and 
the apt uses of those skills and techniques that successfully create 
empathy in the reader is good art, while inept uses that do not 
succeed in creating empathy in the reader is bad art, in my view.

I'm sort of baffled by attempts to privilege "lyric" over "narrative" 
poetry, or vice versa -- as well as by attempts to privilege "avant 
garde" over "mainstream" poetry, or vice versa.  It seems to me that 
the important thing is whether one successfully employs the skills 
and techniques of language manipulation to create empathy in the 
reader, and not whether this technique is "narrative" or "avant 
garde" or "lyric" or "mainstream".

It does seem to me that some skills and techniques are out of fashion 
to such an extent that those poets who eschew them are limited in 
their range of audience, but even within a limited range of audience 
using a limited range of skills and techniques it looks to me as if 
good poets are still trying to "get it across" and not merely "get it 
out there".  It is, I think, the hallmark of the inept poet that all 
he or she seeks is to "get it out there" instead of to "get it 
across", just as it is the hallmark of the inept teacher to say "I 
taught it to them but they didn't learn it".



Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From ganesha  Tue Dec  3 23:19:08 2002
From: ganesha (ganesha)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 12:19:08 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cow Poets Online
References: <39.310c8e13.2b1d5515@cs.com>
Message-ID: <004801c29b4c$4babdf50$0100a8c0@jross3>

Brilliant!!  Thanks for posting this!

Zan
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 8:30 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Cow Poets Online


  Artist Hopes Dairy Herd Makes Poetry

  December 2, 2002
  By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS 






  Filed at 2:10 p.m. ET 

  PURCHASE, N.Y. (AP) -- Any artist can paint cows. Nathan
  Banks paints ON cows. 

  Banks, a 22-year-old student at Purchase College, painted
  single words (from ``a'' to ``existential'') on the flanks
  of about 60 cows near his upstate New York home, then let
  them wander around to see if they could compose poetry. 

  So Holsteins and Jerseys named Elsie and Maggie came up
  with phrases like ``eccentric art,'' ``performance as cow
  environment'' and Banks' own favorite, ``organic conceptual
  art as poetry.'' 

  One animal seemed especially inspired -- with ``away''
  written on her side, she broke loose from the herd for a
  while. 

  The ``Cow Project,'' with videotape and photos of the
  bovine bards, goes on display at the college Thursday. 

  ``The idea is that the artist sets up the situation and
  then it carries through on its own,'' Banks said in an
  interview last week at his tiny student's studio. 

  The entire three-day episode was documented by Banks and a
  couple of dozen other students, who were bused up to
  Delaware County, in the northern foothills of the
  Catskills, for the mid-September happening. 

  ``It was peculiar,'' said Gerry Ruestow, who let Banks use
  so-called ``tail paint'' -- a harmless substance that
  eventually flakes off -- on his dairy herd in Sidney
  Center. ``Those art people tend to do things that are a
  little bit outside the box. We did get some people who
  wandered by to see what the crazies up the road were
  doing.'' 

  Banks, a senior, said the project cost him about $1,000 and
  he had to overcome a few obstacles. Half a dozen dairy
  farmers turned him down before Ruestow and his wife Susan,
  Banks' old music teacher, agreed to let him use their
  Fermata Farm. 

  ``There was a big concern that the cows would be stressed
  and give less milk,'' Banks said. Gerry Ruestow said milk
  production actually went up a bit, ``probably because the
  cows were a bit more active. The cows were as interested in
  the observers as the observers were in the cows.'' 

  Working around the milking schedule, Banks painted the
  words in foot-tall blue and orange letters while the cows
  were in their stalls. He wanted to put a word on each side
  of every cow, but some of the animals were skittish about
  it and ended up with just one word. 

  ``They're used to being milked from the same side all the
  time and they didn't like being approached on the other
  side,'' Banks said. 

  Then there were the necessary touchups. Some cows messed up
  their words when they lay down, or swished their tail, or
  got a little cow pie on them. 

  ``I'd repaint, right over the manure,'' Banks said.


  Banks' previous performance art projects include living in
  an elevator for 32 hours and imitating male-pattern
  baldness by gradually shaving and thinning his hair. 

  He said he got the idea for the cow project when he read
  about Dada artists dropping cut-up newspapers on the floor
  to see what poetry was formed. 

  He picked most of the words with his eyes closed, taking
  whatever word was closest when he put a finger down on a
  page of an art history textbook. He added a few, like the
  name of the farm and his old nickname, ``Nater,'' which he
  uses to sign his works. 

  Now Banks is editing the videotape and arranging the
  photographs for the exhibit. His art student schoolmates'
  notations of the cow poetry are collected in four binders. 

  Visitors to the exhibit will be encouraged to make their
  own cow poetry by taking a tiny cardboard cow, writing a
  word on it and setting it down on the vibrating board from
  an old electric football game so it can wander and interact
  with other cows. 

  On opening night, there will also be refreshments, in the
  form of cow-shaped cookies. And milk. 
-------------- next part --------------
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From ganesha  Tue Dec  3 23:45:38 2002
From: ganesha (ganesha)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 12:45:38 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] narrative vs lyric and empathy
References: <200212030603.gB363grn014334@mx7.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <007901c29b4f$ff7a9320$0100a8c0@jross3>

Thanks for posting the poem, David.  Beautiful, beautiful ...

Zan
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 2:04 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] narrative vs lyric and empathy


I come to this whole discussion from the perspective of someone very
interested in the uses of autobiography and the lyric-I in poetry.
(Consider my often-plugged book plugged again here.)  While working on this
issue I've become convinced that the usual knock against lyric-I poems
(excessive self-absorption), is much too sweeping and simplistic.

The proof, I would have thought, is in the anthologies:  century after
century of lyric poems that do more than whine about the writer's personal
life, or merely navel-gaze.  That's one reason I mentioned Whitman's "Drum
Taps" poems a while ago--as examples of often highly lyrical poems that
clearly open outward, and betray little stink of solipsism.  (Odd that
Whitman generally has a reputation for excessive personality, when in fact
his poems tell us very little about his life or intimacies.)

In any case, I'm still not sure what the distinction between narrative and
lyric tells us, if anything, about these issues.  Seems clear to me that a
narrative can be blinkered and navel-gazing just as a lyric can.  I love
narrative poetry, too, but I'm not convinced that inventing character is
necessarily a hedge against a limited worldview, triviality, self-enclosure,
and what have you.

Whether we're seeing a particular flourishing of navel-gazing in
contemporary poetry these days is another question, but I don't think it's
helpful to blame it (if it exists) on the sub-genre.  As Finnegan says,
blame the poets instead.

And--here's the crucial point, I think--don't forget about all the
contempories who are doing interesting and un-self-enclosed work in the
lyric mode or variants thereof.  We can all supply our own lists, I'm sure.
But how about a poem like Etheridge Knight's "The Idea of Ancestry"?  I
can't imagine a more personal poem, really, nor one that is less open to the
charge of mere navel-gazing.

Lots of eyebrows lift when someone mentions yet another poem about the
poet's family--but I think Knight's poem is one example of how even that
risky subject can be transformed into something worthwhile.



     The Idea of Ancestry
     Etheridge Knight

     1

     Taped to the wall of my cell are 47 pictures: 47 black
     faces: my father, mother, grandmothers (1 dead), grand-
     fathers (both dead), brothers, sisters, uncles, aunts,
     cousins (1st and 2nd), nieces, and nephews.  They stare
     across the space at me sprawling on my bunk.  I know
     their dark eyes, they know mine.  I know their style,
     they know mine.  I am all of them, they are all of me;
     they are farmers, I am a thief, I am me, they are thee.

     I have at one time or another been in love with my mother,
     1 grandmother, 2 sisters, 2 aunts (1 went to the asylum),
     and 5 cousins.  I am now in love with a 7-yr-old niece
     (she sends me letters in large block print, and
     her picture is the only one that smiles at me).

     I have the same name as 1 grandfather, 3 cousins, 3 nephews,
     and 1 uncle. The uncle disappeared when he was 15, just took
     off and caught a freight (they say).  He's discussed each year
     when the family has a reunion, he causes uneasiness in
     the clan, he is an empty space.  My father's mother, who is 93
     and who keeps the Family Bible with everbody's birth dates
     (and death dates) in it, always mentions him.  There is no
     place in her Bible for "whereabouts unknown."

     2

     Each fall the graves of my grandfathers call me, the brown
     hills and red gullies of mississippi send out their electric
     messages, galvanizing my genes.  Last yr/like a salmon quitting
     the cold ocean-leaping and bucking up his birth stream/I
     hitchhiked my way from LA with 16 caps in my pocket and a
     monkey on my back.  And I almost kicked it with the kinfolks.
     I walked barefooted in my grandmother's backyard/I smelled the
        old
     land and the woods/I sipped cornwhiskey from fruit jars with the
        men/
     I flirted with the women/I had a ball till the caps ran out
     and my habit came down.  That night I looked at my grandmother
     and split/my guts were screaming for junk/but I was almost
     contented/I had almost caught up with me.
     (The next day in Memphis I cracked a croaker's crib for a fix.)

     This yr there is a gray stone wall damming my stream, and when
     the falling leaves stir my genes, I pace my cell or flop on my bunk
     and stare at 47 black faces across the space.  I am all of them,
     they are all of me, I am me, they are thee, and I have no children
     to float in the space between.

               --From *The Essential Etheridge Knight*.  U Pittsburgh.
-------------------------------------------------------------

(Pages and pages of illustrations.)
========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality: personal,
undergraduate education."
   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From JforJames  Wed Dec  4 00:08:04 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:08:04 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] narrative vs lyric and empathy
Message-ID: <ae.32698703.2b1ee7b4@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/3/02 7:52:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
marcus at designerglass.com writes:

> The notion of _empathy created in the reader_ presupposes, I think, 
>  that the poem is "communication" -- that the purpose and intent of 
>  the poem and poet is to "get it across" rather than merely to "get it 
>  out there".  Getting it across requires skills and techniques that 
>  getting it out there does not.
Marcus,
I feel the need to say that the writer is not responsible, in some sense,
for what evokes empathy in the reader. I may read a passage that brings 
a tear to my eye because of the shock of recognition...I feel a deep 
kindredship 
in the experience as rendered; while you may read the very same lines with a 
dispassionate  & critical eye. Yet each of us might assess the passage as a 
wonderful bit of writing. Communication, it seems to me, is something the 
poet 
must not obsess over. He/she must simply trust that is will happen: that the 
best poem will make its way in the world, will "Win friends and influence 
people," 
as the Dale Carnegie classes promise. 

> t does seem to me that some skills and techniques are out of fashion 
>  to such an extent that those poets who eschew them are limited in 
>  their range of audience, but even within a limited range of audience 
>  using a limited range of skills and techniques it looks to me as if 
>  good poets are still trying to "get it across" and not merely "get it 
>  out there".

This reminded me of something Montale wrote, "There is still an art which
tries to escape from time but nevertheless bears the characteristics
of our epoch....And poetry, which is generally ahead of its time, may
go so far ahead as to seem behind the time." (from "Poet In Our Time")

Finnegan



From JforJames  Wed Dec  4 00:15:53 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:15:53 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cow Poets Online
Message-ID: <14.3af0b08.2b1ee989@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/2/02 7:31:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
writes:

> painted
>  single words (from ``a'' to ``existential'') on the flanks
>  of about 60 cows near his upstate New York home, then let
>  them wander around to see if they could compose poetry. 

and who said Ruminantic Poetry was passe?
Finnegan



From halvard  Wed Dec  4 08:06:42 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 08:06:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Carl Rakosi, "Strictly Iowa"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEMIFOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Strictly Iowa    	(XI from "Americana")

They were married so long
                                         they were worn down
to the same element:
                               two factual blue eyes
and an open freckled face
neither liberal nor conservative,
like the Revolutionary farmer,
and as sparing with an adjective
                                                 as a short-haired dog.

--Carl Rakosi

fr. *Ere-Voice*
[New York: New Directions, 1975]


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard





From marcus  Wed Dec  4 08:33:04 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 08:33:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] narrative vs lyric and empathy
In-Reply-To: <ae.32698703.2b1ee7b4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3DEDBDC0.12169.435F9F@localhost>

> marcus at designerglass.com writes:
> > The notion of _empathy created in the reader_ presupposes, I think, 
> >  that the poem is "communication" -- that the purpose and intent of 
> >  the poem and poet is to "get it across" rather than merely to "get it 
> >  out there".  Getting it across requires skills and techniques that 
> >  getting it out there does not.

Finnegan:
> I feel the need to say that the writer is not responsible, in some sense,
> for what evokes empathy in the reader. I may read a passage that brings 
> a tear to my eye because of the shock of recognition...I feel a deep 
> kindredship 
> in the experience as rendered; while you may read the very same lines with a 
> dispassionate  & critical eye. Yet each of us might assess the passage as a 
> wonderful bit of writing. Communication, it seems to me, is something the 
> poet 
> must not obsess over. He/she must simply trust that is will happen: that the 
> best poem will make its way in the world, will "Win friends and influence 
> people," 
> as the Dale Carnegie classes promise. 

Doesn't "the best poem will make its way in the world" beg the 
question, though?  The reason the "best poem" makes its way in the 
world is, it seems to me, that it communicates rather than informs, 
and it is because it communicates rather than informs that makes it a 
"best poem".  It literally "makes" its way -- it doesn't merely 
passively find some safe harbor of cultish devotees who guard its 
occult meaning from the intrusive pawing of the mass culture, for 
example.

But not much poetry is a matter of "best poem" -- most poetry is, as 
most things and endeavors are, mediocre.  What I was trying to get at 
was what we can say about the difference between good art and bad 
art, about all poetry, not just "best poems".  

It seems to me that almost all of the worst and much of the mediocre 
poems written in any age are bad or mediocre because they are trying 
to "get it out there" instead of trying to "get it across".  Bad and 
mediocre poems are *hoping* to find that cultish group of devotees 
because that's their only chance to be remembered.  "Best poems" are 
going to be remembered and preserved by any age's and any culture's 
best appreciators of art.

Marcus:
> > It does seem to me that some skills and techniques are out of fashion 
> >  to such an extent that those poets who eschew them are limited in 
> >  their range of audience, but even within a limited range of audience 
> >  using a limited range of skills and techniques it looks to me as if 
> >  good poets are still trying to "get it across" and not merely "get it 
> >  out there".

Finnegan: 
> This reminded me of something Montale wrote, "There is still an art which
> tries to escape from time but nevertheless bears the characteristics
> of our epoch....And poetry, which is generally ahead of its time, may
> go so far ahead as to seem behind the time." (from "Poet In Our Time")

Well, this and a back-channel comment show me that I didn't "get it 
across" here.  

I was trying to say, but failed to make clear, that it seems to me 
that poets who refuse to use some language techniques because they 
are out-of-fashion techniques (out of fashion because too old or too 
new) are making it hard on themselves, are making it harder to "get 
it across" than it already is, harder than it has to be. But even 
they, even those artists who eschew some techniques for reasons of 
fashion, even they are trying to "get it across" not merely "get it 
out there", I think.  Once again, those artists who believe that 
getting it out there is all that is necessary to make art are like 
teachers who think that "covering the material" is all they're 
responsible for.  

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From CobbCoStudioArts  Wed Dec  4 08:41:04 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 05:41:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cow Poets Online
Message-ID: <20021204134104.ACC423E6D@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From halvard  Wed Dec  4 10:31:41 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 10:31:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Carl Rakosi, "Simplicity"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEMLFOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Simplicity        (XV from "Americana")

o rare circle,
you are not in favor now.
Not much is written about you. 
Perhaps not much is known about you.
But when I hear this,

"I am just a widow woman.
What do I know?"

and when I see the father of many children
hurrying to the polls in Saigon
to pick the candidate whose symbol is the plow

and when I hear an eighteen year old tell the judge
"So here is Tom Rodd.
                                   I wanted to go to Selma
and Montgomery but I didn't.
I wanted to go to Washington and confront the President
                                   but I didn't.
But this war is too much for me to say I didn't.
So I'm prepared to go to jail.
                                   I have no beef against this court.
I want my friends to know that I'm an optimist.
I drink beer and I play the banjo."

O rare simplicity,
                           when I hear this,
I know I am in your honest presence.

--Carl Rakosi

fr. *Ere-Voice*
[New York: New Directions, 1975]


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard





From hruggier  Wed Dec  4 11:02:27 2002
From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 11:02:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cow Poets Online
References: <39.310c8e13.2b1d5515@cs.com> <004801c29b4c$4babdf50$0100a8c0@jross3>
Message-ID: <3DEE2713.D481A563@localnet.com>

Did they print any of the poems ?  I'd like to read a few.

ganesha wrote:

> Brilliant!!  Thanks for posting this! Zan
>
>      ----- Original Message -----
>      From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
>      To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>      Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 8:30 AM
>      Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Cow Poets Online
>       Artist Hopes Dairy Herd Makes Poetry
>
>      December 2, 2002
>      By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
>
>
>
>
>
>
>      Filed at 2:10 p.m. ET
>
>      PURCHASE, N.Y. (AP) -- Any artist can paint cows. Nathan
>      Banks paints ON cows.
>
>      Banks, a 22-year-old student at Purchase College, painted
>      single words (from ``a'' to ``existential'') on the flanks
>      of about 60 cows near his upstate New York home, then let
>      them wander around to see if they could compose poetry.
>
>      So Holsteins and Jerseys named Elsie and Maggie came up
>      with phrases like ``eccentric art,'' ``performance as cow
>      environment'' and Banks' own favorite, ``organic conceptual
>      art as poetry.''
>
>      One animal seemed especially inspired -- with ``away''
>      written on her side, she broke loose from the herd for a
>      while.
>
>      The ``Cow Project,'' with videotape and photos of the
>      bovine bards, goes on display at the college Thursday.
>
>      ``The idea is that the artist sets up the situation and
>      then it carries through on its own,'' Banks said in an
>      interview last week at his tiny student's studio.
>
>      The entire three-day episode was documented by Banks and a
>      couple of dozen other students, who were bused up to
>      Delaware County, in the northern foothills of the
>      Catskills, for the mid-September happening.
>
>      ``It was peculiar,'' said Gerry Ruestow, who let Banks use
>      so-called ``tail paint'' -- a harmless substance that
>      eventually flakes off -- on his dairy herd in Sidney
>      Center. ``Those art people tend to do things that are a
>      little bit outside the box. We did get some people who
>      wandered by to see what the crazies up the road were
>      doing.''
>
>      Banks, a senior, said the project cost him about $1,000 and
>      he had to overcome a few obstacles. Half a dozen dairy
>      farmers turned him down before Ruestow and his wife Susan,
>      Banks' old music teacher, agreed to let him use their
>      Fermata Farm.
>
>      ``There was a big concern that the cows would be stressed
>      and give less milk,'' Banks said. Gerry Ruestow said milk
>      production actually went up a bit, ``probably because the
>      cows were a bit more active. The cows were as interested in
>      the observers as the observers were in the cows.''
>
>      Working around the milking schedule, Banks painted the
>      words in foot-tall blue and orange letters while the cows
>      were in their stalls. He wanted to put a word on each side
>      of every cow, but some of the animals were skittish about
>      it and ended up with just one word.
>
>      ``They're used to being milked from the same side all the
>      time and they didn't like being approached on the other
>      side,'' Banks said.
>
>      Then there were the necessary touchups. Some cows messed up
>      their words when they lay down, or swished their tail, or
>      got a little cow pie on them.
>
>      ``I'd repaint, right over the manure,'' Banks said.
>
>
>      Banks' previous performance art projects include living in
>      an elevator for 32 hours and imitating male-pattern
>      baldness by gradually shaving and thinning his hair.
>
>      He said he got the idea for the cow project when he read
>      about Dada artists dropping cut-up newspapers on the floor
>      to see what poetry was formed.
>
>      He picked most of the words with his eyes closed, taking
>      whatever word was closest when he put a finger down on a
>      page of an art history textbook. He added a few, like the
>      name of the farm and his old nickname, ``Nater,'' which he
>      uses to sign his works.
>
>      Now Banks is editing the videotape and arranging the
>      photographs for the exhibit. His art student schoolmates'
>      notations of the cow poetry are collected in four binders.
>
>      Visitors to the exhibit will be encouraged to make their
>      own cow poetry by taking a tiny cardboard cow, writing a
>      word on it and setting it down on the vibrating board from
>      an old electric football game so it can wander and interact
>      with other cows.
>
>      On opening night, there will also be refreshments, in the
>      form of cow-shaped cookies. And milk.
>
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From halvard  Wed Dec  4 11:04:38 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 11:04:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Carl Rakosi, "How to Be Discovered As a Great Bard"
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEMLFOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEMPFOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

How to Be Discovered As a Great Bard        (III from "The Medium")

Learn the grandiose manner
                                          and the unending Orphic line.

Idolize a master
and attach yourself to one tit (one is plenty).

Represent the weakness of the age.

Keep at it for forty years
                                      (preferably underground).

--Carl Rakosi
   
fr. *Ere-Voice*
[New York: New Directions, 1975]

Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard





From CobbCoStudioArts  Wed Dec  4 11:34:20 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 08:34:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cow Poets Online
Message-ID: <20021204163420.8ADD03C5C@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From jvcervantes  Wed Dec  4 14:33:38 2002
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 12:33:38 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cow Poets Online
References: <39.310c8e13.2b1d5515@cs.com> <004801c29b4c$4babdf50$0100a8c0@jross3> <3DEE2713.D481A563@localnet.com>
Message-ID: <3DEE5892.EB073FDD@earthlink.net>

Better yet, did they milk any of the poems.

- the other Jim

You wrote:

Did they print any of the poems ?  I'd like to read a few. 

ganesha wrote: 

     Brilliant!!  Thanks for posting this! Zan 

                     ----- Original Message -----
                     From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
                     To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
                     Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 8:30 AM
                     Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Cow Poets Online
                      Artist Hopes Dairy Herd Makes Poetry 

                     December 2, 2002 
                     By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS



From grahamd  Wed Dec  4 20:50:19 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 19:50:19 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Quincy Troupe resigns again
Message-ID: <200212050149.gB51n5QH025054@mx13.mx.voyager.net>

In a further development related to his falsified academic credentials,
Quincy Troupe has resigned his position on the faculty at UCSD:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2002/12/03/stat
e1605EST0078.DTL
========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
undergraduate education."
   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================




From halvard  Thu Dec  5 09:01:20 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:01:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Allen Ginsberg, "Death News"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEOHFOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Death News

      *Visit to W.C.W. circa 1957, poets Kerouac Corso Orlovsky
on sofa in living room inquired wise words, stricken Williams
pointed thru window curtained on Main Street, "There's a lot
of bastards out there!*

Walking at night on asphalt campus
road by the German Instructor with Glasses
W.C. Williams is dead he said in accent
under the trees in Benares; I stopped and asked
Williams is dead? Enthusiastic and wide-eyed
under the Big Dipper. Stood on the Porch
of the International House Annex bungalow
insects buzzing round the electric light
reading the Midical obituary in *Time*.
"out among the sparrows behind the shutters"
Williams is in the Big Dipper. He isn't dead
as the many pages of words arranged thrill
with his intonations the mouths of meek kids
becoming subtle even in Bengal. Thus
there's a life moving out of his pages; Blake
also "alive" thru his experienced machines.
Were his last words anything Black out there
in the carpeted bedroom of the gabled wood house
in Rutherford? Wonder what he said,
or was there anything left in realms of speech
after the stoke & brain-thrill doom entered
his thoughts? If I pray to his soul in Bardo Thodol
he may hear the unexpected vibration of foreign mercy.
Quietly unknow for three weeks; now I saw Passaic
and Ganges one, consenting his devotion,
because he walked on the steeley bank & prayed
to a Goddess in the river, that he only invented,
another Ganga-Ma. Riding on the old
rusty Holland submarine on the ground floor
Paterson Museum instead of a celestial crockodile.
Mourn O Ye Angels of the Left Wing! that the poet
of the streets is a skeleton under the pavement now
and there's no other old soul so kind and meek
and feminine jawed and him-eyed can see you
What you wanted to be among the bastards out there.

March 20, 1963

--Allen Ginsberg

fr. *Planet News: 1961-1967*
[San Francisco: City Lights, 1968]

Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard





From JforJames  Thu Dec  5 12:37:20 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 12:37:20 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Quincy Troupe resigns again
Message-ID: <105.21483b1d.2b20e8d0@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/4/02 8:49:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes:

> In a further development related to his falsified academic credentials,
>  Quincy Troupe has resigned his position on the faculty at UCSD:
>  
>  
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2002/12/03/stat
>  e1605EST0078.DTL
David, I guess it had to go this way...but it seems a sad thing to 
have happened. I believe by the time Troupe applied for the job at 
UCSD, he had more than enough publication credits, renown, and 
teaching experience to land the job, without having to pad his resume. 
I wish at this point, Grambling  would give him an honorary degree 
as a vote of support. 
Finnegan



From JforJames  Thu Dec  5 12:39:28 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 12:39:28 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dick Allen book
Message-ID: <c3.2cf0c67b.2b20e950@aol.com>

Sarabande Books Announces the April 2003 Publication of 
The Day Before
Poems By
Dick Allen

Allen's work ranges with ease from astronomy to politics to domestic 
situations; his poetry captures great swatches of real and imagined 
experience in nimble style.
    
                                Publishers Weekly

No matter how tactile and specific he is, Allen always retains a sense of the 
greater world. He writes about nature as an unceasingly active force, and he 
tracks the ripple effects of defining historical events from wars to the 
invention of the airplane, as though they were weather systems....[H]is 
pristine poems flow like timelines, drawing unexpected connections between 
happenings both major and minor, and observations both subtle and life 
changing. 

                                Booklist

Allen parlays memory, perception, and linguistic dexterity into a definitive 
style evolved over nearly thirty years of arduous making.  By turns ironic 
and acerbic, elliptical and intricately structured, his poems deftly exploit 
the notion of a retrievable past bodied forth in vivid, memorable language. 

                                Floyd Collins, West Branch

Dick Allen takes what we thought we knew for sure about the world and turns 
it inside outthe clich?s, the rules of thumb, the assumptions we gloss over 
and take for granted. We see the objects and events of everyday life in 
renewed, suddenly vivid terms, so that the songs, the kisses, the summers, 
the promises and lies, and the peopleall that weve lost and keep losingbegin 
to shine anew under Allens elegiac and celebratory attention. The poems in 
The Day Before are, as always in Allens work, passionate chronicles of 
contemporary America in transition to the new millennium, marked by the 
ebullience of high craft and formal virtuosity. But these new poems, a unique 
hybrid of lyric-narratives,  are remarkable for their added, personal 
gravity, their burnish of hard-won wisdom. And the miracle is how, in the 
face of our irrevocable losses as nation, species, and individuals, Allens 
poems come down on the side of life and joy. Some years Ive/Barely 
survived;//Others, I climbed around and shouted in,/Doing my best to live a 
praising life.
Dick Allen has received poetry writing fellowships from the National 
Endowment for the Arts, the Ingram Merrill Foundation, as well as the Robert 
Frost Prize for Poetry and The Hart Crane Poetry Prize. In addition to The 
Day Before: New Poems (Sarabande Books, 2003), his books include Ode to the 
Cold War: Poems New and Selected (Sarabande, 1997), Flight and Pursuit, 
Overnight in the Guest House of the Mystic (Louisiana State University 
Press), Regions With No Proper Names (St. Martins Press), and Anon and 
Various Time Machine Poems (Dell). His poems have been selected for The Best 
American Poetry volumes of 1991, 1994, 1998, and 1999. They appear in many of 
Americas leading journals, including Poetry, The Atlantic Monthly, The New 
Republic, The New Yorker, The Hudson Review, The Sewanee Review, The 
Massachusetts Review, The American Poetry Review, The Yale Review, The Kenyon 
Review, Boulevard, The Gettysburg Review, among others. He recently retired 
from his position as Charles A. Dana Endowed Chair Professor at the 
University of Bridgeport.

The Day Before is the fifty-fifth title to be published by Sarabande Books, a 
nonprofit literary press headquartered in Louisville, Kentucky. Founded in 
1994 to publish poetry and short fiction, Sarabandes mission is to disburse 
these works with diligence and integrity, and to serve as an educational 
resource to teachers and students of creative writing. Since the 1996 debut 
of the press, our titles have received positive review attention from 
nationally distinguished media including The New York Times Book Review, 
Publishers Weekly, Kirkus Reviews, American Book Review, Small Press, The 
Nation, and Library Journal.

This book was funded in part by a grant from the Kentucky Arts Council, a 
state agency of the Education, Arts and Humanities Cabinet.

Please visit our Website!   www.SarabandeBooks.org




From JforJames  Thu Dec  5 12:49:34 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 12:49:34 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Slope Editions, Book Award
Message-ID: <174.12f3d944.2b20ebae@aol.com>

Subj:    Book Award
Date:   12/4/02 4:20:45 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:   jlink at english.umass.edu (Jon F Link)

Please read and share the following announcement.


Slope Editions is now accepting submissions for our annual book prize, and
Ive included the guidelines below. Any questions can be directed to me at
molly at slope.org. It might also be helpful for applicants to refer to our
home page, slopeeditions.org. Last years winner was Jonah Winter, for his
book Maine, which will be coming out soon.

Thanks,
jonlink 

slope editions

if you would like to be included or removed from the Slope Editions
mailing list please email jonlink at hotmail.com with either "add" or
"remove" (which ever the case may be) in the subject line.


Judge: Dean Young
Author, First Course in Turbulence, Strike Anywhere and Skid

Deadline: March 15, 2003
$1,000 plus book publication

COMPLETE GUIDELINES

The winning poet will have his or her book of poems published in 2003 or
2004 by Slope Editions, a non-profit press that is applying for 501(c)(3)
status. S/he will receive a standard book contract, which includes
royalties, and $1,000. Last year's judge was David Lehman, who selected
Jonah Winter's Maine as winner. 

Eligibility: 

Any poet writing in English is eligible, unless that person has studied
with or is a close friend of the judge, in which case that person will be
ineligible to enter or win the contest. Age and previous book publication
are not considerations for eligibility. Poems published in print or
on-line periodicals, anthologies, or chapbooks may be included in the
manuscript, but the manuscript itself must be unpublished. Translations
are not eligible. 

Manuscript Format: 

Suggested length: 40 to 70 pages, single-spaced, paginated. The manuscript
must be typed (clear photocopies are acceptable) and bound only by a clip.
Include two title pages (one with book title, name, address, telephone and
email; one with book title only), table of contents, and acknowledgments
page with manuscript. The author's name should not appear anywhere but on
the first title page. Biographical information should not be included. 

Notification: 

Enclose SASE for notification of contest winner only. WE WILL NOT RETURN
MANUSCRIPTS, so don't send your only copy. Winner will be announced in May
2003. 

Simultaneous Submissions: 

Simultaneous submissions are acceptable, but an entrant must notify Slope
Editions if his or her manuscript is accepted elsewhere. 

Multiple Submissions: 

Submission of more than one manuscript is acceptable. Each manuscript must
be submitted separately, each with entry fee and SASE. 

Revisions: 

The winner will be able to revise the manuscript before publication. No
revisions will be considered during the reading period. 

Entry Fee: 

A $20 entry fee, payable to "Slope Publishing Inc.," in the form of a
check or money order, must accompany all submissions. Manuscripts will be
considered for future publication. Unpublished poems from all manuscripts
will be considered for inclusion in the online literary journal Slope
(www.slope.org). Selected poems by semi-finalists will be included in an
edition of Slope. 

Deadline: 

Submissions must be postmarked no later than March 15, 2003. No Federal
Express, UPS, or other overnight mail services. No fax or electronic
submissions. Submissions should be sent first-class mail to Slope
Editions, Second Annual Book Prize, 2350 Kensington Ave., Amherst, NY
14226.



From JforJames  Thu Dec  5 13:01:57 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 13:01:57 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Verse of Other Ungulates in the UK
Message-ID: <a.296c71fc.2b20ee95@aol.com>

The craze for grazing stanzas continues. NPR this morning
featured a similar story to those composing cows
in upstate NY, this time involving sheep.
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_719935.html?menu=news.quirkies



From halvard  Thu Dec  5 13:11:04 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 13:11:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Typo-free version: Allen Ginsberg, "Death News"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEOPFOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Apologies for the typos in this. They were mine (mea culpa,
mea culpa), not A.G.'s. But, as long as those freedom-hating
typos lurk in their caves in the mountains or wherever else
they choose to hide, we will hunt them down--one by one--
and bring them to justice. God bless the proofreaders.

======================================


Death News

      *Visit to W.C.W. circa 1957, poets Kerouac Corso Orlovsky
on sofa in living room inquired wise words, stricken Williams
pointed thru window curtained on Main Street, "There's a lot
of bastards out there!*

Walking at night on asphalt campus
road by the German Instructor with Glasses
W.C. Williams is dead he said in accent
under the trees in Benares; I stopped and asked
Williams is Dead? Enthusiastic and wide-eyed
under the Big Dipper. Stood on the Porch
of the International House Annex bungalow
insects buzzing round the electric light
reading the Medical obituary in *Time*.
"out among the sparrows behind the shutters"
Williams is in the Big Dipper. He isn't dead
as the many pages of words arranged thrill
with his intonations the mouths of meek kids
becoming subtle even in Bengal. Thus
there's a life moving out of his pages; Blake
also "alive" thru his experienced machines.
Were his last words anything Black out there
in the carpeted bedroom of the gabled wood house
in Rutherford? Wonder what he said,
or was there anything left in realms of speech
after the stoke & brain-thrill doom entered
his thoughts? If I pray to his soul in Bardo Thodol
he may hear the unexpected vibration of foreign mercy.
Quietly unknown for three weeks; now I saw Passaic
and Ganges one, consenting his devotion,
because he walked on the steeley bank & prayed
to a Goddess in the river, that he only invented,
another Ganga-Ma. Riding on the old
rusty Holland submarine on the ground floor
Paterson Museum instead of a celestial crockodile.
Mourn O Ye Angels of the Left Wing! that the poet
of the streets is a skeleton under the pavement now
and there's no other old soul so kind and meek
and feminine jawed and him-eyed can see you
What you wanted to be among the bastards out there.

March 20, 1963

--Allen Ginsberg

fr. *Planet News: 1961-1967*
[San Francisco: City Lights, 1968]

Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From JforJames  Thu Dec  5 13:12:06 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 13:12:06 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Also on Morning Edition, Caedmon Recordings at 50
Message-ID: <11.3d4e7ef.2b20f0f6@aol.com>

The article title is "NPR : Caedmon: Recreating the Moment of Inspiration" 
and can be found at 
http://www.npr.org/display_pages/features/feature_866406.html

The happy fortuity of how it was that Dylan Thomas came to record 
his "Child's Christmas in Wales" was enjoyable.
Finnegan



From cstroffo  Thu Dec  5 13:30:21 2002
From: cstroffo (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 10:30:21 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] QUESTION FOR OTHERS--- Allen Ginsberg, "Death News"
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEOHFOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3DEF9B3D.3738BE3C@earthlink.net>

Hey HAL---
this is the only poem I'm aware of that was written on the
day (year, etc.) I was born---
i was almost a bastard
(parents got married to prevent that---yippee)
and it is the equinox....
so easy to mythologize it for extrinsic reasons....

Anybody else have any particular poems that
were born on their birthday?

Chris


Halvard Johnson wrote:

> Death News
>
>       *Visit to W.C.W. circa 1957, poets Kerouac Corso Orlovsky
> on sofa in living room inquired wise words, stricken Williams
> pointed thru window curtained on Main Street, "There's a lot
> of bastards out there!*
>
> Walking at night on asphalt campus
> road by the German Instructor with Glasses
> W.C. Williams is dead he said in accent
> under the trees in Benares; I stopped and asked
> Williams is dead? Enthusiastic and wide-eyed
> under the Big Dipper. Stood on the Porch
> of the International House Annex bungalow
> insects buzzing round the electric light
> reading the Midical obituary in *Time*.
> "out among the sparrows behind the shutters"
> Williams is in the Big Dipper. He isn't dead
> as the many pages of words arranged thrill
> with his intonations the mouths of meek kids
> becoming subtle even in Bengal. Thus
> there's a life moving out of his pages; Blake
> also "alive" thru his experienced machines.
> Were his last words anything Black out there
> in the carpeted bedroom of the gabled wood house
> in Rutherford? Wonder what he said,
> or was there anything left in realms of speech
> after the stoke & brain-thrill doom entered
> his thoughts? If I pray to his soul in Bardo Thodol
> he may hear the unexpected vibration of foreign mercy.
> Quietly unknow for three weeks; now I saw Passaic
> and Ganges one, consenting his devotion,
> because he walked on the steeley bank & prayed
> to a Goddess in the river, that he only invented,
> another Ganga-Ma. Riding on the old
> rusty Holland submarine on the ground floor
> Paterson Museum instead of a celestial crockodile.
> Mourn O Ye Angels of the Left Wing! that the poet
> of the streets is a skeleton under the pavement now
> and there's no other old soul so kind and meek
> and feminine jawed and him-eyed can see you
> What you wanted to be among the bastards out there.
>
> March 20, 1963
>
> --Allen Ginsberg
>
> fr. *Planet News: 1961-1967*
> [San Francisco: City Lights, 1968]
>
> Hal
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From jvcervantes  Thu Dec  5 14:28:43 2002
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 12:28:43 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Verse of Other Ungulates in the UK
References: <a.296c71fc.2b20ee95@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3DEFA8EA.EC5474F6@earthlink.net>

Won't sheep follow just about anything?

- Jim

p.s. - let's not start taking sheep shots at ungulate versifiers

JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> 
> The craze for grazing stanzas continues. NPR this morning
> featured a similar story to those composing cows
> in upstate NY, this time involving sheep.
> http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_719935.html?menu=news.quirkies
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From CobbCoStudioArts  Thu Dec  5 17:46:45 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:46:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Verse of Other Ungulates in the UK
Message-ID: <20021205224646.1EFF34162@sitemail.everyone.net>

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URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20021205/1e34a88c/attachment.ksh>


From ccooley  Thu Dec  5 21:12:03 2002
From: ccooley (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 18:12:03 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy & art
In-Reply-To: <20021203170102.5C31F101C5@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <IFEJKAJEJBEOJGHBHOCHAEKCCCAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>

> From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
> Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 07:57:36 -0500
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] narrative vs lyric and empathy

> the apt uses of those skills and techniques that successfully create
> empathy in the reader is good art, while inept uses that do not
> succeed in creating empathy in the reader is bad art, in my view.

This is the same view I think that led Marcel Duchamp to the choice of the
Bottle Rack as a readymade.  Though I believe the Steel Comb is more
empathetic.





From halvard  Fri Dec  6 09:32:48 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 09:32:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Alice Fulton, "Fix"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEALFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Fix

There is no caring less
for you. I fix on music in the weeds,
count cricket beats to tell the temp, count
my breaths from here to Zen.
September does its best.
The Alaskan pipeline lacks integrity,
mineral fibers are making people dizzy,
we're waiting for a major quake. Ultra-
violet intensity is gaining,
the ozone's full of holes and

I can find no shade.
There is no caring less.
Without the moon the earth
would whirl us three times faster, gale-force
winds would push us down. Say
earth lost mass, a neighbor
star exploded--it's "if"

and "and" and
"but". The cosmos owns our luck.
Say under right and rare conditions,
space and time could oscillate.
I know what conditions
those would be for me.
I'd like to keep my distance,
my others, keep my rights reserved.
Yet look at you, intreasured,

where resolutions end.
No matter how we breathe
or count our breaths,
there is no caring less
for you for me. I have to stop myself

from writing "sovereign," praising
with the glory words I know.
Glaciologists say changes
in the mantle, the planet's vast
cold sheets could melt. Catastrophe
is everywhere, my presence
here is extra--yet--
there is no caring less.

--Alice Fulton

in *Felt* 
[New York: Norton, 2001]


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
 
 
 




From jnewberry1974  Fri Dec  6 09:51:19 2002
From: jnewberry1974 (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 06:51:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] QUESTION FOR OTHERS--- Allen Ginsberg, "Death News"
In-Reply-To: <3DEF9B3D.3738BE3C@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20021206145119.43586.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com>


Good question, Chris.  Any of you know how one can find out if a poem was written on his birthday?  Mine's 7/23/74.
 
Jeff Newberry
 Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino <cstroffo at earthlink.net> wrote:Hey HAL---
this is the only poem I'm aware of that was written on the
day (year, etc.) I was born---
i was almost a bastard
(parents got married to prevent that---yippee)
and it is the equinox....
so easy to mythologize it for extrinsic reasons....

Anybody else have any particular poems that
were born on their birthday?

Chris


Halvard Johnson wrote:

> Death News
>
> *Visit to W.C.W. circa 1957, poets Kerouac Corso Orlovsky
> on sofa in living room inquired wise words, stricken Williams
> pointed thru window curtained on Main Street, "There's a lot
> of bastards out there!*
>
> Walking at night on asphalt campus
> road by the German Instructor with Glasses
> W.C. Williams is dead he said in accent
> under the trees in Benares; I stopped and asked
> Williams is dead? Enthusiastic and wide-eyed
> under the Big Dipper. Stood on the Porch
> of the International House Annex bungalow
> insects buzzing round the electric light
> reading the Midical obituary in *Time*.
> "out among the sparrows behind the shutters"
> Williams is in the Big Dipper. He isn't dead
> as the many pages of words arranged thrill
> with his intonations the mouths of meek kids
> becoming subtle even in Bengal. Thus
> there's a life moving out of his pages; Blake
> also "alive" thru his experienced machines.
> Were his last words anything Black out there
> in the carpeted bedroom of the gabled wood house
> in Rutherford? Wonder what he said,
> or was there anything left in realms of speech
> after the stoke & brain-thrill doom entered
> his thoughts? If I pray to his soul in Bardo Thodol
> he may hear the unexpected vibration of foreign mercy.
> Quietly unknow for three weeks; now I saw Passaic
> and Ganges one, consenting his devotion,
> because he walked on the steeley bank & prayed
> to a Goddess in the river, that he only invented,
> another Ganga-Ma. Riding on the old
> rusty Holland submarine on the ground floor
> Paterson Museum instead of a celestial crockodile.
> Mourn O Ye Angels of the Left Wing! that the poet
> of the streets is a skeleton under the pavement now
> and there's no other old soul so kind and meek
> and feminine jawed and him-eyed can see you
> What you wanted to be among the bastards out there.
>
> March 20, 1963
>
> --Allen Ginsberg
>
> fr. *Planet News: 1961-1967*
> [San Francisco: City Lights, 1968]
>
> Hal
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From halvard  Fri Dec  6 09:48:29 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 09:48:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] QUESTION FOR OTHERS--- Allen Ginsberg, "Death News"
In-Reply-To: <20021206145119.43586.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEAMFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Well, I just tried Google for mine, Jeff. Typed in "September 10, 1936" and
the word "poem."
There were jonly a few hits, but one suggested that there *might* have been
a William
Saroyan poem born on my birthday. If so, it's in the William Saroyan boxes
at Stanford
somewhere.

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




  Good question, Chris.  Any of you know how one can find out if a poem was
written on his birthday?  Mine's 7/23/74.



  Jeff Newberry

   Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino <cstroffo at earthlink.net> wrote:

    Hey HAL---
    this is the only poem I'm aware of that was written on the
    day (year, etc.) I was born---
    i was almost a bastard
    (parents got married to prevent that---yippee)
    and it is the equinox....
    so easy to mythologize it for extrinsic reasons....

    Anybody else have any particular poems that
    were born on their birthday?

    Chris


    Halvard Johnson wrote:

    > Death News
    >
    > *Visit to W.C.W. circa 1957, poets Kerouac Corso Orlovsky
    > on sofa in living room inquired wise words, stricken Williams
    > pointed thru window curtained on Main Street, "There's a lot
    > of bastards out there!*
    >
    > Walking at night on asphalt campus
    > road by the German Instructor with Glasses
    > W.C. Williams is dead he said in accent
    > under the trees in Benares; I stopped and asked
    > Williams is dead? Enthu siastic and wide-eyed
    > under the Big Dipper. Stood on the Porch
    > of the International House Annex bungalow
    > insects buzzing round the electric light
    > reading the Midical obituary in *Time*.
    > "out among the sparrows behind the shutters"
    > Williams is in the Big Dipper. He isn't dead
    > as the many pages of words arranged thrill
    > with his intonations the mouths of meek kids
    > becoming subtle even in Bengal. Thus
    > there's a life moving out of his pages; Blake
    > also "alive" thru his experienced machines.
    > Were his last words anything Black out there
    > in the carpeted bedroom of the gabled wood house
    > in Rutherford? Wonder what he said,
    > or was there anything left in realms of speech
    > after the stoke & brain-thrill doom entered
    > his thoughts? If I pray to his soul in Bardo Thodol
    > he may hear the unexpected vibration of foreign mercy.
    > Quietly unknow for three weeks; now I saw Passaic
    > and Ganges one, consenting his devotion,
    > because he walked on the steeley bank & prayed
    > to a Goddess in the river, that he only invented,
    > another Ganga-Ma. Riding on the old
    > rusty Holland submarine on the ground floor
    > Paterson Museum instead of a celestial crockodile.
    > Mourn O Ye Angels of the Left Wing! that the poet
    > of the streets is a skeleton under the pavement now
    > and there's no other old soul so kind and meek
    > and feminine jawed and him-eyed can see you
    > What you wanted to be among the bastards out there.
    >
    > March 20, 1963
    >
    > --Allen Ginsberg
    >
    > fr. *Planet News: 1961-1967*
    > [San Francisco: City Lights, 1968]
    >
    > Hal
    >
    > Halvard Johnson
    > ===============
    > email: halvard at earthlink.net
    > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
    >
    > ______________ _________________________________
    > New-Poetry mailing list
    > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




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From halvard  Fri Dec  6 10:09:30 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 10:09:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] QUESTION FOR OTHERS--- Allen Ginsberg, "Death News"
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEAMFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEANFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

I might add that my search also came up with a link to a website
selling Nazi memorabilia, apparently because Goebbels made a speech
at the 8th party congress on my birthday. Hmm.

Hal
  -----Original Message-----
  From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu]On Behalf Of Halvard Johnson
  Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 9:48 AM
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] QUESTION FOR OTHERS--- Allen Ginsberg, "Death
News"


  Well, I just tried Google for mine, Jeff. Typed in "September 10, 1936"
and the word "poem."
  There were jonly a few hits, but one suggested that there *might* have
been a William
  Saroyan poem born on my birthday. If so, it's in the William Saroyan boxes
at Stanford
  somewhere.

  Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

  Halvard Johnson
  ===============
  email: halvard at earthlink.net
  website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




    Good question, Chris.  Any of you know how one can find out if a poem
was written on his birthday?  Mine's 7/23/74.


    Jeff Newberry

     Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino <cstroffo at earthlink.net> wrote:

      Hey HAL---
      this is the only poem I'm aware of that was written on the
      day (year, etc.) I was born---
      i was almost a bastard
      (parents got married to prevent that---yippee)
      and it is the equinox....
      so easy to mythologize it for extrinsic reasons....

      Anybody else have any particular poems that
      were born on their birthday?

      Chris


      Halvard Johnson wrote:

      > Death News
      >
      > *Visit to W.C.W. circa 1957, poets Kerouac Corso Orlovsky
      > on sofa in living room inquired wise words, stricken Williams
      > pointed thru window curtained on Main Street, "There's a lot
      > of bastards out there!*
      >
      > Walking at night on asphalt campus
      > road by the German Instructor with Glasses
      > W.C. Williams is dead he said in accent
      > under the trees in Benares; I stopped and asked
      > Williams is dead? Enthu siastic and wide-eyed
      > under the Big Dipper. Stood on the Porch
      > of the International House Annex bungalow
      > insects buzzing round the electric light
      > reading the Midical obituary in *Time*.
      > "out among the sparrows behind the shutters"
      > Williams is in the Big Dipper. He isn't dead
      > as the many pages of words arranged thrill
      > with his intonations the mouths of meek kids
      > becoming subtle even in Bengal. Thus
      > there's a life moving out of his pages; Blake
      > also "alive" thru his experienced machines.
      > Were his last words anything Black out there
      > in the carpeted bedroom of the gabled wood house
      > in Rutherford? Wonder what he said,
      > or was there anything left in realms of speech
      > after the stoke & brain-thrill doom entered
      > his thoughts? If I pray to his soul in Bardo Thodol
      > he may hear the unexpected vibration of foreign mercy.
      > Quietly unknow for three weeks; now I saw Passaic
      > and Ganges one, consenting his devotion,
      > because he walked on the steeley bank & prayed
      > to a Goddess in the river, that he only invented,
      > another Ganga-Ma. Riding on the old
      > rusty Holland submarine on the ground floor
      > Paterson Museum instead of a celestial crockodile.
      > Mourn O Ye Angels of the Left Wing! that the poet
      > of the streets is a skeleton under the pavement now
      > and there's no other old soul so kind and meek
      > and feminine jawed and him-eyed can see you
      > What you wanted to be among the bastards out there.
      >
      > March 20, 1963
      >
      > --Allen Ginsberg
      >
      > fr. *Planet News: 1961-1967*
      > [San Francisco: City Lights, 1968]
      >
      > Hal
      >
      > Halvard Johnson
      > ===============
      > email: halvard at earthlink.net
      > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
      >
      > ______________ _________________________________
      > New-Poetry mailing list
      > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
      > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

      _______________________________________________
      New-Poetry mailing list
      New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
      http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




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From halvard  Fri Dec  6 10:09:32 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 10:09:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] QUESTION FOR OTHERS--- Allen Ginsberg, "Death News"
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEAMFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEANFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Hmm. Dylan Thomas's second book of poems
(*Twenty-Five Poems*) was published on my
birthday (9/10/36).

Hal     "What does a poet need an unlisted
            number for?"
                     --George Costanza
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From grahamd  Fri Dec  6 10:47:24 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 09:47:24 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: QUESTION/birthday poems
Message-ID: <200212061547.gB6FlJF6011512@mx1.mx.voyager.net>

Let me recommend a unique anthology, *A Year in Poetry*, edited by Thomas E.
Foster & Elizabeth C. Guthrie.  (Crown 1995)  The book collects a poem for
each date on the yearly calendar--a poem that was either written on that
date, or refers to it.  The selections range through the centuries quite
satisfyingly, from Dante to Alicia Ostriker.

Jeff, the poem for July 23 is by Paul Blackburn--but dated three years
earlier than your birth, in 1971.  It's titled with the date, and the first
lines are:

     Young, dying yellow birch on Owego St.
          half-block from the IGA.

     fat black ants tool along beside me
     or troll across the sidewalks.  I am careful

Hal, September 10 is a poem by Ramon Guthrie with the rather Hal
Johnsonesque title "Death With Pants On."  No year specified.

Hey, I wonder if anyone here was actually born on September 1, 1939?  Put
THAT in Google and see what pops up. . . . 
========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
undergraduate education."
   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================


>
>Hmm. Dylan Thomas's second book of poems
>(*Twenty-Five Poems*) was published on my
>birthday (9/10/36).
>
>Hal     



From grahamd  Fri Dec  6 11:01:27 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 10:01:27 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birthday
Message-ID: <200212061601.gB6G1LlL057871@mx5.mx.voyager.net>

Hal, I've done some ego-surfing in my day, but I never thought to put in my
own birthdate.  Fascinating, in a self-absorbed sort of way.   Can't find
any poems actually composed on the date of my birth (much less the year),
but 2/28 does have important literary resonance.  Both Phyllis Wheatley and
Henry James seem to have died on my birthday.  *Tom Jones* was published,
some years before I was able to read.  Stephen Spender also shares my
birthday, and so does Montaigne.

My poem in *A Year in Poetry* is John Montague's "A Flowering Absence."  

Oh, and Mr. Ed the talking horse died on my birthday in 1979.
========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
undergraduate education."
   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================




From hruggier  Fri Dec  6 11:37:43 2002
From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 11:37:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cow Poets Online
References: <39.310c8e13.2b1d5515@cs.com> <004801c29b4c$4babdf50$0100a8c0@jross3> <3DEE2713.D481A563@localnet.com> <3DEE5892.EB073FDD@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3DF0D257.792F0CDA@localnet.com>

Now you know how we spend our time up here.

James Cervantes wrote:

> Better yet, did they milk any of the poems.
>
> - the other Jim
>
> You wrote:
>
> Did they print any of the poems ?  I'd like to read a few.
>
> ganesha wrote:
>
>      Brilliant!!  Thanks for posting this! Zan
>
>                      ----- Original Message -----
>                      From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
>                      To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>                      Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 8:30 AM
>                      Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Cow Poets Online
>                       Artist Hopes Dairy Herd Makes Poetry
>
>                      December 2, 2002
>                      By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From halvard  Fri Dec  6 11:22:38 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 11:22:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birthday
In-Reply-To: <200212061601.gB6G1LlL057871@mx5.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEAPFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

{    Oh, and Mr. Ed the talking horse died on my birthday in 1979.
{    ========================================

And not a moment too soon!

Hal         "Whatever you do, it has likely brought
               delight to fewer people than either
               contract bridge or the Red Sox."
                                   --Annie Dillard
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From halvard  Fri Dec  6 11:26:36 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 11:26:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cow Poets Online
In-Reply-To: <3DF0D257.792F0CDA@localnet.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEBAFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Gives a whole new sense to "writing bucolics".

Hal

{    Now you know how we spend our time up here.
{    
{    James Cervantes wrote:
{    
{    > Better yet, did they milk any of the poems.
{    >
{    > - the other Jim




From Thom424  Fri Dec  6 11:30:46 2002
From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 11:30:46 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cow Poets Online
Message-ID: <7b.3d30890.2b222ab6@aol.com>

Can't you just see the book-blurb for the anthology of cow poems that's sure 
to follow soon: 
            "Wonderfully moo-ving poems!"



Thom Tammaro
moorhead, MN



From FanwoodJEL  Fri Dec  6 12:56:14 2002
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 12:56:14 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birthday
Message-ID: <4DFBBDE1.77FB68B7.0B0E6811@aol.com>

Here's something. Every day NASA posts the *Astronomy Picture of the Day.* Today it's the Zimbabwe Solar Eclipse. (*The shy solar corona came out to play Wednesday as a total solar eclipse graced morning skies over southern Africa.*) Tomorrow, it's *Shadowy Saturn.* There's an archive. You can look up your birthday, or whatever.
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html

Maybe they'll rename a constellation for Mr. Ed. We could, you know, write them.

Jeffrey


In a message dated 12/6/2002 11:01:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes:

> 
> 
> Hal, I've done some ego-surfing in my day, but I never thought to put in my
> own birthdate.  Fascinating, in a self-absorbed sort of way.   Can't find
> any poems actually composed on the date of my birth (much less the year),
> but 2/28 does have important literary resonance.  Both Phyllis Wheatley and
> Henry James seem to have died on my birthday.  *Tom Jones* was published,
> some years before I was able to read.  Stephen Spender also shares my
> birthday, and so does Montaigne.
> 
> My poem in *A Year in Poetry* is John Montague's "A Flowering Absence."  
> 
> Oh, and Mr. Ed the talking horse died on my birthday in 
> 1979.
> ========================================
> David Graham
> Professor of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>   Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>   Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> 
> "We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
> undergraduate education."
>   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> =======================================
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 



From CobbCoStudioArts  Fri Dec  6 13:18:47 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 10:18:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birthday
Message-ID: <20021206181849.4965A3B3C@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From CobbCoStudioArts  Fri Dec  6 13:23:19 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 10:23:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cow Poets Online
Message-ID: <20021206182319.9F79D4831@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From bobgrumman  Fri Dec  6 16:08:26 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 16:08:26 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birthday
References: <20021206181849.4965A3B3C@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <007701c29d6b$9f1f8620$2bbdfea9@j1c1k6>

> David,
>
> We share the same month/day birthdays!  I don't know if this extends to
include the same year. (1941)
>
> Bob

He doesn't, Bob, but I not only share your year of birth but your month of
birth.  The good news is that I don't share your day of birth.  As you would
guess, I'm in the *rational* sign of Aquarius, not the sentimental sign of
Pisces like you and David.  (I'm 2/2/41.)

--Bob G.




From GrahamD  Fri Dec  6 18:30:04 2002
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 17:30:04 -0600 
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Birthday
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E87017@mail.ripon.edu>

> The good news is that I don't share your day of birth.  As you would
> guess, I'm in the *rational* sign of Aquarius, not the sentimental sign of
> Pisces like you and David. 
> 
> 
This is indeed good news, Bob.  Speaking of astrology, I have a book signed
long ago by Robert Bly.  After inquiring about my astrological sign, he
copied out a poem on the endpapers by Cesar Vallejo, fellow Piscean poet.
Plus a little drawing, presumably a sentimental one.  

That's not even my favorite signature by Robert Bly, however.  Back in those
days (this was in 1976 or so) we had a charming little Bly poem about
outhouses posted above the toilet roll in our bathroon.  (It's never
appeared in any of his books, that I know of, but was printed as a
postcard.)  

Anyway, I was delegated to drive him to a reading, and on the way we stopped
off at my apartment to conduct necessary business.  Later that day we
discovered that Bly had signed his outhouse poem while sitting on the pot.
How many could make the same claim, I wonder?

Here's where it gets really strange, though.  He signed with a felt tip pen
of some kind, and by the time we moved from that apartment, the signature
had entirely faded away.

============================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality:  personal, 
undergraduate education."
Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================




From CobbCoStudioArts  Fri Dec  6 18:53:27 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 15:53:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Birthday
Message-ID: <20021206235327.E9E644715@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From bobgrumman  Fri Dec  6 23:14:30 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 23:14:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Birthday
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E87017@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <001401c29da7$24915a00$2cbcfea9@j1c1k6>

> > The good news is that I don't share your day of birth.  As you would
> > guess, I'm in the *rational* sign of Aquarius, not the sentimental sign
of
> > Pisces like you and David.
> >
> >
> This is indeed good news, Bob.  Speaking of astrology, I have a book
signed
> long ago by Robert Bly.  After inquiring about my astrological sign, he
> copied out a poem on the endpapers by Cesar Vallejo, fellow Piscean poet.
> Plus a little drawing, presumably a sentimental one.
>
> That's not even my favorite signature by Robert Bly, however.  Back in
those
> days (this was in 1976 or so) we had a charming little Bly poem about
> outhouses posted above the toilet roll in our bathroon.  (It's never
> appeared in any of his books, that I know of, but was printed as a
> postcard.)
>
> Anyway, I was delegated to drive him to a reading, and on the way we
stopped
> off at my apartment to conduct necessary business.  Later that day we
> discovered that Bly had signed his outhouse poem while sitting on the pot.
> How many could make the same claim, I wonder?

> Here's where it gets really strange, though.  He signed with a felt tip
pen
> of some kind, and by the time we moved from that apartment, the signature
> had entirely faded away.
>
How Blyish!  And an interesting technique: consider a poem penned with a
variety of inks, each of which faded at a different rate so you could start
with a verbose poem that gradually faded to a more and more condensed
one--and then to fragments . . .

(Couldn't a police lab revive the signature?)

--Bob G.




From marcus  Sat Dec  7 08:32:23 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 08:32:23 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy & art
In-Reply-To: <IFEJKAJEJBEOJGHBHOCHAEKCCCAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>
References: <20021203170102.5C31F101C5@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <3DF1B217.5229.2C8841@localhost>

> > Marcus Bales:
> > the apt uses of those skills and techniques that successfully create
> > empathy in the reader is good art, while inept uses that do not
> > succeed in creating empathy in the reader is bad art, in my view.

Crisman Cooley: 
> This is the same view I think that led Marcel Duchamp to the choice of the
> Bottle Rack as a readymade.  Though I believe the Steel Comb is more
> empathetic.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here. 


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From bobgrumman  Sat Dec  7 08:51:39 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 08:51:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy & art
References: <20021203170102.5C31F101C5@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <3DF1B217.5229.2C8841@localhost>
Message-ID: <003901c29df7$c4cac060$5e07fea9@j1c1k6>

Just to cut in while the thought is in my head: I don't think empathy has
anything important to do with art.  All human (and animal) communication
tries for empathy.  Any communication that fails to get it is bad
communication, including poetry.  But judging a poem on whether it creates
empathy is
silly, it seems to me.  What a poem should try to do is use words to create
a pleasurable response, the greater, more sustained, and more complicatingly
ramifying the better.

--Bob G.



> > > Marcus Bales:
> > > the apt uses of those skills and techniques that successfully create
> > > empathy in the reader is good art, while inept uses that do not
> > > succeed in creating empathy in the reader is bad art, in my view.





From marcus  Sat Dec  7 12:45:55 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 12:45:55 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy & art
In-Reply-To: <003901c29df7$c4cac060$5e07fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <3DF1ED83.17297.C436C@localhost>

> Marcus Bales:
>the apt uses of those skills and techniques that successfully create
>empathy in the reader is good art, while inept uses that do not
>succeed in creating empathy in the reader is bad art, in my view.

Bob Grumman:
> Just to cut in while the thought is in my head: I don't think empathy has
> anything important to do with art.  All human (and animal) communication
> tries for empathy.  Any communication that fails to get it is bad
> communication, including poetry.  But judging a poem on whether it creates
> empathy is
> silly, it seems to me.  What a poem should try to do is use words to create
> a pleasurable response, the greater, more sustained, and more complicatingly
> ramifying the better.

Well it seemed to me at the time that "empathy" was being used to 
mean something like "create a pleasurable response, the greater, more 
sustained, and more complicatingly ramifying the better".  I don't 
think anyone is really disagreeing here on more than terminology, 
unless you're going to insist on "pleasurable" in the sense that it 
has to be only hedonistically pleasurable. After all, what is empathy 
but a sustained, great, and complicatingly ramifying response?  What 
could be more complicatingly ramifying, when you come right down to 
it, than empathy?

Marcus

 

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From grahamd  Sat Dec  7 12:51:15 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 11:51:15 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
Message-ID: <200212071751.gB7Hp8UY082170@mx7.mx.voyager.net>

About two weeks ago I made my annual plea for recommendations of the best
books of poetry we've discovered in the past year.  Response to this annual
request of mine is usually pitiful, truth be told--but never before has
there been *no* response whatever.  So I'm wondering, idly enough, whether
perhaps the gremlins ate my post.  Or did 2002 really suck as a year for new
poetry?
========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
undergraduate education."
   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================




From mcbyrne  Sat Dec  7 12:59:46 2002
From: mcbyrne (Mairead Byrne)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 12:59:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
Message-ID: <sdf1f0db.014@risd.edu>

Well David I think Gabriel Gudding's A Defense of Poetry (University of
Pittsburgh Press) is pretty damn good.  I also think my own Nelson & the
Huruburu Bird (Wild Honey Press) which may or may not make the 2002
deadline is pretty bloody damn good.  The fact that I am related to
these two poets has no bearing on my enthusiasm.
Mairead

>>> grahamd at ripon.edu 12/07/02 12:56 PM >>>
About two weeks ago I made my annual plea for recommendations of the
best
books of poetry we've discovered in the past year.  Response to this
annual
request of mine is usually pitiful, truth be told--but never before has
there been *no* response whatever.  So I'm wondering, idly enough,
whether
perhaps the gremlins ate my post.  Or did 2002 really suck as a year for
new
poetry?
========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
undergraduate education."
   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From mmagee  Sat Dec  7 13:05:20 2002
From: mmagee (Michael Magee)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 13:05:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
In-Reply-To: <sdf1f0db.014@risd.edu> from "Mairead Byrne" at Dec 7, 2002 12:59:46 pm
Message-ID: <200212071805.gB7I5K5V000323@dept.english.upenn.edu>

David, I think, for what it's worth that the best book of poetry this past
year was Heather Fuller's DOVECOTE.  To my mind it wins by a fiarly wide
margin, of course other people will have their opinions, and lord knows
that the world of big prizes is a parallel universe which has nothing to
do with vital poetry.  Others that mattered to me this past year or so,
Jennifer Moxley's THE SENSE RECORD, Dorothy Trujillo-Lusk's OGRESS OBLIGE,
Louis Cabri's THE MOOD EMBOSSER, Rodrigo Toscano's THE DISPARITIES, an 2
which are technically prose but which I include as poetry, Nathaniel
Mackey's ATET AD, and Carla Harryman's GARDNER OF STARS.  And, oh yeah,
Eugene Ostashevsky's THE OFF-CENTAUR.    -m.

 

 According to Mairead Byrne: > 
> Well David I think Gabriel Gudding's A Defense of Poetry (University of
> Pittsburgh Press) is pretty damn good.  I also think my own Nelson & the
> Huruburu Bird (Wild Honey Press) which may or may not make the 2002
> deadline is pretty bloody damn good.  The fact that I am related to
> these two poets has no bearing on my enthusiasm.
> Mairead
> 
> >>> grahamd at ripon.edu 12/07/02 12:56 PM >>>
> About two weeks ago I made my annual plea for recommendations of the
> best
> books of poetry we've discovered in the past year.  Response to this
> annual
> request of mine is usually pitiful, truth be told--but never before has
> there been *no* response whatever.  So I'm wondering, idly enough,
> whether
> perhaps the gremlins ate my post.  Or did 2002 really suck as a year for
> new
> poetry?
> ========================================
> David Graham
> Professor of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>    Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>    Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> 
> "We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
> undergraduate education."
>    Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> =======================================
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From halvard  Sat Dec  7 13:06:55 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 13:06:55 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
In-Reply-To: <200212071751.gB7Hp8UY082170@mx7.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIECNFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

{    About two weeks ago I made my annual plea for recommendations of the best
{    books of poetry we've discovered in the past year.  Response to this annual
{    request of mine is usually pitiful, truth be told--but never before has
{    there been *no* response whatever.  So I'm wondering, idly enough, whether
{    perhaps the gremlins ate my post.  Or did 2002 really suck as a year for new
{    poetry?
{    ========================================
{    David Graham

David, I gave up trying to "keep up" many years ago, maybe even before
I started trying to. My "new stuff" this year is by Holub, by Holan,
by Besmilr Brigham, by a bunch of others. No particular titles spring
to mind--except, perhaps, for *Run Through Rock* (Brigham, and I had
to get up to check that one), and *Vanishing Lung Syndrome*, which
I think would stick to almost anyone's tabula rasa. Now, what year did
you say you were interested in?

Hal         "Whatever you do, it has likely brought
               delight to fewer people than either
               contract bridge or the Red Sox."
                                   --Annie Dillard
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard    




From FanwoodJEL  Sat Dec  7 13:28:03 2002
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 13:28:03 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
Message-ID: <27.331d7e63.2b2397b3@aol.com>

David,

I like Matthew Zapruder's American Linden, which is just out (won our Tupelo 
Press editor's prize, so I'd better), and my mother thinks my own Mortal, 
Everlasting is the best book of poetry ever written. You could ask her. She's 
impartial.

Jeffrey Levine 



From reneea  Sat Dec  7 13:46:06 2002
From: reneea (Renee Ashley)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 13:46:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
References: <200212071751.gB7Hp8UY082170@mx7.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <00a501c29e20$e7f79620$379d598a@oemcomputer>

I've just discovered Julianna Baggott's This Country of Mothers.  It's one
of the best books I've read in *years*! (Southern Illinois Univ Press)
Renee
(Ashley)

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 12:51 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II


> About two weeks ago I made my annual plea for recommendations of the best
> books of poetry we've discovered in the past year.  Response to this
annual
> request of mine is usually pitiful, truth be told--but never before has
> there been *no* response whatever.  So I'm wondering, idly enough, whether
> perhaps the gremlins ate my post.  Or did 2002 really suck as a year for
new
> poetry?
> ========================================
> David Graham
> Professor of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>    Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>    Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>
> "We're writing the book on quality: personal,
> undergraduate education."
>    Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> =======================================
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From bobgrumman  Sat Dec  7 13:49:16 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 13:49:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy & art
References: <3DF1ED83.17297.C436C@localhost>
Message-ID: <006501c29e21$5873f920$5e07fea9@j1c1k6>

> > Marcus Bales:
> >the apt uses of those skills and techniques that successfully create
> >empathy in the reader is good art, while inept uses that do not
> >succeed in creating empathy in the reader is bad art, in my view.
>
> Bob Grumman:
> > Just to cut in while the thought is in my head: I don't think empathy
has
> > anything important to do with art.  All human (and animal) communication
> > tries for empathy.  Any communication that fails to get it is bad
> > communication, including poetry.  But judging a poem on whether it
creates
> > empathy is
> > silly, it seems to me.  What a poem should try to do is use words to
create
> > a pleasurable response, the greater, more sustained, and more
complicatingly
> > ramifying the better.
>
> Well it seemed to me at the time that "empathy" was being used to
> mean something like "create a pleasurable response, the greater, more
> sustained, and more complicatingly ramifying the better".

Probably so.

>I don't
> think anyone is really disagreeing here on more than terminology,
> unless you're going to insist on "pleasurable" in the sense that it
> has to be only hedonistically pleasurable.

I would insist on pleasurable in the sense of causing pleasure.  But that's
probably terminological, too, since I would argue that poems that some
people would say do not provide that
do.  A eulogy, say, that on the surface causes sorrow, ultimately--if
successful as a poem--causes more pleasure than pain.  (A sense of loss
overcome--in one way, by a triumphant translation into an artwork, and by
the beauties of that artwork.)

I'm not sure what "hedonistic" means, by the way.  It seems to me almost
entirely a propagandism meaning "pleasure I don't approve of" the way
"license" means "the liberty to do what I don't approve of."  I go along
with the idea that some pleasures are superior to others.  But a poem that
successfully expresses any pleasure is, for me, a success.

> After all, what is empathy
> but a sustained, great, and complicatingly ramifying response?

One thing it can be is a short-lived, tiny, unramifying response.  One can
empathize with a man who has lost a penny as well as with a man whose house
has burned down.

> What
> could be more complicatingly ramifying, when you come right down to
> it, than empathy?

>Marcus

I don't see empathy as complicatingly ramifying, a phrase I am using
(because I can't offhand think of a better one) to mean something that
connects to many things beyond itself in space and time--for instance, in
simple terms, a poem that becomes part of your outlook and response to life
for life--which will probably include empathy but need not.

What I'm trying to say is simply that a painting, say, that has a pretty
yellow in it, will be a success not because one identifies empathically with
whoever put that yellow in the painting but because the yellow is
aesthetically right there.

More than that I porbably can't say because it would involve my going into
the details of my theory of aesthetics, which is too involved for me to get
into here, and which would bore just about everybody here if I did, and were
coherent, which is unlikely.

--Bob G.





From bobgrumman  Sat Dec  7 13:59:19 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 13:59:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
References: <200212071751.gB7Hp8UY082170@mx7.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <006b01c29e22$bfb9d9a0$5e07fea9@j1c1k6>

> About two weeks ago I made my annual plea for recommendations of the best
> books of poetry we've discovered in the past year.  Response to this
annual
> request of mine is usually pitiful, truth be told--but never before has
> there been *no* response whatever.  So I'm wondering, idly enough, whether
> perhaps the gremlins ate my post.  Or did 2002 really suck as a year for
new
> poetry?

I saw the post and didn't respond because I really don't keep track of where
or when I read what, and am I rarely aware of the year any particular book
came out, and because I know that probably no one else at New Poetry has
read or is interested in my favorites.  In fact, I think that picking out
the best of any year in anything is stupid.  We should announce what is
excitingly good whenever it comes out--as you so often do, David.  Gee, it
now strikes me strange that, so far as I know, no grants bestower is
achronological.  I recognize that being chronological is much easier, but
wouldn't it be nice if some foundation spontaneously bestowed an award
whenever those running it came across something that was unusually
meritorious, even if it meant five awards in two weeks and/or no awards for
seven years?

--Bob G.





From bobgrumman  Sat Dec  7 14:01:41 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 14:01:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
References: <200212071805.gB7I5K5V000323@dept.english.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <007b01c29e23$1438b5a0$5e07fea9@j1c1k6>

> David, I think, for what it's worth that the best book of poetry this past
> year was Heather Fuller's DOVECOTE.

Excuse my crankiness, but surely you mean "the best book of poetry published
in 2002 that you've read?"  Or have you read all the poetry books that were
published this year?

--Bob G.




From grahamd  Sat Dec  7 14:28:18 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 13:28:18 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Best of 2002 II
Message-ID: <200212071928.gB7JSBwH038871@mx10.mx.voyager.net>

>David, I gave up trying to "keep up" many years ago, maybe even before
>I started trying to. My "new stuff" this year is by Holub, by Holan,
>by Besmilr Brigham, by a bunch of others. No particular titles spring
>to mind--except, perhaps, for *Run Through Rock* (Brigham, and I had
>to get up to check that one), and *Vanishing Lung Syndrome*, which
>I think would stick to almost anyone's tabula rasa. Now, what year did
>you say you were interested in?
>
>Hal     

Hal et al., I didn't mean this to be a quiz or anything.  Nobody can "keep
up," for whatever that's worth, even if they wanted to.  Just too many damn
books published each year.  I was just trolling for recommendations--most
any old year will do.   Thanks to those who have already responded.

For anyone mortally offended by my brazenly casual use of the words "Best"
and "2002," I hereby apologize.  

As it happens, I spend much of my time re-reading old favorites, too, and
going on little single author binges--in addition the reading I do for
teaching, and the refreshment of regular dipping into The Canon.  

This past year, let's see, there was my Neruda phase, my O'Hara infatuation,
my Lorca week, my Bunting weekend, my month of Kleinzahler, my summer of
Frank Gaspar and Robert Frost, my David Lehman insomnia nights, my Charles
Harper Webb escape, and my recent Ruth Stone addiction. . . .

My new discoveries this year included Wislawa Szymborska ( partly due to
your postings of her poems, Hal)-- finally got around to picking up her 1998
new & selected edition translated by Baranczak and Cavanagh.  Absolutely
splendid.  This past year I also caught up with Barbara Ras's *Bite Every
Sorrow* from 1998 and Judy Jordan's *Carolina Ghost Woods* from 2000.  



From halvard  Sat Dec  7 14:25:51 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 14:25:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP: Philip Berrigan (1923-2001)
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEDBFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

from Reuters--



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

December 7, 2002
U.S. Anti - War Activist Berrigan Dies at 79
By REUTERS


Filed at 10:33 a.m. ET

BALTIMORE (Reuters) - Philip Berrigan, a former priest who was at the forefront of the American anti-war movement for the past four
decades, died late Friday, the Baltimore Sun reported. He was 79.

Berrigan, died of liver and kidney cancer at Jonah House, a communal living facility for war resisters in the Baltimore suburb of
Catonsville, the newspaper reported on its Web site on Saturday.

The former Roman Catholic priest who was ordained in 1955, gained national prominence when he led a group of Vietnam War protesters
who become known as the Catonsville Nine, in staging one of the most dramatic protests of the 1960s.

The group, which included his brother Daniel, a Jesuit priest, doused homemade napalm on a small bonfire of draft records in a
Catonsville, Maryland, parking lot and ignited a generation of anti-war dissent. More recently he helped found the Plowshares
movement, whose members have attacked federal military property in anti-war and anti-nuclear protests and were then often
imprisoned.

In a final statement released by his family, he said, ``I die with the conviction, held since 1968 and Catonsville, that nuclear
weapons are the scourge of the earth; to mine for them, manufacture them, deploy them, use them, is a curse against God, the human
family, and the earth itself.''

Berrigan persistently and publicly criticized the Vietnam War and U.S. foreign and domestic policy and his defiant protests led him
to serve some 11 years in jail and prison.

Howard Zinn, professor emeritus at Boston University who maintained a friendship with Berrigan through the years because they had
similar views, called him ``one of the great Americans of our time,'' the Baltimore Sun said. ``He went to prison again and again
and again for his beliefs,'' said Zinn.

Berrigan saw his protests as ``prophetic acts'' based on the Biblical injunction to beat swords into plowshares.

In his most recent clash in December 1999, Berrigan and others banged on A-10 Warthog warplanes in an anti-war protest at an Air
National Guard base. He was convicted of malicious destruction of property and sentenced to 30 months. He was released on Dec. 14
last year.

His first arrest came in the early 1960's during a civil rights protest in Selma, Alabama.

Philip Francis Berrigan was born Oct. 5, 1923, in Two Harbors, Minnesota.




Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard






From roger  Sat Dec  7 16:12:59 2002
From: roger (Roger Greenwald)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 16:12:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] the year's discoveries
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.1.20021207155132.00b09a50@pop.chass.utoronto.ca>

David Graham wrote:

 >Hal et al., I didn't mean this to be a quiz or anything.  Nobody can "keep
up," for whatever that's worth, even if they wanted to.  Just too many damn
books published each year.  I was just trolling for recommendations--most
any old year will do.   Thanks to those who have already responded.

As someone who has joined the list less than twelve months ago,
I'd like to say I think it would be very useful to have a list
of people's "picks" at the end of each year (not of books published
only in that year, but of the books they "discovered" in that
year and found to be outstanding). I happen to think the
list would be more interesting if there were some limit
on the number of titles each person could submit (two? three?)
and if people would refrain from submitting their own books.
I'd certainly like to see books that are mainly or
wholly prose poems marked as such.

It is not possible for me to read every day's digest in its
entirety or to copy and paste the title of every recommended
book in every posting. But even if I could do these things,
there is value, I think, in asking people to reflect on which _few_
books have "stayed with them" after some time has passed.

It is very difficult to find a large number
of small-press books in any bookstore or library
(especially small-press books from publishers
in other countries--in Canada one sees almost no small-press
books from the US, UK or Australia; ask yourself how
many such books you see from countries other than the
one you live in). I am hoping the web can alleviate this
problem; once I have assembled a list from the year-end
poostings here, I will try to find (on line) at least a poem or two
by each recommended poet.

My own additions to the list:

Forrest Gander: TORN AWAKE
David St. John: THE RED LEAVES OF NIGHT
Yehuda Amichai: OPEN CLOSED OPEN, trans. Chana Bloch & Chana Kronfeld

By the way: copying and pasting to assemble a list will
be much easier if the authors and titles are not embedded
in paragraphs. (Yes, I know the founding fathers in their
prescience guaranteed everyone the inalienable right to
format e-mail according to his or her own preferences;
just a SUGGESTION--which sensible folks will follow, of course ;-) .)
_______

Roger Greenwald




From jvcervantes  Sat Dec  7 17:05:44 2002
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 15:05:44 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] the year's discoveries
References: <5.1.1.6.1.20021207155132.00b09a50@pop.chass.utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <3DF270B7.516E175B@earthlink.net>


Roger Greenwald wrote:
> 
>
> My own additions to the list:
> 
> Forrest Gander: TORN AWAKE
> David St. John: THE RED LEAVES OF NIGHT
> Yehuda Amichai: OPEN CLOSED OPEN, trans. Chana Bloch & Chana Kronfeld
>

Almost a "found" poem there:

Torn awake

the red leaves of night

open  closed open

(occasioned, of course, by taking a gander in the forest)

- Jim, with a head cold and therefore not responsible



From smith948  Sat Dec  7 18:54:49 2002
From: smith948 (ellen smith)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 18:54:49 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
In-Reply-To: <200212071751.gB7Hp8UY082170@mx7.mx.voyager.net>
References: <200212071751.gB7Hp8UY082170@mx7.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <a05100300ba183a8a7db4@[165.190.124.251]>

OK, David, how about Joy Katz's *Fabulae* and Rane Arroyo's *Home 
Movies of Narcissus*.  Harryette Mullen's *Sleeping w/the 
Dictionary,* too.
ellen s.
-- 



From jvcervantes  Sat Dec  7 17:22:33 2002
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 15:22:33 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
References: <200212071751.gB7Hp8UY082170@mx7.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <3DF274A8.4EE5F14A@earthlink.net>


David Graham wrote:
> 
> About two weeks ago I made my annual plea for recommendations of the best
> books of poetry we've discovered in the past year.  Response to this annual
> request of mine is usually pitiful, truth be told--but never before has
> there been *no* response whatever.  So I'm wondering, idly enough, whether
> perhaps the gremlins ate my post.  Or did 2002 really suck as a year for new
> poetry?

I *saved* that post.  Period.

Anyway, out of maybe two dozen books, Dara Wier's  _Hat On A Pond_ 
(Verse Press, 2001) sticks out.  Below is a poem from the book. - Jim

Feral Boy


The feral boy showed up everywhere
We went that day.  While we waited
For the woman who owns the tobacco
Shop to explain to her son why he's
Not allowed to sell tobacco products,
Too young, the feral boy slipped behind
Our backs and up & down the aisles of
Every kind of magazine in the world and
Was gone.  When we talked with the men
In the music store about a sound that makes
You feel as if the music is happily heading
In one direction while the musician is always
Dragging it back in some other direction, the
Feral boy sobbed a muffled whoa, and shuffled
Behind us to the back of the shop, up & down
The aisles of every kind of music and was gone.
When we stood on the sidewalk next to a burned
Wall saying, Looking for a Good Home for a
Goldfish, the feral boy tiptoed by, turned a
Corner into a single-file alleyway and was gone.
When we spoke with the jeweler over where and
In what sort of letters we'd have the baby's
Name etched on her silvercup, the feral boy
Hovered near around us around and around every kind
Of precious gem and metal in the world, looked
Past our shoulders, took note of the baby's
Name and was gone.  Later in the sandwich shop
While we talked with a neighbor about a recent trip
He'd made down Memory Lane, the feral boy
Stirred behind our backs and stopped briefly
To look into our hearts and was gone.


- Dara Wier, _Hat On A Pond_, Verse Press, 2001



From antrobin  Sat Dec  7 17:30:45 2002
From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 14:30:45 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
References: <200212071751.gB7Hp8UY082170@mx7.mx.voyager.net> <3DF274A8.4EE5F14A@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <005e01c29e40$4a33cec0$0cacefd8@0021936706>

My faves from the past year:

Cascadia, Brenda Hillman
Miss America, Catherine Wagner
Sleeping With the Dictionary, Harryette Mullen.

Tony

***
"The incredible never surprises us because it is the incredible."
Emily Dickinson

***
"I have obtained an aphrodisiac. It is made from the pockets of the Pocket
Fox, a rare animal that only existed for three weeks in the sixteenth
century."
C. Montgomery Burns

***
"The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous gap in poetry
which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but which would be
better left alone."
Kenneth Koch

***
...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us but yet its in
us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals.
Russell Hoban, "Riddley Walker"





From ccooley  Sat Dec  7 17:31:18 2002
From: ccooley (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 14:31:18 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: empathy & art
In-Reply-To: <20021207170102.86057101EA@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <IFEJKAJEJBEOJGHBHOCHCELACCAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>

> From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 08:32:23 -0500
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy & art
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
> > > Marcus Bales:
> > > the apt uses of those skills and techniques that successfully create
> > > empathy in the reader is good art, while inept uses that do not
> > > succeed in creating empathy in the reader is bad art, in my view.
>
> Crisman Cooley:
> > This is the same view I think that led Marcel Duchamp to the
> choice of the
> > Bottle Rack as a readymade.  Though I believe the Steel Comb is more
> > empathetic.
>
> Marcus Bales:
> I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here.

Marcus,
I was trying out your idea by choosing what I thought would be the most
extreme counter-example.  I like Alan Watts' notion that a thing and its
opposite are one.  That is why I felt at liberty to agree with you, while
proposing the antithesis of your idea.

Are you familiar with Marcel Duchamp?  He is considered the "Grand-Dada" of
20C art.  Pardon me if you know his work for this simplistic explanation:
During his life he chose maybe 8 or 9 manufactured objects and signed them,
making them--presto--into art objects.  He called them "readymades".  Two of
the items were a bottle-drying rack and a steel comb.  I was interested,
primarily, in trying out the idea that what MD was doing was presenting an
object to the art audience that would evoke the greatest empathy, in order
to be a "good artist" making "good art".  It is amusing to me to think of
manufactured objects as evocateurs of empathy.  This is also near the heart,
I think, of the Duchampian irony.  The readymades are limit cases in art,
since they displace the notion of artist as maker (of object and its
(thought or felt) meaning) and replace it with the idea of artist as chooser
and signer of prefabricated objects.  (There are "further vistas of irony"
in the "mystery" surrounding the choice of the Readymades.  John Cage (in
music) later also abdicated that choice too.)  Readymades appear at first
glance to be the death of art.  In fact, they can act as its revivification,
by placing the responsibility for meaning creation in hands and the mind of
the observer.  This is true in the case also of a poem that creates empathy
in an observer.  The poem does not contain the meaning or the empathy; these
exist, if at all, in the mind of the observer.  This is the "role of the
reader", as Umberto Eco calls it.

I am very sorry (or perhaps excited at the opportunity present) that I have
found nothing in my investigation of contemporary poetry that matches the
power of the Readymades to destroy art so that art might continue to live.
(I wonder if poetry has missed out its opportunity to embrace Dadaism.  And
I am open to enlightenment.)

Crisman





From smith948  Sat Dec  7 19:50:26 2002
From: smith948 (ellen smith)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 19:50:26 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: empathy & art
In-Reply-To: <IFEJKAJEJBEOJGHBHOCHCELACCAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>
References: <IFEJKAJEJBEOJGHBHOCHCELACCAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>
Message-ID: <a05100304ba18460a3193@[165.190.124.251]>

Crisman:  Having received, recently, 35 reading journals from 
undergraduates who were to apply various improvisation reading 
strategies to Harryette Mullen's extremely daunting book-length poem 
*Muse and Drudge*, I would say that much experimental poetry can 
elicit the shifting of responsibility that the Readymades did.  Since 
much of what Mullen does is in the manner of Readymades (Like WCW and 
Moore, weaving snippets of others' words/phrases into her own text, 
even the most trite commonplaces, which take on new life through 
context or wordplay), it can elicit in readers the creative impulse 
(which, in effect, does cause "art" to resurrect in readers' hands 
after being "killed").  What I'm not sure about is where empathy fits 
in...unless you mean that, by being forced into the producer position 
(rather than the passive consumer position), the reader might 
empathetically come to know the producer position?  Of course, you 
can expect to hear a host of "slippery slope" type counterarguments 
to your claim, such as, where do you draw the line?  Can't a mold 
stain on the wall also call forth an active, creative response from 
its viewer?  But, of course, that was also what DuC was calling forth 
through his readymades?  A mad scramble on the part of viewers to try 
to articulate what they thought art would,could, should be?
ellen s.

>  > From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
>>  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>  Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 08:32:23 -0500
>>  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy & art
>>  Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>
>>  > > Marcus Bales:
>>  > > the apt uses of those skills and techniques that successfully create
>>  > > empathy in the reader is good art, while inept uses that do not
>>  > > succeed in creating empathy in the reader is bad art, in my view.
>>
>>  Crisman Cooley:
>>  > This is the same view I think that led Marcel Duchamp to the
>>  choice of the
>>  > Bottle Rack as a readymade.  Though I believe the Steel Comb is more
>>  > empathetic.
>>
>>  Marcus Bales:
>>  I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here.
>
>Marcus,
>I was trying out your idea by choosing what I thought would be the most
>extreme counter-example.  I like Alan Watts' notion that a thing and its
>opposite are one.  That is why I felt at liberty to agree with you, while
>proposing the antithesis of your idea.
>
>Are you familiar with Marcel Duchamp?  He is considered the "Grand-Dada" of
>20C art.  Pardon me if you know his work for this simplistic explanation:
>During his life he chose maybe 8 or 9 manufactured objects and signed them,
>making them--presto--into art objects.  He called them "readymades".  Two of
>the items were a bottle-drying rack and a steel comb.  I was interested,
>primarily, in trying out the idea that what MD was doing was presenting an
>object to the art audience that would evoke the greatest empathy, in order
>to be a "good artist" making "good art".  It is amusing to me to think of
>manufactured objects as evocateurs of empathy.  This is also near the heart,
>I think, of the Duchampian irony.  The readymades are limit cases in art,
>since they displace the notion of artist as maker (of object and its
>(thought or felt) meaning) and replace it with the idea of artist as chooser
>and signer of prefabricated objects.  (There are "further vistas of irony"
>in the "mystery" surrounding the choice of the Readymades.  John Cage (in
>music) later also abdicated that choice too.)  Readymades appear at first
>glance to be the death of art.  In fact, they can act as its revivification,
>by placing the responsibility for meaning creation in hands and the mind of
>the observer.  This is true in the case also of a poem that creates empathy
>in an observer.  The poem does not contain the meaning or the empathy; these
>exist, if at all, in the mind of the observer.  This is the "role of the
>reader", as Umberto Eco calls it.
>
>I am very sorry (or perhaps excited at the opportunity present) that I have
>found nothing in my investigation of contemporary poetry that matches the
>power of the Readymades to destroy art so that art might continue to live.
>(I wonder if poetry has missed out its opportunity to embrace Dadaism.  And
>I am open to enlightenment.)
>
>Crisman
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


-- 



From smith948  Sat Dec  7 19:55:21 2002
From: smith948 (ellen smith)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 19:55:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] the year's discoveries
In-Reply-To: <3DF270B7.516E175B@earthlink.net>
References: <5.1.1.6.1.20021207155132.00b09a50@pop.chass.utoronto.ca>
 <3DF270B7.516E175B@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <a05100305ba184879c3de@[165.190.124.251]>

Jim:  Do take responsibility, then thank the authors of the titles 
and of course David who elicited the list.  I found it moving.  It 
made a ping in my chest. 	I think you may have begun a new 
sub-genre here.  And I am not being facetious.
ellen s.
Give yourself and your collaborators a nice Nyquil toast!

>Roger Greenwald wrote:
>>
>>
>>  My own additions to the list:
>>
>>  Forrest Gander: TORN AWAKE
>>  David St. John: THE RED LEAVES OF NIGHT
>>  Yehuda Amichai: OPEN CLOSED OPEN, trans. Chana Bloch & Chana Kronfeld
>>
>
>Almost a "found" poem there:
>
>Torn awake
>
>the red leaves of night
>
>open  closed open
>
>(occasioned, of course, by taking a gander in the forest)
>
>- Jim, with a head cold and therefore not responsible
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


-- 



From poemlady  Sat Dec  7 20:53:45 2002
From: poemlady (Audrey Friedman)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 20:53:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
References: <200212071751.gB7Hp8UY082170@mx7.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <1d4201c29e5c$a4d445f0$4fc30944@Zoom>

The best book of poetry I've discovered this year is "The Hour Between Dog
and Wolf," by Laure-Anne Bosselaar.  The book was published in 1997.
Audrey





From bardo  Sun Dec  8 08:47:58 2002
From: bardo (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 08:47:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
References: <27.331d7e63.2b2397b3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00c301c29ec0$6b30b9a0$ec59bd18@MULDER>

Has anyone seen my _Post-Avant_, out this year from Pavement Saw?

http://www.pavementsaw.org/postavant.htm

Dan Zimmerman

----- Original Message -----
From: <FanwoodJEL at aol.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II


> David,
>
> I like Matthew Zapruder's American Linden, which is just out (won our
Tupelo
> Press editor's prize, so I'd better), and my mother thinks my own Mortal,
> Everlasting is the best book of poetry ever written. You could ask her.
She's
> impartial.
>
> Jeffrey Levine
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>





From marcus  Sun Dec  8 08:57:22 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 08:57:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: empathy & art
In-Reply-To: <IFEJKAJEJBEOJGHBHOCHCELACCAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>
References: <20021207170102.86057101EA@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <3DF30972.25951.1BEFC5@localhost>

> > > > Marcus Bales:
> > > > the apt uses of those skills and techniques that successfully create
> > > > empathy in the reader is good art, while inept uses that do not
> > > > succeed in creating empathy in the reader is bad art, in my view.
> >
> > Crisman Cooley:
> > > This is the same view I think that led Marcel Duchamp to the
> > choice of the
> > > Bottle Rack as a readymade.  Though I believe the Steel Comb is more
> > > empathetic.
> >
> > Marcus Bales:
> > I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here.
> 
Crisman Cooley:
> I was trying out your idea by choosing what I thought would be the most
> extreme counter-example.  I like Alan Watts' notion that a thing and its
> opposite are one.  That is why I felt at liberty to agree with you, while
> proposing the antithesis of your idea.

I was afraid you were going to say that.

Crisman Cooley: 
> ... (There are "further vistas of irony"
> in the "mystery" surrounding the choice of the Readymades.  John Cage (in
> music) later also abdicated that choice too.)  Readymades appear at first
> glance to be the death of art.  In fact, they can act as its revivification,
> by placing the responsibility for meaning creation in hands and the mind of
> the observer....<<

Well, I disagree fundamentally with the entire notion that by signing 
something "as an artist" one has made it into art. That looks 
perilously close, to me, to the great western civilization notion of 
"discovery": steal whatever you please, so long as you claim you've 
discovered it instead of stolen it.  A friend of mine says, whenever 
someone mentions that Columbus discovered America "I see a fine-
looking Cadillac over there.  I think I'll go discover it." To sign a 
bottle rack or a comb and claim it's thereby made into art is merely 
theft, not art.

Crisman Cooley:
> This is true in the case also of a poem that creates empathy
> in an observer.  The poem does not contain the meaning or the empathy; these
> exist, if at all, in the mind of the observer. <

This is silly.  Without the poem there can be nothing for the reader 
to read; nothing out of which to create art.  If you seriously hold 
that the art is only in the mind of the observer then everything is 
art: rape, murder, terrorism, the Grand Canyon, Niagra Falls, cloud 
formations, white noise, deep space, and silence.  Where there can be 
no useful distinction made between art and non-art there can be no 
art at all.  Holding that anything is art if a claimant says it is is 
a declaration that there is no art at all -- except perhaps the art 
of the scam or the con. And then the distinction between "good art" 
and "bad art" becomes merely a matter of salesmanship.  Good art is 
whatever the "market" will "buy" -- even if the medium of exchange is 
praise and reputation instead of money.

Crisman Cooley:
> I am very sorry (or perhaps excited at the opportunity present) that I have
> found nothing in my investigation of contemporary poetry that matches the
> power of the Readymades to destroy art so that art might continue to live.<

Well, fortunately for you, then, I happen to have right here to hand 
the very thing you seek.  Below is one of thousands of poems I've 
written, called "Quotations", to my prospective clients.  I hope 
you're a prominent editor of a prominent literary magazine so that 
you can take this opportunity to con your audience into accepting 
"Marcus Bales" as synonymous with "Marcel Duchamp" as a creator of 
readymades.  Thank you in advance.

Bales&Price, Inc.
Designer Glass, Wood, Polymers & Metal
540 E. 105th Street  Cleveland, Ohio  44108
Phone: (216) 268-5520  Facsimile: (216) 268-5540
website: http://www.designerglass.com
email: marcus at designerglass.com

SUMMARY QUOTATION 98-1005 
Rectangle, Diamond, and Gothic designs
SGO 1/2" Lead Rectangles and Gothic;
1/4" Lead Diamonds & borders
Pane		No of							
No.		Panes Description and size and design			Price

1-3		3 Basement Doors 18-5/8x78-7/8 RECT			  229
4-9		6 Basement Panels 19-1/4x47-1/4 RECT		  460
10,11		2 Library Panels 19-1/4x35-1/4 DIAM w/ medallions	  785
12,13		2 Front Entry Panels 15-1/4x47-1/4 DIAM 		  235
14,19		2 DR Transoms 11-1/4x29-1/4 RECT			  120
15,20		2 DR Windows 11-1/4x67-1/4 RECT			  150
16		3 DR Transoms 17-1/4x29-1/4 RECT			  120
17,18		3 DR Windows 17-1/4x67-1/4 RECT w/ medallions	1230
21		3 Kitchen Transoms 19-1/4x19-1/4 DIAM		    98
22,23		3 Kitchen Windows 19-1/4x35-1/4 DIAM			  179
24		1 Bathroom Window 19-1/4x29-1/4 DIAM		    49
25,26		2 Garage Windows 19-1/4x47-1/4 DIAM			  138
27,28		2 Garage Windows 19-1/4x41-1/4 DIAM			  158
29		2 Laundry Transoms 23-1/4x11-1/4 RECT		  120
30,31		2 Laundry Windows 23-1/4x29-1/4 RECT		  140
32,35,38	6 Eating Area Transoms 23-1/4x11-1/4 RECT		  132
33,34,36,37
  39,40		6 Eating Area Windows 23-1/4x47-1/4 RECT		  475
41		1 Hearth Room Door 24-5/8x78-7/8 RECT		  109
42,44		5 Hearth Room Transoms 29-1/4x11-1/4 RECT		  140
43,45		5 Hearth Room Windows 29-1/4x47-1/4 RECT		  495
46,47		2 Den Room Windows 23-1/4x53-1/4 RECT		  170
48,49		6 Den Room Windows 19-1/4x29-1/4 RECT		  295
50		1 Den Bath Window 19-1/4x29-1/4 RECT, w/ medallion	  350
51,54		2 Library Sidelights 19-1/4x67-1/4 RECT		  180
52,53		2 Library Doorlights 25-3/4x66-3/16 RECT, w/ medallion	  860
55,56		2 Window Seat Windows 11-1/4x41-1/4 DIAM		  190
57,58		3 Closet Windows 19-1/4x19-1/4 DIAM			  150
59		1 Master Bath Toilet Window 19-1/4x19-1/4 DIAM	    49
60,61		6 M Bath Windows 23-1/4x35-1/4 DIAM			  450
62,63		2 M BR Windows 19-1/4x29-1/4 DIAM, w/medallion	  885
64,65		2 M BR Doors 37-3/4x66-3/16 RECT			  208
66,67		2 West Guest BR 23-1/4x53-1/4 RECT			  118
68,69		2 South Guest BR 19-1/4x41-1/4 DIAM			  158
GOTHIC	1 Single arched window, gothic arch, w/tri-foils & pts	  785
GOTHIC	3 arched windows, gothic arch				  885
		3 Rectangle windows					  650
Total									11,995.00
Sketch Deposit paid							(    500.00)
Balance								11,445.00

Terms:  60% on approval of art; balance on delivery.  Please circle 
the options required, initial the circles, sign and date below, and 
return one signed copy with your deposit.  Please keep one copy for 
your records.

_________________________________		_____________
Accepted						Date


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From CobbCoStudioArts  Sun Dec  8 08:52:25 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 05:52:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
Message-ID: <20021208135225.8E37C11E4B@sitemail.everyone.net>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20021208/96b023a6/attachment.ksh>


From marcus  Sun Dec  8 09:32:25 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 09:32:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy & art
In-Reply-To: <006501c29e21$5873f920$5e07fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <3DF311A9.11265.3C09D1@localhost>

> > Marcus Bales:
> > Well it seemed to me at the time that "empathy" was being used to
> > mean something like "create a pleasurable response, the greater, more
> > sustained, and more complicatingly ramifying the better".

Bob Grumman: 
> Probably so.

Then it seems as if we agree -- except that you go on thereafter at 
some length apparently seeking a disagreement.
 
Marcus Bales:
> >I don't
> > think anyone is really disagreeing here on more than terminology,
> > unless you're going to insist on "pleasurable" in the sense that it
> > has to be only hedonistically pleasurable.

Bob Grumman: 
> I would insist on pleasurable in the sense of causing pleasure.  But that's
> probably terminological, too, since I would argue that poems that some
> people would say do not provide that
> do.  A eulogy, say, that on the surface causes sorrow, ultimately--if
> successful as a poem--causes more pleasure than pain.  (A sense of loss
> overcome--in one way, by a triumphant translation into an artwork, and by
> the beauties of that artwork.)

Well, this is like "poetry is as good as it prompts action" -- the 
question remains, "how much action, what kind of action, how soon?" 
and the like.  If an eulogy causes pain to the widow but pleasure to 
the deceased fellow's enemies, do you count that a successful poem or 
not?

Bob Grumman: 
> I'm not sure what "hedonistic" means, by the way.  It seems to me almost
> entirely a propagandism meaning "pleasure I don't approve of" the way
> "license" means "the liberty to do what I don't approve of."  I go along
> with the idea that some pleasures are superior to others.  But a poem that
> successfully expresses any pleasure is, for me, a success.

I meant "hedonistic pleasure" in the sense of "pleasure there is no 
denying as pleasure", as, for example, eating when hungry, drinking 
when thirsty, having sex when aroused, and the like: unequivocal 
pleasures, as opposed to the equivocal pleasures of art.
 
Marcus Bales;
> > After all, what is empathy
> > but a sustained, great, and complicatingly ramifying response?

Bob Grumman: 
> One thing it can be is a short-lived, tiny, unramifying response.  One can
> empathize with a man who has lost a penny as well as with a man whose house
> has burned down.<<

Context is all in this case; the widow who adds her mite to the 
offering, and the man who loses his very last penny may be people 
with whom we empathize, but not in an "short-lived, tiny, unramifying 
response".  With an ordinary fellow who loses a penny we are not 
likely to empathize, Bob -- or even sympathize -- unless it is a 
penny worth a good deal more than a penny.

Bob Grumman:
> I don't see empathy as complicatingly ramifying, a phrase I am using
> (because I can't offhand think of a better one) to mean something that
> connects to many things beyond itself in space and time--for instance, in
> simple terms, a poem that becomes part of your outlook and response to life
> for life--which will probably include empathy but need not.<<

It seems to me that one must indeed empathize in order to see the 
connections beyond a thing into space and time.  It is precisely 
those things, or events, or people, who guide us to see those 
connections with which or with whom we empathize -- that's what 
empathy *means*, it seems to me.  You seem to have some private 
definition of "empathy" that makes the use of the word to mean "a 
sustained, great, and complicatingly ramifying response" or 
"something that connects to many things beyond itself in space and 
time" anathema to you.

Bob Grumman:
> More than that I porbably can't say because it would involve my going into
> the details of my theory of aesthetics, which is too involved for me to get
> into here, and which would bore just about everybody here if I did, and were
> coherent, which is unlikely.

Ah -- the predictable "I know way more about this than I'm willing to 
say" ploy from Bob Grumman!  How ... predictable. 



Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From halvard  Sun Dec  8 09:43:52 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 09:43:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Robert Hershon, "How to Ride on the Woodlawn Express"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEEEDFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

There's a piece by Siri Hustvedt in this morning's NYT that reminded
me of Bob Hershon's poem just below (followed by Hustvedt's piece).


How to Ride on the Woodlawn Express

Early in the 13th century, experts from the emperor's court formulated
the basic rules of etiquette for the New York subway system. You may
eavesdrop, they said, but you may never laugh or cry. You may play
the radio very loud but you may not hum in someone's ear. You may
read the National Inquirer over that lady's shoulder, but you may not
ask her not to turn the page yet. You may not look into the eyes of the
gods. You may not throw up. You may not sit next to the beautiful
stranger.

You may not speak to anyone unless there is a fire in the tunnel and it's
lasted half an hour or he is gasping for air and clutching his chest and he
is dressed neatly or he is your uncle or he is returning your wallet almost
intact or he is reading a book you wrote or his hand is on your ass or he
is your reflection.

Here is an old mill by a stream. There is a house with a thatched roof,
a young woman feeds her geese, a young man fingers his lute, but the
painting is upside down. It is going to the Bronx on the Woodlawn
Road express, a huge painting held by two people so small just their
hands are visible at the top of the frame. A man is twisting his head
around, trying to see the painting, trying to make it come right side up.
I am watching him. A man near the door is watching me. There is a
certain pleasure. Many subway rules are being broken: can you
identify them? If so, get off here. We are riding to the countryside,
huddled around some other tribe's tribal memory of springtime in
Sussex, some of the sheep painted with blue numbers, some with red.
What does this mean? Which do we prefer? Do we like it? 25 cows
are facing north, 25 cows are facing south. Do we have an opinion?

Should we play by the rules? A thousand Norman archers shot their
arrows and waited for the Saxon archers to shoot them back, but
the Saxons hadn't brought any archers so they didn't shoot the arrows
back and the Normans had no more arrows to shoot. This was a
clear violation of the etiquette of war and league officials made the
Saxons give up England at once. Now they're very sorry they didn't
bring their archers. They burn with shame and regret, dumb fucken
Saxons. They burn with shame and regret and try to tell strangers
about it, but no one will listen to them and everybody has to get
off here.

--Robert Hershon

fr. *How to Ride on the Woodlawn Express*

[New York: Sun, 1985]


December 8, 2002
Look Away: The Unwritten Law of Survival in the Teeming City
By SIRI HUSTVEDT


In rural Minnesota, where I grew up, it was the custom to greet everyone you met on the road, whether you knew the person or not,
with a "hi." A muttered, uninflected "hi" was entirely acceptable, but the word had to be spoken. Passing someone in silence wasn't
only rude, it could also lead to accusations of snobbery, the worst possible sin in my small corner of the equalitarian state.

When I moved to New York in 1978, I discovered what it meant to live among hordes of strangers and how impractical and unsound it
would be to greet all of them. Within days, I absorbed the unwritten code of survival in this town, a convention communicated
silently but forcefully. This simple law, one nearly every New Yorker subscribes to whenever possible, is: pretend it isn't
happening.

This widely applied coping technique is what separates New Yorkers from tourists, and seasoned citizens from those who have just
come here. An Iranian friend told me that about a week after he arrived in the city, he was traveling uptown on the Second Avenue
bus. At 24th Street, the door opened for a woman who was wearing nothing but a flimsy bathrobe over her naked body. When she reached
the top step, she started feeling her pockets for something, and then, with a shocked look on her face, exclaimed: "My token! My
token! Oh, my God, I must have left it in the other bathrobe!"

The driver sighed and waved her onto the bus. My friend had been staring at the woman, but was a little ashamed when he realized
that nobody else had given the woman a first glance, much less a second.

In October of last year, I was on the F train when I noticed a wild-eyed man enter the car. He boomed out a few verses from
Revelations, and then, in an equally loud voice, began his sermon, informing us that Sept. 11 had been God's just punishment for our
sins. I could feel the cold, stiff resistance to his words among the passengers, but not a single one of us turned to look at him.

A couple of weeks ago, after seeing a play at the Brooklyn Academy of Music, my husband and I walked down the stairs at the Atlantic
Avenue Station to wait for the No. 2 train. I wanted to sit and noticed a single bench with several empty seats. At the end of that
bench sat a man with five or six plastic bags, and although he was perhaps 20 yards away, I did sense that he might be someone to
avoid because even at that distance he gave off an aura of silent hostility.

Nevertheless, fortified by the presence of my husband, I led the way to the bench. We seated ourselves at its far end, leaving four
empty seats between us and the man. After a minute, he gathered up his bags, shuffled past us and spit in our direction. His aim
wasn't good, but when I looked down, I saw a gleaming microdot of saliva on the knee of my pants. We let it go.

These three stories ? the bathrobe lady, the fanatical preacher and the spitter ? show a range of increasing- ly outrageous behavior
that may be dealt with through the pretend-it-isn't-happening law. And yet, as my husband pointed out, in the case of the spitter,
had there been more saliva on me, he would have felt forced to act. And acting, as everyone in the city knows, can be dangerous. It
is usually better to treat the unpredictable among us as ghosts, wandering phantoms who play out their lonely narratives for an
audience that appears to be deaf, dumb and blind.

Taking action may be viewed as courageous or merely stupid, depending on your point of view. A number of years ago, my husband
witnessed a memorable exchange on a subway going to Pennsylvania Station. A very tall black man entered the car with a woman dressed
in short shorts and high vinyl boots. The woman found a place to sit and immediately nodded off. The man, who was weaving a bit on
his feet, took out a cigarette and lighted it. Within seconds of that infraction, a little white guy with blond hair, probably in
his late 20's, wearing a beige trench coat buttoned up to his neck, politely demurred. "Excuse me, sir, for bothering you," he said,
in a voice obviously formed somewhere in the Midwest, "but I want to point out that it's against the law to smoke on the subway."
The tall man looked down at his interlocutor, sized him up, paused, and then, in deep mellifluous tones, uttered: "Do you wanna
die?"

Most New York stories would have ended there, but not this one. No, the short fellow admitted, he did not want to die, but neither
had he finished what he had to say. He persisted, calmly defending the law and its demonstrable rightness. The big man continued
puffing on his cigarette as he eyed his opponent with growing amusement. The train stopped. It was time for the smoker to leave, but
before he made his exit, he turned to the indefatigable little Midwesterner, nodded, and said, "Have a good Dale Carnegie."

THAT story ended well and with wit, but it carries no moral insight into when to act and when not to act. There are moments,
however, when a smile or a well-timed comment may change the course of what might otherwise be a sorry event.

For the last year and a half, my 15-year-old daughter has been refining the blank expression that accompanies the Pretend Law,
because she spends a couple of hours each day on the subway going to and from school. With her Walkman securely over her ears, she
feigns deafness when the inevitable stray character comes along and attempts a pickup.

She told me that one day, she found herself sitting across from "a white guy in his 30's" who stared at her so shamelessly that she
felt uncomfortable and was relieved when the man finally left the car. But before the train pulled out of the station, the ogler
threw himself against the window and began to pound on the glass. "I love you!" he yelled. "I love you! You're the most beautiful
girl I've ever seen in my life."

Deeply embarrassed, Sophie didn't move. Her fellow passengers treated the man as if he were an invisible mute. But as the train
began to rumble forward, leaving the histrionic troubadour behind, the man sitting next to her looked up from his newspaper and said
in a deadpan voice, "It looks like you have an admirer."

By breaking the code, the man acknowledged himself as a witness to what, despite the pretense, had been a very public outburst. His
understatement not only defined the comedy inherent in the scene, but it also lifted my daughter out of the solitary misery that
comes from being the object of unwanted attention among strangers who collectively participate in a game of erasure. With those few
words, and at no cost to himself, he gave her what she needed ? a feeling of ordinary human solidarity.

The truth is that whatever we might pretend not to see or hear or sometimes smell, most of us actually see, hear and smell a lot.
Behind the mask of oblivion lies alertness (or exhaustion from having to be so alert). Daydreaming on a country road is one thing.
Daydreaming on Fifth Avenue with hundreds of other people striding down the same sidewalk is quite another. But because we are so
crowded here, active recognition of other people has become mostly a matter of choice. Even so, compliments, insults, banter, smiles
and genuine conversations among strangers are part of the city's noise, its stimulus, its charm. To live in strict accordance to the
Pretend Law all the time would be unbearably dull.

For us urbanites, there is a delight that comes from thinking on our feet, from sizing up situations and making the decision to act
or not to act. Most of the time, we insulate ourselves out of necessity, but once in a while we break through to one another and
discover unexpected depths of intelligence or heart or just plain sweetness. Whenever that happens, I am reminded of a truth:
everyone has an inner life that is as large and complex and rich as my own.

Sometimes a brief exchange with a stranger marks you forever, not because it is profound, but because it is uncommonly vivid. More
than 20 years ago, I saw a man sprawled on the sidewalk at Broadway and 105th Street. Unshaven, filthy and ragged, he lay on his
side in an apparent stupor, clutching a bottle in a torn and wrinkled paper bag. As I walked past, he suddenly propped himself up,
and called out: "Hey, beautiful! Want to have dinner with me?"

His question was so loud, so direct, that I stopped. Looking down at the man at my feet, I said, "Thank you so much for the
invitation, but I'm busy tonight."

Without a moment's hesitation, he grinned up at me, lifted the bottle in a mock toast and said, "Lunch?"

Siri Hustvedt's third novel, "What I Loved," will be published by Henry Holt in March.

--NYT 12/8/02


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard







From mmagee  Sun Dec  8 10:05:50 2002
From: mmagee (Michael Magee)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 10:05:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
In-Reply-To: <007b01c29e23$1438b5a0$5e07fea9@j1c1k6> from "Bob Grumman" at Dec 7, 2002 02:01:41 pm
Message-ID: <200212081505.gB8F5oN8004143@dept.english.upenn.edu>

According to Bob Grumman:
> 
> > David, I think, for what it's worth that the best book of poetry this past
> > year was Heather Fuller's DOVECOTE.
> 
> Excuse my crankiness, but surely you mean "the best book of poetry published
> in 2002 that you've read?"  Or have you read all the poetry books that were
> published this year?
> 
> --Bob G.

Bob, no, I've actually read every book of poetry published in the last
year, also every book of fiction and non-fiction and every children's
book.  I guess you could say I'm a voracious reader - thousands and
thousands of books which I read and then sell on ebay (see my auctions!).
I also see every film, if they don't come to my neighborhhod I go to New
York, Paris, Hong Kong and New Dehli to find them.  And I watch every
television sit-com and every drama on HBO - every episode!  And oh, every
album put out on every label I'm sure to give a listen. And I've been to
every gallery inthe world to see every exhibit.   And I can say with great
confidence that Heather Fuller's DOVECOTE is the best piece of cultural
expression made public Between January 1 and December 8, 2002.

-m.





From smith948  Sun Dec  8 12:34:11 2002
From: smith948 (ellen smith)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 12:34:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: empathy & art
In-Reply-To: <3DF30972.25951.1BEFC5@localhost>
References: <20021207170102.86057101EA@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
 <3DF30972.25951.1BEFC5@localhost>
Message-ID: <a05100300ba1932c68667@[165.190.124.251]>

Presto!  The slippery slope argument I had anticipated.
ems



>  > > > > Marcus Bales:
>>  > > > the apt uses of those skills and techniques that successfully create
>>  > > > empathy in the reader is good art, while inept uses that do not
>>  > > > succeed in creating empathy in the reader is bad art, in my view.
>>  >
>>  > Crisman Cooley:
>>  > > This is the same view I think that led Marcel Duchamp to the
>>  > choice of the
>>  > > Bottle Rack as a readymade.  Though I believe the Steel Comb is more
>>  > > empathetic.
>>  >
>>  > Marcus Bales:
>>  > I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here.
>>
>Crisman Cooley:
>>  I was trying out your idea by choosing what I thought would be the most
>>  extreme counter-example.  I like Alan Watts' notion that a thing and its
>>  opposite are one.  That is why I felt at liberty to agree with you, while
>>  proposing the antithesis of your idea.
>
>I was afraid you were going to say that.
>
>Crisman Cooley:
>>  ... (There are "further vistas of irony"
>>  in the "mystery" surrounding the choice of the Readymades.  John Cage (in
>>  music) later also abdicated that choice too.)  Readymades appear at first
>>  glance to be the death of art.  In fact, they can act as its revivification,
>>  by placing the responsibility for meaning creation in hands and the mind of
>>  the observer....<<
>
>Well, I disagree fundamentally with the entire notion that by signing
>something "as an artist" one has made it into art. That looks
>perilously close, to me, to the great western civilization notion of
>"discovery": steal whatever you please, so long as you claim you've
>discovered it instead of stolen it.  A friend of mine says, whenever
>someone mentions that Columbus discovered America "I see a fine-
>looking Cadillac over there.  I think I'll go discover it." To sign a
>bottle rack or a comb and claim it's thereby made into art is merely
>theft, not art.
>
>Crisman Cooley:
>>  This is true in the case also of a poem that creates empathy
>>  in an observer.  The poem does not contain the meaning or the empathy; these
>>  exist, if at all, in the mind of the observer. <
>
>This is silly.  Without the poem there can be nothing for the reader
>to read; nothing out of which to create art.  If you seriously hold
>that the art is only in the mind of the observer then everything is
>art: rape, murder, terrorism, the Grand Canyon, Niagra Falls, cloud
>formations, white noise, deep space, and silence.  Where there can be
>no useful distinction made between art and non-art there can be no
>art at all.  Holding that anything is art if a claimant says it is is
>a declaration that there is no art at all -- except perhaps the art
>of the scam or the con. And then the distinction between "good art"
>and "bad art" becomes merely a matter of salesmanship.  Good art is
>whatever the "market" will "buy" -- even if the medium of exchange is
>praise and reputation instead of money.
>
>Crisman Cooley:
>>  I am very sorry (or perhaps excited at the opportunity present) that I have
>>  found nothing in my investigation of contemporary poetry that matches the
>>  power of the Readymades to destroy art so that art might continue to live.<
>
>Well, fortunately for you, then, I happen to have right here to hand
>the very thing you seek.  Below is one of thousands of poems I've
>written, called "Quotations", to my prospective clients.  I hope
>you're a prominent editor of a prominent literary magazine so that
>you can take this opportunity to con your audience into accepting
>"Marcus Bales" as synonymous with "Marcel Duchamp" as a creator of
>readymades.  Thank you in advance.
>
>Bales&Price, Inc.
>Designer Glass, Wood, Polymers & Metal
>540 E. 105th Street  Cleveland, Ohio  44108
>Phone: (216) 268-5520  Facsimile: (216) 268-5540
>website: http://www.designerglass.com
>email: marcus at designerglass.com
>
>SUMMARY QUOTATION 98-1005
>Rectangle, Diamond, and Gothic designs
>SGO 1/2" Lead Rectangles and Gothic;
>1/4" Lead Diamonds & borders
>Pane		No of
>No.		Panes Description and size and design			Price
>
>1-3		3 Basement Doors 18-5/8x78-7/8 RECT			  229
>4-9		6 Basement Panels 19-1/4x47-1/4 RECT		  460
>10,11		2 Library Panels 19-1/4x35-1/4 DIAM w/ medallions	  785
>12,13		2 Front Entry Panels 15-1/4x47-1/4 DIAM		  235
>14,19		2 DR Transoms 11-1/4x29-1/4 RECT			  120
>15,20		2 DR Windows 11-1/4x67-1/4 RECT			  150
>16		3 DR Transoms 17-1/4x29-1/4 RECT			  120
>17,18		3 DR Windows 17-1/4x67-1/4 RECT w/ medallions	1230
>21		3 Kitchen Transoms 19-1/4x19-1/4 DIAM		    98
>22,23		3 Kitchen Windows 19-1/4x35-1/4 DIAM			  179
>24		1 Bathroom Window 19-1/4x29-1/4 DIAM		    49
>25,26		2 Garage Windows 19-1/4x47-1/4 DIAM			  138
>27,28		2 Garage Windows 19-1/4x41-1/4 DIAM			  158
>29		2 Laundry Transoms 23-1/4x11-1/4 RECT		  120
>30,31		2 Laundry Windows 23-1/4x29-1/4 RECT		  140
>32,35,38	6 Eating Area Transoms 23-1/4x11-1/4 RECT		  132
>33,34,36,37
>   39,40		6 Eating Area Windows 23-1/4x47-1/4 RECT 
>		  475
>41		1 Hearth Room Door 24-5/8x78-7/8 RECT		  109
>42,44		5 Hearth Room Transoms 29-1/4x11-1/4 RECT		  140
>43,45		5 Hearth Room Windows 29-1/4x47-1/4 RECT		  495
>46,47		2 Den Room Windows 23-1/4x53-1/4 RECT		  170
>48,49		6 Den Room Windows 19-1/4x29-1/4 RECT		  295
>50		1 Den Bath Window 19-1/4x29-1/4 RECT, w/ medallion	  350
>51,54		2 Library Sidelights 19-1/4x67-1/4 RECT		  180
>52,53		2 Library Doorlights 25-3/4x66-3/16 RECT, w/ medallion	  860
>55,56		2 Window Seat Windows 11-1/4x41-1/4 DIAM		  190
>57,58		3 Closet Windows 19-1/4x19-1/4 DIAM			  150
>59		1 Master Bath Toilet Window 19-1/4x19-1/4 DIAM	    49
>60,61		6 M Bath Windows 23-1/4x35-1/4 DIAM			  450
>62,63		2 M BR Windows 19-1/4x29-1/4 DIAM, w/medallion	  885
>64,65		2 M BR Doors 37-3/4x66-3/16 RECT			  208
>66,67		2 West Guest BR 23-1/4x53-1/4 RECT			  118
>68,69		2 South Guest BR 19-1/4x41-1/4 DIAM			  158
>GOTHIC	1 Single arched window, gothic arch, w/tri-foils & pts	  785
>GOTHIC	3 arched windows, gothic arch				  885
>		3 Rectangle windows					  650
>Total 
>	11,995.00
>Sketch Deposit paid 
>	(    500.00)
>Balance 
>	11,445.00
>
>Terms:  60% on approval of art; balance on delivery.  Please circle
>the options required, initial the circles, sign and date below, and
>return one signed copy with your deposit.  Please keep one copy for
>your records.
>
>_________________________________		_____________
>Accepted						Date
>
>
>Marcus Bales
>
>marcus at designerglass.com
>http://www.designerglass.com
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


-- 



From halvard  Sun Dec  8 10:47:22 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 10:47:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: empathy & art
In-Reply-To: <a05100300ba1932c68667@[165.190.124.251]>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEEHFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Nice one, Marcus. I can hear it being sung to the tune
of "The Twelve Days of Christmas."

Hal         "Always go to other people's funerals, otherwise
                they won't come to yours.
                                    --Yogi Berra
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard

{    >Well, fortunately for you, then, I happen to have right here to hand
{    >the very thing you seek.  Below is one of thousands of poems I've
{    >written, called "Quotations", to my prospective clients.  I hope
{    >you're a prominent editor of a prominent literary magazine so that
{    >you can take this opportunity to con your audience into accepting
{    >"Marcus Bales" as synonymous with "Marcel Duchamp" as a creator of
{    >readymades.  Thank you in advance.
{    >
{    >Bales&Price, Inc.
{    >Designer Glass, Wood, Polymers & Metal
{    >540 E. 105th Street  Cleveland, Ohio  44108
{    >Phone: (216) 268-5520  Facsimile: (216) 268-5540
{    >website: http://www.designerglass.com
{    >email: marcus at designerglass.com
{    >
{    >SUMMARY QUOTATION 98-1005
{    >Rectangle, Diamond, and Gothic designs
{    >SGO 1/2" Lead Rectangles and Gothic;
{    >1/4" Lead Diamonds & borders
{    >Pane		No of
{    >No.		Panes Description and size and design			Price
{    >
{    >1-3		3 Basement Doors 18-5/8x78-7/8 RECT			  229
{    >4-9		6 Basement Panels 19-1/4x47-1/4 RECT		  460
{    >10,11		2 Library Panels 19-1/4x35-1/4 DIAM w/ medallions	  785
{    >12,13		2 Front Entry Panels 15-1/4x47-1/4 DIAM		  235
{    >14,19		2 DR Transoms 11-1/4x29-1/4 RECT			  120
{    >15,20		2 DR Windows 11-1/4x67-1/4 RECT			  150
{    >16		3 DR Transoms 17-1/4x29-1/4 RECT			  120
{    >17,18		3 DR Windows 17-1/4x67-1/4 RECT w/ medallions	1230
{    >21		3 Kitchen Transoms 19-1/4x19-1/4 DIAM		    98
{    >22,23		3 Kitchen Windows 19-1/4x35-1/4 DIAM			  179
{    >24		1 Bathroom Window 19-1/4x29-1/4 DIAM		    49
{    >25,26		2 Garage Windows 19-1/4x47-1/4 DIAM			  138
{    >27,28		2 Garage Windows 19-1/4x41-1/4 DIAM			  158
{    >29		2 Laundry Transoms 23-1/4x11-1/4 RECT		  120
{    >30,31		2 Laundry Windows 23-1/4x29-1/4 RECT		  140
{    >32,35,38	6 Eating Area Transoms 23-1/4x11-1/4 RECT		  132
{    >33,34,36,37
{    >   39,40		6 Eating Area Windows 23-1/4x47-1/4 RECT 
{    >		  475
{    >41		1 Hearth Room Door 24-5/8x78-7/8 RECT		  109
{    >42,44		5 Hearth Room Transoms 29-1/4x11-1/4 RECT		  140
{    >43,45		5 Hearth Room Windows 29-1/4x47-1/4 RECT		  495
{    >46,47		2 Den Room Windows 23-1/4x53-1/4 RECT		  170
{    >48,49		6 Den Room Windows 19-1/4x29-1/4 RECT		  295
{    >50		1 Den Bath Window 19-1/4x29-1/4 RECT, w/ medallion	  350
{    >51,54		2 Library Sidelights 19-1/4x67-1/4 RECT		  180
{    >52,53		2 Library Doorlights 25-3/4x66-3/16 RECT, w/ medallion	  860
{    >55,56		2 Window Seat Windows 11-1/4x41-1/4 DIAM		  190
{    >57,58		3 Closet Windows 19-1/4x19-1/4 DIAM			  150
{    >59		1 Master Bath Toilet Window 19-1/4x19-1/4 DIAM	    49
{    >60,61		6 M Bath Windows 23-1/4x35-1/4 DIAM			  450
{    >62,63		2 M BR Windows 19-1/4x29-1/4 DIAM, w/medallion	  885
{    >64,65		2 M BR Doors 37-3/4x66-3/16 RECT			  208
{    >66,67		2 West Guest BR 23-1/4x53-1/4 RECT			  118
{    >68,69		2 South Guest BR 19-1/4x41-1/4 DIAM			  158
{    >GOTHIC	1 Single arched window, gothic arch, w/tri-foils & pts	  785
{    >GOTHIC	3 arched windows, gothic arch				  885
{    >		3 Rectangle windows					  650
{    >Total 
{    >	11,995.00
{    >Sketch Deposit paid 
{    >	(    500.00)
{    >Balance 
{    >	11,445.00
{    >
{    >Terms:  60% on approval of art; balance on delivery.  Please circle
{    >the options required, initial the circles, sign and date below, and
{    >return one signed copy with your deposit.  Please keep one copy for
{    >your records.
{    >
{    >_________________________________		_____________
{    >Accepted						Date
{    >
{    >
{    >Marcus Bales
{    >
{    >marcus at designerglass.com
{    >http://www.designerglass.com
{    >
{    >
{    >
{    >_______________________________________________
{    >New-Poetry mailing list
{    >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    
{    
{    -- 
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    




From MillB  Sun Dec  8 11:23:43 2002
From: MillB (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 11:23:43 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Robert Hershon, "How to Ride on the Woodlaw...
Message-ID: <151.188b832c.2b24cc0f@aol.com>

Hal:

Thank you for that!  We just got back from a Thanksgiving Day trip to NYC. . 
.

Mill




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From halvard  Sun Dec  8 11:35:39 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 11:35:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Robert Hershon, "How to Ride on the Woodlaw...
In-Reply-To: <151.188b832c.2b24cc0f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEEJFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Hmm, I had the feeling there were some out-of-towners in town.
Would it have been more helpful if I'd posted it *before* your trip?

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard

  Hal:

  Thank you for that!  We just got back from a Thanksgiving Day trip to NYC.
. .

  Mill




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From bobgrumman  Sun Dec  8 13:15:40 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 13:15:40 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
References: <200212081505.gB8F5oN8004143@dept.english.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <001201c29ee5$d1c5dd60$3707fea9@j1c1k6>

> According to Bob Grumman:
> >
> > > David, I think, for what it's worth that the best book of poetry this
past
> > > year was Heather Fuller's DOVECOTE.
> >
> > Excuse my crankiness, but surely you mean "the best book of poetry
published
> > in 2002 that you've read?"  Or have you read all the poetry books that
were
> > published this year?
> >
> > --Bob G.
>
> Bob, no, I've actually read every book of poetry published in the last
> year, also every book of fiction and non-fiction and every children's
> book.  I guess you could say I'm a voracious reader - thousands and
> thousands of books which I read and then sell on ebay (see my auctions!).
> I also see every film, if they don't come to my neighborhhod I go to New
> York, Paris, Hong Kong and New Dehli to find them.  And I watch every
> television sit-com and every drama on HBO - every episode!  And oh, every
> album put out on every label I'm sure to give a listen. And I've been to
> every gallery inthe world to see every exhibit.   And I can say with great
> confidence that Heather Fuller's DOVECOTE is the best piece of cultural
> expression made public Between January 1 and December 8, 2002.
>
> -m.

I congratulate you, Michael.  I think you should have told us all this
before making your statement, though, so you wouldn't wrongly make us think
you were the kind of nitwit who edits anthologies of mostly mediocre poetry
and, on the basis of very little familiarity with what's out there, calls it
the best poetry published in some year or another.  Sure, this won't bother
the comfortable also mediocre who compose poetry and know what the editor
rilly meant.  That's because even those mediocrities whose work failed to
get in the anthology for that year can hope it will some other year.  But it
needlessly lowers the morale of better poets.  A preference for accurate
language over hype is no real burden and can make the world a nicer place
for most of us.

--Bob G.




From bobgrumman  Sun Dec  8 13:45:27 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 13:45:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy & art
References: <3DF311A9.11265.3C09D1@localhost>
Message-ID: <002c01c29ee9$fa6225e0$3707fea9@j1c1k6>

> > > Marcus Bales:
> > > Well it seemed to me at the time that "empathy" was being used to
> > > mean something like "create a pleasurable response, the greater, more
> > > sustained, and more complicatingly ramifying the better".
>
> Bob Grumman:
> > Probably so.
>
> Then it seems as if we agree --

About how "empathy" was used.

> except that you go on thereafter at
> some length apparently seeking a disagreement.

What I thought I was doing was clarifying more exactly my position.

> Marcus Bales:
> > >I don't
> > > think anyone is really disagreeing here on more than terminology,
> > > unless you're going to insist on "pleasurable" in the sense that it
> > > has to be only hedonistically pleasurable.
>
> Bob Grumman:
> > I would insist on pleasurable in the sense of causing pleasure.  But
that's
> > probably terminological, too, since I would argue that poems that some
> > people would say do not provide that
> > do.  A eulogy, say, that on the surface causes sorrow, ultimately--if
> > successful as a poem--causes more pleasure than pain.  (A sense of loss
> > overcome--in one way, by a triumphant translation into an artwork, and
by
> > the beauties of that artwork.)
>
> Well, this is like "poetry is as good as it prompts action" -- the
> question remains, "how much action, what kind of action, how soon?"

You've lost me.

> and the like.  If an eulogy causes pain to the widow but pleasure to
> the deceased fellow's enemies, do you count that a successful poem or
> not?

I consider it successful as a poem to the degree that it causes aesthetic
pleasure to an aesthespient (my latest term for receiver of an artwork).  A
eulogy, to be successful, would have to cause asethetic pleasure to its
aesthespients.  That it may cause pain or pleasure to someone for
non-aesthetic reasons does not count.


> Bob Grumman:
> > I'm not sure what "hedonistic" means, by the way.  It seems to me almost
> > entirely a propagandism meaning "pleasure I don't approve of" the way
> > "license" means "the liberty to do what I don't approve of."  I go along
> > with the idea that some pleasures are superior to others.  But a poem
that
> > successfully expresses any pleasure is, for me, a success.
>
> I meant "hedonistic pleasure" in the sense of "pleasure there is no
> denying as pleasure", as, for example, eating when hungry, drinking
> when thirsty, having sex when aroused, and the like: unequivocal
> pleasures, as opposed to the equivocal pleasures of art.

So you don't think there's the kind of need for art that there is for food?


> Marcus Bales;
> > > After all, what is empathy
> > > but a sustained, great, and complicatingly ramifying response?
>
> Bob Grumman:
> > One thing it can be is a short-lived, tiny, unramifying response.  One
can
> > empathize with a man who has lost a penny as well as with a man whose
house
> > has burned down.<<
>
> Context is all in this case; the widow who adds her mite to the
> offering, and the man who loses his very last penny may be people
> with whom we empathize, but not in an "short-lived, tiny, unramifying
> response".  With an ordinary fellow who loses a penny we are not
> likely to empathize, Bob -- or even sympathize -- unless it is a
> penny worth a good deal more than a penny.

Come on, Marcus.  I was obviously showing the difference between degrees of
empathy.  A poem can express empathy for small things and therefore be
small--but successful.


> Bob Grumman:
> > I don't see empathy as complicatingly ramifying, a phrase I am using
> > (because I can't offhand think of a better one) to mean something that
> > connects to many things beyond itself in space and time--for instance,
in
> > simple terms, a poem that becomes part of your outlook and response to
life
> > for life--which will probably include empathy but need not.<<
>
> It seems to me that one must indeed empathize in order to see the
> connections beyond a thing into space and time.  It is precisely
> those things, or events, or people, who guide us to see those
> connections with which or with whom we empathize -- that's what
> empathy *means*, it seems to me.  You seem to have some private
> definition of "empathy" that makes the use of the word to mean "a
> sustained, great, and complicatingly ramifying response" or
> "something that connects to many things beyond itself in space and
> time" anathema to you.

Why "anathema?"  I use "empathy" as getting sympathetically inside another's
mind or heart, more or less.  For me it is thus social, as opposed to
aesthetic, and art's main function, for me, is aesthetic, not social.  I
suppose you could use it to mean getting into an artwork, but not to any
advantage that I can see.
>
> Bob Grumman:
> > More than that I probably can't say because it would involve my going
into
> > the details of my theory of aesthetics, which is too involved for me to
get
> > into here, and which would bore just about everybody here if I did, and
were
> > coherent, which is unlikely.
>
> Ah -- the predictable "I know way more about this than I'm willing to
> say" ploy from Bob Grumman!  How ... predictable.

You're right, Marcus.  I should have said that I've once again bween pushed
by a master-mind to the limits of my knowledge of this subject and therefore
can't go on.

--Bob G.


--Bob G.




From bobgrumman  Sun Dec  8 13:47:56 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 13:47:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
References: <27.331d7e63.2b2397b3@aol.com> <00c301c29ec0$6b30b9a0$ec59bd18@MULDER>
Message-ID: <003b01c29eea$53440de0$3707fea9@j1c1k6>

> Has anyone seen my _Post-Avant_, out this year from Pavement Saw?
>
> http://www.pavementsaw.org/postavant.htm
>
> Dan Zimmerman

I have it but haven't had time to do more than skim it (also true of just
about every other book of any kind I've picked up this year).  I do remember
liking the few poems in it I had a chance to read!

--Bob G.





From JforJames  Sun Dec  8 14:35:55 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 14:35:55 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: empathy & art
Message-ID: <27.33317516.2b24f91b@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/7/02 5:29:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
ccooley at overdomain.com writes:

> Readymades appear at first
>  glance to be the death of art.  In fact, they can act as its 
revivification,
>  by placing the responsibility for meaning creation in hands and the mind of
>  the observer.  This is true in the case also of a poem that creates empathy
>  in an observer.  The poem does not contain the meaning or the empathy; 
these
>  exist, if at all, in the mind of the observer.  This is the "role of the
>  reader", as Umberto Eco calls it.
>  
>  I am very sorry (or perhaps excited at the opportunity present) that I have
>  found nothing in my investigation of contemporary poetry that matches the
>  power of the Readymades to destroy art so that art might continue to live.
>  (I wonder if poetry has missed out its opportunity to embrace Dadaism.  And
>  I am open to enlightenment.)
>  
Crisman, the problem with Dada is that it's a dead-end. An endpoint. You
can't transcend...you can only retreat back into realm of the meaningful.
R. Mutt's "Font" was an important provocation...a testing of a limit. After 
the
limit is reached, to process can't really be repeated with any of the original
shock, elan or wit. In fact, what is left behind, the art itself, becomes 
something 
of a historical novelty...it's value being the in "the act" or "the 
statement." 
While the breadth and depth of art can only be extended, with great effort, 
from within. 
Finnegan
  



From Rsgwynn1  Sun Dec  8 14:54:33 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 14:54:33 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
Message-ID: <a3.34306ec4.2b24fd79@cs.com>

B. H. Fairchild's new book, the strange title of which is well known to this 
group.
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From halvard  Sun Dec  8 14:49:00 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 14:49:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ann Lauterbach, "Missing Ages"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEEPFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Missing Ages

1.

At times dry weight shifts vicariously on mental limbs like music
hurting remotely.

At times, fathers die and die, but
biography is a false persuasion.

Inhaling the night I am stitched to you
with incendiary sorrow.

A party? In costume, you say, and
invited to dwell in a sea of lords and ladies?
Quit smoking? Weep?
And those magnolias, are they
part of the wall, or of the rushing river
with its vestal gashes arriving on a whim of connective tissue, on air?

In a foreign land we will learn some songs.
They will last as long as the next gold rush.

2.

				This is my r?sum?. Hire me.
I am from January, where the winds are severe.
I am an immigrant from evening, hire me.
My father was a sweeper of secrets, a silk merchant
in Vienna, he had no boots, he had no lotion for his skin.
Hire me. This handkerchief is woven from ninety percent.
My daughters are in Mexico on a jaunt. They have not
read of the insurrection, they
do not get CNN. This is my black scarf. This is my painting of a jar.
Hire me. This is a photo of my husband
taken when he was a young man in jail.
I still remember sex, I can tell you stories
of such women you will invite me to your trial. The snow
stinks of yellow. Someone in a corner says thank you repeatedly.
Hire me. I am what you do not know and will not miss.

3.

The rapacious sky is as a winged figure
flaunting its rapture, a film
of film whose beginning middle and end
we will never see. Knowledge is form.
Wait for me under the apple tree on the blue sand.
A discordant glue travels into courage, and the cut
speeds along the finger's edge. Weather
confounds our dreams, we wake humid
with what we forgot while those who stay late
sleep in the margins, fools
for fools' gossip. Millions are spent
on regular episodes from that life.
Starved monks subsume an awful
delay, snowbound, iconoclastic, their
amnesia intact. I was a gallant trooper
thru the history of Nordic exploration,
I sank heavy water.
I wear the soiled increment
as a shield; my eyes break day by day
in sublime iteration: unbearable choice among peers.
We speak in tongues, yes?
All instances fill and empty as
the suction of love plays that rule, coming to stay
in the habits of an angel skinned by disbelief.
He raises the issue to emblematic stature:
nature loves a plague as much as a rose.

4.

The mutant veracity of almost.
The steep incline of a heart.
The dotted line of convention.
The little afterlife of hazard.
What spills from the mouth of the passionate dog.
The voice of reason, its ineptitude with layers.
The amulets of thieves; grief as such.
The occasion purloined.
A brother's best scarf.
A brother's gray scarf.
Between best and gray, an analogy.
Icon of an ordinary okay.
Between nine and fine.
The makeshift bed.
The national interest.

5.

Which from among these absences will you choose?
When the French girl arrives, no one will answer the phone for a week.
If I were invited to sleep over, I would bring
my dowsing rod, over which
you could say your prayers, but if we
touch the beautiful soul it will
never stop raining.
One by one, we are announced, and our
names are a weightless carriage.
Hire me. I live on the stairs. I go up and down.

--Ann Lauterbach

fr. *If in Time: Selected Poems: 1975-2000*
[New York: Penguin Poets, 2001]

orig. in *And For Example* (1994)

Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard





From halvard  Sun Dec  8 14:53:45 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 14:53:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ann Lauterbach, "Missing Ages"
Message-ID: <002801c29ef3$848d75e0$73ddd23f@computer>

Missing Ages

1.

At times dry weight shifts vicariously on mental limbs like music
hurting remotely.

At times, fathers die and die, but
biography is a false persuasion.

Inhaling the night I am stitched to you
with incendiary sorrow.

A party? In costume, you say, and
invited to dwell in a sea of lords and ladies?
Quit smoking? Weep?
And those magnolias, are they
part of the wall, or of the rushing river
with its vestal gashes arriving on a whim of connective tissue, on air?

In a foreign land we will learn some songs.
They will last as long as the next gold rush.

2.

				This is my r?sum?. Hire me.
I am from January, where the winds are severe.
I am an immigrant from evening, hire me.
My father was a sweeper of secrets, a silk merchant
in Vienna, he had no boots, he had no lotion for his skin.
Hire me. This handkerchief is woven from ninety percent.
My daughters are in Mexico on a jaunt. They have not
read of the insurrection, they
do not get CNN. This is my black scarf. This is my painting of a jar.
Hire me. This is a photo of my husband
taken when he was a young man in jail.
I still remember sex, I can tell you stories
of such women you will invite me to your trial. The snow
stinks of yellow. Someone in a corner says thank you repeatedly.
Hire me. I am what you do not know and will not miss.

3.

The rapacious sky is as a winged figure
flaunting its rapture, a film
of film whose beginning middle and end
we will never see. Knowledge is form.
Wait for me under the apple tree on the blue sand.
A discordant glue travels into courage, and the cut
speeds along the finger's edge. Weather
confounds our dreams, we wake humid
with what we forgot while those who stay late
sleep in the margins, fools
for fools' gossip. Millions are spent
on regular episodes from that life.
Starved monks subsume an awful
delay, snowbound, iconoclastic, their
amnesia intact. I was a gallant trooper
thru the history of Nordic exploration,
I sank heavy water.
I wear the soiled increment
as a shield; my eyes break day by day
in sublime iteration: unbearable choice among peers.
We speak in tongues, yes?
All instances fill and empty as
the suction of love plays that rule, coming to stay
in the habits of an angel skinned by disbelief.
He raises the issue to emblematic stature:
nature loves a plague as much as a rose.

4.

The mutant veracity of almost.
The steep incline of a heart.
The dotted line of convention.
The little afterlife of hazard.
What spills from the mouth of the passionate dog.
The voice of reason, its ineptitude with layers.
The amulets of thieves; grief as such.
The occasion purloined.
A brother's best scarf.
A brother's gray scarf.
Between best and gray, an analogy.
Icon of an ordinary okay.
Between nine and fine.
The makeshift bed.
The national interest.

5.

Which from among these absences will you choose?
When the French girl arrives, no one will answer the phone for a week.
If I were invited to sleep over, I would bring
my dowsing rod, over which
you could say your prayers, but if we
touch the beautiful soul it will
never stop raining.
One by one, we are announced, and our
names are a weightless carriage.
Hire me. I live on the stairs. I go up and down.

--Ann Lauterbach

fr. *If in Time: Selected Poems: 1975-2000*
[New York: Penguin Poets, 2001]

orig. in *And For Example* (1994)

Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard





From grahamd  Sun Dec  8 15:32:06 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 14:32:06 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fairchild
Message-ID: <200212082031.gB8KVxAe015989@mx7.mx.voyager.net>

I'll add my praise to Fairchild's book of the unfortunate title.  Even more
unfortunate, in my mind, is William Logan's review of it in The New
Criterion (http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/21/dec02/logan.htm).  Fellow
victims of the review include Mark Doty and Li-Young Lee.

Here's some of what Logan has to say about Fairchild's work:

++++++++++++
There?s nothing wrong with making noble figures of factory workers?Stalin
thought it a fine thing, and the good communist boilermakers who flexed
their biceps in socialist realist painting were little different from the
muscled coal-mining democrats in the post-office murals of the WPA. Long ago
the Romantics had their shepherds, and before them Milton his shepherds, and
before him Virgil and Theocritus their shepherds. There?s nothing wrong with
romanticizing the working man, except it?s usually the work of a deskbound
poet whose nearest brush with hard labor comes, these days, from what he
sees in the movies. 

There?s nothing wrong with it, but does the lice-ridden shepherd or the coal
miner dying from black lung ever feel quite so noble? I?m reminded of a poet
who on the basis of a few long-ago weeks sweeping factory floors became the
laureate of the factory floor. Even when Fairchild touches on the grinding
boredom of nine-to-five jobs, there remains a varnish of
romance?condescension disguised as apotheosis. Soon the poet?s gaze, because
he is a poet, turns instead to chokecherries that "gouge the purpled sky" or
a sun that "dissolves behind the pearl-gray strands/ of a cirrus and the
frayed, flaming branches/ along the creek"?gorgeous scenes, but like a lurid
landscape by Bierstadt hanging behind a scrap pile.
++++++++++++

For contrast, here is Anthony Hecht's blurb from the book jacket:

 "There is no more lyric celebration of America's grandeurs  and
desolations?not regarded here as separate facets of  our lives and
landscapes, but as completely fused in our hopes and despairs?than this
superb collection of poems.  Mr. Fairchild here surpasses himself in his
unflinching  vision and exaltation of spirit. These poems do honor to our 
country, and should rank with the best of our poetry."
 ?Anthony Hecht
-----------------------

Read several poems from Fairchild's book at the Norton website:  

http://www.nortonpoets.com/fairchildb.htm

========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
undergraduate education."
   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================


----------
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
Date: Sun, Dec 8, 2002, 1:54 PM


B. H. Fairchild's new book, the strange title of which is well known to this
group. 
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From MillB  Sun Dec  8 16:30:30 2002
From: MillB (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 16:30:30 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: First Books
Message-ID: <2d.27b342d6.2b2513f6@aol.com>

Greetings List--

I'm working on a non-fiction piece about "first books," and I am hoping that 
those of you with at least one book published might be willing to answer a 
few questions? 

(maybe during the "free time" after you have turned in your grade books and 
before you have started wrapping gifts?)

I finished grad school in 1993 (at USC) and since that time I've been 
attempting to get my own poetry manuscript accepted by a publisher, and I 
thought that perhaps an investigation about how established authors' first 
books were published might shed some light on the process and also be helpful 
to emerging writers.

My own career has included grants from the NEA, the California Arts Council, 
and Barbara Deming--as well as residencies at Yaddo and Vermont Studio 
Center.  Witness, Interim, Laurel Review, the Wallace Stevens Journal, Tampa 
Review and anthologies, including Boomer Girls (U. of Iowa) are recent 
credits.  

Venice, CA is my home, and, when I'm not a starving poet, I freelance as a 
technical writer in the oil industry. 

Pasted below are some questions; I would greatly appreciate any responses 
that folks on the list would care to give.  

I hope everyone has a pleasant holiday season.

Sincerely,


Millicent C. Borges

<A HREF="http://www.mercygirl.com/borges">http://www.mercygirl.com/borges</A>


 Questions 

1) Describe the circumstances about how your first book was published.









2) Were you given any particularly awful or disappointing rejections?








3) Was there anything odd or special about your first book acceptance?  
Strange coincidences?  Like, for example, you mixed up the addresses (mailed 
to Miami instead of Iowa) or sent in the manuscript at the last minute?  
Maybe a lucky charm?








4) Was there a mentor or person who encouraged or helped you? 







5) What poetry book had the most impact on your own writing and why?

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From smith948  Sun Dec  8 18:16:22 2002
From: smith948 (ellen smith)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 18:16:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fairchild
In-Reply-To: <200212082031.gB8KVxAe015989@mx7.mx.voyager.net>
References: <200212082031.gB8KVxAe015989@mx7.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <a05100304ba1981ef205a@[165.190.124.251]>

And, having said my say on Logan's Ninja-ness, I have to say that 
what he says as a caveat in his review of Fairchild is a legitimate 
caveat.  What he really is suggesting here is far more radical than 
blithe celebration of blue-collar work:  how do poets, in addition to 
corporate entities, exploit this persons, stealing from them their 
grit of authenticity and then aestheticizing the grit with some 
uplifting image?  Look, I'm from Pittsburgh...where we turn out such 
poems at the rate at which we used to turn out steel.  I think it's 
only right to second-guess poets' motives and methods in this poetic 
industry.  I'll have to read the rest of the review to get a sense of 
whether or not this is Logan at his meanest.  But, based on the 
excerpt David's provided here, this is Logan at simmer strength and 
he doesn't cross any lines as far as I can see between fair and 
unfair criticism.
ellen s.


>I'll add my praise to Fairchild's book of the unfortunate title. 
> Even more unfortunate, in my mind, is William Logan's review of it 
>in The New Criterion 
>(http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/21/dec02/logan.htm).  Fellow 
>victims of the review include Mark Doty and Li-Young Lee.
>
>Here's some of what Logan has to say about Fairchild's work:
>
>++++++++++++
>There?s nothing wrong with making noble figures of factory 
>workers?Stalin thought it a fine thing, and the good communist 
>boilermakers who flexed their biceps in socialist realist painting 
>were little different from the muscled coal-mining democrats in the 
>post-office murals of the WPA. Long ago the Romantics had their 
>shepherds, and before them Milton his shepherds, and before him 
>Virgil and Theocritus their shepherds. There?s nothing wrong with 
>romanticizing the working man, except it?s usually the work of a 
>deskbound poet whose nearest brush with hard labor comes, these 
>days, from what he sees in the movies.
>
>There?s nothing wrong with it, but does the lice-ridden shepherd or 
>the coal miner dying from black lung ever feel quite so noble? I?m 
>reminded of a poet who on the basis of a few long-ago weeks sweeping 
>factory floors became the laureate of the factory floor. Even when 
>Fairchild touches on the grinding boredom of nine-to-five jobs, 
>there remains a varnish of romance?condescension disguised as 
>apotheosis. Soon the poet?s gaze, because he is a poet, turns 
>instead to chokecherries that "gouge the purpled sky" or a sun that 
>"dissolves behind the pearl-gray strands/ of a cirrus and the 
>frayed, flaming branches/ along the creek"?gorgeous scenes, but like 
>a lurid landscape by Bierstadt hanging behind a scrap pile.
>++++++++++++
>
>For contrast, here is Anthony Hecht's blurb from the book jacket:
>
>  "There is no more lyric celebration of America's grandeurs  and 
>desolations?not regarded here as separate facets of  our lives and 
>landscapes, but as completely fused in our hopes and despairs?than 
>this superb collection of poems.  Mr. Fairchild here surpasses 
>himself in his unflinching  vision and exaltation of spirit. These 
>poems do honor to our  country, and should rank with the best of our 
>poetry."
>  ?Anthony Hecht
>-----------------------
>
>Read several poems from Fairchild's book at the Norton website:  
>
>http://www.nortonpoets.com/fairchildb.htm
>
>========================================
>David Graham
>Professor of English, Ripon College
>grahamd at ripon.edu
>    Home Page:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>    Poetry Library:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>
>"We're writing the book on quality: personal,
>undergraduate education."
>    Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
>=======================================
>
>
>----------
>From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
>Date: Sun, Dec 8, 2002, 1:54 PM
>
>B. H. Fairchild's new book, the strange title of which is well known 
>to this group.


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From smith948  Sun Dec  8 18:19:25 2002
From: smith948 (ellen smith)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 18:19:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fairchild
In-Reply-To: <200212082031.gB8KVxAe015989@mx7.mx.voyager.net>
References: <200212082031.gB8KVxAe015989@mx7.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <a05100303ba197fcfa08e@[165.190.124.251]>

In my soon to be defended doctoral dissertation entitled 
"Deritualization, Sincerity, and Accessibility:  Protestant Poetics 
and Twentieth-Century American Poetry" (coming to a Blockbuster video 
store near you, I'm sure), I dub Logan the "critic who is always to 
be counted on to toss a ninja star or two".  I do this neither to 
approve or disapprove of his approach, but in order to contextualize 
his review of Snodgrass's Collected.  In fact, I feel as though it is 
a neutral, accurate observation.  I suppose we should just recognize 
his ninja-ness, take it for granted, and keep our heads low.  Of 
course, to receive praise from him is that much more pleasing, in the 
manner of the slave who is patted on the head by the dominatrix 
retracting, for the moment, her/his nine-inch nails.  A poet's book 
entering a column of his is like a submissive entering a dungeon. 
The question remains:  is there a safe word?
ellen s.


>I'll add my praise to Fairchild's book of the unfortunate title. 
> Even more unfortunate, in my mind, is William Logan's review of it 
>in The New Criterion 
>(http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/21/dec02/logan.htm).  Fellow 
>victims of the review include Mark Doty and Li-Young Lee.
>
>Here's some of what Logan has to say about Fairchild's work:
>
>++++++++++++
>There?s nothing wrong with making noble figures of factory 
>workers?Stalin thought it a fine thing, and the good communist 
>boilermakers who flexed their biceps in socialist realist painting 
>were little different from the muscled coal-mining democrats in the 
>post-office murals of the WPA. Long ago the Romantics had their 
>shepherds, and before them Milton his shepherds, and before him 
>Virgil and Theocritus their shepherds. There?s nothing wrong with 
>romanticizing the working man, except it?s usually the work of a 
>deskbound poet whose nearest brush with hard labor comes, these 
>days, from what he sees in the movies.
>
>There?s nothing wrong with it, but does the lice-ridden shepherd or 
>the coal miner dying from black lung ever feel quite so noble? I?m 
>reminded of a poet who on the basis of a few long-ago weeks sweeping 
>factory floors became the laureate of the factory floor. Even when 
>Fairchild touches on the grinding boredom of nine-to-five jobs, 
>there remains a varnish of romance?condescension disguised as 
>apotheosis. Soon the poet?s gaze, because he is a poet, turns 
>instead to chokecherries that "gouge the purpled sky" or a sun that 
>"dissolves behind the pearl-gray strands/ of a cirrus and the 
>frayed, flaming branches/ along the creek"?gorgeous scenes, but like 
>a lurid landscape by Bierstadt hanging behind a scrap pile.
>++++++++++++
>
>For contrast, here is Anthony Hecht's blurb from the book jacket:
>
>  "There is no more lyric celebration of America's grandeurs  and 
>desolations?not regarded here as separate facets of  our lives and 
>landscapes, but as completely fused in our hopes and despairs?than 
>this superb collection of poems.  Mr. Fairchild here surpasses 
>himself in his unflinching  vision and exaltation of spirit. These 
>poems do honor to our  country, and should rank with the best of our 
>poetry."
>  ?Anthony Hecht
>-----------------------
>
>Read several poems from Fairchild's book at the Norton website:  
>
>http://www.nortonpoets.com/fairchildb.htm
>
>========================================
>David Graham
>Professor of English, Ripon College
>grahamd at ripon.edu
>    Home Page:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>    Poetry Library:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>
>"We're writing the book on quality: personal,
>undergraduate education."
>    Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
>=======================================
>
>
>----------
>From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
>Date: Sun, Dec 8, 2002, 1:54 PM
>
>B. H. Fairchild's new book, the strange title of which is well known 
>to this group.


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From gmguddi  Sun Dec  8 17:29:38 2002
From: gmguddi (gmguddi at ilstu.edu)
Date: Sun,  8 Dec 2002 16:29:38 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II -- a defense of poetry
In-Reply-To: <20021208135225.8E37C11E4B@sitemail.everyone.net>
References: <20021208135225.8E37C11E4B@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <1039386578.3df3c7d247bdc@webmail2.ilstu.edu>

I don't know about "best," but I do know that my book A DEFENSE OF POETRY was 
published in 2002, (last month, in fact). The book won the Agnes Lynch Starrett 
Prize and is published as part of the Pitt Poetry Series. Work in the book 
appears in FENCE, AMERICAN POETRY REVIEW (9 of the poems appear in APR), IOWA 
REVIEW, THE EAST VILLAGE, THE NATION, CONDUIT, GMR, ACM, ETC, ETC. 

The title poem "A Defense of Poetry" is included in the Scribner anthology 
GREAT AMERICAN PROSE POEMS: FROM POE TO THE PRESENT, edited by David Lehman and 
due April 2003. Generally, the book is violent and tasteless, with work ranging 
across the various spectra (narrative to lyric, formal to not, tasteful to 
tasteless), in an attempt to speak from a carnivalesque vantage upon poetry and 
all that poetry can defend against. 

Gabriel Gudding

------------------------------------------------------------
Illinois State University Webmail https://webmail2.ilstu.edu



From Rsgwynn1  Sun Dec  8 17:39:09 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 17:39:09 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fairchild
Message-ID: <169.1838144b.2b25240d@cs.com>

In a message dated 12/8/2002 2:33:07 PM Central Standard Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes: 
> 
> I'll add my praise to Fairchild's book of the unfortunate title.  Even more 
> unfortunate, in my mind, is William Logan's review of it in The New 
> Criterion (http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/21/dec02/logan.htm).  Fellow 
> victims of the review include Mark Doty and Li-Young Lee.
O woe.  O misery.  O'Logan.
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From antrobin  Sun Dec  8 17:51:14 2002
From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 14:51:14 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II -- a defense of poetry
References: <20021208135225.8E37C11E4B@sitemail.everyone.net> <1039386578.3df3c7d247bdc@webmail2.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <000f01c29f0c$539e4360$48acefd8@0021936706>

Despite my distaste for Gudding's proclivity to write about the anus, "A
Defense of Poetry" is fabulous.
I highly recommend it.

Tony
***
"The incredible never surprises us because it is the incredible."
Emily Dickinson

***
"I have obtained an aphrodisiac. It is made from the pockets of the Pocket
Fox, a rare animal that only existed for three weeks in the sixteenth
century."
C. Montgomery Burns

***
"The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous gap in poetry
which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but which would be
better left alone."
Kenneth Koch

***
...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us but yet its in
us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals.
Russell Hoban, "Riddley Walker"





From mmagee  Sun Dec  8 20:59:29 2002
From: mmagee (Michael Magee)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 20:59:29 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
In-Reply-To: <001201c29ee5$d1c5dd60$3707fea9@j1c1k6> from "Bob Grumman" at Dec 8, 2002 01:15:40 pm
Message-ID: <200212090159.gB91xT67023043@dept.english.upenn.edu>

Ah, Bob, you seem to have taken my post much too seriously, just having
some fun.  Of course I haven't read every book of poetry published this
year, you silly goose, and in my oringal post I just assumed that was
implied.  As the editor of a poetry mag I get many, many books of poems
sent to me (more than I should given my light number of reviews!) and I do
read almost all of them.  The range is fairly wide.  And, all kidding
aside, you really should check out Fuller's DOVECOTE.  It's a brilliant
book which juts between contexts of urban D.C. and struggling Appalachian
communities. It's certainly got nothing to do with the politics of
anthologies, put out by Edge Books (also responsible for excellent books
by Jennifer Moxley and Anselm Berrigan recently).  Incidentally, K. Silem
Mohammad has an excellent review of Moxley's book in the soon to be
released 11th issue of COMBO.  -m.

 According to Bob Grumman: > > >
According to Bob Grumman: > > >
> > > > David, I think, for what it's worth that the best book of poetry this
> past
> > > > year was Heather Fuller's DOVECOTE.
> > >
> > > Excuse my crankiness, but surely you mean "the best book of poetry
> published
> > > in 2002 that you've read?"  Or have you read all the poetry books that
> were
> > > published this year?
> > >
> > > --Bob G.
> >
> > Bob, no, I've actually read every book of poetry published in the last
> > year, also every book of fiction and non-fiction and every children's
> > book.  I guess you could say I'm a voracious reader - thousands and
> > thousands of books which I read and then sell on ebay (see my auctions!).
> > I also see every film, if they don't come to my neighborhhod I go to New
> > York, Paris, Hong Kong and New Dehli to find them.  And I watch every
> > television sit-com and every drama on HBO - every episode!  And oh, every
> > album put out on every label I'm sure to give a listen. And I've been to
> > every gallery inthe world to see every exhibit.   And I can say with great
> > confidence that Heather Fuller's DOVECOTE is the best piece of cultural
> > expression made public Between January 1 and December 8, 2002.
> >
> > -m.
> 
> I congratulate you, Michael.  I think you should have told us all this
> before making your statement, though, so you wouldn't wrongly make us think
> you were the kind of nitwit who edits anthologies of mostly mediocre poetry
> and, on the basis of very little familiarity with what's out there, calls it
> the best poetry published in some year or another.  Sure, this won't bother
> the comfortable also mediocre who compose poetry and know what the editor
> rilly meant.  That's because even those mediocrities whose work failed to
> get in the anthology for that year can hope it will some other year.  But it
> needlessly lowers the morale of better poets.  A preference for accurate
> language over hype is no real burden and can make the world a nicer place
> for most of us.
> 
> --Bob G.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From ccooley  Mon Dec  9 00:28:10 2002
From: ccooley (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 21:28:10 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] art & empathy: to Ellen
In-Reply-To: <20021208134802.3311610619@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <IFEJKAJEJBEOJGHBHOCHEELDCCAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>

> Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 19:50:26 -0500
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> From: ellen smith <smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: empathy & art
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
> Crisman:  Having received, recently, 35 reading journals from
> undergraduates who were to apply various improvisation reading
> strategies

Sounds fun.

> to Harryette Mullen's extremely daunting book-length poem
> *Muse and Drudge*, I would say that much experimental poetry can
> elicit the shifting of responsibility that the Readymades did.

I haven't read the book, but I'll get it and read it on your recommendation.
I like daunting book-length poems as a general rule.

> Since
> much of what Mullen does is in the manner of Readymades (Like WCW and
> Moore, weaving snippets of others' words/phrases into her own text,

Yes I read WCW this way and certainly his idea that "anything can be made
into a poem" is a modern idea.

> even the most trite commonplaces, which take on new life through
> context or wordplay), it can elicit in readers the creative impulse
> (which, in effect, does cause "art" to resurrect in readers' hands
> after being "killed").  What I'm not sure about is where empathy fits
> in...unless you mean that, by being forced into the producer position
> (rather than the passive consumer position), the reader might
> empathetically come to know the producer position?

I went to Webster's to try to answer this.
Empathy: 1. the imaginative projection of a subjective state, whether
affective, conative or cognitive, into an object so that the object appears
to be infused with it : the reading of one's own state of mind or conation
into an object (as an artistic object).

This is a startling definition, at least to me, since it puts all of the
responsibility for empathy on the reader's "imaginative projection" (where I
believe it belongs).  I don't need to have any connection at all with the
producer of the object; the relationship can be directly with the object
itself.  Empathy, then, includes such phenomena as my admiration of
stainless steel drinking cups, though I doubt they are made with aesthetics
in mind.  (Or have I simply confirmed a marketer's prediction of my
response?)  I have known many people who love their car.  My brother loved
his Z3 when he'd only known it for three or four days.  We should remember
in this context Duchamp's amusement at the mechanization of eros.  This is
where empathy fits in: we are in love, through the act of imaginative
projection, with the manufactured objects that surround us.  But they also
bore us, anger us, entertain us, etc., all potentially empathic states.

> Of course, you
> can expect to hear a host of "slippery slope" type counterarguments
> to your claim, such as, where do you draw the line?

We live on this slippery slope.  Seems hospitable enough to me.

>Can't a mold
> stain on the wall also call forth an active, creative response from
> its viewer?

Yes, disgust.  Or tiredness at having to clean the wall.  Or fear at the
prospect of airborne disease.  And so on.

> But, of course, that was also what DuC was calling forth
> through his readymades?  A mad scramble on the part of viewers to try
> to articulate what they thought art would,could, should be?

Yes, I believe it was that, too.

> ellen s.





From Thom424  Mon Dec  9 00:45:51 2002
From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 00:45:51 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: NYTimes.com Article: U.S. Writers Do Cultural Battle Around the Globe
Message-ID: <1ad.d4c74a0.2b25880f@aol.com>

My apologies for this long-ish post, but I though it would be interesting to 
hear responses to it from the folks on this list. Sorry, too, if you've 
already read it.

Thom Tammaro
Moorhead, MN 

*****************************************************************

U.S. Writers Do Cultural Battle Around the Globe

December 7, 2002
By MICHAEL Z. WISE 

The Bush administration has recruited prominent American
writers to contribute to a State Department anthology and
give readings around the globe in a campaign started after
9/11 to use culture to further American diplomatic
interests. 

The participants include four Pulitzer Prize winners,
Michael Chabon, Robert Olen Butler, David Herbert Donald
and Richard Ford; the American poet laureate, Billy
Collins; two Arab-Americans, Naomi Shihab Nye and Elmaz
Abinader; and Robert Pinsky, Charles Johnson, Bharati
Mukherjee and Sven Birkerts. They were all asked to write
about what it means to be an American writer. 

Although the State Department plans to distribute the
60-page booklet of 15 essays free at American embassies
worldwide in the next few weeks, one country has already
banned the anthology: the United States. The Smith-Mundt
Act of 1948, renewed when the United States Information
Agency became part of the State Department three years ago,
bars the domestic dissemination of official American
information aimed at foreign audiences. 

"There were Congressional fears of the government
propagandizing the American people," said George Clack, the
State Department editor who produced the anthology. The
essays can, however, be read on a government Web site
intended for foreigners
(usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/writers). "We do not
provide that address to U.S. citizens," Mr. Clack said,
adding, "Technology has made a law obsolete, but the law
lives on." 

Despite the domestic blackout, the participants are focused
on the potential abroad. "There is the perception abroad
that Americans feel culturally superior and are
intellectually indifferent," said Mr. Ford, who won the
Pulitzer in 1996 for his novel "Independence Day." "Those
stereotypes need to be burst." He added that he was eager
to go to Islamic nations to help "humanize America" and
present a more diverse picture of public opinion than is
conveyed by the Bush administration. "With a government
like the one we have, when not even 50 percent of Americans
voted for the president, the diversity of opinion is not
represented," he said. 

Stuart Holliday, a former White House aide to President
Bush who is overseeing the anthology publication as
coordinator of the State Department's Office of
International Information Programs, said: "We're shining a
spotlight on those aspects of our culture that tell the
American story. The volume of material is there. The
question is how can it be augmented to give a clearer
picture of who we are." 

Before the cold war ended, the United States often sent
orchestras, dance troupes and other artists abroad to
infiltrate Communist societies culturally. Writers like
John Updike, Kurt Vonnegut, Edward Albee and E. L. Doctorow
gave government-sponsored readings in Eastern Europe that
used literature on behalf of American interests. 

"People lined up for blocks," recalled William H. Luers, a
former American ambassador to Czechoslovakia and later
president of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, speaking of
Mr. Updike's appearance at the embassy in Prague in the
mid-1980's. 

But the United States Information Agency, which ran that
campaign, was folded into the State Department in 1999, and
over the last 10 years such programs have been severely
reduced. 

Since 9/11, though, the State Department has increased its
efforts to communicate American values to overseas
audiences. Mr. Holliday described the anthology, for
example, as complementing efforts by Charlotte Beers, a
former Madison Avenue advertising executive who is now
under secretary of state for public diplomacy, to sell the
United States to often hostile Muslim populations. 

Her campaign includes "Next Chapter," a television show
broadcast by the Voice of America in Iran, a worldwide
traveling exhibition of photographs of the ravaged World
Trade Center site by Joel Meyerowitz, the distribution of
videos spotlighting tolerance for American Muslims and a
pamphlet showing Muslims as part of mainstream American
life. 

Christopher Ross, the State Department's special
coordinator for public diplomacy, has advocated reviving
official cultural programs abroad as a "cost-effective
investment to ensure U.S. national security" and a way to
combat "the skewed, negative and unrepresentative" image of
America that he says most people of the world absorb
through mass culture and communications. Yet even some of
the authors expressed mixed feelings about just how
effective such cultural exposure would ultimately prove. 

In an interview, Billy Collins quoted Auden's famous line
that "poetry makes nothing happen," but Mr. Collins
tempered that comment by adding: "I think there are some
cases where it can. I don't think a group of American
writers is going to bring peace to the Middle East, but it
puts something in the media that is a counterbalance to the
growling and hostilities that fill the pages. It would have
a positive and softening influence on things." And while
Mr. Collins said he has agreed to join a tour abroad, he
added, "It's not a particularly good time for unarmed
American poets to be wandering around Jordan and Syria." 

Ms. Abinader was more optimistic about the potential for
the literary initiative to change foreign perceptions. "I
don't think I'm going to grab a terrorist by the lapels and
say, `There's a better way of doing things,' " she said.
"But what you can do is inspire a different kind of power.
That's the power of the word." 

Some of the anthology's authors, paid $2,499 by the
government, praise the freedoms they enjoy in the United
States, but the collection by no means presents an
uncritical picture of the United States. Julia Alvarez, a
novelist and poet who moved from the Dominican Republic
when she was young, writes that America is not "free of
problems or inequalities or even hypocrisies." Robert Olen
Butler says that the United States, though `built on the
preservation of the rights of minorities, has sometimes
been slow to apply those rights fully." Michael Chabon
tells of crime and racial unrest in his hometown, Columbia,
Md. 

The poet Robert Creeley said that although the Sept. 11
attacks led to an outpouring of poetry to express sorrow,
this "passed quickly as the country regained its
equilibrium, turned to the conduct of an aggressive war
and, one has to recognize, went back to making money." 

Ms. Abinader, the daughter of Lebanese immigrants to
Pennsylvania, recalls being subjected to racist remarks by
her classmates because of her dark complexion. Later in her
academic career, she says, "feelings toward Arabs became
more negative and sometimes bordered on distrust, even from
my own colleagues." 

The other Arab-American in the volume, Naomi Shihab Nye,
was asked to contribute after the State Department took
note of an open letter she wrote "to any would-be
terrorists" the week after Sept. 11. "I beg you, as your
distant Arab cousin, as your American neighbor, listen to
me," she wrote in the letter distributed on the Internet
and printed in several Arabic-language newspapers. "Our
hearts are broken, as yours may also feel broken in some
ways we can't understand unless you tell us in words.
Killing people won't tell us. We can't read that message.
Find another way to live. Don't expect others to be like
you." 

Some 31,000 English-language copies of the new anthology
will be available abroad. Editions in Arabic, French,
Spanish and Russian are also being prepared. Additional
translations into two dozen other languages are expected,
with a total of about 100,000 copies likely to be
distributed in the next few years. Mr. Holliday said he
hoped that the essays would also be reprinted in foreign
newspapers and that students abroad would use the texts as
course material and to learn English. 

All but one of the articles appear for the first time in
the volume; the essay by Mr. Chabon is a reprint. 

Mr. Luers applauded the anthology but urged a more
coordinated and intensive program of cultural diplomacy.
"We have to find ways to convey not just propaganda but the
richness of this country's culture," he said. "It's
pathetic that we don't make an effort. Very educated people
abroad don't realize the depths of our culture behind
McDonald's and the violent movies." ?

Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company




From ccooley  Mon Dec  9 01:18:13 2002
From: ccooley (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 22:18:13 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] art & empathy: to Marcus
In-Reply-To: <20021208134802.3311610619@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <IFEJKAJEJBEOJGHBHOCHMELDCCAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>

Marcus wrote:

> Well, I disagree fundamentally with the entire notion that by signing
> something "as an artist" one has made it into art. That looks
> perilously close, to me, to the great western civilization notion of
> "discovery": steal whatever you please, so long as you claim you've
> discovered it instead of stolen it.  A friend of mine says, whenever
> someone mentions that Columbus discovered America "I see a fine-
> looking Cadillac over there.  I think I'll go discover it." To sign a
> bottle rack or a comb and claim it's thereby made into art is merely
> theft, not art.

Crisman wrote:
You can discover someone else's Cadillac as your own, but the consequence is
that you may have trouble with the law, because the context of the law
probably lies outside your control.  Columbus got away with his "discovery"
because the Spanish were able to control the context in which his action was
interpreted.  Your analogy is true, in my opinion, in that Spanish
occupation and Duchamp's "occupation" of the readymades occurred by writ.
But Duchamp did not claim to have made the object; instead, he was making
the new context in which the object was to be interpreted.

>
> Crisman Cooley:
> > This is true in the case also of a poem that creates empathy
> > in an observer.  The poem does not contain the meaning or the
> empathy; these
> > exist, if at all, in the mind of the observer. <
>
> This is silly.  Without the poem there can be nothing for the reader
> to read; nothing out of which to create art.  If you seriously hold
> that the art is only in the mind of the observer then everything is
> art: rape, murder, terrorism, the Grand Canyon, Niagra Falls, cloud
> formations, white noise, deep space, and silence.  Where there can be
> no useful distinction made between art and non-art there can be no
> art at all.

Yes I agree.  And the particular placement of the distinction is arbitrary,
though subject to negotiation and agreement.

> Holding that anything is art if a claimant says it is is
> a declaration that there is no art at all -- except perhaps the art
> of the scam or the con. And then the distinction between "good art"
> and "bad art" becomes merely a matter of salesmanship.  Good art is
> whatever the "market" will "buy" -- even if the medium of exchange is
> praise and reputation instead of money.

I believe that is correct.  Plato is great because we say so.

>
> Crisman Cooley:
> > I am very sorry (or perhaps excited at the opportunity present)
> that I have
> > found nothing in my investigation of contemporary poetry that
> matches the
> > power of the Readymades to destroy art so that art might
> continue to live.<
>
> Well, fortunately for you, then, I happen to have right here to hand
> the very thing you seek.  Below is one of thousands of poems I've
> written, called "Quotations", to my prospective clients.  I hope
> you're a prominent editor of a prominent literary magazine so that
> you can take this opportunity to con your audience into accepting
> "Marcus Bales" as synonymous with "Marcel Duchamp" as a creator of
> readymades.  Thank you in advance.

I like it.  But the price seems high.  $11,445?

>
> Bales&Price, Inc.
> Designer Glass, Wood, Polymers & Metal
> 540 E. 105th Street  Cleveland, Ohio  44108
> Phone: (216) 268-5520  Facsimile: (216) 268-5540
> website: http://www.designerglass.com
> email: marcus at designerglass.com
>
> SUMMARY QUOTATION 98-1005
> Rectangle, Diamond, and Gothic designs
> SGO 1/2" Lead Rectangles and Gothic;
> 1/4" Lead Diamonds & borders
> Pane		No of
> No.		Panes Description and size and design
> Price
>
> 1-3		3 Basement Doors 18-5/8x78-7/8 RECT
>   229
> 4-9		6 Basement Panels 19-1/4x47-1/4 RECT		  460
> 10,11		2 Library Panels 19-1/4x35-1/4 DIAM w/ medallions
>   785
> 12,13		2 Front Entry Panels 15-1/4x47-1/4 DIAM
>   235
> 14,19		2 DR Transoms 11-1/4x29-1/4 RECT
>   120
> 15,20		2 DR Windows 11-1/4x67-1/4 RECT			  150
> 16		3 DR Transoms 17-1/4x29-1/4 RECT
>   120
> 17,18		3 DR Windows 17-1/4x67-1/4 RECT w/ medallions	1230
> 21		3 Kitchen Transoms 19-1/4x19-1/4 DIAM		    98
> 22,23		3 Kitchen Windows 19-1/4x35-1/4 DIAM
>   179
> 24		1 Bathroom Window 19-1/4x29-1/4 DIAM		    49
> 25,26		2 Garage Windows 19-1/4x47-1/4 DIAM
>   138
> 27,28		2 Garage Windows 19-1/4x41-1/4 DIAM
>   158
> 29		2 Laundry Transoms 23-1/4x11-1/4 RECT		  120
> 30,31		2 Laundry Windows 23-1/4x29-1/4 RECT		  140
> 32,35,38	6 Eating Area Transoms 23-1/4x11-1/4 RECT
>   132
> 33,34,36,37
>   39,40		6 Eating Area Windows 23-1/4x47-1/4 RECT
> 	  475
> 41		1 Hearth Room Door 24-5/8x78-7/8 RECT		  109
> 42,44		5 Hearth Room Transoms 29-1/4x11-1/4 RECT
>   140
> 43,45		5 Hearth Room Windows 29-1/4x47-1/4 RECT
>   495
> 46,47		2 Den Room Windows 23-1/4x53-1/4 RECT		  170
> 48,49		6 Den Room Windows 19-1/4x29-1/4 RECT		  295
> 50		1 Den Bath Window 19-1/4x29-1/4 RECT, w/ medallion
>   350
> 51,54		2 Library Sidelights 19-1/4x67-1/4 RECT		  180
> 52,53		2 Library Doorlights 25-3/4x66-3/16 RECT, w/
> medallion	  860
> 55,56		2 Window Seat Windows 11-1/4x41-1/4 DIAM
>   190
> 57,58		3 Closet Windows 19-1/4x19-1/4 DIAM
>   150
> 59		1 Master Bath Toilet Window 19-1/4x19-1/4 DIAM	    49
> 60,61		6 M Bath Windows 23-1/4x35-1/4 DIAM
>   450
> 62,63		2 M BR Windows 19-1/4x29-1/4 DIAM, w/medallion	  885
> 64,65		2 M BR Doors 37-3/4x66-3/16 RECT
>   208
> 66,67		2 West Guest BR 23-1/4x53-1/4 RECT
>   118
> 68,69		2 South Guest BR 19-1/4x41-1/4 DIAM
>   158
> GOTHIC	1 Single arched window, gothic arch, w/tri-foils &
> pts	  785
> GOTHIC	3 arched windows, gothic arch
>   885
> 		3 Rectangle windows
>   650
> Total
> 11,995.00
> Sketch Deposit paid
> (    500.00)
> Balance
> 11,445.00
>
> Terms:  60% on approval of art; balance on delivery.  Please circle
> the options required, initial the circles, sign and date below, and
> return one signed copy with your deposit.  Please keep one copy for
> your records.
>
> _________________________________		_____________
> Accepted						Date
>
>
> Marcus Bales
>
> marcus at designerglass.com
> http://www.designerglass.com
>





From ccooley  Mon Dec  9 01:18:13 2002
From: ccooley (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 22:18:13 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1142 - 8 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20021208203003.3A99110639@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <IFEJKAJEJBEOJGHBHOCHOELDCCAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> [mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu]On Behalf Of
> new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 12:30 PM
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1142 - 8 msgs
>
>
> Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to
> 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> 	http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> 	new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> 	new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Best of 2002 II (Bob Grumman)
>    2. Re: empathy & art (Bob Grumman)
>    3. Re: Best of 2002 II (Bob Grumman)
>    4. Re: RE: empathy & art (JforJames at aol.com)
>    5. Re: Best of 2002 II (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
>    6. Poems by others: Ann Lauterbach, "Missing Ages" (Halvard Johnson)
>    7. Poems by others: Ann Lauterbach, "Missing Ages" (Halvard Johnson)
>    8. Fairchild (David Graham)
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 1
> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
> Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 13:15:40 -0500
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
> > According to Bob Grumman:
> > >
> > > > David, I think, for what it's worth that the best book of
> poetry this
> past
> > > > year was Heather Fuller's DOVECOTE.
> > >
> > > Excuse my crankiness, but surely you mean "the best book of poetry
> published
> > > in 2002 that you've read?"  Or have you read all the poetry books that
> were
> > > published this year?
> > >
> > > --Bob G.
> >
> > Bob, no, I've actually read every book of poetry published in the last
> > year, also every book of fiction and non-fiction and every children's
> > book.  I guess you could say I'm a voracious reader - thousands and
> > thousands of books which I read and then sell on ebay (see my
> auctions!).
> > I also see every film, if they don't come to my neighborhhod I go to New
> > York, Paris, Hong Kong and New Dehli to find them.  And I watch every
> > television sit-com and every drama on HBO - every episode!  And
> oh, every
> > album put out on every label I'm sure to give a listen. And I've been to
> > every gallery inthe world to see every exhibit.   And I can say
> with great
> > confidence that Heather Fuller's DOVECOTE is the best piece of cultural
> > expression made public Between January 1 and December 8, 2002.
> >
> > -m.
>
> I congratulate you, Michael.  I think you should have told us all this
> before making your statement, though, so you wouldn't wrongly
> make us think
> you were the kind of nitwit who edits anthologies of mostly
> mediocre poetry
> and, on the basis of very little familiarity with what's out
> there, calls it
> the best poetry published in some year or another.  Sure, this
> won't bother
> the comfortable also mediocre who compose poetry and know what the editor
> rilly meant.  That's because even those mediocrities whose work failed to
> get in the anthology for that year can hope it will some other
> year.  But it
> needlessly lowers the morale of better poets.  A preference for accurate
> language over hype is no real burden and can make the world a nicer place
> for most of us.
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 2
> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy & art
> Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 13:45:27 -0500
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
> > > > Marcus Bales:
> > > > Well it seemed to me at the time that "empathy" was being used to
> > > > mean something like "create a pleasurable response, the
> greater, more
> > > > sustained, and more complicatingly ramifying the better".
> >
> > Bob Grumman:
> > > Probably so.
> >
> > Then it seems as if we agree --
>
> About how "empathy" was used.
>
> > except that you go on thereafter at
> > some length apparently seeking a disagreement.
>
> What I thought I was doing was clarifying more exactly my position.
>
> > Marcus Bales:
> > > >I don't
> > > > think anyone is really disagreeing here on more than terminology,
> > > > unless you're going to insist on "pleasurable" in the sense that it
> > > > has to be only hedonistically pleasurable.
> >
> > Bob Grumman:
> > > I would insist on pleasurable in the sense of causing pleasure.  But
> that's
> > > probably terminological, too, since I would argue that poems that some
> > > people would say do not provide that
> > > do.  A eulogy, say, that on the surface causes sorrow, ultimately--if
> > > successful as a poem--causes more pleasure than pain.  (A
> sense of loss
> > > overcome--in one way, by a triumphant translation into an artwork, and
> by
> > > the beauties of that artwork.)
> >
> > Well, this is like "poetry is as good as it prompts action" -- the
> > question remains, "how much action, what kind of action, how soon?"
>
> You've lost me.
>
> > and the like.  If an eulogy causes pain to the widow but pleasure to
> > the deceased fellow's enemies, do you count that a successful poem or
> > not?
>
> I consider it successful as a poem to the degree that it causes aesthetic
> pleasure to an aesthespient (my latest term for receiver of an
> artwork).  A
> eulogy, to be successful, would have to cause asethetic pleasure to its
> aesthespients.  That it may cause pain or pleasure to someone for
> non-aesthetic reasons does not count.
>
>
> > Bob Grumman:
> > > I'm not sure what "hedonistic" means, by the way.  It seems
> to me almost
> > > entirely a propagandism meaning "pleasure I don't approve of" the way
> > > "license" means "the liberty to do what I don't approve of."
> I go along
> > > with the idea that some pleasures are superior to others.  But a poem
> that
> > > successfully expresses any pleasure is, for me, a success.
> >
> > I meant "hedonistic pleasure" in the sense of "pleasure there is no
> > denying as pleasure", as, for example, eating when hungry, drinking
> > when thirsty, having sex when aroused, and the like: unequivocal
> > pleasures, as opposed to the equivocal pleasures of art.
>
> So you don't think there's the kind of need for art that there is
> for food?
>
>
> > Marcus Bales;
> > > > After all, what is empathy
> > > > but a sustained, great, and complicatingly ramifying response?
> >
> > Bob Grumman:
> > > One thing it can be is a short-lived, tiny, unramifying response.  One
> can
> > > empathize with a man who has lost a penny as well as with a man whose
> house
> > > has burned down.<<
> >
> > Context is all in this case; the widow who adds her mite to the
> > offering, and the man who loses his very last penny may be people
> > with whom we empathize, but not in an "short-lived, tiny, unramifying
> > response".  With an ordinary fellow who loses a penny we are not
> > likely to empathize, Bob -- or even sympathize -- unless it is a
> > penny worth a good deal more than a penny.
>
> Come on, Marcus.  I was obviously showing the difference between
> degrees of
> empathy.  A poem can express empathy for small things and therefore be
> small--but successful.
>
>
> > Bob Grumman:
> > > I don't see empathy as complicatingly ramifying, a phrase I am using
> > > (because I can't offhand think of a better one) to mean something that
> > > connects to many things beyond itself in space and time--for instance,
> in
> > > simple terms, a poem that becomes part of your outlook and response to
> life
> > > for life--which will probably include empathy but need not.<<
> >
> > It seems to me that one must indeed empathize in order to see the
> > connections beyond a thing into space and time.  It is precisely
> > those things, or events, or people, who guide us to see those
> > connections with which or with whom we empathize -- that's what
> > empathy *means*, it seems to me.  You seem to have some private
> > definition of "empathy" that makes the use of the word to mean "a
> > sustained, great, and complicatingly ramifying response" or
> > "something that connects to many things beyond itself in space and
> > time" anathema to you.
>
> Why "anathema?"  I use "empathy" as getting sympathetically
> inside another's
> mind or heart, more or less.  For me it is thus social, as opposed to
> aesthetic, and art's main function, for me, is aesthetic, not social.  I
> suppose you could use it to mean getting into an artwork, but not to any
> advantage that I can see.
> >
> > Bob Grumman:
> > > More than that I probably can't say because it would involve my going
> into
> > > the details of my theory of aesthetics, which is too involved
> for me to
> get
> > > into here, and which would bore just about everybody here if
> I did, and
> were
> > > coherent, which is unlikely.
> >
> > Ah -- the predictable "I know way more about this than I'm willing to
> > say" ploy from Bob Grumman!  How ... predictable.
>
> You're right, Marcus.  I should have said that I've once again
> bween pushed
> by a master-mind to the limits of my knowledge of this subject
> and therefore
> can't go on.
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 3
> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
> Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 13:47:56 -0500
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>
> > Has anyone seen my _Post-Avant_, out this year from Pavement Saw?
> >
> > http://www.pavementsaw.org/postavant.htm
> >
> > Dan Zimmerman
>
> I have it but haven't had time to do more than skim it (also true of just
> about every other book of any kind I've picked up this year).  I
> do remember
> liking the few poems in it I had a chance to read!
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 4
> From: JforJames at aol.com
> Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 14:35:55 EST
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: empathy & art
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
> In a message dated 12/7/02 5:29:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> ccooley at overdomain.com writes:
>
> > Readymades appear at first
> >  glance to be the death of art.  In fact, they can act as its
> revivification,
> >  by placing the responsibility for meaning creation in hands
> and the mind of
> >  the observer.  This is true in the case also of a poem that
> creates empathy
> >  in an observer.  The poem does not contain the meaning or the empathy;
> these
> >  exist, if at all, in the mind of the observer.  This is the
> "role of the
> >  reader", as Umberto Eco calls it.
> >
> >  I am very sorry (or perhaps excited at the opportunity
> present) that I have
> >  found nothing in my investigation of contemporary poetry that
> matches the
> >  power of the Readymades to destroy art so that art might
> continue to live.
> >  (I wonder if poetry has missed out its opportunity to embrace
> Dadaism.  And
> >  I am open to enlightenment.)
> >
> Crisman, the problem with Dada is that it's a dead-end. An endpoint. You
> can't transcend...you can only retreat back into realm of the meaningful.
> R. Mutt's "Font" was an important provocation...a testing of a
> limit. After
> the
> limit is reached, to process can't really be repeated with any of
> the original
> shock, elan or wit. In fact, what is left behind, the art itself, becomes
> something
> of a historical novelty...it's value being the in "the act" or "the
> statement."
> While the breadth and depth of art can only be extended, with
> great effort,
> from within.
> Finnegan
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 5
> From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
> Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 14:54:33 EST
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>
> --part1_a3.34306ec4.2b24fd79_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> B. H. Fairchild's new book, the strange title of which is well
> known to this
> group.
>
> --part1_a3.34306ec4.2b24fd79_boundary
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> <HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF"
> FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">B. H. Fairchild's new book, the
> strange title of which is well known to this group.</FONT></HTML>
>
> --part1_a3.34306ec4.2b24fd79_boundary--
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 6
> From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
> To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 14:49:00 -0500
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ann Lauterbach, "Missing Ages"
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>
> Missing Ages
>
> 1.
>
> At times dry weight shifts vicariously on mental limbs like music
> hurting remotely.
>
> At times, fathers die and die, but
> biography is a false persuasion.
>
> Inhaling the night I am stitched to you
> with incendiary sorrow.
>
> A party? In costume, you say, and
> invited to dwell in a sea of lords and ladies?
> Quit smoking? Weep?
> And those magnolias, are they
> part of the wall, or of the rushing river
> with its vestal gashes arriving on a whim of connective tissue, on air?
>
> In a foreign land we will learn some songs.
> They will last as long as the next gold rush.
>
> 2.
>
> 				This is my r?sum?. Hire me.
> I am from January, where the winds are severe.
> I am an immigrant from evening, hire me.
> My father was a sweeper of secrets, a silk merchant
> in Vienna, he had no boots, he had no lotion for his skin.
> Hire me. This handkerchief is woven from ninety percent.
> My daughters are in Mexico on a jaunt. They have not
> read of the insurrection, they
> do not get CNN. This is my black scarf. This is my painting of a jar.
> Hire me. This is a photo of my husband
> taken when he was a young man in jail.
> I still remember sex, I can tell you stories
> of such women you will invite me to your trial. The snow
> stinks of yellow. Someone in a corner says thank you repeatedly.
> Hire me. I am what you do not know and will not miss.
>
> 3.
>
> The rapacious sky is as a winged figure
> flaunting its rapture, a film
> of film whose beginning middle and end
> we will never see. Knowledge is form.
> Wait for me under the apple tree on the blue sand.
> A discordant glue travels into courage, and the cut
> speeds along the finger's edge. Weather
> confounds our dreams, we wake humid
> with what we forgot while those who stay late
> sleep in the margins, fools
> for fools' gossip. Millions are spent
> on regular episodes from that life.
> Starved monks subsume an awful
> delay, snowbound, iconoclastic, their
> amnesia intact. I was a gallant trooper
> thru the history of Nordic exploration,
> I sank heavy water.
> I wear the soiled increment
> as a shield; my eyes break day by day
> in sublime iteration: unbearable choice among peers.
> We speak in tongues, yes?
> All instances fill and empty as
> the suction of love plays that rule, coming to stay
> in the habits of an angel skinned by disbelief.
> He raises the issue to emblematic stature:
> nature loves a plague as much as a rose.
>
> 4.
>
> The mutant veracity of almost.
> The steep incline of a heart.
> The dotted line of convention.
> The little afterlife of hazard.
> What spills from the mouth of the passionate dog.
> The voice of reason, its ineptitude with layers.
> The amulets of thieves; grief as such.
> The occasion purloined.
> A brother's best scarf.
> A brother's gray scarf.
> Between best and gray, an analogy.
> Icon of an ordinary okay.
> Between nine and fine.
> The makeshift bed.
> The national interest.
>
> 5.
>
> Which from among these absences will you choose?
> When the French girl arrives, no one will answer the phone for a week.
> If I were invited to sleep over, I would bring
> my dowsing rod, over which
> you could say your prayers, but if we
> touch the beautiful soul it will
> never stop raining.
> One by one, we are announced, and our
> names are a weightless carriage.
> Hire me. I live on the stairs. I go up and down.
>
> --Ann Lauterbach
>
> fr. *If in Time: Selected Poems: 1975-2000*
> [New York: Penguin Poets, 2001]
>
> orig. in *And For Example* (1994)
>
> Hal
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 7
> From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
> To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 14:53:45 -0500
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ann Lauterbach, "Missing Ages"
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>
> Missing Ages
>
> 1.
>
> At times dry weight shifts vicariously on mental limbs like music
> hurting remotely.
>
> At times, fathers die and die, but
> biography is a false persuasion.
>
> Inhaling the night I am stitched to you
> with incendiary sorrow.
>
> A party? In costume, you say, and
> invited to dwell in a sea of lords and ladies?
> Quit smoking? Weep?
> And those magnolias, are they
> part of the wall, or of the rushing river
> with its vestal gashes arriving on a whim of connective tissue, on air?
>
> In a foreign land we will learn some songs.
> They will last as long as the next gold rush.
>
> 2.
>
> 				This is my r?sum?. Hire me.
> I am from January, where the winds are severe.
> I am an immigrant from evening, hire me.
> My father was a sweeper of secrets, a silk merchant
> in Vienna, he had no boots, he had no lotion for his skin.
> Hire me. This handkerchief is woven from ninety percent.
> My daughters are in Mexico on a jaunt. They have not
> read of the insurrection, they
> do not get CNN. This is my black scarf. This is my painting of a jar.
> Hire me. This is a photo of my husband
> taken when he was a young man in jail.
> I still remember sex, I can tell you stories
> of such women you will invite me to your trial. The snow
> stinks of yellow. Someone in a corner says thank you repeatedly.
> Hire me. I am what you do not know and will not miss.
>
> 3.
>
> The rapacious sky is as a winged figure
> flaunting its rapture, a film
> of film whose beginning middle and end
> we will never see. Knowledge is form.
> Wait for me under the apple tree on the blue sand.
> A discordant glue travels into courage, and the cut
> speeds along the finger's edge. Weather
> confounds our dreams, we wake humid
> with what we forgot while those who stay late
> sleep in the margins, fools
> for fools' gossip. Millions are spent
> on regular episodes from that life.
> Starved monks subsume an awful
> delay, snowbound, iconoclastic, their
> amnesia intact. I was a gallant trooper
> thru the history of Nordic exploration,
> I sank heavy water.
> I wear the soiled increment
> as a shield; my eyes break day by day
> in sublime iteration: unbearable choice among peers.
> We speak in tongues, yes?
> All instances fill and empty as
> the suction of love plays that rule, coming to stay
> in the habits of an angel skinned by disbelief.
> He raises the issue to emblematic stature:
> nature loves a plague as much as a rose.
>
> 4.
>
> The mutant veracity of almost.
> The steep incline of a heart.
> The dotted line of convention.
> The little afterlife of hazard.
> What spills from the mouth of the passionate dog.
> The voice of reason, its ineptitude with layers.
> The amulets of thieves; grief as such.
> The occasion purloined.
> A brother's best scarf.
> A brother's gray scarf.
> Between best and gray, an analogy.
> Icon of an ordinary okay.
> Between nine and fine.
> The makeshift bed.
> The national interest.
>
> 5.
>
> Which from among these absences will you choose?
> When the French girl arrives, no one will answer the phone for a week.
> If I were invited to sleep over, I would bring
> my dowsing rod, over which
> you could say your prayers, but if we
> touch the beautiful soul it will
> never stop raining.
> One by one, we are announced, and our
> names are a weightless carriage.
> Hire me. I live on the stairs. I go up and down.
>
> --Ann Lauterbach
>
> fr. *If in Time: Selected Poems: 1975-2000*
> [New York: Penguin Poets, 2001]
>
> orig. in *And For Example* (1994)
>
> Hal
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 14:32:06 -0600
> From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
> To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Fairchild
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
> > THIS MESSAGE IS IN MIME FORMAT. Since your mail reader does not
> understand
> this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
>
> --MS_Mac_OE_3122202726_747322_MIME_Part
> Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
>
> I'll add my praise to Fairchild's book of the unfortunate title.
> Even more
> unfortunate, in my mind, is William Logan's review of it in The New
> Criterion
> (http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/21/dec02/logan.htm).  Fellow
> victims of the review include Mark Doty and Li-Young Lee.
>
> Here's some of what Logan has to say about Fairchild's work:
>
> ++++++++++++
> There=B9s nothing wrong with making noble figures of factory
> workers=8BStalin
> thought it a fine thing, and the good communist boilermakers who flexed
> their biceps in socialist realist painting were little different from the
> muscled coal-mining democrats in the post-office murals of the
> WPA. Long ag=
> o
> the Romantics had their shepherds, and before them Milton his
> shepherds, an=
> d
> before him Virgil and Theocritus their shepherds. There=B9s
> nothing wrong wit=
> h
> romanticizing the working man, except it=B9s usually the work of
> a deskbound
> poet whose nearest brush with hard labor comes, these days, from what he
> sees in the movies.
>
> There=B9s nothing wrong with it, but does the lice-ridden
> shepherd or the coa=
> l
> miner dying from black lung ever feel quite so noble? I=B9m
> reminded of a poe=
> t
> who on the basis of a few long-ago weeks sweeping factory floors
> became the
> laureate of the factory floor. Even when Fairchild touches on the grinding
> boredom of nine-to-five jobs, there remains a varnish of
> romance=8Bcondescension disguised as apotheosis. Soon the
> poet=B9s gaze, becaus=
> e
> he is a poet, turns instead to chokecherries that "gouge the
> purpled sky" o=
> r
> a sun that "dissolves behind the pearl-gray strands/ of a cirrus and the
> frayed, flaming branches/ along the creek"=8Bgorgeous scenes, but
> like a luri=
> d
> landscape by Bierstadt hanging behind a scrap pile.
> ++++++++++++
>
> For contrast, here is Anthony Hecht's blurb from the book jacket:
>
>  "There is no more lyric celebration of America's grandeurs  and
> desolations=8Bnot regarded here as separate facets of  our lives and
> landscapes, but as completely fused in our hopes and despairs=8Bthan this
> superb collection of poems.  Mr. Fairchild here surpasses himself in his
> unflinching  vision and exaltation of spirit. These poems do honor to our
> country, and should rank with the best of our poetry."
>  =8BAnthony Hecht
> -----------------------
>
> Read several poems from Fairchild's book at the Norton website:
>
> http://www.nortonpoets.com/fairchildb.htm
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> David Graham
> Professor of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>    Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>    Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>
> "We're writing the book on quality: personal,
> undergraduate education."
>    Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
>
> ----------
> From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
> Date: Sun, Dec 8, 2002, 1:54 PM
>
>
> B. H. Fairchild's new book, the strange title of which is well
> known to thi=
> s
> group.
>
> --MS_Mac_OE_3122202726_747322_MIME_Part
> Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
>
> <HTML>
> <HEAD>
> <TITLE>Fairchild</TITLE>
> </HEAD>
> <BODY BGCOLOR=3D"#FFFFFF">
> I'll add my praise to Fairchild's book of the unfortunate title.
> &nbsp;Even=
>  more unfortunate, in my mind, is William Logan's review of it in
> The New Cr=
> iterion (http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/21/dec02/logan.htm).
> &nbsp;Fell=
> ow victims of the review include Mark Doty and Li-Young Lee.<BR>
> <BR>
> Here's some of what Logan has to say about Fairchild's work:<BR>
> <BR>
> ++++++++++++<BR>
> There=B9s nothing wrong with making noble figures of factory
> workers=8BStalin t=
> hought it a fine thing, and the good communist boilermakers who
> flexed their=
>  biceps in socialist realist painting were little different from
> the muscled=
>  coal-mining democrats in the post-office murals of the WPA. Long
> ago the Ro=
> mantics had their shepherds, and before them Milton <I>his</I>
> shepherds, an=
> d before him Virgil and Theocritus <I>their</I> shepherds.
> There=B9s nothing w=
> rong with romanticizing the working man, except it=B9s usually
> the work of a d=
> eskbound poet whose nearest brush with hard labor comes, these
> days, from wh=
> at he sees in the movies. <BR>
> <BR>
> There=B9s nothing wrong with it, but does the lice-ridden
> shepherd or the coa=
> l miner dying from black lung ever feel quite so noble? I=B9m
> reminded of a po=
> et who on the basis of a few long-ago weeks sweeping factory
> floors became t=
> he laureate of the factory floor. Even when Fairchild touches on
> the grindin=
> g boredom of nine-to-five jobs, there remains a varnish of
> romance=8Bcondescen=
> sion disguised as apotheosis. Soon the poet=B9s gaze, because he
> <I>is</I> a p=
> oet, turns instead to chokecherries that &quot;gouge the purpled
> sky&quot; o=
> r a sun that &quot;dissolves behind the pearl-gray strands/ of a
> cirrus and =
> the frayed, flaming branches/ along the creek&quot;=8Bgorgeous
> scenes, but lik=
> e a lurid landscape by Bierstadt hanging behind a scrap pile.<BR>
> ++++++++++++<BR>
> <BR>
> For contrast, here is Anthony Hecht's blurb from the book jacket:<BR>
> <BR>
> &nbsp;&quot;There is no more lyric celebration of America's
> grandeurs &nbsp=
> ;and desolations=8Bnot regarded here as separate facets of
> &nbsp;our lives and=
>  landscapes, but as completely fused in our hopes and
> despairs=8Bthan this sup=
> erb collection of poems. &nbsp;Mr. Fairchild here surpasses
> himself in his u=
> nflinching &nbsp;vision and exaltation of spirit. These poems do
> honor to ou=
> r &nbsp;country, and should rank with the best of our poetry.&quot;<BR>
> &nbsp;=8BAnthony Hecht<BR>
> -----------------------<BR>
> <BR>
> Read several poems from Fairchild's book at the Norton website: &nbsp;<BR>
> <BR>
> http://www.nortonpoets.com/fairchildb.htm<BR>
> <BR>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>
> David Graham<BR>
> Professor of English, Ripon College<BR>
> grahamd at ripon.edu<BR>
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Home Page:<BR>
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html<BR>
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Poetry Library:<BR>
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html<BR>
> <BR>
> &quot;We're writing the book on quality: personal, <BR>
> undergraduate education.&quot;<BR>
> &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu<BR>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> ----------<BR>
> From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com<BR>
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu<BR>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II<BR>
> Date: Sun, Dec 8, 2002, 1:54 PM<BR>
> <BR>
> <BR>
> <BLOCKQUOTE>B. H. Fairchild's new book, the strange title of
> which is well =
> known to this group. <BR>
> </BLOCKQUOTE>
> </BODY>
> </HTML>
>
> --MS_Mac_OE_3122202726_747322_MIME_Part--
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> End of New-Poetry Digest
>
>





From ccooley  Mon Dec  9 02:23:58 2002
From: ccooley (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 23:23:58 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] art & empathy: to Finnegan
In-Reply-To: <20021208203003.3A99110639@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <IFEJKAJEJBEOJGHBHOCHEELECCAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>

Crisman wrote:
> >  (I wonder if poetry has missed out its opportunity to embrace
> Dadaism.  And
> >  I am open to enlightenment.)
> >

Finnegan wrote:
> Crisman, the problem with Dada is that it's a dead-end. An endpoint. You
> can't transcend...you can only retreat back into realm of the meaningful.
> R. Mutt's "Font" was an important provocation...a testing of a
> limit. After
> the
> limit is reached, to process can't really be repeated with any of
> the original
> shock, elan or wit. In fact, what is left behind, the art itself, becomes
> something
> of a historical novelty...it's value being the in "the act" or "the
> statement."
> While the breadth and depth of art can only be extended, with
> great effort,
> from within.
> Finnegan

Finnegan,
Yes, I agree that Dada is a dead-end.  R. Mutt cannot be clever again.
(Though sometimes in the men's room I fancy I'm in an art gallery.)  And,
more reluctantly, I agree retreat is necessary.  I guess I'm searching for
signs of that contemporary poetry has made the spiritual journey to dadaism
and come back.  One could not come back unchanged.  For example, I'm looking
for an intense preoccupation with the material at hand, with sound.  Said
another way, I'm looking for a deep interest in the expression plane, as
opposed to the content plane of language.  To me, that would be an
indication of an awareness of the influence of dadaism.  And when I hear
someone describe a contemporary poem as "iambic", I wonder whether our
thinking about speech rhythm has changed at all since the time of Homer.
I'm not suggesting that poetry should evolve, but it should, in my opinion,
use terminology capable of describing the content plane of everyday speech.
To describe speech rhythms in terms of iambs, trochees, dactyls and anapests
is clumsy and crude as describing the rhythms of Mozart (or Charlie Parker
or Toru Takemitsu) in the same way.  (The 40th Symphony is anapestic...)  A
clear case of operating on the patient with a spade.  However I want to
leave open the possibility (big enough now to fit a Chevy Suburban) that I
haven't come across the book of poetics that describes rhythm in a
comprehensive way.  Clearly though, this is not current poetic practice.
But also, I wish to avoid finding fault with people simply because they
haven't made my discovery.  (Oops--there's that word again--cover your
wallets...)

Crisman





From roger  Mon Dec  9 05:15:15 2002
From: roger (Roger Greenwald)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 05:15:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] reviews of NORTH IN THE WORLD
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.1.20021209050826.00b1ba90@pop.chass.utoronto.ca>

I've posted some reviews of

NORTH IN THE WORLD: SELECTED POEMS OF ROLF JACOBSEN

on my web site; the links are on this page:

http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~roger/niwrevus.html

I am expecting a few more reviews over the next months,
but thought this might be a good time to point
anyone who is curious at the reviews that have
appeared so far--just in case Anyone is looking
for a special gift for someone who loves poetry.
There is a link to three poems that are on line
(also to a complete table of contents).

Roger G.




From bobgrumman  Mon Dec  9 06:04:14 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 06:04:14 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
References: <200212090159.gB91xT67023043@dept.english.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <001701c29f72$b6998e00$964dfea9@j1c1k6>

> Ah, Bob, you seem to have taken my post much too seriously, just having
> some fun.  Of course I haven't read every book of poetry published this
> year, you silly goose,

You DINT!!  But you said you did!!

>and in my oringal post I just assumed that was
> implied.

Right.  But it is so easy to be explicit, and many people who speak of "the
best" mean what they say, which is annoying, and--I think--bad for the
morale of poets, in general.  As I tried to explain.

>As the editor of a poetry mag I get many, many books of poems
> sent to me (more than I should given my light number of reviews!)
>and I do
> read almost all of them.

I get many more than I can read right now, alas.

>The range is fairly wide.  And, all kidding
> aside, you really should check out Fuller's DOVECOTE.  It's a brilliant
> book which juts between contexts of urban D.C. and struggling Appalachian
> communities.

Well, maybe.  If you had said something about what it does as poetry that's
fresh and exciting instead of something about its subject matter, I'd be
more interested.

>It's certainly got nothing to do with the politics of
> anthologies, put out by Edge Books (also responsible for excellent books
> by Jennifer Moxley and Anselm Berrigan recently).  Incidentally, K. Silem
> Mohammad has an excellent review of Moxley's book in the soon to be
> released 11th issue of COMBO.  -m.

Well, glad I gave you an excuse to give a good book another plug, Michael.
But watch out--just about any time anyone gives me a chance to air my
grievances against the mainstream, I'll take it.
(And my annoyance was with them not you.)

--Bob G.




From bobgrumman  Mon Dec  9 06:13:16 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 06:13:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] art & empathy: to Marcus
References: <IFEJKAJEJBEOJGHBHOCHMELDCCAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>
Message-ID: <003101c29f73$f94ca380$964dfea9@j1c1k6>

Columbus discovered America.  To say he didn't is like saying van Gogh
didn't paint "Starry Night," but just put some other guy's paint on a canvas
and signed it.  There was no America before Columbus.

Or, to put it less politically incorrectly: the America Columbus discovered
consisted of a double-continent PLUS it's nautical connection to Europe.

--Bob G.




From bobgrumman  Mon Dec  9 06:19:10 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 06:19:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] art & empathy: to Finnegan
References: <IFEJKAJEJBEOJGHBHOCHEELECCAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>
Message-ID: <003901c29f74$cc5461a0$964dfea9@j1c1k6>

> Crisman wrote:
> > >  (I wonder if poetry has missed out its opportunity to embrace
> > Dadaism.  And
> > >  I am open to enlightenment.)

No.  Dada is central to a great deal of the work of several thriving schools
of poetry involved with visual poetry, infra-verbal poetry, sound poetry,
and the like.  I believe it inspired much of language poetry, and--with the
haiku--just about all of minimalist poetry.  The best poets influenced it
have, of course, used the techniques it made available for art, not non-art.

--Bob G.




From ron.silliman  Mon Dec  9 06:44:20 2002
From: ron.silliman (Ron)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 06:44:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman's Blog
Message-ID: <000001c29f78$54abc3b0$e20ac143@Dell>

Jennifer Moxley's The Sense Record:
Writing against fashion

Rachel Blau DuPlessis:
A master demonstrates how to give a reading

Poor Geoffrey Hill!

The importance of the invisible

The Age of Huts compleat

Hoa Nguyen's Your Ancient See Through

Daisy Fried:
What is a conservative poet?
(The poetics of a greater coherency)

Robert Kelly & the poetics of sound

"Style is Death":
Robert Kelly Finding the Measure

A poetics of procedure:
Robert Kelly's Axon Dendron Tree

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/






From marcus  Mon Dec  9 06:59:20 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 06:59:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy & art
In-Reply-To: <002c01c29ee9$fa6225e0$3707fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <3DF43F48.21959.1EBC87@localhost>

Marcus Bales:
> ... If an eulogy causes pain to the widow but pleasure to
> > the deceased fellow's enemies, do you count that a successful poem or
> > not?

Bob Grumman: 
> I consider it successful as a poem to the degree that it causes aesthetic
> pleasure to an aesthespient (my latest term for receiver of an artwork).  A
> eulogy, to be successful, would have to cause asethetic pleasure to its
> aesthespients.  That it may cause pain or pleasure to someone for
> non-aesthetic reasons does not count.<<

What percentage of aesthespients have to get what degree of pleasure 
before you consider it "successful"?  One aesthespient who finds it 
barely acceptable aesthetically? Is that enough to call the poem 
"successful"? What if that one aesthespient is the artist?  Is that 
enough?

> > Bob Grumman:
> > > I'm not sure what "hedonistic" means, by the way.  It seems to me almost
> > > entirely a propagandism meaning "pleasure I don't approve of" the way
> > > "license" means "the liberty to do what I don't approve of."  I go along
> > > with the idea that some pleasures are superior to others.  But a poem
> that
> > > successfully expresses any pleasure is, for me, a success.

Marcus Bales:
> > I meant "hedonistic pleasure" in the sense of "pleasure there is no
> > denying as pleasure", as, for example, eating when hungry, drinking
> > when thirsty, having sex when aroused, and the like: unequivocal
> > pleasures, as opposed to the equivocal pleasures of art.

Bob Grumman: 
> So you don't think there's the kind of need for art that there is for food?

As you can clearly see, we can't define "art", much less the "need 
for art" as well as we can define "food" or "need for food".  Provide 
a definition of "art" and "need for art" that you think correspond to 
the notions of "food" and "need for food" and we'll examine them to 
see if they correspond sufficiently to put "art" in the "food" 
category.
 
> > Marcus Bales;
> > > > After all, what is empathy
> > > > but a sustained, great, and complicatingly ramifying response?
> >
> > Bob Grumman:
> > > One thing it can be is a short-lived, tiny, unramifying
> > > response.  One can empathize with a man who has lost a 
> > > penny as well as with a man whose house has burned down.<<

Marcus Bales:
> > Context is all in this case; the widow who adds her mite to the
> > offering, and the man who loses his very last penny may be people
> > with whom we empathize, but not in an "short-lived, tiny, unramifying
> > response".  With an ordinary fellow who loses a penny we are not
> > likely to empathize, Bob -- or even sympathize -- unless it is a
> > penny worth a good deal more than a penny.

Bob Grumman: 
> Come on, Marcus.  I was obviously showing the difference between degrees of
> empathy.  A poem can express empathy for small things and therefore be
> small--but successful.<<

I understood you, as I think most people who read what you said 
understood you to be trying to say (as in fact you said right 
explicitly, too) that you don't think that "empathy" need count at 
all toward the success of a poem.  My point is that what counts as 
"empathy" is different from what counts as "sympathy" or 
"understanding" or "awareness" or "acknowledgement" and other points 
on the graduated scale from empathy to indifference to hostility.

It seems to me that we're trying to define our terms well enough to 
use them meaningfully here.

> > Bob Grumman:
> > > I don't see empathy as complicatingly ramifying, a phrase I am using
> > > (because I can't offhand think of a better one) to mean something that
> > > connects to many things beyond itself in space and time--for instance,
> in
> > > simple terms, a poem that becomes part of your outlook and response to
> life
> > > for life--which will probably include empathy but need not.<<

Marcus Bales:
> > It seems to me that one must indeed empathize in order to see the
> > connections beyond a thing into space and time.  It is precisely
> > those things, or events, or people, who guide us to see those
> > connections with which or with whom we empathize -- that's what
> > empathy *means*, it seems to me.  You seem to have some private
> > definition of "empathy" that makes the use of the word to mean "a
> > sustained, great, and complicatingly ramifying response" or
> > "something that connects to many things beyond itself in space and
> > time" anathema to you.

Bob Grumman: 
> Why "anathema?"  I use "empathy" as getting sympathetically inside another's
> mind or heart, more or less.  For me it is thus social, as opposed to
> aesthetic, and art's main function, for me, is aesthetic, not social.  I
> suppose you could use it to mean getting into an artwork, but not to any
> advantage that I can see.<<

Because "empathy" is different from "sympathy" -- and as for "more or 
less", empathy requires rather more than less.  You're still trying 
to argue merely semantically -- that "empathy" doesn't mean, to you, 
and therefore cannot mean to others, "a sustained, great, and 
complicatingly ramifying response" or "something that connects to 
many things beyond itself in space and time".  Your argument is 
merely semantical, and it hangs on your private definition of 
"empathy" -- a definition so narrowly rigid that one despairs of the 
notion of using words metaphorically around you for fear that your 
literalist lexicographical interpretations will inevitably miss the 
point -- and the poetry.


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From marcus  Mon Dec  9 06:59:20 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 06:59:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: empathy & art
In-Reply-To: <a05100300ba1932c68667@[165.190.124.251]>
References: <3DF30972.25951.1BEFC5@localhost>
Message-ID: <3DF43F48.17370.1EBB06@localhost>

ellen smith wrote:
> Presto!  The slippery slope argument I had anticipated.
> ems

And presto! -- again you seem to be mistaking a prediction of the 
type of argument for a rebuttal of that argument.  
 
Marcus

> >  > > > > Marcus Bales:
> >>  > > > the apt uses of those skills and techniques that successfully create
> >>  > > > empathy in the reader is good art, while inept uses that do not
> >>  > > > succeed in creating empathy in the reader is bad art, in my view.
> >>  >
> >>  > Crisman Cooley:
> >>  > > This is the same view I think that led Marcel Duchamp to the
> >>  > choice of the
> >>  > > Bottle Rack as a readymade.  Though I believe the Steel Comb is more
> >>  > > empathetic.
> >>  >
> >>  > Marcus Bales:
> >>  > I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here.
> >>
> >Crisman Cooley:
> >>  I was trying out your idea by choosing what I thought would be the most
> >>  extreme counter-example.  I like Alan Watts' notion that a thing and its
> >>  opposite are one.  That is why I felt at liberty to agree with you, while
> >>  proposing the antithesis of your idea.
> >
> >I was afraid you were going to say that.
> >
> >Crisman Cooley:
> >>  ... (There are "further vistas of irony"
> >>  in the "mystery" surrounding the choice of the Readymades.  John Cage (in
> >>  music) later also abdicated that choice too.)  Readymades appear at first
> >>  glance to be the death of art.  In fact, they can act as its revivification,
> >>  by placing the responsibility for meaning creation in hands and the mind of
> >>  the observer....<<
> >
> >Well, I disagree fundamentally with the entire notion that by signing
> >something "as an artist" one has made it into art. That looks
> >perilously close, to me, to the great western civilization notion of
> >"discovery": steal whatever you please, so long as you claim you've
> >discovered it instead of stolen it.  A friend of mine says, whenever
> >someone mentions that Columbus discovered America "I see a fine-
> >looking Cadillac over there.  I think I'll go discover it." To sign a
> >bottle rack or a comb and claim it's thereby made into art is merely
> >theft, not art.
> >
> >Crisman Cooley:
> >>  This is true in the case also of a poem that creates empathy
> >>  in an observer.  The poem does not contain the meaning or the empathy; these
> >>  exist, if at all, in the mind of the observer. <
> >
> >This is silly.  Without the poem there can be nothing for the reader
> >to read; nothing out of which to create art.  If you seriously hold
> >that the art is only in the mind of the observer then everything is
> >art: rape, murder, terrorism, the Grand Canyon, Niagra Falls, cloud
> >formations, white noise, deep space, and silence.  Where there can be
> >no useful distinction made between art and non-art there can be no
> >art at all.  Holding that anything is art if a claimant says it is is
> >a declaration that there is no art at all -- except perhaps the art
> >of the scam or the con. And then the distinction between "good art"
> >and "bad art" becomes merely a matter of salesmanship.  Good art is
> >whatever the "market" will "buy" -- even if the medium of exchange is
> >praise and reputation instead of money.
> >
> >Crisman Cooley:
> >>  I am very sorry (or perhaps excited at the opportunity present) that I have
> >>  found nothing in my investigation of contemporary poetry that matches the
> >>  power of the Readymades to destroy art so that art might continue to live.<
> >
> >Well, fortunately for you, then, I happen to have right here to hand
> >the very thing you seek.  Below is one of thousands of poems I've
> >written, called "Quotations", to my prospective clients.  I hope
> >you're a prominent editor of a prominent literary magazine so that
> >you can take this opportunity to con your audience into accepting
> >"Marcus Bales" as synonymous with "Marcel Duchamp" as a creator of
> >readymades.  Thank you in advance.
> >
> >Bales&Price, Inc.
> >Designer Glass, Wood, Polymers & Metal
> >540 E. 105th Street  Cleveland, Ohio  44108
> >Phone: (216) 268-5520  Facsimile: (216) 268-5540
> >website: http://www.designerglass.com
> >email: marcus at designerglass.com
> >
> >SUMMARY QUOTATION 98-1005
> >Rectangle, Diamond, and Gothic designs
> >SGO 1/2" Lead Rectangles and Gothic;
> >1/4" Lead Diamonds & borders
> >Pane		No of
> >No.		Panes Description and size and design			Price
> >
> >1-3		3 Basement Doors 18-5/8x78-7/8 RECT			  229
> >4-9		6 Basement Panels 19-1/4x47-1/4 RECT		  460
> >10,11		2 Library Panels 19-1/4x35-1/4 DIAM w/ medallions	  785
> >12,13		2 Front Entry Panels 15-1/4x47-1/4 DIAM		  235
> >14,19		2 DR Transoms 11-1/4x29-1/4 RECT			  120
> >15,20		2 DR Windows 11-1/4x67-1/4 RECT			  150
> >16		3 DR Transoms 17-1/4x29-1/4 RECT			  120
> >17,18		3 DR Windows 17-1/4x67-1/4 RECT w/ medallions	1230
> >21		3 Kitchen Transoms 19-1/4x19-1/4 DIAM		    98
> >22,23		3 Kitchen Windows 19-1/4x35-1/4 DIAM			  179
> >24		1 Bathroom Window 19-1/4x29-1/4 DIAM		    49
> >25,26		2 Garage Windows 19-1/4x47-1/4 DIAM			  138
> >27,28		2 Garage Windows 19-1/4x41-1/4 DIAM			  158
> >29		2 Laundry Transoms 23-1/4x11-1/4 RECT		  120
> >30,31		2 Laundry Windows 23-1/4x29-1/4 RECT		  140
> >32,35,38	6 Eating Area Transoms 23-1/4x11-1/4 RECT		  132
> >33,34,36,37
> >   39,40		6 Eating Area Windows 23-1/4x47-1/4 RECT 
> >		  475
> >41		1 Hearth Room Door 24-5/8x78-7/8 RECT		  109
> >42,44		5 Hearth Room Transoms 29-1/4x11-1/4 RECT		  140
> >43,45		5 Hearth Room Windows 29-1/4x47-1/4 RECT		  495
> >46,47		2 Den Room Windows 23-1/4x53-1/4 RECT		  170
> >48,49		6 Den Room Windows 19-1/4x29-1/4 RECT		  295
> >50		1 Den Bath Window 19-1/4x29-1/4 RECT, w/ medallion	  350
> >51,54		2 Library Sidelights 19-1/4x67-1/4 RECT		  180
> >52,53		2 Library Doorlights 25-3/4x66-3/16 RECT, w/ medallion	  860
> >55,56		2 Window Seat Windows 11-1/4x41-1/4 DIAM		  190
> >57,58		3 Closet Windows 19-1/4x19-1/4 DIAM			  150
> >59		1 Master Bath Toilet Window 19-1/4x19-1/4 DIAM	    49
> >60,61		6 M Bath Windows 23-1/4x35-1/4 DIAM			  450
> >62,63		2 M BR Windows 19-1/4x29-1/4 DIAM, w/medallion	  885
> >64,65		2 M BR Doors 37-3/4x66-3/16 RECT			  208
> >66,67		2 West Guest BR 23-1/4x53-1/4 RECT			  118
> >68,69		2 South Guest BR 19-1/4x41-1/4 DIAM			  158
> >GOTHIC	1 Single arched window, gothic arch, w/tri-foils & pts	  785
> >GOTHIC	3 arched windows, gothic arch				  885
> >		3 Rectangle windows					  650
> >Total 
> >	11,995.00
> >Sketch Deposit paid 
> >	(    500.00)
> >Balance 
> >	11,445.00
> >
> >Terms:  60% on approval of art; balance on delivery.  Please circle
> >the options required, initial the circles, sign and date below, and
> >return one signed copy with your deposit.  Please keep one copy for
> >your records.
> >
> >_________________________________		_____________
> >Accepted						Date
> >
> >
> >Marcus Bales
> >
> >marcus at designerglass.com
> >http://www.designerglass.com
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> -- 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From marcus  Mon Dec  9 07:26:43 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 07:26:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] art & empathy: to Marcus
In-Reply-To: <IFEJKAJEJBEOJGHBHOCHMELDCCAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>
References: <20021208134802.3311610619@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <3DF445B3.23115.37CED3@localhost>

> Crisman wrote:
> You can discover someone else's Cadillac as your own, but the consequence is
> that you may have trouble with the law, because the context of the law
> probably lies outside your control.  Columbus got away with his "discovery"
> because the Spanish were able to control the context in which his action was
> interpreted.  Your analogy is true, in my opinion, in that Spanish
> occupation and Duchamp's "occupation" of the readymades occurred by writ.
> But Duchamp did not claim to have made the object; instead, he was making
> the new context in which the object was to be interpreted.<<

Columbus did not claim to have "made" the continent, either, though 
now the neoconservative line is that since white people developed the 
resources of the continent in a way that the natives did not, the 
whites did in fact make the country and, by the virtue of that 
making, are entitled to keep that wealth to themselves.

Duchamp's claim that his signature, or some other similar claim, to a 
readymade created a work of art where one had not been before is a 
breathtakingly parochial view of art only available to those whose 
positions of privilege rely on the same sort of reasoning as the 
neoconservatives and the Spaniards:  that might makes right and 
privilege enshrines it.

The context you offer Duchamp as making in which the object was to be 
interpreted looks like theft to me -- unless you're prepared to 
accept that any claim to make art by arbitrarily signing, or 
otherwise making an artistic claim for, any object is in fact art.

But once again, if you claim that then you cannot make any reasonable 
distinction between art and non-art -- and where there is no 
reasonable distinction there can be no differences.  Thus rape, 
murder, and torture are just as much "art" as anything else in that 
case because you do not offer any indication of where to draw the 
line and why to draw it there.  

We live on a slippery slope at all times and that is why the mere 
identification of that slope as slippery is entirely insufficient to 
create level ground.  I'm not the one who is creating the slippery 
slope -- you are with your claim.  I'm only pointing out that the 
slope *is* slippery, and that we should build our momentary stay as 
best we can.  You and Ellen Smith seem to be happy sliding down the 
slope while claiming you're not sliding at all.

> > Crisman Cooley:
> > > This is true in the case also of a poem that creates empathy
> > > in an observer.  The poem does not contain the meaning or the
> > empathy; these
> > > exist, if at all, in the mind of the observer. <

Marcus Bales:
> > This is silly.  Without the poem there can be nothing for the reader
> > to read; nothing out of which to create art.  If you seriously hold
> > that the art is only in the mind of the observer then everything is
> > art: rape, murder, terrorism, the Grand Canyon, Niagra Falls, cloud
> > formations, white noise, deep space, and silence.  Where there can be
> > no useful distinction made between art and non-art there can be no
> > art at all.

Crisman Cooley: 
> Yes I agree.  And the particular placement of the distinction is arbitrary,
> though subject to negotiation and agreement.

Well if you agree that where no useful distinction can be made 
between art and non-art we cannot identify what is art and what is 
non-art, then you cannot reasonably continue to hold that meaning and 
empathy are not contained in the poem in its context.  Of course they 
are contained in the poem in its context -- that's what poems *do* is 
contain meaning in context.  Poems in languages we do not understand 
contain no meaning because we have no context, for example, in which 
to understand them.

Marcus:
> > Holding that anything is art if a claimant says it is is
> > a declaration that there is no art at all -- except perhaps the art
> > of the scam or the con. And then the distinction between "good art"
> > and "bad art" becomes merely a matter of salesmanship.  Good art is
> > whatever the "market" will "buy" -- even if the medium of exchange is
> > praise and reputation instead of money.

Crisman Cooley: 
> I believe that is correct.  Plato is great because we say so.

Ah -- then I misunderstood you above.  You do not agree that meaning 
is contained in a poem in context because that's what poems do -- you 
meant to agree that there is no, and can be no, meaning other than 
what the audience chooses to believe is there, irrespective of what 
the action or the artifact of the art presented was intended by the 
artist to mean.  For you it *is* all salesmanship, and there is no 
possibility of distinguishing "good art" from "bad art" except by 
appeal to rhetorical trickery.

> > Crisman Cooley:
> > > I am very sorry (or perhaps excited at the opportunity present)
> > that I have
> > > found nothing in my investigation of contemporary poetry that
> > matches the
> > > power of the Readymades to destroy art so that art might
> > continue to live.<

Marcus Bales:
> > Well, fortunately for you, then, I happen to have right here to hand
> > the very thing you seek.  Below is one of thousands of poems I've
> > written, called "Quotations", to my prospective clients.  I hope
> > you're a prominent editor of a prominent literary magazine so that
> > you can take this opportunity to con your audience into accepting
> > "Marcus Bales" as synonymous with "Marcel Duchamp" as a creator of
> > readymades.  Thank you in advance.

Crisman Cooley: 
> I like it.  But the price seems high.  $11,445?<<

The price was $11,945; I got a $500 deposit for sketching out some of 
the proposed window designs.  And I was paid in full -- so your 
notion that the price seems high is thereby refuted, since it is your 
principle, not mine, that what the market will pay is what a thing is 
worth. Everyone, in your view, is a whore, and we're all only 
dickering about our prices, right?






Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From smith948  Mon Dec  9 11:12:05 2002
From: smith948 (ellen smith)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:12:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: empathy & art
In-Reply-To: <3DF43F48.17370.1EBB06@localhost>
References: <3DF30972.25951.1BEFC5@localhost>
 <3DF43F48.17370.1EBB06@localhost>
Message-ID: <a05100300ba1a6d1449fb@[165.190.124.251]>

And you seem to be looking for arguments everywhere, even here.  Why 
don't you go back and read Crisman's response to my entire post in 
order to understand how this fits in?  You have provided one of your 
price quotes, and now one is hard-pressed to differentiate it from a 
Ready-made.  I read your price quote as a ready-made because that is 
the context and spirit in which it is offered.  I just don't find it 
a very compelling one, and for my money, I'd rather have one of the 
gothic windows.  More talk would need to focus on what would make it 
more compelling as a Ready-made.  Even more to the point, how it 
enables empathy in the sense in which Crisman defines it vis a vis 
dada...which, if you revisit the post...he had not made clear, but 
has since made clearer.  I think what happens in these threads is 
process, people dialogue and gradually clarify their ideas.  I do not 
think everyone posts with a mind to having an airtight argument at 
first go.  You are a great presence here because you call people to 
account.  But, really, I was not rebutting your argument, merely 
calling attention to the counterargument that I had anticipated.  If 
you read my post to Crisman, you'll see that I questioned what he 
said about Dada.  And this latter post was calling attention to the 
"test case" Ready-made you offered.  For someone who puts so much 
pressure on what words say and their precise usage in argumentation, 
you sure have read a lot into the 8 words below.
ellen s.


>ellen smith wrote:
>>  Presto!  The slippery slope argument I had anticipated.
>>  ems
>
>And presto! -- again you seem to be mistaking a prediction of the
>type of argument for a rebuttal of that argument. 
>
>Marcus
>
>>  >  > > > > Marcus Bales:
>>  >>  > > > the apt uses of those skills and techniques that 
>>successfully create
>>  >>  > > > empathy in the reader is good art, while inept uses that do not
>>  >>  > > > succeed in creating empathy in the reader is bad art, in my view.
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  > Crisman Cooley:
>>  >>  > > This is the same view I think that led Marcel Duchamp to the
>>  >>  > choice of the
>>  >>  > > Bottle Rack as a readymade.  Though I believe the Steel Comb is more
>>  >>  > > empathetic.
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  > Marcus Bales:
>>  >>  > I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here.
>>  >>
>>  >Crisman Cooley:
>>  >>  I was trying out your idea by choosing what I thought would be the most
>>  >>  extreme counter-example.  I like Alan Watts' notion that a thing and its
>>  >>  opposite are one.  That is why I felt at liberty to agree with 
>>you, while
>>  >>  proposing the antithesis of your idea.
>>  >
>>  >I was afraid you were going to say that.
>>  >
>>  >Crisman Cooley:
>>  >>  ... (There are "further vistas of irony"
>>  >>  in the "mystery" surrounding the choice of the Readymades. 
>>John Cage (in
>>  >>  music) later also abdicated that choice too.)  Readymades 
>>appear at first
>>  >>  glance to be the death of art.  In fact, they can act as its 
>>revivification,
>>  >>  by placing the responsibility for meaning creation in hands 
>>and the mind of
>>  >>  the observer....<<
>>  >
>>  >Well, I disagree fundamentally with the entire notion that by signing
>>  >something "as an artist" one has made it into art. That looks
>>  >perilously close, to me, to the great western civilization notion of
>>  >"discovery": steal whatever you please, so long as you claim you've
>>  >discovered it instead of stolen it.  A friend of mine says, whenever
>>  >someone mentions that Columbus discovered America "I see a fine-
>>  >looking Cadillac over there.  I think I'll go discover it." To sign a
>>  >bottle rack or a comb and claim it's thereby made into art is merely
>>  >theft, not art.
>>  >
>>  >Crisman Cooley:
>>  >>  This is true in the case also of a poem that creates empathy
>>  >>  in an observer.  The poem does not contain the meaning or the 
>>empathy; these
>>  >>  exist, if at all, in the mind of the observer. <
>>  >
>>  >This is silly.  Without the poem there can be nothing for the reader
>>  >to read; nothing out of which to create art.  If you seriously hold
>  > >that the art is only in the mind of the observer then everything is
>>  >art: rape, murder, terrorism, the Grand Canyon, Niagra Falls, cloud
>>  >formations, white noise, deep space, and silence.  Where there can be
>>  >no useful distinction made between art and non-art there can be no
>>  >art at all.  Holding that anything is art if a claimant says it is is
>>  >a declaration that there is no art at all -- except perhaps the art
>>  >of the scam or the con. And then the distinction between "good art"
>>  >and "bad art" becomes merely a matter of salesmanship.  Good art is
>>  >whatever the "market" will "buy" -- even if the medium of exchange is
>>  >praise and reputation instead of money.
>  > >
>>  >Crisman Cooley:
>>  >>  I am very sorry (or perhaps excited at the opportunity 
>>present) that I have
>>  >>  found nothing in my investigation of contemporary poetry that 
>>matches the
>>  >>  power of the Readymades to destroy art so that art might 
>>continue to live.<
>>  >
>>  >Well, fortunately for you, then, I happen to have right here to hand
>>  >the very thing you seek.  Below is one of thousands of poems I've
>>  >written, called "Quotations", to my prospective clients.  I hope
>>  >you're a prominent editor of a prominent literary magazine so that
>>  >you can take this opportunity to con your audience into accepting
>>  >"Marcus Bales" as synonymous with "Marcel Duchamp" as a creator of
>>  >readymades.  Thank you in advance.
>>  >
>>  >Bales&Price, Inc.
>>  >Designer Glass, Wood, Polymers & Metal
>>  >540 E. 105th Street  Cleveland, Ohio  44108
>>  >Phone: (216) 268-5520  Facsimile: (216) 268-5540
>>  >website: http://www.designerglass.com
>>  >email: marcus at designerglass.com
>>  >
>>  >SUMMARY QUOTATION 98-1005
>>  >Rectangle, Diamond, and Gothic designs
>>  >SGO 1/2" Lead Rectangles and Gothic;
>>  >1/4" Lead Diamonds & borders
>>  >Pane		No of
>>  >No.		Panes Description and size and design			Price
>>  >
>>  >1-3		3 Basement Doors 18-5/8x78-7/8 RECT			  229
>>  >4-9		6 Basement Panels 19-1/4x47-1/4 RECT		  460
>>  >10,11		2 Library Panels 19-1/4x35-1/4 DIAM w/ 
>>medallions	  785
>>  >12,13		2 Front Entry Panels 15-1/4x47-1/4 DIAM		  235
>>  >14,19		2 DR Transoms 11-1/4x29-1/4 RECT 
>>		  120
>>  >15,20		2 DR Windows 11-1/4x67-1/4 RECT			  150
>>  >16		3 DR Transoms 17-1/4x29-1/4 RECT			  120
>>  >17,18		3 DR Windows 17-1/4x67-1/4 RECT w/ medallions	1230
>>  >21		3 Kitchen Transoms 19-1/4x19-1/4 DIAM		    98
>>  >22,23		3 Kitchen Windows 19-1/4x35-1/4 DIAM 
>>		  179
>>  >24		1 Bathroom Window 19-1/4x29-1/4 DIAM		    49
>>  >25,26		2 Garage Windows 19-1/4x47-1/4 DIAM 
>>		  138
>>  >27,28		2 Garage Windows 19-1/4x41-1/4 DIAM 
>>		  158
>>  >29		2 Laundry Transoms 23-1/4x11-1/4 RECT		  120
>>  >30,31		2 Laundry Windows 23-1/4x29-1/4 RECT		  140
>>  >32,35,38	6 Eating Area Transoms 23-1/4x11-1/4 RECT		  132
>>  >33,34,36,37
>>  >   39,40		6 Eating Area Windows 23-1/4x47-1/4 RECT
>>  >		  475
>>  >41		1 Hearth Room Door 24-5/8x78-7/8 RECT		  109
>>  >42,44		5 Hearth Room Transoms 29-1/4x11-1/4 RECT 
>>		  140
>>  >43,45		5 Hearth Room Windows 29-1/4x47-1/4 RECT 
>>		  495
>>  >46,47		2 Den Room Windows 23-1/4x53-1/4 RECT		  170
>>  >48,49		6 Den Room Windows 19-1/4x29-1/4 RECT		  295
>>  >50		1 Den Bath Window 19-1/4x29-1/4 RECT, w/ medallion	  350
>>  >51,54		2 Library Sidelights 19-1/4x67-1/4 RECT		  180
>>  >52,53		2 Library Doorlights 25-3/4x66-3/16 RECT, w/ 
>>medallion	  860
>>  >55,56		2 Window Seat Windows 11-1/4x41-1/4 DIAM 
>>		  190
>>  >57,58		3 Closet Windows 19-1/4x19-1/4 DIAM 
>>		  150
>>  >59		1 Master Bath Toilet Window 19-1/4x19-1/4 DIAM	    49
>>  >60,61		6 M Bath Windows 23-1/4x35-1/4 DIAM 
>>		  450
>>  >62,63		2 M BR Windows 19-1/4x29-1/4 DIAM, w/medallion	  885
>>  >64,65		2 M BR Doors 37-3/4x66-3/16 RECT 
>>		  208
>>  >66,67		2 West Guest BR 23-1/4x53-1/4 RECT 
>>		  118
>>  >68,69		2 South Guest BR 19-1/4x41-1/4 DIAM 
>>		  158
>>  >GOTHIC	1 Single arched window, gothic arch, w/tri-foils & pts	  785
>>  >GOTHIC	3 arched windows, gothic arch				  885
>>  >		3 Rectangle windows					  650
>>  >Total
>>  >	11,995.00
>>  >Sketch Deposit paid
>>  >	(    500.00)
>>  >Balance
>>  >	11,445.00
>>  >
>>  >Terms:  60% on approval of art; balance on delivery.  Please circle
>>  >the options required, initial the circles, sign and date below, and
>  > >return one signed copy with your deposit.  Please keep one copy for
>>  >your records.
>>  >
>>  >_________________________________		_____________
>>  >Accepted						Date
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >Marcus Bales
>>  >
>>  >marcus at designerglass.com
>>  >http://www.designerglass.com
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >_______________________________________________
>>  >New-Poetry mailing list
>>  >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>  >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>>  --
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  New-Poetry mailing list
>>  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>
>Marcus Bales
>
>marcus at designerglass.com
>http://www.designerglass.com
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


-- 



From gmguddi  Mon Dec  9 09:53:35 2002
From: gmguddi (gmguddi at ilstu.edu)
Date: Mon,  9 Dec 2002 08:53:35 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
Message-ID: <1039445615.3df4ae6f3abf5@webmail2.ilstu.edu>

Yes but Tony, is it THE BEST??

------------------------------------------------------------
Illinois State University Webmail https://webmail2.ilstu.edu



From marcus  Mon Dec  9 10:49:19 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 10:49:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: empathy & art
In-Reply-To: <a05100300ba1a6d1449fb@[165.190.124.251]>
References: <3DF43F48.17370.1EBB06@localhost>
Message-ID: <3DF4752F.29382.726A9E@localhost>

Ellen Smith:
> ... You have provided one of your 
> price quotes, and now one is hard-pressed to differentiate it from a 
> Ready-made.  I read your price quote as a ready-made because that is 
> the context and spirit in which it is offered.  I just don't find it 
> a very compelling one, and for my money, I'd rather have one of the 
> gothic windows.<<

Sure, and I'd rather have a comb or a rack, unsigned by any artist 
trying to make it a readymade, too -- that's the point, and thanks 
for making it.  The signature of the artist, the claim of the artist 
that by looking at it as it makes it art, is nonsense.  Defending 
that claim as a critic is nonsense on stilts.

Ellen Smith:
> ... I was not rebutting your argument, merely 
> calling attention to the counterargument that I had anticipated. <<

But this, too, this comment that you are "merely calling attention" 
is trivial at best without also trying to rebut the argument you're 
predicting or calling attention to.  I, too, can predict the 
strategies you'll use to try to put forward your views, but the mere 
prediction of your strategies ought not count against those 
strategies.  The question is whether you can make a reasonable case, 
not whether you're going to try.  Predicting you're going to try does 
not, and ought not, get me any more credit that you got, or deserve, 
for predicting that someone would make this or that response.

I agree that we're involved in a process of backing and forthing to 
try to come at least to some realization about where our respective 
positions are incompatible as well as, it is a consummation devoutly 
to be wished, where we may agree.  


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From marcus  Mon Dec  9 11:01:34 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 11:01:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: empathy & art
In-Reply-To: <3DF4752F.29382.726A9E@localhost>
References: <a05100300ba1a6d1449fb@[165.190.124.251]>
Message-ID: <3DF4780E.16899.7DA365@localhost>

> Ellen Smith:
> > ... You have provided one of your 
> > price quotes, and now one is hard-pressed to differentiate it from a 
> > Ready-made.  I read your price quote as a ready-made because that is 
> > the context and spirit in which it is offered.  I just don't find it 
> > a very compelling one, and for my money, I'd rather have one of the 
> > gothic windows.<<
> 
> Sure, and I'd rather have a comb or a rack, unsigned by any artist 
> trying to make it a readymade, too -- that's the point, and thanks 
> for making it.  The signature of the artist, the claim of the artist 
> that by looking at it as it makes it art, is nonsense.  Defending 
> that claim as a critic is nonsense on stilts.

That should be "The signature of the artist, the claim of the artist 
that by looking at it as art makes it art is nonsense."  Sorry for 
any confusion.


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From GrahamD  Mon Dec  9 10:56:12 2002
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 09:56:12 -0600 
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: NYTimes.com Article
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E87019@mail.ripon.edu>

Fascinating.  One note:  buried in the article is the URL where you can find
the texts that Americans are (bizarrely) not allowed to read in print.  So
far I've looked at the articles by Billy Collins, Robert Pinsky, and Naomi
Shihab Nye--well worth a look.

http://164.109.48.86/products/pubs/writers/

============================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality:  personal, 
undergraduate education."
Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> *****************************************************************
> 
> U.S. Writers Do Cultural Battle Around the Globe
> 
> 



From halvard  Mon Dec  9 10:40:39 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 10:40:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Nazim Hikmet, "Optimistic Man"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEGEFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Optimistic Man

as a child he never plucked the wings off flies
he didn't tie tin cans to cats' tails
or imprison beetles in matchboxes
or destroy anthills
he grew up
and all these things we done to him
I was at his bedside when he died
he said read me a poem
about the sun and the sea
about nuclear reactors and satellites
about the greatness of humanity

		6 December 1958, Baku

--Nazim Hikmet

tr. fr. Turkish by Randy Blasing and Mutlu Konuk

fr. *The Last Believer in Words: an anthology of
poems in translation from the pages of Poetry East*
ed. Richard Jones, 1998


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard






From lattaj  Mon Dec  9 11:08:20 2002
From: lattaj (John Latta)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:08:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2
In-Reply-To: <1039445615.3df4ae6f3abf5@webmail2.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.44.0212091102560.17895-100000@millipede.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>

Unn-unnnh, Gudding, a book what's title
was used before (_and_ by a COUTIER, a RICH
man, and a SAP) cain't be THE BEST.

THE BEST was MY BOOK, called _Breeze_ and
just out from the University of Notre Dame
Press.

Tony knows. Everything else is doodly-squat.

John "Poetry ain't no DEfense" Latta


On Mon, 9 Dec 2002 gmguddi at ilstu.edu wrote:

> Yes but Tony, is it THE BEST??
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Illinois State University Webmail https://webmail2.ilstu.edu
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From FanwoodJEL  Mon Dec  9 11:18:45 2002
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 11:18:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2
Message-ID: <1F5A72EE.516AA077.0B0E6811@aol.com>

My mother can beat up your mother.

Jeffrey Levine

In a message dated 12/9/2002 11:08:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, lattaj at umich.edu writes:

> 
> 
> Unn-unnnh, Gudding, a book what's title
> was used before (_and_ by a COUTIER, a RICH
> man, and a SAP) cain't be THE BEST.
> 
> THE BEST was MY BOOK, called _Breeze_ and
> just out from the University of Notre Dame
> Press.
> 
> Tony knows. Everything else is doodly-squat.
> 
> John "Poetry ain't no DEfense" Latta
> 
> 
> On Mon, 9 Dec 2002 gmguddi at ilstu.edu wrote:
> 
> > Yes but Tony, is it THE BEST??
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > Illinois State University Webmail 
> https://webmail2.ilstu.edu
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 



From Henry_Gould  Mon Dec  9 11:34:40 2002
From: Henry_Gould (Henry Gould)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 11:34:40 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: re: Iraq
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021209113358.00aaa5a0@postoffice.brown.edu>

Sorry for multiple mailings. . . - Henry


>I thought this was a pretty interesting article (below).  Still trying to 
>figure out where I stand.   I respect the complexity of these writers' 
>responses.  But I also wonder if there isn't a sort of lack of context, or 
>over-abstraction, to their notions of democracy.  I guess I'm closest at 
>the moment to the position of David Rieff, among these.
>
>I think a key thing to consider is what, exactly, would change by means of 
>a "regime change" in Iraq.  My feeling is that social conditions will not 
>change that much simply by removing Hussein by force.  And the US is 
>involved in a deep contradiction by its dependence on the Saudi oil 
>oligarchy and its support for other authoritarian governments in the 
>middle East to protect the status quo.  The idea that we're going to bring 
>western-style freedom to Iraq rings a little hollow in that context.
>
>I am thinking now that what is needed is not exactly an anti-war campaign, 
>but a civil rights/social justice campaign.  That is, the US & the Bush 
>administration's newfound ideals ("democracy for Iraq") need to be held to 
>account across the board.  That is, we need to ask how a US government 
>that is systematically marginalizing social welfare for anyone beneath the 
>top 5% - the super-rich - right in the US; that is selling out the 
>environment to the oil interests; that upholds trade barriers & 
>farm/textile subsidies which make a mockery of free trade for poor 
>nations; that continues to pander to the Saudis and other authoritarian 
>regimes to the detriment of their populations - how this administration 
>can claim to be forwarding ideals of democracy, equality, and civil liberties?
>
>I guess what I'm thinking is that the power players - the Bush 
>administration, the Saudis, Saddam, Al Qaeda - all have one thing in 
>common: they don't want you to think.  Al Qaeda doesn't want you to think 
>at all; Saddam & the Saudis don't want you to think outside approved 
>channels; the Bush administration doesn't want you to think about the 
>larger picture.   A critique needs to be made that you cannot provide 
>security or freedom by force; only justice can lay the groundwork for 
>that.  (In fact an "FBI spokesman" made just that point today (reported by 
>Reuters), saying that it doesn't matter that much whether Bin Laden is 
>around or not, if you don't address the social conditions which create 
>militancy.  He called for a kind of Marshall Plan for the Middle 
>East.  I'm sure Bush & the FBI have their own reasons for downplaying Al 
>Qaeda right now - in some perverse sense he's useful to both the Saudis 
>and the US oil interests - but the "spokesman's" point has merits.)
>
>Even if Saddam does indeed have weapons of mass destruction; even if the 
>US gets UN approval to make war against Saddam; the outcome will not 
>change conditions that much (at least not outside Iraq.  Inside Iraq, 
>Saddam's downfall may be welcomed.)  The pros & cons of a war against Iraq 
>are in the long run a side issue.  Instead of simply opposing war on 
>principle, we should be laying pragmatic proposals on the table, aiming 
>for those things that war -- whether Saddam goes or not - can't ever achieve.
>
>Henry
>
>
>>This article from NYTimes.com
>>has been sent to you by henry_gould at brown.edu.
>>
>>
>>
>>The Liberal Quandary Over Iraq
>>
>>December 8, 2002
>>By GEORGE PACKER
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>If you're a liberal, why haven't you joined the antiwar
>>movement? More to the point, why is there no antiwar
>>movement that you'd want to join? Troops and equipment are
>>pouring into the Persian Gulf region in preparation for
>>what could be the largest, riskiest, most controversial
>>American military venture since Vietnam. According to a
>>poll released the first week of December, 40 percent of
>>Democrats oppose a war that has been all but scheduled for
>>sometime in the next two months. So where are the
>>antiwarriors?
>>
>>In fact, a small, scattered movement is beginning to stir.
>>On Oct. 26, tens of thousands of people turned out in San
>>Francisco, Washington and other cities to protest against a
>>war. Other demonstrations are planned for Jan. 18 and 19.
>>By then an invasion could be under way, and if it gets
>>bogged down around Baghdad with heavy American and Iraqi
>>civilian casualties, or if it sets off a chain reaction of
>>regional conflicts, antiwar protests could grow. But this
>>movement has a serious liability, one that will just about
>>guarantee its impotence: it's controlled by the furthest
>>reaches of the American left. Speakers at the
>>demonstrations voice unnuanced slogans like ''No Sanctions,
>>No Bombing'' and ''No Blood for Oil.'' As for what should
>>be done to keep this mass murderer and his weapons in
>>check, they have nothing to say at all. This is not a
>>constructive liberal antiwar movement.
>>
>>So let me rephrase the question. Why there is no organized
>>liberal opposition to the war?
>>
>>The answer to this question involves an interesting
>>history, and it sheds light on the difficulties now
>>confronting American liberals. The history goes back 10
>>years, when a war broke out in the middle of Europe. This
>>war changed the way many American liberals, particularly
>>liberal intellectuals, saw their country. Bosnia turned
>>these liberals into hawks. People who from Vietnam on had
>>never met an American military involvement they liked were
>>now calling for U.S. air strikes to defend a multiethnic
>>democracy against Serbian ethnic aggression. Suddenly the
>>model was no longer Vietnam, it was World War II -- armed
>>American power was all that stood in the way of genocide.
>>Without the cold war to distort the debate, and with the
>>inspiring example of the East bloc revolutions of 1989
>>still fresh, a number of liberal intellectuals in this
>>country had a new idea. These writers and academics wanted
>>to use American military power to serve goals like human
>>rights and democracy -- especially when it was clear that
>>nobody else would do it.
>>
>>Many of them had cut their teeth in the antiwar movement of
>>the 1960's, but by the early 90's, when some of them made
>>trips to besieged Sarajevo, they had resolved their own
>>private Vietnam syndromes. Together -- hardly vast in their
>>numbers, but influential -- they advocated a new role for
>>America in the world, which came down to American power on
>>behalf of American ideals.
>>
>>Against the liberal hawks there were two opposing
>>tendencies. One was conservative: it loathed the idea of
>>the American military being used for humanitarian missions
>>and nation building and other forms of ''social work.''
>>This was the view of George W. Bush when he took office,
>>and of all his key advisers. The other opposing tendency
>>was leftist: it continued to view any U.S. military action
>>as imperialist. This thinking prompted Noam Chomsky to leap
>>to the defense of Slobodan Milosevic, and it dominates the
>>narrow ideology of the new Iraq antiwar movement.
>>Throughout the 90's, between the reflexively antiwar left
>>and the coldblooded right, liberal hawks articulated the
>>case for American engagement -- if need be, military
>>engagement -- in the chaotic world of the post-cold war.
>>And for 10 years of wars -- first in Bosnia, then Haiti,
>>East Timor, Kosovo and, last year, in Afghanistan, which
>>was a war of national security but had human rights as a
>>side benefit -- what might be called the Bosnia consensus
>>held.
>>
>>But on the eve of what looks like the next American war,
>>the Bosnia consensus has fallen apart. The argument that
>>has broken out among these liberal hawks over Iraq is as
>>fierce in its way as anything since Vietnam. This time the
>>argument is taking place not just between people but within
>>them, where the dilemmas and conflicts are all the more
>>tormenting. What makes the agony over Iraq particularly
>>intense is the new role of conservatives. Members of the
>>Bush administration who had nothing but contempt for human
>>rights talk until the day before yesterday have grabbed the
>>banner of democracy and are waving it on behalf of the
>>long-suffering Iraqi people. For liberal hawks, this is
>>painful to watch.
>>
>>In this strange interlude, with everyone waiting for war,
>>I've had extended conversations with a number of these
>>Bosnian-generation liberal intellectuals -- the ones who
>>have done the most thinking and writing about how American
>>power can be turned to good ends as well as bad, who don't
>>see human rights and democracy as idealistic delusions, and
>>who are struggling to figure out Iraq. I'm in their
>>position; maybe you are, too. This Bosnian generation of
>>liberal hawks is a minority within a minority, but they
>>hold an important place in American public life, having
>>worked out a new idea about America's role in the post-cold
>>war world long before Sept. 11 woke the rest of the country
>>up. An antiwar movement that seeks a broad appeal and an
>>intelligent critique needs them. Oddly enough, President
>>Bush needs them, too. The one level on which he hasn't even
>>tried to make a case is the level of ideas. These liberal
>>hawks could give a voice to his war aims, which he has
>>largely kept to himself. They could make the case for war
>>to suspicious Europeans and to wavering fellow Americans.
>>They might even be able to explain the connection between
>>Iraq and the war on terrorism. But first they would need to
>>resolve their arguments with one another and themselves.
>>
>>In my conversations, people who generally have little
>>trouble making up their minds and debating forcefully
>>talked themselves through every side of the question.
>>''This one's really difficult,'' said Michael Ignatieff,
>>the Canadian-born writer and thinker who has written a
>>biography of the liberal philosopher Isaiah Berlin along
>>with numerous books and articles on human rights. No one in
>>recent years has supported humanitarian intervention more
>>vocally than Ignatieff, but he says he believes that Iraq
>>represents something different. ''I am having real trouble
>>with this because it's not clear to me that containment has
>>failed,'' Ignatieff told me. This kind of
>>self-interrogation ends up with numerous arguments on
>>either side of the ledger. Here's how I break down the
>>liberal internal debate.
>>
>>For War
>>
>>1. Saddam is cruel and dangerous.
>>
>>2. Saddam has used
>>weapons of mass destruction and has never stopped trying to
>>develop them.
>>
>>3. Iraqis are suffering under tyranny and sanctions.
>>
>>4.
>>Democracy would benefit Iraqis.
>>
>>5. A democratic Iraq could drain influence from repressive
>>Saudi Arabia.
>>
>>6. A democratic Iraq could unlock the Israeli-Palestinian
>>stalemate.
>>
>>7. A democratic Iraq could begin to liberalize the Arab
>>world.
>>
>>8. Al Qaeda will be at war with us regardless of what we do
>>in Iraq.
>>
>>Against War
>>
>>1. Containment has worked for 10 years, and inspections
>>could still work.
>>
>>2. We shouldn't start wars without immediate provocation
>>and international support.
>>
>>3. We could inflict terrible casualties, and so could
>>Saddam.
>>
>>4. A regional war could break out, and anti-Americanism
>>could build to a more dangerous level.
>>
>>5. Democracy can't be imposed on a country like Iraq.
>>
>>6.
>>Bush's political aims are unknown, and his record is not
>>reassuring.
>>
>>7. America's will and capacity for nation building are too
>>limited.
>>
>>8. War in Iraq will distract from the war on terrorism and
>>swell Al Qaeda's ranks.
>>
>>At the heart of the matter is a battle between wish and
>>fear. Fear generally proves stronger than wish, but it
>>leaves a taste of disappointment on the tongue. Caution
>>over Iraq puts liberal hawks, who are nothing if not
>>moralists, in the psychologically unsettling position of
>>defending a status quo they despise -- of sounding like the
>>compromisers they used to denounce when it came to Bosnia.
>>Fear means missing the chance for what Ignatieff calls ''a
>>huge prize at the end.''
>>
>>But wish makes a liberal hawk sound like a Bush hawk,
>>blithely unconcerned about the dangers of American power.
>>The liberal hawk is a liberal -- someone temperamentally
>>prone to see the world as a complicated place.
>>
>>This dilemma is every liberal's current dilemma.
>>
>>The
>>Theorist
>>
>>After last year's terror attacks, Michael Walzer, the
>>author of ''Just and Unjust Wars,'' among other books,
>>published an article in the magazine he co-edits, Dissent,
>>called ''Can There Be a Decent Left?'' Walzer harshly
>>criticized leftists whose first instinct was to blame
>>American policy for Sept. 11 and who refused to see the
>>need for a war of self-defense against Al Qaeda. The
>>article threw down an angry marker between the pro- and
>>anti-interventionist left, and it drew heated attention to
>>a 67-year-old political philosopher with a
>>far-from-confrontational manner.
>>
>>A year later, Walzer finds himself an ambivalent opponent
>>of war in Iraq. Al Qaeda simplified things in favor of
>>armed action; Iraq presents nothing but complication. ''The
>>uncertainties right now are so great,'' he told me as we
>>sat and talked at a cafe in Greenwich Village, ''and the
>>prospects, the risks, so frightening, that the
>>proportionality rule forces you the other way. And with a
>>lot of other things going on -- suspicion of this
>>government of ours, anger at the automatic anti-Americanism
>>of people here and other places. It's all mixed up.''
>>
>>Walzer is a strong advocate of multilateral action, and he
>>faults the administration and its European allies for
>>bringing out the worst in one another, American bellicosity
>>and European complacency pushing the logic of events toward
>>a war he says he doesn't believe is justified yet. The
>>just-war theory requires that a threat be imminent before
>>an attack is started. Since this is not yet the case with
>>Iraq, an American war there wouldn't meet the criteria.
>>
>>None of this means that Walzer is rallying opposition at
>>teach-ins. In the 1960's, he was willing to join an antiwar
>>movement that he says he knew would strengthen the hand of
>>Vietnamese Communists ''because I thought they'd already
>>won. I would not join an antiwar movement that strengthened
>>the hand of Saddam.'' And yet he can't imagine one that
>>doesn't. The nature of the enemy makes it almost impossible
>>to be outspoken for peace, a dilemma that has created what
>>he calls ''a kind of silent majority, a silent antiwar
>>movement.'' Walzer's position offers cold comfort, for it
>>ends up with Saddam still in power. ''It leaves me
>>unhappy,'' he says.
>>
>>The Romantic
>>
>>These days, Christopher Hitchens sounds anything but
>>unhappy. His militant support, first for the war with Al
>>Qaeda and now for a war in Iraq, has led him to break quite
>>publicly with former comrades. He has vacated the column he
>>wrote in The Nation for the past 20 years and has said
>>harsh things about the ''masochists'' of the anti-American
>>left. Hitchens's apostasy has generated nearly as much
>>attention on the left as the war itself, but over a
>>three-hour lunch in Washington, his position struck me as
>>more judicious than its print version.
>>
>>Hitchens agrees with the ''decent skepticism'' of liberals
>>who distrust the administration's motives, but he has
>>decided that hawks like Deputy Defense Secretary Paul
>>Wolfowitz aim to use a democratic Iraq to end the regional
>>dominance of Saudi Arabia. If this is the hidden agenda,
>>Hitchens wants to force it into the open. He compares
>>Saddam's Iraq with Ceausescu's Romania in 1989: it's going
>>to implode anyway, and America should have a hand in the
>>process.
>>
>>In 1991, Hitchens was too suspicious of American motives to
>>support the first gulf war -- a hangover, he says, from his
>>days as a revolutionary socialist -- but on a visit to
>>northern Iraq at the end of the war, he rode in a jeep with
>>Kurdish fighters he admired who had taped pictures of the
>>first George Bush to their windshield. It was a minor
>>revelation. ''I'm not ashamed of my critique of the gulf
>>war,'' he says, ''but I'm annoyed by how limited it was.''
>>
>>Since then, Hitchens has steadily warmed to American power
>>exercised on behalf of democracy. When I suggested that
>>since Sept. 11 he has gone back to the 18th-century, when
>>the struggle between the secular liberal Enlightenment and
>>religious dark-age tyranny created the modern world,
>>Hitchens readily agreed. ''After the dust settles, the only
>>revolution left standing is the American one,'' he said.
>>''Americanization is the most revolutionary force in the
>>world. There's almost no country where adopting the
>>Americans wouldn't be the most radical thing they could do.
>>I've always been a Paine-ite.''
>>
>>British pamphleteer for the American revolution -- Hitchens
>>has updated the role for Iraq. His relish for war with
>>radical Islamists and tyrants (''You want to be a martyr?
>>I'm here to help'') sounds like the bulldog pugnacity of a
>>British naval officer's son, which he is. It also suggests
>>a deep desire, and a romantic one, to join a revolution --
>>even if it's admittedly a ''revolution from above.'' ''I
>>feel much more like I used to in the 60's,'' he says,
>>''working with revolutionaries. That's what I'm doing; I'm
>>helping a very desperate underground. That reminds me of my
>>better days quite poignantly.'' Hitchens has plans to drink
>>Champagne with comrades in Baghdad around Valentine's Day.
>>
>>The Skeptic
>>
>>''Revolution from above'' was Trotsky's
>>mocking phrase for Stalin's use of the Communist Party to
>>collectivize the Soviet Union. It implies coercion toward a
>>notion of the good. David Rieff, whose book
>>''Slaughterhouse'' condemned the failure of Western powers
>>to intervene in Bosnia, compares revolution from above to
>>Plato's idea of ruling Guardians. What they share, says
>>Rieff, is a desire to pursue utopian ends by undemocratic
>>means.
>>
>>''I always thought there was more in common between Human
>>Rights Watch and the Bush administration than either would
>>be comfortable thinking, because they both are
>>revolutionaries -- in my view, quite dangerous radicals.
>>They believe that virtue can be imposed by force of law and
>>force of arms. Christopher has the same view with his sense
>>that a democratic alternative can be imposed by force of
>>arms in the Middle East.''
>>
>>Unlike Hitchens, an Englishman who ''liked the United
>>States enough to have concluded when I was about 16 that
>>I'd been born in the wrong country,'' Rieff is an American
>>who grew up with a European education, traveled the world
>>as a teenager and always looked askance at the notion of
>>America as either savior or Satan. As an empire, America is
>>neither better nor worse than other empires -- but to
>>expect it to behave like Amnesty International is foolish.
>>The difference between Bosnia and Iraq, Rieff says, is the
>>difference between supporting democracy and imposing it.
>>The former was a moral imperative as well as a strategic
>>one; the latter is hubris. With Iraq, this hubris is
>>leading to ''a hideous mistake.'' ''I accept everything
>>that the Bush administration says about the wickedness of
>>Saddam Hussein,'' Rieff says, ''but I do think it's a
>>revolution too far.''
>>
>>The Secularist
>>
>>During the Congressional debates on the war resolution, it
>>was just about impossible to hear an argument in favor of
>>the administration without the words ''Munich'' and
>>''Chamberlain.'' The words ''Tonkin'' and ''Johnson'' were
>>far rarer, which tells you something about the relative
>>acceptability of World War II and Vietnam -- appeasement
>>and quagmire -- as historical precedents. I wanted to ban
>>all analogies, because they always seemed to be ways of
>>avoiding the hardest questions. But the analogies are
>>hard-wired, and Leon Wieseltier, the literary editor of The
>>New Republic, is right to say that Americans of the postwar
>>generation ''have operated with two primal scenes. One was
>>the Second World War; one was the Vietnam War. And you can
>>almost divide the camps on the use of American force
>>between those whose model for its application was the
>>Second World War and those whose model for its application
>>was the Vietnam War.''
>>
>>For Wieseltier, whose parents survived the Holocaust, the
>>primal scene is American power helping to end evil. Shortly
>>before I met him at his Washington home, Wieseltier had
>>seen a TV documentary with rare footage of the gassing of
>>Kurds by Saddam's army -- a reminder of a primal scene if
>>ever there was one. But that was in 1988, when America
>>failed to intervene. Today, American and British pilots in
>>the no-fly zone are preventing the very genocide that
>>Wieseltier feels would justify an invasion.
>>
>>Wieseltier is a secular liberal in the classical sense. He
>>says he believes that the separation of religion and power
>>marked a violent rupture with the past. This rupture
>>created a new and universal idea of freedom and equality --
>>one that Islamic societies around the world have not yet
>>been ready to face. Sept. 11 was a cataclysmic
>>''refreshment'' of this idea, after years in which only
>>money mattered. But terrorism should not turn liberals into
>>simple-minded missionaries; being a secular liberal means
>>accepting that the world is a difficult place. ''Democracy
>>in Iraq would be a blessing, but it cannot be the main
>>objective for embarking on a major war,'' Wieseltier says.
>>''If there is one thing that liberalism has no time for,
>>it's an eschatological mentality. There is no single,
>>sudden end to injustice. There's slow, steady, fitful
>>progress toward a more decent and democratic world.''
>>
>>Wieseltier says he believes that Saddam's weapons and
>>fondness for using them will probably necessitate a war,
>>but unlike some other editors at The New Republic, he is
>>not eager to start one. ''We will certainly win,''
>>Wieseltier says, ''but it is a war in which we are truly
>>playing with fire.''
>>
>>The Idealist
>>
>>Paul Berman's book ''A Tale of Two Utopias: The Political
>>Journey of the Generation of 1968'' traced a line from the
>>rebellions of the 1960's to the nonviolent revolutions of
>>1989. It is essentially a line from leftism to liberalism.
>>With the fall of the Berlin Wall, the great ideological
>>battles of the 20th century seemed to have ended: liberal
>>democracy reigned supreme.
>>
>>Then came Sept. 11, which, Berman argues in a coming book
>>called ''Terror and Liberalism,'' showed that, as it turns
>>out, the 20th century isn't quite over yet.
>>
>>''The terrorism we face right now is actually a form of
>>totalitarianism,'' Berman told me in his Brooklyn
>>apartment. ''The only possible way to oppose
>>totalitarianism is with an alternative system, which is
>>that of a liberal society.'' So the war that began on Sept.
>>11 is primarily a war of ideas, and Berman harshly
>>criticizes Bush for failing to pursue it. ''We're going
>>into a very complex and long war disarmed, in which our
>>most important assets have been stripped away from us,
>>which are our ideals and our ideas. He's sending us into
>>war with one arm tied behind our back.''
>>
>>Berman argues for a war in Iraq on three grounds: to free
>>up the Middle East militarily for further actions against
>>Al Qaeda, to liberate the Iraqi people from their dungeon
>>and to establish ''a beachhead of Arab democracy'' and
>>shift the region's center of gravity away from autocracy
>>and theocracy and toward liberalization. In other words,
>>war in Iraq has everything to do with the war on terrorism,
>>and the dangers of an American military occupation that
>>might not be seen by everyone in the region as
>>''pro-Muslim,'' though they worry Berman, don't deter him.
>>
>>Perhaps the boldest intellectual move he makes is to claim
>>a liberal descent for these ideas -- connecting the fall of
>>the Berlin Wall, Bosnia, Kosovo, Sept. 11 and Iraq. This
>>lineage, Berman claims, is represented not by George W.
>>Bush but by Tony Blair, ''leader of the free world.'' Bush
>>has presented the wars on terrorism and Saddam as matters
>>of U.S. security. In fact, Berman says, they are wars for
>>liberal civilization, and the rest of the democratic world
>>should want to join. It doesn't bother Berman to hear
>>conservative hawks at the Pentagon like Paul Wolfowitz
>>talking similarly. ''If their language is sincere,'' he
>>says, ''and there is an idealism among the neo-cons that
>>echoes and reflects in some way the language of the liberal
>>interventionists of the 90's, well, that would be a good
>>thing.''
>>
>>But Berman, unlike Hitchens, doubts their sincerity. And in
>>the end, Berman can't support the administration's war
>>plan, ''because I don't actually know -- I believe that no
>>one actually knows -- what is the actual White House
>>policy.'' So he is left in the familiar position of
>>intellectuals, with an arsenal of ideas and no way to
>>deploy them.
>>
>>one chilly evening in late November, a panel discussion on
>>Iraq was convened at New York University. The participants
>>were liberal intellectuals, and one by one they framed
>>reasonable arguments against a war in Iraq: inspections
>>need time to work; the Bush doctrine has a dangerous
>>agenda; the history of U.S. involvement in the Middle East
>>is not encouraging. The audience of 150 New Yorkers seemed
>>persuaded.
>>
>>Then the last panelist spoke. He was an Iraqi dissident
>>named Kanan Makiya, and he said, ''I'm afraid I'm going to
>>strike a discordant note.'' He pointed out that Iraqis, who
>>will pay the highest price in the event of an invasion,
>>''overwhelmingly want this war.'' He outlined a vision of
>>postwar Iraq as a secular democracy with equal rights for
>>all of its citizens. This vision would be new to the Arab
>>world. ''It can be encouraged, or it can be crushed just
>>like that. But think about what you're doing if you crush
>>it.'' Makiya's voice rose as he came to an end. ''I rest my
>>moral case on the following: if there's a sliver of a
>>chance of it happening, a 5 to 10 percent chance, you have
>>a moral obligation, I say, to do it.''
>>
>>The effect was electrifying. The room, which just minutes
>>earlier had settled into a sober and comfortable rejection
>>of war, exploded in applause. The other panelists looked
>>startled, and their reasonable arguments suddenly lay
>>deflated on the table before them.
>>
>>Michael Walzer, who was on the panel, smiled wanly. ''It's
>>very hard to respond,'' he said.
>>
>>It was hard, I thought, because Makiya had spoken the
>>language beloved by liberal hawks. He had met their hope of
>>avoiding a war with an even greater hope. He had given the
>>people in the room an image of their own ideals.
>>
>>http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/08/magazine/08LIBERALS.html?ex=1040446398&ei=1&en=de637b2033572969
>>
********************************************************
HG afloat:  www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html
www.spuytenduyvil.net * http://jacketmagazine.com/ * www.unf.edu/mudlark
    "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam





From antrobin  Mon Dec  9 12:29:00 2002
From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 09:29:00 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
References: <1039445615.3df4ae6f3abf5@webmail2.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <008901c29fa8$964ac5c0$95aeefd8@0021936706>

Well, Guh, it's ONE of the best.
I really like Cathy Wagner, too.

Tony


> Yes but Tony, is it THE BEST??
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Illinois State University Webmail https://webmail2.ilstu.edu
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From gmguddi  Mon Dec  9 12:49:58 2002
From: gmguddi (gmguddi at ilstu.edu)
Date: Mon,  9 Dec 2002 11:49:58 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.44.0212091102560.17895-100000@millipede.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>
References: <Pine.SOL.4.44.0212091102560.17895-100000@millipede.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>
Message-ID: <1039456198.3df4d7c6b21e5@webmail2.ilstu.edu>

 _Breezes: Selected Poems, 1973-1978_ by A. Ghani Hamid. Call Number: 
PR9570.S53 A14. 

_Breeze_ is also used by several songsters as album titles. 

Quoting John Latta <lattaj at umich.edu>:

> Unn-unnnh, Gudding, a book what's title
> was used before (_and_ by a COUTIER, a RICH
> man, and a SAP) cain't be THE BEST.
> 
> THE BEST was MY BOOK, called _Breeze_ and
> just out from the University of Notre Dame
> Press.
> 
> Tony knows. Everything else is doodly-squat.
> 
> John "Poetry ain't no DEfense" Latta
> 
> 
> On Mon, 9 Dec 2002 gmguddi at ilstu.edu wrote:
> 
> > Yes but Tony, is it THE BEST??
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > Illinois State University Webmail https://webmail2.ilstu.edu
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




------------------------------------------------------------
Illinois State University Webmail https://webmail2.ilstu.edu



From lattaj  Mon Dec  9 13:07:12 2002
From: lattaj (John Latta)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 13:07:12 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2
In-Reply-To: <1039456198.3df4d7c6b21e5@webmail2.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.44.0212091259410.20638-100000@asteroids.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>

_BREEZE_ not "Bree sez," not "Brie Seas,"
not "Ze Beez," but _Breeze_. And don't
you go calling me no songster neither.

John "Not related to himself" Latta


On Mon, 9 Dec 2002 Gabby Gudding wrote:

>  _Breezes: Selected Poems, 1973-1978_ by A. Ghani Hamid. Call Number:
> PR9570.S53 A14.
>
> _Breeze_ is also used by several songsters as album titles.
>
> Quoting John Latta <lattaj at umich.edu>:
>
> > Unn-unnnh, Gudding, a book what's title
> > was used before (_and_ by a COUTIER, a RICH
> > man, and a SAP) cain't be THE BEST.
> >
> > THE BEST was MY BOOK, called _Breeze_ and
> > just out from the University of Notre Dame
> > Press.
> >
> > Tony knows. Everything else is doodly-squat.
> >
> > John "Poetry ain't no DEfense" Latta
> >
> >
> > On Mon, 9 Dec 2002 General Pudding wrote:
> >
> > > Yes but Tony, is it THE BEST??
> >





From antrobin  Mon Dec  9 13:11:16 2002
From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 10:11:16 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] best of 2003
References: <Pine.SOL.4.44.0212091259410.20638-100000@asteroids.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>
Message-ID: <00c801c29fae$60f092a0$95aeefd8@0021936706>

Okay New Poets,

Let's prognosticate.  Crystal ball in hand, I predict that "Best of 2003"
will be........



"The Miseries of Poetry" by Kent Johnson and Alexandra Papaditsas

Tony
***
"The incredible never surprises us because it is the incredible."
Emily Dickinson

***
"I have obtained an aphrodisiac. It is made from the pockets of the Pocket
Fox, a rare animal that only existed for three weeks in the sixteenth
century."
C. Montgomery Burns

***
"The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous gap in poetry
which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but which would be
better left alone."
Kenneth Koch

***
...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us but yet its in
us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals.
Russell Hoban, "Riddley Walker"


----- Original Message -----
From: "John Latta" <lattaj at umich.edu>
To: <gmguddi at ilstu.edu>
Cc: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2002 10:07 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Best of 2


> _BREEZE_ not "Bree sez," not "Brie Seas,"
> not "Ze Beez," but _Breeze_. And don't
> you go calling me no songster neither.
>
> John "Not related to himself" Latta
>
>
> On Mon, 9 Dec 2002 Gabby Gudding wrote:
>
> >  _Breezes: Selected Poems, 1973-1978_ by A. Ghani Hamid. Call Number:
> > PR9570.S53 A14.
> >
> > _Breeze_ is also used by several songsters as album titles.
> >
> > Quoting John Latta <lattaj at umich.edu>:
> >
> > > Unn-unnnh, Gudding, a book what's title
> > > was used before (_and_ by a COUTIER, a RICH
> > > man, and a SAP) cain't be THE BEST.
> > >
> > > THE BEST was MY BOOK, called _Breeze_ and
> > > just out from the University of Notre Dame
> > > Press.
> > >
> > > Tony knows. Everything else is doodly-squat.
> > >
> > > John "Poetry ain't no DEfense" Latta
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mon, 9 Dec 2002 General Pudding wrote:
> > >
> > > > Yes but Tony, is it THE BEST??
> > >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From Edward.Byrne  Mon Dec  9 13:40:59 2002
From: Edward.Byrne (Edward Byrne)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 12:40:59 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
In-Reply-To: <sdf1f0db.014@risd.edu>
Message-ID: <SIMEON.10212091259.C@muahost.valpo.edu>

I'd nominate another book in 2002 by a poet name Byrne, my own _Tidal 
Air (Pecan Grove Press), but modesty forbids it.  Therefore, I will 
place Charles Wright's _A Short History of the Shadow_ (Farrar, Straus 
and Giroux) in nomination as one of the best of 2002.

--Edward Byrne

Mairead Byrne wrote:
> Well David I think Gabriel Gudding's A Defense of Poetry (University of
> Pittsburgh Press) is pretty damn good.  I also think my own Nelson & the
> Huruburu Bird (Wild Honey Press) which may or may not make the 2002
> deadline is pretty bloody damn good.  The fact that I am related to
> these two poets has no bearing on my enthusiasm.
> Mairead

--------------------------------------------------

Edward Byrne
Department of English
322 Huegli Hall
Valparaiso University
Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493

E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu
http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/

Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu
http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/
Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
Fax: (219) 464-5511

--------------------------------------------------




From mcbyrne  Mon Dec  9 13:55:01 2002
From: mcbyrne (Mairead Byrne)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 13:55:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
Message-ID: <sdf4a0c6.051@risd.edu>

Good for you, Edward.  I respect the modesty that prevents you
nominating your book, TIDAL AIR.  If I were more modest myself, I
wouldn't have nominated my book, Nelson & The Huruburu Bird, and my
beloved husband's book, A Defense of Poetry.  But I was behind the door
when the Byrne modesty was being handed out and Edward got the lion's
share of it.  Otherwise he would not only nominate TIDAL AIR himself but
he would let me nominate it too.  And I'm not even related to him!
Mairead

>>> Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu 12/09/02 13:47 PM >>>
I'd nominate another book in 2002 by a poet name Byrne, my own _Tidal 
Air (Pecan Grove Press), but modesty forbids it.  Therefore, I will 
place Charles Wright's _A Short History of the Shadow_ (Farrar, Straus 
and Giroux) in nomination as one of the best of 2002.

--Edward Byrne

Mairead Byrne wrote:
> Well David I think Gabriel Gudding's A Defense of Poetry (University
of
> Pittsburgh Press) is pretty damn good.  I also think my own Nelson &
the
> Huruburu Bird (Wild Honey Press) which may or may not make the 2002
> deadline is pretty bloody damn good.  The fact that I am related to
> these two poets has no bearing on my enthusiasm.
> Mairead

--------------------------------------------------

Edward Byrne
Department of English
322 Huegli Hall
Valparaiso University
Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493

E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu
http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/

Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu
http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/
Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
Fax: (219) 464-5511

--------------------------------------------------

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From halvard  Mon Dec  9 15:10:35 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 15:10:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] best of 2003
In-Reply-To: <00c801c29fae$60f092a0$95aeefd8@0021936706>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEGPFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

  
{    Okay New Poets,
{    
{    Let's prognosticate.  Crystal ball in hand, I predict that "Best of 2003"
{    will be........

*How I Won the War My Daddy Started but Didn't Finish: 
A Saga in Sonnets* by George W. Bosh . . . excuse me, make
that Bush.

Hal     "The bacon too carries on its modest 
            love affair."
                       --Tony Towle
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From gmguddi  Mon Dec  9 15:55:40 2002
From: gmguddi (gmguddi at ilstu.edu)
Date: Mon,  9 Dec 2002 14:55:40 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] best of 2003
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEGPFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEGPFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <1039467340.3df5034cb4935@webmail2.ilstu.edu>

Bobby Dobby's "Sneezing Rugs of Mucus" has been collected into a three-volume 
chapbook, forthcoming from Spuyten this April. It won Slapering Hail's contest 
three times. g


Quoting Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net>:

>   
> {    Okay New Poets,
> {    
> {    Let's prognosticate.  Crystal ball in hand, I predict that "Best of
> 2003"
> {    will be........
> 
> *How I Won the War My Daddy Started but Didn't Finish: 
> A Saga in Sonnets* by George W. Bosh . . . excuse me, make
> that Bush.
> 
> Hal     "The bacon too carries on its modest 
>             love affair."
>                        --Tony Towle
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




------------------------------------------------------------
Illinois State University Webmail https://webmail2.ilstu.edu



From bobgrumman  Mon Dec  9 16:21:48 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 16:21:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy & art
References: <3DF43F48.21959.1EBC87@localhost>
Message-ID: <002201c29fc8$fc707820$6f33fea9@j1c1k6>

> Bob Grumman:
> > I consider it successful as a poem to the degree that it causes
aesthetic
> > pleasure to an aesthespient (my latest term for receiver of an artwork).
A
> > eulogy, to be successful, would have to cause asethetic pleasure to its
> > aesthespients.  That it may cause pain or pleasure to someone for
> > non-aesthetic reasons does not count.<<
>
> What percentage of aesthespients have to get what degree of pleasure
> before you consider it "successful"?  One aesthespient who finds it
> barely acceptable aesthetically? Is that enough to call the poem
> "successful"?

Who knows.  I think I'd call such a poem something other than "successful."
Can't think of a good adjective offhand.  Maybe "not entirely unacceptable."
Personally, I consider any poem that gives me enough aesthetic pleasure for
me to want to return to it successful *for me*.   For a poem to be
successful beyond that, I would say it would have to give each of at least a
few dozen people per year for forty three-and-a-half years  enough pleasure
for each to return to it.  But that would be a readerly (again, can't think
just now of a better word) success.  A poem could give no aesthetic pleasure
and still be a success of some sort if it introduced a technique or image or
whatever that made it possible for some other poet to learn enough from it
to make one or more successful poems.

What if that one aesthespient is the artist?  Is that
> enough?

I would taxonomize successfulnesses, as above.

"Endo-successful" and "exo-successful?"

> Bob Grumman:
> > So you don't think there's the kind of need for art that there is for
food?
>
> As you can clearly see, we can't define "art", much less the "need
> for art" as well as we can define "food" or "need for food".  Provide
> a definition of "art" and "need for art" that you think correspond to
> the notions of "food" and "need for food" and we'll examine them to
> see if they correspond sufficiently to put "art" in the "food"
> category.

I agree that such a definition would be required but can't give you one just
now.

> > > Marcus Bales;
> > > > > After all, what is empathy
> > > > > but a sustained, great, and complicatingly ramifying response?
> > >
> > > Bob Grumman:
> > > > One thing it can be is a short-lived, tiny, unramifying
> > > > response.  One can empathize with a man who has lost a
> > > > penny as well as with a man whose house has burned down.<<
>
> Marcus Bales:
> > > Context is all in this case; the widow who adds her mite to the
> > > offering, and the man who loses his very last penny may be people
> > > with whom we empathize, but not in an "short-lived, tiny, unramifying
> > > response".  With an ordinary fellow who loses a penny we are not
> > > likely to empathize, Bob -- or even sympathize -- unless it is a
> > > penny worth a good deal more than a penny.
>
> Bob Grumman:
> > Come on, Marcus.  I was obviously showing the difference between degrees
of
> > empathy.  A poem can express empathy for small things and therefore be
> > small--but successful.<<
>
> I understood you, as I think most people who read what you said
> understood you to be trying to say (as in fact you said right
> explicitly, too) that you don't think that "empathy" need count at
> all toward the success of a poem.

You're right.  Too many arguments going for me, so I got confused.  I forgot
I was just trying to demonstrate that empathy need not be large, etc.


My point is that what counts as
> "empathy" is different from what counts as "sympathy" or
> "understanding" or "awareness" or "acknowledgement" and other points
> on the graduated scale from empathy to indifference to hostility.
>
> It seems to me that we're trying to define our terms well enough to
> use them meaningfully here.

I guess.

> Bob Grumman:
> > Why "anathema?"  I use "empathy" as getting sympathetically inside
another's
> > mind or heart, more or less.  For me it is thus social, as opposed to
> > aesthetic, and art's main function, for me, is aesthetic, not social.  I
> > suppose you could use it to mean getting into an artwork, but not to any
> > advantage that I can see.<<
>
> Because "empathy" is different from "sympathy" -- and as for "more or
> less", empathy requires rather more than less.  You're still trying
> to argue merely semantically -- that "empathy" doesn't mean, to you,
> and therefore cannot mean to others, "a sustained, great, and
> complicatingly ramifying response"

Sure, it can, and I can't quite believe that I said anything to deny that.
What I argue is that it does not mean ONLY that.  I believe there are
degrees of empathy.

>or "something that connects to
> many things beyond itself in space and time".  Your argument is
> merely semantical, and it hangs on your private definition of
> "empathy" -- a definition so narrowly rigid that one despairs of the
> notion of using words metaphorically around you for fear that your
> literalist lexicographical interpretations will inevitably miss the
> point -- and the poetry.
>
> Marcus Bales

I feel your despair, Marcus.

--Bob G.






From grahamd  Mon Dec  9 20:54:15 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 19:54:15 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fairchild III
Message-ID: <200212100154.gBA1sEP0057306@mx1.mx.voyager.net>

NPR has an interview with B. H. Fairchild available as RealAudio stream on
its website:

http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/atc/20021204.atc.09.ram

He reads a couple poems and talks about his new book.  
========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
undergraduate education."
   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================




From Rsgwynn1  Tue Dec 10 00:03:03 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 00:03:03 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blog?
Message-ID: <f9.2679e054.2b26cf87@cs.com>

Pardon the irrelevant question, but I seem to be seeing this term more and 
more.  What does it mean exactly?
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From grahamd  Tue Dec 10 00:08:09 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 23:08:09 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Blog?
Message-ID: <200212100508.gBA582sP020367@mx4.mx.voyager.net>

Short for "web-log."  An online journal, essentially.  The term "blog" seems
all too appropriately onomatopoetic for most of them, in which high school
students vomit out their unedited thoughts.  Ron Silliman's is a different
matter, of course.  
========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
undergraduate education."
   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================


----------
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blog?
Date: Mon, Dec 9, 2002, 11:03 PM


Pardon the irrelevant question, but I seem to be seeing this term more and
more.  What does it mean exactly? 
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From marcus  Tue Dec 10 08:09:28 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:09:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy & art
In-Reply-To: <002201c29fc8$fc707820$6f33fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <3DF5A138.18505.5387A6@localhost>

> > Bob Grumman:
> > > I consider it successful as a poem to the degree that it causes
> aesthetic
> > > pleasure to an aesthespient (my latest term for receiver of an artwork).
> > > A eulogy, to be successful, would have to cause asethetic pleasure to its
> > > aesthespients.  That it may cause pain or pleasure to someone for
> > > non-aesthetic reasons does not count.<<

Marcus Bales:
> > What percentage of aesthespients have to get what degree of pleasure
> > before you consider it "successful"?  One aesthespient who finds it
> > barely acceptable aesthetically? Is that enough to call the poem
> > "successful"?

Bob Grumman: 
> Who knows.  I think I'd call such a poem something other than "successful."
> Can't think of a good adjective offhand.  Maybe "not entirely unacceptable."
> Personally, I consider any poem that gives me enough aesthetic pleasure for
> me to want to return to it successful *for me*.<

For a critic and especially for a critic who claims to be an 
effective taxonomist, this is especially silly -- it reduces all of 
your proposed taxonomy to the merest opinion: opinion not only 
unsupported by any evidence but unsupportable by any conceivable 
evidence beyond "I like it".  You cannot reasonably, at one and the 
same time, claim that you are making judgments about a taxonomy of 
poetry that you hope will be applicable for if not all at least 
almost all those who read and write poems while also claiming that 
the categories of your taxonomy are merely "good for me" -- it's a 
direct self-contradiction, Bob.  Either you must be willing to defend 
your taxonomic categories on reasonable grounds (that is, other than 
the merest prejudice of "I like it") or you have to admit that you 
haven't really got a taxonomy worth urging on others because it is so 
subjective that it can't be applied by anyone who is not you.

Bob Grumman:
Bob Grumman:
> For a poem to be
> successful beyond that, I would say it would have to give each of at least a
> few dozen people per year for forty three-and-a-half years  enough pleasure
> for each to return to it.<<

I'll take this to be a sarcasm and unworthy of remark beyond "Ha ha". 

Really, Bob -- what are the standards for "successful poem" in your 
view?  You've got to be able to do better than "Because I like it" on 
the one hand and the sarcasm of "forty-three years" (and wouldn't it 
have been more allusive and funny to say "forty two"?) on the other 
if you're going to stake any kind of real claim to being a serious 
taxonomist of poetry.

Bob Grumman:
> ... A poem could give no aesthetic pleasure
> and still be a success of some sort if it introduced a technique or image or
> whatever that made it possible for some other poet to learn enough from it
> to make one or more successful poems.<<

This is still meaningless if you do not, or cannot, define 
"successful poem", Bob.  Especially since you seem to be saying that 
there are at least two ways to be successful:  First, to introduce 
some new technique in a failed poem that gives some other poet a new 
tool to create a successful poem, and, Second, to actually write a 
successful poem.  That's like saying that a table leg that won't hold 
up a table, a failed table leg, is really a successful table leg even 
though it won't function as a table leg if someone else, looking at 
the failure of that table leg to hold up a table, makes another, a 
new, table leg that does hold up the table.  It's specious, it's 
ridiculous, and it's false.  

Marcus Bales:
> What if that one aesthespient is the artist?  Is that
> > enough?

Bob Grumman: 
> I would taxonomize successfulnesses, as above.

But you haven't taxonomized it above, Bob -- you've only made 
ambiguity yet more unclear.  The goal of most taxonomists is to 
create clarity in an understandable system of categorization -- but 
your goal seems to be very different, if you think that calling a 
failed poem a success if it leads to other poets' other successful 
poems is "taxonomy" -- particularly when you apparently are unwilling 
to say what "successful poem" means in the first place.
 
> > Bob Grumman:
> > > So you don't think there's the kind of need for art that there is for
> food?

Marcus Bales:
> > As you can clearly see, we can't define "art", much less the "need
> > for art" as well as we can define "food" or "need for food".  Provide
> > a definition of "art" and "need for art" that you think correspond to
> > the notions of "food" and "need for food" and we'll examine them to
> > see if they correspond sufficiently to put "art" in the "food"
> > category.

Bob Grumman: 
> I agree that such a definition would be required but can't give you one just
> now.

And that's a fatal flaw, both in your apparent conception of what 
"taxonomy" is and in your process of trying to create a taxonomy for 
what you cannot define.

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From halvard  Tue Dec 10 08:54:39 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 08:54:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] 2 Poems by others: Henry Parland, "untitled" and "Gasoline"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEIAFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

[untitled ]

The gospels are served up 
as sanctifying 
--so also this: 

On four words 
created by the devil himself 
hangs all suffering: 
ugly, beautiful, good, bad. 
  
==========

Gasoline 

I am a great God 
and my price is $1.40 per gallon 
and men murder one another for my sake. 

Whee! 
when fire has kissed me 
and iron trembles: life! 
Then 
I know 
why I have dreamt so long 
under the earth.

--Henry Parland (1908-1930)

Tr. fr. Swedish by Peter Malekin. 
Fr. *Hamlet Said It Better, posthumous poems* 1964. 
Also in *Sweden Writes: Contemporary Swedish Poetry 
and Prose, Views on Art, Literature and Society*. 
(The Swedish Institute, Stockholm, 1965). 

Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard





From lattaj  Tue Dec 10 12:17:15 2002
From: lattaj (John Latta)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:17:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.4.44.0212091102560.17895-100000@millipede.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.4.44.0212101202370.6802-100000@timepilot.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>

Humbly now, without silliness, some of my favor'd books of 2002 or
thereabouts:

Telepathy, Devin Johnston
Zero Star Hotel, Anselm Berrigan
A Beaker, Caroline Knox
The Sense Record, Jennifer Moxley
A Minute Without Danger, Jaqueline Waters
On the Cave You Live In, Philip Jenks
Collected Works, Lorine Niedecker
Torn Awake, Forrest Gander
A Defense of Poetry, Gabriel Gudding


In fiction, etc.:

_John Henry Days_ and _The Intuitionist_, both by Colson Whitehead
and all W. G. Sebald, and all Marguerite Young



John Latta





From bobgrumman  Tue Dec 10 16:17:21 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 16:17:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy & art
References: <3DF5A138.18505.5387A6@localhost>
Message-ID: <003801c2a091$878c0dc0$fb97fea9@j1c1k6>

> > Personally, I consider any poem that gives me enough aesthetic pleasure
for
> > me to want to return to it successful *for me*.<

Marcus, jumping on the above instead of reading all that I say:

> For a critic and especially for a critic who claims to be an
> effective taxonomist, this is especially silly -- it reduces all of
> your proposed taxonomy to the merest opinion: opinion not only
> unsupported by any evidence but unsupportable by any conceivable
> evidence beyond "I like it".  You cannot reasonably, at one and the
> same time, claim that you are making judgments about a taxonomy of
> poetry that you hope will be applicable for if not all at least
> almost all those who read and write poems while also claiming that
> the categories of your taxonomy are merely "good for me" -- it's a
> direct self-contradiction, Bob.  Either you must be willing to defend
> your taxonomic categories on reasonable grounds (that is, other than
> the merest prejudice of "I like it") or you have to admit that you
> haven't really got a taxonomy worth urging on others because it is so
> subjective that it can't be applied by anyone who is not you.
>
> Bob Grumman:


> > For a poem to be
> > successful beyond that, I would say it would have to give each of at
least a
> > few dozen people per year for forty three-and-a-half years  enough
pleasure
> > for each to return to it.<<
>
> I'll take this to be a sarcasm and unworthy of remark beyond "Ha ha".

No, the figures are sarcastic, the gist is absolutely serious: some number
of aesthespients (serious aesthespients) per year should get enough pleasure
from a poem for two generations, say,
for me to consider the poem exo-successful.  The number would have to be
enough to keep the poem from being completely forgotten.  Beyond that, who
knows.  I think I'd leave it up to whoever wanted to judge a poem.

> Really, Bob -- what are the standards for "successful poem" in your
> view?  You've got to be able to do better than "Because I like it" on
> the one hand and the sarcasm of "forty-three years" (and wouldn't it
> have been more allusive and funny to say "forty two"?)

Forty-three-and-a half years.

> on the other
> if you're going to stake any kind of real claim to being a serious
> taxonomist of poetry.

If you're going to stake any kind of real claim to being a serious critic of
my taxonomy, Marcus, why don't you go to my website at

http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/lit-tax.html

and read and critique it.  You might also read and critique what's at

http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/vispdef.html


> Bob Grumman:
> > ... A poem could give no aesthetic pleasure
> > and still be a success of some sort if it introduced a technique or
image or
> > whatever that made it possible for some other poet to learn enough from
it
> > to make one or more successful poems.<<
>
> This is still meaningless if you do not, or cannot, define
> "successful poem", Bob.  Especially since you seem to be saying that
> there are at least two ways to be successful:  First, to introduce
> some new technique in a failed poem that gives some other poet a new
> tool to create a successful poem, and, Second, to actually write a
> successful poem.  That's like saying that a table leg that won't hold
> up a table, a failed table leg, is really a successful table leg even
> though it won't function as a table leg if someone else, looking at
> the failure of that table leg to hold up a table, makes another, a
> new, table leg that does hold up the table.

Not quite, Marcus.  But I'm not up to trying to show you why.


> Marcus Bales:
> > What if that one aesthespient is the artist?  Is that
> > > enough?
>
> Bob Grumman:
> > I would taxonomize successfulnesses, as above.
>
> But you haven't taxonomized it above, Bob -- you've only made
> ambiguity yet more unclear.

What a shame.

> The goal of most taxonomists is to
> create clarity in an understandable system of categorization -- but
> your goal seems to be very different, if you think that calling a
> failed poem a success if it leads to other poets' other successful
> poems is "taxonomy" -- particularly when you apparently are unwilling
> to say what "successful poem" means in the first place.
>
> > > Bob Grumman:
> > > > So you don't think there's the kind of need for art that there is
for
> > food?
>
> Marcus Bales:
> > > As you can clearly see, we can't define "art", much less the "need
> > > for art" as well as we can define "food" or "need for food".  Provide
> > > a definition of "art" and "need for art" that you think correspond to
> > > the notions of "food" and "need for food" and we'll examine them to
> > > see if they correspond sufficiently to put "art" in the "food"
> > > category.
>
> Bob Grumman:
> > I agree that such a definition would be required but can't give you one
just
> > now.
>
> And that's a fatal flaw, both in your apparent conception of what
> "taxonomy" is and in your process of trying to create a taxonomy for
> what you cannot define.
>
> Marcus Bales

Nuts, and I had such high hopes for what I'm doing in taxonomy, too!

Marcus, once again I must tell you that you seem neither able to recognize
the difference between the airing of ideas and the construction of
rigorously logical systems of ideas, nor understand much more than half of
what I am saying (which I doubt is all my fault).

--Bob G.




From JforJames  Tue Dec 10 17:11:37 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 17:11:37 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets House Holiday Book Sale
Message-ID: <18f.129e5d1a.2b27c099@aol.com>

Subj:    Poets House Holiday Book Sale
Date:   12/9/02 10:47:04 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:   announce at poetshouse.org (Poets House)

Give the gift of poetry!

Poets House invites you to our Holiday Book Sale.

Wednesday, December 11, 4-8 pm
Private Sale for Members. Become a member today!

Thursday, December 12, 11-5 pm, All Welcome

Friday, December 13, 11-7 pm, All Welcome

Saturday, December 14, 11-4 pm
Last Chance! Prices are even lower!


Poets House makes it easy to give the gift of poetry.
With thousands of poetry books for sale, there is
something here for everyone on your holiday shopping
list. The selection includes plenty of new releases
in mint condition and a sampling of well-worn
classics??all of them duplicate copies from Poets
House's 40,000-volume poetry library. 

The prices are unbeatable??25% to 50% off??and all
proceeds benefit Poets House's permanent collection.

Poets House is located at:
72 Spring St., 2nd Fl, New York, NY
(between Broadway & Lafayette)
Subways: 6 @ Spring, 1|9 @ Prince, F|S|V @
Broadway/Lafayette
Please call (212) 431-7920 for more information.

Hope to see you there & happy holidays!



*****************************************************
The library is free to use and open to the public, 
Tuesdays?Fridays 11am?7pm & Saturdays 11am?4pm.
Please call for holiday closings, (212) 431-7920.

To unsubscribe from the Poets House mailing list please
send an email to remove at poetshouse.org



From JforJames  Tue Dec 10 17:40:09 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 17:40:09 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 (or 2001)
Message-ID: <17e.1341c236.2b27c749@aol.com>

Forrest Gander, Torn Awake (New Directions)
Donald Revell, Arcady (Wesleyan)
Linda McCarriston, Little River: New & Selected Poems
(Triquarterly)

& two of Linda Gregg's early books (long OP) have been
republished under one cover, 
Too Bright To See and Alma (Graywolf)

Finnegan



From halvard  Tue Dec 10 19:37:06 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 19:37:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Stan Rice (1942?-2002)
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEILFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

You can find a nice selection from his books over the
years at

		www.stanrice.com/ 

Click on book covers.

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From gmguddi  Tue Dec 10 20:15:22 2002
From: gmguddi (gmguddi at ilstu.edu)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 19:15:22 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] best of 2002 & 03
Message-ID: <1039569322.3df691aa5cea0@webmail2.ilstu.edu>

experiencing an enjoyable read of _Immanent Visitor: Selected Poems of Jaime 
Saenz_, translated by Kent Johnson and Forrest Gander, 2002

looking forward to _Hyperlustrous Purse_ by Patrick Herron and _The Miseries 
of Poetry_ by Kent Johnson.  Also _Nelson and The Huruburu Bird_ by Mairead 
Byrne

K. Silem Mohammed coming out with anything?  Koch's _New Addresses_ is 
interesting, last book from him (probably)guh

------------------------------------------------------------
Illinois State University Webmail https://webmail2.ilstu.edu



From grahamd  Tue Dec 10 20:23:49 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 19:23:49 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Koch
Message-ID: <200212110124.gBB1NgJq026397@mx12.mx.voyager.net>

> Koch's _New Addresses_ is 
>interesting, last book from him (probably)guh

After *New Addresses* came *A Possible World*, which I haven't seen yet. 
Don't know if there are any other posthumous volumes in the can.  I did like
*New Addresses* quite a lot--has anyone seen this latest one?


========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
undergraduate education."
   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================




From reneea  Tue Dec 10 21:45:59 2002
From: reneea (Renee Ashley)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 21:45:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Stan Rice (1942?-2002)
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEILFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <00af01c2a0bf$70eeefa0$639e598a@oemcomputer>

Oh...  I'm really sorry to hear he's gone.  He was at SFSU when I was there
about a hundred years ago.  He was a nice man.
Renee

----- Original Message -----
From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 7:37 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Stan Rice (1942?-2002)


>
> You can find a nice selection from his books over the
> years at
>
> www.stanrice.com/
>
> Click on book covers.
>
> Hal                Serving the tri-state area.
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From halvard  Tue Dec 10 22:24:16 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 22:24:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Stan Rice (1942?-2002)
In-Reply-To: <00af01c2a0bf$70eeefa0$639e598a@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEIPFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

I never knew him, Renee, or even met him. In fact, I've never
read much of his work. What stuck in my head about him (other
than his been Mr. Anne Rice) was an image: in some poem of
his I read in some l'il mag back in the sixties he compared a scar
on someone's leg to an ice-covered skating pond.

Hal     "The bacon too carries on its modest 
            love affair."
                       --Tony Towle
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard

{    Oh...  I'm really sorry to hear he's gone.  He was at SFSU when I was there
{    about a hundred years ago.  He was a nice man.
{    Renee
{    
{    ----- Original Message -----
{    From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
{    To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
{    Sent: Tuesday, December 10, 2002 7:37 PM
{    Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Stan Rice (1942?-2002)
{    
{    
{    >
{    > You can find a nice selection from his books over the
{    > years at
{    >
{    > www.stanrice.com/
{    >
{    > Click on book covers.
{    >
{    > Hal                Serving the tri-state area.
{    >
{    > Halvard Johnson
{    > ===============
{    > email: halvard at earthlink.net
{    > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
{    >
{    > _______________________________________________
{    > New-Poetry mailing list
{    > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    >
{    
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From antrobin  Tue Dec 10 22:55:22 2002
From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 19:55:22 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Koch
References: <200212110124.gBB1NgJq026397@mx12.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <00a701c2a0c9$25fcf280$ccacefd8@0021936706>

David Graham wrote:

> After *New Addresses* came *A Possible World*, which I haven't seen yet.
> Don't know if there are any other posthumous volumes in the can.  I did
like
> *New Addresses* quite a lot--has anyone seen this latest one?

There's one in the can that I know of--"Sun Out," which I read in manuscript
last year. I don't know if it's come out yet.
It's VERY different from most of Koch's later work.  "Sun Out" collects
mostly unpublished work from the years 1952-1954.  Much of the poetry here
is wordplay--very language-oriented. The young Koch is clearly having fun,
not worried about "making sense" or any such thing.  Even for me, this one
is best in small doses.

Tony



***
"The incredible never surprises us because it is the incredible."
Emily Dickinson

***
"I have obtained an aphrodisiac. It is made from the pockets of the Pocket
Fox, a rare animal that only existed for three weeks in the sixteenth
century."
C. Montgomery Burns

***
"The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous gap in poetry
which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but which would be
better left alone."
Kenneth Koch

***
...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us but yet its in
us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals.
Russell Hoban, "Riddley Walker"




From marcus  Wed Dec 11 08:26:50 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 08:26:50 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy & art
In-Reply-To: <003801c2a091$878c0dc0$fb97fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <3DF6F6CA.7514.9BAF5A@localhost>

Bob Grumman:
> > > For a poem to be
> > > successful beyond that, I would say it would have to give each of at
> > > least a few dozen people per year for forty three-and-a-half
> > > years  enough pleasure for each to return to it.<<

Marcus:
> > I'll take this to be a sarcasm and unworthy of remark beyond "Ha ha".

Bob Grumman: 
> No, the figures are sarcastic, the gist is absolutely serious: some number
> of aesthespients (serious aesthespients) per year should get enough pleasure
> from a poem for two generations, say,
> for me to consider the poem exo-successful.<<

Well, then, what number?  And what's "exo-successful" when it's at 
home?  Is it different from "successful"?  Are you making a 
significant distinction by substituting "exo-successful" for 
"successful", or are you just employing your usual array of ambiguous 
jargon?

Bob Grumman:
> The number would have to be
> enough to keep the poem from being completely forgotten.  Beyond that, who
> knows.  I think I'd leave it up to whoever wanted to judge a poem.<

A number that is "enough to keep the poem from being completely 
forgotten", eh?  It won't wash, Bob -- once you start saying that 
there is a threshhold number AND you want to taxonomize based on that 
number, you must name the number.  At that point convenient ambiguity 
and uncertainty have to give way to a distinct and defensible claim.  
If you can't make a distinct and defensible claim, then you have no 
grounds on which to stand with your taxonomy.

 Marcus:
> > Really, Bob -- what are the standards for "successful poem" in your
> > view?  You've got to be able to do better than "Because I like it" on
> > the one hand and the sarcasm of "forty-three years" (and wouldn't it
> > have been more allusive and funny to say "forty two"?)

Bob: 
> Forty-three-and-a half years.

Let me quote you:  "... the figures are sarcastic ...".  You're 
trying to base your whole taxonomy on a sarcasm?  That's insufficient 
at best.

Marcus:
> > on the other
> > if you're going to stake any kind of real claim to being a serious
> > taxonomist of poetry...

Bob: 
> If you're going to stake any kind of real claim to being a serious critic of
> my taxonomy, Marcus, why don't you go to my website at
> http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/lit-tax.html
> and read and critique it.  You might also read and critique what's at
> http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/vispdef.html

I've been to your website, Bob -- you have not a taxonomy there, but 
a theory of art, and there's an important and significant difference 
between the two.  A taxonomy purports to define and order categories 
and then locate the things of the world in those categories, usually 
with the goal of better understanding the relations, and the non-
relations, between the categories and the things.  

What you're trying to do is find a way to include some activities as 
poetry that haven't commonly been thought of as poetry in the past, 
and whose practitioners, you among them, feel slighted by that 
neglect.

In a taxonomy it is perfectly possible, even commonplace at the 
beginnings of taxonomic systems, to define a category that has one or 
few or even no known members -- but having defined that category the 
number of members, or whether the members are common or rare, or 
pretty or useful or good, are simply not conditions of their 
membership in the category.  

More importantly, though, whether the category itself is well- or ill-
recognized as a contributor to the general well-being, or an evil 
aberration, or neutral, is no reason to add it to, or remove it from, 
the taxonomy as a category. And yet you seem to think that, because 
you like one kind of intellectual activity, and want to see it 
privileged as "poetry", there ought to be a category for it under the 
general rubric of "poetry".

Further, you seem to be trying to find the meanings of individual 
poems in the categories themselves into which you put the poems.  But 
you also, simultaneously, rely on an enormous range of sources 
outside your taxonomy for the meaning of the poem.  If the meaning is 
in the taxonomy, why bother to refer to anything other than the 
taxonometric category?  And if the meaning is derived from such 
things as Jungian symbology, or allusions to other poems, and the 
like, then what at all does the taxonomy add to the meaning?

A taxonomy doesn't seem to be the sort of tool you really want in the 
first place, frankly. You seem to be trying to justify calling a 
certain type of activity "poetry" by creating a taxonomic-looking 
sort of grid that allows for that type of activity to be classified 
as "poetry".  Your goal seems to be to try to legitimize some 
activities by labelling them "poetry", innstead of seeking out what 
things have in common and why those commonalities provide reasons to 
make categories that help us to organize the world in coherent and 
congruent ways, the purpose of your approach seems to be to try to 
legitimize a platypus as a mammal by ... well, by just calling it 
one.

> > Bob Grumman:
> > > ... A poem could give no aesthetic pleasure
> > > and still be a success of some sort if it introduced a technique or
> > > image or whatever that made it possible for some other poet to
> > > learn enough from it to make one or more successful poems.<<

Marcus Bales:
> > This is still meaningless if you do not, or cannot, define
> > "successful poem", Bob.  Especially since you seem to be saying that
> > there are at least two ways to be successful:  First, to introduce
> > some new technique in a failed poem that gives some other poet a new
> > tool to create a successful poem, and, Second, to actually write a
> > successful poem.  That's like saying that a table leg that won't hold
> > up a table, a failed table leg, is really a successful table leg even
> > though it won't function as a table leg if someone else, looking at
> > the failure of that table leg to hold up a table, makes another, a
> > new, table leg that does hold up the table.

Bob Grumman: 
> Not quite, Marcus.  But I'm not up to trying to show you why.

Well if this sort of assertion is all it takes, Bob, well, anyone can 
make the same sort of claim.  I can say "Not quite, Bob, but I'm not 
up to trying to show you why" and you have to accept that I'm right 
if you expect others to accept that your *mere claim* that you're 
right means you are.  And so, then, Bob, you see, we have two 
competing claims and no way to address whatever agreement or 
disagreement we might have on reasoned grounds because you've staked 
out your claim on the irrational grounds that any mere claim without 
any evidence to support it is all anyone needs in order to resist any 
counter-claim.

By taking this position you have thrown reason and evidence overboard 
and have taken up a religion: the Grummanite Taxonomy -- a religion 
in which you simply believe not only since you can't offer any 
reasoned support for it but, it seems, *because* you can't offer any 
reasoned support for it. 

> > Marcus Bales:
> > > What if that one aesthespient is the artist?  Is that
> > > > enough?
> >
> > Bob Grumman:
> > > I would taxonomize successfulnesses, as above.

Marcus Bales:
> > But you haven't taxonomized it above, Bob -- you've only made
> > ambiguity yet more unclear.

Bob Grumman: 
> What a shame.

Another sarcasm -- is that really the best you can do?  Instead of 
reason and evidence you offer dismissive sarcasms?

Bob Grumman:
> Marcus, once again I must tell you that you seem neither able to recognize
> the difference between the airing of ideas and the construction of
> rigorously logical systems of ideas, nor understand much more than half of
> what I am saying (which I doubt is all my fault).

Well if all you're doing is airing ideas then you have to be prepared 
to find them made of lead, or that they get away from you, or that 
they're otherwise just not very good ideas. Your notion that just by 
the mere airing of an idea you ought to get credit for rigorous-
enough construction that you are not responsible for answering any 
objections to the ideas you air seems to be not a claim that you're 
merely airing ideas but rather a claim that your ideas are privileged 
against criticism.

And as for the personal attack, well, I guess it's a change from 
sarcasm and avoidance, but that, too, is a specious defense of 
whatever ideas you're trying out.  I think the problem here is that I 
understand all too well what you're trying to do, and it's bogus.  
This is not to say that YOU are bogus, Bob -- I'm sure you're a good 
person, kind to animals and your significant others, and pay your 
taxes on time and the like -- but that your notion of a taxonomy of 
poetry without adequate definitions of either the subject or the 
categories into which you would parse the subject is bogus as it 
stands. It is in dire need of revision.  

It's like trying to tell the difference between a bird and a mammal 
without being willing to distinguish animals from rocks before you 
start, and without any clear idea of whether an imaginary construct 
such as a griffon is merely imaginary and not to be taxonomized, or 
whether to assign it now to the bird and then to the mammal class, or 
make a new class of imaginary animals to account for it, and where 
"imaginary animals" fit into a taxonomy of "real animals".  

Your notion that you can taxonomize poetry without adequate 
definitions, without being willing to identify the characteristics on 
which you're going to make taxonomic judgments, results not in 
anything resembling a taxonomy but, rather, an anthology.  There's 
nothing wrong with an anthology, Bob -- unless the anthologist claims 
to be a taxonomist.

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From gmguddi  Wed Dec 11 09:32:55 2002
From: gmguddi (gmguddi at ilstu.edu)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 08:32:55 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject)
Message-ID: <1039617175.3df74c97ca85d@webmail2.ilstu.edu>

*Sun Out* is out. Saw it in Grolier bookshop Cambridge two weeks ago.guh

Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 19:55:22 -0800
From: 
David Graham wrote:
Tony wrote:


------------------------------------------------------------
Illinois State University Webmail https://webmail2.ilstu.edu



From rlong  Wed Dec 11 09:46:50 2002
From: rlong (Richard Long)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 08:46:50 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Winter Issue of 2RV
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021211084607.01c32c08@pop3.slu.edu>

2River just released 2River The 7.2 (Fall 2003) issue of The 2River View, 
with new poems by Walter Bargen, Rachel Dacus, Raymond Farr, William 
Neumire, Lissa Nilson, Joanna Pearson, Jessy Randall, Dan Sicoli, Merry 
Speece, and John Straw; and art by Tantra Bensko.

Richard Long

======
2River
www.2River.org




From halvard  Wed Dec 11 12:41:31 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:41:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Allen Ginsberg, "Bayonne Entering NYC"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEJNFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Bayonne Entering NYC

Smog trucks mile after mile high wire
          Pylons trestled toward New York
	     black multilane highway showered w/ blue arc-lamps,
			city glare horizoning
		      Megalopolis with burning factories--
Bayonne refineries behind Newark Hell-light
          truck trains passing trans-continental gas-lines,
	   blinking safety signs KEEP AWAKE
Giant giant giant transformers,
	   electricity Stacks' glowing smoke--
         More Chimney fires than all Kansas in a mile,
Sulphur chemical Humble gigantic viaducts
			        networked by road side
		What smell burning rubber, oil
					"freshens your mouth"
	  Railroad rust, deep marsh garbage-fume
					   Nostril horns--
          city Announcer jabbering at City Motel,
	   flat winking space ships descending overhead
			GORNEY GORNEY MORTUARY
          Brilliant signs the
	     10 PM clock churchspire lit in Suburb City,
	     New Jersey's colored streets asleep--
          High derrick spotlites lamped an inch above 
                                                              roofcombs
	        Shoprite lit for Nite people before the vast
          Hohokus marshes and Passaic's flat gluey
		     Blackness ringed with lightbulbs.
Blue Newark airport,
                   Lights at the field edge,
                            Robot towers blazon's Eastern Air TWA
                            above the lavender bulbed runway
                     across the barrage of car bridges--

I was born there in Newark
           Public Service sign of the twenties
                 visible miles away through smoke
                        gray night over electric fields
My aunts and uncles died in hospitals,
           are buried in graves surrounded by Railroad Tracks,
              tombed near Winking 3 Ring Ballantine Ale's home
                    where Western Electric has a Cosmic plant,
              Pitt-Consoles breaths forth fumes
                    acrid above Flying Service tanks
                    Where superhighway rises over Monsanto
                                metal structure moonlit
                    Pulaski Skyway hanging airy black in heaven my childhood
                    neighbored with gigantic harbor stacks,
                                                      steam everywhere
             Blue Star buses skimming skyroads
                        beside th'antennae mazes
                                     brilliant by Canalside--

Empire State's orange shoulders lifted above the Hell,
New York City buildings glitter
                       visible over Palisades' trees
                  Guys From War put tiger in yr Tank--'
            Radio crawling with Rockmusic youngsters,
                                         STOP--PAY TOLL
            let the hitchhiker off in the acrid Mist--
   Blue uniformed attendants rocking on their heels in green booths
            Light parade everywhere
   Cliff rooms, balconies & giant nineteenth century schools,
            reptilian trucks on Jersey roads
Manhattan star-spread behind Ft. Lee cliffside
                Evening lights reflected across Hudson water--
           brilliant diamond-lantern'd Tunnel
                Whizz of bus-trucks shimmer in Ear
                                              over red brick
                     under Whitmanic Yawp Harbor here
                             roll into Man city, my city, Mannahatta
                                          Lower East Side ghosted &
           grimed with Heroin, shit-black from Edison towers
                                          on East River's rib--

Green-hatted doormen awaken the eye
                                      in statuary-niched yellow lobbies--
          zephyrous canyons brightlit, gray stone Empire State
                                      too small to be God
                      lords it over sweet Macy's & Seafood City
                              by junkie Grant Hotel--
Ho Ho turn right by the Blackman who crosses the street
                      lighting his cigarette, lone on asphalt
                              as the Lord in Nebraska--
         Down 5th Avenue, brr--the irregular spine
                                       of streetlights--
                       traffic signals all turned red at once--
                       insect lamps blink in dim artery
             replicated down stone vales to Union Square--
                                In silence wait to see your home
         Cemented asphalt, wire roof-banked,
                       canyoned, hived & churched with mortar,
                                        mortised with art gas--
                                        passing Ginsberg Machine Co.
th'axhead antique Flatiron
                 Building looms, old photographs
                                          parked in the mind--
         Cannastra your 21st Street lofts dark no more raw
                                                      meat law business
          Tonite Naomi your 18th Westside Stalinesque
                           madstreet's blocked by a bus,
          Dusty your 16th (drunk in yr party dress) walls
                       emptiness Hudson River perspectiv'd
          Dali in London? Joe Army yr brokenbone Churches
                                                  stand brown in time--
                           How quiet Washington Monument!
                & fairy youth turns head downstreet
                        crossing 5th Avenue under trafficlite,
                doorman playing poodledog
                        on brilliant-lit sidewalk No. 1.
         an old reporter w/ brown leather briefcase
                          leaves the shiny-pillared apartment--
Gee it's a Miracle to be back on this street
               where strange guy mustache
                             stares in the windowshield--
           Lovely the Steak Sign! bleeps on & off
                           beneath the Woman's prison--
           Sixth Avenue bus back-window bright glass
                        Lady in kerchief leans backward,
           corner Whalen's Drugs, an old Beret familiar face
                                             nods goodbye girl
Humm, Macdougal I lived here,
                  Humm, perfect, there's empty space
                        Park by the bright-lit bookstore
             Where I'll find my mail
                  & Harmonium, new from Calcutta
Waiting I come back to New York & begin to Sing.

						March 1966

--Allen Ginsberg

fr. *Collected Poems: 1947-1980*
[New York: Harper & Row, 1984]

A slightly different version appeared earlier
in *The Fall of America: poems of these states: 1965-71*
[San Francisco: City Lights, 1972]


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard


						
                       
              




From barry.spacks  Wed Dec 11 14:49:07 2002
From: barry.spacks (Barry Spacks)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:49:07 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1150 - 2 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20021211170101.C9C8110626@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021211114717.00a15090@incoming.verizon.net>

To hear Garrison Keiller read Barry Spacks' poem "At 35"
http://www.writersalmanac.org/docs/02_12_02.htm
Read on Prairie Home Companion's Reader's Almanac Dec 8, 2002

(came as a pleasant surprise to me; Keiller reads it exactly as I do!)

Barry
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From ccooley  Wed Dec 11 15:14:09 2002
From: ccooley (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 12:14:09 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] art & empathy & transcendence
In-Reply-To: <20021209121802.328AB10657@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <IFEJKAJEJBEOJGHBHOCHCEMKCCAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>

Marcus wrote:
> Everyone, in your view, is a whore, and we're all only
> dickering about our prices, right?

cc:
In truth, Mr. Bales, I believe we are all divinities.  When our minds read
fear and desire in the phenomena of experience (people, texts, objects,
thoughts), we suffer; and suffering prevents us from experiencing our divine
nature: the miracle of existence, "the peace that passeth understanding."

Finnegan wrote:
> You can't transcend...

cc:
Except on the "wide wings of the present tense".





From bobgrumman  Wed Dec 11 15:48:08 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 15:48:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy & art
References: <3DF6F6CA.7514.9BAF5A@localhost>
Message-ID: <003b01c2a156$a1697e60$14cefea9@j1c1k6>

> Bob Grumman:
> > > > For a poem to be
> > > > successful beyond that, I would say it would have to give each of at
> > > > least a few dozen people per year for forty three-and-a-half
> > > > years  enough pleasure for each to return to it.<<
>
> Marcus:
> > > I'll take this to be a sarcasm and unworthy of remark beyond "Ha ha".
>
> Bob Grumman:
> > No, the figures are sarcastic, the gist is absolutely serious: some
number
> > of aesthespients (serious aesthespients) per year should get enough
pleasure
> > from a poem for two generations, say,
> > for me to consider the poem exo-successful.<<
>
> Well, then, what number?

Who cares?

And what's "exo-successful" when it's at
> home?  Is it different from "successful"?  Are you making a
> significant distinction by substituting "exo-successful" for
> "successful", or are you just employing your usual array of ambiguous
> jargon?

Reread my previous post or the one before it.  This time try to understand
what I am saying instead of looking for statements you can distort
sufficiently to make it look like I'm a yo-yo--in your mind, at any rate.


> Bob Grumman:
> > The number would have to be
> > enough to keep the poem from being completely forgotten.  Beyond that,
who
> > knows.  I think I'd leave it up to whoever wanted to judge a poem.<
>
> A number that is "enough to keep the poem from being completely
> forgotten", eh?  It won't wash, Bob -- once you start saying that
> there is a threshhold number AND you want to taxonomize based on that
> number, you must name the number.  At that point convenient ambiguity
> and uncertainty have to give way to a distinct and defensible claim.
> If you can't make a distinct and defensible claim, then you have no
> grounds on which to stand with your taxonomy.

Fine.

>  Marcus:
> > > Really, Bob -- what are the standards for "successful poem" in your
> > > view?  You've got to be able to do better than "Because I like it" on
> > > the one hand and the sarcasm of "forty-three years" (and wouldn't it
> > > have been more allusive and funny to say "forty two"?)
>
> Bob:
> > Forty-three-and-a half years.
>
> Let me quote you:  "... the figures are sarcastic ...".  You're
> trying to base your whole taxonomy on a sarcasm?  That's insufficient
> at best.

Nuts.  (Incidentally, this is a good example of your manner of misreading: I
use two numbers sarcastically as a small part in a discussion of
what a successful poem is, in my view, and you convert my to basing "my
whole taxonomy on A sarcasm."

> Marcus:
> > > on the other
> > > if you're going to stake any kind of real claim to being a serious
> > > taxonomist of poetry...
>
> Bob:
> > If you're going to stake any kind of real claim to being a serious
critic of
> > my taxonomy, Marcus, why don't you go to my website at
> > http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/lit-tax.html
> > and read and critique it.  You might also read and critique what's at
> > http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/vispdef.html
>
> I've been to your website, Bob -- you have not a taxonomy there, but
> a theory of art, and there's an important and significant difference
> between the two.  A taxonomy purports to define and order categories
> and then locate the things of the world in those categories, usually
> with the goal of better understanding the relations, and the non-
> relations, between the categories and the things.

Marcus, I don't think even you are stupid enough to believe that what I have
at the first URL above is not a taxonomy.  Go read it.  I start with verbal
expression, which I define and break down into three categories (I think),
one of which is literature.  I define the three categories and break
literature down into subcategories, etc.  If this is not a taxonomy, your
merely describing it as not a taxonomy is unhelpful.  You need to apply your
definition to what I've written and show why, with examples, what I've
written is not a taxonomy.

> What you're trying to do is find a way to include some activities as
> poetry that haven't commonly been thought of as poetry in the past,
> and whose practitioners, you among them, feel slighted by that
> neglect.

You're referring to the essay at the second URL.

> In a taxonomy it is perfectly possible, even commonplace at the
> beginnings of taxonomic systems, to define a category that has one or
> few or even no known members -- but having defined that category the
> number of members, or whether the members are common or rare, or
> pretty or useful or good, are simply not conditions of their
> membership in the category.

Nor have I said it was.

> More importantly, though, whether the category itself is well- or ill-
> recognized as a contributor to the general well-being, or an evil
> aberration, or neutral, is no reason to add it to, or remove it from,
> the taxonomy as a category. And yet you seem to think that, because
> you like one kind of intellectual activity, and want to see it
> privileged as "poetry", there ought to be a category for it under the
> general rubric of "poetry".

My motives for my taxonomy (and here you speak of my making up a
category--how is that not taxonomizing?) are irrelevant.  Of course, you
have them wrong.  I worked up an extended taxonomy of poetry because certain
artworks were being composed that seemed outside of all known categories of
art.  I decided that SOME of them fit under the category of "poetry," and
showed why.  You haven't shown why not.

> Further, you seem to be trying to find the meanings of individual
> poems in the categories themselves into which you put the poems.

The essay taxonomizes and discusses.  Why can't it be allowed to do two
things?

But
> you also, simultaneously, rely on an enormous range of sources
> outside your taxonomy for the meaning of the poem.  If the meaning is
> in the taxonomy, why bother to refer to anything other than the
> taxonometric category?  And if the meaning is derived from such
> things as Jungian symbology, or allusions to other poems, and the
> like, then what at all does the taxonomy add to the meaning?

Why can't a poem's meaning be derived from its taxonomical category AND
other things?  But I feel you're going far afield here.  My taxonomy sorts
out varieties of poems based on the techniques mainly used in composing
them.  It has little to do with determining any given poems meaning.  In my
essay, I discuss the meanings of the poems I use as examples of specimens of
each category extra-taxonomically.

> A taxonomy doesn't seem to be the sort of tool you really want in the
> first place, frankly. You seem to be trying to justify calling a
> certain type of activity "poetry" by creating a taxonomic-looking
> sort of grid that allows for that type of activity to be classified
> as "poetry".  Your goal seems to be to try to legitimize some
> activities by labelling them "poetry", innstead of seeking out what
> things have in common and why those commonalities provide reasons to
> make categories that help us to organize the world in coherent and
> congruent ways, the purpose of your approach seems to be to try to
> legitimize a platypus as a mammal by ... well, by just calling it
> one.

Why can't you just forget what you think is my goal, Marcus, and analyze
what I do?

> > > Bob Grumman:
> > > > ... A poem could give no aesthetic pleasure
> > > > and still be a success of some sort if it introduced a technique or
> > > > image or whatever that made it possible for some other poet to
> > > > learn enough from it to make one or more successful poems.<<
>
> Marcus Bales:
> > > This is still meaningless if you do not, or cannot, define
> > > "successful poem", Bob.  Especially since you seem to be saying that
> > > there are at least two ways to be successful:  First, to introduce
> > > some new technique in a failed poem that gives some other poet a new
> > > tool to create a successful poem, and, Second, to actually write a
> > > successful poem.  That's like saying that a table leg that won't hold
> > > up a table, a failed table leg, is really a successful table leg even
> > > though it won't function as a table leg if someone else, looking at
> > > the failure of that table leg to hold up a table, makes another, a
> > > new, table leg that does hold up the table.
>
> Bob Grumman:
> > Not quite, Marcus.  But I'm not up to trying to show you why.
>
> Well if this sort of assertion is all it takes, Bob, well, anyone can
> make the same sort of claim.  I can say "Not quite, Bob, but I'm not
> up to trying to show you why" and you have to accept that I'm right
> if you expect others to accept that your *mere claim* that you're
> right means you are.  And so, then, Bob, you see, we have two
> competing claims and no way to address whatever agreement or
> disagreement we might have on reasoned grounds because you've staked
> out your claim on the irrational grounds that any mere claim without
> any evidence to support it is all anyone needs in order to resist any
> counter-claim.

Gosh, I learn so much from you, Marcus.

> By taking this position you have thrown reason and evidence overboard
> and have taken up a religion: the Grummanite Taxonomy -- a religion
> in which you simply believe not only since you can't offer any
> reasoned support for it but, it seems, *because* you can't offer any
> reasoned support for it.

I can't quite understand what you get out of throwing moronic arguments at
people until they won't argue with you anymore, Marcus.

> > > Marcus Bales:
> > > > What if that one aesthespient is the artist?  Is that
> > > > > enough?
> > >
> > > Bob Grumman:
> > > > I would taxonomize successfulnesses, as above.
>
> Marcus Bales:
> > > But you haven't taxonomized it above, Bob -- you've only made
> > > ambiguity yet more unclear.
>
> Bob Grumman:
> > What a shame.
>
> Another sarcasm -- is that really the best you can do?  Instead of
> reason and evidence you offer dismissive sarcasms?
>
> Bob Grumman:
> > Marcus, once again I must tell you that you seem neither able to
recognize
> > the difference between the airing of ideas and the construction of
> > rigorously logical systems of ideas, nor understand much more than half
of
> > what I am saying (which I doubt is all my fault).
>
> Well if all you're doing is airing ideas then you have to be prepared
> to find them made of lead, or that they get away from you, or that
> they're otherwise just not very good ideas. Your notion that just by
> the mere airing of an idea you ought to get credit

Why can't you unad hominem for at least a little while, Marcus.  Why are you
so sure I'm trying to pick up credit instead of simply throwing some ideas
out onto a few screens?


for rigorous-
> enough construction that you are not responsible for answering any
> objections to the ideas

Ah, you mean I have not answered any of your objections?

>you air seems to be not a claim that you're
> merely airing ideas but rather a claim that your ideas are privileged
against criticism.

> And as for the personal attack, well, I guess it's a change from
> sarcasm and avoidance, but that, too, is a specious defense of
> whatever ideas you're trying out.  I think the problem here is that I
> understand all too well what you're trying to do, and it's bogus.
> This is not to say that YOU are bogus, Bob -- I'm sure you're a good
> person, kind to animals and your significant others, and pay your
> taxes on time and the like -- but that your notion of a taxonomy of
> poetry without adequate definitions of either the subject or the
> categories into which you would parse the subject is bogus as it
> stands. It is in dire need of revision.
>
> It's like trying to tell the difference between a bird and a mammal
> without being willing to distinguish animals from rocks before you
> start, and without any clear idea of whether an imaginary construct
> such as a griffon is merely imaginary and not to be taxonomized, or
> whether to assign it now to the bird and then to the mammal class, or
> make a new class of imaginary animals to account for it, and where
> "imaginary animals" fit into a taxonomy of "real animals".
>
> Your notion that you can taxonomize poetry without adequate
> definitions, without being willing to identify the characteristics on
> which you're going to make taxonomic judgments, results not in
> anything resembling a taxonomy but, rather, an anthology.  There's
> nothing wrong with an anthology, Bob -- unless the anthologist claims
> to be a taxonomist.
>
> Marcus Bales
>
> marcus at designerglass.com
> http://www.designerglass.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From bardo  Wed Dec 11 20:11:11 2002
From: bardo (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 20:11:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy & art
References: <20021203170102.5C31F101C5@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
 <3DF1B217.5229.2C8841@localhost> <003901c29df7$c4cac060$5e07fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <006f01c2a17b$5e311700$ec59bd18@MULDER>

To loop back a bit, I'd interject an observation from Nathaniel Tarn:

 Another thing we learn from linguistics and communication theory is that
you have to surprise the receiver of a communication if you wish to get and
keep her/his attention. This, in the end, as Diaghilev knew when he said to
Cocteau "Jeune Homme, Etonnez-moi!" is the rock on which art, all art, is
ultimately built, the irreducible element on which the whole church
functions and without which it totally fails to function. In about 95 cases
out of a hundred, an art object is only to achieve success if it says
something the receiver has not seen or heard or thought before.

http://jacketmagazine.com/06/tarn-new-form.html

It seems to me that a taxonomy militates against such perception of novelty
insofar as it functions like Masterplots or any similar classification which
sees everything new as just another version of "been there, done that."
Taxonomy appears to look backward; innovation, forward. Perhaps a genuine
innovation would stymie the taxonomist--or at least not find itself "always
already" engulfed by the amoeboid pseudopods of a system determined to
metabolize it into its own protoplasmic, body-snatcher pods. I haven't
really determined whether Bob's taxonomy fits into that category (aarrgghhh!
I feel the bubbly pod-ooze licking my ankles as I write . . .), but I
appreciate this tete-a-tete, however much it spawns goose-eggs on the
noggin.

Dan



----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 8:51 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy & art


> Just to cut in while the thought is in my head: I don't think empathy has
> anything important to do with art.  All human (and animal) communication
> tries for empathy.  Any communication that fails to get it is bad
> communication, including poetry.  But judging a poem on whether it creates
> empathy is
> silly, it seems to me.  What a poem should try to do is use words to
create
> a pleasurable response, the greater, more sustained, and more
complicatingly
> ramifying the better.
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
>
> > > > Marcus Bales:
> > > > the apt uses of those skills and techniques that successfully create
> > > > empathy in the reader is good art, while inept uses that do not
> > > > succeed in creating empathy in the reader is bad art, in my view.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>





From bobgrumman  Thu Dec 12 05:40:01 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 05:40:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy & art
References: <20021203170102.5C31F101C5@wiz.cath.vt.edu><3DF1B217.5229.2C8841@localhost> <003901c29df7$c4cac060$5e07fea9@j1c1k6> <006f01c2a17b$5e311700$ec59bd18@MULDER>
Message-ID: <002301c2a1ca$d3857600$711afea9@j1c1k6>

> To loop back a bit, I'd interject an observation from Nathaniel Tarn:
>
>  Another thing we learn from linguistics and communication theory is that
> you have to surprise the receiver of a communication if you wish to get
and
> keep her/his attention. This, in the end, as Diaghilev knew when he said
to
> Cocteau "Jeune Homme, Etonnez-moi!" is the rock on which art, all art, is
> ultimately built, the irreducible element on which the whole church
> functions and without which it totally fails to function. In about 95
cases
> out of a hundred, an art object is only to achieve success if it says
> something the receiver has not seen or heard or thought before.

I'd say 100%.  But it must also say a great many things the receiver HAS
seen or heard before.  A taxonomy only outlines very roughly what a receiver
should expect.  Calling something a poem, for instance, does not prevent all
artworks labeled poems from giving receivers something new.

I think one should think of a taxonomy as simply a description of a set of
facts--just as a poem is, but with a different but not lesser intention.

--Bob G.

> http://jacketmagazine.com/06/tarn-new-form.html
>
> It seems to me that a taxonomy militates against such perception of
novelty
> insofar as it functions like Masterplots or any similar classification
which
> sees everything new as just another version of "been there, done that."
> Taxonomy appears to look backward; innovation, forward. Perhaps a genuine
> innovation would stymie the taxonomist--or at least not find itself
"always
> already" engulfed by the amoeboid pseudopods of a system determined to
> metabolize it into its own protoplasmic, body-snatcher pods. I haven't
> really determined whether Bob's taxonomy fits into that category
(aarrgghhh!
> I feel the bubbly pod-ooze licking my ankles as I write . . .), but I
> appreciate this tete-a-tete, however much it spawns goose-eggs on the
> noggin.
>
> Dan
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 8:51 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy & art
>
>
> > Just to cut in while the thought is in my head: I don't think empathy
has
> > anything important to do with art.  All human (and animal) communication
> > tries for empathy.  Any communication that fails to get it is bad
> > communication, including poetry.  But judging a poem on whether it
creates
> > empathy is
> > silly, it seems to me.  What a poem should try to do is use words to
> create
> > a pleasurable response, the greater, more sustained, and more
> complicatingly
> > ramifying the better.
> >
> > --Bob G.
> >
> >
> >
> > > > > Marcus Bales:
> > > > > the apt uses of those skills and techniques that successfully
create
> > > > > empathy in the reader is good art, while inept uses that do not
> > > > > succeed in creating empathy in the reader is bad art, in my view.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From halvard  Thu Dec 12 11:48:18 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 11:48:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ann Lauterbach, "Gramercy Park Evening"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECELEFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Gramercy Park Evening

I am, in these instances, aware
there is much to be desired, much left to desire,
and the rest abided. The late hour has everything
turned down; even the constant fleet of wheels
is another noise: less. I was trying to sleep
and to imagine us near the sea, the light
skinny and unhedged, the sea
a ribbed plate, a wide blue absolute
into which pink is introduced like an idea in music.

Desire is an aspect of ethics; belief is not.
You can move a peach across the table
without changing its color but the light, this light,
casts a shadow of doubt. What we perceive
is part dream, part deceit; what we want 
touches knowledge. The park is something you
could not know about: late afternoon, a walk,
the walk I sometimes took towards a cadence
of real images: the gate, the grass, the lock.
There was a sense that things were lit
from within, of high, shut carriages and women in hats.

--Ann Lauterbach

fr. *Many Times, But Then* (1979)
in *If in Time: Selected Poems: 1975-2000*
[New York: Penguin Poets, 2001]

Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard





From ccooley  Thu Dec 12 12:35:18 2002
From: ccooley (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 09:35:18 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] writer's almanac
In-Reply-To: <20021212103702.0C9D7101C7@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <IFEJKAJEJBEOJGHBHOCHIENFCCAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>

Congratulations Barry!  

> From: Barry Spacks <barry.spacks at verizon.net>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1150 - 2 msgs
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> --=====================_97909592==_.ALT
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
> 
> To hear Garrison Keiller read Barry Spacks' poem "At 35"
> http://www.writersalmanac.org/docs/02_12_02.htm
> Read on Prairie Home Companion's Reader's Almanac Dec 8, 2002
> 
> (came as a pleasant surprise to me; Keiller reads it exactly as I do!)
> 
> Barry





From GrahamD  Thu Dec 12 13:02:05 2002
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 12:02:05 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Song & Story
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E8702D@mail.ripon.edu>

Recent conversation got me re-reading David Mason's book, which I enjoyed
the first time through and am also enjoying on a second pass.  He is
certainly unafraid to take positions that will not be universally approved.
I'll excerpt below from a review in the collection.  The review begins by
asking why so much contemporary poetry is so dull, and his example of
Dulness is Charles Wright, chided for flat language and narrative opacity.
Counter-examples are Josephine Jacobsen and Ellen Bryant Voigt.  

This is near the end of the piece:


"Giving the world its due--that is a fine task for the poet, not succumbing
to some easy and self-defeating relativism.  As a reader I appreciate poets
who command the page and, better still, the voice.  Precise and memorable
language arises from such control, and the greatest poets take our breath
away by writing nearly always at that pitch.  No one considered in this
review [of Charles Wright, Josephine Jacobsen, & Ellen Bryant Voigt] comes
up to that level--Shakespeare has not been reincarnated--but in the best of
the twenty-nine books I considered, there were glimmerings of hope for the
language, which in turn gave me hope about life.  That is a paradox of
poetry; it can sing despairingly and find help in the song.  It can also
tell stories.  Both singing and storytelling are poetry's most ancient and
enduring functions, and I find it incredible that so many contemporary poets
attempt to deny this truth one way or another."

--David Mason.  *The Poetry of Life and the Life of Poetry*.  Story Line
Press, 2000.

============================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality:  personal, 
undergraduate education."
Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================




From Edward.Byrne  Thu Dec 12 13:38:57 2002
From: Edward.Byrne (Edward Byrne)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 12:38:57 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Song & Story
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E8702D@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <SIMEON.10212121257.A@muahost.valpo.edu>

David,

Thanks for mentioning Mason's book.  I will try to add this to my 
"Christmas break reading list," especially since I recommended Charles 
Wright's new collection as one of the best of 2002 and I have written 
extensively of my appreciation for Wright's work, as in the following:
http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/byrnereviewwright.html

--Ed

> Recent conversation got me re-reading David Mason's book, which I 
> enjoyed the first time through and am also enjoying on a second pass.  
> He is certainly unafraid to take positions that will not be universally 
> approved. I'll excerpt below from a review in the collection.  The 
> review begins by asking why so much contemporary poetry is so dull, and 
> his example of Dulness is Charles Wright, chided for flat language and 
> narrative opacity. Counter-examples are Josephine Jacobsen and Ellen 
> Bryant Voigt.  
> 
> This is near the end of the piece:
> 
> 
> "Giving the world its due--that is a fine task for the poet, not 
> succumbing to some easy and self-defeating relativism.  As a reader I 
> appreciate poets who command the page and, better still, the voice.  
> Precise and memorable language arises from such control, and the 
> greatest poets take our breath away by writing nearly always at that 
> pitch.  No one considered in this review [of Charles Wright, Josephine 
> Jacobsen, & Ellen Bryant Voigt] comes up to that level--Shakespeare has 
> not been reincarnated--but in the best of the twenty-nine books I 
> considered, there were glimmerings of hope for the language, which in 
> turn gave me hope about life.  That is a paradox of poetry; it can sing 
> despairingly and find help in the song.  It can also tell stories.  
> Both singing and storytelling are poetry's most ancient and enduring 
> functions, and I find it incredible that so many contemporary 
> poets attempt to deny this truth one way or another."
> 
> --David Mason.  *The Poetry of Life and the Life of Poetry*.  Story Line
> Press, 2000.
> 
> ============================================
> David Graham

--------------------------------------------------

Edward Byrne
Department of English
322 Huegli Hall
Valparaiso University
Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493

E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu
http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/

Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu
http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/
Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
Fax: (219) 464-5511

--------------------------------------------------




From paul.lake  Thu Dec 12 14:31:43 2002
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 13:31:43 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] One for the Holiday
Message-ID: <BA1E403F.3CC8%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

                 Saint Nick



With a frantic scrambling
of groundcrew elves
clearing the runners, tightening harnesses,
your blitz begins;
then, cracking the whip,
you set off scudding
over the frozen tundra,
yo-ho-ing like a pirate at lift-off,
then veering south
toward Boston, Cleveland, Tampa,
those languorous tropics
only dreamed by your mutinous crew
in their clamorous sweatshops.


Meanwhile, below, your Mrs.
sighs thanks for this brief respite.
Clearing a steamy pane,
she gazes out
the hothouse window at the Northern Lights,
thinking of palm trees and morning glories
and with a piercing pang
remembering the cunning slender lad
with a cat burglar?s
step, a safecracker?s
legerdemain, who
tickled her fancy,
turning her silly head
north like a compass needle
toward mythical Thule.


But look at you, decked out
in jackboots and patent leather
accouterments, like a Prussian officer,
all loud guffaws and noble folderol,
but for all that, 
no knight in shining armor;
no patron saint 
of virgins; no 
gaunt ascetic
babe at the inn.
With your gin-rouged cheeks
and bleary leering eye,
your pan-like clatter
of hooves on a slate roof,
you?re a capering satyr,
half man, half pig,
a blubbery ungulate
hogging the show,
a dog in the manger.


A deft second story man,
cramming your flaccid bulk
into the cloacal darkness
of chimneys, then shimmying down,
soot-smeared, into fetid dens
and living rooms, where in
less than a nanosecond
you loosen the drawstrings
of your miraculous sack
and jam a year?s pent-up production
into a dozen slack-jawed stockings;
then, tightening your scrotum,
you wade back in
to the chilly depths
of the hearth and with a resounding
ka-thunk rocket back
to your waiting chariot like an
egg through a bottle neck.


Then--ha!--you?re off again,
face flushed and madly thrashing
the nine fluffed rumps
of your stunned chargers, trespassing
where you will, swooping
low over roofs, and with a crazy whoop
buzzing the courthouse cr?che--
till in a sudden rush
of horror, the thought crosses your mind
that this isn?t what you want
at all: this saintly mission,
this lordly mastery
over a slavish troop
of elves, a plump
hirsute helpmeet?s
dolorous devotions.
You want a svelte
leather-clad vixen
smacking her palm 
with a riding crop!
a jockey Amazon
or hoyden keen to take
you trembling on her knee
and, while you?re mumbling wishes, thrum
from those massive flanks
and huge tympanic sternum,
not that mirthless staccato
godawful ho-ing and hawing, but
grateful brays,
the shivering whimpers and whinnies
of a well-tested animal.


Paul Lake

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]




From cindymonroe  Thu Dec 12 15:05:07 2002
From: cindymonroe (cindymonroe)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 15:05:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] taxonomies and categorization
References: <20021212103701.E36E3101C6@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <000501c2a219$c672f560$a7e9fc40@net>

To anyone interested in categorization, classification, etc, I would
recommend, "Language, Thought, and Logic," by John M. Ellis, (Northwestern,
1993). It's the absolute best book on categorization theory I've ever read,
and highly rigorous.

"...it is often easier to discover a truth than to assign it its proper
place." (Ferdinand de Saussure)

Cindy M.





From bobgrumman  Thu Dec 12 15:17:56 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 15:17:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] taxonomies and categorization
References: <20021212103701.E36E3101C6@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <000501c2a219$c672f560$a7e9fc40@net>
Message-ID: <008101c2a21b$8f1c2bc0$75fcfea9@j1c1k6>

Thanks.  I've never read a book about categorization theory.

--Bob G.


----- Original Message -----
From: "cindymonroe" <cindymonroe at sbcglobal.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 3:05 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] taxonomies and categorization


> To anyone interested in categorization, classification, etc, I would
> recommend, "Language, Thought, and Logic," by John M. Ellis,
(Northwestern,
> 1993). It's the absolute best book on categorization theory I've ever
read,
> and highly rigorous.
>
> "...it is often easier to discover a truth than to assign it its proper
> place." (Ferdinand de Saussure)
>
> Cindy M.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From bobgrumman  Thu Dec 12 16:55:24 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 16:55:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] A New Anthology
References: <20021212103701.E36E3101C6@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <000501c2a219$c672f560$a7e9fc40@net>
Message-ID: <00bc01c2a229$2d3b1200$75fcfea9@j1c1k6>

Three kinds of poems by me in anthology just out called Another South:
Experimental Writing in the South, edited by Bill Lavender.  $30, paperback,
277 pages.  (There's a hardbound version, too.)  Hank Lazer has stuff in it
and an intro.  I think he posts to this group.  Others who post to New
Poetry may be in it, too, but I'm not sure.

C. D. Wright blurbs it "An upstart collection, and it's high time."

I've only skimmed it, but it seems to me to have some good things in it, and
a wide range of poetries.  But it's published by the University of Alabama
which may mean I'm now mainstream . . .

--Bob G.






From tadrichards  Thu Dec 12 22:26:14 2002
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 22:26:14 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] A New Anthology
References: <20021212103701.E36E3101C6@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <000501c2a219$c672f560$a7e9fc40@net> <00bc01c2a229$2d3b1200$75fcfea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <00b801c2a257$64699250$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Bob Grumman mainstream? Is nothing sacred?

Congratulations, Bob.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, December 12, 2002 4:55 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] A New Anthology


> Three kinds of poems by me in anthology just out called Another South:
> Experimental Writing in the South, edited by Bill Lavender.  $30,
paperback,
> 277 pages.  (There's a hardbound version, too.)  Hank Lazer has stuff in
it
> and an intro.  I think he posts to this group.  Others who post to New
> Poetry may be in it, too, but I'm not sure.
>
> C. D. Wright blurbs it "An upstart collection, and it's high time."
>
> I've only skimmed it, but it seems to me to have some good things in it,
and
> a wide range of poetries.  But it's published by the University of Alabama
> which may mean I'm now mainstream . . .
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From bobgrumman  Fri Dec 13 05:37:46 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 05:37:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] A New Anthology
References: <20021212103701.E36E3101C6@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <000501c2a219$c672f560$a7e9fc40@net> <00bc01c2a229$2d3b1200$75fcfea9@j1c1k6> <00b801c2a257$64699250$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <002f01c2a293$adca3e40$fa25fea9@j1c1k6>


> Bob Grumman mainstream? Is nothing sacred?

Hey, it's no laughing matter, Mole--I'm really worried!
 
> Congratulations, Bob.

But thanks, anyway.

--Bob G.




From halvard  Fri Dec 13 08:46:16 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 08:46:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] AWP in Baltimore
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEMLFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Anyone heading for AWP in Baltimore might want
to print out the NYT piece at the following link:

	http://www.nytimes.com/2002/12/13/travel/13HOUR.html

I've nothing to add in terms of B'more entertainment.

Hal     "Once upon a time Baltimore was necessary."
                            --Gertrude Stein
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From halvard  Fri Dec 13 10:32:37 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 10:32:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The White House at 4 A.M.
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEEMOFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

The White House at 4 A.M.

	(A Construction in Wood, Glass, Wire & String)

			--after Giacometti

This President still sleeps. Some say he's "wandered 
about in a dream state, right from the start 
of his career." 

The President's combined elements of Brancusi's verticality
with age-old symbols and totemic
tribal elements,   

the President's cabal, an assortment of existentialists,
refurbished abstract expressionists and even 
a Cuban Dadaist or two,

the President's cronies, their elongated, needlelike
figures; his experiments with mobiles and
reconfigured oil corporations.

The President's skirted most avant-garde movements--
he's deconstructed both women's bodies and
those of evil-doers, he speaks a unique

Zen-like language. His imaginary palaces, surreal
objects, freeze in some past time--silent,
floating. Someone called his works

"fetishes that objectify our desire." He might be
called a "digressor"--a wanderer into cul 
de sacs, abuttin' on our dreams.


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard







From DICK  Thu Dec 12 17:51:25 2002
From: DICK (DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 02 17:51:25 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Logan's reviews in New Criterion
Message-ID: <200212122256.gBCMudbA052618@westrelay01.boulder.ibm.com>

I seem to be too late (or early?) to read his latest online,
on Fairchild et. al.  If anyone clipped it I'd _really_
appreciate a copy - even by snail mail if needs be (backchannel
me if you would.)

But at http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/18/dec99/logan.htm
there's the most succinct and accurate appreciation of
Sharon Olds' poetry I've ever seen - he really tells it
like it is.

Richard



From Henry_Gould  Fri Dec 13 14:03:12 2002
From: Henry_Gould (Henry Gould)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 14:03:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] classificatio
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021213135224.00ac6400@postoffice.brown.edu>

I think poets in the US are distinguishable not by style but by their 
approach (real or hypothetical) to an audience.  There are two major types:

1. Writers.  Poets of this type address a hypothetical reader or 
interlocutor, the more distant and hypothetical the better.  EVERYTHING in 
the "real" world - poetic mentors, teachers, allies, enemies, schools, 
publishers, etc. - are viewed deep down as a kind of dandruff or bugs on 
the windshield:  blocking or distracting the purely hypothetical 
interlocutor [ie. "imaginary friend"].

2.  Clubbable poets.  Poets of this type are fascinated by the social whirl 
of poetry.  This fascination permeates and determines every aspect of the 
work: from style, to professional relationships, to critical dogmatics - 
the works.

Henry




From gmguddi  Fri Dec 13 14:10:34 2002
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 13:10:34 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] classificatio
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021213135224.00ac6400@postoffice.brown.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021213130607.01ac23a0@mail.ilstu.edu>

Henry, this is fascinating to me on a few levels. First because it seems to 
indicate you have adopted, in 1., the view that poetry is a rhetoric, which 
I have long maintained, and about which you and I have posted at length 
(first on the now-defunct but superb SubsubPoetics and second, I think, on 
ImitationPoetics). Second, your categories interest me because of they're, 
well, so seemingly Borgesian at first gland.

That typo stays.

Gabe

At 02:03 PM 12/13/2002 -0500, Henry Gould wrote:
>I think poets in the US are distinguishable not by style but by their 
>approach (real or hypothetical) to an audience.  There are two major types:
>
>1. Writers.  Poets of this type address a hypothetical reader or 
>interlocutor, the more distant and hypothetical the better.  EVERYTHING in 
>the "real" world - poetic mentors, teachers, allies, enemies, schools, 
>publishers, etc. - are viewed deep down as a kind of dandruff or bugs on 
>the windshield:  blocking or distracting the purely hypothetical 
>interlocutor [ie. "imaginary friend"].
>
>2.  Clubbable poets.  Poets of this type are fascinated by the social 
>whirl of poetry.  This fascination permeates and determines every aspect 
>of the work: from style, to professional relationships, to critical 
>dogmatics - the works.
>
>Henry

Gabriel Gudding
Assistant Professor
Department of English
Illinois State University
Normal, IL  61790
office 309.438.5284
home 309.828.8377

http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html




From GrahamD  Fri Dec 13 14:51:10 2002
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 13:51:10 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: classification
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E87030@mail.ripon.edu>

OK, Henry, I'll bite.  Who are some examples of each category of poet?  If
you're not comfortable naming live names, I'll take dead ones.

Inquiring readings want to  know. . . .

============================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality:  personal, 
undergraduate education."
Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> ----------
> From: 	Henry Gould
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Friday, December 13, 2002 1:03 PM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	[New-Poetry] classificatio
> 
> I think poets in the US are distinguishable not by style but by their 
> approach (real or hypothetical) to an audience.  There are two major
> types:
> 
> 1. Writers.  Poets of this type address a hypothetical reader or 
> interlocutor, the more distant and hypothetical the better.  EVERYTHING in
> 
> the "real" world - poetic mentors, teachers, allies, enemies, schools, 
> publishers, etc. - are viewed deep down as a kind of dandruff or bugs on 
> the windshield:  blocking or distracting the purely hypothetical 
> interlocutor [ie. "imaginary friend"].
> 
> 2.  Clubbable poets.  Poets of this type are fascinated by the social
> whirl 
> of poetry.  This fascination permeates and determines every aspect of the 
> work: from style, to professional relationships, to critical dogmatics - 
> the works.
> 
> Henry
> 



From GrahamD  Fri Dec 13 14:52:55 2002
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 13:52:55 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Logan's reviews in New Criterion
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E87031@mail.ripon.edu>

Richard, I was able just now to access the new Logan review at this URL:

http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/21/dec02/logan.htm

============================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality:  personal, 
undergraduate education."
Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> ----------
> From: 	DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Thursday, December 12, 2002 4:51 PM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	[New-Poetry] Logan's reviews in New Criterion
> 
> I seem to be too late (or early?) to read his latest online,
> on Fairchild et. al.  If anyone clipped it I'd _really_
> appreciate a copy - even by snail mail if needs be (backchannel
> me if you would.)
> 
> But at http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/18/dec99/logan.htm
> there's the most succinct and accurate appreciation of
> Sharon Olds' poetry I've ever seen - he really tells it
> like it is.
> 
> Richard
> 



From gmguddi  Fri Dec 13 15:19:56 2002
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 14:19:56 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] classificatio
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021213135224.00ac6400@postoffice.brown.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021213141557.01acb418@mail.ilstu.edu>

Henry I am suspicious of yr "classificatio." My knowledge of you leads me 
to suspect that there is a tacit, unlisted, hidden, sub rosa, hush hush, 
hmm hmm third class of poets you do not mention, like a tenth planet 
wobbling in the background: it is 3: Real Poets. Poets of transcendence and 
sublimity??

Just a wild guess... :)

Gabe, who is writing this email only a few blocks from you (and from 
Mairead). I'm over on Belair Avenue, Henry, just a few blocks from you on 
Brown's campus and a few blocks from Mairead Byrne at RISD's campus

At 02:03 PM 12/13/2002 -0500, Henry Gould wrote:
>I think poets in the US are distinguishable not by style but by their 
>approach (real or hypothetical) to an audience.  There are two major types:
>
>1. Writers.  Poets of this type address a hypothetical reader or 
>interlocutor, the more distant and hypothetical the better.  EVERYTHING in 
>the "real" world - poetic mentors, teachers, allies, enemies, schools, 
>publishers, etc. - are viewed deep down as a kind of dandruff or bugs on 
>the windshield:  blocking or distracting the purely hypothetical 
>interlocutor [ie. "imaginary friend"].
>
>2.  Clubbable poets.  Poets of this type are fascinated by the social 
>whirl of poetry.  This fascination permeates and determines every aspect 
>of the work: from style, to professional relationships, to critical 
>dogmatics - the works.
>
>Henry
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

Gabriel Gudding
Assistant Professor
Department of English
Illinois State University
Normal, IL  61790
office 309.438.5284
home 309.828.8377

http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html




From cindymonroe  Fri Dec 13 15:25:02 2002
From: cindymonroe (cindymonroe)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:25:02 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Story & Song
References: <20021213170103.85D88101C8@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <000b01c2a2e5$b93eb420$2d153ccc@net>

In addition to poets, maybe it's worth noting that both story and song are
also available to, and have been used to masterful effect by, "prose"
writers for centuries. Language in its entirety is what's in the toolbox.
Anyone can choose to use all or only parts of what they find there.

Melville is my favorite example of a writer who slips into and out of poetry
and prose whenever it suits him, especially in Moby Dick. (Mumford writes
about this in detail in "Melville," 1929.) You see something similar in the
work of Dickens, Faulkner, Rushdie, and in the Bible of course.

Nobody seems to have a problem with prose writers slipping into "poetry." In
fact, these sorts of passages are often what make certain works of prose
"great" and memorable. Some people seem to have an issue with poets slipping
into "prose." Doesn't bother me a whit if they do or don't. I'll just say it
again, language in its entirety is what's in the toolbox.

Cindy M.






From Thom424  Fri Dec 13 15:36:44 2002
From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:36:44 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fairchild
Message-ID: <15b.18e7523a.2b2b9edc@aol.com>

Recently, someone posted a link to an audio interview with B. H. 
Fairchild--it may have been to an interview on NPR.

Would you?or anyone?please post that link again if you still have it?  

Thanks.

Thom Tammaro
Moorhead, MN



From DICK  Fri Dec 13 16:04:54 2002
From: DICK (DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 02 16:04:54 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Paul Lake's Santa's wife
Message-ID: <200212132106.gBDL6cRk122018@northrelay04.pok.ibm.com>

"..hirsute helpmate..."?????



From Henry_Gould  Fri Dec 13 16:07:51 2002
From: Henry_Gould (Henry Gould)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 16:07:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: classificatio
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021213155726.00ac4db0@postoffice.brown.edu>

Responding to David:

1. Writers:  Emily Dickinson, Shakespeare, Marlowe, Poe, Mandelstam, & yes 
Gabe, Borges.

2.  Clubbable poets:  All the NY School poets; all the Langpos; all the 
Objectivists; Pound, Eliot, Frost; all the Futurists; all the "group" 
poets; all the poets published in Jacket; all academic poets (maybe Linda 
Bierds an exception? dunno) etc. etc.

these are just off the top of my head, but I'm sure the propinquity & 
telling accuracy of this taxonomy are apparent to everyone.  Hear, hear.

Gabe, I'm so happy to know that you are a few blocks away in the real 
world.  Stay there, buddy. [just kidding]

Gabe asks: is there a sub rhode type of Real Sublime Poet?  That's a 
figment of your Imagination, Collie.

Is poetry a rhetoric?  No.  I never said this typology of poet referred to 
poetry itself.  The Bi-Labial Species Differentiation I have just expounded 
refers only to the poets as people.

best, Henry (nearby in earthly Providence)





From GrahamD  Fri Dec 13 16:23:23 2002
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:23:23 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fairchild
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E87033@mail.ripon.edu>

Thom, it was an NPR spot on All Things Considered.  I found the link on
Poetry Daily, where it is no longer up.  But I imagine it's still available
in the ATC archives.  Aired within the last week or so, I believe.

============================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality:  personal, 
undergraduate education."
Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> ----------
> From: 	Thom424 at aol.com
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Friday, December 13, 2002 2:36 PM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] Fairchild
> 
> Recently, someone posted a link to an audio interview with B. H. 
> Fairchild--it may have been to an interview on NPR.
> 
> Would you-or anyone-please post that link again if you still have it?  
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Thom Tammaro
> Moorhead, MN
> _______________________________________________
> 



From GrahamD  Fri Dec 13 16:26:44 2002
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:26:44 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Fairchild
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E87034@mail.ripon.edu>

Found the Fairchild audio link (requires RealAudio):

http://www.npr.org/ramfiles/atc/20021204.atc.09.ram

============================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality:  personal, 
undergraduate education."
Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> ----------
> From: 	Graham, David
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Friday, December 13, 2002 3:23 PM
> To: 	'new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu'
> Subject: 	RE: [New-Poetry] Fairchild
> 
> Thom, it was an NPR spot on All Things Considered.  I found the link on
> Poetry Daily, where it is no longer up.  But I imagine it's still
> available
> in the ATC archives.  Aired within the last week or so, I believe.
> 
> ============================================
> David Graham
> Professor of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>      Home Page:  
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>      My Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> 
> "We're writing the book on quality:  personal, 
> undergraduate education."
> Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> ============================================
> 
> 
> > ----------
> > From: 	Thom424 at aol.com
> > Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > Sent: 	Friday, December 13, 2002 2:36 PM
> > To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] Fairchild
> > 
> > Recently, someone posted a link to an audio interview with B. H. 
> > Fairchild--it may have been to an interview on NPR.
> > 
> > Would you-or anyone-please post that link again if you still have it?  
> > 
> > Thanks.
> > 
> > Thom Tammaro
> > Moorhead, MN
> > _______________________________________________
> > 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 



From GrahamD  Fri Dec 13 16:46:21 2002
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 15:46:21 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE:  re: classificatio
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E87035@mail.ripon.edu>

Frost as a Clubbable poet?  Hmmm.  Yes, he was a naked careerist and
certainly a gregarious sort, but not clubbable in the usual way I think of
that term.  He was a club of one, for the most part.  "I only go/ When I'm
the show," as he once put it. . .

And a category that includes "all academic poets" under one umbrella?  Not
sure how useful such a huge category might be.

It's hard at this point not to think of Robert Benchley's immortal line
about how there are two kinds of people in this world, those who divide the
world into two kinds of people, and those who don't. . . .

============================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality:  personal, 
undergraduate education."
Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================


> ----------
> From: 	Henry Gould
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Friday, December 13, 2002 3:07 PM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	[New-Poetry] re: classificatio
> 
> Responding to David:
> 
> 1. Writers:  Emily Dickinson, Shakespeare, Marlowe, Poe, Mandelstam, & yes
> 
> Gabe, Borges.
> 
> 2.  Clubbable poets:  All the NY School poets; all the Langpos; all the 
> Objectivists; Pound, Eliot, Frost; all the Futurists; all the "group" 
> poets; all the poets published in Jacket; all academic poets (maybe Linda 
> Bierds an exception? dunno) etc. etc.
> 
> these are just off the top of my head, but I'm sure the propinquity & 
> telling accuracy of this taxonomy are apparent to everyone.  Hear, hear.
> 
> 



From marcus  Fri Dec 13 17:54:19 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 17:54:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: classificatio
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021213155726.00ac4db0@postoffice.brown.edu>
Message-ID: <3DFA1ECB.19621.E7F07@localhost>

Henry:
> Is poetry a rhetoric?  No. ...<<

Yes.



Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From marcus  Fri Dec 13 17:55:26 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 17:55:26 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE:  re: classificatio
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E87035@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <3DFA1F0E.29878.F81BD@localhost>

> It's hard at this point not to think of Robert Benchley's immortal line
> about how there are two kinds of people in this world, those who divide the
> world into two kinds of people, and those who don't. . . .

There are two kinds of people in the world -- those with short term 
memory loss and ... hey, how about those Mets!?


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From Henry_Gould  Fri Dec 13 23:21:58 2002
From: Henry_Gould (Henry_Gould at brown.edu)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 23:21:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: classificatio
Message-ID: <200212140421.gBE4Lwg03781@draco.services.brown.edu>

David,

good point about Robt Frost.  Frost actually falls into the category of that rare breed, the scriptor possibilum, ie. the potential writer who is finally a clubbable poet.
Frost had all the makings of a writer, but he was too systematic, probably because he was broke.  Stevens, the insurance lawyer, was able to achieve writerdom, though the 2 of them began with similar capacities and talents.

Some might question the inclusion of Poe among the writers, since he tried so systematically to be a successful poet based on his analysis of the hypothetical READER.  But Poe's spectacular failures as a professional Author only served to underscore his native scribal capacities, his remarkable presence (in Paris, anyway) as Literatus Extraordinaire.  Poe was the Writer in spite of himself, just as Whitman was the Clubby Poet because of himself (cf. Honig's Walt poem's last line: "underneath he signed his chummy name").

I suppose each one of us Poets and professional People contains the Writer and the Clubbable Poet; only in some individuals (such as Bill Shellman or John Hashbrownie or You-Name-It) the clubbable takes precedence over the writer, and vice versa.  I am sure that somewhere in my sub-basement consciousness the clubbable comes to the fore, especially when I contribute countless person-hours to ephemeral poetry Chat Conversations, or debate the merits of Langpo with Buffalos, & such unique & total malarky. 

until then. . . Henry 




From Henry_Gould  Fri Dec 13 23:22:31 2002
From: Henry_Gould (Henry_Gould at brown.edu)
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 23:22:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: classificatio
Message-ID: <200212140422.gBE4MVg04077@draco.services.brown.edu>

David,

good point about Robt Frost.  Frost actually falls into the category of that rare breed, the scriptor possibilum, ie. the potential writer who is finally a clubbable poet.
Frost had all the makings of a writer, but he was too systematic, probably because he was broke.  Stevens, the insurance lawyer, was able to achieve writerdom, though the 2 of them began with similar capacities and talents.

Some might question the inclusion of Poe among the writers, since he tried so systematically to be a successful poet based on his analysis of the hypothetical READER.  But Poe's spectacular failures as a professional Author only served to underscore his native scribal capacities, his remarkable presence (in Paris, anyway) as Literatus Extraordinaire.  Poe was the Writer in spite of himself, just as Whitman was the Clubby Poet because of himself (cf. Honig's Walt poem's last line: "underneath he signed his chummy name").

I suppose each one of us Poets and professional People contains the Writer and the Clubbable Poet; only in some individuals (such as Bill Shellman or John Hashbrownie or You-Name-It) the clubbable takes precedence over the writer, and vice versa.  I am sure that somewhere in my sub-basement consciousness the clubbable comes to the fore, especially when I contribute countless person-hours to ephemeral poetry Chat Conversations, or debate the merits of Langpo with Buffalos, & such unique & total malarky. 

until then. . . Henry 




From grahamd  Sat Dec 14 12:30:58 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 11:30:58 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Frosty the Writer Man
Message-ID: <200212141730.gBEHUoUm019707@mx8.mx.voyager.net>

>good point about Robt Frost.  Frost actually falls into the category of 
>that rare breed, the scriptor possibilum, ie. the potential writer who is 
>finally a clubbable poet.
>Frost had all the makings of a writer, but he was too systematic, probably 
>because he was broke.  Stevens, the insurance lawyer, was able to achieve 
>writerdom, though the 2 of them began with similar capacities and talents.


Henry, I don't think there's much debate that Frost's achievement fell off
in his later years, some would say drastically so.  He's in good enough
company there:  Whitman, Wordsworth, Dickinson.  We sometimes seem to
forget, in considering Frost's later career, that he was about 40 when he
first published.  So I think that when we sigh over his lost potential, we
might well ask how many poets are writing at white heat in their 60s and 70s
and beyond?  Well, a few.  And Stevens's "The Rock" is all the more
remarkable therefore, yes.  

As for whether or not Frost "achieved writerdom," I would have thought that
the verdict was also pretty obviously in:  Home Burial, A Servant to
Servants, The Most of It, An Old Man's Winter Night, Mowing, After
Apple-Picking, The Oven-Bird, 'Out, Out,' The Silken Tent, Directive. . . .

But you're right, I suppose.  This *kind* of conversation rarely gets beyond
malarky.
========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
undergraduate education."
   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================




From JforJames  Sat Dec 14 22:28:16 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2002 22:28:16 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy & art
Message-ID: <12d.1d7b8828.2b2d50d0@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/12/02 12:39:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
bardo at optonline.net writes:

> nother thing we learn from linguistics and communication theory is that
>  you have to surprise the receiver of a communication if you wish to get and
>  keep her/his attention. This, in the end, as Diaghilev knew when he said to
>  Cocteau "Jeune Homme, Etonnez-moi!" is the rock on which art, all art, is
>  ultimately built, the irreducible element on which the whole church
>  functions and without which it totally fails to function. In about 95 cases
>  out of a hundred, an art object is only to achieve success if it says
>  something the receiver has not seen or heard or thought before.
>  
>  http://jacketmagazine.com/06/tarn-new-form.html
Dan,
not to quarrel with the bit of Tarn you posted, but it's easy to find
a paradox in lines. One can try too hard to stun, to amaze the reader
at every turn and end up with nothing to say (or convey) beyond 
the f/x. Coleridge complained about the modern poet's anxiety to
be always striking...each line/word almost begging to be looked and
praised. (A paraphrase.)  Cocteau and many of the surrealists 
were certainly offenders on this count...all surprises and no crackerjack,
one might say; you walk away with plastic rings on all your fingers
and your forehead spangled with faux tattoos, only to realize a half-hour 
later that you're really hungry.
Finnegan





From bardo  Sun Dec 15 00:24:22 2002
From: bardo (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 00:24:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy & art
References: <12d.1d7b8828.2b2d50d0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <007301c2a3fa$39d977e0$ec59bd18@MULDER>

----- Original Message -----
From: <JforJames at aol.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, December 14, 2002 10:28 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy & art


> In a message dated 12/12/02 12:39:54 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> bardo at optonline.net writes:
>
> > nother thing we learn from linguistics and communication theory is that
> >  you have to surprise the receiver of a communication if you wish to get
and
> >  keep her/his attention. This, in the end, as Diaghilev knew when he
said to
> >  Cocteau "Jeune Homme, Etonnez-moi!" is the rock on which art, all art,
is
> >  ultimately built, the irreducible element on which the whole church
> >  functions and without which it totally fails to function. In about 95
cases
> >  out of a hundred, an art object is only to achieve success if it says
> >  something the receiver has not seen or heard or thought before.
> >
> >  http://jacketmagazine.com/06/tarn-new-form.html
> Dan,
> not to quarrel with the bit of Tarn you posted, but it's easy to find
> a paradox in lines. One can try too hard to stun, to amaze the reader
> at every turn and end up with nothing to say (or convey) beyond
> the f/x. Coleridge complained about the modern poet's anxiety to
> be always striking...each line/word almost begging to be looked and
> praised. (A paraphrase.)  Cocteau and many of the surrealists
> were certainly offenders on this count...all surprises and no crackerjack,
> one might say; you walk away with plastic rings on all your fingers
> and your forehead spangled with faux tattoos, only to realize a half-hour
> later that you're really hungry.
> Finnegan


Well, Jim,

I did quote Tarn in the context of responding to Bob's valorization of
taxonomizing, but I agree with you that novelty per se counts for little if
novelty alone remains (thus the denomination of schlock as 'novelties').
Tarn goes on to discuss the interplay between novelty and tradition in that
piece, and does so elegantly enough that I'll have to reread him a few times
to appreciate his points fully.

I think that when Tarn says "an art object is only to achieve success if it
says something the receiver has not seen or heard or thought before," the
"something" means just that--not "everything." I doubt Tarn meant that, to
succeed, a poem's entire content must astonish and overwhelm the reader;
rather, he appears to hold that a poem must at least do so, and then not
back off from that accomplishment by a retreat to the quotidian for its own
sake or to theory for its own sake. Tarn's qualms with Langpo, for instance,
derive from its commitment to relentless novelty via global referential
eschewal (whoa! That locution surprised even me!).

Even an apt oxymoron might suffice, I think, to hook a reader; the play of
the line will determine whether one can land that catch, though.

;~)

Dan





_______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From mmagee  Sun Dec 15 11:07:54 2002
From: mmagee (Michael Magee)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 11:07:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] COMBO 11 in time for the holidays!!!!
Message-ID: <200212151607.gBFG7sJD012612@dept.english.upenn.edu>

> HO HO HO AND HELLO TO ALL THIS HOLIDAY SEASON!!!!
> 
> LIKE YOUR FAVORITE COCA COLA MODEL, SANTA, I AIM TO BRING YOU THE GREATEST
> GIFT OF ALL:
> 
>                 COMBO 11 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! COMBO 11
> 
> WHAT'S COMBO 11 YOU ASK?
> 
> WHY, IT'S THE ELEVENTH ISSUE OF THE MOST BESTEST 56 PG POETRY MAG AROUND!
> 
> THE MAG THAT'S BROUGHT YOU INTERVIEWS WITH HARRYETTE MULLEN, BILL BERKSON,
> ALICE NOTLEY, ALEX KATZ, THOMAS SAYERS ELLIS, CARLA HARRYMAN.
> 
> AND POEMS BY JOHN ASHBERY, LEE ANN BROWN, HARRYETTE MULLEN, AMIRI BARAKA,
> BOB PERELMAN, CHRIS STROFFOLINO, KRISTEN PREVALLET, HEATHER FULLER, CLARK
> COOLIDGE, MICHAEL GIZZI, LOUIS CABRI, PRAGEETA SHARMA, MARK MCMORRIS, RAY
> DI PALMA, LORENZO THOMAS, KRISTEN GALLAGHER, ANSELM BERRIGAN, BRIAN KIM
> STEFANS, BRUCE ANDREWS, PATTIE MCCARTHY, EDWIN TORRES, ROSMAIRE & KEITH
> WALDROP, LISA LUBASCH, LYTLE SHAW, ALAN GILBERT AND MANY MANY MORE!
> 
> AND, MOST IMPORTANTLY, THE MAG THAT MOST LIKELY INTRODUCED YOU TO
> CARL MARTIN, K. SILEM MOHAMMAD, JESSICA CHIU, MARK SARDINHA, EUGENE
> OSTASHEVSKY, RACHEL RAFFLER, MATT HART, AND MYTILI JAGANNATHAN!
> 
> WHAT'S THAT?  YOU DON'T HAVE A SUBSCRIPTION?
> 
> ARE YOU FUCKIN NUTS?!!??
> 
> WELL, DON'T WORRY, NOW'S YOUR CHANCE:
> 
> COMBO 11 IS NOW AVAILABLE!!!!
> 
> WITH POEMS BY:
> 
> KIT ROBINSON, JORDAN DAVIS, MYTILI JAGANNATHAN, SARA THACHER, MATT HART,
> ALEX LAVIGNE-GAGNON, SUSAN LANDERS, MARK SARDINHA, JULES BOYKOFF, ANGE
> MLINKO, BARBARA COLE, and poems by RACHEL RAFFLER published posthumously.
> 
> PLUS REVIEWS OF...
> 
> BARBARA COLE'S _SITU / ATION / COME / DIES_ by THOM DONOVAN
> JENNIFER MOXLEY'S _THE SENSE RECORD_ by K. SILEM MOHAMMAD
> 
> WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU WAITING FOR?
> 
> $3.00/single copy
> $10/4-issue subscription
> $50.00/LIFETIME SUBSCRIPTION (includes all available back issues)
> 
> Cash or check payable to
> 
> Michael Magee
> 31 Perrin Ave.
> Pawtucket, RI 02861
> 
> NOTE OUR NEW EMAIL ADDRESS:  combo1 at cox.net
> 
> AND STAY TUNED FOR OUR FANCY-ASS NEW WEB DESIGN!
> 
> www.combopoetry.com
> 
> 
> -m.
> 




From tadrichards  Sun Dec 15 11:29:30 2002
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 11:29:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic Justice
References: <12d.1d7b8828.2b2d50d0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004401c2a457$255124a0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>



From gmguddi  Sun Dec 15 21:53:04 2002
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 20:53:04 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Obituary: Dee Brown
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021215205218.01802820@mail.ilstu.edu>

>
>http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/epaper/editions/saturday/metro_d3af5d0fb51e
>51a70071.html
>
>LITTLE ROCK: Dee Brown, 94, author of 'Wounded Knee'
>Associated Press
>Saturday, December 14, 2002
>
>Dee Brown, whose novel "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee" helped bring
>atrocities against Indians to the attention of an American public accustomed
>to tales of heroic cowboys and savage natives, died Thursday of heart
>disease. He was 94.
>
>In that 1971 best seller, Mr. Brown used eyewitness accounts and quotations
>from Indians who lived during the period.
>
>Mr. Brown wrote 28 other books, all on a manual typewriter, examining the
>history of the American West and decline of American Indian culture.
>
>"Hear That Lonesome Whistle Blow: Railroads in the West," a history, turned
>out to be an expose of the treacherous dealings of the railroad companies in
>the development of the West.
>
>-------------------------------------------
>You are subscribed to engdep-l, the discussion list for the English 
>Department at Illinois State University.
>To join or leave the list:  http://www.english.ilstu.edu/join.html
>List archives: http://listserv.ilstu.edu/archives/engdep-l.html




From luap  Mon Dec 16 00:40:11 2002
From: luap (K. Paul Mallasch)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 00:40:11 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] call for poetry
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10212160039280.13075-100000@sauron.spinweb.net>

looking for new, talented poets to join our small but growing poet
community at:

http://www.mallasch.com/mug/

thanks,
kpaul





From ron.silliman  Mon Dec 16 06:01:46 2002
From: ron.silliman (Ron)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 06:01:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Currently on the Blog
Message-ID: <000001c2a4f2$8b5ffdc0$620ff243@Dell>

Starting a longpoem:
Rachel Blau DuPlessis' Drafts

On the postmodern wink:
Why humor doesn't travel well in poetry

It's a wise book that understands its cover:
Three book designs from Lost Roads
(Frank Stanford, Besmilr Brigham &Frank Stanford)

Getting ready to listen: 
The lessons of jazz vs. the problem of regional dialects
(How do you read J.H. Prynne?)

George Stanley's Vancouver -
The epic as journal & the poetry of transit

The Poker: 
Generational anxiety in the age of 114,287 book titles per year

David Markson's Wittgenstein's Mistress:
With whom does a reader identify in the writing?

Jennifer Moxley's The Sense Record:
Writing against fashion

Rachel Blau DuPlessis:
A master demonstrates how to give a reading

Poor Geoffrey Hill!

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/








From Henry_Gould  Mon Dec 16 08:41:44 2002
From: Henry_Gould (Henry Gould)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 08:41:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] writerdom
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021216083143.00a99430@postoffice.brown.edu>

I don't really have a list of poets who fall into my pigeonholes (writer 
vs. clubbable poet).  I'm just curious about a possible distinction to be 
made.  There does appear to be a sort of dissonance or disjunction between 
poetry-making as social activity (Ron Silliman's blog seems an estimable 
example of a very serious focus on the glutinous coagulation of poetry as a 
communal project) and writing as a solitary endeavor.

Mike Magee, if he were on this list, & maybe he is, could probably bring an 
interesting Deweyan-pragmatist perspective to this question (ie. all 
knowledge is social, truths emerge out of doing things, etc.).

I don't think the only factor at stake is personality.  There's the nature 
of written texts, which I tend to think of as black holes - entities which 
have a predilection for distorting time and space.  Why are writers 
creating black holes as a social activity?

Henry




From marcus  Mon Dec 16 09:01:10 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 09:01:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] art & empathy & transcendence
In-Reply-To: <IFEJKAJEJBEOJGHBHOCHCEMKCCAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>
References: <20021209121802.328AB10657@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <3DFD9656.21739.692473@localhost>

> Marcus wrote:
> > Everyone, in your view, is a whore, and we're all only
> > dickering about our prices, right?

> cc:
> In truth, Mr. Bales, I believe we are all divinities.  When our minds read
> fear and desire in the phenomena of experience (people, texts, objects,
> thoughts), we suffer; and suffering prevents us from experiencing our divine
> nature: the miracle of existence, "the peace that passeth understanding."

So, then, is it your view that we ought to seek not to engage with 
people, texts, objects, or thoughts in order not to suffer?



Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From JforJames  Mon Dec 16 10:17:44 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 10:17:44 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] new from faux press
Message-ID: <1b9.ad92ab2.2b2f4898@aol.com>

Subject: Faux 2003
From: J Kimball <jk at fauxpress.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2002 08:01:33 -0500

3 for 03. Available now.

1) Million Poems Journal by Jordan Davis

The first full-length collection from a poet Susan Wheeler calls "smart and
generous." "... cartoon-crisp... fully torqued... laffy." --Gary Sullivan.


2) V. Imp. by Nada Gordon

Mood-riddled hijinx and impudent lyric protest, drama, and parody. "Nonsense
galore, as in a bathhouse." --Viktor Shklovsky.

3) Waltzing Matilda by Alice Notley

The reissue of this long out-of-print book of dialogues invites perusal by
new generations of readers lured by the sound of her highly original new
forms.


Covers by George Schneeman in these colors: kelly green (Jordan's),
aubergine brule (Nada's), and high-pressure sky (Alice's).

13.50 each.

Order from SPD or Faux online or collect all 3 for $30 at

http://www.fauxpress.com



From JforJames  Mon Dec 16 10:23:35 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 10:23:35 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] 50 page Cuban section
Message-ID: <172.135c18c8.2b2f49f7@aol.com>

Date:    Fri, 13 Dec 2002 00:12:49 -0800
From:    Mark Weiss <junction at EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: new publication

Just out: Poetry International VI, with a 50 page Cuban section introduced,
edited, and mostly translated by yours truly.  To order, go to
www-rohan.sdsu.edu/dept/press/poetry.html and select "subscription," where,
oddly, you can buy individual issues.



From halvard  Mon Dec 16 11:50:12 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 11:50:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Harold Dull, "Suibhne Gheilt"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEBPGAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Suibhne Gheilt

I.

He has haunted me now for over a year
that madman Suibhne Gheilt
who in the middle of a battle
looked up and saw something
that made him leap up and fly
over swords and trees
--a poet gifted above all others--

II.

How could a proud loud mouth
who yelled KILL KILL KILL
as he plowed down the enemy
--heads rolling off of his sword--
be so lifted up
(or fly up
as those below saw it
--wings beating)
be so suddenly gifted
with poetry
and nest so high
in Ireland's tall trees?
Is there a point
where all paths cross?
And why am I so drawn to him
that all my questions
seem shot in his direction?
     *And they ran into the woods
       and threw their lances
       and shot their arrows
       up through the branches*
What parallels could I ever hope to find--
my refusal to fight
(weaseling out on psychiatric grounds)?
my leaving my country behind?
my poetry?
     *and my wife wept
       on the path below . . .
       Oh memory is sweet
       but sweeter is the sorrel
       in the pool in the path below
       I fly down everynight
       to eat*

III.

Sweeney like the rest of us
would've been better off
if he had never had anything to do with women.
But the point of it lies hidden
in a pool of milk
in a pile of shit
for you to see
when a milkmaid smiles
Sweeney like the rest of us flies down
and when she pours the milk
into the hole her heel made in the cowdung
Sweeney like the rest of us kneels down and drinks
and dies on the horn the cowherd hid in it.
So before you have anything to do with women
remember Sweeney the bird of Ireland
lying on his back
in the middle of that path
in the moonlight.

IV.

And on my way home
                                  this morning
(my wife
             waiting)
my shadow
                 racing up the path ahead of me
I saw something
                        (a black stone?)
thrown 
          at the back of its head
ducked
            and spun around
so fast
          I almost fell down
-- it was a bird
                       flying into a tree

V.

No good could come out of this war
out of what burns in the heart of our highly disciplined
John Q. Killer as a whole village bursts into one flame--
the villagers streaming like tears towards the forest
cover his helicopter's blade blow the leaves off and
the flame towards . . .

as we sit in front of our bubbles watching our president
(whose bubbletalk no one can escape and he is a little bit
mad--calling the reporters in for an interview while he's
sitting on the bubble having a bubble movement) and first
lady climb into their big bubble bed and Lucy, born of
their own bubbles, crawls in between--
      *Mah daddy has so many troubles
        turning the world into a bubble*
and sick of crossfire--the cries of the women and
children flying over his head--he stumbled down to the
riverbank and found, the wreckage twisted around the tree
behind, his skull . . .

Noises, there are noises, noises that can of themselves drive
a man mad--NOISES!

but last night the Stockhausen penetrated from the four
sides of the auditorium, stripping each layer of feeling
and thought until all that was left was something the size
of a nut--so tiny, so hard, so impenetrable it was alone
in the middle of an infinite space . . .

--Harold Dull

fr. *Stony Brook 3/4*, 1969
and in *Open Poetry: Four Anthologies of Expanded Poems*
eds. Ronald Gross, George Quasha [New York: Simon & Schuster, 1973]

Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard







From paul.lake  Mon Dec 16 12:42:49 2002
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 11:42:49 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Obituary: Dee Brown
In-Reply-To: <5.1.1.6.0.20021215205218.01802820@mail.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <BA236CB8.3D00%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 12/15/02 8:53 PM, Gabriel Gudding at gmguddi at ilstu.edu wrote:

> 
>> 
>> http://www.accessatlanta.com/ajc/epaper/editions/saturday/metro_d3af5d0fb51e
>> 51a70071.html
>> 
>> LITTLE ROCK: Dee Brown, 94, author of 'Wounded Knee'
>> Associated Press
>> Saturday, December 14, 2002
>> 
>> Dee Brown, whose novel "Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee" helped bring
>> atrocities against Indians to the attention of an American public accustomed
>> to tales of heroic cowboys and savage natives, died Thursday of heart
>> disease. He was 94.
>> 
>> In that 1971 best seller, Mr. Brown used eyewitness accounts and quotations
>> from Indians who lived during the period.
>> 
>> Mr. Brown wrote 28 other books, all on a manual typewriter, examining the
>> history of the American West and decline of American Indian culture.
>> 
>> "Hear That Lonesome Whistle Blow: Railroads in the West," a history, turned
>> out to be an expose of the treacherous dealings of the railroad companies in
>> the development of the West.
>> 
>> -------------------------------------------
>> You are subscribed to engdep-l, the discussion list for the English
>> Department at Illinois State University.
>> To join or leave the list:  http://www.english.ilstu.edu/join.html
>> List archives: http://listserv.ilstu.edu/archives/engdep-l.html
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ---
> [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]
> 
> 
Thanks for posting this, Gabe. I met Dee Brown a few times here in Arkansas
and he was always charming and generous.  One of his books led me to further
research one Elizabeth Reed Murphy, who became the narrator of my longest
published poem, "Seeing the Elephant," so I owe him a personal debt. Sorry
to hear he's no longer with us.

Paul Lake

---
[This E-mail scanned for viruses by Declude Virus]




From mbyrne  Mon Dec 16 12:43:25 2002
From: mbyrne (Mairead Byrne)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 12:43:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Harold Dull, "Suibhne
	Gheilt"
Message-ID: <sdfdca8c.027@risd.edu>

Dear Hal,

It was a nice surprise to read a couple of Irish words and remember
their rasping, slapping sounds.  I could never see the attraction of
Sweeney for male poets though.  He never had anything to offer me, in my
world of war and poetry.  I've read the poem 3 times now, trying to find
contra-indications to its misogyny and assumption of an all-male
audience.  It seems a giant mess, which makes me almost like it, but not
quite. 

Mairead

>>> halvard at earthlink.net 12/16/02 11:57 AM >>>

Suibhne Gheilt

I.

He has haunted me now for over a year
that madman Suibhne Gheilt
who in the middle of a battle
looked up and saw something
that made him leap up and fly
over swords and trees
--a poet gifted above all others--

II.

How could a proud loud mouth
who yelled KILL KILL KILL
as he plowed down the enemy
--heads rolling off of his sword--
be so lifted up
(or fly up
as those below saw it
--wings beating)
be so suddenly gifted
with poetry
and nest so high
in Ireland's tall trees?
Is there a point
where all paths cross?
And why am I so drawn to him
that all my questions
seem shot in his direction?
     *And they ran into the woods
       and threw their lances
       and shot their arrows
       up through the branches*
What parallels could I ever hope to find--
my refusal to fight
(weaseling out on psychiatric grounds)?
my leaving my country behind?
my poetry?
     *and my wife wept
       on the path below . . .
       Oh memory is sweet
       but sweeter is the sorrel
       in the pool in the path below
       I fly down everynight
       to eat*

III.

Sweeney like the rest of us
would've been better off
if he had never had anything to do with women.
But the point of it lies hidden
in a pool of milk
in a pile of shit
for you to see
when a milkmaid smiles
Sweeney like the rest of us flies down
and when she pours the milk
into the hole her heel made in the cowdung
Sweeney like the rest of us kneels down and drinks
and dies on the horn the cowherd hid in it.
So before you have anything to do with women
remember Sweeney the bird of Ireland
lying on his back
in the middle of that path
in the moonlight.

IV.

And on my way home
                                  this morning
(my wife
             waiting)
my shadow
                 racing up the path ahead of me
I saw something
                        (a black stone?)
thrown 
          at the back of its head
ducked
            and spun around
so fast
          I almost fell down
-- it was a bird
                       flying into a tree

V.

No good could come out of this war
out of what burns in the heart of our highly disciplined
John Q. Killer as a whole village bursts into one flame--
the villagers streaming like tears towards the forest
cover his helicopter's blade blow the leaves off and
the flame towards . . .

as we sit in front of our bubbles watching our president
(whose bubbletalk no one can escape and he is a little bit
mad--calling the reporters in for an interview while he's
sitting on the bubble having a bubble movement) and first
lady climb into their big bubble bed and Lucy, born of
their own bubbles, crawls in between--
      *Mah daddy has so many troubles
        turning the world into a bubble*
and sick of crossfire--the cries of the women and
children flying over his head--he stumbled down to the
riverbank and found, the wreckage twisted around the tree
behind, his skull . . .

Noises, there are noises, noises that can of themselves drive
a man mad--NOISES!

but last night the Stockhausen penetrated from the four
sides of the auditorium, stripping each layer of feeling
and thought until all that was left was something the size
of a nut--so tiny, so hard, so impenetrable it was alone
in the middle of an infinite space . . .

--Harold Dull

fr. *Stony Brook 3/4*, 1969
and in *Open Poetry: Four Anthologies of Expanded Poems*
eds. Ronald Gross, George Quasha [New York: Simon & Schuster, 1973]

Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From JforJames  Mon Dec 16 14:29:03 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 14:29:03 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] BUDDHA'S TEMPLE moves to the Web
Message-ID: <146.545318f.2b2f837f@aol.com>

Subj:    BUDDHA'S TEMPLE moves to the Web at:  WWW.BUDDHASTEMPLE.COM
Date:   12/16/02 11:02:54 AM Eastern Standard Time
From:   PoetryLives.com/-d1ef7c7ac1-jforjames=aol.com at a.verticalresponse.com 
(PoetryLives.com/HaikuHut.com)
To: jforjames at aol.com

 Haiku Poetry Lover!

For a number of reasons we are moving Buddha's Temple from print to the
Web, and will be putting out new issues quarterly. Also, we will be
published by HaikuHut.Com going forward. Our next issue will be in
January, and we are now accepting Submissions, via our SUBMISSIONS button
on the website, for the March 1, 2003 issue. 

We have some exciting announcements for the new year, and hope to be part
of several haiku contests, and a print anthology published by HaikuHut
early next year. This should represent a real improvement over the past
and much larger audience for our poets.

We have a wonderful selection of poems in this issue, and are looking
forward to providing you with superior reading, as well as a wonderful
place to display your work. Click the LOGO ABOVE to reach the new website:
 WWW.BUDDHASTEMPLE.COM!

***************************************************************************

We want to thank you for supporting our efforts in the past, and want to
assure you that we intend to maintain the quality of the work as we have
in the past. Thanks and enjoy your holiday!


Sincerely

The Editors:
Lewis Sanders
Doris Pearson

***************************************************************************

You are receiving this e-mail because you requested to receive info and
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From halvard  Mon Dec 16 16:57:07 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 16:57:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Harold Dull, "Suibhne Gheilt"
In-Reply-To: <sdfdca8c.027@risd.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIECMGAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Thanks for the response, Mairead. I'm glad you
"almost like it."

Hal     "metaphor--I use them. They keep me regular."
                         --Paul Violi

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
   
{    Dear Hal,
{    
{    It was a nice surprise to read a couple of Irish words and remember
{    their rasping, slapping sounds.  I could never see the attraction of
{    Sweeney for male poets though.  He never had anything to offer me, in my
{    world of war and poetry.  I've read the poem 3 times now, trying to find
{    contra-indications to its misogyny and assumption of an all-male
{    audience.  It seems a giant mess, which makes me almost like it, but not
{    quite. 
{    
{    Mairead




From mbyrne  Mon Dec 16 17:11:44 2002
From: mbyrne (Mairead Byrne)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 17:11:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Harold Dull, "Suibhne
	Gheilt"
Message-ID: <sdfe0972.033@risd.edu>

I like Paul Violi better!
Mairead

>>> halvard at earthlink.net 12/16/02 17:03 PM >>>

Thanks for the response, Mairead. I'm glad you
"almost like it."

Hal     "metaphor--I use them. They keep me regular."
                         --Paul Violi

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
   
{    Dear Hal,
{    
{    It was a nice surprise to read a couple of Irish words and remember
{    their rasping, slapping sounds.  I could never see the attraction of
{    Sweeney for male poets though.  He never had anything to offer me, in my
{    world of war and poetry.  I've read the poem 3 times now, trying to find
{    contra-indications to its misogyny and assumption of an all-male
{    audience.  It seems a giant mess, which makes me almost like it, but not
{    quite. 
{    
{    Mairead

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From halvard  Mon Dec 16 17:29:12 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 17:29:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Harold Dull, "SuibhneGheilt"
In-Reply-To: <sdfe0972.033@risd.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIECOGAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

"Like," "not like," "almost like"--I'm glad I'm not a critic
having to make such fine distinctions.

Hal           "We don't serve fine wine in half-pints, buddy."
                                  --Robert Ashley

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard

{    I like Paul Violi better!
{    Mairead
{    
{    >>> halvard at earthlink.net 12/16/02 17:03 PM >>>
{    
{    Thanks for the response, Mairead. I'm glad you
{    "almost like it."
{    
{    Hal     "metaphor--I use them. They keep me regular."
{                             --Paul Violi
{    
{    Halvard Johnson
{    ===============
{    email: halvard at earthlink.net
{    website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
{       
{    {    Dear Hal,
{    {    
{    {    It was a nice surprise to read a couple of Irish words and remember
{    {    their rasping, slapping sounds.  I could never see the attraction of
{    {    Sweeney for male poets though.  He never had anything to offer me, in my
{    {    world of war and poetry.  I've read the poem 3 times now, trying to find
{    {    contra-indications to its misogyny and assumption of an all-male
{    {    audience.  It seems a giant mess, which makes me almost like it, but not
{    {    quite. 
{    {    
{    {    Mairead
{    
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From simon  Mon Dec 16 17:52:45 2002
From: simon (Beth Simon)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 17:52:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Harold Dull, "SuibhneGheilt"
Message-ID: <sdfe130a.044@gw.ipfw.edu>

For those (for me!) coming in late from exam writing, final critique giving, etc., would you repost the poem, which, I admit, I wouldn't have asked for were it not for maired

beth


{    {    Dear Hal,
{    {    
{    {    It was a nice surprise to read a couple of Irish words and remember
{    {    their rasping, slapping sounds.  I could never see the attraction of
{    {    Sweeney for male poets though.  He never had anything to offer me, in my
{    {    world of war and poetry.  I've read the poem 3 times now, trying to find
{    {    contra-indications to its misogyny and assumption of an all-male
{    {    audience.  It seems a giant mess, which makes me almost like it, but not
{    {    quite. 
{    {    
{    {    Mairead




From halvard  Mon Dec 16 18:33:41 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 18:33:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Harold Dull, "Suibhne Gheilt"
In-Reply-To: <sdfe130a.044@gw.ipfw.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEDAGAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

   
{    For those (for me!) coming in late from exam writing, final critique giving, etc., would you repost the poem, which, I 
{    admit, I wouldn't have asked for were it not for maired
{    
{    beth

Here tis, Beth.

HJ

==============

Suibhne Gheilt

I.

He has haunted me now for over a year
that madman Suibhne Gheilt
who in the middle of a battle
looked up and saw something
that made him leap up and fly
over swords and trees
--a poet gifted above all others--

II.

How could a proud loud mouth
who yelled KILL KILL KILL
as he plowed down the enemy
--heads rolling off of his sword--
be so lifted up
(or fly up
as those below saw it
--wings beating)
be so suddenly gifted
with poetry
and nest so high
in Ireland's tall trees?
Is there a point
where all paths cross?
And why am I so drawn to him
that all my questions
seem shot in his direction?
     *And they ran into the woods
       and threw their lances
       and shot their arrows
       up through the branches*
What parallels could I ever hope to find--
my refusal to fight
(weaseling out on psychiatric grounds)?
my leaving my country behind?
my poetry?
     *and my wife wept
       on the path below . . .
       Oh memory is sweet
       but sweeter is the sorrel
       in the pool in the path below
       I fly down everynight
       to eat*

III.

Sweeney like the rest of us
would've been better off
if he had never had anything to do with women.
But the point of it lies hidden
in a pool of milk
in a pile of shit
for you to see
when a milkmaid smiles
Sweeney like the rest of us flies down
and when she pours the milk
into the hole her heel made in the cowdung
Sweeney like the rest of us kneels down and drinks
and dies on the horn the cowherd hid in it.
So before you have anything to do with women
remember Sweeney the bird of Ireland
lying on his back
in the middle of that path
in the moonlight.

IV.

And on my way home
                                  this morning
(my wife
             waiting)
my shadow
                 racing up the path ahead of me
I saw something
                        (a black stone?)
thrown 
          at the back of its head
ducked
            and spun around
so fast
          I almost fell down
-- it was a bird
                       flying into a tree

V.

No good could come out of this war
out of what burns in the heart of our highly disciplined
John Q. Killer as a whole village bursts into one flame--
the villagers streaming like tears towards the forest
cover his helicopter's blade blow the leaves off and
the flame towards . . .

as we sit in front of our bubbles watching our president
(whose bubbletalk no one can escape and he is a little bit
mad--calling the reporters in for an interview while he's
sitting on the bubble having a bubble movement) and first
lady climb into their big bubble bed and Lucy, born of
their own bubbles, crawls in between--
      *Mah daddy has so many troubles
        turning the world into a bubble*
and sick of crossfire--the cries of the women and
children flying over his head--he stumbled down to the
riverbank and found, the wreckage twisted around the tree
behind, his skull . . .

Noises, there are noises, noises that can of themselves drive
a man mad--NOISES!

but last night the Stockhausen penetrated from the four
sides of the auditorium, stripping each layer of feeling
and thought until all that was left was something the size
of a nut--so tiny, so hard, so impenetrable it was alone
in the middle of an infinite space . . .

--Harold Dull

fr. *Stony Brook 3/4*, 1969
and in *Open Poetry: Four Anthologies of Expanded Poems*
eds. Ronald Gross, George Quasha [New York: Simon & Schuster, 1973]

Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From halvard  Tue Dec 17 10:43:20 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 10:43:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: William Bronk, "The Strong Room of the House"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEDMGAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

The Strong Room of the House

We can go by that door a dozen times
in a day and do that for years, maybe, without
thinking what's in there, paying it any heed
or needing to: why look in?
It's as much as though the room weren't part of the house
though we know, of course, it is; we think of it
in passing and dismiss the thought. Other times,
prompted perhaps by some occurrence, we pause
to consider whether it might be better to sort
things over there. Maybe throw some out.

Aren't we the strong ones, though, aren't we here
as masters of the house! We are, indeed, until
one day we come by the door or where the door was one
and the door is gone. In the fetidness of the air,
we can barely breathe. Something nourishes,
as a plant might, in the dirt of the floor, grows
in the light from the window or in the dark of night.
Horror is what it is called. It is the whole
strength of the house, will be there when we move out,
hang deep in the cellar-hole when the house is gone.

--William Bronk

fr. *Life Supports*
[North Point, 1981]

in *American Poetry since 1950: Innovators & Otsiders*
ed. Eliot Weinberger [New York: Marsilio, 1993]


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard





From Henry_Gould  Tue Dec 17 11:10:13 2002
From: Henry_Gould (Henry Gould)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 11:10:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] writerdom, cont.
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021217104200.00aaa120@postoffice.brown.edu>

Excuse me while I maunder on a bit more on this eccentric orbit.

I come back to the absurd idea that poetry and the poet represent a mis-fit 
with culture at large.  Why?  Because of the presence of something absolute 
in poetry, the representation of unmediated originality.

I suppose this is a kind of myth (or poetic license).

But because of this persistent myth, there is a problem within the two main 
social habitats or support systems for poetry: firstly, in academia, the 
arrangement whereby poets are treated as professors; secondly, in the 
literary subcultures, the arrangement whereby poets are welcomed or not 
welcomed as members of a collegial group.

Treating poets as professors elides the problem that poets, unlike 
professors, have no binding or legitimized professional relationship with 
the general public, the way the professoriate does.  The only relationship 
between a poet and society at large is that created as an after-effect of 
publication and reception.  Professors are granted a particular license, to 
research, to write, to teach - whether or not their work is immediately 
popular, useful, or even socially "acceptable".  This is the sphere of 
academic freedom, carved out through many struggles over the centuries, a 
sphere of socially-accepted rights.  The poet - being him- or herself 
dependent on the unpredictable, absolute spontaneity of artistic creation, 
has no such legitimacy, and in some cases intentionally avoids the offer of 
it, since first of all it assumes the predictability of inspiration, and it 
attempts to jump-start, in a methodical way, the after-effects of reception.

Treating poets as members of a club, on the other hand, creates the problem 
I alluded to in my first post on this thread:  that poets become enamored 
and possessed by the "social whirl" of poetry, rather than the creative 
process itself.  The social dynamics slowly but surely undermine the 
autonomy of the poetic process, and critical thought in 
general:  independence and objectivity are no longer elements of a process 
of free thought.

Raising the spectre of these contradictions is not meant as an attack on 
individual poets struggling to give space and purpose to their vocation.  I 
understand that my dichotomies here are abstractions, and that there is 
room in our culture for various kinds of creative coping in order to 
nurture the integrity of one's own unique inspiration and talent.  But I 
wonder whether there is not a category or dimension of absolute writerdom, 
the pure spontaneous literary, which is the real end or goal of poetic 
making; and if somehow this dimension ultimately sets the standard - from 
outside the "system" - for what poets are doing.  This is I think what I 
was trying to get at in my distinction between "writers" and "clubbable 
poets".  If such a dimension exists, how does it affect our own creative or 
critical activities?

Henry

Henry




From Henry_Gould  Tue Dec 17 11:28:56 2002
From: Henry_Gould (Henry Gould)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 11:28:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] writerdom, cont. cont.
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021217112512.00aac440@postoffice.brown.edu>

Postscript:  on this idea of an absolute outside the system:  think of the 
analogy of chess.  The key to the system is the performance, the winning of 
the game.  Despite all the factors of training, ambition, luck, 
collegiality, mentorship, etc. etc. - all of which provide the environment 
for the winning of games - still, all these factors subtend from raw 
talent, innate ability, whose objective measure is the winning of 
games.  In poetry, what is the objective measure?   The only measure is the 
literary absolute.

Henry




From jvcervantes  Tue Dec 17 13:05:37 2002
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 11:05:37 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] writerdom, cont.
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20021217104200.00aaa120@postoffice.brown.edu>
Message-ID: <3DFF6771.213B8ED1@earthlink.net>

Your eccentric orbit sent me off on a tangent, to wit:

You are not that Henry Gould in the lineage of unknown and unknown begat
unknown, who married unknown, son or daughter of unknown, and begat
unknown, joining eventually unknown of unknown and unknown, decendents
of unknown and unknown, from which marriage the named Henry Gould
issued, 1785, in Bruham, Somerset, England.  Nor William Henry Gould,
connected somehow to family of David Leon Hovis and Madison Lindsey
Hovis, whose issue it seems is Pam Adams, indexed as "this person is
presumed living."  Though closer perhaps to Henry Gould, William Gould,
Daniel Gould, David Gould, Jonathon Gould, Polly Gould, and  Lydia
Gould, all children born to Henry Gould and Mary Stearns between 1774 -
1796.  There are more, such as Helena Lavaua Augenbaugh, three
generations removed from Clyde Henry Gould of Pennsylvania or Virginia. 
But you wrote "My daughter is writing a paper for school on Emily
Dickinson. The white bride/in the Amherst attic . . ."  You should look
up Henry Gould, born 7 August 1837 on Gooseberry Island, Baffin Bay, who
is of the club and objectively Henry Gould.   

- Jim (I should be grading papers)

Henry Gould wrote:
> 
> Excuse me while I maunder on a bit more on this eccentric orbit.
> 
> I come back to the absurd idea that poetry and the poet represent a mis-fit
> with culture at large.  Why?  Because of the presence of something absolute
> in poetry, the representation of unmediated originality.
> 
> I suppose this is a kind of myth (or poetic license).
> 
> But because of this persistent myth, there is a problem within the two main
> social habitats or support systems for poetry: firstly, in academia, the
> arrangement whereby poets are treated as professors; secondly, in the
> literary subcultures, the arrangement whereby poets are welcomed or not
> welcomed as members of a collegial group.
> 
> Treating poets as professors elides the problem that poets, unlike
> professors, have no binding or legitimized professional relationship with
> the general public, the way the professoriate does.  The only relationship
> between a poet and society at large is that created as an after-effect of
> publication and reception.  Professors are granted a particular license, to
> research, to write, to teach - whether or not their work is immediately
> popular, useful, or even socially "acceptable".  This is the sphere of
> academic freedom, carved out through many struggles over the centuries, a
> sphere of socially-accepted rights.  The poet - being him- or herself
> dependent on the unpredictable, absolute spontaneity of artistic creation,
> has no such legitimacy, and in some cases intentionally avoids the offer of
> it, since first of all it assumes the predictability of inspiration, and it
> attempts to jump-start, in a methodical way, the after-effects of reception.
> 
> Treating poets as members of a club, on the other hand, creates the problem
> I alluded to in my first post on this thread:  that poets become enamored
> and possessed by the "social whirl" of poetry, rather than the creative
> process itself.  The social dynamics slowly but surely undermine the
> autonomy of the poetic process, and critical thought in
> general:  independence and objectivity are no longer elements of a process
> of free thought.
> 
> Raising the spectre of these contradictions is not meant as an attack on
> individual poets struggling to give space and purpose to their vocation.  I
> understand that my dichotomies here are abstractions, and that there is
> room in our culture for various kinds of creative coping in order to
> nurture the integrity of one's own unique inspiration and talent.  But I
> wonder whether there is not a category or dimension of absolute writerdom,
> the pure spontaneous literary, which is the real end or goal of poetic
> making; and if somehow this dimension ultimately sets the standard - from
> outside the "system" - for what poets are doing.  This is I think what I
> was trying to get at in my distinction between "writers" and "clubbable
> poets".  If such a dimension exists, how does it affect our own creative or
> critical activities?
> 
> Henry
> 
> Henry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From Henry_Gould  Tue Dec 17 13:10:32 2002
From: Henry_Gould (Henry Gould)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 13:10:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: writerdom
In-Reply-To: <20021217170101.DC8DF101C8@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021217130038.00aa9990@postoffice.brown.edu>

A corollary of this train of thought would be that the goal for the 
representatives of "official" literary professions would be a contradictory 
one:  to divest poetry-biz of all the trappings of an academic literary 
guild; to create a cultural climate in which professional people (teachers, 
lawyers, journalists, doctors, and so on) as well as non-professionals - 
educated people in general - would ALSO read and write poetry (in a 
situation perhaps more like the Renaissance than is the case now) 
(Montale's idea of "dilettantism") - and whose poetry would be just as 
capable of finding an audience as that produced in the academic circuit.

Henry

>Postscript:  on this idea of an absolute outside the system:  think of the
>analogy of chess.  The key to the system is the performance, the winning of
>the game.  Despite all the factors of training, ambition, luck,
>collegiality, mentorship, etc. etc. - all of which provide the environment
>for the winning of games - still, all these factors subtend from raw
>talent, innate ability, whose objective measure is the winning of
>games.  In poetry, what is the objective measure?   The only measure is the
>literary absolute.





From Henry_Gould  Tue Dec 17 13:24:39 2002
From: Henry_Gould (Henry Gould)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 13:24:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: writerdom, cont.
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021217132054.00aad100@postoffice.brown.edu>

Jim, you're starting to see what a large and influential club is the club 
of Henry Gould (a pretty common name); you've only scratched the 
surface.  We're a highly organized interest group, of which I, it pleaseth 
me to say, am interim (lifetime) president.

Henry (Hale) Gould




From grahamd  Tue Dec 17 13:38:53 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 12:38:53 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nation Afraid To Admit
Message-ID: <200212171838.gBHIch7R095408@mx11.mx.voyager.net>



From CobbCoStudioArts  Tue Dec 17 13:49:27 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 10:49:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] writerdom, cont. cont.
Message-ID: <20021217184927.DD8854559@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From jvcervantes  Tue Dec 17 14:25:41 2002
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 12:25:41 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: writerdom, cont.
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20021217132054.00aad100@postoffice.brown.edu>
Message-ID: <3DFF7A34.861CBADD@earthlink.net>

Actually, I was trying to address the questions you've raised in these
posts.  The found prose poem originated out of a pure childish curiosity
initiated by Googling your name.  It got really interesting three and
four pages into the results where there were wild associations and
coincidences that begged to be taken out of context and written down.
Thus, the poem is an absolute of unmediated originality in one respect. 
It is, however, also deserving of the label of clubby poetics because of
the social whirl of Goulds cavorting across the ages.  Yet, it was all
done in the spirit of unfettered play.  It was impossible not to play
with an idea beginning with a progeny suddenly named "Henry Gould" after
generations of "unknowns" - found in the 3rd page of links, if I
remember correctly.  Documentation was the last thing I was thinking of.

- Jim

Henry Gould wrote:
> 
> Jim, you're starting to see what a large and influential club is the club
> of Henry Gould (a pretty common name); you've only scratched the
> surface.  We're a highly organized interest group, of which I, it pleaseth
> me to say, am interim (lifetime) president.
> 
> Henry (Hale) Gould
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From CobbCoStudioArts  Tue Dec 17 14:33:58 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 11:33:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: writerdom
Message-ID: <20021217193358.55BDF4894@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From Henry_Gould  Tue Dec 17 15:04:28 2002
From: Henry_Gould (Henry Gould)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 15:04:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: writerdom
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021217145644.00aa7a90@postoffice.brown.edu>

Bob,

regarding the literary absolute - I'm using this phrase only as a sort of 
pointer toward the unquantifiable, unpredictable, groundbreaking, 
unrepeatable originality of the genuine new work.  Rather than underlining 
its measurability, I think of "absolute" as a goad toward a criticism that 
would strive to be equally independent, free from extraneous "club" influences.

Henry




From JforJames  Tue Dec 17 15:33:48 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 15:33:48 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nation Afraid To Admit
Message-ID: <15.4ec73eb.2b30e42c@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/17/02 1:39:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes:

> 
>  NATION AFRAID TO ADMIT 9 YEAR OLD DISABLED POET REALLY BAD
>  
>  LYNDONVILLE, VT?Afflicted from birth with a rare degenerative disease,
>  wheelchair-bound Luke Petrowski has confronted his illness by penning
>  heartfelt verse that touches on elements vital to our lives: love,
>  spirituality, courage, grace, and hope.
>  
>  Above: Luke Petrowski, whose Hopeweavings (left) books have sold more than
>  22 million copies.

David, it's clearly time for a slap-down poetry slam between Luke
and his Hopeweavings versus Maryland's own Mattie J. T. Stepanek
http://www.hyperionbooks.com/books/2002spring/celebratethroughheartsongs.htm
and his Heartsongs. The winner to be determined by 
liquid measure: the tears collected from the cheeks of the
judges.
Finnegan



From grahamd  Tue Dec 17 15:47:53 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 14:47:53 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nation Afraid To Admit
Message-ID: <200212172047.gBHKlhMb023902@mx0.mx.voyager.net>

And here's an actual poem by one of America's best selling poets:

For Mr. Thompson

The people who like poetry are special.
They are the same people who hear
Lullabies and wind chimes
When the birds are noisy together.
They are the ones who see
Star-gifts in every season--
Tree-stars in the fall,
Snow-stars in the winter,
Dandelion-fairy-stars in the spring, and
Lightning-bug-stars in the summer.
They are the ones who have
Favorite colors that are wonderful gifts
Like sunset or rainbow or treasure.
They are the ones who have
Songs in their heart and
Words in their minds that
Come together and slip out
Into the air or onto paper as a gift
To someone else, or even themselves.
The people who like poetry are probably
The ones who really like life,
And who know how to celebrate
Even when things are sad or happy.
We remember that sometimes,
Even if we don't understand why,
That the rain falls for a reason.
We remember how important it is
To play after a storm, just because
We need to keep playing and living.
And, we are the people who remember
To say thank You to God for our gifts.


--from *Journey Through Heartsongs* by Mattie J.T. Stepanek
VSP Books, Alexandria, VA 2001 
========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================


----------
>From: JforJames at aol.com
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Nation Afraid To Admit
>Date: Tue, Dec 17, 2002, 2:33 PM
>

>In a message dated 12/17/02 1:39:39 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
>grahamd at ripon.edu writes:
>
>> 
>>  NATION AFRAID TO ADMIT 9 YEAR OLD DISABLED POET REALLY BAD
>>  
>>  LYNDONVILLE, VT?fflicted from birth with a rare degenerative disease,
>>  wheelchair-bound Luke Petrowski has confronted his illness by penning
>>  heartfelt verse that touches on elements vital to our lives: love,
>>  spirituality, courage, grace, and hope.
>>  
>>  Above: Luke Petrowski, whose Hopeweavings (left) books have sold more than
>>  22 million copies.
>
>David, it's clearly time for a slap-down poetry slam between Luke
>and his Hopeweavings versus Maryland's own Mattie J. T. Stepanek
>http://www.hyperionbooks.com/books/2002spring/celebratethroughheartsongs.htm
>and his Heartsongs. The winner to be determined by 
>liquid measure: the tears collected from the cheeks of the
>judges.
>Finnegan



From CobbCoStudioArts  Tue Dec 17 16:23:05 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 13:23:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: writerdom
Message-ID: <20021217212305.CBA394457@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From roger  Mon Dec 16 23:24:03 2002
From: roger (Roger Greenwald)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 23:24:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] North in the World: Selected Poems of Rolf Jacobsen
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.1.20021216232320.00ab1360@pop.chass.utoronto.ca>

Dear Friends, Colleagues, Readers,


I hope you won't mind a brief reminder that

* NORTH IN THE WORLD: SELECTED POEMS OF ROLF JACOBSEN *

would make a very nice gift for anyone who
reads poetry. I've yet to encounter a reader who doesn't
love Jacobsen's poems; and the University of Chicago Press
has produced a beautiful bilingual edition.

I have recently posted some reviews on the following
web page, where there is also a link to three sample poems:

http://www.chass.utoronto.ca/~roger/niwrevus.html

If you're not yet familiar with this book, please try to find
a few minutes to look into it.

You can order the book at any bookstore or from an online
bookseller.

Best wishes for the holidays and the New Year,

Roger G.





From marcus  Wed Dec 18 07:38:59 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 07:38:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] writerdom, cont. cont.
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021217112512.00aac440@postoffice.brown.edu>
Message-ID: <3E002613.8329.66D9A2@localhost>

Henry Gould wrote:
> Postscript:  on this idea of an absolute outside the system:  think of the 
> analogy of chess.  The key to the system is the performance, the winning of 
> the game.  Despite all the factors of training, ambition, luck, 
> collegiality, mentorship, etc. etc. - all of which provide the environment 
> for the winning of games - still, all these factors subtend from raw 
> talent, innate ability, whose objective measure is the winning of 
> games.  In poetry, what is the objective measure?   The only measure is the 
> literary absolute.

But Henry -- what counts as "winning the game" in poetry?  What is 
that "literary absolute"?  It looks to me as if any such absolute in 
an open-ended system such as poetry is bound to be a result of 
collegial consensus over long periods of time -- clubbability, in 
short -- and not any objective measure such as "winning the game" 
(unless, of course, you hold that winning the game is achieving 
clubbability).


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From Henry_Gould  Wed Dec 18 08:18:01 2002
From: Henry_Gould (Henry Gould)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 08:18:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1159 - 13 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20021218122802.8EF7B101C5@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021218081641.00ab1430@postoffice.brown.edu>

Bob, I meant "goad", as in Henry Goad.  I'll think about Marcus' question 
before answering.

Henry



>Henry,
>
>Did you mean a "goal" rather than a "goad," either one works for me.
>
>Thanks for the clarification.
>
>Bob





From luap  Wed Dec 18 09:35:31 2002
From: luap (K. Paul Mallasch)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 09:35:31 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] writerdom, cont. cont.
In-Reply-To: <3E002613.8329.66D9A2@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10212180933500.19969-100000@sauron.spinweb.net>

Hope you don't mind me budding in.

It's interesting to see how the end game in poetry has changed over the
ages. The travelling oral bard is a far cry from the sheltered academic
poet of today.

As a poet, I feel it is my duty to bring poetry back to the people -
trouble is, most people would rather watch TV than share insight with a
poet.

I'm trying to change this, though, through my website. I feel the Internet
has the ability to help bring poetry back to the people.

-kpaul
mallasch.com/mug/

On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, Marcus Bales wrote:

> Henry Gould wrote:
> > Postscript:  on this idea of an absolute outside the system:  think of the 
> > analogy of chess.  The key to the system is the performance, the winning of 
> > the game.  Despite all the factors of training, ambition, luck, 
> > collegiality, mentorship, etc. etc. - all of which provide the environment 
> > for the winning of games - still, all these factors subtend from raw 
> > talent, innate ability, whose objective measure is the winning of 
> > games.  In poetry, what is the objective measure?   The only measure is the 
> > literary absolute.
> 
> But Henry -- what counts as "winning the game" in poetry?  What is 
> that "literary absolute"?  It looks to me as if any such absolute in 
> an open-ended system such as poetry is bound to be a result of 
> collegial consensus over long periods of time -- clubbability, in 
> short -- and not any objective measure such as "winning the game" 
> (unless, of course, you hold that winning the game is achieving 
> clubbability).
> 
> 
> Marcus Bales
> 
> marcus at designerglass.com
> http://www.designerglass.com
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From DICK  Wed Dec 18 10:01:04 2002
From: DICK (DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 02 10:01:04 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] awful poem?
Message-ID: <200212181510.gBIFARZs023058@westrelay01.boulder.ibm.com>

Seems to me I've seen much worse posted right here,
awarded prestigious prizes, published in a "little"
magazine suddenly obscenely endowed, gushed over by
exalted academics.

If this was really written by a 9 year-old, he's quite
precocious, for perfection of syntax, consistency of
imagery, and fluency.  I'd almost suspect a ringer.

Richard
>>
>>For Mr. Thompson
>>
>>The people who like poetry are special.
>>They are the same people who hear
>>Lullabies and wind chimes
>>When the birds are noisy together.
>>They are the ones who see
>>Star-gifts in every season--
>>Tree-stars in the fall,
>>Snow-stars in the winter,
>>Dandelion-fairy-stars in the spring, and
>>Lightning-bug-stars in the summer.
>>They are the ones who have
>>Favorite colors that are wonderful gifts
>>Like sunset or rainbow or treasure.
>>They are the ones who have
>>Songs in their heart and
>>Words in their minds that
>>Come together and slip out
>>Into the air or onto paper as a gift
>>To someone else, or even themselves.
>>The people who like poetry are probably
>>The ones who really like life,
>>And who know how to celebrate
>>Even when things are sad or happy.
>>We remember that sometimes,
>>Even if we don't understand why,
>>That the rain falls for a reason.
>>We remember how important it is
>>To play after a storm, just because
>>We need to keep playing and living.
>>And, we are the people who remember
>>To say thank You to God for our gifts.
>>
>>
>>--from *Journey Through Heartsongs* by Mattie J.T. Stepanek



From halvard  Wed Dec 18 10:21:48 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 10:21:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Harold Dicker, "The Prize of War is Always"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEFFGAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

The Prize of War is Always

that war     is an emotional release
			it is an established fact
     many murders         come in their pants
that     the cannibals are coming
     a cannibal is someone
			that eats someone else
many murderers     are coming
			it is an established fact
     murder     is an emotional cannibal
that eats someone else
			murder     is an established fact
     that war     is an emotional release
war     is always many murderers
			the prize     is always coming
that war     is someone else     who eats someone else
     war is always     someone else
			murder     is come
the prize     of emotional release
			is an established cannibal
     someone     that eats someone else
that     the cannibals are coming
			it is an established fact
     the cannibals are coming
			is an emotional release     that


--Harold Dicker

fr. *Stony Brook 3/4*, 1969
and in *Open Poetry: Four Anthologies of Expanded Poems*
eds. Ronald Gross, George Quasha [New York: Simon & Schuster, 1973]

Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard





From Henry_Gould  Wed Dec 18 10:43:17 2002
From: Henry_Gould (Henry Gould)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 10:43:17 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: writerdom, cont.
In-Reply-To: <20021218122802.8EF7B101C5@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021218101145.00aae510@postoffice.brown.edu>

Marcus:
well, with the usual proviso [Poetry is Many Things to Many People]:

I think that poetry, not individual poets, wins the game.  And how does it 
do that?  By being what it is, essentially (in my view anyway):  the means 
by which we express the clearest thoughts and deepest feelings we 
have.  Such thoughts & feelings are also expressed in prose and everyday 
speech, of course:  but poets have a gift, analogous to musical talent, for 
setting thoughts & feelings in their most effective light (ie. _King Lear_, 
or example of your choice).

So we have this presence of a thing called poetry in a given culture.  It 
imposes its value by the traits it bears - cultures need this kind of 
speech.  And if you believe this presence amounts to more than providing 
baubles for mandarin elites or subcultures of enthusiasts, then 
"collegiality" is defined by a kind of permeation of the literary 
sensibility of the culture at large.  The literary absolute would be 
exemplified by the most effective expression of those thoughts and 
feelings; its reception would not be limited to specialists (granting, at 
the same time, the key role of specialists in preserving and evaluating the 
marginal, the difficult, the undiscovered).

If these points are valid, then the concept of the literary absolute, 
however you want to name it, should be considered a factor more essential 
than the promotional activity of either academic poetry circuits or 
subcultural groupings.  The absolute itself, not the game-players of any 
party, wins the game.  Circular logic is just as important in this field as 
it is in law (see Louis Menand's magnificent book, "The Metaphysical Club").

Henry


>Marcus wrote:
>But Henry -- what counts as "winning the game" in poetry?  What is
>that "literary absolute"?  It looks to me as if any such absolute in
>an open-ended system such as poetry is bound to be a result of
>collegial consensus over long periods of time -- clubbability, in
>short -- and not any objective measure such as "winning the game"
>(unless, of course, you hold that winning the game is achieving
>clubbability).





From grahamd  Wed Dec 18 10:47:58 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 09:47:58 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:writerdom, cont. cont.
Message-ID: <200212181547.gBIFlo92060525@mx6.mx.voyager.net>

>From: "K. Paul Mallasch" <luap at mallasch.com>

>Hope you don't mind me budding in.

Not at all, K. Paul.  Butt in all you want.  Sometimes we chase our tails a
bit around here.  I'm curious, though, as to where you're coming from. 
Speaking as a sheltered academic poet, I do wonder what exactly you suppose
I am sheltered *from*?  

And perhaps more to the point, what contemporary poets do you like?  Any
travelling oral bards out there that we ought to know about?  I just
finished teaching a class in oral poetry, and my students seemed to enjoy
poets like Saul Williams, Ava Chin, Taylor Mali, and Mariahadessa Ekere
Tallie a lot.  If they're not oral bards, I don't know who is. . . .

David Graham


>
>It's interesting to see how the end game in poetry has changed over the
>ages. The travelling oral bard is a far cry from the sheltered academic
>poet of today.
>
>As a poet, I feel it is my duty to bring poetry back to the people -
>trouble is, most people would rather watch TV than share insight with a
>poet.
>


========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================



From halvard  Wed Dec 18 11:40:42 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 11:40:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Harold Dicker, "The Prize of War is Always"
Message-ID: <000201c2a6b4$34aa5f20$46d2d23f@computer>

Apologies for the typo in line 3. I'm not responsible.
Of course. Here's a typo-free version. 

Hal         Not responsible for typographical errors.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard


The Prize of War is Always

that war     is an emotional release
			it is an established fact
     many murderers      come in their pants
that     the cannibals are coming
     a cannibal is someone
			that eats someone else
many murderers     are coming
			it is an established fact
     murder     is an emotional cannibal
that eats someone else
			murder     is an established fact
     that war     is an emotional release
war     is always many murderers
			the prize     is always coming
that war     is someone else     who eats someone else
     war is always     someone else
			murder     is come
the prize     of emotional release
			is an established cannibal
     someone     that eats someone else
that     the cannibals are coming
			it is an established fact
     the cannibals are coming
			is an emotional release     that


--Harold Dicker

fr. *Stony Brook 3/4*, 1969
and in *Open Poetry: Four Anthologies of Expanded Poems*
eds. Ronald Gross, George Quasha [New York: Simon & Schuster, 1973]

Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard





From luap  Wed Dec 18 11:41:08 2002
From: luap (K. Paul Mallasch)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 11:41:08 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:writerdom, cont. cont.
In-Reply-To: <200212181547.gBIFlo92060525@mx6.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10212181131260.21142-100000@sauron.spinweb.net>

I didn't mean it as a put-down, rather an observation. I believe there's a
gap/chasm between the poet and the reader - (both integral to one another)
- a gap that has grown larger and larger since we as a race began writing
things down. With this widening gap, a lot of times we have poets writing
specifically for other poets.

Re: contemporary poets - I'll be honest. I haven't read much
'mainstream'/contemporary poetry since leaving academia last year. I've
been reading unknowns who might be known in a hundred years or maybe they'll
never be known in a big way.

I'll be sure to check out some of the names you've given, though. 

I guess by the oral poetry thing I meant to speak more about the audience
- the reader - of poetry moreso than the form it's delivered in. Before
the written word the poems were delivered mostly to people who were not
poets themselves, were written for a general audience to enjoy.

Now, though, I think some (most?) poets target an audience other than the
common man - target the poetry over the heads of most average folk. And
that's a shame because if the world ever needed a good poet now is the
time.

Chasing my own 'tale' as well,
kpaul
mallasch.com/mug/

On Wed, 18 Dec 2002, David Graham wrote:

> 
> >From: "K. Paul Mallasch" <luap at mallasch.com>
> 
> >Hope you don't mind me budding in.
> 
> Not at all, K. Paul.  Butt in all you want.  Sometimes we chase our tails a
> bit around here.  I'm curious, though, as to where you're coming from. 
> Speaking as a sheltered academic poet, I do wonder what exactly you suppose
> I am sheltered *from*?  
> 
> And perhaps more to the point, what contemporary poets do you like?  Any
> travelling oral bards out there that we ought to know about?  I just
> finished teaching a class in oral poetry, and my students seemed to enjoy
> poets like Saul Williams, Ava Chin, Taylor Mali, and Mariahadessa Ekere
> Tallie a lot.  If they're not oral bards, I don't know who is. . . .
> 
> David Graham
> 
> 
> >
> >It's interesting to see how the end game in poetry has changed over the
> >ages. The travelling oral bard is a far cry from the sheltered academic
> >poet of today.
> >
> >As a poet, I feel it is my duty to bring poetry back to the people -
> >trouble is, most people would rather watch TV than share insight with a
> >poet.
> >
> 
> 
> ========================================
> David Graham
> Professor of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>    Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>    Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> 
>    Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> =======================================
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From barry.spacks  Wed Dec 18 12:05:16 2002
From: barry.spacks (Barry Spacks)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 09:05:16 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pertinent Gouldiana continued
In-Reply-To: <20021218122802.A854E101C6@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021218085445.00a03c50@incoming.verizon.net>

At 07:28 AM 12/18/02 -0500, Jim wrote (of Henry the Gould):

>you wrote "My daughter is writing a paper for school on Emily
>Dickinson. The white bride/in the Amherst attic . . ."

                        GOULD WAS THE MAN

GOULD, GEORGE HENRY (1827-1899) was Austin Dickinson's classmate
at Amherst College. After Emily Dickinson's death, Lavinia Dickinson spread
the unfounded rumor that Gould was the man Emily Dickinson had been in love
with and addressed in her love poems. None of the correspondence between
Dickinson and Gould has survived, except for a valentine Dickinson sent him,
which was published in the Amherst College Indicator in February 1850.

                         -- from An Emily Dickinson Encyclopedia,
                                 edited by Jane Donahue Eberwein

                 (don't even get me started on the Donahues, gavalt!)




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From Henry_Gould  Wed Dec 18 13:36:35 2002
From: Henry_Gould (Henry Gould)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 13:36:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: pertinent  Gouldiana
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021218132849.00ab32a0@postoffice.brown.edu>

Here's the whole ED section of the poem that's been quoted.  Sort of 
obscure and un-Dickinsonian, taken out of context, but anyway. . .  more of 
an experiment with inside-out rhymes than anything else. it was published 
in the Alterran Poetry Assemblage online magazine.

- the other Henry Gould


>http://members.rogers.com/alterra/gould.htm

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From Henry_Gould  Wed Dec 18 14:06:44 2002
From: Henry_Gould (Henry Gould)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 14:06:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: Pertinent Gouldiana
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021218140427.00aaf960@postoffice.brown.edu>

Odd - I was just handed a limited edition book to process for the library, 
for which they're paying big bucks.  The title:  Taking off Emily 
Dickinson's Clothes, by Billy Collins.  I happen to think that's a stupid 
title.

- Henry H. Gould, rival suitor




From acgold01  Wed Dec 18 17:27:52 2002
From: acgold01 (Alan C Golding)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 17:27:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Peter Ganick?
Message-ID: <se00b01d.047@gwise.louisville.edu>

If you're out there, Peter, could you please b/c me about a Potes &
Poets title?  Or if anyone has Peter's e-mail, could you please b/c?

Thanks,

Alan Golding



From gmguddi  Wed Dec 18 17:43:09 2002
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 16:43:09 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Peter Ganick?
In-Reply-To: <se00b01d.047@gwise.louisville.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021218164129.01b52e58@mail.ilstu.edu>

Wow, this is a coincidence. I *also* have a question about a Potes & Poets 
title. So, if anyone's got Peter's email, please b/c me too. There's an 
anthology that's forthcoming this spring, maybe this srping, and I'd like 
to know what the title of it is.

Gabe Gudding

At 05:27 PM 12/18/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>If you're out there, Peter, could you please b/c me about a Potes &
>Poets title?  Or if anyone has Peter's e-mail, could you please b/c?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Alan Golding
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

Gabriel Gudding
Assistant Professor
Department of English
Illinois State University
Normal, IL  61790
office 309.438.5284
home 309.828.8377

http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html




From luap  Wed Dec 18 19:48:34 2002
From: luap (K. Paul Mallasch)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 19:48:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] kpaul's December poem  
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021218132849.00ab32a0@postoffice.brown.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10212181937200.29176-100000@sauron.spinweb.net>

Well, with all my rambling and going-on about the poet not speaking
anymore to the 'common' man, here is one of my poems (wrote last nite with
very little editing) to show that perhaps I'm guilty of what I talk about
too. ;)

------------------------------------------------

pub 
---------------
publisher
big city
mean streets
irish or germ-
an honest mis-
take control in
the meeting
and speak up
about the rev-
enue pouring in
so we can buy $10k
cars to parade
around town
promoting
a style
brand
and
or
yeah,
you know
the marketing
trip down memory
lane - rain falls
gently in the spring
to summer transition w\
the river to look forward
to - floating down stream it
seems so easy so surreal so in-
tense in tents on the banks of a
nameless bend of river somewhere in
a drastically changed landscape - lakes
where there were no lakes and roads to no-
where literally. literal ally of literary
proportions. pretense falls by the way-
side in the rough out of doors in the
elements whatever they might be - a
ride in a train - cold wet sleet
and snow and the train slows
stops. lots of turn-abouts
as people rush home to
work to home to work
to aunt dorothy's
or their bro
steve or
some
other such
personality
real and/or
imagined.

complacent memory compiles nicely,
thank you.


-----------------------------------

In my Senior seminar we talked a lot about the role of the 'reader' -
fascinating stuff. I sure do miss classes and what not - or maybe not the
classes per se, but one or two of the profs (Ball State University) and
the fact that you had to read a lot. 

Oh the cruelty of being a poet in modern corporate america! <grin>

-mallasch.com/kpaul





From CobbCoStudioArts  Wed Dec 18 20:10:09 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 17:10:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] kpaul's December poem
Message-ID: <20021219011010.2212F4719@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From JforJames  Wed Dec 18 21:00:41 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 21:00:41 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] awful poem?
Message-ID: <160.18c6dbe0.2b328249@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/18/02 10:12:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com writes:

> Seems to me I've seen much worse posted right here,
>  awarded prestigious prizes, published in a "little"
>  magazine suddenly obscenely endowed, gushed over by
>  exalted academics.
>  
>  If this was really written by a 9 year-old, he's quite
>  precocious, for perfection of syntax, consistency of
>  imagery, and fluency.  I'd almost suspect a ringer.
>  
Richard, you must be kidding. Anyway, the problem
is not afflicted young fellow's poem. The situation that bears
some raised eyebrows is that so many adults, 
with presumably fully-formed adult sensiblities,
have "bought" (in both senses) so many copies of this book. But
I was wondering about that original story from Onion...could it be 
a put-on?...was it a swipe at Mattie J T Stepanek? Could 
Luke's Hopeweavings actually have sold 20 million copies?
I know a sucker used to be born every minute...but has it
gotten down to a millisecond?
Finnegan



From tadrichards  Wed Dec 18 21:21:04 2002
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 21:21:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] awful poem?
References: <160.18c6dbe0.2b328249@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002401c2a705$4977d3a0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Onion is always a put-on, and their occasional digs at poetry are always
funny.


----- Original Message -----
From: <JforJames at aol.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2002 9:00 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] awful poem?


> In a message dated 12/18/02 10:12:11 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com writes:
>
> > Seems to me I've seen much worse posted right here,
> >  awarded prestigious prizes, published in a "little"
> >  magazine suddenly obscenely endowed, gushed over by
> >  exalted academics.
> >
> >  If this was really written by a 9 year-old, he's quite
> >  precocious, for perfection of syntax, consistency of
> >  imagery, and fluency.  I'd almost suspect a ringer.
> >
> Richard, you must be kidding. Anyway, the problem
> is not afflicted young fellow's poem. The situation that bears
> some raised eyebrows is that so many adults,
> with presumably fully-formed adult sensiblities,
> have "bought" (in both senses) so many copies of this book. But
> I was wondering about that original story from Onion...could it be
> a put-on?...was it a swipe at Mattie J T Stepanek? Could
> Luke's Hopeweavings actually have sold 20 million copies?
> I know a sucker used to be born every minute...but has it
> gotten down to a millisecond?
> Finnegan
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From JforJames  Wed Dec 18 21:27:36 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 21:27:36 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Peter Ganick?
Message-ID: <125.1b95e6a8.2b328898@aol.com>

Peter isn't running Potes & Poets no mo....he
gave away the press, lock stock and logo, to a
woman who lives near Boston MA. I believe she
is keeping the list alive thru SPD (spdbooks.org);
and doing a few new titles too.
Peter fought the good fight for many years...he published
many important titles (lots of language poets) but finally packed it in 
about year and a half ago. One of his current projects, besides 
becoming an exhibiting visual artist, is poethia, an ezine.
poethia at mindspring.com
http://www.burningpress.org/va/poethiaindex.html
Finnegan



From grahamd  Wed Dec 18 22:37:21 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2002 21:37:21 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] awful poem?
Message-ID: <200212190337.gBJ3bKdk075346@mx9.mx.voyager.net>

>Onion is always a put-on, and their occasional digs at poetry are always
>funny.
> 

Yes.  I thought that their swipe at Mattie J. T. Stepanek's bathetic work
was right on, down to the fact that people feel uncomfortable judging the
quality of poetry produced by a boy with a terrible disease.  They even
captured the graphics of his books.  

In other poetic news, my favorite *Onion* headline from earlier this season:

NANTUCKET POET LAUREATE REFUSES 
TO APOLOGIZE FOR CONTROVERSIAL LIMERICK

I think *The Onion* is consistently hilarious, even after they moved from
Madison WI to the Big Apple.  If you aren't familiar with it:

http://www.theonion.com

========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================




From marcus  Thu Dec 19 07:29:18 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 07:29:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: writerdom, cont.
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20021218101145.00aae510@postoffice.brown.edu>
References: <20021218122802.8EF7B101C5@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <3E01754E.4768.39F5AB@localhost>

Henry Gould:
> well, with the usual proviso [Poetry is Many Things to Many People]:
> I think that poetry, not individual poets, wins the game.<<

All right -- but doesn't that make your analogy with chess a good bit 
weaker?  After all, we don't ordinarily speak of chess, and not 
individual chess players, winning the game.

Henry Gould:
>  And how does it 
> do that?  By being what it is, essentially (in my view anyway):  the means 
> by which we express the clearest thoughts and deepest feelings we 
> have.  Such thoughts & feelings are also expressed in prose and everyday 
> speech, of course:  but poets have a gift, analogous to musical talent, for 
> setting thoughts & feelings in their most effective light (ie. _King Lear_, 
> or example of your choice).<<

I like to distinguish between "getting it out there" and "getting it 
across" in these matters, and I think that the poetry inheres not 
merely in the expression (the getting it out there) of clearest 
thoughts and deepest feelings, which may also be done (isn't 
necessarily done but may be done) by merely inarticulate sounds, but 
in the "in their most effective light" (the getting it across) 
portion of what you're speaking about.  

I don't disagree with what I think you're saying here; I'm just 
worried that the largest majority of people who want to be known as 
poets hear "expression" and think that that's all that's needed -- 
that no "in their most effective light" efforts are required.  

Henry Gould: 
> So we have this presence of a thing called poetry in a given culture.  It 
> imposes its value by the traits it bears - cultures need this kind of 
> speech.  And if you believe this presence amounts to more than providing 
> baubles for mandarin elites or subcultures of enthusiasts, then 
> "collegiality" is defined by a kind of permeation of the literary 
> sensibility of the culture at large.  The literary absolute would be 
> exemplified by the most effective expression of those thoughts and 
> feelings; its reception would not be limited to specialists (granting, at 
> the same time, the key role of specialists in preserving and evaluating the 
> marginal, the difficult, the undiscovered).<

I'm with you, I think, on the "the most effective expression of those 
thoughts and feelings" part, and I think we'd agree, too, that it 
doesn't have to be "most effective expression", but rather that 
somewhat less effectiveness is acceptable so long as it's done with 
the "most effective expression" as the standard against which to 
measure any attempt.  The problem, as I see it, is trying to agree 
among either the mandarin elite or the culture at large just what the 
standard of "most effective expression" means.

What can it mean, reasonably, but illustrative examples from 
individual poets -- poems, in short?  Doesn't it mean that anyone who 
purports to take a stand on what is and is not an effective 
expression of the clearest thoughts and deepest feelings have to of 
necessity appeal to existing poems as the standard and make a 
different kind of analogy than that to chess?  

It seems to me that the analogy I'd prefer between games and poetry 
is that between sportsmanship and sensibility.  Those who play chess 
or baseball or whatever have a collegial sense of the difference 
between the hard, fair play we call sportsmanship and the equally, or 
perhaps more hard play that goes beyond the bounds of the game that 
seems unsportsmanlike, however successful it may occasionally be in 
achieiving a win in a particular game.  Similarly in art there is, it 
seems to me, an artistic sensibility that is comprised of a sort of 
hard, fair play within the cultural rules -- and a sort of equally 
hard but unartistic sort of play at which one winces with distaste 
for its over-the-topness, for its notgettingititudinosity.  Even 
though some people are very successful at getting grants and winning 
prizes and getting published, just as some people are very successful 
at winning games, it is the misuse of the talent which earns the 
winces of disgust, I think -- because most of those who can properly 
judge the circumstances would exclaim, were they given to exclaiming, 
that had the talent been properly used it would have been just as 
successful without the wincing disgust of those who know the most 
about the endeavor.

Henry Gould:
> If these points are valid, then the concept of the literary absolute, 
> however you want to name it, should be considered a factor more essential 
> than the promotional activity of either academic poetry circuits or 
> subcultural groupings.  The absolute itself, not the game-players of any 
> party, wins the game.  Circular logic is just as important in this field as 
> it is in law (see Louis Menand's magnificent book, "The Metaphysical Club").<

Still, it seems to me, though you might say that when there are many 
excellent chess players "chess itself wins", in a metaphorical sense, 
as I take it you are meaning that when there are many excellent poets 
"poetry itself wins", there is still a fundamental weakness in your 
analogy between a game itself and poetry itself because games such as 
chess and endeavors such as poetry are not merely different in degree 
but different in kind.  Poetry is only metaphorically a kind of game -
- it isn't really a game because there's no winning it in any 
objective ruling sense; and chess is only metaphorically a kind of 
commentary on character and life because there are objective rules 
that don't allow the best character with the best life to win the 
game if they don't play the game well enough to win by the objective 
rules.

So I urge you to consider my comparison between sportsmanship and 
sensibility as an alternative to yours between chess and poetry.



Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From Henry_Gould  Thu Dec 19 09:34:01 2002
From: Henry_Gould (Henry Gould)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 09:34:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] writerdom, cont.
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021219091409.00ab2580@postoffice.brown.edu>

Marcus,

Your well-put description of fair play covers most fields of human 
endeavor, yes.  All analogies are weak, but I still think there is an 
affinity between poetry and games like chess, because there is an X-factor 
present in originality which cannot be rationalized or easily 
contextualized with reference to past writings.  I think there is some 
truth in Mandelstam's epigram, which goes (in rough translation) something like

The poem is a stone fallen from heaven;
no one judges it.

Ultimately it's the X-factor which wins the game for poetry.  And the brief 
divagation-rencontre with Emily Dickinson yesterday seemed 
relevant.  I  felt like she was making a special appearance on 
New-Poetry.  She (in life & work) remains the leading avatar for the 
literary absolute - her originality stands always prior to its influences, 
reception or contextualization.

Henry




From halvard  Thu Dec 19 10:04:53 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 10:04:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Baraka redux
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEGMGAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Here's one prophet who's honored in his hometown--

from this ayem's NYT

December 19, 2002
Criticized Poet Is Named Laureate of Newark Schools
By ANDREW JACOBS


NEWARK, Dec. 18 ? In an act of defiance aimed at the state's political establishment, the school board here has anointed Amiri
Baraka the district's poet laureate at a time the state is trying to take the same designation away from him.

The unanimous vote by the nine-member advisory board comes as Mr. Baraka, the poet laureate of New Jersey, is under fire for a poem
he wrote last year suggesting that Israel had advance knowledge of the plot to attack the World Trade Center.

A longtime Newark resident who was pivotal in the Black Arts Movement of the 1960's, Mr. Baraka has ignored calls from Gov. James E.
McGreevey and others that he resign the post, which pays a stipend of $10,000. The governor does not have the power to remove the
laureate mantle, but legislative leaders in Trenton said they had enough votes to dissolve the post entirely when they meet after
the New Year. If that should fail, there are more than a half-dozen other bills meant to strip Mr. Baraka of the two-year position,
which he has held since August.

The school board's decision, made during a sparsely attended meeting late last month and reported today by The Star-Ledger of
Newark, quickly reignited passions that were only just beginning to subside.

"What Amiri Baraka has both written and said is clearly, patently inappropriate for children," said Shai Goldstein, New Jersey
regional director of the Anti-Defamation League. "To make a decision to expose children to this kind of bigotry is a cause for great
sadness." Kevin Davitt, a spokesman for the governor, agreed, saying the appointment "just boggles the mind."

But there were few voices of condemnation in Newark, where Mr. Baraka, 67, remains one of the city's best known and beloved
citizens. Many elected officials, like Councilman Donald Bradley, praised the board's decision, saying it brought much-needed
attention to Mr. Baraka's expansive body of work and his years of devotion to the city's beleaguered public schools through poetry
workshops and readings.

"Even though he's written some controversial things, he has his First Amendment rights and he's done some wonderful things for
Newark," Mr. Bradley said.

For members of the elected board, which plays an advisory role in a school system still run by the state, the resolution honoring
Mr. Baraka, a graduate of Newark schools, was an act of solidarity. At the previous meeting, the board passed a resolution calling
on the Legislature to read the poem from beginning to end.

"When someone is under attack unjustifiably, that's the time you have to speak out," said Richard Cammarieri, the board member who
introduced both measures.

Mr. Cammarieri, a friend of Mr. Baraka, said he did not consider the poem, "Somebody Blew Up America," anti-Semitic, noting that it
addresses the oppression of both blacks and Jews and poses a provocative a question that is directed at Israel, not Jews:

Who knew the World Trade Center was gonna get bombed

Who told 4000 Israeli workers at the Twin Towers

To stay home that day

Why did Sharon stay away?

Although that theory has been discredited, Mr. Baraka stands by the contention that Israelis were forewarned about the Sept. 11
attacks, saying there were only five Israelis among the nearly 3,000 victims.

"The idea might sound bizarre, but to say I'm an anti-Semite is not based on reality," Mr. Baraka said today. "If they want to find
anti-Semites, read the poetry of Ezra Pound and T.S. Eliot, poets that are loved and praised."

As in the past, he challenged his critics to a line-by-line examination of the poem, which provoked widespread ire after it was read
at a poetry festival in September. Moved by the school board's proclamation but resigned to the fate that awaits him in Trenton, Mr.
Baraka offered a wry assessment of his short, stormy tenure as New Jersey's poet laureate.

"At the very least," he said, "you can't say I'm not promoting poetry."


Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard





From Henry_Gould  Thu Dec 19 10:32:43 2002
From: Henry_Gould (Henry Gould)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 10:32:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] writerdom, cont.
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021219102200.00aab650@postoffice.brown.edu>

addendum:

The "literary X-factor" might be characterized as verbal-imaginative acumen 
- the essential, inimitable poetic virtu or force, for which 
storyteller-poets since Chretien de Troyes (at least) have come up with 
their own special names - fused with a quality of 
(vision-integrity-freedom) which (when we see it) we might call "greatness" 
or "soul".

Henry




From rwilsnac  Thu Dec 19 13:38:16 2002
From: rwilsnac (rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu)
Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 12:38:16 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20021219123814.00f3cab4@medicine.nodak.edu>

A brief inquiry from a reader-not-writer:

One of the emerging issues in the "empathy and art"
discussion has been whether good/outstanding poetry
must avoid being either undersupplied or overwhelmed
with novelty and surprise.

My questions: 

(A) To what extent is the writing of good, outstanding, 
or at least easily remembered poetry *dependent on*
(1) opening lines that "hook" the potential reader to
read further, and (2) "punchlines" -- not necessarily at
the end of a poem -- that make readers more likely to
retain, reread, and/or requote the poem over time, 
or at least to do this for the "punchlines." 

(2) Has the importance of hooks and punchlines changed 
over the last half-century or so, in USAnian or English-
language poetry? 

(3) Is the current use and importance of hooks and/or
punchlines benign, harmful, or beneficial, on balance? 

Any learned or at least tolerant replies and opinions
on any of these questions would be most welcome.

Richard W. Wilsnack
Department of Neuroscience
University of North Dakota School of Medicine & Health Sciences
rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu

P. S. My inquiry is prompted in part by recalling how closing 
lines of some of Wilfred Owen's work helped seal the whole
poems into long-term memory, e.g., "But the old man would not
so, but slew his son, / And half the seed of Europe, one by one," 
and the ironic of use of Horace, "...the old lie, / Dulce et 
decorum est pro patria mori."





From paul  Fri Dec 20 12:22:11 2002
From: paul (Paul C. Howell)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 12:22:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Reader-non-writer's Questions
In-Reply-To: <20021220170101.E1CA2101C7@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20021220121951.00b0d2e0@mail.tbhinc.com>

One would hope a reader-non-writer would answer these questions before the 
extinction of the breed:

>    1. Hooks and punchlines (rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu)
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 1
>Date: Thu, 19 Dec 2002 12:38:16 -0600
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>From: rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>A brief inquiry from a reader-not-writer:
>
>One of the emerging issues in the "empathy and art"
>discussion has been whether good/outstanding poetry
>must avoid being either undersupplied or overwhelmed
>with novelty and surprise.
>
>My questions:
>
>(A) To what extent is the writing of good, outstanding,
>or at least easily remembered poetry *dependent on*
>(1) opening lines that "hook" the potential reader to
>read further, and (2) "punchlines" -- not necessarily at
>the end of a poem -- that make readers more likely to
>retain, reread, and/or requote the poem over time,
>or at least to do this for the "punchlines."
>
>(2) Has the importance of hooks and punchlines changed
>over the last half-century or so, in USAnian or English-
>language poetry?
>
>(3) Is the current use and importance of hooks and/or
>punchlines benign, harmful, or beneficial, on balance?
>
>Any learned or at least tolerant replies and opinions
>on any of these questions would be most welcome.
>
>Richard W. Wilsnack
>Department of Neuroscience
>University of North Dakota School of Medicine & Health Sciences
>rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu
>
>P. S. My inquiry is prompted in part by recalling how closing
>lines of some of Wilfred Owen's work helped seal the whole
>poems into long-term memory, e.g., "But the old man would not
>so, but slew his son, / And half the seed of Europe, one by one,"
>and the ironic of use of Horace, "...the old lie, / Dulce et
>decorum est pro patria mori."
>
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>End of New-Poetry Digest
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From daisyf1  Fri Dec 20 10:25:55 2002
From: daisyf1 (Daisy Fried)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 10:25:55 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] for Gabriel Gudding
Message-ID: <20021220.102559.-1034033.1.daisyf1@juno.com>

Hi all, I'm trying to reach Gabriel Gudding--if you're reading this,
Gabe, will you backchannel me at daisyf1 at juno.com?
Thanks!
Daisy Fried
 



From JforJames  Fri Dec 20 19:19:10 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 19:19:10 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
Message-ID: <77.52ae568.2b350d7e@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/19/02 1:38:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu writes:

> To what extent is the writing of good, outstanding, 
>  or at least easily remembered poetry *dependent on*
>  (1) opening lines that "hook" the potential reader to
>  read further, and (2) "punchlines" -- not necessarily at
>  the end of a poem -- that make readers more likely to
>  retain, reread, and/or requote the poem over time, 
>  or at least to do this for the "punchlines." 
My thoughts: It's always the flashes & glints we remember
when we read a poem. The mind naturally pays more attention
as the poem springs-forth or as it clicks shut. It may not
be that those lines at the beginning and the ends of 
poems are any more arresting or memorable, but it may be
that one's attention latches on more fastly or the mind adheres 
with more force to the beginning and ending passages of  
poems. (My theory, which is my own, as the Monty Python
skit goes.)  Ideally, as far as the beginning of a poem goes, no
matter how engaging or arresting those first lines were the first time
you read them, it will never be the same river your mind steps
into, the second time you read them. 
Finnegan 



From rwilsnac  Fri Dec 20 20:31:37 2002
From: rwilsnac (rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 19:31:37 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20021220193134.00eaa060@medicine.nodak.edu>

At 09:51 AM 12/20/02 -0800, Chryss Yost wrote:

>Dear Richard,
>You may have to expand your question. "Hook" and "punchline" feel like
>content-dependent descriptions--based on the IDEA of the poem. A great idea
>can make a poem memorable, yet not always easy to memorize. 
<snip>
>What makes the precise phrasing of a specific poem or line easy to remember
>may have more to do with the sound, the meter and the rhyme, than on the
>idea...
<snip>
>"Hook and punchline" poetry seems to be a "short attention-span" poetry
>which suits this moment in our culture.
>C. 

Dear Chryss,

Thank you for your reply, which shows that I indeed did not make my query 
precise enough. I was thinking not of memorable "ideas," but of the degree 
to which the imagery or sound/rhythm or "surprise" of one or two lines in an 
entire poem may become crucial to the retention of that poem by many readers/
listeners, even if the one or two lines do NOT distill the meaning/affect/
artistry of the poem as a whole. Opening and closing lines may become 
"devices" that poets use (willingly or not) to capture the attention and 
memories of their readers, who THEREBY are helped or stimulated or tricked 
into developing a greater appreciation of whole poems. In a society where
there are more poems competing more easily for the attention for a limited
number of readers, (witness the diversity of the "best books" listed for 
2002), it seemed possible that "hooks" and "punchlines" as artifices
might become more necessary for writing "attention-getting" poetry,
independent of the value of those lines to the art of the poem as a whole. 

Hooks that are sound/rhythm based are easier to recall at the moment from 
languages other than English, such as Lorca's opening lines of "Romance 
somnambulo" ("Verde que te quiero verde. Verde viento. Verdes ramas."), 
or an arresting line in an otherwise rather arid poem of Eugenio Montale, 
describing the bitter scent of the sea ("Amaro aroma del mar"). An example 
of a punchline image is in Berryman's "Dream Song 16," which concludes, 
"Two daiquiris / withdrew into a corner of the gorgeous room / and one 
told the other a lie." A more "idea"-ish hook line might be the line in 
Howard Nemerov's ironic critique of history-making (it refers to Clio, but 
I'm stumbling on the exact title), where he says that "the interpretation 
is the next room of the dream," a middle line that became so well-known 
that it supplied the title for the book in which the Clio poem was 
published. While all of these lines were essential to their respective 
poems, they were not summaries of what the entire poems were about. But 
they make me wonder to what extent lesser poets are tempted to use hooks 
and punchlines to enhance the apparent value of otherwise humdrum or 
insipid poems.

I hope that this clarifies the sense of my questions.

Richard W. Wilsnack
rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu









From halvard  Fri Dec 20 20:32:48 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 20:32:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
In-Reply-To: <77.52ae568.2b350d7e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEJCGAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

{    Ideally, as far as the beginning of a poem goes, no
{    matter how engaging or arresting those first lines were the first time
{    you read them, it will never be the same river your mind steps
{    into, the second time you read them. 
{    Finnegan 

And, if you're really lucky, it isn't the same even the first time.

Hal         "Life swarms with innocent monsters."
                          --Charles Baudelaire
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From halvard  Sat Dec 21 10:58:03 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 10:58:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Charles Bukowski, "Plants Which Easily Winter Kill"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEJNGAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Plants Which Easily Winter Kill

plants which easily winter kill,
and the hair on the eyelids of a
horse is called
brills,
and
plants which easily winter kill
are
   Campanula medium
   Digitalis purpurea
   Early-flowered Chrysanthemums
   Salvia patens
   and
   Shasta Daisy,
and the United Daughters of the Confederacy was
founded in
Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 10,
1894.
the male heart weighs 10 to 12
ounces
and the female
8 to 10 ounces,
and in the 14th. century
1/3rd. of the population of England died
from the Black Death
which they say was caused by
unsanitary conditions,
and be careful of your grammar:
   bad:   He gave all of his
             property to
             charity.
   better:
             He gave all his property
             to charity.
   best:
             He kept all his
             property.
and
the superficial area of the earth is
196,950,000 sq. miles
and the earth weighs 
6,592,000,000,000,000,000,000 tons,
and my child said to me,
"Thinking is not the same as
knowing."

Jesus Christ died at the age of
33, and contrary to popular belief
a sawfish does not attack
whales.

--Charles Bukowski

in *Open Poetry: Four Anthologies of Expanded Poems*
eds. Ronald Gross, George Quasha [New York: Simon & Schuster, 1973]

Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From JforJames  Sat Dec 21 12:40:00 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 12:40:00 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
Message-ID: <18b.137f4ed8.2b360170@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/20/02 8:31:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu writes:

> Hooks that are sound/rhythm based are easier to recall at the moment from 
>  languages other than English, such as Lorca's opening lines of "Romance 
>  somnambulo" ("Verde que te quiero verde. Verde viento. Verdes ramas."), 
>  or an arresting line in an otherwise rather arid poem of Eugenio Montale, 
>  describing the bitter scent of the sea ("Amaro aroma del mar"). An example 
>  of a punchline image is in Berryman's "Dream Song 16," which concludes, 
>  "Two daiquiris / withdrew into a corner of the gorgeous room / and one 
>  told the other a lie." A more "idea"-ish hook line might be the line in 
>  Howard Nemerov's ironic critique of history-making (it refers to Clio, but 
>  I'm stumbling on the exact title), where he says that "the interpretation 
>  is the next room of the dream," a middle line that became so well-known 
>  that it supplied the title for the book in which the Clio poem was 
>  published. While all of these lines were essential to their respective 
>  poems, they were not summaries of what the entire poems were about. But 
>  they make me wonder to what extent lesser poets are tempted to use hooks 
>  and punchlines to enhance the apparent value of otherwise humdrum or 
>  insipid poems.
Richard, it would be an interesting thesis to try to prove. I can see a lot
problems with measurement, for one thing...you'd have to be able
to show clearly that there is a great fall off or lapse in 
diction/imagery/sound
after the poem's opening line and before the final bars. You'll be running
into a certain amount of "de gustibus no est disputandum" as you try to
demonstrate, objectively, that the ship of the poem, despite the beautifully
carved figurehead fore & the shiny brass fittings of the wheelhouse aft, was 
something of a scow or tramp freighter in between.
The other thing that makes the thesis somewhat iffy is that some of the 
effects 
you describe could happen without intention or at least somewhat 
subconsciously.
I alluded earlier to the idea that it may be more a phenomenon of the reader's
attention, but isn't it so that poems often begin in the mind of a writer as a
brilliancy or insight, a special image, a sonorous turn of phrase, etc.,
so what goes down on paper first often stays there through successive 
versions. The rest of the poem is the writer's struggle to live up to
that opening passage, to justify it, or even to exceed to. Most poems fail,
or at least falter in places and fail to sustain the imaginative impetus 
upon which they were founded. However, the poet struggles on, struggles
to find a way out the poem, and it may be that the second best line
will offer him/her way to close the work forcefully, with due drama, or at
least in way that seems worthy of all the foregoing effort. Poets naturally 
look for a crescendo, or the high-note the diva must hit at the end of an 
aria.
(Stravinsky scolded too many pieces of music for finishing long after they 
end.)
So what one may see as a venal attempt by the poet to accost by grabbing
hold and shaking the reader by the lapels or to flash so brilliantly at the 
close 
that an afterimage seems to have forever scarred one's retinas, is just what 
most failed poems are: all sound & fury first and last, with fits & starts in 
between.
Finnegan



From rwilsnac  Sat Dec 21 13:07:13 2002
From: rwilsnac (rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 12:07:13 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20021221120710.00eacc24@medicine.nodak.edu>

At 12:40 PM 12/21/02 EST, JforJames at aol.com wrote:
>...isn't it so that poems often begin in the mind of a writer as a
>brilliancy or insight, a special image, a sonorous turn of phrase, etc.,
>so what goes down on paper first often stays there through successive 
>versions. The rest of the poem is the writer's struggle to live up to
>that opening passage, to justify it, or even to exceed to. Most poems fail,
>or at least falter in places and fail to sustain the imaginative impetus 
>upon which they were founded. However, the poet struggles on, struggles
>to find a way out the poem, and it may be that the second best line
>will offer him/her way to close the work forcefully, with due drama, or at
>least in way that seems worthy of all the foregoing effort. Poets naturally 
>look for a crescendo, or the high-note the diva must hit at the end of an 
>aria. (Stravinsky scolded too many pieces of music for finishing long after  
>they end.) So what one may see as a venal attempt by the poet to accost 
>by grabbing hold and shaking the reader by the lapels or to flash so 
>brilliantly at the close that an afterimage seems to have forever scarred 
>one's retinas, is just what most failed poems are: all sound & fury first 
>and last, with fits & starts in between.

What a rare pleasure to provoke such a thoughtful response! It is also
good medicine to have my habitual cynicism so well corrected. We all
have difficulty living up to our best brief moments, and they haunt us
ever after. My lingering (but weakened) rationalization for my questions 
is the possibility that the education of poets-to-be in our society (and
possibly the comments they receive back from reviewers and editors)
may sometimes explicitly encourage them to create memorable lines
as a way to help market their poems.  

Richard W. Wilsnack
rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu



From MillB  Sat Dec 21 13:36:02 2002
From: MillB (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 13:36:02 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jentel
Message-ID: <15f.18f6e9af.2b360e92@aol.com>

Greetings:

In a couple of weeks, I'll be headed to Wyoming for a residency at Jentel.  
Has anyone else on this list been there?  Or heard of anyone who's been?

Thanks!

Happy Christmas

Mill
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From chryss  Sat Dec 21 14:03:35 2002
From: chryss (Chryss Yost)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 11:03:35 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20021221120710.00eacc24@medicine.nodak.edu>
Message-ID: <BA29FB07.5C5D%chryss@silcom.com>

On 12/21/02 10:07 AM, rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu wrote:
>lingering (but weakened) rationalization for my questions
> is the possibility that the education of poets-to-be in our society (and
> possibly the comments they receive back from reviewers and editors)
> may sometimes explicitly encourage them to create memorable lines
> as a way to help market their poems.

<gasp!> Do you mean poets are being TRICKED into creating memorable lines?
</gasp!> 

EVERY poetry teacher (or reviewer or editor) should explicitly encourage the
creation of memorable lines.  




From luap  Sat Dec 21 14:17:32 2002
From: luap (K. Paul Mallasch)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 14:17:32 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
In-Reply-To: <BA29FB07.5C5D%chryss@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10212211414350.18995-100000@sauron.spinweb.net>

On Sat, 21 Dec 2002, Chryss Yost wrote:

> On 12/21/02 10:07 AM, rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu wrote:
> > as a way to help market their poems.

I think this was the key point - at least for me. '..as a way to help
market' - as in thinking more about marketing as a business (to eat most
poets need at last an inkling of this, but not *too* much ;) rather than
memorable lines (i.e. good lines) as part of the poetic form.

My (longwinded and runon) 2 cents,
kpaul
mallasch.com/mug/
 
> <gasp!> Do you mean poets are being TRICKED into creating memorable lines?
> </gasp!> 
> 
> EVERY poetry teacher (or reviewer or editor) should explicitly encourage the
> creation of memorable lines.  
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From halvard  Sat Dec 21 14:18:43 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 14:18:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
In-Reply-To: <BA29FB07.5C5D%chryss@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEKCGAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

  
{    EVERY poetry teacher (or reviewer or editor) should explicitly encourage the
{    creation of memorable lines.  

Nah, those who can create memorable lines should be shunted
into advertising, where they can make a decent living from their skill.

Hal     "A poet is someone from whom nothing must be
            taken and to whom nothing must be given."
                         --Anna Akhmatova

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From grahamd  Sat Dec 21 14:45:30 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 13:45:30 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birthday
Message-ID: <200212211945.gBLJjXmF069784@mx13.mx.voyager.net>

How about a toast to the ghost of Richard Hugo on his birthday? --


Degrees of Gray in Philipsburg

You might come here Sunday on a whim.
Say your life broke down.  The last good kiss
you had was years ago.  You walk these streets
laid out by the insane, past hotels
that didn't last, bars that did, the tortured try
of local drivers to accelerate their lives.
Only churches are kept up.  The jail
turned 70 this year.  The only prisoner
is always in, not knowing what he's done.

The principal supporting business now
is rage.  Hatred of the various grays
the mountain sends, hatred of the mill,
The Silver Bill repeal, the best liked girls
who leave each year for Butte.  One good
restaurant and bars can't wipe the boredom out.
The 1907 boom, eight going silver mines,
a dance floor built on springs---
all memory resolves itself in gaze,
in panoramic green you know the cattle eat
or two stacks high above the town,
two dead kilns, the huge mill in collapse
for fifty years that won't fall finally down.

Isn't this your life?  That ancient kiss
still burning out your eyes?  Isn't this defeat
so accurate, the church bell simply seems
a pure announcement:  ring and no one comes:
Don't empty houses ring?  Are magnesium
and scorn sufficient to support a town,
not just Philipsburg, but towns
of towering blondes, good jazz and booze
the world will never let you have
until the town you came from dies inside?

Say no to yourself.  The old man, twenty
when the jail was built, still laughs
although his lips collapse.  Someday soon,
he says, I'll go to sleep and not wake up.
You tell him no.  You're talking to yourself.
The car that brought you here still runs.
The money you buy lunch with,
no matter where it's mined, is silver
and the girl who serves your food
is slender and her red hair lights the wall.

   Richard Hugo


========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================




From CobbCoStudioArts  Sat Dec 21 15:26:25 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 12:26:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jentel
Message-ID: <20021221202626.1BB57398C@sitemail.everyone.net>

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Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jentel
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From MillB  Sat Dec 21 16:22:48 2002
From: MillB (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 16:22:48 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jentel
Message-ID: <138.18c347c6.2b3635a8@aol.com>

Bob:

Thanks!  

I've got big plans for writing projects. . .it's been nearly four years since 
I was at Yaddo. . .

Jentel is a new residency program, so I have to admit that I'm curious about 
it.  It's for a month and they also offer a small stipend. 

Cheers,

Mill




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From JforJames  Sat Dec 21 17:23:02 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 17:23:02 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birthday
Message-ID: <f2.26b5c965.2b3643c6@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/21/02 2:46:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes:

> How about a toast to the ghost of Richard Hugo on his birthday? --
definitely, chin-chin, skoal and all that....
Finnegan



From JforJames  Sat Dec 21 17:43:25 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 17:43:25 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
Message-ID: <1b9.b2fbfd0.2b36488d@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/20/02 8:35:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
halvard at earthlink.net writes:

> Ideally, as far as the beginning of a poem goes, no
>  {    matter how engaging or arresting those first lines were the first time
>  {    you read them, it will never be the same river your mind steps
>  {    into, the second time you read them. 
>  {    Finnegan 
>  
>  And, if you're really lucky, it isn't the same even the first time.
>  
Hal, you're the master of the cryptic retort...but this one is too deep
for me: isn't the same even the first time? Beyond my ken and more
radical than Zen.
Finnegan



From JforJames  Sat Dec 21 18:00:21 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 18:00:21 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
Message-ID: <fb.332e5aac.2b364c85@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/21/02 2:06:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
chryss at silcom.com writes:

> gasp!> Do you mean poets are being TRICKED into creating memorable lines?
>  </gasp!> 
>  
>  EVERY poetry teacher (or reviewer or editor) should explicitly encourage 
the
>  creation of memorable lines.  
Chryss, no one could disagree with you. But I  think it's an open question as 
to
whether "memorable lines" are made and immediately become self-evidently
memorable, or whether we learn them, are taught how to appreciate their
self-evident merits. The challenge might be to post a poem here that is so 
chock full of memorable lines that it is destined to be acknowledged as 
important,  canonical out of the blocks or on its face. I recently heard 
someone read The
Love Song of J Alfred Prufrock from memory and the lines seemed so familiar
that for a moment I almost forgot how striking they were in their originality.
The paradox of memorability?
Finnegan



From tadrichards  Sat Dec 21 20:45:33 2002
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 20:45:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birthday
References: <200212211945.gBLJjXmF069784@mx13.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <004801c2a95b$d16f0ff0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

I'll drink to Dick.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 2:45 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birthday


> How about a toast to the ghost of Richard Hugo on his birthday? --
> 
> 
> Degrees of Gray in Philipsburg
> 
> You might come here Sunday on a whim.
> Say your life broke down.  The last good kiss
> you had was years ago.  You walk these streets
> laid out by the insane, past hotels
> that didn't last, bars that did, the tortured try
> of local drivers to accelerate their lives.
> Only churches are kept up.  The jail
> turned 70 this year.  The only prisoner
> is always in, not knowing what he's done.
> 
> The principal supporting business now
> is rage.  Hatred of the various grays
> the mountain sends, hatred of the mill,
> The Silver Bill repeal, the best liked girls
> who leave each year for Butte.  One good
> restaurant and bars can't wipe the boredom out.
> The 1907 boom, eight going silver mines,
> a dance floor built on springs---
> all memory resolves itself in gaze,
> in panoramic green you know the cattle eat
> or two stacks high above the town,
> two dead kilns, the huge mill in collapse
> for fifty years that won't fall finally down.
> 
> Isn't this your life?  That ancient kiss
> still burning out your eyes?  Isn't this defeat
> so accurate, the church bell simply seems
> a pure announcement:  ring and no one comes:
> Don't empty houses ring?  Are magnesium
> and scorn sufficient to support a town,
> not just Philipsburg, but towns
> of towering blondes, good jazz and booze
> the world will never let you have
> until the town you came from dies inside?
> 
> Say no to yourself.  The old man, twenty
> when the jail was built, still laughs
> although his lips collapse.  Someday soon,
> he says, I'll go to sleep and not wake up.
> You tell him no.  You're talking to yourself.
> The car that brought you here still runs.
> The money you buy lunch with,
> no matter where it's mined, is silver
> and the girl who serves your food
> is slender and her red hair lights the wall.
> 
>    Richard Hugo
> 
> 
> ========================================
> David Graham
> Professor of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>    Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>    Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> 
>    Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> =======================================
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From halvard  Sun Dec 22 00:05:09 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 00:05:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
In-Reply-To: <1b9.b2fbfd0.2b36488d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEKMGAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

 
{    > Ideally, as far as the beginning of a poem goes, no
{    >  {    matter how engaging or arresting those first lines were the first time
{    >  {    you read them, it will never be the same river your mind steps
{    >  {    into, the second time you read them. 
{    >  {    Finnegan 
{    >  
{    >  And, if you're really lucky, it isn't the same even the first time.
{    >  
{    Hal, you're the master of the cryptic retort...but this one is too deep
{    for me: isn't the same even the first time? Beyond my ken and more
{    radical than Zen.
{    Finnegan

Nothing all that deep, Jim. Heraclitus said we couldn't step into the
same river twice, but that idea's long been superseded by the notion
that we can't step into the same river once. 

Hal         "I think I think; therefore I think I am."
                                --Ambrose Bierce
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From halvard  Sun Dec 22 00:05:10 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 00:05:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Season's greetings
In-Reply-To: <004801c2a95b$d16f0ff0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEKMGAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

and au revoir to all. My wife and I are off to a five-week stint
at an arts colony (the Virginia Center for the Creative Arts) and
will be away from telephones, email, etc. etc. for a while.

Best wishes to all. See you in late January or early February.

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From dbarone  Sun Dec 22 09:41:32 2002
From: dbarone (Barone, Dennis)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 09:41:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] hooks and punch lines
Message-ID: <0D9D00A18A08ED47875BD976E134249001BA1941@sjcmail.sjc.edu>


A quick comment regarding hooks and punch lines.  I agree with Jim and would
add this: perhaps a difference between prose and poetry.  A good work of
fiction will turn it on at times and others fall back a bit, but perhaps a
poem that depends too much on hook lines or punch lines (especially common
at present, I think) is a sinker.  A good poem never lets up.  Nothing new
here -- see Pound's ABC of Reading, for example of same opinion.  Happy
Holidays.

Dennis Barone



From JforJames  Sun Dec 22 13:22:40 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 13:22:40 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Holiday Poems from Knopf
Message-ID: <ea.3304ab32.2b375cf0@aol.com>

Subj:    Holiday Poems from Knopf
Date:   12/17/02 6:42:11 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:   webmaster at randomhouse.com (The Knopf Poetry Center)

Today's poetry is from CHRISTMAS POEMS, an Everyman?s Library Pocket Poets
collection.

Christmas, both a holiday and a holy day, has always been associated with
poetry, from the song of the seraphim above the manger to the chorus of
carols around the punch bowl.  This year, we bring you a selection of
poems to enhance your celebration. No matter what part of the holiday
season moves you most, we think you?ll find words to love here.

Below the poems, enjoy our holiday check-list -- twenty-seven gift-worthy
books from 2002.

With all good cheer,

The Knopf Poetry Center
http://www.aaknopf.com/poetry/

-----------------------------------------------

City Christmas

Now is the time when the great urban heart
    More warmly beats, exiling melancholy.
Turkey comes table d?hote or a la carte. 
    Our elevator wears a wreath of holly.

Mendicant Santa Claus in flannel robes
    At every corner contradicts his label, 
Alms-asking. We?ve a tree with colored globes
    In our apartment foyer, on a table. 

There is a promise ? or a threat ? of snow
    Noised by the press. We pull our collars tighter.
And twenty thousand doormen hourly grow
    Politer and politer and politer. 

--Phyllis McGinley

-----------------------------------------------

The Christmas Robin

The snows of February had buried Christmas
Deep in the woods, where grew self-seeded
The fir-trees of a Christmas yet unknown, 
Without a candle or a strand of tinsel.

Nevertheless when, hand in hand, plodding
Between the frozen ruts, we lovers paused
And ?Christmas trees!? cried suddenly together,
Christmas was there again, as in December.

We velveted our love with fantasy 
Down a long vista-row of Christmas trees,
Whose coloured candles slowly guttered down
As grandchildren came trooping round our knees.

But he knew better, did the Christmas robin ?
The murderous robin with his breast aglow
And legs apart, in a spade-handle perched:
He prophesied more snow, and worse than snow.

-- Robert Graves

-----------------------------------------------

New Year Poem

The short afternoon ends, and the year is over; 
Above trees at the end of the garden the sky is unchanged,
An endless sky; and the wet streets, as ever,
Between standing houses are empty and unchallenged.


From marcus  Sun Dec 22 14:04:56 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 14:04:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
In-Reply-To: <fb.332e5aac.2b364c85@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3E05C688.25068.259B1E@localhost>

> >  EVERY poetry teacher (or reviewer or editor) should explicitly encourage 
> the creation of memorable lines.  

> Chryss, no one could disagree with you. But I  think it's an open question as 
> to
> whether "memorable lines" are made and immediately become self-evidently
> memorable, or whether we learn them, are taught how to appreciate their
> self-evident merits. The challenge might be to post a poem here that is so 
> chock full of memorable lines that it is destined to be acknowledged as 
> important,  canonical out of the blocks or on its face. I recently heard 
> someone read The
> Love Song of J Alfred Prufrock from memory and the lines seemed so familiar
> that for a moment I almost forgot how striking they were in their originality.
> The paradox of memorability?
> Finnegan

There is a New Yorker cartoon that shows a prosperous-looking fur-
dressed of-a-certain-age woman saying to her equally prosperous-
looking husband as they exit the theater under the marquis that says 
"Tonight:  HAMLET":  "I don't know why everyone says its such a great 
play -- it's just a bunch of old cliches strung together!"



Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From ron.silliman  Mon Dec 23 07:05:24 2002
From: ron.silliman (Ron)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 07:05:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The latest on the Blog
Message-ID: <000601c2aa7b$97fffab0$cd0ff243@Dell>

A new issue of Shiny:
The NY School in 2002
+ Lisa Jarnot's "Hound Pastoral"

Charles Bernstein &/or X.J. Kennedy:
A question of context from Annie Finch
with a glance at Paul Celan

Peter Ganick's tend.field
An extremophile's poetics

Close reading Jennifer Moxley

Gary Sullivan:
A temporal theory of humor in poetry

Between the poem & the longpoem,
an intermediate mode: the poem as book
Pattie McCarthy's bk of (h)rs

The discourse of color in 
Rachel Blau DuPlessis' Draft 1: It

Starting a longpoem:
Rachel Blau DuPlessis' Drafts

On the postmodern wink:
Why humor doesn't travel well in poetry

It's a wise book that understands its cover:
Three book designs from Lost Roads
(Frank Stanford, Besmilr Brigham &Frank Stanford)

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/






From Henry_Gould  Mon Dec 23 08:27:13 2002
From: Henry_Gould (Henry Gould)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 08:27:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20021221120710.00eacc24@medicine.nodak.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021223080131.00ab49c0@postoffice.brown.edu>

I wouldn't worry too much about poetry teachers promoting hooks & 
punchlines.  Agree with Dennis Barone's comment.  Lines emerge out of the 
momentum of the poem as a whole.  Often the metrics or the rhyme scheme act 
as catalyst, but the main impetus comes from the excitement generated by 
the thing in its entirety.  I often have the sense that the poem is the 
elaboration of a pre-existent concept.   That's the way Yeats worked, 
anyway - he sketched out his poems beforehand as little stories or 
statements in prose, the lines coming at the end, not the 
beginning.   (Though Yeats is certainly one who played up the value of a 
resounding opener or closing line.  Still I think it's the combination of a 
clear concept and a metrical "fit" that creates the conditions for good 
lines to happen.)

Henry




From bobgrumman  Mon Dec 23 09:19:32 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 09:19:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20021223080131.00ab49c0@postoffice.brown.edu>
Message-ID: <008501c2aa8e$50a40680$51c1fea9@j1c1k6>

It seems to me that most poems are too short to need hooks, and it is often
effective to start them slow.

I also think that any poem should do something memorable, it doesn't matter
where.

Bob G., just to get in this discussion briefly before it ends.




From anastasios  Mon Dec 23 10:33:43 2002
From: anastasios (anastasios at hell.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 10:33:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
In-Reply-To: <008501c2aa8e$50a40680$51c1fea9@j1c1k6>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20021223080131.00ab49c0@postoffice.brown.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021223102023.00b91ab0@incoming.verizon.net>

speaking of hooks and punchlines,

Joe Strummer died last night. Cause of death unknown. London's Calling, indeed.



Johnny Appleseed

Lord, there goes Johnny Appleseed
He might pass by, in the hour of need,
There's a lot of souls...ain't drinking from no well,
Locked in a factory,
Hey look there goes, hey look there goes,
If you're after getting the honey,
Then you don't go killing all the bees,
Lord, there goes, Martin Luther King,
Notice how the door closes
When the chimes of freedom ring?
I hear what you're saying...
I hear what he's saying...
If you're after getting the honey,
Then you don't go killing all the bees,
That's what the people are saying,
And we know every road...go! go!
That's what the people are saying,
There ain't no berries on the trees...
Let the summertime sun,
Fall on the apple, fall on the apple...
Lord, there goes a Buick Forty-Nine,
Black sheep of the angels riding
Riding down the line,
We think there is a soul...we don't know,
That soul is hard to find,
Hey! Down along the road,
Down along the road...Hey!
If you're after getting the honey...
Then you don't go killing all the bees,
Hey! It's what the people are saying
There ain't no berries on the trees...
You came to skim off the honey, baby,
And you had to go killin' all the bees.


--Joe Strummer

LONDON (Reuters) - Joe Strummer, frontman with the Clash whose 1979
track "London Calling" exploded as one of punk's biggest anthems, has died at
the age of 50, a spokesman said on Monday.

The singer, guitarist and songwriter died at his home in Somerset, western
England of unknown causes.

"We do not yet know the cause of death, but we believe it was not suspicious
and that he passed away peacefully. An autopsy will be forthcoming," the
spokesman said.

Born John Graham Mellor in Ankara, Turkey, Strummer's talents propelled him
from busting on the London Underground to fame with the Clash, who with the 
Sex
Pistols came to define the in-your-face sound and style of 1970s British punk.

Until they split in the 1980s, the Clash produced a catalog of punk classics,
including "Career Opportunities" and "Should I Stay or Should I Go?,"
distilling the depression, anger and energy of 1970s Britain.

But they transcended the three-chord aggression to deliver messages of anti-
racism and social consciousness.

Strummer, the son of a British diplomat, wrote many of the band's biggest hits.

"He was one of the most important figures in modern British music, a powerful
performer and a wordsmith on the same level as Bob Dylan," said Pat Gilbert,
editor of British music magazine Mojo

"His music had compassion and vision, backed with an agenda to change the 
world
for the better...I was shocked to hear of his death," he told Reuters.

Sometimes described as rebels with a cause, the Clash fused a variety of
musical styles -- reggae, dub, funk and even rap -- with a political message
that brought punk to the mainstream and also found big success in the U.S.
market.

In 1976 Strummer met a then 23-year-old guitarist Mick Jones and linked up 
with
bassist Paul Simonon and drummer Terry Chimes. As the Clash, the quartet made
an immediate and explosive impact in Britain.

Rolling Stone magazine called their 1977 eponymous debut "The definitive punk
album."

Follow-ups "Give 'Em Enough Rope" (1978), and "London Calling" (1979) also
became instant punk classics. After The Clash split, a tireless Strummer 
stayed
center stage with a variety of projects, dabbling in acting and writing music
for films.

More recently, Strummer toured with a new band, the Mescaleros, and played a
benefit concert with Mick Jones in November, reuniting with his partner in 
punk
for the first time in nearly 20 years.

At the time of his death, Strummer was collaborating with U2's Bono and Dave
Stewart, formerly of the Eurythmics, on an AIDS awareness track.

"The Clash are to be inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame next year 
and
there was hope that there would be a reunion and a tour...this must be
especially sad for their fans," Gilbert said.

His death is a double blow for punk fans still mourning the fatal drug 
overdose
in June of singer Dee Dee Ramone from legendary American band the Ramones.

Strummer is survived by his wife, two daughters and one stepdaughter. 




From anastasios  Mon Dec 23 10:37:00 2002
From: anastasios (anastasios at hell.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 10:37:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
In-Reply-To: <008501c2aa8e$50a40680$51c1fea9@j1c1k6>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20021223080131.00ab49c0@postoffice.brown.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021223103617.00b91ab0@incoming.verizon.net>

It appears people don't think the poem's first world is that important.
I find that interesting, and I don't think it has to do anything with hooks.
Entrances and beginnings...

--Ak


At 09:19 AM 12/23/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>It seems to me that most poems are too short to need hooks, and it is often
>effective to start them slow.
>
>I also think that any poem should do something memorable, it doesn't matter
>where.
>
>Bob G., just to get in this discussion briefly before it ends.
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From DICK  Mon Dec 23 11:02:33 2002
From: DICK (DICK at yktvmv.vnet.ibm.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 02 11:02:33 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] "hook lines"
Message-ID: <200212231608.gBNG8AfC003902@northrelay05.pok.ibm.com>

>>A quick comment regarding hooks and punch lines.  I agree with Jim and would
>>add this: perhaps a difference between prose and poetry.  A good work of
>>fiction will turn it on at times and others fall back a bit, but perhaps a
>>poem that depends too much on hook lines or punch lines (especially common
>>at present, I think) is a sinker.  A good poem never lets up.  Nothing new
>>here -- see Pound's ABC of Reading, for example of same opinion.  Happy
>>Holidays.
>>
>>Dennis Barone
>>
Very well put.  My thoughts exactly.  And with luck the good lines
which comprise the poem, will in fact be related to each other.  Then
there will be a good poem.

Doesn't happen all that often.  Which is actually a good thing,
given the otherwise impossible task of "keeping up with the
literature."

Richard



From CobbCoStudioArts  Mon Dec 23 12:18:53 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 09:18:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
Message-ID: <20021223171853.801B011E59@sitemail.everyone.net>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20021223/61f8f094/attachment.ksh>


From marcus  Mon Dec 23 12:41:00 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 12:41:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "hook lines"
In-Reply-To: <200212231608.gBNG8AfC003902@northrelay05.pok.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <3E07045C.5185.170EB64@localhost>

> >>Dennis Barone
> >>A quick comment regarding hooks and punch lines.  I agree with Jim and would
> >>add this: perhaps a difference between prose and poetry.  A good work of
> >>fiction will turn it on at times and others fall back a bit, but perhaps a
> >>poem that depends too much on hook lines or punch lines (especially common
> >>at present, I think) is a sinker.  A good poem never lets up.  Nothing new
> >>here -- see Pound's ABC of Reading, for example of same opinion.  Happy
> >>Holidays.

> Richard
> Very well put.  My thoughts exactly.  And with luck the good lines
> which comprise the poem, will in fact be related to each other.  Then
> there will be a good poem.
> Doesn't happen all that often.  Which is actually a good thing,
> given the otherwise impossible task of "keeping up with the
> literature."

My advice is to leave out the lines the readers skip.



Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From CobbCoStudioArts  Mon Dec 23 14:41:33 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 11:41:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
Message-ID: <20021223194133.62C7D3B6C@sitemail.everyone.net>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20021223/29ed5c1e/attachment.ksh>


From tadrichards  Mon Dec 23 15:38:45 2002
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 15:38:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20021223080131.00ab49c0@postoffice.brown.edu>
Message-ID: <004d01c2aac3$4a3f1cf0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

I don't teach hooks and punchlines, but if I did, it would be one lesson
among many. You don't teach everything at the same time.

Tad


----- Original Message -----
From: "Henry Gould" <Henry_Gould at brown.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 8:27 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines


> I wouldn't worry too much about poetry teachers promoting hooks &
> punchlines.  Agree with Dennis Barone's comment.  Lines emerge out of the
> momentum of the poem as a whole.  Often the metrics or the rhyme scheme
act
> as catalyst, but the main impetus comes from the excitement generated by
> the thing in its entirety.  I often have the sense that the poem is the
> elaboration of a pre-existent concept.   That's the way Yeats worked,
> anyway - he sketched out his poems beforehand as little stories or
> statements in prose, the lines coming at the end, not the
> beginning.   (Though Yeats is certainly one who played up the value of a
> resounding opener or closing line.  Still I think it's the combination of
a
> clear concept and a metrical "fit" that creates the conditions for good
> lines to happen.)
>
> Henry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From tadrichards  Mon Dec 23 15:41:58 2002
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 15:41:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20021223080131.00ab49c0@postoffice.brown.edu> <5.1.0.14.2.20021223102023.00b91ab0@incoming.verizon.net>
Message-ID: <008201c2aac3$bd760c10$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Strummer was one of the remarkable wordsmiths of our time. I loved his
songs. He'll be missed.

----- Original Message -----
From: <anastasios at hell.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, December 23, 2002 10:33 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines


> speaking of hooks and punchlines,
>
> Joe Strummer died last night. Cause of death unknown. London's Calling,
indeed.
>
>
>
> Johnny Appleseed
>
> Lord, there goes Johnny Appleseed
> He might pass by, in the hour of need,
> There's a lot of souls...ain't drinking from no well,
> Locked in a factory,
> Hey look there goes, hey look there goes,
> If you're after getting the honey,
> Then you don't go killing all the bees,
> Lord, there goes, Martin Luther King,
> Notice how the door closes
> When the chimes of freedom ring?
> I hear what you're saying...
> I hear what he's saying...
> If you're after getting the honey,
> Then you don't go killing all the bees,
> That's what the people are saying,
> And we know every road...go! go!
> That's what the people are saying,
> There ain't no berries on the trees...
> Let the summertime sun,
> Fall on the apple, fall on the apple...
> Lord, there goes a Buick Forty-Nine,
> Black sheep of the angels riding
> Riding down the line,
> We think there is a soul...we don't know,
> That soul is hard to find,
> Hey! Down along the road,
> Down along the road...Hey!
> If you're after getting the honey...
> Then you don't go killing all the bees,
> Hey! It's what the people are saying
> There ain't no berries on the trees...
> You came to skim off the honey, baby,
> And you had to go killin' all the bees.
>
>
> --Joe Strummer
>
> LONDON (Reuters) - Joe Strummer, frontman with the Clash whose 1979
> track "London Calling" exploded as one of punk's biggest anthems, has died
at
> the age of 50, a spokesman said on Monday.
>
> The singer, guitarist and songwriter died at his home in Somerset, western
> England of unknown causes.
>
> "We do not yet know the cause of death, but we believe it was not
suspicious
> and that he passed away peacefully. An autopsy will be forthcoming," the
> spokesman said.
>
> Born John Graham Mellor in Ankara, Turkey, Strummer's talents propelled
him
> from busting on the London Underground to fame with the Clash, who with
the
> Sex
> Pistols came to define the in-your-face sound and style of 1970s British
punk.
>
> Until they split in the 1980s, the Clash produced a catalog of punk
classics,
> including "Career Opportunities" and "Should I Stay or Should I Go?,"
> distilling the depression, anger and energy of 1970s Britain.
>
> But they transcended the three-chord aggression to deliver messages of
anti-
> racism and social consciousness.
>
> Strummer, the son of a British diplomat, wrote many of the band's biggest
hits.
>
> "He was one of the most important figures in modern British music, a
powerful
> performer and a wordsmith on the same level as Bob Dylan," said Pat
Gilbert,
> editor of British music magazine Mojo
>
> "His music had compassion and vision, backed with an agenda to change the
> world
> for the better...I was shocked to hear of his death," he told Reuters.
>
> Sometimes described as rebels with a cause, the Clash fused a variety of
> musical styles -- reggae, dub, funk and even rap -- with a political
message
> that brought punk to the mainstream and also found big success in the U.S.
> market.
>
> In 1976 Strummer met a then 23-year-old guitarist Mick Jones and linked up
> with
> bassist Paul Simonon and drummer Terry Chimes. As the Clash, the quartet
made
> an immediate and explosive impact in Britain.
>
> Rolling Stone magazine called their 1977 eponymous debut "The definitive
punk
> album."
>
> Follow-ups "Give 'Em Enough Rope" (1978), and "London Calling" (1979) also
> became instant punk classics. After The Clash split, a tireless Strummer
> stayed
> center stage with a variety of projects, dabbling in acting and writing
music
> for films.
>
> More recently, Strummer toured with a new band, the Mescaleros, and played
a
> benefit concert with Mick Jones in November, reuniting with his partner in
> punk
> for the first time in nearly 20 years.
>
> At the time of his death, Strummer was collaborating with U2's Bono and
Dave
> Stewart, formerly of the Eurythmics, on an AIDS awareness track.
>
> "The Clash are to be inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame next
year
> and
> there was hope that there would be a reunion and a tour...this must be
> especially sad for their fans," Gilbert said.
>
> His death is a double blow for punk fans still mourning the fatal drug
> overdose
> in June of singer Dee Dee Ramone from legendary American band the Ramones.
>
> Strummer is survived by his wife, two daughters and one stepdaughter.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From CobbCoStudioArts  Mon Dec 23 17:29:05 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 14:29:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
Message-ID: <20021223222905.5E1C83CB3@sitemail.everyone.net>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
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From JforJames  Mon Dec 23 17:48:57 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 17:48:57 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
Message-ID: <35.31a20d28.2b38ecd9@aol.com>

A few stray thoughts related to this subject before I get
away from the computer for a couple of days...

Often in a poetry workshop one is advised to 
drop the first few lines of the poem. As if the
writer was only raising the curtain, or clearing
his/her throat, before the "real poem" began. 
This is, I'm sure, is good advice at times...but
it may also be a symptom of our times: Are we 
too impatient? Must all poems get down to 
business from the git-go? Are they mind-sex
without the foreplay?

It seems the fashion of ending poems has 
swung away from the "ring of finality." More poets
are being advised to leave their poems more open-ended
and unresolved. Not only should the box not click
shut but some would suggest that the lid be removed
from its hinges and thrown away.
 
When we speak of memorable lines I think the bias is toward
the loud, the flashy or extravagant...and yet there 
are many memorable lines of poetry that are quiet, that 
work their magic with a few brushstrokes or with subtle
undertones. This too may be hard for poets of this age 
to accept. We crave those high-concept visuals
and Karma-Sutric syntax. 

I'd like to believe the best lines of a poem are generated
naturally within the process of writing the poem, as Henry
seemed to suggest, but I'm not so sure, sometimes
the best lines crop up unexpectedly and change
the entire landscape of the poem....as Lu Ji noted 
back in the second century--

The best line is a towering crag.
    It won't be woven into an ordinary song.
    The mind can't find a match for it
    but casts about, unwilling to give up.

Finnegan




From bobgrumman  Mon Dec 23 19:35:14 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 19:35:14 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
References: <20021223194133.62C7D3B6C@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <004501c2aae4$53c24060$c477fea9@j1c1k6>

> Bob G.,
>
> I agree with you too.  But, not ALL poems are memorable.  The "Hooks and
punchlines" are more appropriate for stand-up comedians than for poets.
> This is not to say poets cannot be humorous.  Some "punchlines" might be
remembered  for their poignacy, rather than humor.
>
> Bob C.
Right, Bob, so I'd say: "I also think that any poem should do something
memorable, it doesn't matter
where--or how."

--Bob G.




From JforJames  Mon Dec 23 20:42:56 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 20:42:56 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mudlark Flash No. 20 (2002)
Message-ID: <14e.193d5096.2b3915a0@aol.com>

Date:    Sun, 22 Dec 2002 21:19:51 -0500
From:    William Slaughter <wrs at UNF.EDU>
Subject: Notice: Mudlark

New and On View: Mudlark Flash No. 20 (2002)

Mall Poem | Francis Raven

Francis Raven wrote these poems, she says, "at two vastly different malls,
the Stanford Mall in Palo Alto and Union Station in St. Louis, in order to
understand the phenomenon of the mall not to mindlessly criticize it."

The mall is open, common and destroyed.
It is our own notion of destruction
manifest,
but it is also our own openness,
our field and food.
Our choices gone crazy,
elegance stripped away,
but this is not necessity either.
It is the wealth of anti-elitists
put to strange use, recreating
an elitism again in their own image.

Every object in the mall
is a great idea
metastasized.

                       from "Union Station"

Spread the word. Far and wide,

William Slaughter
_________________
MUDLARK
An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics
Never in and never out of print...
E-mail: mudlark at unf.edu
URL: http://www.unf.edu/mudlark



From marcus  Tue Dec 24 07:37:41 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 07:37:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
In-Reply-To: <004501c2aae4$53c24060$c477fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <3E080EC5.13586.230A91@localhost>

> --Bob G.
> Right, Bob, so I'd say: "I also think that any poem should do something
> memorable, it doesn't matter
> where--or how."

Incite to murder or suicide?  Inflame to lynching?  Are you really 
saying "it doesn't matter" or is there a parameter within which you 
say "This is poetry" and "that is not poetry"?


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From bobgrumman  Tue Dec 24 08:12:27 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 08:12:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
References: <3E080EC5.13586.230A91@localhost>
Message-ID: <006501c2ab4e$1c656100$8abdfea9@j1c1k6>

> > --Bob G.
> > Right, Bob, so I'd say: "I also think that any poem should do something
> > memorable, it doesn't matter
> > where--or how."
>
>I Incite to murder or suicide?  Inflame to lynching?
> Are you really
> saying "it doesn't matter" or is there a parameter within which you
> say "This is poetry" and "that is not poetry"?

> Marcus Bales

Learn to read, Marcus.  I did not say a poem has ONLY the responsibility of
doing something memorable.  More I won't say because I find it tedious to
discuss things with someone so clearly out to trip up those he for some
reason is bothered by.

--Bob G.




From marcus  Tue Dec 24 09:14:11 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 09:14:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
In-Reply-To: <006501c2ab4e$1c656100$8abdfea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <3E082563.2668.7B66E9@localhost>

> > > --Bob G.
> > > Right, Bob, so I'd say: "I also think that any poem should do something
> > > memorable, it doesn't matter
> > > where--or how."

Marcus:
> >I Incite to murder or suicide?  Inflame to lynching?
> > Are you really
> > saying "it doesn't matter" or is there a parameter within which you
> > say "This is poetry" and "that is not poetry"?

Bob G 
> Learn to read, Marcus. <<

Learn to discuss things without ad hominem attacks, Bob.  Or, perhaps 
I should just say "Learn to write".  You clearly can't say what you 
mean, and you apparently do not mean what you say.

Bob G:
> I did not say a poem has ONLY the responsibility of
> doing something memorable.<<

What does "only" have to do with it?  The bit that is objectionable 
is "it doesn't matter where or how" -- THAT's the part that makes me 
ask, well, then, what about inciting murder or riot or inflaming to 
lynchings?  If it doesn't matter where or how then you are explicitly 
approving of poems that incite to murder and inflame to lynchings. 

If you don't approve of poems that do such things then, of course, 
it's not at all true that "it doesn't matter where or how" -- it does 
matter where or how, and saying it doesn't matter and yet that it 
does is just the sort of sloppy contradiction you so frequently 
commit.  

So, Bob -- is it or is it not the case, in your view, that "it 
doesn't matter where or how"?


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From Henry_Gould  Tue Dec 24 09:24:27 2002
From: Henry_Gould (Henry Gould)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 09:24:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] poem from "Forth of July" (long)
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021224091734.00abc2e0@postoffice.brown.edu>


Happy Holidays


VI


Giants in the Earth







The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the
Sons of God came in too the daughters of men, and they bored children to
them.  These were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown.

   Genesis 6.iv


*


At this Henry burst out laughing. . . No, a schoolteacher he could never
be, he said; he had other things to think of; back east in Minnesota
somewhere, a girl was straying about looking for him; if he could only find
her, he too would be needing a teacher, by and by!. . . .

O.E. Rolvaag, Giants in the Earth












         Doom   doom
         ring the bronze
         bells  the gongs
         in my head  boom

         boom   droning
         solemn   the double-
         bass in the bowels
         slow   ululating

         a symphony
         of Henryk
         Gorecki
         maybe

         slowly building
         rising out of
         silence   move
         moving   welding

         the iron below
         toward one
         woman's
         rising solo

         ascent from hell
         or the center
         of the earth
         axis   deep

         wheel  O
         fashion me
         a copper penny
         Queequeg or

         one iron
         harpoon
         for soon
         I swoon

         a posthumous
         mote or speck
         of dust   black
         coal   or mus-

         tard yellow
         grain of wheat
         or   taconite
         that blew

         across blue
         Superior where
         Grandfather
         Ravlin saw

         his dream-cabin
         go up the pipe
         his little strip
         of hard-won

         Superior lakefront
         property   near
         Gooseberry River
         taken by eminent

         domain for the
         mining interests
         taconite the best
         adulterated draw

         for the public good
         magnetized easily
         these metals   see
         once liquefied

         they flow   so quickly
         into   money and
         armor   and see
         how they solidify

         quickly too   in
         the mold   tin
         copper   iron
         silver   gold

         Granddad was
         a giant in the earth
         Grandpa for both
         of us  (cousin

         Julie and me)
         an engineer   builder
         of grain elevator
         immensity

         from Chicago
         to Saskatchewan
         from Duluth down
         to St. Paul   oh

         he was a mighty man
         who loved flowers
         Italian opera   stares
         (high-cheekboned grin)

         from the old photo
         with a canoe across
         his shoulder   was
         a straight arrow

         into the earth
         yet   I know now
         he was a shadow
         of mothers   fathers

         before him   (as I am
         ghost of a shadow
         too)   they are
         below ground   and

         hum   through me
         tonight   they were
         rooted there together
         forever   before industry

         machine-tooled and
         filed away their
         skills   (shear
         for sheep)   old

         people   of early
         centuries   before
         our own   our
         millennial day

         rooted they were
         now rotted are
         and gone (or
         becoming iron

         ore bed   or coal)
         Grandfather   son
         of pioneers   his
         own cruel

         failure   there
         engineered
         by the shore
         of Superior

         (minor setback
         of a giant ant)
         to byzness bent
         to mend the lack

         alas   we go
         to byzness bent
         (each worker ant
         in Hibbing)   being so

         bent   like an iron rod
         or plumb-bob   shimmering
         mine harmonic clawing
         grease-rings   lodes

         of ether-ore or   midway
         songs from some   inferno
         gutter-tarred guitar tor-
         nada   hey ey

         yo   mid?-way
         calls me
         heard me
         cry   ey hey

         you   prong
         or thread-
         haired
         song

         in-
         to
         (Inu-
         it harp-

         oon for)
         your bright
         stalwart heart
         dolphin   (of iron ore)

         below the ice-
         bound lake under
         the molten volcano
         where the furious

         furnace burns   remains
         from vegetation into
         ash   to coal   to
         diamond   under the plains

         under the prairie sod
         scratched   penciled in
         head-down   pin-
         sized node ro-

         tating down
         in a tail-
         spin mole-
         motion

         a grain
         seed-
         bed
         in

         blood or
         rusted
         bled-
         for

         door from
         Macchu
         Picchu
         some

         doom-
         door
         our
         m-

         e
         t
         a
         l

         h
         e
         l
         l

         f
         i
         r
         e-

         s
         t
         a
         r

         *

         between a copper sun
         and the molten   center

         and   (magnetized
         dust-world)
         I rolled
         (tombed)

         graveward   (an-
         onymous   com-
         post-humus   im-
         possible   ant)

         on iron rods
         a gnomon   ore
         plumbline (sure-
         arrowed) plummets

         like a bell-rope
         (a kin-lined
         lean pine
         looped

         through the eye
         of a needle)   past
         rich Lazarus
         (who must stay

         behind)  under a burning
         lake   full of clams   and
         stakes of claims   pan-
         handling   gold-digging

         into the lake below
         the lake   of wrath
         where a bath
         of liquid metal

         stews   and shapes
         emerge   and harden
         solid coinage   golden
         shields   gravity reaps

         its share   as paper
         wings flutter around
         in light circles bound
         tight   legal tender

         and light words follow
         like small candle-
         flames   on a spindle
         of those hollow

         birdbeak-signatures of
         trust   it is the rusted
         roost   of the bees' nest
         after   boom   boom   drove

         the doom-bell through
         the crust of   world
         and the bees' nest
         hurtled too fast

         (with me)   under
         the rising crest of
         nations   colorful
         insignia of war

         flags   powers   dignities
         demands   diplomacies
         insults   crises   lies
         hubris   destinies

         and there   in the lake
         of wrath   the flags
         fought against
         the bees   many took

         up arms   put on
         their armor   battled
         with the nested
         metals   coin

         fought paper   paper
         fought bee   bee
         fought armor   see
         how they swarm over

         the molten lake of fire
         so fluid at the center
         of the earth   there
         the harpoon tore

         through the surface
         shattered the smooth
         flow of war   wrath
         trembles   ripples

         as we fly below
         still descending
         iron rending
         iron   now

         copper ripping
         copper   silver
         acetylene   (your
         sign)   bending

         this curving serpent-
         river into   rivets
         of a mask   spigots
         of blood   the rent

         garment of a face
         of evil   the dragon-
         grimace   stone
         snarl   grace-

         less idol   your
         beast-heart come
         at last   no room
         to run   so soar

         ahead then
         spear of St.
         George   sent
         flung   spun

         along the eye
         of Mars by
         Michael
         (angel

         of war)
         on a lion's
         back   sun's
         knight   your

         shield   played
         like a mirror
         by Elena
         (tripod-

         Pythian
         mistress)
         toward this
         immersed

         immense
         mesmerized
         conclusion   eye-
         opened   once-

         and-future
         fusion-powered
         downward sword
         toward   war

         against   war
         the rude red
         rod a dread
         nimbus or

         limb   root
         or trunk
         sunk
         vor-

         tex-ward
         to stem
         the lamb-
         wrath   word-

         pivot   pilot
         driving still
         into the fell
         centripetal

         flowing at
         the core of
         the flower
         fire-heart

         where a voice
         rose slowly
         dangerously
         a menace

         in her throat
         or tense advance
         of premonition
         or promise   what

         she sang was
         grief   pain
         penned in
         a vice

         for her son
         who was
         sacrifice
         undone

         for proud
         Mars in-
         different
         in coiled

         titanic
         nets of
         Vulcan
         (satanic

         tattoo
         across
         a vast
         slough

         of blind
         inhuman
         insane
         burned

         waste-
         lands of
         degraded
         nations)

         She sings   cued
         cubed   riven
         broken
         Coatlicue

         wrath
         against all
         tall incensed
         wrath

         against men
         and their devices
         women   their figures
         against everyone

         like a she-mule
         Ishmael   brays
         brass   cries
         foul   evil

         prophesies
         doom   doom
         into your room
         of idiot luxuries

         your gross
         feedings of
         Philistines
         her loss

         she sings
         with her heart
         knotted   in last
         of last things

         the voice low
         like waving
         grass in wind
         soughs   sowing

         sowing a
         tiny   grain
         of compassion
         at the roar-

         ing center
         of the earth
         where wrath
         turns   here

         into pain   and
         repentance
         these grains
         seed   one plain

         plain   prairie
         flat   even
         the horizon
         squared   serene

         conjunction
         of a line with
         a plane  (lithe
         melodeon

         inward in
         a crosshaired
         target   herd
         breathing

         together)
         a plumbline
         divined   and
         driven (square

         with the ground
         above) to the core
         of your prayer
         mother   bound

         for the storm-
         wrought crossroad
         with lodestone and
         gyro   into the chasm

         or prism of lost
         sheep with
         a map (earth-
         sundered host)

         down coral rungs
         into the deepest
         region   amethyst
         well   gongs'

         wine-drunk ark
         where you   swell
         from the comb's
         high wall and   mark

         the upward
         curvature
         so sure
         now   gathered

         to flower
         your
         V
         tor

         ?toile
         your toil
         your labor
         the dread bull

         that pulls against
         the yoke   a spoken
         wheel   (unbroken
         yet)   you sensed

         beforehand
         in your hand   before
         your throat began
         to soar   ascend

         now   singer
         in one   calm
         continuum   hum
         him your hymn (her

         shield   for him)
         your sun   your
         sun   a molten
         molting   ore-

         rimmed fire
         rayed to the core
         plum-purpled
         feathered

         sphere-
         eye of
         a dove-
         borne

         dia-
         mond
         sun-
         dial

         I found once
         on my 47th birthday
         near 47th and 5th Ave-
         nue   Wise Men

         Fish Here   the sign read
         inside was   poetry
         arcane reality
         in the dead

         center   of the diamond
         district   where the word-
         coracle swam like David's
         pebble toward the blind

         eye of Goliath   a meteor
         green with Martian
         lichen   swollen
         muscle of Eeyore

         bucking the traces
         breaking the circles'
         dull clanking cymbals
         (emptied of fire   ashes

         images without
         warmth)   blind word
         searing blindered
         hungered trot-

         the-nagging many-
         monied fill-the-studio
         drab cheerio-
         donut ad-agency

         maya ballpark-
         figured centuries of
         open-mouthed aw-
         fully funfilled spark-

         plugged motor-
         caved-in platey-
         tubed inflaty-
         lubricatered

         levity   I'm Sirius
         the dog-star
         here we are
         so mysterious

         lost   in poetry
         the double itself
         a doubly-loony elf
         or   moon-piracy

         endangered species
         of penny   worth a lot
         of Sodom tomorrow
         they say   she's

         your mother-tongue
         muttering across
         the bottom   was
         it a dream?   dream-

         song?   she's black
         as pitcher's mound
         in the fifties   sound
         as a bell-crack

         of a whip-lashed
         neck in the woods
         she's rude   she's the
         rood's own ash-

         laden monkey-jivin
         talk-around-the-block
         southpawed haven-
         maven's back-

         assed donkey-draggin
         fool-kickin brutha-
         lovin bad mutha-
         luckin zigshaggin

         moosejawin daft
         daughter of a
         geezer-spoutin
         oven   (feel that draft?)

         with enough fire
         belly-up to the bar-
         none ranchero
         boy   to wire

         your little planeto
         full of Liberace
         salmonella   see
         until she blow

         sky   hi everybody
         this is earth
         full-mirth
         down dusty

         under the yurt
         where your feet
         hurt   if you meet
         Mort the worst

         dancer in the universe
         so stick with me
         as we dizzy-on up
         to the busy hearse

         settle accounts with
         Melrose the donkey
         (who's got the gilt key
         to the highway)   skunks

         your funeral   if you don't
         (sleepwaking slumberjacks)
         wake the dead   from their
         shacks   blow the trombont

         and play the giddy-up quintet
         you are living stones   each
         dust-ball   a future peach
         on the beach   each pet

         cat   a future loin in the bayou
         O I want to be   in that number
         One   the saints come   march her
         in   Marie the moody Voodoo

         Queen   a-one three two a-
         one   and around again
         blow that blue horn
         mystero sola-

         tedium   tee dosey-doe
         until   they all join in   us
         the crusty chorus   mus-
         tered at last   solo

         miao in unison   one
         catman women do too!
         In the delta   for you-hoo
         and mehoo towit and

         to-woo   to have an to hold
         to love an to cherish
         to dance like a bearish
         together   (once in an old

         while)   while
         the violins   lift
         on air   a swift
         melody   steal now

         steal away   for
         day is dawnin   the old
         sun that delved on
         down earthward   after your

         chilled and frightened
         soul   is comin up again
         and is goin to reign
         in the hearth   your opened

         dove-winged   solidarity
         of living stones   on fire
         with love   and not for hire
         but free   free   free

         free   in equality
         under the high blue
         dome   tomorrow
         we'll have a party

         for the commonwealth
         your conscience   like
         an old salt   sails
         to prove   truth

         nested in the streets
         you step out   day by day
         to find   shining   hey!
         surprise!   it rhymes (sorta)!

         giving and receiving
         justice   tempered with
         understanding   love
         swelling   until truth

         finally rips down walls
         barriers   all the dead-
         manor habits we led
         ourselves in   traps   hells

         the sleep   the torpor
         the fraudulent complacent
         thinking   fat ego-stunt
         maneuvers   the chore

         of time-serving self-slavery
         the tiresome gathering
         of dying minutes   fading
         days   the penury

         of meanness   and the petty
         malice of embodied   nothingness
         here's the zero   at last   a mess
         of poetry   for an age of   silly-

         putty   and money
         so go your way
         into the rod of irony
         (a rose   in the stolen

         dust)   and say
         I ate   the molten
         honey-book   the sun
         planted one day   and

         saw   we were a UNION
         shaded   by the tree of life
         and the paths   of be-a-wolf
         and javelin   were ravelin

         my soul toward   a green
         grail-end   Grendel's
         maw   or Mendelssohn's
         (the neighborhood)   born

         in a dream   and carried
         (in my slumber) like a crown
         of harmless harmony   my own
         community garden   seeded

         by a stone from heaven
         (thrown back in time and
         swung into a burning
         house for Henry

         Fleming   in one stroke
         of courage or   one loafer
         of unleavened bread on fire
         to find   and stoke

         once more)   and the weight
         of this great ball of   St. John's
         Fire   on the mast   massed
         here   against nations' sleight-

         of hand and all the busiest
         bees byznest I could
         find   looping   floored
         switchbacked   breeziest

         thieves' victimizer-machine-
         in-one-box   you could ride
         for a penny   sold
         to the man in the yellow tin

         drumbeat   they will climb
         out of anger toward nationhood
         they will climb out of nationhood
         toward neighborhood they will climb

         out of the neighborhood toward
         Louisville, Kentucky   they will tuck
         their candles and barbarians (look
         I say prophesy) and win an award

         and they will pay for each bees nest
         with a thought for each other and
         each bee and each nest so grand
         Will you topiary with me, Celeste?

         If you must   I must   and if you will
         I will   and if you want   I want
         and if you please   I please   and
         if you say aunt   I say uncle

         and you win   and I win
         and we win   Mid?way-win
         way into   your heart   full of sin
         and sorrow and   lovin

         trees   victories
         because   the chestnut
         is a-flourishing   somewhat
         aflame   let love increase

         because we are
         a party of each other
         and no man is an   (oh bother)
         let love increase   sailor

         because the nations rage
         and they have toy soldiers
         let love increase   and mothers
         remember (this cage

         of somber grief)   because
         the word expresses pain
         which comes again
         tomorrow   let love increase

         and because the truth is
         we must love one another or
         hate poetry and die
         let love increase

         let love increase
         for no reason whatsoever
         because love is forever
         overwhelming our ideas

         of love   let it increase anyway
         even though we are swamped with
         love   and grow so sick of it we be
         like to die   Papa   Papa

         let love increase   because the Pope
         said so   that's a better reason
         than all the others   since
         it's nonsense (I hope)

         and let love increase   because
         it's so redundant that   words fail me
         so   in other words   let
         voles   lease Antarctica

         and let love increase there
         (if love can increase in Antarctica
         think what might happen here!)   oh
         la-de-da!  let it increase here AND there!

         because it will anyway   according
         to the book of honeybees   the bees
         the dead bees   who turned honey
         into sunlight   they're coming

         into their own nest now
         where the golden light stays
         lingering   please
         don't go yet

         little bees   don't die
         don't leave the hive yet
         I've still got a few left-
         over things to say

         and you know I need you
         little furry fellows
         let love increase
         amongst you too (also)

         stick around   honey
         no reason to go
         I love you
         see?

         It's starting to spread
         through eave and evening
         morning after mourning
         out of that honey-head

         down the hill from
         Prospect Terrace
         into the matrix
         of the Glob o'Mundi

         a melted solidarity
         scented with mint
         and taste-tested
         too   (by me!)

         under the sky of
         Providence
         a sense-
         lesson for revolve-

         a-whirled
         immortality-
         teased flea-
         circus hurdy-

         gurdy performers
         and others
         whose
         ears

         harvest
         these words
         somewhere   herders
         of romantic last

         lost sheep (perhaps)
         wanderers or
         stickers-around
         or takers-of-naps

         I know who you are
         and Dollie the Clone
         does too   so soon
         we'll whisper

         nighty-night and goodby
         since I'll be all of 47 tomorrow
         and a diamond in the slough
         is worth two on the fly

         and we're all tied up
         with my lessons
         these sessions
         are now abrupt-

         ly concluded (zzzzzz)
         finally   and
         amen and
         let love in (zzzzzz)

         and   goodnight ladies
         goodnight gents   ladies
         moon   goodnight chickens
         goodnight night   sea (zzzzzz)



                                         5.28.99



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From Henry_Gould  Tue Dec 24 09:37:02 2002
From: Henry_Gould (Henry Gould)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 09:37:02 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: long poem
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20021224093636.00ab8bb0@postoffice.brown.edu>

Sorry it came through twice ! - Henry




From chris  Tue Dec 24 10:09:25 2002
From: chris (Chris Lott)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 06:09:25 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
References: <BA29FB07.5C5D%chryss@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <062701c2ab5e$76815c60$6401a8c0@TRS80>

Chryss Yost <chryss at silcom.com> spake thusly:


> EVERY poetry teacher (or reviewer or editor) should explicitly
> encourage the creation of memorable lines.

Ah, but why stop there? I think every teacher should explicitly encourage
the creation of memorable POEMS. Better yet, make sure all students are
encouraged to create timeless, classic poems. I hear those are the best kind
of all...

c




From ccooley  Tue Dec 24 14:21:42 2002
From: ccooley (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 11:21:42 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] from "Forth of July"
In-Reply-To: <20021224142003.A863A100D4@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <IFEJKAJEJBEOJGHBHOCHIEBHCDAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>

Henry,
How refreshing!  What a joyous and giddy celebration of words!  You've met
the giants and won.

Cris

> From: Henry Gould <Henry_Gould at brown.edu>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] poem from "Forth of July" (long)
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
> --=====================_5307875==_.ALT
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>
>
> Happy Holidays
>
>
> VI
>
>
> Giants in the Earth
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the
> Sons of God came in too the daughters of men, and they bored children to
> them.  These were the mighty men that were of old, the men of renown.
>
>    Genesis 6.iv
>
>
> *
>
>
> At this Henry burst out laughing. . . No, a schoolteacher he could never
> be, he said; he had other things to think of; back east in Minnesota
> somewhere, a girl was straying about looking for him; if he could
> only find
> her, he too would be needing a teacher, by and by!. . . .
>
> O.E. Rolvaag, Giants in the Earth
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>          Doom   doom
>          ring the bronze
>          bells  the gongs
>          in my head  boom
>
>          boom   droning
>          solemn   the double-
>          bass in the bowels
>          slow   ululating
>
>          a symphony
>          of Henryk
>          Gorecki
>          maybe
>
>          slowly building
>          rising out of
>          silence   move
>          moving   welding
>
>          the iron below
>          toward one
>          woman's
>          rising solo
>
>          ascent from hell
>          or the center
>          of the earth
>          axis   deep
>
>          wheel  O
>          fashion me
>          a copper penny
>          Queequeg or
>
>          one iron
>          harpoon
>          for soon
>          I swoon
>
>          a posthumous
>          mote or speck
>          of dust   black
>          coal   or mus-
>
>          tard yellow
>          grain of wheat
>          or   taconite
>          that blew
>
>          across blue
>          Superior where
>          Grandfather
>          Ravlin saw
>
>          his dream-cabin
>          go up the pipe
>          his little strip
>          of hard-won
>
>          Superior lakefront
>          property   near
>          Gooseberry River
>          taken by eminent
>
>          domain for the
>          mining interests
>          taconite the best
>          adulterated draw
>
>          for the public good
>          magnetized easily
>          these metals   see
>          once liquefied
>
>          they flow   so quickly
>          into   money and
>          armor   and see
>          how they solidify
>
>          quickly too   in
>          the mold   tin
>          copper   iron
>          silver   gold
>
>          Granddad was
>          a giant in the earth
>          Grandpa for both
>          of us  (cousin
>
>          Julie and me)
>          an engineer   builder
>          of grain elevator
>          immensity
>
>          from Chicago
>          to Saskatchewan
>          from Duluth down
>          to St. Paul   oh
>
>          he was a mighty man
>          who loved flowers
>          Italian opera   stares
>          (high-cheekboned grin)
>
>          from the old photo
>          with a canoe across
>          his shoulder   was
>          a straight arrow
>
>          into the earth
>          yet   I know now
>          he was a shadow
>          of mothers   fathers
>
>          before him   (as I am
>          ghost of a shadow
>          too)   they are
>          below ground   and
>
>          hum   through me
>          tonight   they were
>          rooted there together
>          forever   before industry
>
>          machine-tooled and
>          filed away their
>          skills   (shear
>          for sheep)   old
>
>          people   of early
>          centuries   before
>          our own   our
>          millennial day
>
>          rooted they were
>          now rotted are
>          and gone (or
>          becoming iron
>
>          ore bed   or coal)
>          Grandfather   son
>          of pioneers   his
>          own cruel
>
>          failure   there
>          engineered
>          by the shore
>          of Superior
>
>          (minor setback
>          of a giant ant)
>          to byzness bent
>          to mend the lack
>
>          alas   we go
>          to byzness bent
>          (each worker ant
>          in Hibbing)   being so
>
>          bent   like an iron rod
>          or plumb-bob   shimmering
>          mine harmonic clawing
>          grease-rings   lodes
>
>          of ether-ore or   midway
>          songs from some   inferno
>          gutter-tarred guitar tor-
>          nada   hey ey
>
>          yo   mid=E9-way
>          calls me
>          heard me
>          cry   ey hey
>
>          you   prong
>          or thread-
>          haired
>          song
>
>          in-
>          to
>          (Inu-
>          it harp-
>
>          oon for)
>          your bright
>          stalwart heart
>          dolphin   (of iron ore)
>
>          below the ice-
>          bound lake under
>          the molten volcano
>          where the furious
>
>          furnace burns   remains
>          from vegetation into
>          ash   to coal   to
>          diamond   under the plains
>
>          under the prairie sod
>          scratched   penciled in
>          head-down   pin-
>          sized node ro-
>
>          tating down
>          in a tail-
>          spin mole-
>          motion
>
>          a grain
>          seed-
>          bed
>          in
>
>          blood or
>          rusted
>          bled-
>          for
>
>          door from
>          Macchu
>          Picchu
>          some
>
>          doom-
>          door
>          our
>          m-
>
>          e
>          t
>          a
>          l
>
>          h
>          e
>          l
>          l
>
>          f
>          i
>          r
>          e-
>
>          s
>          t
>          a
>          r
>
>          *
>
>          between a copper sun
>          and the molten   center
>
>          and   (magnetized
>          dust-world)
>          I rolled
>          (tombed)
>
>          graveward   (an-
>          onymous   com-
>          post-humus   im-
>          possible   ant)
>
>          on iron rods
>          a gnomon   ore
>          plumbline (sure-
>          arrowed) plummets
>
>          like a bell-rope
>          (a kin-lined
>          lean pine
>          looped
>
>          through the eye
>          of a needle)   past
>          rich Lazarus
>          (who must stay
>
>          behind)  under a burning
>          lake   full of clams   and
>          stakes of claims   pan-
>          handling   gold-digging
>
>          into the lake below
>          the lake   of wrath
>          where a bath
>          of liquid metal
>
>          stews   and shapes
>          emerge   and harden
>          solid coinage   golden
>          shields   gravity reaps
>
>          its share   as paper
>          wings flutter around
>          in light circles bound
>          tight   legal tender
>
>          and light words follow
>          like small candle-
>          flames   on a spindle
>          of those hollow
>
>          birdbeak-signatures of
>          trust   it is the rusted
>          roost   of the bees' nest
>          after   boom   boom   drove
>
>          the doom-bell through
>          the crust of   world
>          and the bees' nest
>          hurtled too fast
>
>          (with me)   under
>          the rising crest of
>          nations   colorful
>          insignia of war
>
>          flags   powers   dignities
>          demands   diplomacies
>          insults   crises   lies
>          hubris   destinies
>
>          and there   in the lake
>          of wrath   the flags
>          fought against
>          the bees   many took
>
>          up arms   put on
>          their armor   battled
>          with the nested
>          metals   coin
>
>          fought paper   paper
>          fought bee   bee
>          fought armor   see
>          how they swarm over
>
>          the molten lake of fire
>          so fluid at the center
>          of the earth   there
>          the harpoon tore
>
>          through the surface
>          shattered the smooth
>          flow of war   wrath
>          trembles   ripples
>
>          as we fly below
>          still descending
>          iron rending
>          iron   now
>
>          copper ripping
>          copper   silver
>          acetylene   (your
>          sign)   bending
>
>          this curving serpent-
>          river into   rivets
>          of a mask   spigots
>          of blood   the rent
>
>          garment of a face
>          of evil   the dragon-
>          grimace   stone
>          snarl   grace-
>
>          less idol   your
>          beast-heart come
>          at last   no room
>          to run   so soar
>
>          ahead then
>          spear of St.
>          George   sent
>          flung   spun
>
>          along the eye
>          of Mars by
>          Michael
>          (angel
>
>          of war)
>          on a lion's
>          back   sun's
>          knight   your
>
>          shield   played
>          like a mirror
>          by Elena
>          (tripod-
>
>          Pythian
>          mistress)
>          toward this
>          immersed
>
>          immense
>          mesmerized
>          conclusion   eye-
>          opened   once-
>
>          and-future
>          fusion-powered
>          downward sword
>          toward   war
>
>          against   war
>          the rude red
>          rod a dread
>          nimbus or
>
>          limb   root
>          or trunk
>          sunk
>          vor-
>
>          tex-ward
>          to stem
>          the lamb-
>          wrath   word-
>
>          pivot   pilot
>          driving still
>          into the fell
>          centripetal
>
>          flowing at
>          the core of
>          the flower
>          fire-heart
>
>          where a voice
>          rose slowly
>          dangerously
>          a menace
>
>          in her throat
>          or tense advance
>          of premonition
>          or promise   what
>
>          she sang was
>          grief   pain
>          penned in
>          a vice
>
>          for her son
>          who was
>          sacrifice
>          undone
>
>          for proud
>          Mars in-
>          different
>          in coiled
>
>          titanic
>          nets of
>          Vulcan
>          (satanic
>
>          tattoo
>          across
>          a vast
>          slough
>
>          of blind
>          inhuman
>          insane
>          burned
>
>          waste-
>          lands of
>          degraded
>          nations)
>
>          She sings   cued
>          cubed   riven
>          broken
>          Coatlicue
>
>          wrath
>          against all
>          tall incensed
>          wrath
>
>          against men
>          and their devices
>          women   their figures
>          against everyone
>
>          like a she-mule
>          Ishmael   brays
>          brass   cries
>          foul   evil
>
>          prophesies
>          doom   doom
>          into your room
>          of idiot luxuries
>
>          your gross
>          feedings of
>          Philistines
>          her loss
>
>          she sings
>          with her heart
>          knotted   in last
>          of last things
>
>          the voice low
>          like waving
>          grass in wind
>          soughs   sowing
>
>          sowing a
>          tiny   grain
>          of compassion
>          at the roar-
>
>          ing center
>          of the earth
>          where wrath
>          turns   here
>
>          into pain   and
>          repentance
>          these grains
>          seed   one plain
>
>          plain   prairie
>          flat   even
>          the horizon
>          squared   serene
>
>          conjunction
>          of a line with
>          a plane  (lithe
>          melodeon
>
>          inward in
>          a crosshaired
>          target   herd
>          breathing
>
>          together)
>          a plumbline
>          divined   and
>          driven (square
>
>          with the ground
>          above) to the core
>          of your prayer
>          mother   bound
>
>          for the storm-
>          wrought crossroad
>          with lodestone and
>          gyro   into the chasm
>
>          or prism of lost
>          sheep with
>          a map (earth-
>          sundered host)
>
>          down coral rungs
>          into the deepest
>          region   amethyst
>          well   gongs'
>
>          wine-drunk ark
>          where you   swell
>          from the comb's
>          high wall and   mark
>
>          the upward
>          curvature
>          so sure
>          now   gathered
>
>          to flower
>          your
>          V
>          tor
>
>          =E9toile
>          your toil
>          your labor
>          the dread bull
>
>          that pulls against
>          the yoke   a spoken
>          wheel   (unbroken
>          yet)   you sensed
>
>          beforehand
>          in your hand   before
>          your throat began
>          to soar   ascend
>
>          now   singer
>          in one   calm
>          continuum   hum
>          him your hymn (her
>
>          shield   for him)
>          your sun   your
>          sun   a molten
>          molting   ore-
>
>          rimmed fire
>          rayed to the core
>          plum-purpled
>          feathered
>
>          sphere-
>          eye of
>          a dove-
>          borne
>
>          dia-
>          mond
>          sun-
>          dial
>
>          I found once
>          on my 47th birthday
>          near 47th and 5th Ave-
>          nue   Wise Men
>
>          Fish Here   the sign read
>          inside was   poetry
>          arcane reality
>          in the dead
>
>          center   of the diamond
>          district   where the word-
>          coracle swam like David's
>          pebble toward the blind
>
>          eye of Goliath   a meteor
>          green with Martian
>          lichen   swollen
>          muscle of Eeyore
>
>          bucking the traces
>          breaking the circles'
>          dull clanking cymbals
>          (emptied of fire   ashes
>
>          images without
>          warmth)   blind word
>          searing blindered
>          hungered trot-
>
>          the-nagging many-
>          monied fill-the-studio
>          drab cheerio-
>          donut ad-agency
>
>          maya ballpark-
>          figured centuries of
>          open-mouthed aw-
>          fully funfilled spark-
>
>          plugged motor-
>          caved-in platey-
>          tubed inflaty-
>          lubricatered
>
>          levity   I'm Sirius
>          the dog-star
>          here we are
>          so mysterious
>
>          lost   in poetry
>          the double itself
>          a doubly-loony elf
>          or   moon-piracy
>
>          endangered species
>          of penny   worth a lot
>          of Sodom tomorrow
>          they say   she's
>
>          your mother-tongue
>          muttering across
>          the bottom   was
>          it a dream?   dream-
>
>          song?   she's black
>          as pitcher's mound
>          in the fifties   sound
>          as a bell-crack
>
>          of a whip-lashed
>          neck in the woods
>          she's rude   she's the
>          rood's own ash-
>
>          laden monkey-jivin
>          talk-around-the-block
>          southpawed haven-
>          maven's back-
>
>          assed donkey-draggin
>          fool-kickin brutha-
>          lovin bad mutha-
>          luckin zigshaggin
>
>          moosejawin daft
>          daughter of a
>          geezer-spoutin
>          oven   (feel that draft?)
>
>          with enough fire
>          belly-up to the bar-
>          none ranchero
>          boy   to wire
>
>          your little planeto
>          full of Liberace
>          salmonella   see
>          until she blow
>
>          sky   hi everybody
>          this is earth
>          full-mirth
>          down dusty
>
>          under the yurt
>          where your feet
>          hurt   if you meet
>          Mort the worst
>
>          dancer in the universe
>          so stick with me
>          as we dizzy-on up
>          to the busy hearse
>
>          settle accounts with
>          Melrose the donkey
>          (who's got the gilt key
>          to the highway)   skunks
>
>          your funeral   if you don't
>          (sleepwaking slumberjacks)
>          wake the dead   from their
>          shacks   blow the trombont
>
>          and play the giddy-up quintet
>          you are living stones   each
>          dust-ball   a future peach
>          on the beach   each pet
>
>          cat   a future loin in the bayou
>          O I want to be   in that number
>          One   the saints come   march her
>          in   Marie the moody Voodoo
>
>          Queen   a-one three two a-
>          one   and around again
>          blow that blue horn
>          mystero sola-
>
>          tedium   tee dosey-doe
>          until   they all join in   us
>          the crusty chorus   mus-
>          tered at last   solo
>
>          miao in unison   one
>          catman women do too!
>          In the delta   for you-hoo
>          and mehoo towit and
>
>          to-woo   to have an to hold
>          to love an to cherish
>          to dance like a bearish
>          together   (once in an old
>
>          while)   while
>          the violins   lift
>          on air   a swift
>          melody   steal now
>
>          steal away   for
>          day is dawnin   the old
>          sun that delved on
>          down earthward   after your
>
>          chilled and frightened
>          soul   is comin up again
>          and is goin to reign
>          in the hearth   your opened
>
>          dove-winged   solidarity
>          of living stones   on fire
>          with love   and not for hire
>          but free   free   free
>
>          free   in equality
>          under the high blue
>          dome   tomorrow
>          we'll have a party
>
>          for the commonwealth
>          your conscience   like
>          an old salt   sails
>          to prove   truth
>
>          nested in the streets
>          you step out   day by day
>          to find   shining   hey!
>          surprise!   it rhymes (sorta)!
>
>          giving and receiving
>          justice   tempered with
>          understanding   love
>          swelling   until truth
>
>          finally rips down walls
>          barriers   all the dead-
>          manor habits we led
>          ourselves in   traps   hells
>
>          the sleep   the torpor
>          the fraudulent complacent
>          thinking   fat ego-stunt
>          maneuvers   the chore
>
>          of time-serving self-slavery
>          the tiresome gathering
>          of dying minutes   fading
>          days   the penury
>
>          of meanness   and the petty
>          malice of embodied   nothingness
>          here's the zero   at last   a mess
>          of poetry   for an age of   silly-
>
>          putty   and money
>          so go your way
>          into the rod of irony
>          (a rose   in the stolen
>
>          dust)   and say
>          I ate   the molten
>          honey-book   the sun
>          planted one day   and
>
>          saw   we were a UNION
>          shaded   by the tree of life
>          and the paths   of be-a-wolf
>          and javelin   were ravelin
>
>          my soul toward   a green
>          grail-end   Grendel's
>          maw   or Mendelssohn's
>          (the neighborhood)   born
>
>          in a dream   and carried
>          (in my slumber) like a crown
>          of harmless harmony   my own
>          community garden   seeded
>
>          by a stone from heaven
>          (thrown back in time and
>          swung into a burning
>          house for Henry
>
>          Fleming   in one stroke
>          of courage or   one loafer
>          of unleavened bread on fire
>          to find   and stoke
>
>          once more)   and the weight
>          of this great ball of   St. John's
>          Fire   on the mast   massed
>          here   against nations' sleight-
>
>          of hand and all the busiest
>          bees byznest I could
>          find   looping   floored
>          switchbacked   breeziest
>
>          thieves' victimizer-machine-
>          in-one-box   you could ride
>          for a penny   sold
>          to the man in the yellow tin
>
>          drumbeat   they will climb
>          out of anger toward nationhood
>          they will climb out of nationhood
>          toward neighborhood they will climb
>
>          out of the neighborhood toward
>          Louisville, Kentucky   they will tuck
>          their candles and barbarians (look
>          I say prophesy) and win an award
>
>          and they will pay for each bees nest
>          with a thought for each other and
>          each bee and each nest so grand
>          Will you topiary with me, Celeste?
>
>          If you must   I must   and if you will
>          I will   and if you want   I want
>          and if you please   I please   and
>          if you say aunt   I say uncle
>
>          and you win   and I win
>          and we win   Mid=E9way-win
>          way into   your heart   full of sin
>          and sorrow and   lovin
>
>          trees   victories
>          because   the chestnut
>          is a-flourishing   somewhat
>          aflame   let love increase
>
>          because we are
>          a party of each other
>          and no man is an   (oh bother)
>          let love increase   sailor
>
>          because the nations rage
>          and they have toy soldiers
>          let love increase   and mothers
>          remember (this cage
>
>          of somber grief)   because
>          the word expresses pain
>          which comes again
>          tomorrow   let love increase
>
>          and because the truth is
>          we must love one another or
>          hate poetry and die
>          let love increase
>
>          let love increase
>          for no reason whatsoever
>          because love is forever
>          overwhelming our ideas
>
>          of love   let it increase anyway
>          even though we are swamped with
>          love   and grow so sick of it we be
>          like to die   Papa   Papa
>
>          let love increase   because the Pope
>          said so   that's a better reason
>          than all the others   since
>          it's nonsense (I hope)
>
>          and let love increase   because
>          it's so redundant that   words fail me
>          so   in other words   let
>          voles   lease Antarctica
>
>          and let love increase there
>          (if love can increase in Antarctica
>          think what might happen here!)   oh
>          la-de-da!  let it increase here AND there!
>
>          because it will anyway   according
>          to the book of honeybees   the bees
>          the dead bees   who turned honey
>          into sunlight   they're coming
>
>          into their own nest now
>          where the golden light stays
>          lingering   please
>          don't go yet
>
>          little bees   don't die
>          don't leave the hive yet
>          I've still got a few left-
>          over things to say
>
>          and you know I need you
>          little furry fellows
>          let love increase
>          amongst you too (also)
>
>          stick around   honey
>          no reason to go
>          I love you
>          see?
>
>          It's starting to spread
>          through eave and evening
>          morning after mourning
>          out of that honey-head
>
>          down the hill from
>          Prospect Terrace
>          into the matrix
>          of the Glob o'Mundi
>
>          a melted solidarity
>          scented with mint
>          and taste-tested
>          too   (by me!)
>
>          under the sky of
>          Providence
>          a sense-
>          lesson for revolve-
>
>          a-whirled
>          immortality-
>          teased flea-
>          circus hurdy-
>
>          gurdy performers
>          and others
>          whose
>          ears
>
>          harvest
>          these words
>          somewhere   herders
>          of romantic last
>
>          lost sheep (perhaps)
>          wanderers or
>          stickers-around
>          or takers-of-naps
>
>          I know who you are
>          and Dollie the Clone
>          does too   so soon
>          we'll whisper
>
>          nighty-night and goodby
>          since I'll be all of 47 tomorrow
>          and a diamond in the slough
>          is worth two on the fly
>
>          and we're all tied up
>          with my lessons
>          these sessions
>          are now abrupt-
>
>          ly concluded (zzzzzz)
>          finally   and
>          amen and
>          let love in (zzzzzz)
>
>          and   goodnight ladies
>          goodnight gents   ladies
>          moon   goodnight chickens
>          goodnight night   sea (zzzzzz)
>
>
>
>                                          5.28.99






From smith948  Wed Dec 25 16:16:21 2002
From: smith948 (ellen smith)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 16:16:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
In-Reply-To: <062701c2ab5e$76815c60$6401a8c0@TRS80>
References: <BA29FB07.5C5D%chryss@silcom.com>
 <062701c2ab5e$76815c60$6401a8c0@TRS80>
Message-ID: <a05100301ba2fd03717a8@[165.190.124.251]>

But the funny thing is some of the worst poems I've ever read came 
from the intention of creating "timeless, classic poems."  That 
intention, in my opinion, is the kiss of death for poetry.  Get 
inside the poem, be there, have the full experience of writing the 
poem...and the memorable lines and timelessness may result.
ellen s.


>Chryss Yost <chryss at silcom.com> spake thusly:
>
>
>>  EVERY poetry teacher (or reviewer or editor) should explicitly
>>  encourage the creation of memorable lines.
>
>Ah, but why stop there? I think every teacher should explicitly encourage
>the creation of memorable POEMS. Better yet, make sure all students are
>encouraged to create timeless, classic poems. I hear those are the best kind
>of all...
>
>c
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


-- 



From tadrichards  Wed Dec 25 15:37:57 2002
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 15:37:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
References: <BA29FB07.5C5D%chryss@silcom.com> <062701c2ab5e$76815c60$6401a8c0@TRS80> <a05100301ba2fd03717a8@[165.190.124.251]>
Message-ID: <003301c2ac55$82029480$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

But we do know that timeless, classic poems take on themes that matter.
Keats knew he was swinging for the fences with that urn.


----- Original Message -----
From: "ellen smith" <smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2002 4:16 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines


> But the funny thing is some of the worst poems I've ever read came
> from the intention of creating "timeless, classic poems."  That
> intention, in my opinion, is the kiss of death for poetry.  Get
> inside the poem, be there, have the full experience of writing the
> poem...and the memorable lines and timelessness may result.
> ellen s.
>
>
> >Chryss Yost <chryss at silcom.com> spake thusly:
> >
> >
> >>  EVERY poetry teacher (or reviewer or editor) should explicitly
> >>  encourage the creation of memorable lines.
> >
> >Ah, but why stop there? I think every teacher should explicitly encourage
> >the creation of memorable POEMS. Better yet, make sure all students are
> >encouraged to create timeless, classic poems. I hear those are the best
kind
> >of all...
> >
> >c
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> --
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From smith948  Wed Dec 25 19:41:12 2002
From: smith948 (ellen smith)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 19:41:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
In-Reply-To: <003301c2ac55$82029480$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
References: <BA29FB07.5C5D%chryss@silcom.com>
 <062701c2ab5e$76815c60$6401a8c0@TRS80>
 <a05100301ba2fd03717a8@[165.190.124.251]>
 <003301c2ac55$82029480$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <a05100300ba2fffa75db5@[165.190.124.251]>

OK, but even if we do go into the baseball metaphor...all the 
swinging for the fences in the world won't do it...I was always 
swinging for the fences in softball and hardball...something else 
needs to transpire for the homerun to occur (swinging for the fences 
all by itself most usually, in my experience anyway, results in 
pop-ups).  We will have to ask Barry Bonds about this, maybe.  Keats, 
I don't believe, would have much to say about batting...given his 
condition, he would have needed a homerun or a designated baserunner.
	Frustrated baseball player as I am,
	ellen s.


>But we do know that timeless, classic poems take on themes that matter.
>Keats knew he was swinging for the fences with that urn.
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "ellen smith" <smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2002 4:16 PM
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
>
>
>>  But the funny thing is some of the worst poems I've ever read came
>>  from the intention of creating "timeless, classic poems."  That
>>  intention, in my opinion, is the kiss of death for poetry.  Get
>>  inside the poem, be there, have the full experience of writing the
>>  poem...and the memorable lines and timelessness may result.
>>  ellen s.
>>
>>
>>  >Chryss Yost <chryss at silcom.com> spake thusly:
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >>  EVERY poetry teacher (or reviewer or editor) should explicitly
>>  >>  encourage the creation of memorable lines.
>>  >
>>  >Ah, but why stop there? I think every teacher should explicitly encourage
>>  >the creation of memorable POEMS. Better yet, make sure all students are
>>  >encouraged to create timeless, classic poems. I hear those are the best
>kind
>>  >of all...
>>  >
>>  >c
>>  >
>>  >_______________________________________________
>>  >New-Poetry mailing list
>>  >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>  >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>>  --
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  New-Poetry mailing list
>>  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


-- 



From tadrichards  Wed Dec 25 19:04:01 2002
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 19:04:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
References: <BA29FB07.5C5D%chryss@silcom.com> <062701c2ab5e$76815c60$6401a8c0@TRS80> <a05100301ba2fd03717a8@[165.190.124.251]> <003301c2ac55$82029480$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <a05100300ba2fffa75db5@[165.190.124.251]>
Message-ID: <005e01c2ac72$4bd673f0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Ellen -- I didn't mean to suggest that that was enough....it's necessary but
not sufficient. You can't set out to write a timeless, classic poem, but
unless you start out with a certain amount of ambition, and the courage to
attempt something larger than life, you're not going to get there. You
probably won't get there anyway, but...

Keats was going for Dior originals, and he knew he wasn't going to find them
by shopping at the mall.


----- Original Message -----
From: "ellen smith" <smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2002 7:41 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines


> OK, but even if we do go into the baseball metaphor...all the
> swinging for the fences in the world won't do it...I was always
> swinging for the fences in softball and hardball...something else
> needs to transpire for the homerun to occur (swinging for the fences
> all by itself most usually, in my experience anyway, results in
> pop-ups).  We will have to ask Barry Bonds about this, maybe.  Keats,
> I don't believe, would have much to say about batting...given his
> condition, he would have needed a homerun or a designated baserunner.
> Frustrated baseball player as I am,
> ellen s.
>
>
> >But we do know that timeless, classic poems take on themes that matter.
> >Keats knew he was swinging for the fences with that urn.
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "ellen smith" <smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu>
> >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2002 4:16 PM
> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
> >
> >
> >>  But the funny thing is some of the worst poems I've ever read came
> >>  from the intention of creating "timeless, classic poems."  That
> >>  intention, in my opinion, is the kiss of death for poetry.  Get
> >>  inside the poem, be there, have the full experience of writing the
> >>  poem...and the memorable lines and timelessness may result.
> >>  ellen s.
> >>
> >>
> >>  >Chryss Yost <chryss at silcom.com> spake thusly:
> >>  >
> >>  >
> >>  >>  EVERY poetry teacher (or reviewer or editor) should explicitly
> >>  >>  encourage the creation of memorable lines.
> >>  >
> >>  >Ah, but why stop there? I think every teacher should explicitly
encourage
> >>  >the creation of memorable POEMS. Better yet, make sure all students
are
> >>  >encouraged to create timeless, classic poems. I hear those are the
best
> >kind
> >>  >of all...
> >>  >
> >>  >c
> >>  >
> >>  >_______________________________________________
> >>  >New-Poetry mailing list
> >>  >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >>  >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>
> >>
> >>  --
> >>  _______________________________________________
> >>  New-Poetry mailing list
> >>  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> --
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From luap  Wed Dec 25 21:06:38 2002
From: luap (K. Paul Mallasch)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 21:06:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
In-Reply-To: <005e01c2ac72$4bd673f0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10212252102000.26826-100000@sauron.spinweb.net>

re: getting there -

i think when a poet is able to 'get there' it usually happens w/out trying
too hard. sure the polish still needs to be applied (the craft part), but
the rough gem just sort of happens. 

personally, when i try to create it too artificially i think sometimes it
comes out feeling artificial - gilded instead of golden.

-kpaul
mallasch.com/mug/

On Wed, 25 Dec 2002, TheOldMole wrote:

> Ellen -- I didn't mean to suggest that that was enough....it's necessary but
> not sufficient. You can't set out to write a timeless, classic poem, but
> unless you start out with a certain amount of ambition, and the courage to
> attempt something larger than life, you're not going to get there. You
> probably won't get there anyway, but...
> 
> Keats was going for Dior originals, and he knew he wasn't going to find them
> by shopping at the mall.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "ellen smith" <smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2002 7:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
> 
> 
> > OK, but even if we do go into the baseball metaphor...all the
> > swinging for the fences in the world won't do it...I was always
> > swinging for the fences in softball and hardball...something else
> > needs to transpire for the homerun to occur (swinging for the fences
> > all by itself most usually, in my experience anyway, results in
> > pop-ups).  We will have to ask Barry Bonds about this, maybe.  Keats,
> > I don't believe, would have much to say about batting...given his
> > condition, he would have needed a homerun or a designated baserunner.
> > Frustrated baseball player as I am,
> > ellen s.
> >
> >
> > >But we do know that timeless, classic poems take on themes that matter.
> > >Keats knew he was swinging for the fences with that urn.
> > >
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "ellen smith" <smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu>
> > >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > >Sent: Wednesday, December 25, 2002 4:16 PM
> > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
> > >
> > >
> > >>  But the funny thing is some of the worst poems I've ever read came
> > >>  from the intention of creating "timeless, classic poems."  That
> > >>  intention, in my opinion, is the kiss of death for poetry.  Get
> > >>  inside the poem, be there, have the full experience of writing the
> > >>  poem...and the memorable lines and timelessness may result.
> > >>  ellen s.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>  >Chryss Yost <chryss at silcom.com> spake thusly:
> > >>  >
> > >>  >
> > >>  >>  EVERY poetry teacher (or reviewer or editor) should explicitly
> > >>  >>  encourage the creation of memorable lines.
> > >>  >
> > >>  >Ah, but why stop there? I think every teacher should explicitly
> encourage
> > >>  >the creation of memorable POEMS. Better yet, make sure all students
> are
> > >>  >encouraged to create timeless, classic poems. I hear those are the
> best
> > >kind
> > >>  >of all...
> > >>  >
> > >>  >c
> > >>  >
> > >>  >_______________________________________________
> > >>  >New-Poetry mailing list
> > >>  >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > >>  >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>  --
> > >>  _______________________________________________
> > >>  New-Poetry mailing list
> > >>  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > >>  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >New-Poetry mailing list
> > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
> > --
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From bobgrumman  Wed Dec 25 22:11:43 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 22:11:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
References: <BA29FB07.5C5D%chryss@silcom.com><062701c2ab5e$76815c60$6401a8c0@TRS80><a05100301ba2fd03717a8@[165.190.124.251]><003301c2ac55$82029480$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2> <a05100300ba2fffa75db5@[165.190.124.251]>
Message-ID: <001001c2ac8c$84e82340$6363fea9@j1c1k6>

 Keats,
> I don't believe, would have much to say about batting...given his
> condition,

Actually, Keats was quite robust until his final few years.  He would have
been a singles hitter, though.

--Bob G.





From aprentiss  Thu Dec 26 00:41:32 2002
From: aprentiss (Prentiss, Amber)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 00:41:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1168 - 12 msgs
Message-ID: <F376D501A0BC2B4B82EF1B92BE58D220071A33@agnes.ascnt.edu>

JforJames said:
"It seems the fashion of ending poems has 
swung away from the "ring of finality." More poets
are being advised to leave their poems more open-ended
and unresolved. Not only should the box not click
shut but some would suggest that the lid be removed
from its hinges and thrown away."

Well, that is true. And sometimes finality is good. And sometimes a lack of
resolution is good. And sometimes lack of resolution gets on my last damn
nerves. When I talk, I tend to ramble on and sally forth and blah blah blah,
but it always ends in a mumble. I have the excuse of usually talking
extemporaneously, but poets do not have the same excuse! Sometimes the lack
of finality works as the foundation for a bridge that the reader can finish
building, and sometimes it's like going to the movies and having the picture
go out in the middle--hey, I was watching that!

An unrelated question:
What do people teach when they teach poetry, anyway?

-Amber
___________
Message: 7
From: JforJames at aol.com
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 17:48:57 EST
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu

A few stray thoughts related to this subject before I get
away from the computer for a couple of days...

Often in a poetry workshop one is advised to 
drop the first few lines of the poem. As if the
writer was only raising the curtain, or clearing
his/her throat, before the "real poem" began. 
This is, I'm sure, is good advice at times...but
it may also be a symptom of our times: Are we 
too impatient? Must all poems get down to 
business from the git-go? Are they mind-sex
without the foreplay?

It seems the fashion of ending poems has 
swung away from the "ring of finality." More poets
are being advised to leave their poems more open-ended
and unresolved. Not only should the box not click
shut but some would suggest that the lid be removed
from its hinges and thrown away.
 
When we speak of memorable lines I think the bias is toward
the loud, the flashy or extravagant...and yet there 
are many memorable lines of poetry that are quiet, that 
work their magic with a few brushstrokes or with subtle
undertones. This too may be hard for poets of this age 
to accept. We crave those high-concept visuals
and Karma-Sutric syntax. 

I'd like to believe the best lines of a poem are generated
naturally within the process of writing the poem, as Henry
seemed to suggest, but I'm not so sure, sometimes
the best lines crop up unexpectedly and change
the entire landscape of the poem....as Lu Ji noted 
back in the second century--

The best line is a towering crag.
    It won't be woven into an ordinary song.
    The mind can't find a match for it
    but casts about, unwilling to give up.

Finnegan


--__--__--

Message: 8
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 19:35:14 -0500
Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu

> Bob G.,
>
> I agree with you too.  But, not ALL poems are memorable.  The "Hooks
and
punchlines" are more appropriate for stand-up comedians than for poets.
> This is not to say poets cannot be humorous.  Some "punchlines" might
be
remembered  for their poignacy, rather than humor.
>
> Bob C.
Right, Bob, so I'd say: "I also think that any poem should do something
memorable, it doesn't matter
where--or how."

--Bob G.


--__--__--

Message: 9
From: JforJames at aol.com
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 20:42:56 EST
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mudlark Flash No. 20 (2002)
Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu

Date:    Sun, 22 Dec 2002 21:19:51 -0500
From:    William Slaughter <wrs at UNF.EDU>
Subject: Notice: Mudlark

New and On View: Mudlark Flash No. 20 (2002)

Mall Poem | Francis Raven

Francis Raven wrote these poems, she says, "at two vastly different
malls,
the Stanford Mall in Palo Alto and Union Station in St. Louis, in order
to
understand the phenomenon of the mall not to mindlessly criticize it."

The mall is open, common and destroyed.
It is our own notion of destruction
manifest,
but it is also our own openness,
our field and food.
Our choices gone crazy,
elegance stripped away,
but this is not necessity either.
It is the wealth of anti-elitists
put to strange use, recreating
an elitism again in their own image.

Every object in the mall
is a great idea
metastasized.

                       from "Union Station"

Spread the word. Far and wide,

William Slaughter
_________________
MUDLARK
An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics
Never in and never out of print...
E-mail: mudlark at unf.edu
URL: http://www.unf.edu/mudlark

--__--__--

Message: 10
From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 07:37:41 -0500
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu

> --Bob G.
> Right, Bob, so I'd say: "I also think that any poem should do
something
> memorable, it doesn't matter
> where--or how."

Incite to murder or suicide?  Inflame to lynching?  Are you really 
saying "it doesn't matter" or is there a parameter within which you 
say "This is poetry" and "that is not poetry"?


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com




--__--__--

Message: 11
From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 08:12:27 -0500
Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu

> > --Bob G.
> > Right, Bob, so I'd say: "I also think that any poem should do
something
> > memorable, it doesn't matter
> > where--or how."
>
>I Incite to murder or suicide?  Inflame to lynching?
> Are you really
> saying "it doesn't matter" or is there a parameter within which you
> say "This is poetry" and "that is not poetry"?

> Marcus Bales

Learn to read, Marcus.  I did not say a poem has ONLY the responsibility
of
doing something memorable.  More I won't say because I find it tedious
to
discuss things with someone so clearly out to trip up those he for some
reason is bothered by.

--Bob G.


--__--__--

Message: 12
From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 09:14:11 -0500
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu

> > > --Bob G.
> > > Right, Bob, so I'd say: "I also think that any poem should do
something
> > > memorable, it doesn't matter
> > > where--or how."

Marcus:
> >I Incite to murder or suicide?  Inflame to lynching?
> > Are you really
> > saying "it doesn't matter" or is there a parameter within which you
> > say "This is poetry" and "that is not poetry"?

Bob G 
> Learn to read, Marcus. <<

Learn to discuss things without ad hominem attacks, Bob.  Or, perhaps 
I should just say "Learn to write".  You clearly can't say what you 
mean, and you apparently do not mean what you say.

Bob G:
> I did not say a poem has ONLY the responsibility of
> doing something memorable.<<

What does "only" have to do with it?  The bit that is objectionable 
is "it doesn't matter where or how" -- THAT's the part that makes me 
ask, well, then, what about inciting murder or riot or inflaming to 
lynchings?  If it doesn't matter where or how then you are explicitly 
approving of poems that incite to murder and inflame to lynchings. 

If you don't approve of poems that do such things then, of course, 
it's not at all true that "it doesn't matter where or how" -- it does 
matter where or how, and saying it doesn't matter and yet that it 
does is just the sort of sloppy contradiction you so frequently 
commit.  

So, Bob -- is it or is it not the case, in your view, that "it 
doesn't matter where or how"?


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





--__--__--

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


End of New-Poetry Digest



From jpjones  Thu Dec 26 01:50:13 2002
From: jpjones (Jill Jones)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 17:50:13 +1100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
In-Reply-To: <001001c2ac8c$84e82340$6363fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <48EA0F8B-189E-11D7-A7F1-0030657CB5FE@ihug.com.au>

I think Keats would have been a handy spinner myself (rather than a 
quick). I can just see him bowl up some immaculately controlled 
off-spin. Besides he did write 'On the grasshopper and cricket'.

Cheers, Jill

On Thursday, December 26, 2002, at 02:11  PM, Bob Grumman wrote:

>  Keats,
>> I don't believe, would have much to say about batting...given his
>> condition,
>
> Actually, Keats was quite robust until his final few years.  He would 
> have
> been a singles hitter, though.
>
> --Bob G.
>
_______________________________________________________
Jill Jones
http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~jpjones

Latest book: Screens Jets Heaven. Available now from Salt Publishing
http://www.saltpublishing.com





From Henry_Gould  Thu Dec 26 08:52:09 2002
From: Henry_Gould (Henry_Gould at brown.edu)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 8:52:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: from "Forth of July"
Message-ID: <200212261352.gBQDq9q13789@draco.services.brown.edu>

THANK YOU, Cris!  & happy Holly-Days to all - Henry

> 
> Henry,
> How refreshing!  What a joyous and giddy celebration of words!  You've met
> the giants and won.
> 
> Cris
> 
>




From marcus  Thu Dec 26 09:20:01 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 09:20:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
In-Reply-To: <a05100301ba2fd03717a8@[165.190.124.251]>
References: <062701c2ab5e$76815c60$6401a8c0@TRS80>
Message-ID: <3E0AC9C1.29490.7C6CCF@localhost>

ellen smith wrote:
> But the funny thing is some of the worst poems I've ever read came 
> from the intention of creating "timeless, classic poems."  That 
> intention, in my opinion, is the kiss of death for poetry.  Get 
> inside the poem, be there, have the full experience of writing the 
> poem...and the memorable lines and timelessness may result.

Once again, this denial of the value of intention of the artist seems 
short-sighted and doomed to creating mediocre-to-bad art for lack of 
ambition.  Of course Sturgeon's Law (90% of everything is crap) 
applies to poetry, too, so you've got to expect that 9 of 10 
ambitious poems are going to fail, just as 9 of 10 non-ambitious 
poems are going to fail. 

But so what? Why try for mediocre-to-bad when one could try for 
timeless and classic?


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From tadrichards  Thu Dec 26 09:25:26 2002
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 09:25:26 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
References: <062701c2ab5e$76815c60$6401a8c0@TRS80> <3E0AC9C1.29490.7C6CCF@localhost>
Message-ID: <001a01c2acea$a2a740b0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

I'm with Marcus here. At least you can have a certasin respect for thos
awful poems that come from the ambition to create something magnificent.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, December 26, 2002 9:20 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines


> ellen smith wrote:
> > But the funny thing is some of the worst poems I've ever read came
> > from the intention of creating "timeless, classic poems."  That
> > intention, in my opinion, is the kiss of death for poetry.  Get
> > inside the poem, be there, have the full experience of writing the
> > poem...and the memorable lines and timelessness may result.
>
> Once again, this denial of the value of intention of the artist seems
> short-sighted and doomed to creating mediocre-to-bad art for lack of
> ambition.  Of course Sturgeon's Law (90% of everything is crap)
> applies to poetry, too, so you've got to expect that 9 of 10
> ambitious poems are going to fail, just as 9 of 10 non-ambitious
> poems are going to fail.
>
> But so what? Why try for mediocre-to-bad when one could try for
> timeless and classic?
>
>
> Marcus Bales
>
> marcus at designerglass.com
> http://www.designerglass.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From bobgrumman  Thu Dec 26 12:30:04 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 12:30:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
References: <062701c2ab5e$76815c60$6401a8c0@TRS80> <3E0AC9C1.29490.7C6CCF@localhost>
Message-ID: <006901c2ad04$6e52f4c0$d4e3fea9@j1c1k6>

> ellen smith wrote:
> > But the funny thing is some of the worst poems I've ever read came
> > from the intention of creating "timeless, classic poems."  That
> > intention, in my opinion, is the kiss of death for poetry.  Get
> > inside the poem, be there, have the full experience of writing the
> > poem...and the memorable lines and timelessness may result.
>
> Once again, this denial of the value of intention of the artist seems
> short-sighted and doomed to creating mediocre-to-bad art for lack of
> ambition.  Of course Sturgeon's Law (90% of everything is crap)
> applies to poetry, too, so you've got to expect that 9 of 10
> ambitious poems are going to fail, just as 9 of 10 non-ambitious
> poems are going to fail.
>
> But so what? Why try for mediocre-to-bad when one could try for
> timeless and classic?

> Marcus Bales

Consider the possibility of not trying for either "timeless and classic" OR
"mediocre-to-bad," but just having fun.

--Bob G.




From barry.spacks  Thu Dec 26 12:35:52 2002
From: barry.spacks (Barry Spacks)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 09:35:52 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sing, Caedmon
In-Reply-To: <20021226170102.06AAC100CC@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021226093412.00a12a80@incoming.verizon.net>

Amber asked:

What do people teach when they teach poetry, anyway?

                respect (& irreverence)

and while we're still on the hooks & ladders thread,
an instance of setting up and punching "softly":

              THEMES ON LOVE

Grading themes on love at M.I.T.,
one-man Symposium at 3
A.M., across the court I saw a light,
another office-holder working late.
While Plato on a silver pillow rode
above the waves of pre-sophistic prose
I jotted teacher's notions that were not
as brave as our two lamps against the glut
of dawn. But when I clicked mine off
his too at once was gone, had been
my echo in a distant sheen
of glass: had been my own, and I
was lonely then, and wrote
these English words.

                   -- Barry Spacks
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From marcus  Thu Dec 26 12:50:44 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 12:50:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
In-Reply-To: <006901c2ad04$6e52f4c0$d4e3fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <3E0AFB24.27900.13D5D5F@localhost>

> > ellen smith wrote:
> > > But the funny thing is some of the worst poems I've ever read came
> > > from the intention of creating "timeless, classic poems."  That
> > > intention, in my opinion, is the kiss of death for poetry.  Get
> > > inside the poem, be there, have the full experience of writing the
> > > poem...and the memorable lines and timelessness may result.

Marcus Bales:
> > Once again, this denial of the value of intention of the artist seems
> > short-sighted and doomed to creating mediocre-to-bad art for lack of
> > ambition.  Of course Sturgeon's Law (90% of everything is crap)
> > applies to poetry, too, so you've got to expect that 9 of 10
> > ambitious poems are going to fail, just as 9 of 10 non-ambitious
> > poems are going to fail.
> > But so what? Why try for mediocre-to-bad when one could try for
> > timeless and classic?

Bob Grumman: 
> Consider the possibility of not trying for either "timeless and classic" OR
> "mediocre-to-bad," but just having fun.

Well, you play softball in the over-40 leagues all you want, Bob. I 
like to think, all evidence to the contrary, that that goddamned 
Bernie Williams has my job.


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From bobgrumman  Thu Dec 26 13:29:12 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 13:29:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
References: <3E0AFB24.27900.13D5D5F@localhost>
Message-ID: <00aa01c2ad0c$b09eb8c0$d4e3fea9@j1c1k6>


> > > ellen smith wrote:
> > > > But the funny thing is some of the worst poems I've ever read came
> > > > from the intention of creating "timeless, classic poems."  That
> > > > intention, in my opinion, is the kiss of death for poetry.  Get
> > > > inside the poem, be there, have the full experience of writing the
> > > > poem...and the memorable lines and timelessness may result.
>
> Marcus Bales:
> > > Once again, this denial of the value of intention of the artist seems
> > > short-sighted and doomed to creating mediocre-to-bad art for lack of
> > > ambition.  Of course Sturgeon's Law (90% of everything is crap)
> > > applies to poetry, too, so you've got to expect that 9 of 10
> > > ambitious poems are going to fail, just as 9 of 10 non-ambitious
> > > poems are going to fail.
> > > But so what? Why try for mediocre-to-bad when one could try for
> > > timeless and classic?
>
> Bob Grumman:
> > Consider the possibility of not trying for either "timeless and classic"
OR
> > "mediocre-to-bad," but just having fun.
>
> Well, you play softball in the over-40 leagues all you want, Bob.

Nah, I'm at least as ambitious as you, Marcus--but complicatedly, with room,
I hope, for going after fun.

>I like to think, all evidence to the contrary, that that goddamned
> Bernie Williams has my job.
>
>
> Marcus Bales

And having fun!  Because he's not worrying about what he has to do to make
timeless, classical catches, he just catches 'em (see any bio of Willie
Mays).







From marcus  Thu Dec 26 16:16:33 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 16:16:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
In-Reply-To: <00aa01c2ad0c$b09eb8c0$d4e3fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <3E0B2B61.17239.A53EE1@localhost>

> > > > ellen smith wrote:
> > > > > But the funny thing is some of the worst poems I've ever read came
> > > > > from the intention of creating "timeless, classic poems."  That
> > > > > intention, in my opinion, is the kiss of death for poetry.  Get
> > > > > inside the poem, be there, have the full experience of writing the
> > > > > poem...and the memorable lines and timelessness may result.
> >
> > Marcus Bales:
> > > > Once again, this denial of the value of intention of the artist seems
> > > > short-sighted and doomed to creating mediocre-to-bad art for lack of
> > > > ambition.  Of course Sturgeon's Law (90% of everything is crap)
> > > > applies to poetry, too, so you've got to expect that 9 of 10
> > > > ambitious poems are going to fail, just as 9 of 10 non-ambitious
> > > > poems are going to fail.
> > > > But so what? Why try for mediocre-to-bad when one could try for
> > > > timeless and classic?
> >
> > Bob Grumman:
> > > Consider the possibility of not trying for either "timeless and classic"
> OR "mediocre-to-bad," but just having fun.

Marcus Bales:
> > Well, you play softball in the over-40 leagues all you want, Bob.

Bob Grumman: 
> Nah, I'm at least as ambitious as you, Marcus--but complicatedly, with room,
> I hope, for going after fun.<

You said "JUST having fun", not "with room I hope for going after 
fun".  Unless you mean now to CHANGE what you said, in which case it 
is at least polite to acknowledge that you have changed your meaning, 
or at least what you said.  

Bob Grumman:
> And having fun!  Because he's not worrying about what he has to do to make
> timeless, classical catches, he just catches 'em ...<<

Every analogy breaks down, Bob -- and where the analogy between a 
game and an endeavor such as art breaks down may be right where you 
and Ellen seem to believe that if you sit down to write you can 
merely hope that a timeless classic will merely happen without either 
much effort or any intent.

But, on the other hand, of course we all grew up with that 
announcer's voice in our inner ears ("Ninth inning, seventh game of 
the World Series, the winning run at the plate, here's the pitch ... 
he swings ... it's a long deep one! ... It's gone!" and the like) -- 
and every one is trying for that timeless classic -- even the Bernie 
Williamses.  That's what they practice for, and that's what they play 
in hopes of.

It seems to me that there is a contradiction inherent in the notion 
that one can sit down to do art, bobble one's head from side to side, 
and say "Oh, gosh, I wonder whether what I do will be dreck or a 
timeless classic or something in between?  Oh, whatEVer!" and still 
hold that there is any reason to make any judgments whatever about 
quality in poetry.
 
Those who create timeless classics are have fun while they're doing 
it, all right, Bob, but they don't set out to have fun and create a 
timeless classic by accident.  And the notion that timeless classics 
can be created by happy accident by anyone who happens to wander into 
the field is pernicious not only to the field but to all those people 
who, believing such sewage, are doomed to fail having been lied to by 
those who told them that anything was possible. 


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From chris  Thu Dec 26 16:26:05 2002
From: chris (Chris Lott)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 12:26:05 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
References: <062701c2ab5e$76815c60$6401a8c0@TRS80> <3E0AC9C1.29490.7C6CCF@localhost> <006901c2ad04$6e52f4c0$d4e3fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <07a201c2ad25$6a047f30$6401a8c0@TRS80>

> Consider the possibility of not trying for either "timeless and
> classic" OR "mediocre-to-bad," but just having fun.

Yeah, and Coltrane just noodled hoping something good would come out of it.
Although I was joking about the silly advice given earlier, I would much
rather see failure while trying to do something grand than the tiny,
circumscribed little circles that most poets spend their days spinning
around in. And when you manage to get something besides failure out of it,
THAT is where the fun comes in.

c
--
Chris Lott




From bobgrumman  Thu Dec 26 17:35:47 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 17:35:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
References: <3E0B2B61.17239.A53EE1@localhost>
Message-ID: <002e01c2ad2f$23e259a0$0255fea9@j1c1k6>

I'm in a good mood today because I have half of a fun poem done, so I'll
quiblle with you, Marcus.

> > > > Consider the possibility of not trying for either "timeless and
classic"
> > OR "mediocre-to-bad," but just having fun.
>
> Marcus Bales:
> > > Well, you play softball in the over-40 leagues all you want, Bob.
>
> Bob Grumman:
> > Nah, I'm at least as ambitious as you, Marcus--but complicatedly, with
room,
> > I hope, for going after fun.<

> You said "JUST having fun", not "with room I hope for going after
> fun".

What I said, pretty exactly, was that a person should consider doing poetry
for fun rather than
to make a poem that was either "timeless and classic" or "mediocre-to-bad."
This was in response to your implication that if one didn't consciously try
to make a timeless poem, the only alternative was to make one that was not
timeless.
I did not say where I stood.  In my second post,  replying to your false
inference that I had low ambitions as a poet, I did say where I stood,
albeit not formally: with ambitions but "with room for going after fun."  I
would add that I hope there is room in my ambitions for JUST going after
fun, at times, too.  Which is not to correct myself but to add to what I
said.

>Unless you mean now to CHANGE what you said, in which case it
> is at least polite to acknowledge that you have changed your meaning,
> or at least what you said.
>
> Bob Grumman:
> > And having fun!  Because he's not worrying about what he has to do to
make
> > timeless, classical catches, he just catches 'em ...<<
>
> Every analogy breaks down, Bob -- and where the analogy between a
> game and an endeavor such as art breaks down may be right where you
> and Ellen seem to believe that if you sit down to write you can
> merely hope that a timeless classic will merely happen without either
> much effort or any intent.

Speaking for myself, I think it is very complicated.  For instance, fun for
me is trying to find new ways of expressing myself in poems--which is also
very ambitious because it's very hard to find new ways of doing things.
There's also the problem of when to be consciously ambitious.  For me it's
in two things (mainly).  The first is one's preparation for writing a
poem--what poets--and critics--to go to for ideas and inspiration, what
subject-matter to use, etc.--pick what seems large to one, and go where it's
likely to be, and reflect on it, etc.  But that's only one part of
preparation.

The second is the self-critiquing one, I believe, should subject one's poems
to.  Look at a finished poem critically, to see if it seems large in some
way, classical or otherwise.  Revise it if it isn't, and is revisable.  Keep
it if not revisable but not bad.  Throw it out if it seems both small and
ineffective.

I think when you're actually working on a poem, you should surrender to the
poem, and go where it takes you.  Questioning how good it is or will be at
this time seems to me counter-productive.  You have to assume that you know
what you're doing enough to have a chance to click--and that you'll
recognize that you haven't later, if you don't, and
will have the sense to withdraw the poem or fix it.


> But, on the other hand, of course we all grew up with that
> announcer's voice in our inner ears ("Ninth inning, seventh game of
> the World Series, the winning run at the plate, here's the pitch ...
> he swings ... it's a long deep one! ... It's gone!" and the like) --
> and every one is trying for that timeless classic -- even the Bernie
> Williamses.  That's what they practice for, and that's what they play
> in hopes of.

Possibly.  But when Williams is at the plate, he's not thinking about doing
something timeless, he's thinking about hitting.

> It seems to me that there is a contradiction inherent in the notion
> that one can sit down to do art, bobble one's head from side to side,
> and say "Oh, gosh, I wonder whether what I do will be dreck or a
> timeless classic or something in between?  Oh, whatEVer!" and still
> hold that there is any reason to make any judgments whatever about
> quality in poetry.

I don't sit down and wonder anything like that, nor do I think many poets
do.  I sit down and fool around with ideas, maybe automatic writing or
drawing, until I notice something I think I can make a poem of.  Then I
focus on it.  I don't worry about the quality of the poem I hope to make
because I long-since internalized a feel for what I think will, so if I feel
some image or whatever may make a poem, it goes without saying that it may
make what I think will be an effective poem.

> Those who create timeless classics are have fun while they're doing
> it, all right, Bob, but they don't set out to have fun and create a
> timeless classic by accident.

Actually, in one sense they do--they go through the actions that have
previously yielded poems for them and hope an accident will give them
another.  I'm quibbling, of course: I'm just saying that there's no proper
learned way to make sure of writing a good poem.  You have to have luck.
Hard work allows one to exploit one's luck, it can't substitute for it.

>And the notion that timeless classics
> can be created by happy accident by anyone who happens to wander into
> the field is pernicious not only to the field but to all those people
> who, believing such sewage, are doomed to fail having been lied to by
> those who told them that anything was possible.

> Marcus Bales
>
I agree, but I don't think anyone is saying the above.  To say when we write
poems, we should put aside ambition, is not the same as saying anyone can
write a poem.
>
Don't you see that you too frequently work out (without great attention to
accuracy) the worst possible descriptions of positions that you oppose so
you can shoot them down?

--Bob G.





From marcus  Thu Dec 26 18:38:19 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 18:38:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
In-Reply-To: <002e01c2ad2f$23e259a0$0255fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <3E0B4C9B.25581.1270ED1@localhost>

Bob Grumman:
> What I said, pretty exactly, was that a person should consider doing poetry
> for fun rather than
> to make a poem that was either "timeless and classic" or "mediocre-to-bad."
> This was in response to your implication that if one didn't consciously try
> to make a timeless poem, the only alternative was to make one that was not
> timeless.<<

That's right; it is my position that timeless classic poems no more 
happen by accident than that Ted Williams was up there at the plate 
closing his eyes before he swung, or that Joe DiMaggio just stood 
there in center field hoping the ball would come to him.  

But you seem to believe that it's all just happy accident.  Allah 
wills it, I guess.  Or not.

Bob Grumman:
> ... with ambitions but "with room for going after fun."  I
> would add that I hope there is room in my ambitions for JUST going after
> fun, at times, too.  Which is not to correct myself but to add to what I
> said.<<

But the question is this, Bob:  do you aver that by JUST going after 
fun you think it's possible to achieve a timeless classic?  It seems 
to me that you are.

Bob Grumman:
> ... For instance, fun for
> me is trying to find new ways of expressing myself in poems--which is also
> very ambitious because it's very hard to find new ways of doing things.<<

Well this goes back to a discussion we've had before: whether 
something that is new is inherently valuable just because it is new.  
You seemed in the past, and seem here, to be holding that newness 
ALONE is a virtue, irrespective of any other qualities. I disagree 
with that; I think newness has to have other qualities before it can 
be judged valuable.

Bob Grumman:
> There's also the problem of when to be consciously ambitious.  For me it's
> in two things (mainly).  The first is one's preparation for writing a
> poem--what poets--and critics--to go to for ideas and inspiration, what
> subject-matter to use, etc.--pick what seems large to one, and go where it's
> likely to be, and reflect on it, etc.  But that's only one part of
> preparation.
> The second is the self-critiquing one, I believe, should subject one's poems
> to.  Look at a finished poem critically, to see if it seems large in some
> way, classical or otherwise.  Revise it if it isn't, and is revisable.  Keep
> it if not revisable but not bad.  Throw it out if it seems both small and
> ineffective.<<

But all this does not argue for the timeless classic being a happy 
accident, Bob -- all this argues that writing anything, and 
especially a timeless classic, takes preparation and critical 
analysis: notions that are antithetical to the "happy accident" 
school of thought.  You seem to be trying to have it both ways again.

Bob Grumman: 
> I think when you're actually working on a poem, you should surrender to the
> poem, and go where it takes you.  Questioning how good it is or will be at
> this time seems to me counter-productive.  You have to assume that you know
> what you're doing enough to have a chance to click--and that you'll
> recognize that you haven't later, if you don't, and
> will have the sense to withdraw the poem or fix it.<<

To be sure -- but this, too, argues against the "happy accident" 
approach.  I don't see how you can hold both these views at once 
without contradiction. In fact, it appears that what you're doing 
here is loudly declaring that I'm wrong about the need for intent and 
preparation and critique while calling for intent and preparation and 
critique. What's with that?

Marcus Bales:
> > But, on the other hand, of course we all grew up with that
> > announcer's voice in our inner ears ("Ninth inning, seventh game of
> > the World Series, the winning run at the plate, here's the pitch ...
> > he swings ... it's a long deep one! ... It's gone!" and the like) --
> > and every one is trying for that timeless classic -- even the Bernie
> > Williamses.  That's what they practice for, and that's what they play
> > in hopes of.

Bob Grumman: 
> Possibly.  But when Williams is at the plate, he's not thinking about doing
> something timeless, he's thinking about hitting.

No doubt he's thinking about hitting and about pitching, too -- but 
he's there with intent, not just holding his bat out hoping the 
pitcher will hit it with the ball.  Your argument, and Ellen's, seems 
to be that doing art is like standing at the plate with the bat out 
hoping the ball will hit it, and NOT with any intent to hit behind 
the runner or hit a gap in the defenses or foul enough pitches off to 
get the pitch one wants.  

Marcus Bales: 
> > It seems to me that there is a contradiction inherent in the notion
> > that one can sit down to do art, bobble one's head from side to side,
> > and say "Oh, gosh, I wonder whether what I do will be dreck or a
> > timeless classic or something in between?  Oh, whatEVer!" and still
> > hold that there is any reason to make any judgments whatever about
> > quality in poetry.

Bob Grumman: 
> I don't sit down and wonder anything like that, nor do I think many poets
> do.<<

No, Bob, I don't either -- but you seem to SAY, and Ellen seems to 
say, something like that when you say (and she says) that the poet 
need have, and perhaps ought have, no intent to write well enough to 
produce a timeless classic. 

Marcus Bales: 
> > Those who create timeless classics are have fun while they're doing
> > it, all right, Bob, but they don't set out to have fun and create a
> > timeless classic by accident.

Bob Grumman: 
> Actually, in one sense they do--they go through the actions that have
> previously yielded poems for them and hope an accident will give them
> another.  I'm quibbling, of course: I'm just saying that there's no proper
> learned way to make sure of writing a good poem.  You have to have luck.
> Hard work allows one to exploit one's luck, it can't substitute for it.<<

But only in one very limited sense: in the sense that when Barry 
Bonds is at the plate he is willing to hit the ball if he can; he has 
intent, even if he fails, to hit the ball.  

Bob Grumman:
> ... To say when we write
> poems, we should put aside ambition, is not the same as saying anyone can
> write a poem.<<

No, it's not -- but I'm saying that to put aside ambition is to stand 
there with your bat out, hoping the pitcher hits it with the ball.  




Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From chris  Thu Dec 26 21:07:53 2002
From: chris (Chris Lott)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 17:07:53 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
References: <3E0B4C9B.25581.1270ED1@localhost>
Message-ID: <07ce01c2ad4c$c9af8c00$6401a8c0@TRS80>

>> ... For instance, fun for
>> me is trying to find new ways of expressing myself in poems--which
>> is also very ambitious because it's very hard to find new ways of
>> doing things.<<

Obviously, you haven't read my latest opus "Xaklsjfd3@ fe DAF#3ewse{" I
daresay it is unlike anything anyone has read before and it only took me two
minutes of fun typing!

Seriously, though, the metaphor seems to have been lost in this
conversation, particularly since the argument shouldn't be that Ted Williams
stepped to the plate thinking "let's do something timeless"-- he stepped to
the plate wanting to hit a home run each time, which would BE the timeless
act. I am sure, given your taxonomic tendencies, that you have seen
thousands of the little leaguer poets out there who step to the plate
bunting (or begging for a whiffle ball and stand) because they are afraid,
unable, or unwilling to take the risk for the long ball. I certainly wasn't
serious about "committing an act of literature" when I gave this thread
legs... I was just noting some funny-sounding advice to "write memorable
lines." Kind of like telling an aspiring composer to "just compose something
suitable for a grammy" :)

On the other hand, there are \people out there who manage to do something
great practically in spite of themselves and their ambition. The fact that
most artists are phenomenal liars about their craft doesn't help to sort
things out either.

c




From bobgrumman  Thu Dec 26 22:02:19 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 22:02:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
References: <3E0B4C9B.25581.1270ED1@localhost>
Message-ID: <001b01c2ad54$5ef88a80$9c1efea9@j1c1k6>

> Bob Grumman:
> > What I said, pretty exactly, was that a person should consider doing
poetry
> > for fun rather than
> > to make a poem that was either "timeless and classic" or
"mediocre-to-bad."
> > This was in response to your implication that if one didn't consciously
try
> > to make a timeless poem, the only alternative was to make one that was
not
> > timeless.<<

I stand by the above BUT I did mean to say that "the only alternative was to
TRY to make some other kind of poem."

> That's right; it is my position that timeless classic poems no more
> happen by accident than that Ted Williams was up there at the plate
> closing his eyes before he swung, or that Joe DiMaggio just stood
> there in center field hoping the ball would come to him.

I understand that that is what you believe, but I was merely pointing out
that having fun without concern for the eventual standing of one's poem is
possible, too--which is not like Williams closing his eyes or Dimaggio not
moving, but like Williams swinging without worrying about his batting
average or Dimaggio chasing a fly ball without considering what his fielding
average will be if he catches it.

> But you seem to believe that it's all just happy accident.  Allah
> wills it, I guess.  Or not.

Here's where your predeliction for ridiculous generalizations is again
evident.  I believe timeless classical poems (actually I'd prefer a
different phrase) CAN happen by happy accident.  I never said anything to
indicate that I think their occurence is ALL JUST HAPPY ACCIDENT.

> Bob Grumman:
> > ... with ambitions but "with room for going after fun."  I
> > would add that I hope there is room in my ambitions for JUST going after
> > fun, at times, too.  Which is not to correct myself but to add to what I
> > said.<<
>
> But the question is this, Bob:  do you aver that by JUST going after
> fun you think it's possible to achieve a timeless classic?  It seems
> to me that you are.

I explain myself further on.

> Bob Grumman:
> > ... For instance, fun for
> > me is trying to find new ways of expressing myself in poems--which is
also
> > very ambitious because it's very hard to find new ways of doing
things.<<
>
> Well this goes back to a discussion we've had before: whether
> something that is new is inherently valuable just because it is new.
> You seemed in the past, and seem here, to be holding that newness
> ALONE is a virtue, irrespective of any other qualities. I disagree
> with that; I think newness has to have other qualities before it can
> be judged valuable.

My only point here was to indicate that it is ambitious to try to do
something new regardless of the value of it.

> Bob Grumman:
> > There's also the problem of when to be consciously ambitious.  For me
it's
> > in two things (mainly).  The first is one's preparation for writing a
> > poem--what poets--and critics--to go to for ideas and inspiration, what
> > subject-matter to use, etc.--pick what seems large to one, and go where
it's
> > likely to be, and reflect on it, etc.  But that's only one part of
> > preparation.
> > The second is the self-critiquing one, I believe, should subject one's
poems
> > to.  Look at a finished poem critically, to see if it seems large in
some
> > way, classical or otherwise.  Revise it if it isn't, and is revisable.
Keep
> > it if not revisable but not bad.  Throw it out if it seems both small
and
> > ineffective.<<
>
> But all this does not argue for the timeless classic being a happy
> accident, Bob -- all this argues that writing anything, and
> especially a timeless classic, takes preparation and critical
> analysis: notions that are antithetical to the "happy accident"
> school of thought.  You seem to be trying to have it both ways again.

Your standard criticism of complex thought.  I am saying that one can sit
down to have fun writing a poem and achieve a great poem.

> Bob Grumman:
> > I think when you're actually working on a poem, you should surrender to
the
> > poem, and go where it takes you.  Questioning how good it is or will be
at
> > this time seems to me counter-productive.  You have to assume that you
know
> > what you're doing enough to have a chance to click--and that you'll
> > recognize that you haven't later, if you don't, and
> > will have the sense to withdraw the poem or fix it.<<
>
> To be sure -- but this, too, argues against the "happy accident"
> approach.  I don't see how you can hold both these views at once
> without contradiction. In fact, it appears that what you're doing
> here is loudly declaring that I'm wrong about the need for intent and
> preparation and critique while calling for intent and preparation and
> critique. What's with that?

I was saying having fun without THINKING about the value of one's poem is
one possible way of going about writing poems.


> Marcus Bales:
> > > But, on the other hand, of course we all grew up with that
> > > announcer's voice in our inner ears ("Ninth inning, seventh game of
> > > the World Series, the winning run at the plate, here's the pitch ...
> > > he swings ... it's a long deep one! ... It's gone!" and the like) --
> > > and every one is trying for that timeless classic -- even the Bernie
> > > Williamses.  That's what they practice for, and that's what they play
> > > in hopes of.
>
> Bob Grumman:
> > Possibly.  But when Williams is at the plate, he's not thinking about
doing
> > something timeless, he's thinking about hitting.
>
> No doubt he's thinking about hitting and about pitching, too -- but
> he's there with intent, not just holding his bat out hoping the
> pitcher will hit it with the ball.  Your argument, and Ellen's, seems
> to be that doing art is like standing at the plate with the bat out
> hoping the ball will hit it, and NOT with any intent to hit behind
> the runner or hit a gap in the defenses or foul enough pitches off to
> get the pitch one wants.

Did either of us say we thought poets should hold a pencil on a piece of
paper and hope a wind comes along to push the paper enough interesting ways
for the pencil to spell out a timeless classical poem on it?  You're being
ridiculous.

> Marcus Bales:
> > > It seems to me that there is a contradiction inherent in the notion
> > > that one can sit down to do art, bobble one's head from side to side,
> > > and say "Oh, gosh, I wonder whether what I do will be dreck or a
> > > timeless classic or something in between?  Oh, whatEVer!" and still
> > > hold that there is any reason to make any judgments whatever about
> > > quality in poetry.
>
> Bob Grumman:
> > I don't sit down and wonder anything like that, nor do I think many
poets
> > do.<<
>
> No, Bob, I don't either -- but you seem to SAY, and Ellen seems to
> say, something like that when you say (and she says) that the poet
> need have, and perhaps ought have, no intent to write well enough to
> produce a timeless classic.

No, I didn't say a poet ought not to have an intent to write well.  I said
he probably ought not to be thinking that he should write well.

> Marcus Bales:
> > > Those who create timeless classics are have fun while they're doing
> > > it, all right, Bob, but they don't set out to have fun and create a
> > > timeless classic by accident.

Actually, I think some do, even in preparation.  They read poems for fun,
then write them for fun, and keep writing them for fun, and improve them due
to the fun of trying more things.  Etc.

> Bob Grumman:
> > Actually, in one sense they do--they go through the actions that have
> > previously yielded poems for them and hope an accident will give them
> > another.  I'm quibbling, of course: I'm just saying that there's no
proper
> > learned way to make sure of writing a good poem.  You have to have luck.
> > Hard work allows one to exploit one's luck, it can't substitute for
it.<<
>
> But only in one very limited sense: in the sense that when Barry
> Bonds is at the plate he is willing to hit the ball if he can; he has
> intent, even if he fails, to hit the ball.

Some great players were not concerned with records.  I think the analogy is
to them.  Bonds trying to hit the ball is not intent to be great but to hit
the ball.  Poets by definition have an intent to write.  What we're arguing,
more and more idiotically by the minute, is whether a poet should have the
particular intent to write a great poem whenever he writes a poem.  I say
no.  I think you say or imply yes, though I'm sure you really can't mean
that since you've done light verse and silly rhymes for the fun of it.

> Bob Grumman:
> > ... To say when we write
> > poems, we should put aside ambition, is not the same as saying anyone
can
> > write a poem.<<
>
> No, it's not -- but I'm saying that to put aside ambition is to stand
> there with your bat out, hoping the pitcher hits it with the ball.

> Marcus Bales

I can only say that's preposterous unless you want to take ambition to mean
having some kind of desire to do something.  I might almost agree if you
said it's like swinging wildly at every pitch in hopes you'll hit the ball.
You won't do well, but you will probably hit a home run every twenty or
forty games, assuming your manager leaves you in the line-up.

--Bob G.




From bobgrumman  Thu Dec 26 22:08:33 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 26 Dec 2002 22:08:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
References: <3E0B4C9B.25581.1270ED1@localhost> <07ce01c2ad4c$c9af8c00$6401a8c0@TRS80>
Message-ID: <002c01c2ad55$3e0c15c0$9c1efea9@j1c1k6>

> >> ... For instance, fun for
> >> me is trying to find new ways of expressing myself in poems--which
> >> is also very ambitious because it's very hard to find new ways of
> >> doing things.<<
>
> Obviously, you haven't read my latest opus "Xaklsjfd3@ fe DAF#3ewse{" I
> daresay it is unlike anything anyone has read before and it only took me
two
> minutes of fun typing!

Actually, it isn't AT ALL unlike anything anyone has read before.  I even
have a name for it: "Microherent Poetry."

> Seriously, though, the metaphor seems to have been lost in this
> conversation, particularly since the argument shouldn't be that Ted
Williams
> stepped to the plate thinking "let's do something timeless"-- he stepped
to
> the plate wanting to hit a home run each time, which would BE the timeless
> act. I am sure, given your taxonomic tendencies, that you have seen
> thousands of the little leaguer poets out there who step to the plate
> bunting (or begging for a whiffle ball and stand) because they are afraid,
> unable, or unwilling to take the risk for the long ball. I certainly
wasn't
> serious about "committing an act of literature" when I gave this thread
> legs... I was just noting some funny-sounding advice to "write memorable
> lines." Kind of like telling an aspiring composer to "just compose
something
> suitable for a grammy" :)

> On the other hand, there are \people out there who manage to do something
> great practically in spite of themselves and their ambition. The fact that
> most artists are phenomenal liars about their craft doesn't help to sort
> things out either.
>
> c


Sounds like we mostly agree.

--Bob G.




From marcus  Fri Dec 27 08:21:57 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 08:21:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
In-Reply-To: <001b01c2ad54$5ef88a80$9c1efea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <3E0C0DA5.31296.54EFB4@localhost>

> Bob Grumman:
> What I said, pretty exactly, was that a person should consider
> doing poetry for fun rather than to make a poem that was either
> "timeless and classic" or "mediocre-to-bad." This was in response
> to your implication that if one didn't consciously try to make a
> timeless poem, the only alternative was to make one that was
> not timeless.<<
> I stand by the above BUT I did mean to say that "the only alternative was to
> TRY to make some other kind of poem."

But again, what's the point of trying to make some other kind of 
poem? The notion you now seem to be putting forward is that any poem 
is better than no poem at all. In a different context, political 
oppression for example, one might want to make that argument as a 
broad one in favor of social freedom, but in the context of a 
discussion about art without such politically oppressive contexts, it 
makes no sense at all because it tries to privilege attempts over 
accomplishments.

Again, you seem to be advocating, in our analogy with baseball, just 
standing there at the plate with your bat out hoping the pitcher will 
hit it with the ball; or maybe swinging with your eyes closed, or any 
other sort of attempt without intention. I'm trying to say that 
standing at the plate is not enough; there must be intention.  

Now, intention isn't enough, either -- you also have to be standing 
at the plate! 

Bob Grumman: 
> I understand that that is what you believe, but I was merely pointing out
> that having fun without concern for the eventual standing of one's poem is
> possible, too--which is not like Williams closing his eyes or Dimaggio not
> moving, but like Williams swinging without worrying about his batting
> average or Dimaggio chasing a fly ball without considering what his fielding
> average will be if he catches it.<<

And what do you suppose the odds are that either Williams or Dimaggio 
were unaware of the consequences of any given failure -- or success?  
Come on, Bob!  The whole point is to say that it's more fun to hit 
the ball or to catch it, and it's less fun to strike out or have the 
ball go between your legs. You seem to be advocating a very very pure 
notion of any endeavor: that the process or the game is every bit as 
much fun, even if one is always striking out or dropping the ball, as 
getting a hit or making a catch.  That's the kind of thing that we 
tell the Special Olympics kids.  You're advocating a kind of Special 
Olympics Poetry: one in which everyone is always a winner just 
because they have tried.

Bob Grumman:
> ... I believe timeless classical poems (actually I'd prefer a
> different phrase) CAN happen by happy accident.  I never said anything to
> indicate that I think their occurence is ALL JUST HAPPY ACCIDENT.<

Well, I think they (timeless classics or whatever you want to call 
them) are intended and willed, and NOT happy accidents. As for your 
suddenly careful distinction between "some happy accidents" and "all 
just happy accidents", well, that won't wash either, because if SOME 
timeless classics are just happy accidents, if we can indeed hit home 
runs by standing at the plate with our bats out hoping the pitcher 
hits it with the ball, then why not do ONLY that?  Why bother 
studying pitchers, practicing batting, thinking about what pitches 
might be thrown in what game situations, and the like?  Why bother 
with all that annoying intention and practice and engagement in the 
process when you believe that any fan in the stands might do just as 
well by standing there sublimely with his bat out, hoping the pitcher 
hits it with the ball?  

The entire notion that a timeless classic can be a happy accident is 
such a fatalistic approach that it beggars the value of any endeavor. 

Bob Grumman:
> My only point here was to indicate that it is ambitious to try to do
> something new regardless of the value of it.<<

The ridiculousness of that is illustrated by Lott's random-key-
striking response in another email.  It may be new, and it may be 
that the claim that such random key-striking is a poem is new, but 
it's not got any value just by being new.  Intent to make art is not 
enough, any more than intent to get a hit by standing there with your 
bat out hoping the pitcher will hit it with the ball is enough -- nor 
is intent to make a touchdown when playing baseball enough. Neither 
intent alone nor the attempt alone are sufficient -- and you seem to 
be saying that the attempt alone is in fact sufficient.
 
Marcus Bales:
> > ... [you argue] that writing anything, and
> > especially a timeless classic, takes preparation and critical
> > analysis: notions that are antithetical to the "happy accident"
> > school of thought.  You seem to be trying to have it both ways again.

Bob Grumman: 
> Your standard criticism of complex thought.  I am saying that one can sit
> down to have fun writing a poem and achieve a great poem.<<

Your thought is not complex in this instance; it is confused. It is 
fun to achieve at a high level in any endeavor -- more fun than to be 
just barely competent and competence is more fun than failure. But if 
one is only out for fun then one has abandoned explicitly any 
pretense toward significance, and nothing great can come of that.

I am saying that one can sit down to write what one hopes will be a 
great poem and have fun doing it, but one cannot sit down merely to 
have fun with words and produce a great poem. Byron was swinging for 
the fences with _Don Juan_ and not only having fun but making fun of; 
Pope with the _Dunciad_, Aristophanes with _The Frogs_, and so on -- 
I'm not saying that funny stuff can't be great or that it's not fun 
to write funny stuff.  What I'm saying is that you have to intend to  
get a hit or else you're just standing there with your bat out.

Bob Grumman:
> I was saying having fun without THINKING about the value of one's poem is
> one possible way of going about writing poems.<<

Still, it seems to me, one can INTEND to write a valuable poem 
without THINKING about it too much, but one cannot write a valuable 
poem without the intent to do so.  To start a poem with the intent to 
just noodle around is to trivialize the endeavor by starting in a 
place that holds no promise of any significance.

Bob Grumman:
> Did either of us say we thought poets should hold a pencil on a piece of
> paper and hope a wind comes along to push the paper enough interesting ways
> for the pencil to spell out a timeless classical poem on it? ...<<

Yes -- you said that you begin with "automatic writing or drawing" 
which is nothing but hoping the divine afflatus pushes your pencil 
around. It's a charming cover story to protect artists from the 
retributions of the powerful: that one is channeling a god; it may 
even be effective from time to time. But unless you're a devotee of 
the "enough monkeys at enough typewriters in enough time" school of 
the creation of _Hamlet_ you don't really believe it.  It's just a 
cover story, a way to keep the authorities and the annoyingly curious 
from bothering the artist so much that he or she has no time or place 
to do art.

Bob Grumman:
> ... I didn't say a poet ought not to have an intent to write well. 
> I said he probably ought not to be thinking that he should write
> well.<

Well if you're distinguishing between the paralysis of analysis and 
intent, I can agree with you there -- but this is the first time 
you've seemed to acknowledge that an artist has to have any intent 
whatever. That's interesting!  Is that double-negative locution ("I 
didn't say a poet ought not...") more amenable to you, then, instead 
of "A poet ought to ..."?
 
Bob Grumman:
> Some great players were not concerned with records.  I think the analogy is
> to them.<<

I think this is just flat wrong; all great performers are concerned 
with the records because they take their endeavor seriously, and are 
performing in the context of the endeavor.  They know very well, and 
are intimately concerned with, what the records are and where they 
stand in relation to those records.  In part that's what makes 
breaking a record such a difficult feat: the awareness that one is 
taking on greatness; that one is making a claim to greatness for 
oneself by one's very performance. Eventually, great performers have 
no one to compare themselves to except other great performers, and 
the records of those performers, the records of their mutual endeavor 
-- and the notion that a great performer is unconcerned with the 
records of his or her endeavor demeans the great performer and his or 
her performance.

Bob Grumman:
> What we're arguing ... is whether a poet should have the
> particular intent to write a great poem whenever he writes a poem.  I say
> no.  I think you say or imply yes, though I'm sure you really can't mean
> that since you've done light verse and silly rhymes for the fun of it.<<

There are two kinds of poems, it seems to me: those written for fun 
and those written for significance -- and whether the poems are funny 
or serious has nothing to do with whether they are "for fun" or "for 
significance".  Sure, I've written verse for the fun of it, both 
funny and serious, and none of that had the intent to be significant; 
but I've also written funny stuff that is very serious indeed and 
certainly intended to be significant.

You seem to be confusing the notion of _sprezzatura_, that no matter 
how difficult a performance may be, Castiglione's perfect courtier 
will make it look easy (even if that means practicing like the devil 
in private where none can see), with a breezy lack of concern with 
accomplishment at all.

Bob Grumman:
> ... I might almost agree if you
> said it's like swinging wildly at every pitch in hopes you'll hit
> the ball. You won't do well, but you will probably hit a home run
> every twenty or forty games, assuming your manager leaves you in
> the line-up.<<

All right, Bob:  your and Ellen's approach seems like swinging wildly 
at every pitch, eyes tightly shut, with no intent to make any 
particular play (you won't bunt, you won't hit behind the runner on a 
hit-and-run, you won't foul balls off to get your pitch, and the 
like), sort of hoping that if you make contact with the ball at all 
it'll be something that someone else judges to be a fair ball while 
they yell at you to "run! run!" and you take off for third base from 
the plate.  It's a Special Olympics view of poetry, Bob.


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From Cadaly  Wed Dec 25 20:58:17 2002
From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 25 Dec 2002 20:58:17 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] happy, merry
Message-ID: <f5.27223478.2b3bbc39@aol.com>

Merry ?02-3

Catherine Daly
(Kasia)
??????????? & Ron Burch

?
Hook & Ornament

?

O come
all you
o come
you o come
??????????????????????????????????? (adorn you)


???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

?????????????? o

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

????????? Christmas

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

??????? tree tree tree

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

??? baum baum kugel

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

??? kugel baum baum

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

??????? weihnachten

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

??????????? tannen

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

???????????? nacht

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

????????????? night

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

??????????????? fir

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

??????????????? o

Here you come,
here you come, right down
the lane.
??????????????????????????????????? (jingle)


???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

??????????????? o

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

?????????? Babel?s

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

??????? beaux bows,

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

????? baubles, belles

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
 
lettres, bawdy stories, 
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? bibliographies, 
bubbly imbibed, burbling, 
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 
tongues tumult, embellishment

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

?????????????? bell

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

?????????????? bell

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

??????????????? o

?


Oh, what fun it is to ride.
??????????????????????????????????? (laughing)


???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

???????????????? o

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

??????? glocke glass 

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

??? glancing glissando
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 
gleam glint flash & glitter
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 
glockenspeil speil slang harangue
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 
persuade, play, peal, ha, 

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
 
ha, ha, glisten, listen,

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

???????????? clock

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

??????????????? &

?

You?re coming to town.
How still we see it lie.
??????????????????????????????????? (adore you)

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

?????????????? &

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

??????? star, jester?s 
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 
trinket, trifle, in an Ethiope's ear
??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 
ornamental??? oriental 

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 
orare,?????? ornare

?

We wish,
we wish, we wish
??????????????????????? (heav?n and nature sing)

It?s beginning to look a lot like an occasion.

?

?



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From bobgrumman  Fri Dec 27 12:48:04 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 12:48:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hooks and punchlines
References: <3E0C0DA5.31296.54EFB4@localhost>
Message-ID: <002f01c2add0$1c560f00$be1afea9@j1c1k6>

I could have sworn I already answered this, but
have some spare time, so here goes again:

> > Bob Grumman:
> > What I said, pretty exactly, was that a person should consider
> > doing poetry for fun rather than to make a poem that was either
> > "timeless and classic" or "mediocre-to-bad." This was in response
> > to your implication that if one didn't consciously try to make a
> > timeless poem, the only alternative was to make one that was
> > not timeless.<<
> > I stand by the above BUT I did mean to say that "the only alternative
was to
> > TRY to make some other kind of poem."
>
> But again, what's the point of trying to make some other kind of
> poem?

To have fun.  To learn something.  To exercise one's mind.  To express
something one wants to express even if the expression of it is not
timelessly great.  To test one's ability to make a poem.  Other reasons.

But you're sidestepping my only real argument, which was against your notion
that one must try for a great poem or a not-great poem, there's nothing
else.  I say that one need not try for either.

>The notion you now seem to be putting forward is that any poem
> is better than no poem at all.

The notion I am putting forward is that there are many different reasons for
doing poems, achieving greatness as a poet being only one.


>In a different context, political
> oppression for example, one might want to make that argument as a
> broad one in favor of social freedom, but in the context of a
> discussion about art without such politically oppressive contexts, it
> makes no sense at all because it tries to privilege attempts over
> accomplishments.

To you.  To me it
 's just a restatement of "to each his own."

> Again, you seem to be advocating, in our analogy with baseball, just
> standing there at the plate with your bat out hoping the pitcher will
> hit it with the ball; or maybe swinging with your eyes closed, or any
> other sort of attempt without intention. I'm trying to say that
> standing at the plate is not enough; there must be intention.

> Now, intention isn't enough, either -- you also have to be standing
> at the plate!
>
> Bob Grumman:
> > I understand that that is what you believe, but I was merely pointing
out
> > that having fun without concern for the eventual standing of one's poem
is
> > possible, too--which is not like Williams closing his eyes or Dimaggio
not
> > moving, but like Williams swinging without worrying about his batting
> > average or Dimaggio chasing a fly ball without considering what his
fielding
> > average will be if he catches it.<<
>
> And what do you suppose the odds are that either Williams or Dimaggio
> were unaware of the consequences of any given failure -- or success?

> Come on, Bob!  The whole point is to say that it's more fun to hit
> the ball or to catch it, and it's less fun to strike out or have the
> ball go between your legs. You seem to be advocating a very very pure
> notion of any endeavor: that the process or the game is every bit as
> much fun, even if one is always striking out or dropping the ball, as
> getting a hit or making a catch.

That's the kind of thing that we
> tell the Special Olympics kids.  You're advocating a kind of Special
> Olympics Poetry: one in which everyone is always a winner just
> because they have tried.

The analogy with baseball, which was never mine, breaks down because in
baseball one wins or loses.  In poetry, there are many more ways to score
than there are in baseball.  One is by how great the critics take one's poem
to be.  I've already listed ways one's poem can be a success (for its
author) without making anyone's list of Great Poems (or being the equivalent
of a strike-out).  Aside from that, even if one ultimately want to make such
a list, one NEED NOT think consciously about composing a poem that will make
that list while writing it.  More likely than not, if he does, he'll tie
himself in knots and not get anywhere.

> Bob Grumman:
> > ... I believe timeless classical poems (actually I'd prefer a
> > different phrase) CAN happen by happy accident.  I never said anything
to
> > indicate that I think their occurence is ALL JUST HAPPY ACCIDENT.<
>
> Well, I think they (timeless classics or whatever you want to call
> them) are intended and willed, and NOT happy accidents. As for your
> suddenly careful distinction between "some happy accidents" and "all
> just happy accidents", well, that won't wash either, because if SOME
> timeless classics are just happy accidents, if we can indeed hit home
> runs by standing at the plate with our bats out hoping the pitcher
> hits it with the ball, then why not do ONLY that?  Why bother
> studying pitchers, practicing batting, thinking about what pitches
> might be thrown in what game situations, and the like?  Why bother
> with all that annoying intention and practice and engagement in the
> process when you believe that any fan in the stands might do just as
> well by standing there sublimely with his bat out, hoping the pitcher
> hits it with the ball?

It is assumed one will move one's bat in the game, and one's pencil in
poetry-making.

> The entire notion that a timeless classic can be a happy accident is
> such a fatalistic approach that it beggars the value of any endeavor.

Not at all.  Since the notion does not contradict the notion that one is
morely likely to make a timeless classic by really working hard.

> Bob Grumman:
> > My only point here was to indicate that it is ambitious to try to do
> > something new regardless of the value of it.<<
>
> The ridiculousness of that is illustrated by Lott's random-key-
> striking response in another email.

Many philistines have done that.  We're obviously not talking about the
literal newness that any text must be (if only because it uses ink no one
else has used), we're talking about significant newness.


>It may be new, and it may be
> that the claim that such random key-striking is a poem is new, but
> it's not got any value just by being new.

Every new thing done by a poet has value.  It either shows other poets
something they can use to profit or reveals a path not worth following.
Also, trying for something new does not mean that's all one does.  I try to
do something new in every poem I compose, but that's not all I do.  (I can't
imagine the value of a poem that doesn't do anything new, but we've been
through all that before, and I refuse to go into it again.)  Anyway, I was
talking about the challenge of trying to do something new.  Whether doing
something new is worthwhile is besides the point.



Intent to make art is not
> enough, any more than intent to get a hit by standing there with your
> bat out hoping the pitcher will hit it with the ball is enough -- nor
> is intent to make a touchdown when playing baseball enough. Neither
> intent alone nor the attempt alone are sufficient -- and you seem to
> be saying that the attempt alone is in fact sufficient.

I'm saying it can be in some cases for some poets.


> Marcus Bales:
> > > ... [you argue] that writing anything, and
> > > especially a timeless classic, takes preparation and critical
> > > analysis: notions that are antithetical to the "happy accident"
> > > school of thought.  You seem to be trying to have it both ways again.
>
> Bob Grumman:
> > Your standard criticism of complex thought.  I am saying that one can
sit
> > down to have fun writing a poem and achieve a great poem.<<
>
> Your thought is not complex in this instance; it is confused. It is
> fun to achieve at a high level in any endeavor -- more fun than to be
> just barely competent and competence is more fun than failure. But if
> one is only out for fun then one has abandoned explicitly any
> pretense toward significance, and nothing great can come of that.

All I can say is that I disagree.

> I am saying that one can sit down to write what one hopes will be a
> great poem and have fun doing it, but one cannot sit down merely to
> have fun with words and produce a great poem. Byron was swinging for
> the fences with _Don Juan_ and not only having fun but making fun of;
> Pope with the _Dunciad_, Aristophanes with _The Frogs_, and so on --
> I'm not saying that funny stuff can't be great or that it's not fun
> to write funny stuff.  What I'm saying is that you have to intend to
> get a hit or else you're just standing there with your bat out.

How about some poet who comes on daffodils, say, and thinks, "Wow, it sure
would be fun to try to capture that in a poem!" and sits down and writes a
poem.  Is it certain it will be mediocre or worse because he did not say to
himself, "Wow, I believe I can compose a Great Masterpiece concerning those
daffodils; in any case, I will certainly try to!"

> Bob Grumman:
> > I was saying having fun without THINKING about the value of one's poem
is
> > one possible way of going about writing poems.<<
>
> Still, it seems to me, one can INTEND to write a valuable poem
> without THINKING about it too much, but one cannot write a valuable
> poem without the intent to do so.  To start a poem with the intent to
> just noodle around is to trivialize the endeavor by starting in a
> place that holds no promise of any significance.

Ah, you are wrong there, I'm certain.

> Bob Grumman:
> > Did either of us say we thought poets should hold a pencil on a piece of
> > paper and hope a wind comes along to push the paper enough interesting
ways
> > for the pencil to spell out a timeless classical poem on it? ...<<
>
> Yes -- you said that you begin with "automatic writing or drawing" --

try not to misquote me so badly, Marcus.  I gave automatic writing or
drawing as WAYS of starting that I use.

> which is nothing but hoping the divine afflatus pushes your pencil
> around.

Actually, I was showing your comparison of a poet who writes without
intending necessarily to create something of imperishable splendor with a
baseball player who stands still when a ball is hit to him is completely
off.

>It's a charming cover story to protect artists from the
> retributions of the powerful: that one is channeling a god; it may
> even be effective from time to time. But unless you're a devotee of
> the "enough monkeys at enough typewriters in enough time" school of
> the creation of _Hamlet_ you don't really believe it.  It's just a
> cover story, a way to keep the authorities and the annoyingly curious
> from bothering the artist so much that he or she has no time or place
> to do art.

Marcus, you're just using this discussion to repeat your boilerplate.

- Bob Grumman:
> > ... I didn't say a poet ought not to have an intent to write well.
> > I said he probably ought not to be thinking that he should write
> > well.<
>
> Well if you're distinguishing between the paralysis of analysis and
> intent, I can agree with you there -- but this is the first time
> you've seemed to acknowledge that an artist has to have any intent
> whatever.

I doubt that.  If I did, it was because some kind of intent has to be taken
for granted.  If we assume someone sits down to write a poem, we have to
assume the intent to make a poem.  The only intent I have been discussing is
the intent to make a Great Poem, which I claim is unnecessary.

>That's interesting!  Is that double-negative locution ("I
> didn't say a poet ought not...") more amenable to you, then, instead
> of "A poet ought to ..."?

You said I said A; I said I did not say A.

> Bob Grumman:
> > Some great players were not concerned with records.  I think the analogy
is
> > to them.<<
>
> I think this is just flat wrong; all great performers are concerned
> with the records because they take their endeavor seriously, and are
> performing in the context of the endeavor.  They know very well, and
> are intimately concerned with, what the records are and where they
> stand in relation to those records.  In part that's what makes
> breaking a record such a difficult feat: the awareness that one is
> taking on greatness; that one is making a claim to greatness for
> oneself by one's very performance. Eventually, great performers have
> no one to compare themselves to except other great performers, and
> the records of those performers, the records of their mutual endeavor
> -- and the notion that a great performer is unconcerned with the
> records of his or her endeavor demeans the great performer and his or
> her performance.
>
> Bob Grumman:
> > What we're arguing ... is whether a poet should have the
> > particular intent to write a great poem whenever he writes a poem.  I
say
> > no.  I think you say or imply yes, though I'm sure you really can't mean
> > that since you've done light verse and silly rhymes for the fun of it.<<
>
> There are two kinds of poems, it seems to me: those written for fun
> and those written for significance -- and whether the poems are funny
> or serious has nothing to do with whether they are "for fun" or "for
> significance".  Sure, I've written verse for the fun of it, both
> funny and serious, and none of that had the intent to be significant;
> but I've also written funny stuff that is very serious indeed and
> certainly intended to be significant.

I could do a Marcus on that, but I'm too worn out by this discussion to
bother.

> You seem to be confusing the notion of _sprezzatura_, that no matter
> how difficult a performance may be, Castiglione's perfect courtier
> will make it look easy (even if that means practicing like the devil
> in private where none can see), with a breezy lack of concern with
> accomplishment at all.
>
> Bob Grumman:
> > ... I might almost agree if you
> > said it's like swinging wildly at every pitch in hopes you'll hit
> > the ball. You won't do well, but you will probably hit a home run
> > every twenty or forty games, assuming your manager leaves you in
> > the line-up.<<
>
> All right, Bob:  your and Ellen's approach seems like swinging wildly
> at every pitch, eyes tightly shut,

why do you add that?

with no intent to make any
> particular play (you won't bunt, you won't hit behind the runner on a
> hit-and-run, you won't foul balls off to get your pitch, and the
> like), sort of hoping that if you make contact with the ball at all
> it'll be something that someone else judges to be a fair ball while
> they yell at you to "run! run!" and you take off for third base from
> the plate.  It's a Special Olympics view of poetry, Bob.

> Marcus Bales

Right, Marcus: it's either try for the highest level of greatness or be
content with the lowest.

I'm out of this . . . whatever it is.

--Bob G.





From themodpoet  Fri Dec 27 14:42:25 2002
From: themodpoet (Lonnie Lopez)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 11:42:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1172 - 9 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20021226134702.9DD97100E1@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <20021227194225.80847.qmail@web40201.mail.yahoo.com>

Please please please, is it possible to respond to
previous postings without including the entire message
history?  Maybe just the revelant parts?  It's really
annoying to read and entire 400 line email with only
two lines that are new.

__________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com



From luap  Fri Dec 27 14:40:39 2002
From: luap (K. Paul Mallasch)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 14:40:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1172 - 9 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20021227194225.80847.qmail@web40201.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10212271439160.28989-100000@sauron.spinweb.net>

> just the revelant parts? 

Yes. And I agree. ;)

-kpaul
mallasch.com/mug/





From Thom424  Fri Dec 27 16:26:21 2002
From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 16:26:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems about Listening to Music
Message-ID: <42EAE38A.52E6BAE3.001A46F6@aol.com>

I'm looking for poems written/inspired by writers who were listening to music, such as "Listening to the Koln Concert" by Robert Bly.  The poem should be overtly about a specific concert, song, composer, etc.

Can you think of a few?

Thanks,

Thom Tammaro
Moorhead, MN



From FanwoodJEL  Fri Dec 27 17:41:02 2002
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 17:41:02 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems about Listening to Music
Message-ID: <1aa.de5a614.2b3e30fe@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/27/2002 4:27:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Thom424 at aol.com writes:

> I'm looking for poems written/inspired by writers who were listening to 
> music, such as "Listening to the Koln Concert" by Robert Bly.  The poem 
> should be overtly about a specific concert, song, composer, etc.
> 
> Can you think of a few?
> 

Good question. Well, for starters, Mark Doty, in _Atlantis_, has one called 
*Grosse Fugue,* after the final (or Grosse Fugue movement) of Beethoven's 
late string quartet, Op. 130. For that matter, I have one called *Cavatina,* 
after the Cavatina movement of the same quartet (in my book, _Mortal, 
Everlasting_). Langston Hughes, it seems to me, has too many to mention. But 
maybe I'm just dreaming that. Ellen Bryant Voigt, in Two Trees, has one 
called *_At The Piano_* (Bach), and Marianne Boruch has one in _Descendant_ 
called *Wallace Stevens and Charles Ives Talk Shop in Farmington, Maine. 
There have to be zillions more. 
Jeffrey Levine 
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From tadrichards  Fri Dec 27 17:44:26 2002
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 17:44:26 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems about Listening to Music
References: <42EAE38A.52E6BAE3.001A46F6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004701c2adf9$82ba3ae0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Billy Collins' poem about chopping parsley and listening to Art Blakey's
Three Blind Mice.

Do you count poems in which the characters are listening to a particular
piece of music? I have a few of those I'd be glad to backchannel to you.


----- Original Message -----
From: <Thom424 at aol.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, December 27, 2002 4:26 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poems about Listening to Music


> I'm looking for poems written/inspired by writers who were listening to
music, such as "Listening to the Koln Concert" by Robert Bly.  The poem
should be overtly about a specific concert, song, composer, etc.
>
> Can you think of a few?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Thom Tammaro
> Moorhead, MN
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From MillB  Fri Dec 27 17:50:24 2002
From: MillB (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 17:50:24 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems about Listening to Music
Message-ID: <60.2b131c5e.2b3e3330@aol.com>

Greetings--

THE JAZZ POETRY ANTHOLOGY (co-edited with Yusef Komunyakaa) volumes one and 
two offer numerous examples.

Cheers,

Mill



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From wwmorgan  Fri Dec 27 17:55:39 2002
From: wwmorgan (Bill Morgan)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 16:55:39 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems about Listening to Music
In-Reply-To: <42EAE38A.52E6BAE3.001A46F6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.20021227165459.0093b7a0@mail.ilstu.edu>

Adrienne Rich's "The Ninth Symphony of Beethoven at Last Understood as a
Sexual Message" from *Diving Into the Wreck*.  

At 04:26 PM 12/27/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>I'm looking for poems written/inspired by writers who were listening to 
>music, such as "Listening to the Koln Concert" by Robert Bly.  The poem 
>should be overtly about a specific concert, song, composer, etc.
>
>Can you think of a few?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Thom Tammaro
>Moorhead, MN
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





From Rsgwynn1  Fri Dec 27 19:17:40 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 19:17:40 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems about Listening to Music
Message-ID: <196.130c67ac.2b3e47a4@cs.com>

Browning's "Abt Vogler" and "A Toccata of Gallupi's."
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From bobgrumman  Fri Dec 27 20:11:53 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 20:11:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1172 - 9 msgs
References: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10212271439160.28989-100000@sauron.spinweb.net>
Message-ID: <008801c2ae0e$1c1e05e0$be1afea9@j1c1k6>

> > just the revelant parts?
>
> Yes. And I agree. ;)
>
> -kpaul
> mallasch.com/mug/

I try to but sometimes forget, or think I've deleted but haven't.  Sometimes
I feel obligated to leave the entire contents of a post I've responded only
briefly to.  Then I try to remember to indicate that "and that's all I have
to say about the following," of the like.

Then there are those who snip everything except their answer.  That's worse.

I think we have to be patient and tolerant.  Many of us--certainly I--treat
forums like this as mostly breezy conversation, so aren't as careful as we
might be.  We'd post a lot less (great, I know many of you would say) if we
had to make sure of being considerate, consistent, politically-correct,
etc., etc.

--Bob G.




From luap  Fri Dec 27 21:02:06 2002
From: luap (K. Paul Mallasch)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 2002 21:02:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1172 - 9 msgs
In-Reply-To: <008801c2ae0e$1c1e05e0$be1afea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10212272059270.3058-100000@sauron.spinweb.net>

I was just trying to be witty by shortening her orig post to just a few
words. 

Did I fail because *I was trying* - too hard or otherwise? ;)

-kpaul
mallasch.com

p.s. Sorry if I offended ya with my orig reply to her post. Wasn't my
intent. I don't there's a noise/signal prob on this list, imho...

On Fri, 27 Dec 2002, Bob Grumman wrote:

> > > just the revelant parts?
> >
> > Yes. And I agree. ;)
> >
> > -kpaul
> > mallasch.com/mug/
> 
> I try to but sometimes forget, or think I've deleted but haven't.  Sometimes
> I feel obligated to leave the entire contents of a post I've responded only
> briefly to.  Then I try to remember to indicate that "and that's all I have
> to say about the following," of the like.
> 
> Then there are those who snip everything except their answer.  That's worse.
> 
> I think we have to be patient and tolerant.  Many of us--certainly I--treat
> forums like this as mostly breezy conversation, so aren't as careful as we
> might be.  We'd post a lot less (great, I know many of you would say) if we
> had to make sure of being considerate, consistent, politically-correct,
> etc., etc.
> 
> --Bob G.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From ron.silliman  Mon Dec 30 06:53:58 2002
From: ron.silliman (Ron)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 06:53:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] 10,000 visitors to the Blog
Message-ID: <000001c2affa$2824cb60$800ff243@Dell>

Poetry & blogging:
trends emerge

The omnipresence of politics in poetry --
reading the Australian journal Overland
& Lorine Niedecker

What is meaning
& how does it manifest itself in poetry?

Chris Stroffolino:
What's hiding under the term "irony"

Bad writing:
incompetence or something more cynical?

The Dark Day:
language as evidence

A new issue of Shiny:
The NY School in 2002
+ Lisa Jarnot's "Hound Pastoral"

Charles Bernstein &/or X.J. Kennedy:
A question of context from Annie Finch
with a glance at Paul Celan

Peter Ganick's tend.field
An extremophile's poetics

Close reading Jennifer Moxley

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/

10,000 visitors in 2002






From JforJames  Mon Dec 30 15:15:43 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 15:15:43 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tarpaulin Sky
Message-ID: <68.2add57eb.2b42036f@aol.com>

Tarpaulin Sky seeks submissions of highest quality poetry and prose for the
Spring 2003 issue.

Complete guidelines can be found at www.tarpaulinsky.com where the Winter
2002 Issue is currently online.

We are pleased to offer an eclectic mix of poetry (with recordings in Real
Audio of several poets reading their work) and prose by some of today's best
writers. Many of our contributors are widely published. Some are the new
generation. Four are being published for the first time.

A crosscut of contributors in the current issue:

Barbara DeCesare, who has published in over 45 journals nationwide,
including  "The Alaska Quarterly Review," "The Birmingham Poetry Review,"
"River Styx" and  "Gargoyle."

Tony Eprile, author of "Temporary Sojourner and Other South African
Stories."

Barry Gifford, whose books of poetry include "Replies to Wang Wei,"
"Flaubert at Key West," "Ghosts No Horse Can Carry," "Giotto's Circle," and
others. Gifford co-wrote with David Lynch the screenplay for "Lost Highway."
Gifford's novels include "Wyoming," "The Sinaloa Story," "Night People,"
"Wild at Heart," and others.

Louis Jenkins, whose books of poetry include "The Winter Road," "Just Above
Water," "Nice Fish: New and Selected Poems," and others.. Two of his prose
poems were published in "The Best American Poetry, 1999."

John Philpin, one of the first independent criminal profilers in the United
States, author numerous books both fiction and nonfiction, including "Beyond
Murder" (with John Donnelly), "Stalemate," "The Prettiest Feathers" (with
Patricia Sierra), "Tunnel of Night" (with Patricia Sierra), "Dreams in the
Key of Blue," "The Murder Channel," and "J.D." (with Patricia Sierra.) He
has appeared on "Unsolved Mysteries," "The Geoff Metcalf Show," "Inside
Edition," "The Jim Bohannon Show," "America's Most Wanted," "Chronicle,"
"Northwest Afternoon," "20/20 Downtown," the CBC's "As It Happens," and
served as guest commentator on Court TV's "Prime Time Justice."

Julianna Spallholz, who will soon be receiving her MFA from Goddard College
in Plainfield, Vermont.

Dag T. Straumsv?g, whose first book of poems, "Eg Er Simen Gut," was
published in 1999 by Aschehoug. His poems were included in the anthology
"Kaf?dikt." He is currently working on his second book, which will be
published in 2003.

Mark Turpin, whose first full-length collection of poems, "Hammer,"  will be
published by Sarabande Books in June, 2003. His poems have appeared in "The
Paris Review," "The Threepenny Review," "Ploughshares" and elsewhere. In
1997 he received a Whiting Award, and this Labor Day 2002 his poem "The Box"
was read for the occasion on "The Lehrer News Hour."

Connie Wanek, author of two books of poems, "Bonfire," and the new "Hartley
Field." Her poems have appeared in "Poetry," "The Atlantic Monthly," "The
Virginia Quarterly Review," "Quarterly West," and many other publications.

Anne Winters, whose books of poetry include "The Key to the City," poems
nominated for the National Book Critics Circle prize, and of "Salamander,"
translations of French poetry, which won "Poetry Magazine"'s Glatstein
Award. Her poems, essays, and translations have appeared in "Paris Review,"
"The New Yorker," "The New Republic," "Poetry," "Yale Review," and
elsewhere.)

And the list goes on. Read the current issue at www.tarpaulinsky.com. Enjoy!
Subscribe. Submit!





From Rsgwynn1  Mon Dec 30 16:41:45 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 16:41:45 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Writer's Almanac 12/30
Message-ID: <126.1e35e3a6.2b421799@cs.com>

I just had the rude but not uncomfortable shock of hearing one of my poems 
read by Garrison Keillor.  A nice surprise, but I wish someone had told me in 
advance!

http://almanac.mpr.org/docs/02_12_30.htm#monday
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From reneea  Mon Dec 30 19:40:55 2002
From: reneea (Renee Ashley)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 19:40:55 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Writer's Almanac 12/30
References: <126.1e35e3a6.2b421799@cs.com>
Message-ID: <002801c2b065$485969c0$049e598a@oemcomputer>

That's a very good thing! (Not the rude, the reading!)  You're lucky you caught it!  I think that if you ask them for a tape they'll send you one.  The guy's turning into a poetry power.
Renee
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 4:41 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Writer's Almanac 12/30


  I just had the rude but not uncomfortable shock of hearing one of my poems read by Garrison Keillor.  A nice surprise, but I wish someone had told me in advance!

  http://almanac.mpr.org/docs/02_12_30.htm#monday 
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From Rsgwynn1  Mon Dec 30 19:51:12 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 19:51:12 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Writer's Almanac 12/30
Message-ID: <103.22e8972d.2b424400@cs.com>

In a message dated 12/30/2002 6:38:33 PM Central Standard Time, 
reneea at bellatlantic.net writes: 
> That's a very good thing! (Not the rude, the reading!)  You're lucky you 
> caught it!  I think that if you ask them for a tape they'll send you one.  
> The guy's turning into a poetry power.
>  Renee
> 
Yeah, it's sure nice to tap into the consciousness of a few of our fellow 
citizens, if only for a couple of minutes.
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From FanwoodJEL  Mon Dec 30 20:00:43 2002
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 20:00:43 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Writer's Almanac 12/30
Message-ID: <20.5ee0971.2b42463b@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/30/2002 7:51:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes:

> Yeah, it's sure nice to tap into the consciousness of a few of our fellow 
> citizens, if only for a couple of minutes. 


Actually, RS, you have everlasting fame. Read along silently as GK reads 
aloud:
<A HREF="http://almanac.mpr.org/docs/02_12_30.htm">http://almanac.mpr.org/docs/02_12_30.htm</A> 

Jeffrey Levine
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From JforJames  Mon Dec 30 20:28:33 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 20:28:33 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tinfish Press Newsletter
Message-ID: <69.329a57c0.2b424cc1@aol.com>

Tinfish Press Newsletter and special offer: January, 2002


Tinfish Press has been exceedingly busy during the past couple of years.
Among our publications in that time number several issues of the journal,
seven chapbooks of poetry and critical prose, and a full length book with
Subpress. Each publication features surprising and original work from the
Pacific region, along with exquisite designs by young Hawai`i designers. We'
re very proud of our list, and want to tell you about it.

To see more about the following titles and others, check our website:
http://maven.english.hawaii.edu/tinfish

Alchemies of Distance is Caroline Sinavaiana-Gabbard's first book of poetry.
She writes out of the traditions of Samoa, the American South, and Tibetan
Buddhism (among others), offering her reader incisive critiques of
contemporary culture and spiritual commentary leavened with sharp wit. The
cover design is by Stuart Henley, of the UH Department of Art. $12 from
Subpress.

Sista Tongue, by Lisa Linn Kanae, is Tinfish's best-selling chapbook ever.
Kanae has written an absorbing memoir/academic essay about growing up a
pidgin speaker in Hawai`i. She makes parallels between the ways pidgin
speakers and children with "speech defects" are treated. A highly
informative and touching book. Designed by Kristin Gonzales. $10 from
Tinfish Press.

3 Vietnamese Poets, translated by Linh Dinh, with an introduction by the
translator. A wonderful sampling of work by contemporary poets writing in
Vietnamese. A strangely under-achieving seller on our list, but well worth
the $9. The poetry and design rock! Designed by Stuart Henley. From Tinfish.

Hamburger, by Steve Carll, is a chapbook that comes inside a foil wrapper. A
series of scathing and witty poems about meat, in a meaty package. Our most
fondled piece of work. Designed by Anne Sakutori, $5 from Tinfish.

Piece of Work is Murray Edmond's homage both to his mother and to the 20th
century history of New Zealand. Edmond is not well known in the United
States, but his poetry is among the best being written in New Zealand. He is
also a dramaturge and teacher at the University of Auckland. Designed by Ken
Lincoln. $7 from Tinfish.

Clutch and Hockey Love Letters, by Sawako Nakayasu, include poems about
hockey, about gender, about love, designed exquisitely by Jung Kim. $7 from
Tinfish.

Living Pidgin: Contemplations on Pidgin Culture is Lee Tonouchi's collected
critical works on his life and work as "da pidgin guerrilla." Includes
talks, essays, and concrete poems. "Standard english to me is to me like
jumbo shrimp and military intelligence, one oxymoron, cuz we know from
everyday experience dat english is not really standard-ees just our
artificial attempt to classify-fo` attach order to dat which cannot be
ordered." A must read for anyone interested in language, Hawai`i's culture,
or who simply wants wit with wisdom. $10 from Tinfish.

Tinfish 12 features work by writers from Hawai`I, New Zealand, Australia,
and the west coast of the American continent. Cover designed back to front
by Jung Kim; insides by Stuart Henley. $8 from Tinfish. Copies of Tinfish 11
are still available, with beautiful one of a kind covers by Chris Churchill.

Running a small press is an expensive business (or anti-business). The
expenses are real, running in the thousands of dollars each year, and the
gains less tangible. For that reason, we ask that you consider purchasing
some Tinfish Press publications during this holiday season. Buy three
publications directly from the press and get a fourth (less expensive) one
free. Take a one day espresso fast and order even more. Each book bought and
paid for gets us closer to the next good book. Please send this notice along
to your friends.

Please write checks to Tinfish and send to Susan M. Schultz, 47-728 Hui Kelu
Street #9, Kaneohe, HI 96744, or order through Ron Cox at Native Books
(coxr at hawaii.edu). If you're not in the USA, the second option includes
credit card access. Most titles can be found on amazon.com; please use them
as a last resort.



Aloha,

Susan M. Schultz

Editor/Publisher

Schultz at hawaii.rr.com




From JforJames  Mon Dec 30 20:33:07 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 20:33:07 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Writer's Almanac 12/30
Message-ID: <19f.e39dec5.2b424dd3@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/30/02 4:42:48 PM Eastern Standard Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
writes:

> shock of hearing one of my poems 
>  read by Garrison Keillor. 
Bravo Sam & Garrison. His little segments are a national
treasure for those who care about our sullen craft & art.
I'm indebted to GK for introducing me to a lovely Longfellow
poem, The Fire of Driftwood. Worth looking up and reading
this time of year.
Finnegan



From tadrichards  Mon Dec 30 22:12:23 2002
From: tadrichards (TheOldMole)
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 22:12:23 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Writer's Almanac 12/30
References: <126.1e35e3a6.2b421799@cs.com>
Message-ID: <008701c2b07a$70b4c8f0$6401a8c0@nonerq60gu2nq2>

Congratulations, Sam!

Tad Richards
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Monday, December 30, 2002 4:41 PM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Writer's Almanac 12/30


  I just had the rude but not uncomfortable shock of hearing one of my poems read by Garrison Keillor.  A nice surprise, but I wish someone had told me in advance!

  http://almanac.mpr.org/docs/02_12_30.htm#monday 
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From JforJames  Tue Dec 31 11:47:54 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 11:47:54 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ploughshares Emerging Writers Issue
Message-ID: <47.28414608.2b43243a@aol.com>

Ploughshares Emerging Writers Issue 

http://www.pshares.org/submissions/page.cfm?intContentID=77



From JforJames  Tue Dec 31 11:58:41 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 11:58:41 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Adirondack Review
Message-ID: <155.199db5cf.2b4326c1@aol.com>

http://www.adirondackreview.org/



From JforJames  Tue Dec 31 12:11:31 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 12:11:31 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] ars longo & vita longo
Message-ID: <1a6.e35db57.2b4329c3@aol.com>

Again I am returned to a beloved sentence from Henry Miller, "And Titian at 
78, just beginning to get a grip on his life, his art." Homage to the 
lengthening arc of creativity.
(quoted from C. D. Wright in her introduction to Ploughshares, Winter '02-03, 
an issue that she guest edited.)

Here's to getting a good grip on one's life & one's art in 2003.
Finnegan



From barry.spacks  Tue Dec 31 13:17:19 2002
From: barry.spacks (Barry Spacks)
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 10:17:19 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Speed of a flying radio
In-Reply-To: <20021231165401.B8B7E100C5@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20021231100844.00a024c0@incoming.verizon.net>


>
>Rsgwynn wrote:
>
>I just had the rude but not uncomfortable shock of hearing one of my poems
>read by Garrison Keillor.  A nice surprise, but I wish someone had told me in
>advance!

same thing happened to me recently, Sam, but after came a telephone call
explaining they been hitting me up for a permission at a defunct e-address,
and then followed a tape of that week's shows and an (ahem) honorarium --
these Minnesota folks are just as miraculously pleasant as we've learned to
expect from our supervised visits to Lake Woebegone.

-- barry

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From JforJames  Sun Dec  1 13:40:41 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 13:40:41 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Narrative vs. Lyric (was: Mason plug)
Message-ID: <28.309b48ec.2b1bb1a9@aol.com>

In a message dated 11/30/02 5:54:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
writes:

> Homer's ashes roll over.
>  
>  Primitive art is communal.  Narrative and lyric are communal by nature and 
>  history; lyric is not.
All of the Homers' ashes, don't you mean? I don't see why it's suddenly
not communal when that Greek guy/gal, as pictured on the period earthenware
holding a lyre, chose to sing a lyric. Did the people gathered round get up 
and leave? And even if they did, the song was surely meant for empathetic
ears beyond those of  the singer:  Solon (the Wise) was supposed to have said 
of a song/poem by Sappho, "Let me learn this and then die." (paraphrase 
of a translation that may be entirely apocryphal).
Anyway, it seems clear to me, that some (including Mason?) see narrative 
poetry as the corrective for what they see in poetry as literary 
self-absorption. 
Some language poetry and postmo critics have criticized the lyric for
its reliance on a speaker's "voice" that conveys authenticity of experience. 
(The po lil lyric is getting banged from both sides.) And that's fine; and 
perhaps 
a fair assessment. But the lyric poem itself is hardly to blame...lyric poems
doesn't navel-gaze, poets do. 
Finnegan



From Rsgwynn1  Sun Dec  1 16:37:57 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 16:37:57 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Narrative vs. Lyric (was: Mason plug)
Message-ID: <ad.2713b27d.2b1bdb35@cs.com>

In a message dated 12/1/2002 1:13:51 PM Central Standard Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes: 
> All of the Homers' ashes, don't you mean? I don't see why it's suddenly
> not communal when that Greek guy/gal, as pictured on the period earthenware
> holding a lyre, chose to sing a lyric.

My Alma-Tadema print, "A Reading from Homer," has the same pose.
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From ganesha  Sun Dec  1 23:29:06 2002
From: ganesha (ganesha)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:29:06 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] re: Lilly $$$
References: <26.319cc5eb.2b157b50@aol.com>
Message-ID: <008601c299bb$5b9d3a40$65864cca@jross3>

Yeah -- it's our culture, too: someone/thing must take the blame; or,
someone/thing is to blame.  No one seems to think that "shit just happens",
despite best efforts.  sigh.

Zan

----- Original Message -----
From: <JforJames at aol.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2002 9:35 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] re: Lilly $$$


> In a message dated 11/25/02 7:32:18 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes:
>
> > Lawsuits
> >  have been filed by parents across the country who are
> >  convinced that their children suffered severe neurological
> >  damage from the mercury in the vaccines. Talking to them
> >  can be heartbreaking.
> After appropriate coaching from the trial lawyers. These
> mega-class actions are often greedy plays by "a corporation
> of attorneys' who seem to think that everything that turns
> out badly is someone's fault.
> Finnegan
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From ron.silliman  Mon Dec  2 07:28:13 2002
From: ron.silliman (Ron)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 07:28:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Of late on the Blog
Message-ID: <000001c299fe$4d2c5890$0242c143@Dell>

Robert Kelly & the poetics of sound

"Style is Death":
Robert Kelly Finding the Measure

A poetics of procedure:
Robert Kelly's Axon Dendron Tree

A poetics of measure:
Robert Kelly's Songs I-XXX

A note & a correction

A Projectivist journal in 2002:
Kenneth Warren's House Organ

The possibilities of micropublishing:
Sylvester Pollet's Backwoods Broadsides
-- with a look to John Taggart

George Stanley:
A Tall, Serious Girl

Julia Spahr:
Articulation vs. argument

Ruth Lilly's Gift to Poetry:
The limits of $100 million

http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/











From JforJames  Mon Dec  2 12:47:17 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 12:47:17 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] New(s) from the Zoo, 12/2/02
Message-ID: <9b.3186ab8d.2b1cf6a5@aol.com>

Subj:    New(s) from the Zoo, 12/2/02
Date:   12/2/02 12:41:39 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:   editors at zoopress.org (Zoo Press)
To: editors at zoopress.org (Zoo Press)

1) All fall books are available and for sale:

  - The year 2001 Paris Review Prize in Poetry winner, Bryan Dietrich's
KRYPTON NIGHTS (http://zoopress.org/Dietrich.html ).

  - Terese Svoboda's TREASON (http://zoopress.org/Svoboda.html)

  - Elena Karina Byrne's THE FLAMMABLE BIRD (http://zoopress.org/Byrne.html)

  - Don Share's UNION (http://zoopress.org/Share.html)



2) Read about Zoo's new fiction program:
(http://www.zoopress.org/zoo_fiction.html)



3) See Edward Hirsch's review of Kathy Fagan's THE CHARM is his column,
Poets Choice in the Washington Post
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A48790-2002Nov27.html)



4) See pictures from Zoo Press's anniversary bash at New York's National
Arts Club on November 1st (http://www.zoopress.org/zoo_event.html ).



5) As everyone now knows by now, Ruth Stone won this year's National Book
Award for poetry. See selections of her poems along with selections from
many other important contemporary American poets in the excellent Columbia
University Press anthology, THE EXTRAORDINARY TIDE: NEW POETRY BY AMERICAN
WOMEN edited by Erin Belieu and Susan Aizenberg
(http://www.columbia.edu/cu/cup/catalog/data/023111/0231119623.HTM ).



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From paul.lake  Mon Dec  2 12:59:00 2002
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 11:59:00 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Flyway
Message-ID: <BA10FB84.3BBA%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

I just got an email from something called the Flyway Literary Review,
supposedly from the English Dept. of Iowa State University, advertising a
special Arab-American issue.  I haven't opened the attachment, for fear of a
possible virus, after noting that "Flyway" might not be the right literary
review to have a special issue on Arab-American work.

Is the journal legit?

Paul Lake




From gmguddi  Mon Dec  2 13:05:04 2002
From: gmguddi (Gabriel Gudding)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 12:05:04 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Flyway
In-Reply-To: <BA10FB84.3BBA%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.0.20021202120334.018c6ff8@mail.ilstu.edu>

Paul, _Flyway_ is indeed a legit journal. I thought they were defunct 
though. They must be up and running again. And yes the old Flyway flew out 
of Iowa State.

Gabe

At 11:59 AM 12/2/2002 -0600, Paul Lake wrote:
>I just got an email from something called the Flyway Literary Review,
>supposedly from the English Dept. of Iowa State University, advertising a
>special Arab-American issue.  I haven't opened the attachment, for fear of a
>possible virus, after noting that "Flyway" might not be the right literary
>review to have a special issue on Arab-American work.
>
>Is the journal legit?
>
>Paul Lake
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

Gabriel Gudding
Assistant Professor
Department of English
Illinois State University
Normal, IL  61790
office 309.438.5284
home 309.828.8377

http://www.pitt.edu/~press/2002/gudding.html




From hruggier  Mon Dec  2 13:29:32 2002
From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 13:29:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Flyway
References: <BA10FB84.3BBA%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <3DEBA68C.F1E4D420@localnet.com>

Flyweight?

Paul Lake wrote:

> I just got an email from something called the Flyway Literary Review,
> supposedly from the English Dept. of Iowa State University, advertising a
> special Arab-American issue.  I haven't opened the attachment, for fear of a
> possible virus, after noting that "Flyway" might not be the right literary
> review to have a special issue on Arab-American work.
>
> Is the journal legit?
>
> Paul Lake
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From cindymonroe  Mon Dec  2 13:44:30 2002
From: cindymonroe (cindymonroe)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 13:44:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] narrative vs lyric and empathy
References: <20021201170102.ABB5110201@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <001801c29a32$db54b840$3e133ccc@net>

Finnegan wrote:

<Anyway, it seems clear to me, that some (including Mason?) see narrative
poetry as the corrective for what they see in poetry as literary
self-absorption.>

Yes, I actually do think that the narrative is a way to escape
self-absorption, but only if the "object of empathy" in the narrative is not
the writer. And there's no faking allowed! Hang in here with me for a minute
while I explain. The matter of empathy in the narrative vs the lyric really
centers on the different motivations of writers. According to Webster's,
empathy is simply "the capacity for participation in another's feelings or
ideas." The question is:  "whose feelings or ideas are intended to be the
object of empathy?"  The answer determines voice and depends on what you are
trying to accomplish, which requires knowing why you write. Not everyone has
the same reasons, hence, all the disagreement.

Some writers feel that their own life events, feelings, speculations and/or
linguistic experiments are sufficiently unique and interesting as to warrant
recordation. Regardless of form or mode, the object of empathy in such work
is always the same--the writer himself. I happen to consider my own grief,
joy, etc. to be both private and mundane. This is why, even though I have
decided that I want to tell stories in poetic form, I am not interested in
telling the "story of me," i.e. making myself the object of empathy. This
does not mean that personal experience and emotions don't inform my
narrative poetry, only that the objects of empathy in my work really are
"somebody-elses"-- tragic or comedic characters. If I do my job well, this
provides an escape from self for both me and the reader. That's the reason I
write. It's the reason I read. And it's the reason the narrative endures.

Cindy M.






From JforJames  Mon Dec  2 15:48:54 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 15:48:54 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] narrative vs lyric and empathy
Message-ID: <11f.1aa40d11.2b1d2136@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/2/02 1:44:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
cindymonroe at sbcglobal.net writes:

> Anyway, it seems clear to me, that some (including Mason?) see narrative
>  poetry as the corrective for what they see in poetry as literary
>  self-absorption.>
>  
>  Yes, I actually do think that the narrative is a way to escape
>  self-absorption, but only if the "object of empathy" in the narrative is 
not
>  the writer. And there's no faking allowed! Hang in here with me for a 
minute
>  while I explain. The matter of empathy in the narrative vs the lyric really
>  centers on the different motivations of writers. According to Webster's,
>  empathy is simply "the capacity for participation in another's feelings or
>  ideas." The question is:  "whose feelings or ideas are intended to be the
>  object of empathy?"  The answer determines voice and depends on what you 
are
>  trying to accomplish, which requires knowing why you write. Not everyone 
has
>  the same reasons, hence, all the disagreement.
>  
>  Some writers feel that their own life events, feelings, speculations and/or
>  linguistic experiments are sufficiently unique and interesting as to 
warrant
>  recordation. Regardless of form or mode, the object of empathy in such work
>  is always the same--the writer himself. I happen to consider my own grief,
>  joy, etc. to be both private and mundane. This is why, even though I have
>  decided that I want to tell stories in poetic form, I am not interested in
>  telling the "story of me," i.e. making myself the object of empathy. This
>  does not mean that personal experience and emotions don't inform my
>  narrative poetry, only that the objects of empathy in my work really are
>  "somebody-elses"-- tragic or comedic characters. If I do my job well, this
>  provides an escape from self for both me and the reader. That's the reason 
I
>  write. It's the reason I read. And it's the reason the narrative endures.
>  
Cindy,
In case I've come off wrong, I want to say I appreciate the narrative mode 
as much as anyone. I'm sure I'm starting to sound like a recorded loop here, 
but what I can't understand is how narrative poetry has any "special claim" 
to empathy. 
Re your perspective: I don't really see the importance of the writer
in what you term the "object of empathy." The poem is written from the 
voice of a speaker (maybe a person we could look up in the phone 
book or maybe not) or a character (based on someone's real life or
maybe not) is evoked; and that speaker/character will, at times, 
create an empathetic response in us (the readers). We read and
we say to ourselves, "I know what it is to feel ___________;
I have experienced that _________, too"  In empathy, from a 
writer's point of view, it's not the object of but the quality of the 
response in the reader, the complexity or weight of what is 
felt/experienced, that is important. The degree of autobiography 
that the writer has employed in the poem has nothing to do with 
the poem's ability to summons an empathetic response. 
Finnegan



From JforJames  Mon Dec  2 15:56:41 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 15:56:41 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Norton Poets Online
Message-ID: <b9.2ad0c747.2b1d2309@aol.com>

Subj:    Norton Poets Online Newsletter
Date:   12/2/02 3:52:27 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:   nvictor at WWNORTON.com (Victor, Nomi)
To: poetry at wwnorton.biglist.com ('poetry at wwnorton.biglist.com')


> http://www.nortonpoets.com
> 
> -----------
> 
> 
> **New in the Poet's Workshop **
> Courage
> by Molly Peacock
> 
> **New in paperback**
> A. R. Ammmons, A COAST OF TREES
> A. R. Ammons, GARBAGE
> 
> 
> 
> **Poem of the Month: "Rapids" by A. R. Ammons**
> 
> Fall's leaves are redder than
> spring's flowers, have no pollen,
> and also sometimes fly, as the wind
> schools them out or down in shoals
> or droves: though I
> have not been here long, I can
> look up at the sky at night and tell
> how things are likely to go for 
> the next hundred million years:
> the universe will probably not find
> a way to vanish nor I
> in all that time reappear.
> 
> 
> ? 1981 by A. R. Ammons
> 
> 
> 

--+------------------------------------------------------------------
You are subscribed as: jforjames at aol.com
To unsubscribe, go to: 
http://wwnorton.biglist.com/unsub.php/poetry/jforjames at aol.com
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From Rsgwynn1  Mon Dec  2 19:30:13 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 19:30:13 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cow Poets Online
Message-ID: <39.310c8e13.2b1d5515@cs.com>

Artist Hopes Dairy Herd Makes Poetry

December 2, 2002
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS 






Filed at 2:10 p.m. ET 

PURCHASE, N.Y. (AP) -- Any artist can paint cows. Nathan
Banks paints ON cows. 

Banks, a 22-year-old student at Purchase College, painted
single words (from ``a'' to ``existential'') on the flanks
of about 60 cows near his upstate New York home, then let
them wander around to see if they could compose poetry. 

So Holsteins and Jerseys named Elsie and Maggie came up
with phrases like ``eccentric art,'' ``performance as cow
environment'' and Banks' own favorite, ``organic conceptual
art as poetry.'' 

One animal seemed especially inspired -- with ``away''
written on her side, she broke loose from the herd for a
while. 

The ``Cow Project,'' with videotape and photos of the
bovine bards, goes on display at the college Thursday. 

``The idea is that the artist sets up the situation and
then it carries through on its own,'' Banks said in an
interview last week at his tiny student's studio. 

The entire three-day episode was documented by Banks and a
couple of dozen other students, who were bused up to
Delaware County, in the northern foothills of the
Catskills, for the mid-September happening. 

``It was peculiar,'' said Gerry Ruestow, who let Banks use
so-called ``tail paint'' -- a harmless substance that
eventually flakes off -- on his dairy herd in Sidney
Center. ``Those art people tend to do things that are a
little bit outside the box. We did get some people who
wandered by to see what the crazies up the road were
doing.'' 

Banks, a senior, said the project cost him about $1,000 and
he had to overcome a few obstacles. Half a dozen dairy
farmers turned him down before Ruestow and his wife Susan,
Banks' old music teacher, agreed to let him use their
Fermata Farm. 

``There was a big concern that the cows would be stressed
and give less milk,'' Banks said. Gerry Ruestow said milk
production actually went up a bit, ``probably because the
cows were a bit more active. The cows were as interested in
the observers as the observers were in the cows.'' 

Working around the milking schedule, Banks painted the
words in foot-tall blue and orange letters while the cows
were in their stalls. He wanted to put a word on each side
of every cow, but some of the animals were skittish about
it and ended up with just one word. 

``They're used to being milked from the same side all the
time and they didn't like being approached on the other
side,'' Banks said. 

Then there were the necessary touchups. Some cows messed up
their words when they lay down, or swished their tail, or
got a little cow pie on them. 

``I'd repaint, right over the manure,'' Banks said.


Banks' previous performance art projects include living in
an elevator for 32 hours and imitating male-pattern
baldness by gradually shaving and thinning his hair. 

He said he got the idea for the cow project when he read
about Dada artists dropping cut-up newspapers on the floor
to see what poetry was formed. 

He picked most of the words with his eyes closed, taking
whatever word was closest when he put a finger down on a
page of an art history textbook. He added a few, like the
name of the farm and his old nickname, ``Nater,'' which he
uses to sign his works. 

Now Banks is editing the videotape and arranging the
photographs for the exhibit. His art student schoolmates'
notations of the cow poetry are collected in four binders. 

Visitors to the exhibit will be encouraged to make their
own cow poetry by taking a tiny cardboard cow, writing a
word on it and setting it down on the vibrating board from
an old electric football game so it can wander and interact
with other cows. 

On opening night, there will also be refreshments, in the
form of cow-shaped cookies. And milk. 
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From mandolin  Mon Dec  2 20:22:30 2002
From: mandolin (Michael Snider)
Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 20:22:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cow Poets Online
In-Reply-To: <39.310c8e13.2b1d5515@cs.com>
Message-ID: <B11F1907-065D-11D7-BCA6-000393C29586@mac.com>

On Monday, December 2, 2002, at 07:30  PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

> Filed at 2:10 p.m. ET
>
> PURCHASE, N.Y. (AP) -- Any artist can paint cows. Nathan
> Banks paints ON cows.
>

Gives a new meaning to bucolic poetry, eh?




From grahamd  Tue Dec  3 01:04:55 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 00:04:55 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] narrative vs lyric and empathy
Message-ID: <200212030603.gB363grn014334@mx7.mx.voyager.net>

I come to this whole discussion from the perspective of someone very
interested in the uses of autobiography and the lyric-I in poetry. 
(Consider my often-plugged book plugged again here.)  While working on this
issue I've become convinced that the usual knock against lyric-I poems
(excessive self-absorption), is much too sweeping and simplistic.  

The proof, I would have thought, is in the anthologies:  century after
century of lyric poems that do more than whine about the writer's personal
life, or merely navel-gaze.  That's one reason I mentioned Whitman's "Drum
Taps" poems a while ago--as examples of often highly lyrical poems that
clearly open outward, and betray little stink of solipsism.  (Odd that
Whitman generally has a reputation for excessive personality, when in fact
his poems tell us very little about his life or intimacies.)

In any case, I'm still not sure what the distinction between narrative and
lyric tells us, if anything, about these issues.  Seems clear to me that a
narrative can be blinkered and navel-gazing just as a lyric can.  I love
narrative poetry, too, but I'm not convinced that inventing character is
necessarily a hedge against a limited worldview, triviality, self-enclosure,
and what have you.  

Whether we're seeing a particular flourishing of navel-gazing in
contemporary poetry these days is another question, but I don't think it's
helpful to blame it (if it exists) on the sub-genre.  As Finnegan says,
blame the poets instead.  

And--here's the crucial point, I think--don't forget about all the
contempories who are doing interesting and un-self-enclosed work in the
lyric mode or variants thereof.  We can all supply our own lists, I'm sure. 
But how about a poem like Etheridge Knight's "The Idea of Ancestry"?  I
can't imagine a more personal poem, really, nor one that is less open to the
charge of mere navel-gazing.  

Lots of eyebrows lift when someone mentions yet another poem about the
poet's family--but I think Knight's poem is one example of how even that
risky subject can be transformed into something worthwhile.  

     ?

     The Idea of Ancestry
     Etheridge Knight

     1

     Taped to the wall of my cell are 47 pictures: 47 black
     faces: my father, mother, grandmothers (1 dead), grand-
     fathers (both dead), brothers, sisters, uncles, aunts,
     cousins (1st and 2nd), nieces, and nephews.  They stare
     across the space at me sprawling on my bunk.  I know
     their dark eyes, they know mine.  I know their style,
     they know mine.  I am all of them, they are all of me;
     they are farmers, I am a thief, I am me, they are thee.

     I have at one time or another been in love with my mother,
     1 grandmother, 2 sisters, 2 aunts (1 went to the asylum),
     and 5 cousins.  I am now in love with a 7-yr-old niece
     (she sends me letters in large block print, and
     her picture is the only one that smiles at me).

     I have the same name as 1 grandfather, 3 cousins, 3 nephews,
     and 1 uncle. The uncle disappeared when he was 15, just took
     off and caught a freight (they say).  He's discussed each year
     when the family has a reunion, he causes uneasiness in
     the clan, he is an empty space.  My father's mother, who is 93
     and who keeps the Family Bible with everbody's birth dates
     (and death dates) in it, always mentions him.  There is no
     place in her Bible for "whereabouts unknown."

     2

     Each fall the graves of my grandfathers call me, the brown
     hills and red gullies of mississippi send out their electric
     messages, galvanizing my genes.  Last yr/like a salmon quitting
     the cold ocean-leaping and bucking up his birth stream/I
     hitchhiked my way from LA with 16 caps in my pocket and a
     monkey on my back.  And I almost kicked it with the kinfolks.
     I walked barefooted in my grandmother's backyard/I smelled the
        old
     land and the woods/I sipped cornwhiskey from fruit jars with the
        men/
     I flirted with the women/I had a ball till the caps ran out
     and my habit came down.  That night I looked at my grandmother
     and split/my guts were screaming for junk/but I was almost
     contented/I had almost caught up with me.
     (The next day in Memphis I cracked a croaker's crib for a fix.)

     This yr there is a gray stone wall damming my stream, and when
     the falling leaves stir my genes, I pace my cell or flop on my bunk
     and stare at 47 black faces across the space.  I am all of them,
     they are all of me, I am me, they are thee, and I have no children
     to float in the space between.

               --From *The Essential Etheridge Knight*.  U Pittsburgh.
-------------------------------------------------------------

(Pages and pages of illustrations.)
========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
undergraduate education."
   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================




From bobgrumman  Tue Dec  3 05:52:38 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 05:52:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] narrative vs lyric and empathy
References: <200212030603.gB363grn014334@mx7.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <001501c29aba$19320be0$a886fea9@j1c1k6>

David Graham wrote:

I come to this whole discussion from the perspective of someone very
interested in the uses of autobiography and the lyric-I in poetry.
(Consider my often-plugged book plugged again here.)  While working on this
issue I've become convinced that the usual knock against lyric-I poems
(excessive self-absorption), is much too sweeping and simplistic.

Agreed.  Many lyric poems are less self-absorbed than ANY narrative poem:
Saroyan's "lighght," for instance.  Of course, properly understood, this
poem could be considered a narrative poem (since light moves in it), but not
reasonably.  Aside from that, what is wrong with "excessive
self-absorption?"  Isn't it just one more subject for poetry?  The problem
is that it is used too often, and with too over-used a set of techniques.
Which is also the problem with most of today's narrative poetry.

--Bob G.





From marcus  Tue Dec  3 06:35:08 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 06:35:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cow Poets Online
In-Reply-To: <B11F1907-065D-11D7-BCA6-000393C29586@mac.com>
References: <39.310c8e13.2b1d5515@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3DEC509C.17425.28CD2D@localhost>

> On Monday, December 2, 2002, at 07:30  PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
> > PURCHASE, N.Y. (AP) -- Any artist can paint cows. Nathan
> > Banks paints ON cows.

On 2 Dec 2002 at 20:22, Michael Snider wrote:
> Gives a new meaning to bucolic poetry, eh?

The pastoral herd 'round the world.



Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From marcus  Tue Dec  3 07:57:36 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 07:57:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] narrative vs lyric and empathy
In-Reply-To: <11f.1aa40d11.2b1d2136@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3DEC63F0.29553.7450E6@localhost>

Finegan:
> ... I don't really see the importance of the writer
> in what you term the "object of empathy." The poem is written from the 
> voice of a speaker ...  In empathy, from a 
> writer's point of view, it's not the object of but the quality of the 
> response in the reader, the complexity or weight of what is 
> felt/experienced, that is important. The degree of autobiography 
> that the writer has employed in the poem has nothing to do with 
> the poem's ability to summons an empathetic response. <<

It seems to me that the difference is not so much in whether a poem 
is "lyric" or "narrative" (or some other literary descriptor), but in 
whether the poet is trying to "get it out there" or "get it across", 
that is, whether the poem is information or communication. 

The notion of _empathy created in the reader_ presupposes, I think, 
that the poem is "communication" -- that the purpose and intent of 
the poem and poet is to "get it across" rather than merely to "get it 
out there".  Getting it across requires skills and techniques that 
getting it out there does not.  It is in the use of those skills and 
techniques to create empathy in the reader that art inheres -- and 
the apt uses of those skills and techniques that successfully create 
empathy in the reader is good art, while inept uses that do not 
succeed in creating empathy in the reader is bad art, in my view.

I'm sort of baffled by attempts to privilege "lyric" over "narrative" 
poetry, or vice versa -- as well as by attempts to privilege "avant 
garde" over "mainstream" poetry, or vice versa.  It seems to me that 
the important thing is whether one successfully employs the skills 
and techniques of language manipulation to create empathy in the 
reader, and not whether this technique is "narrative" or "avant 
garde" or "lyric" or "mainstream".

It does seem to me that some skills and techniques are out of fashion 
to such an extent that those poets who eschew them are limited in 
their range of audience, but even within a limited range of audience 
using a limited range of skills and techniques it looks to me as if 
good poets are still trying to "get it across" and not merely "get it 
out there".  It is, I think, the hallmark of the inept poet that all 
he or she seeks is to "get it out there" instead of to "get it 
across", just as it is the hallmark of the inept teacher to say "I 
taught it to them but they didn't learn it".



Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From ganesha  Tue Dec  3 23:19:08 2002
From: ganesha (ganesha)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 12:19:08 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cow Poets Online
References: <39.310c8e13.2b1d5515@cs.com>
Message-ID: <004801c29b4c$4babdf50$0100a8c0@jross3>

Brilliant!!  Thanks for posting this!

Zan
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 8:30 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Cow Poets Online


  Artist Hopes Dairy Herd Makes Poetry

  December 2, 2002
  By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS 






  Filed at 2:10 p.m. ET 

  PURCHASE, N.Y. (AP) -- Any artist can paint cows. Nathan
  Banks paints ON cows. 

  Banks, a 22-year-old student at Purchase College, painted
  single words (from ``a'' to ``existential'') on the flanks
  of about 60 cows near his upstate New York home, then let
  them wander around to see if they could compose poetry. 

  So Holsteins and Jerseys named Elsie and Maggie came up
  with phrases like ``eccentric art,'' ``performance as cow
  environment'' and Banks' own favorite, ``organic conceptual
  art as poetry.'' 

  One animal seemed especially inspired -- with ``away''
  written on her side, she broke loose from the herd for a
  while. 

  The ``Cow Project,'' with videotape and photos of the
  bovine bards, goes on display at the college Thursday. 

  ``The idea is that the artist sets up the situation and
  then it carries through on its own,'' Banks said in an
  interview last week at his tiny student's studio. 

  The entire three-day episode was documented by Banks and a
  couple of dozen other students, who were bused up to
  Delaware County, in the northern foothills of the
  Catskills, for the mid-September happening. 

  ``It was peculiar,'' said Gerry Ruestow, who let Banks use
  so-called ``tail paint'' -- a harmless substance that
  eventually flakes off -- on his dairy herd in Sidney
  Center. ``Those art people tend to do things that are a
  little bit outside the box. We did get some people who
  wandered by to see what the crazies up the road were
  doing.'' 

  Banks, a senior, said the project cost him about $1,000 and
  he had to overcome a few obstacles. Half a dozen dairy
  farmers turned him down before Ruestow and his wife Susan,
  Banks' old music teacher, agreed to let him use their
  Fermata Farm. 

  ``There was a big concern that the cows would be stressed
  and give less milk,'' Banks said. Gerry Ruestow said milk
  production actually went up a bit, ``probably because the
  cows were a bit more active. The cows were as interested in
  the observers as the observers were in the cows.'' 

  Working around the milking schedule, Banks painted the
  words in foot-tall blue and orange letters while the cows
  were in their stalls. He wanted to put a word on each side
  of every cow, but some of the animals were skittish about
  it and ended up with just one word. 

  ``They're used to being milked from the same side all the
  time and they didn't like being approached on the other
  side,'' Banks said. 

  Then there were the necessary touchups. Some cows messed up
  their words when they lay down, or swished their tail, or
  got a little cow pie on them. 

  ``I'd repaint, right over the manure,'' Banks said.


  Banks' previous performance art projects include living in
  an elevator for 32 hours and imitating male-pattern
  baldness by gradually shaving and thinning his hair. 

  He said he got the idea for the cow project when he read
  about Dada artists dropping cut-up newspapers on the floor
  to see what poetry was formed. 

  He picked most of the words with his eyes closed, taking
  whatever word was closest when he put a finger down on a
  page of an art history textbook. He added a few, like the
  name of the farm and his old nickname, ``Nater,'' which he
  uses to sign his works. 

  Now Banks is editing the videotape and arranging the
  photographs for the exhibit. His art student schoolmates'
  notations of the cow poetry are collected in four binders. 

  Visitors to the exhibit will be encouraged to make their
  own cow poetry by taking a tiny cardboard cow, writing a
  word on it and setting it down on the vibrating board from
  an old electric football game so it can wander and interact
  with other cows. 

  On opening night, there will also be refreshments, in the
  form of cow-shaped cookies. And milk. 
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From ganesha  Tue Dec  3 23:45:38 2002
From: ganesha (ganesha)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 12:45:38 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] narrative vs lyric and empathy
References: <200212030603.gB363grn014334@mx7.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <007901c29b4f$ff7a9320$0100a8c0@jross3>

Thanks for posting the poem, David.  Beautiful, beautiful ...

Zan
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 2:04 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] narrative vs lyric and empathy


I come to this whole discussion from the perspective of someone very
interested in the uses of autobiography and the lyric-I in poetry.
(Consider my often-plugged book plugged again here.)  While working on this
issue I've become convinced that the usual knock against lyric-I poems
(excessive self-absorption), is much too sweeping and simplistic.

The proof, I would have thought, is in the anthologies:  century after
century of lyric poems that do more than whine about the writer's personal
life, or merely navel-gaze.  That's one reason I mentioned Whitman's "Drum
Taps" poems a while ago--as examples of often highly lyrical poems that
clearly open outward, and betray little stink of solipsism.  (Odd that
Whitman generally has a reputation for excessive personality, when in fact
his poems tell us very little about his life or intimacies.)

In any case, I'm still not sure what the distinction between narrative and
lyric tells us, if anything, about these issues.  Seems clear to me that a
narrative can be blinkered and navel-gazing just as a lyric can.  I love
narrative poetry, too, but I'm not convinced that inventing character is
necessarily a hedge against a limited worldview, triviality, self-enclosure,
and what have you.

Whether we're seeing a particular flourishing of navel-gazing in
contemporary poetry these days is another question, but I don't think it's
helpful to blame it (if it exists) on the sub-genre.  As Finnegan says,
blame the poets instead.

And--here's the crucial point, I think--don't forget about all the
contempories who are doing interesting and un-self-enclosed work in the
lyric mode or variants thereof.  We can all supply our own lists, I'm sure.
But how about a poem like Etheridge Knight's "The Idea of Ancestry"?  I
can't imagine a more personal poem, really, nor one that is less open to the
charge of mere navel-gazing.

Lots of eyebrows lift when someone mentions yet another poem about the
poet's family--but I think Knight's poem is one example of how even that
risky subject can be transformed into something worthwhile.



     The Idea of Ancestry
     Etheridge Knight

     1

     Taped to the wall of my cell are 47 pictures: 47 black
     faces: my father, mother, grandmothers (1 dead), grand-
     fathers (both dead), brothers, sisters, uncles, aunts,
     cousins (1st and 2nd), nieces, and nephews.  They stare
     across the space at me sprawling on my bunk.  I know
     their dark eyes, they know mine.  I know their style,
     they know mine.  I am all of them, they are all of me;
     they are farmers, I am a thief, I am me, they are thee.

     I have at one time or another been in love with my mother,
     1 grandmother, 2 sisters, 2 aunts (1 went to the asylum),
     and 5 cousins.  I am now in love with a 7-yr-old niece
     (she sends me letters in large block print, and
     her picture is the only one that smiles at me).

     I have the same name as 1 grandfather, 3 cousins, 3 nephews,
     and 1 uncle. The uncle disappeared when he was 15, just took
     off and caught a freight (they say).  He's discussed each year
     when the family has a reunion, he causes uneasiness in
     the clan, he is an empty space.  My father's mother, who is 93
     and who keeps the Family Bible with everbody's birth dates
     (and death dates) in it, always mentions him.  There is no
     place in her Bible for "whereabouts unknown."

     2

     Each fall the graves of my grandfathers call me, the brown
     hills and red gullies of mississippi send out their electric
     messages, galvanizing my genes.  Last yr/like a salmon quitting
     the cold ocean-leaping and bucking up his birth stream/I
     hitchhiked my way from LA with 16 caps in my pocket and a
     monkey on my back.  And I almost kicked it with the kinfolks.
     I walked barefooted in my grandmother's backyard/I smelled the
        old
     land and the woods/I sipped cornwhiskey from fruit jars with the
        men/
     I flirted with the women/I had a ball till the caps ran out
     and my habit came down.  That night I looked at my grandmother
     and split/my guts were screaming for junk/but I was almost
     contented/I had almost caught up with me.
     (The next day in Memphis I cracked a croaker's crib for a fix.)

     This yr there is a gray stone wall damming my stream, and when
     the falling leaves stir my genes, I pace my cell or flop on my bunk
     and stare at 47 black faces across the space.  I am all of them,
     they are all of me, I am me, they are thee, and I have no children
     to float in the space between.

               --From *The Essential Etheridge Knight*.  U Pittsburgh.
-------------------------------------------------------------

(Pages and pages of illustrations.)
========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality: personal,
undergraduate education."
   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From JforJames  Wed Dec  4 00:08:04 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:08:04 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] narrative vs lyric and empathy
Message-ID: <ae.32698703.2b1ee7b4@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/3/02 7:52:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, 
marcus at designerglass.com writes:

> The notion of _empathy created in the reader_ presupposes, I think, 
>  that the poem is "communication" -- that the purpose and intent of 
>  the poem and poet is to "get it across" rather than merely to "get it 
>  out there".  Getting it across requires skills and techniques that 
>  getting it out there does not.
Marcus,
I feel the need to say that the writer is not responsible, in some sense,
for what evokes empathy in the reader. I may read a passage that brings 
a tear to my eye because of the shock of recognition...I feel a deep 
kindredship 
in the experience as rendered; while you may read the very same lines with a 
dispassionate  & critical eye. Yet each of us might assess the passage as a 
wonderful bit of writing. Communication, it seems to me, is something the 
poet 
must not obsess over. He/she must simply trust that is will happen: that the 
best poem will make its way in the world, will "Win friends and influence 
people," 
as the Dale Carnegie classes promise. 

> t does seem to me that some skills and techniques are out of fashion 
>  to such an extent that those poets who eschew them are limited in 
>  their range of audience, but even within a limited range of audience 
>  using a limited range of skills and techniques it looks to me as if 
>  good poets are still trying to "get it across" and not merely "get it 
>  out there".

This reminded me of something Montale wrote, "There is still an art which
tries to escape from time but nevertheless bears the characteristics
of our epoch....And poetry, which is generally ahead of its time, may
go so far ahead as to seem behind the time." (from "Poet In Our Time")

Finnegan



From JforJames  Wed Dec  4 00:15:53 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 00:15:53 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cow Poets Online
Message-ID: <14.3af0b08.2b1ee989@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/2/02 7:31:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
writes:

> painted
>  single words (from ``a'' to ``existential'') on the flanks
>  of about 60 cows near his upstate New York home, then let
>  them wander around to see if they could compose poetry. 

and who said Ruminantic Poetry was passe?
Finnegan



From halvard  Wed Dec  4 08:06:42 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 08:06:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Carl Rakosi, "Strictly Iowa"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEMIFOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Strictly Iowa    	(XI from "Americana")

They were married so long
                                         they were worn down
to the same element:
                               two factual blue eyes
and an open freckled face
neither liberal nor conservative,
like the Revolutionary farmer,
and as sparing with an adjective
                                                 as a short-haired dog.

--Carl Rakosi

fr. *Ere-Voice*
[New York: New Directions, 1975]


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard





From marcus  Wed Dec  4 08:33:04 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 08:33:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] narrative vs lyric and empathy
In-Reply-To: <ae.32698703.2b1ee7b4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3DEDBDC0.12169.435F9F@localhost>

> marcus at designerglass.com writes:
> > The notion of _empathy created in the reader_ presupposes, I think, 
> >  that the poem is "communication" -- that the purpose and intent of 
> >  the poem and poet is to "get it across" rather than merely to "get it 
> >  out there".  Getting it across requires skills and techniques that 
> >  getting it out there does not.

Finnegan:
> I feel the need to say that the writer is not responsible, in some sense,
> for what evokes empathy in the reader. I may read a passage that brings 
> a tear to my eye because of the shock of recognition...I feel a deep 
> kindredship 
> in the experience as rendered; while you may read the very same lines with a 
> dispassionate  & critical eye. Yet each of us might assess the passage as a 
> wonderful bit of writing. Communication, it seems to me, is something the 
> poet 
> must not obsess over. He/she must simply trust that is will happen: that the 
> best poem will make its way in the world, will "Win friends and influence 
> people," 
> as the Dale Carnegie classes promise. 

Doesn't "the best poem will make its way in the world" beg the 
question, though?  The reason the "best poem" makes its way in the 
world is, it seems to me, that it communicates rather than informs, 
and it is because it communicates rather than informs that makes it a 
"best poem".  It literally "makes" its way -- it doesn't merely 
passively find some safe harbor of cultish devotees who guard its 
occult meaning from the intrusive pawing of the mass culture, for 
example.

But not much poetry is a matter of "best poem" -- most poetry is, as 
most things and endeavors are, mediocre.  What I was trying to get at 
was what we can say about the difference between good art and bad 
art, about all poetry, not just "best poems".  

It seems to me that almost all of the worst and much of the mediocre 
poems written in any age are bad or mediocre because they are trying 
to "get it out there" instead of trying to "get it across".  Bad and 
mediocre poems are *hoping* to find that cultish group of devotees 
because that's their only chance to be remembered.  "Best poems" are 
going to be remembered and preserved by any age's and any culture's 
best appreciators of art.

Marcus:
> > It does seem to me that some skills and techniques are out of fashion 
> >  to such an extent that those poets who eschew them are limited in 
> >  their range of audience, but even within a limited range of audience 
> >  using a limited range of skills and techniques it looks to me as if 
> >  good poets are still trying to "get it across" and not merely "get it 
> >  out there".

Finnegan: 
> This reminded me of something Montale wrote, "There is still an art which
> tries to escape from time but nevertheless bears the characteristics
> of our epoch....And poetry, which is generally ahead of its time, may
> go so far ahead as to seem behind the time." (from "Poet In Our Time")

Well, this and a back-channel comment show me that I didn't "get it 
across" here.  

I was trying to say, but failed to make clear, that it seems to me 
that poets who refuse to use some language techniques because they 
are out-of-fashion techniques (out of fashion because too old or too 
new) are making it hard on themselves, are making it harder to "get 
it across" than it already is, harder than it has to be. But even 
they, even those artists who eschew some techniques for reasons of 
fashion, even they are trying to "get it across" not merely "get it 
out there", I think.  Once again, those artists who believe that 
getting it out there is all that is necessary to make art are like 
teachers who think that "covering the material" is all they're 
responsible for.  

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From CobbCoStudioArts  Wed Dec  4 08:41:04 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 05:41:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cow Poets Online
Message-ID: <20021204134104.ACC423E6D@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From halvard  Wed Dec  4 10:31:41 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 10:31:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Carl Rakosi, "Simplicity"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEMLFOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Simplicity        (XV from "Americana")

o rare circle,
you are not in favor now.
Not much is written about you. 
Perhaps not much is known about you.
But when I hear this,

"I am just a widow woman.
What do I know?"

and when I see the father of many children
hurrying to the polls in Saigon
to pick the candidate whose symbol is the plow

and when I hear an eighteen year old tell the judge
"So here is Tom Rodd.
                                   I wanted to go to Selma
and Montgomery but I didn't.
I wanted to go to Washington and confront the President
                                   but I didn't.
But this war is too much for me to say I didn't.
So I'm prepared to go to jail.
                                   I have no beef against this court.
I want my friends to know that I'm an optimist.
I drink beer and I play the banjo."

O rare simplicity,
                           when I hear this,
I know I am in your honest presence.

--Carl Rakosi

fr. *Ere-Voice*
[New York: New Directions, 1975]


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard





From hruggier  Wed Dec  4 11:02:27 2002
From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 11:02:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cow Poets Online
References: <39.310c8e13.2b1d5515@cs.com> <004801c29b4c$4babdf50$0100a8c0@jross3>
Message-ID: <3DEE2713.D481A563@localnet.com>

Did they print any of the poems ?  I'd like to read a few.

ganesha wrote:

> Brilliant!!  Thanks for posting this! Zan
>
>      ----- Original Message -----
>      From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
>      To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>      Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 8:30 AM
>      Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Cow Poets Online
>       Artist Hopes Dairy Herd Makes Poetry
>
>      December 2, 2002
>      By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
>
>
>
>
>
>
>      Filed at 2:10 p.m. ET
>
>      PURCHASE, N.Y. (AP) -- Any artist can paint cows. Nathan
>      Banks paints ON cows.
>
>      Banks, a 22-year-old student at Purchase College, painted
>      single words (from ``a'' to ``existential'') on the flanks
>      of about 60 cows near his upstate New York home, then let
>      them wander around to see if they could compose poetry.
>
>      So Holsteins and Jerseys named Elsie and Maggie came up
>      with phrases like ``eccentric art,'' ``performance as cow
>      environment'' and Banks' own favorite, ``organic conceptual
>      art as poetry.''
>
>      One animal seemed especially inspired -- with ``away''
>      written on her side, she broke loose from the herd for a
>      while.
>
>      The ``Cow Project,'' with videotape and photos of the
>      bovine bards, goes on display at the college Thursday.
>
>      ``The idea is that the artist sets up the situation and
>      then it carries through on its own,'' Banks said in an
>      interview last week at his tiny student's studio.
>
>      The entire three-day episode was documented by Banks and a
>      couple of dozen other students, who were bused up to
>      Delaware County, in the northern foothills of the
>      Catskills, for the mid-September happening.
>
>      ``It was peculiar,'' said Gerry Ruestow, who let Banks use
>      so-called ``tail paint'' -- a harmless substance that
>      eventually flakes off -- on his dairy herd in Sidney
>      Center. ``Those art people tend to do things that are a
>      little bit outside the box. We did get some people who
>      wandered by to see what the crazies up the road were
>      doing.''
>
>      Banks, a senior, said the project cost him about $1,000 and
>      he had to overcome a few obstacles. Half a dozen dairy
>      farmers turned him down before Ruestow and his wife Susan,
>      Banks' old music teacher, agreed to let him use their
>      Fermata Farm.
>
>      ``There was a big concern that the cows would be stressed
>      and give less milk,'' Banks said. Gerry Ruestow said milk
>      production actually went up a bit, ``probably because the
>      cows were a bit more active. The cows were as interested in
>      the observers as the observers were in the cows.''
>
>      Working around the milking schedule, Banks painted the
>      words in foot-tall blue and orange letters while the cows
>      were in their stalls. He wanted to put a word on each side
>      of every cow, but some of the animals were skittish about
>      it and ended up with just one word.
>
>      ``They're used to being milked from the same side all the
>      time and they didn't like being approached on the other
>      side,'' Banks said.
>
>      Then there were the necessary touchups. Some cows messed up
>      their words when they lay down, or swished their tail, or
>      got a little cow pie on them.
>
>      ``I'd repaint, right over the manure,'' Banks said.
>
>
>      Banks' previous performance art projects include living in
>      an elevator for 32 hours and imitating male-pattern
>      baldness by gradually shaving and thinning his hair.
>
>      He said he got the idea for the cow project when he read
>      about Dada artists dropping cut-up newspapers on the floor
>      to see what poetry was formed.
>
>      He picked most of the words with his eyes closed, taking
>      whatever word was closest when he put a finger down on a
>      page of an art history textbook. He added a few, like the
>      name of the farm and his old nickname, ``Nater,'' which he
>      uses to sign his works.
>
>      Now Banks is editing the videotape and arranging the
>      photographs for the exhibit. His art student schoolmates'
>      notations of the cow poetry are collected in four binders.
>
>      Visitors to the exhibit will be encouraged to make their
>      own cow poetry by taking a tiny cardboard cow, writing a
>      word on it and setting it down on the vibrating board from
>      an old electric football game so it can wander and interact
>      with other cows.
>
>      On opening night, there will also be refreshments, in the
>      form of cow-shaped cookies. And milk.
>
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From halvard  Wed Dec  4 11:04:38 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 11:04:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Carl Rakosi, "How to Be Discovered As a Great Bard"
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEMLFOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEMPFOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

How to Be Discovered As a Great Bard        (III from "The Medium")

Learn the grandiose manner
                                          and the unending Orphic line.

Idolize a master
and attach yourself to one tit (one is plenty).

Represent the weakness of the age.

Keep at it for forty years
                                      (preferably underground).

--Carl Rakosi
   
fr. *Ere-Voice*
[New York: New Directions, 1975]

Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard





From CobbCoStudioArts  Wed Dec  4 11:34:20 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Wed, 4 Dec 2002 08:34:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cow Poets Online
Message-ID: <20021204163420.8ADD03C5C@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From jvcervantes  Wed Dec  4 14:33:38 2002
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 12:33:38 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cow Poets Online
References: <39.310c8e13.2b1d5515@cs.com> <004801c29b4c$4babdf50$0100a8c0@jross3> <3DEE2713.D481A563@localnet.com>
Message-ID: <3DEE5892.EB073FDD@earthlink.net>

Better yet, did they milk any of the poems.

- the other Jim

You wrote:

Did they print any of the poems ?  I'd like to read a few. 

ganesha wrote: 

     Brilliant!!  Thanks for posting this! Zan 

                     ----- Original Message -----
                     From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
                     To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
                     Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 8:30 AM
                     Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Cow Poets Online
                      Artist Hopes Dairy Herd Makes Poetry 

                     December 2, 2002 
                     By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS



From grahamd  Wed Dec  4 20:50:19 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 04 Dec 2002 19:50:19 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Quincy Troupe resigns again
Message-ID: <200212050149.gB51n5QH025054@mx13.mx.voyager.net>

In a further development related to his falsified academic credentials,
Quincy Troupe has resigned his position on the faculty at UCSD:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2002/12/03/stat
e1605EST0078.DTL
========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
undergraduate education."
   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================




From halvard  Thu Dec  5 09:01:20 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 09:01:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Allen Ginsberg, "Death News"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEOHFOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Death News

      *Visit to W.C.W. circa 1957, poets Kerouac Corso Orlovsky
on sofa in living room inquired wise words, stricken Williams
pointed thru window curtained on Main Street, "There's a lot
of bastards out there!*

Walking at night on asphalt campus
road by the German Instructor with Glasses
W.C. Williams is dead he said in accent
under the trees in Benares; I stopped and asked
Williams is dead? Enthusiastic and wide-eyed
under the Big Dipper. Stood on the Porch
of the International House Annex bungalow
insects buzzing round the electric light
reading the Midical obituary in *Time*.
"out among the sparrows behind the shutters"
Williams is in the Big Dipper. He isn't dead
as the many pages of words arranged thrill
with his intonations the mouths of meek kids
becoming subtle even in Bengal. Thus
there's a life moving out of his pages; Blake
also "alive" thru his experienced machines.
Were his last words anything Black out there
in the carpeted bedroom of the gabled wood house
in Rutherford? Wonder what he said,
or was there anything left in realms of speech
after the stoke & brain-thrill doom entered
his thoughts? If I pray to his soul in Bardo Thodol
he may hear the unexpected vibration of foreign mercy.
Quietly unknow for three weeks; now I saw Passaic
and Ganges one, consenting his devotion,
because he walked on the steeley bank & prayed
to a Goddess in the river, that he only invented,
another Ganga-Ma. Riding on the old
rusty Holland submarine on the ground floor
Paterson Museum instead of a celestial crockodile.
Mourn O Ye Angels of the Left Wing! that the poet
of the streets is a skeleton under the pavement now
and there's no other old soul so kind and meek
and feminine jawed and him-eyed can see you
What you wanted to be among the bastards out there.

March 20, 1963

--Allen Ginsberg

fr. *Planet News: 1961-1967*
[San Francisco: City Lights, 1968]

Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard





From JforJames  Thu Dec  5 12:37:20 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 12:37:20 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Quincy Troupe resigns again
Message-ID: <105.21483b1d.2b20e8d0@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/4/02 8:49:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes:

> In a further development related to his falsified academic credentials,
>  Quincy Troupe has resigned his position on the faculty at UCSD:
>  
>  
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2002/12/03/stat
>  e1605EST0078.DTL
David, I guess it had to go this way...but it seems a sad thing to 
have happened. I believe by the time Troupe applied for the job at 
UCSD, he had more than enough publication credits, renown, and 
teaching experience to land the job, without having to pad his resume. 
I wish at this point, Grambling  would give him an honorary degree 
as a vote of support. 
Finnegan



From JforJames  Thu Dec  5 12:39:28 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 12:39:28 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dick Allen book
Message-ID: <c3.2cf0c67b.2b20e950@aol.com>

Sarabande Books Announces the April 2003 Publication of 
The Day Before
Poems By
Dick Allen

Allen's work ranges with ease from astronomy to politics to domestic 
situations; his poetry captures great swatches of real and imagined 
experience in nimble style.
    
                                Publishers Weekly

No matter how tactile and specific he is, Allen always retains a sense of the 
greater world. He writes about nature as an unceasingly active force, and he 
tracks the ripple effects of defining historical events from wars to the 
invention of the airplane, as though they were weather systems....[H]is 
pristine poems flow like timelines, drawing unexpected connections between 
happenings both major and minor, and observations both subtle and life 
changing. 

                                Booklist

Allen parlays memory, perception, and linguistic dexterity into a definitive 
style evolved over nearly thirty years of arduous making.  By turns ironic 
and acerbic, elliptical and intricately structured, his poems deftly exploit 
the notion of a retrievable past bodied forth in vivid, memorable language. 

                                Floyd Collins, West Branch

Dick Allen takes what we thought we knew for sure about the world and turns 
it inside outthe clich?s, the rules of thumb, the assumptions we gloss over 
and take for granted. We see the objects and events of everyday life in 
renewed, suddenly vivid terms, so that the songs, the kisses, the summers, 
the promises and lies, and the peopleall that weve lost and keep losingbegin 
to shine anew under Allens elegiac and celebratory attention. The poems in 
The Day Before are, as always in Allens work, passionate chronicles of 
contemporary America in transition to the new millennium, marked by the 
ebullience of high craft and formal virtuosity. But these new poems, a unique 
hybrid of lyric-narratives,  are remarkable for their added, personal 
gravity, their burnish of hard-won wisdom. And the miracle is how, in the 
face of our irrevocable losses as nation, species, and individuals, Allens 
poems come down on the side of life and joy. Some years Ive/Barely 
survived;//Others, I climbed around and shouted in,/Doing my best to live a 
praising life.
Dick Allen has received poetry writing fellowships from the National 
Endowment for the Arts, the Ingram Merrill Foundation, as well as the Robert 
Frost Prize for Poetry and The Hart Crane Poetry Prize. In addition to The 
Day Before: New Poems (Sarabande Books, 2003), his books include Ode to the 
Cold War: Poems New and Selected (Sarabande, 1997), Flight and Pursuit, 
Overnight in the Guest House of the Mystic (Louisiana State University 
Press), Regions With No Proper Names (St. Martins Press), and Anon and 
Various Time Machine Poems (Dell). His poems have been selected for The Best 
American Poetry volumes of 1991, 1994, 1998, and 1999. They appear in many of 
Americas leading journals, including Poetry, The Atlantic Monthly, The New 
Republic, The New Yorker, The Hudson Review, The Sewanee Review, The 
Massachusetts Review, The American Poetry Review, The Yale Review, The Kenyon 
Review, Boulevard, The Gettysburg Review, among others. He recently retired 
from his position as Charles A. Dana Endowed Chair Professor at the 
University of Bridgeport.

The Day Before is the fifty-fifth title to be published by Sarabande Books, a 
nonprofit literary press headquartered in Louisville, Kentucky. Founded in 
1994 to publish poetry and short fiction, Sarabandes mission is to disburse 
these works with diligence and integrity, and to serve as an educational 
resource to teachers and students of creative writing. Since the 1996 debut 
of the press, our titles have received positive review attention from 
nationally distinguished media including The New York Times Book Review, 
Publishers Weekly, Kirkus Reviews, American Book Review, Small Press, The 
Nation, and Library Journal.

This book was funded in part by a grant from the Kentucky Arts Council, a 
state agency of the Education, Arts and Humanities Cabinet.

Please visit our Website!   www.SarabandeBooks.org




From JforJames  Thu Dec  5 12:49:34 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 12:49:34 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Slope Editions, Book Award
Message-ID: <174.12f3d944.2b20ebae@aol.com>

Subj:    Book Award
Date:   12/4/02 4:20:45 PM Eastern Standard Time
From:   jlink at english.umass.edu (Jon F Link)

Please read and share the following announcement.


Slope Editions is now accepting submissions for our annual book prize, and
Ive included the guidelines below. Any questions can be directed to me at
molly at slope.org. It might also be helpful for applicants to refer to our
home page, slopeeditions.org. Last years winner was Jonah Winter, for his
book Maine, which will be coming out soon.

Thanks,
jonlink 

slope editions

if you would like to be included or removed from the Slope Editions
mailing list please email jonlink at hotmail.com with either "add" or
"remove" (which ever the case may be) in the subject line.


Judge: Dean Young
Author, First Course in Turbulence, Strike Anywhere and Skid

Deadline: March 15, 2003
$1,000 plus book publication

COMPLETE GUIDELINES

The winning poet will have his or her book of poems published in 2003 or
2004 by Slope Editions, a non-profit press that is applying for 501(c)(3)
status. S/he will receive a standard book contract, which includes
royalties, and $1,000. Last year's judge was David Lehman, who selected
Jonah Winter's Maine as winner. 

Eligibility: 

Any poet writing in English is eligible, unless that person has studied
with or is a close friend of the judge, in which case that person will be
ineligible to enter or win the contest. Age and previous book publication
are not considerations for eligibility. Poems published in print or
on-line periodicals, anthologies, or chapbooks may be included in the
manuscript, but the manuscript itself must be unpublished. Translations
are not eligible. 

Manuscript Format: 

Suggested length: 40 to 70 pages, single-spaced, paginated. The manuscript
must be typed (clear photocopies are acceptable) and bound only by a clip.
Include two title pages (one with book title, name, address, telephone and
email; one with book title only), table of contents, and acknowledgments
page with manuscript. The author's name should not appear anywhere but on
the first title page. Biographical information should not be included. 

Notification: 

Enclose SASE for notification of contest winner only. WE WILL NOT RETURN
MANUSCRIPTS, so don't send your only copy. Winner will be announced in May
2003. 

Simultaneous Submissions: 

Simultaneous submissions are acceptable, but an entrant must notify Slope
Editions if his or her manuscript is accepted elsewhere. 

Multiple Submissions: 

Submission of more than one manuscript is acceptable. Each manuscript must
be submitted separately, each with entry fee and SASE. 

Revisions: 

The winner will be able to revise the manuscript before publication. No
revisions will be considered during the reading period. 

Entry Fee: 

A $20 entry fee, payable to "Slope Publishing Inc.," in the form of a
check or money order, must accompany all submissions. Manuscripts will be
considered for future publication. Unpublished poems from all manuscripts
will be considered for inclusion in the online literary journal Slope
(www.slope.org). Selected poems by semi-finalists will be included in an
edition of Slope. 

Deadline: 

Submissions must be postmarked no later than March 15, 2003. No Federal
Express, UPS, or other overnight mail services. No fax or electronic
submissions. Submissions should be sent first-class mail to Slope
Editions, Second Annual Book Prize, 2350 Kensington Ave., Amherst, NY
14226.



From JforJames  Thu Dec  5 13:01:57 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 13:01:57 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Verse of Other Ungulates in the UK
Message-ID: <a.296c71fc.2b20ee95@aol.com>

The craze for grazing stanzas continues. NPR this morning
featured a similar story to those composing cows
in upstate NY, this time involving sheep.
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_719935.html?menu=news.quirkies



From halvard  Thu Dec  5 13:11:04 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 13:11:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Typo-free version: Allen Ginsberg, "Death News"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEOPFOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Apologies for the typos in this. They were mine (mea culpa,
mea culpa), not A.G.'s. But, as long as those freedom-hating
typos lurk in their caves in the mountains or wherever else
they choose to hide, we will hunt them down--one by one--
and bring them to justice. God bless the proofreaders.

======================================


Death News

      *Visit to W.C.W. circa 1957, poets Kerouac Corso Orlovsky
on sofa in living room inquired wise words, stricken Williams
pointed thru window curtained on Main Street, "There's a lot
of bastards out there!*

Walking at night on asphalt campus
road by the German Instructor with Glasses
W.C. Williams is dead he said in accent
under the trees in Benares; I stopped and asked
Williams is Dead? Enthusiastic and wide-eyed
under the Big Dipper. Stood on the Porch
of the International House Annex bungalow
insects buzzing round the electric light
reading the Medical obituary in *Time*.
"out among the sparrows behind the shutters"
Williams is in the Big Dipper. He isn't dead
as the many pages of words arranged thrill
with his intonations the mouths of meek kids
becoming subtle even in Bengal. Thus
there's a life moving out of his pages; Blake
also "alive" thru his experienced machines.
Were his last words anything Black out there
in the carpeted bedroom of the gabled wood house
in Rutherford? Wonder what he said,
or was there anything left in realms of speech
after the stoke & brain-thrill doom entered
his thoughts? If I pray to his soul in Bardo Thodol
he may hear the unexpected vibration of foreign mercy.
Quietly unknown for three weeks; now I saw Passaic
and Ganges one, consenting his devotion,
because he walked on the steeley bank & prayed
to a Goddess in the river, that he only invented,
another Ganga-Ma. Riding on the old
rusty Holland submarine on the ground floor
Paterson Museum instead of a celestial crockodile.
Mourn O Ye Angels of the Left Wing! that the poet
of the streets is a skeleton under the pavement now
and there's no other old soul so kind and meek
and feminine jawed and him-eyed can see you
What you wanted to be among the bastards out there.

March 20, 1963

--Allen Ginsberg

fr. *Planet News: 1961-1967*
[San Francisco: City Lights, 1968]

Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From JforJames  Thu Dec  5 13:12:06 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 13:12:06 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Also on Morning Edition, Caedmon Recordings at 50
Message-ID: <11.3d4e7ef.2b20f0f6@aol.com>

The article title is "NPR : Caedmon: Recreating the Moment of Inspiration" 
and can be found at 
http://www.npr.org/display_pages/features/feature_866406.html

The happy fortuity of how it was that Dylan Thomas came to record 
his "Child's Christmas in Wales" was enjoyable.
Finnegan



From cstroffo  Thu Dec  5 13:30:21 2002
From: cstroffo (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 10:30:21 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] QUESTION FOR OTHERS--- Allen Ginsberg, "Death News"
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEOHFOAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3DEF9B3D.3738BE3C@earthlink.net>

Hey HAL---
this is the only poem I'm aware of that was written on the
day (year, etc.) I was born---
i was almost a bastard
(parents got married to prevent that---yippee)
and it is the equinox....
so easy to mythologize it for extrinsic reasons....

Anybody else have any particular poems that
were born on their birthday?

Chris


Halvard Johnson wrote:

> Death News
>
>       *Visit to W.C.W. circa 1957, poets Kerouac Corso Orlovsky
> on sofa in living room inquired wise words, stricken Williams
> pointed thru window curtained on Main Street, "There's a lot
> of bastards out there!*
>
> Walking at night on asphalt campus
> road by the German Instructor with Glasses
> W.C. Williams is dead he said in accent
> under the trees in Benares; I stopped and asked
> Williams is dead? Enthusiastic and wide-eyed
> under the Big Dipper. Stood on the Porch
> of the International House Annex bungalow
> insects buzzing round the electric light
> reading the Midical obituary in *Time*.
> "out among the sparrows behind the shutters"
> Williams is in the Big Dipper. He isn't dead
> as the many pages of words arranged thrill
> with his intonations the mouths of meek kids
> becoming subtle even in Bengal. Thus
> there's a life moving out of his pages; Blake
> also "alive" thru his experienced machines.
> Were his last words anything Black out there
> in the carpeted bedroom of the gabled wood house
> in Rutherford? Wonder what he said,
> or was there anything left in realms of speech
> after the stoke & brain-thrill doom entered
> his thoughts? If I pray to his soul in Bardo Thodol
> he may hear the unexpected vibration of foreign mercy.
> Quietly unknow for three weeks; now I saw Passaic
> and Ganges one, consenting his devotion,
> because he walked on the steeley bank & prayed
> to a Goddess in the river, that he only invented,
> another Ganga-Ma. Riding on the old
> rusty Holland submarine on the ground floor
> Paterson Museum instead of a celestial crockodile.
> Mourn O Ye Angels of the Left Wing! that the poet
> of the streets is a skeleton under the pavement now
> and there's no other old soul so kind and meek
> and feminine jawed and him-eyed can see you
> What you wanted to be among the bastards out there.
>
> March 20, 1963
>
> --Allen Ginsberg
>
> fr. *Planet News: 1961-1967*
> [San Francisco: City Lights, 1968]
>
> Hal
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From jvcervantes  Thu Dec  5 14:28:43 2002
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 05 Dec 2002 12:28:43 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Verse of Other Ungulates in the UK
References: <a.296c71fc.2b20ee95@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3DEFA8EA.EC5474F6@earthlink.net>

Won't sheep follow just about anything?

- Jim

p.s. - let's not start taking sheep shots at ungulate versifiers

JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> 
> The craze for grazing stanzas continues. NPR this morning
> featured a similar story to those composing cows
> in upstate NY, this time involving sheep.
> http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_719935.html?menu=news.quirkies
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From CobbCoStudioArts  Thu Dec  5 17:46:45 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 14:46:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Verse of Other Ungulates in the UK
Message-ID: <20021205224646.1EFF34162@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From ccooley  Thu Dec  5 21:12:03 2002
From: ccooley (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Thu, 5 Dec 2002 18:12:03 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy & art
In-Reply-To: <20021203170102.5C31F101C5@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <IFEJKAJEJBEOJGHBHOCHAEKCCCAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>

> From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
> Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2002 07:57:36 -0500
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] narrative vs lyric and empathy

> the apt uses of those skills and techniques that successfully create
> empathy in the reader is good art, while inept uses that do not
> succeed in creating empathy in the reader is bad art, in my view.

This is the same view I think that led Marcel Duchamp to the choice of the
Bottle Rack as a readymade.  Though I believe the Steel Comb is more
empathetic.





From halvard  Fri Dec  6 09:32:48 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 09:32:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Alice Fulton, "Fix"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEALFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Fix

There is no caring less
for you. I fix on music in the weeds,
count cricket beats to tell the temp, count
my breaths from here to Zen.
September does its best.
The Alaskan pipeline lacks integrity,
mineral fibers are making people dizzy,
we're waiting for a major quake. Ultra-
violet intensity is gaining,
the ozone's full of holes and

I can find no shade.
There is no caring less.
Without the moon the earth
would whirl us three times faster, gale-force
winds would push us down. Say
earth lost mass, a neighbor
star exploded--it's "if"

and "and" and
"but". The cosmos owns our luck.
Say under right and rare conditions,
space and time could oscillate.
I know what conditions
those would be for me.
I'd like to keep my distance,
my others, keep my rights reserved.
Yet look at you, intreasured,

where resolutions end.
No matter how we breathe
or count our breaths,
there is no caring less
for you for me. I have to stop myself

from writing "sovereign," praising
with the glory words I know.
Glaciologists say changes
in the mantle, the planet's vast
cold sheets could melt. Catastrophe
is everywhere, my presence
here is extra--yet--
there is no caring less.

--Alice Fulton

in *Felt* 
[New York: Norton, 2001]


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
 
 
 




From jnewberry1974  Fri Dec  6 09:51:19 2002
From: jnewberry1974 (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 06:51:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] QUESTION FOR OTHERS--- Allen Ginsberg, "Death News"
In-Reply-To: <3DEF9B3D.3738BE3C@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20021206145119.43586.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com>


Good question, Chris.  Any of you know how one can find out if a poem was written on his birthday?  Mine's 7/23/74.
 
Jeff Newberry
 Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino <cstroffo at earthlink.net> wrote:Hey HAL---
this is the only poem I'm aware of that was written on the
day (year, etc.) I was born---
i was almost a bastard
(parents got married to prevent that---yippee)
and it is the equinox....
so easy to mythologize it for extrinsic reasons....

Anybody else have any particular poems that
were born on their birthday?

Chris


Halvard Johnson wrote:

> Death News
>
> *Visit to W.C.W. circa 1957, poets Kerouac Corso Orlovsky
> on sofa in living room inquired wise words, stricken Williams
> pointed thru window curtained on Main Street, "There's a lot
> of bastards out there!*
>
> Walking at night on asphalt campus
> road by the German Instructor with Glasses
> W.C. Williams is dead he said in accent
> under the trees in Benares; I stopped and asked
> Williams is dead? Enthusiastic and wide-eyed
> under the Big Dipper. Stood on the Porch
> of the International House Annex bungalow
> insects buzzing round the electric light
> reading the Midical obituary in *Time*.
> "out among the sparrows behind the shutters"
> Williams is in the Big Dipper. He isn't dead
> as the many pages of words arranged thrill
> with his intonations the mouths of meek kids
> becoming subtle even in Bengal. Thus
> there's a life moving out of his pages; Blake
> also "alive" thru his experienced machines.
> Were his last words anything Black out there
> in the carpeted bedroom of the gabled wood house
> in Rutherford? Wonder what he said,
> or was there anything left in realms of speech
> after the stoke & brain-thrill doom entered
> his thoughts? If I pray to his soul in Bardo Thodol
> he may hear the unexpected vibration of foreign mercy.
> Quietly unknow for three weeks; now I saw Passaic
> and Ganges one, consenting his devotion,
> because he walked on the steeley bank & prayed
> to a Goddess in the river, that he only invented,
> another Ganga-Ma. Riding on the old
> rusty Holland submarine on the ground floor
> Paterson Museum instead of a celestial crockodile.
> Mourn O Ye Angels of the Left Wing! that the poet
> of the streets is a skeleton under the pavement now
> and there's no other old soul so kind and meek
> and feminine jawed and him-eyed can see you
> What you wanted to be among the bastards out there.
>
> March 20, 1963
>
> --Allen Ginsberg
>
> fr. *Planet News: 1961-1967*
> [San Francisco: City Lights, 1968]
>
> Hal
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


---------------------------------
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From halvard  Fri Dec  6 09:48:29 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 09:48:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] QUESTION FOR OTHERS--- Allen Ginsberg, "Death News"
In-Reply-To: <20021206145119.43586.qmail@web13003.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEAMFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Well, I just tried Google for mine, Jeff. Typed in "September 10, 1936" and
the word "poem."
There were jonly a few hits, but one suggested that there *might* have been
a William
Saroyan poem born on my birthday. If so, it's in the William Saroyan boxes
at Stanford
somewhere.

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




  Good question, Chris.  Any of you know how one can find out if a poem was
written on his birthday?  Mine's 7/23/74.



  Jeff Newberry

   Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino <cstroffo at earthlink.net> wrote:

    Hey HAL---
    this is the only poem I'm aware of that was written on the
    day (year, etc.) I was born---
    i was almost a bastard
    (parents got married to prevent that---yippee)
    and it is the equinox....
    so easy to mythologize it for extrinsic reasons....

    Anybody else have any particular poems that
    were born on their birthday?

    Chris


    Halvard Johnson wrote:

    > Death News
    >
    > *Visit to W.C.W. circa 1957, poets Kerouac Corso Orlovsky
    > on sofa in living room inquired wise words, stricken Williams
    > pointed thru window curtained on Main Street, "There's a lot
    > of bastards out there!*
    >
    > Walking at night on asphalt campus
    > road by the German Instructor with Glasses
    > W.C. Williams is dead he said in accent
    > under the trees in Benares; I stopped and asked
    > Williams is dead? Enthu siastic and wide-eyed
    > under the Big Dipper. Stood on the Porch
    > of the International House Annex bungalow
    > insects buzzing round the electric light
    > reading the Midical obituary in *Time*.
    > "out among the sparrows behind the shutters"
    > Williams is in the Big Dipper. He isn't dead
    > as the many pages of words arranged thrill
    > with his intonations the mouths of meek kids
    > becoming subtle even in Bengal. Thus
    > there's a life moving out of his pages; Blake
    > also "alive" thru his experienced machines.
    > Were his last words anything Black out there
    > in the carpeted bedroom of the gabled wood house
    > in Rutherford? Wonder what he said,
    > or was there anything left in realms of speech
    > after the stoke & brain-thrill doom entered
    > his thoughts? If I pray to his soul in Bardo Thodol
    > he may hear the unexpected vibration of foreign mercy.
    > Quietly unknow for three weeks; now I saw Passaic
    > and Ganges one, consenting his devotion,
    > because he walked on the steeley bank & prayed
    > to a Goddess in the river, that he only invented,
    > another Ganga-Ma. Riding on the old
    > rusty Holland submarine on the ground floor
    > Paterson Museum instead of a celestial crockodile.
    > Mourn O Ye Angels of the Left Wing! that the poet
    > of the streets is a skeleton under the pavement now
    > and there's no other old soul so kind and meek
    > and feminine jawed and him-eyed can see you
    > What you wanted to be among the bastards out there.
    >
    > March 20, 1963
    >
    > --Allen Ginsberg
    >
    > fr. *Planet News: 1961-1967*
    > [San Francisco: City Lights, 1968]
    >
    > Hal
    >
    > Halvard Johnson
    > ===============
    > email: halvard at earthlink.net
    > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
    >
    > ______________ _________________________________
    > New-Poetry mailing list
    > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




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From halvard  Fri Dec  6 10:09:30 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 10:09:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] QUESTION FOR OTHERS--- Allen Ginsberg, "Death News"
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEAMFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEANFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

I might add that my search also came up with a link to a website
selling Nazi memorabilia, apparently because Goebbels made a speech
at the 8th party congress on my birthday. Hmm.

Hal
  -----Original Message-----
  From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu]On Behalf Of Halvard Johnson
  Sent: Friday, December 06, 2002 9:48 AM
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] QUESTION FOR OTHERS--- Allen Ginsberg, "Death
News"


  Well, I just tried Google for mine, Jeff. Typed in "September 10, 1936"
and the word "poem."
  There were jonly a few hits, but one suggested that there *might* have
been a William
  Saroyan poem born on my birthday. If so, it's in the William Saroyan boxes
at Stanford
  somewhere.

  Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

  Halvard Johnson
  ===============
  email: halvard at earthlink.net
  website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




    Good question, Chris.  Any of you know how one can find out if a poem
was written on his birthday?  Mine's 7/23/74.


    Jeff Newberry

     Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino <cstroffo at earthlink.net> wrote:

      Hey HAL---
      this is the only poem I'm aware of that was written on the
      day (year, etc.) I was born---
      i was almost a bastard
      (parents got married to prevent that---yippee)
      and it is the equinox....
      so easy to mythologize it for extrinsic reasons....

      Anybody else have any particular poems that
      were born on their birthday?

      Chris


      Halvard Johnson wrote:

      > Death News
      >
      > *Visit to W.C.W. circa 1957, poets Kerouac Corso Orlovsky
      > on sofa in living room inquired wise words, stricken Williams
      > pointed thru window curtained on Main Street, "There's a lot
      > of bastards out there!*
      >
      > Walking at night on asphalt campus
      > road by the German Instructor with Glasses
      > W.C. Williams is dead he said in accent
      > under the trees in Benares; I stopped and asked
      > Williams is dead? Enthu siastic and wide-eyed
      > under the Big Dipper. Stood on the Porch
      > of the International House Annex bungalow
      > insects buzzing round the electric light
      > reading the Midical obituary in *Time*.
      > "out among the sparrows behind the shutters"
      > Williams is in the Big Dipper. He isn't dead
      > as the many pages of words arranged thrill
      > with his intonations the mouths of meek kids
      > becoming subtle even in Bengal. Thus
      > there's a life moving out of his pages; Blake
      > also "alive" thru his experienced machines.
      > Were his last words anything Black out there
      > in the carpeted bedroom of the gabled wood house
      > in Rutherford? Wonder what he said,
      > or was there anything left in realms of speech
      > after the stoke & brain-thrill doom entered
      > his thoughts? If I pray to his soul in Bardo Thodol
      > he may hear the unexpected vibration of foreign mercy.
      > Quietly unknow for three weeks; now I saw Passaic
      > and Ganges one, consenting his devotion,
      > because he walked on the steeley bank & prayed
      > to a Goddess in the river, that he only invented,
      > another Ganga-Ma. Riding on the old
      > rusty Holland submarine on the ground floor
      > Paterson Museum instead of a celestial crockodile.
      > Mourn O Ye Angels of the Left Wing! that the poet
      > of the streets is a skeleton under the pavement now
      > and there's no other old soul so kind and meek
      > and feminine jawed and him-eyed can see you
      > What you wanted to be among the bastards out there.
      >
      > March 20, 1963
      >
      > --Allen Ginsberg
      >
      > fr. *Planet News: 1961-1967*
      > [San Francisco: City Lights, 1968]
      >
      > Hal
      >
      > Halvard Johnson
      > ===============
      > email: halvard at earthlink.net
      > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
      >
      > ______________ _________________________________
      > New-Poetry mailing list
      > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
      > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

      _______________________________________________
      New-Poetry mailing list
      New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
      http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




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From halvard  Fri Dec  6 10:09:32 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 10:09:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] QUESTION FOR OTHERS--- Allen Ginsberg, "Death News"
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEAMFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEANFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Hmm. Dylan Thomas's second book of poems
(*Twenty-Five Poems*) was published on my
birthday (9/10/36).

Hal     "What does a poet need an unlisted
            number for?"
                     --George Costanza
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From grahamd  Fri Dec  6 10:47:24 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 09:47:24 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: QUESTION/birthday poems
Message-ID: <200212061547.gB6FlJF6011512@mx1.mx.voyager.net>

Let me recommend a unique anthology, *A Year in Poetry*, edited by Thomas E.
Foster & Elizabeth C. Guthrie.  (Crown 1995)  The book collects a poem for
each date on the yearly calendar--a poem that was either written on that
date, or refers to it.  The selections range through the centuries quite
satisfyingly, from Dante to Alicia Ostriker.

Jeff, the poem for July 23 is by Paul Blackburn--but dated three years
earlier than your birth, in 1971.  It's titled with the date, and the first
lines are:

     Young, dying yellow birch on Owego St.
          half-block from the IGA.

     fat black ants tool along beside me
     or troll across the sidewalks.  I am careful

Hal, September 10 is a poem by Ramon Guthrie with the rather Hal
Johnsonesque title "Death With Pants On."  No year specified.

Hey, I wonder if anyone here was actually born on September 1, 1939?  Put
THAT in Google and see what pops up. . . . 
========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
undergraduate education."
   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================


>
>Hmm. Dylan Thomas's second book of poems
>(*Twenty-Five Poems*) was published on my
>birthday (9/10/36).
>
>Hal     



From grahamd  Fri Dec  6 11:01:27 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 10:01:27 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birthday
Message-ID: <200212061601.gB6G1LlL057871@mx5.mx.voyager.net>

Hal, I've done some ego-surfing in my day, but I never thought to put in my
own birthdate.  Fascinating, in a self-absorbed sort of way.   Can't find
any poems actually composed on the date of my birth (much less the year),
but 2/28 does have important literary resonance.  Both Phyllis Wheatley and
Henry James seem to have died on my birthday.  *Tom Jones* was published,
some years before I was able to read.  Stephen Spender also shares my
birthday, and so does Montaigne.

My poem in *A Year in Poetry* is John Montague's "A Flowering Absence."  

Oh, and Mr. Ed the talking horse died on my birthday in 1979.
========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
undergraduate education."
   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================




From hruggier  Fri Dec  6 11:37:43 2002
From: hruggier (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 11:37:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cow Poets Online
References: <39.310c8e13.2b1d5515@cs.com> <004801c29b4c$4babdf50$0100a8c0@jross3> <3DEE2713.D481A563@localnet.com> <3DEE5892.EB073FDD@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3DF0D257.792F0CDA@localnet.com>

Now you know how we spend our time up here.

James Cervantes wrote:

> Better yet, did they milk any of the poems.
>
> - the other Jim
>
> You wrote:
>
> Did they print any of the poems ?  I'd like to read a few.
>
> ganesha wrote:
>
>      Brilliant!!  Thanks for posting this! Zan
>
>                      ----- Original Message -----
>                      From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
>                      To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>                      Sent: Tuesday, December 03, 2002 8:30 AM
>                      Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Cow Poets Online
>                       Artist Hopes Dairy Herd Makes Poetry
>
>                      December 2, 2002
>                      By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From halvard  Fri Dec  6 11:22:38 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 11:22:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birthday
In-Reply-To: <200212061601.gB6G1LlL057871@mx5.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEAPFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

{    Oh, and Mr. Ed the talking horse died on my birthday in 1979.
{    ========================================

And not a moment too soon!

Hal         "Whatever you do, it has likely brought
               delight to fewer people than either
               contract bridge or the Red Sox."
                                   --Annie Dillard
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From halvard  Fri Dec  6 11:26:36 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 11:26:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cow Poets Online
In-Reply-To: <3DF0D257.792F0CDA@localnet.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEBAFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Gives a whole new sense to "writing bucolics".

Hal

{    Now you know how we spend our time up here.
{    
{    James Cervantes wrote:
{    
{    > Better yet, did they milk any of the poems.
{    >
{    > - the other Jim




From Thom424  Fri Dec  6 11:30:46 2002
From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 11:30:46 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cow Poets Online
Message-ID: <7b.3d30890.2b222ab6@aol.com>

Can't you just see the book-blurb for the anthology of cow poems that's sure 
to follow soon: 
            "Wonderfully moo-ving poems!"



Thom Tammaro
moorhead, MN



From FanwoodJEL  Fri Dec  6 12:56:14 2002
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 2002 12:56:14 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birthday
Message-ID: <4DFBBDE1.77FB68B7.0B0E6811@aol.com>

Here's something. Every day NASA posts the *Astronomy Picture of the Day.* Today it's the Zimbabwe Solar Eclipse. (*The shy solar corona came out to play Wednesday as a total solar eclipse graced morning skies over southern Africa.*) Tomorrow, it's *Shadowy Saturn.* There's an archive. You can look up your birthday, or whatever.
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/astropix.html

Maybe they'll rename a constellation for Mr. Ed. We could, you know, write them.

Jeffrey


In a message dated 12/6/2002 11:01:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes:

> 
> 
> Hal, I've done some ego-surfing in my day, but I never thought to put in my
> own birthdate.  Fascinating, in a self-absorbed sort of way.   Can't find
> any poems actually composed on the date of my birth (much less the year),
> but 2/28 does have important literary resonance.  Both Phyllis Wheatley and
> Henry James seem to have died on my birthday.  *Tom Jones* was published,
> some years before I was able to read.  Stephen Spender also shares my
> birthday, and so does Montaigne.
> 
> My poem in *A Year in Poetry* is John Montague's "A Flowering Absence."  
> 
> Oh, and Mr. Ed the talking horse died on my birthday in 
> 1979.
> ========================================
> David Graham
> Professor of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>   Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>   Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> 
> "We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
> undergraduate education."
>   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> =======================================
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 



From CobbCoStudioArts  Fri Dec  6 13:18:47 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 10:18:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birthday
Message-ID: <20021206181849.4965A3B3C@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From CobbCoStudioArts  Fri Dec  6 13:23:19 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 10:23:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cow Poets Online
Message-ID: <20021206182319.9F79D4831@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From bobgrumman  Fri Dec  6 16:08:26 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 16:08:26 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birthday
References: <20021206181849.4965A3B3C@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <007701c29d6b$9f1f8620$2bbdfea9@j1c1k6>

> David,
>
> We share the same month/day birthdays!  I don't know if this extends to
include the same year. (1941)
>
> Bob

He doesn't, Bob, but I not only share your year of birth but your month of
birth.  The good news is that I don't share your day of birth.  As you would
guess, I'm in the *rational* sign of Aquarius, not the sentimental sign of
Pisces like you and David.  (I'm 2/2/41.)

--Bob G.




From GrahamD  Fri Dec  6 18:30:04 2002
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 17:30:04 -0600 
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Birthday
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E87017@mail.ripon.edu>

> The good news is that I don't share your day of birth.  As you would
> guess, I'm in the *rational* sign of Aquarius, not the sentimental sign of
> Pisces like you and David. 
> 
> 
This is indeed good news, Bob.  Speaking of astrology, I have a book signed
long ago by Robert Bly.  After inquiring about my astrological sign, he
copied out a poem on the endpapers by Cesar Vallejo, fellow Piscean poet.
Plus a little drawing, presumably a sentimental one.  

That's not even my favorite signature by Robert Bly, however.  Back in those
days (this was in 1976 or so) we had a charming little Bly poem about
outhouses posted above the toilet roll in our bathroon.  (It's never
appeared in any of his books, that I know of, but was printed as a
postcard.)  

Anyway, I was delegated to drive him to a reading, and on the way we stopped
off at my apartment to conduct necessary business.  Later that day we
discovered that Bly had signed his outhouse poem while sitting on the pot.
How many could make the same claim, I wonder?

Here's where it gets really strange, though.  He signed with a felt tip pen
of some kind, and by the time we moved from that apartment, the signature
had entirely faded away.

============================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
     Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
     My Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality:  personal, 
undergraduate education."
Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
============================================




From CobbCoStudioArts  Fri Dec  6 18:53:27 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 15:53:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Birthday
Message-ID: <20021206235327.E9E644715@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From bobgrumman  Fri Dec  6 23:14:30 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 6 Dec 2002 23:14:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Birthday
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E87017@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <001401c29da7$24915a00$2cbcfea9@j1c1k6>

> > The good news is that I don't share your day of birth.  As you would
> > guess, I'm in the *rational* sign of Aquarius, not the sentimental sign
of
> > Pisces like you and David.
> >
> >
> This is indeed good news, Bob.  Speaking of astrology, I have a book
signed
> long ago by Robert Bly.  After inquiring about my astrological sign, he
> copied out a poem on the endpapers by Cesar Vallejo, fellow Piscean poet.
> Plus a little drawing, presumably a sentimental one.
>
> That's not even my favorite signature by Robert Bly, however.  Back in
those
> days (this was in 1976 or so) we had a charming little Bly poem about
> outhouses posted above the toilet roll in our bathroon.  (It's never
> appeared in any of his books, that I know of, but was printed as a
> postcard.)
>
> Anyway, I was delegated to drive him to a reading, and on the way we
stopped
> off at my apartment to conduct necessary business.  Later that day we
> discovered that Bly had signed his outhouse poem while sitting on the pot.
> How many could make the same claim, I wonder?

> Here's where it gets really strange, though.  He signed with a felt tip
pen
> of some kind, and by the time we moved from that apartment, the signature
> had entirely faded away.
>
How Blyish!  And an interesting technique: consider a poem penned with a
variety of inks, each of which faded at a different rate so you could start
with a verbose poem that gradually faded to a more and more condensed
one--and then to fragments . . .

(Couldn't a police lab revive the signature?)

--Bob G.




From marcus  Sat Dec  7 08:32:23 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 08:32:23 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy & art
In-Reply-To: <IFEJKAJEJBEOJGHBHOCHAEKCCCAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>
References: <20021203170102.5C31F101C5@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <3DF1B217.5229.2C8841@localhost>

> > Marcus Bales:
> > the apt uses of those skills and techniques that successfully create
> > empathy in the reader is good art, while inept uses that do not
> > succeed in creating empathy in the reader is bad art, in my view.

Crisman Cooley: 
> This is the same view I think that led Marcel Duchamp to the choice of the
> Bottle Rack as a readymade.  Though I believe the Steel Comb is more
> empathetic.

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here. 


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From bobgrumman  Sat Dec  7 08:51:39 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 08:51:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy & art
References: <20021203170102.5C31F101C5@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <3DF1B217.5229.2C8841@localhost>
Message-ID: <003901c29df7$c4cac060$5e07fea9@j1c1k6>

Just to cut in while the thought is in my head: I don't think empathy has
anything important to do with art.  All human (and animal) communication
tries for empathy.  Any communication that fails to get it is bad
communication, including poetry.  But judging a poem on whether it creates
empathy is
silly, it seems to me.  What a poem should try to do is use words to create
a pleasurable response, the greater, more sustained, and more complicatingly
ramifying the better.

--Bob G.



> > > Marcus Bales:
> > > the apt uses of those skills and techniques that successfully create
> > > empathy in the reader is good art, while inept uses that do not
> > > succeed in creating empathy in the reader is bad art, in my view.





From marcus  Sat Dec  7 12:45:55 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 12:45:55 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy & art
In-Reply-To: <003901c29df7$c4cac060$5e07fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <3DF1ED83.17297.C436C@localhost>

> Marcus Bales:
>the apt uses of those skills and techniques that successfully create
>empathy in the reader is good art, while inept uses that do not
>succeed in creating empathy in the reader is bad art, in my view.

Bob Grumman:
> Just to cut in while the thought is in my head: I don't think empathy has
> anything important to do with art.  All human (and animal) communication
> tries for empathy.  Any communication that fails to get it is bad
> communication, including poetry.  But judging a poem on whether it creates
> empathy is
> silly, it seems to me.  What a poem should try to do is use words to create
> a pleasurable response, the greater, more sustained, and more complicatingly
> ramifying the better.

Well it seemed to me at the time that "empathy" was being used to 
mean something like "create a pleasurable response, the greater, more 
sustained, and more complicatingly ramifying the better".  I don't 
think anyone is really disagreeing here on more than terminology, 
unless you're going to insist on "pleasurable" in the sense that it 
has to be only hedonistically pleasurable. After all, what is empathy 
but a sustained, great, and complicatingly ramifying response?  What 
could be more complicatingly ramifying, when you come right down to 
it, than empathy?

Marcus

 

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From grahamd  Sat Dec  7 12:51:15 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 11:51:15 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
Message-ID: <200212071751.gB7Hp8UY082170@mx7.mx.voyager.net>

About two weeks ago I made my annual plea for recommendations of the best
books of poetry we've discovered in the past year.  Response to this annual
request of mine is usually pitiful, truth be told--but never before has
there been *no* response whatever.  So I'm wondering, idly enough, whether
perhaps the gremlins ate my post.  Or did 2002 really suck as a year for new
poetry?
========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
undergraduate education."
   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================




From mcbyrne  Sat Dec  7 12:59:46 2002
From: mcbyrne (Mairead Byrne)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 12:59:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
Message-ID: <sdf1f0db.014@risd.edu>

Well David I think Gabriel Gudding's A Defense of Poetry (University of
Pittsburgh Press) is pretty damn good.  I also think my own Nelson & the
Huruburu Bird (Wild Honey Press) which may or may not make the 2002
deadline is pretty bloody damn good.  The fact that I am related to
these two poets has no bearing on my enthusiasm.
Mairead

>>> grahamd at ripon.edu 12/07/02 12:56 PM >>>
About two weeks ago I made my annual plea for recommendations of the
best
books of poetry we've discovered in the past year.  Response to this
annual
request of mine is usually pitiful, truth be told--but never before has
there been *no* response whatever.  So I'm wondering, idly enough,
whether
perhaps the gremlins ate my post.  Or did 2002 really suck as a year for
new
poetry?
========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
undergraduate education."
   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From mmagee  Sat Dec  7 13:05:20 2002
From: mmagee (Michael Magee)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 13:05:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
In-Reply-To: <sdf1f0db.014@risd.edu> from "Mairead Byrne" at Dec 7, 2002 12:59:46 pm
Message-ID: <200212071805.gB7I5K5V000323@dept.english.upenn.edu>

David, I think, for what it's worth that the best book of poetry this past
year was Heather Fuller's DOVECOTE.  To my mind it wins by a fiarly wide
margin, of course other people will have their opinions, and lord knows
that the world of big prizes is a parallel universe which has nothing to
do with vital poetry.  Others that mattered to me this past year or so,
Jennifer Moxley's THE SENSE RECORD, Dorothy Trujillo-Lusk's OGRESS OBLIGE,
Louis Cabri's THE MOOD EMBOSSER, Rodrigo Toscano's THE DISPARITIES, an 2
which are technically prose but which I include as poetry, Nathaniel
Mackey's ATET AD, and Carla Harryman's GARDNER OF STARS.  And, oh yeah,
Eugene Ostashevsky's THE OFF-CENTAUR.    -m.

 

 According to Mairead Byrne: > 
> Well David I think Gabriel Gudding's A Defense of Poetry (University of
> Pittsburgh Press) is pretty damn good.  I also think my own Nelson & the
> Huruburu Bird (Wild Honey Press) which may or may not make the 2002
> deadline is pretty bloody damn good.  The fact that I am related to
> these two poets has no bearing on my enthusiasm.
> Mairead
> 
> >>> grahamd at ripon.edu 12/07/02 12:56 PM >>>
> About two weeks ago I made my annual plea for recommendations of the
> best
> books of poetry we've discovered in the past year.  Response to this
> annual
> request of mine is usually pitiful, truth be told--but never before has
> there been *no* response whatever.  So I'm wondering, idly enough,
> whether
> perhaps the gremlins ate my post.  Or did 2002 really suck as a year for
> new
> poetry?
> ========================================
> David Graham
> Professor of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>    Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>    Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> 
> "We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
> undergraduate education."
>    Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> =======================================
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From halvard  Sat Dec  7 13:06:55 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 13:06:55 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
In-Reply-To: <200212071751.gB7Hp8UY082170@mx7.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIECNFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

{    About two weeks ago I made my annual plea for recommendations of the best
{    books of poetry we've discovered in the past year.  Response to this annual
{    request of mine is usually pitiful, truth be told--but never before has
{    there been *no* response whatever.  So I'm wondering, idly enough, whether
{    perhaps the gremlins ate my post.  Or did 2002 really suck as a year for new
{    poetry?
{    ========================================
{    David Graham

David, I gave up trying to "keep up" many years ago, maybe even before
I started trying to. My "new stuff" this year is by Holub, by Holan,
by Besmilr Brigham, by a bunch of others. No particular titles spring
to mind--except, perhaps, for *Run Through Rock* (Brigham, and I had
to get up to check that one), and *Vanishing Lung Syndrome*, which
I think would stick to almost anyone's tabula rasa. Now, what year did
you say you were interested in?

Hal         "Whatever you do, it has likely brought
               delight to fewer people than either
               contract bridge or the Red Sox."
                                   --Annie Dillard
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard    




From FanwoodJEL  Sat Dec  7 13:28:03 2002
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 13:28:03 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
Message-ID: <27.331d7e63.2b2397b3@aol.com>

David,

I like Matthew Zapruder's American Linden, which is just out (won our Tupelo 
Press editor's prize, so I'd better), and my mother thinks my own Mortal, 
Everlasting is the best book of poetry ever written. You could ask her. She's 
impartial.

Jeffrey Levine 



From reneea  Sat Dec  7 13:46:06 2002
From: reneea (Renee Ashley)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 13:46:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
References: <200212071751.gB7Hp8UY082170@mx7.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <00a501c29e20$e7f79620$379d598a@oemcomputer>

I've just discovered Julianna Baggott's This Country of Mothers.  It's one
of the best books I've read in *years*! (Southern Illinois Univ Press)
Renee
(Ashley)

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 12:51 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II


> About two weeks ago I made my annual plea for recommendations of the best
> books of poetry we've discovered in the past year.  Response to this
annual
> request of mine is usually pitiful, truth be told--but never before has
> there been *no* response whatever.  So I'm wondering, idly enough, whether
> perhaps the gremlins ate my post.  Or did 2002 really suck as a year for
new
> poetry?
> ========================================
> David Graham
> Professor of English, Ripon College
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>    Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>    Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>
> "We're writing the book on quality: personal,
> undergraduate education."
>    Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
> =======================================
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>




From bobgrumman  Sat Dec  7 13:49:16 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 13:49:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy & art
References: <3DF1ED83.17297.C436C@localhost>
Message-ID: <006501c29e21$5873f920$5e07fea9@j1c1k6>

> > Marcus Bales:
> >the apt uses of those skills and techniques that successfully create
> >empathy in the reader is good art, while inept uses that do not
> >succeed in creating empathy in the reader is bad art, in my view.
>
> Bob Grumman:
> > Just to cut in while the thought is in my head: I don't think empathy
has
> > anything important to do with art.  All human (and animal) communication
> > tries for empathy.  Any communication that fails to get it is bad
> > communication, including poetry.  But judging a poem on whether it
creates
> > empathy is
> > silly, it seems to me.  What a poem should try to do is use words to
create
> > a pleasurable response, the greater, more sustained, and more
complicatingly
> > ramifying the better.
>
> Well it seemed to me at the time that "empathy" was being used to
> mean something like "create a pleasurable response, the greater, more
> sustained, and more complicatingly ramifying the better".

Probably so.

>I don't
> think anyone is really disagreeing here on more than terminology,
> unless you're going to insist on "pleasurable" in the sense that it
> has to be only hedonistically pleasurable.

I would insist on pleasurable in the sense of causing pleasure.  But that's
probably terminological, too, since I would argue that poems that some
people would say do not provide that
do.  A eulogy, say, that on the surface causes sorrow, ultimately--if
successful as a poem--causes more pleasure than pain.  (A sense of loss
overcome--in one way, by a triumphant translation into an artwork, and by
the beauties of that artwork.)

I'm not sure what "hedonistic" means, by the way.  It seems to me almost
entirely a propagandism meaning "pleasure I don't approve of" the way
"license" means "the liberty to do what I don't approve of."  I go along
with the idea that some pleasures are superior to others.  But a poem that
successfully expresses any pleasure is, for me, a success.

> After all, what is empathy
> but a sustained, great, and complicatingly ramifying response?

One thing it can be is a short-lived, tiny, unramifying response.  One can
empathize with a man who has lost a penny as well as with a man whose house
has burned down.

> What
> could be more complicatingly ramifying, when you come right down to
> it, than empathy?

>Marcus

I don't see empathy as complicatingly ramifying, a phrase I am using
(because I can't offhand think of a better one) to mean something that
connects to many things beyond itself in space and time--for instance, in
simple terms, a poem that becomes part of your outlook and response to life
for life--which will probably include empathy but need not.

What I'm trying to say is simply that a painting, say, that has a pretty
yellow in it, will be a success not because one identifies empathically with
whoever put that yellow in the painting but because the yellow is
aesthetically right there.

More than that I porbably can't say because it would involve my going into
the details of my theory of aesthetics, which is too involved for me to get
into here, and which would bore just about everybody here if I did, and were
coherent, which is unlikely.

--Bob G.





From bobgrumman  Sat Dec  7 13:59:19 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 13:59:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
References: <200212071751.gB7Hp8UY082170@mx7.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <006b01c29e22$bfb9d9a0$5e07fea9@j1c1k6>

> About two weeks ago I made my annual plea for recommendations of the best
> books of poetry we've discovered in the past year.  Response to this
annual
> request of mine is usually pitiful, truth be told--but never before has
> there been *no* response whatever.  So I'm wondering, idly enough, whether
> perhaps the gremlins ate my post.  Or did 2002 really suck as a year for
new
> poetry?

I saw the post and didn't respond because I really don't keep track of where
or when I read what, and am I rarely aware of the year any particular book
came out, and because I know that probably no one else at New Poetry has
read or is interested in my favorites.  In fact, I think that picking out
the best of any year in anything is stupid.  We should announce what is
excitingly good whenever it comes out--as you so often do, David.  Gee, it
now strikes me strange that, so far as I know, no grants bestower is
achronological.  I recognize that being chronological is much easier, but
wouldn't it be nice if some foundation spontaneously bestowed an award
whenever those running it came across something that was unusually
meritorious, even if it meant five awards in two weeks and/or no awards for
seven years?

--Bob G.





From bobgrumman  Sat Dec  7 14:01:41 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 14:01:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
References: <200212071805.gB7I5K5V000323@dept.english.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <007b01c29e23$1438b5a0$5e07fea9@j1c1k6>

> David, I think, for what it's worth that the best book of poetry this past
> year was Heather Fuller's DOVECOTE.

Excuse my crankiness, but surely you mean "the best book of poetry published
in 2002 that you've read?"  Or have you read all the poetry books that were
published this year?

--Bob G.




From grahamd  Sat Dec  7 14:28:18 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 13:28:18 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Best of 2002 II
Message-ID: <200212071928.gB7JSBwH038871@mx10.mx.voyager.net>

>David, I gave up trying to "keep up" many years ago, maybe even before
>I started trying to. My "new stuff" this year is by Holub, by Holan,
>by Besmilr Brigham, by a bunch of others. No particular titles spring
>to mind--except, perhaps, for *Run Through Rock* (Brigham, and I had
>to get up to check that one), and *Vanishing Lung Syndrome*, which
>I think would stick to almost anyone's tabula rasa. Now, what year did
>you say you were interested in?
>
>Hal     

Hal et al., I didn't mean this to be a quiz or anything.  Nobody can "keep
up," for whatever that's worth, even if they wanted to.  Just too many damn
books published each year.  I was just trolling for recommendations--most
any old year will do.   Thanks to those who have already responded.

For anyone mortally offended by my brazenly casual use of the words "Best"
and "2002," I hereby apologize.  

As it happens, I spend much of my time re-reading old favorites, too, and
going on little single author binges--in addition the reading I do for
teaching, and the refreshment of regular dipping into The Canon.  

This past year, let's see, there was my Neruda phase, my O'Hara infatuation,
my Lorca week, my Bunting weekend, my month of Kleinzahler, my summer of
Frank Gaspar and Robert Frost, my David Lehman insomnia nights, my Charles
Harper Webb escape, and my recent Ruth Stone addiction. . . .

My new discoveries this year included Wislawa Szymborska ( partly due to
your postings of her poems, Hal)-- finally got around to picking up her 1998
new & selected edition translated by Baranczak and Cavanagh.  Absolutely
splendid.  This past year I also caught up with Barbara Ras's *Bite Every
Sorrow* from 1998 and Judy Jordan's *Carolina Ghost Woods* from 2000.  



From halvard  Sat Dec  7 14:25:51 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 14:25:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP: Philip Berrigan (1923-2001)
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEDBFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

from Reuters--



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

December 7, 2002
U.S. Anti - War Activist Berrigan Dies at 79
By REUTERS


Filed at 10:33 a.m. ET

BALTIMORE (Reuters) - Philip Berrigan, a former priest who was at the forefront of the American anti-war movement for the past four
decades, died late Friday, the Baltimore Sun reported. He was 79.

Berrigan, died of liver and kidney cancer at Jonah House, a communal living facility for war resisters in the Baltimore suburb of
Catonsville, the newspaper reported on its Web site on Saturday.

The former Roman Catholic priest who was ordained in 1955, gained national prominence when he led a group of Vietnam War protesters
who become known as the Catonsville Nine, in staging one of the most dramatic protests of the 1960s.

The group, which included his brother Daniel, a Jesuit priest, doused homemade napalm on a small bonfire of draft records in a
Catonsville, Maryland, parking lot and ignited a generation of anti-war dissent. More recently he helped found the Plowshares
movement, whose members have attacked federal military property in anti-war and anti-nuclear protests and were then often
imprisoned.

In a final statement released by his family, he said, ``I die with the conviction, held since 1968 and Catonsville, that nuclear
weapons are the scourge of the earth; to mine for them, manufacture them, deploy them, use them, is a curse against God, the human
family, and the earth itself.''

Berrigan persistently and publicly criticized the Vietnam War and U.S. foreign and domestic policy and his defiant protests led him
to serve some 11 years in jail and prison.

Howard Zinn, professor emeritus at Boston University who maintained a friendship with Berrigan through the years because they had
similar views, called him ``one of the great Americans of our time,'' the Baltimore Sun said. ``He went to prison again and again
and again for his beliefs,'' said Zinn.

Berrigan saw his protests as ``prophetic acts'' based on the Biblical injunction to beat swords into plowshares.

In his most recent clash in December 1999, Berrigan and others banged on A-10 Warthog warplanes in an anti-war protest at an Air
National Guard base. He was convicted of malicious destruction of property and sentenced to 30 months. He was released on Dec. 14
last year.

His first arrest came in the early 1960's during a civil rights protest in Selma, Alabama.

Philip Francis Berrigan was born Oct. 5, 1923, in Two Harbors, Minnesota.




Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard






From roger  Sat Dec  7 16:12:59 2002
From: roger (Roger Greenwald)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 16:12:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] the year's discoveries
Message-ID: <5.1.1.6.1.20021207155132.00b09a50@pop.chass.utoronto.ca>

David Graham wrote:

 >Hal et al., I didn't mean this to be a quiz or anything.  Nobody can "keep
up," for whatever that's worth, even if they wanted to.  Just too many damn
books published each year.  I was just trolling for recommendations--most
any old year will do.   Thanks to those who have already responded.

As someone who has joined the list less than twelve months ago,
I'd like to say I think it would be very useful to have a list
of people's "picks" at the end of each year (not of books published
only in that year, but of the books they "discovered" in that
year and found to be outstanding). I happen to think the
list would be more interesting if there were some limit
on the number of titles each person could submit (two? three?)
and if people would refrain from submitting their own books.
I'd certainly like to see books that are mainly or
wholly prose poems marked as such.

It is not possible for me to read every day's digest in its
entirety or to copy and paste the title of every recommended
book in every posting. But even if I could do these things,
there is value, I think, in asking people to reflect on which _few_
books have "stayed with them" after some time has passed.

It is very difficult to find a large number
of small-press books in any bookstore or library
(especially small-press books from publishers
in other countries--in Canada one sees almost no small-press
books from the US, UK or Australia; ask yourself how
many such books you see from countries other than the
one you live in). I am hoping the web can alleviate this
problem; once I have assembled a list from the year-end
poostings here, I will try to find (on line) at least a poem or two
by each recommended poet.

My own additions to the list:

Forrest Gander: TORN AWAKE
David St. John: THE RED LEAVES OF NIGHT
Yehuda Amichai: OPEN CLOSED OPEN, trans. Chana Bloch & Chana Kronfeld

By the way: copying and pasting to assemble a list will
be much easier if the authors and titles are not embedded
in paragraphs. (Yes, I know the founding fathers in their
prescience guaranteed everyone the inalienable right to
format e-mail according to his or her own preferences;
just a SUGGESTION--which sensible folks will follow, of course ;-) .)
_______

Roger Greenwald




From jvcervantes  Sat Dec  7 17:05:44 2002
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 15:05:44 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] the year's discoveries
References: <5.1.1.6.1.20021207155132.00b09a50@pop.chass.utoronto.ca>
Message-ID: <3DF270B7.516E175B@earthlink.net>


Roger Greenwald wrote:
> 
>
> My own additions to the list:
> 
> Forrest Gander: TORN AWAKE
> David St. John: THE RED LEAVES OF NIGHT
> Yehuda Amichai: OPEN CLOSED OPEN, trans. Chana Bloch & Chana Kronfeld
>

Almost a "found" poem there:

Torn awake

the red leaves of night

open  closed open

(occasioned, of course, by taking a gander in the forest)

- Jim, with a head cold and therefore not responsible



From smith948  Sat Dec  7 18:54:49 2002
From: smith948 (ellen smith)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 18:54:49 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
In-Reply-To: <200212071751.gB7Hp8UY082170@mx7.mx.voyager.net>
References: <200212071751.gB7Hp8UY082170@mx7.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <a05100300ba183a8a7db4@[165.190.124.251]>

OK, David, how about Joy Katz's *Fabulae* and Rane Arroyo's *Home 
Movies of Narcissus*.  Harryette Mullen's *Sleeping w/the 
Dictionary,* too.
ellen s.
-- 



From jvcervantes  Sat Dec  7 17:22:33 2002
From: jvcervantes (James Cervantes)
Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 15:22:33 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
References: <200212071751.gB7Hp8UY082170@mx7.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <3DF274A8.4EE5F14A@earthlink.net>


David Graham wrote:
> 
> About two weeks ago I made my annual plea for recommendations of the best
> books of poetry we've discovered in the past year.  Response to this annual
> request of mine is usually pitiful, truth be told--but never before has
> there been *no* response whatever.  So I'm wondering, idly enough, whether
> perhaps the gremlins ate my post.  Or did 2002 really suck as a year for new
> poetry?

I *saved* that post.  Period.

Anyway, out of maybe two dozen books, Dara Wier's  _Hat On A Pond_ 
(Verse Press, 2001) sticks out.  Below is a poem from the book. - Jim

Feral Boy


The feral boy showed up everywhere
We went that day.  While we waited
For the woman who owns the tobacco
Shop to explain to her son why he's
Not allowed to sell tobacco products,
Too young, the feral boy slipped behind
Our backs and up & down the aisles of
Every kind of magazine in the world and
Was gone.  When we talked with the men
In the music store about a sound that makes
You feel as if the music is happily heading
In one direction while the musician is always
Dragging it back in some other direction, the
Feral boy sobbed a muffled whoa, and shuffled
Behind us to the back of the shop, up & down
The aisles of every kind of music and was gone.
When we stood on the sidewalk next to a burned
Wall saying, Looking for a Good Home for a
Goldfish, the feral boy tiptoed by, turned a
Corner into a single-file alleyway and was gone.
When we spoke with the jeweler over where and
In what sort of letters we'd have the baby's
Name etched on her silvercup, the feral boy
Hovered near around us around and around every kind
Of precious gem and metal in the world, looked
Past our shoulders, took note of the baby's
Name and was gone.  Later in the sandwich shop
While we talked with a neighbor about a recent trip
He'd made down Memory Lane, the feral boy
Stirred behind our backs and stopped briefly
To look into our hearts and was gone.


- Dara Wier, _Hat On A Pond_, Verse Press, 2001



From antrobin  Sat Dec  7 17:30:45 2002
From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 14:30:45 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
References: <200212071751.gB7Hp8UY082170@mx7.mx.voyager.net> <3DF274A8.4EE5F14A@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <005e01c29e40$4a33cec0$0cacefd8@0021936706>

My faves from the past year:

Cascadia, Brenda Hillman
Miss America, Catherine Wagner
Sleeping With the Dictionary, Harryette Mullen.

Tony

***
"The incredible never surprises us because it is the incredible."
Emily Dickinson

***
"I have obtained an aphrodisiac. It is made from the pockets of the Pocket
Fox, a rare animal that only existed for three weeks in the sixteenth
century."
C. Montgomery Burns

***
"The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous gap in poetry
which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but which would be
better left alone."
Kenneth Koch

***
...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us but yet its in
us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals.
Russell Hoban, "Riddley Walker"





From ccooley  Sat Dec  7 17:31:18 2002
From: ccooley (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 14:31:18 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: empathy & art
In-Reply-To: <20021207170102.86057101EA@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <IFEJKAJEJBEOJGHBHOCHCELACCAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>

> From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 08:32:23 -0500
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy & art
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
> > > Marcus Bales:
> > > the apt uses of those skills and techniques that successfully create
> > > empathy in the reader is good art, while inept uses that do not
> > > succeed in creating empathy in the reader is bad art, in my view.
>
> Crisman Cooley:
> > This is the same view I think that led Marcel Duchamp to the
> choice of the
> > Bottle Rack as a readymade.  Though I believe the Steel Comb is more
> > empathetic.
>
> Marcus Bales:
> I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here.

Marcus,
I was trying out your idea by choosing what I thought would be the most
extreme counter-example.  I like Alan Watts' notion that a thing and its
opposite are one.  That is why I felt at liberty to agree with you, while
proposing the antithesis of your idea.

Are you familiar with Marcel Duchamp?  He is considered the "Grand-Dada" of
20C art.  Pardon me if you know his work for this simplistic explanation:
During his life he chose maybe 8 or 9 manufactured objects and signed them,
making them--presto--into art objects.  He called them "readymades".  Two of
the items were a bottle-drying rack and a steel comb.  I was interested,
primarily, in trying out the idea that what MD was doing was presenting an
object to the art audience that would evoke the greatest empathy, in order
to be a "good artist" making "good art".  It is amusing to me to think of
manufactured objects as evocateurs of empathy.  This is also near the heart,
I think, of the Duchampian irony.  The readymades are limit cases in art,
since they displace the notion of artist as maker (of object and its
(thought or felt) meaning) and replace it with the idea of artist as chooser
and signer of prefabricated objects.  (There are "further vistas of irony"
in the "mystery" surrounding the choice of the Readymades.  John Cage (in
music) later also abdicated that choice too.)  Readymades appear at first
glance to be the death of art.  In fact, they can act as its revivification,
by placing the responsibility for meaning creation in hands and the mind of
the observer.  This is true in the case also of a poem that creates empathy
in an observer.  The poem does not contain the meaning or the empathy; these
exist, if at all, in the mind of the observer.  This is the "role of the
reader", as Umberto Eco calls it.

I am very sorry (or perhaps excited at the opportunity present) that I have
found nothing in my investigation of contemporary poetry that matches the
power of the Readymades to destroy art so that art might continue to live.
(I wonder if poetry has missed out its opportunity to embrace Dadaism.  And
I am open to enlightenment.)

Crisman





From smith948  Sat Dec  7 19:50:26 2002
From: smith948 (ellen smith)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 19:50:26 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: empathy & art
In-Reply-To: <IFEJKAJEJBEOJGHBHOCHCELACCAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>
References: <IFEJKAJEJBEOJGHBHOCHCELACCAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>
Message-ID: <a05100304ba18460a3193@[165.190.124.251]>

Crisman:  Having received, recently, 35 reading journals from 
undergraduates who were to apply various improvisation reading 
strategies to Harryette Mullen's extremely daunting book-length poem 
*Muse and Drudge*, I would say that much experimental poetry can 
elicit the shifting of responsibility that the Readymades did.  Since 
much of what Mullen does is in the manner of Readymades (Like WCW and 
Moore, weaving snippets of others' words/phrases into her own text, 
even the most trite commonplaces, which take on new life through 
context or wordplay), it can elicit in readers the creative impulse 
(which, in effect, does cause "art" to resurrect in readers' hands 
after being "killed").  What I'm not sure about is where empathy fits 
in...unless you mean that, by being forced into the producer position 
(rather than the passive consumer position), the reader might 
empathetically come to know the producer position?  Of course, you 
can expect to hear a host of "slippery slope" type counterarguments 
to your claim, such as, where do you draw the line?  Can't a mold 
stain on the wall also call forth an active, creative response from 
its viewer?  But, of course, that was also what DuC was calling forth 
through his readymades?  A mad scramble on the part of viewers to try 
to articulate what they thought art would,could, should be?
ellen s.

>  > From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
>>  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>  Date: Sat, 07 Dec 2002 08:32:23 -0500
>>  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy & art
>>  Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>
>>  > > Marcus Bales:
>>  > > the apt uses of those skills and techniques that successfully create
>>  > > empathy in the reader is good art, while inept uses that do not
>>  > > succeed in creating empathy in the reader is bad art, in my view.
>>
>>  Crisman Cooley:
>>  > This is the same view I think that led Marcel Duchamp to the
>>  choice of the
>>  > Bottle Rack as a readymade.  Though I believe the Steel Comb is more
>>  > empathetic.
>>
>>  Marcus Bales:
>>  I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here.
>
>Marcus,
>I was trying out your idea by choosing what I thought would be the most
>extreme counter-example.  I like Alan Watts' notion that a thing and its
>opposite are one.  That is why I felt at liberty to agree with you, while
>proposing the antithesis of your idea.
>
>Are you familiar with Marcel Duchamp?  He is considered the "Grand-Dada" of
>20C art.  Pardon me if you know his work for this simplistic explanation:
>During his life he chose maybe 8 or 9 manufactured objects and signed them,
>making them--presto--into art objects.  He called them "readymades".  Two of
>the items were a bottle-drying rack and a steel comb.  I was interested,
>primarily, in trying out the idea that what MD was doing was presenting an
>object to the art audience that would evoke the greatest empathy, in order
>to be a "good artist" making "good art".  It is amusing to me to think of
>manufactured objects as evocateurs of empathy.  This is also near the heart,
>I think, of the Duchampian irony.  The readymades are limit cases in art,
>since they displace the notion of artist as maker (of object and its
>(thought or felt) meaning) and replace it with the idea of artist as chooser
>and signer of prefabricated objects.  (There are "further vistas of irony"
>in the "mystery" surrounding the choice of the Readymades.  John Cage (in
>music) later also abdicated that choice too.)  Readymades appear at first
>glance to be the death of art.  In fact, they can act as its revivification,
>by placing the responsibility for meaning creation in hands and the mind of
>the observer.  This is true in the case also of a poem that creates empathy
>in an observer.  The poem does not contain the meaning or the empathy; these
>exist, if at all, in the mind of the observer.  This is the "role of the
>reader", as Umberto Eco calls it.
>
>I am very sorry (or perhaps excited at the opportunity present) that I have
>found nothing in my investigation of contemporary poetry that matches the
>power of the Readymades to destroy art so that art might continue to live.
>(I wonder if poetry has missed out its opportunity to embrace Dadaism.  And
>I am open to enlightenment.)
>
>Crisman
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


-- 



From smith948  Sat Dec  7 19:55:21 2002
From: smith948 (ellen smith)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 19:55:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] the year's discoveries
In-Reply-To: <3DF270B7.516E175B@earthlink.net>
References: <5.1.1.6.1.20021207155132.00b09a50@pop.chass.utoronto.ca>
 <3DF270B7.516E175B@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <a05100305ba184879c3de@[165.190.124.251]>

Jim:  Do take responsibility, then thank the authors of the titles 
and of course David who elicited the list.  I found it moving.  It 
made a ping in my chest. 	I think you may have begun a new 
sub-genre here.  And I am not being facetious.
ellen s.
Give yourself and your collaborators a nice Nyquil toast!

>Roger Greenwald wrote:
>>
>>
>>  My own additions to the list:
>>
>>  Forrest Gander: TORN AWAKE
>>  David St. John: THE RED LEAVES OF NIGHT
>>  Yehuda Amichai: OPEN CLOSED OPEN, trans. Chana Bloch & Chana Kronfeld
>>
>
>Almost a "found" poem there:
>
>Torn awake
>
>the red leaves of night
>
>open  closed open
>
>(occasioned, of course, by taking a gander in the forest)
>
>- Jim, with a head cold and therefore not responsible
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


-- 



From poemlady  Sat Dec  7 20:53:45 2002
From: poemlady (Audrey Friedman)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 20:53:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
References: <200212071751.gB7Hp8UY082170@mx7.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <1d4201c29e5c$a4d445f0$4fc30944@Zoom>

The best book of poetry I've discovered this year is "The Hour Between Dog
and Wolf," by Laure-Anne Bosselaar.  The book was published in 1997.
Audrey





From bardo  Sun Dec  8 08:47:58 2002
From: bardo (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 08:47:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
References: <27.331d7e63.2b2397b3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00c301c29ec0$6b30b9a0$ec59bd18@MULDER>

Has anyone seen my _Post-Avant_, out this year from Pavement Saw?

http://www.pavementsaw.org/postavant.htm

Dan Zimmerman

----- Original Message -----
From: <FanwoodJEL at aol.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, December 07, 2002 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II


> David,
>
> I like Matthew Zapruder's American Linden, which is just out (won our
Tupelo
> Press editor's prize, so I'd better), and my mother thinks my own Mortal,
> Everlasting is the best book of poetry ever written. You could ask her.
She's
> impartial.
>
> Jeffrey Levine
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>





From marcus  Sun Dec  8 08:57:22 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 08:57:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: empathy & art
In-Reply-To: <IFEJKAJEJBEOJGHBHOCHCELACCAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>
References: <20021207170102.86057101EA@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <3DF30972.25951.1BEFC5@localhost>

> > > > Marcus Bales:
> > > > the apt uses of those skills and techniques that successfully create
> > > > empathy in the reader is good art, while inept uses that do not
> > > > succeed in creating empathy in the reader is bad art, in my view.
> >
> > Crisman Cooley:
> > > This is the same view I think that led Marcel Duchamp to the
> > choice of the
> > > Bottle Rack as a readymade.  Though I believe the Steel Comb is more
> > > empathetic.
> >
> > Marcus Bales:
> > I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here.
> 
Crisman Cooley:
> I was trying out your idea by choosing what I thought would be the most
> extreme counter-example.  I like Alan Watts' notion that a thing and its
> opposite are one.  That is why I felt at liberty to agree with you, while
> proposing the antithesis of your idea.

I was afraid you were going to say that.

Crisman Cooley: 
> ... (There are "further vistas of irony"
> in the "mystery" surrounding the choice of the Readymades.  John Cage (in
> music) later also abdicated that choice too.)  Readymades appear at first
> glance to be the death of art.  In fact, they can act as its revivification,
> by placing the responsibility for meaning creation in hands and the mind of
> the observer....<<

Well, I disagree fundamentally with the entire notion that by signing 
something "as an artist" one has made it into art. That looks 
perilously close, to me, to the great western civilization notion of 
"discovery": steal whatever you please, so long as you claim you've 
discovered it instead of stolen it.  A friend of mine says, whenever 
someone mentions that Columbus discovered America "I see a fine-
looking Cadillac over there.  I think I'll go discover it." To sign a 
bottle rack or a comb and claim it's thereby made into art is merely 
theft, not art.

Crisman Cooley:
> This is true in the case also of a poem that creates empathy
> in an observer.  The poem does not contain the meaning or the empathy; these
> exist, if at all, in the mind of the observer. <

This is silly.  Without the poem there can be nothing for the reader 
to read; nothing out of which to create art.  If you seriously hold 
that the art is only in the mind of the observer then everything is 
art: rape, murder, terrorism, the Grand Canyon, Niagra Falls, cloud 
formations, white noise, deep space, and silence.  Where there can be 
no useful distinction made between art and non-art there can be no 
art at all.  Holding that anything is art if a claimant says it is is 
a declaration that there is no art at all -- except perhaps the art 
of the scam or the con. And then the distinction between "good art" 
and "bad art" becomes merely a matter of salesmanship.  Good art is 
whatever the "market" will "buy" -- even if the medium of exchange is 
praise and reputation instead of money.

Crisman Cooley:
> I am very sorry (or perhaps excited at the opportunity present) that I have
> found nothing in my investigation of contemporary poetry that matches the
> power of the Readymades to destroy art so that art might continue to live.<

Well, fortunately for you, then, I happen to have right here to hand 
the very thing you seek.  Below is one of thousands of poems I've 
written, called "Quotations", to my prospective clients.  I hope 
you're a prominent editor of a prominent literary magazine so that 
you can take this opportunity to con your audience into accepting 
"Marcus Bales" as synonymous with "Marcel Duchamp" as a creator of 
readymades.  Thank you in advance.

Bales&Price, Inc.
Designer Glass, Wood, Polymers & Metal
540 E. 105th Street  Cleveland, Ohio  44108
Phone: (216) 268-5520  Facsimile: (216) 268-5540
website: http://www.designerglass.com
email: marcus at designerglass.com

SUMMARY QUOTATION 98-1005 
Rectangle, Diamond, and Gothic designs
SGO 1/2" Lead Rectangles and Gothic;
1/4" Lead Diamonds & borders
Pane		No of							
No.		Panes Description and size and design			Price

1-3		3 Basement Doors 18-5/8x78-7/8 RECT			  229
4-9		6 Basement Panels 19-1/4x47-1/4 RECT		  460
10,11		2 Library Panels 19-1/4x35-1/4 DIAM w/ medallions	  785
12,13		2 Front Entry Panels 15-1/4x47-1/4 DIAM 		  235
14,19		2 DR Transoms 11-1/4x29-1/4 RECT			  120
15,20		2 DR Windows 11-1/4x67-1/4 RECT			  150
16		3 DR Transoms 17-1/4x29-1/4 RECT			  120
17,18		3 DR Windows 17-1/4x67-1/4 RECT w/ medallions	1230
21		3 Kitchen Transoms 19-1/4x19-1/4 DIAM		    98
22,23		3 Kitchen Windows 19-1/4x35-1/4 DIAM			  179
24		1 Bathroom Window 19-1/4x29-1/4 DIAM		    49
25,26		2 Garage Windows 19-1/4x47-1/4 DIAM			  138
27,28		2 Garage Windows 19-1/4x41-1/4 DIAM			  158
29		2 Laundry Transoms 23-1/4x11-1/4 RECT		  120
30,31		2 Laundry Windows 23-1/4x29-1/4 RECT		  140
32,35,38	6 Eating Area Transoms 23-1/4x11-1/4 RECT		  132
33,34,36,37
  39,40		6 Eating Area Windows 23-1/4x47-1/4 RECT		  475
41		1 Hearth Room Door 24-5/8x78-7/8 RECT		  109
42,44		5 Hearth Room Transoms 29-1/4x11-1/4 RECT		  140
43,45		5 Hearth Room Windows 29-1/4x47-1/4 RECT		  495
46,47		2 Den Room Windows 23-1/4x53-1/4 RECT		  170
48,49		6 Den Room Windows 19-1/4x29-1/4 RECT		  295
50		1 Den Bath Window 19-1/4x29-1/4 RECT, w/ medallion	  350
51,54		2 Library Sidelights 19-1/4x67-1/4 RECT		  180
52,53		2 Library Doorlights 25-3/4x66-3/16 RECT, w/ medallion	  860
55,56		2 Window Seat Windows 11-1/4x41-1/4 DIAM		  190
57,58		3 Closet Windows 19-1/4x19-1/4 DIAM			  150
59		1 Master Bath Toilet Window 19-1/4x19-1/4 DIAM	    49
60,61		6 M Bath Windows 23-1/4x35-1/4 DIAM			  450
62,63		2 M BR Windows 19-1/4x29-1/4 DIAM, w/medallion	  885
64,65		2 M BR Doors 37-3/4x66-3/16 RECT			  208
66,67		2 West Guest BR 23-1/4x53-1/4 RECT			  118
68,69		2 South Guest BR 19-1/4x41-1/4 DIAM			  158
GOTHIC	1 Single arched window, gothic arch, w/tri-foils & pts	  785
GOTHIC	3 arched windows, gothic arch				  885
		3 Rectangle windows					  650
Total									11,995.00
Sketch Deposit paid							(    500.00)
Balance								11,445.00

Terms:  60% on approval of art; balance on delivery.  Please circle 
the options required, initial the circles, sign and date below, and 
return one signed copy with your deposit.  Please keep one copy for 
your records.

_________________________________		_____________
Accepted						Date


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From CobbCoStudioArts  Sun Dec  8 08:52:25 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts (CobbCoStudioArts)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 05:52:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
Message-ID: <20021208135225.8E37C11E4B@sitemail.everyone.net>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20021208/96b023a6/attachment.ksh>


From marcus  Sun Dec  8 09:32:25 2002
From: marcus (Marcus Bales)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 09:32:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy & art
In-Reply-To: <006501c29e21$5873f920$5e07fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <3DF311A9.11265.3C09D1@localhost>

> > Marcus Bales:
> > Well it seemed to me at the time that "empathy" was being used to
> > mean something like "create a pleasurable response, the greater, more
> > sustained, and more complicatingly ramifying the better".

Bob Grumman: 
> Probably so.

Then it seems as if we agree -- except that you go on thereafter at 
some length apparently seeking a disagreement.
 
Marcus Bales:
> >I don't
> > think anyone is really disagreeing here on more than terminology,
> > unless you're going to insist on "pleasurable" in the sense that it
> > has to be only hedonistically pleasurable.

Bob Grumman: 
> I would insist on pleasurable in the sense of causing pleasure.  But that's
> probably terminological, too, since I would argue that poems that some
> people would say do not provide that
> do.  A eulogy, say, that on the surface causes sorrow, ultimately--if
> successful as a poem--causes more pleasure than pain.  (A sense of loss
> overcome--in one way, by a triumphant translation into an artwork, and by
> the beauties of that artwork.)

Well, this is like "poetry is as good as it prompts action" -- the 
question remains, "how much action, what kind of action, how soon?" 
and the like.  If an eulogy causes pain to the widow but pleasure to 
the deceased fellow's enemies, do you count that a successful poem or 
not?

Bob Grumman: 
> I'm not sure what "hedonistic" means, by the way.  It seems to me almost
> entirely a propagandism meaning "pleasure I don't approve of" the way
> "license" means "the liberty to do what I don't approve of."  I go along
> with the idea that some pleasures are superior to others.  But a poem that
> successfully expresses any pleasure is, for me, a success.

I meant "hedonistic pleasure" in the sense of "pleasure there is no 
denying as pleasure", as, for example, eating when hungry, drinking 
when thirsty, having sex when aroused, and the like: unequivocal 
pleasures, as opposed to the equivocal pleasures of art.
 
Marcus Bales;
> > After all, what is empathy
> > but a sustained, great, and complicatingly ramifying response?

Bob Grumman: 
> One thing it can be is a short-lived, tiny, unramifying response.  One can
> empathize with a man who has lost a penny as well as with a man whose house
> has burned down.<<

Context is all in this case; the widow who adds her mite to the 
offering, and the man who loses his very last penny may be people 
with whom we empathize, but not in an "short-lived, tiny, unramifying 
response".  With an ordinary fellow who loses a penny we are not 
likely to empathize, Bob -- or even sympathize -- unless it is a 
penny worth a good deal more than a penny.

Bob Grumman:
> I don't see empathy as complicatingly ramifying, a phrase I am using
> (because I can't offhand think of a better one) to mean something that
> connects to many things beyond itself in space and time--for instance, in
> simple terms, a poem that becomes part of your outlook and response to life
> for life--which will probably include empathy but need not.<<

It seems to me that one must indeed empathize in order to see the 
connections beyond a thing into space and time.  It is precisely 
those things, or events, or people, who guide us to see those 
connections with which or with whom we empathize -- that's what 
empathy *means*, it seems to me.  You seem to have some private 
definition of "empathy" that makes the use of the word to mean "a 
sustained, great, and complicatingly ramifying response" or 
"something that connects to many things beyond itself in space and 
time" anathema to you.

Bob Grumman:
> More than that I porbably can't say because it would involve my going into
> the details of my theory of aesthetics, which is too involved for me to get
> into here, and which would bore just about everybody here if I did, and were
> coherent, which is unlikely.

Ah -- the predictable "I know way more about this than I'm willing to 
say" ploy from Bob Grumman!  How ... predictable. 



Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com






From halvard  Sun Dec  8 09:43:52 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 09:43:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Robert Hershon, "How to Ride on the Woodlawn Express"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEEEDFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

There's a piece by Siri Hustvedt in this morning's NYT that reminded
me of Bob Hershon's poem just below (followed by Hustvedt's piece).


How to Ride on the Woodlawn Express

Early in the 13th century, experts from the emperor's court formulated
the basic rules of etiquette for the New York subway system. You may
eavesdrop, they said, but you may never laugh or cry. You may play
the radio very loud but you may not hum in someone's ear. You may
read the National Inquirer over that lady's shoulder, but you may not
ask her not to turn the page yet. You may not look into the eyes of the
gods. You may not throw up. You may not sit next to the beautiful
stranger.

You may not speak to anyone unless there is a fire in the tunnel and it's
lasted half an hour or he is gasping for air and clutching his chest and he
is dressed neatly or he is your uncle or he is returning your wallet almost
intact or he is reading a book you wrote or his hand is on your ass or he
is your reflection.

Here is an old mill by a stream. There is a house with a thatched roof,
a young woman feeds her geese, a young man fingers his lute, but the
painting is upside down. It is going to the Bronx on the Woodlawn
Road express, a huge painting held by two people so small just their
hands are visible at the top of the frame. A man is twisting his head
around, trying to see the painting, trying to make it come right side up.
I am watching him. A man near the door is watching me. There is a
certain pleasure. Many subway rules are being broken: can you
identify them? If so, get off here. We are riding to the countryside,
huddled around some other tribe's tribal memory of springtime in
Sussex, some of the sheep painted with blue numbers, some with red.
What does this mean? Which do we prefer? Do we like it? 25 cows
are facing north, 25 cows are facing south. Do we have an opinion?

Should we play by the rules? A thousand Norman archers shot their
arrows and waited for the Saxon archers to shoot them back, but
the Saxons hadn't brought any archers so they didn't shoot the arrows
back and the Normans had no more arrows to shoot. This was a
clear violation of the etiquette of war and league officials made the
Saxons give up England at once. Now they're very sorry they didn't
bring their archers. They burn with shame and regret, dumb fucken
Saxons. They burn with shame and regret and try to tell strangers
about it, but no one will listen to them and everybody has to get
off here.

--Robert Hershon

fr. *How to Ride on the Woodlawn Express*

[New York: Sun, 1985]


December 8, 2002
Look Away: The Unwritten Law of Survival in the Teeming City
By SIRI HUSTVEDT


In rural Minnesota, where I grew up, it was the custom to greet everyone you met on the road, whether you knew the person or not,
with a "hi." A muttered, uninflected "hi" was entirely acceptable, but the word had to be spoken. Passing someone in silence wasn't
only rude, it could also lead to accusations of snobbery, the worst possible sin in my small corner of the equalitarian state.

When I moved to New York in 1978, I discovered what it meant to live among hordes of strangers and how impractical and unsound it
would be to greet all of them. Within days, I absorbed the unwritten code of survival in this town, a convention communicated
silently but forcefully. This simple law, one nearly every New Yorker subscribes to whenever possible, is: pretend it isn't
happening.

This widely applied coping technique is what separates New Yorkers from tourists, and seasoned citizens from those who have just
come here. An Iranian friend told me that about a week after he arrived in the city, he was traveling uptown on the Second Avenue
bus. At 24th Street, the door opened for a woman who was wearing nothing but a flimsy bathrobe over her naked body. When she reached
the top step, she started feeling her pockets for something, and then, with a shocked look on her face, exclaimed: "My token! My
token! Oh, my God, I must have left it in the other bathrobe!"

The driver sighed and waved her onto the bus. My friend had been staring at the woman, but was a little ashamed when he realized
that nobody else had given the woman a first glance, much less a second.

In October of last year, I was on the F train when I noticed a wild-eyed man enter the car. He boomed out a few verses from
Revelations, and then, in an equally loud voice, began his sermon, informing us that Sept. 11 had been God's just punishment for our
sins. I could feel the cold, stiff resistance to his words among the passengers, but not a single one of us turned to look at him.

A couple of weeks ago, after seeing a play at the Brooklyn Academy of Music, my husband and I walked down the stairs at the Atlantic
Avenue Station to wait for the No. 2 train. I wanted to sit and noticed a single bench with several empty seats. At the end of that
bench sat a man with five or six plastic bags, and although he was perhaps 20 yards away, I did sense that he might be someone to
avoid because even at that distance he gave off an aura of silent hostility.

Nevertheless, fortified by the presence of my husband, I led the way to the bench. We seated ourselves at its far end, leaving four
empty seats between us and the man. After a minute, he gathered up his bags, shuffled past us and spit in our direction. His aim
wasn't good, but when I looked down, I saw a gleaming microdot of saliva on the knee of my pants. We let it go.

These three stories ? the bathrobe lady, the fanatical preacher and the spitter ? show a range of increasing- ly outrageous behavior
that may be dealt with through the pretend-it-isn't-happening law. And yet, as my husband pointed out, in the case of the spitter,
had there been more saliva on me, he would have felt forced to act. And acting, as everyone in the city knows, can be dangerous. It
is usually better to treat the unpredictable among us as ghosts, wandering phantoms who play out their lonely narratives for an
audience that appears to be deaf, dumb and blind.

Taking action may be viewed as courageous or merely stupid, depending on your point of view. A number of years ago, my husband
witnessed a memorable exchange on a subway going to Pennsylvania Station. A very tall black man entered the car with a woman dressed
in short shorts and high vinyl boots. The woman found a place to sit and immediately nodded off. The man, who was weaving a bit on
his feet, took out a cigarette and lighted it. Within seconds of that infraction, a little white guy with blond hair, probably in
his late 20's, wearing a beige trench coat buttoned up to his neck, politely demurred. "Excuse me, sir, for bothering you," he said,
in a voice obviously formed somewhere in the Midwest, "but I want to point out that it's against the law to smoke on the subway."
The tall man looked down at his interlocutor, sized him up, paused, and then, in deep mellifluous tones, uttered: "Do you wanna
die?"

Most New York stories would have ended there, but not this one. No, the short fellow admitted, he did not want to die, but neither
had he finished what he had to say. He persisted, calmly defending the law and its demonstrable rightness. The big man continued
puffing on his cigarette as he eyed his opponent with growing amusement. The train stopped. It was time for the smoker to leave, but
before he made his exit, he turned to the indefatigable little Midwesterner, nodded, and said, "Have a good Dale Carnegie."

THAT story ended well and with wit, but it carries no moral insight into when to act and when not to act. There are moments,
however, when a smile or a well-timed comment may change the course of what might otherwise be a sorry event.

For the last year and a half, my 15-year-old daughter has been refining the blank expression that accompanies the Pretend Law,
because she spends a couple of hours each day on the subway going to and from school. With her Walkman securely over her ears, she
feigns deafness when the inevitable stray character comes along and attempts a pickup.

She told me that one day, she found herself sitting across from "a white guy in his 30's" who stared at her so shamelessly that she
felt uncomfortable and was relieved when the man finally left the car. But before the train pulled out of the station, the ogler
threw himself against the window and began to pound on the glass. "I love you!" he yelled. "I love you! You're the most beautiful
girl I've ever seen in my life."

Deeply embarrassed, Sophie didn't move. Her fellow passengers treated the man as if he were an invisible mute. But as the train
began to rumble forward, leaving the histrionic troubadour behind, the man sitting next to her looked up from his newspaper and said
in a deadpan voice, "It looks like you have an admirer."

By breaking the code, the man acknowledged himself as a witness to what, despite the pretense, had been a very public outburst. His
understatement not only defined the comedy inherent in the scene, but it also lifted my daughter out of the solitary misery that
comes from being the object of unwanted attention among strangers who collectively participate in a game of erasure. With those few
words, and at no cost to himself, he gave her what she needed ? a feeling of ordinary human solidarity.

The truth is that whatever we might pretend not to see or hear or sometimes smell, most of us actually see, hear and smell a lot.
Behind the mask of oblivion lies alertness (or exhaustion from having to be so alert). Daydreaming on a country road is one thing.
Daydreaming on Fifth Avenue with hundreds of other people striding down the same sidewalk is quite another. But because we are so
crowded here, active recognition of other people has become mostly a matter of choice. Even so, compliments, insults, banter, smiles
and genuine conversations among strangers are part of the city's noise, its stimulus, its charm. To live in strict accordance to the
Pretend Law all the time would be unbearably dull.

For us urbanites, there is a delight that comes from thinking on our feet, from sizing up situations and making the decision to act
or not to act. Most of the time, we insulate ourselves out of necessity, but once in a while we break through to one another and
discover unexpected depths of intelligence or heart or just plain sweetness. Whenever that happens, I am reminded of a truth:
everyone has an inner life that is as large and complex and rich as my own.

Sometimes a brief exchange with a stranger marks you forever, not because it is profound, but because it is uncommonly vivid. More
than 20 years ago, I saw a man sprawled on the sidewalk at Broadway and 105th Street. Unshaven, filthy and ragged, he lay on his
side in an apparent stupor, clutching a bottle in a torn and wrinkled paper bag. As I walked past, he suddenly propped himself up,
and called out: "Hey, beautiful! Want to have dinner with me?"

His question was so loud, so direct, that I stopped. Looking down at the man at my feet, I said, "Thank you so much for the
invitation, but I'm busy tonight."

Without a moment's hesitation, he grinned up at me, lifted the bottle in a mock toast and said, "Lunch?"

Siri Hustvedt's third novel, "What I Loved," will be published by Henry Holt in March.

--NYT 12/8/02


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard







From mmagee  Sun Dec  8 10:05:50 2002
From: mmagee (Michael Magee)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 10:05:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
In-Reply-To: <007b01c29e23$1438b5a0$5e07fea9@j1c1k6> from "Bob Grumman" at Dec 7, 2002 02:01:41 pm
Message-ID: <200212081505.gB8F5oN8004143@dept.english.upenn.edu>

According to Bob Grumman:
> 
> > David, I think, for what it's worth that the best book of poetry this past
> > year was Heather Fuller's DOVECOTE.
> 
> Excuse my crankiness, but surely you mean "the best book of poetry published
> in 2002 that you've read?"  Or have you read all the poetry books that were
> published this year?
> 
> --Bob G.

Bob, no, I've actually read every book of poetry published in the last
year, also every book of fiction and non-fiction and every children's
book.  I guess you could say I'm a voracious reader - thousands and
thousands of books which I read and then sell on ebay (see my auctions!).
I also see every film, if they don't come to my neighborhhod I go to New
York, Paris, Hong Kong and New Dehli to find them.  And I watch every
television sit-com and every drama on HBO - every episode!  And oh, every
album put out on every label I'm sure to give a listen. And I've been to
every gallery inthe world to see every exhibit.   And I can say with great
confidence that Heather Fuller's DOVECOTE is the best piece of cultural
expression made public Between January 1 and December 8, 2002.

-m.





From smith948  Sun Dec  8 12:34:11 2002
From: smith948 (ellen smith)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 12:34:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: empathy & art
In-Reply-To: <3DF30972.25951.1BEFC5@localhost>
References: <20021207170102.86057101EA@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
 <3DF30972.25951.1BEFC5@localhost>
Message-ID: <a05100300ba1932c68667@[165.190.124.251]>

Presto!  The slippery slope argument I had anticipated.
ems



>  > > > > Marcus Bales:
>>  > > > the apt uses of those skills and techniques that successfully create
>>  > > > empathy in the reader is good art, while inept uses that do not
>>  > > > succeed in creating empathy in the reader is bad art, in my view.
>>  >
>>  > Crisman Cooley:
>>  > > This is the same view I think that led Marcel Duchamp to the
>>  > choice of the
>>  > > Bottle Rack as a readymade.  Though I believe the Steel Comb is more
>>  > > empathetic.
>>  >
>>  > Marcus Bales:
>>  > I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here.
>>
>Crisman Cooley:
>>  I was trying out your idea by choosing what I thought would be the most
>>  extreme counter-example.  I like Alan Watts' notion that a thing and its
>>  opposite are one.  That is why I felt at liberty to agree with you, while
>>  proposing the antithesis of your idea.
>
>I was afraid you were going to say that.
>
>Crisman Cooley:
>>  ... (There are "further vistas of irony"
>>  in the "mystery" surrounding the choice of the Readymades.  John Cage (in
>>  music) later also abdicated that choice too.)  Readymades appear at first
>>  glance to be the death of art.  In fact, they can act as its revivification,
>>  by placing the responsibility for meaning creation in hands and the mind of
>>  the observer....<<
>
>Well, I disagree fundamentally with the entire notion that by signing
>something "as an artist" one has made it into art. That looks
>perilously close, to me, to the great western civilization notion of
>"discovery": steal whatever you please, so long as you claim you've
>discovered it instead of stolen it.  A friend of mine says, whenever
>someone mentions that Columbus discovered America "I see a fine-
>looking Cadillac over there.  I think I'll go discover it." To sign a
>bottle rack or a comb and claim it's thereby made into art is merely
>theft, not art.
>
>Crisman Cooley:
>>  This is true in the case also of a poem that creates empathy
>>  in an observer.  The poem does not contain the meaning or the empathy; these
>>  exist, if at all, in the mind of the observer. <
>
>This is silly.  Without the poem there can be nothing for the reader
>to read; nothing out of which to create art.  If you seriously hold
>that the art is only in the mind of the observer then everything is
>art: rape, murder, terrorism, the Grand Canyon, Niagra Falls, cloud
>formations, white noise, deep space, and silence.  Where there can be
>no useful distinction made between art and non-art there can be no
>art at all.  Holding that anything is art if a claimant says it is is
>a declaration that there is no art at all -- except perhaps the art
>of the scam or the con. And then the distinction between "good art"
>and "bad art" becomes merely a matter of salesmanship.  Good art is
>whatever the "market" will "buy" -- even if the medium of exchange is
>praise and reputation instead of money.
>
>Crisman Cooley:
>>  I am very sorry (or perhaps excited at the opportunity present) that I have
>>  found nothing in my investigation of contemporary poetry that matches the
>>  power of the Readymades to destroy art so that art might continue to live.<
>
>Well, fortunately for you, then, I happen to have right here to hand
>the very thing you seek.  Below is one of thousands of poems I've
>written, called "Quotations", to my prospective clients.  I hope
>you're a prominent editor of a prominent literary magazine so that
>you can take this opportunity to con your audience into accepting
>"Marcus Bales" as synonymous with "Marcel Duchamp" as a creator of
>readymades.  Thank you in advance.
>
>Bales&Price, Inc.
>Designer Glass, Wood, Polymers & Metal
>540 E. 105th Street  Cleveland, Ohio  44108
>Phone: (216) 268-5520  Facsimile: (216) 268-5540
>website: http://www.designerglass.com
>email: marcus at designerglass.com
>
>SUMMARY QUOTATION 98-1005
>Rectangle, Diamond, and Gothic designs
>SGO 1/2" Lead Rectangles and Gothic;
>1/4" Lead Diamonds & borders
>Pane		No of
>No.		Panes Description and size and design			Price
>
>1-3		3 Basement Doors 18-5/8x78-7/8 RECT			  229
>4-9		6 Basement Panels 19-1/4x47-1/4 RECT		  460
>10,11		2 Library Panels 19-1/4x35-1/4 DIAM w/ medallions	  785
>12,13		2 Front Entry Panels 15-1/4x47-1/4 DIAM		  235
>14,19		2 DR Transoms 11-1/4x29-1/4 RECT			  120
>15,20		2 DR Windows 11-1/4x67-1/4 RECT			  150
>16		3 DR Transoms 17-1/4x29-1/4 RECT			  120
>17,18		3 DR Windows 17-1/4x67-1/4 RECT w/ medallions	1230
>21		3 Kitchen Transoms 19-1/4x19-1/4 DIAM		    98
>22,23		3 Kitchen Windows 19-1/4x35-1/4 DIAM			  179
>24		1 Bathroom Window 19-1/4x29-1/4 DIAM		    49
>25,26		2 Garage Windows 19-1/4x47-1/4 DIAM			  138
>27,28		2 Garage Windows 19-1/4x41-1/4 DIAM			  158
>29		2 Laundry Transoms 23-1/4x11-1/4 RECT		  120
>30,31		2 Laundry Windows 23-1/4x29-1/4 RECT		  140
>32,35,38	6 Eating Area Transoms 23-1/4x11-1/4 RECT		  132
>33,34,36,37
>   39,40		6 Eating Area Windows 23-1/4x47-1/4 RECT 
>		  475
>41		1 Hearth Room Door 24-5/8x78-7/8 RECT		  109
>42,44		5 Hearth Room Transoms 29-1/4x11-1/4 RECT		  140
>43,45		5 Hearth Room Windows 29-1/4x47-1/4 RECT		  495
>46,47		2 Den Room Windows 23-1/4x53-1/4 RECT		  170
>48,49		6 Den Room Windows 19-1/4x29-1/4 RECT		  295
>50		1 Den Bath Window 19-1/4x29-1/4 RECT, w/ medallion	  350
>51,54		2 Library Sidelights 19-1/4x67-1/4 RECT		  180
>52,53		2 Library Doorlights 25-3/4x66-3/16 RECT, w/ medallion	  860
>55,56		2 Window Seat Windows 11-1/4x41-1/4 DIAM		  190
>57,58		3 Closet Windows 19-1/4x19-1/4 DIAM			  150
>59		1 Master Bath Toilet Window 19-1/4x19-1/4 DIAM	    49
>60,61		6 M Bath Windows 23-1/4x35-1/4 DIAM			  450
>62,63		2 M BR Windows 19-1/4x29-1/4 DIAM, w/medallion	  885
>64,65		2 M BR Doors 37-3/4x66-3/16 RECT			  208
>66,67		2 West Guest BR 23-1/4x53-1/4 RECT			  118
>68,69		2 South Guest BR 19-1/4x41-1/4 DIAM			  158
>GOTHIC	1 Single arched window, gothic arch, w/tri-foils & pts	  785
>GOTHIC	3 arched windows, gothic arch				  885
>		3 Rectangle windows					  650
>Total 
>	11,995.00
>Sketch Deposit paid 
>	(    500.00)
>Balance 
>	11,445.00
>
>Terms:  60% on approval of art; balance on delivery.  Please circle
>the options required, initial the circles, sign and date below, and
>return one signed copy with your deposit.  Please keep one copy for
>your records.
>
>_________________________________		_____________
>Accepted						Date
>
>
>Marcus Bales
>
>marcus at designerglass.com
>http://www.designerglass.com
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


-- 



From halvard  Sun Dec  8 10:47:22 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 10:47:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: empathy & art
In-Reply-To: <a05100300ba1932c68667@[165.190.124.251]>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEEHFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Nice one, Marcus. I can hear it being sung to the tune
of "The Twelve Days of Christmas."

Hal         "Always go to other people's funerals, otherwise
                they won't come to yours.
                                    --Yogi Berra
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard

{    >Well, fortunately for you, then, I happen to have right here to hand
{    >the very thing you seek.  Below is one of thousands of poems I've
{    >written, called "Quotations", to my prospective clients.  I hope
{    >you're a prominent editor of a prominent literary magazine so that
{    >you can take this opportunity to con your audience into accepting
{    >"Marcus Bales" as synonymous with "Marcel Duchamp" as a creator of
{    >readymades.  Thank you in advance.
{    >
{    >Bales&Price, Inc.
{    >Designer Glass, Wood, Polymers & Metal
{    >540 E. 105th Street  Cleveland, Ohio  44108
{    >Phone: (216) 268-5520  Facsimile: (216) 268-5540
{    >website: http://www.designerglass.com
{    >email: marcus at designerglass.com
{    >
{    >SUMMARY QUOTATION 98-1005
{    >Rectangle, Diamond, and Gothic designs
{    >SGO 1/2" Lead Rectangles and Gothic;
{    >1/4" Lead Diamonds & borders
{    >Pane		No of
{    >No.		Panes Description and size and design			Price
{    >
{    >1-3		3 Basement Doors 18-5/8x78-7/8 RECT			  229
{    >4-9		6 Basement Panels 19-1/4x47-1/4 RECT		  460
{    >10,11		2 Library Panels 19-1/4x35-1/4 DIAM w/ medallions	  785
{    >12,13		2 Front Entry Panels 15-1/4x47-1/4 DIAM		  235
{    >14,19		2 DR Transoms 11-1/4x29-1/4 RECT			  120
{    >15,20		2 DR Windows 11-1/4x67-1/4 RECT			  150
{    >16		3 DR Transoms 17-1/4x29-1/4 RECT			  120
{    >17,18		3 DR Windows 17-1/4x67-1/4 RECT w/ medallions	1230
{    >21		3 Kitchen Transoms 19-1/4x19-1/4 DIAM		    98
{    >22,23		3 Kitchen Windows 19-1/4x35-1/4 DIAM			  179
{    >24		1 Bathroom Window 19-1/4x29-1/4 DIAM		    49
{    >25,26		2 Garage Windows 19-1/4x47-1/4 DIAM			  138
{    >27,28		2 Garage Windows 19-1/4x41-1/4 DIAM			  158
{    >29		2 Laundry Transoms 23-1/4x11-1/4 RECT		  120
{    >30,31		2 Laundry Windows 23-1/4x29-1/4 RECT		  140
{    >32,35,38	6 Eating Area Transoms 23-1/4x11-1/4 RECT		  132
{    >33,34,36,37
{    >   39,40		6 Eating Area Windows 23-1/4x47-1/4 RECT 
{    >		  475
{    >41		1 Hearth Room Door 24-5/8x78-7/8 RECT		  109
{    >42,44		5 Hearth Room Transoms 29-1/4x11-1/4 RECT		  140
{    >43,45		5 Hearth Room Windows 29-1/4x47-1/4 RECT		  495
{    >46,47		2 Den Room Windows 23-1/4x53-1/4 RECT		  170
{    >48,49		6 Den Room Windows 19-1/4x29-1/4 RECT		  295
{    >50		1 Den Bath Window 19-1/4x29-1/4 RECT, w/ medallion	  350
{    >51,54		2 Library Sidelights 19-1/4x67-1/4 RECT		  180
{    >52,53		2 Library Doorlights 25-3/4x66-3/16 RECT, w/ medallion	  860
{    >55,56		2 Window Seat Windows 11-1/4x41-1/4 DIAM		  190
{    >57,58		3 Closet Windows 19-1/4x19-1/4 DIAM			  150
{    >59		1 Master Bath Toilet Window 19-1/4x19-1/4 DIAM	    49
{    >60,61		6 M Bath Windows 23-1/4x35-1/4 DIAM			  450
{    >62,63		2 M BR Windows 19-1/4x29-1/4 DIAM, w/medallion	  885
{    >64,65		2 M BR Doors 37-3/4x66-3/16 RECT			  208
{    >66,67		2 West Guest BR 23-1/4x53-1/4 RECT			  118
{    >68,69		2 South Guest BR 19-1/4x41-1/4 DIAM			  158
{    >GOTHIC	1 Single arched window, gothic arch, w/tri-foils & pts	  785
{    >GOTHIC	3 arched windows, gothic arch				  885
{    >		3 Rectangle windows					  650
{    >Total 
{    >	11,995.00
{    >Sketch Deposit paid 
{    >	(    500.00)
{    >Balance 
{    >	11,445.00
{    >
{    >Terms:  60% on approval of art; balance on delivery.  Please circle
{    >the options required, initial the circles, sign and date below, and
{    >return one signed copy with your deposit.  Please keep one copy for
{    >your records.
{    >
{    >_________________________________		_____________
{    >Accepted						Date
{    >
{    >
{    >Marcus Bales
{    >
{    >marcus at designerglass.com
{    >http://www.designerglass.com
{    >
{    >
{    >
{    >_______________________________________________
{    >New-Poetry mailing list
{    >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    
{    
{    -- 
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    




From MillB  Sun Dec  8 11:23:43 2002
From: MillB (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 11:23:43 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Robert Hershon, "How to Ride on the Woodlaw...
Message-ID: <151.188b832c.2b24cc0f@aol.com>

Hal:

Thank you for that!  We just got back from a Thanksgiving Day trip to NYC. . 
.

Mill




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From halvard  Sun Dec  8 11:35:39 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 11:35:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Robert Hershon, "How to Ride on the Woodlaw...
In-Reply-To: <151.188b832c.2b24cc0f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEEJFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Hmm, I had the feeling there were some out-of-towners in town.
Would it have been more helpful if I'd posted it *before* your trip?

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard

  Hal:

  Thank you for that!  We just got back from a Thanksgiving Day trip to NYC.
. .

  Mill




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From bobgrumman  Sun Dec  8 13:15:40 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 13:15:40 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
References: <200212081505.gB8F5oN8004143@dept.english.upenn.edu>
Message-ID: <001201c29ee5$d1c5dd60$3707fea9@j1c1k6>

> According to Bob Grumman:
> >
> > > David, I think, for what it's worth that the best book of poetry this
past
> > > year was Heather Fuller's DOVECOTE.
> >
> > Excuse my crankiness, but surely you mean "the best book of poetry
published
> > in 2002 that you've read?"  Or have you read all the poetry books that
were
> > published this year?
> >
> > --Bob G.
>
> Bob, no, I've actually read every book of poetry published in the last
> year, also every book of fiction and non-fiction and every children's
> book.  I guess you could say I'm a voracious reader - thousands and
> thousands of books which I read and then sell on ebay (see my auctions!).
> I also see every film, if they don't come to my neighborhhod I go to New
> York, Paris, Hong Kong and New Dehli to find them.  And I watch every
> television sit-com and every drama on HBO - every episode!  And oh, every
> album put out on every label I'm sure to give a listen. And I've been to
> every gallery inthe world to see every exhibit.   And I can say with great
> confidence that Heather Fuller's DOVECOTE is the best piece of cultural
> expression made public Between January 1 and December 8, 2002.
>
> -m.

I congratulate you, Michael.  I think you should have told us all this
before making your statement, though, so you wouldn't wrongly make us think
you were the kind of nitwit who edits anthologies of mostly mediocre poetry
and, on the basis of very little familiarity with what's out there, calls it
the best poetry published in some year or another.  Sure, this won't bother
the comfortable also mediocre who compose poetry and know what the editor
rilly meant.  That's because even those mediocrities whose work failed to
get in the anthology for that year can hope it will some other year.  But it
needlessly lowers the morale of better poets.  A preference for accurate
language over hype is no real burden and can make the world a nicer place
for most of us.

--Bob G.




From bobgrumman  Sun Dec  8 13:45:27 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 13:45:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy & art
References: <3DF311A9.11265.3C09D1@localhost>
Message-ID: <002c01c29ee9$fa6225e0$3707fea9@j1c1k6>

> > > Marcus Bales:
> > > Well it seemed to me at the time that "empathy" was being used to
> > > mean something like "create a pleasurable response, the greater, more
> > > sustained, and more complicatingly ramifying the better".
>
> Bob Grumman:
> > Probably so.
>
> Then it seems as if we agree --

About how "empathy" was used.

> except that you go on thereafter at
> some length apparently seeking a disagreement.

What I thought I was doing was clarifying more exactly my position.

> Marcus Bales:
> > >I don't
> > > think anyone is really disagreeing here on more than terminology,
> > > unless you're going to insist on "pleasurable" in the sense that it
> > > has to be only hedonistically pleasurable.
>
> Bob Grumman:
> > I would insist on pleasurable in the sense of causing pleasure.  But
that's
> > probably terminological, too, since I would argue that poems that some
> > people would say do not provide that
> > do.  A eulogy, say, that on the surface causes sorrow, ultimately--if
> > successful as a poem--causes more pleasure than pain.  (A sense of loss
> > overcome--in one way, by a triumphant translation into an artwork, and
by
> > the beauties of that artwork.)
>
> Well, this is like "poetry is as good as it prompts action" -- the
> question remains, "how much action, what kind of action, how soon?"

You've lost me.

> and the like.  If an eulogy causes pain to the widow but pleasure to
> the deceased fellow's enemies, do you count that a successful poem or
> not?

I consider it successful as a poem to the degree that it causes aesthetic
pleasure to an aesthespient (my latest term for receiver of an artwork).  A
eulogy, to be successful, would have to cause asethetic pleasure to its
aesthespients.  That it may cause pain or pleasure to someone for
non-aesthetic reasons does not count.


> Bob Grumman:
> > I'm not sure what "hedonistic" means, by the way.  It seems to me almost
> > entirely a propagandism meaning "pleasure I don't approve of" the way
> > "license" means "the liberty to do what I don't approve of."  I go along
> > with the idea that some pleasures are superior to others.  But a poem
that
> > successfully expresses any pleasure is, for me, a success.
>
> I meant "hedonistic pleasure" in the sense of "pleasure there is no
> denying as pleasure", as, for example, eating when hungry, drinking
> when thirsty, having sex when aroused, and the like: unequivocal
> pleasures, as opposed to the equivocal pleasures of art.

So you don't think there's the kind of need for art that there is for food?


> Marcus Bales;
> > > After all, what is empathy
> > > but a sustained, great, and complicatingly ramifying response?
>
> Bob Grumman:
> > One thing it can be is a short-lived, tiny, unramifying response.  One
can
> > empathize with a man who has lost a penny as well as with a man whose
house
> > has burned down.<<
>
> Context is all in this case; the widow who adds her mite to the
> offering, and the man who loses his very last penny may be people
> with whom we empathize, but not in an "short-lived, tiny, unramifying
> response".  With an ordinary fellow who loses a penny we are not
> likely to empathize, Bob -- or even sympathize -- unless it is a
> penny worth a good deal more than a penny.

Come on, Marcus.  I was obviously showing the difference between degrees of
empathy.  A poem can express empathy for small things and therefore be
small--but successful.


> Bob Grumman:
> > I don't see empathy as complicatingly ramifying, a phrase I am using
> > (because I can't offhand think of a better one) to mean something that
> > connects to many things beyond itself in space and time--for instance,
in
> > simple terms, a poem that becomes part of your outlook and response to
life
> > for life--which will probably include empathy but need not.<<
>
> It seems to me that one must indeed empathize in order to see the
> connections beyond a thing into space and time.  It is precisely
> those things, or events, or people, who guide us to see those
> connections with which or with whom we empathize -- that's what
> empathy *means*, it seems to me.  You seem to have some private
> definition of "empathy" that makes the use of the word to mean "a
> sustained, great, and complicatingly ramifying response" or
> "something that connects to many things beyond itself in space and
> time" anathema to you.

Why "anathema?"  I use "empathy" as getting sympathetically inside another's
mind or heart, more or less.  For me it is thus social, as opposed to
aesthetic, and art's main function, for me, is aesthetic, not social.  I
suppose you could use it to mean getting into an artwork, but not to any
advantage that I can see.
>
> Bob Grumman:
> > More than that I probably can't say because it would involve my going
into
> > the details of my theory of aesthetics, which is too involved for me to
get
> > into here, and which would bore just about everybody here if I did, and
were
> > coherent, which is unlikely.
>
> Ah -- the predictable "I know way more about this than I'm willing to
> say" ploy from Bob Grumman!  How ... predictable.

You're right, Marcus.  I should have said that I've once again bween pushed
by a master-mind to the limits of my knowledge of this subject and therefore
can't go on.

--Bob G.


--Bob G.




From bobgrumman  Sun Dec  8 13:47:56 2002
From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 13:47:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
References: <27.331d7e63.2b2397b3@aol.com> <00c301c29ec0$6b30b9a0$ec59bd18@MULDER>
Message-ID: <003b01c29eea$53440de0$3707fea9@j1c1k6>

> Has anyone seen my _Post-Avant_, out this year from Pavement Saw?
>
> http://www.pavementsaw.org/postavant.htm
>
> Dan Zimmerman

I have it but haven't had time to do more than skim it (also true of just
about every other book of any kind I've picked up this year).  I do remember
liking the few poems in it I had a chance to read!

--Bob G.





From JforJames  Sun Dec  8 14:35:55 2002
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 14:35:55 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: empathy & art
Message-ID: <27.33317516.2b24f91b@aol.com>

In a message dated 12/7/02 5:29:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
ccooley at overdomain.com writes:

> Readymades appear at first
>  glance to be the death of art.  In fact, they can act as its 
revivification,
>  by placing the responsibility for meaning creation in hands and the mind of
>  the observer.  This is true in the case also of a poem that creates empathy
>  in an observer.  The poem does not contain the meaning or the empathy; 
these
>  exist, if at all, in the mind of the observer.  This is the "role of the
>  reader", as Umberto Eco calls it.
>  
>  I am very sorry (or perhaps excited at the opportunity present) that I have
>  found nothing in my investigation of contemporary poetry that matches the
>  power of the Readymades to destroy art so that art might continue to live.
>  (I wonder if poetry has missed out its opportunity to embrace Dadaism.  And
>  I am open to enlightenment.)
>  
Crisman, the problem with Dada is that it's a dead-end. An endpoint. You
can't transcend...you can only retreat back into realm of the meaningful.
R. Mutt's "Font" was an important provocation...a testing of a limit. After 
the
limit is reached, to process can't really be repeated with any of the original
shock, elan or wit. In fact, what is left behind, the art itself, becomes 
something 
of a historical novelty...it's value being the in "the act" or "the 
statement." 
While the breadth and depth of art can only be extended, with great effort, 
from within. 
Finnegan
  



From Rsgwynn1  Sun Dec  8 14:54:33 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 14:54:33 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
Message-ID: <a3.34306ec4.2b24fd79@cs.com>

B. H. Fairchild's new book, the strange title of which is well known to this 
group.
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From halvard  Sun Dec  8 14:49:00 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 14:49:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ann Lauterbach, "Missing Ages"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEEPFPAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Missing Ages

1.

At times dry weight shifts vicariously on mental limbs like music
hurting remotely.

At times, fathers die and die, but
biography is a false persuasion.

Inhaling the night I am stitched to you
with incendiary sorrow.

A party? In costume, you say, and
invited to dwell in a sea of lords and ladies?
Quit smoking? Weep?
And those magnolias, are they
part of the wall, or of the rushing river
with its vestal gashes arriving on a whim of connective tissue, on air?

In a foreign land we will learn some songs.
They will last as long as the next gold rush.

2.

				This is my r?sum?. Hire me.
I am from January, where the winds are severe.
I am an immigrant from evening, hire me.
My father was a sweeper of secrets, a silk merchant
in Vienna, he had no boots, he had no lotion for his skin.
Hire me. This handkerchief is woven from ninety percent.
My daughters are in Mexico on a jaunt. They have not
read of the insurrection, they
do not get CNN. This is my black scarf. This is my painting of a jar.
Hire me. This is a photo of my husband
taken when he was a young man in jail.
I still remember sex, I can tell you stories
of such women you will invite me to your trial. The snow
stinks of yellow. Someone in a corner says thank you repeatedly.
Hire me. I am what you do not know and will not miss.

3.

The rapacious sky is as a winged figure
flaunting its rapture, a film
of film whose beginning middle and end
we will never see. Knowledge is form.
Wait for me under the apple tree on the blue sand.
A discordant glue travels into courage, and the cut
speeds along the finger's edge. Weather
confounds our dreams, we wake humid
with what we forgot while those who stay late
sleep in the margins, fools
for fools' gossip. Millions are spent
on regular episodes from that life.
Starved monks subsume an awful
delay, snowbound, iconoclastic, their
amnesia intact. I was a gallant trooper
thru the history of Nordic exploration,
I sank heavy water.
I wear the soiled increment
as a shield; my eyes break day by day
in sublime iteration: unbearable choice among peers.
We speak in tongues, yes?
All instances fill and empty as
the suction of love plays that rule, coming to stay
in the habits of an angel skinned by disbelief.
He raises the issue to emblematic stature:
nature loves a plague as much as a rose.

4.

The mutant veracity of almost.
The steep incline of a heart.
The dotted line of convention.
The little afterlife of hazard.
What spills from the mouth of the passionate dog.
The voice of reason, its ineptitude with layers.
The amulets of thieves; grief as such.
The occasion purloined.
A brother's best scarf.
A brother's gray scarf.
Between best and gray, an analogy.
Icon of an ordinary okay.
Between nine and fine.
The makeshift bed.
The national interest.

5.

Which from among these absences will you choose?
When the French girl arrives, no one will answer the phone for a week.
If I were invited to sleep over, I would bring
my dowsing rod, over which
you could say your prayers, but if we
touch the beautiful soul it will
never stop raining.
One by one, we are announced, and our
names are a weightless carriage.
Hire me. I live on the stairs. I go up and down.

--Ann Lauterbach

fr. *If in Time: Selected Poems: 1975-2000*
[New York: Penguin Poets, 2001]

orig. in *And For Example* (1994)

Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard





From halvard  Sun Dec  8 14:53:45 2002
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 14:53:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ann Lauterbach, "Missing Ages"
Message-ID: <002801c29ef3$848d75e0$73ddd23f@computer>

Missing Ages

1.

At times dry weight shifts vicariously on mental limbs like music
hurting remotely.

At times, fathers die and die, but
biography is a false persuasion.

Inhaling the night I am stitched to you
with incendiary sorrow.

A party? In costume, you say, and
invited to dwell in a sea of lords and ladies?
Quit smoking? Weep?
And those magnolias, are they
part of the wall, or of the rushing river
with its vestal gashes arriving on a whim of connective tissue, on air?

In a foreign land we will learn some songs.
They will last as long as the next gold rush.

2.

				This is my r?sum?. Hire me.
I am from January, where the winds are severe.
I am an immigrant from evening, hire me.
My father was a sweeper of secrets, a silk merchant
in Vienna, he had no boots, he had no lotion for his skin.
Hire me. This handkerchief is woven from ninety percent.
My daughters are in Mexico on a jaunt. They have not
read of the insurrection, they
do not get CNN. This is my black scarf. This is my painting of a jar.
Hire me. This is a photo of my husband
taken when he was a young man in jail.
I still remember sex, I can tell you stories
of such women you will invite me to your trial. The snow
stinks of yellow. Someone in a corner says thank you repeatedly.
Hire me. I am what you do not know and will not miss.

3.

The rapacious sky is as a winged figure
flaunting its rapture, a film
of film whose beginning middle and end
we will never see. Knowledge is form.
Wait for me under the apple tree on the blue sand.
A discordant glue travels into courage, and the cut
speeds along the finger's edge. Weather
confounds our dreams, we wake humid
with what we forgot while those who stay late
sleep in the margins, fools
for fools' gossip. Millions are spent
on regular episodes from that life.
Starved monks subsume an awful
delay, snowbound, iconoclastic, their
amnesia intact. I was a gallant trooper
thru the history of Nordic exploration,
I sank heavy water.
I wear the soiled increment
as a shield; my eyes break day by day
in sublime iteration: unbearable choice among peers.
We speak in tongues, yes?
All instances fill and empty as
the suction of love plays that rule, coming to stay
in the habits of an angel skinned by disbelief.
He raises the issue to emblematic stature:
nature loves a plague as much as a rose.

4.

The mutant veracity of almost.
The steep incline of a heart.
The dotted line of convention.
The little afterlife of hazard.
What spills from the mouth of the passionate dog.
The voice of reason, its ineptitude with layers.
The amulets of thieves; grief as such.
The occasion purloined.
A brother's best scarf.
A brother's gray scarf.
Between best and gray, an analogy.
Icon of an ordinary okay.
Between nine and fine.
The makeshift bed.
The national interest.

5.

Which from among these absences will you choose?
When the French girl arrives, no one will answer the phone for a week.
If I were invited to sleep over, I would bring
my dowsing rod, over which
you could say your prayers, but if we
touch the beautiful soul it will
never stop raining.
One by one, we are announced, and our
names are a weightless carriage.
Hire me. I live on the stairs. I go up and down.

--Ann Lauterbach

fr. *If in Time: Selected Poems: 1975-2000*
[New York: Penguin Poets, 2001]

orig. in *And For Example* (1994)

Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard





From grahamd  Sun Dec  8 15:32:06 2002
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 14:32:06 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fairchild
Message-ID: <200212082031.gB8KVxAe015989@mx7.mx.voyager.net>

I'll add my praise to Fairchild's book of the unfortunate title.  Even more
unfortunate, in my mind, is William Logan's review of it in The New
Criterion (http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/21/dec02/logan.htm).  Fellow
victims of the review include Mark Doty and Li-Young Lee.

Here's some of what Logan has to say about Fairchild's work:

++++++++++++
There?s nothing wrong with making noble figures of factory workers?Stalin
thought it a fine thing, and the good communist boilermakers who flexed
their biceps in socialist realist painting were little different from the
muscled coal-mining democrats in the post-office murals of the WPA. Long ago
the Romantics had their shepherds, and before them Milton his shepherds, and
before him Virgil and Theocritus their shepherds. There?s nothing wrong with
romanticizing the working man, except it?s usually the work of a deskbound
poet whose nearest brush with hard labor comes, these days, from what he
sees in the movies. 

There?s nothing wrong with it, but does the lice-ridden shepherd or the coal
miner dying from black lung ever feel quite so noble? I?m reminded of a poet
who on the basis of a few long-ago weeks sweeping factory floors became the
laureate of the factory floor. Even when Fairchild touches on the grinding
boredom of nine-to-five jobs, there remains a varnish of
romance?condescension disguised as apotheosis. Soon the poet?s gaze, because
he is a poet, turns instead to chokecherries that "gouge the purpled sky" or
a sun that "dissolves behind the pearl-gray strands/ of a cirrus and the
frayed, flaming branches/ along the creek"?gorgeous scenes, but like a lurid
landscape by Bierstadt hanging behind a scrap pile.
++++++++++++

For contrast, here is Anthony Hecht's blurb from the book jacket:

 "There is no more lyric celebration of America's grandeurs  and
desolations?not regarded here as separate facets of  our lives and
landscapes, but as completely fused in our hopes and despairs?than this
superb collection of poems.  Mr. Fairchild here surpasses himself in his
unflinching  vision and exaltation of spirit. These poems do honor to our 
country, and should rank with the best of our poetry."
 ?Anthony Hecht
-----------------------

Read several poems from Fairchild's book at the Norton website:  

http://www.nortonpoets.com/fairchildb.htm

========================================
David Graham
Professor of English, Ripon College
grahamd at ripon.edu
   Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
   Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html

"We're writing the book on quality: personal, 
undergraduate education."
   Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
=======================================


----------
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
Date: Sun, Dec 8, 2002, 1:54 PM


B. H. Fairchild's new book, the strange title of which is well known to this
group. 
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From MillB  Sun Dec  8 16:30:30 2002
From: MillB (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 16:30:30 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: First Books
Message-ID: <2d.27b342d6.2b2513f6@aol.com>

Greetings List--

I'm working on a non-fiction piece about "first books," and I am hoping that 
those of you with at least one book published might be willing to answer a 
few questions? 

(maybe during the "free time" after you have turned in your grade books and 
before you have started wrapping gifts?)

I finished grad school in 1993 (at USC) and since that time I've been 
attempting to get my own poetry manuscript accepted by a publisher, and I 
thought that perhaps an investigation about how established authors' first 
books were published might shed some light on the process and also be helpful 
to emerging writers.

My own career has included grants from the NEA, the California Arts Council, 
and Barbara Deming--as well as residencies at Yaddo and Vermont Studio 
Center.  Witness, Interim, Laurel Review, the Wallace Stevens Journal, Tampa 
Review and anthologies, including Boomer Girls (U. of Iowa) are recent 
credits.  

Venice, CA is my home, and, when I'm not a starving poet, I freelance as a 
technical writer in the oil industry. 

Pasted below are some questions; I would greatly appreciate any responses 
that folks on the list would care to give.  

I hope everyone has a pleasant holiday season.

Sincerely,


Millicent C. Borges

<A HREF="http://www.mercygirl.com/borges">http://www.mercygirl.com/borges</A>


 Questions 

1) Describe the circumstances about how your first book was published.









2) Were you given any particularly awful or disappointing rejections?








3) Was there anything odd or special about your first book acceptance?  
Strange coincidences?  Like, for example, you mixed up the addresses (mailed 
to Miami instead of Iowa) or sent in the manuscript at the last minute?  
Maybe a lucky charm?








4) Was there a mentor or person who encouraged or helped you? 







5) What poetry book had the most impact on your own writing and why?

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From smith948  Sun Dec  8 18:16:22 2002
From: smith948 (ellen smith)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 18:16:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fairchild
In-Reply-To: <200212082031.gB8KVxAe015989@mx7.mx.voyager.net>
References: <200212082031.gB8KVxAe015989@mx7.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <a05100304ba1981ef205a@[165.190.124.251]>

And, having said my say on Logan's Ninja-ness, I have to say that 
what he says as a caveat in his review of Fairchild is a legitimate 
caveat.  What he really is suggesting here is far more radical than 
blithe celebration of blue-collar work:  how do poets, in addition to 
corporate entities, exploit this persons, stealing from them their 
grit of authenticity and then aestheticizing the grit with some 
uplifting image?  Look, I'm from Pittsburgh...where we turn out such 
poems at the rate at which we used to turn out steel.  I think it's 
only right to second-guess poets' motives and methods in this poetic 
industry.  I'll have to read the rest of the review to get a sense of 
whether or not this is Logan at his meanest.  But, based on the 
excerpt David's provided here, this is Logan at simmer strength and 
he doesn't cross any lines as far as I can see between fair and 
unfair criticism.
ellen s.


>I'll add my praise to Fairchild's book of the unfortunate title. 
> Even more unfortunate, in my mind, is William Logan's review of it 
>in The New Criterion 
>(http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/21/dec02/logan.htm).  Fellow 
>victims of the review include Mark Doty and Li-Young Lee.
>
>Here's some of what Logan has to say about Fairchild's work:
>
>++++++++++++
>There?s nothing wrong with making noble figures of factory 
>workers?Stalin thought it a fine thing, and the good communist 
>boilermakers who flexed their biceps in socialist realist painting 
>were little different from the muscled coal-mining democrats in the 
>post-office murals of the WPA. Long ago the Romantics had their 
>shepherds, and before them Milton his shepherds, and before him 
>Virgil and Theocritus their shepherds. There?s nothing wrong with 
>romanticizing the working man, except it?s usually the work of a 
>deskbound poet whose nearest brush with hard labor comes, these 
>days, from what he sees in the movies.
>
>There?s nothing wrong with it, but does the lice-ridden shepherd or 
>the coal miner dying from black lung ever feel quite so noble? I?m 
>reminded of a poet who on the basis of a few long-ago weeks sweeping 
>factory floors became the laureate of the factory floor. Even when 
>Fairchild touches on the grinding boredom of nine-to-five jobs, 
>there remains a varnish of romance?condescension disguised as 
>apotheosis. Soon the poet?s gaze, because he is a poet, turns 
>instead to chokecherries that "gouge the purpled sky" or a sun that 
>"dissolves behind the pearl-gray strands/ of a cirrus and the 
>frayed, flaming branches/ along the creek"?gorgeous scenes, but like 
>a lurid landscape by Bierstadt hanging behind a scrap pile.
>++++++++++++
>
>For contrast, here is Anthony Hecht's blurb from the book jacket:
>
>  "There is no more lyric celebration of America's grandeurs  and 
>desolations?not regarded here as separate facets of  our lives and 
>landscapes, but as completely fused in our hopes and despairs?than 
>this superb collection of poems.  Mr. Fairchild here surpasses 
>himself in his unflinching  vision and exaltation of spirit. These 
>poems do honor to our  country, and should rank with the best of our 
>poetry."
>  ?Anthony Hecht
>-----------------------
>
>Read several poems from Fairchild's book at the Norton website:  
>
>http://www.nortonpoets.com/fairchildb.htm
>
>========================================
>David Graham
>Professor of English, Ripon College
>grahamd at ripon.edu
>    Home Page:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>    Poetry Library:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>
>"We're writing the book on quality: personal,
>undergraduate education."
>    Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
>=======================================
>
>
>----------
>From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
>Date: Sun, Dec 8, 2002, 1:54 PM
>
>B. H. Fairchild's new book, the strange title of which is well known 
>to this group.


-- 
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From smith948  Sun Dec  8 18:19:25 2002
From: smith948 (ellen smith)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 18:19:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fairchild
In-Reply-To: <200212082031.gB8KVxAe015989@mx7.mx.voyager.net>
References: <200212082031.gB8KVxAe015989@mx7.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <a05100303ba197fcfa08e@[165.190.124.251]>

In my soon to be defended doctoral dissertation entitled 
"Deritualization, Sincerity, and Accessibility:  Protestant Poetics 
and Twentieth-Century American Poetry" (coming to a Blockbuster video 
store near you, I'm sure), I dub Logan the "critic who is always to 
be counted on to toss a ninja star or two".  I do this neither to 
approve or disapprove of his approach, but in order to contextualize 
his review of Snodgrass's Collected.  In fact, I feel as though it is 
a neutral, accurate observation.  I suppose we should just recognize 
his ninja-ness, take it for granted, and keep our heads low.  Of 
course, to receive praise from him is that much more pleasing, in the 
manner of the slave who is patted on the head by the dominatrix 
retracting, for the moment, her/his nine-inch nails.  A poet's book 
entering a column of his is like a submissive entering a dungeon. 
The question remains:  is there a safe word?
ellen s.


>I'll add my praise to Fairchild's book of the unfortunate title. 
> Even more unfortunate, in my mind, is William Logan's review of it 
>in The New Criterion 
>(http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/21/dec02/logan.htm).  Fellow 
>victims of the review include Mark Doty and Li-Young Lee.
>
>Here's some of what Logan has to say about Fairchild's work:
>
>++++++++++++
>There?s nothing wrong with making noble figures of factory 
>workers?Stalin thought it a fine thing, and the good communist 
>boilermakers who flexed their biceps in socialist realist painting 
>were little different from the muscled coal-mining democrats in the 
>post-office murals of the WPA. Long ago the Romantics had their 
>shepherds, and before them Milton his shepherds, and before him 
>Virgil and Theocritus their shepherds. There?s nothing wrong with 
>romanticizing the working man, except it?s usually the work of a 
>deskbound poet whose nearest brush with hard labor comes, these 
>days, from what he sees in the movies.
>
>There?s nothing wrong with it, but does the lice-ridden shepherd or 
>the coal miner dying from black lung ever feel quite so noble? I?m 
>reminded of a poet who on the basis of a few long-ago weeks sweeping 
>factory floors became the laureate of the factory floor. Even when 
>Fairchild touches on the grinding boredom of nine-to-five jobs, 
>there remains a varnish of romance?condescension disguised as 
>apotheosis. Soon the poet?s gaze, because he is a poet, turns 
>instead to chokecherries that "gouge the purpled sky" or a sun that 
>"dissolves behind the pearl-gray strands/ of a cirrus and the 
>frayed, flaming branches/ along the creek"?gorgeous scenes, but like 
>a lurid landscape by Bierstadt hanging behind a scrap pile.
>++++++++++++
>
>For contrast, here is Anthony Hecht's blurb from the book jacket:
>
>  "There is no more lyric celebration of America's grandeurs  and 
>desolations?not regarded here as separate facets of  our lives and 
>landscapes, but as completely fused in our hopes and despairs?than 
>this superb collection of poems.  Mr. Fairchild here surpasses 
>himself in his unflinching  vision and exaltation of spirit. These 
>poems do honor to our  country, and should rank with the best of our 
>poetry."
>  ?Anthony Hecht
>-----------------------
>
>Read several poems from Fairchild's book at the Norton website:  
>
>http://www.nortonpoets.com/fairchildb.htm
>
>========================================
>David Graham
>Professor of English, Ripon College
>grahamd at ripon.edu
>    Home Page:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
>    Poetry Library:
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
>
>"We're writing the book on quality: personal,
>undergraduate education."
>    Experience Ripon at http://www.ripon.edu
>=======================================
>
>
>----------
>From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
>Date: Sun, Dec 8, 2002, 1:54 PM
>
>B. H. Fairchild's new book, the strange title of which is well known 
>to this group.


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From gmguddi  Sun Dec  8 17:29:38 2002
From: gmguddi (gmguddi at ilstu.edu)
Date: Sun,  8 Dec 2002 16:29:38 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II -- a defense of poetry
In-Reply-To: <20021208135225.8E37C11E4B@sitemail.everyone.net>
References: <20021208135225.8E37C11E4B@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <1039386578.3df3c7d247bdc@webmail2.ilstu.edu>

I don't know about "best," but I do know that my book A DEFENSE OF POETRY was 
published in 2002, (last month, in fact). The book won the Agnes Lynch Starrett 
Prize and is published as part of the Pitt Poetry Series. Work in the book 
appears in FENCE, AMERICAN POETRY REVIEW (9 of the poems appear in APR), IOWA 
REVIEW, THE EAST VILLAGE, THE NATION, CONDUIT, GMR, ACM, ETC, ETC. 

The title poem "A Defense of Poetry" is included in the Scribner anthology 
GREAT AMERICAN PROSE POEMS: FROM POE TO THE PRESENT, edited by David Lehman and 
due April 2003. Generally, the book is violent and tasteless, with work ranging 
across the various spectra (narrative to lyric, formal to not, tasteful to 
tasteless), in an attempt to speak from a carnivalesque vantage upon poetry and 
all that poetry can defend against. 

Gabriel Gudding

------------------------------------------------------------
Illinois State University Webmail https://webmail2.ilstu.edu



From Rsgwynn1  Sun Dec  8 17:39:09 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 17:39:09 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fairchild
Message-ID: <169.1838144b.2b25240d@cs.com>

In a message dated 12/8/2002 2:33:07 PM Central Standard Time, 
grahamd at ripon.edu writes: 
> 
> I'll add my praise to Fairchild's book of the unfortunate title.  Even more 
> unfortunate, in my mind, is William Logan's review of it in The New 
> Criterion (http://www.newcriterion.com/archive/21/dec02/logan.htm).  Fellow 
> victims of the review include Mark Doty and Li-Young Lee.
O woe.  O misery.  O'Logan.
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From antrobin  Sun Dec  8 17:51:14 2002
From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 14:51:14 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II -- a defense of poetry
References: <20021208135225.8E37C11E4B@sitemail.everyone.net> <1039386578.3df3c7d247bdc@webmail2.ilstu.edu>
Message-ID: <000f01c29f0c$539e4360$48acefd8@0021936706>

Despite my distaste for Gudding's proclivity to write about the anus, "A
Defense of Poetry" is fabulous.
I highly recommend it.

Tony
***
"The incredible never surprises us because it is the incredible."
Emily Dickinson

***
"I have obtained an aphrodisiac. It is made from the pockets of the Pocket
Fox, a rare animal that only existed for three weeks in the sixteenth
century."
C. Montgomery Burns

***
"The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous gap in poetry
which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but which would be
better left alone."
Kenneth Koch

***
...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us but yet its in
us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals.
Russell Hoban, "Riddley Walker"





From mmagee  Sun Dec  8 20:59:29 2002
From: mmagee (Michael Magee)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 20:59:29 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
In-Reply-To: <001201c29ee5$d1c5dd60$3707fea9@j1c1k6> from "Bob Grumman" at Dec 8, 2002 01:15:40 pm
Message-ID: <200212090159.gB91xT67023043@dept.english.upenn.edu>

Ah, Bob, you seem to have taken my post much too seriously, just having
some fun.  Of course I haven't read every book of poetry published this
year, you silly goose, and in my oringal post I just assumed that was
implied.  As the editor of a poetry mag I get many, many books of poems
sent to me (more than I should given my light number of reviews!) and I do
read almost all of them.  The range is fairly wide.  And, all kidding
aside, you really should check out Fuller's DOVECOTE.  It's a brilliant
book which juts between contexts of urban D.C. and struggling Appalachian
communities. It's certainly got nothing to do with the politics of
anthologies, put out by Edge Books (also responsible for excellent books
by Jennifer Moxley and Anselm Berrigan recently).  Incidentally, K. Silem
Mohammad has an excellent review of Moxley's book in the soon to be
released 11th issue of COMBO.  -m.

 According to Bob Grumman: > > >
According to Bob Grumman: > > >
> > > > David, I think, for what it's worth that the best book of poetry this
> past
> > > > year was Heather Fuller's DOVECOTE.
> > >
> > > Excuse my crankiness, but surely you mean "the best book of poetry
> published
> > > in 2002 that you've read?"  Or have you read all the poetry books that
> were
> > > published this year?
> > >
> > > --Bob G.
> >
> > Bob, no, I've actually read every book of poetry published in the last
> > year, also every book of fiction and non-fiction and every children's
> > book.  I guess you could say I'm a voracious reader - thousands and
> > thousands of books which I read and then sell on ebay (see my auctions!).
> > I also see every film, if they don't come to my neighborhhod I go to New
> > York, Paris, Hong Kong and New Dehli to find them.  And I watch every
> > television sit-com and every drama on HBO - every episode!  And oh, every
> > album put out on every label I'm sure to give a listen. And I've been to
> > every gallery inthe world to see every exhibit.   And I can say with great
> > confidence that Heather Fuller's DOVECOTE is the best piece of cultural
> > expression made public Between January 1 and December 8, 2002.
> >
> > -m.
> 
> I congratulate you, Michael.  I think you should have told us all this
> before making your statement, though, so you wouldn't wrongly make us think
> you were the kind of nitwit who edits anthologies of mostly mediocre poetry
> and, on the basis of very little familiarity with what's out there, calls it
> the best poetry published in some year or another.  Sure, this won't bother
> the comfortable also mediocre who compose poetry and know what the editor
> rilly meant.  That's because even those mediocrities whose work failed to
> get in the anthology for that year can hope it will some other year.  But it
> needlessly lowers the morale of better poets.  A preference for accurate
> language over hype is no real burden and can make the world a nicer place
> for most of us.
> 
> --Bob G.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From ccooley  Mon Dec  9 00:28:10 2002
From: ccooley (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 21:28:10 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] art & empathy: to Ellen
In-Reply-To: <20021208134802.3311610619@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <IFEJKAJEJBEOJGHBHOCHEELDCCAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>

> Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2002 19:50:26 -0500
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> From: ellen smith <smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: empathy & art
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
> Crisman:  Having received, recently, 35 reading journals from
> undergraduates who were to apply various improvisation reading
> strategies

Sounds fun.

> to Harryette Mullen's extremely daunting book-length poem
> *Muse and Drudge*, I would say that much experimental poetry can
> elicit the shifting of responsibility that the Readymades did.

I haven't read the book, but I'll get it and read it on your recommendation.
I like daunting book-length poems as a general rule.

> Since
> much of what Mullen does is in the manner of Readymades (Like WCW and
> Moore, weaving snippets of others' words/phrases into her own text,

Yes I read WCW this way and certainly his idea that "anything can be made
into a poem" is a modern idea.

> even the most trite commonplaces, which take on new life through
> context or wordplay), it can elicit in readers the creative impulse
> (which, in effect, does cause "art" to resurrect in readers' hands
> after being "killed").  What I'm not sure about is where empathy fits
> in...unless you mean that, by being forced into the producer position
> (rather than the passive consumer position), the reader might
> empathetically come to know the producer position?

I went to Webster's to try to answer this.
Empathy: 1. the imaginative projection of a subjective state, whether
affective, conative or cognitive, into an object so that the object appears
to be infused with it : the reading of one's own state of mind or conation
into an object (as an artistic object).

This is a startling definition, at least to me, since it puts all of the
responsibility for empathy on the reader's "imaginative projection" (where I
believe it belongs).  I don't need to have any connection at all with the
producer of the object; the relationship can be directly with the object
itself.  Empathy, then, includes such phenomena as my admiration of
stainless steel drinking cups, though I doubt they are made with aesthetics
in mind.  (Or have I simply confirmed a marketer's prediction of my
response?)  I have known many people who love their car.  My brother loved
his Z3 when he'd only known it for three or four days.  We should remember
in this context Duchamp's amusement at the mechanization of eros.  This is
where empathy fits in: we are in love, through the act of imaginative
projection, with the manufactured objects that surround us.  But they also
bore us, anger us, entertain us, etc., all potentially empathic states.

> Of course, you
> can expect to hear a host of "slippery slope" type counterarguments
> to your claim, such as, where do you draw the line?

We live on this slippery slope.  Seems hospitable enough to me.

>Can't a mold
> stain on the wall also call forth an active, creative response from
> its viewer?

Yes, disgust.  Or tiredness at having to clean the wall.  Or fear at the
prospect of airborne disease.  And so on.

> But, of course, that was also what DuC was calling forth
> through his readymades?  A mad scramble on the part of viewers to try
> to articulate what they thought art would,could, should be?

Yes, I believe it was that, too.

> ellen s.





From Thom424  Mon Dec  9 00:45:51 2002
From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 00:45:51 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: NYTimes.com Article: U.S. Writers Do Cultural Battle Around the Globe
Message-ID: <1ad.d4c74a0.2b25880f@aol.com>

My apologies for this long-ish post, but I though it would be interesting to 
hear responses to it from the folks on this list. Sorry, too, if you've 
already read it.

Thom Tammaro
Moorhead, MN 

*****************************************************************

U.S. Writers Do Cultural Battle Around the Globe

December 7, 2002
By MICHAEL Z. WISE 

The Bush administration has recruited prominent American
writers to contribute to a State Department anthology and
give readings around the globe in a campaign started after
9/11 to use culture to further American diplomatic
interests. 

The participants include four Pulitzer Prize winners,
Michael Chabon, Robert Olen Butler, David Herbert Donald
and Richard Ford; the American poet laureate, Billy
Collins; two Arab-Americans, Naomi Shihab Nye and Elmaz
Abinader; and Robert Pinsky, Charles Johnson, Bharati
Mukherjee and Sven Birkerts. They were all asked to write
about what it means to be an American writer. 

Although the State Department plans to distribute the
60-page booklet of 15 essays free at American embassies
worldwide in the next few weeks, one country has already
banned the anthology: the United States. The Smith-Mundt
Act of 1948, renewed when the United States Information
Agency became part of the State Department three years ago,
bars the domestic dissemination of official American
information aimed at foreign audiences. 

"There were Congressional fears of the government
propagandizing the American people," said George Clack, the
State Department editor who produced the anthology. The
essays can, however, be read on a government Web site
intended for foreigners
(usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/writers). "We do not
provide that address to U.S. citizens," Mr. Clack said,
adding, "Technology has made a law obsolete, but the law
lives on." 

Despite the domestic blackout, the participants are focused
on the potential abroad. "There is the perception abroad
that Americans feel culturally superior and are
intellectually indifferent," said Mr. Ford, who won the
Pulitzer in 1996 for his novel "Independence Day." "Those
stereotypes need to be burst." He added that he was eager
to go to Islamic nations to help "humanize America" and
present a more diverse picture of public opinion than is
conveyed by the Bush administration. "With a government
like the one we have, when not even 50 percent of Americans
voted for the president, the diversity of opinion is not
represented," he said. 

Stuart Holliday, a former White House aide to President
Bush who is overseeing the anthology publication as
coordinator of the State Department's Office of
International Information Programs, said: "We're shining a
spotlight on those aspects of our culture that tell the
American story. The volume of material is there. The
question is how can it be augmented to give a clearer
picture of who we are." 

Before the cold war ended, the United States often sent
orchestras, dance troupes and other artists abroad to
infiltrate Communist societies culturally. Writers like
John Updike, Kurt Vonnegut, Edward Albee and E. L. Doctorow
gave government-sponsored readings in Eastern Europe that
used literature on behalf of American interests. 

"People lined up for blocks," recalled William H. Luers, a
former American ambassador to Czechoslovakia and later
president of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, speaking of
Mr. Updike's appearance at the embassy in Prague in the
mid-1980's. 

But the United States Information Agency, which ran that
campaign, was folded into the State Department in 1999, and
over the last 10 years such programs have been severely
reduced. 

Since 9/11, though, the State Department has increased its
efforts to communicate American values to overseas
audiences. Mr. Holliday described the anthology, for
example, as complementing efforts by Charlotte Beers, a
former Madison Avenue advertising executive who is now
under secretary of state for public diplomacy, to sell the
United States to often hostile Muslim populations. 

Her campaign includes "Next Chapter," a television show
broadcast by the Voice of America in Iran, a worldwide
traveling exhibition of photographs of the ravaged World
Trade Center site by Joel Meyerowitz, the distribution of
videos spotlighting tolerance for American Muslims and a
pamphlet showing Muslims as part of mainstream American
life. 

Christopher Ross, the State Department's special
coordinator for public diplomacy, has advocated reviving
official cultural programs abroad as a "cost-effective
investment to ensure U.S. national security" and a way to
combat "the skewed, negative and unrepresentative" image of
America that he says most people of the world absorb
through mass culture and communications. Yet even some of
the authors expressed mixed feelings about just how
effective such cultural exposure would ultimately prove. 

In an interview, Billy Collins quoted Auden's famous line
that "poetry makes nothing happen," but Mr. Collins
tempered that comment by adding: "I think there are some
cases where it can. I don't think a group of American
writers is going to bring peace to the Middle East, but it
puts something in the media that is a counterbalance to the
growling and hostilities that fill the pages. It would have
a positive and softening influence on things." And while
Mr. Collins said he has agreed to join a tour abroad, he
added, "It's not a particularly good time for unarmed
American poets to be wandering around Jordan and Syria." 

Ms. Abinader was more optimistic about the potential for
the literary initiative to change foreign perceptions. "I
don't think I'm going to grab a terrorist by the lapels and
say, `There's a better way of doing things,' " she said.
"But what you can do is inspire a different kind of power.
That's the power of the word." 

Some of the anthology's authors, paid $2,499 by the
government, praise the freedoms they enjoy in the United
States, but the collection by no means presents an
uncritical picture of the United States. Julia Alvarez, a
novelist and poet who moved from the Dominican Republic
when she was young, writes that America is not "free of
problems or inequalities or even hypocrisies." Robert Olen
Butler says that the United States, though `built on the
preservation of the rights of minorities, has sometimes
been slow to apply those rights fully." Michael Chabon
tells of crime and racial unrest in his hometown, Columbia,
Md. 

The poet Robert Creeley said that although the Sept. 11
attacks led to an outpouring of poetry to express sorrow,
this "passed quickly as the country regained its
equilibrium, turned to the conduct of an aggressive war
and, one has to recognize, went back to making money." 

Ms. Abinader, the daughter of Lebanese immigrants to
Pennsylvania, recalls being subjected to racist remarks by
her classmates because of her dark complexion. Later in her
academic career, she says, "feelings toward Arabs became
more negative and sometimes bordered on distrust, even from
my own colleagues." 

The other Arab-American in the volume, Naomi Shihab Nye,
was asked to contribute after the State Department took
note of an open letter she wrote "to any would-be
terrorists" the week after Sept. 11. "I beg you, as your
distant Arab cousin, as your American neighbor, listen to
me," she wrote in the letter distributed on the Internet
and printed in several Arabic-language newspapers. "Our
hearts are broken, as yours may also feel broken in some
ways we can't understand unless you tell us in words.
Killing people won't tell us. We can't read that message.
Find another way to live. Don't expect others to be like
you." 

Some 31,000 English-language copies of the new anthology
will be available abroad. Editions in Arabic, French,
Spanish and Russian are also being prepared. Additional
translations into two dozen other languages are expected,
with a total of about 100,000 copies likely to be
distributed in the next few years. Mr. Holliday said he
hoped that the essays would also be reprinted in foreign
newspapers and that students abroad would use the texts as
course material and to learn English. 

All but one of the articles appear for the first time in
the volume; the essay by Mr. Chabon is a reprint. 

Mr. Luers applauded the anthology but urged a more
coordinated and intensive program of cultural diplomacy.
"We have to find ways to convey not just propaganda but the
richness of this country's culture," he said. "It's
pathetic that we don't make an effort. Very educated people
abroad don't realize the depths of our culture behind
McDonald's and the violent movies." ?

Copyright 2002 The New York Times Company




From ccooley  Mon Dec  9 01:18:13 2002
From: ccooley (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 22:18:13 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] art & empathy: to Marcus
In-Reply-To: <20021208134802.3311610619@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <IFEJKAJEJBEOJGHBHOCHMELDCCAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>

Marcus wrote:

> Well, I disagree fundamentally with the entire notion that by signing
> something "as an artist" one has made it into art. That looks
> perilously close, to me, to the great western civilization notion of
> "discovery": steal whatever you please, so long as you claim you've
> discovered it instead of stolen it.  A friend of mine says, whenever
> someone mentions that Columbus discovered America "I see a fine-
> looking Cadillac over there.  I think I'll go discover it." To sign a
> bottle rack or a comb and claim it's thereby made into art is merely
> theft, not art.

Crisman wrote:
You can discover someone else's Cadillac as your own, but the consequence is
that you may have trouble with the law, because the context of the law
probably lies outside your control.  Columbus got away with his "discovery"
because the Spanish were able to control the context in which his action was
interpreted.  Your analogy is true, in my opinion, in that Spanish
occupation and Duchamp's "occupation" of the readymades occurred by writ.
But Duchamp did not claim to have made the object; instead, he was making
the new context in which the object was to be interpreted.

>
> Crisman Cooley:
> > This is true in the case also of a poem that creates empathy
> > in an observer.  The poem does not contain the meaning or the
> empathy; these
> > exist, if at all, in the mind of the observer. <
>
> This is silly.  Without the poem there can be nothing for the reader
> to read; nothing out of which to create art.  If you seriously hold
> that the art is only in the mind of the observer then everything is
> art: rape, murder, terrorism, the Grand Canyon, Niagra Falls, cloud
> formations, white noise, deep space, and silence.  Where there can be
> no useful distinction made between art and non-art there can be no
> art at all.

Yes I agree.  And the particular placement of the distinction is arbitrary,
though subject to negotiation and agreement.

> Holding that anything is art if a claimant says it is is
> a declaration that there is no art at all -- except perhaps the art
> of the scam or the con. And then the distinction between "good art"
> and "bad art" becomes merely a matter of salesmanship.  Good art is
> whatever the "market" will "buy" -- even if the medium of exchange is
> praise and reputation instead of money.

I believe that is correct.  Plato is great because we say so.

>
> Crisman Cooley:
> > I am very sorry (or perhaps excited at the opportunity present)
> that I have
> > found nothing in my investigation of contemporary poetry that
> matches the
> > power of the Readymades to destroy art so that art might
> continue to live.<
>
> Well, fortunately for you, then, I happen to have right here to hand
> the very thing you seek.  Below is one of thousands of poems I've
> written, called "Quotations", to my prospective clients.  I hope
> you're a prominent editor of a prominent literary magazine so that
> you can take this opportunity to con your audience into accepting
> "Marcus Bales" as synonymous with "Marcel Duchamp" as a creator of
> readymades.  Thank you in advance.

I like it.  But the price seems high.  $11,445?

>
> Bales&Price, Inc.
> Designer Glass, Wood, Polymers & Metal
> 540 E. 105th Street  Cleveland, Ohio  44108
> Phone: (216) 268-5520  Facsimile: (216) 268-5540
> website: http://www.designerglass.com
> email: marcus at designerglass.com
>
> SUMMARY QUOTATION 98-1005
> Rectangle, Diamond, and Gothic designs
> SGO 1/2" Lead Rectangles and Gothic;
> 1/4" Lead Diamonds & borders
> Pane		No of
> No.		Panes Description and size and design
> Price
>
> 1-3		3 Basement Doors 18-5/8x78-7/8 RECT
>   229
> 4-9		6 Basement Panels 19-1/4x47-1/4 RECT		  460
> 10,11		2 Library Panels 19-1/4x35-1/4 DIAM w/ medallions
>   785
> 12,13		2 Front Entry Panels 15-1/4x47-1/4 DIAM
>   235
> 14,19		2 DR Transoms 11-1/4x29-1/4 RECT
>   120
> 15,20		2 DR Windows 11-1/4x67-1/4 RECT			  150
> 16		3 DR Transoms 17-1/4x29-1/4 RECT
>   120
> 17,18		3 DR Windows 17-1/4x67-1/4 RECT w/ medallions	1230
> 21		3 Kitchen Transoms 19-1/4x19-1/4 DIAM		    98
> 22,23		3 Kitchen Windows 19-1/4x35-1/4 DIAM
>   179
> 24		1 Bathroom Window 19-1/4x29-1/4 DIAM		    49
> 25,26		2 Garage Windows 19-1/4x47-1/4 DIAM
>   138
> 27,28		2 Garage Windows 19-1/4x41-1/4 DIAM
>   158
> 29		2 Laundry Transoms 23-1/4x11-1/4 RECT		  120
> 30,31		2 Laundry Windows 23-1/4x29-1/4 RECT		  140
> 32,35,38	6 Eating Area Transoms 23-1/4x11-1/4 RECT
>   132
> 33,34,36,37
>   39,40		6 Eating Area Windows 23-1/4x47-1/4 RECT
> 	  475
> 41		1 Hearth Room Door 24-5/8x78-7/8 RECT		  109
> 42,44		5 Hearth Room Transoms 29-1/4x11-1/4 RECT
>   140
> 43,45		5 Hearth Room Windows 29-1/4x47-1/4 RECT
>   495
> 46,47		2 Den Room Windows 23-1/4x53-1/4 RECT		  170
> 48,49		6 Den Room Windows 19-1/4x29-1/4 RECT		  295
> 50		1 Den Bath Window 19-1/4x29-1/4 RECT, w/ medallion
>   350
> 51,54		2 Library Sidelights 19-1/4x67-1/4 RECT		  180
> 52,53		2 Library Doorlights 25-3/4x66-3/16 RECT, w/
> medallion	  860
> 55,56		2 Window Seat Windows 11-1/4x41-1/4 DIAM
>   190
> 57,58		3 Closet Windows 19-1/4x19-1/4 DIAM
>   150
> 59		1 Master Bath Toilet Window 19-1/4x19-1/4 DIAM	    49
> 60,61		6 M Bath Windows 23-1/4x35-1/4 DIAM
>   450
> 62,63		2 M BR Windows 19-1/4x29-1/4 DIAM, w/medallion	  885
> 64,65		2 M BR Doors 37-3/4x66-3/16 RECT
>   208
> 66,67		2 West Guest BR 23-1/4x53-1/4 RECT
>   118
> 68,69		2 South Guest BR 19-1/4x41-1/4 DIAM
>   158
> GOTHIC	1 Single arched window, gothic arch, w/tri-foils &
> pts	  785
> GOTHIC	3 arched windows, gothic arch
>   885
> 		3 Rectangle windows
>   650
> Total
> 11,995.00
> Sketch Deposit paid
> (    500.00)
> Balance
> 11,445.00
>
> Terms:  60% on approval of art; balance on delivery.  Please circle
> the options required, initial the circles, sign and date below, and
> return one signed copy with your deposit.  Please keep one copy for
> your records.
>
> _________________________________		_____________
> Accepted						Date
>
>
> Marcus Bales
>
> marcus at designerglass.com
> http://www.designerglass.com
>





From ccooley  Mon Dec  9 01:18:13 2002
From: ccooley (Crisman Cooley)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 22:18:13 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1142 - 8 msgs
In-Reply-To: <20021208203003.3A99110639@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <IFEJKAJEJBEOJGHBHOCHOELDCCAA.ccooley@overdomain.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> [mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu]On Behalf Of
> new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: Sunday, December 08, 2002 12:30 PM
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #1142 - 8 msgs
>
>
> Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to
> 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> 	http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
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>
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>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: Best of 2002 II (Bob Grumman)
>    2. Re: empathy & art (Bob Grumman)
>    3. Re: Best of 2002 II (Bob Grumman)
>    4. Re: RE: empathy & art (JforJames at aol.com)
>    5. Re: Best of 2002 II (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
>    6. Poems by others: Ann Lauterbach, "Missing Ages" (Halvard Johnson)
>    7. Poems by others: Ann Lauterbach, "Missing Ages" (Halvard Johnson)
>    8. Fairchild (David Graham)
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 1
> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
> Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 13:15:40 -0500
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
> > According to Bob Grumman:
> > >
> > > > David, I think, for what it's worth that the best book of
> poetry this
> past
> > > > year was Heather Fuller's DOVECOTE.
> > >
> > > Excuse my crankiness, but surely you mean "the best book of poetry
> published
> > > in 2002 that you've read?"  Or have you read all the poetry books that
> were
> > > published this year?
> > >
> > > --Bob G.
> >
> > Bob, no, I've actually read every book of poetry published in the last
> > year, also every book of fiction and non-fiction and every children's
> > book.  I guess you could say I'm a voracious reader - thousands and
> > thousands of books which I read and then sell on ebay (see my
> auctions!).
> > I also see every film, if they don't come to my neighborhhod I go to New
> > York, Paris, Hong Kong and New Dehli to find them.  And I watch every
> > television sit-com and every drama on HBO - every episode!  And
> oh, every
> > album put out on every label I'm sure to give a listen. And I've been to
> > every gallery inthe world to see every exhibit.   And I can say
> with great
> > confidence that Heather Fuller's DOVECOTE is the best piece of cultural
> > expression made public Between January 1 and December 8, 2002.
> >
> > -m.
>
> I congratulate you, Michael.  I think you should have told us all this
> before making your statement, though, so you wouldn't wrongly
> make us think
> you were the kind of nitwit who edits anthologies of mostly
> mediocre poetry
> and, on the basis of very little familiarity with what's out
> there, calls it
> the best poetry published in some year or another.  Sure, this
> won't bother
> the comfortable also mediocre who compose poetry and know what the editor
> rilly meant.  That's because even those mediocrities whose work failed to
> get in the anthology for that year can hope it will some other
> year.  But it
> needlessly lowers the morale of better poets.  A preference for accurate
> language over hype is no real burden and can make the world a nicer place
> for most of us.
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 2
> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy & art
> Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 13:45:27 -0500
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
> > > > Marcus Bales:
> > > > Well it seemed to me at the time that "empathy" was being used to
> > > > mean something like "create a pleasurable response, the
> greater, more
> > > > sustained, and more complicatingly ramifying the better".
> >
> > Bob Grumman:
> > > Probably so.
> >
> > Then it seems as if we agree --
>
> About how "empathy" was used.
>
> > except that you go on thereafter at
> > some length apparently seeking a disagreement.
>
> What I thought I was doing was clarifying more exactly my position.
>
> > Marcus Bales:
> > > >I don't
> > > > think anyone is really disagreeing here on more than terminology,
> > > > unless you're going to insist on "pleasurable" in the sense that it
> > > > has to be only hedonistically pleasurable.
> >
> > Bob Grumman:
> > > I would insist on pleasurable in the sense of causing pleasure.  But
> that's
> > > probably terminological, too, since I would argue that poems that some
> > > people would say do not provide that
> > > do.  A eulogy, say, that on the surface causes sorrow, ultimately--if
> > > successful as a poem--causes more pleasure than pain.  (A
> sense of loss
> > > overcome--in one way, by a triumphant translation into an artwork, and
> by
> > > the beauties of that artwork.)
> >
> > Well, this is like "poetry is as good as it prompts action" -- the
> > question remains, "how much action, what kind of action, how soon?"
>
> You've lost me.
>
> > and the like.  If an eulogy causes pain to the widow but pleasure to
> > the deceased fellow's enemies, do you count that a successful poem or
> > not?
>
> I consider it successful as a poem to the degree that it causes aesthetic
> pleasure to an aesthespient (my latest term for receiver of an
> artwork).  A
> eulogy, to be successful, would have to cause asethetic pleasure to its
> aesthespients.  That it may cause pain or pleasure to someone for
> non-aesthetic reasons does not count.
>
>
> > Bob Grumman:
> > > I'm not sure what "hedonistic" means, by the way.  It seems
> to me almost
> > > entirely a propagandism meaning "pleasure I don't approve of" the way
> > > "license" means "the liberty to do what I don't approve of."
> I go along
> > > with the idea that some pleasures are superior to others.  But a poem
> that
> > > successfully expresses any pleasure is, for me, a success.
> >
> > I meant "hedonistic pleasure" in the sense of "pleasure there is no
> > denying as pleasure", as, for example, eating when hungry, drinking
> > when thirsty, having sex when aroused, and the like: unequivocal
> > pleasures, as opposed to the equivocal pleasures of art.
>
> So you don't think there's the kind of need for art that there is
> for food?
>
>
> > Marcus Bales;
> > > > After all, what is empathy
> > > > but a sustained, great, and complicatingly ramifying response?
> >
> > Bob Grumman:
> > > One thing it can be is a short-lived, tiny, unramifying response.  One
> can
> > > empathize with a man who has lost a penny as well as with a man whose
> house
> > > has burned down.<<
> >
> > Context is all in this case; the widow who adds her mite to the
> > offering, and the man who loses his very last penny may be people
> > with whom we empathize, but not in an "short-lived, tiny, unramifying
> > response".  With an ordinary fellow who loses a penny we are not
> > likely to empathize, Bob -- or even sympathize -- unless it is a
> > penny worth a good deal more than a penny.
>
> Come on, Marcus.  I was obviously showing the difference between
> degrees of
> empathy.  A poem can express empathy for small things and therefore be
> small--but successful.
>
>
> > Bob Grumman:
> > > I don't see empathy as complicatingly ramifying, a phrase I am using
> > > (because I can't offhand think of a better one) to mean something that
> > > connects to many things beyond itself in space and time--for instance,
> in
> > > simple terms, a poem that becomes part of your outlook and response to
> life
> > > for life--which will probably include empathy but need not.<<
> >
> > It seems to me that one must indeed empathize in order to see the
> > connections beyond a thing into space and time.  It is precisely
> > those things, or events, or people, who guide us to see those
> > connections with which or with whom we empathize -- that's what
> > empathy *means*, it seems to me.  You seem to have some private
> > definition of "empathy" that makes the use of the word to mean "a
> > sustained, great, and complicatingly ramifying response" or
> > "something that connects to many things beyond itself in space and
> > time" anathema to you.
>
> Why "anathema?"  I use "empathy" as getting sympathetically
> inside another's
> mind or heart, more or less.  For me it is thus social, as opposed to
> aesthetic, and art's main function, for me, is aesthetic, not social.  I
> suppose you could use it to mean getting into an artwork, but not to any
> advantage that I can see.
> >
> > Bob Grumman:
> > > More than that I probably can't say because it would involve my going
> into
> > > the details of my theory of aesthetics, which is too involved
> for me to
> get
> > > into here, and which would bore just about everybody here if
> I did, and
> were
> > > coherent, which is unlikely.
> >
> > Ah -- the predictable "I know way more about this than I'm willing to
> > say" ploy from Bob Grumman!  How ... predictable.
>
> You're right, Marcus.  I should have said that I've once again
> bween pushed
> by a master-mind to the limits of my knowledge of this subject
> and therefore
> can't go on.
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 3
> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
> Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 13:47:56 -0500
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>
> > Has anyone seen my _Post-Avant_, out this year from Pavement Saw?
> >
> > http://www.pavementsaw.org/postavant.htm
> >
> > Dan Zimmerman
>
> I have it but haven't had time to do more than skim it (also true of just
> about every other book of any kind I've picked up this year).  I
> do remember
> liking the few poems in it I had a chance to read!
>
> --Bob G.
>
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 4
> From: JforJames at aol.com
> Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 14:35:55 EST
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: empathy & art
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
> In a message dated 12/7/02 5:29:43 PM Eastern Standard Time,
> ccooley at overdomain.com writes:
>
> > Readymades appear at first
> >  glance to be the death of art.  In fact, they can act as its
> revivification,
> >  by placing the responsibility for meaning creation in hands
> and the mind of
> >  the observer.  This is true in the case also of a poem that
> creates empathy
> >  in an observer.  The poem does not contain the meaning or the empathy;
> these
> >  exist, if at all, in the mind of the observer.  This is the
> "role of the
> >  reader", as Umberto Eco calls it.
> >
> >  I am very sorry (or perhaps excited at the opportunity
> present) that I have
> >  found nothing in my investigation of contemporary poetry that
> matches the
> >  power of the Readymades to destroy art so that art might
> continue to live.
> >  (I wonder if poetry has missed out its opportunity to embrace
> Dadaism.  And
> >  I am open to enlightenment.)
> >
> Crisman, the problem with Dada is that it's a dead-end. An endpoint. You
> can't transcend...you can only retreat back into realm of the meaningful.
> R. Mutt's "Font" was an important provocation...a testing of a
> limit. After
> the
> limit is reached, to process can't really be repeated with any of
> the original
> shock, elan or wit. In fact, what is left behind, the art itself, becomes
> something
> of a historical novelty...it's value being the in "the act" or "the
> statement."
> While the breadth and depth of art can only be extended, with
> great effort,
> from within.
> Finnegan
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 5
> From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
> Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 14:54:33 EST
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Best of 2002 II
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>
> --part1_a3.34306ec4.2b24fd79_boundary
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> B. H. Fairchild's new book, the strange title of which is well
> known to this
> group.
>
> --part1_a3.34306ec4.2b24fd79_boundary
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> <HTML><FONT FACE=arial,helvetica><FONT  SIZE=3 FAMILY="SERIF"
> FACE="Times New Roman" LANG="0">B. H. Fairchild's new book, the
> strange title of which is well known to this group.</FONT></HTML>
>
> --part1_a3.34306ec4.2b24fd79_boundary--
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 6
> From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
> To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 14:49:00 -0500
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Ann Lauterbach, "Missing Ages"
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>
> Missing Ages
>
> 1.
>
> At times dry weight shifts vicariously on mental limbs like music
> hurting remotely.
>
> At times, fathers die and die, but
> biography is a false persuasion.
>
> Inhaling the night I am stitched to you
> with incendiary sorrow.
>
> A party? In costume, you say, and
> invited to dwell in a sea of lords and ladies?
> Quit smoking? Weep?
> And those magnolias, are they
> part of the wall, or of the rushing river
> with its vestal gashes arriving on a whim of connective tissue, on air?
>
> In a foreign land we will learn some songs.
> They will last as long as the next gold rush.
>
> 2.
>
> 				This is my r?sum?. Hire me.
> I am from January, where the winds are severe.
> I am an immigrant from evening, hire me.
> My father was a sweeper of secrets, a silk merchant
> in Vienna, he had no boots, he had no lotion for his skin.
> Hire me. This handkerchief is woven from ninety percent.
> My daughters are in Mexico on a jaunt. They have not
> read of the insurrection, they
> do not get CNN. This is my black scarf. This is my painting of a jar.
> Hire me. This is a photo of my husband
> taken when he was a young man in jail.
> I still remember sex, I can tell you stories
> of such women you will invite me to your trial. The snow
> stinks of yellow. Someone in a corner says thank you repeatedly.
> Hire me. I am what you do not know and will not miss.
>
> 3.
>
> The rapacious sky is as a winged figure
> flaunting its rapture, a film
> of film whose beginning middle and end
> we will never see. Knowledge is form.
> Wait for me under the apple tree on the blue sand.
> A discordant glue travels into courage, and the cut
> speeds along the finger's edge. Weather
> confounds our dreams, we wake humid
> with what we forgot while those who stay late
> sleep in the margins, fools
> for fools' gossip. Millions are spent
> on regular episodes from that life.
> Starved monks subsume an awful
> delay, snowbound, iconoclastic, their
> amnesia intact. I was a gallant trooper
> thru the history of Nordic exploration,
> I sank heavy water.
> I wear the soiled increment
> as a shield; my eyes break day by day
> in sublime iteration: unbearable choice among peers.
> We speak in tongues, yes?
> All instances fill and empty as
> the suction of love plays that rule, coming to stay
> in the habits of an angel skinned by disbelief.
> He raises the issue to emblematic stature:
> nature loves a plague as much as a rose.
>
> 4.
>
> The mutant veracity of almost.
> The steep incline of a heart.
> The dotted line of convention.
> The little afterlife of hazard.
> What spills from the mouth of the passionate dog.
> The voice of reason, its ineptitude with layers.
> The amulets of thieves; grief as such.
> The occasion purloined.
> A brother's best scarf.
> A brother's gray scarf.
> Between best and gray, an analogy.
> Icon of an ordinary okay.
> Between nine and fine.
> The makeshift bed.
> The national interest.
>
> 5.
>
> Which from among these absences will you choose?
> When the French girl arrives, no one will answer the phone for a week.
> If I were invited to sleep over, I would bring
> my dowsing rod, over which
> you could say your prayers, but if we
> touch the beautiful soul it will
> never stop raining.
> One by one, we are announced, and our
> names are a weightless carriage.
> Hire me. I live on the stairs. I go up and down.
>
> --Ann Lauterbach
>
> fr. *If in Time: Selected Poems: 1975-2000*
> [