From trbell at comcast.net  Thu Aug  1 00:36:25 2002
From: trbell at comcast.net (trbell at comcast.net)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 23:36:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Zan re painting/poetry collaborations
References: <sd453210.061@gw.ipfw.edu> <3D45C1B0.2CBF52EB@earthlink.net>
 <003501c23775$d4d70d80$52864cca@JROSS2> <3D46A764.1FDCCBD1@earthlink.net>
 <005701c238bb$30aed840$67864cca@JROSS2> <3D487816.BABFDEAA@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <153201c23914$ff59ce80$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com>

_The Third Hand (U. of minn, 2001) is a gfood read on this and _Word and
Image_ )Van Zon, 1991, Studies in European Thought - probabably only
available from University Libraries) is about Doppelgangers, -artists who
combine both verbal and pictoral in one person.

tom bell

----- Original Message -----
From: "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 6:51 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Zan re painting/poetry collaborations


> Interesting.  Verbal tonalities to color tonalities (smooth sticks
> aside) to musical tonalities, then back to verbal tonalities.  It has
> the ring of a Romantic or Victorian exercise and, as I write that, a
> faint bell goes off.  Something to do with Werther?
>
> Some years back, the Scottsdale Center for the Arts was commissioning
> poets to write poems after/on/inspired by works in current exhibitions.
> I was one of several poets asked to do that.  The end note to the poem
> says: "On a Sam Francis painting, "Untitled," 1985 (30X30), "Plate 11";
> poem commissioned by Scottsdale Center for the Arts, May 15, 1996."
> When I looked at the poem again, I couldn't visualize the painting!
>
> - Jim
>
> ganesha wrote:
> >
> > Off hand I can think of two.  1)  There was a true collaboration between
the
> > rather well-known Aussie poet, John Kinsella and immigrant artist,Carl
> > Wiebca, where Wiebca played off the tonality of the poetry of Kinsella,
> > relating it to colour and medium.  Interestingly, Wiebca did this one
piece
> > of work which was a series of six' dowel rods variously painted with
> > stunning, seemingly random colours down the length of each rod.  There
was a
> > printed card next to the exhibit instructing the viewer to imagine each
dab
> > of colour as music. In my head I carried the exercise one step further
and
> > went one step further, changing music into words.  This was one of the
most
> > moving experiences I've had with an individual piece of art.  2) An
artist I
> > know (another German immigrant), Herman Issac, worked with a poet who
gave
> > him pieces, and he reacted to each one with a collographic print.  When
the
> > exhibit was hung, the poem was placed to the left of each piece, so as
to be
> > read first.  Herman also had a printed reaction to the poem placed to
the
> > right of each print.
> >
> > I'll try to write out a few more when I have more time.
> >
> > Zan
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
> > To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 10:49 PM
> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Jane Hammond: The John Ashbery Collaboration
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > ganesha wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Yeah, I have seen paintings done after a poem.  Of course, they were
> > > > Australian.  Does that count with you?
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Of course.  Tell us about it.
> > >
> > > - Jim
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From adead_poet at hotmail.com  Thu Aug  1 04:43:15 2002
From: adead_poet at hotmail.com (jason huff)
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 03:43:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject)
Message-ID: <F1460clDF7JfUiSToYX0000788d@hotmail.com>

http://www.newyorker.com/shouts/content/?020722sh_shouts

has everyone seen this yet? this guy cracks me up.

jason



_________________________________________________________________
Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com



From lcrespi at yahoo.com  Thu Aug  1 07:23:40 2002
From: lcrespi at yahoo.com (Linda Crespi)
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 04:23:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] August Snakeskin
Message-ID: <20020801112340.74595.qmail@web13902.mail.yahoo.com>

This is a good issue. Not only some wow poems (Look at
Dave Tidyman's Lulu poems!) but square limericks and a
tough review of the new-style Poetry Review by my old
friend and lover Wayne Carvosso. I thought he'd
disappeared from the land of the living, the swine.

Linda 

=====
The Crespi Page is at:
http://snakeskin.org.uk/crespi.htm
New work appears usually in Snakeskin Webzine: 
http://snakeskin.org.uk

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com


From lcrespi at yahoo.com  Thu Aug  1 07:26:32 2002
From: lcrespi at yahoo.com (Linda Crespi)
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 04:26:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] August Snakeskin
Message-ID: <20020801112632.74870.qmail@web13902.mail.yahoo.com>

Dammit, the link at the bottom of my last mail was
wrong. This one should be OK.

=====
The Crespi Page is at: http://snakeskin.org.uk/crespi.htm New work appears usually in Snakeskin Webzine: http://www.snakeskin.org.uk

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better
http://health.yahoo.com


From thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com  Thu Aug  1 07:33:43 2002
From: thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com (bob cooper)
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 2002 11:33:43 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Donaghy
Message-ID: <F118bLYluLCTaogxLDp000003c8@hotmail.com>

Not just Donaghy! They're all good (ie fantastic) poets! (& one's US and 
one's Austrailian). But it's that they're good! If this is highlighting a 
problem then that's part of "the problem!"
Bob
Oh yes... and the first few words... "the small but perfectly formed world 
of British poetry..." is so far from the truth! Things are a mess...

>From: Chryss Yost <chryss at silcom.com>
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Donaghy
>Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 10:36:16 -0700
>
>That said, Michael Donaghy is a fantastic poet. If you're not familiar with
>his work, check it out. . .
>
> > From: "ganesha" <ganesha at dezzanet.net.au>
> > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 01:30:49 +0800
> > To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Zan re incestuous dealings
> >
> > Oh, hey -- we get a lot of the same sort of incestuous dealings in 
>Australia
> > ... and although the greater number of poets are femmes, it's still
> > primarily considered to be a boys' genre ... when poetry gets any
> > consideration at all, that is.  sigh.
> >
> > Zan
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <JforJames at aol.com>
> > To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 9:24 PM
> > Subject: [New-Poetry] The Fix Is In
> >
> >
> >> from the 'Books and Bookmen' column of _Private Eye_ July 26, 2002
> >>
> >> POETS CORNERED
> >>
> >> The small but perfectly formed world of modern British poetry looks
> >> even smaller following the announcement of the shortlist for the
> >> Forward Prize, Britain's biggest poetry award.
> >>
> >> This year's judges include two poets published by Picador (Sean
> >> O'Brien and Michael Donaghy), who have shortlisted two other Picador
> >> poets (Peter Porter and Paul Farley) for the =A310,000 top prize.  Last
> >> year's judging panel also included two Picador poets--Donaghy (again)
> >> and Peter Porter.
> >>
> >> Last year Porter gave the main prize to Sean O'Brien.  What's the
> >> betting O'Brien won't now give it back to his mentor, enabling both
> >> friends to pocket ten grand?  Or will their proteg=E9 Paul Farley be
> >> the one to take the loot this time around?
> >>
> >> Last year the =A35,000 prize for "best first collection" went to
> >> another Picador poet, John Stammers (a product of Donaghy's poetry
> >> workshops), and the =A31,000 "best single poem" prize was given to Ian
> >> Duhig for a poem--you guessed it--from his forthcoming Picador
> >> collection.  The same poem earlier won Duhig the =A35,000 top prize in
> >> the Poetry Society's national poetry competition, judged by a
> >> three-man panel including his mate Don Paterson, the foul-mouthed
> >> Scottish bard who also happens to be the poetry editor at, er,
> >> Picador.
> >>
> >> This year's five-poet Forward shortlist includes two other chums,
> >> David Harsent and John Fuller (winner of the Forward prize in 1996,
> >> when one of the judges was again Sean O'Brien).  And Sean O'Brien was
> >> one of three judges of the 1997 T. S. Eliot prize (worth =A35,000),
> >> which was awarded to. . . his own editor, Don Paterson.
> >>
> >> Duhig, Donaghy, O'Brien, Harsent and Paterson all have the same
> >> agent, TriplePa, aka Gerry Wardle--who just happens to be Sean
> >> O'Brien's partner.  And Donaghy, Duhig, Farley, Fuller, Harsent,
> >> Paterson and Porter have all received fulsome write-ups from the
> >> _Sunday Times's_ main poetry critic, one Sean O'Brien.
> >>
> >> Those outside the charmed circle may wonder if there are any poets
> >> worth honouring who don't happen to be Picador authors, friends of
> >> O'Brien or clients of his missus.  (Are there, for example, some
> >> meritorious women?  Apparently not, to judge by the omission of Alice
> >> Oswald, Carol Ann Duffy, Helen Dunmore and Selima Hill from the
> >> Forward list.)  Until the Forward organizers desist from asking
> >> O'Brazen and his cronies to judge their prize, we may never know.
> >>
> >> "Bookworm"
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New-Poetry mailing list
> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




_________________________________________________________________
Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com



From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Aug  1 10:08:40 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 10:08:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] PWLGC website
In-Reply-To: <3D40BFE6.F278A5BD@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3D4908A8.24533.7BD76F@localhost>

http://www.pwlgc.com


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com



From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu Aug  1 17:19:03 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 17:19:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jane Hammond: The John Ashbery Collaboration
In-Reply-To: <3D45C1B0.2CBF52EB@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEHKFFAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

  
{    Poems written "after" or on paintings is old news.  Have you ever seen a
{    painting done "after" or on a poem?  

Almost any ol' museo has plenty of paintings of heroic
figures and scenes out of poems, from Longfellow on
back to the ancients.

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Fri Aug  2 00:45:59 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 12:45:59 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Zan to Tome re painting/poetry collaborations
References: <sd453210.061@gw.ipfw.edu> <3D45C1B0.2CBF52EB@earthlink.net><003501c23775$d4d70d80$52864cca@JROSS2> <3D46A764.1FDCCBD1@earthlink.net><005701c238bb$30aed840$67864cca@JROSS2> <3D487816.BABFDEAA@earthlink.net> <153201c23914$ff59ce80$6401a8c0@ruthfd1tn.home.com>
Message-ID: <000b01c239df$82d543a0$55864cca@JROSS2>

Yeah -- there's been a movement going for years ... in fact, think it might
have started back with Stein and that lot ... in America and Australia
called "Concrete Poetry."  Then there's good old Collage and Montage --
another movement almost more than a century old now.  Of course these days
they call it "Mixed Media" -- all the rage here in Australia.  One art
movement I read about is based on genetic codes.  I reckon one could use
this in poetry if one was so inclined, eh?

Anyway, Tom, thanks for source material.

Zan
----- Original Message -----
From: <trbell at comcast.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 12:36 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Zan re painting/poetry collaborations


> _The Third Hand (U. of minn, 2001) is a gfood read on this and _Word and
> Image_ )Van Zon, 1991, Studies in European Thought - probabably only
> available from University Libraries) is about Doppelgangers, -artists who
> combine both verbal and pictoral in one person.
>
> tom bell
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 31, 2002 6:51 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Zan re painting/poetry collaborations
>
>
> > Interesting.  Verbal tonalities to color tonalities (smooth sticks
> > aside) to musical tonalities, then back to verbal tonalities.  It has
> > the ring of a Romantic or Victorian exercise and, as I write that, a
> > faint bell goes off.  Something to do with Werther?
> >
> > Some years back, the Scottsdale Center for the Arts was commissioning
> > poets to write poems after/on/inspired by works in current exhibitions.
> > I was one of several poets asked to do that.  The end note to the poem
> > says: "On a Sam Francis painting, "Untitled," 1985 (30X30), "Plate 11";
> > poem commissioned by Scottsdale Center for the Arts, May 15, 1996."
> > When I looked at the poem again, I couldn't visualize the painting!
> >
> > - Jim
> >
> > ganesha wrote:
> > >
> > > Off hand I can think of two.  1)  There was a true collaboration
between
> the
> > > rather well-known Aussie poet, John Kinsella and immigrant artist,Carl
> > > Wiebca, where Wiebca played off the tonality of the poetry of
Kinsella,
> > > relating it to colour and medium.  Interestingly, Wiebca did this one
> piece
> > > of work which was a series of six' dowel rods variously painted with
> > > stunning, seemingly random colours down the length of each rod.  There
> was a
> > > printed card next to the exhibit instructing the viewer to imagine
each
> dab
> > > of colour as music. In my head I carried the exercise one step further
> and
> > > went one step further, changing music into words.  This was one of the
> most
> > > moving experiences I've had with an individual piece of art.  2) An
> artist I
> > > know (another German immigrant), Herman Issac, worked with a poet who
> gave
> > > him pieces, and he reacted to each one with a collographic print.
When
> the
> > > exhibit was hung, the poem was placed to the left of each piece, so as
> to be
> > > read first.  Herman also had a printed reaction to the poem placed to
> the
> > > right of each print.
> > >
> > > I'll try to write out a few more when I have more time.
> > >
> > > Zan
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
> > > To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 10:49 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Jane Hammond: The John Ashbery Collaboration
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ganesha wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Yeah, I have seen paintings done after a poem.  Of course, they
were
> > > > > Australian.  Does that count with you?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Of course.  Tell us about it.
> > > >
> > > > - Jim
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Fri Aug  2 01:08:31 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 13:08:31 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Donaghy
References: <F118bLYluLCTaogxLDp000003c8@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <008b01c239e2$a75a72b0$55864cca@JROSS2>

Well personally, I think Peter Porter sucks the big one ... often ... and in
many pretentious positions ... and then passes the proceeds on to his mates
... who are few ...

Zan

----- Original Message -----
From: "bob cooper" <thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Donaghy


Not just Donaghy! They're all good (ie fantastic) poets! (& one's US and
one's Austrailian). But it's that they're good! If this is highlighting a
problem then that's part of "the problem!"
Bob
Oh yes... and the first few words... "the small but perfectly formed world
of British poetry..." is so far from the truth! Things are a mess...

>From: Chryss Yost <chryss at silcom.com>
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Donaghy
>Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 10:36:16 -0700
>
>That said, Michael Donaghy is a fantastic poet. If you're not familiar with
>his work, check it out. . .
>
> > From: "ganesha" <ganesha at dezzanet.net.au>
> > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 01:30:49 +0800
> > To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Zan re incestuous dealings
> >
> > Oh, hey -- we get a lot of the same sort of incestuous dealings in
>Australia
> > ... and although the greater number of poets are femmes, it's still
> > primarily considered to be a boys' genre ... when poetry gets any
> > consideration at all, that is.  sigh.
> >
> > Zan
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <JforJames at aol.com>
> > To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 9:24 PM
> > Subject: [New-Poetry] The Fix Is In
> >
> >
> >> from the 'Books and Bookmen' column of _Private Eye_ July 26, 2002
> >>
> >> POETS CORNERED
> >>
> >> The small but perfectly formed world of modern British poetry looks
> >> even smaller following the announcement of the shortlist for the
> >> Forward Prize, Britain's biggest poetry award.
> >>
> >> This year's judges include two poets published by Picador (Sean
> >> O'Brien and Michael Donaghy), who have shortlisted two other Picador
> >> poets (Peter Porter and Paul Farley) for the =A310,000 top prize.  Last
> >> year's judging panel also included two Picador poets--Donaghy (again)
> >> and Peter Porter.
> >>
> >> Last year Porter gave the main prize to Sean O'Brien.  What's the
> >> betting O'Brien won't now give it back to his mentor, enabling both
> >> friends to pocket ten grand?  Or will their proteg=E9 Paul Farley be
> >> the one to take the loot this time around?
> >>
> >> Last year the =A35,000 prize for "best first collection" went to
> >> another Picador poet, John Stammers (a product of Donaghy's poetry
> >> workshops), and the =A31,000 "best single poem" prize was given to Ian
> >> Duhig for a poem--you guessed it--from his forthcoming Picador
> >> collection.  The same poem earlier won Duhig the =A35,000 top prize in
> >> the Poetry Society's national poetry competition, judged by a
> >> three-man panel including his mate Don Paterson, the foul-mouthed
> >> Scottish bard who also happens to be the poetry editor at, er,
> >> Picador.
> >>
> >> This year's five-poet Forward shortlist includes two other chums,
> >> David Harsent and John Fuller (winner of the Forward prize in 1996,
> >> when one of the judges was again Sean O'Brien).  And Sean O'Brien was
> >> one of three judges of the 1997 T. S. Eliot prize (worth =A35,000),
> >> which was awarded to. . . his own editor, Don Paterson.
> >>
> >> Duhig, Donaghy, O'Brien, Harsent and Paterson all have the same
> >> agent, TriplePa, aka Gerry Wardle--who just happens to be Sean
> >> O'Brien's partner.  And Donaghy, Duhig, Farley, Fuller, Harsent,
> >> Paterson and Porter have all received fulsome write-ups from the
> >> _Sunday Times's_ main poetry critic, one Sean O'Brien.
> >>
> >> Those outside the charmed circle may wonder if there are any poets
> >> worth honouring who don't happen to be Picador authors, friends of
> >> O'Brien or clients of his missus.  (Are there, for example, some
> >> meritorious women?  Apparently not, to judge by the omission of Alice
> >> Oswald, Carol Ann Duffy, Helen Dunmore and Selima Hill from the
> >> Forward list.)  Until the Forward organizers desist from asking
> >> O'Brazen and his cronies to judge their prize, we may never know.
> >>
> >> "Bookworm"
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New-Poetry mailing list
> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




_________________________________________________________________
Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
http://www.hotmail.com

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com  Fri Aug  2 08:11:59 2002
From: thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com (bob cooper)
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2002 12:11:59 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Donaghy
Message-ID: <F139WkmRjNhHmdGOApC0000367b@hotmail.com>

Well, Zan,
I guess that's taste...
Maybe Peter Porter's big-dosh was for his long service then? That's what's 
happened with a few big prizes in the past few years as well.
And, for years, he was almost all a lot in the UK knew about poetry from 
down under...
(& then came Les Murray, & then came John Kinsella, & everything began to 
blossom...).
Part of the problem in the UK is - and has been for a while - getting hold 
of good/interesting books, which includes reading good reviews/getting to 
know about them in the first place... At least, with this web thing, it's 
possible to discover that poetry's not just what the UK bookshelves have to 
offer, that there's many more malts than are stocked in the local 
supermarket.
Bob


>From: "ganesha" <ganesha at dezzanet.net.au>
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Donaghy
>Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 13:08:31 +0800
>
>Well personally, I think Peter Porter sucks the big one ... often ... and 
>in
>many pretentious positions ... and then passes the proceeds on to his mates
>... who are few ...
>
>Zan
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "bob cooper" <thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:33 PM
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Donaghy
>
>
>Not just Donaghy! They're all good (ie fantastic) poets! (& one's US and
>one's Austrailian). But it's that they're good! If this is highlighting a
>problem then that's part of "the problem!"
>Bob
>Oh yes... and the first few words... "the small but perfectly formed world
>of British poetry..." is so far from the truth! Things are a mess...
>
> >From: Chryss Yost <chryss at silcom.com>
> >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Donaghy
> >Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 10:36:16 -0700
> >
> >That said, Michael Donaghy is a fantastic poet. If you're not familiar 
>with
> >his work, check it out. . .
> >
> > > From: "ganesha" <ganesha at dezzanet.net.au>
> > > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 01:30:49 +0800
> > > To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Zan re incestuous dealings
> > >
> > > Oh, hey -- we get a lot of the same sort of incestuous dealings in
> >Australia
> > > ... and although the greater number of poets are femmes, it's still
> > > primarily considered to be a boys' genre ... when poetry gets any
> > > consideration at all, that is.  sigh.
> > >
> > > Zan
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: <JforJames at aol.com>
> > > To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 9:24 PM
> > > Subject: [New-Poetry] The Fix Is In
> > >
> > >
> > >> from the 'Books and Bookmen' column of _Private Eye_ July 26, 2002
> > >>
> > >> POETS CORNERED
> > >>
> > >> The small but perfectly formed world of modern British poetry looks
> > >> even smaller following the announcement of the shortlist for the
> > >> Forward Prize, Britain's biggest poetry award.
> > >>
> > >> This year's judges include two poets published by Picador (Sean
> > >> O'Brien and Michael Donaghy), who have shortlisted two other Picador
> > >> poets (Peter Porter and Paul Farley) for the =A310,000 top prize.  
>Last
> > >> year's judging panel also included two Picador poets--Donaghy (again)
> > >> and Peter Porter.
> > >>
> > >> Last year Porter gave the main prize to Sean O'Brien.  What's the
> > >> betting O'Brien won't now give it back to his mentor, enabling both
> > >> friends to pocket ten grand?  Or will their proteg=E9 Paul Farley be
> > >> the one to take the loot this time around?
> > >>
> > >> Last year the =A35,000 prize for "best first collection" went to
> > >> another Picador poet, John Stammers (a product of Donaghy's poetry
> > >> workshops), and the =A31,000 "best single poem" prize was given to 
>Ian
> > >> Duhig for a poem--you guessed it--from his forthcoming Picador
> > >> collection.  The same poem earlier won Duhig the =A35,000 top prize 
>in
> > >> the Poetry Society's national poetry competition, judged by a
> > >> three-man panel including his mate Don Paterson, the foul-mouthed
> > >> Scottish bard who also happens to be the poetry editor at, er,
> > >> Picador.
> > >>
> > >> This year's five-poet Forward shortlist includes two other chums,
> > >> David Harsent and John Fuller (winner of the Forward prize in 1996,
> > >> when one of the judges was again Sean O'Brien).  And Sean O'Brien was
> > >> one of three judges of the 1997 T. S. Eliot prize (worth =A35,000),
> > >> which was awarded to. . . his own editor, Don Paterson.
> > >>
> > >> Duhig, Donaghy, O'Brien, Harsent and Paterson all have the same
> > >> agent, TriplePa, aka Gerry Wardle--who just happens to be Sean
> > >> O'Brien's partner.  And Donaghy, Duhig, Farley, Fuller, Harsent,
> > >> Paterson and Porter have all received fulsome write-ups from the
> > >> _Sunday Times's_ main poetry critic, one Sean O'Brien.
> > >>
> > >> Those outside the charmed circle may wonder if there are any poets
> > >> worth honouring who don't happen to be Picador authors, friends of
> > >> O'Brien or clients of his missus.  (Are there, for example, some
> > >> meritorious women?  Apparently not, to judge by the omission of Alice
> > >> Oswald, Carol Ann Duffy, Helen Dunmore and Selima Hill from the
> > >> Forward list.)  Until the Forward organizers desist from asking
> > >> O'Brazen and his cronies to judge their prize, we may never know.
> > >>
> > >> "Bookworm"
> > >> _______________________________________________
> > >> New-Poetry mailing list
> > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
>http://www.hotmail.com
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry






_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Sun Aug  4 03:36:26 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 15:36:26 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Zan re Porter and others
References: <F139WkmRjNhHmdGOApC0000367b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <001901c23b89$a8a7c200$61864cca@JROSS2>

True enough about malts, but I happen to think Les Murray is absolute crap
(obvious, trite, lazy, pontificating), as well ... and a bully on the
Australian lit. scene.  John Kinsella is uneven, doesn't edit his work,
thinks every word he utters/writes is 'sacred,' chucks internet and literary
hissies if you dare contradict him (especially regarding his own work),
kisses arse of anyone who can further his career (openly and to most of our
utter shame) and has appointed himself arbiter of Australian poetry.
Blossom?  I don't think so!

I don't know what the scene is like in the UK, but it's largely still an
incestuous (and very conservative) boys' game when it comes to funding and
publishing here ... when anyone takes any notice of poets at all.  Still, we
keep fighting the good fight, and us 'little farty people' (as Ben Elton
says) support each other when and where we can.

Zan
----- Original Message -----
From: "bob cooper" <thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 8:11 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Donaghy


> Well, Zan,
> I guess that's taste...
> Maybe Peter Porter's big-dosh was for his long service then? That's what's
> happened with a few big prizes in the past few years as well.
> And, for years, he was almost all a lot in the UK knew about poetry from
> down under...
> (& then came Les Murray, & then came John Kinsella, & everything began to
> blossom...).
> Part of the problem in the UK is - and has been for a while - getting hold
> of good/interesting books, which includes reading good reviews/getting to
> know about them in the first place... At least, with this web thing, it's
> possible to discover that poetry's not just what the UK bookshelves have
to
> offer, that there's many more malts than are stocked in the local
> supermarket.
> Bob
>
>
> >From: "ganesha" <ganesha at dezzanet.net.au>
> >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Donaghy
> >Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 13:08:31 +0800
> >
> >Well personally, I think Peter Porter sucks the big one ... often ... and
> >in
> >many pretentious positions ... and then passes the proceeds on to his
mates
> >... who are few ...
> >
> >Zan
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "bob cooper" <thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com>
> >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:33 PM
> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Donaghy
> >
> >
> >Not just Donaghy! They're all good (ie fantastic) poets! (& one's US and
> >one's Austrailian). But it's that they're good! If this is highlighting a
> >problem then that's part of "the problem!"
> >Bob
> >Oh yes... and the first few words... "the small but perfectly formed
world
> >of British poetry..." is so far from the truth! Things are a mess...
> >
> > >From: Chryss Yost <chryss at silcom.com>
> > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Donaghy
> > >Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 10:36:16 -0700
> > >
> > >That said, Michael Donaghy is a fantastic poet. If you're not familiar
> >with
> > >his work, check it out. . .
> > >
> > > > From: "ganesha" <ganesha at dezzanet.net.au>
> > > > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > > Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 01:30:49 +0800
> > > > To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Zan re incestuous dealings
> > > >
> > > > Oh, hey -- we get a lot of the same sort of incestuous dealings in
> > >Australia
> > > > ... and although the greater number of poets are femmes, it's still
> > > > primarily considered to be a boys' genre ... when poetry gets any
> > > > consideration at all, that is.  sigh.
> > > >
> > > > Zan
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: <JforJames at aol.com>
> > > > To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 9:24 PM
> > > > Subject: [New-Poetry] The Fix Is In
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> from the 'Books and Bookmen' column of _Private Eye_ July 26, 2002
> > > >>
> > > >> POETS CORNERED
> > > >>
> > > >> The small but perfectly formed world of modern British poetry looks
> > > >> even smaller following the announcement of the shortlist for the
> > > >> Forward Prize, Britain's biggest poetry award.
> > > >>
> > > >> This year's judges include two poets published by Picador (Sean
> > > >> O'Brien and Michael Donaghy), who have shortlisted two other
Picador
> > > >> poets (Peter Porter and Paul Farley) for the =A310,000 top prize.
> >Last
> > > >> year's judging panel also included two Picador poets--Donaghy
(again)
> > > >> and Peter Porter.
> > > >>
> > > >> Last year Porter gave the main prize to Sean O'Brien.  What's the
> > > >> betting O'Brien won't now give it back to his mentor, enabling both
> > > >> friends to pocket ten grand?  Or will their proteg=E9 Paul Farley
be
> > > >> the one to take the loot this time around?
> > > >>
> > > >> Last year the =A35,000 prize for "best first collection" went to
> > > >> another Picador poet, John Stammers (a product of Donaghy's poetry
> > > >> workshops), and the =A31,000 "best single poem" prize was given to
> >Ian
> > > >> Duhig for a poem--you guessed it--from his forthcoming Picador
> > > >> collection.  The same poem earlier won Duhig the =A35,000 top prize
> >in
> > > >> the Poetry Society's national poetry competition, judged by a
> > > >> three-man panel including his mate Don Paterson, the foul-mouthed
> > > >> Scottish bard who also happens to be the poetry editor at, er,
> > > >> Picador.
> > > >>
> > > >> This year's five-poet Forward shortlist includes two other chums,
> > > >> David Harsent and John Fuller (winner of the Forward prize in 1996,
> > > >> when one of the judges was again Sean O'Brien).  And Sean O'Brien
was
> > > >> one of three judges of the 1997 T. S. Eliot prize (worth =A35,000),
> > > >> which was awarded to. . . his own editor, Don Paterson.
> > > >>
> > > >> Duhig, Donaghy, O'Brien, Harsent and Paterson all have the same
> > > >> agent, TriplePa, aka Gerry Wardle--who just happens to be Sean
> > > >> O'Brien's partner.  And Donaghy, Duhig, Farley, Fuller, Harsent,
> > > >> Paterson and Porter have all received fulsome write-ups from the
> > > >> _Sunday Times's_ main poetry critic, one Sean O'Brien.
> > > >>
> > > >> Those outside the charmed circle may wonder if there are any poets
> > > >> worth honouring who don't happen to be Picador authors, friends of
> > > >> O'Brien or clients of his missus.  (Are there, for example, some
> > > >> meritorious women?  Apparently not, to judge by the omission of
Alice
> > > >> Oswald, Carol Ann Duffy, Helen Dunmore and Selima Hill from the
> > > >> Forward list.)  Until the Forward organizers desist from asking
> > > >> O'Brazen and his cronies to judge their prize, we may never know.
> > > >>
> > > >> "Bookworm"
> > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > >> New-Poetry mailing list
> > > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > > >
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >New-Poetry mailing list
> > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> >http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Aug  4 11:28:09 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 11:28:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Gunnar Ekelof, fr. "The Harem at Erechtheion"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEKGFFAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

from "The Harem at Erechtheion"

You who had seemed too familiar to yourself
Came to a city where the noises on all sides
Made you a stranger to yourself
Your life worth nothing
Begin from the beginning
When you have nothing to begin with
Except the End
Which you wished were different--

The streams of words without
Like the streams of blood within
A ground-swell of estrangement
Now I know
That everything is as it is everywhere:
The same feeling of discomfort
At conditions that grow even harder
The rewards for your services each day less
In the end completely inadequate
In this market our numbers increase steadily
Soon we shall be too many
Unable to carry on with so few customers
And only he will be welcome to the mystery
Who seeks it within himself.

Gunnar Ekelof, from "The Tale of Fatumeh" (1966)
in *Selected Poems,* (1971)--trans. W. H. Auden
and Leif Sjoberg

Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon Aug  5 08:58:02 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 08:58:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] FW: Jail term for posting poetry on the Web
Message-ID: <000301c23c7f$bba8a4e0$2c2af7a5@computer>

And some folks say poetry makes nothing happen.

Hal            "language--the Riviera of consciousness"
                                 --Bob Perelman

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard

-----Original Message-----
From: UB Poetics discussion group
[mailto:POETICS at LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU]On Behalf Of Ron
Sent: Monday, August 05, 2002 8:13 AM
To: POETICS at LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU
Subject: Jail term for posting poetry on the Web


Father's Poem, Son's Conviction
By Sergey Kuznetsov

2:00 a.m. Aug. 5, 2002 PDT

from Wired

Shohdy Naguib Surur will soon find out whether he has to pay for the
alleged sins of his father.

Shohdy, 40, was sentenced in June to one year in a Cairo jail for
posting his father's poem on the Internet but has so far avoided
incarceration as he awaits an appeal on Aug. 26.

Shohdy is the first person charged for online publishing of a poem. If
he loses the appeal, he will be Egypt's first Web prisoner of
conscience.

He was born in Moscow to a Russian mother and a famous Egyptian poet,
Naguib Surur. Shohdy, 40, is one of Russia's online pioneers and one of
the founders of the first Russian online magazine, Zhurnal.ru.

A few years ago he moved to Egypt and began to work as a webmaster for
the influential Egyptian English-language newspaper Al-Ahram. In Egypt,
he wrote articles for Al-Ahram and Russian periodicals.

Shohdy had been an Internet activist in Russia and he continued his
political activity in Egypt, so it wasn't a surprise when he became the
first to translate "A Declaration of the Independence of Cyberspace," by
John Perry Barlow, into Arabic.

After posting his father's poem -- a bitter reflection on the state of
Egyptian society and culture after Egypt was defeated in the 1967 war
against Israel -- Shohdy was arrested in November 2001. In the poem,
Naguib Surur condemned Egyptian government and politics, using explicit
sexual imagery and colloquial street Arabic. Even the poem's name, in
fact, is graphic.

The poem was never published in Egypt but has been disseminated there
through underground tapes of Naguib Surur's readings. Three years ago,
the poem was posted on the U.S.-hosted website managed by Shohdy
("wadada" means love in Sanskrit). Soon after his arrest, the poem was
removed from the site.

Since no law regulates Internet publishing in Egypt, Shohdy is charged
with possessing "immoral booklets and prints." Egyptian officials are
trying to present the case as a pornography violation, but there is no
doubt that the case is politically motivated.

"The site was blacklisted on Islamic sites and proxied off by the
'traditionalists' of the Arabian Peninsula," Shohdy said. "I hate to
think of facing the dogma institutions and their ardent supporters in
the courtroom. They lack a sense of humor in their exercise of righteous
judgment, while the poem is fire and brimstone of a sort, but with
humor."

Even though Shohdy was one of the site's administrators, the prosecutors
have not presented evidence that Shohdy was the actual publisher of the
poem.

After Shohdy's arrest, a few international human rights support groups,
such as Index on Censorship, spoke in his defense. Since Shohdy is
well-known in the Russian Internet community, many Russian newspapers
published articles in his support.

"It's not just (an) Egyptian case," the Russian Internet activist Nastik
Gryzunova said. "This disgusting case of breaking the free expression
rights illustrates the Internet censorship problem. Plus it brings up
the issue of the international laws and the Internet, because the server
where the poem is published is the hosted in the U.S.

"These problems are topical not just for Russia or Egypt, and we hope
the international Internet community will support Shohdy Naguib."

"In the most Islamic countries," Shohdy says, "I wouldn't even have a
chance to appeal. However, I don't believe (I will be let go)."



From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Aug  5 19:12:20 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 2002 19:12:20 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Contemporary Poetry Review Newsletter
Message-ID: <83.1ea8e719.2a806054@aol.com>

Contemporary Poetry Review Newsletter
A Journal Devoted Exclusively to the Criticism of Poetry?
(www.cprw.com)

AUGUST 2002
New Reviews
Garrick Davis interviews William Logan on the role of the poet-critic.?

J. K. Halligan looks at the last poems of George Starbuck (1931-1996).

James Rother examines W. H. Auden's vision of Modernism in the latest chapter 
from his new book, Anthology Culture.

Ravi Shankar reviews award-winning first collections from three American 
poets.?

All reviews and articles can be found at: www.cprw.com

Coming Soon?
J. S. Renau considers W. D. Snodgrass and the Fuhrer Bunker cycle.

Sonny Williams reviews the first book of Jenny Factor.

Garrick Davis interviews the poet-critic Adam Kirsch.

John Erhardt interviews the poet Timothy Liu. 

Paul Lake examines the selected poems of R. S. Gwynn.

Advertising
If you are interested in advertising with the Contemporary Poetry Review, 
rate and schedule information can be found here.?
Thank you,
Garrick Davis, editor
Contemporary Poetry Review



From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Aug  6 08:33:49 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 08:33:49 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] PWLGC class schedule
In-Reply-To: <000b01c239df$82d543a0$55864cca@JROSS2>
Message-ID: <3D4F89ED.3440.484CE6@localhost>

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/clevelandpoetics/files/licenter.doc

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue Aug  6 11:01:28 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 11:01:28 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Langston Hughes--short lines
Message-ID: <16e.11a92def.2a813ec8@cs.com>

Does anyone know the source of this famous anecdote about Langston Hughes?  
Asked why he cut the lines of his blues poems in half to form six-line 
instead of three-line stanzas, he said, "Because you *get* twice as much."
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue Aug  6 11:07:56 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 11:07:56 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Langston Hughes--short lines
Message-ID: <1ac.64d4808.2a81404c@cs.com>

http://www.milforded.org/schools/foran/turtola/bluesessay.html
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From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Tue Aug  6 21:45:02 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 2002 18:45:02 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] another poem as criticism: "The Value of Explaining"
Message-ID: <3D507B9D.1E503728@earthlink.net>

The Value of Explaining


Does the flower have a nose?
Yes, because . . .  No, because . . .
Possibly, if you consider . . .

Likewise, I witness this day in anno 2002
flesh made word
in explaining how the so-called "corpse-flower"
acquired its smell
perhaps thinking *I want those bugs that swarm to flesh
hence I will smell like yon rotting corpse.*

Does the flower have a brain?

Once I grabbed a squash, dead soft,
whose rottenness had not yet risen to the surface
but was most definitely a bag of putrid ooze.

Or, take trees, for example: 
Every leaf is an individual leaf that looks like, but is not quite
the leaf next to it;  branches branch
and we apply that to hapless families conceived on a whim.
Trees live for themselves. 
It's just happenstance that they provide shade for us.

*So what* of a bicycle ride you never took?
Your write of it as if:
You took it and it revealed
The difference between boys and girls.
You didn't take it and years later
*See you later, alligator.*

- Jim

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"The fundamental delusion of humanity is to suppose
that I am here and you are out there." - Yasutani Roshi
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes:  jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html
_____________________________________________________


From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu  Wed Aug  7 00:47:08 2002
From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith)
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 23:47:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] another poem as criticism: "The Value of
 Explaining"
In-Reply-To: <3D507B9D.1E503728@earthlink.net>
References: <3D507B9D.1E503728@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <a05100305b97655c12ccb@[165.190.124.251]>

Somebody just sent me the poem this poem seems to be sniping at.  I 
thought the poem was pretty good...and I found it to be about 
risk...fear...danger that makes things much more complicated than 
finding out the "difference between boys and girls" (as if there is 
*one*, or as if it's as simple as that...especially given the stanza 
imagining rape in the poem; maybe the "difference" is that women have 
always had to consider that as a possible outcome of being 
adventurous...but, hey, let's just talk about flowers and leaves).
ellen
-- 


From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu  Wed Aug  7 00:57:36 2002
From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith)
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 23:57:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] another poem as criticism: "The Value of
 Explaining"
In-Reply-To: <3D507B9D.1E503728@earthlink.net>
References: <3D507B9D.1E503728@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <a05100306b976577292a5@[165.190.124.251]>

By the way, here's the poem.  "The Value of Explaining" doesn't seem 
to be very useful as criticism, especially as it dismisses the sexual 
politics of the poem in a reductive and completely unaware manner. 
The poem itself could easily do without the...how could I know I'd be 
cleaning the kitchen thinking of this business...instead it could 
return to the metonymic vinyl mentioned earlier in the poem and see 
what happens.  In all, I think the ending is weak, but I think the 
poem-as-criticism is not what it claims to be.  the only "criticism" 
is the arbitrary sniping at the end.  The things going on prior to 
the moment where the reader (if a friend had sent her the poem in 
question on the same day the so-called critical poem appeared) says, 
"oh, he's sniping at that poem Jane sent me,"...those things that 
happen before seem to be trying to do something...they should perhaps 
keep trying and forget about the bike ride poem.  Then perhaps a more 
productive and honorable critical gesture might result.

ellen s.

At 6:22 PM -0400 8/6/02, Jane McCreery wrote:
>Bike Ride with Older Boys
>
>The one I didn't go on.
>
>I was thirteen,
>and they were older.
>I'd met them at the public pool. I must
>
>have given them my number. I'm sure
>
>I'd given them my number,
>knowing the girl I was. . .
>
>It was summer. My afternoons
>were made of time and vinyl.
>My mother worked,
>but I had a bike. They wanted
>
>to go for a ride.
>Just me and them. I said
>okay fine, I'd
>meet them at the Stop-n-Go
>at four o'clock.
>And then I didn't show.
>
>I have been given a little gift -
>something sweet
>and inexpensive, something
>I never worked or asked or said
>thank you for, most
>days not aware
>of what I have been given, or what I missed -
>
>because it's that, too, isn't it?
>I never saw those boys again.
>I'm not as dumb
>as they think I am
>
>but neither am I wise. Perhaps
>
>it is the best
>afternoon of my life. Two
>cute and older boys
>pedaling beside me - respectful, awed. When we
>
>turn down my street, the other girls see me . . .
>
>Everything as I imagined it would be.
>
>Or, I am in a vacant field. When I
>stand up again, there are bits of glass and gravel
>ground into my knees.
>I will never love myself again.
>Who knew then
>that someday I would be
>
>thirty-seven, wiping
>crumbs off the kitchen table with a sponge, remembering
>them, thinking
>of this -
>
>those boys still waiting
>outside the Stop-n-Go, smoking
>cigarettes, growing older.
>
>-- Laura Kasischke
>
>

-- 
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From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Wed Aug  7 08:57:42 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 05:57:42 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] another poem as criticism: "The Value ofExplaining"
References: <3D507B9D.1E503728@earthlink.net> <a05100306b976577292a5@[165.190.124.251]>
Message-ID: <3D511946.EC4F3BA1@earthlink.net>

Dear Ellen Smith:  It was not the Kasischke poem I had in mind, nor any
*particular* poem, in fact.  Now that you bring it up, I *had* read "Bike
Ride with Older Boys" yesterday, though my poem was written before that.
It's sheer coincidence that there were two details in common: a
bicycle, and boys and girls, though those two details must come up
frequently in poems that have similar scenarios.  If one applies my poem
specifically to Kasischke's poem, then I would have to agree with you.

- Jim

ellen smith wrote:
> 
> By the way, here's the poem.  "The Value of Explaining" doesn't seem
> to be very useful as criticism, especially as it dismisses the sexual
> politics of the poem in a reductive and completely unaware manner.
> The poem itself could easily do without the...how could I know I'd be
> cleaning the kitchen thinking of this business...instead it could
> return to the metonymic vinyl mentioned earlier in the poem and see
> what happens.  In all, I think the ending is weak, but I think the
> poem-as-criticism is not what it claims to be.  the only "criticism"
> is the arbitrary sniping at the end.  The things going on prior to the
> moment where the reader (if a friend had sent her the poem in question
> on the same day the so-called critical poem appeared) says, "oh, he's
> sniping at that poem Jane sent me,"...those things that happen before
> seem to be trying to do something...they should perhaps keep trying
> and forget about the bike ride poem.  Then perhaps a more productive
> and honorable critical gesture might result.
> 
> ellen s.
> 
> At 6:22 PM -0400 8/6/02, Jane McCreery wrote:
> 
> > Bike Ride with Older Boys
> >
> > The one I didn't go on.
> >
> > I was thirteen,
> > and they were older.
> > I'd met them at the public pool. I must
> >
> > have given them my number. I'm sure
> >
> > I'd given them my number,
> > knowing the girl I was. . .
> >
> > It was summer. My afternoons
> > were made of time and vinyl.
> > My mother worked,
> > but I had a bike. They wanted
> >
> > to go for a ride.
> > Just me and them. I said
> 
> > okay fine, I'd
> > meet them at the Stop-n-Go
> > at four o'clock.
> > And then I didn't show.
> 
> >
> > I have been given a little gift -
> > something sweet
> > and inexpensive, something
> > I never worked or asked or said
> > thank you for, most
> > days not aware
> > of what I have been given, or what I missed -
> >
> > because it's that, too, isn't it?
> > I never saw those boys again.
> > I'm not as dumb
> > as they think I am
> >
> > but neither am I wise. Perhaps
> >
> > it is the best
> > afternoon of my life. Two
> > cute and older boys
> > pedaling beside me - respectful, awed. When we
> >
> > turn down my street, the other girls see me . . .
> >
> > Everything as I imagined it would be.
> >
> > Or, I am in a vacant field. When I
> > stand up again, there are bits of glass and gravel
> > ground into my knees.
> > I will never love myself again.
> > Who knew then
> > that someday I would be
> >
> > thirty-seven, wiping
> > crumbs off the kitchen table with a sponge, remembering
> > them, thinking
> > of this -
> >
> > those boys still waiting
> > outside the Stop-n-Go, smoking
> > cigarettes, growing older.
> >
> > -- Laura Kasischke
> 
> >
> 
> >
> 
> --


From thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com  Wed Aug  7 10:38:01 2002
From: thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com (bob cooper)
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 14:38:01 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Zan re Porter and others
Message-ID: <F215xYOMVK7CUKBnHrU0001d438@hotmail.com>

Must admit I've found, on the times I've met him, Les Murray a charmer, and 
polite, and kind...
But those 3 writers are the only 3 whose books seem to appear in the UK, the 
only 3 who who turn up here and read at venues.
And you write: >I don't know what the scene is like in the UK, but it's 
largely still an
>incestuous (and very conservative) boys' game when it comes to funding and
>publishing here ... when anyone takes any notice of poets at all.

Yeh, in the UK thing's ain't easy either. There was a depressing 
article/address by David Morley that explored where things are at and that 
was mentioned on this list a wee while ago. It's just so difficult for 
punters to know what's available. It's just so difficult to get the news 
around about new books. Publishers find it really hard to get by. Bookshops 
are no longer prepared to give poetry shelf space. It's really tough.
Bob



>From: "ganesha" <ganesha at dezzanet.net.au>
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Zan re Porter and others
>Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 15:36:26 +0800
>
>True enough about malts, but I happen to think Les Murray is absolute crap
>(obvious, trite, lazy, pontificating), as well ... and a bully on the
>Australian lit. scene.  John Kinsella is uneven, doesn't edit his work,
>thinks every word he utters/writes is 'sacred,' chucks internet and 
>literary
>hissies if you dare contradict him (especially regarding his own work),
>kisses arse of anyone who can further his career (openly and to most of our
>utter shame) and has appointed himself arbiter of Australian poetry.
>Blossom?  I don't think so!
>
>I don't know what the scene is like in the UK, but it's largely still an
>incestuous (and very conservative) boys' game when it comes to funding and
>publishing here ... when anyone takes any notice of poets at all.  Still, 
>we
>keep fighting the good fight, and us 'little farty people' (as Ben Elton
>says) support each other when and where we can.
>
>Zan
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "bob cooper" <thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 8:11 PM
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Donaghy
>
>
> > Well, Zan,
> > I guess that's taste...
> > Maybe Peter Porter's big-dosh was for his long service then? That's 
>what's
> > happened with a few big prizes in the past few years as well.
> > And, for years, he was almost all a lot in the UK knew about poetry from
> > down under...
> > (& then came Les Murray, & then came John Kinsella, & everything began 
>to
> > blossom...).
> > Part of the problem in the UK is - and has been for a while - getting 
>hold
> > of good/interesting books, which includes reading good reviews/getting 
>to
> > know about them in the first place... At least, with this web thing, 
>it's
> > possible to discover that poetry's not just what the UK bookshelves have
>to
> > offer, that there's many more malts than are stocked in the local
> > supermarket.
> > Bob
> >
> >
> > >From: "ganesha" <ganesha at dezzanet.net.au>
> > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Donaghy
> > >Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 13:08:31 +0800
> > >
> > >Well personally, I think Peter Porter sucks the big one ... often ... 
>and
> > >in
> > >many pretentious positions ... and then passes the proceeds on to his
>mates
> > >... who are few ...
> > >
> > >Zan
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "bob cooper" <thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com>
> > >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > >Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:33 PM
> > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Donaghy
> > >
> > >
> > >Not just Donaghy! They're all good (ie fantastic) poets! (& one's US 
>and
> > >one's Austrailian). But it's that they're good! If this is highlighting 
>a
> > >problem then that's part of "the problem!"
> > >Bob
> > >Oh yes... and the first few words... "the small but perfectly formed
>world
> > >of British poetry..." is so far from the truth! Things are a mess...
> > >
> > > >From: Chryss Yost <chryss at silcom.com>
> > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Donaghy
> > > >Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 10:36:16 -0700
> > > >
> > > >That said, Michael Donaghy is a fantastic poet. If you're not 
>familiar
> > >with
> > > >his work, check it out. . .
> > > >
> > > > > From: "ganesha" <ganesha at dezzanet.net.au>
> > > > > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > > > Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 01:30:49 +0800
> > > > > To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Zan re incestuous dealings
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh, hey -- we get a lot of the same sort of incestuous dealings in
> > > >Australia
> > > > > ... and although the greater number of poets are femmes, it's 
>still
> > > > > primarily considered to be a boys' genre ... when poetry gets any
> > > > > consideration at all, that is.  sigh.
> > > > >
> > > > > Zan
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: <JforJames at aol.com>
> > > > > To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 9:24 PM
> > > > > Subject: [New-Poetry] The Fix Is In
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> from the 'Books and Bookmen' column of _Private Eye_ July 26, 
>2002
> > > > >>
> > > > >> POETS CORNERED
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The small but perfectly formed world of modern British poetry 
>looks
> > > > >> even smaller following the announcement of the shortlist for the
> > > > >> Forward Prize, Britain's biggest poetry award.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> This year's judges include two poets published by Picador (Sean
> > > > >> O'Brien and Michael Donaghy), who have shortlisted two other
>Picador
> > > > >> poets (Peter Porter and Paul Farley) for the =A310,000 top prize.
> > >Last
> > > > >> year's judging panel also included two Picador poets--Donaghy
>(again)
> > > > >> and Peter Porter.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Last year Porter gave the main prize to Sean O'Brien.  What's the
> > > > >> betting O'Brien won't now give it back to his mentor, enabling 
>both
> > > > >> friends to pocket ten grand?  Or will their proteg=E9 Paul Farley
>be
> > > > >> the one to take the loot this time around?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Last year the =A35,000 prize for "best first collection" went to
> > > > >> another Picador poet, John Stammers (a product of Donaghy's 
>poetry
> > > > >> workshops), and the =A31,000 "best single poem" prize was given 
>to
> > >Ian
> > > > >> Duhig for a poem--you guessed it--from his forthcoming Picador
> > > > >> collection.  The same poem earlier won Duhig the =A35,000 top 
>prize
> > >in
> > > > >> the Poetry Society's national poetry competition, judged by a
> > > > >> three-man panel including his mate Don Paterson, the foul-mouthed
> > > > >> Scottish bard who also happens to be the poetry editor at, er,
> > > > >> Picador.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> This year's five-poet Forward shortlist includes two other chums,
> > > > >> David Harsent and John Fuller (winner of the Forward prize in 
>1996,
> > > > >> when one of the judges was again Sean O'Brien).  And Sean O'Brien
>was
> > > > >> one of three judges of the 1997 T. S. Eliot prize (worth 
>=A35,000),
> > > > >> which was awarded to. . . his own editor, Don Paterson.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Duhig, Donaghy, O'Brien, Harsent and Paterson all have the same
> > > > >> agent, TriplePa, aka Gerry Wardle--who just happens to be Sean
> > > > >> O'Brien's partner.  And Donaghy, Duhig, Farley, Fuller, Harsent,
> > > > >> Paterson and Porter have all received fulsome write-ups from the
> > > > >> _Sunday Times's_ main poetry critic, one Sean O'Brien.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Those outside the charmed circle may wonder if there are any 
>poets
> > > > >> worth honouring who don't happen to be Picador authors, friends 
>of
> > > > >> O'Brien or clients of his missus.  (Are there, for example, some
> > > > >> meritorious women?  Apparently not, to judge by the omission of
>Alice
> > > > >> Oswald, Carol Ann Duffy, Helen Dunmore and Selima Hill from the
> > > > >> Forward list.)  Until the Forward organizers desist from asking
> > > > >> O'Brazen and his cronies to judge their prize, we may never know.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> "Bookworm"
> > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > >> New-Poetry mailing list
> > > > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >New-Poetry mailing list
> > > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >_________________________________________________________________
> > >Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> > >http://www.hotmail.com
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >New-Poetry mailing list
> > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >New-Poetry mailing list
> > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry






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From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Aug  7 11:15:26 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 11:15:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Noriko Ibaragi, "When I was prettiest in my life"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIENNFFAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

When I was prettiest in my life,
the cities crumbled down,
and the blue sky appeared
in the most unexpected places.

When I was prettiest in my life,
a lot of people around me were killed,
in factories, in the sea, and on nameless islands.
I lost the chance to dress up like a girl should.

When I was prettiest in my life,
no men offered me thoughtful gifts.
They only knew how to salute in the military fashion.
They all went off to the front, leaving their beautiful eyes behind.

When I was prettiest in my life,
my head was empty,
my heart was obstinate,
and only my limbs had the bright color of chestnuts.

When I was prettiest in my life,
my country lost in a war.
"How could it be true?" I asked,
striding, with my sleeves rolled up, through the prideless town.

When I was prettiest in my life,
jazz music streamed from the radio.
Feeling dizzy, as if I'd broken a resolve to quit smoking,
I devoured the sweet music of a foreign land.

When I was prettiest in my life,
I was most unhappy,
I was most absurd,
I was helplessly lonely.

Therefore I decided to live a long time, if I could,
like old Rouault of France,
who painted magnificent pictures in his old age.

--Noriko Ibaragi 

(trans. ?)

Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu  Wed Aug  7 13:00:13 2002
From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith)
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 12:00:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] another poem as criticism: "The Value
 ofExplaining"
In-Reply-To: <3D511946.EC4F3BA1@earthlink.net>
References: <3D507B9D.1E503728@earthlink.net>
 <a05100306b976577292a5@[165.190.124.251]>
 <3D511946.EC4F3BA1@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <a05100301b9770257b6d6@[165.190.124.251]>

Thanks for explaining.
ellen s.

>Dear Ellen Smith:  It was not the Kasischke poem I had in mind, nor any
>*particular* poem, in fact.  Now that you bring it up, I *had* read "Bike
>Ride with Older Boys" yesterday, though my poem was written before that.
>It's sheer coincidence that there were two details in common: a
>bicycle, and boys and girls, though those two details must come up
>frequently in poems that have similar scenarios.  If one applies my poem
>specifically to Kasischke's poem, then I would have to agree with you.
>
>- Jim
>
>ellen smith wrote:
>>
>>  By the way, here's the poem.  "The Value of Explaining" doesn't seem
>>  to be very useful as criticism, especially as it dismisses the sexual
>>  politics of the poem in a reductive and completely unaware manner.
>>  The poem itself could easily do without the...how could I know I'd be
>>  cleaning the kitchen thinking of this business...instead it could
>>  return to the metonymic vinyl mentioned earlier in the poem and see
>>  what happens.  In all, I think the ending is weak, but I think the
>>  poem-as-criticism is not what it claims to be.  the only "criticism"
>>  is the arbitrary sniping at the end.  The things going on prior to the
>>  moment where the reader (if a friend had sent her the poem in question
>>  on the same day the so-called critical poem appeared) says, "oh, he's
>>  sniping at that poem Jane sent me,"...those things that happen before
>>  seem to be trying to do something...they should perhaps keep trying
>>  and forget about the bike ride poem.  Then perhaps a more productive
>>  and honorable critical gesture might result.
>>
>>  ellen s.
>>
>>  At 6:22 PM -0400 8/6/02, Jane McCreery wrote:
>>
>>  > Bike Ride with Older Boys
>>  >
>>  > The one I didn't go on.
>>  >
>>  > I was thirteen,
>>  > and they were older.
>>  > I'd met them at the public pool. I must
>>  >
>>  > have given them my number. I'm sure
>>  >
>>  > I'd given them my number,
>>  > knowing the girl I was. . .
>>  >
>>  > It was summer. My afternoons
>>  > were made of time and vinyl.
>>  > My mother worked,
>>  > but I had a bike. They wanted
>>  >
>>  > to go for a ride.
>>  > Just me and them. I said
>>
>>  > okay fine, I'd
>>  > meet them at the Stop-n-Go
>>  > at four o'clock.
>>  > And then I didn't show.
>>
>>  >
>>  > I have been given a little gift -
>>  > something sweet
>>  > and inexpensive, something
>>  > I never worked or asked or said
>>  > thank you for, most
>>  > days not aware
>>  > of what I have been given, or what I missed -
>>  >
>>  > because it's that, too, isn't it?
>>  > I never saw those boys again.
>>  > I'm not as dumb
>>  > as they think I am
>>  >
>>  > but neither am I wise. Perhaps
>>  >
>>  > it is the best
>>  > afternoon of my life. Two
>>  > cute and older boys
>>  > pedaling beside me - respectful, awed. When we
>>  >
>>  > turn down my street, the other girls see me . . .
>>  >
>>  > Everything as I imagined it would be.
>>  >
>>  > Or, I am in a vacant field. When I
>>  > stand up again, there are bits of glass and gravel
>>  > ground into my knees.
>>  > I will never love myself again.
>>  > Who knew then
>>  > that someday I would be
>>  >
>>  > thirty-seven, wiping
>>  > crumbs off the kitchen table with a sponge, remembering
>>  > them, thinking
>>  > of this -
>>  >
>>  > those boys still waiting
>>  > outside the Stop-n-Go, smoking
>>  > cigarettes, growing older.
>>  >
>>  > -- Laura Kasischke
>>
>>  >
>>
>>  >
>>
>>  --
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


-- 


From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Wed Aug  7 11:52:28 2002
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 10:52:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] FW: Charlotte Mew
Message-ID: <200208071551.g77FpPN84625@mx1.mx.voyager.net>


From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Wed Aug  7 12:28:44 2002
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 11:28:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Beach Reading
Message-ID: <200208071627.g77GRgZ01648@mx15.mx.voyager.net>

A column by Ken Tucker from the *Baltimore Sun* (on Poetry Daily) recommends
several poetry books to read at the beach--suggesting that poetry may be
just as diverting and fulfilling as the novels and other books usually
rounded up in such features.  Yes, he uses the dread word "accessible," but
then proceeds to recommend such non-lite fare as John Koethe's new &
selected poems.

Recently back from a long trip myself, I'm hoping to spin a thread on our
recent beach reads--whatever beaches we've been on, concrete or otherwise.

By my side during most of my travels was John Balaban's selected, *Locusts
at the Edge of Summer*, which I've touted before but can't seem to get
enough of.

A new book I enjoyed was Wilmer Mills's *Light for the Orphans*, from Story
Line.  Full of narratives and  dramatic monologues, as you might expect from
a Story Line title, it strikes me as a quiet but solid volume, consistently
readable and often more.  

I think Richard Wilbur's blurb gets it right, including the glancing
reference to Frost's second book:  "These poems of people have a fine
readable texture:  one pauses to take in their striking phrases and happy
accuracies; they move one as narrative should.   There is an emotional
density in Wilmer Mills' writing; there is pain and darkness in it; and
there is a continual relief and gaiety as the right words are found."

Here's a sample:

The Dowser's Ear


          Empty cattle trailers
          Rumbled dummy thunder
Down the road all day, and now tonight,
Heat lightning flashes more of the same fake rain.
It's just as well. I couldn't get to sleep,
And now it ricochets across the sky
With empty loads of light. We've had a month
Of drought that tightens dirt around my pond.
The local wells are dry. But I've retired,
Threw out my wand. I hate this time of year.

          Roux can burn if flour
          Sticks in skillet butter.
I've been cooking up a storm myself,
My Daddy's fil? gumbo recipe.
He used to be a chef on oil rigs
Until the hurricane. I heard the waves
That killed him, and I hear them every year.
It's emptiness that fills me. That's my skill.
I hear the vacant rain before it falls.
It's like the murmur of a spiraled shell.

          Hurricane weather, stewing
          Deep for landfall, spewing
Rain-a-plenty in the Gulf and here
In Tennessee they always have a lack
Of something. Two men called today for wells.
I told them both to go to hell, and now
They think I'm sinful, not to use my skill.
They stand to lose so much, but don't we all.
I lost a lot in Hurricane Camille
And even now can't hear the end of it.

          More heat lightning flashes,
          Absent rain that passes
Over clouds, and I can make it out,
Each gurgling current under withered fields,
Down kitchen drains. The neighbors think I'm crazy,
Up all hours, but they'll never know
The screaming voice inside a breaker's rage
Or how it simmers in my ear. I hate
The sound of water. Give me one good chance
To make it silent. I'd be right as rain.


       Wilmer Mills
       Light for the Orphans
       Story Line Press



========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================



From hruggier at localnet.com  Wed Aug  7 15:22:01 2002
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2002 15:22:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Noriko Ibaragi, "When I was prettiest 
 in my life"
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIENNFFAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3D517359.3B00E142@localnet.com>

Thanks for posting - one of my favorites.  The poem is in Like
Underground Water translated by Naoshi Koriyama and Edward Lueders -
published by Copper Canyon.  Well worth buying for a good sampling of
Japanese contemporary poetry.

H. Ruggieri

Halvard Johnson wrote:

> When I was prettiest in my life,
> the cities crumbled down,
> and the blue sky appeared
> in the most unexpected places.
>
> When I was prettiest in my life,
> a lot of people around me were killed,
> in factories, in the sea, and on nameless islands.
> I lost the chance to dress up like a girl should.
>
> When I was prettiest in my life,
> no men offered me thoughtful gifts.
> They only knew how to salute in the military fashion.
> They all went off to the front, leaving their beautiful eyes behind.
>
> When I was prettiest in my life,
> my head was empty,
> my heart was obstinate,
> and only my limbs had the bright color of chestnuts.
>
> When I was prettiest in my life,
> my country lost in a war.
> "How could it be true?" I asked,
> striding, with my sleeves rolled up, through the prideless town.
>
> When I was prettiest in my life,
> jazz music streamed from the radio.
> Feeling dizzy, as if I'd broken a resolve to quit smoking,
> I devoured the sweet music of a foreign land.
>
> When I was prettiest in my life,
> I was most unhappy,
> I was most absurd,
> I was helplessly lonely.
>
> Therefore I decided to live a long time, if I could,
> like old Rouault of France,
> who painted magnificent pictures in his old age.
>
> --Noriko Ibaragi
>
> (trans. ?)
>
> Hal
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Aug  7 15:06:25 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 15:06:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Noriko Ibaragi, "When I was prettiest in my life"
In-Reply-To: <3D517359.3B00E142@localnet.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEOFFFAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Thanks for the info, Helen. I got it from a website that didn't bother
with sources or translators. I'll keep an eye out for the collection.
And I think Ibaragi's one of the 20th C Japanese poets that Kenneth
Rexroth translated.

Hal

  
{    Thanks for posting - one of my favorites.  The poem is in Like
{    Underground Water translated by Naoshi Koriyama and Edward Lueders -
{    published by Copper Canyon.  Well worth buying for a good sampling of
{    Japanese contemporary poetry.
{    
{    H. Ruggieri
{    
{    Halvard Johnson wrote:
{    
{    > When I was prettiest in my life,
{    > the cities crumbled down,
{    > and the blue sky appeared
{    > in the most unexpected places.
{    >
{    > When I was prettiest in my life,
{    > a lot of people around me were killed,
{    > in factories, in the sea, and on nameless islands.
{    > I lost the chance to dress up like a girl should.
{    >
{    > When I was prettiest in my life,
{    > no men offered me thoughtful gifts.
{    > They only knew how to salute in the military fashion.
{    > They all went off to the front, leaving their beautiful eyes behind.
{    >
{    > When I was prettiest in my life,
{    > my head was empty,
{    > my heart was obstinate,
{    > and only my limbs had the bright color of chestnuts.
{    >
{    > When I was prettiest in my life,
{    > my country lost in a war.
{    > "How could it be true?" I asked,
{    > striding, with my sleeves rolled up, through the prideless town.
{    >
{    > When I was prettiest in my life,
{    > jazz music streamed from the radio.
{    > Feeling dizzy, as if I'd broken a resolve to quit smoking,
{    > I devoured the sweet music of a foreign land.
{    >
{    > When I was prettiest in my life,
{    > I was most unhappy,
{    > I was most absurd,
{    > I was helplessly lonely.
{    >
{    > Therefore I decided to live a long time, if I could,
{    > like old Rouault of France,
{    > who painted magnificent pictures in his old age.
{    >
{    > --Noriko Ibaragi
{    >
{    > (trans. ?)
{    >
{    > Hal
{    >
{    > Halvard Johnson
{    > ===============
{    > email: halvard at earthlink.net
{    > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
{    >
{    > _______________________________________________
{    > New-Poetry mailing list
{    > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    



From jpjones at ihug.com.au  Wed Aug  7 18:06:48 2002
From: jpjones at ihug.com.au (Jill Jones)
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 08:06:48 +1000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Noriko Ibaragi, "When I was
	prettiest  in my life"
In-Reply-To: <3D517359.3B00E142@localnet.com>
Message-ID: <B977D718.900E%jpjones@ihug.com.au>

There's another version of this poem in Other Side River from Stone Bridge
Press which is a volume of contemporary Japanese women's poetry in free
verse (a companion volume is A long Rainy Season, features contemporary
poetry traditional forms). I bought them here in Sydney so they must be
easily available over there.

Cheers,
Jill


8/8/02 5:22 AM, Helen Ruggieri at hruggier at localnet.com wrote:

> Thanks for posting - one of my favorites.  The poem is in Like
> Underground Water translated by Naoshi Koriyama and Edward Lueders -
> published by Copper Canyon.  Well worth buying for a good sampling of
> Japanese contemporary poetry.
> 
> H. Ruggieri
> 
> Halvard Johnson wrote:
> 
>> When I was prettiest in my life,
>> the cities crumbled down,
>> and the blue sky appeared
>> in the most unexpected places.
>> 
>> When I was prettiest in my life,
>> a lot of people around me were killed,
>> in factories, in the sea, and on nameless islands.
>> I lost the chance to dress up like a girl should.
>> 
>> When I was prettiest in my life,
>> no men offered me thoughtful gifts.
>> They only knew how to salute in the military fashion.
>> They all went off to the front, leaving their beautiful eyes behind.
>> 
>> When I was prettiest in my life,
>> my head was empty,
>> my heart was obstinate,
>> and only my limbs had the bright color of chestnuts.
>> 
>> When I was prettiest in my life,
>> my country lost in a war.
>> "How could it be true?" I asked,
>> striding, with my sleeves rolled up, through the prideless town.
>> 
>> When I was prettiest in my life,
>> jazz music streamed from the radio.
>> Feeling dizzy, as if I'd broken a resolve to quit smoking,
>> I devoured the sweet music of a foreign land.
>> 
>> When I was prettiest in my life,
>> I was most unhappy,
>> I was most absurd,
>> I was helplessly lonely.
>> 
>> Therefore I decided to live a long time, if I could,
>> like old Rouault of France,
>> who painted magnificent pictures in his old age.
>> 
>> --Noriko Ibaragi
>> 
>> (trans. ?)
>> 
>> Hal
>> 
>> Halvard Johnson
>> ===============
>> email: halvard at earthlink.net
>> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 

_________________________________
Jill Jones
50 Ruby Street
Marrickville NSW 2204
AUSTRALIA

jpjones at ihug.com.au
http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~jpjones





From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Aug  7 18:27:41 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 18:27:41 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Noriko Ibaragi, "When I wasprettiest  in my life"
In-Reply-To: <B977D718.900E%jpjones@ihug.com.au>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEOJFFAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

That's interesting, Jill. Are the two versions significantly different?

Hal         "is there enough silence here for a glass of water"
                                  --David Antin
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard

{    There's another version of this poem in Other Side River from Stone Bridge
{    Press which is a volume of contemporary Japanese women's poetry in free
{    verse (a companion volume is A long Rainy Season, features contemporary
{    poetry traditional forms). I bought them here in Sydney so they must be
{    easily available over there.
{    
{    Cheers,
{    Jill
{    
{    
{    8/8/02 5:22 AM, Helen Ruggieri at hruggier at localnet.com wrote:
{    
{    > Thanks for posting - one of my favorites.  The poem is in Like
{    > Underground Water translated by Naoshi Koriyama and Edward Lueders -
{    > published by Copper Canyon.  Well worth buying for a good sampling of
{    > Japanese contemporary poetry.
{    > 
{    > H. Ruggieri
{    > 
{    > Halvard Johnson wrote:
{    > 
{    >> When I was prettiest in my life,
{    >> the cities crumbled down,
{    >> and the blue sky appeared
{    >> in the most unexpected places.
{    >> 
{    >> When I was prettiest in my life,
{    >> a lot of people around me were killed,
{    >> in factories, in the sea, and on nameless islands.
{    >> I lost the chance to dress up like a girl should.
{    >> 
{    >> When I was prettiest in my life,
{    >> no men offered me thoughtful gifts.
{    >> They only knew how to salute in the military fashion.
{    >> They all went off to the front, leaving their beautiful eyes behind.
{    >> 
{    >> When I was prettiest in my life,
{    >> my head was empty,
{    >> my heart was obstinate,
{    >> and only my limbs had the bright color of chestnuts.
{    >> 
{    >> When I was prettiest in my life,
{    >> my country lost in a war.
{    >> "How could it be true?" I asked,
{    >> striding, with my sleeves rolled up, through the prideless town.
{    >> 
{    >> When I was prettiest in my life,
{    >> jazz music streamed from the radio.
{    >> Feeling dizzy, as if I'd broken a resolve to quit smoking,
{    >> I devoured the sweet music of a foreign land.
{    >> 
{    >> When I was prettiest in my life,
{    >> I was most unhappy,
{    >> I was most absurd,
{    >> I was helplessly lonely.
{    >> 
{    >> Therefore I decided to live a long time, if I could,
{    >> like old Rouault of France,
{    >> who painted magnificent pictures in his old age.
{    >> 
{    >> --Noriko Ibaragi
{    >> 
{    >> (trans. ?)
{    >> 
{    >> Hal
{    >> 
{    >> Halvard Johnson
{    >> ===============
{    >> email: halvard at earthlink.net
{    >> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
{    >> 
{    >> _______________________________________________
{    >> New-Poetry mailing list
{    >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    > 
{    > _______________________________________________
{    > New-Poetry mailing list
{    > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    > 
{    
{    _________________________________
{    Jill Jones
{    50 Ruby Street
{    Marrickville NSW 2204
{    AUSTRALIA
{    
{    jpjones at ihug.com.au
{    http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~jpjones
{    
{    
{    
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Wed Aug  7 20:32:30 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 08:32:30 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Zan to Ellen re "The Value ofExplaining"
References: <3D507B9D.1E503728@earthlink.net> <a05100305b97655c12ccb@[165.190.124.251]>
Message-ID: <001101c23e73$167c9620$7c864cca@JROSS2>

Oooo -- flowers, leaves ... landscapes ... the pastoral in its many
manifestations -- yeah, like that ... Let's all be as the Queen Mother used
to: everything is lovely, lovely ...

Zan

----- Original Message -----
From: "ellen smith" <smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] another poem as criticism: "The Value
ofExplaining"


> Somebody just sent me the poem this poem seems to be sniping at.  I
> thought the poem was pretty good...and I found it to be about
> risk...fear...danger that makes things much more complicated than
> finding out the "difference between boys and girls" (as if there is
> *one*, or as if it's as simple as that...especially given the stanza
> imagining rape in the poem; maybe the "difference" is that women have
> always had to consider that as a possible outcome of being
> adventurous...but, hey, let's just talk about flowers and leaves).
> ellen
> --
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Wed Aug  7 21:09:27 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 09:09:27 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Zan re Porter and others
References: <F215xYOMVK7CUKBnHrU0001d438@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <00f001c23e78$3ffae4c0$7c864cca@JROSS2>

We're largely considered "Colonials" down under ... still ... after hundreds
of years.  sigh.  What to do?

As to the aforementioned poets being the only ones whose books are available
in the UK, it ain't true; but then most poetry books from any country, even
one's own, aren't publicised or distributed widely, eh?

Those three visit the UK fairly regularly because they generally get funding
when the rest of us have to scrabble for rather meagre handouts.  (In fact,
Porter lives there, doesn't he?  Kinsella has on and off for at least four
years, I know.)

Such is life for most poets.  Why we persist in writing it, heaven only
knows ...

Zan
----- Original Message -----
From: "bob cooper" <thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 10:38 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Zan re Porter and others


Must admit I've found, on the times I've met him, Les Murray a charmer, and
polite, and kind...
But those 3 writers are the only 3 whose books seem to appear in the UK, the
only 3 who who turn up here and read at venues.
And you write: >I don't know what the scene is like in the UK, but it's
largely still an
>incestuous (and very conservative) boys' game when it comes to funding and
>publishing here ... when anyone takes any notice of poets at all.

Yeh, in the UK thing's ain't easy either. There was a depressing
article/address by David Morley that explored where things are at and that
was mentioned on this list a wee while ago. It's just so difficult for
punters to know what's available. It's just so difficult to get the news
around about new books. Publishers find it really hard to get by. Bookshops
are no longer prepared to give poetry shelf space. It's really tough.
Bob



>From: "ganesha" <ganesha at dezzanet.net.au>
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Zan re Porter and others
>Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 15:36:26 +0800
>
>True enough about malts, but I happen to think Les Murray is absolute crap
>(obvious, trite, lazy, pontificating), as well ... and a bully on the
>Australian lit. scene.  John Kinsella is uneven, doesn't edit his work,
>thinks every word he utters/writes is 'sacred,' chucks internet and
>literary
>hissies if you dare contradict him (especially regarding his own work),
>kisses arse of anyone who can further his career (openly and to most of our
>utter shame) and has appointed himself arbiter of Australian poetry.
>Blossom?  I don't think so!
>
>I don't know what the scene is like in the UK, but it's largely still an
>incestuous (and very conservative) boys' game when it comes to funding and
>publishing here ... when anyone takes any notice of poets at all.  Still,
>we
>keep fighting the good fight, and us 'little farty people' (as Ben Elton
>says) support each other when and where we can.
>
>Zan
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "bob cooper" <thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Sent: Friday, August 02, 2002 8:11 PM
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Donaghy
>
>
> > Well, Zan,
> > I guess that's taste...
> > Maybe Peter Porter's big-dosh was for his long service then? That's
>what's
> > happened with a few big prizes in the past few years as well.
> > And, for years, he was almost all a lot in the UK knew about poetry from
> > down under...
> > (& then came Les Murray, & then came John Kinsella, & everything began
>to
> > blossom...).
> > Part of the problem in the UK is - and has been for a while - getting
>hold
> > of good/interesting books, which includes reading good reviews/getting
>to
> > know about them in the first place... At least, with this web thing,
>it's
> > possible to discover that poetry's not just what the UK bookshelves have
>to
> > offer, that there's many more malts than are stocked in the local
> > supermarket.
> > Bob
> >
> >
> > >From: "ganesha" <ganesha at dezzanet.net.au>
> > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Donaghy
> > >Date: Fri, 2 Aug 2002 13:08:31 +0800
> > >
> > >Well personally, I think Peter Porter sucks the big one ... often ...
>and
> > >in
> > >many pretentious positions ... and then passes the proceeds on to his
>mates
> > >... who are few ...
> > >
> > >Zan
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "bob cooper" <thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com>
> > >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > >Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2002 7:33 PM
> > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Donaghy
> > >
> > >
> > >Not just Donaghy! They're all good (ie fantastic) poets! (& one's US
>and
> > >one's Austrailian). But it's that they're good! If this is highlighting
>a
> > >problem then that's part of "the problem!"
> > >Bob
> > >Oh yes... and the first few words... "the small but perfectly formed
>world
> > >of British poetry..." is so far from the truth! Things are a mess...
> > >
> > > >From: Chryss Yost <chryss at silcom.com>
> > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Donaghy
> > > >Date: Wed, 31 Jul 2002 10:36:16 -0700
> > > >
> > > >That said, Michael Donaghy is a fantastic poet. If you're not
>familiar
> > >with
> > > >his work, check it out. . .
> > > >
> > > > > From: "ganesha" <ganesha at dezzanet.net.au>
> > > > > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > > > Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2002 01:30:49 +0800
> > > > > To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Zan re incestuous dealings
> > > > >
> > > > > Oh, hey -- we get a lot of the same sort of incestuous dealings in
> > > >Australia
> > > > > ... and although the greater number of poets are femmes, it's
>still
> > > > > primarily considered to be a boys' genre ... when poetry gets any
> > > > > consideration at all, that is.  sigh.
> > > > >
> > > > > Zan
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: <JforJames at aol.com>
> > > > > To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 30, 2002 9:24 PM
> > > > > Subject: [New-Poetry] The Fix Is In
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >> from the 'Books and Bookmen' column of _Private Eye_ July 26,
>2002
> > > > >>
> > > > >> POETS CORNERED
> > > > >>
> > > > >> The small but perfectly formed world of modern British poetry
>looks
> > > > >> even smaller following the announcement of the shortlist for the
> > > > >> Forward Prize, Britain's biggest poetry award.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> This year's judges include two poets published by Picador (Sean
> > > > >> O'Brien and Michael Donaghy), who have shortlisted two other
>Picador
> > > > >> poets (Peter Porter and Paul Farley) for the =A310,000 top prize.
> > >Last
> > > > >> year's judging panel also included two Picador poets--Donaghy
>(again)
> > > > >> and Peter Porter.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Last year Porter gave the main prize to Sean O'Brien.  What's the
> > > > >> betting O'Brien won't now give it back to his mentor, enabling
>both
> > > > >> friends to pocket ten grand?  Or will their proteg=E9 Paul Farley
>be
> > > > >> the one to take the loot this time around?
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Last year the =A35,000 prize for "best first collection" went to
> > > > >> another Picador poet, John Stammers (a product of Donaghy's
>poetry
> > > > >> workshops), and the =A31,000 "best single poem" prize was given
>to
> > >Ian
> > > > >> Duhig for a poem--you guessed it--from his forthcoming Picador
> > > > >> collection.  The same poem earlier won Duhig the =A35,000 top
>prize
> > >in
> > > > >> the Poetry Society's national poetry competition, judged by a
> > > > >> three-man panel including his mate Don Paterson, the foul-mouthed
> > > > >> Scottish bard who also happens to be the poetry editor at, er,
> > > > >> Picador.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> This year's five-poet Forward shortlist includes two other chums,
> > > > >> David Harsent and John Fuller (winner of the Forward prize in
>1996,
> > > > >> when one of the judges was again Sean O'Brien).  And Sean O'Brien
>was
> > > > >> one of three judges of the 1997 T. S. Eliot prize (worth
>=A35,000),
> > > > >> which was awarded to. . . his own editor, Don Paterson.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Duhig, Donaghy, O'Brien, Harsent and Paterson all have the same
> > > > >> agent, TriplePa, aka Gerry Wardle--who just happens to be Sean
> > > > >> O'Brien's partner.  And Donaghy, Duhig, Farley, Fuller, Harsent,
> > > > >> Paterson and Porter have all received fulsome write-ups from the
> > > > >> _Sunday Times's_ main poetry critic, one Sean O'Brien.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Those outside the charmed circle may wonder if there are any
>poets
> > > > >> worth honouring who don't happen to be Picador authors, friends
>of
> > > > >> O'Brien or clients of his missus.  (Are there, for example, some
> > > > >> meritorious women?  Apparently not, to judge by the omission of
>Alice
> > > > >> Oswald, Carol Ann Duffy, Helen Dunmore and Selima Hill from the
> > > > >> Forward list.)  Until the Forward organizers desist from asking
> > > > >> O'Brazen and his cronies to judge their prize, we may never know.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> "Bookworm"
> > > > >> _______________________________________________
> > > > >> New-Poetry mailing list
> > > > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >New-Poetry mailing list
> > > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >_________________________________________________________________
> > >Join the world's largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
> > >http://www.hotmail.com
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >New-Poetry mailing list
> > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >New-Poetry mailing list
> > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry






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From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Aug  7 21:49:36 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2002 21:49:36 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Beach Reading
In-Reply-To: <200208071627.g77GRgZ01648@mx15.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEEONFFAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

   
{    Recently back from a long trip myself, I'm hoping to spin a thread on our
{    recent beach reads--whatever beaches we've been on, concrete or otherwise.

Okay, here's a mountain-and-forest read, from last week's sojourn
in the Catskills:

Borges' *Seven Nights* is a collection of seven lectures he gave in Buenos Aires
back in 1977, translated from Spanish to English by Eliot Weinberger. I read them
all (though not in order) over a day and a half or so. One lecture each on "The
Divine Comedy," "Nightmares," "The Thousand and One Nights," "Buddhism,"
"Poetry," "The Kabbalah," and "Blindness," and each one opening all sorts of
doors and windows. Recommended to anyone else who's behind. Intro. by
Alastair Reid.

Hal, still catching up

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
\



From jpjones at ihug.com.au  Thu Aug  8 08:50:41 2002
From: jpjones at ihug.com.au (Jill Jones)
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 22:50:41 +1000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Noriko Ibaragi, "When I
	wasprettiest  in my life"
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEOJFFAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B978A641.9023%jpjones@ihug.com.au>

on 8/8/02 8:27 AM, Halvard Johnson at halvard at earthlink.net wrote:

> That's interesting, Jill. Are the two versions significantly different?
> 
> Hal         "is there enough silence here for a glass of water"



Hi Hal,

This is the version in the book I mentioned. There are some clear
differences:


When I was at my most beautiful

When I was at my most beautiful
town after town came crashing down
I caught glimpses of the blue sky
from the most unexpected places.

When I was at my most beautiful
people were dying all around me
in factories, at sea, on islands without names
I lost my chance to make the best of myself.

When I was at my most beautiful
none of the young men brought me tender gifts
all they knew how to do was salute
and set out for war, leaving only their glances behind.

When I was at my most beautiful
my head was empty
my mind obstinate
but my arms and legs shone like chestnuts.

When I was at my most beautiful
my country lost the war
how could all that have happened?
I rolled up my up my sleeves and marched around my humiliated town.

When I was at my most beautiful
jazz flowed from the radio
I devoured the sweet exotic sounds
the way I smoked my first forbidden cigarettes.

When I was at my most beautiful
I was so very unhappy
I was so very awkward
and so horribly lonely.

So I decided I?d live a very long time
Like old man Rouault
who painted his most beautiful works in his old age
                                             if I could.


_________________________________
Jill Jones
50 Ruby Street
Marrickville NSW 2204
AUSTRALIA

jpjones at ihug.com.au
http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~jpjones





From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu  Thu Aug  8 15:38:41 2002
From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith)
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 14:38:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Zan to Ellen re "The Value ofExplaining"
In-Reply-To: <001101c23e73$167c9620$7c864cca@JROSS2>
References: <3D507B9D.1E503728@earthlink.net>
 <a05100305b97655c12ccb@[165.190.124.251]>
 <001101c23e73$167c9620$7c864cca@JROSS2>
Message-ID: <a05100300b9787894622a@[165.190.124.251]>

And don't forget, girls, the conventional paradigm allows our bodies 
to be part of the landscape, too, until we are too old to blend in 
and become crones.  No wonder women have risked their lives for years 
taking hormones.  Mares eat oats and does eat oats and menopausal 
girls drink horse piss...
ellen s.
-- 


From thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com  Thu Aug  8 20:01:43 2002
From: thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com (bob cooper)
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 2002 00:01:43 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Zan re Porter and others
Message-ID: <F495yT1eWb20N9X0Ffz00002b6f@hotmail.com>

Yeh Zan,
It might be true that only those 3's books are (occasionally) on the shelves 
and there's a lot more that's available (in theory)... But poetry is rarely 
reviewed, many publishers have had their stocks sat in their back bedrooms 
because the distribution system collapsed, and the big bookshops are 
downsizing their shelf space anyway.
Many smaller presses are having to rely on their own websites to advertise 
and then sell their wares... but that's slow to catch on.
But, hey, I'm feeling low today. I mean I live in a conurbation of almost 
half-a-million yet have a 2 hour round trip (altogether elsewhere) to hear 
poetry and a 6-hour-round-trip (in the opposite direction!) to browse over 
some poetry bookshelves that "may" include something interesting and new. 
That's expensive!
On bright days I know that poetry matters, that it's worth all the time and 
sometimes, sometimes, things happen. Filling in the forms to get the cash 
that's available's often harder than the writing you're hoping to do if 
you're successful.
And you moan about yourself as being seen as "colonial" whereas I moan 
because I'm seen as provincial! I guess it's time to uncork the malt...
again! (H'm, less Malt, more books? But which books, and where are they?)
Bob




>From: "ganesha" <ganesha at dezzanet.net.au>
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Zan re Porter and others
>Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 09:09:27 +0800
>
>We're largely considered "Colonials" down under ... still ... after 
>hundreds
>of years.  sigh.  What to do?
>
>As to the aforementioned poets being the only ones whose books are 
>available
>in the UK, it ain't true; but then most poetry books from any country, even
>one's own, aren't publicised or distributed widely, eh?
>
>Those three visit the UK fairly regularly because they generally get 
>funding
>when the rest of us have to scrabble for rather meagre handouts.  (In fact,
>Porter lives there, doesn't he?  Kinsella has on and off for at least four
>years, I know.)
>
>Such is life for most poets.  Why we persist in writing it, heaven only
>knows ...
>
>Zan
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "bob cooper" <thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 10:38 PM
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Zan re Porter and others
>
>
>Must admit I've found, on the times I've met him, Les Murray a charmer, and
>polite, and kind...
>But those 3 writers are the only 3 whose books seem to appear in the UK, 
>the
>only 3 who who turn up here and read at venues.
>And you write: >I don't know what the scene is like in the UK, but it's
>largely still an
> >incestuous (and very conservative) boys' game when it comes to funding 
>and
> >publishing here ... when anyone takes any notice of poets at all.
>
>Yeh, in the UK thing's ain't easy either. There was a depressing
>article/address by David Morley that explored where things are at and that
>was mentioned on this list a wee while ago. It's just so difficult for
>punters to know what's available. It's just so difficult to get the news
>around about new books. Publishers find it really hard to get by. Bookshops
>are no longer prepared to give poetry shelf space. It's really tough.
>Bob
>
>
>
> >From: "ganesha" <ganesha at dezzanet.net.au>
> >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Zan re Porter and others
> >Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 15:36:26 +0800
> >
> >True enough about malts, but I happen to think Les Murray is absolute 
>crap
> >(obvious, trite, lazy, pontificating), as well ... and a bully on the
> >Australian lit. scene.  John Kinsella is uneven, doesn't edit his work,
> >thinks every word he utters/writes is 'sacred,' chucks internet and
> >literary
> >hissies if you dare contradict him (especially regarding his own work),
> >kisses arse of anyone who can further his career (openly and to most of 
>our
> >utter shame) and has appointed himself arbiter of Australian poetry.
> >Blossom?  I don't think so!
> >
> >I don't know what the scene is like in the UK, but it's largely still an
> >incestuous (and very conservative) boys' game when it comes to funding 
>and
> >publishing here ... when anyone takes any notice of poets at all.  Still,
> >we
> >keep fighting the good fight, and us 'little farty people' (as Ben Elton
> >says) support each other when and where we can.
> >
> >Zan


_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com



From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Aug  8 23:01:26 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 23:01:26 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Anthony Piccione
Message-ID: <167.11fb3d5c.2a848a86@aol.com>

Night Train Through Inner Mongolia

Now the child is a runny-nosed stranger
you've finally decided to share your seat with,
and the whole thing keeps heaving into the dark.

The child sleeps unsweetly hunched against you,
your side is slowly stinging, he has wet himself,
so you do not move at all. I know you.

You sit awake, baffling about a quirky faith,
and do not shift until morning. This is why
you are blessed, I think, and usually chosen.


Anthony Piccione

---------------------------------
copyright (c) 2002 Anthony Piccione. From "The Guests at the Gate," published 
by BOA Editions Limited (http://www.boaeditions.org)


From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Fri Aug  9 03:03:49 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 15:03:49 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Zan to Ellen re HRT and menopause
References: <3D507B9D.1E503728@earthlink.net><a05100305b97655c12ccb@[165.190.124.251]><001101c23e73$167c9620$7c864cca@JROSS2> <a05100300b9787894622a@[165.190.124.251]>
Message-ID: <00c201c23f72$ec181ca0$44864cca@JROSS2>

Not me!!  I did without HRT -- didn't/don't reckon menopause is an
illness/disorder.  I see it as my hormones working to their own rhythm.  I
consider/ed menopause a right of passage.  And it was.  And after ten years
it was over, in its and my body's own time.  I haven't bled for four years,
and although I grieved this passing of one of the most fundamental markers
of womanhood, I have gained the right to be the authentic me, (mostly) free
of culture's expectations and the notions of loved ones.  And if men no
longer offer to help me with luggage; if I am frequently ignored in the deli
and in shops, passed over for someone younger; at least I am seldom
approached by sexually predatory persons, nor do I inspire jealousy in other
women.  But the best part of having passed through this physical borderline
is having won a great deal of emotional detachment from the dramas of my
early years as a femme.  It's not that I lack passion, these days, it's
simply that I can now choose what to be passionate about from a position of
greater perspective ...

At least that's been my experience and take on menopause ...
----- Original Message -----
From: "ellen smith" <smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 3:38 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Zan to Ellen re "The Value ofExplaining"


> And don't forget, girls, the conventional paradigm allows our bodies
> to be part of the landscape, too, until we are too old to blend in
> and become crones.  No wonder women have risked their lives for years
> taking hormones.  Mares eat oats and does eat oats and menopausal
> girls drink horse piss...
> ellen s.
> --
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Fri Aug  9 03:11:47 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 15:11:47 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Zan re Malt and provincials
References: <F495yT1eWb20N9X0Ffz00002b6f@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <00f401c23f74$08897ea0$44864cca@JROSS2>

Malt ... yes -- let's do this thing ... today if possible!  If I'm a
Colonial and you're a Provincial on the map of poetry, who else do you
suppose is being excluded ... besides poetry and poets as a whole?  ...
 Ah -- let's just forget about the entire thing and get pissed, maudlin and
read out our favourite material.

Yours in insobriety,

Zan
----- Original Message -----
From: "bob cooper" <thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, August 09, 2002 8:01 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Zan re Porter and others


> Yeh Zan,
> It might be true that only those 3's books are (occasionally) on the
shelves
> and there's a lot more that's available (in theory)... But poetry is
rarely
> reviewed, many publishers have had their stocks sat in their back bedrooms
> because the distribution system collapsed, and the big bookshops are
> downsizing their shelf space anyway.
> Many smaller presses are having to rely on their own websites to advertise
> and then sell their wares... but that's slow to catch on.
> But, hey, I'm feeling low today. I mean I live in a conurbation of almost
> half-a-million yet have a 2 hour round trip (altogether elsewhere) to hear
> poetry and a 6-hour-round-trip (in the opposite direction!) to browse over
> some poetry bookshelves that "may" include something interesting and new.
> That's expensive!
> On bright days I know that poetry matters, that it's worth all the time
and
> sometimes, sometimes, things happen. Filling in the forms to get the cash
> that's available's often harder than the writing you're hoping to do if
> you're successful.
> And you moan about yourself as being seen as "colonial" whereas I moan
> because I'm seen as provincial! I guess it's time to uncork the malt...
> again! (H'm, less Malt, more books? But which books, and where are they?)
> Bob
>
>
>
>
> >From: "ganesha" <ganesha at dezzanet.net.au>
> >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Zan re Porter and others
> >Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 09:09:27 +0800
> >
> >We're largely considered "Colonials" down under ... still ... after
> >hundreds
> >of years.  sigh.  What to do?
> >
> >As to the aforementioned poets being the only ones whose books are
> >available
> >in the UK, it ain't true; but then most poetry books from any country,
even
> >one's own, aren't publicised or distributed widely, eh?
> >
> >Those three visit the UK fairly regularly because they generally get
> >funding
> >when the rest of us have to scrabble for rather meagre handouts.  (In
fact,
> >Porter lives there, doesn't he?  Kinsella has on and off for at least
four
> >years, I know.)
> >
> >Such is life for most poets.  Why we persist in writing it, heaven only
> >knows ...
> >
> >Zan
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "bob cooper" <thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com>
> >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >Sent: Wednesday, August 07, 2002 10:38 PM
> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Zan re Porter and others
> >
> >
> >Must admit I've found, on the times I've met him, Les Murray a charmer,
and
> >polite, and kind...
> >But those 3 writers are the only 3 whose books seem to appear in the UK,
> >the
> >only 3 who who turn up here and read at venues.
> >And you write: >I don't know what the scene is like in the UK, but it's
> >largely still an
> > >incestuous (and very conservative) boys' game when it comes to funding
> >and
> > >publishing here ... when anyone takes any notice of poets at all.
> >
> >Yeh, in the UK thing's ain't easy either. There was a depressing
> >article/address by David Morley that explored where things are at and
that
> >was mentioned on this list a wee while ago. It's just so difficult for
> >punters to know what's available. It's just so difficult to get the news
> >around about new books. Publishers find it really hard to get by.
Bookshops
> >are no longer prepared to give poetry shelf space. It's really tough.
> >Bob
> >
> >
> >
> > >From: "ganesha" <ganesha at dezzanet.net.au>
> > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Zan re Porter and others
> > >Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 15:36:26 +0800
> > >
> > >True enough about malts, but I happen to think Les Murray is absolute
> >crap
> > >(obvious, trite, lazy, pontificating), as well ... and a bully on the
> > >Australian lit. scene.  John Kinsella is uneven, doesn't edit his work,
> > >thinks every word he utters/writes is 'sacred,' chucks internet and
> > >literary
> > >hissies if you dare contradict him (especially regarding his own work),
> > >kisses arse of anyone who can further his career (openly and to most of
> >our
> > >utter shame) and has appointed himself arbiter of Australian poetry.
> > >Blossom?  I don't think so!
> > >
> > >I don't know what the scene is like in the UK, but it's largely still
an
> > >incestuous (and very conservative) boys' game when it comes to funding
> >and
> > >publishing here ... when anyone takes any notice of poets at all.
Still,
> > >we
> > >keep fighting the good fight, and us 'little farty people' (as Ben
Elton
> > >says) support each other when and where we can.
> > >
> > >Zan
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From marcus at designerglass.com  Fri Aug  9 09:42:26 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 09:42:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] http://www.blah3.com/money.html
In-Reply-To: <3D40BFE6.F278A5BD@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3D538E83.32429.828922@localhost>

http://www.blah3.com/money.html

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com



From marcus at designerglass.com  Fri Aug  9 15:26:03 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2002 15:26:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Fix Is In
In-Reply-To: <31.2aa89c10.2a77ed9d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D53DF0B.21127.4B2AE0@localhost>

From: http://www.satirewire.com/news/jan02/scam.shtml

ENRON CHAIRMAN QUITS TO JOIN NIGERIAN 
FIRM
Asks For Your Confidential Assistances, Bank Accounts Numbers 
Lagos, Nigeria (SatireWire.com) ? Saying he had found a 
venue more worthy of his talents, Kenneth Lay resigned today as 
chairman of Enron to join a Nigerian government ministry which 
needs your confidential assistance in the transferring of offshore 
funds into a new company of Nigeria that will provide incredible 
profit on paper by the trading of energy. 
The new company will be called the Energy National Resource 
Organization of Nigeria (E.N.R.O.N.) 
According to Dr. Tunde Momoh, director of the Nigerian National 
Petroleum Ministry, which is coordinating the E.N.R.O.N. initiative, 
the addition of Lay to his staff has given a boost to all Nigerian 
government ministries, { HYPERLINK "http://www.glib.com/nigerian_scam.html" \t "blank" }which now earn most of their revenues by 
sending confidential letters to millions of people asking for their 
bank account numbers so that the ministry in question can transfer 
$US20 million to US$60 million from a secretive Ministry fund to 
the recipient for safekeeping. 
"We are thrilled to have now someone of Mr. Lay's experiences," 
said Momoh. "It is rare to find a non-Nigerian who is { HYPERLINK " http://biz.yahoo.com/rb/020118/business_enron_dc_1.html" \t "blank" }familiar with 
our methods and objectives, and his idea for the creating of the 
energy trading company E.N.R.O.N. is inspired." 
"When I am first hearing of it, I admit it has the sound of crazy," 
Momah added, "but (Lay) is telling us that based on his 
experiences, this could work for years." 
In fact, in an { HYPERLINK "http://www.satirewire.com/news/jan02/lay_scam.shtml" }email sent to undisclosed recipients by Lay, who now 
identifies himself as a "close advisor" to the Nigerian National 
Petroleum Ministry, he is interested to do business with you 
because of credible reports that you will recognize this opportunity 
of great wealth. All that is required, the letter stated, is your 
banking accounts number and your purchase of stock of this 
energy trading company that has no traceable losses or shell 
companies or indictable irregularities of any kind. 
Contacted at his confidential fax number, Lay said he was excited 
by the new job, and predicted he would adapt easily to Nigerian 
methods. "It's a new country and I've had to learn to muddle a bit 
my syntax, but the basic business approach is something we both 
have in common," he said. "I only wish I had started here first." 
Lay added that, as he did at Enron, where he served as both 
chairman and chief executive officer, the new job will enable him to 
take part in several Nigerian businesses, including stints as Dr. 
Chukwuma Mbaduwa, an accountant in the Nigerian Transport 
Ministry, Abu Idomu, a top official of the federal government 
contract review panel, and the Lady Maryam Abacha, wife of late 
Gen. Sani Abacha, ex-military head of state of Nigeria, whose 
assets have been frozen except for $50 million she stuffed in a box 
labeled as photographic materials which she deposited in a 
security company where her brother-in-law works as general 
manager and she now needs your assistance in retrieving these 
moneys. 


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com




From hruggier at localnet.com  Sun Aug 11 10:57:45 2002
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 10:57:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] BAD HAIKU
Message-ID: <3D567B68.9B2CC4D1@localnet.com>

Dear List Members,

I'm lookin for Bad Haiku or Zappai in the following categories.  If you
have some bad ideas, please backchannel me.

Thanks,

Helen Ruggieri
hruggier at localnet.com

ZAPPAI


Answeringmachineku

Bioku
Bumperstickerku
Ekphrastiku
Erotiku
Litku
MFAku
Newsku
 headlines
 newsku
 policeblotterku
 editorialku
 obitku
 reviewku
  books
  movies

Marqueeku

Miscku
 trailer park haiku
 redneck haiku
 KKKku
Placeku
Surrealku
Suburbanku
Urbanku

If you have any new categories to suggest - I'm up for those too -
e.g. MFA ku was suggested by a former student -
    workshop politics
    say anything useful - your turn
    get sharp stick in eye



From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Sun Aug 11 11:29:56 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 08:29:56 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] BAD HAIKU
References: <3D567B68.9B2CC4D1@localnet.com>
Message-ID: <3D5682F5.F54F7931@earthlink.net>


Helen Ruggieri wrote:
> 
> Dear List Members,
> 
> If you have any new categories to suggest - I'm up for those too -
> e.g. MFA ku was suggested by a former student -
>     workshop politics
>     say anything useful - your turn
>     get sharp stick in eye
> 

One Body/Two Places

Low residency,
high intensity - what pain
to run out of stamps.

* * *
Revelation

Submission is blind,
judge deaf to your name. Free book
come and all is known.

* * *
An Aesthetic

Be accessible
to all, and to all a prize.
Yes! First read, right read.

* * *
Po-Po-Mo-Po

Embrace ellipses,
love thy brackets, mount Buicks
on constellations.

- Jim
p.s. - What, no Bushku?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The wheel is turning, but the hamster's dead. - anon
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes:  jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html


From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Aug 11 11:37:19 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 11:37:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] BAD HAIKU
In-Reply-To: <3D567B68.9B2CC4D1@localnet.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEBKFGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

  
{    Dear List Members,
{    
{    I'm lookin for Bad Haiku . . .

Bad Haiku is a spa in the Schwartzwald, SSW of
Baden-Baden, not too far from Freiburg. It's a spa
that, for years, has been popular with Japanese
pilgrims, esp. those suffering from waka-, tanka-,
or sadokatitis. 

Hal         "is there enough silence here for a glass of water"
                                  --David Antin
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Sun Aug 11 12:46:29 2002
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole)
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 12:46:29 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bushku
References: <3D567B68.9B2CC4D1@localnet.com> <3D5682F5.F54F7931@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <001401c24156$a704d5a0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

I too understand
the free enterprise system can be
so very tender


Yasser Arafat
 now free to show leadership
and to lead the world

state of the Union
--whatever you want to call --
speech to the Nation?

One initiative
we've taken in Washington
--vampire busting

We need to assure
the parties involved that peace
will never happen


I would not accept
a treaty that I thought made
sense for the country

important for folks
to understand when there's more
trade there's more commerce





SITUATIONS
pub date August 1
to order - or for more info
http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards/situations.html


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2002 11:29 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] BAD HAIKU


> 
> 
> Helen Ruggieri wrote:
> > 
> > Dear List Members,
> > 
> > If you have any new categories to suggest - I'm up for those too -
> > e.g. MFA ku was suggested by a former student -
> >     workshop politics
> >     say anything useful - your turn
> >     get sharp stick in eye
> > 
> 
> One Body/Two Places
> 
> Low residency,
> high intensity - what pain
> to run out of stamps.
> 
> * * *
> Revelation
> 
> Submission is blind,
> judge deaf to your name. Free book
> come and all is known.
> 
> * * *
> An Aesthetic
> 
> Be accessible
> to all, and to all a prize.
> Yes! First read, right read.
> 
> * * *
> Po-Po-Mo-Po
> 
> Embrace ellipses,
> love thy brackets, mount Buicks
> on constellations.
> 
> - Jim
> p.s. - What, no Bushku?
> 
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> The wheel is turning, but the hamster's dead. - anon
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> James Cervantes:  jvcervantes at earthlink.net
> Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
> RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Sun Aug 11 13:52:04 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 10:52:04 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bushku
References: <3D567B68.9B2CC4D1@localnet.com> <3D5682F5.F54F7931@earthlink.net> <001401c24156$a704d5a0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3D56A444.C1D6B2CE@earthlink.net>

God reinstated
after brief absence. Bush sees
angels in black robes.

* * *

Bad, bad C.E.O.s
will pay for taking.  Cheney-
mouse peeks out from hole.

* * *

Fireworks under God,
dead weddings. Now go to sleep
with Dubya nightlight.

* * *

Behind me are signs
that all I say is my truth.
Buzzards in June sky.


theoldmole wrote:
> 
> I too understand
> the free enterprise system can be
> so very tender
> 
> Yasser Arafat
>  now free to show leadership
> and to lead the world
> 
> state of the Union
> --whatever you want to call --
> speech to the Nation?
> 
> One initiative
> we've taken in Washington
> --vampire busting
> 
> We need to assure
> the parties involved that peace
> will never happen
> 
> I would not accept
> a treaty that I thought made
> sense for the country
> 
> important for folks
> to understand when there's more
> trade there's more commerce
> 
> SITUATIONS
> pub date August 1
> to order - or for more info
> http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards/situations.html
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, August 11, 2002 11:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] BAD HAIKU
> 
> >
> >
> > Helen Ruggieri wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear List Members,
> > >
> > > If you have any new categories to suggest - I'm up for those too -
> > > e.g. MFA ku was suggested by a former student -
> > >     workshop politics
> > >     say anything useful - your turn
> > >     get sharp stick in eye
> > >
> >
> > One Body/Two Places
> >
> > Low residency,
> > high intensity - what pain
> > to run out of stamps.
> >
> > * * *
> > Revelation
> >
> > Submission is blind,
> > judge deaf to your name. Free book
> > come and all is known.
> >
> > * * *
> > An Aesthetic
> >
> > Be accessible
> > to all, and to all a prize.
> > Yes! First read, right read.
> >
> > * * *
> > Po-Po-Mo-Po
> >
> > Embrace ellipses,
> > love thy brackets, mount Buicks
> > on constellations.
> >
> > - Jim
> > p.s. - What, no Bushku?
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > The wheel is turning, but the hamster's dead. - anon
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > James Cervantes:  jvcervantes at earthlink.net
> > Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
> > RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From hruggier at localnet.com  Sun Aug 11 20:18:33 2002
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 20:18:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] BAD HAIKU
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEBKFGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3D56FED9.C39C794F@localnet.com>

(I wanted to say "not that bad!" but it seemed rather short - Bad Spa
poems might be another category.)

H

Halvard Johnson wrote:

>
> {    Dear List Members,
> {
> {    I'm lookin for Bad Haiku . . .
>
> Bad Haiku is a spa in the Schwartzwald, SSW of
> Baden-Baden, not too far from Freiburg. It's a spa
> that, for years, has been popular with Japanese
> pilgrims, esp. those suffering from waka-, tanka-,
> or sadokatitis.
>
> Hal         "is there enough silence here for a glass of water"
>                                   --David Antin
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From hruggier at localnet.com  Sun Aug 11 20:22:07 2002
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 20:22:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] BAD HAIKU
References: <3D567B68.9B2CC4D1@localnet.com> <3D5682F5.F54F7931@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3D56FFAF.1FC64DA0@localnet.com>

Yes, many bushku
whole category is full -
isn't that right, dad!
        Your fault.
James Cervantes wrote:

> Helen Ruggieri wrote:
> >
> > Dear List Members,
> >
> > If you have any new categories to suggest - I'm up for those too -
> > e.g. MFA ku was suggested by a former student -
> >     workshop politics
> >     say anything useful - your turn
> >     get sharp stick in eye
> >
>
> One Body/Two Places
>
> Low residency,
> high intensity - what pain
> to run out of stamps.
>
> * * *
> Revelation
>
> Submission is blind,
> judge deaf to your name. Free book
> come and all is known.
>
> * * *
> An Aesthetic
>
> Be accessible
> to all, and to all a prize.
> Yes! First read, right read.
>
> * * *
> Po-Po-Mo-Po
>
> Embrace ellipses,
> love thy brackets, mount Buicks
> on constellations.
>
> - Jim
> p.s. - What, no Bushku?
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> The wheel is turning, but the hamster's dead. - anon
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> James Cervantes:  jvcervantes at earthlink.net
> Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
> RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From hruggier at localnet.com  Sun Aug 11 21:13:16 2002
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 2002 21:13:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] BAD HAIKU
References: <3D567B68.9B2CC4D1@localnet.com> <3D5682F5.F54F7931@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3D570BAC.9A597D8F@localnet.com>

What about Clintonku
    that's both Bill and Hillary

James Cervantes wrote:

> Helen Ruggieri wrote:
> >
> > Dear List Members,
> >
> > If you have any new categories to suggest - I'm up for those too -
> > e.g. MFA ku was suggested by a former student -
> >     workshop politics
> >     say anything useful - your turn
> >     get sharp stick in eye
> >
>
> One Body/Two Places
>
> Low residency,
> high intensity - what pain
> to run out of stamps.
>
> * * *
> Revelation
>
> Submission is blind,
> judge deaf to your name. Free book
> come and all is known.
>
> * * *
> An Aesthetic
>
> Be accessible
> to all, and to all a prize.
> Yes! First read, right read.
>
> * * *
> Po-Po-Mo-Po
>
> Embrace ellipses,
> love thy brackets, mount Buicks
> on constellations.
>
> - Jim
> p.s. - What, no Bushku?
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> The wheel is turning, but the hamster's dead. - anon
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> James Cervantes:  jvcervantes at earthlink.net
> Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
> RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon Aug 12 09:30:11 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 2002 09:30:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Gunnar Ekelof, "Xoanon"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKECCFGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

With this one there are a few notes on Greek terms. I'll
place those above the poem. Accent marks are placed
just before the letter they should be above.

Notes:  Xoanon: ancient wooden image in Greek temples,
	i.e. an icon.

	Basm'a: the shield (protection) of silver covering
certain icons completely, except for faces and hands.

	Maphorion: head-dress, veil.

	Hodig'itria: the woman who leads; a type of
madonna on the icon.

	Philo'usa: the one who loves (or kisses); a type
of madonna on the icon.

***

Xoanon

In you I possess a miracle-working Icon
If to possess is to possess nothing:
As she possesses me, so I possess her.
She was given to me on the day she 'revealed herself'
At a time and place decided upon beforehand
And the same Panay'ia is revealed
Whenever the heart so wishes. Supported by her arm
On a footstool in receding perspective
Stands a grown-up baby in princely swaddling-clothes
Who is the last Prince of my line
I remove him, for everything that pertains
To this Panay'ia is removable
As a robber can wrench
The silver-smith's basm'a from some image
With smoke-blackened hands and worn away by kisses
I remove the crown, I remove the two angels
The annunciators of bliss

From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Aug 13 10:27:31 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 10:27:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Grand Opening of PWLGC Literary Center invitation
In-Reply-To: <31.2aa89c10.2a77ed9d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D58DF13.10484.A9A79D@localhost>

http://www.pwlgc.com/events.htm


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com




From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Aug 13 15:35:19 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 15:35:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Jiri Kolar (1914-2002)
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEEEFGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>



http://www.ubu.com/historical/kolar/kolar1.html


Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From antrobin at clipper.net  Tue Aug 13 22:14:36 2002
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 2002 19:14:36 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] poem
References: <2843D549.7194CFFF.97945D2E@aol.com>
Message-ID: <02a001c24338$5873aa40$c1aeefd8@0021936706>

Downwards in the Repeated Source

It continues me to occur repeated periods, and it is asked to you that what
are him and I can offer only synonymous: heart or bazo, kidney or
approximate trade. And we are word of support per period of word.each which
you opened his mouth, attempt to classify our relation, or I throw you in
terms of Victorian lovers: are Jane Eyre or Catherine Earnshaw? You are
always a lantern of signal. It could be Rochester, lamp-shade as out of
wooden and abusive with the insane women, it could be burned in a fire,
could be like Mr. Odious like Heathcliff and burn me for you. What is what
occurs when you live with a cat of the horizontal presentation on microfilm.
The whole world on side falls, the attempts of the sky to maintain, the
attempts to contain what you called the Covetousness-With-Heart which could
mean "with him" adores simply me but wishes don't to sleep with.

And ami-cum-philly I feel the same manner, but but only the desire to paint
only naked vous, and wanted with him that we shout on top of the dead
friends and who we took with care same marriages ours! And this are not
thus, the tragedy of pronouns. Our mine of the means of tin and mine only,
or ours collectively but not us together. And us with the smolder, and the
yellow blinkings of paper. If we are fireflies, we are antiquated and
monogamous we have a smile of each one. And was I said how to him given an
electric shock had to see him in a photograph, or something much of
photographs? You found the reinforcement? No good. I'll indicate to him.
Their teeth were much and your memory larger than of nose and its stiff and
you stiff of reinforcement were enough always more lurid and absolved but I
didn't of the feeling. It felt sadness and shame and me went to the church
and I put myself at knees downwards in the repeated source and I washed at
times of face.

***
"The incredible never surprises us because it is the incredible."
Emily Dickinson

***
"The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous gap in poetry
which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but which would be
better left alone."
Kenneth Koch

***
...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us but yet its in
us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals.
Russell Hoban, "Riddley Walker"


----- Original Message -----
From: <JackKerouac25 at aol.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 8:26 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Philip Larkin "A Study of Reading
Habits"


> A Study of Reading Habits
> Philip Larkin
>
> When getting my nose in a book
> Cured most things short of school,
> It was worth ruining my eyes
> To know I could still keep cool,
> And deal out the old right hook
> To dirty dogs twice my size.
>
> Later, with inch-thick specs,
> Evil was just my lark:
> Me and my coat and fangs
> Had ripping times in the dark.
> The women I clubbed with sex!
> I broke them up like meringues.
>
> Don't read much now: the dude
> Who lets the girl down before
> The hero arrives, the chap
> Who's yellow and keeps the store
> Seem far too familiar. Get stewed:
> Books are a load of crap.
>
> ___________________________________________________
>
> Jeff Newberry "Just one more dirty dog twice Larkin's size"
> University of West Florida
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Aug 14 08:06:53 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:06:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] poem
In-Reply-To: <02a001c24338$5873aa40$c1aeefd8@0021936706>
Message-ID: <3D5A0F9D.17109.2C6FC1@localhost>

> Downwards in the Repeated Source
> 
> It continues me to occur repeated periods, and it is asked to you that what
> are him and I can offer only synonymous: heart or bazo, kidney or
> approximate trade. 

Downwards in the Reputed Sauce

It cantankerous meat to a cur reputed menstruation, and it ain't 
nuthin' to you that this don't make no sense a-tall and I can only 
get off by pretending I mean something by deliberately meaning 
nothing:  hart, bezel, kid knee or proxy mate swap.  I could write 
like this forever.  
Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Aug 14 08:35:12 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:35:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] poem
In-Reply-To: <3D5A0F9D.17109.2C6FC1@localhost>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEEMFGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

   
{    > Downwards in the Repeated Source
{    > 
{    > It continues me to occur repeated periods, and it is asked to you that what
{    > are him and I can offer only synonymous: heart or bazo, kidney or
{    > approximate trade. 
{    
{    Downwards in the Reputed Sauce
{    
{    It cantankerous meat to a cur reputed menstruation, and it ain't 
{    nuthin' to you that this don't make no sense a-tall and I can only 
{    get off by pretending I mean something by deliberately meaning 
{    nothing:  hart, bezel, kid knee or proxy mate swap.  I could write 
{    like this forever.  
{    Marcus Bales

If only you would.

Hal            "language--the Riviera of consciousness"
                                 --Bob Perelman

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Aug 14 08:52:08 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:52:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] poem
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEEMFGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
References: <3D5A0F9D.17109.2C6FC1@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D5A1A38.15789.55DD12@localhost>

> {    > Downwards in the Repeated Source
> {    > 
> {    > It continues me to occur repeated periods, and it is asked to you that what
> {    > are him and I can offer only synonymous: heart or bazo, kidney or
> {    > approximate trade. 

> {    Downwards in the Reputed Sauce
> {    
> {    It cantankerous meat to a cur reputed menstruation, and it ain't 
> {    nuthin' to you that this don't make no sense a-tall and I can only 
> {    get off by pretending I mean something by deliberately meaning 
> {    nothing:  hart, bezel, kid knee or proxy mate swap.  I could write 
> {    like this forever.  
> {    Marcus Bales

Hal:
> If only you would.

To what end?  To sound as nonsensical as you and this other guy?

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Aug 14 08:51:00 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 08:51:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] poem
In-Reply-To: <3D5A1A38.15789.55DD12@localhost>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEENFGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

  
{    > {    > Downwards in the Repeated Source
{    > {    > 
{    > {    > It continues me to occur repeated periods, and it is asked to you that what
{    > {    > are him and I can offer only synonymous: heart or bazo, kidney or
{    > {    > approximate trade. 
{    
{    > {    Downwards in the Reputed Sauce
{    > {    
{    > {    It cantankerous meat to a cur reputed menstruation, and it ain't 
{    > {    nuthin' to you that this don't make no sense a-tall and I can only 
{    > {    get off by pretending I mean something by deliberately meaning 
{    > {    nothing:  hart, bezel, kid knee or proxy mate swap.  I could write 
{    > {    like this forever.  
{    > {    Marcus Bales
{    
{    Hal:
{    > If only you would.
{    
{    To what end?  To sound as nonsensical as you and this other guy?
{    
{    Marcus Bales

For starters, yes.

Hal            "language--the Riviera of consciousness"
                                 --Bob Perelman

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Aug 14 09:32:21 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 09:32:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] poem
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEENFGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
References: <3D5A1A38.15789.55DD12@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D5A23A5.31800.7AB2D0@localhost>

> {    > {    > Downwards in the Repeated Source
> {    > {    > It continues me to occur repeated periods, and it is asked to you that what
> {    > {    > are him and I can offer only synonymous: heart or bazo, kidney or
> {    > {    > approximate trade. 

> {    > {    Downwards in the Reputed Sauce
> {    > {    It cantankerous meat to a cur reputed menstruation, and it ain't 
> {    > {    nuthin' to you that this don't make no sense a-tall and I can only 
> {    > {    get off by pretending I mean something by deliberately meaning 
> {    > {    nothing:  hart, bezel, kid knee or proxy mate swap.  I could write 
> {    > {    like this forever.  
> {    > {    Marcus Bales

> {    Hal:
> {    > If only you would.

Marcus:
> {    To what end?  To sound as nonsensical as you and this other guy?

Hal:
> For starters, yes.

You know, when I was a speechwriter for Mac Mathias, on a trip to 
Tanager Island where they still speak in what sounds like 
Shakespearean English, the locals crabbed for crabs, as they do for a 
living, while Mathias crabbed for votes, as he did.  I noticed that 
none of the crab baskets had tops on them but that no matter how many 
crabs were in a basket no crabs climbed out.  Mathias finished his 
vote solicitations and looked at me a little sadly and said "They 
don't need tops because whenever an enterprising crab starts to climb 
out of the basket the others drag it back down."


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Aug 14 10:31:56 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 10:31:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] poem
In-Reply-To: <3D5A23A5.31800.7AB2D0@localhost>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEEEOFGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

{    You know, when I was a speechwriter for Mac Mathias, on a trip to 
{    Tanager Island where they still speak in what sounds like 
{    Shakespearean English, the locals crabbed for crabs, as they do for a 
{    living, while Mathias crabbed for votes, as he did.  I noticed that 
{    none of the crab baskets had tops on them but that no matter how many 
{    crabs were in a basket no crabs climbed out.  Mathias finished his 
{    vote solicitations and looked at me a little sadly and said "They 
{    don't need tops because whenever an enterprising crab starts to climb 
{    out of the basket the others drag it back down."
{    
{    
{    Marcus Bales

And you see yourself as that enterprising crab, right?

You know, you're a witty and intelligent guy, Marcus, and I've grown
fond of you over the years. The main difference between us is that
you see the world of poetry as narrow and fixed, and I see it as broad
and without boundary. You see heresies where I see innovations, new
possibilities. I admire your devotion to logical analysis, but I wish you
were more aware of its appropriate venues. And maybe, while you're
at it, you might try a bit more to open yourself up to new perspectives.

Hal            "language--the Riviera of consciousness"
                                 --Bob Perelman

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Wed Aug 14 10:37:24 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 07:37:24 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] poem
References: <3D5A1A38.15789.55DD12@localhost> <3D5A23A5.31800.7AB2D0@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D5A6B23.BB41FF42@earthlink.net>

Marcus Bales wrote:
>
> You know, when I was a speechwriter for Mac Mathias, on a trip to
> Tanager Island where they still speak in what sounds like
> Shakespearean English, the locals crabbed for crabs, as they do for a
> living, while Mathias crabbed for votes, as he did.  I noticed that
> none of the crab baskets had tops on them but that no matter how many
> crabs were in a basket no crabs climbed out.  Mathias finished his
> vote solicitations and looked at me a little sadly and said "They
> don't need tops because whenever an enterprising crab starts to climb
> out of the basket the others drag it back down."
> 

Which crab do you imagine yourself to be?

- Jim


From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Aug 14 11:06:58 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 11:06:58 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Metropolis"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEEPFGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Metropolis

They have already moved into their new apartment, the one
with the fridge full of ice cream. Their orphaned parents
welcome them, susceptible as they are to random rebellions.

Furious and energetic, they elope once again, leaving the wedding
party at the church, superfluous and spare. Cantankerous hermits
leave the building by a door at the rear of the ground floor.

Strawberry-flavored earthquakes are their legacy, gladdened
by their presence. After all the congratulations are said
and done, something comes to an end. Lucky at cards, etc.


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Wed Aug 14 11:58:07 2002
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 10:58:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] More by Terrance Hayes
Message-ID: <200208141557.g7EFv3F57667@mx13.mx.voyager.net>

For a project I'm working on I've been reading a lot of poetry this summer
that's new to me, including both poets and styles that test my own
boundaries a bit.  Sometimes it's refreshing, exciting, exacting work; at
other times I feel as though I'm on a carousel that I wish would slow down a
bit.

In any case, Terrance Hayes, whose goofball "Sonnet" I posted last night, 
is a poet new to me.  Well worth looking at.  Two books out to date:  the
first is *Muscular Music* and the second is *Hip Logic*.  

I admire his recklessness, in that he seems willing to try about
anything--most definitely including stunts like "Sonnet," but also much more
mainstream and "conventional" effects.  Rare, I think, to find poets with
such flexibility.

Two more from Hayes, both appearing in *Hip Logic*.   The first is quite a
mainstream eulogy.  The second is in a crazed form of Hayes's invention,
"anagram poems"; I'll quote his explanation following.

For Robert Hayden

Did your father come home after fighting
through the week at work? Did the sweat change
to salt in his ears? Was that bitter white

grain the only music he'd hear? Is this why
you were quiet when other poets sang
of the black man's beauty? Is this why

you choked on the tonsil of Negro Duty?
Were there as many offices for pain
as love? Should a black man never be shy?

Was your father a mountain twenty
shovels couldn't bury? Was he a train
leaving a lone column of smoke? Was he

a black magnolia singing at your feet?
Was he a blackjack smashed against your throat?
       --Terrance Hayes
________________________________

o v e r s e a s
                                     

I traveled so far West it became East again, over
the mountains & through the woods until the mountains rose
again. I knew no one & knew no one could save
me. I learned to savor
the soft pink flesh of fish & listen to the odd verse
whispered by my stooped eaves-
dropping neighbor, the shy old woman obliged to serve
green tea from a stout yellow vase.
All the kneeling made my knees sore.
I moved with the ease
of an ink stain on a white kimono in a skin I couldn?t erase.
________________________________


From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu  Wed Aug 14 13:43:35 2002
From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 12:43:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] poem
In-Reply-To: <3D5A23A5.31800.7AB2D0@localhost>
References: <3D5A1A38.15789.55DD12@localhost>
 <3D5A23A5.31800.7AB2D0@localhost>
Message-ID: <a05100302b9804721defa@[165.190.124.251]>

So are we to assume that you are an enterprising crab?
ellen s.
-- 


From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Aug 14 13:40:36 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 13:40:36 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] poem
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEEEOFGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
References: <3D5A23A5.31800.7AB2D0@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D5A5DD4.26775.15E0206@localhost>

> {    You know, when I was a speechwriter for Mac Mathias, on a trip to 
> {    Tanager Island where they still speak in what sounds like 
> {    Shakespearean English, the locals crabbed for crabs, as they do for a 
> {    living, while Mathias crabbed for votes, as he did.  I noticed that 
> {    none of the crab baskets had tops on them but that no matter how many 
> {    crabs were in a basket no crabs climbed out.  Mathias finished his 
> {    vote solicitations and looked at me a little sadly and said "They 
> {    don't need tops because whenever an enterprising crab starts to climb 
> {    out of the basket the others drag it back down."

Hal:
> And you see yourself as that enterprising crab, right?<<

No, Hal, not me in particular -- but I sure see you as one of the 
crabs who drags others down because you are full of what seem to be 
entirely unreflective positions that you simply refuse, perhaps 
wisely, to try to explain.  

But the trouble is not that you apparently hold unreflective 
positions but that you refuse to examine them or tolerate others 
examining them.  Your flip and off-hand rejections of any questions 
about, or attempts to re-state, your apparent positions leaves anyone 
trying to understand what you really hold and don't hold left looking 
at your ineffectual hand-waving without getting any sense that there 
is anything to what you think besides that hand-waving.

> ....The main difference between us is that
> you see the world of poetry as narrow and fixed, and I see it as broad
> and without boundary.<<

This is simply not the case -- you aver that I see it as narrow and 
fixed but that's a result not of my assertions that it is fixed but 
rather as a result of my challenges to what you seem to hold. 

> ...You see heresies where I see innovations, new
> possibilities. ...<

This is simply not the case, again.  Your claim that you see 
innovations goes entirely undefended by any reasonable means.  You 
seem to think that merely by asserting something you've made a case 
for it -- a common and wrong opinion.  Your apparent resentment of 
any questioning of your holy opinions seems to look like a burning 
offense to you, and you remain arrogantly dismissive of any challenge 
to or question about what the possibilities are that you claim to see 
or what the innovations are that you claim to observe.

I'm trying to find out what people think good poetry is, and what 
directions, if the directional metaphor won't be as misinterpreted as 
the crab one, of innovation are making good poetry.

Any chance you really want to talk about this sort of thing?


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Aug 14 14:04:13 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 14:04:13 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Gunnar Ekelof, "Like Ankle-Rings, This Music"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEFEFGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Like Ankle-Rings, This Music

Like ankle-rings, this music,
if Nothing is ankle and Nothing the rhythm
in which the foot is lifted and slowly stamping
goes round round the circle of round rug. Desire
is born and disappears just as apparently
as the increasing decreasing swelling of the pulse
in the bend of the arm--or like the breath
vibrating with jewels. Its drum is the heart
under a deft hand, to impersonality
a rattle attached to a snake's tail
or a rattle in a child's hand, as aimlessly
shaken in the natural unknown rhythm

--Gunnar Ekelof

tr. Muriel Rukeyser and Leif Sjoberg


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Aug 14 14:34:45 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 14:34:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] poem
In-Reply-To: <3D5A5DD4.26775.15E0206@localhost>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEFEFGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

 
{    Any chance you really want to talk about this sort of thing?
{    
{    
{    Marcus Bales

Not a lot, Marcus. I have even less interest in determining what
"good" poetry is than I have in determining what *poetry* is. I do
have interestests and preferences and predilections, as you know--
or as anyone knows who pays some attention to what I write and 
what I post of the work of others, but I don't presume to suggest 
that nothing else is "good." I'm more interesting in reading and writing 
poems and sometimes fiction or nonfiction than in holding opinions 
and making judgments. You take much more stock in that than I do.
If you think I'm trying to "make a case" for something, I'm afraid
that's *your* problem. Good luck with it.

"A monk said to Eimyo, 'I have been with you a long time, but
I have yet to grasp your way of  looking at things.' Eimyo said,
'Understand that you don't understand!' The monk said, 'If I
don't understand, how can I understand anything?' Eimyo
replied, 'The womb of a cow gives birth to an elephant, and
the blue sea produces yellow dust.'"

Ciao,

Hal            "language--the Riviera of consciousness"
                                 --Bob Perelman

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From marcus at designerglass.com  Wed Aug 14 14:59:34 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 14:59:34 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] poem
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEFEFGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
References: <3D5A5DD4.26775.15E0206@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D5A7056.15347.1A65106@localhost>

Hal:
> ... I'm more interesting in reading and writing 
> poems and sometimes fiction or nonfiction than in holding opinions 
> and making judgments.<<

But if you don't hold opinions or make judgments how do you know if 
your work is worthwhile or just junk or something in between, or 
occasionally one or the other?  

You're taking the "know-nothing" position, here.

> "A monk said to Eimyo, 'I have been with you a long time, but
> I have yet to grasp your way of  looking at things.' Eimyo said,
> 'Understand that you don't understand!' The monk said, 'If I
> don't understand, how can I understand anything?' Eimyo
> replied, 'The womb of a cow gives birth to an elephant, and
> the blue sea produces yellow dust.'"<<

And here you're once again taking the ineffectual hand-waving 
position where you think that by saying nonsense, or quoting it, that 
you've said something when you've said, or quoted, only nonsense.

The notion that you can make poems without using judgment is like the 
notion that you can make love without using emotion.



Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Aug 14 17:23:50 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 17:23:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] poem
In-Reply-To: <3D5A7056.15347.1A65106@localhost>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEFGFGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Whatever you say, Marcus. I don't mind not knowing.

Hal
   
{    Hal:
{    > ... I'm more interesting in reading and writing 
{    > poems and sometimes fiction or nonfiction than in holding opinions 
{    > and making judgments.<<
{    
{    But if you don't hold opinions or make judgments how do you know if 
{    your work is worthwhile or just junk or something in between, or 
{    occasionally one or the other?  
{    
{    You're taking the "know-nothing" position, here.
{    
{    > "A monk said to Eimyo, 'I have been with you a long time, but
{    > I have yet to grasp your way of  looking at things.' Eimyo said,
{    > 'Understand that you don't understand!' The monk said, 'If I
{    > don't understand, how can I understand anything?' Eimyo
{    > replied, 'The womb of a cow gives birth to an elephant, and
{    > the blue sea produces yellow dust.'"<<
{    
{    And here you're once again taking the ineffectual hand-waving 
{    position where you think that by saying nonsense, or quoting it, that 
{    you've said something when you've said, or quoted, only nonsense.
{    
{    The notion that you can make poems without using judgment is like the 
{    notion that you can make love without using emotion.
{    
{    
{    
{    Marcus Bales
{    
{    marcus at designerglass.com
{    http://www.designerglass.com
{    
{    
{    
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From gmcvay at patriot.net  Wed Aug 14 19:17:37 2002
From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 19:17:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] poem
In-Reply-To: <3D5A7056.15347.1A65106@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208141916500.13354-100000@adams.patriot.net>

Dear Marcus,

No offense, but boy, would you make a crummy Zen student. Stick to 
whatever it is you are now.

Gwyn, an enterprising shrimp



From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu  Wed Aug 14 21:43:07 2002
From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 20:43:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] poem
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208141916500.13354-100000@adams.patriot.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208141916500.13354-100000@adams.patriot.net>
Message-ID: <a05100303b980b772f49a@[165.190.124.251]>

This is all starting to sound like an episode of Sponge-Bob Square 
Pants (a most amusing Nickelodeon cartoon to which my role as a 
parent has exposed me).
ellen s.
-- 


From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Wed Aug 14 21:10:47 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 09:10:47 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] poem
References: <3D5A0F9D.17109.2C6FC1@localhost>
Message-ID: <005601c243f8$99376510$5c864cca@JROSS2>

Please don't ...

Zan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poem


> > Downwards in the Repeated Source
> >
> > It continues me to occur repeated periods, and it is asked to you that
what
> > are him and I can offer only synonymous: heart or bazo, kidney or
> > approximate trade.
>
> Downwards in the Reputed Sauce
>
> It cantankerous meat to a cur reputed menstruation, and it ain't
> nuthin' to you that this don't make no sense a-tall and I can only
> get off by pretending I mean something by deliberately meaning
> nothing:  hart, bezel, kid knee or proxy mate swap.  I could write
> like this forever.
> Marcus Bales
>
> marcus at designerglass.com
> http://www.designerglass.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Wed Aug 14 21:29:31 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 09:29:31 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] poem
References: <3D5A5DD4.26775.15E0206@localhost> <3D5A7056.15347.1A65106@localhost>
Message-ID: <009601c243fb$36341370$5c864cca@JROSS2>

Marcus wrote:
> But if you don't hold opinions or make judgments how do you know if
> your work is worthwhile or just junk or something in between, or
> occasionally one or the other?

Zan writes:
As annoyed as I am at myself for actually replying, I reckon Hal exhibits
his "judgement" in the calibre of work he posts for us to enjoy.  (I reckon
the same re David.)

Marcus wrote:
> You're taking the "know-nothing" position, here.

Zan writes:
I believe that is the accusatory position you force nearly everyone else on
this list into.

Marcus wrote re Zen story:
> And here you're once again taking the ineffectual hand-waving
> position where you think that by saying nonsense, or quoting it, that
> you've said something when you've said, or quoted, only nonsense.

Zan writes:
Again this is your opinion, not all of ours.  And since opinions are like
noses, eveyone has one, you can keep hold of yours.

Marcus wrote:
> The notion that you can make poems without using judgment is like the
> notion that you can make love without using emotion.

Zan writes:
Frankly, you can have sex without any emotion being involved.  And on that
note, one must suspend judgement while writing, or one gets no writing done
at all.





From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Wed Aug 14 21:44:01 2002
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 2002 20:44:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Terrance Hayes
Message-ID: <200208150142.g7F1gwU75524@mx10.mx.voyager.net>

Just realized I had a little midlife moment earlier today, involving a mixup
of two lists.  In case anyone was curious, below is the poem by Terrance
Hayes that I apparently did *not* post to NewPoetry. . . .

For the record, this is not my favorite Hayes poem.  
========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================



Sonnet


We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
We sliced the watermelon into smiles.

--Terrance Hayes.  *Hip Logic*.  Penguin, 2000.

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================



From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Aug 15 08:44:37 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 08:44:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] poem
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEFGFGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
References: <3D5A7056.15347.1A65106@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D5B69F5.15219.4EEE84@localhost>

> {    Hal:
> {    > ... I'm more interesting in reading and writing 
> {    > poems and sometimes fiction or nonfiction than in holding opinions 
> {    > and making judgments.<<

Marcus:
> {    But if you don't hold opinions or make judgments how do you know if 
> {    your work is worthwhile or just junk or something in between, or 
> {    occasionally one or the other?  
> {    You're taking the "know-nothing" position, here.

Hal:
> {    > "A monk said to Eimyo, 'I have been with you a long time, but
> {    > I have yet to grasp your way of  looking at things.' Eimyo said,
> {    > 'Understand that you don't understand!' The monk said, 'If I
> {    > don't understand, how can I understand anything?' Eimyo
> {    > replied, 'The womb of a cow gives birth to an elephant, and
> {    > the blue sea produces yellow dust.'"<<

Marcus:
> {    And here you're once again taking the ineffectual hand-waving 
> {    position where you think that by saying nonsense, or quoting it, that 
> {    you've said something when you've said, or quoted, only nonsense.
> {    The notion that you can make poems without using judgment is like the 
> {    notion that you can make love without using emotion.

Hal:
> Whatever you say, Marcus. I don't mind not knowing.

Well, then, on what possible basis can you select poems to post to 
the list?  And why, if you are claiming, as you seem to be explicitly 
claiming, that you have no idea whether the poems you post are 
worthwhile or junk, should anyone else take any notice of them?

It seems to me that you are making a claim every time you post a 
poem: that this poem is worthwhile.  And if you're not making that 
claim then you're just wasting other peoples', as well as your own, 
time, along with whatever bandwidth it takes, to post them. 


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Aug 15 08:44:38 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 08:44:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] poem
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208141916500.13354-100000@adams.patriot.net>
References: <3D5A7056.15347.1A65106@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D5B69F6.25778.4EEFA7@localhost>

> Dear Marcus,
> No offense, but boy, would you make a crummy Zen student. Stick to 
> whatever it is you are now.

Dear Gwyn,
No offense, but girl, would you make a crummy philosophy student.  
Stick to whatever it is you are now.


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Aug 15 08:58:23 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 08:58:23 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] poem
In-Reply-To: <009601c243fb$36341370$5c864cca@JROSS2>
Message-ID: <3D5B6D2F.25300.5B8919@localhost>

> Marcus wrote:
> > But if you don't hold opinions or make judgments how do you know if
> > your work is worthwhile or just junk or something in between, or
> > occasionally one or the other?
> 
> Zan writes:
> As annoyed as I am at myself for actually replying, I reckon Hal exhibits
> his "judgement" in the calibre of work he posts for us to enjoy.  (I reckon
> the same re David.)

But on what grounds does he choose?  If his opinion is that he can't 
tell if any poem is worthless or worthy, and he doesn't care (as he's 
explicitly said) then why should anyone else care?  It seems to me 
that Hal's position is one of shooting others in the foot every time 
he posts a poem:  he is explicitly NOT claiming it is worthy, or 
worthless, or anything else, according to him, and yet you, and I 
doubt you're alone, are assuming that the very act of Hal's posting a 
poem is a claim that it is worthy.  

> Marcus wrote:
> > The notion that you can make poems without using judgment is like the
> > notion that you can make love without using emotion.
> 
> Zan writes:
> Frankly, you can have sex without any emotion being involved.  And on that
> note, one must suspend judgement while writing, or one gets no writing done
> at all.

So it must be your opinion then that ANY sex is "making love" and 
that "making love" is ONLY sex -- that there is not only nothing else 
involved, there can be nothing else involved, eh?

Your view seems to be that having written a golden shower of words no 
one, and certainly not the one who's showered the world with those 
words, can use any judgment whatever to change or criticize it -- 
every arrangement of words is, for you, then, judgment-proof?



Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu  Thu Aug 15 12:43:38 2002
From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Prentiss, Amber)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:43:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hiss, hiss
Message-ID: <B34CC5874D6F954E9B587FC833F4EDE0251370@ness.agnesscott.edu>

I woke up to an angry, hungry cat being dumped in the room I was sleeping
in. Did this happen to everyone? The semester hasn't even started yet! Save
the hissing for your department meetings. Or maybe not. It is more
entertaining than watching lie detector tests on talk shows.
-Amber


From barry.spacks at verizon.net  Thu Aug 15 12:42:55 2002
From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 09:42:55 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"
In-Reply-To: <200208151601.g7FG18609405@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20020815093339.00a12720@mail.verizon.net>

THE POET'S GAME
   (for Marcus Bales)

The poet's game
is baseball
because every spit, wacky
third-base signal
organ-blare
green grass at Fenway
counts (even a bit
the score).

And the poet's music
is jazz
because when Bird plays "Cherokee"
he never even
gets back to the tune
which is also
always nonetheless
there.

The journey
marimbas
along the ribs

implying
the spine.

The poet's soup
is Minestrone.

         -- Barry Spacks

***********
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From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Thu Aug 15 13:00:31 2002
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:00:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"
Message-ID: <200208151659.g7FGxSe84145@mx5.mx.voyager.net>

Now this is a game I like, Barry.


Ars Poetica

        --after John Ashbery's "What Is Poetry"

Please pass the condiment tray:
I'm sure some spice will help define things.

Are you hungry for meaning as I am?
Can you taste it, almost,

like ice cream from the ice age?  
Is the phone still complaining

with you at both ends?
Certainly I know just

what I'm doing here:  rubbing
words out on the blackboard

so as to make room 
for more.  But why?  Surely

we all hear the white noise
in its prairie distances

lamenting the unutterable cold.
Maybe someone--you?--should hum along.

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
From: Barry Spacks <barry.spacks at verizon.net>
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"
Date: Thu, Aug 15, 2002, 11:42 AM


THE POET'S GAME
  (for Marcus Bales)

The poet's game
is baseball
because every spit, wacky 
third-base signal
organ-blare 
green grass at Fenway
counts (even a bit
the score).

And the poet's music 
is jazz
because when Bird plays "Cherokee"
he never even 
gets back to the tune
which is also 
always nonetheless 
there.

The journey
marimbas 
along the ribs 

implying
the spine.

The poet's soup
is Minestrone.

        -- Barry Spacks

*********** 
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Aug 15 13:08:56 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 13:08:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20020815093339.00a12720@mail.verizon.net>
References: <200208151601.g7FG18609405@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <3D5BA7E8.29111.140F292@localhost>

DON'T WORRY, YOU'RE NOT IN THIS POEM
(for Barry Spacks)

Big names draw little name clusters
Like wrecks draw insurance adjusters: 
The image their raw hatred musters
	Is Manson or Dahmer;
The meetings and greetings and seatings
Of poets at poetry readings
Remind me of sharks at their feedings --
	Except sharks are calmer.

The women compete for attention

From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu  Thu Aug 15 15:33:04 2002
From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 14:33:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"
In-Reply-To: <3D5BA7E8.29111.140F292@localhost>
References: <200208151601.g7FG18609405@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
 <3D5BA7E8.29111.140F292@localhost>
Message-ID: <a05100302b981b1eacc1a@[165.190.124.251]>

I'll go read Pope for this sort of thing.  When he was doing it, 
there was a context for it.  Not to say that antiquarianism doesn't 
have its uses.  I believe Nietzsche has written on the function of 
the antiquarian.
ellen s.
-- 


From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Aug 15 14:38:29 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 14:38:29 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"
In-Reply-To: <a05100302b981b1eacc1a@[165.190.124.251]>
References: <3D5BA7E8.29111.140F292@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D5BBCE5.12215.192F2DB@localhost>

> I'll go read Pope for this sort of thing.  When he was doing it, 
> there was a context for it. <<

Pope did heroic couplets, dear.  What I wrote was more Byronic.
And of course, there is a context for satire at any time -- you just 
don't want to be the target of it, which is understandable, I guess. 
But there you are thinking you know it all.  he he he.


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 15 14:34:28 2002
From: thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com (bob cooper)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 18:34:28 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] poem
Message-ID: <F181FcfRZwz4IDjQei7000131ab@hotmail.com>

Hey, ellen thinks all this is hissing cats. Must admit I can feel the fur 
rise too. Meee-ow! But

"Marcus Bales" writes:

>Well, then, on what possible *basis* can you select poems to post to
>the list?  And why, if you are claiming, as you seem to be explicitly
>claiming, that you have no idea whether the poems you post are
>worthwhile or junk, should anyone else take any notice of them?
>
>It seems to me that you are making a *claim* every time you post a
>poem: that this poem is worthwhile.  And if you're not making that
>claim then you're just wasting other peoples', as well as your own,
>time, along with whatever bandwidth it takes, to post them.
>
>Marcus Bales

Don't worry about the basis, Hal, juss keep postin dem poems!
Don't worry about the claims, Hal, juss keep postin dem poems!
Why?
What kinda question is "why?"
Poets say, "here's one" not "why."
So juss keep postin them poems!
Bob

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com



From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Thu Aug 15 15:05:22 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:05:22 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"
References: <200208151601.g7FG18609405@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <3D5BA7E8.29111.140F292@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D5BFB71.E549E62C@earthlink.net>

Rejected on the basis of unimaginative rhymes, for one.

- an editor

Marcus Bales wrote:
> 
> DON'T WORRY, YOU'RE NOT IN THIS POEM
> (for Barry Spacks)
> 
> Big names draw little name clusters
> Like wrecks draw insurance adjusters:
> The image their raw hatred musters
>         Is Manson or Dahmer;
> The meetings and greetings and seatings
> Of poets at poetry readings
> Remind me of sharks at their feedings --
>         Except sharks are calmer.
> 
> The women compete for attention
> >From powerful people whose mention
> May get them promotion, a pension,
>         Or merely a raise;
> Another year fatter and older
> They flirt with old flames now grown colder
> Then fall for a younger one's bolder,
>         If less truthful, praise.
> 
> The men snort their picayune grouses
> And act like low libertine louses
> Betraying their principles, spouses,
>         And significant others,
> Drinking to knock back the terror
> That there's been a terrible error
> And history may yet prove a fairer
>         Judge than their mothers.
> 
> I watch the free-versers and rhymers,
> Idealists and down-in-the-slimers,
> Sweet hermits and sly social climbers
>         All chasing careers;
> Their earnestness makes me despair of them --
> Each likely recombinant pair of them;
> You'd think I'd have learned to beware of them,
>         Shielded by sneers.
> 
> But now they have organized locally,
> The urban-enraged and the yokelly,
> Leaving the business side jokily
>         Under-explored;
> Did I, when asked for my attitude,
> Give it?  Or give them wide latitude?
> No, I accepted with gratitude
>         A seat on the Board.
> 
> Marcus Bales
> 
> marcus at designerglass.com
> http://www.designerglass.com
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From marcus at designerglass.com  Thu Aug 15 15:17:59 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 15:17:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"
In-Reply-To: <3D5BFB71.E549E62C@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3D5BC627.3061.1B71FAE@localhost>

Jim Cervantes:
> Rejected on the basis of unimaginative rhymes, for one.

he he he -- oh, please, you're making my sides hurt.  From someone 
who proudly asserts that he cannot, has not, and will not read 
Tennyson, that's rich!

Marcus



> > DON'T WORRY, YOU'RE NOT IN THIS POEM
> > (for Barry Spacks)
> > 
> > Big names draw little name clusters
> > Like wrecks draw insurance adjusters:
> > The image their raw hatred musters
> >         Is Manson or Dahmer;
> > The meetings and greetings and seatings
> > Of poets at poetry readings
> > Remind me of sharks at their feedings --
> >         Except sharks are calmer.
> > 
> > The women compete for attention
> > >From powerful people whose mention
> > May get them promotion, a pension,
> >         Or merely a raise;
> > Another year fatter and older
> > They flirt with old flames now grown colder
> > Then fall for a younger one's bolder,
> >         If less truthful, praise.
> > 
> > The men snort their picayune grouses
> > And act like low libertine louses
> > Betraying their principles, spouses,
> >         And significant others,
> > Drinking to knock back the terror
> > That there's been a terrible error
> > And history may yet prove a fairer
> >         Judge than their mothers.
> > 
> > I watch the free-versers and rhymers,
> > Idealists and down-in-the-slimers,
> > Sweet hermits and sly social climbers
> >         All chasing careers;
> > Their earnestness makes me despair of them --
> > Each likely recombinant pair of them;
> > You'd think I'd have learned to beware of them,
> >         Shielded by sneers.
> > 
> > But now they have organized locally,
> > The urban-enraged and the yokelly,
> > Leaving the business side jokily
> >         Under-explored;
> > Did I, when asked for my attitude,
> > Give it?  Or give them wide latitude?
> > No, I accepted with gratitude
> >         A seat on the Board.
> > 
> > Marcus Bales
> > 
> > marcus at designerglass.com
> > http://www.designerglass.com
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From antrobin at clipper.net  Thu Aug 15 15:15:21 2002
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 12:15:21 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] recent discussion
References: <200208151659.g7FGxSe84145@mx5.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <011b01c24490$1bc3ee80$92aeefd8@0021936706>

"The Poet's Game"Hey Guys,

This is great fun. I'm gonna start putting up my "poems" more often if this is the fracas that results.
Hal, thanks for defending my right to not make sense.  Marcus, thanks for poetry policing. 
Given the current state of national security, we can never be too safe!!

Tony


***
"The incredible never surprises us because it is the incredible."
Emily Dickinson

***
"The Romantic movement left, when it departed, a tremendous gap in poetry which could be filled by criticism and by literary theory but which would be better left alone."
Kenneth Koch

***
...theres some thing in us it dont have no name...it aint us but yet its in us. Its looking out thru our eye hoals.
Russell Hoban, "Riddley Walker" 


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: David Graham 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 10:00 AM
  Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"


  Now this is a game I like, Barry.


  Ars Poetica

          --after John Ashbery's "What Is Poetry"

  Please pass the condiment tray:
  I'm sure some spice will help define things.

  Are you hungry for meaning as I am?
  Can you taste it, almost,

  like ice cream from the ice age?  
  Is the phone still complaining

  with you at both ends?
  Certainly I know just

  what I'm doing here:  rubbing
  words out on the blackboard

  so as to make room 
  for more.  But why?  Surely

  we all hear the white noise
  in its prairie distances

  lamenting the unutterable cold.
  Maybe someone--you?--should hum along.

  ========================================
  David Graham
  grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
  Home Page:
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
  Poetry Library:
  http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
  ========================================


  ----------
  From: Barry Spacks <barry.spacks at verizon.net>
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"
  Date: Thu, Aug 15, 2002, 11:42 AM



    THE POET'S GAME
      (for Marcus Bales)

    The poet's game
    is baseball
    because every spit, wacky 
    third-base signal
    organ-blare 
    green grass at Fenway
    counts (even a bit
    the score).

    And the poet's music 
    is jazz
    because when Bird plays "Cherokee"
    he never even 
    gets back to the tune
    which is also 
    always nonetheless 
    there.

    The journey
    marimbas 
    along the ribs 

    implying
    the spine.

    The poet's soup
    is Minestrone.

            -- Barry Spacks

    *********** 

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From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu Aug 15 16:48:23 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:48:23 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Gunnar Ekelof, "If You Ask Me"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEGNFGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

If You Ask Me

If you ask me where I am
Well I live here beyond the mountains
It is far but I am near
I live in another world
but you live in it too
It is everywhere, as rare as helium
Why do you ask for an aircraft to travel in
Ask instead for a filter for nitrogen
a filter for carbon dioxide, hydrogen and other gases
Ask for a filter for all that separates us
a filter for life
You say that you can hardly breathe
What of it! Who do you think can breathe?
Most of the time we take it equably
A wise man has said:
"It was so dark that I could barely see the stars."
He only meant that it was night.

--Gunnar Ekelof

tr. Muriel Rukeyser & Leif Sjoberg

Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From simon at ipfw.edu  Thu Aug 15 18:04:40 2002
From: simon at ipfw.edu (Beth Simon)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 17:04:40 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Gunnar Ekelof, "If You Ask
	Me"
Message-ID: <sd5bdf30.058@gw.ipfw.edu>

i don't know this poet.
this is translated from? Icelandic? Norwegian?

beth

>>> halvard at earthlink.net 08/15/02 15:53 PM >>>

If You Ask Me

If you ask me where I am
Well I live here beyond the mountains
It is far but I am near
I live in another world
but you live in it too
It is everywhere, as rare as helium
Why do you ask for an aircraft to travel in
Ask instead for a filter for nitrogen
a filter for carbon dioxide, hydrogen and other gases
Ask for a filter for all that separates us
a filter for life
You say that you can hardly breathe
What of it! Who do you think can breathe?
Most of the time we take it equably
A wise man has said:
"It was so dark that I could barely see the stars."
He only meant that it was night.

--Gunnar Ekelof

tr. Muriel Rukeyser & Leif Sjoberg

Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Thu Aug 15 18:36:36 2002
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 18:36:36 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"
References: <200208151601.g7FG18609405@wiz.cath.vt.edu> <3D5BA7E8.29111.140F292@localhost> <3D5BFB71.E549E62C@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <002c01c244ac$37f8a160$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

And if we're going to be picky, the scansion falters a bit in the third
stanza.

SITUATIONS
pub date August 1
to order - or for more info
http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards/situations.html


----- Original Message -----
From: "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2002 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"


> Rejected on the basis of unimaginative rhymes, for one.
>
> - an editor
>
> Marcus Bales wrote:
> >
> > DON'T WORRY, YOU'RE NOT IN THIS POEM
> > (for Barry Spacks)
> >
> > Big names draw little name clusters
> > Like wrecks draw insurance adjusters:
> > The image their raw hatred musters
> >         Is Manson or Dahmer;
> > The meetings and greetings and seatings
> > Of poets at poetry readings
> > Remind me of sharks at their feedings --
> >         Except sharks are calmer.
> >
> > The women compete for attention
> > >From powerful people whose mention
> > May get them promotion, a pension,
> >         Or merely a raise;
> > Another year fatter and older
> > They flirt with old flames now grown colder
> > Then fall for a younger one's bolder,
> >         If less truthful, praise.
> >
> > The men snort their picayune grouses
> > And act like low libertine louses
> > Betraying their principles, spouses,
> >         And significant others,
> > Drinking to knock back the terror
> > That there's been a terrible error
> > And history may yet prove a fairer
> >         Judge than their mothers.
> >
> > I watch the free-versers and rhymers,
> > Idealists and down-in-the-slimers,
> > Sweet hermits and sly social climbers
> >         All chasing careers;
> > Their earnestness makes me despair of them --
> > Each likely recombinant pair of them;
> > You'd think I'd have learned to beware of them,
> >         Shielded by sneers.
> >
> > But now they have organized locally,
> > The urban-enraged and the yokelly,
> > Leaving the business side jokily
> >         Under-explored;
> > Did I, when asked for my attitude,
> > Give it?  Or give them wide latitude?
> > No, I accepted with gratitude
> >         A seat on the Board.
> >
> > Marcus Bales
> >
> > marcus at designerglass.com
> > http://www.designerglass.com
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu Aug 15 19:00:06 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 19:00:06 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Gunnar Ekelof, "If You AskMe"
In-Reply-To: <sd5bdf30.058@gw.ipfw.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEHBFGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Gunnar Ekelof, Swedish (1907-1968).
(double-dot the "o")

Hal
    
{    i don't know this poet.
{    this is translated from? Icelandic? Norwegian?
{    
{    beth
{    
{    >>> halvard at earthlink.net 08/15/02 15:53 PM >>>
{    
{    If You Ask Me
{    
{    If you ask me where I am
{    Well I live here beyond the mountains
{    It is far but I am near
{    I live in another world
{    but you live in it too
{    It is everywhere, as rare as helium
{    Why do you ask for an aircraft to travel in
{    Ask instead for a filter for nitrogen
{    a filter for carbon dioxide, hydrogen and other gases
{    Ask for a filter for all that separates us
{    a filter for life
{    You say that you can hardly breathe
{    What of it! Who do you think can breathe?
{    Most of the time we take it equably
{    A wise man has said:
{    "It was so dark that I could barely see the stars."
{    He only meant that it was night.
{    
{    --Gunnar Ekelof
{    
{    tr. Muriel Rukeyser & Leif Sjoberg
{    
{    Hal
{    
{    Halvard Johnson
{    ===============
{    email: halvard at earthlink.net
{    website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
{    
{    
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu  Thu Aug 15 21:03:16 2002
From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 20:03:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] poem
In-Reply-To: <F181FcfRZwz4IDjQei7000131ab@hotmail.com>
References: <F181FcfRZwz4IDjQei7000131ab@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <a05100305b981ffb416a0@[165.190.124.251]>

The cat reference, Bob, has been misattributed to me.
ellen s.
-- 


From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu  Thu Aug 15 21:11:04 2002
From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 20:11:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"
In-Reply-To: <3D5BBCE5.12215.192F2DB@localhost>
References: <3D5BA7E8.29111.140F292@localhost>
 <3D5BBCE5.12215.192F2DB@localhost>
Message-ID: <a05100306b98200924ab5@[165.190.124.251]>

So how often did Byron write in rhyming triplets anyway?  Even in his 
satires, his rhymes tend to be crossed, not tripled.  Always a 
context for satire, indeed.  But the forms for said satire do change. 
Byron was a notably anti-romantic poet; my guess is that you'd have 
railed against him had he been a contemporary of yours.  She She.

Gilbert and Sullivan, maybe.
ellen s.
-- 


From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Thu Aug 15 19:42:52 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 16:42:52 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"
References: <3D5BA7E8.29111.140F292@localhost>
	 <3D5BBCE5.12215.192F2DB@localhost> <a05100306b98200924ab5@[165.190.124.251]>
Message-ID: <3D5C3C7C.BEF5165A@earthlink.net>

Oh, Ellen, Marcus IS a contemporary of Byron's.

- Jim

ellen smith wrote:
> 
> So how often did Byron write in rhyming triplets anyway?  Even in his
> satires, his rhymes tend to be crossed, not tripled.  Always a
> context for satire, indeed.  But the forms for said satire do change.
> Byron was a notably anti-romantic poet; my guess is that you'd have
> railed against him had he been a contemporary of yours.  She She.
> 
> Gilbert and Sullivan, maybe.
> ellen s.
> --
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 15 20:01:36 2002
From: thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com (bob cooper)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 00:01:36 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] poem
Message-ID: <F163cmgSEGXIpLGgUeR0001367a@hotmail.com>

Ooops!
Sorry ellen,
(I was reading too quick - and typing even quicker!)
when I look back (now) it was -Amber
Bob


>From: ellen smith <smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu>
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] poem
>Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 20:03:16 -0500
>
>The cat reference, Bob, has been misattributed to me.
>ellen s.
>--
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




_________________________________________________________________
Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com



From gmcvay at patriot.net  Thu Aug 15 21:23:29 2002
From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 21:23:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] poem
In-Reply-To: <3D5B69F6.25778.4EEFA7@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208152120590.27003-100000@adams.patriot.net>

On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Marcus Bales wrote:

> > Dear Marcus,
> > No offense, but boy, would you make a crummy Zen student. Stick to 
> > whatever it is you are now.
> 
Re-parse that. The "boy" was a meaningless emphasizer, as in "boy, it's 
hot outside," not the opposite of "man" or "girl" or what have you. Had I 
wished to put a personal epithet in there, it would have been something 
closer to "homey."

I did not study philosophy. I studied English. This is because I'm 
somewhat worse at math than the Enron accountants.

I am sticking to whatever it is I am... NOW. Now now now. Do you grok 
"now," homey?

Gwyn






From gmcvay at patriot.net  Thu Aug 15 21:39:33 2002
From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay)
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 2002 21:39:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"
In-Reply-To: <3D5BA7E8.29111.140F292@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208152136550.27003-100000@adams.patriot.net>

Dear Marcus,

Stanza 2 of your poem sounds rather looks-ist and age-ist. The notion that 
all women are desperate enough to be damned with faint praise is also a 
bit disturbing. Is a woman less of a poet as she gets fatter and older? 
Adrienne Rich, whom I have had the pleasure of meeting, is not quite 
36-24-36.

What's wrong with being old? It means you didn't Darwin yourself out of 
the gene pool in early life, doesn't it?

Moreover, what's inherently immoral about a woman being fat?

And as I keep wondering, where's all this anger coming from?

Gwyn



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Thu Aug 15 23:38:50 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:38:50 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208152136550.27003-100000@adams.patriot.net>
Message-ID: <007501c244d6$743118e0$59864cca@JROSS2>

I have often asked the same questions ... Thank you so much for asking them
of Marcus.

Zan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gwyn McVay" <gmcvay at patriot.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 9:39 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"


> Dear Marcus,
>
> Stanza 2 of your poem sounds rather looks-ist and age-ist. The notion that
> all women are desperate enough to be damned with faint praise is also a
> bit disturbing. Is a woman less of a poet as she gets fatter and older?
> Adrienne Rich, whom I have had the pleasure of meeting, is not quite
> 36-24-36.
>
> What's wrong with being old? It means you didn't Darwin yourself out of
> the gene pool in early life, doesn't it?
>
> Moreover, what's inherently immoral about a woman being fat?
>
> And as I keep wondering, where's all this anger coming from?
>
> Gwyn
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Thu Aug 15 23:30:40 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:30:40 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] poem
References: <F181FcfRZwz4IDjQei7000131ab@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <007401c244d6$72eba090$59864cca@JROSS2>

I second Mr. Bob!!

Zan
----- Original Message -----
From: "bob cooper" <thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 2:34 AM
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] poem


> Hey, ellen thinks all this is hissing cats. Must admit I can feel the fur
> rise too. Meee-ow! But
>
> "Marcus Bales" writes:
>
> >Well, then, on what possible *basis* can you select poems to post to
> >the list?  And why, if you are claiming, as you seem to be explicitly
> >claiming, that you have no idea whether the poems you post are
> >worthwhile or junk, should anyone else take any notice of them?
> >
> >It seems to me that you are making a *claim* every time you post a
> >poem: that this poem is worthwhile.  And if you're not making that
> >claim then you're just wasting other peoples', as well as your own,
> >time, along with whatever bandwidth it takes, to post them.
> >
> >Marcus Bales
>
> Don't worry about the basis, Hal, juss keep postin dem poems!
> Don't worry about the claims, Hal, juss keep postin dem poems!
> Why?
> What kinda question is "why?"
> Poets say, "here's one" not "why."
> So juss keep postin them poems!
> Bob
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri Aug 16 08:39:00 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 08:39:00 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"
Message-ID: <17b.d0dda15.2a8e4c64@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/15/2002 6:34:10 PM Central Daylight Time, 
smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu writes: 
> Gilbert and Sullivan, maybe.
> ellen s.
Nothing shoddy there.
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Aug 16 11:55:24 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 11:55:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Gunnar Ekelof, "Hangman"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEHMFGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Hangman

Hangman
what will you do with my arms?
Hack off this one
Hack off the other
My eyes look at you
You have raped me
I don't remember it
I thought only that it was strange
Now you are going to hack off my feet
first one
and then the other
And you see that my eyes live
you see my eyes alive
Hack a little higher on the thigh--
you see my eyes are still alive
Well 
What do you say, hangman
does this give you pleasure?

--Gunnar Ekelof

tr. Muriel Rukeyser & Leif Sjoberg


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From marcus at designerglass.com  Fri Aug 16 12:58:45 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:58:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"
In-Reply-To: <a05100306b98200924ab5@[165.190.124.251]>
References: <3D5BBCE5.12215.192F2DB@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D5CF705.27563.C0158@localhost>

> So how often did Byron write in rhyming triplets anyway?  Even in his 
> satires, his rhymes tend to be crossed, not tripled. <<

he he -- looked it up, or asked someone, did you? The tone, dear, the 
tone is Byronic and ironic (did you read it all the way through?) and 
thoroughly un-Popean.  

> Always a 
> context for satire, indeed.  But the forms for said satire do change.<<

Oh please -- satire is satire whatever form it's in, and there is no 
set form for satire in any age.  

> Byron was a notably anti-romantic poet; my guess is that you'd have 
> railed against him had he been a contemporary of yours.<<

So you didn't read it all the way through.  Well, I really didn't 
think you had.

> Gilbert and Sullivan, maybe.

Well, Gilbert, anyway.  Sullivan did the music, dear.

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From marcus at designerglass.com  Fri Aug 16 13:08:03 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:08:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"
In-Reply-To: <002c01c244ac$37f8a160$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3D5CF933.1188.14843F@localhost>

Tad Richards:
> And if we're going to be picky, the scansion falters a bit in the third
> stanza.

Yeah yeah -- male poets always say that; female poets have similar 
objections to the second.

Marcus



> > Marcus Bales wrote:
> > >
> > > DON'T WORRY, YOU'RE NOT IN THIS POEM
> > > (for Barry Spacks)
> > >
> > > Big names draw little name clusters
> > > Like wrecks draw insurance adjusters:
> > > The image their raw hatred musters
> > >         Is Manson or Dahmer;
> > > The meetings and greetings and seatings
> > > Of poets at poetry readings
> > > Remind me of sharks at their feedings --
> > >         Except sharks are calmer.
> > >
> > > The women compete for attention
> > > >From powerful people whose mention
> > > May get them promotion, a pension,
> > >         Or merely a raise;
> > > Another year fatter and older
> > > They flirt with old flames now grown colder
> > > Then fall for a younger one's bolder,
> > >         If less truthful, praise.
> > >
> > > The men snort their picayune grouses
> > > And act like low libertine louses
> > > Betraying their principles, spouses,
> > >         And significant others,
> > > Drinking to knock back the terror
> > > That there's been a terrible error
> > > And history may yet prove a fairer
> > >         Judge than their mothers.
> > >
> > > I watch the free-versers and rhymers,
> > > Idealists and down-in-the-slimers,
> > > Sweet hermits and sly social climbers
> > >         All chasing careers;
> > > Their earnestness makes me despair of them --
> > > Each likely recombinant pair of them;
> > > You'd think I'd have learned to beware of them,
> > >         Shielded by sneers.
> > >
> > > But now they have organized locally,
> > > The urban-enraged and the yokelly,
> > > Leaving the business side jokily
> > >         Under-explored;
> > > Did I, when asked for my attitude,
> > > Give it?  Or give them wide latitude?
> > > No, I accepted with gratitude
> > >         A seat on the Board.
> > >
> > > Marcus Bales
> > >
> > > marcus at designerglass.com
> > > http://www.designerglass.com
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From Jtcanaday at aol.com  Fri Aug 16 13:03:26 2002
From: Jtcanaday at aol.com (Jtcanaday at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:03:26 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet of the Month
Message-ID: <dc.1b9e162e.2a8e8a5e@aol.com>

Don't forget to stop by PoetryNet's Poet of the Month site.

<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/poetrynet/index.html">
http://members.aol.com/poetrynet/index.html</A>

This month's poet is: Suzanne Noguere

Recent poets include:

July 2002: Marcus Cafag?a
June 2002: Charles Martin
May 2002: Adrienne Su
April 2002: Jim Murphy
March 2002: T. R. Hummer
February 2002: Amy Uyematsu
January 2002: Michael Waters

Our archives go back to December 1997.

Thanks for visiting.

John Canaday


From marcus at designerglass.com  Fri Aug 16 13:15:36 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:15:36 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] poem
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208152120590.27003-100000@adams.patriot.net>
References: <3D5B69F6.25778.4EEFA7@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D5CFAF8.23753.1B6FB7@localhost>

> I did not study philosophy. I studied English. This is because I'm 
> somewhat worse at math than the Enron accountants.<<

The Enron accountants were fine at math -- it was the people who 
devised the off-book partnerships to hide the math who were at fault 
in deceiving people -- and even they were not "bad at math" -- they 
were bad at ethics.  They, too, could have benefitted from studying 
philosophy.


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From marcus at designerglass.com  Fri Aug 16 13:17:27 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:17:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208152136550.27003-100000@adams.patriot.net>
References: <3D5BA7E8.29111.140F292@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D5CFB67.12572.1D2122@localhost>

> Stanza 2 of your poem sounds rather looks-ist and age-ist. The notion that 
> all women are desperate enough to be damned with faint praise is also a 
> bit disturbing. Is a woman less of a poet as she gets fatter and older? <<

he he.  See, Richard?  Told ya.


> Adrienne Rich, whom I have had the pleasure of meeting, is not quite 
> 36-24-36.
> What's wrong with being old? It means you didn't Darwin yourself out of 
> the gene pool in early life, doesn't it?<<

It's satire, darlin' -- it's not meant to urge that one take the 
point of view that only beauty is a qualification for being a poet, 
but rather to satirize it, you see.  Jeez.  
Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From marcus at designerglass.com  Fri Aug 16 13:30:54 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 13:30:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"
In-Reply-To: <17b.d0dda15.2a8e4c64@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3D5CFE8E.23846.297113@localhost>

On 16 Aug 2002 at 8:39, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

> In a message dated 8/15/2002 6:34:10 PM Central Daylight Time, 
> smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu writes: 
> > Gilbert and Sullivan, maybe.
> > ellen s.
> Nothing shoddy there.

There Lived A King
(The Gondoliers)
WS Gilbert

There lived a King, as I've been told, 
In the wonder-working days of old, 
When hearts were twice as good as gold, 
And twenty times as mellow. 
Good-temper triumphed in his face, 
And in his heart he found a place 
For all the erring human race 
And every wretched fellow. 
When he had Rhenish wine to drink 
It made him very sad to think 
That some, at junket or at jink, 
Must be content with toddy. 

He wished all men as rich as he 
(And he was rich as rich could be), 
So to the top of every tree 
Promoted everybody. 
Now, that's the kind of King for me. 
He wished all men as rich as he, 
So to the top of every tree 
Promoted everybody! 

Lord Chancellors were cheap as sprats, 
And Bishops in their shovel hats 
Were plentiful as tabby cats-- 
In point of fact, too many. 
Ambassadors cropped up like hay, 
Prime Ministers and such as they 
Grew like asparagus in May, 
And Dukes were three a penny. 
On every side Field-Marshals gleamed, 
Small beer were Lords-Lieutenant deemed, 
With Admirals the ocean teemed 
All round his wide dominions. 

And Party Leaders you might meet 
In twos and threes in every street 
Maintaining, with no little heat, 
Their various opinions. 
Now that's a sight you couldn't beat-- 
Two Party Leaders in each street 
Maintaining, with no little heat, 
Their various opinions. 

That King, although no one denies 
His heart was of abnormal size, 
Yet he'd have acted otherwise 
If he had been acuter. 
The end is easily foretold, 
When every blessed thing you hold 
Is made of silver, or of gold, 
You long for simple pewter. 
When you have nothing else to wear 
But cloth of gold and satins rare, 
For cloth of gold you cease to care-- 
Up goes the price of shoddy. 

In short, whoever you may be, 
To this conclusion you'll agree, 
When every one is somebodee, 
Then no one's anybody! 
Now that's as plain as plain can be, 
To this conclusion we agree-- 
When every one is somebodee, 
Then no one's anybody! 
 

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu  Fri Aug 16 17:13:16 2002
From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:13:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"
In-Reply-To: <3D5CF705.27563.C0158@localhost>
References: <3D5BBCE5.12215.192F2DB@localhost>
 <3D5CF705.27563.C0158@localhost>
Message-ID: <a05100300b9831a8a51b6@[165.190.124.251]>

Marcus:  I wish to call attention to the way you lace your responses 
with the epithet, "dear."  Richard Cranium, my friend, adieu.  Go 
polish doorknobs.  I am sick of you.
ellen s.
-- 
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From jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 16 15:39:36 2002
From: jnewberry1974 at yahoo.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 12:39:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others:  Mark Jarman "Song of Roland"
In-Reply-To: <a05100300b9831a8a51b6@[165.190.124.251]>
Message-ID: <20020816193936.72393.qmail@web13002.mail.yahoo.com>


A poem by Mark Jarman from Poetry Daily:

 

Song of Roland

Mark Jarman

Roland was a Paladin of Charlemagne,
And he was my mother's cousin. The Paladin
Served Charlemagne and died, blowing his horn.
The cousin spent a day with her at the fair
Over sixty years ago. The great Paladin
Enjoys an epic named after him.
The cousin is remembered as a big kid
Who never grew up. His first wife left him,
Taking only the pillows from the pool furniture.
Roland the epic hero was betrayed
By a fellow Paladin. Roland the cousin bought
A box of face powder for his younger cousin,
And on the octopus, which they had ridden
So often the owner let them ride for free,
He convinced her to open up the box.
Roland's horn resounds through ages
Of high school lit classes. There's a cloud
The carnie thinks is an explosion and stops
His ride, and banishes the powdered laughing children,
Roland, the young hero, and my mother
Creamy with dust in a new blue coat.
Roland's song comes down from the Pyrenees.
His namesake went back to school, after his wife left,
Became a mining engineer, worked in North Dakota,
Married again, learned after the death of his parents
He'd been adopted, was devastated, and died
In his late 30s of congenital heart failure. He lives on, though.
An old woman remembers that day at the fair
And as much of his life and fate as any of us
Is likely to have immortalized in song.

 


---------------------------------
Do You Yahoo!?
HotJobs, a Yahoo! service - Search Thousands of New Jobs
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From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu  Fri Aug 16 17:17:13 2002
From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:17:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"
In-Reply-To: <3D5CFE8E.23846.297113@localhost>
References: <3D5CFE8E.23846.297113@localhost>
Message-ID: <a05100301b9831bd09e51@[165.190.124.251]>

okedokethen. I'll look forward then, to its appearance on the light 
opera circuit.  My only regret is that I'm not old enough (yet) to 
get a senior citizen discount.  But I'll keep sniffing around for 
that pension.
ellen s.
-- 


From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu  Fri Aug 16 18:31:49 2002
From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 17:31:49 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"
Message-ID: <a05100300b9832ba5568b@[165.190.124.251]>

Marcus and others on the list:
I wish to apologize for the name-calling below.  You, Marcus, do make 
me angry, but I don't believe that name-calling is an appropriate 
response.  Our country is in great danger; our leadership risks 
escalating that danger.  When I put our differences into this 
perspective, I see this business of sniping as kind of beside the 
point.  There are people who will think that they can write seemingly 
senseless rhythmic prose forever; there are people who think they can 
write in rhyming triplets forever.  Does such a claim mean anything 
by itself?  I can clean toilets forever; does that devalue the work 
of janitors?  Again, I am sorry for the name-calling.
ellen s.


Marcus:  I wish to call attention to the way you lace your responses 
with the epithet, "dear."  Richard Cranium, my friend, adieu.  Go 
polish doorknobs.  I am sick of you.
ellen s.
-- 
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From simon at ipfw.edu  Fri Aug 16 17:13:07 2002
From: simon at ipfw.edu (Beth Simon)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 16:13:07 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"
Message-ID: <sd5d2499.061@gw.ipfw.edu>

I would like to suggest, indeed, i am suggesting, that for today's
participation in the poet's game, each one on the list call at least one
of your representatives (in the broadest sense) and ask that this demand
for desolation be halted.

The U.S. has already built and supplied the new 45 billion airport in
Qatar from which to start the devastation, yes, but it hasn't started. 

Today's act of poetry: leaving a voice message of plain speech.

beth


From gmcvay at patriot.net  Fri Aug 16 18:00:46 2002
From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 18:00:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"
In-Reply-To: <3D5CFB67.12572.1D2122@localhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208161756260.697-100000@adams.patriot.net>

> It's satire, darlin' -- it's not meant to urge that one take the 
> point of view that only beauty is a qualification for being a poet, 
> but rather to satirize it, you see.  Jeez.  

It doesn't come off that way. It comes off as authorial mocking. You don't 
even engage the female brain or pattern of speech, as you do with the male 
poets. You go straight under the clothes and argue that women poets, as 
they get older, become sexually desperate and spend a lot of time trying 
to remedy this.

I still want to know what the hell is wrong with fat, old women poets 
being interested in sex, and why this puts them in a category of the 
loathsome.

Gwyn



From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Fri Aug 16 18:47:51 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 2002 15:47:51 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"
References: <sd5d2499.061@gw.ipfw.edu>
Message-ID: <3D5D8117.E898BA36@earthlink.net>

Beth Simon wrote:
> 
> I would like to suggest, indeed, i am suggesting, that for today's
> participation in the poet's game, each one on the list call at least one
> of your representatives (in the broadest sense) and ask that this demand
> for desolation be halted.
> 
> The U.S. has already built and supplied the new 45 billion airport in
> Qatar from which to start the devastation, yes, but it hasn't started.
> 
> Today's act of poetry: leaving a voice message of plain speech.

Absolutely.  Earlier this week, in a fit of perversity, I watched "Wag
The Dog" and "Thirteen Days" (about the Cuban missle crisis).  Together,
they reverberated with the current madness like a chain of bells in a belfry.

- Jim


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Aug 17 00:29:02 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 00:29:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"
References: <sd5d2499.061@gw.ipfw.edu> <3D5D8117.E898BA36@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <00d901c245a6$9e6fa600$fca8fea9@j1c1k6>

> Beth Simon wrote:
> >
> > I would like to suggest, indeed, i am suggesting, that for today's
> > participation in the poet's game, each one on the list call at least one
> > of your representatives (in the broadest sense) and ask that this demand
> > for desolation be halted.
> >
> > The U.S. has already built and supplied the new 45 billion airport in
> > Qatar from which to start the devastation, yes, but it hasn't started.
> >
> > Today's act of poetry: leaving a voice message of plain speech.

I suggest we find a political discussion newsgroup as active as the poetics
newsgroup and start some threads on poetry at it.

--Bob G.



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Sat Aug 17 02:04:35 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 14:04:35 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"
References: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208161756260.697-100000@adams.patriot.net>
Message-ID: <007901c245b3$fa8555e0$62864cca@JROSS2>

I'd like to know this, too!!  One of my favourite poets, Dorothy Hewett
(Australian), is in her seventies, fat, and one of the sexiest women (and
very much interested in having sex) I know of at any age.  I wouldn't call
her desperate, either -- she has many admirers.

Zan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gwyn McVay" <gmcvay at patriot.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2002 6:00 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"


> > It's satire, darlin' -- it's not meant to urge that one take the
> > point of view that only beauty is a qualification for being a poet,
> > but rather to satirize it, you see.  Jeez.
>
> It doesn't come off that way. It comes off as authorial mocking. You don't
> even engage the female brain or pattern of speech, as you do with the male
> poets. You go straight under the clothes and argue that women poets, as
> they get older, become sexually desperate and spend a lot of time trying
> to remedy this.
>
> I still want to know what the hell is wrong with fat, old women poets
> being interested in sex, and why this puts them in a category of the
> loathsome.
>
> Gwyn
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From marcus at designerglass.com  Sat Aug 17 10:27:23 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 10:27:23 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208161756260.697-100000@adams.patriot.net>
References: <3D5CFB67.12572.1D2122@localhost>
Message-ID: <3D5E250B.6532.11B5DC@localhost>

Marcus:
> > It's satire, darlin' -- it's not meant to urge that one take the 
> > point of view that only beauty is a qualification for being a poet, 
> > but rather to satirize it, you see.  Jeez.  

Gwyn: 
> It doesn't come off that way. It comes off as authorial mocking.<<

I mock a lot of different people for different things in that poem, 
including myself.  Perhaps you, too, simply didn't read it all the 
way through.

Gwyn: 
> I still want to know what the hell is wrong with fat, old women poets 
> being interested in sex, and why this puts them in a category of the 
> loathsome.<<

There's nothing wrong with it -- though it is just as mockable a 
behavior at poetry readings or conferences as the behavior of men who 
"betray their principles, spouses, and significant others".  And 
neither is is loathsome -- it's simply mockable.  One wonders why you 
think that being a fat old woman poet is more "loathsome" than 
"betraying their principles, spouses, and significant others", since 
the latter is volitional activity and being old and fat and female is 
nothing like as volitional. It seems to me that if anything is mocked 
as loathsome it is the male, not the female, behavior.  But of 
course, once again, lots is mocked, including the narrator's own 
behavior.  



Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From marcus at designerglass.com  Sat Aug 17 10:27:23 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 10:27:23 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"
In-Reply-To: <a05100300b9832ba5568b@[165.190.124.251]>
Message-ID: <3D5E250B.25419.11B4AB@localhost>

ellens:
> ... Marcus:  I wish to call attention to the way you lace your 
> responses with the epithet, "dear."

It's a quick easy, and dismissive, way to respond to your dismissive 
anger at the very notion that anyone would dare to do other than as 
you do. But I do it ironically, mockingly, not in earnest or in 
anger.

Did you ever read the poem all the way through to see how the 
narrator mocks even him/herself at the end?


. 


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From marcus at designerglass.com  Sat Aug 17 10:38:24 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 10:38:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"
In-Reply-To: <a05100300b9832ba5568b@[165.190.124.251]>
Message-ID: <3D5E27A0.20564.1BCAA3@localhost>

> Marcus and others on the list:
> I wish to apologize for the name-calling below....<<

And then she repeats it.  Paralipsis is no more attractive than the 
original name-calling, though.  

I wish to apologize for Ellen being a nasty asshole, though of course 
I'd certainly never call her one.

he he he




Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From elemenope at icubed.com  Sat Aug 17 13:27:33 2002
From: elemenope at icubed.com (ELEMENOPE Productions)
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 01:27:33 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Anti The RadLib Anti Anti Saddam Line
In-Reply-To: <200208171601.g7HG1Q625811@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200208171601.g7HG1Q625811@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100300b984321385b7@[204.215.201.11]>

It's always one sided with the RadLibs as they assume that art and 
poetry must perforce be their political tool of official "We're the 
humans and they're NOT!" propaganda.

It's always twisted by the RadLibs all the way from Naropa to 
NBC/ABC/PBS/NBC/NY Times/ACLU/Nation et al who haven't the gumption 
to stand up to Saddam or any T-rist anywhere who'd as soon decapitate 
these RadLibs after accepting their apologies for all that in history 
has deluded them.

Always.  And all ways of Slander, yes, are the wiles of the RadLibs, 
claiming a bizarre powerlessness as they advance their idealisms in 
every academy and media in which they rule.

The Republicans are for the Radlibs
What the Jews are for the NaziTheoKraticJihadIslamicistMonsters.

And you're the Racist if you call me one.

I stand with the President.  And against all and every one of you, if 
it comes to that.

Camille Paglia has abandoned the RadLib ship.

Don't debate me, debate Anne Coulter.  Debate Patrick Henry.

Poetry is not the tool of any Idealism, it stands, if it can, as a 
witness in history.  And let the sharpest eye and tongue tell the 
tale to the people, if you can!

And, mark this: as the next election unfolds, RadLibs lose big.


>
>
>Message: 1
>From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"
>Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 00:29:02 -0400
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>>  Beth Simon wrote:
>>  >
>>  > I would like to suggest, indeed, i am suggesting, that for today's
>>  > participation in the poet's game, each one on the list call at least one
>>  > of your representatives (in the broadest sense) and ask that this demand
>>  > for desolation be halted.
>>  >
>>  > The U.S. has already built and supplied the new 45 billion airport in
>>  > Qatar from which to start the devastation, yes, but it hasn't started.
>>  >
>>  > Today's act of poetry: leaving a voice message of plain speech.
>
>I suggest we find a political discussion newsgroup as active as the poetics
>newsgroup and start some threads on poetry at it.
>
>--Bob G.
>

-- 


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Aug 17 13:30:53 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 13:30:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"
References: <3D5CFE8E.23846.297113@localhost>
Message-ID: <006a01c24613$d7878120$3ef5fea9@j1c1k6>

Amusing rhyme, Marcus, but how in the world do you defned the superfluous
"And every wretched fellow?"

--Bob G.



From gmcvay at patriot.net  Sat Aug 17 14:20:41 2002
From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay)
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 2002 14:20:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Anti The RadLib Anti Anti Saddam Line
In-Reply-To: <a05100300b984321385b7@[204.215.201.11]>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.44.0208171418390.20543-100000@adams.patriot.net>

> Don't debate me, debate Anne Coulter.  Debate Patrick Henry.
> 
Senator, I studied Patrick Henry. Patrick Henry is, in the historical 
sense, a friend of mine. And honey, Ann Coulter, bless her empty little 
head, ain't no Patrick Henry.


Gwyn (Actually, the post I am responding to was a satire, right? Please? 
Please? Does the poster not understand that MANY REPUBLICANS are naming 
valid reasons not to go jump on Saddam right at this particular time?)



From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Sun Aug 18 12:44:36 2002
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 11:44:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] FW: SOMETHING ROTTEN IN KINGLSEY-TUFTS
Message-ID: <200208181643.g7IGhZL08914@mx1.mx.voyager.net>

This anonymous note just appeared in my in-box.  I'm wondering if anyone
else received it, or if anyone knows more about the sender or situation?

Is this an internet hoax?
========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------
From: GuyJoyce <GuyJ at attbi.com>
To: <grahamd at mail.ripon.edu>
Subject: SOMETHING ROTTEN IN KINGLSEY-TUFTS
Date: Sun, Aug 18, 2002, 9:03 AM


or immediate release:

KINGLSLEY-TUFTS ACCUSED OF DECEPTIVE PRACTICES IN 2000 AND 2001 COMPETITION
BY SCREENING JUDGE


Poetry prizes, now numbering in 6 figures, go unscrutinized by the general
public. But one former California-based screening judge for Kingsley-Tufts
awards, who wishes to remain anonymous, has complained that after hours of
painstaking work ?reading hundreds of manuscripts? to make the final
selections?and contrary to statements that "no more than 50 finalists will
be forwarded to the final judges"?that the finalists for the years 2000 and
2001 were selected OUTSIDE those manuscripts selected as finalists to
satisfy the whims of celebrated judges and the chair of the final committee.
?It?s patently unfair, and insulting? the anonymous source stated, making
the accusation that after hours of discussion and reading the screening list
of finalists is ignored in favor of personal picks on the part of certain
judges who have formed a cabal within the selection process. But who
investigates awards like these? And who cares about poetry in the second
place?


FYI:GJProductions 


From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Sun Aug 18 13:26:56 2002
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 13:26:56 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] FW: SOMETHING ROTTEN IN KINGLSEY-TUFTS
Message-ID: <6f.2c41b165.2a9132e0@aol.com>

David, I got one, too. Never heard of Guy Joyce. 

<<But one former California-based screening judge for Kingsley-Tufts awards, 
who wishes to remain anonymous. . .>> 

Why? The screening judge wants to screen again? Hard to credit anonymous 
sources, though you gotta admit, knowing that this screener was 
*California-based* adds a lot to the argment. Come out, come out, whoever you 
are.

Jeffrey Levine,
Connecticut based



In a message dated 8/18/2002 12:44:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu writes:


> This anonymous note just appeared in my in-box.  I'm wondering if anyone
> else received it, or if anyone knows more about the sender or situation?
> 
> Is this an internet hoax?
> ========================================
> David Graham
> 

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From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Sun Aug 18 13:41:13 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 10:41:13 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] FW: SOMETHING ROTTEN IN KINGLSEY-TUFTS
References: <200208181643.g7IGhZL08914@mx1.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <3D5FDC39.1E7749D0@earthlink.net>

Seems I'm not on this guy's mailing list.  First I've heard of this one,
though.  The suspicion, on the other hand, is an old one.

- Jim, Arizona-based and scrinching away from the border that touches California

David Graham wrote:
> 
> This anonymous note just appeared in my in-box.  I'm wondering if anyone
> else received it, or if anyone knows more about the sender or situation?
> 
> Is this an internet hoax?
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ========================================
> 
> ----------
> From: GuyJoyce <GuyJ at attbi.com>
> To: <grahamd at mail.ripon.edu>
> Subject: SOMETHING ROTTEN IN KINGLSEY-TUFTS
> Date: Sun, Aug 18, 2002, 9:03 AM
> 
> or immediate release:
> 
> KINGLSLEY-TUFTS ACCUSED OF DECEPTIVE PRACTICES IN 2000 AND 2001 COMPETITION
> BY SCREENING JUDGE
> 
> Poetry prizes, now numbering in 6 figures, go unscrutinized by the general
> public. But one former California-based screening judge for Kingsley-Tufts
> awards, who wishes to remain anonymous, has complained that after hours of
> painstaking work ?reading hundreds of manuscripts1 to make the final
> selections?and contrary to statements that "no more than 50 finalists will
> be forwarded to the final judges"?that the finalists for the years 2000 and
> 2001 were selected OUTSIDE those manuscripts selected as finalists to
> satisfy the whims of celebrated judges and the chair of the final committee.
> ?It1s patently unfair, and insulting1 the anonymous source stated, making
> the accusation that after hours of discussion and reading the screening list
> of finalists is ignored in favor of personal picks on the part of certain
> judges who have formed a cabal within the selection process. But who
> investigates awards like these? And who cares about poetry in the second
> place?
> 
> FYI:GJProductions
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From simon at ipfw.edu  Sun Aug 18 18:22:28 2002
From: simon at ipfw.edu (Beth Simon)
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 17:22:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] we write in the dark
Message-ID: <sd5fd7d8.024@gw.ipfw.edu>

"We write in the dark."

Does anyone know where this quote, which, I think Henry James wrote,
occurs?

please backchannel

thanks

beth


From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu  Sun Aug 18 18:41:47 2002
From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Prentiss, Amber)
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 18:41:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Posterity
Message-ID: <B34CC5874D6F954E9B587FC833F4EDE0251378@ness.agnesscott.edu>

I've been thinking of posterity for a while now. (For no particular reason,
as I have no reason as of yet to believe that I will be in it unless I give
birth.) But it comes up on the list occasionally, so I thought I'd muse
aloud today. 

I think it is generally assumed that only a handful of people will be lucky
enough to go into literary history and the grubby little hands of 9th
graders the English-speaking world over. After all, we only have previous
literary history to base this assumption on, and, let's face it, during most
of human history, literacy wasn't very widespread. (Neither, for that
matter, was paper.) Since Chaucer's day, there have been (in no particular
order): the printing press, mass education (spawning mass literacy), a
population boom, the growth of a humongous publishing machine, and the
spread of the language to places far, far away from an island in the
Atlantic. There's just a lot of people, a lot of writers, and a lot of
books. Did I mention the spread of individualism? There's 6 billion+ humans,
which means that, especially in literature of a dominant language, there is
a multitude of points of view, styles, literary movements of the week, etc.
It seems unlikely to me that the whole of it will be distilled--if it even
can be distilled (if it could ever have been truly distilled)--into a
McGraw-Hill textbook. What do you think will happen to the academic field of
English lit in the future?

-Amber, peeking out into the Internet to see if it's okay now.


From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Aug 18 20:31:13 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 20:31:13 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] FW: SOMETHING ROTTEN IN KINGLSEY-TUFTS
Message-ID: <18d.ca51fb4.2a919651@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/18/02 1:40:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes:

> The suspicion, on the other hand, is an old one.

I won't go into the details...but I've firsthand knowledge
of the screener selected manuscripts being "added to"
by an eminent poet's personal pick from the leftover pile.
I'm sure it happens with some regularity. 
Finnegan


From gudding at olemiss.edu  Sun Aug 18 21:47:41 2002
From: gudding at olemiss.edu (Gudding)
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 20:47:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] we write in the dark
In-Reply-To: <sd5fd7d8.024@gw.ipfw.edu>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20020818204548.029f0b10@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu>

I don't know, Beth, but this reminds me of I think James Thurber's comment: 
"Outside of a dog a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it is too 
dark to read."

Gabe

(Was this Thurber or Nash? Or was it WC Fields?)

At 05:22 PM 8/18/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>"We write in the dark."
>
>Does anyone know where this quote, which, I think Henry James wrote,
>occurs?
>
>please backchannel
>
>thanks
>
>beth
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Sun Aug 18 22:03:59 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 10:03:59 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] FW: SOMETHING ROTTEN IN KINGLSEY-TUFTS
References: <18d.ca51fb4.2a919651@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002101c24724$b163d5e0$5a864cca@JROSS2>

I know for a fact that it happens in Australia.  It works the other way, as
well: people who are running the contest (but don't have the first idea
about poetry), screen out material that they don't like before the judges
get a peek.  And then there's the 'invitation' of certain writers who may
not have submitted to do so.  And one thing that is certainly silly as far
as I'm concerned is the common practice here of not having the name of the
entrant on the submission.  Any judge who knows their stuff is quite able to
recognise the author of any piece -- at least it's true in this country
where there aren't too many decent poets about.

Zan

----- Original Message -----
From: <JforJames at aol.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 8:31 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] FW: SOMETHING ROTTEN IN KINGLSEY-TUFTS


> In a message dated 8/18/02 1:40:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes:
>
> > The suspicion, on the other hand, is an old one.
>
> I won't go into the details...but I've firsthand knowledge
> of the screener selected manuscripts being "added to"
> by an eminent poet's personal pick from the leftover pile.
> I'm sure it happens with some regularity.
> Finnegan
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From Cadaly at aol.com  Sun Aug 18 22:19:35 2002
From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 2002 22:19:35 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] FW: SOMETHING ROTTEN IN KINGLSEY-TUFTS
Message-ID: <48BB25E3.403AF0C8.00045B92@aol.com>

> > The suspicion, on the other hand, is an old one.
> 
> I won't go into the details...but I've firsthand knowledge
> of the screener selected manuscripts being "added to"
> by an eminent poet's personal pick from the leftover pile.
> I'm sure it happens with some regularity. 

I know a CA-based screener, but there is more than one.  The one I know was ecstatic about the opportunity to read so many incredible ms. the screener might not otherwise have read.

I was not under the impression the Kingsley-Tufts were blind; it has seemed that the richer prize of the two goes to poets known, and known well, by the judges.

It is a common practice -- Auden picked Ashbery for the Yale Younger by rejecting all ms., then soliciting two, from O'Hara and Ashbery.

Be well,
Catherine Daly
cadaly at pacbell.net



From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Sun Aug 18 22:22:13 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 10:22:13 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Zan re Posterity
References: <B34CC5874D6F954E9B587FC833F4EDE0251378@ness.agnesscott.edu>
Message-ID: <005b01c24727$418b2590$5a864cca@JROSS2>

If what is happening in Australia is any indication, English Lit. as a field
is a goner.  It appears "Communication and Media" are the buzz, so posterity
isn't really a consideration as the enormous amount of text being generated
daily over-rides any concept of 'permanence'/posterity.

Oh, and one other thing: we now have proof positive that 1 million monkeys
pounding away on keyboards will not eventually produce a work of
Shakespeare.

Zan

----- Original Message -----
From: "Prentiss, Amber" <aprentiss at agnesscott.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2002 6:41 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Posterity


> I've been thinking of posterity for a while now. (For no particular
reason,
> as I have no reason as of yet to believe that I will be in it unless I
give
> birth.) But it comes up on the list occasionally, so I thought I'd muse
> aloud today.
>
> I think it is generally assumed that only a handful of people will be
lucky
> enough to go into literary history and the grubby little hands of 9th
> graders the English-speaking world over. After all, we only have previous
> literary history to base this assumption on, and, let's face it, during
most
> of human history, literacy wasn't very widespread. (Neither, for that
> matter, was paper.) Since Chaucer's day, there have been (in no particular
> order): the printing press, mass education (spawning mass literacy), a
> population boom, the growth of a humongous publishing machine, and the
> spread of the language to places far, far away from an island in the
> Atlantic. There's just a lot of people, a lot of writers, and a lot of
> books. Did I mention the spread of individualism? There's 6 billion+
humans,
> which means that, especially in literature of a dominant language, there
is
> a multitude of points of view, styles, literary movements of the week,
etc.
> It seems unlikely to me that the whole of it will be distilled--if it even
> can be distilled (if it could ever have been truly distilled)--into a
> McGraw-Hill textbook. What do you think will happen to the academic field
of
> English lit in the future?
>
> -Amber, peeking out into the Internet to see if it's okay now.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Mon Aug 19 09:35:59 2002
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 09:35:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"
References: <3D5CF933.1188.14843F@localhost>
Message-ID: <002101c24785$5b74d100$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

Scansion is scansion; content doesn't enter into the equation.

SITUATIONS
pub date August 1
to order - or for more info
http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards/situations.html


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Marcus Bales" <marcus at designerglass.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"


> Tad Richards:
> > And if we're going to be picky, the scansion falters a bit in the third
> > stanza.
> 
> Yeah yeah -- male poets always say that; female poets have similar 
> objections to the second.
> 
> Marcus
> 
> 
> 
> > > Marcus Bales wrote:
> > > >
> > > > DON'T WORRY, YOU'RE NOT IN THIS POEM
> > > > (for Barry Spacks)
> > > >
> > > > Big names draw little name clusters
> > > > Like wrecks draw insurance adjusters:
> > > > The image their raw hatred musters
> > > >         Is Manson or Dahmer;
> > > > The meetings and greetings and seatings
> > > > Of poets at poetry readings
> > > > Remind me of sharks at their feedings --
> > > >         Except sharks are calmer.
> > > >
> > > > The women compete for attention
> > > > >From powerful people whose mention
> > > > May get them promotion, a pension,
> > > >         Or merely a raise;
> > > > Another year fatter and older
> > > > They flirt with old flames now grown colder
> > > > Then fall for a younger one's bolder,
> > > >         If less truthful, praise.
> > > >
> > > > The men snort their picayune grouses
> > > > And act like low libertine louses
> > > > Betraying their principles, spouses,
> > > >         And significant others,
> > > > Drinking to knock back the terror
> > > > That there's been a terrible error
> > > > And history may yet prove a fairer
> > > >         Judge than their mothers.
> > > >
> > > > I watch the free-versers and rhymers,
> > > > Idealists and down-in-the-slimers,
> > > > Sweet hermits and sly social climbers
> > > >         All chasing careers;
> > > > Their earnestness makes me despair of them --
> > > > Each likely recombinant pair of them;
> > > > You'd think I'd have learned to beware of them,
> > > >         Shielded by sneers.
> > > >
> > > > But now they have organized locally,
> > > > The urban-enraged and the yokelly,
> > > > Leaving the business side jokily
> > > >         Under-explored;
> > > > Did I, when asked for my attitude,
> > > > Give it?  Or give them wide latitude?
> > > > No, I accepted with gratitude
> > > >         A seat on the Board.
> > > >
> > > > Marcus Bales
> > > >
> > > > marcus at designerglass.com
> > > > http://www.designerglass.com
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> Marcus Bales
> 
> marcus at designerglass.com
> http://www.designerglass.com
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Aug 19 10:34:52 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 10:34:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Poet's Game"
In-Reply-To: <006a01c24613$d7878120$3ef5fea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <3D60C9CC.13756.161C0C@localhost>

On 17 Aug 2002 at 13:30, Bob Grumman wrote:
> Amusing rhyme, Marcus, but how in the world do you defned the superfluous
> "And every wretched fellow?"
> --Bob G.

By pointing out that I didn't write it; I only quoted it.  Even Homer 
nods, and WS Gilbert, too.

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Aug 19 11:12:16 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:12:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] FW: SOMETHING ROTTEN IN KINGLSEY-TUFTS
In-Reply-To: <18d.ca51fb4.2a919651@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D60D290.22528.385BC3@localhost>

> jvcervantes at earthlink.net writes:
> > The suspicion, on the other hand, is an old one.

> Finnegan
> I won't go into the details...but I've firsthand knowledge
> of the screener selected manuscripts being "added to"
> by an eminent poet's personal pick from the leftover pile.
> I'm sure it happens with some regularity. 

Yes -- isn't that the trouble, though?  No one ever goes into the 
details and so it continues to happen without penalty.

I suppose the problem is that if one rats out one contest's bad 
practices one is never asked to judge another?



Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Aug 19 11:28:01 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 11:28:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] we write in the dark
In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20020818204548.029f0b10@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu>
References: <sd5fd7d8.024@gw.ipfw.edu>
Message-ID: <3D60D641.31848.46C50B@localhost>

> I don't know, Beth, but this reminds me of I think James Thurber's comment: 
> "Outside of a dog a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it is too 
> dark to read."
> Gabe
> (Was this Thurber or Nash? Or was it WC Fields?)

Groucho Marx.

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU  Mon Aug 19 11:26:39 2002
From: GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU (Graham, David)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 10:26:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] SOMETHING ROTTEN
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86E83@mail.ripon.edu>

I also know of a few cases where writers sent in manuscripts in good faith,
only to have a judge pick a friend or former student who was not necessarily
in the screened pile.  

Noxious as such incidents are, though, I have to say that I have firsthand
knowledge (both as a screener and a submitter) of contests that are run on
the up-and-up.  I'm not sure what percentage of contests are rotten, and the
nature of things seems to ensure that most such cases will remain anecdotal
at best.  

It's probably also worth noting that contest organizers don't, as a rule,
set up rotten contests.  They want fairness.  It's more often the individual
judges who screw things up.
========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================




> > Finnegan
> > I won't go into the details...but I've firsthand knowledge
> > of the screener selected manuscripts being "added to"
> > by an eminent poet's personal pick from the leftover pile.
> > I'm sure it happens with some regularity. 
> 
> Yes -- isn't that the trouble, though?  No one ever goes into the 
> details and so it continues to happen without penalty.
> 
> I suppose the problem is that if one rats out one contest's bad 
> practices one is never asked to judge another?
> Marcus Bales
> 


From GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU  Mon Aug 19 11:52:09 2002
From: GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU (Graham, David)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 10:52:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Posterity
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86E85@mail.ripon.edu>

	Amber asks, "What do you think will happen to the academic field of
> English lit in the future?"
> 
Your guess is as good as mine, but we do know that in the past couple-three
decades it's already changed enormously, for many of the reasons Amber
cites.  When I teach my American Lit survey, I often bring in a textbook
from my own college days (when was that?  let's just say that Nixon was
President then. . . ).  

The book's title is something like The Major American Writers, and students
are often a little surprised, I'm happy to say, to learn that the major
writers were almost all white males from New England.  No women or persons
of color, certainly.  

My students simply come in with radically different expectations than I did,
thank goodness.  

In college I took a racy-for-the-times freshman seminar called (I am not
making this up) "Liberated Ladies of Literature."  Taught by a female prof,
this was my college's version of a feminist course.  These liberated ladies
turned out to be folks like Madame Bovary and Rosalind from *As You Like
It*.  No women authors were involved.  

For the most part, the canon-busting that's been going on in recent decades
is a very good thing, I believe.  There are still pockets of stiff
opposition, of course.  But as someone once said (who?), if you have the
future for an enemy you will always lose.


========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


> ----------
> From: 	Prentiss, Amber
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Sunday, August 18, 2002 5:41 PM
> To: 	'new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu'
> Subject: 	[New-Poetry] Posterity
> 
> I've been thinking of posterity for a while now. (For no particular
> reason,
> as I have no reason as of yet to believe that I will be in it unless I
> give
> birth.) But it comes up on the list occasionally, so I thought I'd muse
> aloud today. 
> 
> I think it is generally assumed that only a handful of people will be
> lucky
> enough to go into literary history and the grubby little hands of 9th
> graders the English-speaking world over. After all, we only have previous
> literary history to base this assumption on, and, let's face it, during
> most
> of human history, literacy wasn't very widespread. (Neither, for that
> matter, was paper.) Since Chaucer's day, there have been (in no particular
> order): the printing press, mass education (spawning mass literacy), a
> population boom, the growth of a humongous publishing machine, and the
> spread of the language to places far, far away from an island in the
> Atlantic. There's just a lot of people, a lot of writers, and a lot of
> books. Did I mention the spread of individualism? There's 6 billion+
> humans,
> which means that, especially in literature of a dominant language, there
> is
> a multitude of points of view, styles, literary movements of the week,
> etc.
> It seems unlikely to me that the whole of it will be distilled--if it even
> can be distilled (if it could ever have been truly distilled)--into a
> McGraw-Hill textbook. What do you think will happen to the academic field
> of
> English lit in the future?
> 
> -Amber, peeking out into the Internet to see if it's okay now.
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 


From rloden at concentric.net  Mon Aug 19 12:19:04 2002
From: rloden at concentric.net (Rachel Loden)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 09:19:04 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] we write in the dark
In-Reply-To: <sd5fd7d8.024@gw.ipfw.edu>
Message-ID: <000301c2479c$26e27200$19000140@Glasscastle>

Hi Beth,

Do you mean "We work in the dark-we do what we can-we give what we have.
Our doubt is our passion, and our passion is our task. The rest is the
madness of art."

But Gabe channeling Groucho is a lot more fun, no?

Rachel

> "We write in the dark."
> 
> Does anyone know where this quote, which, I think Henry James 
> wrote, occurs?




From MillB at aol.com  Mon Aug 19 12:25:08 2002
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 12:25:08 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] we write in the dark
Message-ID: <44.2496dc32.2a9275e4@aol.com>

Rachel:

Just thought I'd check in and say hello when I saw your posting on the 
newsgroup.   I just sent in my application for PEN. . .resisted before, 
thought I'd try to get out and about more. . .in the writing world. . . 

Millicent


From DICK at watson.ibm.com  Mon Aug 19 13:44:02 2002
From: DICK at watson.ibm.com (DICK at watson.ibm.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 02 13:44:02 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] canon-busting
Message-ID: <200208191753.g7JHrmV67226@sp1n293en1.watson.ibm.com>

David Graham, often a moderate and intelligent commentator,
unfortunately wrote
>>For the most part, the canon-busting that's been going on in recent decades
>>is a very good thing, I believe.  There are still pockets of stiff
>>opposition, of course.  But as someone once said (who?), if you have the
>>future for an enemy you will always lose.

Sigh.  This sort of remark explains why the academies, and
particularly English depts., are held in such low repute.
I would hope kids are sent to school to be educated,
not pandered to. Neal Bowers' essay in the July Poetry
says it much better than I could hope to, and I recommend
it to all.

Richard


From GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU  Mon Aug 19 14:00:32 2002
From: GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU (Graham, David)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:00:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] canon-busting
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86E88@mail.ripon.edu>

Er, Richard, are you meaning to suggest that we *should* be teaching nothing
but Caucasian New Englanders in our American Literature classes?

That was the context in which I praised the canon's evolution in recent
decades.  

Personally, I think Kate Chopin and Emily Dickinson and Frederick Douglass
are well worth studying & teaching.  "Pandering" is an unfortunately
broad-brush to use on such authors, no?
========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:  
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


> ----------
> From: 	DICK at watson.ibm.com
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Monday, August 19, 2002 12:44 PM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	[New-Poetry] canon-busting
> 
> David Graham, often a moderate and intelligent commentator,
> unfortunately wrote
> >>For the most part, the canon-busting that's been going on in recent
> decades
> >>is a very good thing, I believe.  There are still pockets of stiff
> >>opposition, of course.  But as someone once said (who?), if you have the
> >>future for an enemy you will always lose.
> 
> Sigh.  This sort of remark explains why the academies, and
> particularly English depts., are held in such low repute.
> I would hope kids are sent to school to be educated,
> not pandered to. Neal Bowers' essay in the July Poetry
> says it much better than I could hope to, and I recommend
> it to all.
> 
> Richard
> 


From simon at ipfw.edu  Mon Aug 19 14:31:44 2002
From: simon at ipfw.edu (Beth Simon)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 13:31:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] we write in the dark
Message-ID: <sd60f363.047@gw.ipfw.edu>

Hey, Hi Rachel,

I would like to mean that! much more than the way I had it. Gawd, that
is gorgeous. (and nice to know the Marx version!)

I was going to use the former for the first meeting of my fiction
workshop, but now I think I'll use both.

thanks!

b

So, is this James? or who? and from where?

>>> rloden at concentric.net 08/19/02 11:20 AM >>>
Hi Beth,

Do you mean "We work in the dark-we do what we can-we give what we have.
Our doubt is our passion, and our passion is our task. The rest is the
madness of art."

But Gabe channeling Groucho is a lot more fun, no?

Rachel

> "We write in the dark."
> 
> Does anyone know where this quote, which, I think Henry James 
> wrote, occurs?


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From simon at ipfw.edu  Mon Aug 19 16:19:30 2002
From: simon at ipfw.edu (Beth Simon)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:19:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] suffer the little children
Message-ID: <sd610c91.017@gw.ipfw.edu>

sorry for multiple posting, but

does anyone happen to know in what collection or anthology i might find
stephen king's story "suffer the little children"?

(has anyone used it in a course?)

please back channel

thanks!

beth



From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu  Mon Aug 19 16:22:50 2002
From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Prentiss, Amber)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 16:22:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: canon-busting
Message-ID: <B34CC5874D6F954E9B587FC833F4EDE025137B@ness.agnesscott.edu>

I think there's a lot of hysteria and hype about the extent to which the
canon has been "busted." I think that the traditional canon has been added
to, but I don't know if people have been kicked out.  Everyone knows the
basic story of Romeo and Juliet, even if they've never read or seen it, and
it will probably stay that way until Shakespearean English is too hard to
comprehend, probably beyond. Because people like it. A lot. Still. The real
problem arises, I think, rather simply. A semester is only a semester, after
all, and a professor can only fit so much into that space. Then the
professor must prioritize the new and the traditional. And then you get into
the whole tangle of what defines good lit, politics, historical
significance, etc., etc., that the general reader never really worries about
because the general reader just likes what she likes. (A state I will
probably happily fall back into when I graduate.) In K-12, I really don't
understand how an English (excuse me, Language Arts) teacher is supposed to
instill appreciation of and a discerning eye for literature when some of
their students may be only be functionally literate, systemwide and
statewide exams loom around the corner, and they're still responsible for
teaching grammar.

Besides, everyone knows that kids are being educated so they can get jobs.
It's ugly, but I, for one, think it's true. Try to listen to politicians
talk about reforming education, and they always refer to the skills that
/employers/ need, not developing an appreciation for aesthetics. What's the
driving force behind grade inflation and GPA-hungry students? Jobs. Everyone
wants to have an edge on all the other applicants for a job that might one
day lead to a corner office with a door. I might have delayed going to
college if I thought I had any real chance of getting a job that wouldn't
make my feet hurt. It's more indoctrination than pandering, at least until
college, when it's really a little too late. In the scramble for employment,
the academy then becomes irrelevant except as a sort of expensive
accreditation industry. A diploma becomes a very expensive piece of paper to
certify that this applicant is smart enough to read, think logically, and
write coherently. What does Blake have to do with quarterly earnings reports
and human resources?

-Amber, often a cynical and world-weary undergraduate

Original Message
---------------
David Graham, often a moderate and intelligent commentator,
unfortunately wrote
>>For the most part, the canon-busting that's been going on in recent
decades
>>is a very good thing, I believe.  There are still pockets of stiff
>>opposition, of course.  But as someone once said (who?), if you have the
>>future for an enemy you will always lose.

Sigh.  This sort of remark explains why the academies, and
particularly English depts., are held in such low repute.
I would hope kids are sent to school to be educated,
not pandered to. Neal Bowers' essay in the July Poetry
says it much better than I could hope to, and I recommend
it to all.

Richard


From GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU  Mon Aug 19 16:40:58 2002
From: GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU (Graham, David)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 15:40:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: canon-busting
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86E8B@mail.ripon.edu>

> ----------
> From: 	Graham, David
> Sent: 	Monday, August 19, 2002 1:02 PM
> To: 	Graham, David
> Subject: 	RE: canon-busting
> 
> I meant, of course, "Caucasian *male* New Englanders. . .".  Apologies to
> Emily Dickinson.
> 
> DG
> 
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> Home Page:  
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ========================================
> 
> 
> ----------
> From: 	Graham, David
> Sent: 	Monday, August 19, 2002 1:00 PM
> To: 	'new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu'
> Subject: 	canon-busting
> 
> Er, Richard, are you meaning to suggest that we *should* be teaching
> nothing but Caucasian New Englanders in our American Literature classes?
> 
> That was the context in which I praised the canon's evolution in recent
> decades.  
> 
> Personally, I think Kate Chopin and Emily Dickinson and Frederick Douglass
> are well worth studying & teaching.  "Pandering" is an unfortunately
> broad-brush to use on such authors, no?
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> Home Page:  
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ========================================
> 
> 
> 


From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Aug 19 18:12:54 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 18:12:54 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] SOMETHING ROTTEN
Message-ID: <35.2b8b25b9.2a92c766@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/19/02 11:29:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU writes:

> It's probably also worth noting that contest organizers don't, as a rule,
>  set up rotten contests.  They want fairness.  It's more often the 
individual
>  judges who screw things up.
I think this is true...the judge is generally the one with 
the ethical lapse...then the editors are afraid to
stand up to him/her. The ethical dilemma is
solved by a simple disclosure in ms. submission guidelines: 
"The final judge will be given the right solicit manuscripts." 
Of course doing so might reduce the fee income the press 
so badly needs.
Finnegan



From jpjones at ihug.com.au  Mon Aug 19 20:16:00 2002
From: jpjones at ihug.com.au (jpjones at ihug.com.au)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 19:16:00 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] SOMETHING ROTTEN
Message-ID: <E17gwgi-0000ZO-00@new-smtp1.ihug.com.au>

I've been a judge of a few contests over here - both large and small, book 
awards and awards for a single poem - and none of the things people are 
referring happened while I was involved. There was no culling by others, we did 
it from scratch. There were instances when judges tried to exercise some heavy 
pressure in favour of a mate but that was counteracted by the rest of us in the 
case I'm thinking of. Of course, I could not speak for other contests and am 
sure David is right, that individual judges can skew things around.

I sometimes wonder about the contests where the names of the judges are not 
available. In that case it would be easier to do things behind the scene 
knowing there's no public face that must stand in the glare of the decision.

We don't seem to have as many contests here in Australia, although the list is 
growing. Maybe as it does the undesirable processes will as well.

Cheers,
Jill



> I also know of a few cases where writers sent in manuscripts in good faith,
> only to have a judge pick a friend or former student who was not necessarily
> in the screened pile.  
> 
> Noxious as such incidents are, though, I have to say that I have firsthand
> knowledge (both as a screener and a submitter) of contests that are run on
> the up-and-up.  I'm not sure what percentage of contests are rotten, and the
> nature of things seems to ensure that most such cases will remain anecdotal
> at best.  
> 
> It's probably also worth noting that contest organizers don't, as a rule,
> set up rotten contests.  They want fairness.  It's more often the individual
> judges who screw things up.
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> Home Page:  
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ========================================
> 
> 
> 
> 
> &gt; &gt; Finnegan
> &gt; &gt; I won't go into the details...but I've firsthand knowledge
> &gt; &gt; of the screener selected manuscripts being "added to"
> &gt; &gt; by an eminent poet's personal pick from the leftover pile.
> &gt; &gt; I'm sure it happens with some regularity. 
> &gt; 
> &gt; Yes -- isn't that the trouble, though?  No one ever goes into the 
> &gt; details and so it continues to happen without penalty.
> &gt; 
> &gt; I suppose the problem is that if one rats out one contest's bad 
> &gt; practices one is never asked to judge another?
> &gt; Marcus Bales
> &gt; 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Mon Aug 19 22:42:08 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:42:08 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] SOMETHING ROTTEN
References: <E17gwgi-0000ZO-00@new-smtp1.ihug.com.au>
Message-ID: <00b101c247f3$32166a30$58864cca@JROSS2>

Good to know that the people on this list are all ethical.  Alas, many
(people who imagine themselves to be) poets out there cannot even spell the
word.  Then again, perhaps they imagine that "selecting" the folks they do
is the best thing for the contest/publication/organisation involved?  Given
the benefit of doubt, I could imagine this ...

Zan
----- Original Message -----
From: <jpjones at ihug.com.au>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 8:16 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] SOMETHING ROTTEN


> I've been a judge of a few contests over here - both large and small, book
> awards and awards for a single poem - and none of the things people are
> referring happened while I was involved. There was no culling by others,
we did
> it from scratch. There were instances when judges tried to exercise some
heavy
> pressure in favour of a mate but that was counteracted by the rest of us
in the
> case I'm thinking of. Of course, I could not speak for other contests and
am
> sure David is right, that individual judges can skew things around.
>
> I sometimes wonder about the contests where the names of the judges are
not
> available. In that case it would be easier to do things behind the scene
> knowing there's no public face that must stand in the glare of the
decision.
>
> We don't seem to have as many contests here in Australia, although the
list is
> growing. Maybe as it does the undesirable processes will as well.
>
> Cheers,
> Jill
>
>
>
> > I also know of a few cases where writers sent in manuscripts in good
faith,
> > only to have a judge pick a friend or former student who was not
necessarily
> > in the screened pile.
> >
> > Noxious as such incidents are, though, I have to say that I have
firsthand
> > knowledge (both as a screener and a submitter) of contests that are run
on
> > the up-and-up.  I'm not sure what percentage of contests are rotten, and
the
> > nature of things seems to ensure that most such cases will remain
anecdotal
> > at best.
> >
> > It's probably also worth noting that contest organizers don't, as a
rule,
> > set up rotten contests.  They want fairness.  It's more often the
individual
> > judges who screw things up.
> > ========================================
> > David Graham
> > grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> > Home Page:
> > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> > Poetry Library:
> > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> > ========================================
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > &gt; &gt; Finnegan
> > &gt; &gt; I won't go into the details...but I've firsthand knowledge
> > &gt; &gt; of the screener selected manuscripts being "added to"
> > &gt; &gt; by an eminent poet's personal pick from the leftover pile.
> > &gt; &gt; I'm sure it happens with some regularity.
> > &gt;
> > &gt; Yes -- isn't that the trouble, though?  No one ever goes into the
> > &gt; details and so it continues to happen without penalty.
> > &gt;
> > &gt; I suppose the problem is that if one rats out one contest's bad
> > &gt; practices one is never asked to judge another?
> > &gt; Marcus Bales
> > &gt;
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From MillB at aol.com  Mon Aug 19 22:54:00 2002
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 22:54:00 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] SOMETHING ROTTEN
Message-ID: <62.246db3a8.2a930948@aol.com>

This isn't a competition issue, but a related dirty little secret.

What do you think about the literary journals that "advertise" as if they 
accept submissions; however, in actuality, all of their work is from the 
following sources: solicited from "famous" writers, contributing editors, or 
grad students at the university where the journal is published?  

The only work that is not culled from the above categories is the one winning 
poem in their yearly contestn for which they charge $20 to enter.

Mill


From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu  Tue Aug 20 00:37:51 2002
From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 2002 23:37:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] SOMETHING ROTTEN
In-Reply-To: <00b101c247f3$32166a30$58864cca@JROSS2>
References: <E17gwgi-0000ZO-00@new-smtp1.ihug.com.au>
 <00b101c247f3$32166a30$58864cca@JROSS2>
Message-ID: <a05100301b9877800fa40@[165.190.124.251]>

There's also the matter of good manuscripts being screened out by 
screeners, no?
ellen s.
-- 


From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Mon Aug 19 23:02:38 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 11:02:38 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: canon-busting
References: <B34CC5874D6F954E9B587FC833F4EDE025137B@ness.agnesscott.edu>
Message-ID: <00d301c247f6$0d9cc520$58864cca@JROSS2>

Personally, I like the canon-busting going on (which canon depends largely
on the institution one is affiliated with) -- gives one so much more choice
in text selection for courses.

Of course, I do NOT like what is generally happening in so-called English
courses at university level these days (in Australia): since they are no
longer compulsory for students in Humanities areas, never mind other areas
of the university, they, too, are being directed towards employment
prospects post-uni.

Additionally, classrooms are being filled to overflowing, fewer
lecturers/tutors are being employed, academics are expected to do more and
more for less and less, the boom has been lowered for entrance levels, admin
rules in most cases, and consequently, students are the ones losing out and
no one learns what they were meant to take away from a university education:
how to think.

Perhaps, when governments and governing bodies come back to understanding
that university is NOT a factory, we might be better off.  Until then, well
...

Zan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Prentiss, Amber" <aprentiss at agnesscott.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 4:22 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: canon-busting


> I think there's a lot of hysteria and hype about the extent to which the
> canon has been "busted." I think that the traditional canon has been added
> to, but I don't know if people have been kicked out.  Everyone knows the
> basic story of Romeo and Juliet, even if they've never read or seen it,
and
> it will probably stay that way until Shakespearean English is too hard to
> comprehend, probably beyond. Because people like it. A lot. Still. The
real
> problem arises, I think, rather simply. A semester is only a semester,
after
> all, and a professor can only fit so much into that space. Then the
> professor must prioritize the new and the traditional. And then you get
into
> the whole tangle of what defines good lit, politics, historical
> significance, etc., etc., that the general reader never really worries
about
> because the general reader just likes what she likes. (A state I will
> probably happily fall back into when I graduate.) In K-12, I really don't
> understand how an English (excuse me, Language Arts) teacher is supposed
to
> instill appreciation of and a discerning eye for literature when some of
> their students may be only be functionally literate, systemwide and
> statewide exams loom around the corner, and they're still responsible for
> teaching grammar.
>
> Besides, everyone knows that kids are being educated so they can get jobs.
> It's ugly, but I, for one, think it's true. Try to listen to politicians
> talk about reforming education, and they always refer to the skills that
> /employers/ need, not developing an appreciation for aesthetics. What's
the
> driving force behind grade inflation and GPA-hungry students? Jobs.
Everyone
> wants to have an edge on all the other applicants for a job that might one
> day lead to a corner office with a door. I might have delayed going to
> college if I thought I had any real chance of getting a job that wouldn't
> make my feet hurt. It's more indoctrination than pandering, at least until
> college, when it's really a little too late. In the scramble for
employment,
> the academy then becomes irrelevant except as a sort of expensive
> accreditation industry. A diploma becomes a very expensive piece of paper
to
> certify that this applicant is smart enough to read, think logically, and
> write coherently. What does Blake have to do with quarterly earnings
reports
> and human resources?
>
> -Amber, often a cynical and world-weary undergraduate
>
> Original Message
> ---------------
> David Graham, often a moderate and intelligent commentator,
> unfortunately wrote
> >>For the most part, the canon-busting that's been going on in recent
> decades
> >>is a very good thing, I believe.  There are still pockets of stiff
> >>opposition, of course.  But as someone once said (who?), if you have the
> >>future for an enemy you will always lose.
>
> Sigh.  This sort of remark explains why the academies, and
> particularly English depts., are held in such low repute.
> I would hope kids are sent to school to be educated,
> not pandered to. Neal Bowers' essay in the July Poetry
> says it much better than I could hope to, and I recommend
> it to all.
>
> Richard
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From Cadaly at aol.com  Tue Aug 20 01:00:13 2002
From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 01:00:13 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] SOMETHING ROTTEN
Message-ID: <15c.1239b03b.2a9326dd@aol.com>

actually, when I was on the staff of columbia, everyone was "entered" into 
the contest unless they were "famous" and if they won & hadn't sent the fee, 
the fee was deducted from the prize money -- I doubt the fee-sending 
submitters knew this

now there are many fee-only journals; I did do a round of submissions (years 
ago) to contests without enclosing a check for the fee -- didn't win 
anything, though, so it didn't prove much

I tell my students never to enter a fee-based contest for individual poem 
publication; more students than I ever expected -- at all levels -- spend 
more money than I imagined pay to enter contests and attend unaccredited 
seminars (in LA, many have a spiritual or therapeutic dimension).  

I could rant on this; I won't submit to journals who run contests with fees.  
It's wrong.  Didn't Agni try to charge $1 / poem to read them at one point?  
I haven't looked since they did that -- must've been the late 80s-early 90s.

Rgds,
Catherine Daly
cadaly at pacbell.net
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From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Aug 20 07:32:27 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 07:32:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] SOMETHING ROTTEN
In-Reply-To: <a05100301b9877800fa40@[165.190.124.251]>
References: <00b101c247f3$32166a30$58864cca@JROSS2>
Message-ID: <3D61F08B.30663.120C67@localhost>

ellen smith wrote:
> There's also the matter of good manuscripts being screened out by 
> screeners, no?

Yabbut, that's an ordinary risk entailed in any subjective judgment 
situation, no?  Judgment is not perfect.  The objection is not to the 
occasional missed judgment, but to the process of deliberate 
corruption.  I know, I know -- the consequences of corruption in 
poetry contests is so minimal that it ought to be overlooked, no?

Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Aug 20 08:26:52 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 08:26:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] SOMETHING ROTTEN
In-Reply-To: <62.246db3a8.2a930948@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D61FD4C.3022.43E07F@localhost>

MillB:
> This isn't a competition issue, but a related dirty little secret.
> What do you think about the literary journals that "advertise" as if they 
> accept submissions; however, in actuality, all of their work is from the 
> following sources: solicited from "famous" writers, contributing editors, or 
> grad students at the university where the journal is published?  

With appropriate substitutions such as "friends of the editor" for  
"famous writers", and "people met in person" for "grad students at 
the university", how does that differ from how any literary journal 
selects what to publish?


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Aug 20 08:29:08 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 08:29:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] SOMETHING ROTTEN
In-Reply-To: <62.246db3a8.2a930948@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D61FDD4.2898.45F581@localhost>

> This isn't a competition issue, but a related dirty little secret.
> What do you think about the literary journals that "advertise" as if they 
> accept submissions; however, in actuality, all of their work is from the 
> following sources: solicited from "famous" writers, contributing editors, or 
> grad students at the university where the journal is published?  
> The only work that is not culled from the above categories is the one winning 
> poem in their yearly contestn for which they charge $20 to enter.
> Mill

Look out, Mill!  W. Scott Olson is just about to tell you to please 
stop!


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From DICK at watson.ibm.com  Tue Aug 20 09:22:41 2002
From: DICK at watson.ibm.com (DICK at watson.ibm.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 02 09:22:41 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] canon-busting
Message-ID: <200208201326.g7KDQsV66100@sp1n293en1.watson.ibm.com>

David Graham writes (now):
>>That was the context in which I praised the canon's evolution in recent
>>decades.
>>
David, there's quite a difference between "canon's evolution"
and "canon-busting," no?  I wouldn't argue with the latter.
>>
>>Er, Richard, are you meaning to suggest that we *should* be teaching nothing
>>but Caucasian New Englanders in our American Literature classes?

David, this flimsiest of straw men is really unworthy.

Check out Neal Bowers' essay in the July Poetry.  It's refreshing.

Richard


From MillB at aol.com  Tue Aug 20 10:19:08 2002
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 10:19:08 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] SOMETHING ROTTEN
Message-ID: <19c.7474a74.2a93a9dc@aol.com>

Marcus Bales

The problem is that such publications assert that they are something they are 
not. 

For example, their Poets Market listing might state that they accept 10% of 
what is submitted when, in actuality, they accept zero. 

At one university publication where I worked, each semester was a frantic 
letter writing campaign to established writers, soliciting work.  Still the 
piles of submissions arrived, never to be screened or read.  It was 
dishonest.  

Two editions each year, comprised solely of solicited work, past student 
editors' work and one winning poem from the journal's annual contest.  

Nothing from the so-called slush pile ever made it into an issue.

Mill
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From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Tue Aug 20 10:31:32 2002
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 09:31:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] SOMETHING ROTTEN
Message-ID: <200208201430.g7KEUbk23055@mx8.mx.voyager.net>

Wish I still had the journal I saw some 15 or 20 years ago (AGNI or
PLOUGHSHARES, maybe?) in which the contributors' notes were all variations
on how the contributor was related to the editor.  It was hilarious.

Anyone else remember this?

Stuff like:

     "A is a poet, essayist, and childhood friend of the editor."

     "B, a former teacher of the editor, has recently published..."  

     "Though he has never met the editor, C is the publisher of his wife's
first book."  

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------

>
>With appropriate substitutions such as "friends of the editor" for  
>"famous writers", and "people met in person" for "grad students at 
>the university", how does that differ from how any literary journal 
>selects what to publish?
>
>
>Marcus Bales


From DICK at watson.ibm.com  Tue Aug 20 13:59:42 2002
From: DICK at watson.ibm.com (DICK at watson.ibm.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 02 13:59:42 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] canon-busting
Message-ID: <200208201801.g7KI1RV78456@sp1n293en1.watson.ibm.com>

Richard wrote:
>>David Graham writes (now):
>>>>That was the context in which I praised the canon's evolution in recent
>>>>decades.
>>>>
>>David, there's quite a difference between "canon's evolution"
>>and "canon-busting," no?  I wouldn't argue with the latter.
>>>>

and obviously meant "...with the former."  Sorry 'bout that.
Fumble-fingers (a.k.a. Richard)


From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Tue Aug 20 15:37:51 2002
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 14:37:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bowers' essay
Message-ID: <200208201936.g7KJaua30912@mx10.mx.voyager.net>

I've had a chance to look at the recommended essay by Neal Bowers
("University Poetry, Inc.") in the July issue of *Poetry*, and I'm sorry to
say it strikes me as a waste of paper.  I confess I'm surprised that Poetry
ran such a tired roundup of the usual suspects--yet another generalized
diatribe against poetry and the academy, quite typical of the genre in its
absolute avoidance of specifics.  

That's right:  no living poet is mentioned by name (Roethke and Berryman are
glancingly noted for their mental illness, of course), nor are any
particular writing programs examined.  Certainly no poems are quoted.  What
we are given are sweeping historical generalizations of the sort that
*Newsweek* specializes in:  you know, "Kids Today:  A Lost Generation," or
"Digital Life:  Chaos & Calamity."  It's a jazzy stew of half truths,
stereotype, and logical fudge.  Worst of all, perhaps, whatever's true in it
is very old news.

The essay's claims, all unbuttressed by examples, run to this sort of
journalistic flourish (the reference is to book publication contests):

"Randomness has replaced careful evaluation and considered judgment.  As the
poet's English department colleagues insist, any work can be good or bad in
the absence of broadly accepted standards of quality, so it makes little
difference which manuscript is selected."

That's a cartoon, not an argument.  

Here are Bowers's remarks on the canon question:

"These days, English departments everywhere have deconstructed themselves to
the level of nonsense.  Literary theory has become the new literature, and
no scholar worthy of his French influences believes in the objective reality
of any text.  The traditional canon no longer exists, nor do traditional
standards.  Everything is suitable for study because no one is privileged to
judge one work to be better than another.  Good and bad are regarded as
relative terms, which makes it difficult to protest when *Long Day's Journey
into Night* is bumped from the curriculum by *The Vagina Monologues*."

This is a caricature at best, and certainly doesn't describe any school I've
attended or taught at over the past 30 years.  

If you want nuance and critical intelligence, go re-read Dana Gioia, who
does this sort of polemic infinitely better, and actually has some good
proposals to make about the teaching of poetry.  

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================



From jdavis at iaiancad.org  Tue Aug 20 15:43:53 2002
From: jdavis at iaiancad.org (Jon Davis)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:43:53 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Contributors' Notes
References: <200208201601.g7KG18612506@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <3D629BF9.42438963@iaiancad.org>

David,

I think the New York Quarterly ran Contributors' Notes like the ones you mentioned maybe ten or fifteen years ago.  I think William Packard might have been editing the journal . . .

Jon Davis



From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu  Tue Aug 20 18:04:34 2002
From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:04:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bowers' essay
In-Reply-To: <200208201936.g7KJaua30912@mx10.mx.voyager.net>
References: <200208201936.g7KJaua30912@mx10.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <a05100300b9886afc1390@[165.190.124.251]>

Thanks, David, for the review of the Bowers essay.  I know that I 
cannot afford nostalgia for the academy or the literary traditions of 
the past--because in the past, I wouldn't have been able to devote my 
life to this work.  So many people fail to really understand this, 
except on the level of endangered privilege, in which case they so 
often rail against the current state of affairs because there are 
simply more people to compete against.  But, never having been raised 
to simply expect that my hard work would supply me with a wife, home, 
and satisfying career, I'll never know what that frustration is like. 
All I know is that it is never purely aesthetic, despite its claims. 
Nor are my claims...
ellen s.
-- 


From marcus at designerglass.com  Tue Aug 20 18:40:42 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 18:40:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] SOMETHING ROTTEN
In-Reply-To: <19c.7474a74.2a93a9dc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D628D2A.26159.1AAE4D@localhost>

> The problem is that such publications assert that they are something they are 
> not. For example, their Poets Market listing might state that they accept 10% of 
> what is submitted when, in actuality, they accept zero. 
> At one university publication where I worked, each semester was a frantic 
> letter writing campaign to established writers, soliciting work.  Still the 
> piles of submissions arrived, never to be screened or read.  It was 
> dishonest. Two editions each year, comprised solely of solicited work, past student 
> editors' work and one winning poem from the journal's annual contest.  
> Nothing from the so-called slush pile ever made it into an issue.<<

No doubt.  And my question is how that differs materially from how 
most such journals are published?


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From MillB at aol.com  Tue Aug 20 20:07:17 2002
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 20:07:17 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] SOMETHING ROTTEN
Message-ID: <40.22986041.2a9433b5@aol.com>

Marcus:

After ten years of submitting work and on and off editing jobs, I would say 
(in my humble opinion) that most literary journals read submissions from the 
general public and select pieces from the slush pile.

Some also solicit established writers (especially if there's a tribute or 
theme).  Some do not solicit at all.  Some have contributing editors.  Some 
don't.

The problem for me arises when a journal's editors present themselves falsely 
as accepting submissions when (in actuality) they do not.  That's misleading. 
 It's like advertising for an apartment that doesn't exist.

If I knew, for example, that a particular publication only published 
solicited work, I would not waste my time and postage.

Mill


From hruggier at localnet.com  Tue Aug 20 20:31:57 2002
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 20:31:57 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] we write in the dark
References: <5.1.0.14.0.20020818204548.029f0b10@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu>
Message-ID: <3D62DF7D.EE8EB76@localnet.com>

Groucho Marx

Gudding wrote:

> I don't know, Beth, but this reminds me of I think James Thurber's comment:
> "Outside of a dog a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it is too
> dark to read."
>
> Gabe
>
> (Was this Thurber or Nash? Or was it WC Fields?)
>
> At 05:22 PM 8/18/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> >"We write in the dark."
> >
> >Does anyone know where this quote, which, I think Henry James wrote,
> >occurs?
> >
> >please backchannel
> >
> >thanks
> >
> >beth
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From chryss at silcom.com  Tue Aug 20 20:18:50 2002
From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 17:18:50 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] we write in the dark
In-Reply-To: <3D62DF7D.EE8EB76@localnet.com>
Message-ID: <B9882A7A.28D6%chryss@silcom.com>

Groucho Marx?

> From: Helen Ruggieri <hruggier at localnet.com>
> Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 20:31:57 -0400
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] we write in the dark
> 
> Groucho Marx
> 
> Gudding wrote:
> 
>> I don't know, Beth, but this reminds me of I think James Thurber's comment:
>> "Outside of a dog a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it is too
>> dark to read."
>> 
>> Gabe
>> 
>> (Was this Thurber or Nash? Or was it WC Fields?)
>> 
>> At 05:22 PM 8/18/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>>> "We write in the dark."
>>> 
>>> Does anyone know where this quote, which, I think Henry James wrote,
>>> occurs?
>>> 
>>> please backchannel
>>> 
>>> thanks
>>> 
>>> beth
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 



From gudding at olemiss.edu  Tue Aug 20 20:59:58 2002
From: gudding at olemiss.edu (Gudding)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 19:59:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] we write in the dark
In-Reply-To: <B9882A7A.28D6%chryss@silcom.com>
References: <3D62DF7D.EE8EB76@localnet.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020820195912.022ed4c0@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu>

Then Chryss Yost wrote:
>Groucho Marx?

Well it certainly wasn't Harpo!



From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Aug 20 22:40:14 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 22:40:14 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Olive B. O'Connor Fellowship
Message-ID: <19d.7529572.2a94578e@aol.com>

The Colgate University "Olive B. O'Connor Fellowship in Creative
Writing"
The Department of English at Colgate University invites applications for
its O'Connor Fellowship.  Writers of poetry, nonfictional prose, or
prose fiction who have recently completed an MFA, MA, or PhD in creative
writing, and who need a year for the completion of their first book, are
encouraged to apply.  The selected writer will spend the academic year
(beginning in late August and concluding in early May) at Colgate
University in Hamilton, NY.  The fellow will teach one creative writing
course each semester and will give a public reading from the work in
progress.  The fellowship carries a stipend of $28,000 plus travel
expenses; health and life insurance are provided.

Complete applications, which should arrive by January 15, 2003, consist
of a resume; three letters of recommendation, at least one of which must
address the candidate's abilities as a teacher; and either (1) a maximum
of 30 double-spaced pages of ficiton (complete  short story or novel
excerpt); (2) 2 single-spaced pages of poetry; (3) a maximum of 30
double-spaced pages of nonfiction (complete essay or excerpt of a
full-length work).  Send applications (under one cover, if possible) to
Creative Writing Fellowship c/o the Department of English, Colgate
University, 13 Oak Drive, Hamilton, NY  13346-1398.


From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Wed Aug 21 09:36:48 2002
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 09:36:48 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] SOMETHING ROTTEN
References: <40.22986041.2a9433b5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <002701c24917$cd493e40$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

Is there any way of compiling a list of publications that claim to solicit
work, but don't?


SITUATIONS
pub date August 1
to order - or for more info
http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards/situations.html


----- Original Message -----
From: <MillB at aol.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2002 8:07 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] SOMETHING ROTTEN


> Marcus:
>
> After ten years of submitting work and on and off editing jobs, I would
say
> (in my humble opinion) that most literary journals read submissions from
the
> general public and select pieces from the slush pile.
>
> Some also solicit established writers (especially if there's a tribute or
> theme).  Some do not solicit at all.  Some have contributing editors.
Some
> don't.
>
> The problem for me arises when a journal's editors present themselves
falsely
> as accepting submissions when (in actuality) they do not.  That's
misleading.
>  It's like advertising for an apartment that doesn't exist.
>
> If I knew, for example, that a particular publication only published
> solicited work, I would not waste my time and postage.
>
> Mill
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From hruggier at localnet.com  Wed Aug 21 10:34:24 2002
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:34:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Terrance Hayes
References: <200208150142.g7F1gwU75524@mx10.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <3D63A4F0.79725D8@localnet.com>

Gabby Hayes?

David Graham wrote:

> Just realized I had a little midlife moment earlier today, involving a mixup
> of two lists.  In case anyone was curious, below is the poem by Terrance
> Hayes that I apparently did *not* post to NewPoetry. . . .
>
> For the record, this is not my favorite Hayes poem.
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ========================================
>
> Sonnet
>
> We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
> We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
> We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
> We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
> We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
> We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
> We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
> We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
> We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
> We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
> We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
> We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
> We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
> We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
>
> --Terrance Hayes.  *Hip Logic*.  Penguin, 2000.
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ========================================
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Aug 21 22:45:49 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 22:45:49 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Well put
Message-ID: <159.12e73597.2a95aa5d@aol.com>

Any mode of criticism, be it domestic or imported, that 
would defraud us of this true context of [his] meanings
must at last be dismissed with a kind of genial contempt.
--Harold Bloom, "Transumption"
The Breaking of the Vessels, The Wellek Library Lectures


From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Aug 21 22:59:04 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 22:59:04 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] As far as words go
Message-ID: <ba.2ad2ae55.2a95ad78@aol.com>

As far as words go, or,
How to revise your paper
 
First of all, find a better title.
And make it more like yourself,
inventive, a bit punchy,
but good at heart.
 
The real problem is
you're not telling me enough
about far too much.
 
So reach for the pen, 
the one with ink as red as your blood
is blue,
and tell me much more,
but about much less.
 
Sharpen your mind as if it were a pencil,
whet and hone it to its finest point.
Then, as you write, press harder,
write deeper.
 
Leave the imprint of your words
so that they can still be read on the 
under pages of a loose leaf pad.
 
If some of your sentences are long, amusing puzzles
with a syntactic complexity that rivals the brain,
make others short.
 
If your paper were to catch fire, 
make your introduction the paragraph
you would rush to save first.
 
And as far as words go,
mix the luscious Latinate ones
with spicy bits and gritty chunks
or good Germanic stuff.
Luxuriate in the romance of all languages;
make them all your own tongue.
 
Revise and rewrite, and switch around and scratch things out
(using carets, arrows, and asterisks)
until you stumble at last on the eloquent.
 
? Taylor Mali (What Learning Leave, Hanover Press, 2002)
_._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._._


From grahamd at vbe.com  Wed Aug 21 23:48:34 2002
From: grahamd at vbe.com (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 22:48:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Well put
Message-ID: <200208220348.g7M3mNN04455@mail4.mx.voyager.net>

FICTION

We would get a map of our farm as big
as our farm, and unroll the heavy paper
over the fields, with encouraging things
written here and there--"tomatoes," "corn,"
"creek."  Then in the morning we would
stick our heads through and sing, "Barn, be cleaned."
"Plow, turn over the south forty!"
But while our words were going out
on the paper, here would come rumpling
along under the map Old Barney,
just on the ground--he couldn't even
read--going out to slop the hogs.

     --William Stafford, *A Glass Face in the Rain*, 1982.

===================================================
David Graham
grahamd at vbe.com
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
===================================================


----------
>From: JforJames at aol.com

>Any mode of criticism, be it domestic or imported, that 
>would defraud us of this true context of [his] meanings
>must at last be dismissed with a kind of genial contempt.
>--Harold Bloom, "Transumption"
>The Breaking of the Vessels, The Wellek Library Lectures


From adead_poet at hotmail.com  Thu Aug 22 03:45:15 2002
From: adead_poet at hotmail.com (jason huff)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 02:45:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] More by Terrance Hayes
Message-ID: <F22174T3ML5Wr9YKKaC000213eb@hotmail.com>

David,

I missed the 'goofball' "Sonnet"' by Terrance Hayes that you posted a couple 
of weeks ago. could you resend to me?

thanks,
jason


_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx



From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Thu Aug 22 11:31:16 2002
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 10:31:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Marilyn Taylor
Message-ID: <200208221530.g7MFUJ545243@mx6.mx.voyager.net>

Reading the Obituaries

Now the Barbaras have begun to die, 
trailing their older sisters to the grave, 
the Helens, Margies, Nans--who said goodbye 
just days ago, it seems, taking their leave 
a step or two behind the hooded girls 
who bloomed and withered with the century--
the Dorotheas, Eleanors and Pearls 
now swaying on the edge of memory. 
Soon, soon, the scythe will sweep for Jean 
and Pamela, Teresa and Diane--
pause, and return for Karen and Christine 
while Susan spends a sleepless night again. 

     Ah, Debra, how can you be growing old? 
     Jennifer, Michelle, your hands are cold.

--Marilyn Taylor.  *Greatest Hits: 1986-2000*.  Pudding House Publications.

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================



From gudding at olemiss.edu  Thu Aug 22 11:58:57 2002
From: gudding at olemiss.edu (Gudding)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 10:58:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Kamau Brathwaite
In-Reply-To: <200208221530.g7MFUJ545243@mx6.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020822105330.0229d9d0@sunset.backbone.olemiss.edu>

   from Stone

     for Mikey Smith, stoned to death on Stony Hill, Kingston 1954-1983

When the stone fall that morning out of the johncrow sky
it was not dark at first . that opening on to the red sea humming
but something in my mouth like feathers .  blue like bubbles
carrying signals & planets & the sliding curve of the
world like a water pic. ture in a raindrop when the pressure. drop

When the stone fall that morning out of the johncrow sky

I couldn't cry out because my mouth was full of beast & plunder
as if I was gnashing badwords among tombstones
as if the road up stony hill .  round the bend by the church
yard .  on the way to the post office .  was a bad bad dream

& the dream was like a snarl of broken copper wire zig
zagging its electric flashes up the hill & splitt.  ing spark & flow.
ers high.  er up the hill.  past the white houses & the ogogs bark.
ing all teeth & fur.  nace & my mother like she up.  like she up.

like she up.  side down up a tree like she was scream.
like she was scream.  like she was scream.  ing no & no.
body i could hear could hear a word i say. ing .  even though
there were so many poems left & the tape was switched on &

runn.  ing & runn.  ing &
the green light was red & they was stannin up there &
evva.  where in london & amsterdam & at unesco in paris &
in west berlin & clapp.  ing & clapp.  ing & clapp.  ing &

not a soul on stony hill to even say amen

& yet it was happening happening happening .
the fences begin to crack in i skull.
& there was a loud booodoooooooooooooooogs like
guns goin off  .  them ole time magnums .

or like a fireworks a dreadlocks was on fire .
  & the gaps where the river comin down
inna the drei gully where my teeth use to be smilin .
  & i tuff gong tongue that use to press against them & parade

pronunciation . now unannounce & like a black wick in i head & dead .
& it was like a heavy heavy riddim low down in i belly . bleedin dub .
& there was like this heavy heavy black dog thump.  in in i chest &
pump.  in

murdererrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

& i throat like dem tie.  like dem tie.  like dem tie a tight tie a.
round it.  twist.  ing my name quick crick.  quick crick .
& a nevva wear neck. tie yet .

& a hear when de big boot kick down i door . stump
in it foot pun a knot in de floor.  board .
a window slam shat at de back a mi heart .

de itch & ooze & damp a de yaaad
in mi sil. ver tam. bourines closer & closer .
st joseph marching bands crash.  ing & closer .

bom si. cai si. ca boom ship bell . bom si. cai si. ca boom ship bell
& a laughin more blood & spittin out

lawwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwd

                           from Middle Passages 1992 (50-52)




From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Thu Aug 22 23:43:36 2002
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 22:43:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets on Music
Message-ID: <200208230342.g7N3geA42105@mx3.mx.voyager.net>

I just stumbled across a lovely feature in the online version of the
Missouri Review.  A collection of "Poets on Music"--brief essays by William
Matthews, Charles Simic, Ira Sadoff, Charles Wright, Dana Gioia, and Richard
Tillinghast, edited by Sherod Santos.

Some great stuff here, on subjects ranging from Ben Webster to Bob Dylan and
A. P. Carter.

http://moreview.org/index.php?genre=Nonfiction&title=Poets+on+Music+--+Short
+Essays
========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================



From Henry_Gould at brown.edu  Fri Aug 23 13:05:25 2002
From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 13:05:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: The Miseries of Poetry
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20020823130257.00aac510@postoffice.brown.edu>

Forwarding to the list from Kent Johnson per his request.

Henry Gould


>FYI, blurbs follow:
>
>Announcing: The Miseries of Poetry: Versions from the Greek,
>translated by Alexandra Papaditsas (1960-2002) and Kent
>Johnson. Vestibulum [spora tradere], by Slavoj Zizek;
>Preface, by Kent Johnson; Introduction, by Alexandra
>Papaditsas. Nineteen translations. 30+ pages. $6. Available fall,
>2002. First 25 copies, B through Z, signed by Kent Johnson.
>Advance signed copies ordered directly through the publisher:
>Skanky Possum Press * 2925 Higgins Street * Austin, TX
>78722
>
>*
>In this remarkable work by Alexandra Papaditsas and Kent
>Johnson, something very strange does happen: Antiquity is
>brought into the present in a manner analogous to how the
>Cameroonian stink ant (Megaloponera miserabilis foetens)
>brings forth new life. Let me explain...
>
>-from the Vestibulum, by Slavoj Zizek
>
>We have all always desired the eyeless goddess, the handsome
>whore-boy, the Megala Louloudia.  Here they are.  Ever since the
>cache was discovered at Montazah Palace, we've been waiting for
>translations suitable for Greek menus everywhere.  Had the Greeks
>invented fortune cookies, they could not have foretold the strange
>beauty of these versions.
>
>-Eleni Sikelianos
>
>
>I'm doubled over by the Miseries of Poetry, folded into a mirror
>world of literature and here live on moth-ambrosia, play happily
>with possible ancillas of the Pre-Socratics. --
>
>-Garrett Kalleberg
>
>
>Like the Jews, if Kent Johnson didn't exist, someone would have to
>invent him. His mind leaks nomads constantly naming world-
>historic hinges as if inscription were always underfoot. You can't
>pull Catullus out of the 'incubated / god, writing himself into being'
>but you can pull the door open. Literature is close to fraud,
>evanescent and trembling in these times of incipient terror.
>Johnson's approach deconstructs and exacerbates that fraud; I
>think of his work as returning to the (re)creation of language -
>political and sexual language, the languages of the last people
>speaking on earth.
>
>-Alan Sondheim
>
>
>If they ever need a Classics Geek on "Beat the Geeks," Dr. Kent
>Johnson is their man. The Miseries of Poetry is an operatically
>nerdy intervention in the transmission of ancient lyric, a scurrilous,
>fantastical, erudite, shameless, and often very moving addition to
>the Geek--er, Greek--Anthology. More faithful in its peregrinate
>Sapphic incontinence than most of the last two centuries of vanilla-
>flavored translations, this sheaf of cracked-amphora smut will
>change the way people misinterpret Linear B forever.  Roll over,
>Richmond Lattimore: this is not your father's Mimnermus.
>
>-Kasey Silem Mohammad
>
>
>In the realm of ethics the ends rarely justify the means; in the
>realm of art they always do. This complex translation by
>Alexandra Papaditsas and Kent Johnson is flamboyant,
>provocative, and brilliant. In three or four thousand years, when
>English has long sounded more Asian than European, The
>Miseries of Poetry will no doubt be inciting tremendous passions
>at the KGB Bar.
>
>-David Lehman
>
>
>..still...moisture on the long
>papyrus fragments, vivid
>charm and cultural
>codes transposed
>on a spit the
>tang of the Johnson mystagogus,
>with live voice on quitch-grass
>carnal and refined,
>the then swag of buddhistic
>pomegranites, the bull-leapers..
>
>-Lissa Wolsak
>
>
>In The Miseries of Poetry, which court(s) opprobrium as a slanted
>form of cultural capital, violent mannerism is at war with erudite
>imagination. Neither wins. Read it to behold their struggle and
>moments of startling poetry.
>
>-Nada Gordon
>
>
>A pair of fabled translators politely ambushes us with a rich and
>randy trove of ancient papyri with a dicey provenance. Here the real
>is imbedded in the unreal, the imaginary in the factual. Lacunae
>appear where there were none, and credible texts, adeptly
>contemporized, where there were holes. The holes themselves are
>deliciously elaborated. Once the reader is urged to fall, "Fall,
>orangely, to the ground" resistance, in a single adverb, is dispelled.
>
>
>-C.D. Wright
>
>
>When Frank, Kenneth, Jimmy and I were young, the idea of forgery
>was a kind of coal to make us go very fast: We shoveled it,
>hungrily, into the bellowing fire, and the speed of our engine
>became often quite fantastic. There were no rules in that magical
>land; the backs of our chairs were turned against the sun, and
>sometimes we would get this overwhelming feeling of exaltation.
>Now, suddenly, we are here at this station, and one wonders,
>frankly, what has happened. "Avant-garde" poetry, whatever it is,
>like Amtrak rail travel, so clickety- clack, so predictable and slow...
>May I suggest that Alexandra Papaditsas be canonized as a saint
>of translation, and the cast of her horned head placed like a
>warning above the door of The Academy of American Poets.
>
>-John Ashbery
>
>
>What a strange debt of gratitude we owe to Kent Johnson and his
>co-translator, the perpetually-betrayed and haplessly goat-horned
>Alexandra Papaditsas (now deceased). In The Miseries of Poetry
>they bring us versions from the Greek that are at once bafflingly
>poignant, shriekingly funny, and far lovelier than they have any right
>to be, especially in light of their vexed provenance. These are
>poems full of mystery and buggery, flying in from an unmapped
>world on thin gold wings.
>
>-Rachel Loden
>
>
>Kent Johnson's Miseries probes our own relation with ancient
>Greek musicks, which for most of us are only ever received through
>"translation." In so doing, he celebrates and tweaks the
>permeability of that membrane we call "self" or "author-ity." Who is
>alive and who is not, now? Are you alive, reader? The arguments
>and skirmishes of a translator are, perhaps, "the miseries of
>poetry." And, in this, though translation might be always a "weird
>extrinsic appendage," we like it, we crave it, for it's also "love's
>ultimate excrescence into joy."
>
>-Erin Moure
>
>
>O to be struck by lightning
>And have a horn sprout
> From the middle of your forehead!
>Kent Johnson & Alexandra
>Papaditsas, may the ancient
>Greeks forgive you.  And us.
>
>--John Bradley




From hruggier at localnet.com  Fri Aug 23 14:08:19 2002
From: hruggier at localnet.com (Helen Ruggieri)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 14:08:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Terrance Hayes
References: <200208150142.g7F1gwU75524@mx10.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <3D667A12.7757DD75@localnet.com>

I love this poem - if readers can get through it without smiling - they must
have had their funnybone surgically removed.

I appreciate your selections - keep 'em coming.

Helen
David Graham wrote:

> Just realized I had a little midlife moment earlier today, involving a mixup
> of two lists.  In case anyone was curious, below is the poem by Terrance
> Hayes that I apparently did *not* post to NewPoetry. . . .
>
> For the record, this is not my favorite Hayes poem.
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ========================================
>
> Sonnet
>
> We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
> We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
> We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
> We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
> We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
> We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
> We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
> We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
> We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
> We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
> We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
> We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
> We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
> We sliced the watermelon into smiles.
>
> --Terrance Hayes.  *Hip Logic*.  Penguin, 2000.
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ========================================
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From MillB at aol.com  Fri Aug 23 14:36:01 2002
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 14:36:01 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Olive B O'Conner Fellowship in Creative Writing
Message-ID: <a0.2bdd6dba.2a97da91@aol.com>

Thanks for posting the announcement!

Does anyone else think it's strange that complete applications consist of 30 
pages of fiction, or nonfiction, but only two pages of poetry? 

I probably have too much time on my hands.  Dont' worry, I start work again 
tomorrow.

Mill


From halvard at earthlink.net  Fri Aug 23 14:46:13 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 14:46:13 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Olive B O'Conner Fellowship in Creative Writing
In-Reply-To: <a0.2bdd6dba.2a97da91@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEOGFGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

   
{    Does anyone else think it's strange that complete applications consist of 30 
{    pages of fiction, or nonfiction, but only two pages of poetry? 

Nah, that sounds about right. Take two pages of poetry, add water and 
seasoning, and you'll end up with about thirty pages of prose. 

Hal         Actual Product May Vary from Photos

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Aug 23 15:48:47 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 15:48:47 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bowers' essay
Message-ID: <186.cf6d3f3.2a97eb9f@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/20/02 3:38:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu writes:

> I've had a chance to look at the recommended essay by Neal Bowers
>  ("University Poetry, Inc.") in the July issue of *Poetry*, and I'm sorry to
>  say it strikes me as a waste of paper.  I confess I'm surprised that Poetry
>  ran such a tired roundup of the usual suspects--yet another generalized
>  diatribe against poetry and the academy, quite typical of the genre in its
>  absolute avoidance of specifics.  
David,
I got around to the library and read this piece. What strikes
me with a piece like this is how little Bowers seems to enjoy his 
own life. He describes his life as a poet in the academy as though
he were in some kind of penal institution. Perhaps he's clinically
depressed...
I don't teach. I'm not part of any English Dept.'s dysfunctional faculty. 
But I do have a very demanding job that has no room in it whatsoever 
for art. And I feel privileged (blessed even) every day of my life to have 
access, however tangentially, to the art of poetry. Literary theory is 
lit theory. Fashion is fashion. The publishing game is the publishing 
game. None of that is poetry. I want to slap him and say Wake up, Neal...
didn't you get into poetry because you desired to put words on paper 
in certain ways?...doesn't something in that process feed your
soul at the deepest level? That's it, that's all you were ever promised and 
that's all you're gonna get. How many pages in the Norton would Frost
give up for a day back on earth, to be siting in an apple orchard with a 
notebook open on his lap? 
Finnegan
ps: My guess is Poetry ran Bower's whiny plaint because in it 
he takes a few potshots the competition, the university-based 
literary journals. Of course, where would Poetry be without
contributors, who are in the main teaching poets. And its college
library subscription base, I imagine, helps keep it out of the red.


From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Aug 23 16:00:39 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 16:00:39 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Olive B O'Conner Fellowship in Creative Writing
Message-ID: <21.22d8318a.2a97ee67@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/23/02 2:48:43 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
halvard at earthlink.net writes:

> Does anyone else think it's strange that complete applications consist of 
30 
>  {    pages of fiction, or nonfiction, but only two pages of poetry? 
>  
>  Nah, that sounds about right. Take two pages of poetry, add water and 
>  seasoning, and you'll end up with about thirty pages of prose. 
A: Two pages?...I could make the cut at sonnet length.
B: Hah, seventeen syllables, a haiku; that's all it would take for me to
    win that fellowship.
C: You guys were born verbose. I'd only send them an epigram.

Finnegan


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri Aug 23 20:15:44 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 20:15:44 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bowers' essay
Message-ID: <30.2bdc4515.2a982a30@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/23/2002 2:49:54 PM Central Daylight Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes: 
> 
> >I've had a chance to look at the recommended essay by Neal Bowers
> >  ("University Poetry, Inc.") in the July issue of *Poetry*, and I'm sorry 
> to
> >  say it strikes me as a waste of paper.  I confess I'm surprised that 
> Poetry
> >  ran such a tired roundup of the usual suspects--yet another generalized
> >  diatribe against poetry and the academy, quite typical of the genre in 
> its
> >  absolute avoidance of specifics.  
> David,
> I got around to the library and read this piece. What strikes
> me with a piece like this is how little Bowers seems to enjoy his 
> own life. He describes his life as a poet in the academy as though
> he were in some kind of penal institution. Perhaps he's clinically
> depressed...
> I don't teach. I'm not part of any English Dept.'s dysfunctional faculty. 
> But I do have a very demanding job that has no room in it whatsoever 
> for art. And I feel privileged (blessed even) every day of my life to have 
> access, however tangentially, to the art of poetry. Literary theory is 
> lit theory. Fashion is fashion. The publishing game is the publishing 
> game. None of that is poetry. I want to slap him and say Wake up, Neal...
> didn't you get into poetry because you desired to put words on paper 
> in certain ways?...doesn't something in that process feed your
> soul at the deepest level? That's it, that's all you were ever promised and 
> 
> that's all you're gonna get. How many pages in the Norton would Frost
> give up for a day back on earth, to be siting in an apple orchard with a 
> notebook open on his lap? 
> Finnegan
> ps: My guess is Poetry ran Bower's whiny plaint because in it 
> he takes a few potshots the competition, the university-based 
> literary journals. Of course, where would Poetry be without
> contributors, who are in the main teaching poets. And its college
> library subscription base, I imagine, helps keep it out of the red.
> _______________________________________________

Neal Bowers no longer teaches, and for years he was the editor of Poet and 
Critic, a university-based journal.
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From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Fri Aug 23 21:31:12 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 18:31:12 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Constant Struggle for Authority "
Message-ID: <3D66E1DF.C1ED4C93@earthlink.net>

The Constant Struggle for Authority


For a time, when I worked at the asylum, there were two Jesuses.  One
kept a trumpet under his bed, the other, a knife.  One had played with
the Boston Symphony, the other was an executive until the voices.

One handed me damp, white boxer shorts balled up in his hand, asking me
not to tell anyone.  I helped the other move his bed so that its head
was to the north, the left-handed knife to the east.

Both had contraband.  One, the knife, the other a book  of matches and
twelve cigarettes - always twelve cigarettes - in a crumpled pack, 
which he would hand to me, confessing and entrusting each time I
accompanied him on the grounds to smoke.  I could not betray either.

One said, "Your mother brings you cigarettes."
The other said, "You have no father."
One said, "Let me call you to battle." 
The other said, "Let me cut the ties to your mother."

At night, two Jesuses slept, one with mellaril, the other with thorazine
in his veins.

I was not there.  My shift began in the morning when the Jesuses awoke
and I called each by his given name.

- Jim

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This message, unless otherwise noted, is impermanent.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes:  jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html


From smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu  Sat Aug 24 00:55:11 2002
From: smith948 at mail.cr.duq.edu (ellen smith)
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 23:55:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "The Constant Struggle for Authority "
In-Reply-To: <3D66E1DF.C1ED4C93@earthlink.net>
References: <3D66E1DF.C1ED4C93@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <a05100300b98cc1fb3912@[165.190.124.251]>

I really like this poem, Jim.  I especially like the way the title 
poses itself in relation to the poem, but not in any clear cut way.
ellen s.
-- 


From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com  Sat Aug 24 09:01:44 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 06:01:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hello
Message-ID: <20020824130144.D58F83947@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Aug 24 09:33:50 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 09:33:50 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Subject: forwarding opportunity (& a question)
Message-ID: <62.24b14f4c.2a98e53e@aol.com>

Has anyone on the list taken or taught an entirely online course?
Care to share your experiences with this kind of e-ducation?
Finnegan
-----
Date:    Fri, 23 Aug 2002 19:50:21 +0100
From:    cris cheek <cris at SLANG.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: forwarding opportunity

The Alliance for Lifelong Learning is a not-for-profit joint online
initiative of Oxford, Stanford, and Yale Universities.

We are currently looking for an online instructor to lead a
continuing-education program on the British Poetry of the First World War
this coming Fall term. Principle poets considered are Rupert Brooke, Julian
Grenfell, Charles Hamilton Sorley, Siegfried Sassoon, Wilfred Owen, Ivor
Gurney, and David Jones. Besides a familiarity with the appropriate literary
issues, candidates should have a broad understanding of the cultural
background of the early twentieth century; knowledge of the history of the
First World War would naturally also be appropriate.

Candidates should be ABD or PhD with an appropriate specialization. Those
interested should send an email to tom.arnold at AllLearn.net with a brief
description of their interests and qualifications, and should attach a CV or
resume.

The expected time commitment is eight hours per week. There are no
geographical restrictions, as all programs are international and entirely
online.

A hiring decision will be made as soon as possible; candidates are urged to
submit their applications immediately.

Tom Arnold
Program Manager
Alliance for Lifelong Learning
tom.arnold at AllLearn.net
phone: 646 825-5235


From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Aug 24 09:42:23 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 09:42:23 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Eamon Grennan poem
Message-ID: <29.2c390251.2a98e73f@aol.com>

WINDOWGRAVE

The dead bee lies on the window-ledge, a relic, 
its amber-yellow body barred in black and its head

tucked in, dust gathering on every follicle
and on the geodesic dome of the head  all tucked in

and tucked away, so neat is death. And the many
flies too, all sizes, lying on their sides as if

asleep, just a quick nap and they'll be up and off
about their business. Souls, we used to say: 

bees, butterflies, moths, wasps, all sorts of flies, 
the air crowded and loud with leftover angels 

but not the spider in its complex web, fallen
from grace but walking on air, vigilant in ways

that harden the heart, getting its appetite back. 


EAMON GRENNAN

---------------------------------
copyright (c) 2002 Eamon Grennan. From "Still Life with Waterfall," published 
by Graywolf Press (http://www.graywolfpress.org)
---------------------------------


From Arielpf123 at aol.com  Sat Aug 24 10:01:15 2002
From: Arielpf123 at aol.com (Arielpf123 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 10:01:15 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Eamon Grennan poem
Message-ID: <97.2ca0c9a6.2a98ebab@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/24/02 9:43:37 AM, JforJames at aol.com writes:

<< WINDOWGRAVE

The dead bee lies on the window-ledge, a relic, 
its amber-yellow body barr >>

thanks for posting this one Finnegan.....i've admired and read Grennan for 
years now...heard him read once too....at The University of Galway in a huge 
drafty hall with high clerestory windows...he reads with verve and 
passion...but on this one occasion was temporarily upstaged by hundreds of 
crows flying in streams past those windows toward nightfall.  (I wrote a poem 
about it).  But his books are all wonderful...do find them.

pat fargnoli


From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Sat Aug 24 11:32:28 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 08:32:28 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Subject: forwarding opportunity (& a question)
References: <62.24b14f4c.2a98e53e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D67A70B.BC0FC5A3@earthlink.net>


JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> 
> Has anyone on the list taken or taught an entirely online course?
> Care to share your experiences with this kind of e-ducation?
> 

Guilty.  A year and a half ago, one of our adjunct faculty approached me
about team-teaching an online intro to creative writing course.  She was
writing a grant for a pilot program that required involvement of a
full-time person, so I, with some trepidation, agreed.  We team-taught
it last fall for the first time and I discovered it was not as taxing as
I'd feared.  The students, of mixed talent and age, get the best of it
as they get feedback and guidance from two people and Amy and I get to
play good cop/bad cop - I usually play bad cop.  The only drawback is
that it's a multi-genre course, though most of the students write
poetry.  The number of students can be daunting - we have 22 signed up
right now for this fall - but attrition takes its toll and we end up
with a manageable 12 to 15.

The site is not yet ready for this semester, but you can get the gist of
it by looking at the site as it was this summer, when Amy taught it
solo: http://fusion.mc.maricopa.edu/creativewriting/

- Jim


From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Sat Aug 24 11:55:44 2002
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 10:55:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others:  Vallejo
Message-ID: <200208241554.g7OFsmI23764@mx7.mx.voyager.net>

?gape 

Today no one has come to inquire, 
nor have they wanted anything from me this afternoon. 

I have not seen a single cemetery flower 
in so happy a procession of lights. 
Forgive me, Lord! I have died so little! 

This afternoon everyone, everyone goes by 
without asking or begging me anything. 

And I do not know what it is they forget, and it is 
heavy in my hands like something stolen. 

I have come to the door, 
and I want to shout at everyone: 
?If you miss something, here it is! 

Because in all the afternoons of this life, 
I do not know how many doors are slammed on a face, 
and my soul takes something that belongs to another. 

Today nobody has come; 
and today I have died so little in the afternoon! 

     --C?sar Vallejo

Translated by John Knoepfle. *Neruda & Vallejo:  Selected Poems*. Ed. Robert
Bly.  Beacon Press, 1971.
==============================

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================



From halvard at earthlink.net  Sat Aug 24 14:59:39 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 14:59:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ashbery on Rivers
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEPDFGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Just in case I forget to send the link, there's a John Ashbery piece
on Larry Rivers in the Arts & Leisure section of tomorrow's NYT.

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sat Aug 24 21:33:16 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 21:33:16 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ashbery on Rivers
Message-ID: <166.12bf44fc.2a998ddc@cs.com>

We should all mourn the death of Larry Rivers--a true spirit whose paintings 
have brightened many of my days, including the reproduction of one (a Rivers 
version of a Camel pack) that I see every day as I go out the door.  My 
admiration for him is inestimable.  God bless him.
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From chryss at silcom.com  Sat Aug 24 22:26:11 2002
From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost)
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 19:26:11 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Can Poetry Matter?" matter?
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEPDFGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B98D8E53.2A83%chryss@silcom.com>

Since I first came to this list during an outbreak of Gioia Fever, I thought
it might be worth mentioning that the 10th anniversary edition of Dana
Gioia's book _Can Poetry Matter?: Essays on Poetry and American Culture_ is
now available. It includes a new introduction.
It's pretty impressive that this book has never been out of print,
considering the state of poetry publishing, and that it continues to get
people all riled up after all this time.

I didn't even know there was such a thing as a degree in Creative Writing
until five years ago. I always assumed one simply became a writer by
writing. Silly, I know.

So, as a relative newcomer, I wonder: It's not a perfect system, but has it
gotten any better out there?

C.



 




From Cadaly at aol.com  Sat Aug 24 23:37:30 2002
From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:37:30 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Subject: forwarding opportunity (& a question)
Message-ID: <ea.2cb9db41.2a99aafa@aol.com>

I have taught extensively online, and developed courseware as well as 
learning environments for many years.

What do you want to know?

Catherine Daly
cadaly at pacbell.net
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From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Sun Aug 25 01:09:05 2002
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 00:09:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Can Poetry Matter?" matter?
Message-ID: <200208250508.g7P588Q98226@mx8.mx.voyager.net>

The title essay of Gioia's book is, I'm sure, the reason it's still in print
and the reason it will be remembered.  But to my mind the book is most
valuable for its other essays--on Donald Justice, Weldon Kees, Elizabeth
Bishop, Robinson Jeffers.  Gioia's a wonderful practical critic, at his best
with a text in front of him; at his weakest, I believe, when he ventures
into polemic or cultural critique.  Maybe it's just harder to tackle such
things--certainly there aren't many essays by any author on the theme of
"Can Poetry Matter" that I think escape the danger of reductiveness.  

Degrees in creative writing have been given out for at least half a century
now (when did Iowa award its first degrees?).  The creative writing world
has certainly changed enormously in that time, and no, it's not a perfect
system, but what is?  From where I sit (a biased vantage, I admit) creative
writing pedagogy has generally come a long way in recent decades.  

Music conservatories and art schools have existed far longer, and have had
their critics accordingly.  This topic is typically rife with red herrings. 
I don't think anyone would argue that Julliard made Miles Davis a great
musician, but I seriously doubt that his studies there harmed him any.  I
don't see why Neal Bowers thinks university studies will harm nascent poets.
 

No formal schooling "makes" anyone great, it ought to go without saying;
schooling just provides training, exposure, some fundamentals to build on.  
All of which one *can* obtain in other ways, just as Louis Armstrong didn't
require Julliard.  But what's the harm that Miles Davis had some formal
training in harmony, counterpoint, and whatnot?  

Hard to see why so many people find it offensive that poets can now go to
school as painters and dancers--and, for that matter, lawyers and doctors--
have long done.  
========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================
----------
>From: Chryss Yost <chryss at silcom.com>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] "Can Poetry Matter?" matter?
>Date: Sat, Aug 24, 2002, 9:26 PM
>

>Since I first came to this list during an outbreak of Gioia Fever, I thought
>it might be worth mentioning that the 10th anniversary edition of Dana
>Gioia's book _Can Poetry Matter?: Essays on Poetry and American Culture_ is
>now available. It includes a new introduction.
>It's pretty impressive that this book has never been out of print,
>considering the state of poetry publishing, and that it continues to get
>people all riled up after all this time.
>
>I didn't even know there was such a thing as a degree in Creative Writing
>until five years ago. I always assumed one simply became a writer by
>writing. Silly, I know.
>
>So, as a relative newcomer, I wonder: It's not a perfect system, but has it
>gotten any better out there?
>
>C.
>


From adead_poet at hotmail.com  Sun Aug 25 05:47:40 2002
From: adead_poet at hotmail.com (jason huff)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 04:47:40 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ashbery on Rivers
Message-ID: <F49amqkhqntKrUV0hCL00024ac1@hotmail.com>

I hadn't heard of Larry Rivers until now, so I did a quick search on the 
internet and checked out some of his work. Pretty good stuff. I'll have to 
look into him in more depth later on. But he has some impressive pieces.

jason


>From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ashbery on Rivers
>Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 21:33:16 EDT
>
>We should all mourn the death of Larry Rivers--a true spirit whose 
>paintings
>have brightened many of my days, including the reproduction of one (a 
>Rivers
>version of a Camel pack) that I see every day as I go out the door.  My
>admiration for him is inestimable.  God bless him.




_________________________________________________________________
MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: 
http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx



From adead_poet at hotmail.com  Sun Aug 25 05:50:27 2002
From: adead_poet at hotmail.com (jason huff)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 04:50:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Can Poetry Matter?" matter?
Message-ID: <F117nvh7wFI1ZG5yoVT00024a8f@hotmail.com>

I've got an earlier edition of Can Poetry Matter?, so I've not seen the new 
introduction. How is it and what does he talk about? Anyone know of a place 
online where I could find it?

jason


>From: Chryss Yost <chryss at silcom.com>
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] "Can Poetry Matter?" matter?
>Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 19:26:11 -0700
>
>Since I first came to this list during an outbreak of Gioia Fever, I 
>thought
>it might be worth mentioning that the 10th anniversary edition of Dana
>Gioia's book _Can Poetry Matter?: Essays on Poetry and American Culture_ is
>now available. It includes a new introduction.
>It's pretty impressive that this book has never been out of print,
>considering the state of poetry publishing, and that it continues to get
>people all riled up after all this time.
>
>I didn't even know there was such a thing as a degree in Creative Writing
>until five years ago. I always assumed one simply became a writer by
>writing. Silly, I know.
>
>So, as a relative newcomer, I wonder: It's not a perfect system, but has it
>gotten any better out there?
>
>C.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




_________________________________________________________________
Join the world?s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. 
http://www.hotmail.com



From adead_poet at hotmail.com  Sun Aug 25 05:57:20 2002
From: adead_poet at hotmail.com (jason huff)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 04:57:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Can Poetry Matter?" matter?
Message-ID: <F171DUK6NZ4fi8I7ies00007c94@hotmail.com>

I found that I liked the title essay, and that it was very pertinent, at 
least from my point of view. And he has some good ideas contained within it. 
But I too found the other essays and reviews just as valuable. Whatever you 
say about Gioia as a poet (I personally enjoy his work, and think The Gods 
of Winter is one of the finest contemporary poetry collections there is), I 
don't think you can find much fault in him as a critic. I've found his 
essays and reviews to be great, and if he isn't remembered as a poet, he'll 
certainly be long remembered as a critic. I always look forward to new 
essays that he has written.

By the way, has anyone read the Fallen Western Star Wars that Foley edited. 
That's what I love about Gioia, just about whatever he says seems to stir up 
some controversy. But I thought he made a good point in the essay. It's 
really a good little book, most of the essays are well thought out. Though 
there are a few that say nothing and only try to take potshots at Gioia.

jason


>"David Graham" <grahamd at mail.ripon.edu>
>The title essay of Gioia's book is, I'm sure, the reason it's still in 
>print
>and the reason it will be remembered.  But to my mind the book is most
>valuable for its other essays--on Donald Justice, Weldon Kees, Elizabeth
>Bishop, Robinson Jeffers.  Gioia's a wonderful practical critic, at his 
>best
>with a text in front of him; at his weakest, I believe, when he ventures
>into polemic or cultural critique.  Maybe it's just harder to tackle such
>things--certainly there aren't many essays by any author on the theme of
>"Can Poetry Matter" that I think escape the danger of reductiveness.
>

_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com



From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Aug 25 10:15:47 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 10:15:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ashbery on Rivers (the link)
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEPJFGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

I guess my memory ain't so bad after all. Here's
the link to Ashbery's piece on Rivers (may be good
only for a relatively short time, so get it now).

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/25/arts/design/25ASHB.html

Hal                Serving the tri-state area.

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard



From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Aug 25 11:17:32 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 11:17:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Points on the Curve to Find"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEPMFGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Points on the Curve to Find

Our father was a small peasant farmer, poor but not needy. Moreover,
as one of the agarians among whom mother had been condemned to live

used to say, only a tool to clarify matters already touched upon
was necessary, altho many students were more aware of current discussions

within the field of gravity, whose character could meet the test at all points.
The miracle-working new breath of Liberty, breathed after a monstrous

accumulation of monotonous defeats, found them guilty on all counts and
may have caused temporary difficulties on two points functioning

to the right of the vector--a function used to create that same year's clarification
of cycloidal curves my father let lie among his bottom desk-drawer papers

all those years, since C may be given but P cuts in on some occasions, no matter
how finely tuned the dial. Imagine Descartes, his normal lunacies

easy to position on the regression line, reluctant to have sons
any shorter than he was. My father and mother were saying, "Wireless?"

But my options for success raised several questions concerned with
the curve, which, as the names implies, would be cut

at two consecutive points, loosing [sic] contact with his mother,
who, after all, had burned every last photo of his father.

They find things they don't like become a sort of totem for them,
helpful in finding the height of the other twin,

the one they'd never bothered to stand against the doorjamb to measure.
No matter how fast they walked, the lanky diagnostician was always

one step ahead of them. Your task, they always said, is to
find out who you are--and where. And maybe . . . maybe, why.



Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Aug 25 11:45:24 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 11:45:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: John Ashbery, "Caravaggio and His Followers"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEPPFGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Caravaggio and His Followers

You are my most favorite artist. Though I know
very little about your work. Some of your followers I know:
Mattia Preti, who toiled so hard to so little
effect (though it was enough). Luca Giordano, involved
with some of the darkest reds ever painted, and lucent greens,
thought he had discovered the secret of the foxgloves.
But it was too late. They had already disappeared
because they had been planted in some other place.
Someone sent some bread up
along with a flask of wine, to cheer him up,
but the old, old secret of the foxgloves, never
to be divined, won't ever go away.

I say, if you were toting hay up the side of a stack
of it, *that* might be Italian. Or then again, not.
We have these things in Iowa,
too, and in the untrained reaches of the eyelid
hung out, at evening, over next to nothing. What was it she had said,
back there, at the beginning? "The flowers
of the lady next door are beginning to take flight,
and what will poor Robin do then?" It's true, they were blasting off
every two seconds like missiles from a launching pad, and 
nobody wept, or even cared.
Look out the window, some time, though, and you'll see
where the difference has been made. The song of the shrubbery
can't drown out the mystery of what we are made of,
of how we go along, first interested by one thing and then another
until we come to a wide avenue whose median
is crowded with trees whose madly peeling bark is the color of a roan,
perhaps, or an Irish setter. One can wait on the curb for the rest
of one's life, for all anyone cares, or one can cross
when the light changes to green, as in the sapphire folds
of a shot-silk bodice Luca Giordano might have bothered with.
*Now* it's life. But, as Henny Penny said to Turkey Lurkey, something
is hovering over us, wanting to destroy us, but waiting,
though for what, nobody knows. And I shall
not forget to come again later, much later, to encourage
this bit of seashore
because I think it deserves it. It engages me, at any rate,
which is more than most paintings do when they are taken down
and out and set on the grass, which impoverishes them.

In the night of the museum, though, some whisper like stars
when the guards have gone home, talking freely to one another.
"Why did that man stare, and stare? All afternoon it seemed he stared
at me, though he obviously saw nothing. Only a fragment of a vision
of a lost love, next to a pool. I couldn't deal with it
much longer, though luckily I didn't have to. The experience
is ending. The time for standing to one side is near
now, very near."

--John Ashbery

fr. *The Paris Review*, Spring 2000


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Aug 25 11:56:41 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 11:56:41 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Can Poetry Matter?" matter?
References: <F171DUK6NZ4fi8I7ies00007c94@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <000d01c24c50$021dd780$671bfea9@j1c1k6>

No comment on Gioia as a critic except that, like all critics writing for
the mainstream, he severely neglects innovative poetry.  About his lead
essay, I'll say only that one clear failure of it is that it did not inspire
any other Atlantic-level magazine to do a follow-up, or the Atlantic itself
to later do anything serious toward helping poetry.  And I am aware that
Joseph Epstein and probably one or two others wrote responses to Gioia's
essay, but only in spaces they would have been writing in, anyway.  That is,
the New Yorker didn't suddenly or even eventually invite someone
knowledgeable to give a different angle on poetry than Gioia's.  That I'm
aware of.  In saying this, I'm not faulting Gioia, but the mainstream--and
the way things are.

--Bob G.



----- Original Message -----
From: "jason huff" <adead_poet at hotmail.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, August 25, 2002 5:57 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "Can Poetry Matter?" matter?


> I found that I liked the title essay, and that it was very pertinent, at
> least from my point of view. And he has some good ideas contained within
it.
> But I too found the other essays and reviews just as valuable. Whatever
you
> say about Gioia as a poet (I personally enjoy his work, and think The Gods
> of Winter is one of the finest contemporary poetry collections there is),
I
> don't think you can find much fault in him as a critic. I've found his
> essays and reviews to be great, and if he isn't remembered as a poet,
he'll
> certainly be long remembered as a critic. I always look forward to new
> essays that he has written.
>
> By the way, has anyone read the Fallen Western Star Wars that Foley
edited.
> That's what I love about Gioia, just about whatever he says seems to stir
up
> some controversy. But I thought he made a good point in the essay. It's
> really a good little book, most of the essays are well thought out. Though
> there are a few that say nothing and only try to take potshots at Gioia.
>
> jason
>
>
> >"David Graham" <grahamd at mail.ripon.edu>
> >The title essay of Gioia's book is, I'm sure, the reason it's still in
> >print
> >and the reason it will be remembered.  But to my mind the book is most
> >valuable for its other essays--on Donald Justice, Weldon Kees, Elizabeth
> >Bishop, Robinson Jeffers.  Gioia's a wonderful practical critic, at his
> >best
> >with a text in front of him; at his weakest, I believe, when he ventures
> >into polemic or cultural critique.  Maybe it's just harder to tackle such
> >things--certainly there aren't many essays by any author on the theme of
> >"Can Poetry Matter" that I think escape the danger of reductiveness.
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Sun Aug 25 12:07:58 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 09:07:58 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Can Poetry Matter?" matter?
References: <F171DUK6NZ4fi8I7ies00007c94@hotmail.com> <000d01c24c50$021dd780$671bfea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <3D6900DD.D6BA0499@earthlink.net>

Bob Grumman wrote:
> 
> No comment on Gioia as a critic except that, like all critics writing for
> the mainstream, he severely neglects innovative poetry.  About his lead
> essay, I'll say only that one clear failure of it is that it did not inspire
> any other Atlantic-level magazine to do a follow-up, or the Atlantic itself
> to later do anything serious toward helping poetry.  And I am aware that
> Joseph Epstein and probably one or two others wrote responses to Gioia's
> essay, but only in spaces they would have been writing in, anyway.  That is,
> the New Yorker didn't suddenly or even eventually invite someone
> knowledgeable to give a different angle on poetry than Gioia's.  That I'm
> aware of.  In saying this, I'm not faulting Gioia, but the mainstream--and
> the way things are.
> 

The main stream has many small streams, creeks, ditches, rivulets - even
raindrops - that make it the main stream, and the main stream itself has
tributaries, run-offs, pools - even maelstroms - and joins oceans, most
of which touch upon each other or connect in some way.  Then there are
marshes, and great salt lakes.

- Jim


From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Sun Aug 25 12:13:33 2002
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 11:13:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Poetry?
Message-ID: <200208251612.g7PGCZw49937@mx12.mx.voyager.net>

>
>The main stream has many small streams, creeks, ditches, rivulets - even
>raindrops - that make it the main stream, and the main stream itself has
>tributaries, run-offs, pools - even maelstroms - and joins oceans, most
>of which touch upon each other or connect in some way.  Then there are
>marshes, and great salt lakes.
>
>- Jim


Yes, and if you look at it from high enough, it all looks the same--just
water.  More interesting to poke about in the eddies and tributaries in
one's canoe than to attempt comment from 35,000 feet.  
========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Sun Aug 25 12:19:56 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 09:19:56 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Poetry?
References: <200208251612.g7PGCZw49937@mx12.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <3D6903AC.ECD3FB44@earthlink.net>


David Graham wrote:
> 
> >
> >The main stream has many small streams, creeks, ditches, rivulets - even
> >raindrops - that make it the main stream, and the main stream itself has
> >tributaries, run-offs, pools - even maelstroms - and joins oceans, most
> >of which touch upon each other or connect in some way.  Then there are
> >marshes, and great salt lakes.
> >
> >- Jim
> 
> Yes, and if you look at it from high enough, it all looks the same--just
> water.  More interesting to poke about in the eddies and tributaries in
> one's canoe than to attempt comment from 35,000 feet.

And, yes.  Grumman, I think, is saying there are isolated bodies of
water, one of which is named "Innovative Poetry."  There's innovation
everywhere, even at 35,000 feet.

The telescope has two ends.

- Jim


From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Aug 25 12:51:08 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 12:51:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <3D6903AC.ECD3FB44@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEACFHAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

   
{    And, yes.  Grumman, I think, is saying there are isolated bodies of
{    water, one of which is named "Innovative Poetry."  There's innovation
{    everywhere, even at 35,000 feet.
{    
{    The telescope has two ends.
{    
{    - Jim

What a nice word--"innovation."

There's "in" there, and "inn" and "nova"
and "ova" and "ion" "on" and "ovation." And 
that's reading only from left to right.

What more could anyone, particularly
a writer, want?

Hal         "is there enough silence here for a glass of water"
                                  --David Antin
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Aug 25 13:35:11 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 13:35:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Poetry?
References: <200208251612.g7PGCZw49937@mx12.mx.voyager.net> <3D6903AC.ECD3FB44@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <004801c24c5d$c5976ca0$671bfea9@j1c1k6>

Jim Cervantes wrote:

> > >The main stream has many small streams, creeks, ditches, rivulets -
even
> > >raindrops - that make it the main stream, and the main stream itself
has
> > >tributaries, run-offs, pools - even maelstroms - and joins oceans, most
> > >of which touch upon each other or connect in some way.  Then there are
> > >marshes, and great salt lakes.

No argument at all with the above.

David Graham wrote:

> >
> > Yes, and if you look at it from high enough, it all looks the same--just
> > water.  More interesting to poke about in the eddies and tributaries in
> > one's canoe than to attempt comment from 35,000 feet.

Most interesting, however, to (try to) do both.  The trap the one who canoes
exclusively has to avoid is in thinking the eddies and tributaries he
intensifies into are all the waterways there are.

Jim came in again with:

> And, yes.  Grumman, I think, is saying there are isolated bodies of
> water, one of which is named "Innovative Poetry."

I never said anything like that, I hope.  But I do believe that brooks are
different from rivers, rivers  from lakes and lakes from oceans, etc.,
however interconnected they all may be.

Jim: "here's innovation everywhere, even at 35,000 feet."

Right. And everybody's a poet.

But when I speak of innovation, I mean significant innovation, not in being
the very first to write a poem that contains exactly 17 anapaests and 34
iambics, or the like.  (And, for the twentieth time, let it be known that I
count innovation simply one of many good things one can do as a poet, not
the sine qua non of superior poetry.  One can be a poet of the first rank
without ever doing anything significantly new.)

> The telescope has two ends.

> - Jim

Right.  And Gioia and everyone else I know of who has written about poetry
for the large-circulation magazines in the past two or three decades pretty
much ignores both of them.

                                                             --Bob G.




From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Sun Aug 25 13:43:43 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 10:43:43 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Poetry?
References: <200208251612.g7PGCZw49937@mx12.mx.voyager.net> <3D6903AC.ECD3FB44@earthlink.net> <004801c24c5d$c5976ca0$671bfea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <3D69174F.573574DE@earthlink.net>


Bob Grumman wrote:
> 
> 
> Jim came in again with:
> 
> > And, yes.  Grumman, I think, is saying there are isolated bodies of
> > water, one of which is named "Innovative Poetry."
> 
> I never said anything like that, I hope. 

Nope, not literally, but it was heavily implied.

> But I do believe that brooks are
> different from rivers, rivers  from lakes and lakes from oceans, etc.,
> however interconnected they all may be.
> 
> Jim: "here's innovation everywhere, even at 35,000 feet."
> 
> Right. And everybody's a poet.

I'm going to ignore that.

> > The telescope has two ends.
> 
> > - Jim
> 
> Right.  And Gioia and everyone else I know of who has written about poetry
> for the large-circulation magazines in the past two or three decades pretty
> much ignores both of them.

And what lens are you looking through, Bob? (rhetorical question)

- Jim


From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Aug 25 14:19:55 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 14:19:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Poetry?
References: <200208251612.g7PGCZw49937@mx12.mx.voyager.net> <3D6903AC.ECD3FB44@earthlink.net> <004801c24c5d$c5976ca0$671bfea9@j1c1k6> <3D69174F.573574DE@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <007601c24c64$03ddbfe0$671bfea9@j1c1k6>

> > Right.  And Gioia and everyone else I know of who has written about
poetry
> > for the large-circulation magazines in the past two or three decades
pretty
> > much ignores both (ends of the telescope).
>
> And what lens are you looking through, Bob? (rhetorical question)
>
> - Jim

Well, I'll take it as non-rhetorical.  As I indicated in my previous post, I
try to look through both ends.  I also look without a scope.  Where one aims
the scope or the unaided eyes is important, too.  No one can look
everywhere, but I do try to skim everything I can but never claim to have
seen everything, look in detail at the things that interest me, and at least
read a lot of things that don't much interest me.

--Bob G.




From chryss at silcom.com  Sun Aug 25 14:24:39 2002
From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 11:24:39 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <004801c24c5d$c5976ca0$671bfea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <B98E6EF7.2A9E%chryss@silcom.com>

> From: "Bob Grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>> The telescope has two ends.
>> - Jim
> 
> Right.  And Gioia and everyone else I know of who has written about poetry
> for the large-circulation magazines in the past two or three decades pretty
> much ignores both of them.
> 
>                                                            --Bob G.

Aren't unsubstantiated inflammatory statements one of the hallmarks of weak
criticism?



From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Sun Aug 25 15:32:25 2002
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 14:32:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Poetry?
Message-ID: <200208251931.g7PJVSS24465@mx17.mx.voyager.net>


> The telescope has two ends.

> - Jim

Right.  And Gioia and everyone else I know of who has written about
poetry
for the large-circulation magazines in the past two or three decades
pretty
much ignores both of them.

                                                             --Bob G.
----------------------------------
Here's a rather perfect example of what I meant by looking at the scene
from 35,000 feet--"Gioia and everyone else":  geez!  round up the usual
suspects. . . .

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================



From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Sun Aug 25 15:52:09 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 12:52:09 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcing: The Salt River Review, Fall, 2002
Message-ID: <3D693569.BC4AAA1E@earthlink.net>

I was going to wait until September 1st to announce this, but it's ready
and I've forgotten the rationale for waiting:

Announcing the Fall, 2002, issue of The Salt River Review with:

Poetry by M.T.C. Cronin, Tess Gallagher, Jascha Hoffman, Laura Jensen,
Halvard Johnson, Prasenjit Maiti, Walt McDonald, Paulann Petersen,
Carlos Reyes, Leslie Shinn, Isi Unikowski, & Kathrine Varnes. 

Fiction by F. Brinley Bruton, Avital Gad-Cykman, & Ian Randall Wilson.

And, Greg Simon on John Ashbery and the Poetry of Nothing.

The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org/


James Cervantes:  jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html


From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Aug 25 17:08:51 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 17:08:51 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcing: The Salt River Review, Fall, 2002
In-Reply-To: <3D693569.BC4AAA1E@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEAFFHAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Well, the traditional rationale is that if you wait all things will
come to you, but I doubt that you want *all* things coming
to you anyway so it's just as well.

Hal

{    I was going to wait until September 1st to announce this, but it's ready
{    and I've forgotten the rationale for waiting:
{    
{    Announcing the Fall, 2002, issue of The Salt River Review with:
{    
{    Poetry by M.T.C. Cronin, Tess Gallagher, Jascha Hoffman, Laura Jensen,
{    Halvard Johnson, Prasenjit Maiti, Walt McDonald, Paulann Petersen,
{    Carlos Reyes, Leslie Shinn, Isi Unikowski, & Kathrine Varnes. 
{    
{    Fiction by F. Brinley Bruton, Avital Gad-Cykman, & Ian Randall Wilson.
{    
{    And, Greg Simon on John Ashbery and the Poetry of Nothing.
{    
{    The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org/
{    
{    
{    James Cervantes:  jvcervantes at earthlink.net
{    Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
{    RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Aug 25 17:35:33 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 17:35:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Poetry?
References: <B98E6EF7.2A9E%chryss@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <009001c24c7f$5823e460$671bfea9@j1c1k6>

> > Right.  And Gioia and everyone else I know of who has written about
poetry
> > for the large-circulation magazines in the past two or three decades
pretty
> > much ignores both of them.

> >                                                            --Bob G.

> Aren't unsubstantiated inflammatory statements one of the hallmarks of
weak
> criticism?

I don't know.  I do know that taking mildly critical statements advanced as
opinions (to an internet discussion group!) to be criticism indicates a
weak mind--or perhaps a good mind in a weak moment.  Why, incidentally, have
you not disparaged the unsubstantiated praise that has been sent Gioia's
way?

--Bob G.





_______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sun Aug 25 17:36:46 2002
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 17:36:46 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Poetry?
Message-ID: <16c.12b7cd1f.2a9aa7ee@cs.com>

I'm sick and tired of hearing about this canned poetry.  Personally, I like 
mine fresh off the shelf and fresh-frozen if I can't get it fresh.  But 
canned poetry is ok too, as long as the labels are on it and there are no 
dents or swellings.  I think Gioia did us all a service by bringing canned 
poetry to our attention, and it does matter.  My only problem is that when 
you read it you sometimes get a little green piece stuck between your teeth, 
you know, back in there where you can't even dig it out with your little 
fingernail and after a day or two it gets kind of icky.

R. S. Roseannadanna
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From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Sun Aug 25 17:38:43 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 14:38:43 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcing: The Salt River Review, Fall, 2002
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEAFFHAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3D694E63.39DAC8E9@earthlink.net>

Yep, it wouldn't have worked that way in this case.  Well, it might, if
the cats knew exactly which keys to hit.  Mostly, they know how to turn
the computer on or off.

- Jim

Halvard Johnson wrote:
> 
> Well, the traditional rationale is that if you wait all things will
> come to you, but I doubt that you want *all* things coming
> to you anyway so it's just as well.
> 
> Hal
> 
> {    I was going to wait until September 1st to announce this, but it's ready
> {    and I've forgotten the rationale for waiting:
> {
> {    Announcing the Fall, 2002, issue of The Salt River Review with:
> {
> {    Poetry by M.T.C. Cronin, Tess Gallagher, Jascha Hoffman, Laura Jensen,
> {    Halvard Johnson, Prasenjit Maiti, Walt McDonald, Paulann Petersen,
> {    Carlos Reyes, Leslie Shinn, Isi Unikowski, & Kathrine Varnes.
> {
> {    Fiction by F. Brinley Bruton, Avital Gad-Cykman, & Ian Randall Wilson.
> {
> {    And, Greg Simon on John Ashbery and the Poetry of Nothing.
> {
> {    The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org/
> {
> {
> {    James Cervantes:  jvcervantes at earthlink.net
> {    Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
> {    RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html
> {    _______________________________________________
> {    New-Poetry mailing list
> {    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> {    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From chryss at silcom.com  Sun Aug 25 17:56:12 2002
From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 14:56:12 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Poetry?
In-Reply-To: <009001c24c7f$5823e460$671bfea9@j1c1k6>
Message-ID: <B98EA08C.2AB3%chryss@silcom.com>

>>> Right.  And Gioia and everyone else I know of who has written about
> poetry
>>> for the large-circulation magazines in the past two or three decades
> pretty
>>> much ignores both of them.
> 
>>>                                                            --Bob G.
> 
>> Aren't unsubstantiated inflammatory statements one of the hallmarks of
> weak
>> criticism?
> 
> I don't know.  I do know that taking mildly critical statements advanced as
> opinions (to an internet discussion group!) to be criticism indicates a
> weak mind--or perhaps a good mind in a weak moment.  Why, incidentally, have
> you not disparaged the unsubstantiated praise that has been sent Gioia's
> way?
> 
> --Bob G.


If praise had been sent to "Gioia and everyone else," that would be equally
as meaningless. However, most of the praise has been followed with examples
of what the praiser liked and why, whereas you seem to be an ol'fashioned
telescope hog. 

In any case, my question had less to do with Gioia's criticism than with his
observations regarding poetry and MFA programs and the general question: Can
poetry matter? Since these programs were made ten years ago--before the
explosion of pay-to-enter contests, journalettes, and the Internet, to name
a few--does poetry seem to matter more? Less? How? Why?

It's a big, vague question from a relative newcomer, but I'd be interested
to know what y'all think.

C.



From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com  Sun Aug 25 18:50:32 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 15:50:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Poetry?
Message-ID: <20020825225033.10A5B3943@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Aug 25 18:52:13 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 18:52:13 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Poetry?
References: <B98EA08C.2AB3%chryss@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <00e301c24c8a$0de4ee20$671bfea9@j1c1k6>

> If praise had been sent to "Gioia and everyone else," that would be
equally
> as meaningless.

Actually, I said, "Gioia and everyone else who has written about poetry for
the large-circulation magazines in the past two or three decades."  How many
is that?  Three?  Four?  (And I mean at length, which I think I imply.)

However, most of the praise has been followed with examples
> of what the praiser liked and why, whereas you seem to be an ol'fashioned
> telescope hog.

I didn't get that impression but deleted the posts.

> In any case, my question had less to do with Gioia's criticism than with
his
> observations regarding poetry and MFA programs and the general question:
Can
> poetry matter? Since these programs were made ten years ago--before the
> explosion of pay-to-enter contests, journalettes, and the Internet, to
name
> a few--does poetry seem to matter more? Less? How? Why?

No answers here.  I continue to believe I was accurate in saying that just
about no follow-ups to Gioia's article have been written in mainstream
magazines, which suggests poetry doesn't mean much to the general public.

> It's a big, vague question from a relative newcomer, but I'd be interested
> to know what y'all think.

I think serious poetry has not mattered to any but the few ever, but that it
has always mattered to a fair portion of the reading public, and that poetry
that has not broken free of simple representationality (in a way somewhat
like some schools of painting and sculpture did) still matters to that
portion of the reading public.  Fewer will ever appreciate the more
challenging poetry for the same reasons fewer appreciate
non-representational painting, and music that goes beyond the simpler
harmonics, and post-algebraic math.

--Bob G.




From jpjones at ihug.com.au  Sun Aug 25 19:14:02 2002
From: jpjones at ihug.com.au (Jill Jones)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 09:14:02 +1000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dorothy Hewett
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEPPFGAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <E17j6aA-0003xL-00@new-smtp2.ihug.com.au>

Just passing on the news that Australian poet, playwright, novelist and 
memoirist, Dorothy Hewett died yesterday. Some of you may be familiar 
with her work.

There are some tributes to her in the Sydney Morning Herald:

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/08/25/1030053009811.html

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/08/25/1030053009320.html


_______________________________________________________
Jill Jones
http://homepages.com.au/~jpjones

Latest book: Screens Jets Heaven. Available now from Salt Publishing
http://www.saltpublishing.com

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From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Sun Aug 25 20:29:28 2002
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 19:29:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Career Paths for Poets
Message-ID: <200208260028.g7Q0SWX77651@mx8.mx.voyager.net>

For those poets who yearn to leave the academy behind, here's one idea from
Poetry Daily:

"Aaron Fagan was a machinist in Rochester before moving to Chicago where he
is now an Assistant Editor for Poetry."
========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================



From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Sun Aug 25 21:08:53 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 18:08:53 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Career Paths for Poets
References: <200208260028.g7Q0SWX77651@mx8.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <3D697FA4.406D3E35@earthlink.net>


David Graham wrote:
> 
> For those poets who yearn to leave the academy behind, here's one idea from
> Poetry Daily:
> 
> "Aaron Fagan was a machinist in Rochester before moving to Chicago where he
> is now an Assistant Editor for Poetry."

Was that a parallel move?

- Jim


From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Sun Aug 25 21:11:53 2002
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 20:11:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Career Paths for Poets
Message-ID: <200208260110.g7Q1AuD03175@mx5.mx.voyager.net>

> "Aaron Fagan was a machinist in Rochester before moving to Chicago where he
>> is now an Assistant Editor for Poetry."
>
>Was that a parallel move?
>
>- Jim

No, I'm pretty sure there was a pay cut.

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================


----------


From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Sun Aug 25 21:22:26 2002
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 20:22:26 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bowers' essay
Message-ID: <200208260121.g7Q1LTX34494@mx13.mx.voyager.net>

>David,
>I got around to the library and read this piece. What strikes
>me with a piece like this is how little Bowers seems to enjoy his 
>own life. He describes his life as a poet in the academy as though
>he were in some kind of penal institution.

Yes.  I've been a teacher long enough to know the drawbacks of the job
fairly well, but good heavens--I spent a chunk of time today re-reading
William Blake and Langston Hughes, and I was *working*.  

     Mock on, mock on, 'Tis all in vain.
     You throw the sand against the wind,
     And the wind blows it back again.

An administrator once remarked to a search committee I served on that it's
suprising how many college professors don't even seem to *like* young people
very much.  Yes, it is.  And how many academics spend their careers
despising their chosen vocations.  Surprising because, yes, no one's forcing
us into this jail. 

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================



From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Sun Aug 25 21:23:45 2002
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 21:23:45 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] jop ops
Message-ID: <18d.d133889.2a9add21@aol.com>

All,

Tupelo Press is looking for an experienced grant writer (freelance or 
part-time), and an experienced publicist, freelance, part-time or full-time. 
If you know of anyone who may be interested, or you are anyone who may be 
interested, please let me know. 

Thnx,
Jeffrey Levine


From ganesha at dezzanet.net.au  Mon Aug 26 01:53:35 2002
From: ganesha at dezzanet.net.au (ganesha)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 13:53:35 +0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Zan re career academics
References: <200208260121.g7Q1LTX34494@mx13.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <019a01c24cc4$ecdd1cd0$69864cca@JROSS2>

Perhaps "No One" is forcing us into it, but I have so often seen people
follow the academic path from high school on (as if there were no other
choice open to them), and when in their late thirties or early forties
suddenly stop, look around and wonder what the hell they have been doing
with their lives all these years?  When they do figure it out, IF they do
figure it out, there's often not enough strength or will to change one's
path, to "re-train."  What seems to remain is the ability to listlessly
complain -- which would be sad if it weren't so awful (both the commentary
and the waste of time) -- and/or to torture those coming up the ranks behind
them.

Zan
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at mail.ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 9:22 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bowers' essay


> >David,
> >I got around to the library and read this piece. What strikes
> >me with a piece like this is how little Bowers seems to enjoy his
> >own life. He describes his life as a poet in the academy as though
> >he were in some kind of penal institution.
>
> Yes.  I've been a teacher long enough to know the drawbacks of the job
> fairly well, but good heavens--I spent a chunk of time today re-reading
> William Blake and Langston Hughes, and I was *working*.
>
>      Mock on, mock on, 'Tis all in vain.
>      You throw the sand against the wind,
>      And the wind blows it back again.
>
> An administrator once remarked to a search committee I served on that it's
> suprising how many college professors don't even seem to *like* young
people
> very much.  Yes, it is.  And how many academics spend their careers
> despising their chosen vocations.  Surprising because, yes, no one's
forcing
> us into this jail.
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> Home Page:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
> Poetry Library:
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
> ========================================
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Aug 26 09:02:08 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 09:02:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fun with your new search engine
In-Reply-To: <40.22986041.2a9433b5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3D69EE90.29124.4DD503@localhost>

http://www.kartoo.com/


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From marcus at designerglass.com  Mon Aug 26 09:02:08 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 09:02:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fun with your new search engine
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20020823130257.00aac510@postoffice.brown.edu>
Message-ID: <3D69EE90.30698.4DD3FC@localhost>

http://www.kartoo.com/


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon Aug 26 09:06:36 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 09:06:36 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Zan re career academics
In-Reply-To: <019a01c24cc4$ecdd1cd0$69864cca@JROSS2>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEAOFHAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

And I remember someone at the Univ. of Chicago pointing out, way
back when I was a grad student, that one could be born at UC in
the university hospital, proceed to day-care and lab school, enter
the college at as early an age as possible, pursue graduate studies,
get married in Rockefeller Chapel, spends one's life teaching at UC,
and be buried out of Rockefeller Chapel as well. Now *there* is
an academic life.

Hal         "is there enough silence here for a glass of water"
                                  --David Antin
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard
  
{    Perhaps "No One" is forcing us into it, but I have so often seen people
{    follow the academic path from high school on (as if there were no other
{    choice open to them), and when in their late thirties or early forties
{    suddenly stop, look around and wonder what the hell they have been doing
{    with their lives all these years?  When they do figure it out, IF they do
{    figure it out, there's often not enough strength or will to change one's
{    path, to "re-train."  What seems to remain is the ability to listlessly
{    complain -- which would be sad if it weren't so awful (both the commentary
{    and the waste of time) -- and/or to torture those coming up the ranks behind
{    them.
{    
{    Zan
{    ----- Original Message -----
{    From: "David Graham" <grahamd at mail.ripon.edu>
{    To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
{    Sent: Monday, August 26, 2002 9:22 AM
{    Subject: [New-Poetry] Bowers' essay
{    
{    
{    > >David,
{    > >I got around to the library and read this piece. What strikes
{    > >me with a piece like this is how little Bowers seems to enjoy his
{    > >own life. He describes his life as a poet in the academy as though
{    > >he were in some kind of penal institution.
{    >
{    > Yes.  I've been a teacher long enough to know the drawbacks of the job
{    > fairly well, but good heavens--I spent a chunk of time today re-reading
{    > William Blake and Langston Hughes, and I was *working*.
{    >
{    >      Mock on, mock on, 'Tis all in vain.
{    >      You throw the sand against the wind,
{    >      And the wind blows it back again.
{    >
{    > An administrator once remarked to a search committee I served on that it's
{    > suprising how many college professors don't even seem to *like* young
{    people
{    > very much.  Yes, it is.  And how many academics spend their careers
{    > despising their chosen vocations.  Surprising because, yes, no one's
{    forcing
{    > us into this jail.
{    >
{    > ========================================
{    > David Graham
{    > grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
{    > Home Page:
{    > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
{    > Poetry Library:
{    > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
{    > ========================================
{    >
{    > _______________________________________________
{    > New-Poetry mailing list
{    > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
{    
{    _______________________________________________
{    New-Poetry mailing list
{    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
{    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Mon Aug 26 10:34:45 2002
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 09:34:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Career academics
Message-ID: <B98FA6B5.33D5%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Hal's comment reminds me of an epigram I wrote as a grad student.


        Academic

His whole life passed in school, and, by degrees,
>From boyhood to his final childishness
More cradled in its snug parentheses,
He falls at length into this last recess.



Paul Lake




>And I remember someone at the Univ. of Chicago pointing out, way
>back when I was a grad student, that one could be born at UC in
the university hospital, proceed to day-care and lab school, enter
the college at as early an age as possible, pursue graduate studies,
get married in Rockefeller Chapel, spends one's life teaching at UC,
and be buried out of Rockefeller Chapel as well. Now *there* is
an academic life.

Hal         



From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Aug 26 12:57:34 2002
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 12:57:34 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Subject: forwarding opportunity (& a question)
Message-ID: <131.12ea8476.2a9bb7fe@aol.com>

In a message dated 8/24/02 11:39:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Cadaly at aol.com 
writes:

> I have taught extensively online, and developed courseware as well as 
>  learning environments for many years.
>  
>  What do you want to know?
>  
Catherine,
what's good and bad about teaching/learning in that environment.
Nothing elaborate, just looking for a few observations.
Jim F


From Cadaly at aol.com  Mon Aug 26 18:50:31 2002
From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 18:50:31 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Subject: forwarding opportunity (& a question)
Message-ID: <105.1ae3acf5.2a9c0ab7@aol.com>

things about online learning:

it is difficult online to exhort a student to do something completely outside 
the realm of his or her previous experience; for this reason, online is not a 
good place for the beginner in anything conceptual -- to try to counter this, 
I think online chat meetings -- and sometimes even phone conversations -- are 
necessary supplements.  online teaching is "inside the box."  experienced 
students are more successful -- their expectations are raised

the online environment is not a good place for the uncommitted or insecure 
student, because it is too easy not to log in and do the work; you may have 
dissatisfied students who never bother to articulate their dissatisfaction, 
and failing students who never attempt to change their ways or raise their 
grades (which baffles me)

if a student has difficulty with English or with reading, doesn't enjoy 
reading or literature, or has been told he or she has a learning style or 
competency which does not include lots of solitary, silent reading of 
difficult texts, he or she should not be in an online English or writing 
class

while a great deal of attention has been devoted (in online teaching venues) 
to ways in which receiving criticism in writing / on screen can be difficult 
for students, more often I have students deliberately handing in work late so 
that other students do not comment on it, and even so that I cannot comment 
on it -- I have only had this experience teaching online, and it holds for 
paper-writing as well as creative writing -- generally this type of 
unsecurity is rapidly overcome in "on the ground" classes

I recognise that the academic support teams are incredibly underpaid and that 
I am unusual in that I have software development experience.  That said, at 
no institution have I experienced 1) adequate archiving, 2) enough developer 
and administrative access (to the software) for instructors, 3) fast and easy 
grading mechanisms, 4) truly technical technical support, 5) an 
administrative attitude which is not patronizing.  

these things have all been pretty negative -- the positive things include:

1) the only way to adjunct full time without going insane, 
2) more and more courses and content which used to be remedial or covered in 
high school are being required by colleges -- if offered online, they would 
punish prepared students less,
3) a good spot for experimental content which couldn't get full enrollment 
"on the ground" locally -- it can draw students from all over the world
4) the students who make it through the term (I've never had less than 50% 
attrition rate, and this is encouraged by the institutions I teach for) are 
truly wonderful -- I have students who couldn't take classes or take these 
wild classes (surrealism, film and lit, poetry workshop not taught from a 
stupid "how to write poetry" book) any other way

Rgds,
Catherine Daly
cadaly at pacbell.net
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From MillB at aol.com  Mon Aug 26 19:47:25 2002
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 19:47:25 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Subject: forwarding opportunity (& a question)
Message-ID: <105.1ae48353.2a9c180d@aol.com>

Greetings:

I had a terrible experience teaching online.  At first, it seemed a perfect 
opportunity.  I was nearly a full-fledged computer geek, having tested 
software for years and done tech writing freelance for software applications.

It seemed like a dream.  I wouldn't have to drive 50 miles each way to work.

It started with my class notes.  I had a week to learn the software, organize 
a web site and plan my strategy.  

It was impossible.  

Looking back, if I had had a semester to prep for it or some support in 
translating a classroom into an online classroom, I might have  liked it. 

As it was, it seemed as if everything took 100 times longer online than in 
the real world.  For example, setting up groups and discussion in class took 
a few minutes.  Setting up online chats and members and monitoring the 
discussions took weeks to prep.  Hours to monitor.  I had to consider how 
best to respond to students.  I had to pair up students, schedule chat times. 
 

The list of things to consider was endless.

I felt lost without directions.

Every day, my mailbox was filled with e-mail queries from students.  Papers 
were sent in different file formats or didn't come through when I printed 
them out to read and grade.  Students "claimed" to send work that I didn't 
receive.  And I had no way to track it.  Students had trouble with the web 
site.  Passwords.  I had little support from the university.

It was, in short, a nightmare.

Just like in a normal classroom, there are techniques and organizational 
processes specificially that must be learned for the online environment.  

For a 3 hour class, I found myself spending upwards of 40 hours a week (on 
that class alone!)  I felt disconnected with some students.  Saturated by 
e-mails from others.

For advice, I would offer this: Only accept an online class if you have 
technical support, advance prep time and training in how to manage teaching 
online. I also found that NO face-time with my students except for the 
initial meeting and the final exam was a huge mistake.

Then again, I was part of a pilot project and this all happened a few years 
ago.  By now, perhaps, online learning has matured and is much more of a 
science.


Mill


From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Aug 27 08:51:58 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 08:51:58 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Carl Rakosi, "Americana" 1 & 2
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEBLFHAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Americana 1

The settler cleaned and loaded his rifle carefully
before a warm hearth, examining every part
before taking out over hostile Indian country
with his dog at his side.

The philosopher asked, "Why?"
If your time has come, you'll die anyway."

"I know that, but it may be the Indian's time."


Americana 2

The Lord came in a vision to the hardshell screamer
and revealed the letters G P C, which told him:
	Go Preach Christ!
Thus rammed, he led a raid on the idealists,
charging Communism and dishonor to the American eagle.

What saith the defendants?
		"G P C sounds more like Go Pick Cotton
and reminds us of the time the preacher rode up
	to the deacon's house
saying, "The Lord told me in a dream last night
to get a load of corn from your crib."
"The Lord then must have changed His mind,"
replied the deacon, reaching for his long rifle,
"because He told me this morning not to let you have it."

--Carl Rakosi, fr. *Amulet* (1967)


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Aug 27 14:05:03 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 14:05:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Carl Rakosi, "Americana" 3
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEBNFHAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Americana  3

On Washington's Birthday Yancey the haberdasher
ran a full-page ad under a banner headline
in deference to the boy who could not tell a lie:
IT'S TIME WE QUIT FOOLING YOU
			 Yancey's had a false front.
It was ten feet shorter inside than out.
To correct this, he was knocking walls down, moving fixtures,
putting in new lights and introducing a new heating system
in order to give his customers the opportunity
to be seduced by accessories of the finest quality.

Atta boy, merchant! Down the hatch!

One time in Boot Hollow Little Ab Yancey challenged Foggy Dell
and his companions Homer Bullteeter and Slappy Henstep.
Crowing like cocks they accepted the challenge
and flapped their wings.
		Then Ab rose up and neighed
			like a horse:
"I'm the yellow flower of the forest
all brimstone but the head and that's aquafortis"
and rode them down like lightning through a crab-apple orchard.

"We're satisfied," they conceded. "You're a beauty!"

--Carl Rakosi, *Amulet*, 1967



Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Aug 27 16:54:52 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 16:54:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Carl Rakosi, "Americana" 4 & 5
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGECEFHAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Americana 4

The whole town used to gather around
the four bands in the four saloons on the corner.

Okey Poke used to tend bar behind a diamond 
	sunflower stickpin
and the gambler Ed Mochez, who left a hundred and ten 
	suits
when he died,
	         played every hand of poker like a tiger.

People in and out day and night,
all raising simultaneous barrelhouse cain.

Where is Willie the Pleaser?
			Always women running after him,
that sweetback man kind of strutting with it
in a very mosey walk from down the river
			called Shooting the Agate.

One day a boy picked up a flute and started right in
	playing it.
Showed everybody what *is* a flute!

Walked over to a saxophone
and damn if he didn't start making the thing just talk!

"Go, my son, and riff it through the land,"
                                                              and he went

through manhood in his comic little hat.
He'd walk out on the stage and say, "I'd like to
	introduce my band,"
and introduced the musicians to each other.

Then he'd step back, tilt his horn
and blow a high note of emanicipation.
Then the reeds would liquefy and move out,
far out on a mellow riff,
			and his trombones
peppered dirty notes to make it real,
and church rocked!
			Not a chick in town
was safe until the blues cut him down.

The origin of the blues?
			Always been.
Some poor hustling woman feeding her fancy Dan
			in the servants' room.
Some poor guy playing a mysterious bass
fatherless figure on his trombone,
sometimes braying on it like a jack
being the porter in the barber shop.

Some underground Jupiter grieving:
Lord, your servant Juba lives in hog slop.
Give this offchild your medicinal herbs,
root of the master weed, Peter's roots,
and May apple and sweet William.

The origin of the blues?
			The white hero!


Americana 5

As it gets on in years
the third generation
feeling lonely with its children
goes into its darkroom
and develops a picture
of cattle lumbering in from the timbered pasture
at the end of a summer's day a century ago
their bags heavy with milk

planting the acre north
of the hoghouse to sweet corn
for late eating with fresh country butter

families visiting from a hundred miles
singing under a shade tree.

Where the road forks at the red barn
and the oak tree has a knot hole
on its north side
the old ones feel at home,
hoeing weeds in a little garden
and marveling how things grow
the corn having jumped a foot
over the Fourth of July weekend.

Here four-square on historic legs
on all sides bounded
by (how is this capitalized?)
God and hard work
stands the Nineteenth Century.

--Carl Rakosi, fr. *Amulet*, 1967


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Aug 27 23:02:46 2002
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 23:02:46 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Carl Rakosi, two poems
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGECJFHAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

To the Non-Political Citizen

You choose your words too carefully.
Are you afraid of being called agitator?

Every man is entitled to his anger.
It's guaranteed in the Constitution.
Every man is also entitled
to his own opinion and his own death,
his own malice and his own villainy.
But you spend too much time goosing.


The Declaration of Pierrot

I will put my purity away now
and find my art in other men
before I end up like a candle
in the bedroom of an old maid.

I am tired of wearing out my seat
regretting I was not Shakespeare
and trying to make my reading
approach an age like memory
a mother's face, restoring dimly
here a tooth and here a smile

or plucking a lute
and singing a madrigal.

This is no time
to be looking backward.

--Carl Rakosi, fr. *Amulet*, 1967


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard




From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com  Wed Aug 28 07:41:45 2002
From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 04:41:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Carl Rakosi, two poems
Message-ID: <20020828114145.8169A3ECC@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Sun Aug 25 14:23:35 2002
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David)
Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 13:23:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Poetry?
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86E90@mail.ripon.edu>


> The telescope has two ends.

> - Jim

Right.  And Gioia and everyone else I know of who has written about
poetry
for the large-circulation magazines in the past two or three decades
pretty
much ignores both of them.

                                                             --Bob G.
----------------------------------
Here's a rather perfect example of what I meant by looking at the scene from
35,000 feet--"Gioia and everyone else":  geez!  round up the usual suspects.
. . .


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From ron.silliman at verizon.net  Tue Aug 27 12:46:19 2002
From: ron.silliman at verizon.net (Ron)
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 12:46:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Webcast conversation with Carl Rakosi on his 99th birthday
In-Reply-To: <200208271601.g7RG13628429@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <000001c24de9$490aabb0$4742c143@Dell>

http://www.english.upenn.edu/~wh/rakosi.html

October 30, 2002, 7 PM Eastern time

Hal posting that poem reminds me to post this. This is a unique
opportunity, especially for those at some distance who have not
previously had the chance to see & hear the last remaining member of the
Objectivists. 






From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed Aug 28 10:30:31 2002
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 09:30:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Webcast conversation with Carl Rakosi on his
	99th birthday
In-Reply-To: <000001c24de9$490aabb0$4742c143@Dell>
Message-ID: <B99248B7.33F3%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 8/27/02 11:46 AM, Ron at ron.silliman at verizon.net wrote:

> http://www.english.upenn.edu/~wh/rakosi.html
> 
> October 30, 2002, 7 PM Eastern time
> 
> Hal posting that poem reminds me to post this. This is a unique
> opportunity, especially for those at some distance who have not
> previously had the chance to see & hear the last remaining member of the
> Objectivists. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
Twenty-odd years ago Jim Powell and I started a reading series at the San
Francisco Art Institute and one of the first readers in our series was Carl
Rakosi. He was elderly then, so he must indeed be the last of the
Objectivists. Speaking of which, Jim and I also dropped in on George Oppen
over on Polk Street, I think it was, just over the hill from where I lived.
He was elderly and suffering from Alzheimers and he greeted us at the door
by announcing that his wife Mary wasn't at home. Still, he invited us in,
and once he warmed up to conversation, regaled us with a few anecdotes,
including some about his friendship with Ezra Pound. It was a pretty heady
experience for me. So check out a chance to see some literary history while
you can.

Paul Lake



From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Wed Aug 28 19:36:10 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 16:36:10 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] test: legal notice
Message-ID: <3D6D5E69.30663D58@earthlink.net>

test: legal notice


From grahamd at vbe.com  Wed Aug 28 19:38:37 2002
From: grahamd at vbe.com (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 18:38:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] test: legal notice
Message-ID: <200208282337.g7SNbdC85494@mx7.mx.voyager.net>

>test: legal notice 


Gee, I don't know, Jim.  It's nice and snappy, but is it poetry????


===================================================
David Graham
grahamd at vbe.com
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
===================================================



From grahamd at ripon.edu  Wed Aug 28 20:03:37 2002
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 19:03:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Others: Bob Perelman
Message-ID: <200208290002.g7T02e291938@mx3.mx.voyager.net>

Word World

Gentle analogists rock the surface 
of the inhabitable word. *I* 
am the earth, the sun, the moon 
the taste of bread, the place

of sex and death. That's why 
there are tears at weddings, jokes 
at funerals, and animated projections at birth.
Doesn't logic depend on tact?

And if reality has toes to be stepped on 
I have whole Patagonias of emotional red ink 
taught to the rule of a spiritualized 
virtu-laden hickory stick, strict, unspeakable 
bodies dying to pronounce its name.


--Bob Perelman. *The First World*.  The Figures, 1986.

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu
Home Page:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/index.html
Poetry Library:
http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/GrahamD/poetrylib.html
========================================



From jvcervantes at earthlink.net  Thu Aug 29 19:51:38 2002
From: jvcervantes at earthlink.net (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 16:51:38 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mary Ruefle
Message-ID: <3D6EB38A.63C80037@earthlink.net>

Would anyone happen to have Mary Ruefle's e-mail address?  I've tried
going via the Vermont College site but something about it freezes my
computer and I'm tired of restarting etc.  Contact me backchannel.

- Jim

James Cervantes:  jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html


From Poemlady at cox.net  Thu Aug 29 19:28:06 2002
From: Poemlady at cox.net (Poemlady)
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 19:28:06 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mary Ruefle
References: <3D6EB38A.63C80037@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <000701c24fb3$bae1dda0$9fbd0144@ri.cox.net>

She doesn't use e-mail, Jim.  Do you need her snail mail address?  I have it
on my Vermont College Directory.
Audrey

----- Original Message -----
From: "James Cervantes" <jvcervantes at earthlink.net>
To: "new-poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 7:51 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mary Ruefle


> Would anyone happen to have Mary Ruefle's e-mail address?  I've tried
> going via the Vermont College site but something about it freezes my
> computer and I'm tired of restarting etc.  Contact me backchannel.
>
> - Jim
>
> James Cervantes:  jvcervantes at earthlink.net
> Salt River Review:  http://www.poetserv.org
> RelativeLinks: http://www.poetserv.com/relativelinks/home.html
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From simon at ipfw.edu  Thu Aug 29 20:55:15 2002
From: simon at ipfw.edu (Beth Simon)
Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 19:55:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] contemporary stories set in past
Message-ID: <sd6e7c37.055@gw.ipfw.edu>

Was it on this list where someone asked for suggestions of short
fiction set in other historical periods?

The 2001 Pushcart has two.

beth


From marcus at designerglass.com  Fri Aug 30 08:56:39 2002
From: marcus at designerglass.com (Marcus Bales)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 08:56:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Found Poem: Hollywood Squares
In-Reply-To: <30.2bdc4515.2a982a30@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3D6F3347.6139.44D203@localhost>

Found Poem: Hollywood Squares

PETER: If you're going to make a parachute jump, you should be at 
least how high? 
Charley Weaver: Three days of steady drinking should do it.

PETER: Do female frogs croak?
Paul Lynde: If you hold their little heads under water long enough.

PETER: You've been having trouble going to sleep. Are you probably a 
man or a woman? 
Don Knotts: That's what's been keeping me awake.

PETER: According to Cosmo, if you meet a stranger at a party and you 
think he's really attractive, is it all right to come out directly 
and ask him if he's married? 
Rose Marie: No, wait until morning.

PETER: Can boys join the Camp Fire Girls?
Marty Allen: Only after lights out.

PETER: Back in the old days, when Great Grandpa put horseradish on 
his head, what was he trying to do? 
George Gobel: Get it in his mouth.

PETER: In Hawaiian, does it take more than three words to say "I love 
you"? 
Vincent Price: No, you can say it with a pineapple and a twenty.

PETER: Paul, why do Hell's Angels wear leather?
Paul Lynde: Because chiffon wrinkles too easily.

PETER: You've just decided to grow strawberries. Are you going to get 
any during your first year? 
Charley Weaver: Of course not; I'm too busy growing strawberries!

PETER: In bowling, what's a perfect score?
 Rose Marie: Ralph, the pin boy.

PETER: It is considered in bad taste to discuss two subjects at 
nudist camps. One is politics. What is the other? 
Paul Lynde: Tape measures.

PETER: During a tornado, are you safer in the bedroom or in the 
closet?
Rose Marie: Unfortunately, Peter, I'm always safe in the bedroom.

PETER: According to Ann Landers, is there anything wrong with getting 
into the habit of kissing a lot of people? 
Charley Weaver: It got me out of the army!

PETER: It is the most abused and neglected part of your body - what 
is it? 
Paul Lynde: Mine may be abused but it certainly isn't neglected!

PETER: As you grow older, do you tend to gesture more or less with 
your hands while you are talking? 
Rose Marie: You ask me one more growing older question, Peter, and 
I'll give you a gesture you'll never forget!

PETER: Jackie Gleason recently revealed that he firmly believes in 
them and
has actually seen them on at least two occasions. What are they? 
Charley Weaver: His feet.

PETER: True or false - a pea can last as long as 5,000 years.
George Gobel: Boy it sure seems that way sometimes.

PETER: Who stays pregnant for a longer period of time, your wife or 
your elephant?
Paul Lynde: Who told you about my elephant?

PETER: When a couple have a baby, who is responsible for its sex?
Charley Weaver: I'll lend him the car. The rest is up to him.


Marcus Bales

marcus at designerglass.com
http://www.designerglass.com





From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Aug 31 17:08:38 2002
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 17:08:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Poetry?
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86E90@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <022001c25132$94365ac0$ed84fea9@j1c1k6>

>
> > The telescope has two ends.
>
> > - Jim
>
> Right.  And Gioia and everyone else I know of who has written about
> poetry
> for the large-circulation magazines in the past two or three decades
> pretty
> much ignores both of them.
>
>                                                              --Bob G.
> ----------------------------------
> Here's a rather perfect example of what I meant by looking at the scene
from
> 35,000 feet--"Gioia and everyone else":  geez!  round up the usual
suspects.


I know I replied to someone who got me on this but not sure I replied to
David, and it's sure important that I do.  Funny smiling face.  (I'm in the
process of trying to reduce the posts in my InBox from 1200 to under a
hundred.)  David misquoted me, perhaps from reading me from 70,000 feet up.
I said "Gioia and everyone else-----"  He left out:

    "who has written about poetry for the large-circulation magazines in the
past two or three decades."

How many people have written on poetry for large-circulation magazines over
the past two or three decades?  Can you cite an article in which one of them
has either given an overview of poetry or carefully analyzed some small
portion of it?  Forget large-circulation magazines.  I am sincerely
interested in knowing who has written about poetry in America looking
through ANY lense since 1970 or so.  Almost all the ones I know of who have
written about it have eschewed both large generalities and close reading,
though some have done close readings of pre-1970 poetry.

No one, to my knowledge, has done a decent overview of current American
poetry.

--Bob G.