From CobbCoStudioArts  Sat Sep  1 17:27:02 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2001 14:27:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Another "toot-toot"
Message-ID: <20010901212702.1EB102755@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From david.bircumshaw  Sun Sep  2 05:18:34 2001
From: david.bircumshaw (david.bircumshaw)
Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 10:18:34 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: a chide's alphabet
Message-ID: <00a401c13390$3eb45f40$8bf4a8c0@netserver>

----- Original Message -----
From: <garradunga at walleah.f2s.com>
To: <PoetryEspresso at topica.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 02, 2001 10:15 AM
Subject: a chide's alphabet


A Chide's Alphabet

'A Chide's Alphabet' is an on-line journal at http://www.chidesplay.8m.com/

Issue one is available in hard copy within Australia from Walleah Press, PO
Box
368
North Hobart, Tasmania 7002, $4 (includes postage).

Issue one features poetry by Randolph Healy, Candice Ward, Trevor Joyce,
Alison
Croggon, David
Bircumshaw, Robin Hamilton, Emma Lew and Ian Davidson, criticism by Andrew
Duncan - edited by David Bircumshaw, with hard copy layout by Robin
Hamilton.

A hard copy version will be available later this week in the UK, details
soon
from David Bircumshaw.

Ralph


-------------------------------------------------
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From acgold01  Mon Sep  3 15:20:41 2001
From: acgold01 (Alan C. Golding)
Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 15:20:41 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Twentieth-Century Literature Conference
Message-ID: <sb939fc7.046@gwise.louisville.edu>

Just wanted to let everyone that the submissions deadline for the annual 
Twentieth-Century Literature Conference at the University of Louisville is approaching.  The deadline is September 15 (postmark); the conference is Feb. 21-23, 2002.  This year's critical keynote speaker is Charles Altieri; "creative keynote" TBA.

Detailed info is available through the conference website, www.louisville.edu/a-s/cml/xxconf

Alan Golding




From groggydays  Tue Sep  4 07:46:17 2001
From: groggydays (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 12:46:17 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDEAF@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <OE28yLdnsODFRq0I2eT00002637@hotmail.com>

As the Anne Finch essay isn't available on-line, and I live far away (and
broke) in England, I can't really comment on it, but I do notice this trend
towards a fetishing of theoretical modellings of the concept of self in US
poetic discussions.

As this originates from what (to me) appears the most narcissistic and
self-centered society on the face of the earth I cannot but indulge in an
ironic smile, the paradox of well-to-do North Americans inveigling against
Selfhood while promoting themselves is rather present to me.

I do agree with aspects of the critique of Self as Presentation in poetry,
but at the same time I'd insist that the true lyric 'I' is as if anonymous,
voice that is not personality-property, that rings in one's ears as if one's
own.

Of course, I'm not an American (US variety) so I expect no response to this
message.

(apologies btw to some very fine US folk I like a lot, you're all not
included in my critique)


Best

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham, David" <GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 6:37 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay


> Annie Finch's excellent essay ("Coherent Decentering: Towards A New Model
Of
> The Poetic Self") first appeared in an issue of Fence magazine in
> Fall/Winter 2000-01--in a symposium on "subjectivity and style."  She
later
> expanded it for Kate Sontag's and my anthology *After Confession:  Poetry
as
> Autobiography*, due out any day now from Graywolf.  A revised version of
> Claudia Rankine's essay from the same issue of Fence also appears in our
> collection, along with many other delights.
>
> When the book is actually available I'll post more info on it, but (plug
> plug) it's already ready for pre-ordering from Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and
> your favorite independent bookshop.
>
> The original Fence issue is well worth looking up. Partial contents
> (including Rankine but not Finch) available online:
> http://www.fencemag.com/v3n2/index.html
>
> David Graham
>
> ===================
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> ===================
>
> > ----------
> > From: Cadaly at aol.com
> > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 11:48 AM
> > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
> >
> > I'm sure it is in one of her books, but there's also her excellent web
> > site
> > which generously includes a number of essays, syllabi, etc.:
> >
> > http://www.muohio.edu/~finchar
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From wasanthony  Tue Sep  4 09:32:57 2001
From: wasanthony (jcervantes)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 06:32:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
In-Reply-To: <OE28yLdnsODFRq0I2eT00002637@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010904133257.10198.qmail@web12101.mail.yahoo.com>

--- David Bircumshaw <groggydays at hotmail.com> wrote:
> As the Anne Finch essay isn't available on-line, and I live far away
> (and
> broke) in England, I can't really comment on it, but I do notice this
> trend
> towards a fetishing of theoretical modellings of the concept of self
> in US
> poetic discussions.
> 
> As this originates from what (to me) appears the most narcissistic
> and
> self-centered society on the face of the earth I cannot but indulge
> in an
> ironic smile, the paradox of well-to-do North Americans inveigling
> against
> Selfhood while promoting themselves is rather present to me.
> 
> I do agree with aspects of the critique of Self as Presentation in
> poetry,
> but at the same time I'd insist that the true lyric 'I' is as if
> anonymous,
> voice that is not personality-property, that rings in one's ears as
> if one's
> own.
> 
> Of course, I'm not an American (US variety) so I expect no response
> to this
> message.
> 
> (apologies btw to some very fine US folk I like a lot, you're all not
> included in my critique)
> 

Does this fit? (from today's Poetry daily)

              House with its Own Island

              It is now running into more than a week
              of shine without heat, of something said to me
              somewhere in a branch-cluttered side street.
              My sleeping was only so-so, and I didn't know
              where my feelings were to hurt the rock-part
              of them, the most deceptive curve
              of my sickness with sickness
              so true to its winter self.

              For many days I wasted daylight
              wishing for an extra moon, and trying
              to get used to it enough to use
              and keep it, almost wastefully alone,
              in the spending day, in the doubtful
              chair, in the furrows of prayer
              that were blowing up my minutes
              like voluptuous-to-be-
              disappeared-into lips.

              My friend of a year, it was the worst year
              I have spent on earth, not having realized
              you were on earth, noticing eyefully
              the unconsidered land and the shooting-up root
              happening to me in March. You lay in
              with your whole body like an archer,
              not in water either, but closing out the houseful,
              the carpets, hangings, porringers and dishes,
              all the number of my pewter platters.

              Flame propping up my underflesh
              and weary weathers anchored one end
              of the bridge like a pair of thoughts
              unsettling a book, some story
              of something done with it:
              you could protect the hours you liked best
              seasoning the summer-deserted road,
              living too high for me to have heaven
              over with, reproving my wistfullest,
              boat-worn, out-of-love return.


              Medbh McGuckian
              Shenandoah
              Volume 51, Number 2-3
              Summer/Fall 2001 


=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
"Ripples" @ <http://www.poetserv.net>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com



From groggydays  Tue Sep  4 10:36:03 2001
From: groggydays (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 15:36:03 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Anne Finch essay
Message-ID: <OE69pR1h8Fw9fhphxiv00002732@hotmail.com>

Nice one, Jordan

I'd agree with you about the pomposity, but not the self-importance, which
might sound paradoxical.

But you must appreciate that is not _my_ pomposity: England/UK is a nation
of the governing and the governed, as far I'm concerned the ruling classes
and their worlds are as distant as Jupiter.

Written this by a mere 'subject'.

Best

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jordan Davis" <jdavis at panix.com>
To: "David Bircumshaw" <groggydays at hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay


> Hi David -
>
> As your critique of American critique comes from the most self-important
> and pompous nation on earth, I can barely suppress a smile...
>
> All best in the electrons,
> Jordan
>
>
>




From groggydays  Tue Sep  4 10:39:59 2001
From: groggydays (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 15:39:59 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
References: <20010904133257.10198.qmail@web12101.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <OE31NNHGwAOJw8UTNyQ00002764@hotmail.com>

It's a tantalising poem, mr cervantes, but what exactly is it supposed to
fit?

Puzzled.


Best

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "jcervantes" <wasanthony at yahoo.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 2:32 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay


>
> --- David Bircumshaw <groggydays at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > As the Anne Finch essay isn't available on-line, and I live far away
> > (and
> > broke) in England, I can't really comment on it, but I do notice this
> > trend
> > towards a fetishing of theoretical modellings of the concept of self
> > in US
> > poetic discussions.
> >
> > As this originates from what (to me) appears the most narcissistic
> > and
> > self-centered society on the face of the earth I cannot but indulge
> > in an
> > ironic smile, the paradox of well-to-do North Americans inveigling
> > against
> > Selfhood while promoting themselves is rather present to me.
> >
> > I do agree with aspects of the critique of Self as Presentation in
> > poetry,
> > but at the same time I'd insist that the true lyric 'I' is as if
> > anonymous,
> > voice that is not personality-property, that rings in one's ears as
> > if one's
> > own.
> >
> > Of course, I'm not an American (US variety) so I expect no response
> > to this
> > message.
> >
> > (apologies btw to some very fine US folk I like a lot, you're all not
> > included in my critique)
> >
>
> Does this fit? (from today's Poetry daily)
>
>               House with its Own Island
>
>               It is now running into more than a week
>               of shine without heat, of something said to me
>               somewhere in a branch-cluttered side street.
>               My sleeping was only so-so, and I didn't know
>               where my feelings were to hurt the rock-part
>               of them, the most deceptive curve
>               of my sickness with sickness
>               so true to its winter self.
>
>               For many days I wasted daylight
>               wishing for an extra moon, and trying
>               to get used to it enough to use
>               and keep it, almost wastefully alone,
>               in the spending day, in the doubtful
>               chair, in the furrows of prayer
>               that were blowing up my minutes
>               like voluptuous-to-be-
>               disappeared-into lips.
>
>               My friend of a year, it was the worst year
>               I have spent on earth, not having realized
>               you were on earth, noticing eyefully
>               the unconsidered land and the shooting-up root
>               happening to me in March. You lay in
>               with your whole body like an archer,
>               not in water either, but closing out the houseful,
>               the carpets, hangings, porringers and dishes,
>               all the number of my pewter platters.
>
>               Flame propping up my underflesh
>               and weary weathers anchored one end
>               of the bridge like a pair of thoughts
>               unsettling a book, some story
>               of something done with it:
>               you could protect the hours you liked best
>               seasoning the summer-deserted road,
>               living too high for me to have heaven
>               over with, reproving my wistfullest,
>               boat-worn, out-of-love return.
>
>
>               Medbh McGuckian
>               Shenandoah
>               Volume 51, Number 2-3
>               Summer/Fall 2001
>
>
> =====
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
> Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
> "Ripples" @ <http://www.poetserv.net>
> Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo!
Messenger
> http://im.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From groggydays  Tue Sep  4 11:17:52 2001
From: groggydays (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:17:52 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
References: <Pine.NEB.4.33.0109040935270.5218-100000@panix3.panix.com>
Message-ID: <OE25c0xvlUQ9cAgjHXw00002777@hotmail.com>

Jordan

if I can expand a little on this subject:

I question the notion of 'self-importance' as characteristic of Brit culture
becos' of the marked strain of self-deprecation in said culture. My crude
analysis runs along the lines of it being a product of a socially (and
physically) 'tight' human environment in which self-display is restrained,
by reason of proximity, unlike the States, where egos have a lot more,
physical and psychological, space.

All very simplistic this, but I suspect I'm on the right lines. Not that I'm
a socio-linguistic-critic by any means.

Best

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jordan Davis" <jdavis at panix.com>
To: "David Bircumshaw" <groggydays at hotmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay


> Hi David -
>
> As your critique of American critique comes from the most self-important
> and pompous nation on earth, I can barely suppress a smile...
>
> All best in the electrons,
> Jordan
>
>
>



From moira_russell  Tue Sep  4 11:32:44 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 07:32:44 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
Message-ID: <F36B60IalDIj0LAMxlJ0000a050@hotmail.com>

>Of course, I'm not an American (US variety) so I expect no response to this 
>message.

One thing which we Yanks are supposed to be world-beaters at, but where the 
Brits regularly beat us hollow -- namely, rudeness -- might put people off 
from responding to your message also.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From GrahamD  Tue Sep  4 11:41:00 2001
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 10:41:00 -0500 
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE:  Annie Finch essay
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDEC2@mail.ripon.edu>

All these messages headed "Annie Finch essay" are hard to resist, though I
doubt the discussion will go far unless tethered more tightly to examples.
(I, too, would love to hear Jim Cervantes's take on the McGuckian poem he
posted.)  This is not simply a plea for people to read the book in which the
Finch essay appears (that'll come later!), but I would remind David
Bircumshaw that until he reads the essay he might go easy on characterizing
it.  She takes a very different tack from Claudia Rankine, an early version
of whose essay is available online; and in general the anthology in question
contains a controversy of views.  

More broadly, I guess I will register my ennui at what Toni Morrison calls
"the totalizing view."  She was referrring to critics' desires to discuss
"African American literature" as an easily summarizable entity, but I think
the same is true whenever we veer into the deep waters of characterizing
national personalities, poetics, etc.   Call me inductive, but when such
generalizations sweep across the land, my eyelids tend to droop.

Would David B. be willing to post a poem that displays the "true" lyric-I,
perhaps?  I'm all ears.  

David G.

===================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
===================

> ----------
> From: 	David Bircumshaw
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Tuesday, September 4, 2001 6:46 AM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
> 
> As the Anne Finch essay isn't available on-line, and I live far away (and
> broke) in England, I can't really comment on it, but I do notice this
> trend
> towards a fetishing of theoretical modellings of the concept of self in US
> poetic discussions.
> 
> As this originates from what (to me) appears the most narcissistic and
> self-centered society on the face of the earth I cannot but indulge in an
> ironic smile, the paradox of well-to-do North Americans inveigling against
> Selfhood while promoting themselves is rather present to me.
> 
> I do agree with aspects of the critique of Self as Presentation in poetry,
> but at the same time I'd insist that the true lyric 'I' is as if
> anonymous,
> voice that is not personality-property, that rings in one's ears as if
> one's
> own.
> 
> Of course, I'm not an American (US variety) so I expect no response to
> this
> message.
> 
> (apologies btw to some very fine US folk I like a lot, you're all not
> included in my critique)
> 
> 
> Best
> 
> Dave
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Graham, David" <GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 6:37 PM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
> 
> 
> > Annie Finch's excellent essay ("Coherent Decentering: Towards A New
> Model
> Of
> > The Poetic Self") first appeared in an issue of Fence magazine in
> > Fall/Winter 2000-01--in a symposium on "subjectivity and style."  She
> later
> > expanded it for Kate Sontag's and my anthology *After Confession:
> Poetry
> as
> > Autobiography*, due out any day now from Graywolf.  A revised version of
> > Claudia Rankine's essay from the same issue of Fence also appears in our
> > collection, along with many other delights.
> >
> > When the book is actually available I'll post more info on it, but (plug
> > plug) it's already ready for pre-ordering from Amazon, Barnes & Noble,
> and
> > your favorite independent bookshop.
> >
> > The original Fence issue is well worth looking up. Partial contents
> > (including Rankine but not Finch) available online:
> > http://www.fencemag.com/v3n2/index.html
> >
> > David Graham
> >
> > ===================
> > David Graham
> > grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> > ===================
> >
> > > ----------
> > > From: Cadaly at aol.com
> > > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 11:48 AM
> > > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
> > >
> > > I'm sure it is in one of her books, but there's also her excellent web
> > > site
> > > which generously includes a number of essays, syllabi, etc.:
> > >
> > > http://www.muohio.edu/~finchar
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 



From wasanthony  Tue Sep  4 11:54:37 2001
From: wasanthony (jcervantes)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 08:54:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE:  Annie Finch essay
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDEC2@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <20010904155437.76861.qmail@web12105.mail.yahoo.com>

--- "Graham, David" <GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU> wrote:
> All these messages headed "Annie Finch essay" are hard to resist,
> though I
> doubt the discussion will go far unless tethered more tightly to
> examples.
> (I, too, would love to hear Jim Cervantes's take on the McGuckian
> poem he
> posted.)  

Well, to use phrases directly from David Bircumshaw's post, it's: 

> . . . a fetishing of theoretical modellings of the concept of self 

> . . . originates from what (to me) appears the most narcissistic 
and
> self-centered society on the face of the earth 

> . . . the paradox of well-to-do [fill in the blank] inveigling 
against
> Selfhood while promoting themselves is rather present to me.

and:
 
> I do agree with aspects of the critique of Self as Presentation in 
poetry,
> but at the same time I'd insist that the true lyric 'I' is as if
> anonymous,
> voice that is not personality-property, that rings in one's ears as 
if
> one's
> own.

All very well put.

- Jim


=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
"Ripples" @ <http://www.poetserv.net>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com



From groggydays  Tue Sep  4 11:56:56 2001
From: groggydays (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 16:56:56 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE:  Annie Finch essay
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDEC2@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <OE46blCBA7x5FRpQhjz000027c0@hotmail.com>

That's a rather invidious challenge, Mr David G, because by doing so I would
be displaying the very opposite of what I was propounding, I do take your
point about the Anne Finch essay, I was simply and very deliberately trying
to provoke further discussion (not being rude, really, because of the
power-stratifications of the world it can be a temptation to cock a snook at
the US at times, very poor of me I know. Tho' I would agree at the charge of
impoliteness at British society in general. Our civility is very much of the
surface.)

Ok, here's a poem, a very _simple_ one'.

David B.


                         _For my father_

Flemish bond, English bond, slap the trowel, plumb the line.
Six o?clock, on the dot, up and out, work?s about:
_It?s seven quid a week and a ten bob note._
Billycan, in the hand, white outside, black within.
Morning come, frozen bone; night and home, frozen bone.
_It?s seven quid a week and a ten bob note._
Dawn and dusk: English bond; seven pound: frozen bound



----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham, David" <GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 4:41 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Annie Finch essay


> All these messages headed "Annie Finch essay" are hard to resist, though I
> doubt the discussion will go far unless tethered more tightly to examples.
> (I, too, would love to hear Jim Cervantes's take on the McGuckian poem he
> posted.)  This is not simply a plea for people to read the book in which
the
> Finch essay appears (that'll come later!), but I would remind David
> Bircumshaw that until he reads the essay he might go easy on
characterizing
> it.  She takes a very different tack from Claudia Rankine, an early
version
> of whose essay is available online; and in general the anthology in
question
> contains a controversy of views.
>
> More broadly, I guess I will register my ennui at what Toni Morrison calls
> "the totalizing view."  She was referrring to critics' desires to discuss
> "African American literature" as an easily summarizable entity, but I
think
> the same is true whenever we veer into the deep waters of characterizing
> national personalities, poetics, etc.   Call me inductive, but when such
> generalizations sweep across the land, my eyelids tend to droop.
>
> Would David B. be willing to post a poem that displays the "true" lyric-I,
> perhaps?  I'm all ears.
>
> David G.
>
> ===================
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> ===================
>
> > ----------
> > From: David Bircumshaw
> > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 4, 2001 6:46 AM
> > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
> >
> > As the Anne Finch essay isn't available on-line, and I live far away
(and
> > broke) in England, I can't really comment on it, but I do notice this
> > trend
> > towards a fetishing of theoretical modellings of the concept of self in
US
> > poetic discussions.
> >
> > As this originates from what (to me) appears the most narcissistic and
> > self-centered society on the face of the earth I cannot but indulge in
an
> > ironic smile, the paradox of well-to-do North Americans inveigling
against
> > Selfhood while promoting themselves is rather present to me.
> >
> > I do agree with aspects of the critique of Self as Presentation in
poetry,
> > but at the same time I'd insist that the true lyric 'I' is as if
> > anonymous,
> > voice that is not personality-property, that rings in one's ears as if
> > one's
> > own.
> >
> > Of course, I'm not an American (US variety) so I expect no response to
> > this
> > message.
> >
> > (apologies btw to some very fine US folk I like a lot, you're all not
> > included in my critique)
> >
> >
> > Best
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Graham, David" <GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU>
> > To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 6:37 PM
> > Subject: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
> >
> >
> > > Annie Finch's excellent essay ("Coherent Decentering: Towards A New
> > Model
> > Of
> > > The Poetic Self") first appeared in an issue of Fence magazine in
> > > Fall/Winter 2000-01--in a symposium on "subjectivity and style."  She
> > later
> > > expanded it for Kate Sontag's and my anthology *After Confession:
> > Poetry
> > as
> > > Autobiography*, due out any day now from Graywolf.  A revised version
of
> > > Claudia Rankine's essay from the same issue of Fence also appears in
our
> > > collection, along with many other delights.
> > >
> > > When the book is actually available I'll post more info on it, but
(plug
> > > plug) it's already ready for pre-ordering from Amazon, Barnes & Noble,
> > and
> > > your favorite independent bookshop.
> > >
> > > The original Fence issue is well worth looking up. Partial contents
> > > (including Rankine but not Finch) available online:
> > > http://www.fencemag.com/v3n2/index.html
> > >
> > > David Graham
> > >
> > > ===================
> > > David Graham
> > > grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> > > ===================
> > >
> > > > ----------
> > > > From: Cadaly at aol.com
> > > > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 11:48 AM
> > > > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
> > > >
> > > > I'm sure it is in one of her books, but there's also her excellent
web
> > > > site
> > > > which generously includes a number of essays, syllabi, etc.:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.muohio.edu/~finchar
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From moira_russell  Tue Sep  4 12:07:20 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 08:07:20 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
Message-ID: <F67DdQcp0TkYtVjUQtX00009f2a@hotmail.com>

David Graham wrote:

>When the book is actually available I'll post more info on it, but (plug 
>plug) it's already ready for pre-ordering from Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and 
>your favorite independent bookshop.

Maybe, if enough people are interested, we could discuss the essay when the 
book comes out?

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From groggydays  Tue Sep  4 12:26:59 2001
From: groggydays (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 17:26:59 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE:  Annie Finch essay
References: <20010904155437.76861.qmail@web12105.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <OE67RySz6Q3eQbTrYpL0000283a@hotmail.com>

Jim

I'm still puzzled by yr stance, are you saying that my comments apply to
Ireland? (Ms McGuckian's homeland)

Sorry if I sound thick on this, but I do have trouble 'placing' the tone and
point of messages on US predominated lists. There seems to be this sense of
parody unanchored by any notion of what is non-parodic.

Best

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "jcervantes" <wasanthony at yahoo.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: Annie Finch essay


> --- "Graham, David" <GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU> wrote:
> > All these messages headed "Annie Finch essay" are hard to resist,
> > though I
> > doubt the discussion will go far unless tethered more tightly to
> > examples.
> > (I, too, would love to hear Jim Cervantes's take on the McGuckian
> > poem he
> > posted.)
>
> Well, to use phrases directly from David Bircumshaw's post, it's:
>
> > . . . a fetishing of theoretical modellings of the concept of self
>
> > . . . originates from what (to me) appears the most narcissistic
> and
> > self-centered society on the face of the earth
>
> > . . . the paradox of well-to-do [fill in the blank] inveigling
> against
> > Selfhood while promoting themselves is rather present to me.
>
> and:
>
> > I do agree with aspects of the critique of Self as Presentation in
> poetry,
> > but at the same time I'd insist that the true lyric 'I' is as if
> > anonymous,
> > voice that is not personality-property, that rings in one's ears as
> if
> > one's
> > own.
>
> All very well put.
>
> - Jim
>
>
> =====
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
> Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
> "Ripples" @ <http://www.poetserv.net>
> Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo!
Messenger
> http://im.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From JforJames  Tue Sep  4 12:44:08 2001
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 12:44:08 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] House with its Own Island
Message-ID: <b0.19dbc895.28c65ed8@aol.com>

There is a confounding opacity to much of MeGuckian's 
poetry...and this poem is no exception. Some nice sonic 
things happening here; but I'm pretty much shut out. 
It as if she' s purposefully jumbled some the phrasing to 
keep the reader away from any narrative underpinnings. 
Other lines are just awkwardly put down: "in the doubtful
chair, /in the furrows of prayer/that were blowing up my minutes/
like voluptuous-to-be-/disappeared-into lips."
By & large the reader is teased with glimpses. Most of 
what the poem has going for it is its mood of unease (or
maybe it's just this reader's unease hearing an echo of 
Eliot's remark that some writers believe emotions gain 
intensity by being inarticulate).
Finnegan
---
        House with its Own Island

              It is now running into more than a week
              of shine without heat, of something said to me
              somewhere in a branch-cluttered side street.
              My sleeping was only so-so, and I didn't know
              where my feelings were to hurt the rock-part
              of them, the most deceptive curve
              of my sickness with sickness
              so true to its winter self.

              For many days I wasted daylight
              wishing for an extra moon, and trying
              to get used to it enough to use
              and keep it, almost wastefully alone,
              in the spending day, in the doubtful
              chair, in the furrows of prayer
              that were blowing up my minutes
              like voluptuous-to-be-
              disappeared-into lips.

              My friend of a year, it was the worst year
              I have spent on earth, not having realized
              you were on earth, noticing eyefully
              the unconsidered land and the shooting-up root
              happening to me in March. You lay in
              with your whole body like an archer,
              not in water either, but closing out the houseful,
              the carpets, hangings, porringers and dishes,
              all the number of my pewter platters.

              Flame propping up my underflesh
              and weary weathers anchored one end
              of the bridge like a pair of thoughts
              unsettling a book, some story
              of something done with it:
              you could protect the hours you liked best
              seasoning the summer-deserted road,
              living too high for me to have heaven
              over with, reproving my wistfullest,
              boat-worn, out-of-love return.


              Medbh McGuckian
              Shenandoah
              Volume 51, Number 2-3
              Summer/Fall 2001 



From JforJames  Tue Sep  4 12:53:45 2001
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 12:53:45 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] House with its Own Island
Message-ID: <132.124df9e.28c66119@aol.com>

Oops...misspelling McGuckian as "MeGuckian"
was not a play on decentered selfhood, I-lyric, etc.,  
just one of my all too common typohs.
Finnegan



From simmers  Tue Sep  4 12:57:04 2001
From: simmers (George Simmers)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 17:57:04 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] September Snakeskin
References: <200109041559.f84FxHv05638@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <002701c13562$a053d400$1f229dc3@oemcomputer>

September Snakeskin is online.

This month's issue features three "new media" pieces.
 Deena Larsen's "Children's Time" is a small but attractive poetry
hypertext.

Linda Crespi's "Oedipus Variations" has fifteen lines that can be rearranged
in millions of different ways  - but however they come out, they always
retell  a fragment of the Oedipus myth.

Peter Cavendish's "One Day I Woke.."  throws out dark thoughts
semi-randomly.

In addition there are poems by the following poets:

Paul K. Henry

Jo Neace Krause

Liam Wilkinson

Lori Kean

R. K. Singh

Colin Fairweather

Stephen Johnson

Richard Jordan

Alan Papprill

L.Fullington

Bryan Murphy


Take a look.

George

______________________________________________
George Simmers
Snakeskin Poetry Webzine is at
http://www.snakeskin.org.uk




From spahr  Tue Sep  4 12:11:28 2001
From: spahr (juliana spahr)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 12:11:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] try listen
Message-ID: <3B94FD30.B4E1F72B@hawaii.edu>

TRY LISTEN
audio archive
http://maven.english.hawaii.edu/celebrate


sound files of some readings and talks 
at the university of hawai'i manoa 
over the last three years

hear poets read and discuss their work
work mainly in English 
but also in Bislama, Hawaiian, Pidgin/Hawaiian Creole English, and other
languages

also photos of poets 

features readings and/or talks by:

          Alani Apio
          Kathy Dee Kaleokealoha Kaloloahilani Banggo
          Tisa Bryant
          Darryl Keola Cabacungan
          Catalina Cariaga
          Sia Figiel
          Jacinta Galea'i
          Eric Gamalinda
          C. S. Giscombe
          Renee Gladman 
          Ku'ualoha Meyer Ho'omanawanui
          Summi Kaipa 
          Pamela Lu 
          Ian MacMillan
          Mark McMorris
          Grace Molisa
          Sianne Ngai
          Nourbese Philip
          Bhanu Kapil Rider
          Susan Schultz
          Leonard Schwartz
          Bob Shacochis
          Caroline Sinavaiana
          Anne Tardos
          Teresia Teaiwa
          Lee Tonouchi
          Edwin Torres
          Lois-Ann Yamanaka
          Allison Yap
          Zhang Er



From wasanthony  Tue Sep  4 18:47:20 2001
From: wasanthony (jcervantes)
Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 15:47:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] House with its Own Island
In-Reply-To: <b0.19dbc895.28c65ed8@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20010904224720.18110.qmail@web12105.mail.yahoo.com>

Yes.  In a word: solipsism, which is what I took to be the target of
Mr. Bircumshaw's initial post.

- Jim

--- JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> There is a confounding opacity to much of MeGuckian's 
> poetry...and this poem is no exception. Some nice sonic 
> things happening here; but I'm pretty much shut out. 
> It as if she' s purposefully jumbled some the phrasing to 
> keep the reader away from any narrative underpinnings. 
> Other lines are just awkwardly put down: "in the doubtful
> chair, /in the furrows of prayer/that were blowing up my minutes/
> like voluptuous-to-be-/disappeared-into lips."
> By & large the reader is teased with glimpses. Most of 
> what the poem has going for it is its mood of unease (or
> maybe it's just this reader's unease hearing an echo of 
> Eliot's remark that some writers believe emotions gain 
> intensity by being inarticulate).
> Finnegan
> ---
>         House with its Own Island
> 
>               It is now running into more than a week
>               of shine without heat, of something said to me
>               somewhere in a branch-cluttered side street.
>               My sleeping was only so-so, and I didn't know
>               where my feelings were to hurt the rock-part
>               of them, the most deceptive curve
>               of my sickness with sickness
>               so true to its winter self.
> 
>               For many days I wasted daylight
>               wishing for an extra moon, and trying
>               to get used to it enough to use
>               and keep it, almost wastefully alone,
>               in the spending day, in the doubtful
>               chair, in the furrows of prayer
>               that were blowing up my minutes
>               like voluptuous-to-be-
>               disappeared-into lips.
> 
>               My friend of a year, it was the worst year
>               I have spent on earth, not having realized
>               you were on earth, noticing eyefully
>               the unconsidered land and the shooting-up root
>               happening to me in March. You lay in
>               with your whole body like an archer,
>               not in water either, but closing out the houseful,
>               the carpets, hangings, porringers and dishes,
>               all the number of my pewter platters.
> 
>               Flame propping up my underflesh
>               and weary weathers anchored one end
>               of the bridge like a pair of thoughts
>               unsettling a book, some story
>               of something done with it:
>               you could protect the hours you liked best
>               seasoning the summer-deserted road,
>               living too high for me to have heaven
>               over with, reproving my wistfullest,
>               boat-worn, out-of-love return.
> 
> 
>               Medbh McGuckian
>               Shenandoah
>               Volume 51, Number 2-3
>               Summer/Fall 2001 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
"Ripples" @ <http://www.poetserv.net>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com



From grahamd  Tue Sep  4 23:34:46 2001
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 22:34:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lyric I
Message-ID: <200109050335.f853Ze071502@mx16.mx.voyager.net>

I'm afraid I'm lost, David B.  I requested a look at a "true lyric I" poem
based on this statement of yours, which I struggle to follow:

"I do agree with aspects of the critique of Self as Presentation in poetry,
but at the same time I'd insist that the true lyric 'I' is as if anonymous,
voice that is not personality-property, that rings in one's ears as if one's
own."

Now you say that "by doing so I would be displaying the very opposite of
what I was propounding...."

I'm afraid that's too cryptic for me, and I have no clearer idea what point
you were originally making.   Can you unpack this for us?

Who wrote "For My Father," by the way?

David G.


_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________

----------
>From: "David Bircumshaw" <groggydays at hotmail.com>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE:  Annie Finch essay
>Date: Tue, Sep 4, 2001, 10:56 AM
>

>That's a rather invidious challenge, Mr David G, because by doing so I would
>be displaying the very opposite of what I was propounding, I do take your
>point about the Anne Finch essay, I was simply and very deliberately trying
>to provoke further discussion (not being rude, really, because of the
>power-stratifications of the world it can be a temptation to cock a snook at
>the US at times, very poor of me I know. Tho' I would agree at the charge of
>impoliteness at British society in general. Our civility is very much of the
>surface.)
>
>Ok, here's a poem, a very _simple_ one'.
>
>David B.
>
>
>                         _For my father_
>
>Flemish bond, English bond, slap the trowel, plumb the line.
>Six o?clock, on the dot, up and out, work?s about:
>_It?s seven quid a week and a ten bob note._
>Billycan, in the hand, white outside, black within.
>Morning come, frozen bone; night and home, frozen bone.
>_It?s seven quid a week and a ten bob note._
>Dawn and dusk: English bond; seven pound: frozen bound
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Graham, David" <GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 4:41 PM
>Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Annie Finch essay
>
>

>> Would David B. be willing to post a poem that displays the "true" lyric-I,
>> perhaps?  I'm all ears.
>>
>> David G.
>>
====================================



From groggydays  Tue Sep  4 23:58:42 2001
From: groggydays (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 04:58:42 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lyric I
References: <200109050335.f853Ze071502@mx16.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <OE43XB2POVXsUEvmuNk00002d9c@hotmail.com>

Bored with unpacking things.

I wrote 'For My Father'.

DB




----- Original Message -----
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at mail.ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 4:34 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lyric I


> I'm afraid I'm lost, David B.  I requested a look at a "true lyric I" poem
> based on this statement of yours, which I struggle to follow:
>
> "I do agree with aspects of the critique of Self as Presentation in
poetry,
> but at the same time I'd insist that the true lyric 'I' is as if
anonymous,
> voice that is not personality-property, that rings in one's ears as if
one's
> own."
>
> Now you say that "by doing so I would be displaying the very opposite of
> what I was propounding...."
>
> I'm afraid that's too cryptic for me, and I have no clearer idea what
point
> you were originally making.   Can you unpack this for us?
>
> Who wrote "For My Father," by the way?
>
> David G.
>
>
> _______________________
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> _______________________
>
> ----------
> >From: "David Bircumshaw" <groggydays at hotmail.com>
> >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE:  Annie Finch essay
> >Date: Tue, Sep 4, 2001, 10:56 AM
> >
>
> >That's a rather invidious challenge, Mr David G, because by doing so I
would
> >be displaying the very opposite of what I was propounding, I do take your
> >point about the Anne Finch essay, I was simply and very deliberately
trying
> >to provoke further discussion (not being rude, really, because of the
> >power-stratifications of the world it can be a temptation to cock a snook
at
> >the US at times, very poor of me I know. Tho' I would agree at the charge
of
> >impoliteness at British society in general. Our civility is very much of
the
> >surface.)
> >
> >Ok, here's a poem, a very _simple_ one'.
> >
> >David B.
> >
> >
> >                         _For my father_
> >
> >Flemish bond, English bond, slap the trowel, plumb the line.
> >Six o'clock, on the dot, up and out, work's about:
> >_It's seven quid a week and a ten bob note._
> >Billycan, in the hand, white outside, black within.
> >Morning come, frozen bone; night and home, frozen bone.
> >_It's seven quid a week and a ten bob note._
> >Dawn and dusk: English bond; seven pound: frozen bound
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Graham, David" <GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU>
> >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 4:41 PM
> >Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Annie Finch essay
> >
> >
>
> >> Would David B. be willing to post a poem that displays the "true"
lyric-I,
> >> perhaps?  I'm all ears.
> >>
> >> David G.
> >>
> ====================================
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From wjbat  Wed Sep  5 02:47:43 2001
From: wjbat (Wendy Battin)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 02:47:43 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] House with its Own Island
In-Reply-To: <20010904224720.18110.qmail@web12105.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010905024743.025168@oak.cc.conncoll.edu>

We're certainly insensitive to the nationalities of our sources, and we
should pay more attention.   I'd say in our defense that we have to
enforce that bias to be a country; the USA is stone soup and just soup,
and I was delighted to discover when I could finally afford to get to
Europe that all the qualities of the ugly American have good pedigree in
Britain, France, and Germany.  If you're wondering, Mr. Bircumshaw,
nobody reads us either, and I enjoyed your first post..

yrs, Wendy Battin





From aprentiss  Wed Sep  5 04:39:45 2001
From: aprentiss (Prentiss, Amber)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 04:39:45 -0400 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
Message-ID: <E7C06C25D501D511BA9900508BB82AA90DE182@ness.agnesscott.edu>

I thought poets tended to be among the well-to-do, that is, the unlikely to
get shot, die of starvation or sit at the welfare line variety. Then again,
the idea of useful criticism (for criticism, what I've encountered of it,
doesn't usually seem to be a thing of beauty which needs no use),
But what else do we have to do except introspect? I can go to Wal-Mart. I
can try to catch up with my neighbors (at home home, not college home) and
hope that they don't move next year. I can call my grandma. I can read until
I get a headache or watch TV. It seems to me that my society is
self-centered because it's entirely too large and mobile to really be a
coherent society in the first place. The only thing that anyone can be
pretty sure of sticking around until death is self. If many Americans seem
to be against selfhood, maybe they're really just against the apparent lack
of group identity. Maybe people are tired of being a /self/ with nothing to
orbit, but how can they join communities that far too often don't exist?
It's a sort of implosion - there's nothing to expand to, so the self falls
into itself. Or whatever. 

Are fake lyric 'I's any better/worse than the real thing?

-Amber

(And yes, you could but indulge, but you didn't, just as I could have done
everything but write this parenthetical comment, yet I did. Pet peeve.)

-----Original Message-----
From: David Bircumshaw
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: 9/4/2001 7:46 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay

As this originates from what (to me) appears the most narcissistic and
self-centered society on the face of the earth I cannot but indulge in
an
ironic smile, the paradox of well-to-do North Americans inveigling
against
Selfhood while promoting themselves is rather present to me.

I do agree with aspects of the critique of Self as Presentation in
poetry,
but at the same time I'd insist that the true lyric 'I' is as if
anonymous,
voice that is not personality-property, that rings in one's ears as if
one's
own.

Of course, I'm not an American (US variety) so I expect no response to
this
message.

(apologies btw to some very fine US folk I like a lot, you're all not
included in my critique)


Best

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham, David" <GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 6:37 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay


> Annie Finch's excellent essay ("Coherent Decentering: Towards A New
Model
Of
> The Poetic Self") first appeared in an issue of Fence magazine in
> Fall/Winter 2000-01--in a symposium on "subjectivity and style."  She
later
> expanded it for Kate Sontag's and my anthology *After Confession:
Poetry
as
> Autobiography*, due out any day now from Graywolf.  A revised version
of
> Claudia Rankine's essay from the same issue of Fence also appears in
our
> collection, along with many other delights.
>
> When the book is actually available I'll post more info on it, but
(plug
> plug) it's already ready for pre-ordering from Amazon, Barnes & Noble,
and
> your favorite independent bookshop.
>
> The original Fence issue is well worth looking up. Partial contents
> (including Rankine but not Finch) available online:
> http://www.fencemag.com/v3n2/index.html
>
> David Graham
>
> ===================
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> ===================
>
> > ----------
> > From: Cadaly at aol.com
> > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 11:48 AM
> > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
> >
> > I'm sure it is in one of her books, but there's also her excellent
web
> > site
> > which generously includes a number of essays, syllabi, etc.:
> >
> > http://www.muohio.edu/~finchar
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From groggydays  Wed Sep  5 05:58:28 2001
From: groggydays (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 10:58:28 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] House with its Own Island
References: <20010905024743.025168@oak.cc.conncoll.edu>
Message-ID: <OE731WE9ql2RkeS8Ykd00000651@hotmail.com>

I was delighted to discover when I could finally afford to get to
> Europe that all the qualities of the ugly American have good pedigree in
> Britain, France, and Germany.

I wholeheartedly agree with that, Wendy. Interested in yr observation about
the US having to enforce the bias to be a country.

Best

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Wendy Battin" <wjbat at conncoll.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 7:47 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] House with its Own Island


> We're certainly insensitive to the nationalities of our sources, and we
> should pay more attention.   I'd say in our defense that we have to
> enforce that bias to be a country; the USA is stone soup and just soup,
> and I was delighted to discover when I could finally afford to get to
> Europe that all the qualities of the ugly American have good pedigree in
> Britain, France, and Germany.  If you're wondering, Mr. Bircumshaw,
> nobody reads us either, and I enjoyed your first post..
>
> yrs, Wendy Battin
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From groggydays  Wed Sep  5 06:05:00 2001
From: groggydays (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 11:05:00 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
References: <E7C06C25D501D511BA9900508BB82AA90DE182@ness.agnesscott.edu>
Message-ID: <OE22R5YJoqCO3vJ0ApI00002f3e@hotmail.com>

> I thought poets tended to be among the well-to-do, that is, the unlikely
to
> get shot, die of starvation or sit at the welfare line variety. Then
again,
> the idea of useful criticism

dunno about that, I don't personally know any poets who've been shot lately,
tho' I can think of plenty of historical examples, but I certainly know some
who either do or could be sitting in the welfare line.

Best

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Prentiss, Amber" <aprentiss at agnesscott.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 9:39 AM
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay


> I thought poets tended to be among the well-to-do, that is, the unlikely
to
> get shot, die of starvation or sit at the welfare line variety. Then
again,
> the idea of useful criticism (for criticism, what I've encountered of it,
> doesn't usually seem to be a thing of beauty which needs no use),
> But what else do we have to do except introspect? I can go to Wal-Mart. I
> can try to catch up with my neighbors (at home home, not college home) and
> hope that they don't move next year. I can call my grandma. I can read
until
> I get a headache or watch TV. It seems to me that my society is
> self-centered because it's entirely too large and mobile to really be a
> coherent society in the first place. The only thing that anyone can be
> pretty sure of sticking around until death is self. If many Americans seem
> to be against selfhood, maybe they're really just against the apparent
lack
> of group identity. Maybe people are tired of being a /self/ with nothing
to
> orbit, but how can they join communities that far too often don't exist?
> It's a sort of implosion - there's nothing to expand to, so the self falls
> into itself. Or whatever.
>
> Are fake lyric 'I's any better/worse than the real thing?
>
> -Amber
>
> (And yes, you could but indulge, but you didn't, just as I could have done
> everything but write this parenthetical comment, yet I did. Pet peeve.)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Bircumshaw
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 9/4/2001 7:46 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
>
> As this originates from what (to me) appears the most narcissistic and
> self-centered society on the face of the earth I cannot but indulge in
> an
> ironic smile, the paradox of well-to-do North Americans inveigling
> against
> Selfhood while promoting themselves is rather present to me.
>
> I do agree with aspects of the critique of Self as Presentation in
> poetry,
> but at the same time I'd insist that the true lyric 'I' is as if
> anonymous,
> voice that is not personality-property, that rings in one's ears as if
> one's
> own.
>
> Of course, I'm not an American (US variety) so I expect no response to
> this
> message.
>
> (apologies btw to some very fine US folk I like a lot, you're all not
> included in my critique)
>
>
> Best
>
> Dave
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Graham, David" <GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 6:37 PM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
>
>
> > Annie Finch's excellent essay ("Coherent Decentering: Towards A New
> Model
> Of
> > The Poetic Self") first appeared in an issue of Fence magazine in
> > Fall/Winter 2000-01--in a symposium on "subjectivity and style."  She
> later
> > expanded it for Kate Sontag's and my anthology *After Confession:
> Poetry
> as
> > Autobiography*, due out any day now from Graywolf.  A revised version
> of
> > Claudia Rankine's essay from the same issue of Fence also appears in
> our
> > collection, along with many other delights.
> >
> > When the book is actually available I'll post more info on it, but
> (plug
> > plug) it's already ready for pre-ordering from Amazon, Barnes & Noble,
> and
> > your favorite independent bookshop.
> >
> > The original Fence issue is well worth looking up. Partial contents
> > (including Rankine but not Finch) available online:
> > http://www.fencemag.com/v3n2/index.html
> >
> > David Graham
> >
> > ===================
> > David Graham
> > grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> > ===================
> >
> > > ----------
> > > From: Cadaly at aol.com
> > > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 11:48 AM
> > > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
> > >
> > > I'm sure it is in one of her books, but there's also her excellent
> web
> > > site
> > > which generously includes a number of essays, syllabi, etc.:
> > >
> > > http://www.muohio.edu/~finchar
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From CobbCoStudioArts  Wed Sep  5 09:09:20 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 06:09:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
Message-ID: <20010905131256.52606274E@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From CobbCoStudioArts  Wed Sep  5 09:11:57 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 06:11:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
Message-ID: <20010905131315.49A3E2755@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From CobbCoStudioArts  Wed Sep  5 09:12:28 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 06:12:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
Message-ID: <20010905131340.BCC4636F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From CobbCoStudioArts  Wed Sep  5 09:20:45 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 06:20:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
Message-ID: <20010905132055.BC0352756@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From groggydays  Wed Sep  5 09:39:47 2001
From: groggydays (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:39:47 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
References: <20010905132055.BC0352756@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <OE49b0aLDzHiGYDasSU00003050@hotmail.com>

I think there a quite a few Russian ghosts that might complain at being
omitted, Bob.

As well as Lorca.

btw I got four copies of yr post.


Best

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert R.Cobb" <CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 2:20 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay


> David & Amber,
>
> The last and only poet that I can recall getting shot was John Lennon.
>
> Bob Cobb
>
> --- "David Bircumshaw" <groggydays at hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >> I thought poets tended to be among the well-to-do, that is, the
unlikely
> >to
> >> get shot, die of starvation or sit at the welfare line variety. Then
> >again,
> >> the idea of useful criticism
> >
> >dunno about that, I don't personally know any poets who've been shot
lately,
> >tho' I can think of plenty of historical examples, but I certainly know
some
> >who either do or could be sitting in the welfare line.
> >
> >Best
> >
> >Dave
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Prentiss, Amber" <aprentiss at agnesscott.edu>
> >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 9:39 AM
> >Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
> >
> >
> >> I thought poets tended to be among the well-to-do, that is, the
unlikely
> >to
> >> get shot, die of starvation or sit at the welfare line variety. Then
> >again,
> >> the idea of useful criticism (for criticism, what I've encountered of
it,
> >> doesn't usually seem to be a thing of beauty which needs no use),
> >> But what else do we have to do except introspect? I can go to Wal-Mart.
I
> >> can try to catch up with my neighbors (at home home, not college home)
and
> >> hope that they don't move next year. I can call my grandma. I can read
> >until
> >> I get a headache or watch TV. It seems to me that my society is
> >> self-centered because it's entirely too large and mobile to really be a
> >> coherent society in the first place. The only thing that anyone can be
> >> pretty sure of sticking around until death is self. If many Americans
seem
> >> to be against selfhood, maybe they're really just against the apparent
> >lack
> >> of group identity. Maybe people are tired of being a /self/ with
nothing
> >to
> >> orbit, but how can they join communities that far too often don't
exist?
> >> It's a sort of implosion - there's nothing to expand to, so the self
falls
> >> into itself. Or whatever.
> >>
> >> Are fake lyric 'I's any better/worse than the real thing?
> >>
> >> -Amber
> >>
> >> (And yes, you could but indulge, but you didn't, just as I could have
done
> >> everything but write this parenthetical comment, yet I did. Pet peeve.)
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: David Bircumshaw
> >> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> Sent: 9/4/2001 7:46 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
> >>
> >> As this originates from what (to me) appears the most narcissistic and
> >> self-centered society on the face of the earth I cannot but indulge in
> >> an
> >> ironic smile, the paradox of well-to-do North Americans inveigling
> >> against
> >> Selfhood while promoting themselves is rather present to me.
> >>
> >> I do agree with aspects of the critique of Self as Presentation in
> >> poetry,
> >> but at the same time I'd insist that the true lyric 'I' is as if
> >> anonymous,
> >> voice that is not personality-property, that rings in one's ears as if
> >> one's
> >> own.
> >>
> >> Of course, I'm not an American (US variety) so I expect no response to
> >> this
> >> message.
> >>
> >> (apologies btw to some very fine US folk I like a lot, you're all not
> >> included in my critique)
> >>
> >>
> >> Best
> >>
> >> Dave
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Graham, David" <GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU>
> >> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >> Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 6:37 PM
> >> Subject: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
> >>
> >>
> >> > Annie Finch's excellent essay ("Coherent Decentering: Towards A New
> >> Model
> >> Of
> >> > The Poetic Self") first appeared in an issue of Fence magazine in
> >> > Fall/Winter 2000-01--in a symposium on "subjectivity and style."  She
> >> later
> >> > expanded it for Kate Sontag's and my anthology *After Confession:
> >> Poetry
> >> as
> >> > Autobiography*, due out any day now from Graywolf.  A revised version
> >> of
> >> > Claudia Rankine's essay from the same issue of Fence also appears in
> >> our
> >> > collection, along with many other delights.
> >> >
> >> > When the book is actually available I'll post more info on it, but
> >> (plug
> >> > plug) it's already ready for pre-ordering from Amazon, Barnes &
Noble,
> >> and
> >> > your favorite independent bookshop.
> >> >
> >> > The original Fence issue is well worth looking up. Partial contents
> >> > (including Rankine but not Finch) available online:
> >> > http://www.fencemag.com/v3n2/index.html
> >> >
> >> > David Graham
> >> >
> >> > ===================
> >> > David Graham
> >> > grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> >> > ===================
> >> >
> >> > > ----------
> >> > > From: Cadaly at aol.com
> >> > > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> > > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 11:48 AM
> >> > > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
> >> > >
> >> > > I'm sure it is in one of her books, but there's also her excellent
> >> web
> >> > > site
> >> > > which generously includes a number of essays, syllabi, etc.:
> >> > >
> >> > > http://www.muohio.edu/~finchar
> >> > >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > New-Poetry mailing list
> >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New-Poetry mailing list
> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New-Poetry mailing list
> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> ==
> Poetry Catamaran
>
> "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known
mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"
>
> Robert R. Cobb
> AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
> http://rrcobb.tripod.com
>
> _____________________________________________________________
> -----
> Check out my portfolio at www.talentx.com
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From aprentiss  Wed Sep  5 10:19:24 2001
From: aprentiss (Prentiss, Amber)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 10:19:24 -0400 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
Message-ID: <E7C06C25D501D511BA9900508BB82AA90DE183@ness.agnesscott.edu>

I didn't say that all (living, should've mentioned that) poets are living in
their own personal Baroque period, just that many, if not most, of them are
not toiling in abject poverty. Which, of course, does not meant that abject
poverty doesn't exist among poets.

My question about a true lyric I vs. a false one was actually serious. Why
would anyone want a poem to feel autobiographical? Is that good? Is it
possible? 

-Amber, who reminds herself not to post at 4 in the morning again.

-----Original Message-----
From: David Bircumshaw
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: 9/5/2001 6:05 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay

> I thought poets tended to be among the well-to-do, that is, the
unlikely
to
> get shot, die of starvation or sit at the welfare line variety. Then
again,
> the idea of useful criticism

dunno about that, I don't personally know any poets who've been shot
lately,
tho' I can think of plenty of historical examples, but I certainly know
some
who either do or could be sitting in the welfare line.

Best

Dave





From GrahamD  Wed Sep  5 10:29:53 2001
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 09:29:53 -0500 
Subject: [New-Poetry] McGuckian & Self
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDEC6@mail.ripon.edu>

I also find McGuckian's work rather opaque.  Interestingly, it's opaque in a
way unlike, say, Ashbery.  I haven't thought this out fully, but it seems to
me that Ashbery's feints toward representational meaning are just that--a
"complicated flirtation routine" as he says in "Mixed Feelings,"
deliberately not intended to consummate the relationship, so to speak.
McGuckian, on the other hand, at least in many of the poems I've seen, seems
to create a different tone.  It's as if she wants to plumb the full
complication of the experience--difficulty and resistance are clearly
prized, at every level, but there does seem to be some actual experience
shadowing the text.  In her work  I sense a desire quite unlike Ashbery's,
to express a self in all its vexing contradiction and complexity.  Not sure
Ashbery even acknowledges such a thing as selfhood, and he certainly is not
in the business of making any "I" clear.  But of course I can't prove any of
this--just the way their respective tones hit my whiskers.

"House With Its Own Island," to my ears, *sounds* rather like Lowell, not
just in some of her dancing-with-awkwardness phrasings and percussive
rhythms, but in its general attitude of presenting some "life studies,"
however obliquely.  Certainly more flirtation with narrative here, as
Finnegan noted.  

	                                              You lay in
>               with your whole body like an archer,
>               not in water either, but closing out the houseful,
>               the carpets, hangings, porringers and dishes,
>               all the number of my pewter platters.
> 
Filling her lyric with all those carpets and dishes, among other things, put
me in mind of Lowell, and of the countless heirs of Lowell who write what
may be called life study poems.  I don't know just what's happening here,
but it seems that something is.

Sorry to say I don't know the answer to this question:  does McGuckian write
in Irish, then translate to English?  Some of the phrasings in this poem do
seem like bad translationese.

David Graham


===================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
===================

> ----------
> From: 	JforJames at aol.com
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Tuesday, September 4, 2001 11:44 AM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	[New-Poetry] House with its Own Island
> 
> There is a confounding opacity to much of MeGuckian's 
> poetry...and this poem is no exception. Some nice sonic 
> things happening here; but I'm pretty much shut out. 
> It as if she' s purposefully jumbled some the phrasing to 
> keep the reader away from any narrative underpinnings. 
> Other lines are just awkwardly put down: "in the doubtful
> chair, /in the furrows of prayer/that were blowing up my minutes/
> like voluptuous-to-be-/disappeared-into lips."
> By & large the reader is teased with glimpses. Most of 
> what the poem has going for it is its mood of unease (or
> maybe it's just this reader's unease hearing an echo of 
> Eliot's remark that some writers believe emotions gain 
> intensity by being inarticulate).
> Finnegan
> ---
>         House with its Own Island
> 
>               It is now running into more than a week
>               of shine without heat, of something said to me
>               somewhere in a branch-cluttered side street.
>               My sleeping was only so-so, and I didn't know
>               where my feelings were to hurt the rock-part
>               of them, the most deceptive curve
>               of my sickness with sickness
>               so true to its winter self.
> 
>               For many days I wasted daylight
>               wishing for an extra moon, and trying
>               to get used to it enough to use
>               and keep it, almost wastefully alone,
>               in the spending day, in the doubtful
>               chair, in the furrows of prayer
>               that were blowing up my minutes
>               like voluptuous-to-be-
>               disappeared-into lips.
> 
>               My friend of a year, it was the worst year
>               I have spent on earth, not having realized
>               you were on earth, noticing eyefully
>               the unconsidered land and the shooting-up root
>               happening to me in March. You lay in
>               with your whole body like an archer,
>               not in water either, but closing out the houseful,
>               the carpets, hangings, porringers and dishes,
>               all the number of my pewter platters.
> 
>               Flame propping up my underflesh
>               and weary weathers anchored one end
>               of the bridge like a pair of thoughts
>               unsettling a book, some story
>               of something done with it:
>               you could protect the hours you liked best
>               seasoning the summer-deserted road,
>               living too high for me to have heaven
>               over with, reproving my wistfullest,
>               boat-worn, out-of-love return.
> 
> 
>               Medbh McGuckian
>               Shenandoah
>               Volume 51, Number 2-3
>               Summer/Fall 2001 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 



From groggydays  Wed Sep  5 10:43:08 2001
From: groggydays (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 15:43:08 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
References: <E7C06C25D501D511BA9900508BB82AA90DE183@ness.agnesscott.edu>
Message-ID: <OE17n3GCIFoPkG0rm3r00003165@hotmail.com>

It's a very tricky subject, Amber, the lyric 'I', and _I_ for one wouldn't
claim to have the answers. John Clare certainly wrote poems of the
indisputable 'I', as in 'I am', but too he was subject to other identities.
A pal of mine once said something on the lines of if she wrote in the second
or third person then maybe the poem was about her but if she wrote in the
first it was always fictional.

That was an off-the-cuff statement, not intended to be definitive, but I
liked the drift of it.

Know what you mean about writing posts at 4 am!


Best

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Prentiss, Amber" <aprentiss at agnesscott.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 3:19 PM
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay


> I didn't say that all (living, should've mentioned that) poets are living
in
> their own personal Baroque period, just that many, if not most, of them
are
> not toiling in abject poverty. Which, of course, does not meant that
abject
> poverty doesn't exist among poets.
>
> My question about a true lyric I vs. a false one was actually serious. Why
> would anyone want a poem to feel autobiographical? Is that good? Is it
> possible?
>
> -Amber, who reminds herself not to post at 4 in the morning again.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Bircumshaw
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 9/5/2001 6:05 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
>
> > I thought poets tended to be among the well-to-do, that is, the
> unlikely
> to
> > get shot, die of starvation or sit at the welfare line variety. Then
> again,
> > the idea of useful criticism
>
> dunno about that, I don't personally know any poets who've been shot
> lately,
> tho' I can think of plenty of historical examples, but I certainly know
> some
> who either do or could be sitting in the welfare line.
>
> Best
>
> Dave
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From jdavis  Wed Sep  5 11:03:17 2001
From: jdavis (Jordan Davis)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 11:03:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sympathy for McGuckian
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDEC6@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.33.0109051059190.19718-100000@panix3.panix.com>

Not sure why this particular poem of frustrated love rings solipsistic for
J Cervantes or Lowelly for D Graham - wouldn't there be a lot more
self-regard, more vanity, if there were Lowell in it? But I agree with
David that she does ALWAYS seem to be describing some lived experience,
usually one with strong emotions that are left unnamed in order to be
recognized for what they are. In that wise she's miles away from poets who
describe some received idea and leave it unexplored in order to be taken
for more intelligent than they are.

Aloha,
Jordan





From moira_russell  Wed Sep  5 11:05:00 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 07:05:00 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
Message-ID: <F56yepxeOFQGA4AcMlu0000bb83@hotmail.com>

>I thought poets tended to be among the well-to-do

I'm taking this to mean "American poets" -- as it does not apply to, say, 
Chilean poets, who did run a risk of getting shot.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

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From moira_russell  Wed Sep  5 11:07:15 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 07:07:15 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
Message-ID: <F673AmsfGdMNFmWAFsT0000b9bb@hotmail.com>

>I didn't say that all (living, should've mentioned that) poets are living 
>in their own personal Baroque period, just that many, if not most, of them 
>are not toiling in abject poverty.

So are you agreeing with Virginia Woolf that true poets can't survive 
amongst the working classes?  (Her big example was John Keats.)

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

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From TerryP17  Wed Sep  5 11:11:14 2001
From: TerryP17 (TerryP17 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 11:11:14 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dead Poets' Society
Message-ID: <159.7e8417.28c79a92@aol.com>

All--

<<The last and only poet that I can recall getting shot was John Lennon.>>

I have to admit to being a bit troubled by the above as well as the implication in another email that poets have nowhere to look but inward. First of all, I can think of at least one poet who's been shot in relatively recent history, Hungarian poet Miklos Radnoti, near the end of WW II. Go back a little further to WWI and you'll find excellent Brit anti-war soldier-poet Wilfred Owen got shot almost coincident with the signing of the Armistice.

Other writers and artists have also met unpleasant ends in the last 75-odd years, including Lorca (executed), composer Anton Webern (shot by an American soldier), French organist-composer Jehan Alain (shot by the Germans), etc. Polish-German-Mexican novelist B. Traven barely escaped execution in the 1920s and spent the rest of his life underground, still fearing assassination, particularly after Trotsky got nailed. I'm sure Pol Pot included plenty of poets, writers, and intellectuals in his enlightened attempt to make the world safe for his bizarre brand of Marxism, but only the bones are left to tell these tales. Stalin rubbed out as many Soviet writers, composers, and artists as he could find, some pretty well known in their day. He would happily have eliminated Profofiev and Shostakovich if they hadn't been so internationally well-known.

In the time of Alexander Pope, politicians mightily feared a satirical poet's pen. In ancient Ireland, if a local king discovered that the bard of another king was about to compose a satire upon him, he might hire a hit squad to silence that bard forever. Poets, writers, composers, and artists truly mattered not so long ago, and sometimes it cost them their lives. 

What I'm driving at is that poets were once an integral part of the brawling community around them. They didn't have to look inward for material--they confronted fresh material every day. I'm not so sure that most poets today are eager for this level of involvement with the world outside of the self.

Bonus question: Was John Lennon a poet or a lyricist?

--Terry Ponick 



From JackKerouac25  Wed Sep  5 11:52:15 2001
From: JackKerouac25 (JackKerouac25 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 11:52:15 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dead Poets' Society
Message-ID: <79.1a834f95.28c7a42f@aol.com>

<<Was John Lennon a poet or a lyricist?>>

A lyricist who wrote great songs, not poems.

Jeff Newberry
Dept. of English/Foreign Languages
University of West Florida

"It's all in the timing, this kind of rhyming."
--R.S. Gwynn





From paul.lake  Wed Sep  5 00:50:42 2001
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 23:50:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
In-Reply-To: <F673AmsfGdMNFmWAFsT0000b9bb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <B7BB1951.1AF6%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 9/5/01 10:07 AM, Moira Russell at moira_russell at hotmail.com wrote:

> 
>> I didn't say that all (living, should've mentioned that) poets are living
>> in their own personal Baroque period, just that many, if not most, of them
>> are not toiling in abject poverty.
> 
> So are you agreeing with Virginia Woolf that true poets can't survive
> amongst the working classes?  (Her big example was John Keats.)
> 
> Moira Russell
> Seattle, WA
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
Having worked in construction for two years and in the public schools for
two more, not to mention other summer and part-time jobs such as laborer and
cook, I'd have to say that it's damned difficult finding the time to read
and write if you're in the working class.  The relatively larger amount of
leisure time college teaching affords--even with a heavy load and half a
summer--makes it a lot easier to work as a writer.

Paul Lake




From cstroffo  Wed Sep  5 12:07:43 2001
From: cstroffo (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 09:07:43 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dead Poets' Society
References: <79.1a834f95.28c7a42f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3B964DCF.1D72AAB0@earthlink.net>

Maybe yeah, but to say it like that sounds snotty, Jack---

at least quite a few of them, Jack, are better than much of what you
call poetry
in MEXICO CITY BLUES, Jack.....

For that matter, much of DESOLATION ANGELS is better poetry
than much of what you call poetry in MEXICO CITY....

Maybe, then, to say "songs, not poems" is actually the opposite of a
put-down....

love,
Dead Gregory Corso23

JackKerouac25 at aol.com wrote:

> <<Was John Lennon a poet or a lyricist?>>
>
> A lyricist who wrote great songs, not poems.
>
> Jeff Newberry
> Dept. of English/Foreign Languages
> University of West Florida
>
> "It's all in the timing, this kind of rhyming."
> --R.S. Gwynn
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From cstroffo  Wed Sep  5 12:13:49 2001
From: cstroffo (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 09:13:49 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lyric I
References: <200109050335.f853Ze071502@mx16.mx.voyager.net> <OE43XB2POVXsUEvmuNk00002d9c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3B964F3D.EF885524@earthlink.net>


Okay, here's a poem I wrote when I like 14 years ago on the subject.....


Workshop Blues

I said bye-bye to the lyric ?I?
The moment she got in my fly
But now it comes back as a force
I probably need to pass this course.
Where can I go? What can I do?
As if I can get an answer from you
As if grass comes from yellow, from blue
And how can I say that I am pure
When the farthest sea still mixes with shore.
Yet to resign to conspicuous consumption,
Immediate contact as my combustion,
Is all perhaps that can be done
The way fat burns off from the sun.
But when the soda?s gone, the plastic remains
Will outlive me and you and brains
By being dead like the lyric ?I?
In a poem by some immortal guy.

chris



David Bircumshaw wrote:

> Bored with unpacking things.
>
> I wrote 'For My Father'.
>
> DB
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Graham" <grahamd at mail.ripon.edu>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 4:34 AM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Lyric I
>
> > I'm afraid I'm lost, David B.  I requested a look at a "true lyric I" poem
> > based on this statement of yours, which I struggle to follow:
> >
> > "I do agree with aspects of the critique of Self as Presentation in
> poetry,
> > but at the same time I'd insist that the true lyric 'I' is as if
> anonymous,
> > voice that is not personality-property, that rings in one's ears as if
> one's
> > own."
> >
> > Now you say that "by doing so I would be displaying the very opposite of
> > what I was propounding...."
> >
> > I'm afraid that's too cryptic for me, and I have no clearer idea what
> point
> > you were originally making.   Can you unpack this for us?
> >
> > Who wrote "For My Father," by the way?
> >
> > David G.
> >
> >
> > _______________________
> > David Graham
> > grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> > _______________________
> >
> > ----------
> > >From: "David Bircumshaw" <groggydays at hotmail.com>
> > >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE:  Annie Finch essay
> > >Date: Tue, Sep 4, 2001, 10:56 AM
> > >
> >
> > >That's a rather invidious challenge, Mr David G, because by doing so I
> would
> > >be displaying the very opposite of what I was propounding, I do take your
> > >point about the Anne Finch essay, I was simply and very deliberately
> trying
> > >to provoke further discussion (not being rude, really, because of the
> > >power-stratifications of the world it can be a temptation to cock a snook
> at
> > >the US at times, very poor of me I know. Tho' I would agree at the charge
> of
> > >impoliteness at British society in general. Our civility is very much of
> the
> > >surface.)
> > >
> > >Ok, here's a poem, a very _simple_ one'.
> > >
> > >David B.
> > >
> > >
> > >                         _For my father_
> > >
> > >Flemish bond, English bond, slap the trowel, plumb the line.
> > >Six o'clock, on the dot, up and out, work's about:
> > >_It's seven quid a week and a ten bob note._
> > >Billycan, in the hand, white outside, black within.
> > >Morning come, frozen bone; night and home, frozen bone.
> > >_It's seven quid a week and a ten bob note._
> > >Dawn and dusk: English bond; seven pound: frozen bound
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >----- Original Message -----
> > >From: "Graham, David" <GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU>
> > >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > >Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2001 4:41 PM
> > >Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Annie Finch essay
> > >
> > >
> >
> > >> Would David B. be willing to post a poem that displays the "true"
> lyric-I,
> > >> perhaps?  I'm all ears.
> > >>
> > >> David G.
> > >>
> > ====================================
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From aprentiss  Wed Sep  5 12:21:59 2001
From: aprentiss (Prentiss, Amber)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:21:59 -0400 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
Message-ID: <E7C06C25D501D511BA9900508BB82AA90DE184@ness.agnesscott.edu>

Nope. I was being fairly narrowminded in my first thought, but the more I
mull it over, the less it makes sense.
-amber

-----Original Message-----
From: Moira Russell
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: 9/5/01 11:07 AM
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay


>I didn't say that all (living, should've mentioned that) poets are
living 
>in their own personal Baroque period, just that many, if not most, of
them 
>are not toiling in abject poverty.

So are you agreeing with Virginia Woolf that true poets can't survive 
amongst the working classes?  (Her big example was John Keats.)

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

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From JforJames  Wed Sep  5 12:59:21 2001
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:59:21 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mary Barnard 1909-2001 (fwd)
Message-ID: <93.fd829a0.28c7b3e9@aol.com>

Date:   9/5/01 11:19:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time
From:   MatererT at missouri.edu (Timothy Materer)
Sender: owner-MODERN_POETS-L at lists.missouri.edu
Reply-to:   MODERN_POETS-L at lists.missouri.edu
To: MODERN_POETS-L at lists.missouri.edu

The following appeared on the Poetics list:

Sadly, a great spirit has left this world. Mary Barnard, whose Sappho
translations are at this point the most widely read, passed away last
Saturday. She was 91. I don't know if anyone on the list knows more
about her, but if so, please tell. She traveled to see Pound and
exchanged letters with Williams. Some of her work was published by
Laughlin. She worked at the Buffalo SUNY Library for a while and
helped establish the modern poetry collection. Her poetry is relaxed
and intelligent. It's a pleasure to read. Maybe she deserves at least
a token obit somewhere, but I'm afraid the big papers haven't noticed
yet, or don't care. Here in Portland, OR there is going to be some
sort of poetic memorial service. I don't know more yet. She grew up
in the logging community, went to Reed in the thirties, and lived
much of her later years in Vancouver Washington (just across the
river).

No need to post any Sappho here. Just search the web for Sappho and
you'll find many Barnard translations. I hope someone at the library,
who knows what she meant to Buffalo and modern poetry, reads this.





From moira_russell  Wed Sep  5 13:00:22 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 09:00:22 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dead Poets' Society
Message-ID: <F129SwHUAwqJbLMHOp6000040ce@hotmail.com>

Terry wrote:

><<The last and only poet that I can recall getting shot was John Lennon.>>
>I have to admit to being a bit troubled by the above as well as the 
>implication in another email that poets have nowhere to look but inward.

Not to sound unpleasant, but I think a lot of this has to do with being, 
well, American.  It is very unlikely we poets will be shot for anything we 
say in this country.  I think the First Amendment is a damngood thing, but I 
also think American poets are peculiarly isolated in a way which is 
immediately apparent when you take the time to look at a few examples from 
other countries, as Terry thoughtfully provided.  Despite the active 
political involvement of a lot of poets in this country (and no no no I 
don't think it would be a good thing poetically if there were American 
gulags or death squads or whatever), there is a certain "insubstantiality" 
(I've been wrestling with that word but can't think of a better one).

>Bonus question: Was John Lennon a poet or a lyricist?

Answer a question with a question:  are rock lyrics poetry?

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA


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From moira_russell  Wed Sep  5 13:04:41 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 09:04:41 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
Message-ID: <F71txKZGnu3xQwVnSr500008b1f@hotmail.com>

>Having worked in construction for two years and in the public schools for 
>two more, not to mention other summer and part-time jobs such as laborer 
>and cook, I'd have to say that it's damned difficult finding the time to 
>read and write if you're in the working class.

I'd agree.  It is also relatively hard finding time to write when working an 
8-5 job (evenings?  weekends?  what about the dishes?), so apparently that 
cuts poetry off for a lot of people, although Dana Gioia apparently managed 
to do it.  I'm just troubled by the implication that we all must be James 
Merrill.

>The relatively larger amount of
>leisure time college teaching affords--even with a heavy load and half a 
>summer--makes it a lot easier to work as a writer.

Here I really disagree with you.  Teaching took up nearly all of my time and 
energy when I did it with only two full classes as a TA at UNM some years 
ago.  Correcting student essays and stories and poems and exams also does 
not produce in me the urge to write.  Three members of the faculty decamped 
because they found it impossible to mix 
teaching/tenure-nursing/committee-sitting with writing.  I think the meme 
that teaching is the ideal job for a writer is not a good one.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA


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From JforJames  Wed Sep  5 13:21:00 2001
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:21:00 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dead Poets' Society
Message-ID: <125.4539c9d.28c7b8fc@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/5/01 1:01:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
moira_russell at hotmail.com writes:

> onus question: Was John Lennon a poet or a lyricist?
>  
>  Answer a question with a question:  are rock lyrics poetry?
>  
& what about rap? Certainly rappers have been victims of 
(& revelers in) gun violence in this country.
As an aside, I believe Gerald Stern was shot in an attempted 
carjacking/mugging, which he survived...
tho I'm not sure if he's written any poems or accounts of the
incident.
(This is a very odd subject.)
Finnegan



From duemer  Wed Sep  5 13:20:17 2001
From: duemer (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:20:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
References: <20010905131256.52606274E@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <006b01c1362f$088b6340$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

<<The last and only poet that I can recall getting shot was John Lennon.>>

But how about poets that oughta be shot? That's a larger category.

jd
======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750 
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
====================== 








From paul.lake  Wed Sep  5 02:50:33 2001
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 01:50:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Working and writing
Message-ID: <B7BB3569.1B04%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

"It is also relatively hard finding time to write when working an
8-5 job (evenings?  weekends?  what about the dishes?), so apparently that
cuts poetry off for a lot of people, although Dana Gioia apparently managed
to do it.  I'm just troubled by the implication that we all must be James
Merrill."

Moira, I'd sure like to have Merrill's means by I don't advocate that as the
only way for a poet to live.  And I know there are people for whom teaching
and writing are mutually exclusive, so I don't think teaching is the only
way for a writer to earn a living.

I knew Dana Gioia during his business days. He maintained an absolutely iron
discipline to write the poems and essays of that period. Coming home after
ten and twelve hour days, he'd shut himself up in his room every night at a
certain time, I think from nine till something, and write.  It makes me
shudder to even contemplate such a regimen.  But that was before he had
children.  He still maintains long hours as a writer and editor, though, as
Sam Gwynn, his sometimes collaborator, can attest.

Paul Lake




From moira_russell  Wed Sep  5 14:23:00 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 10:23:00 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Working and writing
Message-ID: <F46rGlloEfT3pkGf4de0000ac39@hotmail.com>

>I knew Dana Gioia during his business days. He maintained an absolutely 
>iron discipline to write the poems and essays of that period. Coming home 
>after ten and twelve hour days, he'd shut himself up in his room every 
>night at a certain time, I think from nine till something, and write.  It 
>makes me shudder to even contemplate such a regimen.  But that was before 
>he had children.

Yes, I think he mentions he became unhappy with what he saw as his neglect 
of his family in one of the "Can Poetry Matter" essays.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

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From CobbCoStudioArts  Wed Sep  5 14:29:18 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 11:29:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
Message-ID: <20010905182921.05BD72757@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From Rsgwynn1  Wed Sep  5 14:36:26 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:36:26 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Millay
Message-ID: <2d.1081db71.28c7caaa@cs.com>

Interesting essay-review of two Millay biographies in this week's New Yorker.
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From paul.lake  Wed Sep  5 03:44:03 2001
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 02:44:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Millay
In-Reply-To: <2d.1081db71.28c7caaa@cs.com>
Message-ID: <B7BB41F3.1B0A%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 9/5/01 1:36 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

> Interesting essay-review of two Millay biographies in this week's New Yorker.

There was also a nice article on Millay in last month?s Vanity Fair.

Paul Lake 
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From paul.lake  Wed Sep  5 03:58:17 2001
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 02:58:17 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Millay
Message-ID: <B7BB4549.1B0A%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Another new article on Millay at the following, from The New Criterion:

http://www.newcriterion.com/


Paul Lake




From TerryP17  Wed Sep  5 15:18:06 2001
From: TerryP17 (TerryP17 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 15:18:06 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dead Poets' Society, Lennon's Tomb, and Rappers
Message-ID: <149.1188923.28c7d46f@aol.com>

Moira--

You wrote:

<<Not to sound unpleasant, but I think a lot of this has to do with being, 
well, American.  It is very unlikely we poets will be shot for anything we 
say in this country.  I think the First Amendment is a damngood thing, but I 
also think American poets are peculiarly isolated in a way which is 
immediately apparent when you take the time to look at a few examples from 
other countries, as Terry thoughtfully provided.  Despite the active 
political involvement of a lot of poets in this country (and no no no I 
don't think it would be a good thing poetically if there were American 
gulags or death squads or whatever), there is a certain "insubstantiality" 
(I've been wrestling with that word but can't think of a better one).>>

Good point about the death and violence being mostly a Euro and 3rd world sort of thing when it comes to poets and writers, a little bit of what I was getting at. Poetry, at least in my view, is relatively safe in this country, below the radar screen, and you don't take your life in your hands when you write a poem, even if rhyming might endanger your career in some creative writing departments. I am wondering aloud pretty much what you are talking about, i.e., why do our poets these days generally NOT risk getting in the line of fire at least political or social fire and play it safe pretty much writing about themselves? The Euro and other writers and artists I cited were generally offed because the prevailing government viewed their work as extremely dangerous. I wonder which of our poets is "extremely dangerous" enough to shoot today, at least in that sense.

>Bonus question: Was John Lennon a poet or a lyricist?

Answer a question with a question:  are rock lyrics poetry?>>

Are rock lyrics poetry? Aha, answering my provocation with a provocation! My answer: pretty much no, particularly today. Reason: most lyrics are, content-wise, pretty banal and repetitive, not in the ballad-refrain sense, but in the limited-idea sense. You could make a case for Lennon. Profs regularly make a case for Dylan, or did, in order to build enrollment for undergraduate electives, but I'm not so sure we're dealing with Wordsworths and Coleridges here. You could make a better case for Cole Porter and Ira Gershwin. Sentimental, sure, but a real grasp of technique, appreciation for language, and often a genuine sense of puckish humor, although Porter could be dark at times. 

Even more provocative is the dilemma of rap. Although frequently clever, this is often really nasty, anti-female, lowlife stuff. But these guys (and they ARE usually guys) are masters of meter and rhyme in their own fashion. Wonder what the Formalistas think of this? 

--Terry Ponick 



From GrahamD  Wed Sep  5 15:20:14 2001
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:20:14 -0500 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Millay
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDECA@mail.ripon.edu>

The New Yorker essay on Millay is available online, by the way:

http://www.newyorker.com/THE_CRITICS/BOOKS/

It's no surprise, of course, that Judith Thurman's New Yorker essay has a
lot more to say about Millay's life than about her work-- most of what she
says about the poetry is negative, and so is most of what she says about
Millay's character.  But I still would have liked more attention to the
poetry.  

Dinitia Smith's article about Millay from The New York Times is also online:

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/30/books/30MILL.html?searchpv=nytToday

David Graham

===================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
===================

> ----------
> From: 	Paul Lake
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Wednesday, September 5, 2001 2:58 AM
> To: 	New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	[New-Poetry] Millay
> 
> Another new article on Millay at the following, from The New Criterion:
> 
> http://www.newcriterion.com/
> 
> 
> Paul Lake
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 



From moira_russell  Wed Sep  5 15:58:34 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 11:58:34 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Millay
Message-ID: <F126sT46SDPoJhRTHjm00009568@hotmail.com>

Not to beat a dead horse to death, but the "New Criterion" piece seems 
yuckily dismissive of Millay in sort of typical 
look-at-the-female-poet-with-big-hair style.  Maybe this is the style of the 
biographies as well, as Kennedy says:

"Epstein places the turning point of ["Renasence"] in the young poet?s visit 
to the town of Kingman, where she enjoyed a brief reconciliation with her 
father, attracted the resident young blades, and flirted with the fiddle 
player of the Kickapoo-Laguna Vaudeville Medicine Show. Life could be 
beautiful.

"In both these new lives of the poet, much is made of Millay?s physical 
beauty and her flamboyant theatricality. On the streets of Camden, passersby 
would stop to gape at the slim, pale girl with long, flowing red hair. 
Later, Arthur Ficke, who had been a lover, called her disproportionately 
large breasts ?the most curiously ?naked? breasts I have ever seen.? Her 
unconventional beauty?clear green eyes, pouty little-bad-girl mouth?would 
draw both men and women to her as a magnet attracts loose staples.

"Giving readings in her maturity, Millay would put on an overpowering 
show....Long before the reading tours of Dylan Thomas, Millay was traipsing 
the continent. She knew how to bowl ?em over in Des Moines."

I guess Millay is now going to be a sort of feminist sexual heroine by 
virtue of her life, not her poetry.  That is too bad.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

Wise Wretch! with Pleasures too refin'd to please;
With too much Spirit to be e'er at ease;
With too much Quickness ever to be taught;
With too much Thinking to have common Thought:
You purchase Pain with all that Joy can give,
And die of nothing but a Rage to live.
-- Alexander Pope

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From moira_russell  Wed Sep  5 16:06:45 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 12:06:45 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Millay
Message-ID: <F138PEN1e9okrY71GGy0000b004@hotmail.com>

It is a bit disappointing to see Judith Thurman, who wrote a great biograpy 
of Isak Dinesen, jumping on the 
Millay-was-a-junkie-and-promiscuous-hedonist-and-not-a-poet bandwagon, 
although I greatly enjoyed Thomas Hardy thought the greatest two productions 
of America were Edna St. Vincent Millay and skyscrapers.  It is also 
interesting to see Millay's star shot that high and then vanished so 
completely -- presumably sunk under the tide of Eliot which washed nearly 
everything else away.  I think I rather fuzzily knew as a girl that Milly 
had been the first woman to win the Pulitzer, and my parents gave me a copy 
of her complete poems when I was twelve or thirteen or so -- some other 
female writer friends of mine received similar gifts.  It is interesting 
that Millay turned into a gift for precocious girls, almost as interesting 
as her poetry being dismissed as "female rhyming."  What puts me off most of 
Millay's poetry, despite her technical skill, is a certain staginess, 
although I haven't really seen that addressed in any of the reviews yet  -- 
more an emphasis on the theatricality of her life and which lines of poetry 
the critic particularly dislikes.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

>http://www.newyorker.com/THE_CRITICS/BOOKS/



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From moira_russell  Wed Sep  5 16:07:21 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 12:07:21 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Millay
Message-ID: <F139u9MZcpYyFgnDXpJ0000b11d@hotmail.com>

It is a bit disappointing to see Judith Thurman, who wrote a great biograpy 
of Isak Dinesen, jumping on the 
Millay-was-a-junkie-and-promiscuous-hedonist-and-not-a-poet bandwagon, 
although I greatly enjoyed Thomas Hardy thought the greatest two productions 
of America were Edna St. Vincent Millay and skyscrapers.  It is also 
interesting to see Millay's star shot that high and then vanished so 
completely -- presumably sunk under the tide of Eliot which washed nearly 
everything else away.  I think I rather fuzzily knew as a girl that Milly 
had been the first woman to win the Pulitzer, and my parents gave me a copy 
of her complete poems when I was twelve or thirteen or so -- some other 
female writer friends of mine received similar gifts.  It is interesting 
that Millay turned into a gift for precocious girls, almost as interesting 
as her poetry being dismissed as "female rhyming."  What puts me off most of 
Millay's poetry, despite her technical skill, is a certain staginess, 
although I haven't really seen that addressed in any of the reviews yet  -- 
more an emphasis on the theatricality of her life and which lines of poetry 
the critic particularly dislikes.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

>http://www.newyorker.com/THE_CRITICS/BOOKS/



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From moira_russell  Wed Sep  5 16:20:32 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 12:20:32 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dead Poets' Society, Lennon's Tomb, and Rappers
Message-ID: <F9AWVrDHFKjx2XDniY50000adaf@hotmail.com>

Terry wrote:

>Good point about the death and violence being mostly a Euro and 3rd world 
>sort of thing when it comes to poets and writers, a little bit of what I 
>was getting at. Poetry, at least in my view, is relatively safe in this 
>country, below the radar screen, and you don't take your life in your hands 
>when you write a poem, even if rhyming might endanger your career in some 
>creative writing departments.

Ha, good point.  But even that would take place within the academic world.

>I am wondering aloud pretty much what you are talking about, i.e., why do 
>our poets these days generally NOT risk getting in the line of fire at 
>least political or social fire and play it safe pretty much writing about 
>themselves? The Euro and other writers and artists I cited were generally 
>offed because the prevailing government viewed their work as extremely 
>dangerous. I wonder which of our poets is "extremely dangerous" enough to 
>shoot today, at least in that sense.

The last time I am personally aware of a poet joining up with a really large 
political group in the US is Robert Lowell and Norman Mailer at the Pentagon 
protest, although if anyone knows of something similar occurring later, 
please tell me....

>Are rock lyrics poetry? Aha, answering my provocation with a provocation! 
>My answer: pretty much no, particularly today. Reason: most lyrics are, 
>content-wise, pretty banal and repetitive, not in the ballad-refrain sense, 
>but in the limited-idea sense. You could make a case for Lennon. Profs 
>regularly make a case for Dylan, or did, in order to build enrollment for 
>undergraduate electives, but I'm not so sure we're dealing with Wordsworths 
>and Coleridges here. You could make a better case for Cole Porter and Ira 
>Gershwin. Sentimental, sure, but a real grasp of technique, appreciation 
>for language, and often a genuine sense of puckish humor, although Porter 
>could be dark at times.

Getting into the snarly realm of are-song-lyrics-art....I confess I can't 
really read Porter or Gershwin lyrics, lovely though they are, without 
missing the melodies behind them.  Perhaps that comes from being raised by a 
musician.  I enjoy reading the lyrics of Bob Dylan and Leonard Cohen and Lou 
Reed, but they generally aren't as rewarding of really deep reading as 
poetry is for me.  I'm particularly fond of Elizabethan songs, a lot of 
which can stand as poetry purely on their own for people who have never 
heard the music ("The silver swan, who living had no note" for example).  
However, when you hear, for example, Dowland poetry actually _sung_ it's 
really difficult to make out the words.  I've long had a personal theory 
that really absolutely terrific lyrics -- poetry if you will -- actually 
hinders when you listen to a song, or aria in an opera, or whatever;  you 
wind up concentrating too hard on the words and not paying enough attention 
to the music.  Also, it can be hard to understand English as sung not spoken 
and trying to make a melody fit a line, or the other way around, squares or 
even cubes the original difficulty of writing poetry or music.

>Even more provocative is the dilemma of rap. Although frequently clever, 
>this is often really nasty, anti-female, lowlife stuff. But these guys (and 
>they ARE usually guys) are masters of meter and rhyme in their own fashion. 
>Wonder what the Formalistas think of this?

Hey, there are girls, too:  don't forget Missy "Misdemeanor" Eliot, Eve, 
Jill Scott, Lauryn Hill, Queen Latifah, etc. (Jill Scott's record is 
particularly enjoyable).  The persona of most rappers is nasty, definitely, 
even with the technical skill -- usually metrical -- displayed.  Remember 
the early days of rap when rappers improvised live to a background of music? 
  Now people who can do that, especially for longer than five minutes, are 
interesting.  Re rap/poetry and politics -- there's definitely a political 
edge to rap, as when someone called it "the CNN of the streets."  But that 
seems to have been more or less commodified and commercialized into a 
celebration of the gansta lifestyle, with lots of emphasis on the neat stuff 
you can buy, and little emphasis on the social environment that makes it 
possible.

As a complete aside I remember poetry written by Margaret Atwood and Carolyn 
Forche which detailed out-of-the-US atrocities.  I wonder if any US poets 
are writing similar stuff today.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

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From robin.hamilton2  Wed Sep  5 16:30:45 2001
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 21:30:45 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] McGuckian & Self
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDEC6@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <013f01c13649$c79c3420$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3>

"Graham, David" <GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU>

> Sorry to say I don't know the answer to this question:  does McGuckian
write
> in Irish, then translate to English?

Doubt it.  Isn't she the in the Dublin/Belfast anglospeak axis?

The Gaeltacht has been fucked, not to say fucked over.  There's stuff coming
from Scotland -- Sorley Maclean, Angus Nicolson, et alia -- but as for
Welsh/Cornish/Irish Erse ...   Forget about it ...

Sad but true.

> Some of the phrasings in this poem do
> seem like bad translationese.

CONCUR

Robin Hamilton






From duemer  Wed Sep  5 17:06:42 2001
From: duemer (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 17:06:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dead Poets' Society, Lennon's Tomb, and Rappers
References: <F9AWVrDHFKjx2XDniY50000adaf@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <013801c1364e$aa5c28c0$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

<<As a complete aside I remember poetry written by Margaret Atwood and
Carolyn Forche which detailed out-of-the-US atrocities.  I wonder if any US
poets are writing similar stuff today.>>

There are a number of poets who came out of the Viet Nam war who write about
that experience, notably Bruce Weigl & John Balaban. (Balaban has also
translated the proto-feminist 18th century Vietnamese poet Ho Xuan Huong.)
Weigl was a US soldier in VN & Balaban a Quaker conscientious objector &
volunteer in a hospital during the war. Both were certainly at risk of being
shot & both have written movingly & in a public voice about what they saw.

Not to toot my own horn, but in my forthcoming book (Magical Thinking, OSU
Press) there are poems about police tampering with evidence, as well as
about the genocide in Rwanda & the use of children to fight the civil war in
Mozambique. I don't think I'm all that unusual.

jd
======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
======================








From JackKerouac25  Wed Sep  5 17:53:01 2001
From: JackKerouac25 (JackKerouac25 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 17:53:01 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dead Poets' Society
Message-ID: <29.1a39a5b6.28c7f8bd@aol.com>

In a message dated Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:07:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino <cstroffo at earthlink.net> writes:

> Maybe yeah, but to say it like that sounds snotty, Jack---
> 
> at least quite a few of them, Jack, are better than much of what you
> call poetry
> in MEXICO CITY BLUES, Jack.....
> 
> For that matter, much of DESOLATION ANGELS is better poetry
> than much of what you call poetry in MEXICO CITY....
> 
> Maybe, then, to say "songs, not poems" is actually the opposite of a
> put-down....
> 
> love,
> Dead Gregory Corso23
> 
> JackKerouac25 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> > <<Was John Lennon a poet or a lyricist?>>
> >
> > A lyricist who wrote great songs, not poems.
> >
> > Jeff Newberry
> > Dept. of English/Foreign Languages
> > University of West Florida
> >
> > "It's all in the timing, this kind of rhyming."
> > --R.S. Gwynn
> >


Hmm....

I think this is the first time I've ever been outright attacked because my email address.  

For the record, I think that much of the "poetry" (quotes intentional) that Kerouac wrote was rather banal, as was much of the fiction that Corso wrote.  I mean, come on..._Naked Lunch_?  

Oh...Terry, I'm a New Formalist supporter, and I think that while much rap is clever with its wordplay, I'm sure that I'd classify it as poetry.  

Of course, all of this is my opinion; but, hey, cast your stones; I suppose I deserve it.

Jeff Newberry
Department of English and Foreign Languages
University of West Florida



From moira_russell  Wed Sep  5 17:57:24 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 13:57:24 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dead Poets' Society, Lennon's Tomb, and Rappers
Message-ID: <F135bcFTpSR6HEAHoxv00003935@hotmail.com>

>There are a number of poets who came out of the Viet Nam war who write 
>about that experience, notably Bruce Weigl & John Balaban. (Balaban has 
>also translated the proto-feminist 18th century Vietnamese poet Ho Xuan 
>Huong.) Weigl was a US soldier in VN & Balaban a Quaker conscientious 
>objector & volunteer in a hospital during the war.

They certainly do sound interesting.  I would bet there are anthologies of 
Vietnam veterans poetry around somewhere.  Balaban sounds a bit like Lowell 
in his US confinement.  However, not to sound slighting or anything, but 
this does seem to emphasize the point that most US poets have to go 
_outside_ the country to experience the hardship poets in other areas face 
as a matter of course.  I think the point was not so much whether or not US 
poets have been shot at, as whether or not poetry in the US can be some kind 
of seditious act/criminal offense -- whether it has ever been or ever will 
be taken that seriously.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

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From gmcvay  Wed Sep  5 18:40:21 2001
From: gmcvay (Gwyn McVay)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 18:40:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dead Poets' Society
In-Reply-To: <29.1a39a5b6.28c7f8bd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0109051826160.30120-100000@adams.patriot.net>

>>>For the record, I think that much of the "poetry" (quotes intentional)
that Kerouac wrote was rather banal, as was much of the fiction that Corso
wrote. I mean, come on..._Naked Lunch_?<<<

Corso's authorship of /Naked Lunch/ is going to surprise the heck out of
the William S. Burroughs estate. Good scholarly coup, Ti-Jean.

As to the self-proclaimed Few Normalists, I admit there's clever wordplay
there, but I don't think I'd classify it as poetry.

Gwyn





From alphavil  Wed Sep  5 19:10:31 2001
From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 19:10:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dead Poets' Society
References: <29.1a39a5b6.28c7f8bd@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3B96B0E7.3A2A9BB5@ix.netcom.com>

Selling is more of a habit than using,' Lupita says. Nonusing pushers have a contact habit, and that's one you can't kick. Agents
get it too. Take Bradley the Buyer. Best narcotics agent in the industry. Anyone would make him for junk. (Note: Make in the
sense of dig or size up.) I mean he can walk up to a pusher and score direct. He is so anonymous, grey and spectral the pusher
don't remember him afterwards. So he twists one after the other ...

Well the Buyer comes to look more and more like a junky. He can't drink. He can't get it up. His teeth fall out. (Like pregnant
women lose their teeth feeding the stranger, junkies lose their yellow fangs feeding the monkey.) He is all the time sucking on a
candy bar. Baby Ruths he digs special. 'It really disgust you to see the Buyer sucking on them candy bars so nasty,' a cop says.

The Buyer takes on an ominous grey-green color. Fact is his body is making its own junk or equivalent. The Buyer has a steady
connection. A Man Within you might say. Or so he thinks. 'I'll just set in my room,' he says. 'Fuck 'em all. Squares on both
sides. I am the only complete man in the industry.'

But a yen comes on him like a great black wind through the bones. So the Buyer hunts up a young junky and gives him a paper
to make it.

'Oh all right,' the boy says. 'So what you want to make?'

'I just want to rub against you and get fixed.'

'Ugh ... Well all right ... But why cancha just get physical like a human?'

Later the boy is sitting in a Waldorf with two colleagues dunking pound cake. 'Most distasteful thing I ever stand still for,' he
says. 'Some way he make himself all soft like a blob of jelly and surround me so nasty. Then he gets well all over like with green
slime. So I guess he come to some kinda awful climax ... I come near wigging with that green stuff all over me, and he stink like
a old rotten cantaloupe.'

'Well it's still an easy score.'

The boy signed resignedly; 'Yes, I guess you can get used to anything. I've got a meet with him again tomorrow.'

The Buyer's habit keeps getting heavier. He needs a recharge every half hour. Sometimes he cruises the precincts and bribes
the turnkey to let him in with a cell of junkies. It gets to where no amount of contact will fix him. At this point he receives a
summons from the District Supervisor:

'Bradley, your conduct has given rise to rumors -- and I hope for your sake they are no more than that -- so unspeakably
distasteful that ... I mean Caesar's wife ... hrump ... that is, the Department must be above suspicion ... certainly above such
suspicions as you have seemingly aroused. You are lowering the entire tone of the industry. We are prepared to accept your
immediate resignation.'

The Buyer throws himself on the ground and crawls over to the D.S. 'No, Boss Man, no ... The Department is my very lifeline.'

He kisses the D.S.'s hand thrusting his fingers into his mouth (the D.S. must feel his toothless gums) complaining he has lost his
teeth 'inna thervith.' 'Please Boss Man, I'll wipe your ass, I'll wash out your dirty condoms, I'll polish your shoes with the oil on
my nose ...'

'Really, this is most distasteful! Have you no pride? I must tell you I feel a distinct revulsion. I mean there is something, well,
rotten about you, and you smell like a compost heap.' He put a scented handkerchief in front of his face. 'I must ask you to
leave this office at once.'

'I'll do anything, Boss, anything.' His ravaged green face splits in a horrible smile. 'I'm still young, Boss, and I'm pretty strong
when I get my blood up.'

The D.S. retches into his handkerchief and points to the door with a limp hand. The Buyer stands up looking at the D.S.
dreamily. His body begins to dip like a dowser's wand. He flows forward ...

'No! No!' screams the D.S.

'Schlup ... schlup schlup.' An hour later they find the Buyer on the nod in the D.S.'s chair. The D.S. has disappeared without a
trace.

The Judge : 'Everything indicates that you have, in some unspeakable manner uh ... assimilated the District Supervisor.
Unfortunately there is no proof. I would recommend that you be confined or more accurately contained in some institution, but I
know of no place suitable for a man of your caliber. I must reluctantly order your release.'

'That one should stand in an aquarium,' says the arresting officer.

The Buyer spreads terror throughout the industry. Junkies and agents disappear. Like a vampire bat he gives off a narcotic
effluvium, a dank green mist that anesthizes his victims and renders them helpless in his enveloping presence. And once he has
scored he holes up for several days like a gorged boa constrictor. Finally he is caught in the act of digesting the Narcotics
Commissioner and destroyed with a flame thrower -- the court of inquiry ruling that such means were justified in that the Buyer
had lost his human citizenship and was, in consequence, a creature without species and a menace to the narcotics industry on all
levels.


JackKerouac25 at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:07:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino <cstroffo at earthlink.net> writes:
>
> > Maybe yeah, but to say it like that sounds snotty, Jack---
> >
> > at least quite a few of them, Jack, are better than much of what you
> > call poetry
> > in MEXICO CITY BLUES, Jack.....
> >
> > For that matter, much of DESOLATION ANGELS is better poetry
> > than much of what you call poetry in MEXICO CITY....
> >
> > Maybe, then, to say "songs, not poems" is actually the opposite of a
> > put-down....
> >
> > love,
> > Dead Gregory Corso23
> >
> > JackKerouac25 at aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > <<Was John Lennon a poet or a lyricist?>>
> > >
> > > A lyricist who wrote great songs, not poems.
> > >
> > > Jeff Newberry
> > > Dept. of English/Foreign Languages
> > > University of West Florida
> > >
> > > "It's all in the timing, this kind of rhyming."
> > > --R.S. Gwynn
> > >
>
> Hmm....
>
> I think this is the first time I've ever been outright attacked because my email address.
>
> For the record, I think that much of the "poetry" (quotes intentional) that Kerouac wrote was rather banal, as was much of the fiction that Corso wrote.  I mean, come on..._Naked Lunch_?
>
> Oh...Terry, I'm a New Formalist supporter, and I think that while much rap is clever with its wordplay, I'm sure that I'd classify it as poetry.
>
> Of course, all of this is my opinion; but, hey, cast your stones; I suppose I deserve it.
>
> Jeff Newberry
> Department of English and Foreign Languages
> University of West Florida
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From CobbCoStudioArts  Wed Sep  5 19:24:46 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 16:24:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Millay
Message-ID: <20010905232446.64BE82757@sitemail.everyone.net>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
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URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20010905/d38e54b3/attachment.ksh>


From Jholmes  Wed Sep  5 19:30:00 2001
From: Jholmes (Janet Holmes)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 17:30:00 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Political/social poetry and Lyrics as poetry
Message-ID: <sb96612d.035@bsu.boisestate.edu>

My cynical guess is that for a political/social poetry to thrive, there have to be political/social book and litmag publishers too, or poets wealthy enough to self-publish, distribute, & promote. I often hear stories about printers refusing to print magazines that contain poems or stories unpalatable to them--when I was in college in North Carolina, a printer refused to print our literary magazine, which contained a story that involved an interracial couple. Here in Idaho, practically anything offends somebody, and there've been incidents of printers refusing to release work that offends them religiously. It would not surprise me at all to find that poets whose subject matter is overwhelmingly political just don't get into print. 

To Joe's list of Vietnam era poets, I'd add Yusef Koumanyakaa.

Re: lyrics (and shameless self-promotion)--Harry Partch's lyrics were what some would call "found poetry" (graffiti written by hoboes discovered along a highway rail), and lyrics he wrote himself tended to be both poetic and socially engaged ("Tell me, Ulysses: you say you've traveled around the world. Have you ever been arrested?"). My book HUMANOPHONE features a long poem about Partch, and is just now out from U of Notre Dame Press.

Janet




From robin.hamilton2  Wed Sep  5 20:17:10 2001
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 01:17:10 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dead Poets' Society
References: <29.1a39a5b6.28c7f8bd@aol.com> <3B96B0E7.3A2A9BB5@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <004801c13669$4e9c0bc0$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3>

This is +really+ sad -- Burroughs did this in _The naked lunch_ way those
years ago.

Don't the chilluns read?

Or does (do?) Gancie and Parcelli assume we're all mouse-stoopid?

Robin

----- Original Message -----
From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 12:10 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Dead Poets' Society


> Selling is more of a habit than using,' Lupita says. Nonusing pushers have
a contact habit, and that's one you can't kick. Agents
> get it too. Take Bradley the Buyer. Best narcotics agent in the industry.
Anyone would make him for junk. (Note: Make in the
> sense of dig or size up.) I mean he can walk up to a pusher and score
direct. He is so anonymous, grey and spectral the pusher
> don't remember him afterwards. So he twists one after the other ...
>
> Well the Buyer comes to look more and more like a junky. He can't drink.
He can't get it up. His teeth fall out. (Like pregnant
> women lose their teeth feeding the stranger, junkies lose their yellow
fangs feeding the monkey.) He is all the time sucking on a
> candy bar. Baby Ruths he digs special. 'It really disgust you to see the
Buyer sucking on them candy bars so nasty,' a cop says.
>
> The Buyer takes on an ominous grey-green color. Fact is his body is making
its own junk or equivalent. The Buyer has a steady
> connection. A Man Within you might say. Or so he thinks. 'I'll just set in
my room,' he says. 'Fuck 'em all. Squares on both
> sides. I am the only complete man in the industry.'
>
> But a yen comes on him like a great black wind through the bones. So the
Buyer hunts up a young junky and gives him a paper
> to make it.
>
> 'Oh all right,' the boy says. 'So what you want to make?'
>
> 'I just want to rub against you and get fixed.'
>
> 'Ugh ... Well all right ... But why cancha just get physical like a
human?'
>
> Later the boy is sitting in a Waldorf with two colleagues dunking pound
cake. 'Most distasteful thing I ever stand still for,' he
> says. 'Some way he make himself all soft like a blob of jelly and surround
me so nasty. Then he gets well all over like with green
> slime. So I guess he come to some kinda awful climax ... I come near
wigging with that green stuff all over me, and he stink like
> a old rotten cantaloupe.'
>
> 'Well it's still an easy score.'
>
> The boy signed resignedly; 'Yes, I guess you can get used to anything.
I've got a meet with him again tomorrow.'
>
> The Buyer's habit keeps getting heavier. He needs a recharge every half
hour. Sometimes he cruises the precincts and bribes
> the turnkey to let him in with a cell of junkies. It gets to where no
amount of contact will fix him. At this point he receives a
> summons from the District Supervisor:
>
> 'Bradley, your conduct has given rise to rumors -- and I hope for your
sake they are no more than that -- so unspeakably
> distasteful that ... I mean Caesar's wife ... hrump ... that is, the
Department must be above suspicion ... certainly above such
> suspicions as you have seemingly aroused. You are lowering the entire tone
of the industry. We are prepared to accept your
> immediate resignation.'
>
> The Buyer throws himself on the ground and crawls over to the D.S. 'No,
Boss Man, no ... The Department is my very lifeline.'
>
> He kisses the D.S.'s hand thrusting his fingers into his mouth (the D.S.
must feel his toothless gums) complaining he has lost his
> teeth 'inna thervith.' 'Please Boss Man, I'll wipe your ass, I'll wash out
your dirty condoms, I'll polish your shoes with the oil on
> my nose ...'
>
> 'Really, this is most distasteful! Have you no pride? I must tell you I
feel a distinct revulsion. I mean there is something, well,
> rotten about you, and you smell like a compost heap.' He put a scented
handkerchief in front of his face. 'I must ask you to
> leave this office at once.'
>
> 'I'll do anything, Boss, anything.' His ravaged green face splits in a
horrible smile. 'I'm still young, Boss, and I'm pretty strong
> when I get my blood up.'
>
> The D.S. retches into his handkerchief and points to the door with a limp
hand. The Buyer stands up looking at the D.S.
> dreamily. His body begins to dip like a dowser's wand. He flows forward
...
>
> 'No! No!' screams the D.S.
>
> 'Schlup ... schlup schlup.' An hour later they find the Buyer on the nod
in the D.S.'s chair. The D.S. has disappeared without a
> trace.
>
> The Judge : 'Everything indicates that you have, in some unspeakable
manner uh ... assimilated the District Supervisor.
> Unfortunately there is no proof. I would recommend that you be confined or
more accurately contained in some institution, but I
> know of no place suitable for a man of your caliber. I must reluctantly
order your release.'
>
> 'That one should stand in an aquarium,' says the arresting officer.
>
> The Buyer spreads terror throughout the industry. Junkies and agents
disappear. Like a vampire bat he gives off a narcotic
> effluvium, a dank green mist that anesthizes his victims and renders them
helpless in his enveloping presence. And once he has
> scored he holes up for several days like a gorged boa constrictor. Finally
he is caught in the act of digesting the Narcotics
> Commissioner and destroyed with a flame thrower -- the court of inquiry
ruling that such means were justified in that the Buyer
> had lost his human citizenship and was, in consequence, a creature without
species and a menace to the narcotics industry on all
> levels.
>
>
> JackKerouac25 at aol.com wrote:
>
> > In a message dated Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:07:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino <cstroffo at earthlink.net> writes:
> >
> > > Maybe yeah, but to say it like that sounds snotty, Jack---
> > >
> > > at least quite a few of them, Jack, are better than much of what you
> > > call poetry
> > > in MEXICO CITY BLUES, Jack.....
> > >
> > > For that matter, much of DESOLATION ANGELS is better poetry
> > > than much of what you call poetry in MEXICO CITY....
> > >
> > > Maybe, then, to say "songs, not poems" is actually the opposite of a
> > > put-down....
> > >
> > > love,
> > > Dead Gregory Corso23
> > >
> > > JackKerouac25 at aol.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > <<Was John Lennon a poet or a lyricist?>>
> > > >
> > > > A lyricist who wrote great songs, not poems.
> > > >
> > > > Jeff Newberry
> > > > Dept. of English/Foreign Languages
> > > > University of West Florida
> > > >
> > > > "It's all in the timing, this kind of rhyming."
> > > > --R.S. Gwynn
> > > >
> >
> > Hmm....
> >
> > I think this is the first time I've ever been outright attacked because
my email address.
> >
> > For the record, I think that much of the "poetry" (quotes intentional)
that Kerouac wrote was rather banal, as was much of the fiction that Corso
wrote.  I mean, come on..._Naked Lunch_?
> >
> > Oh...Terry, I'm a New Formalist supporter, and I think that while much
rap is clever with its wordplay, I'm sure that I'd classify it as poetry.
> >
> > Of course, all of this is my opinion; but, hey, cast your stones; I
suppose I deserve it.
> >
> > Jeff Newberry
> > Department of English and Foreign Languages
> > University of West Florida
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From tadrichards  Wed Sep  5 20:37:16 2001
From: tadrichards (theoldmole)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 20:37:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay
References: <F673AmsfGdMNFmWAFsT0000b9bb@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <015b01c1366c$15ff3820$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

There are a fair number of Beats and neo-beats -- A.D. Winans comes to
mind -- who live in pretty severe poverty.

  Tad Richards                       "Well said, old mole."
    The Old Mole                         Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet
    of the MoleNet                          Act I, Scene 5
          http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
----- Original Message -----
From: "Moira Russell" <moira_russell at hotmail.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 11:07 AM
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay


>
> >I didn't say that all (living, should've mentioned that) poets are living
> >in their own personal Baroque period, just that many, if not most, of
them
> >are not toiling in abject poverty.
>
> So are you agreeing with Virginia Woolf that true poets can't survive
> amongst the working classes?  (Her big example was John Keats.)
>
> Moira Russell
> Seattle, WA
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From alphavil  Wed Sep  5 20:38:42 2001
From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 20:38:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dead Poets' Society
References: <29.1a39a5b6.28c7f8bd@aol.com> <3B96B0E7.3A2A9BB5@ix.netcom.com> <004801c13669$4e9c0bc0$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3>
Message-ID: <3B96C592.43F718F6@ix.netcom.com>

Robin Hamilton wrote,

<TheOr does (do?) Gancie and Parcelli assume we're all mouse-stoopid?>

Well, somebody tonight attributed authorship of Naked Lunch to Gregory Corso.
I'd say "mouse-stoopid" hardly covers it. As for sending along the quote from
Burroughs' masterpiece, the same person then stepped into it with both feet by
offering this AD HOMINEM critique; "Aw, c'mon."

Robin Hamilton wrote:

> This is +really+ sad -- Burroughs did this in _The naked lunch_ way those
> years ago.
>
> Don't the chilluns read?
>
> Or does (do?) Gancie and Parcelli assume we're all mouse-stoopid?
>
> Robin
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 12:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Dead Poets' Society
>
> > Selling is more of a habit than using,' Lupita says. Nonusing pushers have
> a contact habit, and that's one you can't kick. Agents
> > get it too. Take Bradley the Buyer. Best narcotics agent in the industry.
> Anyone would make him for junk. (Note: Make in the
> > sense of dig or size up.) I mean he can walk up to a pusher and score
> direct. He is so anonymous, grey and spectral the pusher
> > don't remember him afterwards. So he twists one after the other ...
> >
> > Well the Buyer comes to look more and more like a junky. He can't drink.
> He can't get it up. His teeth fall out. (Like pregnant
> > women lose their teeth feeding the stranger, junkies lose their yellow
> fangs feeding the monkey.) He is all the time sucking on a
> > candy bar. Baby Ruths he digs special. 'It really disgust you to see the
> Buyer sucking on them candy bars so nasty,' a cop says.
> >
> > The Buyer takes on an ominous grey-green color. Fact is his body is making
> its own junk or equivalent. The Buyer has a steady
> > connection. A Man Within you might say. Or so he thinks. 'I'll just set in
> my room,' he says. 'Fuck 'em all. Squares on both
> > sides. I am the only complete man in the industry.'
> >
> > But a yen comes on him like a great black wind through the bones. So the
> Buyer hunts up a young junky and gives him a paper
> > to make it.
> >
> > 'Oh all right,' the boy says. 'So what you want to make?'
> >
> > 'I just want to rub against you and get fixed.'
> >
> > 'Ugh ... Well all right ... But why cancha just get physical like a
> human?'
> >
> > Later the boy is sitting in a Waldorf with two colleagues dunking pound
> cake. 'Most distasteful thing I ever stand still for,' he
> > says. 'Some way he make himself all soft like a blob of jelly and surround
> me so nasty. Then he gets well all over like with green
> > slime. So I guess he come to some kinda awful climax ... I come near
> wigging with that green stuff all over me, and he stink like
> > a old rotten cantaloupe.'
> >
> > 'Well it's still an easy score.'
> >
> > The boy signed resignedly; 'Yes, I guess you can get used to anything.
> I've got a meet with him again tomorrow.'
> >
> > The Buyer's habit keeps getting heavier. He needs a recharge every half
> hour. Sometimes he cruises the precincts and bribes
> > the turnkey to let him in with a cell of junkies. It gets to where no
> amount of contact will fix him. At this point he receives a
> > summons from the District Supervisor:
> >
> > 'Bradley, your conduct has given rise to rumors -- and I hope for your
> sake they are no more than that -- so unspeakably
> > distasteful that ... I mean Caesar's wife ... hrump ... that is, the
> Department must be above suspicion ... certainly above such
> > suspicions as you have seemingly aroused. You are lowering the entire tone
> of the industry. We are prepared to accept your
> > immediate resignation.'
> >
> > The Buyer throws himself on the ground and crawls over to the D.S. 'No,
> Boss Man, no ... The Department is my very lifeline.'
> >
> > He kisses the D.S.'s hand thrusting his fingers into his mouth (the D.S.
> must feel his toothless gums) complaining he has lost his
> > teeth 'inna thervith.' 'Please Boss Man, I'll wipe your ass, I'll wash out
> your dirty condoms, I'll polish your shoes with the oil on
> > my nose ...'
> >
> > 'Really, this is most distasteful! Have you no pride? I must tell you I
> feel a distinct revulsion. I mean there is something, well,
> > rotten about you, and you smell like a compost heap.' He put a scented
> handkerchief in front of his face. 'I must ask you to
> > leave this office at once.'
> >
> > 'I'll do anything, Boss, anything.' His ravaged green face splits in a
> horrible smile. 'I'm still young, Boss, and I'm pretty strong
> > when I get my blood up.'
> >
> > The D.S. retches into his handkerchief and points to the door with a limp
> hand. The Buyer stands up looking at the D.S.
> > dreamily. His body begins to dip like a dowser's wand. He flows forward
> ...
> >
> > 'No! No!' screams the D.S.
> >
> > 'Schlup ... schlup schlup.' An hour later they find the Buyer on the nod
> in the D.S.'s chair. The D.S. has disappeared without a
> > trace.
> >
> > The Judge : 'Everything indicates that you have, in some unspeakable
> manner uh ... assimilated the District Supervisor.
> > Unfortunately there is no proof. I would recommend that you be confined or
> more accurately contained in some institution, but I
> > know of no place suitable for a man of your caliber. I must reluctantly
> order your release.'
> >
> > 'That one should stand in an aquarium,' says the arresting officer.
> >
> > The Buyer spreads terror throughout the industry. Junkies and agents
> disappear. Like a vampire bat he gives off a narcotic
> > effluvium, a dank green mist that anesthizes his victims and renders them
> helpless in his enveloping presence. And once he has
> > scored he holes up for several days like a gorged boa constrictor. Finally
> he is caught in the act of digesting the Narcotics
> > Commissioner and destroyed with a flame thrower -- the court of inquiry
> ruling that such means were justified in that the Buyer
> > had lost his human citizenship and was, in consequence, a creature without
> species and a menace to the narcotics industry on all
> > levels.
> >
> >
> > JackKerouac25 at aol.com wrote:
> >
> > > In a message dated Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:07:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino <cstroffo at earthlink.net> writes:
> > >
> > > > Maybe yeah, but to say it like that sounds snotty, Jack---
> > > >
> > > > at least quite a few of them, Jack, are better than much of what you
> > > > call poetry
> > > > in MEXICO CITY BLUES, Jack.....
> > > >
> > > > For that matter, much of DESOLATION ANGELS is better poetry
> > > > than much of what you call poetry in MEXICO CITY....
> > > >
> > > > Maybe, then, to say "songs, not poems" is actually the opposite of a
> > > > put-down....
> > > >
> > > > love,
> > > > Dead Gregory Corso23
> > > >
> > > > JackKerouac25 at aol.com wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > <<Was John Lennon a poet or a lyricist?>>
> > > > >
> > > > > A lyricist who wrote great songs, not poems.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jeff Newberry
> > > > > Dept. of English/Foreign Languages
> > > > > University of West Florida
> > > > >
> > > > > "It's all in the timing, this kind of rhyming."
> > > > > --R.S. Gwynn
> > > > >
> > >
> > > Hmm....
> > >
> > > I think this is the first time I've ever been outright attacked because
> my email address.
> > >
> > > For the record, I think that much of the "poetry" (quotes intentional)
> that Kerouac wrote was rather banal, as was much of the fiction that Corso
> wrote.  I mean, come on..._Naked Lunch_?
> > >
> > > Oh...Terry, I'm a New Formalist supporter, and I think that while much
> rap is clever with its wordplay, I'm sure that I'd classify it as poetry.
> > >
> > > Of course, all of this is my opinion; but, hey, cast your stones; I
> suppose I deserve it.
> > >
> > > Jeff Newberry
> > > Department of English and Foreign Languages
> > > University of West Florida
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From robin.hamilton2  Wed Sep  5 20:41:23 2001
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 01:41:23 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dead Poets' Society
References: <29.1a39a5b6.28c7f8bd@aol.com> <3B96B0E7.3A2A9BB5@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <008601c1366d$2fc10a80$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3>

... and, frankly, I don't give a  flying fuck at the moon how you cut it.

... bone ignorant or playing mind-games.

Either is Walter.  GIGO still runs.

For all of me ...

Robin

----- Original Message -----
From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 12:10 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Dead Poets' Society


> Selling is more of a habit than using,' Lupita says. Nonusing pushers have
a contact habit, and that's one you can't kick. Agents
> get it too. Take Bradley the Buyer. Best narcotics agent in the industry.
Anyone would make him for junk. (Note: Make in the
> sense of dig or size up.) I mean he can walk up to a pusher and score
direct. He is so anonymous, grey and spectral the pusher
> don't remember him afterwards. So he twists one after the other ...
>
> Well the Buyer comes to look more and more like a junky. He can't drink.
He can't get it up. His teeth fall out. (Like pregnant
> women lose their teeth feeding the stranger, junkies lose their yellow
fangs feeding the monkey.) He is all the time sucking on a
> candy bar. Baby Ruths he digs special. 'It really disgust you to see the
Buyer sucking on them candy bars so nasty,' a cop says.
>
> The Buyer takes on an ominous grey-green color. Fact is his body is making
its own junk or equivalent. The Buyer has a steady
> connection. A Man Within you might say. Or so he thinks. 'I'll just set in
my room,' he says. 'Fuck 'em all. Squares on both
> sides. I am the only complete man in the industry.'
>
> But a yen comes on him like a great black wind through the bones. So the
Buyer hunts up a young junky and gives him a paper
> to make it.
>
> 'Oh all right,' the boy says. 'So what you want to make?'
>
> 'I just want to rub against you and get fixed.'
>
> 'Ugh ... Well all right ... But why cancha just get physical like a
human?'
>
> Later the boy is sitting in a Waldorf with two colleagues dunking pound
cake. 'Most distasteful thing I ever stand still for,' he
> says. 'Some way he make himself all soft like a blob of jelly and surround
me so nasty. Then he gets well all over like with green
> slime. So I guess he come to some kinda awful climax ... I come near
wigging with that green stuff all over me, and he stink like
> a old rotten cantaloupe.'
>
> 'Well it's still an easy score.'
>
> The boy signed resignedly; 'Yes, I guess you can get used to anything.
I've got a meet with him again tomorrow.'
>
> The Buyer's habit keeps getting heavier. He needs a recharge every half
hour. Sometimes he cruises the precincts and bribes
> the turnkey to let him in with a cell of junkies. It gets to where no
amount of contact will fix him. At this point he receives a
> summons from the District Supervisor:
>
> 'Bradley, your conduct has given rise to rumors -- and I hope for your
sake they are no more than that -- so unspeakably
> distasteful that ... I mean Caesar's wife ... hrump ... that is, the
Department must be above suspicion ... certainly above such
> suspicions as you have seemingly aroused. You are lowering the entire tone
of the industry. We are prepared to accept your
> immediate resignation.'
>
> The Buyer throws himself on the ground and crawls over to the D.S. 'No,
Boss Man, no ... The Department is my very lifeline.'
>
> He kisses the D.S.'s hand thrusting his fingers into his mouth (the D.S.
must feel his toothless gums) complaining he has lost his
> teeth 'inna thervith.' 'Please Boss Man, I'll wipe your ass, I'll wash out
your dirty condoms, I'll polish your shoes with the oil on
> my nose ...'
>
> 'Really, this is most distasteful! Have you no pride? I must tell you I
feel a distinct revulsion. I mean there is something, well,
> rotten about you, and you smell like a compost heap.' He put a scented
handkerchief in front of his face. 'I must ask you to
> leave this office at once.'
>
> 'I'll do anything, Boss, anything.' His ravaged green face splits in a
horrible smile. 'I'm still young, Boss, and I'm pretty strong
> when I get my blood up.'
>
> The D.S. retches into his handkerchief and points to the door with a limp
hand. The Buyer stands up looking at the D.S.
> dreamily. His body begins to dip like a dowser's wand. He flows forward
...
>
> 'No! No!' screams the D.S.
>
> 'Schlup ... schlup schlup.' An hour later they find the Buyer on the nod
in the D.S.'s chair. The D.S. has disappeared without a
> trace.
>
> The Judge : 'Everything indicates that you have, in some unspeakable
manner uh ... assimilated the District Supervisor.
> Unfortunately there is no proof. I would recommend that you be confined or
more accurately contained in some institution, but I
> know of no place suitable for a man of your caliber. I must reluctantly
order your release.'
>
> 'That one should stand in an aquarium,' says the arresting officer.
>
> The Buyer spreads terror throughout the industry. Junkies and agents
disappear. Like a vampire bat he gives off a narcotic
> effluvium, a dank green mist that anesthizes his victims and renders them
helpless in his enveloping presence. And once he has
> scored he holes up for several days like a gorged boa constrictor. Finally
he is caught in the act of digesting the Narcotics
> Commissioner and destroyed with a flame thrower -- the court of inquiry
ruling that such means were justified in that the Buyer
> had lost his human citizenship and was, in consequence, a creature without
species and a menace to the narcotics industry on all
> levels.
>
>
> JackKerouac25 at aol.com wrote:
>
> > In a message dated Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:07:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino <cstroffo at earthlink.net> writes:
> >
> > > Maybe yeah, but to say it like that sounds snotty, Jack---
> > >
> > > at least quite a few of them, Jack, are better than much of what you
> > > call poetry
> > > in MEXICO CITY BLUES, Jack.....
> > >
> > > For that matter, much of DESOLATION ANGELS is better poetry
> > > than much of what you call poetry in MEXICO CITY....
> > >
> > > Maybe, then, to say "songs, not poems" is actually the opposite of a
> > > put-down....
> > >
> > > love,
> > > Dead Gregory Corso23
> > >
> > > JackKerouac25 at aol.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > <<Was John Lennon a poet or a lyricist?>>
> > > >
> > > > A lyricist who wrote great songs, not poems.
> > > >
> > > > Jeff Newberry
> > > > Dept. of English/Foreign Languages
> > > > University of West Florida
> > > >
> > > > "It's all in the timing, this kind of rhyming."
> > > > --R.S. Gwynn
> > > >
> >
> > Hmm....
> >
> > I think this is the first time I've ever been outright attacked because
my email address.
> >
> > For the record, I think that much of the "poetry" (quotes intentional)
that Kerouac wrote was rather banal, as was much of the fiction that Corso
wrote.  I mean, come on..._Naked Lunch_?
> >
> > Oh...Terry, I'm a New Formalist supporter, and I think that while much
rap is clever with its wordplay, I'm sure that I'd classify it as poetry.
> >
> > Of course, all of this is my opinion; but, hey, cast your stones; I
suppose I deserve it.
> >
> > Jeff Newberry
> > Department of English and Foreign Languages
> > University of West Florida
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From grahamd  Wed Sep  5 21:01:15 2001
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 20:01:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Politicopoetics
Message-ID: <200109060102.f8612iC94657@mx5.mx.voyager.net>

I'm feeling just cranky enough to say I'm delighted to live in a country
where poets are not routinely persecuted for *being* poets.  There would
seem to be more than a tinge of romantic silliness in wishing things were
otherwise.   

Which isn't the same thing as saying poets should be apolitical.  The phrase
"poets should" is one I'm a little leery of, anyway.

And, as a number of folks have noted, plenty of contemporary poets write
from an "engaged" perspective, and plenty are poor, some by choice.  Choice
is a nice thing, all in all.

Seems to me that we have all sorts of different kinds of poets who might be
termed political.  Carolyn Forche or Allen Ginsberg are not the only models.
 There is someone like Wendell Berry, for example, who isn't often thought
of in these terms, but what else would you call him?   And fairly common are
poets who are politically engaged in various ways outside their writing.  

I like what Alicia Ostriker says in a recent essay:  "To the famous
declaration of Theodore Adorno that there can be no poetry after Auschwitz,
a possible response is that there *must* be poetry after Auschwitz.  Not to
go on with poetry would be like not going on with life:  a surrender to the
powers of human destruction."   

I take that sentiment to encompass all poetry, not just poems about nuclear
waste, migrant workers, environmental despoilation, ethnic cleansing, etc.
_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________




From robin.hamilton2  Wed Sep  5 21:06:32 2001
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 02:06:32 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dead Poets' Society
References: <29.1a39a5b6.28c7f8bd@aol.com> <3B96B0E7.3A2A9BB5@ix.netcom.com> <004801c13669$4e9c0bc0$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3> <3B96C592.43F718F6@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <009e01c13670$8797e3c0$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3>

> Well, somebody tonight attributed authorship of Naked Lunch to Gregory
Corso.

So far off?  A Beat is a beat is a beat ...

> I'd say "mouse-stoopid" hardly covers it. As for sending along the quote
from
> Burroughs' masterpiece,

K -- I missed it +was+ NL -- don't have a copy to hand to check.  Benway
(creator and manipulator of symbol systems) would have done better, I know.

> the same person then stepped into it with both feet by
> offering this AD HOMINEM critique; "Aw, c'mon."

Beavis and Butthead spring to mind.

Uh ...

Robo

>
> Robin Hamilton wrote:
>
> > This is +really+ sad -- Burroughs did this in _The naked lunch_ way
those
> > years ago.
> >
> > Don't the chilluns read?
> >
> > Or does (do?) Gancie and Parcelli assume we're all mouse-stoopid?
> >
> > Robin
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>
> > To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 12:10 AM
> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Dead Poets' Society
> >
> > > Selling is more of a habit than using,' Lupita says. Nonusing pushers
have
> > a contact habit, and that's one you can't kick. Agents
> > > get it too. Take Bradley the Buyer. Best narcotics agent in the
industry.
> > Anyone would make him for junk. (Note: Make in the
> > > sense of dig or size up.) I mean he can walk up to a pusher and score
> > direct. He is so anonymous, grey and spectral the pusher
> > > don't remember him afterwards. So he twists one after the other ...
> > >
> > > Well the Buyer comes to look more and more like a junky. He can't
drink.
> > He can't get it up. His teeth fall out. (Like pregnant
> > > women lose their teeth feeding the stranger, junkies lose their yellow
> > fangs feeding the monkey.) He is all the time sucking on a
> > > candy bar. Baby Ruths he digs special. 'It really disgust you to see
the
> > Buyer sucking on them candy bars so nasty,' a cop says.
> > >
> > > The Buyer takes on an ominous grey-green color. Fact is his body is
making
> > its own junk or equivalent. The Buyer has a steady
> > > connection. A Man Within you might say. Or so he thinks. 'I'll just
set in
> > my room,' he says. 'Fuck 'em all. Squares on both
> > > sides. I am the only complete man in the industry.'
> > >
> > > But a yen comes on him like a great black wind through the bones. So
the
> > Buyer hunts up a young junky and gives him a paper
> > > to make it.
> > >
> > > 'Oh all right,' the boy says. 'So what you want to make?'
> > >
> > > 'I just want to rub against you and get fixed.'
> > >
> > > 'Ugh ... Well all right ... But why cancha just get physical like a
> > human?'
> > >
> > > Later the boy is sitting in a Waldorf with two colleagues dunking
pound
> > cake. 'Most distasteful thing I ever stand still for,' he
> > > says. 'Some way he make himself all soft like a blob of jelly and
surround
> > me so nasty. Then he gets well all over like with green
> > > slime. So I guess he come to some kinda awful climax ... I come near
> > wigging with that green stuff all over me, and he stink like
> > > a old rotten cantaloupe.'
> > >
> > > 'Well it's still an easy score.'
> > >
> > > The boy signed resignedly; 'Yes, I guess you can get used to anything.
> > I've got a meet with him again tomorrow.'
> > >
> > > The Buyer's habit keeps getting heavier. He needs a recharge every
half
> > hour. Sometimes he cruises the precincts and bribes
> > > the turnkey to let him in with a cell of junkies. It gets to where no
> > amount of contact will fix him. At this point he receives a
> > > summons from the District Supervisor:
> > >
> > > 'Bradley, your conduct has given rise to rumors -- and I hope for your
> > sake they are no more than that -- so unspeakably
> > > distasteful that ... I mean Caesar's wife ... hrump ... that is, the
> > Department must be above suspicion ... certainly above such
> > > suspicions as you have seemingly aroused. You are lowering the entire
tone
> > of the industry. We are prepared to accept your
> > > immediate resignation.'
> > >
> > > The Buyer throws himself on the ground and crawls over to the D.S.
'No,
> > Boss Man, no ... The Department is my very lifeline.'
> > >
> > > He kisses the D.S.'s hand thrusting his fingers into his mouth (the
D.S.
> > must feel his toothless gums) complaining he has lost his
> > > teeth 'inna thervith.' 'Please Boss Man, I'll wipe your ass, I'll wash
out
> > your dirty condoms, I'll polish your shoes with the oil on
> > > my nose ...'
> > >
> > > 'Really, this is most distasteful! Have you no pride? I must tell you
I
> > feel a distinct revulsion. I mean there is something, well,
> > > rotten about you, and you smell like a compost heap.' He put a scented
> > handkerchief in front of his face. 'I must ask you to
> > > leave this office at once.'
> > >
> > > 'I'll do anything, Boss, anything.' His ravaged green face splits in a
> > horrible smile. 'I'm still young, Boss, and I'm pretty strong
> > > when I get my blood up.'
> > >
> > > The D.S. retches into his handkerchief and points to the door with a
limp
> > hand. The Buyer stands up looking at the D.S.
> > > dreamily. His body begins to dip like a dowser's wand. He flows
forward
> > ...
> > >
> > > 'No! No!' screams the D.S.
> > >
> > > 'Schlup ... schlup schlup.' An hour later they find the Buyer on the
nod
> > in the D.S.'s chair. The D.S. has disappeared without a
> > > trace.
> > >
> > > The Judge : 'Everything indicates that you have, in some unspeakable
> > manner uh ... assimilated the District Supervisor.
> > > Unfortunately there is no proof. I would recommend that you be
confined or
> > more accurately contained in some institution, but I
> > > know of no place suitable for a man of your caliber. I must
reluctantly
> > order your release.'
> > >
> > > 'That one should stand in an aquarium,' says the arresting officer.
> > >
> > > The Buyer spreads terror throughout the industry. Junkies and agents
> > disappear. Like a vampire bat he gives off a narcotic
> > > effluvium, a dank green mist that anesthizes his victims and renders
them
> > helpless in his enveloping presence. And once he has
> > > scored he holes up for several days like a gorged boa constrictor.
Finally
> > he is caught in the act of digesting the Narcotics
> > > Commissioner and destroyed with a flame thrower -- the court of
inquiry
> > ruling that such means were justified in that the Buyer
> > > had lost his human citizenship and was, in consequence, a creature
without
> > species and a menace to the narcotics industry on all
> > > levels.
> > >
> > >
> > > JackKerouac25 at aol.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > In a message dated Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:07:53 PM Eastern Daylight
Time,
> > Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino <cstroffo at earthlink.net> writes:
> > > >
> > > > > Maybe yeah, but to say it like that sounds snotty, Jack---
> > > > >
> > > > > at least quite a few of them, Jack, are better than much of what
you
> > > > > call poetry
> > > > > in MEXICO CITY BLUES, Jack.....
> > > > >
> > > > > For that matter, much of DESOLATION ANGELS is better poetry
> > > > > than much of what you call poetry in MEXICO CITY....
> > > > >
> > > > > Maybe, then, to say "songs, not poems" is actually the opposite of
a
> > > > > put-down....
> > > > >
> > > > > love,
> > > > > Dead Gregory Corso23
> > > > >
> > > > > JackKerouac25 at aol.com wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > <<Was John Lennon a poet or a lyricist?>>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A lyricist who wrote great songs, not poems.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jeff Newberry
> > > > > > Dept. of English/Foreign Languages
> > > > > > University of West Florida
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "It's all in the timing, this kind of rhyming."
> > > > > > --R.S. Gwynn
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hmm....
> > > >
> > > > I think this is the first time I've ever been outright attacked
because
> > my email address.
> > > >
> > > > For the record, I think that much of the "poetry" (quotes
intentional)
> > that Kerouac wrote was rather banal, as was much of the fiction that
Corso
> > wrote.  I mean, come on..._Naked Lunch_?
> > > >
> > > > Oh...Terry, I'm a New Formalist supporter, and I think that while
much
> > rap is clever with its wordplay, I'm sure that I'd classify it as
poetry.
> > > >
> > > > Of course, all of this is my opinion; but, hey, cast your stones; I
> > suppose I deserve it.
> > > >
> > > > Jeff Newberry
> > > > Department of English and Foreign Languages
> > > > University of West Florida
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From grahamd  Wed Sep  5 21:16:46 2001
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 20:16:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Song lyrics as poetry
Message-ID: <200109060116.f861GDY67354@mx9.mx.voyager.net>

Why is this question  so often posed about poetry versus rock lyrics?  What
about country?  Blues?  Folk?  etc.  

Good luck arguing, on any basis of quality alone, that they aren't all forms
of poetry!  For then you'd have to stipulate that all the stuff appearing in
the New Yorker is good, while John Prine's lyrics are less so, which is a
palpably odd position, seems to me.  

Not to knock Cole Porter at all, but to my ears "Paradise" by John Prine is
every bit as *good* as "Love for Sale," in its own way.  And I'd sooner
listen to either of those than, say, any poem by Maya Angelou.  

In other words, no fair always comparing Ira Gershwin to, say, George
Harrison.  That's a little like comparing Emily Dickinson to Constance
Fenimore Woolson.
_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________




From alphavil  Wed Sep  5 21:20:03 2001
From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 21:20:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Political Poet Finally Recognized For his Achievement
References: <29.1a39a5b6.28c7f8bd@aol.com> <3B96B0E7.3A2A9BB5@ix.netcom.com> <004801c13669$4e9c0bc0$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3>
Message-ID: <3B96CF42.E98F4D46@ix.netcom.com>

I am happy to announce that my dear friend and fellow poet, Yaso Adiodi, has
just been awarded the 2001 Rev. Sun Myung Moon Award for Literary Excellence for
his monumental autobiography "YASO ADIODI: XENOPHOBE WITHOUT A COUNTRY". The
award will be presented by the former Phoenix Program Assassin, and former
President of the World Anti-Communist League, and former Iran-Contra Figure,
Major General John Singlaub, in the Dan Mitrioni ballroom in luncheonette 66XXB
Hall 5 in the Vladimiro Montesinos building on the lovely campus of the CIA in
Langley, Virginia. Guests will include former CIA directors Richard Helms,
George Bush Sr. and the late Bill Colby. Yaso's book is currently being
published by the Iron Cross Press in conjunction with the Republican National
Committee. Yaso, who has published 16 books of poetry, currently divides his
teaching duties between SUNY Buffalo and Fort Detrick.






From TerryP17  Wed Sep  5 21:32:02 2001
From: TerryP17 (TerryP17 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 21:32:02 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Millay
Message-ID: <b9.133332e8.28c82c12@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/5/01 6:01:53 PM, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
writes:

>Interesting essay-review of two Millay biographies in this week's New Yorker.

Agreed Sam, read of these with great interest. Visited with some New York 
friends this week who already had one of the books, which I now covet.

Millay was always one of my favorites, even in high school. By the time I'd 
reached college, the New Critics had pretty much assigned her to the ash 
heap. Like African-American poet Countee Cullen, Millay wrote in pretty 
traditional meters and rhyme and both poets were wildly popular in their day. 
Now no one knows their names, or nearly no one. They seem to be casualties of 
the twin tsunamis of Modernism and Postmodernism. At their worst, they do 
hearken back to the bad old days of Victorian excess. At their best, they're 
a lot better than most of the meaningless babble I read  today. Probably time 
to take both out of mothballs and reasses. But  I won't hold my breath.

The New Yorker piece, while extraordinarily comprehensive and interesting, in 
the end, I felt, was casually dismissive of Millay. It seems that she had 
committed the mortal sin of being really popular, and now must suffer the 
consequences. 

I've always found it interesting that my feminist friends have never had a 
good word for Edna and her travails. Wonder why.

--Terry Ponick



From gmcvay  Wed Sep  5 21:51:32 2001
From: gmcvay (Gwyn McVay)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 21:51:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dead Poets' Society
References: <29.1a39a5b6.28c7f8bd@aol.com> <3B96B0E7.3A2A9BB5@ix.netcom.com> <004801c13669$4e9c0bc0$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3> <3B96C592.43F718F6@ix.netcom.com> <009e01c13670$8797e3c0$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3>
Message-ID: <3B96D68F.61E47B90@patriot.net>

>>>So far off?  A Beat is a beat is a beat ...<<<

Jayzus, Mary, an' Joseph, people can't even paraphrase Stein right. The
quote is "Rose is a rose is a rose is a rose," so what you clearly meant
to state is "Beat is a beat is a beat is a beat," which is much closer
to correct than what you actually typed.

Again, invert the statement: A Mainstream is a mainstream is a
mainstream. Yusef Komunyakaa is really the same person as Jorie Graham:
after all, neither uses the name he or she was born with. Isn't she a
black Vietnam vet? Isn't he the one who digs tulips in the mud wearing
stilettos and velvet pants?*

Gwyn

*see New Yorker profile on Graham



From alphavil  Wed Sep  5 21:53:38 2001
From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 21:53:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Millay
References: <b9.133332e8.28c82c12@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3B96D722.153BEC38@ix.netcom.com>

If Millay is little known today its not for lack of capital trying. Harper Collins
reissued her Collected Poems in 1990, and Harper Collins doesn't do small print
runs. And then that same edition of Millay's Collected was further offered in a
Book Club edition and is in print in paperback. The sentiments of the general
public attach more readily to Millay than virtually any modernist or postmodernist
I can think of. CP

TerryP17 at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 9/5/01 6:01:53 PM, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> writes:
>
> >Interesting essay-review of two Millay biographies in this week's New Yorker.
>
> Agreed Sam, read of these with great interest. Visited with some New York
> friends this week who already had one of the books, which I now covet.
>
> Millay was always one of my favorites, even in high school. By the time I'd
> reached college, the New Critics had pretty much assigned her to the ash
> heap. Like African-American poet Countee Cullen, Millay wrote in pretty
> traditional meters and rhyme and both poets were wildly popular in their day.
> Now no one knows their names, or nearly no one. They seem to be casualties of
> the twin tsunamis of Modernism and Postmodernism. At their worst, they do
> hearken back to the bad old days of Victorian excess. At their best, they're
> a lot better than most of the meaningless babble I read  today. Probably time
> to take both out of mothballs and reasses. But  I won't hold my breath.
>
> The New Yorker piece, while extraordinarily comprehensive and interesting, in
> the end, I felt, was casually dismissive of Millay. It seems that she had
> committed the mortal sin of being really popular, and now must suffer the
> consequences.
>
> I've always found it interesting that my feminist friends have never had a
> good word for Edna and her travails. Wonder why.
>
> --Terry Ponick
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From JackKerouac25  Wed Sep  5 22:36:25 2001
From: JackKerouac25 (JackKerouac25 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 22:36:25 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dead Poets' Society
Message-ID: <104.8b8b9c4.28c83b29@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/5/01 5:42:13 PM Central Daylight Time, 
gmcvay at patriot.net writes:

> Corso's authorship of /Naked Lunch/ is going to surprise the heck out of
>  the William S. Burroughs estate. Good scholarly coup, Ti-Jean.

Holy Moly.

I'm an idiot.

Hang on; I have to remove the foot from my mouth.

I don't even know what to say.

Will a "sorry" do?

Jeffrey L. Newberry
Adjunct Instructor
Department of English and Foreign Languages
University of West Florida
11000 University Parkway
Pensacola, FL  32514
850.474.2923
850.473.7330



From robin.hamilton2  Wed Sep  5 22:29:57 2001
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 03:29:57 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dead Poets' Society
References: <29.1a39a5b6.28c7f8bd@aol.com> <3B96B0E7.3A2A9BB5@ix.netcom.com> <004801c13669$4e9c0bc0$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3> <3B96C592.43F718F6@ix.netcom.com> <009e01c13670$8797e3c0$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3> <3B96D68F.61E47B90@patriot.net>
Message-ID: <00d601c1367c$ff677760$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3>

> Jayzus, Mary, an' Joseph, people can't even paraphrase Stein right. The
> quote is "Rose is a rose is a rose is a rose," so what you clearly meant
> to state is "Beat is a beat is a beat is a beat," which is much closer
> to correct than what you actually typed.

No.  Really.  I was being careful (for once) with my indefinites.  *+A+ rose
is ..."

Let's hear it for Alice B.

Or have I transcribed this wrong?

Shit, this mess is a mush -- to recap, this came out of Burroughs's Naked
Lunch.

I won't even +mention+ Nova Express

Or Kerouak's "I am a male chauvanist pig" (erry)  _On the Rod_

-- one time, some time, never again old chug --

Corso scores as a beat with Fehrlignghetti. (sp?)

Uh?//

Robin











or have /#i transc

    '





>
> Again, invert the statement: A Mainstream is a mainstream is a
> mainstream. Yusef Komunyakaa is really the same person as Jorie Graham:
> after all, neither uses the name he or she was born with. Isn't she a
> black Vietnam vet? Isn't he the one who digs tulips in the mud wearing
> stilettos and velvet pants?*
>
> Gwyn
>
> *see New Yorker profile on Graham
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From robin.hamilton2  Wed Sep  5 22:54:47 2001
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 03:54:47 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dead Poets' Society
References: <104.8b8b9c4.28c83b29@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00f401c1367f$5f26a840$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3>

If Corso wrote NL, I'm  hamster's breakfast.

Where is this nonsense coming from?

Robin

----- Original Message -----
From: <JackKerouac25 at aol.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2001 3:36 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Dead Poets' Society


> In a message dated 9/5/01 5:42:13 PM Central Daylight Time,
> gmcvay at patriot.net writes:
>
> > Corso's authorship of /Naked Lunch/ is going to surprise the heck out of
> >  the William S. Burroughs estate. Good scholarly coup, Ti-Jean.
>
> Holy Moly.
>
> I'm an idiot.
>
> Hang on; I have to remove the foot from my mouth.
>
> I don't even know what to say.
>
> Will a "sorry" do?
>
> Jeffrey L. Newberry
> Adjunct Instructor
> Department of English and Foreign Languages
> University of West Florida
> 11000 University Parkway
> Pensacola, FL  32514
> 850.474.2923
> 850.473.7330
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From Rsgwynn1  Wed Sep  5 22:58:32 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 22:58:32 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dead Poets' Society, Lennon's Tomb, and Rappers
Message-ID: <114.44a1dcc.28c84058@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/5/2001 4:59:44 PM Central Daylight Time, 
moira_russell at hotmail.com writes:


> Balaban sounds a bit like Lowell 
> in his US confinement.  

Balaban was actually in Vietnam, I believe.  He wrote a wonderful poem about 
a guard at a bridge.  Someone can probably provide the title.
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From klvarnes  Wed Sep  5 22:58:43 2001
From: klvarnes (Kathrine Varnes)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 21:58:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:lyrics and poems
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0109051826160.30120-100000@adams.patriot.net>
Message-ID: <B7BC5092.4372%klvarnes@home.com>

To say that "good" lyrics are poems is to insult songwriting as a genre.
Lyrics have their own tradition and conversation, although there's crossover
influence and shared history, sure.

Just for fun, I will confess that in a bar, mid-eighties, with my
then-partner, I sang one of many original numbers, chorus of which went:

Don't call me on the phone
Or sit watchin for my car.
I don't want you near my home
Or knowing where I are.

(and partner sings back-up while guitar chords slide up neck: are, are,
are!)

This was an anti-stalker song and favorite in the clubs (if you can imagine,
often requested, --huh? Audience singing along) but it's agonizingly bad in
print. You'll have to take my word on its brilliance when performed. Lyrics
can flirt with clich? and get a big kiss instead of slap. Not so much poems.

Kathrine




From grahamd  Wed Sep  5 23:11:53 2001
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 22:11:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Balaban
Message-ID: <200109060311.f863BLY63731@mx9.mx.voyager.net>

Yes, Balaban was in Vietnam.  Read all about it in his memoir, *Remembering
Heaven's Face: A Moral Witness in Vietnam* (1991).

And run, don't walk, to obtain his new & selected poems, *Locusts at the
Edge of Summer* (Copper Canyon 1997), which I think is terrific.  Plenty of
Vietnam poems, including "The Guard at the Binh Thuy Bridge."

David Graham
_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________

----------
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Dead Poets' Society, Lennon's Tomb, and
Rappers
Date: Wed, Sep 5, 2001, 9:58 PM


In a message dated 9/5/2001 4:59:44 PM Central Daylight Time, 
moira_russell at hotmail.com writes: 


Balaban sounds a bit like Lowell 
in his US confinement.  


Balaban was actually in Vietnam, I believe.  He wrote a wonderful poem about

a guard at a bridge.  Someone can probably provide the title. 
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From Rsgwynn1  Wed Sep  5 23:14:35 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 23:14:35 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:lyrics and poems
Message-ID: <166.66d2e9.28c8441b@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/5/2001 10:00:18 PM Central Daylight Time, 
klvarnes at home.com writes:


> Lyrics
> can flirt with clich? and get a big kiss instead of slap. Not so much poems.
> 
> Kathrine
> 
> 

I agree with Kathrine.  They're related genres but not the same.  Music hath 
charms, etc., and the words attached to music ride on its coattails.  
Sculpture and painting are both visual arts, right?  But no one would apply 
the same aesthetic criteria to them.  Songwriting can get away with cliche 
and surface meaning because it's meant to be heard.  Poetry is meant to be 
heard and read as well.  Sometimes really good songs make us want to read the 
lyrics from the impossibly tiny cd notes but more often than not we forego 
that dubious pleasure just to sit back and read.  But I don't think most 
folks would be completely satisfied with a poetry library consisting solely 
of audiobooks.  We can read poems with pleasure silently without immediately 
demanding an audio version (or one backed with 100 strings).  I have books of 
song lyrics that I enjoy immensely, but I always read those lyrics with the 
tune in the back of my head.  Invariably, if I come across lyrics that I 
don't know the tune to I tune out.

Lennon/McCartney, Berlin, Porter, et al. were great songwriters.  Why not 
just leave it at that?
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From robin.hamilton2  Wed Sep  5 23:31:06 2001
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 04:31:06 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dead Poets' Society
References: <104.8b8b9c4.28c83b29@aol.com>
Message-ID: <013b01c13684$818effe0$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3>

> >  the William S. Burroughs estate. Good scholarly coup, Ti-Jean.

As Ti-Jean in cyberpunk?   As in William Gibson?

Get A Life.

D2

(Dear god, if we're rolling over half-baked fifties SF, howsabout "Me
Tarzan, You Jane", from The Other Burroughs.

R2)

>
> Holy Moly.
>
> I'm an idiot.
>
> Hang on; I have to remove the foot from my mouth.
>
> I don't even know what to say.
>
> Will a "sorry" do?
>
> Jeffrey L. Newberry
> Adjunct Instructor
> Department of English and Foreign Languages
> University of West Florida
> 11000 University Parkway
> Pensacola, FL  32514
> 850.474.2923
> 850.473.7330
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From gmcvay  Thu Sep  6 00:05:09 2001
From: gmcvay (Gwyn McVay)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 00:05:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dead Poets' Society
References: <104.8b8b9c4.28c83b29@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3B96F5CD.C4D63DDB@patriot.net>

Jeffrey,

I apologize; I didn't mean it as a bad kind of tweak. I have certainly
made myownself silly in public. I once mentioned, in the presence of a
very amused Carolyn Forche, "Walter Carlos Williams"--apparently a cross
between old Doc Bill and the transsexual Moog-synthesizer wiz. If you
mail me off-list I will tell the "Sheep Story" about my complete
OH-GODDD self-embarrassment in front of a class I was teaching. </me is
still blushing>

All best, Gwyn



From gmcvay  Thu Sep  6 00:24:27 2001
From: gmcvay (Gwyn McVay)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 00:24:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dead Poets' Society
References: <104.8b8b9c4.28c83b29@aol.com> <013b01c13684$818effe0$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3>
Message-ID: <3B96FA50.12B90F76@patriot.net>

As Ti-Jean in cyberpunk?   As in William Gibson?

Get A Life.<<<

Hmm, an indecipherable question phrased as two questions, and a bumper
sticker. </me explains> A quick skim over a Kerouac bio informs one that
Ti-Jean, from "p'tit Jean," was Jean Louis Kerouac's pet name from his
mother. I was lightly twitting the gentleman who uses "Jack Kerouac" as
a nom de net.

The "Beat"-identified poets actually had rather different
sensibilities--compare Helen Adam to Lew Welch, for example--and had
lessons, the Good Kind and the Bad Kind. They're there to take or leave.

Signed, Me Personally Took Some



From wasanthony  Thu Sep  6 10:02:14 2001
From: wasanthony (jcervantes)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 07:02:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] us Americans
Message-ID: <20010906140214.72762.qmail@web12105.mail.yahoo.com>

There's a poem on today's Poetry Daily,  "On Translating Poems by
American Authors," by Julia Hartwig, that bears on recent discussions!

- Jim

=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
"Ripples" @ <http://www.poetserv.net>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger
http://im.yahoo.com



From JforJames  Thu Sep  6 10:07:50 2001
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:07:50 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Politicopoetics
Message-ID: <134.13eca1c.28c8dd36@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/5/01 9:02:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu writes:
> plenty of contemporary poets write
>  from an "engaged" perspective, 

This offers me the opportunity to mention Curbstone Press
in Willimantic CT (Connecticut being about the richest
state in the nation per capita...tho you'd not know it 
driving thru...quickly...the North End of Hartford).
Curbstone has built its list around socially & politcally
engaged poetry & fiction. Fighting the good fight.
(Recently they published "Blues For Unemployed Secret
Police" by former Vietnam vet Doug Anderson.)
www.curbstone.org

An aside: 
Speaking as a member (not as a list manager) my wish
for the list is that people would "gotcha" one another 
in a friendlier fashion...and not make fun of email addresses 
and the like. I was reminded recently that the etymology of 
the word "tease" came from sticking someone with 
the point of a sword. Worth bearing in mind, I think.
Finnegan



From robin.hamilton2  Thu Sep  6 10:53:11 2001
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 15:53:11 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dead Poets' Society
References: <104.8b8b9c4.28c83b29@aol.com> <013b01c13684$818effe0$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3> <3B96FA50.12B90F76@patriot.net>
Message-ID: <01b701c136e4$9301d9e0$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3>

> As Ti-Jean in cyberpunk?   As in William Gibson?
>
> Get A Life.<<<
>
> Hmm, an indecipherable question phrased as two questions, and a bumper
> sticker.

In the cold light of dawn, the above probably +is+ a little obscure.  The SF
cyberpunk novelist William Gibson has an (I think) AI named Ti-Jean in one
of his novels -- _Neuromancer_?  Whether he got it from Kerouac or
independently coined it from the French, who knows?

Robin

 </me explains> A quick skim over a Kerouac bio informs one that
> Ti-Jean, from "p'tit Jean," was Jean Louis Kerouac's pet name from his
> mother. I was lightly twitting the gentleman who uses "Jack Kerouac" as
> a nom de net.
>
> The "Beat"-identified poets actually had rather different
> sensibilities--compare Helen Adam to Lew Welch, for example--and had
> lessons, the Good Kind and the Bad Kind. They're there to take or leave.
>
> Signed, Me Personally Took Some
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From moira_russell  Thu Sep  6 11:28:43 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 07:28:43 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Millay Article
Message-ID: <F304xQLg0L4w4oNJMtF0000d83c@hotmail.com>

There is a Millay article-review in Salon.com which I liked better than any 
I have seen so far, except for its giddy end describing the endless charms 
of Millay's husband.  But there are parts of it that are quite good, and 
unlike other reviews, it questions the two biographers' attitudes towards 
Millay's poetry:

"Her poetry was, indeed, sentimental and obvious if you compare it to 
cerebral, allusive, blank verse about the despair of hollow men or austere 
images attesting to the importance of red wheelbarrows -- but then so is 
Keats'. And the body of her work is uneven, but then so is Byron's. The days 
when poetry needed to prove a strenuous unfamiliarity with parlors are long 
gone, and there's something craven about any blanket repudiation of Millay's 
work, as if the repudiators are afraid that T.S. Eliot or some equally 
fastidious literary authority might come along and rap then on their 
knuckles with a ruler. There are fine poems to be found in these biographies 
(and in a new volume of Millay's poems just out from Modern Library -- 
though this unfortunately lacks her late, more complex work), if we're not 
too cowed to give them a chance."

http://salon.com/books/feature/2001/09/06/poet/print.html

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

Wise Wretch! with Pleasures too refin'd to please;
With too much Spirit to be e'er at ease;
With too much Quickness ever to be taught;
With too much Thinking to have common Thought:
You purchase Pain with all that Joy can give,
And die of nothing but a Rage to live.
-- Alexander Pope

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From moira_russell  Thu Sep  6 11:51:54 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 07:51:54 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Politicopoetics
Message-ID: <F1449z7GonUE5IKcDvL0000c5b4@hotmail.com>

>An aside:
>Speaking as a member (not as a list manager) my wish
>for the list is that people would "gotcha" one another
>in a friendlier fashion...and not make fun of email addresses
>and the like. I was reminded recently that the etymology of
>the word "tease" came from sticking someone with
>the point of a sword. Worth bearing in mind, I think.

Excerpted from the OED:

[OE. tsan to tear or pull to pieces, tease (wool, etc.), wk. vb. = OLG. 
*t?san (MLG., LG. t?sen, MDu. t?zen, Du. teezen to draw, pull, scratch, 
NFris. tiese), OHG. zeisan str. vb., MHG. zeisen wk. vb., Ger. dial. (Bav.) 
zaisen, zeisen (Schade) to tease, pick wool:OTeut. *taisjan and *taisan: cf. 
also TOASE v.]
- To separate or pull asunder the fibres of; to comb or card (wool, flax, 
etc.) in preparation for spinning; to open out by pulling asunder; to shred.
- To tear in pieces. Obs.
- to tease out (fig.): to extract, get out, obtain, esp. by painstaking 
effort. Also to tease on to.
- To worry or irritate by persistent action which vexes or annoys; now esp. 
in lighter sense, to disturb by persistent petty annoyance, out of mere 
mischief or sport; to bother or plague in a petty way.
- slang. To flog. ? Obs.

Good point.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

Wise Wretch! with Pleasures too refin'd to please;
With too much Spirit to be e'er at ease;
With too much Quickness ever to be taught;
With too much Thinking to have common Thought:
You purchase Pain with all that Joy can give,
And die of nothing but a Rage to live.
-- Alexander Pope



_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From halvard  Thu Sep  6 16:13:26 2001
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 16:13:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] New website for Lynda and Hal
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEHEEAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Hi, guys and gals--

Just wanted to announce that our (Lynda's and my) new website
is pretty much up and running. Comments and suggestions (especially
from those of you who are pros out there) would be very welcome.

The URL is in the sig down below.

Hal


Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html



From wjbat  Thu Sep  6 19:08:43 2001
From: wjbat (Wendy Battin)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 19:08:43 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Curiosity/Millay
In-Reply-To: <F304xQLg0L4w4oNJMtF0000d83c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010906190843.028438@oak.cc.conncoll.edu>

Judith Thurman writes, in her New Yorker review, "Nothing can shake my
conviction that a great poet would never, under any circumstances, 
publish lines such as 'Down, you mongrel, Death!/Back into your kennel!/I
have stolen breath/In a stalk of fennel!' "

I'm assuming that Thurman finds these lines appalling because she doesn't
know Hesiod, who has Prometheus smuggling Zeus's closely-watched fire out
in a  hollow stalk of fennel.  (Or is there some other reason to think
these lines are worse than others?)  

I'm not a fan of Millay & certainly wouldn't argue that she's a great
poet; but what a depressing crapshoot this pobiz turns out to be.

Wendy
======================
Wendy Battin              wjbat at conncoll.edu   
Contemporary American Poetry Archive  http://capa.conncoll.edu




From MillB  Thu Sep  6 19:35:52 2001
From: MillB (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 19:35:52 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry Daily
Message-ID: <6.1ba25ada.28c96258@aol.com>

Greetings all:

Someone said that one of my poems was included in Poetry Daily, but the Yahoo Link that was sent didn't work.  Does anyone know how to check their archives?

Many thanks,

Mill

Poetry Daily Feature: John Koethe 
.. Young, Charles Harper Webb, Joseph Di Prisco, Ralph Burns, Millicent C. Borges, Carmella Braniger, Leslie Adrienne Miller, Priscilla Atkins, Matthew Miller ... 
http://www.poems.com/sycamkoe.htm   



From duemer  Thu Sep  6 19:38:45 2001
From: duemer (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 19:38:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry Daily
References: <6.1ba25ada.28c96258@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006c01c1372d$12f84100$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

Mill,
the PD site is at http://www.poems.com/

jd
======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750 
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
====================== 








From grahamd  Thu Sep  6 20:43:34 2001
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 19:43:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] MillB/Poetry Daily
Message-ID: <200109070044.f870iUJ94571@mx1.mx.voyager.net>

Mill, you're not in the PD archives.  What happened was that John Koethe was
featured some time ago with a poem from Sycamore Review.  In the blurb about
Sycamore, your name appears along with others appearing in the same issue JK
does.

They purge their archives once a year, so this page is no longer active. 
But a Google search  can still turn it up.  In case you're interested, go
to:  

http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:GE9-CTnqOOo:www.poems.com/sycamkoe.htm+
+%22Charles+Harper+Webb,+Joseph+Di+Prisco,+Ralph+Burns,+Millicent+C.+%0D%3EB
orges%22&hl=en

David Graham
_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________

----------
>From: MillB at aol.com
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry Daily
>Date: Thu, Sep 6, 2001, 6:35 PM
>

>Greetings all:
>
>Someone said that one of my poems was included in Poetry Daily, but the 
>Yahoo Link that was sent didn't work.  Does anyone know how to check their 
>archives?
>
>Many thanks,
>
>Mill
>
>Poetry Daily Feature: John Koethe 
>.. Young, Charles Harper Webb, Joseph Di Prisco, Ralph Burns, Millicent C. 
>Borges, Carmella Braniger, Leslie Adrienne Miller, Priscilla Atkins, 
>Matthew Miller ... 
>http://www.poems.com/sycamkoe.htm   
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From wasanthony  Fri Sep  7 11:18:13 2001
From: wasanthony (jcervantes)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 08:18:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: [crewrt-l] Belated PGP Announcement:  Live Music by James Cervantes
Message-ID: <20010907151813.98185.qmail@web12107.mail.yahoo.com>

Yes, shameless self-promotion.

- Jim

> 
> **************************Press Release******************************
> 
> Pecan Grove Press is happy to announce the publication of
> Live Music by James Cervantes.
> 
> Previous poetry collections by James Cervantes include The 
> Headlong Future and The Year Is Approaching Snow.  The editor 
> of the on-line journal, Salt River Review, Cervantes has been widely
> published in literary magazines, most recently in such distinguished
> literary reviews as The Boston Review, North American Review
> and Quarterly West.
> 
> Special Note:  Pecan Grove Press will be hosting a reading of poems
> from Live Music at The Inter-American Book Fair in San Antonio,
> Texas,
> in October and a reading at St. Mary's University.
> 
> Cervantes, James.  Live Music.  San Antonio, TX:  Pecan Grove
> Press, 2001.  ISBN: 1-931247-02-1.  $9.00
> Add $1.25 S&H
> 
> Cover design by Lynda Schor
> 
> Available from Pecan Grove Press or Baker & Taylor, Distributors,
> available on-line from Amazon.com  Pecan Grove Press WEB Site:
> http://library.stmarytx.edu/pgpress
> 
> Congratulations to James Cervantes for a beautiful collection of
> poems!
> 
> --Palmer
> 
> p.s., Subscribers to PGP will receive a copy of Live Music at no
>         additional charge.
> 
> **************************End Release********************************
> *******************************************************
> H. Palmer Hall
> Pecan Grove Press
> Box AL, 1 Camino Santa Maria
> San Antonio, TX 78228-8608
> 
> Telephone:    (210) 436-3441
> Fax:	      (210) 436-3782
> email:	      hpalmer at texas.net
> 
> Press HomePage:  http://library.stmarytx.edu/pgpress
> Personal Homepage: http://hpalmer.home.texas.net
> ********************************************************
> 
> ___________________________________________________________________
> Archives-> http://www.interversity.org/lists/crewrt-l/archives.php
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------
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> http://www.interversity.org


=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
"Ripples" @ <http://www.poetserv.net>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

__________________________________________________
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From moira_russell  Fri Sep  7 13:43:03 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 09:43:03 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Curiosity/Millay
Message-ID: <F47FExZeQorESPUT5Mn0000f760@hotmail.com>

>what a depressing crapshoot this pobiz turns out to be.

Indeed.  Get admitted to Vassar, move ahead two spaces;  become nationally 
famous and win Pulitzer, move ahead ten spaces;  grow artistically in later 
sonnet sequences, acquire good karma;  get swept out of fashion by rising 
tides of Modernism and anti-emotionalism, go to oblivion, go directly to 
oblivion, do not pass go.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From JackKerouac25  Fri Sep  7 18:11:27 2001
From: JackKerouac25 (JackKerouac25 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 18:11:27 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gaylord Brewer/Virgil Suarez
Message-ID: <168.7e91d0.28caa00f@aol.com>

I had a chance to see Gaylord Brewer and Virgil Suarez read last night.  Both 
were personable, nice people and rather good poets.

Anyone ever hear of these two cats?

I'll post more when this monstrous pile of freshman essays shrinks somewhat.


Jeffrey L. Newberry
Adjunct Instructor
Department of English and Foreign Languages
University of West Florida
11000 University Parkway
Pensacola, FL  32514
850.474.2923
850.473.7330



From FanwoodJEL  Fri Sep  7 18:57:26 2001
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 18:57:26 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gaylord Brewer/Virgil Suarez
Message-ID: <46.1a40c8a3.28caaad6@aol.com>

Gaylord Brewer submitted a wonderful manuscript to the just finished Tupelo 
Press poetry competition, but withdrew it when he won another. Don't know 
what--yet. Virgil is a Havana-born poet, now living and teaching here. His 
work is everywhere, both poetry and prose: distinctive, strong-voiced, 
rhythmic, imaginative. He has authored something like 15 books, and is, I 
believe a full professor in the MFA dep't at either Louisiana State or 
Florida State University, not sure which.

Could I suggest that we try not to refer to our contemporaries as *rather 
good.* It's awfully patronizing. Thanks.

Your one man guide to good behavior and eradication of all things patronizing,
Jeffrey Levine

In a message dated 9/7/01 6:12:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
JackKerouac25 at aol.com writes:


> I had a chance to see Gaylord Brewer and Virgil Suarez read last night.  
> Both 
> were personable, nice people and rather good poets.
> 
> Anyone ever hear of these two cats?
> 
> I'll post more when this monstrous pile of freshman essays shrinks somewhat.
> 
> 
> 


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From alphavil  Fri Sep  7 22:08:32 2001
From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 22:08:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] the Pullitzer's Best Year
References: <F47FExZeQorESPUT5Mn0000f760@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3B997D9F.60E3FC5B@ix.netcom.com>

Winners
                                       FICTION
                                                  The Kissinger Memoirs
                                                  (Hoax 'n Triflin')
                                        DRAMA
                                                  The Shrike by Joseph Kramm
                                       HISTORY
                                                  The Electric Kool-Aid Acid
Test
                                                  by George Hunter White
                                                  (Reader's Digest)
                                 BIOGRAPHY OR
                               AUTOBIOGRAPHY
                                                  Charles Evans Hughes by Merlo

                                                  J. Pusey (Macmillan)
                                        POETRY
                                                  The Pucker
                                                  by Yaso Adiodi
                                         MUSIC
                                                  The Theme to Gidgette Goes
Hawaiian
                                                  formerly called "I Was
Strapped for Music"
                                                  by George Anthiel

Anybody else got a favorite?





From CobbCoStudioArts  Sat Sep  8 00:27:50 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 21:27:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gaylord Brewer/Virgil Suarez
Message-ID: <20010908042750.6C020274E@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From FanwoodJEL  Sat Sep  8 00:39:28 2001
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 00:39:28 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gaylord Brewer/Virgil Suarez
Message-ID: <145.13bc708.28cafb00@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/8/01 12:29:35 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com writes:


> Hey Jeff,
> 
> They sound like a couple of starters for Milwaukee.
> 
> Bob  (not really!)
> 
> 

Geez, relieved to know you realize mine was poking fun at myself. (SUICIDAL 
POET BLASTS LIVING LEGEND.) The deafening silence crazed me with worry. But I 
think Suarez played first base for the Senators.

Jeffrey
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From CobbCoStudioArts  Sat Sep  8 06:37:12 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 03:37:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gaylord Brewer/Virgil Suarez
Message-ID: <20010908103712.7C9AB2758@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From FanwoodJEL  Sat Sep  8 07:44:07 2001
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 07:44:07 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gaylord Brewer/Virgil Suarez
Message-ID: <90.197aafa7.28cb5e87@aol.com>

Yes, that's the critical issue with We, the Poets. We all look alike: no 
numbers on our backs, too-similar hearts on our invisible sleeves (all except 
for the lang-pos, who wear carts on their hearts). That's why we prefer the 
relative obscurity of road games.

J

In a message dated 9/8/01 6:38:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com writes:


> Jeff,
> 
> I guess you can't tell the players without a score card.
> 
> Bob C.
> 
> 


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From CobbCoStudioArts  Sat Sep  8 08:29:00 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 05:29:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gaylord Brewer/Virgil Suarez
Message-ID: <20010908122900.4E2542758@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From FanwoodJEL  Sat Sep  8 21:17:06 2001
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 21:17:06 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gaylord Brewer/Virgil Suarez
Message-ID: <3c.11141207.28cc1d12@aol.com>

I was driving the team bus, in my alternately too subtle or not subtle enough 
manner, toward an appreciation of tolerance (worst case), empowerment (best) 
of this one small corner on the map of cultural diversity.  -- Jeffrey


When the Great Chinese Papermakers Came to Cuba, the Great Poets Followed

because of the great stillness, a silence so deep it made the pink carp
rise to the pond's surface in hypnotic slumber, because an egret's crest

is blood red, a clenched fist, lips mouthing the air in Os, a tiger's
stealth among the bamboo forest, a hummingbird's delight in hibiscus,

dizzied by the flashes of sunlight echoed in its petals, because back home
the rain riveted the roofs over old lovers, a rumor of anguish, 
unreciprocated,

in Havana, one look at the harbors, beyond them toward Regla, the way boats
took on an air of oak leaves strewn on the horizon, an act of forgetfulness,

into the pulp go their memories of a homeland, people, animals, scenes
of far-gone childhoods, a training of the spirit to hear everything;

they've come to speak silence into paper, the lost language of cranes,
a parrot's repetition for beauty, the way so many yearn for smooth, clean

surfaces, this heavenly paper upon which to write a first, lasting word.

-Virgil Suarez 
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From aprentiss  Sun Sep  9 01:55:20 2001
From: aprentiss (Prentiss, Amber)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 01:55:20 -0400 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why do we read, anyway?
Message-ID: <E7C06C25D501D511BA9900508BB82AA90DE188@ness.agnesscott.edu>

I found this article in the New York Times. I thought it was interesting,
especially the part saying that "today's assertions that books indoctrinate
their readers with political ideology and gender stereotypes seem highly
exaggerated." (Since I haven't had anyone suggest that every author is
trying to hypnotize me - yet.) Why do people read? What do you think about
the article?

-Amber

Reading (Gasp) for Enlightenment, Without Snobbery or Shame

By EDWARD ROTHSTEIN

 In contemporary American life, claims of cultural superiority are
shunned as provincial and presumptuous and embarrassing.

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/08/arts/08CONN.html?ex=1001024283&ei=1&en
=5ac83f6e9aa05925

/-----------------------------------------------------------------\


Visit NYTimes.com for complete access to the
most authoritative news coverage on the Web,
updated throughout the day.

Become a member today! It's free!

http://www.nytimes.com?eta


\-----------------------------------------------------------------/




From duemer  Sun Sep  9 08:27:26 2001
From: duemer (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 08:27:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why do we read, anyway?
References: <E7C06C25D501D511BA9900508BB82AA90DE188@ness.agnesscott.edu>
Message-ID: <000a01c1392a$c919b780$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

Amber,
interesting article. The information about the reading habits of the working
classes in Brittan has been well-documented (by academics) for the last 20
years or so. The basic premise of the article, also, requires one to
construct an "academic literary critic" who is more narrow than is actually
the case, in my experience. And the notion that "great works" can
"transcend" class & ideology is problematic in all sorts of ways--isn't it
truer to say that people with different views of the world read these books
in different ways?

But that is all prologue. I've spent a good deal of time over the last few
years living in Vietnam, which, despite the growth of recent years, is still
a poor country. But the literacy rate in Vietnam is above 90%, a phenomenon
that can be traced directly to the teaching of Ho Chi Minh, who in the 1930s
insisted that his guerilla troops learn how to read & write as well as how
to handle their weapons. (Under the French colonial regime from 1854 to 1945
only a tiny percentage of Vietnamese were literate, forming an urban elite
who could assist the French administrators.) At any rate, the tradition of
literacy is strong. Most of the shoeshine boys & postcard sellers who
approach tourists begin their sales pitch by explaining they are trying to
earn money for school fees. It is not unusual to see women from the
countryside putting down their shoulder poles & baskets to rest and pulling
out a newspaper or small book to read. (The government subsidizes printing &
publishing, keeping the cost of books low.) And almost any Vietnamese can
quote lines from the Vietnamese classics, as well as any number of folk
poems. It is not merely a literate culture, but a literary one. The fact
that I am a professor earned me some status in Vietnam, but when people
discovered that I was also a poet, I was--amazing to me!--held in some
reverence by my Vietnamese friends.

jd
======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
======================








From bardo  Sun Sep  9 08:56:57 2001
From: bardo (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 08:56:57 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why do we read, anyway?
References: <E7C06C25D501D511BA9900508BB82AA90DE188@ness.agnesscott.edu>
Message-ID: <000e01c1392e$e8c6b520$ef7dbd18@win98>

Amber,

Have a look at this page of demographics from
BookWeb:
http://www.bookweb.org/research/stats/387.html

It shows that in the '90s, about half of books sold
comprised popular fiction, with cooking taking
another 10 percent. Art/Literature/Poetry dropped
from 4.7 to 3.9 percent.

Figures like these show what people read. Your
question--why they read what they do--may prove more
difficult to answer.

Rothstein mentions Prof. Roth's book on the British
working classes' reading habits. Most of his
research focuses on a period before modern media,
and during an era of smug superiority in the British
Empire when self-improvement (mainly of a spiritual
kind, since social mobility remained limited) by
reading offered one of the few forms of diversion.
Intellectuals like T. H. Huxley gave series of
lectures to workers to supplement their efforts.

Today, self-improvement focuses more on the physical
and economic: how to get tight abs, how to avoid
divorce, how to raise kids while eviscerating an
attacker with a keychain--much of that advice
available on videotape or through the endless social
programs of the Aquarian age. Besides, Brits
populated Britain; America, in its desperate
diversity, has moved increasingly toward what Robert
Bly called 'small colonies of the saved.'

Rothstein does point to a central paradox in
American life: lip service to egalitarianism
combined with a fierce determination to have only
the best. For some, the best means the most popular;
to same, the most expensive; to some, the most
efficient--for most, it means better than the next
guy's stuff. And if the next guy can afford a
pricier toy, one can always retreat into
identification with the most popular toy among one's
own group, and claim its superiority on the basis of
who owns or uses it, rather than on the basis of any
intrinsic value it might possess.
Some interesting speculation might arise about how
this affects the motivations for reading this topic
or that, this author or that, though de gustibus non
est disputandum.

What do you think?

Best,

Dan

----- Original Message -----
From: Prentiss, Amber <aprentiss at agnesscott.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 1:55 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why do we read, anyway?


> I found this article in the New York Times. I
thought it was interesting,
> especially the part saying that "today's
assertions that books indoctrinate
> their readers with political ideology and gender
stereotypes seem highly
> exaggerated." (Since I haven't had anyone suggest
that every author is
> trying to hypnotize me - yet.) Why do people read?
What do you think about
> the article?
>
> -Amber
>
> Reading (Gasp) for Enlightenment, Without Snobbery
or Shame
>
> By EDWARD ROTHSTEIN
>
>  In contemporary American life, claims of cultural
superiority are
> shunned as provincial and presumptuous and
embarrassing.
>
>
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/08/arts/08CONN.html?e
x=1001024283&ei=1&en
> =5ac83f6e9aa05925
>
>
/---------------------------------------------------
--------------\
>
>
> Visit NYTimes.com for complete access to the
> most authoritative news coverage on the Web,
> updated throughout the day.
>
> Become a member today! It's free!
>
> http://www.nytimes.com?eta
>
>
>
\---------------------------------------------------
--------------/
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From halvard  Sun Sep  9 11:19:54 2001
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 11:19:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: "Two Poems" by Ron Loewinsohn
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEKHEAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Two Poems

1. His Talk, What He Says

His talk, what he says is--
	--I can't transcribe it, it's too
guttural, too painful

We were sitting in this bar, arguing or
	discussing something, that his wife
was in some distant city with some strange
	man. In her letters, what he could see
in them: there was a creek behind the house
	& things were 'alright.' There'd been
a party 'the other night' with some friends,
	a couple of musicians, that woke the kid
up, who listened for a while & then asked
	his mother to buy him a horn with
buttons on it so he could play jazz.

By this time we'd finished our beers &
	got up to leave. This guy, at the next
table, put out his hand & called him 'Mr
	Broughton'--an understandable mistake;
it was straightened out & the guy introduced
	himself & the kid he had with him,
a blond kid about 12, fidgety on the chair
	& fussing absently with the salt shaker.
The guy explained he was the kid's keeper, ah,
	guardian; his, ah, parents were in New
York & he attended to all the kid's needs,
	that he took care of the kid, who was a
painter. That he wanted us to see the kid's
	latest show--for some reason; did he
want either or both of us to re-
	view it?

He introduced us again to V, & we looked
	at the child, who
writhed, he writhed on the
	chair, a kid
of 12, writhing, the muscles in
	his neck
taut, the hand out for the salt shaker stopped
	in mid-
flight,
	the right hand pawing autonomously
at his neck &
	jaw, his mouth
moving, all the
	time, this kid, this
writhing kid, this writhing kid
	talking, talking
to us, some kind of drool
	noises


2. The Mozart Inkblots

We'd just come from the Thursday service:
	the choir, those cows! I could still hear
them, their 'singing'--whatever it was still
	ringing in my ears. I could hardly hear
what Schachtner was saying.
	We had to stop, right there
in the Marktstrasse & repeat.
	His upper lip was still
a little reddened from the mouthpiece; he
	was a good trumpeter, but I can't remember
what he told me that afternoon, tho I remember
	watching his mouth move & the
redness of his upper lip.

We got to my place first & I asked him
	in, for tea, or a beer, something,
I forget, an expression
	of affection. But whatever we'd decided
was forgotten: we came in chattering &
	almost tripped over Wolfgangerl. My
boy; he was four at the time & full length
	on the floor, writing with an enormous
quill on a sheet of music paper. I touched
	Schachtner's elbow & asked my son
what he was doing.
	Writing a concerto for the clavier, the first
part is almost done.
	I wanted to see it, but it wasn't quite
finished. I told him it didn't matter.

I showed it to Schachtner, a page of notes
	written over dried inkblots, & laughed
quietly & proudly. Then I looked at the sheet
	more closely & the inkblots fell away
& Schachtner fell away & I could hear it!
	I could hear the music, correct & original,
until I could no longer hear it because my tears
	had hid the notes from me.
All I could say was,
	Herr Schachtner, & showed it to him.
At the age of four he'd written a concerto
	for the clavier, K?chel 1

________________________________
"(NB The little Wolfgangerl dipped his pen every
time to the bottom of the inkwell so that a blot
fell every time he touched the paper, but that did
not disturb him, he rubbed it off with his hand and
went on writing.)" --JA Schachtner, in a letter to
Mozart's sister in re Wolfgang's childhood.

--Ron Loewinsohn, from *Meat Air: Poems 1957-1968*.
Harcourt Brace & World, c. 1977


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html




From aprentiss  Sun Sep  9 14:10:50 2001
From: aprentiss (Prentiss, Amber)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 14:10:50 -0400 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why do we read, anyway?
Message-ID: <E7C06C25D501D511BA9900508BB82AA90DE189@ness.agnesscott.edu>

 
I think that's about right. I think the low trend in literary readership can
be traced to the way we teach people to read and write. In America,
education does its best to remove fun from reading, as I've probably
mentioned before. I do not fondly remember correcting sentences for grammar
out of workbooks. Writing a plot summary in the 8th grade wasn't exactly the
height of edutainment. It seems like people are taught to be literate here
so they can read isntructions and write technical reports, not so they can
enjoy or provoke themselves. Being an English major isn't much better.
Especially when I'm reading for classes, the pleasure is sometimes lost in
the interpretation. If I have only a certain amount of time to finish
something and write an essay, I sometimes end up only asking 'And what does
he mean by this?' throughout an entire novel. By the end, I don't know
whether I liked it or not by the end, but I have a wonderful thesis. I think
the question, "Is this any good? Do I give a damn, and why?" ought to always
come before "What does this mean?", but that doesn't happen as much for me
anymore. Maybe that's a personal problem, but I think it's widely
applicable.

There does seem to be some snobbery along with the consumption of
literature. At least for me, when I have aspirations to be literary, I feel
forever swamped by people who have read more than me and know more than me.
Reading can feel more like crossing things off an endless to-do list than a
pastime. It's hard to get back to the state when I could enjoy just about
anything I read. 

I thought it strange that the author assumed that, since women would read
male-written literature, they agreed with everything in it. That if
something offended them, they would automatically throw the book out with
the table scraps. I've read things that offended me because I'm female,
because I'm black, and because of a lot of other things. A writer could
trouble me, but if the offense doesn't outweigh the quality, it usually
doesn't stop me from reading the work. I think criticism about race and
class and gender is actually important because it puts writers in their
places. We want the inductees in the canon to be demi-gods, but they aren't.
I know full well that writers can be ignorant, too, and I don't think every
word pecked out by a good writer is a breath of gold. It is dangerous to
treat writers, scientists, or anyone else certified grade-A genius as if
they have an iron glove around the truth of human nature.

Or something. I'm rambling, and I'm hungry.

-Amber
-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Zimmerman
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: 9/9/2001 8:56 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why do we read, anyway?

Amber,

Have a look at this page of demographics from
BookWeb:
http://www.bookweb.org/research/stats/387.html

It shows that in the '90s, about half of books sold
comprised popular fiction, with cooking taking
another 10 percent. Art/Literature/Poetry dropped
from 4.7 to 3.9 percent.

Figures like these show what people read. Your
question--why they read what they do--may prove more
difficult to answer.

Rothstein mentions Prof. Roth's book on the British
working classes' reading habits. Most of his
research focuses on a period before modern media,
and during an era of smug superiority in the British
Empire when self-improvement (mainly of a spiritual
kind, since social mobility remained limited) by
reading offered one of the few forms of diversion.
Intellectuals like T. H. Huxley gave series of
lectures to workers to supplement their efforts.

Today, self-improvement focuses more on the physical
and economic: how to get tight abs, how to avoid
divorce, how to raise kids while eviscerating an
attacker with a keychain--much of that advice
available on videotape or through the endless social
programs of the Aquarian age. Besides, Brits
populated Britain; America, in its desperate
diversity, has moved increasingly toward what Robert
Bly called 'small colonies of the saved.'

Rothstein does point to a central paradox in
American life: lip service to egalitarianism
combined with a fierce determination to have only
the best. For some, the best means the most popular;
to same, the most expensive; to some, the most
efficient--for most, it means better than the next
guy's stuff. And if the next guy can afford a
pricier toy, one can always retreat into
identification with the most popular toy among one's
own group, and claim its superiority on the basis of
who owns or uses it, rather than on the basis of any
intrinsic value it might possess.
Some interesting speculation might arise about how
this affects the motivations for reading this topic
or that, this author or that, though de gustibus non
est disputandum.

What do you think?

Best,

Dan

----- Original Message -----
From: Prentiss, Amber <aprentiss at agnesscott.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 1:55 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why do we read, anyway?


> I found this article in the New York Times. I
thought it was interesting,
> especially the part saying that "today's
assertions that books indoctrinate
> their readers with political ideology and gender
stereotypes seem highly
> exaggerated." (Since I haven't had anyone suggest
that every author is
> trying to hypnotize me - yet.) Why do people read?
What do you think about
> the article?
>
> -Amber
>
> Reading (Gasp) for Enlightenment, Without Snobbery
or Shame
>
> By EDWARD ROTHSTEIN
>
>  In contemporary American life, claims of cultural
superiority are
> shunned as provincial and presumptuous and
embarrassing.
>
>
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/08/arts/08CONN.html?e
x=1001024283&ei=1&en
> =5ac83f6e9aa05925
>
>
/---------------------------------------------------
--------------\
>
>
> Visit NYTimes.com for complete access to the
> most authoritative news coverage on the Web,
> updated throughout the day.
>
> Become a member today! It's free!
>
> http://www.nytimes.com?eta
>
>
>
\---------------------------------------------------
--------------/
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From grahamd  Sun Sep  9 14:28:11 2001
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 13:28:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why do we read, anyway?
Message-ID: <200109091829.f89ITJp67437@mx2.mx.voyager.net>

Very interesting statistics.  Is poetry broken out anywhere, do you know,
from the broader category of Art/Literature/Poetry?  If 39,000 "units" of
adult Art/Lit/Poetry books were sold in 1998, how many were books of poetry?
 I'd be especially interested in seeing what the trends were over the past
10 years or so.  I've often heard the figure 1000 tossed out as the rough
number of new books of poetry published in the US each year.  Wonder if that
figure is accurate, whether it is holding steady or not, and what percentage
of the print runs actually are sold.  (And, of course, what the total number
of books printed might be.)

Somehow, even a million books sold per year does not sound like much,
compared against the total US population.  Does this mean that fewer than 1
in 200 adults commonly buy a book in a given year?

Are library purchases and books purchased as course texts figured into these
numbers, or just individual personal consumption?  Certainly one would have
to factor those things in, and readership figures would naturally be much
higher than purchase figures in any case.  

David Graham




_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________

----------
>From: Daniel Zimmerman <bardo at optonline.net>
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why do we read, anyway?
>Date: Sun, Sep 9, 2001, 7:56 AM
>

>Amber,
>
>Have a look at this page of demographics from
>BookWeb:
>http://www.bookweb.org/research/stats/387.html
>
>It shows that in the '90s, about half of books sold
>comprised popular fiction, with cooking taking
>another 10 percent. Art/Literature/Poetry dropped
>from 4.7 to 3.9 percent.
>
>Figures like these show what people read. Your
>question--why they read what they do--may prove more
>difficult to answer.
>
>Rothstein mentions Prof. Roth's book on the British
>working classes' reading habits. Most of his
>research focuses on a period before modern media,
>and during an era of smug superiority in the British
>Empire when self-improvement (mainly of a spiritual
>kind, since social mobility remained limited) by
>reading offered one of the few forms of diversion.
>Intellectuals like T. H. Huxley gave series of
>lectures to workers to supplement their efforts.
>
>Today, self-improvement focuses more on the physical
>and economic: how to get tight abs, how to avoid
>divorce, how to raise kids while eviscerating an
>attacker with a keychain--much of that advice
>available on videotape or through the endless social
>programs of the Aquarian age. Besides, Brits
>populated Britain; America, in its desperate
>diversity, has moved increasingly toward what Robert
>Bly called 'small colonies of the saved.'
>
>Rothstein does point to a central paradox in
>American life: lip service to egalitarianism
>combined with a fierce determination to have only
>the best. For some, the best means the most popular;
>to same, the most expensive; to some, the most
>efficient--for most, it means better than the next
>guy's stuff. And if the next guy can afford a
>pricier toy, one can always retreat into
>identification with the most popular toy among one's
>own group, and claim its superiority on the basis of
>who owns or uses it, rather than on the basis of any
>intrinsic value it might possess.
>Some interesting speculation might arise about how
>this affects the motivations for reading this topic
>or that, this author or that, though de gustibus non
>est disputandum.
>
>What do you think?
>
>Best,
>
>Dan




From JackKerouac25  Sun Sep  9 15:31:38 2001
From: JackKerouac25 (JackKerouac25 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 15:31:38 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gaylord Brewer/Virgil Suarez
Message-ID: <3a.1a7bbddd.28cd1d9a@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/7/01 5:58:29 PM Central Daylight Time, 
FanwoodJEL at aol.com writes:

> Could I suggest that we try not to refer to our contemporaries as *rather 
>  good.* It's awfully patronizing. Thanks.
>  

I suppose this is what "they" mean when "they" talk about being 
misunderstood...

Ah, the slippery connotations of this thing called language.

Jeffrey L. Newberry
Adjunct Instructor
Department of English and Foreign Languages
University of West Florida
11000 University Parkway
Pensacola, FL  32514
850.474.2923
850.473.7330



From JackKerouac25  Sun Sep  9 15:41:23 2001
From: JackKerouac25 (JackKerouac25 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 15:41:23 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark Jarman
Message-ID: <7e.1a8d42b7.28cd1fe3@aol.com>

I wanted to thank everyone who responded to my query about Mark Jarman (early 
in the summer--May or June, I think).  The paper I was working on did get 
accepted to a conference at the University of Dayton.  

Below is one of Jarman's poems from _Image_.  The complete page can be found 
at http://www.imagejournal.org/jarman.html.  

Thoughts/questions/discussion/flames?

Thanks for the interest,

JLN

Psalm: First Forgive the Silence

First forgive the silence
    That answers prayer,
Then forgive the prayer
    That stains the silence.

Excuse the absence
    That feels like presence,
Then excuse the feeling
    That insists on presence.

Pardon the delay
    Of revelation,
Then ask pardon for revealing
    Your impatience.

Forgive God
    For being only a word,
Then ask God to forgive
    The betrayal of language.


Jeffrey L. Newberry
Adjunct Instructor
Department of English and Foreign Languages
University of West Florida
11000 University Parkway
Pensacola, FL  32514
850.474.2923 (English Department)
850.857.6043 (Office)



From FanwoodJEL  Sun Sep  9 16:06:13 2001
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 16:06:13 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gaylord Brewer/Virgil Suarez
Message-ID: <b7.13691fcf.28cd25b5@aol.com>

Yes, that's one way to look at it. I apologize that I'm not smart enough or 
perceptive enough to judge the nuance. Must be a slip.

Jeffrey

In a message dated 9/9/01 3:32:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
JackKerouac25 at aol.com writes:


> In a message dated 9/7/01 5:58:29 PM Central Daylight Time, 
> FanwoodJEL at aol.com writes:
> 
> > Could I suggest that we try not to refer to our contemporaries as *rather 
> >  good.* It's awfully patronizing. Thanks.
> >  
> 
> I suppose this is what "they" mean when "they" talk about being 
> misunderstood...
> 
> Ah, the slippery connotations of this thing called language.
> 
> Jeffrey L. Newberry
> Adjunct Instructor
> Department of English and Foreign Languages
> University of West Florida
> 11000 University Parkway
> Pensacola, FL  32514
> 850.474.2923
> 850.473.7330
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


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From bardo  Sun Sep  9 16:21:27 2001
From: bardo (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 16:21:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why do we read, anyway?
References: <200109091829.f89ITJp67437@mx2.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <000701c1396d$01035a60$ef7dbd18@win98>

David,

The figure of 39,000 seems very low; perhaps BookWeb
presents only a (let's hope representative) sample
of total sales in that category from major
publishers, though even then the figure seems bogus.
I couldn't find anything on poetry book sales in
particular, but see also the articles from which
I've excerpted the following:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Reading, Voice, Publication
'Poetry and the American People' Symposium
BY DONNA URSCHEL
May 2000
http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/0005/poetsymp.html
.
Mr. [Jack] Shoemaker, the last panelist to speak,
provided a historical context to the last 40 years
of poetry publishing. In the '60s and early '70s,
there was a golden age of poetry publishing, because
of a proliferation of small- press magazines. In the
late '70s and the '80s, the poetry market was
abysmal. "Poetry sales plummeted, the small press
disappeared; there was a crisis in publishing," he
said.
==================================

The University of Arizona Poetry Center
Poetry Center Newsletter
Vol. 21, #1, Fall 1996
http://www.coh.arizona.edu/poetry/nwsfl96.html
.
National Poetry Month Last April was the first
National Poetry Month. The Academy of American Poets
launched the effort with a goal of broadening the
audience for poetry. In its July 29 issue,
Publishers Weekly reported that, according to a
follow-up survey conducted by the Academy,
booksellers experienced
substantial increases in sales of poetry titles.
Recent titles, prize-winning collections and
collections advertised in conjunction with National
Poetry Month sold well, as
did core backlist titles by such classic authors as
Dickinson, Whitman and Yeats. Poetry-on-cassette
sales quadrupled from the previous month. Barnes &
Noble
showed an average increase of 25%; for titles
specifically promoted during NPM, increases ranged
from 50% to 100%. Prairie Lights Books in Iowa City
saw a
"substantial increase" in poetry sales, and the UCLA
Bookstore reported an increase of "at least 600%,"
with $3500 in poetry sales in the first week of
April alone.
The Academy plans a second NPM in April 1997.
===================================

SLAM: Modern-day troubadours contribute to the
growth of poetry
sales, both in written form and oral recordings
Venise Wagner, OF THE [EXAMINER STAFF
Friday, April 21, 2000
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/exam
iner/archive/2000/04/21/BUSINESS2572.dtl
.
Brent Cunningham, sales and marketing manager at
Small Press Distribution in Berkeley, which
specializes in distributing poetry books, said his
company's 1998 sales grew 40 percent from the
previous year and another 10 percent in 1999. Sales
for the first quarter of this year are up 25 to 30
percent over the same period last year.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Best,

Dan


----- Original Message -----
From: David Graham <grahamd at mail.ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 2:28 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why do we read, anyway?


> Very interesting statistics.  Is poetry broken out
anywhere, do you know,
> from the broader category of
Art/Literature/Poetry?  If 39,000 "units" of
> adult Art/Lit/Poetry books were sold in 1998, how
many were books of poetry?
>  I'd be especially interested in seeing what the
trends were over the past
> 10 years or so.  I've often heard the figure 1000
tossed out as the rough
> number of new books of poetry published in the US
each year.  Wonder if that
> figure is accurate, whether it is holding steady
or not, and what percentage
> of the print runs actually are sold.  (And, of
course, what the total number
> of books printed might be.)
>
> Somehow, even a million books sold per year does
not sound like much,
> compared against the total US population.  Does
this mean that fewer than 1
> in 200 adults commonly buy a book in a given year?
>
> Are library purchases and books purchased as
course texts figured into these
> numbers, or just individual personal consumption?
Certainly one would have
> to factor those things in, and readership figures
would naturally be much
> higher than purchase figures in any case.
>
> David Graham
>
>
>
>
> _______________________
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> _______________________
>
> ----------
> >From: Daniel Zimmerman <bardo at optonline.net>
> >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why do we read, anyway?
> >Date: Sun, Sep 9, 2001, 7:56 AM
> >
>
> >Amber,
> >
> >Have a look at this page of demographics from
> >BookWeb:
> >http://www.bookweb.org/research/stats/387.html
> >
> >It shows that in the '90s, about half of books
sold
> >comprised popular fiction, with cooking taking
> >another 10 percent. Art/Literature/Poetry dropped
> >from 4.7 to 3.9 percent.
> >
> >Figures like these show what people read. Your
> >question--why they read what they do--may prove
more
> >difficult to answer.
> >
> >Rothstein mentions Prof. Roth's book on the
British
> >working classes' reading habits. Most of his
> >research focuses on a period before modern media,
> >and during an era of smug superiority in the
British
> >Empire when self-improvement (mainly of a
spiritual
> >kind, since social mobility remained limited) by
> >reading offered one of the few forms of
diversion.
> >Intellectuals like T. H. Huxley gave series of
> >lectures to workers to supplement their efforts.
> >
> >Today, self-improvement focuses more on the
physical
> >and economic: how to get tight abs, how to avoid
> >divorce, how to raise kids while eviscerating an
> >attacker with a keychain--much of that advice
> >available on videotape or through the endless
social
> >programs of the Aquarian age. Besides, Brits
> >populated Britain; America, in its desperate
> >diversity, has moved increasingly toward what
Robert
> >Bly called 'small colonies of the saved.'
> >
> >Rothstein does point to a central paradox in
> >American life: lip service to egalitarianism
> >combined with a fierce determination to have only

> >the best. For some, the best means the most
popular;
> >to same, the most expensive; to some, the most
> >efficient--for most, it means better than the
next
> >guy's stuff. And if the next guy can afford a
> >pricier toy, one can always retreat into
> >identification with the most popular toy among
one's
> >own group, and claim its superiority on the basis
of
> >who owns or uses it, rather than on the basis of
any
> >intrinsic value it might possess.
> >Some interesting speculation might arise about
how
> >this affects the motivations for reading this
topic
> >or that, this author or that, though de gustibus
non
> >est disputandum.
> >
> >What do you think?
> >
> >Best,
> >
> >Dan
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From bardo  Sun Sep  9 17:26:15 2001
From: bardo (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 17:26:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why do we read, anyway?
References: <200109091829.f89ITJp67437@mx2.mx.voyager.net>
 <000701c1396d$01035a60$ef7dbd18@win98>
Message-ID: <002901c13976$0e9bcbe0$ef7dbd18@win98>

Doh! (Good thing that term has found its way
into the OED. I really need it!)

BookWeb gives its figures in 000s!
39,000, books in that category of
Art/Literature/Poetry sold in '99!
(I just went back and had another
look--I couldn't believe the number, either).

I would like to know about the number of poetry
books
sold, but we have so many small presses that I
wonder
if anyone even compiles that statistic.

--Dan


----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel Zimmerman <bardo at optonline.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 4:21 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why do we read, anyway?


> David,
>
> The figure of 39,000 seems very low; perhaps
BookWeb
> presents only a (let's hope representative) sample
> of total sales in that category from major
> publishers, though even then the figure seems
bogus.
> I couldn't find anything on poetry book sales in
> particular, but see also the articles from which
> I've excerpted the following:
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Reading, Voice, Publication
> 'Poetry and the American People' Symposium
> BY DONNA URSCHEL
> May 2000
> http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/0005/poetsymp.html
> .
> Mr. [Jack] Shoemaker, the last panelist to speak,
> provided a historical context to the last 40 years
> of poetry publishing. In the '60s and early '70s,
> there was a golden age of poetry publishing,
because
> of a proliferation of small- press magazines. In
the
> late '70s and the '80s, the poetry market was
> abysmal. "Poetry sales plummeted, the small press
> disappeared; there was a crisis in publishing," he
> said.
> ==================================
>
> The University of Arizona Poetry Center
> Poetry Center Newsletter
> Vol. 21, #1, Fall 1996
> http://www.coh.arizona.edu/poetry/nwsfl96.html
> .
> National Poetry Month Last April was the first
> National Poetry Month. The Academy of American
Poets
> launched the effort with a goal of broadening the
> audience for poetry. In its July 29 issue,
> Publishers Weekly reported that, according to a
> follow-up survey conducted by the Academy,
> booksellers experienced
> substantial increases in sales of poetry titles.
> Recent titles, prize-winning collections and
> collections advertised in conjunction with
National
> Poetry Month sold well, as
> did core backlist titles by such classic authors
as
> Dickinson, Whitman and Yeats. Poetry-on-cassette
> sales quadrupled from the previous month. Barnes &
> Noble
> showed an average increase of 25%; for titles
> specifically promoted during NPM, increases ranged
> from 50% to 100%. Prairie Lights Books in Iowa
City
> saw a
> "substantial increase" in poetry sales, and the
UCLA
> Bookstore reported an increase of "at least 600%,"
> with $3500 in poetry sales in the first week of
> April alone.
> The Academy plans a second NPM in April 1997.
> ===================================
>
> SLAM: Modern-day troubadours contribute to the
> growth of poetry
> sales, both in written form and oral recordings
> Venise Wagner, OF THE [EXAMINER STAFF
> Friday, April 21, 2000
>
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/exam
> iner/archive/2000/04/21/BUSINESS2572.dtl
> .
> Brent Cunningham, sales and marketing manager at
> Small Press Distribution in Berkeley, which
> specializes in distributing poetry books, said his
> company's 1998 sales grew 40 percent from the
> previous year and another 10 percent in 1999.
Sales
> for the first quarter of this year are up 25 to 30
> percent over the same period last year.
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Best,
>
> Dan
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: David Graham <grahamd at mail.ripon.edu>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 2:28 PM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Why do we read, anyway?
>
>
> > Very interesting statistics.  Is poetry broken
out
> anywhere, do you know,
> > from the broader category of
> Art/Literature/Poetry?  If 39,000 "units" of
> > adult Art/Lit/Poetry books were sold in 1998,
how
> many were books of poetry?
> >  I'd be especially interested in seeing what the
> trends were over the past
> > 10 years or so.  I've often heard the figure
1000
> tossed out as the rough
> > number of new books of poetry published in the
US
> each year.  Wonder if that
> > figure is accurate, whether it is holding steady
> or not, and what percentage
> > of the print runs actually are sold.  (And, of
> course, what the total number
> > of books printed might be.)
> >
> > Somehow, even a million books sold per year does
> not sound like much,
> > compared against the total US population.  Does
> this mean that fewer than 1
> > in 200 adults commonly buy a book in a given
year?
> >
> > Are library purchases and books purchased as
> course texts figured into these
> > numbers, or just individual personal
consumption?
> Certainly one would have
> > to factor those things in, and readership
figures
> would naturally be much
> > higher than purchase figures in any case.
> >
> > David Graham
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________
> > David Graham
> > grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> > _______________________
> >
> > ----------
> > >From: Daniel Zimmerman <bardo at optonline.net>
> > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why do we read,
anyway?
> > >Date: Sun, Sep 9, 2001, 7:56 AM
> > >
> >
> > >Amber,
> > >
> > >Have a look at this page of demographics from
> > >BookWeb:
> > >http://www.bookweb.org/research/stats/387.html
> > >
> > >It shows that in the '90s, about half of books
> sold
> > >comprised popular fiction, with cooking taking
> > >another 10 percent. Art/Literature/Poetry
dropped
> > >from 4.7 to 3.9 percent.
> > >
> > >Figures like these show what people read. Your
> > >question--why they read what they do--may prove
> more
> > >difficult to answer.
> > >
> > >Rothstein mentions Prof. Roth's book on the
> British
> > >working classes' reading habits. Most of his
> > >research focuses on a period before modern
media,
> > >and during an era of smug superiority in the
> British
> > >Empire when self-improvement (mainly of a
> spiritual
> > >kind, since social mobility remained limited)
by
> > >reading offered one of the few forms of
> diversion.
> > >Intellectuals like T. H. Huxley gave series of
> > >lectures to workers to supplement their
efforts.
> > >
> > >Today, self-improvement focuses more on the
> physical
> > >and economic: how to get tight abs, how to
avoid
> > >divorce, how to raise kids while eviscerating
an
> > >attacker with a keychain--much of that advice
> > >available on videotape or through the endless
> social
> > >programs of the Aquarian age. Besides, Brits
> > >populated Britain; America, in its desperate
> > >diversity, has moved increasingly toward what
> Robert
> > >Bly called 'small colonies of the saved.'
> > >
> > >Rothstein does point to a central paradox in
> > >American life: lip service to egalitarianism
> > >combined with a fierce determination to have
only
>
> > >the best. For some, the best means the most
> popular;
> > >to same, the most expensive; to some, the most
> > >efficient--for most, it means better than the
> next
> > >guy's stuff. And if the next guy can afford a
> > >pricier toy, one can always retreat into
> > >identification with the most popular toy among
> one's
> > >own group, and claim its superiority on the
basis
> of
> > >who owns or uses it, rather than on the basis
of
> any
> > >intrinsic value it might possess.
> > >Some interesting speculation might arise about
> how
> > >this affects the motivations for reading this
> topic
> > >or that, this author or that, though de
gustibus
> non
> > >est disputandum.
> > >
> > >What do you think?
> > >
> > >Best,
> > >
> > >Dan
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From bardo  Sun Sep  9 17:33:46 2001
From: bardo (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 17:33:46 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why do we read, anyway?
References: <200109091829.f89ITJp67437@mx2.mx.voyager.net>
 <000701c1396d$01035a60$ef7dbd18@win98> <002901c13976$0e9bcbe0$ef7dbd18@win98>
Message-ID: <003501c13977$1b855960$ef7dbd18@win98>

Check: 39,000,000!!!!

Now my email has started to sabotage me!

Dan

----- Original Message -----
From: Daniel Zimmerman <bardo at optonline.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 5:26 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why do we read, anyway?


> Doh! (Good thing that term has found its way
> into the OED. I really need it!)
>
> BookWeb gives its figures in 000s!
> 39,000, books in that category of
> Art/Literature/Poetry sold in '99!
> (I just went back and had another
> look--I couldn't believe the number, either).
>
> I would like to know about the number of poetry
> books
> sold, but we have so many small presses that I
> wonder
> if anyone even compiles that statistic.
>
> --Dan
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Daniel Zimmerman <bardo at optonline.net>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 4:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why do we read, anyway?
>
>
> > David,
> >
> > The figure of 39,000 seems very low; perhaps
> BookWeb
> > presents only a (let's hope representative)
sample
> > of total sales in that category from major
> > publishers, though even then the figure seems
> bogus.
> > I couldn't find anything on poetry book sales in
> > particular, but see also the articles from which
> > I've excerpted the following:
> >
> >
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > Reading, Voice, Publication
> > 'Poetry and the American People' Symposium
> > BY DONNA URSCHEL
> > May 2000
> > http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/0005/poetsymp.html
> > .
> > Mr. [Jack] Shoemaker, the last panelist to
speak,
> > provided a historical context to the last 40
years
> > of poetry publishing. In the '60s and early
'70s,
> > there was a golden age of poetry publishing,
> because
> > of a proliferation of small- press magazines. In
> the
> > late '70s and the '80s, the poetry market was
> > abysmal. "Poetry sales plummeted, the small
press
> > disappeared; there was a crisis in publishing,"
he
> > said.
> > ==================================
> >
> > The University of Arizona Poetry Center
> > Poetry Center Newsletter
> > Vol. 21, #1, Fall 1996
> > http://www.coh.arizona.edu/poetry/nwsfl96.html
> > .
> > National Poetry Month Last April was the first
> > National Poetry Month. The Academy of American
> Poets
> > launched the effort with a goal of broadening
the
> > audience for poetry. In its July 29 issue,
> > Publishers Weekly reported that, according to a
> > follow-up survey conducted by the Academy,
> > booksellers experienced
> > substantial increases in sales of poetry titles.
> > Recent titles, prize-winning collections and
> > collections advertised in conjunction with
> National
> > Poetry Month sold well, as
> > did core backlist titles by such classic authors
> as
> > Dickinson, Whitman and Yeats. Poetry-on-cassette
> > sales quadrupled from the previous month. Barnes
&
> > Noble
> > showed an average increase of 25%; for titles
> > specifically promoted during NPM, increases
ranged
> > from 50% to 100%. Prairie Lights Books in Iowa
> City
> > saw a
> > "substantial increase" in poetry sales, and the
> UCLA
> > Bookstore reported an increase of "at least
600%,"
> > with $3500 in poetry sales in the first week of
> > April alone.
> > The Academy plans a second NPM in April 1997.
> > ===================================
> >
> > SLAM: Modern-day troubadours contribute to the
> > growth of poetry
> > sales, both in written form and oral recordings
> > Venise Wagner, OF THE [EXAMINER STAFF
> > Friday, April 21, 2000
> >
>
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/exam
> > iner/archive/2000/04/21/BUSINESS2572.dtl
> > .
> > Brent Cunningham, sales and marketing manager at
> > Small Press Distribution in Berkeley, which
> > specializes in distributing poetry books, said
his
> > company's 1998 sales grew 40 percent from the
> > previous year and another 10 percent in 1999.
> Sales
> > for the first quarter of this year are up 25 to
30
> > percent over the same period last year.
> >
> >
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Dan
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: David Graham <grahamd at mail.ripon.edu>
> > To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > Sent: Sunday, September 09, 2001 2:28 PM
> > Subject: [New-Poetry] Why do we read, anyway?
> >
> >
> > > Very interesting statistics.  Is poetry broken
> out
> > anywhere, do you know,
> > > from the broader category of
> > Art/Literature/Poetry?  If 39,000 "units" of
> > > adult Art/Lit/Poetry books were sold in 1998,
> how
> > many were books of poetry?
> > >  I'd be especially interested in seeing what
the
> > trends were over the past
> > > 10 years or so.  I've often heard the figure
> 1000
> > tossed out as the rough
> > > number of new books of poetry published in the
> US
> > each year.  Wonder if that
> > > figure is accurate, whether it is holding
steady
> > or not, and what percentage
> > > of the print runs actually are sold.  (And, of
> > course, what the total number
> > > of books printed might be.)
> > >
> > > Somehow, even a million books sold per year
does
> > not sound like much,
> > > compared against the total US population.
Does
> > this mean that fewer than 1
> > > in 200 adults commonly buy a book in a given
> year?
> > >
> > > Are library purchases and books purchased as
> > course texts figured into these
> > > numbers, or just individual personal
> consumption?
> > Certainly one would have
> > > to factor those things in, and readership
> figures
> > would naturally be much
> > > higher than purchase figures in any case.
> > >
> > > David Graham
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________
> > > David Graham
> > > grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> > > _______________________
> > >
> > > ----------
> > > >From: Daniel Zimmerman <bardo at optonline.net>
> > > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why do we read,
> anyway?
> > > >Date: Sun, Sep 9, 2001, 7:56 AM
> > > >
> > >
> > > >Amber,
> > > >
> > > >Have a look at this page of demographics from
> > > >BookWeb:
> > >
>http://www.bookweb.org/research/stats/387.html
> > > >
> > > >It shows that in the '90s, about half of
books
> > sold
> > > >comprised popular fiction, with cooking
taking
> > > >another 10 percent. Art/Literature/Poetry
> dropped
> > > >from 4.7 to 3.9 percent.
> > > >
> > > >Figures like these show what people read.
Your
> > > >question--why they read what they do--may
prove
> > more
> > > >difficult to answer.
> > > >
> > > >Rothstein mentions Prof. Roth's book on the
> > British
> > > >working classes' reading habits. Most of his
> > > >research focuses on a period before modern
> media,
> > > >and during an era of smug superiority in the
> > British
> > > >Empire when self-improvement (mainly of a
> > spiritual
> > > >kind, since social mobility remained limited)
> by
> > > >reading offered one of the few forms of
> > diversion.
> > > >Intellectuals like T. H. Huxley gave series
of
> > > >lectures to workers to supplement their
> efforts.
> > > >
> > > >Today, self-improvement focuses more on the
> > physical
> > > >and economic: how to get tight abs, how to
> avoid
> > > >divorce, how to raise kids while eviscerating
> an
> > > >attacker with a keychain--much of that advice
> > > >available on videotape or through the endless
> > social
> > > >programs of the Aquarian age. Besides, Brits
> > > >populated Britain; America, in its desperate
> > > >diversity, has moved increasingly toward what
> > Robert
> > > >Bly called 'small colonies of the saved.'
> > > >
> > > >Rothstein does point to a central paradox in
> > > >American life: lip service to egalitarianism
> > > >combined with a fierce determination to have
> only
> >
> > > >the best. For some, the best means the most
> > popular;
> > > >to same, the most expensive; to some, the
most
> > > >efficient--for most, it means better than the
> > next
> > > >guy's stuff. And if the next guy can afford a
> > > >pricier toy, one can always retreat into
> > > >identification with the most popular toy
among
> > one's
> > > >own group, and claim its superiority on the
> basis
> > of
> > > >who owns or uses it, rather than on the basis
> of
> > any
> > > >intrinsic value it might possess.
> > > >Some interesting speculation might arise
about
> > how
> > > >this affects the motivations for reading this
> > topic
> > > >or that, this author or that, though de
> gustibus
> > non
> > > >est disputandum.
> > > >
> > > >What do you think?
> > > >
> > > >Best,
> > > >
> > > >Dan
> > >
> > >
_______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > >
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From adead_poet  Sun Sep  9 19:24:41 2001
From: adead_poet (dead poet)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 18:24:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] eliot
Message-ID: <F211f3L9BGTuAyHsjCG0000bf44@hotmail.com>

eliot's poem "The Hippopotamus" has something written in latin or something, 
and i can't find a translation for it. could anyone help me out here?

"Similiter et omnes revereantur Diaconos, ut mandatum Jesu Christi; et 
Episcopum, ut Jesum Christum, existentem filium Patris; Presbyteros autem, 
ut concilium Dei et conjunctionem Apostolorum. Sine his Ecclesia non 
vocatur; de quibus suadeo vos sic habeo.
									S. Ignatii Ad Trallianos."

thanks,
jason

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From dweinsto  Mon Sep 10 08:48:19 2001
From: dweinsto (David Weinstock)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 08:48:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] eliot
In-Reply-To: <F211f3L9BGTuAyHsjCG0000bf44@hotmail.com>
References: <F211f3L9BGTuAyHsjCG0000bf44@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <942500791.20010910084819@adelphia.net>

Jason et al:

found on the Web:

The first epigraph belongs to St. Ignatius of Antioch (died ca. 110), one of the early fathers of
the church who defined doctrine and heresy. Eliot quotes from his epistle to the Turkish city of
Tralles. See "Ignatius to the Trallians," III.1-2, in The Apostolic Fathers, with a translation by
Kirsopp Lake (London: William Heinemann, 1919), I, 215: 

     Likewise let all respect the deacons as Jesus Christ, even as the bishop is also a type of
     the Father, and the presbyters as the Council of God and the college of Apostles.
     Without these the name of "Church" is not given. I am confident that you accept this. 

     The second epigraph comes from Colossians 4.16, where Paul urges the churches in Laodicea
to read his address aloud in public. 

Hope this helps--

David




From rlong  Mon Sep 10 09:33:13 2001
From: rlong (Richard Long)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 08:33:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] 6.1 (Fall 2001) Issue of The 2River View
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010910083248.00a7e5a0@pop3.slu.edu>

2River released today the 6.1 (Fall 2001) issue of THE 2RIVER VIEW, with 
new poems by Wendy Taylor Carlisle, Laura Hartman, Romana Iorga, Elizabeth 
Knapp, Ann Neuser Lederer, Walt McDonald, Mark Melton, Allan Peterson, 
Matthew Schmeer, and Leonore Wilson, and art by David Zvanut. You can read 
it online or download a PDF by going to

	http://www.2River.org

Also, beginning November 1, 2River will begin litter pick-up along a 
stretch of adopted HWY E in Jefferson County as part of Missouri's 
Adopt-A-Highway program. The remote 2-mile stretch of highway is a highly 
unlikely spot for a sign that says Poetry, Art, Theory. Look for a picture 
of it in mid November.

Since 1996, 2River has been a site of poetry, art, and theory, quarterly 
publishing The 2River View and occasionally publishing individual authors 
in the 2River Chapbook Series.

Richard Long

======
2River
rlong at 2River.org
http://www.2River.org 




From paul.lake  Sun Sep  9 22:31:20 2001
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2001 21:31:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Suarez
Message-ID: <B7C19028.1B61%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

"I had a chance to see Gaylord Brewer and Virgil Suarez read last night.
Both 
were personable, nice people and rather good poets.

Anyone ever hear of these two cats?"



Yeah, Jeffery, I reviewed an interview anthology edited by Suarez for the
Arkansas Review recently.  The review is below.

Paul Lake





Southbound: Interviews with Southern Poets
by Ernest Suarez, with T. W. Stanford III and Amy Verner
University of Missouri Press


     Reading the eleven interviews of Southbound: Interviews with Southern
Poets makes one wish that the writer interview hadn?t supplanted the
critical essay as a literary form. Readers would be better served by hearing
an informed critic appraise Charles Wright?s poetry than by hearing the poet
list his favorite movies or explain why his poetry displays an ?upward
movement.? Though Suarez and his collaborators have done a competent job of
interviewing, the book is limited by its genre.

      The book also suffers from a further constraint. Though it purports to
be a general survey of Southern poets, the poets are confined for the most
part to a mutual admiration society comprised of Charles Wright, Dave Smith,
and their friends and former students: Ellen Bryant Voight, David Bottoms,
T. R. Hummer, Yusef Komunyakaa, Betty Adcock, Rodney Jones, Jim Seay, and
Kate Daniels. Stylistically, the poets (except for early Dickey) are
primarily writers of free verse. Missing from the list are Southern
formalists such as Fred Chappell, R. S. Gwynn, Jack Butler, Andrew Hudgins,
and Michael McFee, to name a few.

     Most of the poets in the book list Warren and Dickey as key influences
on their work; the next most frequently cited are two Yankees, Robert Bly
and James Wright--that is, the Bly-influenced Deep Imagist Wright of later
years. The genealogy of this group of poets is perhaps exemplified by David
Bottom?s tale of being driven by Dave Smith to Warren?s house to meet the
elder poet. Unfortunately, what too many of these poets took from Warren was
a tendency toward prolixity and diffusion. Kate Daniels admired Warren?s ?.
. . lack of compression, the grandiosity of syntax . . . .? Rodney Jones was
affected by ? . . . the disjunctive Warren . . . that James Wright describes
as a stutterer . . . .?

      As might be expected in a book about Southern poets, most comment on
how narrative and music, particularly jazz and gospel, have affected their
poetry.  Though sometimes self-congratulatory and rambling (Charles Wright?s
comments are nearly as opaque as his verse), the poets sometimes speak
eloquently about their lives and writing. Betty Adcock condemns the ?turgid
and awful? prose of contemporary critical theory, and James Dickey utters a
paean to the abiding power of the Logos.

     Another common thread is the centrality of feeling in the poets? work.
Once again Charles Wright sets the pattern, remarking: ?Reason in itself, in
my poetry . . . holds no interest for me. Emotion is everything.? This
commitment to feeling reveals the group?s underlying Romanticism. Poe was
cited by more than one poet as an early love. Too rarely have the poets in
this volume emulated the Metaphysical poets, who, in T. S. Eliot?s memorable
formulation, could effect ?a direct sensuous apprehension of thought, or a
recreation of thought into feeling?; like Tennyson and Browning, whose
influence filters down to them through Warren and Dickey, they too rarely
?feel their thought immediately as the odour of a rose? or make it
apprehensible to the reader. Instead, the loose and baggy form of the
interview reflects all too well the texture of their thought and verse.



   




From Edward.Byrne  Mon Sep 10 10:30:40 2001
From: Edward.Byrne (Edward Byrne)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 09:30:40 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Suarez
In-Reply-To: <B7C19028.1B61%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <SIMEON.10109100940.B@muahost.valpo.edu>

Just want to jump in for a moment to point out that it appears 
poet-novelist-memoirist Virgil Suarez is being confused here with 
Ernest Suarez, who writes about Southern literature and is a James 
Dickey scholar.  By the way, Virgil Suarez will be the featured poet in 
the Fall issue of the journal I edit, _Valparaiso Poetry Review_, which 
will include some of his poems and an extended interview.  The issue 
will be released in two weeks and its website is at the following: 
http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/ 

--Edward Byrne

> 
> "I had a chance to see Gaylord Brewer and Virgil Suarez read last night.
> Both 
> were personable, nice people and rather good poets.
> 
> Anyone ever hear of these two cats?"
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, Jeffery, I reviewed an interview anthology edited by Suarez for 
> the Arkansas Review recently.  The review is below.
> 
> Paul Lake
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Southbound: Interviews with Southern Poets
> by Ernest Suarez, with T. W. Stanford III and Amy Verner
> University of Missouri Press
> 
> 
>      Reading the eleven interviews of Southbound: Interviews with 
> Southern Poets makes one wish that the writer interview hadn?t 
> supplanted the critical essay as a literary form. Readers would be 
> better served by hearing an informed critic appraise Charles Wright?s 
> poetry than by hearing the poet list his favorite movies or explain why 
> his poetry displays an ?upward movement.? Though Suarez and his 
> collaborators have done a competent job of interviewing, the book is 
> limited by its genre.
> 
>       The book also suffers from a further constraint. Though it 
> purports to be a general survey of Southern poets, the poets are 
> confined for the most part to a mutual admiration society comprised of 
> Charles Wright, Dave Smith, and their friends and former students: 
> Ellen Bryant Voight, David Bottoms, T. R. Hummer, Yusef Komunyakaa, 
> Betty Adcock, Rodney Jones, Jim Seay, and Kate Daniels. Stylistically, 
> the poets (except for early Dickey) are primarily writers of free 
> verse. Missing from the list are Southern formalists such as Fred 
> Chappell, R. S. Gwynn, Jack Butler, Andrew Hudgins, and Michael McFee, 
> to name a few.
> 
>      Most of the poets in the book list Warren and Dickey as key 
> influences on their work; the next most frequently cited are two 
> Yankees, Robert Bly and James Wright--that is, the Bly-influenced Deep 
> Imagist Wright of later years. The genealogy of this group of poets is 
> perhaps exemplified by David Bottom?s tale of being driven by Dave 
> Smith to Warren?s house to meet the elder poet. Unfortunately, what too 
> many of these poets took from Warren was a tendency toward prolixity 
> and diffusion. Kate Daniels admired Warren?s ?. . . lack of 
> compression, the grandiosity of syntax . . . .? Rodney Jones 
> was affected by ? . . . the disjunctive Warren . . . that James Wright 
> describes as a stutterer . . . .?
> 
>       As might be expected in a book about Southern poets, most comment 
> on how narrative and music, particularly jazz and gospel, have affected 
> their poetry.  Though sometimes self-congratulatory and rambling 
> (Charles Wright?s comments are nearly as opaque as his verse), the 
> poets sometimes speak eloquently about their lives and writing. Betty 
> Adcock condemns the ?turgid and awful? prose of contemporary critical 
> theory, and James Dickey utters a paean to the abiding power of the 
> Logos.
> 
>      Another common thread is the centrality of feeling in the poets? 
> work. Once again Charles Wright sets the pattern, remarking: ?Reason in 
> itself, in my poetry . . . holds no interest for me. Emotion is 
> everything.? This commitment to feeling reveals the group?s underlying 
> Romanticism. Poe was cited by more than one poet as an early love. Too 
> rarely have the poets in this volume emulated the Metaphysical poets, 
> who, in T. S. Eliot?s memorable formulation, could effect ?a direct 
> sensuous apprehension of thought, or a recreation of thought into 
> feeling?; like Tennyson and Browning, whose influence filters down to 
> them through Warren and Dickey, they too rarely ?feel their thought 
> immediately as the odour of a rose? or make it apprehensible to the 
> reader. Instead, the loose and baggy form of the interview reflects all 
> too well the texture of their thought and verse.
> 


--------------------------------------------------

Edward Byrne
Department of English
322 Huegli Hall
Valparaiso University
Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493

E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu
http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/

Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu
http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/
Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
Fax: (219) 464-5511

--------------------------------------------------




From loucks.1  Mon Sep 10 11:35:34 2001
From: loucks.1 (james loucks)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:35:34 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] eliot
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.20010910103534.006df948@pop.service.ohio-state.edu>

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From Edward.Byrne  Mon Sep 10 10:41:04 2001
From: Edward.Byrne (Edward Byrne)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 09:41:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Suarez
In-Reply-To: <B7C19028.1B61%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <SIMEON.10109100904.C@muahost.valpo.edu>

If you are looking for a critical appraisal of Charles Wright's poetry, 
I invite you to check out my article at the following:
 
http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/byrnereviewwright.html 

--Edward Byrne

>      Reading the eleven interviews of Southbound: Interviews with 
> Southern Poets makes one wish that the writer interview hadn?t 
> supplanted the critical essay as a literary form. Readers would be 
> better served by hearing an informed critic appraise Charles Wright?s 
> poetry than by hearing the poet list his favorite movies or explain why 
> his poetry displays an ?upward movement.? 


--------------------------------------------------

Edward Byrne
Department of English
322 Huegli Hall
Valparaiso University
Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493

E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu
http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/

Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu
http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/
Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
Fax: (219) 464-5511

--------------------------------------------------




From duemer  Mon Sep 10 11:00:34 2001
From: duemer (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 11:00:34 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Chas Wright
References: <B7C19028.1B61%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <00a001c13a09$588ae9a0$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

Have to agree with Paul Lake on his evaluation of Charles Wright; though I
have friends who love his work & claim to be influenced by it, this is a
reputation I have never understood. I find the stuff impenetrable.

jd
======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
======================








From JforJames  Mon Sep 10 16:18:49 2001
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:18:49 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Honor Moore
Message-ID: <7d.1ab68202.28ce7a29@aol.com>

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/nyt/20010910/en/overcome_by_intensity_redeemed_by

_effort_1.html

nice piece by Honor Moore in the NYT
about artistic frustration & breakthrough.
Finnegan



From gmcvay  Mon Sep 10 16:31:45 2001
From: gmcvay (Gwyn McVay)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:31:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Honor Moore
In-Reply-To: <7d.1ab68202.28ce7a29@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0109101630461.3280-100000@adams.patriot.net>

Somebody must say this, so I will be the one:

I could but love thee less, my dear,
Loved I not Honor Moore.


Gwyn




From Rsgwynn1  Mon Sep 10 16:58:51 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 16:58:51 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Honor Moore
Message-ID: <116.463ed38.28ce838b@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/10/2001 3:33:06 PM Central Daylight Time, 
gmcvay at patriot.net writes:


> Somebody must say this, so I will be the one:
> 
> I could but love thee less, my dear,
> Loved I not Honor Moore.
> 
> 
> Gwyn
> 

And she was great in that James Bond movie too.
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From Rsgwynn1  Mon Sep 10 17:01:01 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 17:01:01 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Honor Moore
Message-ID: <94.19a875bb.28ce840d@cs.com>

Oops, it was Honor Blackmon.
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From CobbCoStudioArts  Mon Sep 10 17:23:35 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 14:23:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Honor Moore
Message-ID: <20010910212336.15EDC2756@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From dzauhar  Mon Sep 10 19:57:24 2001
From: dzauhar (David Zauhar)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 18:57:24 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gaylord Brewer/Virgil Suarez
In-Reply-To: <168.7e91d0.28caa00f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.10.10109101854230.41540-100000@tigger.cc.uic.edu>

Gaylord Brewer has written the Twayne book on Charles Bukowski. I was
supposed to be on a panel with him once, but it fell through so I couldn't
ask him if he's a relative of a long-ago retired PGA golfer named Gay
Brewer.  Virgil Suarez is, for may money, a better prose writer than a
poet. He also tells me we were office-mates at LSU in the late-80s, but I
remember us being neighbors (but he's the published memoirist, so I defer
to his recollection.

David Zauhar
University of Illinois at Chicago

"i have a city to cover with lines"
 		
		--d.a. levy

On Fri, 7 Sep 2001 JackKerouac25 at aol.com wrote:

> I had a chance to see Gaylord Brewer and Virgil Suarez read last night.  Both 
> were personable, nice people and rather good poets.
> 
> Anyone ever hear of these two cats?
> 
> I'll post more when this monstrous pile of freshman essays shrinks somewhat.
> 
> 
> Jeffrey L. Newberry
> Adjunct Instructor
> Department of English and Foreign Languages
> University of West Florida
> 11000 University Parkway
> Pensacola, FL  32514
> 850.474.2923
> 850.473.7330
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From dzauhar  Mon Sep 10 19:59:56 2001
From: dzauhar (David Zauhar)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 18:59:56 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Gaylord Brewer/Virgil Suarez
In-Reply-To: <168.7e91d0.28caa00f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.A41.4.10.10109101859090.41540-100000@tigger.cc.uic.edu>

Oh: Suarez has an MFA from LSU. He teaches at Florida with David Kirby
(whose father was a legendary medievalist at LSU).

David Zauhar
University of Illinois at Chicago

"i have a city to cover with lines"
 		
		--d.a. levy





From grahamd  Mon Sep 10 21:35:59 2001
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 20:35:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Chas Wright
Message-ID: <200109110137.f8B1bHV53144@mx4.mx.voyager.net>

I find Charles Wright's poetry highly uneven in a number of ways, myself. 
And though I don't love it all, I do like a good deal of it.

But impenetrable is only one of his modes, isn't it?  Plenty of his poems
are downright accessible, seems to me.  And even at his most vaporous, I
find him no more opaque than, say, recent Jorie Graham.

Here's what I would call an accessible Wright poem, from *The Southern
Cross* (1981).  



Gate City Breakdown

Like a vein of hard coal, it was the strike
We fantasized, the pocket of sure reward we sidestepped the roadblocks for
In Southwest Virginia, seamed in its hillside
Above the north fork of the Holstun River.

One afternoon before Christmas
In 1953, we crossed the bridge from Tennessee on a whiskey run,
Churchill and Bevo Hammond and Philbeck and I,
All home for the holidays,
On the back road where they chased us, we left the Sheriff's Patrol in their
own dust,
And washed ours down with Schlitz on the way home.

Jesus, it's so ridiculous, and full of self-love,
The way we remember ourselves,
                                                                and the dust
we leave . . .

Remember me as you will, but remember me once
Slide-wheeling around the curves,
                              letting it out on the other side of the line.
--Charles Wright

_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________

----------
>From: "Joseph Duemer" <duemer at clarkson.edu>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Chas Wright
>Date: Mon, Sep 10, 2001, 10:00 AM
>

>Have to agree with Paul Lake on his evaluation of Charles Wright; though I
>have friends who love his work & claim to be influenced by it, this is a
>reputation I have never understood. I find the stuff impenetrable.
>
>jd
>======================
>Joseph Duemer
>School of Liberal Arts, 5750
>Clarkson University
>Potsdam NY 13699
>315.268.3967
>======================



From TerryP17  Tue Sep 11 12:43:36 2001
From: TerryP17 (TerryP17 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 12:43:36 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pearl Harbor II
Message-ID: <fc.bfa08ba.28cf9938@aol.com>

All--

Hate to interrupt things, but I'm sitting here at my office window watching huge clouds of black smoke billow from the Pentagon, which took a direct hit from a hijacked airliner and where I have a few co-workers unaccounted for at the moment. Meanwhile, I would guess that tens of thousands of New Yorkers are no longer with us as the twin World Trade Center Towers were destroyed by more hijacked airliners. Still another plane went down south of Pittsburgh, all with loss of life. I hope we'll all take a moment today to remember those who've obviously lost their lives to an act of fantastically senseless and useless violence that, I think, will eclipse the enormity of Pearl Harbor in US history. 

--Terry Ponick



From alphavil  Tue Sep 11 13:10:23 2001
From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:10:23 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Senseless?
References: <fc.bfa08ba.28cf9938@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3B9E457F.E57AEAE4@ix.netcom.com>

"Few of us can easily surrender our belief that society must somehow make sense. The
     thought that The State has lost its mind and is punishing so many innocent people is
     intolerable. And so the evidence has to be internally denied."

                                                                          ? Arthur Miller
                                                                                 playwright


                              Chronology of
             American State Terrorism


     U.S. State Department Policy Planning Study #23, 1948:

          "Our real task in the coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships which will
          permit us to maintain this position of disparity [U.S. military-economic
          supremacy].... To do so, we will have to dispense with all sentimentality and
          day-dreaming.... We should cease to talk about vague and...unreal objectives such
          as human rights, the raising of the living standards, and democratization. The day is
          not far off when we are going to have to deal in straight power concepts. The less
          we are then hampered by idealistic slogans, the better."

                                                                    ? George Kennan
                                                                  Director of Policy Planning
                                                                     U.S. State Department
                                                                                 1948



     The following collection of relatively brief entries is divided into three pages. Each page has the
     full list near the top so you can jump around from entry to entry between pages.

     This list of nations represents literally millions of human beings all over the world who have
     been brutally murdered ? directly by the United States government/military or by its obediant
     proxies. Huge though the list is, there is yet more to add. It does, however, contain the most
     well-known campaigns of American state terrorism, genocide and subversion ? all of which
     are in the historical record for the whole world to see. God only knows what evil the U.S.
     government and military have committed that remains hidden.

     And as long as the United States remains a military power the list of state terror victims will
     keep growing.


          Page One:


          Palestine
          1948-Present

          Colombia
          1960s-Present

          Iraq
          1991-Present

          Yugoslavia
          1992-Present

          Congo/Zaire
          1961-Present

          Cuba
          1959-Present

          Guatemala
          1953-Present

          El Salvador
          1980-Present

          East Timor
          1975-1999

          Haiti
          1987-1994

          Somalia
          1993

          Afghanistan
          1979-1992

          Nicaragua
          1981-1990

          Panama
          1989
                                    Page Two:


                                    Libya
                                    1981-1989

                                    Iran
                                    1988

                                    Grenada
                                    1979-1984

                                    Greece
                                    1964-1974

                                    Chile
                                    1964-1973

                                    Costa Rica
                                    Mid-1950s, 1970-71

                                    Dominican Republic
                                    1963-1966

                                    Vietnam
                                    1945-1974

                                    Cambodia
                                    1955-1973

                                    Laos
                                    1957-1973

                                    Thailand
                                    1965-1973

                                    Italy
                                    1947-1970s

                                    Indonesia
                                    1965

                                    Brazil
                                    1961-1964

                                    British Guiana/Guyana
                                    1953-1964

                                    Iraq
                                    1963
                                                               Page Three:


                                                               Soviet Union
                                                               1940s-1960s

                                                               Western Europe
                                                               1950s-1960s

                                                               Haiti
                                                               1959

                                                               Indonesia
                                                               1957-1958

                                                               Middle East
                                                               1956-1958

                                                               Iran
                                                               1953

                                                               Germany, Italy, Europe
                                                               1950s

                                                               Eastern Europe
                                                               1948-1956

                                                               Albania
                                                               1949-1953

                                                               Korea
                                                               1945-1953

                                                               Philippines
                                                               1945-1953

                                                               Greece
                                                               1947-1949

                                                               Marshall Islands
                                                               1946-1958

                                                               Italy
                                                               1947-1948

                                                               France
                                                               1947

                                                               China
                                                               1945-1951

                                                               Hiroshima & Nagasaki
                                                               August 1945

                                                               Japan, Germany,
                                                               France
                                                               1942-1945

                                                               Around the world
                                                               1900-1930s

                                                               Philippines
                                                               1899-1902

                                                               America and Africa
                                                               1607-1890












From tadrichards  Tue Sep 11 13:14:11 2001
From: tadrichards (theoldmole)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 13:14:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pearl Harbor II
References: <fc.bfa08ba.28cf9938@aol.com>
Message-ID: <037601c13ae5$2d9bedc0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

Poet Linda Lerner lives a few blocks from the World Trade Center. I hope
she's all right. And, of course, my hopes and thoughts for all the victims
of this horror.


  Tad Richards                       "Well said, old mole."
    The Old Mole                         Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet
    of the MoleNet                          Act I, Scene 5
          http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
----- Original Message -----
From: <TerryP17 at aol.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2001 12:43 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pearl Harbor II


> All--
>
> Hate to interrupt things, but I'm sitting here at my office window
watching huge clouds of black smoke billow from the Pentagon, which took a
direct hit from a hijacked airliner and where I have a few co-workers
unaccounted for at the moment. Meanwhile, I would guess that tens of
thousands of New Yorkers are no longer with us as the twin World Trade
Center Towers were destroyed by more hijacked airliners. Still another plane
went down south of Pittsburgh, all with loss of life. I hope we'll all take
a moment today to remember those who've obviously lost their lives to an act
of fantastically senseless and useless violence that, I think, will eclipse
the enormity of Pearl Harbor in US history.
>
> --Terry Ponick
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From MillB  Tue Sep 11 14:59:22 2001
From: MillB (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 14:59:22 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: WW III
Message-ID: <6e.fca3224.28cfb90a@aol.com>

I got up at 5:00am today, to finish reading Hayden Caruth's Beside the 
Shadblow Tree and a few hours later, I heard these women in the alley talking 
about the Pentagon and the World Trade Center in NY. . .I yelled out the 
window. . .and then turned on the television to find what seemed like a 
B-movie. . .smoke enveloping the city of NY. . .I'm on a tech writing project 
in downtown Los Angeles right now, called in to say I couldn't make it. . .no 
one can make it; the city's closed. . .police are on alert, all flights are 
canceled, the broders from USA to Mexico are closed. . .baseball games are 
cancelled, concerts are cancelled. . .Disneyland, Knotts berry farm and 
Disneyworld are closed. . .the emmy's are postponed. . national guard called 
in.  I was living in Los Angeles during the LA Riots and was trapped in my 
building for five days, watching the Hall of records and the Children's 
Museum burn--it was nothing like this. I do not know what else to say--I've 
been trying to get ahold of the friends I have in NY, but the lines have been 
down for hours. . .



From msnider  Tue Sep 11 15:36:39 2001
From: msnider (Michael Snider)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 15:36:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Senseless?
In-Reply-To: <3B9E457F.E57AEAE4@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <200109111940.PAA14049@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

Go to hell.

On Tuesday, September 11, 2001, at 01:10 PM, R.Gancie/C.Parcelli wrote:
>
> unsufferable trash



From editor  Mon Sep 10 09:32:14 2001
From: editor (Richard Long)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 08:32:14 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] 6.1 (Fall 2001) Issue of The 2River View
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010910082959.00a7bec0@pop3.slu.edu>

2River released today the 6.1 (Fall 2001) issue of THE 2RIVER VIEW, with 
new poems by Wendy Taylor Carlisle, Laura Hartman, Romana Iorga, Elizabeth 
Knapp, Ann Neuser Lederer, Walt McDonald, Mark Melton, Allan Peterson, 
Matthew Schmeer, and Leonore Wilson, and art by David Zvanut. You can read 
it online or download a PDF by going to

	http://www.2River.org

Also, beginning November 1, 2River will begin litter pick-up along a 
stretch of adopted HWY E in Jefferson County as part of Missouri's 
Adopt-A-Highway program. The remote 2-mile stretch of highway is a highly 
unlikely spot for a sign that says Poetry, Art, Theory. Look for a picture 
of it in mid November.

Since 1996, 2River has been a site of poetry, art, and theory, quarterly 
publishing The 2River View and occasionally publishing individual authors 
in the 2River Chapbook Series.

Richard Long

======
2River
rlong at 2River.org
http://www.2River.org




From jloucks  Mon Sep 10 10:09:38 2001
From: jloucks (james loucks)
Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2001 10:09:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] eliot
In-Reply-To: <F211f3L9BGTuAyHsjCG0000bf44@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010910100754.00a025a0@pop3.norton.antivirus>

Check BC Southam's handbook or Grover Smith's book on TSE.

Jim

At 06:24 PM 9/9/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>eliot's poem "The Hippopotamus" has something written in latin or 
>something, and i can't find a translation for it. could anyone help me out 
>here?
>
>"Similiter et omnes revereantur Diaconos, ut mandatum Jesu Christi; et 
>Episcopum, ut Jesum Christum, existentem filium Patris; Presbyteros autem, 
>ut concilium Dei et conjunctionem Apostolorum. Sine his Ecclesia non 
>vocatur; de quibus suadeo vos sic habeo.
> 
>S. Ignatii Ad Trallianos."
>
>thanks,
>jason
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
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From halvard  Tue Sep 11 22:20:53 2001
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:20:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] WTC report
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEPPEAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

The first we knew of it this morning was when Ana Doina called from
New Jersey and asked Lynda if we were okay. Lynda (I think--I was
upstairs taking a shower, getting ready to go off to Newark for my
two Tuesday classes) said, "Sure, why? Who is this?" Ana said, "Look
out your window." And Lynda looked out and saw great billows of
smoke rising into the sky. Our windows on that side of the livingroom
look south, but the WLC is blocked from view by an arm of the building
we live in. At night, when we're going to bed we can see the skinny
communications tower at the very top of  . . . I guess it's WTC1. Just
that, and its warning lights--lights intended to warn off aircraft, strange
to say.

Most of the day, we sat transfixed by the images on the TV screen, one
or the other of us jumping up every now and then to check the billowing
mountain of smoke downtown. The first phone call was from Lynda's
mother in Florida.

It wasn't until a bit after 5:00 in the afternoon that we ventured out of
the apartment, first to go up to the roof about five floors above us. Waiting
for the elevator, we checked out the large window near it that until today 
had a clear view of the WTC in all but the foggiest, cloudiest weathers. Just 
smoke, today.A handful of people were up there, looking off to the south, 
where the smoke was still rising, and where a sudden rush of stronger billowing
may have betokened the collapse of Bldg. 7, which occurred, I think, about 
that time. 

It was warm and sunny on the roof. The late-afternoon sun was
sparkling on the Hudson, just across West Street from our building.
One of those gorgeous late-summer evenings--except for the
large smudge of smoke. I remembered living as a kid in an apartment
house at 7th Ave. and 14th St., where for a few weeks during WW2
we could lean out the dining room window and see the black smoke
rising from the French liner Normandy burning where it lay on its
side at its dock at the foot of 14th St.

There aren't many docks along the Hudson anymore. The riverfront
is becoming people space, with miles of pathways for joggers, and
skaters, and bikers. And there were a lot of them down there as
we looked down from the roof. Dog-walkers too. Yes, the dogs
still need to be walked here in New York.

So, we decided to go down and walk for a bit ourselves. West Street
is usually crowded with traffic, especially on weekdays, early in the
morning and in the late afternoon. It's what the West-side Highway
becomes here downtown. Today it was free of trucks, cars, taxis.
Police cars and emergency vehicles were almost all we saw. But in 
the park and along the pathways used by joggers and bikers--lots
of folks walking along, riding along, just standing or sitting staring
south. Some people heading uptown, a couple with face masks
hanging around their necks.

We got down to Pier 40, just below Morton Street before coming
to the police barrier, where two officers were turning people back.
A block or two below, lots of emergency vehicles, ambulances,
flashing lights, and beyond them the mountain of smoke where the
WTC had been until this morning. Against the darkness of the
smoke the white and green tower of the Woolworth Building 
seemed brighter and more elaborate than ever.

Coming back up, we walked along Hudson Street (what 8th Ave.
becomes south of Bleecker Street) and the scene was really
strange--almost no traffic, some of the sidestreets barricaded
(to secure the precinct house on W. 10th Street, a patrolman
told me). Shops (almost all dark, with their security gates down
and locked) were closed, as were most restaurants (all but a
couple Chinese places). Even the White Horse was closed.

At one point, a convoy of twenty ambulances went by, speeding
north, with wailing police cars fore and aft. The ambulances
I saw were from places as far away as Cherry Hill, New Jersey,
just east of Philly. When emergency vehicles weren't passing by,
the street had that eerie Sunday-morning sort of stillness to it.
What wasn't there was what we saw--the taxis, the trucks, the
twin towers (margarine sticks, I've enjoyed calling them) of the
WTC, the business as usual.

When we got home there were more phone calls and more TV.
We learned from Timo (Lynda's son in Chicago) that Zach and
Maggie had been heading this morning for Century 21, a big
store right across the street from the WTC, to get Maggie a 
pair of shoes. Later, Zach called again and told us that he and
Maggie had picked up people walking back into Brooklyn
from Manhattan and ferried them home in their car. Folks on
TV started wondering whether there wasn't some failure of
intelligence involved in all this. Duh, double-duh.

Hal     "That's the way the world goes,
            and it's not going well."
                         --Bertolt Brecht

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html





From grahamd  Tue Sep 11 23:27:53 2001
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2001 22:27:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Words in the Mourning Time
Message-ID: <200109120329.f8C3TdT42164@mx6.mx.voyager.net>

Running recurrently through my mind on this strange day has been Robert
Hayden's poem "Words in the Mourning Time."  Here are three sections.  


             

V.

*Oh, what a world we make,
oppressor and oppressed*.

Our world?
this violent ghetto, slum
of the spirit raging against itself.

We hate kill destroy
in the name of human good
our killing and our hate destroy.



VI.

Lord Riot
  naked
   in flaming clothes
cannibal ruler
  of anger's
   carousals
 sing hey nonny no
terror
 his tribute
  shriek of bloody glass
his praise
 sing wrathful sing vengeful
  sing hey nonny no
gigantic
 and laughing
   sniper on tower
I hate
 I destroy
   I am I am
 sing hey nonny no
 sing burn baby burn



VII.

*voice in the wilderness*

Know that love has chosen you
to live his crucial purposes.
Know that love has chosen you.

And will not pamper you nor spare;
demands obedience to all
the rigorous laws of risk,
does not pamper, will not spare.

Oh, master now love's instruments?
complex and not for the fearful,
simple and not for the foolish.
Master now love's instruments.

I who love you tell you this,
even as the pitiful killer waits for me,
I who love you tell you this.  

--Robert Hayden (fr. "Words in the Mourning Time"  1970)


_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________



From Henry_Gould  Wed Sep 12 09:01:25 2001
From: Henry_Gould (Henry Gould)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 09:01:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] behind the attacks?
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010912085641.00a95a90@postoffice.brown.edu>

On the NY Times website this morning (www.nytimes.com), if you click on the 
Reuters updates,
there's a perspective from Afghan opposition parties on who's behind the 
terrorism.  They
call it a "triangle" of Bin Laden, the Taliban, & Pakistan intelligence. I 
have no way of knowing
how much truth in their claims at this point, but it's a very interesting 
short article.

Henry
********************************************************
HG afloat:  www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html
www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark
    "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam




From TerryP17  Wed Sep 12 13:12:49 2001
From: TerryP17 (TerryP17 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:12:49 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Behind the Attacks?
Message-ID: <61.134f42e1.28d0f191@aol.com>

<<On the NY Times website this morning (www.nytimes.com), if you click on the 
Reuters updates,
there's a perspective from Afghan opposition parties on who's behind the 
terrorism.  They
call it a "triangle" of Bin Laden, the Taliban, & Pakistan intelligence. I 
have no way of knowing
how much truth in their claims at this point, but it's a very interesting 
short article.>>

This perspective is pretty much the way we are looking at this in DC now. There are also pieces of evidence surfacing that at least one of the terrorists was enrolled in a sophisticated private flight training center in Daytona Beach which actually has state-of-the-art simulators. Clearly, also some engineering knowledge came into these attacks, which were well-placed to weaken, by heat, the structures of the buildings, causing collapse and maximum, CNN-spectacular death to make fatwah fans cheer, which they did. All this stuff has the hallmarks of a Bin Laden operation, which could not have happened without government sponsorship and sophisticated intelligence. 

Meanwhile, down here, the Pentagon still smolders, but is actually operational, which is a good move, psychologically. We are only at chapter one of this epic poem.

--Terry Ponick



From alphavil  Wed Sep 12 17:20:05 2001
From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 17:20:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Behind the Attacks?
References: <61.134f42e1.28d0f191@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3B9FD184.61629EA8@ix.netcom.com>

http://www.bushnews.com/attack.htm







From duemer  Wed Sep 12 19:56:58 2001
From: duemer (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 19:56:58 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: from Lady Borton: URGENT: New "Gulf of Tonkin Resoltuion"
Message-ID: <004101c13be6$9c94d140$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

I have never before forwarded an email petition or appeal, but I break my own rule in this case. My friend Lady Borton has asked me to spread the word about this new American attack on Vietnam. Please take a few minutes to read these attachments & then act as your conscience dictates.

Joe
======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750 
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
====================== 




----- Original Message ----- 
From: Lady 
To: Esser, Andrea ; Erd, Wendy--Alaska ; Erd, Wendy & Peter Kauffman ; Erd, Wendy ; Eoloff, Andrea ; Englemann, Ted ; Emeny, Mary ; Elder, Dave ; Elder, BJ ; Eklof, Goran ; Eisenberg, Susan ; Ehrhart, Bill ; Eberhardt, Karen ; Durban, Pam ; Durban, Pam ; Duemer, Joseph ; Duemer, Joe ; Dreyer, Donna Jean ; deTray, Mary ; deFossard, Esta ; Daven ; Dangers, Xuyen ; Dangers, Skip 
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2001 7:34 PM
Subject: from Lady: URGENT: New "Gulf of Tonkin Resoltuion"


  
Dear friends,
In writing this, I am speaking only for myself. And, yes, you may forward this e-mail. 

My phone has been ringing constantly since 6:30 yesterday morning with condolence calls from Vietnamese friends concerned about the tragedies in New York and D.C. They have asked me to share their sympathy with you, their friends in the US.

I am writing now because I want to alert you to the next "Gulf of Tonkin Resolution." The "Viet Nam Human Rights Bill" (H.R.2833) has already passed the House, 410-1. Like the "Gulf of Tonkin Resolution" of 1964, H.R.2833 is based on findings that are exaggerated and in some cases even fictitious. These "findings" came from Vietnamese-American groups in North Carolina and southern California. The North Carolina groups include Vietnamese ethnic minorities who worked closely with the CIA in Viet Nam's Central Highlands during the war. 

The intent behind H.R.2833 is to start another war. It uses "human rights" and "democracy" to set ethnic group against ethnic group inside Viet Nam, to reopen the exodus of  "refugees" from Viet Nam, and to dampen the opening process many of us have worked for years to build. This proposed law fits with President Bush's appointment of Elliott Abrams (pled guilty during the Iran-Contra Scandal) to the National Security Council as Director for Human Rights, Democracy and International Cooperation.

Viet Nam has had peace only since 1989: Eleven years in modern memory. The Vietnamese don't want another war.I believe our lawmakers in Congress did NOT understand the hidden agenda behind this proposed law when they voted 410-1. Now, the bill will go to the Senate. The bill's advocates will move fast. Please, do everything you can to stop H.R.2833.

Here's are two steps you can take to help:

1. Educate yourself. 

A. Read the text of H.R.2833 attached. Note the tone of the "findings." Note the implementation specifics and the appropriations. If you're short on time, read the last two pages-implementation. To track H.R.2833, use this website: http://thomas.loc.gov Note that there is no www. Search "H.R.2833." Use  periods but no spaces.

B. Read the two pages attached on the "Gulf of Tonkin Resolution," which granted "permission" for the US war in Viet Nam.

C. Open: http://www.namebase.org  Use the PROXIMITY SEARCH to locate "Burghardt, Raymond" (President Bush's nominee for US ambassador to Viet Nam) and "Abrams, Elliott" (already appointed to the National Security Council as Director for Human Rights, Democracy and International Cooperation). You will find that the closest name in the social contacts chart for each of these men is Oliver North. Bear in mind that appointments to the National Security Council do not need Senate approval. Implementation of this law, if it is passed, will be overseen by Elliott Abrams. 

D. Read the attached chapter on Elliot Abrams from the Walsh Report of the Iran-Contra investigation. If you have time, read the whole report. You can download it at http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/walsh I have also attached Part VIII describing the US Defense Department and have highlighted the name of Collin Powell, now Secretary of State. 
2. Get active. 

We do not have much time. The forces pushing for this law are highly organized, well funded, moving fast and counting that those wishing for continued peace in Viet Nam will continue to sleep. Please contact your senator. You can find her or his e-mail at: http://www.webslingerz.com/jhoffman/congress-email.html Note the "z" in "webslingerz" Please urge your friends and colleagues and networks to move quickly and do the same.

* * *

Yesterday I went to see Dr. Le Cao Dai, Viet Nam's key activist for people suffering the effects of toxic chemicals left from the US war. Dr. Dai is in his early seventies. Two months ago, he had a stroke that left him speechless and paralyzed on one side. He had just visited another toxic dump when, as he said, laughing, "I got stroked and couldn't say anything!" He's home now, walking again and talking, and more active than ever. 

"This is what I learned from my illness," Dr. Dai said. "What you can do today, don't do tomorrow."

I know you're sleeping now. May you rest well and awaken refreshed. But please do not stay asleep! Your Vietnamese friends are deeply distressed by what they describe as the "bombings" in America. They send their sympathies. They hope you can rise from your grief and shock and care for Americans who are suffering. They also hope you can find time and space within your shock and grief to respond to this need. Please do. The solution -- prevention of further strife -- lies with you dear friends in the US.

Warmly, 

Lady 


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From grahamd  Wed Sep 12 22:52:23 2001
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 21:52:23 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nesting
Message-ID: <200109130252.f8D2qhE58519@mx12.mx.voyager.net>

Another poem that's been haunting me today as I looked at photos of the
carnage from yesterday.


The Stare's Nest by My Window

The bees build in the crevices
Of loosening masonry, and there
The mother birds bring grubs and flies.
My wall is loosening; honey-bees,
Come build in the empty house of the stare.

We are closed in, and the key is turned
On our uncertainty; somewhere
A man is killed or a house burned,
Yet no clear fact to be discerned:
Come build in the empty house of the stare.

A barricade of stone or of wood;
Some fourteen days of civil war;
Last night they trundled down the road
That dead young soldier in his blood:
Come build in the empty nest of the stare.

We have fed the heart on fantasies,
The heart's grown brutal from the fare,
More substance in our enmities
Than in our love; O honey-bees,
Come build in the empty house of the stare.

      William Butler Yeats.  fr. "Meditations in Time of Civil War," vi.
(1928)

_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________



From mackechnie  Wed Sep 12 23:01:19 2001
From: mackechnie (Russ MacKechnie)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 23:01:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Nesting
In-Reply-To: <200109130252.f8D2qhE58519@mx12.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <LNBBLKJNOGEECDCCBGHNGEMFCNAA.mackechnie@email.msn.com>

David Graham writes:

> Another poem that's been haunting me today as I looked at
> photos of the
> carnage from yesterday.
>
>
> The Stare's Nest by My Window

	I would suggest a more appropriate poem, David, from Wallace Stevens's
_Transport to Summer_:  "Chaos in Motion and Not in Motion."  The final
six couplets are eerily, tragically resonant, at least to this New
Yorker who has lost the whole in which he was contained:

	People fall out of windows, trees tumble down,
	Summer is changed to winter, the young grow old,

	The air is full of children, statues, roofs
	And snow.  The theatre is spinning round,

	Colliding with deaf-mute churches and optical trains.
	The most massive sopranos are singing songs of scales.

	And Ludwig Richter, turbulent Schlemihl,
	Has lost the whole in which he was contained,

	Knows desire without an object of desire,
	All mind and violence and nothing felt.

	He knows he has nothing more to think about,
	Like the wind that lashes everything at once.

                                            rwm




From halvard  Wed Sep 12 23:08:12 2001
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 23:08:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] 9/11 + 1  an update from Hal
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEEBGEBAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

The wind's changed, and tonight we're getting something of the
taste and smell of the smoke, which plumes north-northeast
through the clear evening sky, Mars standing high over New York
Harbor to the south. We were out only briefly, to walk a couple
blocks south on West Street and cross over to the Hudson River
Park, where we stood for a few minutes looking down at the
WTC area, where some of the standing structures were silhouetted
by emergency lights against the great white cloud arising behind 
them. 

As we had seen shortly before on the BBC, people along West
Street farther south were cheering and applauding emergency
workers--both those coming north, and those relieving them
going south.

This morning, there was no New York Times outside our apartment
door as there usually is, so after a cup of coffee or two, we headed
out to find a paper. 

The Bus Stop, our local breakfast joint, already had a line as we
passed, and we soon found that no newspapers had been delivered
to stores or curbside boxes below 14th Street. And the streets were
empty of traffic--a few emergency vehicles, but mostly walkers
and people on bikes. Most stores were locked and shuttered.

At 8th Ave. and 14th. St., we passed through the police barricades
and headed north, above 14th. St. Non-essential vehicles were
prohibited below 14th St. Basically, we walked up 8th to 23rd St.
and then east to 6th Ave. and then north to 42nd St. We bought
a Post, and then an Observer, and then a Wall Street Journal,
and then a News--but no NYT. So, we walked back west along
42nd St., thinking we'd find one easily at the Port Authority Bus
Terminal, forgetting that the bridges and tunnels were closed, and
thus the buses wouldn't be running. The PA was closed and
barracaded, so we started back down 8th Ave.

We found our Times at Penn Station, two levels down below
street level, at a Hudson News Stand where the guy at the cash
register said there were no more Times at the same moment
another guy was unloaded a new batch onto the floor. 

Lynda, our newspapers, and I then continued on down 8th
Ave. until we decided, weirdly, to stop in at the Utopia luncheonette
at the corner of 8th and 27th, the same place we'd stopped
on our walk downtown the very first time I'd trained up to Baltimore
to see her some twelve years or more ago now. Somehow, it
was just a rest stop for us now, and not a bit nostalgic--well,
maybe just a smidgen. So, we ate breakfast, with our unread
newspapers on the chair beside me, and with pop-songs and
Dubya on the PA-ed radio. I had only five bucks in my wallet,
so the waiter and I tried two different credit cards before we
found one for which the telephone call would go through.

People were moving everywhere we went, moving uptown,
downtown, like us with newspapers. Not in Penn Station,
though. There folks were standing in long lines for tickets,
or sprawled in the waiting room (only for ticketed passengers).

At the 14th St. barrier, police were checking IDs of people
wanting to go farther south, into the Village. A woman in blue
was asking two gals and a guy if they had IDs showing they
lived there. Lynda and I just walked past, and were nearly
home. The line outside the Bus Stop was even longer.

Back in the apartment, two messages on the machine told
each of us separately that the Eugene Lang College of the
New School University would be closed today, the building
being used as a clearinghouse/information center for people
who couldn't find people.

So, once again we wavered between CNN and NY1 on the
cable-connected TV. The little one without cable brought
in only Channel 2, the local CBS station. All the other
New York stations were off the air (though not off cable),
since their transmitters had gone down yesterday with the WTC.

Hal          "Flotsam, please, and a side order of jetsam."

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html



From Rsgwynn1  Wed Sep 12 23:58:48 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 23:58:48 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems in these times
Message-ID: <6c.fe2bda1.28d188f8@cs.com>

I was telling my class tonight that only one poem came immediately to mind in 
the aftermath of September 11, Milton's "On the Late Massacre in Piedmont."

But later I was reminded of Henri Coulette's bitter little remembrance of a 
past decade's steady diet of madness:

A Short History of the Sixties

Bang! Bang! Bang!
And always in the head.
Click, and we're watching TV:
The Plane, the Widow, the Mass.
We drive with our lights on.
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From rloden  Thu Sep 13 08:06:21 2001
From: rloden (Rachel Loden)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 05:06:21 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] September 1, 1939
Message-ID: <3BA0A13D.6C7F33AF@concentric.net>

This reads pretty eerily today.

by W. H. Auden   

                    I sit in one of the dives
                    On Fifty-second Street
                    Uncertain and afraid
                    As the clever hopes expire
                    Of a low dishonest decade:
                    Waves of anger and fear
                    Circulate over the bright 
                    And darkened lands of the earth,
                    Obsessing our private lives;
                    The unmentionable odour of death
                    Offends the September night.

                    Accurate scholarship can 
                    Unearth the whole offence
                    From Luther until now
                    That has driven a culture mad,
                    Find what occurred at Linz,
                    What huge imago made
                    A psychopathic god:
                    I and the public know
                    What all schoolchildren learn,
                    Those to whom evil is done
                    Do evil in return. 

                    Exiled Thucydides knew
                    All that a speech can say
                    About Democracy,
                    And what dictators do,
                    The elderly rubbish they talk
                    To an apathetic grave;
                    Analysed all in his book,
                    The enlightenment driven away,
                    The habit-forming pain,
                    Mismanagement and grief:
                    We must suffer them all again.

                    Into this neutral air
                    Where blind skyscrapers use
                    Their full height to proclaim
                    The strength of Collective Man,
                    Each language pours its vain
                    Competitive excuse:
                    But who can live for long
                    In an euphoric dream;
                    Out of the mirror they stare,
                    Imperialism's face
                    And the international wrong.

                    Faces along the bar
                    Cling to their average day:
                    The lights must never go out,
                    The music must always play,
                    All the conventions conspire 
                    To make this fort assume
                    The furniture of home;
                    Lest we should see where we are,
                    Lost in a haunted wood,
                    Children afraid of the night
                    Who have never been happy or good.

                    The windiest militant trash
                    Important Persons shout
                    Is not so crude as our wish:
                    What mad Nijinsky wrote
                    About Diaghilev
                    Is true of the normal heart;
                    For the error bred in the bone
                    Of each woman and each man
                    Craves what it cannot have,
                    Not universal love
                    But to be loved alone.

                    From the conservative dark
                    Into the ethical life
                    The dense commuters come,
                    Repeating their morning vow;
                    "I will be true to the wife,
                    I'll concentrate more on my work,"
                    And helpless governors wake
                    To resume their compulsory game:
                    Who can release them now,
                    Who can reach the deaf,
                    Who can speak for the dumb?

                    All I have is a voice
                    To undo the folded lie,
                    The romantic lie in the brain
                    Of the sensual man-in-the-street
                    And the lie of Authority
                    Whose buildings grope the sky:
                    There is no such thing as the State
                    And no one exists alone;
                    Hunger allows no choice
                    To the citizen or the police;
                    We must love one another or die.

                    Defenceless under the night
                    Our world in stupor lies;
                    Yet, dotted everywhere,
                    Ironic points of light
                    Flash out wherever the Just
                    Exchange their messages:
                    May I, composed like them
                    Of Eros and of dust,
                    Beleaguered by the same
                    Negation and despair,
                    Show an affirming flame.



From kellogg  Thu Sep 13 09:49:29 2001
From: kellogg (David Kellogg)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:49:29 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] from H.D.
References: <LNBBLKJNOGEECDCCBGHNGEMFCNAA.mackechnie@email.msn.com>
Message-ID: <3BA0B969.ACD8EDD0@duke.edu>

This is from the first section of "The Walls do Not Fall," written during or
shortly after the London Blitz:

     there, as here, ruin opens
     the tomb, the temple; enter,
     there as here, there are no doors:

     the shrine lies open to the sky,
     the rain falls, here, there
     sand drifts; eternity endures;

     ruin everywhere, yet as the fallen roof
     leaves the sealed room
     open to the air,

     so, through our desolation,
     thoughts stir, inspiration stalks us
     through gloom:

     unaware, Spirit announces the Presence;
     shivering overtakes us,
     as of old, Samuel:

     trembling at a known street-corner
     we know not nor are known:
     the Pythian pronounces -- we pass on

     to another cellar, to another sliced wall
     where poor utensils show
     like rare objects in a museum;

     Pompeii has nothing to teach us,
     we know crack of volcanic fissure,
     show flow of terrible lava,

     pressure on heart, lungs, the brain
     about to burst in its brittle case
     (what the skull can endure!):

     over us, Apocryphal fire,
     under us, the earth sway, dip of a floor,
     slope of a pavement

     where men roll, drunk
     with a new bewilderment,
     sorcery, bedevilment:

     the bone-frame was made for
     no such shock knit within terror,
     yet the skeleton stood up to it:

     the flesh? it was melted away,
     the heart burnst out, dead ember,
     tendons, muscles shattered, outer husk dismembered,

     yet the frame held:
     we passed the flame: we wonder
     what saved us?  what for?

----------------------------

David Kellogg
Director, Writing in the Disciplines
Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing
Duke University
(919) 668-1615; FAX (919) 681-0637
http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg

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From halvard  Thu Sep 13 10:44:17 2001
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 10:44:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] 9/11+2  Morning traffic report from Hal
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEEBMEBAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Here's what the morning commute in the NYC area
looks like today. This website has pages for places
all over the country, so have a look. This URL is
specifically for the NYC area, but click around and
you'll find others.

http://newyork.metrocommute.com/

My Tuesday-Friday commute is by PATH train to
Newark. I catch the Journal Square train at Christopher
Street, just before it goes under the Hudson River and
into New Jersey.

		"There is now PATH service from 33rd
		Street to Newark/Hoboken every 5-10
		minutes, but there is no service to Exchange
		Place in Jersey City. You must transfer to
		the light rail at Pavonia Avenue. The World
		Trade Center line will be out for perhaps
		several years, or more."

At Journal Square in Jersey City, I usually transfer to the Newark 
train, which comes/came out of the WTC. Just outside Jersey
City, the train comes out of its tunnel and travels above ground
the rest of the way into Penn Station in Newark. Much of the
way, the WTC towers were once visible beyond the unseen Hudson.
Tomorrow I'll see a different landscape.

Hal     "Between the manifold splendors of anger, I
           watch a door slam like the corsage of a flower
           or the erasers of schoolchildren."
                         --Andre Breton

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html



From languagethief  Thu Sep 13 10:57:02 2001
From: languagethief (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 07:57:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lordly Hudson
In-Reply-To: <3BA0A13D.6C7F33AF@concentric.net>
Message-ID: <20010913145702.17758.qmail@web12208.mail.yahoo.com>

Can anyone send me, or post, the text of Paul
Goodman's "The Lordly Hudson"?

__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/



From msnider  Thu Sep 13 11:06:52 2001
From: msnider (Michael Snider)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 11:06:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lordly Hudson
In-Reply-To: <20010913145702.17758.qmail@web12208.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <200109131510.LAA20117@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

The Lordly Hudson


"Driver, what stream is it?" I asked, well knowing
it was our lordly Hudson hardly flowing,
"It is our lordly Hudson hardly flowing,"
he said, "under the green-grown cliffs."

Be still, man! no one needs your passionate
suffrage to select this glory,
this is our lordly  Hudson hardly flowing
under the green-grown cliffs.

"Driver!  has this a peer in Europe or the East?"
"No, no!" he said. Home! home!
be quiet, heart! this is our lordly Hudson
and has no peer in Europe or the East,

this is our lordly Hudson hardly flowing
under the green-grown cliffs
and has no peer in Europe or the East.
Be patient, Paul! home! home!


         Paul Goodman


On Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 10:57 AM, The Old Mole wrote:

> Can anyone send me, or post, the text of Paul
> Goodman's "The Lordly Hudson"?
>
> __________________________________________________
> Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
> Donate cash, emergency relief information
> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From moira_russell  Thu Sep 13 12:05:55 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 08:05:55 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] September 1, 1939
Message-ID: <F107OciPXkmCJiLyNfH00017b81@hotmail.com>

I would just like to say thank you for posting this poem (it has been 
running through my head recently, along with some other Auden) and thank you 
to the others who have been posting poetry, too.  In this time what Merrill 
called the little raft of language seems smaller than ever, but it still 
helps....I was reminded of something David Graham quoted a few weeks ago 
about the *necessity* of writing poetry after Auschwitz, or other terrible 
events.  I have been reminded recently not only of how suddenly the abyss 
may yawn but also of the power poetry has, if not to heal then at least to 
comfort and succor.

So thanks.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

>From: Rachel Loden <rloden at concentric.net>
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] September 1, 1939
>Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 05:06:21 -0700
>
>This reads pretty eerily today.
>
>by W. H. Auden
>
>                     I sit in one of the dives

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From Rsgwynn1  Thu Sep 13 12:31:50 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:31:50 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] from H.D.
Message-ID: <15e.ced8f5.28d23976@cs.com>

I think also of Edith Sitwell's famous "Still Falls the Rain."
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From moira_russell  Thu Sep 13 13:05:04 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 09:05:04 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Auden
Message-ID: <F93bGBSNfGWum8u4xIt00001774@hotmail.com>

In Memory of W. B. Yeats
W. H. Auden


      III

          Earth, receive an honoured guest:
          William Yeats is laid to rest.
          Let the Irish vessel lie
          Emptied of its poetry.

          In the nightmare of the dark
          All the dogs of Europe bark,
          And the living nations wait,
          Each sequestered in its hate;

          Intellectual disgrace
          Stares from every human face,
          And the seas of pity lie
          Locked and frozen in each eye.

          Follow, poet, follow right
          To the bottom of the night,
          With your unconstraining voice
          Still persuade us to rejoice;

          With the farming of a verse
          Make a vineyard of the curse,
          Sing of human unsuccess
          In a rapture of distress;

          In the deserts of the heart
          Let the healing fountain start,
          In the prison of his days
          Teach the free man how to praise.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From rwilsnac  Thu Sep 13 15:08:55 2001
From: rwilsnac (rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:08:55 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lordly Hudson
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010913120855.00d4596c@medicine.nodak.edu>

At 07:57 AM 9/13/01 -0700, The Old Mole wrote:
>Can anyone send me, or post, the text of Paul
>Goodman's "The Lordly Hudson"?

Here is what's online:

----------------------------------------------

"Driver, what stream is it?" I asked, well knowing 
 it was our lordly Hudson hardly flowing.
 "It is our lordly Hudson hardly flowing,"
 he said, "under the green-grown cliffs."
 Be still, heart! No one needs 
 your passionate suffrage to select this glory --
 this is our lordly Hudson hardly flowing
 under the green-grown cliffs. 

 "Driver, has this a peer in Europe or the East?"
 "No, no!" he said. 
 Home! Home! Be quiet, heart!
 This is our lordly Hudson 
 and has no peer in Europe or the East;
 this is our lordly Hudson hardly flowing
 under the green-grown cliffs 
 and has no peer in Europe or the East;
 be quiet, heart! Home! Home! 

------------------------------------------------

Ned Rorem set this text to music as his first published song, in 1947.

Richard W. Wilsnack
Department of Neuroscience
University of North Dakota School of Medicine & Health Sciences
Grand Forks, ND  58202-9037
rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu



From halvard  Thu Sep 13 13:23:02 2001
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 13:23:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] In Memoriam
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOECBEBAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

This was written a few years ago, but today (9/13) it seems
pertinent in new ways.

Hal



In Memoriam: Luigi Nono

		"Caminante, no hay caminos, hay que caminar."
                                   ?Inscription on the wall of a cloister in Toledo

1.
Traveler, there are no roads,
but we must go. No voices speak to us
from the clouds, and yet we must
listen. I seek you out

in Venice, but you have already left
the city. I reach you by phone
in Berlin, and we agree
on a time and a place to meet.

In the meantime, I explore this city of waters,
I walk the canals and bridges, I inspect
the market squares. I look for
Tintorettos and for pieces

of your childhood here. I seek
you out, but you have already left.
The roads and ways are deserted, the canals
and bridges are empty of people.

I must go to meet you, but there is no
way to go. The overtones of our
conversations hang in the air like something
too private for words. Too spontaneous,

yet binding. Tintoretto, Schnittke, Webern?
the names wander in and out of our conversation.
I am attracted and repelled by you, I speak
and you are silent, I walk and you stand still.


2.		"He showed me into one of his rooms."

I tried to decipher his letters. Outside, Freiburg
Sweltered?the last days of summer. He made
demands on me I felt I could not possibly meet.
He expected some sort of ideal human being.

It was the beginning, he announced. And he
wanted to move on from there. He wanted to work
on the continuation. The overtones of our talk,
a word here, a word there?hints that I could not reckon.

"Don't get excited." He tapped his forehead. "I've
got it all here." My fear and anxiety heightened.
The concert was a day away. The bridge, the canals?
all empty of people.

3.		"To travel is the goal."

Now he is dead, and I feel a need to do something,
something in honor of his memory. I feel the words
coming back to me, overlapping, moving away from
each other, losing each other, coming back, disappearing,
overlapping, disappearing again.

I feel the sounds, the dreams, moving outward along
as yet undisclosed highways, moving toward?well,
there is nowhere to go, but go we must. We must
play, as if there's some underlying order to our
discomfitures, highways and byways of stars.

--Halvard Johnson       [after texts by Luigi Pestalozza and
Gidon Kremer; tr. Christopher Whyte and Stewart Spencer]




From paul.lake  Thu Sep 13 02:41:28 2001
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 01:41:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Age of Terror
Message-ID: <B7C5BF48.1B99%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Here's a poem from my first book, published in '88.




        The Age of Terror


No thunder across the steppes, no horde of Huns?
The rat-tat-tat of automatic guns
Rattles our quiet. On a downtown street
Or any capital where four roads meet
A statesman lies sprawled out on the crossroads?
Or turns a key: his limousine explodes,
And footfalls echo down the corridor
Of history, where no ambassador
Or mini-cam can follow.
                 Blow your horn,
Roland or Gabriel, there?s none to warn
Who hasn?t seen already on TV
Some minister of ideology
Proclaim that as the sun sinks in the West
No Joshua can stall, no word arrest
The earth sure revolutions at a command
Instead, a darkness creeps across the land;
And since it?s easier to turn toward night,
To bomb a power plant, than to shed light,
The sun fails in the West.  A new Dark Age
Is ushered in as nations hemorrhage
At every severed artery where bands
Of ragtag soldiers issue their demands
At gun point. See, a new imperium
Broadcast by headline and by letter bomb
Replaces our old government of men . . .
Until, by fiat, light?s declared again
At midnight, and an iron rule replaces
The old chaos with universal stasis.
O brave new world! more catholic than Rome?
The sky spreads like a cupola or dome
Over the earth?wide, wider?till the last
Protestant voice is silenced in the vast
Inhuman northern cold, across whose snows
The far-flung stars are archipelagoes.


                   
Paul Lake




From languagethief  Thu Sep 13 15:38:07 2001
From: languagethief (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:38:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lordly Hudson
In-Reply-To: <200109131510.LAA20117@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <20010913193807.9578.qmail@web12202.mail.yahoo.com>

Michael -- thank you. 

I guess everything brings back in one way or another
to the horror of Tuesday. I live on one side of the
Hudson, work on the other. I drive across the
Kingston-Rhinecliff bridge, one of the most beautiful
views imaginable, up and dowriver. And I can't
thinking, these last couple of days, how easy it would
be for that bridge not to be there.

Tad


--- Michael Snider <msnider at mindspring.com> wrote:
> The Lordly Hudson
> 
> 
> "Driver, what stream is it?" I asked, well knowing
> it was our lordly Hudson hardly flowing,
> "It is our lordly Hudson hardly flowing,"
> he said, "under the green-grown cliffs."
> 
> Be still, man! no one needs your passionate
> suffrage to select this glory,
> this is our lordly  Hudson hardly flowing
> under the green-grown cliffs.
> 
> "Driver!  has this a peer in Europe or the East?"
> "No, no!" he said. Home! home!
> be quiet, heart! this is our lordly Hudson
> and has no peer in Europe or the East,
> 
> this is our lordly Hudson hardly flowing
> under the green-grown cliffs
> and has no peer in Europe or the East.
> Be patient, Paul! home! home!
> 
> 
>          Paul Goodman
> 
> 
> On Thursday, September 13, 2001, at 10:57 AM, The
> Old Mole wrote:
> 
> > Can anyone send me, or post, the text of Paul
> > Goodman's "The Lordly Hudson"?
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
> > Donate cash, emergency relief information
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>
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/
> > _______________________________________________
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> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


__________________________________________________
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From languagethief  Thu Sep 13 15:41:07 2001
From: languagethief (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:41:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Lordly Hudson
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20010913120855.00d4596c@medicine.nodak.edu>
Message-ID: <20010913194107.44620.qmail@web12207.mail.yahoo.com>

Richard -- thank you. I saw that, and knew something
was just a little wrong, but I couldn't remember what.
It was the stanza breaks.

I'm teaching a course next semester on literature of
the Hudson Valley. While I'm imposing on people's time
and good will here, does anyone have any sources or
suggestons for Native American literature of the
Hudson Valley?

Tad


--- rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu wrote:
> At 07:57 AM 9/13/01 -0700, The Old Mole wrote:
> >Can anyone send me, or post, the text of Paul
> >Goodman's "The Lordly Hudson"?
> 
> Here is what's online:
> 
> ----------------------------------------------
> 
> "Driver, what stream is it?" I asked, well knowing 
>  it was our lordly Hudson hardly flowing.
>  "It is our lordly Hudson hardly flowing,"
>  he said, "under the green-grown cliffs."
>  Be still, heart! No one needs 
>  your passionate suffrage to select this glory --
>  this is our lordly Hudson hardly flowing
>  under the green-grown cliffs. 
> 
>  "Driver, has this a peer in Europe or the East?"
>  "No, no!" he said. 
>  Home! Home! Be quiet, heart!
>  This is our lordly Hudson 
>  and has no peer in Europe or the East;
>  this is our lordly Hudson hardly flowing
>  under the green-grown cliffs 
>  and has no peer in Europe or the East;
>  be quiet, heart! Home! Home! 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------
> 
> Ned Rorem set this text to music as his first
> published song, in 1947.
> 
> Richard W. Wilsnack
> Department of Neuroscience
> University of North Dakota School of Medicine &
> Health Sciences
> Grand Forks, ND  58202-9037
> rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


__________________________________________________
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From languagethief  Thu Sep 13 15:42:40 2001
From: languagethief (The Old Mole)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 12:42:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blake
In-Reply-To: <20010913193807.9578.qmail@web12202.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20010913194240.10476.qmail@web12202.mail.yahoo.com>

Prologue, intended for a Dramatic Piece of King Edward
the Fourth

     O for a voice like thunder, and a tongue 
     To drown the throat of war! When the senses
     Are shaken, and the soul is driven to madness,
     Who can stand? When the souls of the oppress?d
     Fight in the troubled air that rages, who can
stand?
     When the whirlwind of fury comes from the
     Throne of God, when the frowns of his countenance
     Drive the nations together, who can stand?
     When Sin claps his broad wings over the battle,
     And sails rejoicing in the flood of Death;
     When souls are torn to everlasting fire,
     And fiends of Hell rejoice upon the slain,
     O who can stand? O who hath caus?d this?
     O who can answer at the throne of God?
     The Kings and Nobles of the Land have done it!
     Hear it not, Heaven, thy Ministers have done it!

					--William Blake

__________________________________________________
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From duemer  Thu Sep 13 18:29:30 2001
From: duemer (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 18:29:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems in these times
References: <6c.fe2bda1.28d188f8@cs.com>
Message-ID: <005101c13ca3$8e67fd00$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

THE CONFLICT OF CONVICTIONS [first stanza]

On starry heights
A bugle wails the long recall;
Derision stirs the deep abyss,
Heaven's ominous silence over all.
Return, return, O eager Hope,
And face man's latter fall.
Events, they make the dreamers quail;
Satan's old age is strong and hale,
A disciplined captain, gray in skill,
And Raphael a white enthusiast still;
Dashed aims, at which Christ's martyrs pale,
Shall Mammon's slaves fulfill?

[Herman Melville, from Battle Pieces]

======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750 
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
====================== 




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From msnider  Thu Sep 13 19:42:09 2001
From: msnider (Michael Snider)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 19:42:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kipling's "The  Prayer"
Message-ID: <200109132346.TAA20756@smtp6.mindspring.com>


My brother kneels, so saith Kabir,
To stone and brass in heathen wise,
But in my brother's voice I hear
My own unanswered agonies.
His God is as his fates assign,
His prayer is all the world's -- and mine.



From grahamd  Thu Sep 13 23:11:56 2001
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 22:11:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: September 1, 1939
Message-ID: <200109140312.f8E3CdB85505@mx16.mx.voyager.net>

I love that phrase "the little raft of language," Moira.  

You mentioned the quote from Alicia Ostriker that I posted a while ago. 
Yes, it seems all too apt about now, as does the Auden poem.  I'll quote
Ostriker again:

"To the famous declaration of Theodore Adorno that there can be no poetry
after Auschwitz, a possible response is that there *must* be poetry after
Auschwitz.  Not to go on with poetry would be like not going on with life: 
a surrender to the powers of human destruction.  We may understand, however,
that by "Auschwitz" we mean not only the holocaust of World War II, but an
ongoing concatenation of horrors scarring twentieth century history and
spilling over into the present millennium, to which we are unavoidably
exposed by the excellence of our technology.   Books, newsprint, radio,
television, photography, film, video, daily convey to us the news--it is no
longer news--of our violence and corruptibility as a species.  Daily we are
invited to despair, or to complicit apathy."
  --Alicia Ostriker.  "Beyond Confession:  The Poetics of Postmodern
Witness"

David Graham

_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________

----------
>From: "Moira Russell" <moira_russell at hotmail.com>
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] September 1, 1939
>Date: Thu, Sep 13, 2001, 11:05 AM
>

>I would just like to say thank you for posting this poem (it has been 
>running through my head recently, along with some other Auden) and thank you 
>to the others who have been posting poetry, too.  In this time what Merrill 
>called the little raft of language seems smaller than ever, but it still 
>helps....I was reminded of something David Graham quoted a few weeks ago 
>about the *necessity* of writing poetry after Auschwitz, or other terrible 
>events.  I have been reminded recently not only of how suddenly the abyss 
>may yawn but also of the power poetry has, if not to heal then at least to 
>comfort and succor.
>
>So thanks.
>
>Moira Russell
>Seattle, WA



From mmagee  Thu Sep 13 23:27:45 2001
From: mmagee (Michael Magee)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 23:27:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Michael Magee reads (fwd)
Message-ID: <200109140327.XAA13877@dept.english.upenn.edu>

According to Jim Behrle:
> 
> Michael Magee reads at
> Brookline Booksmith
> this Friday 9/14 at 7 PM
> 
> Michael Magee is the editor
> of COMBO magazine.  His new
> collection of poems is
> MORNING CONSTITUTIONAL.
> 
> Please join us--
> 
> Brookline Booksmith
> 279 Harvard St.
> Brookline, MA 02446
> --
> Jim Behrle, Events Director
> (617) 739 6002 [phone and voice mail]
> (617) 734 9125 [fax]
> events at brooklinebooksmith.com
> http://www.brooklinebooksmith.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> 




From cstroffo  Fri Sep 14 06:09:00 2001
From: cstroffo (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 03:09:00 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: September 10, 2001
References: <200109140312.f8E3CdB85505@mx16.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <3BA1D73C.8FD4EFD@earthlink.net>

Dear friends, etc....

This is very rough (as a poem at least), but I thought I'd share this....
(any comments, aesthetic or ethical, political, pos. or neg., welcome----)

Chris


Social Solipsism: A Perverse Response to Recent Tragedy

Proof at last America is not an isolationalist!

Though you?d never guess it by recent reports
There?s a war going on between
?will the circle (of violence) be unbroken?
and ?I?m mad as hell & I?m not going to take it anymore?

I had thoroughly repressed my nostalgia for New York these last two months
(not so much by proactively making new memories here
as by curbing further curiosities until I began to digest
what for years sat stranded on the tastebuds)
until thefire?s gray glare on my black and white TV
gave proof through the morn the towers weren?t there.

Now, I almost envy my friends there, I long.
It?s like they all sent me this giant ?wish you were here? postcard.
Sure, none of them have yet come forth
To tell me of the death of someone close
And some were awfully lucky
Like Fred who works there & never oversleeps,
Who on this one day did.

But even if one has died,
I wave no flag but dig out the peacesign
To wear like a bible over my breast pocket
To prevent the bullet of the flags
>From flapping in my face.
I wear the button like a finger
That could become a hand
If 4 others joined me in flipping its bird at Bush.

This is what I think it meant to be a hippy-punk
When his dad?s ?kinder, gentler? war-itch
Hadn?t yet latched on Saddam:
?I?m in love with everyone

but don?t go putting flowers in my gun?
(sayeth the Volcano Suns). The DJ laughs,
?Tonight the L.A. Guns are playing?
though business as usual is disrupted
and Bush has not yet begun bombing
(silent night, sooty night, 7 O?Clock news
.)
?Nuclear winter lasts millions of years
?

It?s that in-between crisis epiphany
When folks are shaken to the root
And may, if not for the news, question everything
And since I?ve always been more concerned
With the atrocities closer to me
To the point where I run the risk of self-laceration,
Biting the hand that feeds me
When I?ve already eaten more than I can digest
And, even in poetry circles, get called a ?native informer?
For pointing out inconsistencies (that would be okay
if they weren?t evident in those who claim to value consistency)
In the ?avant? poetics of those who criticize
What they call mainstream
More than I lash out at the follies and fuck ups and (minor) atrocities
Of those I would have to be less isolationalist
And more imperialist to even meet,
I see the news trying to tell me it?s my duty to be an imperialist.
No more now, ?to defend freedom,? than ever.

And even if I?m all thumbs,
I point my psychic sidekick gun at Bush,
Enough of a yippee if not quite a hippie
To allow you to say my bang flags, my blanks
Are more like flowers than flags on tanks
Enough of a punk and sort of a monk
To know that the working title for the Clash?s
Only top ten American hit (which ?coincidentally?
Had anti-Arab sentiments) was ?rob the cashbox.?

Bush, you make Eisenhauer seem a peacenik by comparison
(as if 5 little words, ?Beware the military industrial complex?
could expiate his guilt, and erase 8 long years of ?Leave It To Beaver?
while Beats and panthers bubbled beneath the Joneses
even Baraka was at this point still trying to keep up with---
who would?ve guessed that ground would seem more fertile 40 years later?)

Bush, I know it?s as bad for me to single you out
As it is for you to single out that terrorist in Afghanistan
And I know you are but an iceberg tip
Of a military-post industrial complex
Symbolized by the three buildings whose fire
Gives proof through these days that you are still there,
Bigger than ever, a complex bigger and older than you,
Like Chaney perhaps, but bigger than him too

But now is not the time to address the faceless world incurious
Much less to hail the chimp
And I could even, if only for strategic reasons,
Grant your heart, and the heart of those
Who bought you the election, is in the right place,
That you truly care about the safety of people like myself
Who very well have been in the basement
Of the towers transferring from the N and the R
To the Path Train to get to my adjunct job at Rutgers
Had I not been fortuitiously offered a better job
Far enough from ground zero to worry about rolling blackouts


And that you would certainly not want to be mistaken
For the kind of Christian who would crucify Christ
Is perchance the second coming of the one and only God
Were to happen as you say,
And that that Bible you tote for the cameras
Actually says ?thou shalt not kill
unless an Arab,
Or unless he killed first
?

But did they kill first really??
I?ll let someone like Dan Bouchard fill in the details
With numerous historical examples by which the people
Of your administration (to say nothing of your family)
Were involved; suffice it to say I know
And there?s evidence, there?s blood on your hands
And now it?s not just foreign, not just enlisted.

The chickens haven?t quite come home to roost
Because you?re alive, lucky as Fred, or just like Saddam
If not the Iraqi civilians too poor to outsmart your bombs
But they have come home to some who supported you---
Though probably more who didn?t
(since there were more janitors in the pentagon,
More clerks in the trade towers,
Than senators, lobbyists, and warriors)

And even if they were duped like my dad
Not realizing the reason he was laid off
Was close kin to the reason the stockmarket was up,
And even if I?m duped by believing
That killing the men who killed them
Won?t make things any safer for us survivors
And, if anything, can make things worse,
I know that it is not too cool to be ridiculed
(especially by most of the world?s population)
but that you brought this upon yourself
and the Wonder?s brilliant double negative
makes me really wish you?d do nothing,
make nothing happen like Auden (if not Pound?s) idea of poetry,
submit your swords to Ploughshares magazine,
your warfare to The Germ, or maybe even Fence,
I mean the one you can sit on
Between isolationalism and imperialism.

But, failing that, spit your bile out in a slam
Even if the pen isn?t mightier.
Oh, be weak and squishy, like Falstaff
Or I as a lad when the neighbor boy came at me with fists
And though I didn?t punch him in the fist with my face
I ran home I?m proud to say
While the roots of the ugly tree my dad chopped down
Sprang up as 20 more---

We weren?t safe before, but now that we know it,
What shall we do? And why should we listen to you?
There?s no one else to listen to.
You have the answer, you got the cure.
The news is with you, but the becomes a
And I suppose your guess is more or less as bad as mine
As Thom Yorke holds his ?let Ralph debate? sign
Like Dylan?s ?Watch Out? or ?Dig Yourself?
And I do, pausing for gold, pausing for shit,
Pausing for what I hope?s not mere wit
Or the ?premature conspiracy theories?
A new friend accuses me of?

For I know that during the long lean years
That I have craved a stock market crash,
A disruption of business as usual,
And that there?s a side to me
That would defend the Unabomber
On the grounds he killed far less
Than he did as a cog in the warmachine
At respectable M.I.T

And I know this could be treason
Were it not that I believe, as you
Claim you do, that killing is wrong
Even if by taking my position
To its logical consequences,
I?d probably be considered suicidal
At least in a society where the death penalty
Is more legal than euthanasia
So I sympathize and forgive
The man who kills in the heat of the moment, in self-defence,
Much more than the political terror of the CIA
Or whoever it was who hijacked those planes
And may even (heaven forbid) be forced into that situation
While I?m not feeling particularly ?unattached? to life

But you could counter, as you do,
That since you stole, I mean, won, the public trust
That you too are acting in self-defense
But it?s not the heat of the moment, you know damn well,
And you?ve been itchin? for military action since the day you got in,
Pissing off China, Russia, Saddam, now this---
How fortuitious, the economy: weak, your ratings:
So-so; the tax cuts didn?t do it. Wag the dog, folks will rally.
An old, old story, which Shakespeare doth tally


Even if you didn?t set them on, or know in advance
As some say Roosevelt did about Pearl Harbor,
Which, granted, doesn?t have anything on this,
But to the extent Hitler?s crimes were against humanity
Far more than property, you are not worthy
To lick Roosevelt?s boots.

Even if you didn?t set them on,
They were, as even the papers claim, CIA trained.
You can dish it out but you can?t take it
And this boomerang would be comic
If the chickens had truly come home to roost
And the hijacked planes would have only been filled
With masters of war, and some little bird
(illegal to feed in New York) would have warned
each and every innocent civilian away
from the towers and pentagon that Tuesday day.
It didn?t happen, but the only way you could save your skin
Was to get blood on your hands.

The enemy of my enemy may not be my friend,
And since I do not know their intentions
I cannot say if they missed their target,
All I know is that they missed MY target,
Which was not you so much as the forces
(would they were farces) who speak through you,
ignorant or evil I cannot say
and that maybe I need to rethink
my desire to see the market crash
to disrupt business as usual
for I cannot say I?m glad it?s happened
but wish we lived in a land
where the President wouldn?t have to wait
to his final speech to cop to the existence
of a military industrial complex,
where Kaczinski?s anti-tech and anti-war statements
could get on the cover of the New York Times
without him having to become his own enemy by killing,
and when I say we (or) you can dish it out but you can?t take it,
I don?t mean we should be ?strong? enough to keep taking it
As much as that we should use this opportunity
To stop dishing it out



Chris Stroffolino











From CobbCoStudioArts  Fri Sep 14 07:36:18 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 04:36:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: September 10, 2001
Message-ID: <20010914113618.5A22436F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From wasanthony  Fri Sep 14 08:55:15 2001
From: wasanthony (jcervantes)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 05:55:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Film Without Sound, 9/11/01
Message-ID: <20010914125515.67262.qmail@web12106.mail.yahoo.com>

Film Without Sound
     - September 11, 2001


Those who chose death chose well
the plane's graceful arc,
engines' scream
absent from pure motion.
"Look, look," a likely face said
without saying.
"What?," a likely face asked
without question,
eyes full of office wall
forever, instantly never.
Wings and wall
a hot knife in butter,
glass aluminum steel
cement flesh blood
face wall steel glass
air at last.

Coming home
the graceful plane's
wide wings as wide
as screaming wall,
the red bloom,
the pornographic entry.
Oh child of the east
did you grow to be
your outstretched hand
banking west,
are you finally what
you wanted to be?
Wings and wall,
glass aluminum steel
cement flesh blood
face wall steel glass
air at last?

Again and again,
the graceful wall,
the silent plane,
awful brother and sister
of mother nation, 
scream of one red bloom.
"Look, look," the face
of all faces said,
and the plane stopped,
the engines died.
Wings and wall,
glass aluminum steel
cement flesh blood
face wall steel glass
air at last.


- Jim

=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
"Ripples" @ <http://www.poetserv.net>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/



From paul.lake  Thu Sep 13 22:22:19 2001
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2001 21:22:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: September 10, 2001
In-Reply-To: <3BA1D73C.8FD4EFD@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <B7C6D40B.1BAF%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 9/14/01 5:09 AM, Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino at cstroffo at earthlink.net
wrote:

> Dear friends, etc....
> 
> This is very rough (as a poem at least), but I thought I'd share this....
> (any comments, aesthetic or ethical, political, pos. or neg., welcome----)
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> Social Solipsism: A Perverse Response to Recent Tragedy
> 
> Proof at last America is not an isolationalist!
> 
> Though you?d never guess it by recent reports
> There?s a war going on between
> ?will the circle (of violence) be unbroken?
> and ?I?m mad as hell & I?m not going to take it anymore?
> 
> I had thoroughly repressed my nostalgia for New York these last two months
> (not so much by proactively making new memories here
> as by curbing further curiosities until I began to digest
> what for years sat stranded on the tastebuds)
> until thefire?s gray glare on my black and white TV
> gave proof through the morn the towers weren?t there.
> 
> Now, I almost envy my friends there, I long.
> It?s like they all sent me this giant ?wish you were here? postcard.
> Sure, none of them have yet come forth
> To tell me of the death of someone close
> And some were awfully lucky
> Like Fred who works there & never oversleeps,
> Who on this one day did.
> 
> But even if one has died,
> I wave no flag but dig out the peacesign
> To wear like a bible over my breast pocket
> To prevent the bullet of the flags
>> From flapping in my face.
> I wear the button like a finger
> That could become a hand
> If 4 others joined me in flipping its bird at Bush.
> 
> This is what I think it meant to be a hippy-punk
> When his dad?s ?kinder, gentler? war-itch
> Hadn?t yet latched on Saddam:
> ?I?m in love with everyone

> but don?t go putting flowers in my gun?
> (sayeth the Volcano Suns). The DJ laughs,
> ?Tonight the L.A. Guns are playing?
> though business as usual is disrupted
> and Bush has not yet begun bombing
> (silent night, sooty night, 7 O?Clock news
.)
> ?Nuclear winter lasts millions of years
?
> 
> It?s that in-between crisis epiphany
> When folks are shaken to the root
> And may, if not for the news, question everything
> And since I?ve always been more concerned
> With the atrocities closer to me
> To the point where I run the risk of self-laceration,
> Biting the hand that feeds me
> When I?ve already eaten more than I can digest
> And, even in poetry circles, get called a ?native informer?
> For pointing out inconsistencies (that would be okay
> if they weren?t evident in those who claim to value consistency)
> In the ?avant? poetics of those who criticize
> What they call mainstream
> More than I lash out at the follies and fuck ups and (minor) atrocities
> Of those I would have to be less isolationalist
> And more imperialist to even meet,
> I see the news trying to tell me it?s my duty to be an imperialist.
> No more now, ?to defend freedom,? than ever.
> 
> And even if I?m all thumbs,
> I point my psychic sidekick gun at Bush,
> Enough of a yippee if not quite a hippie
> To allow you to say my bang flags, my blanks
> Are more like flowers than flags on tanks
> Enough of a punk and sort of a monk
> To know that the working title for the Clash?s
> Only top ten American hit (which ?coincidentally?
> Had anti-Arab sentiments) was ?rob the cashbox.?
> 
> Bush, you make Eisenhauer seem a peacenik by comparison
> (as if 5 little words, ?Beware the military industrial complex?
> could expiate his guilt, and erase 8 long years of ?Leave It To Beaver?
> while Beats and panthers bubbled beneath the Joneses
> even Baraka was at this point still trying to keep up with---
> who would?ve guessed that ground would seem more fertile 40 years later?)
> 
> Bush, I know it?s as bad for me to single you out
> As it is for you to single out that terrorist in Afghanistan
> And I know you are but an iceberg tip
> Of a military-post industrial complex
> Symbolized by the three buildings whose fire
> Gives proof through these days that you are still there,
> Bigger than ever, a complex bigger and older than you,
> Like Chaney perhaps, but bigger than him too
> 
> But now is not the time to address the faceless world incurious
> Much less to hail the chimp
> And I could even, if only for strategic reasons,
> Grant your heart, and the heart of those
> Who bought you the election, is in the right place,
> That you truly care about the safety of people like myself
> Who very well have been in the basement
> Of the towers transferring from the N and the R
> To the Path Train to get to my adjunct job at Rutgers
> Had I not been fortuitiously offered a better job
> Far enough from ground zero to worry about rolling blackouts

> 
> And that you would certainly not want to be mistaken
> For the kind of Christian who would crucify Christ
> Is perchance the second coming of the one and only God
> Were to happen as you say,
> And that that Bible you tote for the cameras
> Actually says ?thou shalt not kill
unless an Arab,
> Or unless he killed first
?
> 
> But did they kill first really??
> I?ll let someone like Dan Bouchard fill in the details
> With numerous historical examples by which the people
> Of your administration (to say nothing of your family)
> Were involved; suffice it to say I know
> And there?s evidence, there?s blood on your hands
> And now it?s not just foreign, not just enlisted.
> 
> The chickens haven?t quite come home to roost
> Because you?re alive, lucky as Fred, or just like Saddam
> If not the Iraqi civilians too poor to outsmart your bombs
> But they have come home to some who supported you---
> Though probably more who didn?t
> (since there were more janitors in the pentagon,
> More clerks in the trade towers,
> Than senators, lobbyists, and warriors)
> 
> And even if they were duped like my dad
> Not realizing the reason he was laid off
> Was close kin to the reason the stockmarket was up,
> And even if I?m duped by believing
> That killing the men who killed them
> Won?t make things any safer for us survivors
> And, if anything, can make things worse,
> I know that it is not too cool to be ridiculed
> (especially by most of the world?s population)
> but that you brought this upon yourself
> and the Wonder?s brilliant double negative
> makes me really wish you?d do nothing,
> make nothing happen like Auden (if not Pound?s) idea of poetry,
> submit your swords to Ploughshares magazine,
> your warfare to The Germ, or maybe even Fence,
> I mean the one you can sit on
> Between isolationalism and imperialism.
> 
> But, failing that, spit your bile out in a slam
> Even if the pen isn?t mightier.
> Oh, be weak and squishy, like Falstaff
> Or I as a lad when the neighbor boy came at me with fists
> And though I didn?t punch him in the fist with my face
> I ran home I?m proud to say
> While the roots of the ugly tree my dad chopped down
> Sprang up as 20 more---
> 
> We weren?t safe before, but now that we know it,
> What shall we do? And why should we listen to you?
> There?s no one else to listen to.
> You have the answer, you got the cure.
> The news is with you, but the becomes a
> And I suppose your guess is more or less as bad as mine
> As Thom Yorke holds his ?let Ralph debate? sign
> Like Dylan?s ?Watch Out? or ?Dig Yourself?
> And I do, pausing for gold, pausing for shit,
> Pausing for what I hope?s not mere wit
> Or the ?premature conspiracy theories?
> A new friend accuses me of?
> 
> For I know that during the long lean years
> That I have craved a stock market crash,
> A disruption of business as usual,
> And that there?s a side to me
> That would defend the Unabomber
> On the grounds he killed far less
> Than he did as a cog in the warmachine
> At respectable M.I.T
> 
> And I know this could be treason
> Were it not that I believe, as you
> Claim you do, that killing is wrong
> Even if by taking my position
> To its logical consequences,
> I?d probably be considered suicidal
> At least in a society where the death penalty
> Is more legal than euthanasia
> So I sympathize and forgive
> The man who kills in the heat of the moment, in self-defence,
> Much more than the political terror of the CIA
> Or whoever it was who hijacked those planes
> And may even (heaven forbid) be forced into that situation
> While I?m not feeling particularly ?unattached? to life
> 
> But you could counter, as you do,
> That since you stole, I mean, won, the public trust
> That you too are acting in self-defense
> But it?s not the heat of the moment, you know damn well,
> And you?ve been itchin? for military action since the day you got in,
> Pissing off China, Russia, Saddam, now this---
> How fortuitious, the economy: weak, your ratings:
> So-so; the tax cuts didn?t do it. Wag the dog, folks will rally.
> An old, old story, which Shakespeare doth tally

> 
> Even if you didn?t set them on, or know in advance
> As some say Roosevelt did about Pearl Harbor,
> Which, granted, doesn?t have anything on this,
> But to the extent Hitler?s crimes were against humanity
> Far more than property, you are not worthy
> To lick Roosevelt?s boots.
> 
> Even if you didn?t set them on,
> They were, as even the papers claim, CIA trained.
> You can dish it out but you can?t take it
> And this boomerang would be comic
> If the chickens had truly come home to roost
> And the hijacked planes would have only been filled
> With masters of war, and some little bird
> (illegal to feed in New York) would have warned
> each and every innocent civilian away
> from the towers and pentagon that Tuesday day.
> It didn?t happen, but the only way you could save your skin
> Was to get blood on your hands.
> 
> The enemy of my enemy may not be my friend,
> And since I do not know their intentions
> I cannot say if they missed their target,
> All I know is that they missed MY target,
> Which was not you so much as the forces
> (would they were farces) who speak through you,
> ignorant or evil I cannot say
> and that maybe I need to rethink
> my desire to see the market crash
> to disrupt business as usual
> for I cannot say I?m glad it?s happened
> but wish we lived in a land
> where the President wouldn?t have to wait
> to his final speech to cop to the existence
> of a military industrial complex,
> where Kaczinski?s anti-tech and anti-war statements
> could get on the cover of the New York Times
> without him having to become his own enemy by killing,
> and when I say we (or) you can dish it out but you can?t take it,
> I don?t mean we should be ?strong? enough to keep taking it
> As much as that we should use this opportunity
> To stop dishing it out


> 
> Chris Stroffolino
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
Terrorists blow up New York and you're angry at President Bush.  Thanks for
sharing your deep thoughts.

Paul Lake




From Rsgwynn1  Fri Sep 14 09:39:48 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:39:48 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: September 10, 2001
Message-ID: <156.f135a8.28d362a4@cs.com>

Chris, I don't see much ethical difference between your poem and what 
follows.  In these times it might be better to give blood, send money to the 
Red Cross, think of the victims, and buy a loaf of bread from the Arab guy 
who runs the local convenience store.  Sorry.

People For the American Way Statement on Divisive ... 

WASHINGTON, Sep 13, 2001 (U.S. Newswire via COMTEX) -- The following is a 
statement by People For the American Way president Ralph G. Neas on divisive 
comments by religious right leaders: I am deeply saddened that in the wake of 
this week's devastating terrorist attacks, Religious Right political leaders 
Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell have chosen the path of division rather than 
unity. At a time when political leaders of both parties are urging 
bipartisanship and national unity, it is truly unfortunate that Americans who 
watched today's edition of Pat Robertson's 700 Club television program 
received a far different message from Robertson and Falwell. This is a time 
for a shared national commitment to bringing those responsible for the 
terrorist attacks to justice. It is also a time to renew our commitment to 
protecting the constitutional liberties and democratic values that sustain 
our free society. Today's comments by Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell can 
only impede efforts to bring the nation together in pursuit of these goals. 
--- Below is a partial transcript of the 700 Club television program from 
Thursday, September 13, 2001. Also attached is a statement from People For 
the American Way President Ralph G. Neas. Partial transcript of comments from 
the Thursday, September 13, 2001 edition of the "700 Club": JERRY FALWELL: 
And I agree totally with you that the Lord has protected us so wonderfully 
these 225 years. And since 1812, this is the first time that we've been 
attacked on our soil and by far the worst results. And I fear, as Donald 
Rumsfeld, the Secretary of Defense, said yesterday, that this is only the 
beginning. And with biological warfare available to these monsters -- the 
Husseins, the Bin Ladens, the Arafats - what we saw on Tuesday, as terrible 
as it is, could be miniscule if, in fact -- if, in fact -- God continues to 
lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we 
deserve. PAT ROBERTSON: Jerry, that's my feeling. I think we've just seen the 
antechamber to terror. We haven't even begun to see what they can do to the 
major population. JERRY FALWELL: The ACLU's got to take a lot of blame for 
this. PAT ROBERTSON: Well, yes. JERRY FALWELL: And, I know that I'll hear 
from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the 
federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the 
schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God 
will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we 
make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the 
feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that 
an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way -- all of 
them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face 
and say "you helped this happen." PAT ROBERTSON: Well, I totally concur, and 
the problem is we have adopted that agenda at the highest levels of our 
government. And so we're responsible as a free society for what the top 
people do. And, the top people, of course, is the court system. JERRY 
FALWELL: Pat, did you notice yesterday the ACLU, and all the Christ-haters, 
People For the American Way, NOW, etc. were totally disregarded by the 
Democrats and the Republicans in both houses of Congress as they went out on 
the steps and called out on to God in prayer and sang "God Bless America" and 
said "let the ACLU be hanged"? In other words, when the nation is on its 
knees, the only normal and natural and spiritual thing to do is what we ought 
to be doing all the time -- calling upon God. PAT ROBERTSON: Amen. --- 
Statement by Ralph G. Neas President, People For the American Way September 
13, 2001 Like all Americans, we continue to struggle with the aftermath of 
the devastating terrorist attacks in New York City and at the Pentagon. We 
grieve for the victims of these heinous acts. We salute the courage and 
heroism of so many individuals, from passengers and crew on the hijacked 
airliners to the police, firefighters, and other rescue workers, many of whom 
have lost their lives in the line of duty. We praise those political leaders 
who have acted in ways that have drawn us together in the midst of 
overwhelming loss. This is a time for bipartisanship. It is a time for making 
a shared national commitment to bring to justice those responsible and for 
acting appropriately to prevent future such attacks. But there are other 
dangers we must guard against, as well as terrorists. While we seek to defend 
ourselves against future threats, we must also guard against allowing our own 
anger and fear to cause us to act against our own interests as a free people. 
We have already seen pundits and political leaders suggesting that the fight 
against terrorism requires us to sacrifice the constitutional liberties that 
are at the core of what it means to be an American. That would be a victory 
for our nation's enemies. We have already seen acts of harassment and 
violence directed against Arab- Americans and Muslim Americans. We call on 
all Americans to reject that kind of scapegoating and to stand up against it 
in their own communities. Targeting people based on their ethnicity or 
religion was not the American Way when Japanese-Americans were taken from 
their homes and shipped to internment camps during World War II. It is not 
the American Way today, when Muslim Americans are taunted or attacked on the 
streets of the country that is their home. People For the American Way's 
500,000 members and activists are guardians of the Constitution and the 
democratic values that sustain our free society. We will vigorously support 
the government's efforts to identify those responsible for these acts of 
terror and to bring them to justice. And we will just as vigorously oppose 
efforts to exploit this tragedy in ways that diminish the constitutional and 
civil rights for which generations of Americans -- in the armed forces and 
social justice movements -- have fought and died. Now, more than ever, we 
will act to promote and protect the ideals of the American Way. CONTACT: 
Jason Young or Jeremy Leaming, 202-467-4999 both of People For The American 
Wa Copyright (C) 2001
    
    


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From mackechnie  Fri Sep 14 09:52:10 2001
From: mackechnie (Russ MacKechnie)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:52:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stroffolino "Poem"
Message-ID: <LNBBLKJNOGEECDCCBGHNEEMLCNAA.mackechnie@email.msn.com>

	Whatever your aesthetics, whatever your politics, whatever your race,
creed, or national origin, however broad your view of the permissible
subject matter of art---no matter.  To turn Tuesday's outrage against my
city, my  relatives, my friends, my colleagues, my country, my fellow
countrymen into a naive, narcissistic political screed against Bush or,
anyone else, is an appalling outrage of its own.  Christ.  Wait a week
or so, please Chris, before you vent your empathetic rationales for the
perpetrators.  Your timing is appalling.  You are appalling.  You should
be profoundly ashamed.

	You wanted opinions?  I think your poem sucks.

			Russ MacKechnie




From JLogue  Fri Sep 14 10:08:01 2001
From: JLogue (Jason Logue)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 09:08:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stroffolino "Poem"
Message-ID: <535A1B304EA4D311A61C006097DB70770201245C@EGLSERVER>

This is the first time I've spoken on this list and probably the last, but I
feel that I have to now more than ever.

Chris,

My critique of your poem:

Puerile, disgusting drivel.  

-Jason Logue



-----Original Message-----
From: Russ MacKechnie [mailto:mackechnie at email.msn.com]
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 8:52 AM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stroffolino "Poem"


	Whatever your aesthetics, whatever your politics, whatever your
race,
creed, or national origin, however broad your view of the permissible
subject matter of art---no matter.  To turn Tuesday's outrage against my
city, my  relatives, my friends, my colleagues, my country, my fellow
countrymen into a naive, narcissistic political screed against Bush or,
anyone else, is an appalling outrage of its own.  Christ.  Wait a week
or so, please Chris, before you vent your empathetic rationales for the
perpetrators.  Your timing is appalling.  You are appalling.  You should
be profoundly ashamed.

	You wanted opinions?  I think your poem sucks.

			Russ MacKechnie

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From alphavil  Fri Sep 14 10:16:01 2001
From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:16:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Santayana, Santayana, Santayana
References: <20010914113618.5A22436F9@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <3BA21121.94A280B9@ix.netcom.com>

Americans cannot ignore what their government does abroad

            Special report: Terrorism in the US

            Seumas Milne
            Thursday September 13, 2001
            The Guardian

            Nearly two days after the horrific suicide attacks on civilian
workers in New York and Washington, it has become painfully clear that most
Americans simply don't get it. From the president to passersby on the
streets, the message seems to be the same: this is an inexplicable assault
on freedom and democracy, which must be answered with overwhelming force -
just as soon as someone can construct a credible account of who was actually
responsible.

            Shock, rage and grief there has been aplenty. But any glimmer of
recognition of why people might have been driven to carry out such
atrocities, sacrificing their own lives in the process - or why the United
States is hated with such bitterness, not only in Arab and Muslim countries,
but across the developing world - seems almost entirely absent. Perhaps it
is too much to hope that, as rescue workers struggle to pull firefighters
from the rubble, any but a small minority might make the connection between
what has been visited upon them and what their government has visited upon
large parts of the world.

            But make that connection they must, if such tragedies are not to
be repeated, potentially with even more devastating consequences. US
political leaders are doing their people no favours by reinforcing popular
ignorance with self-referential rhetoric. And the echoing chorus of Tony
Blair, whose determination to bind Britain ever closer to US foreign policy
ratchets up the threat to our own cities, will only fuel anti-western
sentiment. So will calls for the defence of "civilisation", with its
overtones of Samuel Huntington's poisonous theories of post-cold war
confrontation between the west and Islam, heightening perceptions of racism
and hypocrisy.

            As Mahatma Gandhi famously remarked when asked his opinion of
western civilisation, it would be a good idea. Since George Bush's father
inaugurated his new world order a decade ago, the US, supported by its
British ally, bestrides the world like a colossus. Unconstrained by any
superpower rival or system of global governance, the US giant has rewritten
the global financial and trading system in its own interest; ripped up a
string of treaties it finds inconvenient; sent troops to every corner of the
globe; bombed Afghanistan, Sudan, Yugoslavia and Iraq without troubling the
United Nations; maintained a string of murderous embargos against
recalcitrant regimes; and recklessly thrown its weight behind Israel's
34-year illegal military occupation of the West Bank and Gaza as the
Palestinian intifada rages.

            If, as yesterday's Wall Street Journal insisted, the east coast
carnage was the fruit of the Clinton administration's Munich-like
appeasement of the Palestinians, the mind boggles as to what US Republicans
imagine to be a Churchillian response.

            It is this record of unabashed national egotism and arrogance
that drives anti-Americanism among swaths of the world's population, for
whom there is little democracy in the current distribution of global wealth
and power. If it turns out that Tuesday's attacks were the work of Osama bin
Laden's supporters, the sense that the Americans are once again reaping a
dragons' teeth harvest they themselves sowed will be overwhelming.

            It was the Americans, after all, who poured resources into the
1980s war against the Soviet-backed regime in Kabul, at a time when girls
could go to school and women to work. Bin Laden and his mojahedin were armed
and trained by the CIA and MI6, as Afghanistan was turned into a wasteland
and its communist leader Najibullah left hanging from a Kabul lamp post with
his genitals stuffed in his mouth.

            But by then Bin Laden had turned against his American sponsors,
while US-sponsored Pakistani intelligence had spawned the grotesque Taliban
now protecting him. To punish its wayward Afghan offspring, the US
subsequently forced through a sanctions regime which has helped push 4m to
the brink of starvation, according to the latest UN figures, while Afghan
refugees fan out across the world.

            All this must doubtless seem remote to Americans desperately
searching the debris of what is expected to be the largest-ever massacre on
US soil - as must the killings of yet more Palestinians in the West Bank
yesterday, or even the 2m estimated to have died in Congo's wars since the
overthrow of the US-backed Mobutu regime. "What could some political thing
have to do with blowing up office buildings during working hours?" one
bewildered New Yorker asked yesterday.

            Already, the Bush administration is assembling an international
coalition for an Israeli-style war against terrorism, as if such
counter-productive acts of outrage had an existence separate from the social
conditions out of which they arise. But for every "terror network" that is
rooted out, another will emerge - until the injustices and inequalities that
produce them are addressed.






From tadrichards  Fri Sep 14 10:18:26 2001
From: tadrichards (theoldmole)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:18:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: September 10, 2001
References: <156.f135a8.28d362a4@cs.com>
Message-ID: <006101c13d28$d034ec40$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

Sam...this is chilling.

    
  Tad Richards                       "Well said, old mole."
    The Old Mole                         Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet 
    of the MoleNet                          Act I, Scene 5
          http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 9:39 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: September 10, 2001


  Chris, I don't see much ethical difference between your poem and what follows.  In these times it might be better to give blood, send money to the Red Cross, think of the victims, and buy a loaf of bread from the Arab guy who runs the local convenience store.  Sorry. 

  People For the American Way Statement on Divisive ... 

  WASHINGTON, Sep 13, 2001 (U.S. Newswire via COMTEX) -- The following is a statement by People For the American Way president Ralph G. Neas on divisive comments by religious right leaders: I am deeply saddened that in the wake of this week's devastating terrorist attacks, Religious Right political leaders Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell have chosen the path of division rather than unity. At a time when political leaders of both parties are urging bipartisanship and national unity, it is truly unfortunate that Americans who watched today's edition of Pat Robertson's 700 Club television program received a far different message from Robertson and Falwell. This is a time for a shared national commitment to bringing those responsible for the terrorist attacks to justice. It is also a time to renew our commitment to protecting the constitutional liberties and democratic values that sustain our free society. Today's comments by Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell can only impede eff! orts to bring the nation together in pursuit of these goals. --- Below is a partial transcript of the 700 Club television program from Thursday, September 13, 2001. Also attached is a statement from People For the American Way President Ralph G. Neas. Partial transcript of comments from the Thursday, September 13, 2001 edition of the "700 Club": JERRY FALWELL: And I agree totally with you that the Lord has protected us so wonderfully these 225 years. And since 1812, this is the first time that we've been attacked on our soil and by far the worst results. And I fear, as Donald Rumsfeld, the Secretary of Defense, said yesterday, that this is only the beginning. And with biological warfare available to these monsters -- the Husseins, the Bin Ladens, the Arafats - what we saw on Tuesday, as terrible as it is, could be miniscule if, in fact -- if, in fact -- God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve. PAT ROBERTSON: Jerr! y, that's my feeling. I think we've just seen the antechamber to terror. We haven't even begun to see what they can do to the major population. JERRY FALWELL: The ACLU's got to take a lot of blame for this. PAT ROBERTSON: Well, yes. JERRY FALWELL: And, I know that I'll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say "you helped this happen." PAT ROBERTSON: Well, I totally concur, and the problem is we have adop! ted that agenda at the highest levels of our government. And so we're responsible as a free society for what the top people do. And, the top people, of course, is the court system. JERRY FALWELL: Pat, did you notice yesterday the ACLU, and all the Christ-haters, People For the American Way, NOW, etc. were totally disregarded by the Democrats and the Republicans in both houses of Congress as they went out on the steps and called out on to God in prayer and sang "God Bless America" and said "let the ACLU be hanged"? In other words, when the nation is on its knees, the only normal and natural and spiritual thing to do is what we ought to be doing all the time -- calling upon God. PAT ROBERTSON: Amen. --- Statement by Ralph G. Neas President, People For the American Way September 13, 2001 Like all Americans, we continue to struggle with the aftermath of the devastating terrorist attacks in New York City and at the Pentagon. We grieve for the victims of these heinous acts. We sal! ute the courage and heroism of so many individuals, from passengers and crew on the hijacked airliners to the police, firefighters, and other rescue workers, many of whom have lost their lives in the line of duty. We praise those political leaders who have acted in ways that have drawn us together in the midst of overwhelming loss. This is a time for bipartisanship. It is a time for making a shared national commitment to bring to justice those responsible and for acting appropriately to prevent future such attacks. But there are other dangers we must guard against, as well as terrorists. While we seek to defend ourselves against future threats, we must also guard against allowing our own anger and fear to cause us to act against our own interests as a free people. We have already seen pundits and political leaders suggesting that the fight against terrorism requires us to sacrifice the constitutional liberties that are at the core of what it means to be an American. That wou! ld be a victory for our nation's enemies. We have already seen acts of harassment and violence directed against Arab- Americans and Muslim Americans. We call on all Americans to reject that kind of scapegoating and to stand up against it in their own communities. Targeting people based on their ethnicity or religion was not the American Way when Japanese-Americans were taken from their homes and shipped to internment camps during World War II. It is not the American Way today, when Muslim Americans are taunted or attacked on the streets of the country that is their home. People For the American Way's 500,000 members and activists are guardians of the Constitution and the democratic values that sustain our free society. We will vigorously support the government's efforts to identify those responsible for these acts of terror and to bring them to justice. And we will just as vigorously oppose efforts to exploit this tragedy in ways that diminish the constitutional and civil ri! ghts for which generations of Americans -- in the armed forces and social justice movements -- have fought and died. Now, more than ever, we will act to promote and protect the ideals of the American Way. CONTACT: Jason Young or Jeremy Leaming, 202-467-4999 both of People For The American Wa Copyright (C) 2001 




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From msnider  Fri Sep 14 10:35:02 2001
From: msnider (Michael Snider)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:35:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: September 10, 2001
In-Reply-To: <156.f135a8.28d362a4@cs.com>
Message-ID: <200109141438.KAA10390@hall.mail.mindspring.net>

Thank you, Sam.

On Friday, September 14, 2001, at 09:39 AM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

> In these times it might be better to give blood, send money to the Red 
> Cross, think of the victims, and buy a loaf of bread from the Arab guy 
> who runs the local convenience store.
>



From mmagee  Fri Sep 14 10:54:46 2001
From: mmagee (Michael Magee)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:54:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stroffo's poem & critiques
In-Reply-To: <3BA1D73C.8FD4EFD@earthlink.net> from "Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino" at Sep 14, 2001 03:09:00 am
Message-ID: <200109141454.KAA06651@dept.english.upenn.edu>

Chris, and the guy - sorry I deleted and can't remeber name - who said
Chris's poem sucked and that Chris shouldn't have posted it, etc., and
all:

As a poem, well, I think Chris has always had the rhetoric to be
simultaneously honest and performative and this is a great thing for
tacking serious, in this case political, "issues."  But the merits of the
poem is not really what I'd like to talk about at the moment.  I think
there's a danger, a big one really, of "protecting" the U.S. at the
expense of anything that is actually worthwhile about American culture.
This danger has always been around - it was central of course in the
debates regarding whether to go forward with the Civil War.  In that
context, Emerson once wrote to Oliver Wendell Homles:

"The cant of union like the cant of extending the area of liberty by
annexing Texas & Mexico is too transparent for its most impudent repeater
to hope to deceive you.  And for the Union with Slavery no manly person
will suffer a day to go by without discrediting disintegrating & finally
exploding it.  The 'union' they talk of is dead and rotten, the real
union, that is, the will to keep & renew union, is like the will to keep &
renew life, & this alone gives any tension to the dead letter & if we have
broken every several inch of the old wooden hoop will still hold us
staunch."

I'm personally very uncomfortable with the great foregrounding of
"patriotism" going on right now in the absence of any honest discussion
of what democracy is and what must be preserved - at *all* times - in
order for it to function in even the most rudimentary, acceptable way.  To
me, it makes sense that, as hard as it might seem emotionally, and in
particular for the families of victims etc, we need to be including in our
discussions of this incident the fact that it was *us* (U.S.) who
originally funded and armed Osama Bin Laden to the teeth, that, as
Christopher Hitchens has recently proved so meticulously and conclusively,
Henry Kissinger waged a long terrorist campaign (there really is no other
word for it) from the White House, to say nothing of Reagan/Bush 
activities in Latin America, etc etc etc -- and that as a result of this
Bad History terrorists have "evidence" which, if you tilt your perspective
a bit, allows them to rationalize major atrocities like the ones we
witnessed this week.

A democracy worth preserving needs to face these facts honestly at all
times, including those most difficult.  Giving it a rest for a week is
emotionally easier - perhaps even more compassionate, yes surely, but
politically, and I dare say poetically, it's the wrong thing to do.

In regard to poems, at this moment I think of Williams: the seriousness,
the attention he brought to his use of words: poets, don't traffic in a
word like "Patriotism" unless you really know what that word is doing and
unless you're willing to put the *effort* into restling that word away
from those who would use it to impede, circumscribe, indeed stamp out what
Williams called "The Pleasures of Democracy" (his alternate title for AL
QUE QUIERE!).

So anyway, it seems to me Chris had some of these things in mind in
composing his poem.  If he "went overboard," if he took risks which didn't
quite pan out (it was a draft after all), it was done with good
intentions.

I say this while I plan to read some rather unpatriotic (from a certain
perspective) poems from my new book _Morning Constitional_ tonight at the
Brookline Booksmith.  We'll see how it goes...Would of couse love to see
any and all of you there.

-m.
           
 According to Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino:
> 
> Dear friends, etc....
> 
> This is very rough (as a poem at least), but I thought I'd share this....
> (any comments, aesthetic or ethical, political, pos. or neg., welcome----)
> 
> Chris
> 
> 
> Social Solipsism: A Perverse Response to Recent Tragedy
> 
> Proof at last America is not an isolationalist!
> 
> Though you?d never guess it by recent reports
> There?s a war going on between
> ?will the circle (of violence) be unbroken?
> and ?I?m mad as hell & I?m not going to take it anymore?
> 
> I had thoroughly repressed my nostalgia for New York these last two months
> (not so much by proactively making new memories here
> as by curbing further curiosities until I began to digest
> what for years sat stranded on the tastebuds)
> until thefire?s gray glare on my black and white TV
> gave proof through the morn the towers weren?t there.
> 
> Now, I almost envy my friends there, I long.
> It?s like they all sent me this giant ?wish you were here? postcard.
> Sure, none of them have yet come forth
> To tell me of the death of someone close
> And some were awfully lucky
> Like Fred who works there & never oversleeps,
> Who on this one day did.
> 
> But even if one has died,
> I wave no flag but dig out the peacesign
> To wear like a bible over my breast pocket
> To prevent the bullet of the flags
> >From flapping in my face.
> I wear the button like a finger
> That could become a hand
> If 4 others joined me in flipping its bird at Bush.
> 
> This is what I think it meant to be a hippy-punk
> When his dad?s ?kinder, gentler? war-itch
> Hadn?t yet latched on Saddam:
> ?I?m in love with everyone?
> but don?t go putting flowers in my gun?
> (sayeth the Volcano Suns). The DJ laughs,
> ?Tonight the L.A. Guns are playing?
> though business as usual is disrupted
> and Bush has not yet begun bombing
> (silent night, sooty night, 7 O?Clock news?.)
> ?Nuclear winter lasts millions of years??
> 
> It?s that in-between crisis epiphany
> When folks are shaken to the root
> And may, if not for the news, question everything
> And since I?ve always been more concerned
> With the atrocities closer to me
> To the point where I run the risk of self-laceration,
> Biting the hand that feeds me
> When I?ve already eaten more than I can digest
> And, even in poetry circles, get called a ?native informer?
> For pointing out inconsistencies (that would be okay
> if they weren?t evident in those who claim to value consistency)
> In the ?avant? poetics of those who criticize
> What they call mainstream
> More than I lash out at the follies and fuck ups and (minor) atrocities
> Of those I would have to be less isolationalist
> And more imperialist to even meet,
> I see the news trying to tell me it?s my duty to be an imperialist.
> No more now, ?to defend freedom,? than ever.
> 
> And even if I?m all thumbs,
> I point my psychic sidekick gun at Bush,
> Enough of a yippee if not quite a hippie
> To allow you to say my bang flags, my blanks
> Are more like flowers than flags on tanks
> Enough of a punk and sort of a monk
> To know that the working title for the Clash?s
> Only top ten American hit (which ?coincidentally?
> Had anti-Arab sentiments) was ?rob the cashbox.?
> 
> Bush, you make Eisenhauer seem a peacenik by comparison
> (as if 5 little words, ?Beware the military industrial complex?
> could expiate his guilt, and erase 8 long years of ?Leave It To Beaver?
> while Beats and panthers bubbled beneath the Joneses
> even Baraka was at this point still trying to keep up with---
> who would?ve guessed that ground would seem more fertile 40 years later?)
> 
> Bush, I know it?s as bad for me to single you out
> As it is for you to single out that terrorist in Afghanistan
> And I know you are but an iceberg tip
> Of a military-post industrial complex
> Symbolized by the three buildings whose fire
> Gives proof through these days that you are still there,
> Bigger than ever, a complex bigger and older than you,
> Like Chaney perhaps, but bigger than him too
> 
> But now is not the time to address the faceless world incurious
> Much less to hail the chimp
> And I could even, if only for strategic reasons,
> Grant your heart, and the heart of those
> Who bought you the election, is in the right place,
> That you truly care about the safety of people like myself
> Who very well have been in the basement
> Of the towers transferring from the N and the R
> To the Path Train to get to my adjunct job at Rutgers
> Had I not been fortuitiously offered a better job
> Far enough from ground zero to worry about rolling blackouts?
> 
> And that you would certainly not want to be mistaken
> For the kind of Christian who would crucify Christ
> Is perchance the second coming of the one and only God
> Were to happen as you say,
> And that that Bible you tote for the cameras
> Actually says ?thou shalt not kill?unless an Arab,
> Or unless he killed first??
> 
> But did they kill first really??
> I?ll let someone like Dan Bouchard fill in the details
> With numerous historical examples by which the people
> Of your administration (to say nothing of your family)
> Were involved; suffice it to say I know
> And there?s evidence, there?s blood on your hands
> And now it?s not just foreign, not just enlisted.
> 
> The chickens haven?t quite come home to roost
> Because you?re alive, lucky as Fred, or just like Saddam
> If not the Iraqi civilians too poor to outsmart your bombs
> But they have come home to some who supported you---
> Though probably more who didn?t
> (since there were more janitors in the pentagon,
> More clerks in the trade towers,
> Than senators, lobbyists, and warriors)
> 
> And even if they were duped like my dad
> Not realizing the reason he was laid off
> Was close kin to the reason the stockmarket was up,
> And even if I?m duped by believing
> That killing the men who killed them
> Won?t make things any safer for us survivors
> And, if anything, can make things worse,
> I know that it is not too cool to be ridiculed
> (especially by most of the world?s population)
> but that you brought this upon yourself
> and the Wonder?s brilliant double negative
> makes me really wish you?d do nothing,
> make nothing happen like Auden (if not Pound?s) idea of poetry,
> submit your swords to Ploughshares magazine,
> your warfare to The Germ, or maybe even Fence,
> I mean the one you can sit on
> Between isolationalism and imperialism.
> 
> But, failing that, spit your bile out in a slam
> Even if the pen isn?t mightier.
> Oh, be weak and squishy, like Falstaff
> Or I as a lad when the neighbor boy came at me with fists
> And though I didn?t punch him in the fist with my face
> I ran home I?m proud to say
> While the roots of the ugly tree my dad chopped down
> Sprang up as 20 more---
> 
> We weren?t safe before, but now that we know it,
> What shall we do? And why should we listen to you?
> There?s no one else to listen to.
> You have the answer, you got the cure.
> The news is with you, but the becomes a
> And I suppose your guess is more or less as bad as mine
> As Thom Yorke holds his ?let Ralph debate? sign
> Like Dylan?s ?Watch Out? or ?Dig Yourself?
> And I do, pausing for gold, pausing for shit,
> Pausing for what I hope?s not mere wit
> Or the ?premature conspiracy theories?
> A new friend accuses me of?
> 
> For I know that during the long lean years
> That I have craved a stock market crash,
> A disruption of business as usual,
> And that there?s a side to me
> That would defend the Unabomber
> On the grounds he killed far less
> Than he did as a cog in the warmachine
> At respectable M.I.T
> 
> And I know this could be treason
> Were it not that I believe, as you
> Claim you do, that killing is wrong
> Even if by taking my position
> To its logical consequences,
> I?d probably be considered suicidal
> At least in a society where the death penalty
> Is more legal than euthanasia
> So I sympathize and forgive
> The man who kills in the heat of the moment, in self-defence,
> Much more than the political terror of the CIA
> Or whoever it was who hijacked those planes
> And may even (heaven forbid) be forced into that situation
> While I?m not feeling particularly ?unattached? to life
> 
> But you could counter, as you do,
> That since you stole, I mean, won, the public trust
> That you too are acting in self-defense
> But it?s not the heat of the moment, you know damn well,
> And you?ve been itchin? for military action since the day you got in,
> Pissing off China, Russia, Saddam, now this---
> How fortuitious, the economy: weak, your ratings:
> So-so; the tax cuts didn?t do it. Wag the dog, folks will rally.
> An old, old story, which Shakespeare doth tally?
> 
> Even if you didn?t set them on, or know in advance
> As some say Roosevelt did about Pearl Harbor,
> Which, granted, doesn?t have anything on this,
> But to the extent Hitler?s crimes were against humanity
> Far more than property, you are not worthy
> To lick Roosevelt?s boots.
> 
> Even if you didn?t set them on,
> They were, as even the papers claim, CIA trained.
> You can dish it out but you can?t take it
> And this boomerang would be comic
> If the chickens had truly come home to roost
> And the hijacked planes would have only been filled
> With masters of war, and some little bird
> (illegal to feed in New York) would have warned
> each and every innocent civilian away
> from the towers and pentagon that Tuesday day.
> It didn?t happen, but the only way you could save your skin
> Was to get blood on your hands.
> 
> The enemy of my enemy may not be my friend,
> And since I do not know their intentions
> I cannot say if they missed their target,
> All I know is that they missed MY target,
> Which was not you so much as the forces
> (would they were farces) who speak through you,
> ignorant or evil I cannot say
> and that maybe I need to rethink
> my desire to see the market crash
> to disrupt business as usual
> for I cannot say I?m glad it?s happened
> but wish we lived in a land
> where the President wouldn?t have to wait
> to his final speech to cop to the existence
> of a military industrial complex,
> where Kaczinski?s anti-tech and anti-war statements
> could get on the cover of the New York Times
> without him having to become his own enemy by killing,
> and when I say we (or) you can dish it out but you can?t take it,
> I don?t mean we should be ?strong? enough to keep taking it
> As much as that we should use this opportunity
> To stop dishing it out??
> 
> Chris Stroffolino
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 




From mmagee  Fri Sep 14 11:02:25 2001
From: mmagee (Michael Magee)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:02:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stroffo's poem & critiques
In-Reply-To: <200109141454.KAA06651@dept.english.upenn.edu> from "Michael Magee" at Sep 14, 2001 10:54:46 am
Message-ID: <200109141502.LAA08857@dept.english.upenn.edu>

Christ, I spelled the name of my own book wrong - that's Constitutional,
with a U.  -m.

According to Michael Magee:
> I say this while I plan to read some rather unpatriotic (from a certain
> perspective) poems from my new book _Morning Constitional_ tonight at the
> Brookline Booksmith.  We'll see how it goes...Would of couse love to see
> any and all of you there.
> 
> -m.
>            



From Henry_Gould  Fri Sep 14 11:04:50 2001
From: Henry_Gould (Henry Gould)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:04:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Santayana, Santayana, Santayana
In-Reply-To: <3BA21121.94A280B9@ix.netcom.com>
References: <20010914113618.5A22436F9@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010914105606.00a958d0@postoffice.brown.edu>

Gee, the Guardian fellow is supercilious about Americans' sense of 
bewilderment the day after.
I guess we should have just shrugged our shoulders at the cost of doing 
imperialism & causing
all the evil & violence in the world.   Hmm, what insight!

Henry


********************************************************
HG afloat:  www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html
www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark
    "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam





From TerryP17  Fri Sep 14 11:11:24 2001
From: TerryP17 (TerryP17 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 11:11:24 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Stroffolino "Poem"
Message-ID: <12c.483c975.28d3781c@aol.com>

Russ Mackechnie wrote:

<<You wanted opinions?  I think your poem sucks.>>

A fine, succinct, well-written piece of first-rate literary criticism. Same also applies to "R. Gancie's" predictable anti-US rants. People who find Tuesday's atrocities justifiable in any way, well, I have a poet-friend in NYC who's also a Freudian analyst, and I'm sure I can arrange for a consultation. 

On the other hand, much appreciation for the posters who've uncovered some really fine and moving poetry pertinent to the topic.

--Terry Ponick



From GrahamD  Fri Sep 14 11:27:25 2001
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 10:27:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Reading the news
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDEE3@mail.ripon.edu>

Reading the News and Thinking of the T'ang Poets

When Li Po tried to climb T'ai-hang,
he found its passes choked with snow.
Thwarted, he turned back to lowlands,
to streams sliding through bare willows
where he sat and fished and wrote a poem.
When young, he was a *hsia* avenger,
righting wrongs with a spoon-headed sword.
Old, he settled things by sitting still.

*

Before the rebels took Ch'ang-an,
Tu Fu escaped the fabled city
where Christian, Jew, and Manichaean
held court with Buddhists. The Emperor,
who wrote lyrics and composed, had fled.
Months later, crossing moonlit fields
stippled bright with human bones,
Tu Fu wrote that poetry is useless,
in a poem alive these thousand years.

*

Today our news is much the same.
Near Srebrenica, skulls dot fields
like cabbages, while in Rwanda,
the short tribe hacked up the tall.
"Blood is smeared on bush and grass,"
yet poetry persists through slaughter,
as if the systoles in our raging hearts
held rhythms that could heal, if heard.

____________
John Balaban
Locusts at the Edge of Summer:
New & Selected Poems
Copper Canyon Press

===================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
===================



From alphavil  Fri Sep 14 12:29:01 2001
From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 12:29:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Terry, Terry, Terry, the Agitprop Queen
References: <12c.483c975.28d3781c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3BA2304D.B7FA0EF0@ix.netcom.com>

Your inability to respond in substance is the most telling aspect of your posts. Calling pieces "rants" that are otherwise measured and full of historical fact?--also telling. "Mine" as opposed to recognizing the actual authors and their work? What does anyone do with that level of dishonesty? You can't
isolate me so easily. And smug references to Freud whom I'm certain you haven't read either, and in other contexts would admit to despising, also displays a fundamental dishonesty that is reflected in your poetic taste. More history below. Carlo Parcelli

Blowback!
By Jeff Sommers


In CIA parlance missions that are ?successful? create backlashes. The
CIA aptly calls this ?Blowback.?

At the end of WW II the US took empire from a weakened Britain and
France. Among the first casualties was East Europe, which was sacrificed
on the mantle of superpower relations.  That same deal between
superpowers saw Greece put down by England and the US, with Soviet
compliance. The Soviets and the West also concluded that the people of
both their respective spheres would be put down if necessary in the
interests of ?stability.? Democracy on both sides of the Cold War divide
was shelved.

The US maintained order during its tenure of hegemony through use of
both covert and overt operations that helped signal the very blowback we
witnessed on the 11th. In 1953 Allen Dulles, brother of Secretary of
State John Foster Dulles, thought it clever to maintain order in Iran by
overthrowing its democratically elected leader, Mohammed Mossadegh. The
popular Mossadegh ?erred? when he decided Iran?s oil belonged to Iran
and not the multi-national corporations who held ?rights? to it. He
nationalized Iran?s oil. Allen Dulles sent in the CIA with suitcases
full of money (the CIA had no oversight and so could spend liberally) to
destabilize the government. They sent their agent Kim Roosevelt to
remove Mossadegh. Kim Roosevelt was the grandson of that famous defender
of the Spanish American War that brought the US no end of blowback.
General H. Norman Schwarzkopf accom panied him?no, not the General we
all know who commanded US forces in the Persian Gulf war, but his
father. Schwarzkopf trained the Shah of Iran?s secret police in all
sorts and manners of techniques that brutal dictatorships employ against
their citizens. This bought ?stability? and the return of oil to its
?rightful? owners. The US oil companies got 40%, the Brits 40%, the
Dutch 14% and the French 6%. Yet, in overthrowing Mossadegh a
25-year-long period of repression was launched against dissenters in
Iran with significant blowback for all parties concerned. Most
significantly this created a radical Islamic fundamentalist response
that led to the rise of the Ayatollah Khomeni. In part, yesterday?s
tragedy is blowback from Washington policies executed 50 years back.

During the 1980s the US found another opportunity for CIA mischief in
the Middle East. In 1978 the Soviet Union frowned upon the more radical
Marxist government that arose on its border in Afghanistan. Given that
the Soviets cynically wielded terms like ?Marxism? in the same way the
US has often done with ?democracy,? the Soviets felt no compunction
about overthrowing a radical Marxist government with democratic
impulses. As a superpower it sought obedience. The Soviets installed a
government in Afghanistan loyal to themselves and would suffer blowback
that in part led to the very dissolution of the USSR.

Coming off its own failed decades long attempt to install and maintain
unpopular governments in Vietnam, the US was bemused by the Soviets
finding themselves in a similar situation in Afghanistan. Among
opponents of the Soviet backed regime in Afghanistan were Islamic
fundamentalists. The CIA fanned the flames of fundamentalist fervor in
order to fuel the ant-Soviet Afghani movement, the Mujahadeen. Yet, here
too there would be blowback. When the Soviet Union collapsed the highly
motivated fundamentalist force the US helped create and train in covert
operations (the stuff of terrorism) they now turned their sights on
their former benefactor. The marriage between Afghani fundamentalists
and the CIA was purely one of convenience. When no longer ?convenient?
these highly-trained militants could now turn on that other source of
misery in the Middle East: the US. Again, this was blowback.

This begs the question of why the US was perceived as a source of ?evil?
by Islamic extremists? We are all familiar with the reasons.  A decade
of bombing and embargoes have left Iraq?s electric, water, and health
infrastructure in tatters. Saddam Hussein remains in power, but millions
live in abject misery, and the United Nations? own data shows over
700,000 children having died as a consequence of these US measures
against Iraq. The Iraqi leadership has been unaffected. Hussein has
punished the Kurds in the north of Iraq with impunity and the Shiite
Muslims of the south treated to Hussein?s bloody fist too. Yet, Iraq did
not dissolve into separate nations. This was the goal of US policy. This
has been achieved at a terrible human cost and is another reason for
blowback against the US.

The specter of US policy toward Israel continues to haunt America.
Copious amounts of aid flows liberally to the Israeli government and
spills out into Palestinian communities in the form of state violence.
But, peace between Israel and Egypt is critical to Middle East
stability. The US gets little of its oil from the Middle East, but US
oil companies are present there and more importantly oil must flow
freely and predictably for the smooth functioning of the global economy
over which the US presides. Palestinians homes are routinely bulldozed
and its people live under military occupation. When the Arabic nations
try and address this matter civilly in the United Nations, as they just
tried last week at the Durban conference, they are rebuffed by the US.
Consequently, Palestinian children greet with delight the news of
thousands of innocent people dying in the US on the 11th. This is
blowback.

America will make many choices in the near future regarding how to
engage the US. Let?s hope it remembers that actions have consequences.
Jingoistic responses can backfire. Blowback might erupt quickly, or
simmer for decades. When it strikes the consequences are devastating. We
are poised to escalate the violence or begin to plumb the depths of our
history in ways that might reveal how we can end these cascading series
of tragedies. Hopefully, reason will prevail.




Michael Albert
Z Magazine / ZNet
sysop at zmag.org
www.zmag.org




TerryP17 at aol.com wrote:

> Russ Mackechnie wrote:
>
> <<You wanted opinions?  I think your poem sucks.>>
>
> A fine, succinct, well-written piece of first-rate literary criticism. Same also applies to "R. Gancie's" predictable anti-US rants. People who find Tuesday's atrocities justifiable in any way, well, I have a poet-friend in NYC who's also a Freudian analyst, and I'm sure I can arrange for a consultation.
>
> On the other hand, much appreciation for the posters who've uncovered some really fine and moving poetry pertinent to the topic.
>
> --Terry Ponick
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From gmcvay  Fri Sep 14 13:11:34 2001
From: gmcvay (Gwyn McVay)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:11:34 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] All The People, Mommy, All The People]
Message-ID: <3BA23A42.FD51EF9B@patriot.net>

Hope this one doesn't suck. Not anti-anybody.
 
// surround italics
 
> ---
> 
> All The People, Mommy, All The People
> 
> Our soldiers die twice every morning.
> Officers fly out of windows, support
> poison gas with their bodies. Ashes, ashes.
> I don?t need to say /all fall down./
> 
> Jealous trouble when concrete gets wet,
> weakens, the lover of steel glows too bright.
> Everybody?s a metallurgist.
> Everybody?s an architect,
> wise now, /square donut/ is the word
> to explain the failure of each Tarot-card tower.
> 
> I could marry a ceramic knife.
> I could grow a clean body,
> 
> spare, pure white, pour sacrifice
> down the uniform of jelly, of napalm.
> All the people, Mommy, all the people.
> 
> Abbie Hoffman rails in his grave:
> /I only meant to levitate,
> never smash. Wrong is wrong./ And he?s right.
> Secretaries at the Pentagon,
> pouring coffee to get through, and suddenly bright day
> ruptures late, and no more worry.
> You could build a lake in that hole
> the shape of an airplane, name it Lake Promise
> 
> for the bomb dogs killed with their handlers,
> for the mimic smoke above mosques in the Midwest,
> for the young man filled with promise at flight school.
> A cut that never cures. We are all Fisher Kings
> with Lear?s Cordelia, too, but no throne.
> All the people, Mommy. Can my feet burst?
> 
> Can the ground with grass burst under me?
> 
> ----
> 
> 2001 * Gwyn McVay



From FanwoodJEL  Fri Sep 14 13:00:53 2001
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:00:53 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] ceremony
Message-ID: <12.1269d917.28d391c5@aol.com>

All, I've been asked to read at a flag lowering ceremony later today and have in mind a poem by Jane Hirshfied, but have only excerpts:

*With every mouthful; something more torn open. . .

Here is a soul, accetping nothing.
Not this, is all it knows. Not this.
As certain as cut flowers refuse to drink in the vase.

And the heart, from its great distance, watches, helpless.*

Does anyone have, can post, the entire poem. 

Thanks much,
Jeffrey



From msnider  Fri Sep 14 13:01:24 2001
From: msnider (Michael Snider)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:01:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Terry, Terry, Terry, the Agitprop Queen
In-Reply-To: <3BA2304D.B7FA0EF0@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <200109141705.NAA05946@granger.mail.mindspring.net>

No reasonable person claims the US has no made heinous errors in the 
years since WWII, many of which cost the lives of innocent people -- but 
they were errors, not the deliberate murder of 5,000 people.  Your 
inability to make that distinction shows that you do indeed live in 
hell -- and it has nothing to do with your DC address.

On Friday, September 14, 2001, at 12:29 PM, R.Gancie/C.Parcelli wrote:

> Your inability to respond in substance is the most telling aspect of 
> your posts. Calling pieces "rants" that are otherwise measured and full 
> of historical fact?--also telling. "Mine" as opposed to recognizing the 
> actual authors and their work? What does anyone do with that level of 
> dishonesty? You can't
> isolate me so easily. And smug references to Freud whom I'm certain you 
> haven't read either, and in other contexts would admit to despising, 
> also displays a fundamental dishonesty that is reflected in your poetic 
> taste. More history below. Carlo Parcelli
>
> Blowback!
> By Jeff Sommers
>
>
> In CIA parlance missions that are ?successful? create backlashes. The
> CIA aptly calls this ?Blowback.?
>
> At the end of WW II the US took empire from a weakened Britain and
> France. Among the first casualties was East Europe, which was sacrificed
> on the mantle of superpower relations.  That same deal between
> superpowers saw Greece put down by England and the US, with Soviet
> compliance. The Soviets and the West also concluded that the people of
> both their respective spheres would be put down if necessary in the
> interests of ?stability.? Democracy on both sides of the Cold War divide
> was shelved.
>
> The US maintained order during its tenure of hegemony through use of
> both covert and overt operations that helped signal the very blowback we
> witnessed on the 11th. In 1953 Allen Dulles, brother of Secretary of
> State John Foster Dulles, thought it clever to maintain order in Iran by
> overthrowing its democratically elected leader, Mohammed Mossadegh. The
> popular Mossadegh ?erred? when he decided Iran?s oil belonged to Iran
> and not the multi-national corporations who held ?rights? to it. He
> nationalized Iran?s oil. Allen Dulles sent in the CIA with suitcases
> full of money (the CIA had no oversight and so could spend liberally) to
> destabilize the government. They sent their agent Kim Roosevelt to
> remove Mossadegh. Kim Roosevelt was the grandson of that famous defender
> of the Spanish American War that brought the US no end of blowback.
> General H. Norman Schwarzkopf accom panied him?no, not the General we
> all know who commanded US forces in the Persian Gulf war, but his
> father. Schwarzkopf trained the Shah of Iran?s secret police in all
> sorts and manners of techniques that brutal dictatorships employ against
> their citizens. This bought ?stability? and the return of oil to its
> ?rightful? owners. The US oil companies got 40%, the Brits 40%, the
> Dutch 14% and the French 6%. Yet, in overthrowing Mossadegh a
> 25-year-long period of repression was launched against dissenters in
> Iran with significant blowback for all parties concerned. Most
> significantly this created a radical Islamic fundamentalist response
> that led to the rise of the Ayatollah Khomeni. In part, yesterday?s
> tragedy is blowback from Washington policies executed 50 years back.
>
> During the 1980s the US found another opportunity for CIA mischief in
> the Middle East. In 1978 the Soviet Union frowned upon the more radical
> Marxist government that arose on its border in Afghanistan. Given that
> the Soviets cynically wielded terms like ?Marxism? in the same way the
> US has often done with ?democracy,? the Soviets felt no compunction
> about overthrowing a radical Marxist government with democratic
> impulses. As a superpower it sought obedience. The Soviets installed a
> government in Afghanistan loyal to themselves and would suffer blowback
> that in part led to the very dissolution of the USSR.
>
> Coming off its own failed decades long attempt to install and maintain
> unpopular governments in Vietnam, the US was bemused by the Soviets
> finding themselves in a similar situation in Afghanistan. Among
> opponents of the Soviet backed regime in Afghanistan were Islamic
> fundamentalists. The CIA fanned the flames of fundamentalist fervor in
> order to fuel the ant-Soviet Afghani movement, the Mujahadeen. Yet, here
> too there would be blowback. When the Soviet Union collapsed the highly
> motivated fundamentalist force the US helped create and train in covert
> operations (the stuff of terrorism) they now turned their sights on
> their former benefactor. The marriage between Afghani fundamentalists
> and the CIA was purely one of convenience. When no longer ?convenient?
> these highly-trained militants could now turn on that other source of
> misery in the Middle East: the US. Again, this was blowback.
>
> This begs the question of why the US was perceived as a source of ?evil?
> by Islamic extremists? We are all familiar with the reasons.  A decade
> of bombing and embargoes have left Iraq?s electric, water, and health
> infrastructure in tatters. Saddam Hussein remains in power, but millions
> live in abject misery, and the United Nations? own data shows over
> 700,000 children having died as a consequence of these US measures
> against Iraq. The Iraqi leadership has been unaffected. Hussein has
> punished the Kurds in the north of Iraq with impunity and the Shiite
> Muslims of the south treated to Hussein?s bloody fist too. Yet, Iraq did
> not dissolve into separate nations. This was the goal of US policy. This
> has been achieved at a terrible human cost and is another reason for
> blowback against the US.
>
> The specter of US policy toward Israel continues to haunt America.
> Copious amounts of aid flows liberally to the Israeli government and
> spills out into Palestinian communities in the form of state violence.
> But, peace between Israel and Egypt is critical to Middle East
> stability. The US gets little of its oil from the Middle East, but US
> oil companies are present there and more importantly oil must flow
> freely and predictably for the smooth functioning of the global economy
> over which the US presides. Palestinians homes are routinely bulldozed
> and its people live under military occupation. When the Arabic nations
> try and address this matter civilly in the United Nations, as they just
> tried last week at the Durban conference, they are rebuffed by the US.
> Consequently, Palestinian children greet with delight the news of
> thousands of innocent people dying in the US on the 11th. This is
> blowback.
>
> America will make many choices in the near future regarding how to
> engage the US. Let?s hope it remembers that actions have consequences.
> Jingoistic responses can backfire. Blowback might erupt quickly, or
> simmer for decades. When it strikes the consequences are devastating. We
> are poised to escalate the violence or begin to plumb the depths of our
> history in ways that might reveal how we can end these cascading series
> of tragedies. Hopefully, reason will prevail.
>
>
>
>
> Michael Albert
> Z Magazine / ZNet
> sysop at zmag.org
> www.zmag.org
>
>
>
>
> TerryP17 at aol.com wrote:
>
>> Russ Mackechnie wrote:
>>
>> <<You wanted opinions?  I think your poem sucks.>>
>>
>> A fine, succinct, well-written piece of first-rate literary criticism. 
>> Same also applies to "R. Gancie's" predictable anti-US rants. People 
>> who find Tuesday's atrocities justifiable in any way, well, I have a 
>> poet-friend in NYC who's also a Freudian analyst, and I'm sure I can 
>> arrange for a consultation.
>>
>> On the other hand, much appreciation for the posters who've uncovered 
>> some really fine and moving poetry pertinent to the topic.
>>
>> --Terry Ponick
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From aprentiss  Fri Sep 14 13:19:17 2001
From: aprentiss (Prentiss, Amber)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:19:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stop it.
Message-ID: <E7C06C25D501D511BA9900508BB82AA90DE196@ness.agnesscott.edu>

 To summarize any points I have wanted to make:

1. Attack not senseless, just too calculated.
2. Hope we don't make too rash a decision about action.
3. I don't know if poetry is helpful in times like these. Maybe sleep.

-Amber

P.S. If you could just quit screeching at each other, my mental health and I
would appreciate it.



From alphavil  Fri Sep 14 13:19:53 2001
From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:19:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Terry, Terry, Terry, the Agitprop Queen
References: <200109141705.NAA05946@granger.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3BA23C39.4AF5076D@ix.netcom.com>

Phoenix Program? Operation Mongoose? Terror campaigns to influence Italian
elections? Just because a fop like you hasn't made the effort to find out
about these things, doesn't mean they didn't happen. And there are hundreds
more.

Now, you and Terry make 2 monkeys. We need a third. Carlo Parcelli

Michael Snider wrote:

> No reasonable person claims the US has no made heinous errors in the
> years since WWII, many of which cost the lives of innocent people -- but
> they were errors, not the deliberate murder of 5,000 people.  Your
> inability to make that distinction shows that you do indeed live in
> hell -- and it has nothing to do with your DC address.
>
> On Friday, September 14, 2001, at 12:29 PM, R.Gancie/C.Parcelli wrote:
>
> > Your inability to respond in substance is the most telling aspect of
> > your posts. Calling pieces "rants" that are otherwise measured and full
> > of historical fact?--also telling. "Mine" as opposed to recognizing the
> > actual authors and their work? What does anyone do with that level of
> > dishonesty? You can't
> > isolate me so easily. And smug references to Freud whom I'm certain you
> > haven't read either, and in other contexts would admit to despising,
> > also displays a fundamental dishonesty that is reflected in your poetic
> > taste. More history below. Carlo Parcelli
> >
> > Blowback!
> > By Jeff Sommers
> >
> >
> > In CIA parlance missions that are ?successful? create backlashes. The
> > CIA aptly calls this ?Blowback.?
> >
> > At the end of WW II the US took empire from a weakened Britain and
> > France. Among the first casualties was East Europe, which was sacrificed
> > on the mantle of superpower relations.  That same deal between
> > superpowers saw Greece put down by England and the US, with Soviet
> > compliance. The Soviets and the West also concluded that the people of
> > both their respective spheres would be put down if necessary in the
> > interests of ?stability.? Democracy on both sides of the Cold War divide
> > was shelved.
> >
> > The US maintained order during its tenure of hegemony through use of
> > both covert and overt operations that helped signal the very blowback we
> > witnessed on the 11th. In 1953 Allen Dulles, brother of Secretary of
> > State John Foster Dulles, thought it clever to maintain order in Iran by
> > overthrowing its democratically elected leader, Mohammed Mossadegh. The
> > popular Mossadegh ?erred? when he decided Iran?s oil belonged to Iran
> > and not the multi-national corporations who held ?rights? to it. He
> > nationalized Iran?s oil. Allen Dulles sent in the CIA with suitcases
> > full of money (the CIA had no oversight and so could spend liberally) to
> > destabilize the government. They sent their agent Kim Roosevelt to
> > remove Mossadegh. Kim Roosevelt was the grandson of that famous defender
> > of the Spanish American War that brought the US no end of blowback.
> > General H. Norman Schwarzkopf accom panied him?no, not the General we
> > all know who commanded US forces in the Persian Gulf war, but his
> > father. Schwarzkopf trained the Shah of Iran?s secret police in all
> > sorts and manners of techniques that brutal dictatorships employ against
> > their citizens. This bought ?stability? and the return of oil to its
> > ?rightful? owners. The US oil companies got 40%, the Brits 40%, the
> > Dutch 14% and the French 6%. Yet, in overthrowing Mossadegh a
> > 25-year-long period of repression was launched against dissenters in
> > Iran with significant blowback for all parties concerned. Most
> > significantly this created a radical Islamic fundamentalist response
> > that led to the rise of the Ayatollah Khomeni. In part, yesterday?s
> > tragedy is blowback from Washington policies executed 50 years back.
> >
> > During the 1980s the US found another opportunity for CIA mischief in
> > the Middle East. In 1978 the Soviet Union frowned upon the more radical
> > Marxist government that arose on its border in Afghanistan. Given that
> > the Soviets cynically wielded terms like ?Marxism? in the same way the
> > US has often done with ?democracy,? the Soviets felt no compunction
> > about overthrowing a radical Marxist government with democratic
> > impulses. As a superpower it sought obedience. The Soviets installed a
> > government in Afghanistan loyal to themselves and would suffer blowback
> > that in part led to the very dissolution of the USSR.
> >
> > Coming off its own failed decades long attempt to install and maintain
> > unpopular governments in Vietnam, the US was bemused by the Soviets
> > finding themselves in a similar situation in Afghanistan. Among
> > opponents of the Soviet backed regime in Afghanistan were Islamic
> > fundamentalists. The CIA fanned the flames of fundamentalist fervor in
> > order to fuel the ant-Soviet Afghani movement, the Mujahadeen. Yet, here
> > too there would be blowback. When the Soviet Union collapsed the highly
> > motivated fundamentalist force the US helped create and train in covert
> > operations (the stuff of terrorism) they now turned their sights on
> > their former benefactor. The marriage between Afghani fundamentalists
> > and the CIA was purely one of convenience. When no longer ?convenient?
> > these highly-trained militants could now turn on that other source of
> > misery in the Middle East: the US. Again, this was blowback.
> >
> > This begs the question of why the US was perceived as a source of ?evil?
> > by Islamic extremists? We are all familiar with the reasons.  A decade
> > of bombing and embargoes have left Iraq?s electric, water, and health
> > infrastructure in tatters. Saddam Hussein remains in power, but millions
> > live in abject misery, and the United Nations? own data shows over
> > 700,000 children having died as a consequence of these US measures
> > against Iraq. The Iraqi leadership has been unaffected. Hussein has
> > punished the Kurds in the north of Iraq with impunity and the Shiite
> > Muslims of the south treated to Hussein?s bloody fist too. Yet, Iraq did
> > not dissolve into separate nations. This was the goal of US policy. This
> > has been achieved at a terrible human cost and is another reason for
> > blowback against the US.
> >
> > The specter of US policy toward Israel continues to haunt America.
> > Copious amounts of aid flows liberally to the Israeli government and
> > spills out into Palestinian communities in the form of state violence.
> > But, peace between Israel and Egypt is critical to Middle East
> > stability. The US gets little of its oil from the Middle East, but US
> > oil companies are present there and more importantly oil must flow
> > freely and predictably for the smooth functioning of the global economy
> > over which the US presides. Palestinians homes are routinely bulldozed
> > and its people live under military occupation. When the Arabic nations
> > try and address this matter civilly in the United Nations, as they just
> > tried last week at the Durban conference, they are rebuffed by the US.
> > Consequently, Palestinian children greet with delight the news of
> > thousands of innocent people dying in the US on the 11th. This is
> > blowback.
> >
> > America will make many choices in the near future regarding how to
> > engage the US. Let?s hope it remembers that actions have consequences.
> > Jingoistic responses can backfire. Blowback might erupt quickly, or
> > simmer for decades. When it strikes the consequences are devastating. We
> > are poised to escalate the violence or begin to plumb the depths of our
> > history in ways that might reveal how we can end these cascading series
> > of tragedies. Hopefully, reason will prevail.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Michael Albert
> > Z Magazine / ZNet
> > sysop at zmag.org
> > www.zmag.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > TerryP17 at aol.com wrote:
> >
> >> Russ Mackechnie wrote:
> >>
> >> <<You wanted opinions?  I think your poem sucks.>>
> >>
> >> A fine, succinct, well-written piece of first-rate literary criticism.
> >> Same also applies to "R. Gancie's" predictable anti-US rants. People
> >> who find Tuesday's atrocities justifiable in any way, well, I have a
> >> poet-friend in NYC who's also a Freudian analyst, and I'm sure I can
> >> arrange for a consultation.
> >>
> >> On the other hand, much appreciation for the posters who've uncovered
> >> some really fine and moving poetry pertinent to the topic.
> >>
> >> --Terry Ponick
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New-Poetry mailing list
> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From Rsgwynn1  Fri Sep 14 13:31:21 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:31:21 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stop it.
Message-ID: <1e.1b384506.28d398e9@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/14/2001 12:19:23 PM Central Daylight Time, 
aprentiss at agnesscott.edu writes:


> P.S. If you could just quit screeching at each other, my mental health and I
> would appreciate it.
> 

I second this.  Let's not dwell on the sins of the past and try our best to 
avoid the sins of the future.
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From alphavil  Fri Sep 14 13:44:57 2001
From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:44:57 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Santayana, Santayana, Santayana
References: <20010914113618.5A22436F9@sitemail.everyone.net> <4.3.2.7.2.20010914105606.00a958d0@postoffice.brown.edu>
Message-ID: <3BA24219.4CA366D9@ix.netcom.com>

Henry,

There's more than the Guardian around, Henry. You're my third monkey for
Ponick-like dishonesty. CP

Henry Gould wrote:

> Gee, the Guardian fellow is supercilious about Americans' sense of
> bewilderment the day after.
> I guess we should have just shrugged our shoulders at the cost of doing
> imperialism & causing
> all the evil & violence in the world.   Hmm, what insight!
>
> Henry
>
> ********************************************************
> HG afloat:  www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html
> www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark
>     "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From Rsgwynn1  Fri Sep 14 13:58:38 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 13:58:38 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Santayana, Santayana, Santayana
Message-ID: <c0.1aaf9c96.28d39f4e@cs.com>

September 13, 2001

He says: "She came to me and asked last night
What she should do. I tell her, ?Look,
Your mom's from Mexico, your friends are white,
And we are baked potatoes. But the book
You left there by the door can tell you all
You need to know right now. It's our home too.
I've been here longer than the kids who buy
Their beer and chips from me. And someday you
May have to hear your son and daughter cry.'"

He says: "I was a student when the Shah
Went under and they called me ?camel jock.'
Some of them were my friends. I don't know whether
They ever think of that. Pick up that sock
And help your mother. Do your algebra.
This is our country. We're in this together."
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From aprentiss  Fri Sep 14 14:29:54 2001
From: aprentiss (Prentiss, Amber)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:29:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] And a little note of tact.
Message-ID: <E7C06C25D501D511BA9900508BB82AA90DE197@ness.agnesscott.edu>

TACT. If you had a mean great-aunt who suddenly had terminal cancer, you
wouldn't take that moment to tell her that you think she's a bitch and
deserves her suffering. (I hope.) We're all very vulnerable right now. It's
OK to be patriotic or to be downright cynical about the States, but please
deliver your comments with respect before it becomes like loud radios on the
street trying to out-bass each other. It is impossible to be rational adults
at the moment, and even if we were,  you still wouldn't be able to cause
someone to consider the validity of your argument by shouting and
name-calling. (And if you aren't trying to get people to understand your
position, why are you posting?) 

-Amber



From msnider  Fri Sep 14 14:31:05 2001
From: msnider (Michael Snider)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:31:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Santayana, Santayana, Santayana
In-Reply-To: <c0.1aaf9c96.28d39f4e@cs.com>
Message-ID: <200109141834.OAA24406@barry.mail.mindspring.net>

Tonight is the monthly poetry reading at Raleigh's ArtSpace.  I'm 
supposed to read 5 minutes.  I have no idea what I can possibly do 
there  -- nothing of mine seems appropriate.  I've been  thinking of 
reading Blake's "On Another's Sorrow" and Rexroth's translations of Tu 
Fu's "Moon Festival" and "Night in the House by the River."

Sam, may I read this?

On Friday, September 14, 2001, at 01:58 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

> September 13, 2001
>
> He says: "She came to me and asked last night
> What she should do. I tell her, ?Look,
> Your mom's from Mexico, your friends are white,
> And we are baked potatoes. But the book
> You left there by the door can tell you all
> You need to know right now. It's our home too.
> I've been here longer than the kids who buy
> Their beer and chips from me. And someday you
> May have to hear your son and daughter cry.'"
>
> He says: "I was a student when the Shah
> Went under and they called me ?camel jock.'
> Some of them were my friends. I don't know whether
> They ever think of that. Pick up that sock
> And help your mother. Do your algebra.
> This is our country. We're in this together."
>



From alphavil  Fri Sep 14 14:50:34 2001
From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:50:34 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Santayana, Santayana, Santayana
References: <200109141834.OAA24406@barry.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3BA25179.6E959F7F@ix.netcom.com>

Read Phan Van Tri's The Mosquito.

Michael Snider wrote:

> Tonight is the monthly poetry reading at Raleigh's ArtSpace.  I'm
> supposed to read 5 minutes.  I have no idea what I can possibly do
> there  -- nothing of mine seems appropriate.  I've been  thinking of
> reading Blake's "On Another's Sorrow" and Rexroth's translations of Tu
> Fu's "Moon Festival" and "Night in the House by the River."
>
> Sam, may I read this?
>
> On Friday, September 14, 2001, at 01:58 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
>
> > September 13, 2001
> >
> > He says: "She came to me and asked last night
> > What she should do. I tell her, ?Look,
> > Your mom's from Mexico, your friends are white,
> > And we are baked potatoes. But the book
> > You left there by the door can tell you all
> > You need to know right now. It's our home too.
> > I've been here longer than the kids who buy
> > Their beer and chips from me. And someday you
> > May have to hear your son and daughter cry.'"
> >
> > He says: "I was a student when the Shah
> > Went under and they called me ?camel jock.'
> > Some of them were my friends. I don't know whether
> > They ever think of that. Pick up that sock
> > And help your mother. Do your algebra.
> > This is our country. We're in this together."
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From TerryP17  Fri Sep 14 14:57:26 2001
From: TerryP17 (TerryP17 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:57:26 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Terry, Terry, Terry, the Agitprop Queen
Message-ID: <b9.13ac76bd.28d3ad17@aol.com>

<<Now, you and Terry make 2 monkeys. We need a third. Carlo Parcelli>>

Thanks, bud, for adding further deep intellectual content. We knew we could count on you.

--Queen Terry





From Henry_Gould  Fri Sep 14 14:58:25 2001
From: Henry_Gould (Henry Gould)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 14:58:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] And a little note of tact.
In-Reply-To: <E7C06C25D501D511BA9900508BB82AA90DE197@ness.agnesscott.edu
 >
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010914145753.00aa1bd0@postoffice.brown.edu>

Hear, hear.

Henry


At 02:29 PM 9/14/01 -0400, you wrote:
>TACT. If you had a mean great-aunt who suddenly had terminal cancer, you
>wouldn't take that moment to tell her that you think she's a bitch and
>deserves her suffering. (I hope.) We're all very vulnerable right now. It's
>OK to be patriotic or to be downright cynical about the States, but please
>deliver your comments with respect before it becomes like loud radios on the
>street trying to out-bass each other. It is impossible to be rational adults
>at the moment, and even if we were,  you still wouldn't be able to cause
>someone to consider the validity of your argument by shouting and
>name-calling. (And if you aren't trying to get people to understand your
>position, why are you posting?)
>
>-Amber
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
********************************************************
HG afloat:  www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html
www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark
    "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam





From Henry_Gould  Fri Sep 14 15:09:56 2001
From: Henry_Gould (Henry Gould)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:09:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Santayana, Santayana, Santayana
In-Reply-To: <3BA24219.4CA366D9@ix.netcom.com>
References: <20010914113618.5A22436F9@sitemail.everyone.net>
 <4.3.2.7.2.20010914105606.00a958d0@postoffice.brown.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010914150532.00aa3b30@postoffice.brown.edu>

Yes, my dear Carlo, I'm aware that there are many journalists in the world 
quite eager to pontificate
about the sins of the Blind Giant, implying that the surprise attack on 
several thousand civilians
was somehow deserved or justified.  I'm not sure how my brief comments on 
that article warrant
the charge of dishonesty.  Have a wonderful evening.

Henry


At 01:44 PM 9/14/01 -0400, you wrote:
>Henry,
>
>There's more than the Guardian around, Henry. You're my third monkey for
>Ponick-like dishonesty. CP
>
>Henry Gould wrote:
>
> > Gee, the Guardian fellow is supercilious about Americans' sense of
> > bewilderment the day after.
> > I guess we should have just shrugged our shoulders at the cost of doing
> > imperialism & causing
> > all the evil & violence in the world.   Hmm, what insight!
> >
> > Henry
> >
> > ********************************************************
> > HG afloat:  www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html
> > www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark
> >     "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
********************************************************
HG afloat:  www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html
www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark
    "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam





From alphavil  Fri Sep 14 15:09:57 2001
From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:09:57 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Terry, Terry, Terry, the Agitprop Queen
References: <b9.13ac76bd.28d3ad17@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3BA25605.247FBED7@ix.netcom.com>

Your welcome Terry. You are the master of the two liner. But shouldn't you be practicing your
stoogecraft? CP

TerryP17 at aol.com wrote:

> <<Now, you and Terry make 2 monkeys. We need a third. Carlo Parcelli>>
>
> Thanks, bud, for adding further deep intellectual content. We knew we could count on you.
>
> --Queen Terry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From msnider  Fri Sep 14 15:12:26 2001
From: msnider (Michael Snider)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:12:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Santayana, Santayana, Santayana
In-Reply-To: <3BA25179.6E959F7F@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <200109141916.PAA01205@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

Do you have a text?

On Friday, September 14, 2001, at 02:50 PM, R.Gancie/C.Parcelli wrote:

> Read Phan Van Tri's The Mosquito.
>
> Michael Snider wrote:
>
>> Tonight is the monthly poetry reading at Raleigh's ArtSpace.  I'm
>> supposed to read 5 minutes.  I have no idea what I can possibly do
>> there  -- nothing of mine seems appropriate.  I've been  thinking of
>> reading Blake's "On Another's Sorrow" and Rexroth's translations of Tu
>> Fu's "Moon Festival" and "Night in the House by the River."
>>
>> Sam, may I read this?
>>
>> On Friday, September 14, 2001, at 01:58 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
>>
>>> September 13, 2001
>>>
>>> He says: "She came to me and asked last night
>>> What she should do. I tell her, ?Look,
>>> Your mom's from Mexico, your friends are white,
>>> And we are baked potatoes. But the book
>>> You left there by the door can tell you all
>>> You need to know right now. It's our home too.
>>> I've been here longer than the kids who buy
>>> Their beer and chips from me. And someday you
>>> May have to hear your son and daughter cry.'"
>>>
>>> He says: "I was a student when the Shah
>>> Went under and they called me ?camel jock.'
>>> Some of them were my friends. I don't know whether
>>> They ever think of that. Pick up that sock
>>> And help your mother. Do your algebra.
>>> This is our country. We're in this together."
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From alphavil  Fri Sep 14 15:27:43 2001
From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:27:43 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] And a little note of tact.
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010914145753.00aa1bd0@postoffice.brown.edu>
Message-ID: <3BA25A2E.9E3A4840@ix.netcom.com>

Dear Amber,

States are not individuals. If that dear aunt was gearing up to charge out of the
house even though in a mortal state and storm the board room of the chemical
plant that she surmised gave her her cancer, I would be one of the first to rush
to stop her. Work through your analogy a bit, a lot of bad poetry gets written
around such ill-considered ideas. I'd carry the absurdities of it through for you
but I don't have the months it would require. The fact that Henry immediately
jumped on board would indicate that you hadn't given it adequate thought. Henry's
brain cells spontaneously combust.

Ironically, the law is not as hermeneutically fastidious as great philosophers.
Under U.S. law corporations are, in many circumstances, treated as 'individuals'
and I guess by extension if they have the 'cancer' of falling stock prices and
massive layoffs, we should be circumspect about discovering the cause of that
cancer; but also careful not to offend the wishes of the family, for example
other software companies, who actually wished the, family, member dead anyway.
Whew! This is empty work.

One more thing. There is a huge industry based movement that is seeking to give
'robots' full legal rights and to declare that they should have full human
rights. Remember. With money you can buy anything. If you can't do poetry turn
your full attention to making money. Don't waste your time on anything less. CP

Henry Gould wrote:

> Hear, hear.
>
> Henry
>
> At 02:29 PM 9/14/01 -0400, you wrote:
> >TACT. If you had a mean great-aunt who suddenly had terminal cancer, you
> >wouldn't take that moment to tell her that you think she's a bitch and
> >deserves her suffering. (I hope.) We're all very vulnerable right now. It's
> >OK to be patriotic or to be downright cynical about the States, but please
> >deliver your comments with respect before it becomes like loud radios on the
> >street trying to out-bass each other. It is impossible to be rational adults
> >at the moment, and even if we were,  you still wouldn't be able to cause
> >someone to consider the validity of your argument by shouting and
> >name-calling. (And if you aren't trying to get people to understand your
> >position, why are you posting?)
> >
> >-Amber
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ********************************************************
> HG afloat:  www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html
> www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark
>     "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From GrahamD  Fri Sep 14 16:22:02 2001
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:22:02 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: And a little note of tact.
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDEE8@mail.ripon.edu>

Amber, thank you.  Verbal violence begets verbal violence, just as real
bloodshed leads to more of the same.  I am absolutely sure that the great
majority of subscribers to this list are heartily sick of such verbal
pissing matches, which ultimately have more to do with outraged ego than
with either poetry or politics.  Not everyone will post to say so, but many
are applauding you silently.

I have appreciated the poems people have posted here that speak, directly or
not, to the current situation.   Poetry may make nothing happen, but only if
you have a somewhat constricted notion of what "make happen" means, I think.
Here's another poem by Robert Hayden that keeps returning to my mind.

Monet's "Waterlilies"

   Today as the news from Selma and Saigon
   poisons the air like fallout,
           I come again to see
    the serene great picture that I love.

   Here space and time exist in light
   the eye like the eye of faith believes.
          The seen, the known
   dissolve in iridescence, become
   illusive flesh of light
          that was not, was, forever is.

   O light beheld as though refracting tears.
   Here is the aura of that world
          each of us has lost.
   Here is the shadow ot its joy.

--Robert Hayden
_____________

David Graham
===================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
===================

> ----------
> From: 	Prentiss, Amber
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Friday, September 14, 2001 1:29 PM
> To: 	'new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu'
> Subject: 	[New-Poetry] And a little note of tact.
> 
> TACT. If you had a mean great-aunt who suddenly had terminal cancer, you
> wouldn't take that moment to tell her that you think she's a bitch and
> deserves her suffering. (I hope.) We're all very vulnerable right now.
> It's
> OK to be patriotic or to be downright cynical about the States, but please
> deliver your comments with respect before it becomes like loud radios on
> the
> street trying to out-bass each other. It is impossible to be rational
> adults
> at the moment, and even if we were,  you still wouldn't be able to cause
> someone to consider the validity of your argument by shouting and
> name-calling. (And if you aren't trying to get people to understand your
> position, why are you posting?) 
> 
> -Amber
> 



From FanwoodJEL  Fri Sep 14 16:39:58 2001
From: FanwoodJEL (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:39:58 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: And a little note of tact.
Message-ID: <12c.487f6d2.28d3c51e@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/14/01 4:24:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU writes:


> .  Not everyone will post to say so, but many
> are applauding you silently.
> 
> 

Amber, I applaud you vocally, and David, and such other mature voices. I 
continue to be appalled, now more than ever, in a time so many are 
rediscovering what makes us human, by what forces we connect. The spite and 
scorn, anger and bullying on this list is (forgive me) it's own kind of 
terrorizing. It is shameful. 

So, we had our ceremony: Amazing Graze on the alto flute, played with 
suppleness and aching tenor as the flag was raised, then lowered to 
half-staff, and I read Mary Oliver's *Wild Geese* into a complete hush, and 
there was a heavy rain and then a light rain and then nothing but that hush 
and soundless sobbing. 

Jeffrey
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From JackKerouac25  Fri Sep 14 18:36:51 2001
From: JackKerouac25 (JackKerouac25 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 18:36:51 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] And a little note of tact.
Message-ID: <154.101f49f.28d3e083@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/14/01 2:34:39 PM Central Daylight Time, 
alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes:

> Dear Amber,
>  
>  States are not individuals. If that dear aunt was gearing up to charge out 
> of the
>  house even though in a mortal state and storm the board room of the 
chemical
>  plant that she surmised gave her her cancer, I would be one of the first 
to 
> rush
>  to stop her. Work through your analogy a bit, a lot of bad poetry gets 
> written
>  around such ill-considered ideas. I'd carry the absurdities of it through 
> for you
>  but I don't have the months it would require. The fact that Henry 
> immediately
>  jumped on board would indicate that you hadn't given it adequate thought. 
> Henry's
>  brain cells spontaneously combust.
>  
>  Ironically, the law is not as hermeneutically fastidious as great 
> philosophers.
>  Under U.S. law corporations are, in many circumstances, treated as '
> individuals'
>  and I guess by extension if they have the 'cancer' of falling stock prices 
> and
>  massive layoffs, we should be circumspect about discovering the cause of 
> that
>  cancer; but also careful not to offend the wishes of the family, for 
example
>  other software companies, who actually wished the, family, member dead 
> anyway.
>  Whew! This is empty work.
>  
>  One more thing. There is a huge industry based movement that is seeking to 
> give
>  'robots' full legal rights and to declare that they should have full human
>  rights. Remember. With money you can buy anything. If you can't do poetry 
> turn
>  your full attention to making money. Don't waste your time on anything 
less. 
> CP


Looks like someone dug out some old grad school texts.

Let this rest.  Of course states aren't individuals; who suggested otherwise? 
 Analogies are analogies and comparisons comparisons.  This is a time to come 
together, not get lost in silly little verbal games and not the time for 
Oliver Stone conspiracy theories.

I applaud Amber also.

Jeff Newberry
Adjunct Instructor
Dept. of English/Foreign Languages
University of West Florida

Jeffrey L. Newberry
Adjunct Instructor
Department of English and Foreign Languages
University of West Florida
11000 University Parkway
Pensacola, FL  32514
850.474.2923
850.473.7330



From CobbCoStudioArts  Fri Sep 14 18:49:50 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 15:49:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stop it.
Message-ID: <20010914224951.096152756@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From Rabanna  Fri Sep 14 18:55:49 2001
From: Rabanna (Rabanna at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 18:55:49 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stroffolino "Poem"
Message-ID: <4d.11486e08.28d3e4f5@aol.com>

I've never spoken before on this list and may never again, but I feel I must 
now. I agree that the so-called poem in question is "disgusting drivel and 
puerile," and that it sucks?In fact, it may be lineated as a poem but it is 
nothing more than a tirade which should not be dignified by any discussion of 
its ridiculous sentiments.
                                Anna Rabinowitz



From CobbCoStudioArts  Fri Sep 14 19:01:27 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:01:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stop it.
Message-ID: <20010914230128.178E52755@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From CobbCoStudioArts  Fri Sep 14 19:02:28 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:02:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stop it.
Message-ID: <20010914230228.73BBE3ECC@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From alphavil  Fri Sep 14 19:02:41 2001
From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 19:02:41 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Santayana, Santayana, Santayana
References: <20010914113618.5A22436F9@sitemail.everyone.net>
	 <4.3.2.7.2.20010914105606.00a958d0@postoffice.brown.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20010914150532.00aa3b30@postoffice.brown.edu>
Message-ID: <3BA28C91.48AB87AA@ix.netcom.com>

"Blind Giant." Is that a literary illusion? Homeric? Swiftian? Rabelaisian?
Joycean? Mother Goosean? Henry your level of political and historical
sophistication is as uncultivated as it was five years ago. Five years! Doesn't
it occur to you, if your not going to make the effort, you might gimp your maw
about something you know nothing about. It doesn't interest you, and as you can
see from this list of 'poets' nonetheless, you are not alone. Apparently even
the State Department has no interest in history. Why should reg Joe like you.
And for all the media knows you could be the "Blind Giant" through that fun
house lens they use. CP

Henry Gould wrote:

> Yes, my dear Carlo, I'm aware that there are many journalists in the world
> quite eager to pontificate
> about the sins of the Blind Giant, implying that the surprise attack on
> several thousand civilians
> was somehow deserved or justified.  I'm not sure how my brief comments on
> that article warrant
> the charge of dishonesty.  Have a wonderful evening.
>
> Henry
>
> At 01:44 PM 9/14/01 -0400, you wrote:
> >Henry,
> >
> >There's more than the Guardian around, Henry. You're my third monkey for
> >Ponick-like dishonesty. CP
> >
> >Henry Gould wrote:
> >
> > > Gee, the Guardian fellow is supercilious about Americans' sense of
> > > bewilderment the day after.
> > > I guess we should have just shrugged our shoulders at the cost of doing
> > > imperialism & causing
> > > all the evil & violence in the world.   Hmm, what insight!
> > >
> > > Henry
> > >
> > > ********************************************************
> > > HG afloat:  www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html
> > > www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark
> > >     "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ********************************************************
> HG afloat:  www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html
> www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark
>     "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From CobbCoStudioArts  Fri Sep 14 19:19:44 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:19:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] And a little note of tact.
Message-ID: <20010914231944.9493436F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From duemer  Fri Sep 14 19:15:47 2001
From: duemer (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 19:15:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stop it.
References: <20010914224951.096152756@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <012201c13d73$30846180$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

Robert Cobb writes:
<<The actions ahead won't be too rash, but they will be determined and
decisive.>>

How do you know this, Bob?

======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
======================








From CobbCoStudioArts  Fri Sep 14 19:43:26 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:43:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stop it.
Message-ID: <20010914234326.D61612756@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From wasanthony  Fri Sep 14 19:56:13 2001
From: wasanthony (jcervantes)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 16:56:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stop it.
In-Reply-To: <012201c13d73$30846180$18724342@twcny.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20010914235613.89811.qmail@web12108.mail.yahoo.com>

I agree with Amber.  This high-school debate competition is just
self-serving.  We should, instead, be putting our efforts into making
known that not everyone has transferred their last viewing of "Pearl
Harbor" to these events and will not fall for opportunistic
war-mongering.  I want to say, "Dali Lama for President," but that
would just spark laughter in grad school lounges.  Nonetheless, it is
something along those lines that I wish for:  a truly humane leader and
a radical change in consciousness.

- Jim


=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
"Ripples" @ <http://www.poetserv.net>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/



From alphavil  Fri Sep 14 20:37:03 2001
From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:37:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] And a little note of tact.
References: <154.101f49f.28d3e083@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3BA2A2AF.5A8FCB@ix.netcom.com>

 <Of course states aren't individuals; who suggested otherwise?>

Amber did. Didn't you read her allegory? CP

JackKerouac25 at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 9/14/01 2:34:39 PM Central Daylight Time,
> alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes:
>
> > Dear Amber,
> >
> >  States are not individuals. If that dear aunt was gearing up to charge out
> > of the
> >  house even though in a mortal state and storm the board room of the
> chemical
> >  plant that she surmised gave her her cancer, I would be one of the first
> to
> > rush
> >  to stop her. Work through your analogy a bit, a lot of bad poetry gets
> > written
> >  around such ill-considered ideas. I'd carry the absurdities of it through
> > for you
> >  but I don't have the months it would require. The fact that Henry
> > immediately
> >  jumped on board would indicate that you hadn't given it adequate thought.
> > Henry's
> >  brain cells spontaneously combust.
> >
> >  Ironically, the law is not as hermeneutically fastidious as great
> > philosophers.
> >  Under U.S. law corporations are, in many circumstances, treated as '
> > individuals'
> >  and I guess by extension if they have the 'cancer' of falling stock prices
> > and
> >  massive layoffs, we should be circumspect about discovering the cause of
> > that
> >  cancer; but also careful not to offend the wishes of the family, for
> example
> >  other software companies, who actually wished the, family, member dead
> > anyway.
> >  Whew! This is empty work.
> >
> >  One more thing. There is a huge industry based movement that is seeking to
> > give
> >  'robots' full legal rights and to declare that they should have full human
> >  rights. Remember. With money you can buy anything. If you can't do poetry
> > turn
> >  your full attention to making money. Don't waste your time on anything
> less.
> > CP
>
> Looks like someone dug out some old grad school texts.
>
> Let this rest.  Of course states aren't individuals; who suggested otherwise?
>  Analogies are analogies and comparisons comparisons.  This is a time to come
> together, not get lost in silly little verbal games and not the time for
> Oliver Stone conspiracy theories.
>
> I applaud Amber also.
>
> Jeff Newberry
> Adjunct Instructor
> Dept. of English/Foreign Languages
> University of West Florida
>
> Jeffrey L. Newberry
> Adjunct Instructor
> Department of English and Foreign Languages
> University of West Florida
> 11000 University Parkway
> Pensacola, FL  32514
> 850.474.2923
> 850.473.7330
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From bardo  Fri Sep 14 20:48:26 2001
From: bardo (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:48:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stop it.
References: <20010914234326.D61612756@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <009001c13d80$218d4860$ef7dbd18@win98>

"To root out all terrorists," Bob?
That seems not only highly unlikely,
but futile as long as what motivates
the terrorists manages to drive its
weedy roots ever deeper into the
terrorists' back yards and gardens.

Even the idea of "no rush to justice"
seems unclear. If 'no rush' because
we can't get enough 'intelligence' to
target effectively, perhaps; if 'no rush'
because we have enough *intelligence*
as a society to resort to discussion
rather than destruction, your estimation
may prove excessively optimistic.
Suicide bombers put themselves beyond
language, probably because they think
we've put them there first; if we put ourselves
there by relying on the eloquence of bombs,
we should remember that the silent dialogue
of doom has an unpredictable inertia, like
a high-tension wire thrashing in a hurricane.

Dan

----- Original Message -----
From: Robert R.Cobb
<CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 7:43 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Stop it.


> Joe,
>
> I am no prophet nor soothsayer.  It just makes
sense to me that there will be no rush to justice.
It will take intelligence and infiltration and a lot
of hard work to identify and root out all
terrorists.
>
> Bob Cobb
>
> --- "Joseph Duemer" <duemer at clarkson.edu>
> > wrote:
> >Robert Cobb writes:
> ><<The actions ahead won't be too rash, but they
will be determined and
> >decisive.>>
> >
> >How do you know this, Bob?
> >
> >======================
> >Joseph Duemer
> >School of Liberal Arts, 5750
> >Clarkson University
> >Potsdam NY 13699
> >315.268.3967
> >======================
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> ==
> Poetry Catamaran
>
> "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail
along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"
>
> Robert R. Cobb
> AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
> http://rrcobb.tripod.com
>
>
____________________________________________________
_________
> -----
> Check out my portfolio at www.talentx.com
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From duemer  Fri Sep 14 20:43:36 2001
From: duemer (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 20:43:36 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stop it.
References: <20010914234326.D61612756@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <015001c13d7f$74cb3560$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

Robert Cobb writes:
<<I am no prophet nor soothsayer.  It just makes sense to me that there will
be no rush to justice.  It will take intelligence and infiltration and a lot
of hard work to identify and root out all terrorists.>>

I'm afraid--& I mean really afraid--that I don't share your faith. And while
I detest Carlo Parcelli's bullying (I'll happily become his fourth monkey),
I think that Chris's poem, which set this whole thread off, was basically a
gloss on Auden's "Those to whom evil is done / Do evil in return." Now,
before all the patriots jump down my throat, listen: To say that we can
understand the events of Tuesday in historical terms is not to say that one
condones or justifies the actions of the terrorists. To make such a
connection is not only a logical error, it is a moral fallacy. Such an
equation attempts to erase the grief & anger of those of us who do not
believe that more murder is justifiable, or that it will end terrorism. I
remember the last war.

jd
======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
======================








From CobbCoStudioArts  Sat Sep 15 01:28:30 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 22:28:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stop it.
Message-ID: <20010915052830.42A0836F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From aprentiss  Sat Sep 15 02:32:21 2001
From: aprentiss (Prentiss, Amber)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 02:32:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stop it.
Message-ID: <E7C06C25D501D511BA9900508BB82AA90DE198@ness.agnesscott.edu>

 
There's always a difference between mean/angry and senseless. Senseless is
what happens when someone kills someone to know what it feels like to do so.
This was no teenage joy ride. All of the things that have happened make
sense. The easiest way to gloss over a tragic moment in history is to say
that it was insane or senseless, and that lets people who do those
dramatically violent things off the hook in a twisted way. so-and-so kill X
many people; therefore, they are off their rockers and very different from
the rest of us and did nothing any of us has the capability to do - none of
us, ever. (Sorta like the way many assume that Nazism was merely some sort
of a German thing, that 'the rest of us' would never degrade other humans
that way under any circumstances. I'm sorry, but I just don't trust humans
that way.) It was an entirely too calculated attack spurred by anger. It's
mean, yes, but not senseless, that's just too easy.

I love my country; like many, I don't always trust its government. I can't
say that I trust my government to do the right thing because I think we're
trapped in a situation where there is no right thing to do. And I don't
think that our legislators are so much better than us that their ideas of
what is appropriate to do can't be affected by rage and insecurity.

When I said that I didn't find poetry very helpful in these times, that was
a personal opinion subject to all the mutability and mind-changes the rest
of my opinions are. I should have added a 'to me.'

-Amber

P.S. I hope I'm not screeching, though I may have been talking through my
teeth at times.
P.P.S. (And really unrelated.) Cobb Co. Studio Arts? I suppose it's likely a
pun on your name, but are you from GA?

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert R.Cobb
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: 9/14/2001 6:49 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Stop it.

Amber,

I cannot just allow your three points to just lay there without
questioning their validity and your motives behind making them.

Amber wrote:

>1. Attack not senseless, just too calculated.

The attack(s) were senseless and calculated.  They were also cowardly
and lethal, subversive and evil.  The devastation they left behind will
never be forgotten.

2. Hope we don't make too rash a decision about action.

The actions ahead won't be too rash, but they will be determined and
decisive.

>3. I don't know if poetry is helpful in times like these. Maybe sleep.

Times like these have never been before endured.  Poetry is always
helpful whenever "there are miles to go before I sleep."

Bob Cobb

--- "Prentiss, Amber" <aprentiss at agnesscott.edu>
> wrote:
> To summarize any points I have wanted to make:
>
>1. Attack not senseless, just too calculated.
>2. Hope we don't make too rash a decision about action.
>3. I don't know if poetry is helpful in times like these. Maybe sleep.
>
>-Amber
>
>P.S. If you could just quit screeching at each other, my mental health
and I
>would appreciate it.
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

==
Poetry Catamaran

"Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known
mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"

Robert R. Cobb
AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
http://rrcobb.tripod.com

_____________________________________________________________
-----
Check out my portfolio at www.talentx.com
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From adead_poet  Sat Sep 15 05:34:20 2001
From: adead_poet (dead poet)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 04:34:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] children's poems
Message-ID: <F63MjkatwD43oFLaqSO000160e9@hotmail.com>

i wondering if someone here could help me with finding a magazine or 
someplace that publishes children's poems. i have two and i'm not real sure 
what to do with them. i looked through my poet's market, but i wasn't happy 
with what was there, which wasn't much. one group keeps the rights, and that 
is something i don't want. anyone know of children's magazine?

thanks,
jason

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From bardo  Sat Sep 15 06:51:23 2001
From: bardo (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 06:51:23 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] children's poems
References: <F63MjkatwD43oFLaqSO000160e9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <001001c13dd4$5c4d1080$ef7dbd18@win98>

Jason,

You might try Cricket.
See
http://www.mav.net/guidelines/childrens/cricket.shtm
l

Best,

Dan

----- Original Message -----
From: dead poet <adead_poet at hotmail.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 5:34 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] children's poems


> i wondering if someone here could help me with
finding a magazine or
> someplace that publishes children's poems. i have
two and i'm not real sure
> what to do with them. i looked through my poet's
market, but i wasn't happy
> with what was there, which wasn't much. one group
keeps the rights, and that
> is something i don't want. anyone know of
children's magazine?
>
> thanks,
> jason
>
>
____________________________________________________
_____________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From bardo  Sat Sep 15 07:01:55 2001
From: bardo (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 07:01:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] children's poems
References: <F63MjkatwD43oFLaqSO000160e9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <001401c13dd5$d4fc08a0$ef7dbd18@win98>

Jason,

I see you don't want a mag that keeps the rights,
but I sent you the Cricket address anyway because I
think you should reconsider that objection. A friend
of mine publishes in Cricket frequently, and that
got his toe in the children's market with good
exposure in a prestigious venue. I don't mean to
suggest that rights & copyrights don't matter, but
you might find the tradeoff worthwhile in the case
of the children's market.

--Dan

----- Original Message -----
From: dead poet <adead_poet at hotmail.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 5:34 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] children's poems


> i wondering if someone here could help me with
finding a magazine or
> someplace that publishes children's poems. i have
two and i'm not real sure
> what to do with them. i looked through my poet's
market, but i wasn't happy
> with what was there, which wasn't much. one group
keeps the rights, and that
> is something i don't want. anyone know of
children's magazine?
>
> thanks,
> jason
>
>
____________________________________________________
_____________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From tadrichards  Sat Sep 15 10:02:28 2001
From: tadrichards (theoldmole)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:02:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] And a little note of tact.
References: <154.101f49f.28d3e083@aol.com> <3BA2A2AF.5A8FCB@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <009901c13def$1027b3c0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

Allegories are always going to be imperfect. I thought Amber's struck a deep
chord.


  Tad Richards                       "Well said, old mole."
    The Old Mole                         Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet
    of the MoleNet                          Act I, Scene 5
          http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
----- Original Message -----
From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2001 8:37 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] And a little note of tact.


> <Of course states aren't individuals; who suggested otherwise?>
>
> Amber did. Didn't you read her allegory? CP
>
> JackKerouac25 at aol.com wrote:
>
> > In a message dated 9/14/01 2:34:39 PM Central Daylight Time,
> > alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes:
> >
> > > Dear Amber,
> > >
> > >  States are not individuals. If that dear aunt was gearing up to
charge out
> > > of the
> > >  house even though in a mortal state and storm the board room of the
> > chemical
> > >  plant that she surmised gave her her cancer, I would be one of the
first
> > to
> > > rush
> > >  to stop her. Work through your analogy a bit, a lot of bad poetry
gets
> > > written
> > >  around such ill-considered ideas. I'd carry the absurdities of it
through
> > > for you
> > >  but I don't have the months it would require. The fact that Henry
> > > immediately
> > >  jumped on board would indicate that you hadn't given it adequate
thought.
> > > Henry's
> > >  brain cells spontaneously combust.
> > >
> > >  Ironically, the law is not as hermeneutically fastidious as great
> > > philosophers.
> > >  Under U.S. law corporations are, in many circumstances, treated as '
> > > individuals'
> > >  and I guess by extension if they have the 'cancer' of falling stock
prices
> > > and
> > >  massive layoffs, we should be circumspect about discovering the cause
of
> > > that
> > >  cancer; but also careful not to offend the wishes of the family, for
> > example
> > >  other software companies, who actually wished the, family, member
dead
> > > anyway.
> > >  Whew! This is empty work.
> > >
> > >  One more thing. There is a huge industry based movement that is
seeking to
> > > give
> > >  'robots' full legal rights and to declare that they should have full
human
> > >  rights. Remember. With money you can buy anything. If you can't do
poetry
> > > turn
> > >  your full attention to making money. Don't waste your time on
anything
> > less.
> > > CP
> >
> > Looks like someone dug out some old grad school texts.
> >
> > Let this rest.  Of course states aren't individuals; who suggested
otherwise?
> >  Analogies are analogies and comparisons comparisons.  This is a time to
come
> > together, not get lost in silly little verbal games and not the time for
> > Oliver Stone conspiracy theories.
> >
> > I applaud Amber also.
> >
> > Jeff Newberry
> > Adjunct Instructor
> > Dept. of English/Foreign Languages
> > University of West Florida
> >
> > Jeffrey L. Newberry
> > Adjunct Instructor
> > Department of English and Foreign Languages
> > University of West Florida
> > 11000 University Parkway
> > Pensacola, FL  32514
> > 850.474.2923
> > 850.473.7330
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From JackKerouac25  Sat Sep 15 10:10:21 2001
From: JackKerouac25 (JackKerouac25 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 10:10:21 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] And a little note of tact.
Message-ID: <ad.105e363c.28d4bb4d@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/15/01 9:05:39 AM Central Daylight Time, 
tadrichards at prodigy.net writes:

> Allegories are always going to be imperfect. I thought Amber's struck a deep
>  chord

As did I.  I appreciate her input in times like there (and other times as 
well).

Jeffrey L. Newberry
Adjunct Instructor
Department of English and Foreign Languages
University of West Florida
11000 University Parkway
Pensacola, FL  32514
850.474.2923
850.473.7330



From CobbCoStudioArts  Sat Sep 15 10:39:22 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 07:39:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stop it.
Message-ID: <20010915143922.D4CCE3ECC@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From BobGrumman  Sat Sep 15 11:14:10 2001
From: BobGrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 11:14:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: September 10, 2001
References: <200109141438.KAA10390@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <3BA37042.74B4@nut-n-but.net>

Michael Snider wrote:
> 
> Thank you, Sam.
> 
> On Friday, September 14, 2001, at 09:39 AM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
> 
> > In these times it might be better to give blood, send money 
> > to the Red Cross, think of the victims, and buy a loaf of 
> > bread from the Arab guy who runs the local convenience store.

A storm down here in Florida knocked out my electricity for 24
hours, so helped keep me from posting anything stupid on the
terrorist attack.  Just now, I've written several posts about
it that I've scrapped on the grounds that they made me out too
arrogantly "above it all."  But I can't help saying that disasters 
like the attack bring out the worst in idiots like Robertson 
(which, in a way, is good, because it makes it impossible for 
anyone to fail to see him for what he is) and, alas, too many 
poets throughout the political spectrum.  In conclusion, I very 
much second what Sam Gwynn says, and hope not to comment again on 
the topic.

                                            --Bob G.




From grahamd  Sat Sep 15 12:25:48 2001
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 11:25:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Place
Message-ID: <200109151623.f8FGNvd19221@mx10.mx.voyager.net>

Place

On the last day of the world
I would want to plant a tree

what for
not for the fruit

the tree that bears the fruit
is not the one that was planted

I want the tree that stands
in the earth for the first time

with the sun already
going down

and the water
touching its roots

in the earth full of the dead
and the clouds passing

one by one
over its leaves

 --W. S. Merwin
_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________



From adead_poet  Sat Sep 15 14:50:19 2001
From: adead_poet (dead poet)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 13:50:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] children's poems
Message-ID: <F1197cOTUjUTZBaFjob00006170@hotmail.com>

daniel,

i just kind of scanned the submissions page, and it seems that they mostly 
just buy first rights and reprint rights, which is fine by me. i know that 
there isn't much money in poetry of any type, i just have to 'own' my work. 
that way if i want to reprint it one day, i have the right to, without 
having to pay someone for something i created.

and these are the only two children's poems i've written, so i don't know 
that i have to break in to the market. i don't know that i'll ever write 
another.

but thanks for the link, i think i'll submit to them and take it from there. 
all this may be for nothing if they don't first like it and accept the work.

thanks again,
jason

>From: Daniel Zimmerman <bardo at optonline.net>
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] children's poems
>Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 07:01:55 -0400
>
>Jason,
>
>I see you don't want a mag that keeps the rights,
>but I sent you the Cricket address anyway because I
>think you should reconsider that objection. A friend
>of mine publishes in Cricket frequently, and that
>got his toe in the children's market with good
>exposure in a prestigious venue. I don't mean to
>suggest that rights & copyrights don't matter, but
>you might find the tradeoff worthwhile in the case
>of the children's market.
>
>--Dan
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: dead poet <adead_poet at hotmail.com>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Sent: Saturday, September 15, 2001 5:34 AM
>Subject: [New-Poetry] children's poems
>
>
> > i wondering if someone here could help me with
>finding a magazine or
> > someplace that publishes children's poems. i have
>two and i'm not real sure
> > what to do with them. i looked through my poet's
>market, but i wasn't happy
> > with what was there, which wasn't much. one group
>keeps the rights, and that
> > is something i don't want. anyone know of
>children's magazine?
> >
> > thanks,
> > jason
> >
> >
>____________________________________________________
>_____________
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>http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>_______________________________________________
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From halvard  Sat Sep 15 14:53:22 2001
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 14:53:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Robert Duncan, "After a Passage in Baudelaire"
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEFMEBAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

After a Passage in Baudelaire

Ship, leaving or arriving, of my lover,
my soul, leaving or coming into this harbor,
among your lights and shadows   shelterd,
at home in your bulk, the cunning
regularity and symmetry thruout
of love's design, of will, of your
attractive cells and chambers     .

riding forward, darkest of shades
over the shadowd waters     .
into the light, neat, symmetrically
arranged about your watery reflections
disturbing your own image, moving as you are

.     What passenger, what sailor,
looks out into the swirling currents round you
as if into those depths into a mirror?

What lights in what port-holes
raise in my mind again     hunger and impatience?
to make my bed down again, there, beyond me,
as if this room too, my bedroom, my lamp at my side,
were among those lights sailing out
                     away from me.

We too, among the others, passengers
in that *charme infini et myst?rieux,*
in that suitable symmetry, that precision
everywhere, the shining fittings, the fit
of lights and polisht surfaces to the dark,
to the flickering shadows of them,
we too, unfaithful to me, sailing away,
leaving me.

*L'id?e po?tique,* the idea of a poetry,
that rises from the movement, from the
outswirling curves and imaginary figures
round this ship, this fate, this sure thing,

*est l'hypoth?se d'une ?tre vaste, immense,

compliqu?, mais eurythmique.*

--Robert Duncan, from *Roots and Branches*  (1964)


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html




From moira_russell  Sat Sep 15 19:30:19 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 15:30:19 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Reading the news
Message-ID: <F321joMQM1hLr56l5410001b749@hotmail.com>

Gorgeous, David.  Thank you. I'm inspired to buy this now.

Moira

>Reading the News and Thinking of the T'ang Poets
>John Balaban
>Locusts at the Edge of Summer:
>New & Selected Poems
>Copper Canyon Press


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From moira_russell  Sat Sep 15 19:42:55 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 15:42:55 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stop it.
Message-ID: <F101J3JCj2fBUA51HLv0001b312@hotmail.com>

Does anyone have any other poems to quote?  I was really moved to see some 
people's choices.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

Wise Wretch! with Pleasures too refin'd to please;
With too much Spirit to be e'er at ease;
With too much Quickness ever to be taught;
With too much Thinking to have common Thought:
You purchase Pain with all that Joy can give,
And die of nothing but a Rage to live.
-- Alexander Pope

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From moira_russell  Sat Sep 15 19:56:05 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 15:56:05 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: September 1, 1939
Message-ID: <F136WJf2pWb7p3VReo00001a2ce@hotmail.com>

What a great quote.  I would not have found it on my own, because for some 
reason I kept blanking out on the name of the author.  Do I read rightly?  
Is this in the upcoming book you have edited?

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

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From moira_russell  Sat Sep 15 20:00:45 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:00:45 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: September 10, 2001
Message-ID: <F93AaZB1YqKWvIi0lJ100004dcc@hotmail.com>

Sam wrote:

>>In these times it might be better to give blood, send money to the Red 
>>Cross

I am sure most people on the list are aware of this, but thought I would 
spread the news a bit more:  it is now possible to donate to the Red Cross 
through Amazon.com and Paypal.  Both sites state 100% of the donations will 
go to the Red Cross.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

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From moira_russell  Sat Sep 15 20:09:27 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:09:27 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stop it.
Message-ID: <F145BsZi3babO5XS2uF0001a6db@hotmail.com>

>Let's not dwell on the sins of the past and try our best to
>avoid the sins of the future.

This strikes me as good advice for any day.

I have been reading Le Guin's translation of the Tao te Ching recently.  
Some excerpts:

Where the army marched
grow thorns and thistles.
After the war
come the bad harvests.

***

The expert in warfare says:
Rather than dare make the attack
I'd take the attack;
rather than dare advance an inch
I'd retreat a foot.

It's called marching without marching,
rolling up your sleeves without flexing your muscles,
being armed without weapons,
giving the attacker no opponent.
Nothing's worse than attacking what yeilds.
To attack what yields is to throw away the prize.

So, when matched armies meet,
the one who comes to grief
is the true victor.

Le Guin glosses:  "A piece of sound tactical advice leads to a prpfound 
moral warning.  The prize thrown away by the aggressor is compassion.  The 
yielder, the griever, the mourner, keeps that prize.  The game is loser take 
all."

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA


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From moira_russell  Sat Sep 15 20:15:31 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 16:15:31 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Blake
Message-ID: <F4548HN387i5pwpb7Cn0000440b@hotmail.com>


JOY AND WOE

Joy and woe are woven fine,
A clothing for the soul divine;
Under every grief and pine
Runs a joy and silken twine.
It is right it should be so;
Man was made for joy and woe;
     and, when this we rightly know,
     Safely through the world we go.

                          William Blake, 1863


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From adead_poet  Sun Sep 16 04:07:16 2001
From: adead_poet (dead poet)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 03:07:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] looking for essays
Message-ID: <F20bPvFG5FP6H40B6hY00016ec1@hotmail.com>

does anyone know of a site where i can find edmund wilson's 'is verse a 
dying technique?', Joseph Epsteins' "Who Killed Poetry?"  i can't find a 
copy of it.

thanks
jason

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From grahamd  Sun Sep 16 13:02:56 2001
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 12:02:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: looking for essays
Message-ID: <200109161703.f8GH3Lp89497@mx12.mx.voyager.net>

Epstein's essay is online here: 
http://members.nbci.com/Lyricsbard/lyricsbard/epstein.htm

Don't know about the Wilson.
_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________

----------
>From: "dead poet" <adead_poet at hotmail.com>
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] looking for essays
>Date: Sun, Sep 16, 2001, 3:07 AM
>

>does anyone know of a site where i can find edmund wilson's 'is verse a 
>dying technique?', Joseph Epsteins' "Who Killed Poetry?"  i can't find a 
>copy of it.
>
>thanks
>jason
>
>_________________________________________________________________



From halvard  Sun Sep 16 13:51:29 2001
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 13:51:29 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] 9/11+4    Images from Hal and Lynda
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEGIEBAA.halvard@earthlink.net>



http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/911plus4.html


Hal     "If you want to make God laugh,
           tell him what you're doing tomorrow."
                        --Michael Judge, Chaplain, NYFD

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html




From Rsgwynn1  Sun Sep 16 19:45:55 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 19:45:55 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] 9/11+4    Images from Hal and Lynda
Message-ID: <47.10fb7ee9.28d693b3@cs.com>

These poems work well with these moving photographs.


http://www.aopoetry.com/nyc911201.html

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From JBCM2  Sun Sep 16 23:03:36 2001
From: JBCM2 (JBCM2 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 23:03:36 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] profile
Message-ID: <34.1aff818f.28d6c208@aol.com>

(from "The Australian" 
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,2884933%255E2703

,00.html )
 
 Middle-class suicide bombers
By Stephen Romei, New York correspondent 
September 17, 2001
AS investigators begin to reconstruct the lives of the men who took over the 
cockpits, one thing is certain: they were not your average suicide bombers.

 
 These were not impoverished youths, inspired by religious fanaticism and 
promises of sexual ecstasy in a martyrs paradise, walking into a restaurant 
with bombs around their waists.

They flew first class, paying up to $US4500 ($8700) for a one-way ticket to 
death in the name of a war on the US. They purchased their tickets on the 
internet. They quoted their frequent flyer numbers.

They were good citizens in suburban America, living quiet, law-abiding lives. 
They drove sedans and, contrary to Muslim law, drank in bars. Some had 
families.

All in all, a picture of middle-class comfort.

It is a profile that horrifies terrorism experts, who say the emergence of a 
new breed of older, better-educated suicide bomber portends a culture-wide 
rage against the West. "People who have a lot of other reasons to live for 
are deciding this is such an important cause that they are willing to die 
anyway," terrorism expert Andrea Talentino told The New York Times. "That, 
obviously, is very frightening."

Ehud Sprinzak, head of an Israel-based think tank that has just published a 
book on suicide bombers, said: "We'll have to rewrite it. This is staggering 
new evidence."

Others are drawing comparisons between Saudi terrorist Osama bin Laden, the 
prime suspect in last week's kamikaze attacks in New York and Washington, and 
Adolf Hitler.

Their thinking is that, like Hitler, bin Laden has crystallised national 
feelings of anger and disaffection and turned them into a concentrated 
hatred. That hate found extraordinary expression in the murderous actions of 
ostensibly ordinary men last Tuesday. Even now, the worst neighbours can say 
about the terrorists who lived next door was that they kept to themselves.

"They were very, very private people," said real estate agent Paul 
Stimmeling, who helped three of the suspected hijackers find homes in Vero 
Beach, Florida. "The children came out and played, but the adults stayed 
behind closed doors."

They were not men of steel. Salem al-Hamzi, for example, was only 160cm tall 
and rail-thin. He talked finding a Mexican bride and surfed the internet in 
search of one.

It is a starkly different lifestyle to that of the typical suicide bomber, 
according to Israel-based academic Ariel Merari, who is writing a book on the 
subject.

He says their average age is 22 and very few are married. In heaven, they are 
told, 70 black-eyed virgins await them. Back on Earth, their poor families 
will be rewarded with cash.

The suicide bomber has become a devastating weapon of modern terrorism, with 
researchers documenting 286 incidents between 1983 and 2000 in Lebanon, 
Israel and Turkey alone.

"We have nothing with which to repel killing and thuggery against us except 
the weapon of martyrdom," Palestinian Islamic Jihad secretary-general Ramadan 
Shalah wrote in Foreign Policy magazine last year.

The FBI has identified 19 men as the suspected hijackers, seven of whom had 
the expertise to pilot the passenger planes that speared into the World Trade 
Centre and the Pentagon.

Following is a breakdown of that list by each of the four planes used in the 
attacks (the fourth crashed in rural Pennsylvania after some passengers 
attacked the terrorists):

American Airlines Flight 77, which crashed into the Pentagon: Khalid 
al-Mihdar, Majed Moqed, Nawaf al-Hamzi, Salem al-Hamzi and Hani Hanjor. Their 
ages are not yet known.

American Airlines Flight 11, the first jet to hit the World Trade Centre: 
Satam al-Suqami, 25, Waleed al-Sherir, 28, Mohammed Atta, 33, Abdulaziz 
al-Omari, 22.

United Airlines Flight 175, the second jet into the World Trade Centre: 
Marwan al-Shehhi, 23, Ahmed Faiez, Ahmed al-Ghamdi, Hamza al-Ghamdi and 
Mohaid al-Shehri, ages unknown.

United Airlines Flight 93, which crashed in Pennsylvania: Saeed al-Ghamdi, 
25, Ahmed al-Haznawi, 21, Ziad Samir Jarrah, 26, Ahmed al-Nami, age unknown.

The ages of the men are based on identification documents such as their 
driver's licences, which may not be genuine. Law enforcement sources said 
some of the terrorists were in their 40s.

They lived in rental properties across the US, from Florida to New York to 
California. Several attended aviation schools in Florida, paying thousands of 
dollars in cash to hone their flying skills.

All of the hijackers purchased tickets marked August 25-28 for last Tuesday's 
suicide mission.

Mohammed Atta, for example, used a Visa card to buy a first-class seat on 
American Airlines Flight 11. He ordered the paperless ticket via the AA 
website, accessing it with his frequent flyer number.

"He just seemed like a businessman . . . everything about him, his demeanour, 
the way he looked," Brad Warrick, who rented Atta a car, told the Los Angeles 
Times.

"He would wear nice slacks and a polo shirt. He was articulate and spoke 
English very well. He just seemed like an everyday, local guy."

Faiez and al-Shehri paid $US4500 each for first-class seats on United 
Airlines Flight 175. Both gave their address as a post box at a Mail Boxes 
Etc store in Florida.

Al-Hamzi, who lived in San Diego, used online travel agency Travelocity to 
book a seat on American Airlines Flight 77. He, too, preferred Visa. 



From michael.ritchie  Mon Sep 17 07:59:41 2001
From: michael.ritchie (Michael Karl Ritchie)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 06:59:41 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetic Response
Message-ID: <v02140b00b7cb952432c0@[199.184.205.39]>

Why Are We So Hated?

        - Headline in Arkansas Democrat Gazette

My maternal great-aunt honored her Irish
lineage by hating anybody who was Catholic,
writing all my cousins out of her will, and not
until they had children did she change her mind.

I grew up sickened by religious wars,
with each denomination proud of being
chosen for Heaven as the elect of God
among all visions of the body of Christ.

For fundamentalists east and west,
tolerance of others is the great Satan
as pagan as an American Thanksgiving
where all are welcome at the family table.

It takes a lot of killing to unify the nation.
Now somebody else wants only his God
to hold for ransom absolute imperium,
blood by blood by bloodstained blood.

Dr. Mike
09.16.01


A Moratorium on Seeing

I was made to see the top
of President Kennedy's head
blown up and off and back,
thanks to the Zapruder film.

I refused to turn on the television
for weeks, but in the checkout
at the supermarket, there on the cover
of a popular magazine was the belly
of the Challenger in a ball of flame.

There is a lot I have been made to see,
including things I never wanted to --
home videos and lunchroom
surveilance tapes.

I demand a moratorium on seeing.
It aids the enemy. It numbs the people.
It sickens me that I must watch this violence
inserted as a background screen
during an interview with a public official.
It makes me feel helpless when I should take action.

Show it once -- maybe.
Once more for those working the night shift,
but not repeatedly, over and over. Put a face,
and a name, and a story
to each of the victims. Invite
all their friends and family
to spend hours with the American public,
weeping and laughing
in everybody's living room.

Dr. Mike
09.16.01





From Henry_Gould  Mon Sep 17 08:53:45 2001
From: Henry_Gould (Henry Gould)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:53:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] essay on a response
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010917084649.00a98ef0@postoffice.brown.edu>

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From JBCM2  Mon Sep 17 10:10:31 2001
From: JBCM2 (JBCM2 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:10:31 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Palestinians cheered -- in 1991!
Message-ID: <164.fbad50.28d75e57@aol.com>

>All around the  world we are subjected to 3 or 4 huge news distributors,
>and one of them - as  you well know - is CNN. Very well, I guess all of
>you have been seeing (just  as I've been) images from this company. In
>particular, one set of images  called my attencion: the Palestinians
>celebrating the bombing, out on the  streets, eating some cake and making
>funny faces for the camera.
>
>Well,  THOSE IMAGES WERE SHOT BACK IN 1991!!! Those are images of
>Palestinians  celebrating the invasion of Kuwait! It's simply
>unacceptable that a  super-power of cumminications as CNN uses images
>which do not correspond to  the reality in talking about so serious an
>issue.
>
>A teacher of mine,  here in Brazil, has videotapes recorded in 1991, with
>the very same images;  he's been sending emails to CNN, Globo (the major
>TV network in Brazil) and  newspapers, denouncing what I myself classify
>as a crime against the public  opinion. If anyone of you has access to
>this kind of files, serch for it. In  the meanwhile, I'll try to 'put my
>hands' on a copy of this tape.
>
>But  now, think for a moment about the impact of such images. Your people is
>hurt,  emotionally fragile, and this kind broadcast have very high
>possibility of  causing waves of anger and rage against Palestinians. It's
>simply  irresponsible to show images such as those.
>
>........Best regards, and the  hope that everything is resolved for the
>best of all
>of us
>
>Mrcio A. V.  Carvalho
>State University of Campinas - Brazil



From david.bircumshaw  Fri Sep 14 21:19:09 2001
From: david.bircumshaw (david.bircumshaw)
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 02:19:09 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: US Attacks
Message-ID: <003601c13d84$6cd8a7c0$8bf4a8c0@netserver>

Alison Croggon has asked if I would forward this request for submissions etc
onto other lists, if that's ok with you, Jim.


Best


David Bircumshaw

Leicester, England

A Chide's Alphabet
www.chidesplay.8m.com

Painting Without Numbers
www.paintstuff.20m.com/default.htm
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/default.htm

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alison Croggon" <acroggon at BIGPOND.COM>
To: <BRITISH-POETS at JISCMAIL.AC.UK>
Sent: Thursday, September 13, 2001 2:32 AM
Subject: US attacks


> Apologies for cross-posting -
>
> I am setting up a page on the new masthead site
> (http://au.geocities.com/masthead_2/) for responses by poets to what has
> happened.
>
> I want to do this quickly, so submissions/ideas should be emailed to me by
> early next week.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Alison
>
Alison Croggon

Home page
http://users.bigpond.com/acroggon/
Masthead
http://au.geocities.com/masthead_2/





From wasanthony  Mon Sep 17 10:52:16 2001
From: wasanthony (jcervantes)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 07:52:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] essay on a response
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20010917084649.00a98ef0@postoffice.brown.edu>
Message-ID: <20010917145216.40400.qmail@web12107.mail.yahoo.com>

Thanks, Henry.  That's essentially the message I have been expressing
and promoting here and there.  The hope now comes from hearing more and
more people express similar thoughts and sentiments.

- Jim

--- Henry Gould <Henry_Gould at brown.edu> wrote:

<HR>
<html>
I wrote the following op-ed type essay last night.&nbsp; I'm sending it
to new-poets for those who might be<br>
interested; I won't respond to vituperative or ad hominem replies to
it.&nbsp;&nbsp; In fact I'd rather not debate it at all in this forum;
people interested can backchannel me.&nbsp; Thanks to all those who've
sent the great poems in the past few days.<br>
<br>
Henry<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<font face="Times New Roman, Times"><b>Ultimate Strategic Weapon :
Peacemaking<br>
<br>
<br>
</b>Like a powerful earthquake, the attacks of September 11th have
thrown
Americans off-balance.&nbsp; My brother, an airplane mechanic for
Northwest in his late forties, is aching to enlist in the Marines,
though
he is too old by twenty years.&nbsp; All of us, confronted by an
elusive
threat such as the U.S. has never faced before, are scrambling to find
the right response.&nbsp; President Bush has declared an all-out,
worldwide war against terrorism; longstanding warnings of
anti-terrorism
experts are finally being heeded.&nbsp; Yet from the outset, the
President and others have acknowledged that this will be a long and
difficult campaign.&nbsp; Osama bin Laden is merely the tip of an
iceberg, whose &quot;base&quot; (Al Qaeda, the terrorist network)
includes thousands of trained recruits planted in every corner of the
globe, within an alliance of dozens of separate organizations, each
dedicated to a ruthless strategy of mass murder of civilians.&nbsp;
Even
more important, this terror network is an evil flower rooted in the
deep
soil of anti-Western, anti-American sentiment and ideology - nourished
by
generations of &quot;Islamic jihad&quot; fundamentalism.&nbsp; As long
as
the soil is rich, the flowers will keep blooming.<br>
<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>It is
clear from the frightening intelligence of these simultaneously
symbolic
and horrific acts, that we are dealing with a highly sophisticated
enemy.&nbsp; This war will be at least as much psychological and
diplomatic as it is military.&nbsp; For this we must bring our own most
sophisticated psychological and political weapons to bear.&nbsp; We
must
overcome our own woeful ignorance of the enemy, our ignorance of the
entire Middle Eastern region and the cultures from which this attack
proceeded.&nbsp; I would go further than that.&nbsp; We must not only
&quot;know the enemy&quot;:&nbsp; we must take the radically religious
step of &quot;loving&quot; our enemy.&nbsp; Such a paradoxical step may
in the end prove to be this war's most powerful weapon.<br>
<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>By
&quot;loving&quot; our enemy - that is, by seeking to understand the
complex of grievances and desires which underly the campaigns of
terror,
and by engaging the Middle East in constructive peacemaking - we might
succeed in driving a wedge between jihad fundamentalism and its
reactionary hatreds on the one hand, and the majority of that region's
people on the other.&nbsp; We must go much further than avoiding
&quot;collateral damage&quot; (a chilling euphemism) as we bombard
terrorist training camps and recalcitrant capitals - actions which,
while
they might put a temporary dent in the terrorist networks, may in the
end
only strengthen them, in the same way that the attacks on New York and
Washington have stiffened our own resolve.&nbsp; We must go much
further,
by means of an innovative flanking movement, and make peacemaking -
constructive engagement - central to our diplomacy in the region.<br>
<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Engagement
would involve:&nbsp; entering into a dialogue with Islamic leaders
regarding the future of U.S. power and presence in the Middle East;
initiating a broad campaign against poverty and unemployment in
countries
like Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Sudan and Pakistan, where
gaps between rich and poor have long been breeding grounds for
terrorist
fundamentalism; rethinking our relationship with autocratic regimes,
both
secular and fundamentalist - making our aid to those countries
dependent
on democratic reforms; exerting strong pressure on both Israel and
Palestine to make the necessary compromises for peace and
reconciliation.<br>
<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>However,
the American public cannot expect the government to proceed with these
difficult steps on its own.&nbsp; The ultimate weapon -
peacemaking&nbsp;
must be deployed by a grassroots movement, which will influence not
only
Western governments, but also the worldview of our
&quot;enemies.&quot;&nbsp; I envision a global alliance of Christians,
Jews, Muslims and &quot;secularists&quot;, consisting of local
discussion
groups and a consensus-built international program.&nbsp; The basic
outline of this program would include a statement of religious
principles, including a shared belief, among the three religions, in
one
loving God, and a dedication, by all four groups, to basic human rights
and freedoms.&nbsp; The program would include specific gestures of good
will, acknowledging both differences and mutual interdependence.<br>
<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Beyond
such a statement of good faith, the program would advocate political,
cultural and economic approaches designed to counter the endemic hatred
of the West, the endemic Arab-Israeli conflict, the endemic poverty and
political oppression in the Middle East. The alliance would, on the one
hand, press the U.S. and other governments to implement such
peacemaking
policies; on the other, it would seek to engage in direct dialogue and
joint projects in the region - in order to foster mutual understanding,
and further marginalize the ideologies of hatred, cultural chauvinism,
and aggression.<br>
<br>
<x-tab>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</x-tab>Of
course,
the U.S. government, intent on opposing the immediate military threat,
is
in no position to undertake a general program of social reform,
especially not one that smacks of appeasement for terrorism.&nbsp; But
the phenomenon of jihad terrorism is essentially an extremely corrupt,
vicious exploitation of the spiritual and cultural aspirations of the
Middle East. The people of these three related faiths, united together
with secular organizations dedicated to human rights and social
justice,
are in the best position to bring the necessary spiritual-cultural
armaments to bear. Such a movement, representing the unity of the three
religions along with secular civil liberties, and dedicated to
promoting
social justice and democracy in the Middle East, could prove to be the
ultimate long-term weapon in winning the fearsome old-new war in which
we
are now engaged. <br>
<br>
</font>Henry Gould<br>
<br>
********************************************************<br>



=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
"Ripples" @ <http://www.poetserv.net>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/



From GrahamD  Mon Sep 17 11:40:18 2001
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 10:40:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] WCW
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDEEC@mail.ripon.edu>

It's William Carlos Williams's birthday.   I'm not much in a celebrating
mood, but neither was he, in the following poem.



These

are the desolate, dark weeks
when nature in its barrenness
equals the stupidity of man.

The year plunges into night
and the heart plunges
lower than night

to an empty, windswept place
without sun, stars or moon
but a peculiar light as of thought

that spins a dark fire --
whirling upon itself until,
in the cold, it kindles

to make a man aware of nothing
that he knows, not loneliness
itself -- Not a ghost but

would be embraced -- emptiness
despair -- (They
whine and whistle) among

the flashes and booms of war;
houses of whose rooms
the cold is greater than can be thought,

the people gone that we loved,
the beds lying empty, the couches
damp, the chairs unused --

Hide it away somewhere
out of mind, let it get roots
and grow, unrelated to jealous

ears and eyes -- for itself.
In this mine they come to dig -- all.
Is this the counterfoil to sweetest

music?  The source of poetry that
seeing the clock stopped, says,
The clock has stopped

that ticked yesterday so well?
and hears the sound of lakewater
splashing -- that is now stone.
      ---William Carlos Williams
--------------------------


===================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
===================



From moira_russell  Mon Sep 17 11:46:12 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 07:46:12 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] essay on a response
Message-ID: <F561EQusx4ndSWSNJyB0001d4d6@hotmail.com>

"I won't respond to vituperative or ad hominem replies to it.   In fact I'd 
rather not debate it at all in this forum; people interested can backchannel 
me."

Ack.  Then why submit it at all then?  Posting a message to a public forum 
and then forbidding people to comment on it 
seems......................rather unkosher.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

Wise Wretch! with Pleasures too refin'd to please;
With too much Spirit to be e'er at ease;
With too much Quickness ever to be taught;
With too much Thinking to have common Thought:
You purchase Pain with all that Joy can give,
And die of nothing but a Rage to live.
-- Alexander Pope





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From Henry_Gould  Mon Sep 17 08:53:45 2001
From: Henry_Gould (Henry Gould)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:53:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] essay on a response
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010917084649.00a98ef0@postoffice.brown.edu>

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From Henry_Gould  Mon Sep 17 11:53:36 2001
From: Henry_Gould (Henry Gould)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 11:53:36 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] historical background
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010917114940.00a9b160@postoffice.brown.edu>

This short article by Ahmed Rashid provides a lot of detailed information 
on the history of
relations between bin Laden, the CIA, & the wider islamic militant networks.

www.public-i.org/excerpts_01_091301.htm


********************************************************
HG afloat:  www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html
www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark
    "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam




From JBCM2  Mon Sep 17 16:29:23 2001
From: JBCM2 (JBCM2 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 16:29:23 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] They can't see why they are hated
Message-ID: <a.12b6a523.28d7b723@aol.com>


    
 

Americans cannot ignore what their government does abroad

Special report: Terrorism in the US 

Seumas Milne
Thursday September 13, 2001
The Guardian 

Nearly two days after the horrific suicide attacks on civilian workers in New 
York and Washington, it has become painfully clear that most Americans simply 
don't get it. From the president to passersby on the streets, the message 
seems to be the same: this is an inexplicable assault on freedom and 
democracy, which must be answered with overwhelming force - just as soon as 
someone can construct a credible account of who was actually responsible. 
Shock, rage and grief there has been aplenty. But any glimmer of recognition 
of why people might have been driven to carry out such atrocities, 
sacrificing their own lives in the process - or why the United States is 
hated with such bitterness, not only in Arab and Muslim countries, but across 
the developing world - seems almost entirely absent. Perhaps it is too much 
to hope that, as rescue workers struggle to pull firefighters from the 
rubble, any but a small minority might make the connection between what has 
been visited upon them and what their government has visited upon large parts 
of the world. 

But make that connection they must, if such tragedies are not to be repeated, 
potentially with even more devastating consequences. US political leaders are 
doing their people no favours by reinforcing popular ignorance with 
self-referential rhetoric. And the echoing chorus of Tony Blair, whose 
determination to bind Britain ever closer to US foreign policy ratchets up 
the threat to our own cities, will only fuel anti-western sentiment. So will 
calls for the defence of "civilisation", with its overtones of Samuel 
Huntington's poisonous theories of post-cold war confrontation between the 
west and Islam, heightening perceptions of racism and hypocrisy. 

As Mahatma Gandhi famously remarked when asked his opinion of western 
civilisation, it would be a good idea. Since George Bush's father inaugurated 
his new world order a decade ago, the US, supported by its British ally, 
bestrides the world like a colossus. Unconstrained by any superpower rival or 
system of global governance, the US giant has rewritten the global financial 
and trading system in its own interest; ripped up a string of treaties it 
finds inconvenient; sent troops to every corner of the globe; bombed 
Afghanistan, Sudan, Yugoslavia and Iraq without troubling the United Nations; 
maintained a string of murderous embargos against recalcitrant regimes; and 
recklessly thrown its weight behind Israel's 34-year illegal military 
occupation of the West Bank and Gaza as the Palestinian intifada rages. 

If, as yesterday's Wall Street Journal insisted, the east coast carnage was 
the fruit of the Clinton administration's Munich-like appeasement of the 
Palestinians, the mind boggles as to what US Republicans imagine to be a 
Churchillian response. 

It is this record of unabashed national egotism and arrogance that drives 
anti-Americanism among swaths of the world's population, for whom there is 
little democracy in the current distribution of global wealth and power. If 
it turns out that Tuesday's attacks were the work of Osama bin Laden's 
supporters, the sense that the Americans are once again reaping a dragons' 
teeth harvest they themselves sowed will be overwhelming. 

It was the Americans, after all, who poured resources into the 1980s war 
against the Soviet-backed regime in Kabul, at a time when girls could go to 
school and women to work. Bin Laden and his mojahedin were armed and trained 
by the CIA and MI6, as Afghanistan was turned into a wasteland and its 
communist leader Najibullah left hanging from a Kabul lamp post with his 
genitals stuffed in his mouth. 

But by then Bin Laden had turned against his American sponsors, while 
US-sponsored Pakistani intelligence had spawned the grotesque Taliban now 
protecting him. To punish its wayward Afghan offspring, the US subsequently 
forced through a sanctions regime which has helped push 4m to the brink of 
starvation, according to the latest UN figures, while Afghan refugees fan out 
across the world. 

All this must doubtless seem remote to Americans desperately searching the 
debris of what is expected to be the largest-ever massacre on US soil - as 
must the killings of yet more Palestinians in the West Bank yesterday, or 
even the 2m estimated to have died in Congo's wars since the overthrow of the 
US-backed Mobutu regime. "What could some political thing have to do with 
blowing up office buildings during working hours?" one bewildered New Yorker 
asked yesterday. 

Already, the Bush administration is assembling an international coalition for 
an Israeli-style war against terrorism, as if such counter-productive acts of 
outrage had an existence separate from the social conditions out of which 
they arise. But for every "terror network" that is rooted out, another will 
emerge - until the injustices and inequalities that produce them are 
addressed. 
 



From paul.lake  Mon Sep 17 06:12:28 2001
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 05:12:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] They can't see why
Message-ID: <B7CB36BC.1C10%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

For the anonymous "JCBM2" who posted the article from The Guardian without
signing his or her post, here's a little squib by Jay Nordinger that may at
least be more relevant than an embarrassed cough.

Paul Lake

>From Impromtus
By Jay Nordinger

When I was young, I was quite the little Arabist ? cocksure, arrogant,
wholly misguided. I grew up in Ann Arbor, Mich., and there were many Arab
students ? most of them Palestinian ? in my high school. I befriended them,
loved them. Was intensely interested in them. Some wore keys around their
necks, and they claimed that these were the keys to the homes back in
Palestine their families had been forced to abandon. I was mightily
impressed. Later on, I knew to doubt the authenticity of those keys.

I remember one girl, who liked me, asking, ?Jay, you?re not Jewish, are
you?? She had to be reassured before our friendship could continue.

I was taught to believe that the Arab-Israeli conflict was very much like
the American South: a civil-rights struggle. The Arabs were the blacks ? the
victims, the oppressed. The Israelis were the whites, the oppressors.
Menachem Begin was pretty much George Wallace; his defense minister, Ariel
Sharon, was Bull Connor (they even looked alike). Arafat, of course, was
Martin Luther King. It seemed very clear.

In due course, I grew up, but it took a while. I enrolled in the Near
Eastern Studies Department at the University of Michigan, where I took
several courses, including the Arabic language. The department was dominated
by extremists. The graduate assistants, certainly, were Arabs to the ?left?
of the PLO, meaning, they took Arafat and Co. to be sell-outs, untrue to the
cause. There was no discussion of the legitimacy of Israel: It wasn?t
discussable; Israel was illegitimate, and every worthy person knew it.

One day, we trooped into an auditorium to see a documentary on the conflict.
I can?t remember the name of the documentary or of the documentary-maker,
but I can see her, and she was on hand to introduce her film and to take
questions. The film featured mainly radical Palestinians talking about
dismembering Israel.

During the Q&A, a middle-aged white woman ? a little fat ? raised her hand
and asked the following question: ?These were such extreme voices. You?ve
made a wonderful film, but couldn?t you have found some softer, more
moderate voices?? 

In the row in which I was sitting were several Arab students ? older ones,
graduate students ? and one of them, in front of everybody, stood up and
said words I will never forget. I won?t forget the words, or his face, or
his relatively quiet, determined tone. He said: ?I will kill you.? (This was
directed at the woman who had asked the question.) His buddies got him to
sit down.

But that?s not the important part ? what he said is not the important part.
The important part is, no one said a word. No one reacted. We all sort of
coughed, and looked away, nervously. We all pretended that what had just
occurred had not, in fact, occurred ? or that it was normal, acceptable. We
simply ignored it.

Eventually, I took another path, both at the university and in my own
thought. I could never be convinced that America and its influence were
evil. I could not be convinced that Israel was illegitimate. And I could not
accept the ?I will kill you? and our complete cowardice, or complicity, in
the face of it.

I sort of vowed, inwardly, that I wouldn?t be afraid, wouldn?t be
intimidated, by Arab extremism. We all dance delicately around it. We tend
to sweep it under the rug. We look away, all politically correct, and cough
. I further vowed that, unlike my fellow white liberals, I would pay Arabs
the compliment of treating them as full human beings, accountable for their
words and actions, capable of good or bad, like everyone else ? morally
responsible. I wouldn?t treat them as children, unable to help a certain
savagery. I wouldn?t ?understand? that savagery, in the sense my teachers
intended. I wouldn?t have double, or triple, or quadruple standards. All men
were equal.

My lessons were hard, but they have lasted, and I believe they are right
ones.
 




From JBCM2  Mon Sep 17 18:18:34 2001
From: JBCM2 (JBCM2 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:18:34 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] They can't see why
Message-ID: <108.5a18f6a.28d7d0ba@aol.com>

I don't see the relevance of Paul Lake's article as a response to the article 
I posted, but then I never see the relevance of Paul Lake's remarks.  I 
suppose we should be grateful that he has, vicariously it seems, indicated 
his impression of the racist nature of arabs the world over, and how 
unreasonable, murderous, etc., they are.  I can only conclude from this that 
he's in agreement with US policy in the Middle Ease, even if he doesn't know 
what it is.

joe brennan....

In a message dated 09/17/2001 5:25:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes:

<< 
 For the anonymous "JCBM2" who posted the article from The Guardian without
 signing his or her post, here's a little squib by Jay Nordinger that may at
 least be more relevant than an embarrassed cough.
 
 Paul Lake
 
 >From Impromtus
 By Jay Nordinger
 
 When I was young, I was quite the little Arabist ? cocksure, arrogant,
 wholly misguided. I grew up in Ann Arbor, Mich., and there were many Arab
 students ? most of them Palestinian ? in my high school. I befriended them,
 loved them. Was intensely interested in them. Some wore keys around their
 necks, and they claimed that these were the keys to the homes back in
 Palestine their families had been forced to abandon. I was mightily
 impressed. Later on, I knew to doubt the authenticity of those keys.
 
 I remember one girl, who liked me, asking, ?Jay, you?re not Jewish, are
 you?? She had to be reassured before our friendship could continue.
 
 I was taught to believe that the Arab-Israeli conflict was very much like
 the American South: a civil-rights struggle. The Arabs were the blacks ? the
 victims, the oppressed. The Israelis were the whites, the oppressors.
 Menachem Begin was pretty much George Wallace; his defense minister, Ariel
 Sharon, was Bull Connor (they even looked alike). Arafat, of course, was
 Martin Luther King. It seemed very clear.
 
 In due course, I grew up, but it took a while. I enrolled in the Near
 Eastern Studies Department at the University of Michigan, where I took
 several courses, including the Arabic language. The department was dominated
 by extremists. The graduate assistants, certainly, were Arabs to the ?left?
 of the PLO, meaning, they took Arafat and Co. to be sell-outs, untrue to the
 cause. There was no discussion of the legitimacy of Israel: It wasn?t
 discussable; Israel was illegitimate, and every worthy person knew it.
 
 One day, we trooped into an auditorium to see a documentary on the conflict.
 I can?t remember the name of the documentary or of the documentary-maker,
 but I can see her, and she was on hand to introduce her film and to take
 questions. The film featured mainly radical Palestinians talking about
 dismembering Israel.
 
 During the Q&A, a middle-aged white woman ? a little fat ? raised her hand
 and asked the following question: ?These were such extreme voices. You?ve
 made a wonderful film, but couldn?t you have found some softer, more
 moderate voices?? 
 
 In the row in which I was sitting were several Arab students ? older ones,
 graduate students ? and one of them, in front of everybody, stood up and
 said words I will never forget. I won?t forget the words, or his face, or
 his relatively quiet, determined tone. He said: ?I will kill you.? (This was
 directed at the woman who had asked the question.) His buddies got him to
 sit down.
 
 But that?s not the important part ? what he said is not the important part.
 The important part is, no one said a word. No one reacted. We all sort of
 coughed, and looked away, nervously. We all pretended that what had just
 occurred had not, in fact, occurred ? or that it was normal, acceptable. We
 simply ignored it.
 
 Eventually, I took another path, both at the university and in my own
 thought. I could never be convinced that America and its influence were
 evil. I could not be convinced that Israel was illegitimate. And I could not
 accept the ?I will kill you? and our complete cowardice, or complicity, in
 the face of it.
 
 I sort of vowed, inwardly, that I wouldn?t be afraid, wouldn?t be
 intimidated, by Arab extremism. We all dance delicately around it. We tend
 to sweep it under the rug. We look away, all politically correct, and cough
 . I further vowed that, unlike my fellow white liberals, I would pay Arabs
 the compliment of treating them as full human beings, accountable for their
 words and actions, capable of good or bad, like everyone else ? morally
 responsible. I wouldn?t treat them as children, unable to help a certain
 savagery. I wouldn?t ?understand? that savagery, in the sense my teachers
 intended. I wouldn?t have double, or triple, or quadruple standards. All men
 were equal.
 
 My lessons were hard, but they have lasted, and I believe they are right
 ones.
   >>



From adead_poet  Mon Sep 17 18:20:26 2001
From: adead_poet (dead poet)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:20:26 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] more essays needed
Message-ID: <F155iKAe2hXSDx1kLwx00017852@hotmail.com>

once again i need some help finding a few essays on a web page. i've done 
some searching and didn't find them. if anyone knows where i could find them 
online, please let me know. they are:

Edmund Wilson's "Is Verse a Dying Technique"
Witold Gombrowicz "Against Poets"
Randall Jarrell "The OBscurity of the Poet"
Randall Jarrell "The Taste of the Age"
Delmore Schwartz "The Isolation of Modern Poetry"
Delmore Schwartz "The Vocation of the Poet"
Delmore Schwartz "The Present State of Poetry"
Delmore Schwartz "Views of a Second Violin, Some Answers to Questions
     about Writing Poetry"
and the essay by Karl Shapiro, which i don't know the title (it is mentioned 
in epstein's "who killed poetry?" and thanks again for leading me to that 
essay) where he talks about the B-S-K theory of poetry.

thanks to anyone who can help me on my quest for essays.

jason



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From duemer  Mon Sep 17 18:20:20 2001
From: duemer (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:20:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] more essays needed
References: <F155iKAe2hXSDx1kLwx00017852@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <006201c13fc6$f09bc760$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

Dear Dead Poet,
you ever try the library? That's the big building where they keep the books?
======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
======================








From moira_russell  Mon Sep 17 18:48:45 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:48:45 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] more essays needed
Message-ID: <F119aJswFCHOzyfyz5b0000004d@hotmail.com>

>Dear Dead Poet,
>you ever try the library? That's the big building where they keep the 
>books?

OK, claws IN.  I suggest Google.com or some of the other highly effective 
search engines.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

_________________________________________________________________
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From duemer  Mon Sep 17 18:43:43 2001
From: duemer (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:43:43 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] They can't see why
References: <B7CB36BC.1C10%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <006b01c13fca$34595d20$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

The essay by Jay Nordinger neatly demonizes the Arab world, providing a
rationale for a war against the barbarians. We, of course, are defacto
civilized. The fact that Nordinger has studied Arabic culture & language
makes him all the more culpable. In fact, the most important contribution
the US could make to the reduction of terrorist violence would be to take an
active role in creating a nation for the Palestinians by suggesting to
Israel that the 3 billion or so we spend every year on their military
hardware might be cut off. I'm dreaming, of course.

======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
======================








From adead_poet  Mon Sep 17 18:55:03 2001
From: adead_poet (dead poet)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:55:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] more essays needed
Message-ID: <F262bQHobPJ4uK3peeF00016511@hotmail.com>

well, i live in a mid size town that has a horrible library system. great 
example is you can't find any works by pound, eliot, only the second half of 
wc williams, and furthermore, they don't even carry sam gwynn's books, and 
he lives here. not a great library. trust me, i've been there. i don't 
attend the university, so it makes it rather tough to check out books from 
there.

but thank you for your valuable input,

jason



>From: "Joseph Duemer" <duemer at clarkson.edu>
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] more essays needed
>Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:20:20 -0400
>
>Dear Dead Poet,
>you ever try the library? That's the big building where they keep the 
>books?
>======================
>Joseph Duemer
>School of Liberal Arts, 5750
>Clarkson University
>Potsdam NY 13699
>315.268.3967
>======================
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From adead_poet  Mon Sep 17 18:59:59 2001
From: adead_poet (dead poet)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:59:59 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] more essays needed
Message-ID: <F160A5lG82oKrTPh05x00017a0b@hotmail.com>

thank you moira. like you i don't see the point in attacking someone who is 
looking for information. that kind of attitude can make people not even want 
to bother to learn more about poetry.

i did try google. no luck. i found reviews of the books that have these 
essays in them. and one day i'll probably buy those collections, but for 
now, i just want to read the articles. i also tried yahoo. what other search 
engines would you suggest i use. i really only know about google and yahoo, 
so if anyone knows of others that are good, please let me know which ones. i 
only learned of google a few months ago when i posted asking if anyone knew 
of web sites that held biographical information on some lesser known poets. 
i can't remember who it was that pointed out google to me, but i've found it 
to be very helpful.

jason


>From: "Moira Russell" <moira_russell at hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] more essays needed
>Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:48:45 -0800
>
>
>>Dear Dead Poet,
>>you ever try the library? That's the big building where they keep the
>>books?
>
>OK, claws IN.  I suggest Google.com or some of the other highly effective
>search engines.
>
>Moira Russell
>Seattle, WA
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
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From msnider  Mon Sep 17 19:06:13 2001
From: msnider (Michael Snider)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:06:13 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] They can't see why
In-Reply-To: <006b01c13fca$34595d20$18724342@twcny.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200109172310.TAA15292@hall.mail.mindspring.net>

On Monday, September 17, 2001, at 06:43 PM, Joseph Duemer wrote:

> Jay Nordinger neatly demonizes the Arab world

No, not the Arab world, but those (Arab and others) who have accepted 
the caricature of history presented in Seumas Milne's Guardian article 
and taught by what the Turks call "Islamci" -- those who peddle Islam to 
gain political power.  They are Jerry Falwell with guns.



From JBCM2  Mon Sep 17 19:26:36 2001
From: JBCM2 (JBCM2 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:26:36 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] They can't see why
Message-ID: <b8.1b74805a.28d7e0ac@aol.com>

In a message dated 09/17/2001 7:12:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
msnider at mindspring.com writes:

<< 
 No, not the Arab world, but those (Arab and others) who have accepted 
 the caricature of history presented in Seumas Milne's Guardian article 
 and taught by what the Turks call "Islamci" -- those who peddle Islam to 
 gain political power.  They are Jerry Falwell with guns.
  >>

The real caricature is the presentation of Milne's article as something other 
than factual so one can continue to enjoy one's lifestyle without regard to 
the death and destruction that's required to maintain it.  If we accept the 
above apologia, then every arab who doesn't accept the consequences of US 
hegemony in the Middle East is by definition one of the Islamci.  The level 
of ignorance required to hold this view is breathtaking, especially by those 
who take pride in considering themselves educated and informed.

joe brennan



From duemer  Mon Sep 17 19:27:44 2001
From: duemer (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:27:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] They can't see why
References: <200109172310.TAA15292@hall.mail.mindspring.net>
Message-ID: <008201c13fd0$6145db00$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

Michael,
with all due respect, where exactly does Nordinger make the distinction
between good Arabs & bad ones? And even if he does, doesn't this distinction
ring a bell? You know, American history? You know, slavery?

I've spent a good deal of time living in the "developing world" & until
Americans can imagine what it is like to be the other, I suggest we think
very carefully about going in with guns blazing.

In Vietnam, where I have spent about 20% of my time over the last five
years, individual Americans are welcomed, but the Vietnamese make an easy
distinction between Americans & American foreign policy, which they resent
like hell. I was living in Hanoi when the US was bombing Yugoslavia & there
was tremendous anger at the US throwing its weight around, even while there
was a recognition that the Yugoslav government--even though it was a sister
socialist republic--was oppressive & corrupt. Mostly, the Vietnamese saw
American bombs falling on a small country. The Vietnamese have memories that
go back 3000 years: they still name streets after the Trung Sisters, who
threw the Chinese out of their country 1500 years ago. You think the jungles
of the Central Highlands were a soldier's nightmare? Wait till we get the
pictures from the Kiber Pass.

Ordinary Muslims from Mecca to Fez feel aggrieved at the United States'
unjust & unreflective & racist support for Israel & they do not like us.
They might even be glad that we have had our imaginations activated by
terror. Are all of them members of Al Qaeda? No. Mostly, like us, they would
like to live in a world more just than the one they live in now. Are they
bad Muslims or good ones?

Poets might consider the power of imagination. Imagine the coming war.
Imagine the loss of civil liberties at home. But, before you urge war,
imagine what it  is  like to be the other. Finally, if you read this post as
a rationalization or excuse for terrorism, you haven't understood anything.

Joe
======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
======================








From duemer  Mon Sep 17 19:44:24 2001
From: duemer (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:44:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] more essays needed
References: <F160A5lG82oKrTPh05x00017a0b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <009601c13fd2$aea7d040$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

<<thank you moira. like you i don't see the point in attacking someone who
is looking for information. that kind of attitude can make people not even
want to bother to learn more about poetry.>>

I hope that this list isn't going to enforce behaviors suitable for a bridge
club. I think it's swell that you want to learn more about poetry. One thing
you might want to know is that much of what  you want is not on the
internet, or shouldn't be, because it is protected by copyright. Suck it up
& buy the books & if you can't afford them, I would not be surprised if the
college library in your town as limited borrowing privileges for independent
scholars.

Joe

======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
======================








From wasanthony  Mon Sep 17 20:03:10 2001
From: wasanthony (jcervantes)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:03:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] View From the Bridge
Message-ID: <20010918000310.1311.qmail@web12106.mail.yahoo.com>

View From the Bridge


Somewhere between the antipodes,
the captain on the bridge.

Frozen between the antipodes,
his view fore and aft, his face

in the telescope's large end,
diminished ocean fore and aft.

Ocean roil at either end, 
small and tight, contained, 

light always from the side.
The frozen captain on the bridge,

caught between the antipodes
in diminished time, might turn

the telescope. Waves fore and aft,
light captain drowns in light.


- Jim, 9/17/01



=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
"Ripples" @ <http://www.poetserv.net>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/



From aprentiss  Mon Sep 17 20:11:31 2001
From: aprentiss (Prentiss, Amber)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:11:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] more essays needed
Message-ID: <E7C06C25D501D511BA9900508BB82AA90DE19A@ness.agnesscott.edu>

I don't know of any lbiraries with independent scholar borrowing
priveleges(the dependent scholars are bad enough about returning things),
but a better way is to figure out which journals the essays were first
published in. Go to that library (around a time that would not correspond
with midterms or finals), sign in as a guest, and ask a friendly reference
librarian (who likely wouldn't know if you went there or not)how you might
find The Dusty Journals of Criticism you are looking for and see if they
carry the correct years. Bring a lot of change and make copies. They might
also have these things on microfilm. Plus, as you find the articles, you can
see if you think they are even worth copying and save some change.

-A
-----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Duemer
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: 9/17/01 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] more essays needed

<<thank you moira. like you i don't see the point in attacking someone
who
is looking for information. that kind of attitude can make people not
even
want to bother to learn more about poetry.>>

I hope that this list isn't going to enforce behaviors suitable for a
bridge
club. I think it's swell that you want to learn more about poetry. One
thing
you might want to know is that much of what  you want is not on the
internet, or shouldn't be, because it is protected by copyright. Suck it
up
& buy the books & if you can't afford them, I would not be surprised if
the
college library in your town as limited borrowing privileges for
independent
scholars.

Joe

======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
======================





_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From antrobin  Mon Sep 17 20:16:37 2001
From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:16:37 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] "war poem"
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010917084649.00a98ef0@postoffice.brown.edu>
Message-ID: <005401c13fd7$3155a720$43aeefd8@0021936706>

Argentina
Forty years after the war

We've wasted so much time here, you and I,
that I no longer know where I was born.
If someone asks I tell them it's a story
better left unsaid-perhaps unmade.
I left traces in the mouths of many
before you darling.  Women, children too.
I've seen many ends, have lit slim candles,
witnessed love and strength crushed like a flame,
and I've seen flame: a still and silent beacon.
Your hair is ashy now but I recall
the way it felt that summer I first saw you.
I was fresh from war, and tired, beaten.
You were the brown daughter of a gaucho.
I still had my boots, my guns, my leather;
and when we kissed, the smell of cow hide
filled my nose, never sure if it was me or you.
Sometimes now, the smell of flesh returns,
burning sweet like ochre autumn leaves,
or gas, or freshly rendered fat, pressed cleanly
into cakes of soap.  When your papery lips
touch mine, I smell the end again and clutch
your body close. How brittle you've become!


Tony




From tadrichards  Mon Sep 17 20:49:26 2001
From: tadrichards (theoldmole)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:49:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] more essays needed
References: <F160A5lG82oKrTPh05x00017a0b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <00d501c13fdb$c49b8a00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

Jason -- I've found www.alltheweb.com useful for some things, but not
everything is on the internet. Is it possible to get anything from your
local library through interlibrary loan? That's frustrating, I know, and
takes forever, but it might work. The other thing you might try, if you can
find a collection that has a few of these essays, is www.bookfinder.com,
where you may be able to find cheap used copies -- or www.half.com


  Tad Richards                       "Well said, old mole."
    The Old Mole                         Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet
    of the MoleNet                          Act I, Scene 5
          http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
----- Original Message -----
From: "dead poet" <adead_poet at hotmail.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] more essays needed


> thank you moira. like you i don't see the point in attacking someone who
is
> looking for information. that kind of attitude can make people not even
want
> to bother to learn more about poetry.
>
> i did try google. no luck. i found reviews of the books that have these
> essays in them. and one day i'll probably buy those collections, but for
> now, i just want to read the articles. i also tried yahoo. what other
search
> engines would you suggest i use. i really only know about google and
yahoo,
> so if anyone knows of others that are good, please let me know which ones.
i
> only learned of google a few months ago when i posted asking if anyone
knew
> of web sites that held biographical information on some lesser known
poets.
> i can't remember who it was that pointed out google to me, but i've found
it
> to be very helpful.
>
> jason
>
>
> >From: "Moira Russell" <moira_russell at hotmail.com>
> >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] more essays needed
> >Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:48:45 -0800
> >
> >
> >>Dear Dead Poet,
> >>you ever try the library? That's the big building where they keep the
> >>books?
> >
> >OK, claws IN.  I suggest Google.com or some of the other highly effective
> >search engines.
> >
> >Moira Russell
> >Seattle, WA
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From alphavil  Mon Sep 17 20:55:25 2001
From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:55:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [psyche-arts] They can't see why they are hated
References: <a.12b6a523.28d7b723@aol.com> <3BA68A3E.5567120A@sgi.net>
Message-ID: <3BA69B7D.96820B54@ix.netcom.com>

<The problem is that the radical left argues the political , as a means of
justifying or rationalizing the attack, while arguing the humanitarian as a means
to render impotent any potential response.>

How anyone can "render impotent" a 500 pound bomb is beyond me. The impotence, for
example the cycle of violence, can be discussed in both political and humanitarian
terms but not realistically in economic ones. And the fundamental attack is the
exploitation of Middle Eastern resources by the West and its fanatic consumption
fundamentalists e.g. no democracy is possible without free (sic) markets. The logical
expansion of this idea is do it our way or else. After all if this was an oil reserve
in Texas we'd be perfectly happy to let Qatar become a run down little...Oh, sorry
Qatar is one of the wealthiest countries in the world with universal health care and
free education through the University level. Wouldn't the Arab world, especially the
traditional one, be surprised to find that they couldn't run their affairs without
the likes of great western statesmen like G.W. Bush, Henry Kissinger, Spiro Agnew,
Allen Dulles, "Ruthless" Rumsfeld, Ronny "The Diseased Puppet" Reagan, Dan Quayle et
al. The events of last week have demonstrated one thing: this country has a major
surplus of xenophobic hicks. CP



Brent Dean Robbins wrote:

> There is a glaring fallacy in these arguments. One can either argue the
> humanitarian aspects of this violence, or the political.
>
> Under the political lens, the argument would go like this, "The US has stood and
> currently stands athwart the express aims of certain Islamic sects. Therefore,
> these sects are fully justified in wreaking whatever degree of warlike
> retribution against the US they deem prudent, and in so doing, they are justified
> in striving to effect their ends. This is so, even if they were to kidmap
> children and use them as a means of attack against other innocent people."
>
> The corallary to this is, "The Islamic sects have now and continue to interpose
> themselves athwart the express aims of the legitimate governments in the Mid
> East, and they have selected a wave of terrorism as the means to achieve their
> political ends. In taking any and every step to thwart their aims, even to the
> extent of using nuclear weapons to erradicate these individuals. This is
> justified, even if it means that some innocents night be killed in the process."
>
> The humanitarian argument would go: "There are ways to sit down and resolve
> differences among people who have grievances. These must be the mechanisms used
> to resolve disagreements like these. There can be no justification for the
> killing of innocent people."
>
> The problem is that the radical left argues the political , as a means of
> justifying or rationalizing the attack, while arguing the humanitarian as a means
> to render impotent any potential response.
>
> It is a fallacious argument.
>
> If the political justification is sufficient unto itself to mitigate or even
> justify the attack, then it is sufficient unto itselto justify virtually any
> response the US might effect.
>
> If the humanitarian argument is to be employed, it must be employed both ways.
>
> JBCM2 at aol.com wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >
> > Americans cannot ignore what their government does abroad
> >
> > Special report: Terrorism in the US
> >
> > Seumas Milne
> > Thursday September 13, 2001
> > The Guardian
> >
> > Nearly two days after the horrific suicide attacks on civilian workers in New
> > York and Washington, it has become painfully clear that most Americans simply
> > don't get it. From the president to passersby on the streets, the message
> > seems to be the same: this is an inexplicable assault on freedom and
> > democracy, which must be answered with overwhelming force - just as soon as
> > someone can construct a credible account of who was actually responsible.
> > Shock, rage and grief there has been aplenty. But any glimmer of recognition
> > of why people might have been driven to carry out such atrocities,
> > sacrificing their own lives in the process - or why the United States is
> > hated with such bitterness, not only in Arab and Muslim countries, but across
> > the developing world - seems almost entirely absent. Perhaps it is too much
> > to hope that, as rescue workers struggle to pull firefighters from the
> > rubble, any but a small minority might make the connection between what has
> > been visited upon them and what their government has visited upon large parts
> > of the world.
> >
> > But make that connection they must, if such tragedies are not to be repeated,
> > potentially with even more devastating consequences. US political leaders are
> > doing their people no favours by reinforcing popular ignorance with
> > self-referential rhetoric. And the echoing chorus of Tony Blair, whose
> > determination to bind Britain ever closer to US foreign policy ratchets up
> > the threat to our own cities, will only fuel anti-western sentiment. So will
> > calls for the defence of "civilisation", with its overtones of Samuel
> > Huntington's poisonous theories of post-cold war confrontation between the
> > west and Islam, heightening perceptions of racism and hypocrisy.
> >
> > As Mahatma Gandhi famously remarked when asked his opinion of western
> > civilisation, it would be a good idea. Since George Bush's father inaugurated
> > his new world order a decade ago, the US, supported by its British ally,
> > bestrides the world like a colossus. Unconstrained by any superpower rival or
> > system of global governance, the US giant has rewritten the global financial
> > and trading system in its own interest; ripped up a string of treaties it
> > finds inconvenient; sent troops to every corner of the globe; bombed
> > Afghanistan, Sudan, Yugoslavia and Iraq without troubling the United Nations;
> > maintained a string of murderous embargos against recalcitrant regimes; and
> > recklessly thrown its weight behind Israel's 34-year illegal military
> > occupation of the West Bank and Gaza as the Palestinian intifada rages.
> >
> > If, as yesterday's Wall Street Journal insisted, the east coast carnage was
> > the fruit of the Clinton administration's Munich-like appeasement of the
> > Palestinians, the mind boggles as to what US Republicans imagine to be a
> > Churchillian response.
> >
> > It is this record of unabashed national egotism and arrogance that drives
> > anti-Americanism among swaths of the world's population, for whom there is
> > little democracy in the current distribution of global wealth and power. If
> > it turns out that Tuesday's attacks were the work of Osama bin Laden's
> > supporters, the sense that the Americans are once again reaping a dragons'
> > teeth harvest they themselves sowed will be overwhelming.
> >
> > It was the Americans, after all, who poured resources into the 1980s war
> > against the Soviet-backed regime in Kabul, at a time when girls could go to
> > school and women to work. Bin Laden and his mojahedin were armed and trained
> > by the CIA and MI6, as Afghanistan was turned into a wasteland and its
> > communist leader Najibullah left hanging from a Kabul lamp post with his
> > genitals stuffed in his mouth.
> >
> > But by then Bin Laden had turned against his American sponsors, while
> > US-sponsored Pakistani intelligence had spawned the grotesque Taliban now
> > protecting him. To punish its wayward Afghan offspring, the US subsequently
> > forced through a sanctions regime which has helped push 4m to the brink of
> > starvation, according to the latest UN figures, while Afghan refugees fan out
> > across the world.
> >
> > All this must doubtless seem remote to Americans desperately searching the
> > debris of what is expected to be the largest-ever massacre on US soil - as
> > must the killings of yet more Palestinians in the West Bank yesterday, or
> > even the 2m estimated to have died in Congo's wars since the overthrow of the
> > US-backed Mobutu regime. "What could some political thing have to do with
> > blowing up office buildings during working hours?" one bewildered New Yorker
> > asked yesterday.
> >
> > Already, the Bush administration is assembling an international coalition for
> > an Israeli-style war against terrorism, as if such counter-productive acts of
> > outrage had an existence separate from the social conditions out of which
> > they arise. But for every "terror network" that is rooted out, another will
> > emerge - until the injustices and inequalities that produce them are
> > addressed.
> >
> > Carpe Diem
> > Academy for the Study of the Psychoanalytic Arts
> > www.AcademyAnalyticArts.org




From grahamd  Mon Sep 17 20:59:25 2001
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:59:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Online poetry library
Message-ID: <200109180056.f8I0uh323391@mx13.mx.voyager.net>

I once made some remarks on a teachers' listserv about one of Eudora Welty's
stories, and apparently I'm easy to find with a search engine.  Years later
I'm still getting regular email queries from high school students who want
me to write their book reports for them.  I understand Joe Duemer's
frustration.

Personally I hold cards from let's see, six different libraries in two
states.  So even though I live in the middle of a cowfield in rural
Wisconsin, there aren't many materials I can't get ahold of, if I want them
badly enough.  It may have to wait for my semi-annual trip to Madison, the
closest big research library, but if I want something badly enough. . . .

Joe's right, of course:  there are a *lot* of materials not available on the
internet.  

Anyway, with some trepidation I hereby invite everyone to visit the
following web page that gathers materials on poetry from all over the net:

http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/grahamd/poetrylib.html

This is primarily intended for my students' use, but it strikes me that it
might be of more general interest.  It's a deliberately stripped-down,
low-graphic clearinghouse site, offering links to poets' home pages,
critical and biographical resources, full text poetry collections, online
journals, presses, essays about poetry, etc.  I thought it might be useful
to have things like Gioia's "Can Poetry Matter," Bloom's diatribe against
multiculturalism, and Epstein's "Who Killed Poetry?" readily reachable from
one spot--not to mention some nice pieces by Sam Gwynn and others familar in
these parts.  As it happens, there is a decent amount of good material
available online.

This project is very much in its early stages of development, and I
certainly would be happy to receive suggestions for additions.  In
particular, I've got relatively few poets' home pages listed as yet, so send
me your URLs if you wish.  


David Graham
_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________




From msnider  Mon Sep 17 21:00:45 2001
From: msnider (Michael Snider)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:00:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] They can't see why
In-Reply-To: <008201c13fd0$6145db00$18724342@twcny.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200109180104.VAA31627@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

On Monday, September 17, 2001, at 07:27 PM, Joseph Duemer wrote:

> Michael,
> with all due respect, where exactly does Nordinger make the distinction
> between good Arabs & bad ones? And even if he does, doesn't this 
> distinction
> ring a bell? You know, American history? You know, slavery?

Not "good Arabs and bad Arabs" -- though you bring to mind a member of 
the Black Panthers who once told my church youth group (the Episcopalian 
Church was funding them) that his love for white people was so great 
that he was willing to kill them all to prevent them from bearing the 
guilt of genocide perpetrated on black people. It was the same speech, 
and just as much a lie.

And surely you don't believe slavery was a peculiarly US institution.

> I've spent a good deal of time living in the "developing world" & until
> Americans can imagine what it is like to be the other, I suggest we 
> think
> very carefully about going in with guns blazing.
> In Vietnam, where I have spent about 20% of my time over the last five
> years, individual Americans are welcomed, but the Vietnamese make an 
> easy
> distinction between Americans & American foreign policy, which they 
> resent
> like hell. I was living in Hanoi when the US was bombing Yugoslavia & 
> there
> was tremendous anger at the US throwing its weight around, even while 
> there
> was a recognition that the Yugoslav government--even though it was a 
> sister
> socialist republic--was oppressive & corrupt. Mostly, the Vietnamese saw
> American bombs falling on a small country. The Vietnamese have memories 
> that
> go back 3000 years: they still name streets after the Trung Sisters, who
> threw the Chinese out of their country 1500 years ago. You think the 
> jungles
> of the Central Highlands were a soldier's nightmare? Wait till we get 
> the
> pictures from the Kiber Pass.


On the blazing guns, I agree about the need for careful thought.  I 
don't think we should ever have been in Viet Nam -- on the other hand, 
much Islamic resentment of the West comes from the failure of the UN 
(led at the time by an Egyptian Copt) to respond in Bosnia to the same 
genocide on the part of Serbs and Croats that we belatedly  responded to 
in Kosovo.  There, if significant pressure (which wasn't tried) from 
Europe had failed, the guns should have blazed sooner.  And the Khyber 
Pass these days is no longer held by Afghans, who are tired of the whole 
thing, but  by thousands of militant Islamicists imported by the Taliban 
(and, yes, before the Taliban, by the US)

> Ordinary Muslims from Mecca to Fez feel aggrieved at the United States'
> unjust & unreflective & racist support for Israel & they do not like us.

  It is not racist to support one of the two democracies (Turkey is the 
other) in the region against military dictatorships supporting religious 
terrorists in order to distract their people from the inability of the 
government to supply basic services. We (the US) have not worked hard 
enough to restrain people like Sharon, and we should have more 
forcefully objected to settlement activity on the West Bank (we have 
objected).  The creation of the state of Israel may have been a mistake 
(not the US's).  But Israel does exist, and there is plenty of cause, if 
not justification, for its paranoid foreign policy.

> They might even be glad that we have had our imaginations activated by
> terror. Are all of them members of Al Qaeda? No. Mostly, like us, they 
> would
> like to live in a world more just than the one they live in now. Are 
> they
> bad Muslims or good ones?

More just? Is the sharia just? What religious law has ever been just?

> Poets might consider the power of imagination. Imagine the coming war.
> Imagine the loss of civil liberties at home. But, before you urge war,
> imagine what it  is  like to be the other. Finally, if you read this 
> post as
> a rationalization or excuse for terrorism, you haven't understood 
> anything.

I hope there will be no war -- that the council of clerics in 
Afghanistan will turn over bin Laden.  I am dismayed at the current mood 
of Congress in response to Ashcroft's requests for more police authority 
to search and to intercept communications.  I know there will be no end 
to terrorism while desperate poverty afflicts so many people. I wish 
Kissinger and Sharon were widely regarded as criminals. George Bush 
scares the hell out of me on many levels.

But a world unwilling to act as decisively as possible against people 
acknowledged to have planned the deliberate murder of thousands of other 
people scares me even more.  Osama bin Laden (regardless of whether he 
had an active role in this latest attack) must be brought to justice, 
and so must as many as possible of the wealthy planners and funders and 
protectors of terrorism.

Of course that will not be the end. Maybe even Dubya will be forced by 
these events to learn enough about the world to take a more positive 
role in it.

> Joe
> ======================
> Joseph Duemer
> School of Liberal Arts, 5750
> Clarkson University
> Potsdam NY 13699
> 315.268.3967
> ======================
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From msnider  Mon Sep 17 21:13:20 2001
From: msnider (Michael Snider)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:13:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] no more
Message-ID: <200109180117.VAA04044@maynard.mail.mindspring.net>

I will write no more about politics to this list. No doubt I've bored 
and or antagonized more than enough people and convinced no one.



From JBCM2  Mon Sep 17 21:29:51 2001
From: JBCM2 (JBCM2 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:29:51 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [psyche-arts] They can't see why they are hated
Message-ID: <134.1b8f706.28d7fd8f@aol.com>

This misses the point.  In fact, the US support of Israel is only a part of 
the problem, albeit intense.  But to put this on the Palestinians -- I think 
there might have been one or two Palestinians on the planes -- there were 
also Saudis, Egyptians, etc., is wrong.  There's just as much resentment at 
the US willingness to prop up unpopular governments, such as the Saudi Royal 
House -- and the US determination to control the access to oil.  The American 
presence in the Middle East increased dramatically during the Gulf War, and 
it hasn't subsided.  It's probably pointless to enumerate all of the US and 
US supported actions against Arabs.  I wonder how the US citizens would feel 
if the reverse was true and the Arabs, displaying the same willingness to 
impose their will by force of arms, controlled our economy and resources?  

joe brennan...

In a message dated 09/17/2001 7:37:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
bdeanrob at sgi.net writes:

<< 
 The Moslem extremists oppose Irael not primarily because they believe it has
 violated the rights of the Palestinians, but becasue Israel represents 
modernity.
 The Islamic "fundamentalists" are in revolt against the entire modern world:
 freedom, Democracy, secularism, science and technology, modern education, 
women's
 liberation, pop culture, modern music and art, liberal Christianity - the 
whole
 works. Therefore, anyone who believes they can be satisfied by the USA 
adopting a
 more "humane" policy towards the Palestinians is mistaken. Give the 
Palestinians
 their own state, and it would become a tawdry third-world dictatorship just 
like
 all the other Arab states. The terrorist attacks against Israel and the USA 
would
 continue unabated. The Moslem extremists do not want "justice," they want to
 destroy us and everything we represent.
 
  >>



From JBCM2  Mon Sep 17 21:36:50 2001
From: JBCM2 (JBCM2 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:36:50 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [psyche-arts] They can't see why they are hated
Message-ID: <13c.196bcb9.28d7ff32@aol.com>

There's no fallacy in my argument -- of course, my argument is not faithfully 
reported here.  The issue is political and economic hegemony.  It's resented 
and opposed.  The US is the super state and it throws it weight -- frequently 
in ordinance -- around wherever it pleases and then acts like an innocent 
virgin when some of it comes back to it.  The phrase "Basra Highway" probably 
doesn't mean much to you, but you can bet your ass it does to the Arabs, even 
the non "extreme" ones.

joe brennan

In a message dated 09/17/2001 7:42:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
bdeanrob at sgi.net writes:

<< There is a glaring fallacy in these arguments. One can either argue the
 humanitarian aspects of this violence, or the political.
 
 Under the political lens, the argument would go like this, "The US has stood 
and
 currently stands athwart the express aims of certain Islamic sects. 
Therefore,
 these sects are fully justified in wreaking whatever degree of warlike
 retribution against the US they deem prudent, and in so doing, they are 
justified
 in striving to effect their ends. This is so, even if they were to kidmap
 children and use them as a means of attack against other innocent people."
 
 The corallary to this is, "The Islamic sects have now and continue to 
interpose
 themselves athwart the express aims of the legitimate governments in the Mid
 East, and they have selected a wave of terrorism as the means to achieve 
their
 political ends. In taking any and every step to thwart their aims, even to 
the
 extent of using nuclear weapons to erradicate these individuals. This is
 justified, even if it means that some innocents night be killed in the 
process."
 
 The humanitarian argument would go: "There are ways to sit down and resolve
 differences among people who have grievances. These must be the mechanisms 
used
 to resolve disagreements like these. There can be no justification for the
 killing of innocent people."
 
 The problem is that the radical left argues the political , as a means of
 justifying or rationalizing the attack, while arguing the humanitarian as a 
means
 to render impotent any potential response.
 
 It is a fallacious argument.
 
 If the political justification is sufficient unto itself to mitigate or even
 justify the attack, then it is sufficient unto itselto justify virtually any
 response the US might effect.
 
 If the humanitarian argument is to be employed, it must be employed both 
ways.
  >>



From adead_poet  Mon Sep 17 21:45:33 2001
From: adead_poet (dead poet)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:45:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] more essays needed
Message-ID: <F114cF1s5IOiV3XpfbF000181fd@hotmail.com>

i intend on buying the books, but at the moment buying four or five books is 
not feasible. believe me, i spend a lot of money every year buying books, 
just in a tight spot right now. believe me, i don't have to 'suck it up' to 
buy books. i love books. and i have a fairly impressive library. but i don't 
want to wait to read these articles. if i have to i will, if not then i'll 
get to read them now. either way, jarrell's and schwartz's essay collections 
are on my to buy list. just not at the very top, there are a few poetry 
collections i need to get first. i do understand copyright laws to a degree. 
but there are essays on the internet. i just don't know if these essays are 
or aren't. i looked didn't find them. doesn't mean anything because someone 
pointed me to the page where i found the epstein essay i was looking for. 
the university does not have limited borrowing privleges if you are not 
student, staff, or faculty. if i can't find these articles elsewhere, then 
i'll go and see if they are at the libarary and make copies. but if i can 
find them here, why go there.

maybe it shows my age, but i don't know what suitable bridge club behavior 
is. but i doubt that the list will enforce it. your sarcastic response was 
just rude. here is someone asking for information, and instead of being 
helpful (or not saying anything if you have nothing to contribute) you pop 
off with something rude. what is it? you don't think there is enough 
fighting going on between listmembers? do you want more? there just was no 
point to your rudeness.

and i apologize to the other listmembers for this off-topic conversation. it 
is now over on my part.


jason



>
>I hope that this list isn't going to enforce behaviors suitable for a 
>bridge
>club. I think it's swell that you want to learn more about poetry. One 
>thing
>you might want to know is that much of what  you want is not on the
>internet, or shouldn't be, because it is protected by copyright. Suck it up
>& buy the books & if you can't afford them, I would not be surprised if the
>college library in your town as limited borrowing privileges for 
>independent
>scholars.
>
>Joe
>
>======================
>Joseph Duemer
>School of Liberal Arts, 5750
>Clarkson University
>Potsdam NY 13699
>315.268.3967
>======================
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


_________________________________________________________________
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From JBCM2  Mon Sep 17 21:47:26 2001
From: JBCM2 (JBCM2 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:47:26 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] They can't see why
Message-ID: <3b.1a5d62b8.28d801ae@aol.com>

In a message dated 09/17/2001 9:15:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
msnider at mindspring.com writes:

<< 
 But a world unwilling to act as decisively as possible against people 
 acknowledged to have planned the deliberate murder of thousands of other 
 people scares me even more.  Osama bin Laden (regardless of whether he 
 had an active role in this latest attack) must be brought to justice, 
 and so must as many as possible of the wealthy planners and funders and 
 protectors of terrorism.
  >>

It's too bad you don't have this same fit of morality when it's the murderers 
from the US doing the killing.  You say, for example, that we should have 
never been involved in Vietnam, and I agree -- it was a criminal act, and the 
total number of deaths has been put at more than 5,000,000!  Yet nobody went 
to jail for that, except for that hapless little killer, James Calley, and he 
got an early release for good behavior!  Oh well, he only presided over the 
extemination of a few hundred.  The piety is enough to choke, well, an oil 
well.

joe brennan



From Rsgwynn1  Mon Sep 17 21:57:13 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:57:13 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Online poetry library
Message-ID: <c4.1ad890ee.28d803f9@cs.com>

Thanks for putting this useful site on the web, David.  It's much more 
helpful than ragging someone who doesn't have a university i.d.
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From wasanthony  Mon Sep 17 21:58:52 2001
From: wasanthony (jcervantes)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:58:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: [Fwd: Please forward and send.]
Message-ID: <20010918015852.44837.qmail@web12108.mail.yahoo.com>

I received this via the ILEF (International Literary Editors
Fellowship) mailing list and have sent my signed copy to the White
House - you have to clean it up a bit, of course.

For the last 48 hours I have found myself beginning to tire of rhetoric
good and bad, and have been wondering what I could do besides talk and
write e-mails about this moment of precarious balance.  I don't know
who composed the message, though I assume it was Daniela Gioseffi, but
it hits the right tone and expresses a desire we have in common.  Pleas
like this *must* inundate the White House and other governments.  Maybe
someone on this list who is eloquent with prose could compose a letter
suited for other world leaders?

- Jim

> 
> Daniela Gioseffi wrote:
> > 
> > E-mail: president at whitehouse.gov
> > The Oval Office, The White House
> > 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Wash. D.C. 20005
> > Dear President Bush:
> > 
> > In this time of unparalleled tribulation, I know you are doing all
> you can to console the survivors, provide generous assistance to the
> victims, and pursue the criminals who killed thousands of innocent
> people. You have asked for, and Congress has provided you with,
> essentially unlimited power to use our military might to respond.
> This is an awesome responsibility, and one rarely provided to
> presidents except in time of actual war between countries.
> > 
> > Our military has not protected us from this heinous terrorist
> attack and our sale of arms to emerging terrorist groups has hurt
> us--just as the 8 billion dollar military aid package given by your
> father's administration to Sadam Hussein back fired on our own
> people. Our 350 billion dollar military budget and our 24 billion
> dollar a year CIA budget did not protect us from this attack. There
> has to be a better way than war to conquer terrorism and bring
> terrorists to justice. Cooperative intelligence investigations
> throughout aligned nations is a good tactic and we are glad to see
> you using such cooperative efforts. Alliances with peaceful Islamic
> states is important. War begets war and hate begets hate. Revenge
> begets revenge and this is the 21st century.We must use more
> cooperation and more diplomacy to save the earth for all her peoples.
> The Afghan people, miserably oppressed by the Taliban, are suffering
> and living in the stone age already due to arms sales by the USA and
> USSR. If
> > we can liberate them from the Taliban without killing them and
> causing them more suffering, that would be a humanitarian deed. There
> is nothing to be gained by bombing armless orphans and starving
> widows living amidst the ruins of war already. We must find a better
> way. We see more than ever that "Star Wars" cannot work to protect us
> from terrorists acts of war. There is a better way to conquer
> terrorism of this kind than war and domination of outer space with
> nuclear weapons.We are pleased to see how your cooperative
> intelligence shared with other nations is working well so far. I love
> our country and want her to prevail through peaceful means to truly
> make a "kinder gentler nation"--working in the hope of a democratic
> world of nations.
> > 
> > I urge you to act with sober restraint, choosing justice over rapid
> vengeance, and setting a high standard of moral certainty before
> engaging in any military response. Our track record of military
> responses all too often leads to the deaths of innocent victims
> elsewhere, and the spiral of death continues. Terrorism begets
> terrorism and bombing civilians is terrorism. We must behave with
> measured and careful deliberation, forging alliances with Islamic
> countries to root out terrorism and terrorist organizations. Bless
> your hunt for the terrorists. May it proceed well and successfully
> without the bloodshed of the innocent.
> > 
> > Sincerely and patriotically yours,




=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
"Ripples" @ <http://www.poetserv.net>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/



From adead_poet  Mon Sep 17 22:03:35 2001
From: adead_poet (dead poet)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:03:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] more essays needed
Message-ID: <F39kg3AmsfGdMNFmWAF000002de@hotmail.com>

i did attend the school, just owe them some money right now, that's why i'm 
not currently a student. spent enough time in that library that i've learned 
all the ins and outs. i was just looking to see if the articles were 
anywhere on the internet before i went there.

jason

>From: "Prentiss, Amber" <aprentiss at agnesscott.edu>
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>To: "'new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu'" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] more essays needed
>Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 20:11:31 -0400
>
>I don't know of any lbiraries with independent scholar borrowing
>priveleges(the dependent scholars are bad enough about returning things),
>but a better way is to figure out which journals the essays were first
>published in. Go to that library (around a time that would not correspond
>with midterms or finals), sign in as a guest, and ask a friendly reference
>librarian (who likely wouldn't know if you went there or not)how you might
>find The Dusty Journals of Criticism you are looking for and see if they
>carry the correct years. Bring a lot of change and make copies. They might
>also have these things on microfilm. Plus, as you find the articles, you 
>can
>see if you think they are even worth copying and save some change.
>
>-A
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Joseph Duemer
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Sent: 9/17/01 7:44 PM
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] more essays needed
>
><<thank you moira. like you i don't see the point in attacking someone
>who
>is looking for information. that kind of attitude can make people not
>even
>want to bother to learn more about poetry.>>
>
>I hope that this list isn't going to enforce behaviors suitable for a
>bridge
>club. I think it's swell that you want to learn more about poetry. One
>thing
>you might want to know is that much of what  you want is not on the
>internet, or shouldn't be, because it is protected by copyright. Suck it
>up
>& buy the books & if you can't afford them, I would not be surprised if
>the
>college library in your town as limited borrowing privileges for
>independent
>scholars.
>
>Joe
>
>======================
>Joseph Duemer
>School of Liberal Arts, 5750
>Clarkson University
>Potsdam NY 13699
>315.268.3967
>======================
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From adead_poet  Mon Sep 17 22:11:16 2001
From: adead_poet (dead poet)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:11:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Online poetry library
Message-ID: <F7t7S6rp7mEOj4RQ8tS00000555@hotmail.com>

thank you david. this is the kind of thing that is very helpful (and thank 
you to all those who didn't waste our time with rude comments that served no 
purpose).

i can understand how irritating it is to receive emails from h.s. students 
asking you to write essays. i get them from people who got my email address 
from amazon.com. i think everyone gets them. but i never asked anyone to 
write an essay, paper, anything for me. i asked someone to point me towarde 
a resource, and only after i spent time searching myself. even though there 
is only one library system in this area, i can get ahold of just about 
anything. i became somthing of an expert with interlibrary loan. but why 
wait if i can find it sooner?

jason

>I once made some remarks on a teachers' listserv about one of Eudora 
>Welty's
>stories, and apparently I'm easy to find with a search engine.  Years later
>I'm still getting regular email queries from high school students who want
>me to write their book reports for them.  I understand Joe Duemer's
>frustration.
>
>Personally I hold cards from let's see, six different libraries in two
>states.  So even though I live in the middle of a cowfield in rural
>Wisconsin, there aren't many materials I can't get ahold of, if I want them
>badly enough.  It may have to wait for my semi-annual trip to Madison, the
>closest big research library, but if I want something badly enough. . . .
>
>Joe's right, of course:  there are a *lot* of materials not available on 
>the
>internet.
>
>Anyway, with some trepidation I hereby invite everyone to visit the
>following web page that gathers materials on poetry from all over the net:
>
>http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/grahamd/poetrylib.html
>
>This is primarily intended for my students' use, but it strikes me that it
>might be of more general interest.  It's a deliberately stripped-down,
>low-graphic clearinghouse site, offering links to poets' home pages,
>critical and biographical resources, full text poetry collections, online
>journals, presses, essays about poetry, etc.  I thought it might be useful
>to have things like Gioia's "Can Poetry Matter," Bloom's diatribe against
>multiculturalism, and Epstein's "Who Killed Poetry?" readily reachable from
>one spot--not to mention some nice pieces by Sam Gwynn and others familar 
>in
>these parts.  As it happens, there is a decent amount of good material
>available online.
>
>This project is very much in its early stages of development, and I
>certainly would be happy to receive suggestions for additions.  In
>particular, I've got relatively few poets' home pages listed as yet, so 
>send
>me your URLs if you wish.
>
>
>David Graham
>_______________________
>David Graham
>grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
>_______________________
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From JackKerouac25  Mon Sep 17 22:19:07 2001
From: JackKerouac25 (JackKerouac25 at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:19:07 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dana Skywalker and the Western Star Wars
Message-ID: <3a.1ae94cb9.28d8091b@aol.com>

Howdy all,

A cross-posting from the Robinson Jeffers list:

<<Dana's done it again.  He has the Bay Area stirred up over whether or not
it's still a literary region.  The controversy is reviewed in Jack Foley's
book reviewed below.  Those in the LA area keep an eye on the Times as it
plans a piece in the affair.  Enjoy.  Hughey

THE METEOR HAS LANDED

Richard Kohlman Hughey

Book Review

The "Fallen Western Star" Wars, Jack Foley, ed.  Oakland CA: Scarlet Tanager
Books, 200 l; 87 pages; paperbound; $14.00

Dana Gioia is a youthful looking middle-aged poet who despite his cherubic
countenance stirs up controversy everywhere he goes.  That should not come as
a surprise to anyone who knows Gioia's background.  He finished high school
as the class valedictorian and editor of the school paper but was thrice
expelled for misbehaving.  Gioia's essay "Can Poetry Matter?" for the
Atlantic Monthly a decade ago produced the most extraordinary response in the
magazine's history, which surprised me, as I didn't think poetry mattered to
that many people any more.

Gioia's thesis was that poetry once written for popular consumption has been
co-opted by the Academy, and that poets have sold their souls to university
administrations for junior professorships with limited potential for tenure
teaching creative writing, deemed vocational training by the tenured faculty
of the English department.

Gioia also pointed out that literary criticism had devolved into a back
scratching contest.  In Ambrose Bierce's day a critic was hard to please
because nobody tried to please him, or "her" in the case of you know who.

We'll probably never seen another David Lezensky, the poor man who hung
himself when Ambrose Bierce accused him of plagiarizing Mrs. Plunkett's "Ode
to a Dead Cow."  Perhaps that's just as well.

Bierce was extraordinarily prescient when he predicted with amazing precision
what literary criticism would become in the twentieth century.  He saw the
critic "at work upon a book, and so read out of it / The qualities that he
had first read in to it."

For fifty years I've complained that literary criticism was simply an
exercise of the critic, usually a junior professor of sophomore English
literature, engrafting onto a work of art something the artist had no
intention of creating.  Literary criticism today is like painting whiskers on
the Mona Lisa.

The genius of Gioia's piece was to articulate so beautifully the thoughts
that all of us - well, most of us - were thinking but couldn't find the words
to express.  And to do it with elevated language -- unlike mine -- worthy of
a master prose writer.

Gioia laid out a formula for the resuscitation of the art form, but we're
still waiting for the faculty committee appointed to implement the proposals
to meet much less act on them.

Now that Gioia has relocated to a hilltop aerie in Sonoma County, in
California, he has loosed his fateful lightning with another thunderbolt that
has the luddites stirred to action once again.  The status quo seems to be a
matter of national policy.

    Gioia disingenuously maintains that he is only posing questions to
stimulate his readers' intellectual curiosity.  Yet, every trial lawyer - I
used be one  - can tell you that the best way to ask a question in court is
to include the answer within the interrogatory.  That frequently leaves the
witness satisfied with his answer, while unknowingly having not only dug his
own grave but also pulled the sod into it.

This time Gioia questioned whether the San Francisco Bay Area is any longer a
literary region.  "No" he said, "it's not."  Then he proceeded for another
8997 words to explain why it's not.

The reaction to the essay reminded me of the time Anton Roman, publisher of
the venerable Overland Monthly, asked Bret Harte to edit an anthology of
California poetry.  In characteristic fashion, Harte sampled the candidates
very selectively and chose only forty-one poems for inclusion in the
anthology.  Only nineteen contributors were represented.

    The reaction of the merchants and miners in the mining camps, who had
been sending their ditties to the San Francisco newspapers and seeing them
published without comment in the yellow journals, were furious at being
excluded from Harte's anthology.  They descended on the city and gathered as
an unruly mob around Roman's mansion with pitchforks and torches demanding
his neck for stretching.

The lynch mob this time is led by Howard Junker, the editor of a literary
magazine with an unpronounceable name who to prove the positive set forth a
list of names of alleged San Francisco writers and poets who, except for
Michael Cardinal McClure and Kevin "not Kenneth" Starr, and one or two others
I, for one, never heard of.
The shot was a blank, in any event.  Junker missed Gioia's point entirely.
It isn't that the artists aren't there; it's that they don't interact with
each other on a regular and ongoing basis, which is how a literary region
operates.

Other responses were more temperate and principled, and the scales seemed
weighted equally on both sides, although I had the nagging suspicion that
Gioia's attackers really didn't have a good idea of what the Bay Area was
like when it was a real literary region.  And certainly there was no evidence
they were aware of the bohemian fantasyland that existed in the Bay Area
during George Strerling's time.

The historical perspective so essential to Gioia's thesis seemed lacking in
their assaults.  I don't think the words Golden Era, Hutching's California
Magazine, The Argonaut, The Overland Monthly, The Lark, The Blue Mule, or the
Purple Cow meant anything to these folks; and if I mentioned people like
Prentice Mulford, John "Yellow Bird" Ridge, Eliot Gould Buffum, Bayard
Taylor, Alonzo "Old Block" Delano, George Horatio Derby, J. Ross Browne,
George Henry, Josiah Royce, Ina Coolbrith, Gertrude Atherton, Mary Austin,
Jimmy Hopper, Gelett Burgess, Harry Leon Wilson, Charles Warren Stoddard, and
a host of others I don't know if there'd be much name recognition on their
part.
But I shouldn't complain. After all, I was just as dumbfounded when Richard
Silberg read out the roster of the Berkeley regiment of the Avant Guard in
his in his excessively long reply to Gioia's thesis.

Please don't get me started on avant gardism.

The point is, you can't talk about San Francisco as a literary region today
without knowing what is was like yesterday.

Richard Silberg, associate editor of Poetry Flash, issued a papal bull
spelling out in excruciating detail his objections to Gioia's dialectic.
Silberg's rejoinder was in turn answered by Jack Foley and Silberg then
rejoined Foley's rejoinder, and the two critics somehow got lost in an
argument over the merits of Ed Markham's "The Man with a Hoe," not to be
confused with Chris Rock's "Young Man with a Ho."

I know Richard.  I took his poetry workshop at Cal Berkeley in the early
eighties.  I turned in a sheaf of poems I had assiduously written for the
workshop at the first meeting.  I got them back a few weeks later.  There
wasn't a mark on them except for a note scrawled at the top of the first
page:  "I've never written in forms, so I can't help you with these.  Sorry!"


I about fell off the chair.  "What?" I cried, "how can a free verse poet not
interpret something as accessible as 'Casey at the Bat'?"  There was no joy
in Berkeley that night, I can tell you.

I soon gave up writing poetry again as I had in the sixties.  I got tired of
feeling like a well-fed Christian in an arena full of lions.

I should have known better, for on the first evening, Richard announced The
Paramount Principle of Modern Poetry:  "Whatever works, works!"  Right!  And
any poet can be a pro playing tennis without a net.

I'll let readers of the book decide for themselves the merit or lack thereof,
as we old trial lawyers like to say, of Silberg's arguments.  I only want to
point out that he seems to think a literary region lives on poetry alone.
I'll give him everything he says about poetry and still challenge him to
prove that the San Francisco Bay Area is a literary region.  And I would tell
him that schmoozing at a poetry reading is not a particularly interactive
activity.  I have in mind crashing in the same pad and sharing girlfriends.

Jack Foley has just edited and published a collection of the responses to
Gioia's Western Star piece brought out by Scarlet Tanager Books this year
called, perhaps a little grandly, The "Fallen Western Star" Wars.  The book
puts the dispute into a clear perspective, making very interesting reading;
but the book would be worth the price of admission if it only included the
text of Gioia's essay, which is placed in the leadoff position.  Those who do
not have ready access to such literary zeitungs as the Ruminator Review can
read Gioia's articulate piece in Jack's anthology.

The book also contains Gioia's short piece for the San Francisco Magazine
(January 2000) that spelled out for those who hadn't read the writing on the
stalls that the decline of San Francisco as a literary region was a matter of
over population and real estate values.
What we're talking about is traditional bohemianism.  George Sterling defined
bohemianism as devotion to one of the seven arts - and poverty.  Sterling
should have known that his definition was incomplete.  Bohemianism needs two
other elements: the first is conviviality, from which the second follows,
namely, a sense of place.  I know because I was there.

I was there in fifties when the beatniks were rousted out of North Beach by a
sudden influx of tits and ass.  I was there in the sixties when the Zebra
killer and his associates invaded the Haight Asbury and slimed the
neighborhood relentlessly. When the bastards were through, they went across
the bay and slimed Telegraph Avenue.

I was also there in the eighties when what was left of the bohemian culture
was little more than gay coterie hold up in the Mission District amongst a
population of mostly hostile Hispanics.

I left the city in 1992 and the only thing I've heard since then is that real
estate values in the Mission have driven all the poor folk completely out of
the city, which, by Sterling's definition, means the writers and poets too.

Caf? Trieste still serves coffee to residents and visitors alike, and you can
still get a drink as Vesuvios or buy a book at City Lights.  But you won't
find a Weldon Kees sitting at the bar in Vesuvios arguing with a Jack Kerouac
over who was the reigning jazz star, the local Turk Murphy or Jelly Roll
Morton from "back east."  The El Matador is gone and so is Cal Tjader, and
you can't hear the Jefferson Airplane playing at Basin Street West or listen
to Pearl at the Matrix.  And you won't find Don Carpenter and Richard
Braugtigan sitting at a table in a sidewalk caf? on Broadway making fun of
the local burghers.
Those who weren't even born then will never know what a real literary region
was like.

If you go looking for the I and Thou Coffeehouse on Haight Street, you'll
find a pizza parlor; and if you want to take in an Akira Kurosawa flic at the
old Wave Theater at the end of Irving Street, you'll find there a Chinese
Restaurant.

If you check out Caf? Picaro in the Mission District on 16th Street, you
might see some bohemian looking fellows at the tables but you won't see any
of them reaching for the books on the shelves.

This is what I mean about a sense of place.  Every bohemian culture has to
have its Co-Existence Bagel Shop or its Original Coppa's Restaurant.  And a
literary region is not a literary region without a bohemian culture.  I don't
care how many of Madison Avenue's precious darlings live in the Bay Area,
Bohemia is dead.

_______________________________________________
rjeffers mailing list
rjeffers at maillist.isu.edu
http://maillist.isu.edu/mailman/listinfo/rjeffers>>



Jeffrey L. Newberry
Adjunct Instructor
Department of English and Foreign Languages
University of West Florida
11000 University Parkway
Pensacola, FL  32514
850.474.2923
850.473.7330



From bardo  Mon Sep 17 22:31:46 2001
From: bardo (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:31:46 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] more essays needed
References: <F160A5lG82oKrTPh05x00017a0b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <008701c13fea$10245c00$ef7dbd18@win98>

Jason,

If you can afford to, you might want to register for
a course--even a one-credit course--at a college,
community college or university (an online course,
perhaps)--just enough to get you a student ID number
so you can access full text databases through the
institution's library. You can probably get remote
access that way to resources that would cost you
tens of thousands of dollars if you subscribed to
them as an individual--and you can get free
interlibrary loan (try your public library for that,
too, but it may charge you). Of course, if you've
already registered at a school, speak with your
research librarian about such access. In fact, even
if you haven't registered, you might find a way to
use such search facilities on campus.

Best,

Dan

----- Original Message -----
From: dead poet <adead_poet at hotmail.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] more essays needed


> thank you moira. like you i don't see the point in
attacking someone who is
> looking for information. that kind of attitude can
make people not even want
> to bother to learn more about poetry.
>
> i did try google. no luck. i found reviews of the
books that have these
> essays in them. and one day i'll probably buy
those collections, but for
> now, i just want to read the articles. i also
tried yahoo. what other search
> engines would you suggest i use. i really only
know about google and yahoo,
> so if anyone knows of others that are good, please
let me know which ones. i
> only learned of google a few months ago when i
posted asking if anyone knew
> of web sites that held biographical information on
some lesser known poets.
> i can't remember who it was that pointed out
google to me, but i've found it
> to be very helpful.
>
> jason
>
>
> >From: "Moira Russell" <moira_russell at hotmail.com>
> >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] more essays needed
> >Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:48:45 -0800
> >
> >
> >>Dear Dead Poet,
> >>you ever try the library? That's the big
building where they keep the
> >>books?
> >
> >OK, claws IN.  I suggest Google.com or some of
the other highly effective
> >search engines.
> >
> >Moira Russell
> >Seattle, WA
> >
>
>___________________________________________________
______________
> >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
____________________________________________________
_____________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From alphavil  Mon Sep 17 22:48:08 2001
From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:48:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] They can't see why
References: <3b.1a5d62b8.28d801ae@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3BA6B5E7.19D8F7E2@ix.netcom.com>

William Calley. And pardone; A pardon. Though its hard enough keeping the big
name murderers straight, the fuckin' rosters so damn long. CP.

JBCM2 at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 09/17/2001 9:15:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> msnider at mindspring.com writes:
>
> <<
>  But a world unwilling to act as decisively as possible against people
>  acknowledged to have planned the deliberate murder of thousands of other
>  people scares me even more.  Osama bin Laden (regardless of whether he
>  had an active role in this latest attack) must be brought to justice,
>  and so must as many as possible of the wealthy planners and funders and
>  protectors of terrorism.
>   >>
>
> It's too bad you don't have this same fit of morality when it's the murderers
> from the US doing the killing.  You say, for example, that we should have
> never been involved in Vietnam, and I agree -- it was a criminal act, and the
> total number of deaths has been put at more than 5,000,000!  Yet nobody went
> to jail for that, except for that hapless little killer, James Calley, and he
> got an early release for good behavior!  Oh well, he only presided over the
> extemination of a few hundred.  The piety is enough to choke, well, an oil
> well.
>
> joe brennan
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From adead_poet  Mon Sep 17 23:21:19 2001
From: adead_poet (dead poet)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:21:19 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] more essays needed
Message-ID: <F220Q6BdyjvCHWiEjbM00016d2d@hotmail.com>

the reason i'm not in school is because i had to pay for the last semester i 
attended, and i haven't had the money to take care of all of it. as soon as 
it is paid off, i'll be back in school full-time. only three semesters and i 
can graduate. i use the interlibrary loan at the public library. out library 
just doesn't have a big enough budget to purchase many books. like i've 
said, i just don't like to wait. i can find a lot of the stuff on the 
internet or borrow from someone here. if i can't find it, i ask in case 
someone knows where it is. now i can use the univesity library, i just can't 
check out books. so if i can't find the essays elsewhere, i'll make copies 
of what they have, at least until i'm back on my feet financially and can 
start buying my books again.

jason

jason

>
>Jason,
>
>If you can afford to, you might want to register for
>a course--even a one-credit course--at a college,
>community college or university (an online course,
>perhaps)--just enough to get you a student ID number
>so you can access full text databases through the
>institution's library. You can probably get remote
>access that way to resources that would cost you
>tens of thousands of dollars if you subscribed to
>them as an individual--and you can get free
>interlibrary loan (try your public library for that,
>too, but it may charge you). Of course, if you've
>already registered at a school, speak with your
>research librarian about such access. In fact, even
>if you haven't registered, you might find a way to
>use such search facilities on campus.
>
>Best,
>
>Dan
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: dead poet <adead_poet at hotmail.com>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Sent: Monday, September 17, 2001 6:59 PM
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] more essays needed
>
>
> > thank you moira. like you i don't see the point in
>attacking someone who is
> > looking for information. that kind of attitude can
>make people not even want
> > to bother to learn more about poetry.
> >
> > i did try google. no luck. i found reviews of the
>books that have these
> > essays in them. and one day i'll probably buy
>those collections, but for
> > now, i just want to read the articles. i also
>tried yahoo. what other search
> > engines would you suggest i use. i really only
>know about google and yahoo,
> > so if anyone knows of others that are good, please
>let me know which ones. i
> > only learned of google a few months ago when i
>posted asking if anyone knew
> > of web sites that held biographical information on
>some lesser known poets.
> > i can't remember who it was that pointed out
>google to me, but i've found it
> > to be very helpful.
> >
> > jason
> >
> >
> > >From: "Moira Russell" <moira_russell at hotmail.com>
> > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] more essays needed
> > >Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:48:45 -0800
> > >
> > >
> > >>Dear Dead Poet,
> > >>you ever try the library? That's the big
>building where they keep the
> > >>books?
> > >
> > >OK, claws IN.  I suggest Google.com or some of
>the other highly effective
> > >search engines.
> > >
> > >Moira Russell
> > >Seattle, WA
> > >
> >
> >___________________________________________________
>______________
> > >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
>http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> > >
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >New-Poetry mailing list
> > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
> >
>____________________________________________________
>_____________
> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
>http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From CobbCoStudioArts  Tue Sep 18 00:05:11 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:05:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Online poetry library
Message-ID: <20010918040511.F224A2757@sitemail.everyone.net>

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URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20010917/27da5bec/attachment.ksh>


From CobbCoStudioArts  Tue Sep 18 00:16:29 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:16:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [psyche-arts] They can't see why they are hated
Message-ID: <20010918041629.2D9C6275F@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From aprentiss  Tue Sep 18 02:10:54 2001
From: aprentiss (Prentiss, Amber)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 02:10:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dana Skywalker and the Western Star Wars
Message-ID: <E7C06C25D501D511BA9900508BB82AA90DE19B@ness.agnesscott.edu>

Are there any literary places? At least the Bay Area had something to lose. 

-Amber

-----Original Message-----
From: JackKerouac25 at aol.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: 9/17/2001 10:19 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dana Skywalker and the Western Star Wars

Howdy all,

A cross-posting from the Robinson Jeffers list:

<<Dana's done it again.  He has the Bay Area stirred up over whether or
not
it's still a literary region.  The controversy is reviewed in Jack
Foley's
book reviewed below.  Those in the LA area keep an eye on the Times as
it
plans a piece in the affair.  Enjoy.  Hughey

THE METEOR HAS LANDED

Richard Kohlman Hughey

Book Review

The "Fallen Western Star" Wars, Jack Foley, ed.  Oakland CA: Scarlet
Tanager
Books, 200 l; 87 pages; paperbound; $14.00

Dana Gioia is a youthful looking middle-aged poet who despite his
cherubic
countenance stirs up controversy everywhere he goes.  That should not
come as
a surprise to anyone who knows Gioia's background.  He finished high
school
as the class valedictorian and editor of the school paper but was thrice
expelled for misbehaving.  Gioia's essay "Can Poetry Matter?" for the
Atlantic Monthly a decade ago produced the most extraordinary response
in the
magazine's history, which surprised me, as I didn't think poetry
mattered to
that many people any more.

Gioia's thesis was that poetry once written for popular consumption has
been
co-opted by the Academy, and that poets have sold their souls to
university
administrations for junior professorships with limited potential for
tenure
teaching creative writing, deemed vocational training by the tenured
faculty
of the English department.

Gioia also pointed out that literary criticism had devolved into a back
scratching contest.  In Ambrose Bierce's day a critic was hard to please
because nobody tried to please him, or "her" in the case of you know
who.

We'll probably never seen another David Lezensky, the poor man who hung
himself when Ambrose Bierce accused him of plagiarizing Mrs. Plunkett's
"Ode
to a Dead Cow."  Perhaps that's just as well.

Bierce was extraordinarily prescient when he predicted with amazing
precision
what literary criticism would become in the twentieth century.  He saw
the
critic "at work upon a book, and so read out of it / The qualities that
he
had first read in to it."

For fifty years I've complained that literary criticism was simply an
exercise of the critic, usually a junior professor of sophomore English
literature, engrafting onto a work of art something the artist had no
intention of creating.  Literary criticism today is like painting
whiskers on
the Mona Lisa.

The genius of Gioia's piece was to articulate so beautifully the
thoughts
that all of us - well, most of us - were thinking but couldn't find the
words
to express.  And to do it with elevated language -- unlike mine --
worthy of
a master prose writer.

Gioia laid out a formula for the resuscitation of the art form, but
we're
still waiting for the faculty committee appointed to implement the
proposals
to meet much less act on them.

Now that Gioia has relocated to a hilltop aerie in Sonoma County, in
California, he has loosed his fateful lightning with another thunderbolt
that
has the luddites stirred to action once again.  The status quo seems to
be a
matter of national policy.

    Gioia disingenuously maintains that he is only posing questions to
stimulate his readers' intellectual curiosity.  Yet, every trial lawyer
- I
used be one  - can tell you that the best way to ask a question in court
is
to include the answer within the interrogatory.  That frequently leaves
the
witness satisfied with his answer, while unknowingly having not only dug
his
own grave but also pulled the sod into it.

This time Gioia questioned whether the San Francisco Bay Area is any
longer a
literary region.  "No" he said, "it's not."  Then he proceeded for
another
8997 words to explain why it's not.

The reaction to the essay reminded me of the time Anton Roman, publisher
of
the venerable Overland Monthly, asked Bret Harte to edit an anthology of
California poetry.  In characteristic fashion, Harte sampled the
candidates
very selectively and chose only forty-one poems for inclusion in the
anthology.  Only nineteen contributors were represented.

    The reaction of the merchants and miners in the mining camps, who
had
been sending their ditties to the San Francisco newspapers and seeing
them
published without comment in the yellow journals, were furious at being
excluded from Harte's anthology.  They descended on the city and
gathered as
an unruly mob around Roman's mansion with pitchforks and torches
demanding
his neck for stretching.

The lynch mob this time is led by Howard Junker, the editor of a
literary
magazine with an unpronounceable name who to prove the positive set
forth a
list of names of alleged San Francisco writers and poets who, except for
Michael Cardinal McClure and Kevin "not Kenneth" Starr, and one or two
others
I, for one, never heard of.
The shot was a blank, in any event.  Junker missed Gioia's point
entirely.
It isn't that the artists aren't there; it's that they don't interact
with
each other on a regular and ongoing basis, which is how a literary
region
operates.

Other responses were more temperate and principled, and the scales
seemed
weighted equally on both sides, although I had the nagging suspicion
that
Gioia's attackers really didn't have a good idea of what the Bay Area
was
like when it was a real literary region.  And certainly there was no
evidence
they were aware of the bohemian fantasyland that existed in the Bay Area
during George Strerling's time.

The historical perspective so essential to Gioia's thesis seemed lacking
in
their assaults.  I don't think the words Golden Era, Hutching's
California
Magazine, The Argonaut, The Overland Monthly, The Lark, The Blue Mule,
or the
Purple Cow meant anything to these folks; and if I mentioned people like
Prentice Mulford, John "Yellow Bird" Ridge, Eliot Gould Buffum, Bayard
Taylor, Alonzo "Old Block" Delano, George Horatio Derby, J. Ross Browne,
George Henry, Josiah Royce, Ina Coolbrith, Gertrude Atherton, Mary
Austin,
Jimmy Hopper, Gelett Burgess, Harry Leon Wilson, Charles Warren
Stoddard, and
a host of others I don't know if there'd be much name recognition on
their
part.
But I shouldn't complain. After all, I was just as dumbfounded when
Richard
Silberg read out the roster of the Berkeley regiment of the Avant Guard
in
his in his excessively long reply to Gioia's thesis.

Please don't get me started on avant gardism.

The point is, you can't talk about San Francisco as a literary region
today
without knowing what is was like yesterday.

Richard Silberg, associate editor of Poetry Flash, issued a papal bull
spelling out in excruciating detail his objections to Gioia's dialectic.
Silberg's rejoinder was in turn answered by Jack Foley and Silberg then
rejoined Foley's rejoinder, and the two critics somehow got lost in an
argument over the merits of Ed Markham's "The Man with a Hoe," not to be
confused with Chris Rock's "Young Man with a Ho."

I know Richard.  I took his poetry workshop at Cal Berkeley in the early
eighties.  I turned in a sheaf of poems I had assiduously written for
the
workshop at the first meeting.  I got them back a few weeks later.
There
wasn't a mark on them except for a note scrawled at the top of the first
page:  "I've never written in forms, so I can't help you with these.
Sorry!"


I about fell off the chair.  "What?" I cried, "how can a free verse poet
not
interpret something as accessible as 'Casey at the Bat'?"  There was no
joy
in Berkeley that night, I can tell you.

I soon gave up writing poetry again as I had in the sixties.  I got
tired of
feeling like a well-fed Christian in an arena full of lions.

I should have known better, for on the first evening, Richard announced
The
Paramount Principle of Modern Poetry:  "Whatever works, works!"  Right!
And
any poet can be a pro playing tennis without a net.

I'll let readers of the book decide for themselves the merit or lack
thereof,
as we old trial lawyers like to say, of Silberg's arguments.  I only
want to
point out that he seems to think a literary region lives on poetry
alone.
I'll give him everything he says about poetry and still challenge him to
prove that the San Francisco Bay Area is a literary region.  And I would
tell
him that schmoozing at a poetry reading is not a particularly
interactive
activity.  I have in mind crashing in the same pad and sharing
girlfriends.

Jack Foley has just edited and published a collection of the responses
to
Gioia's Western Star piece brought out by Scarlet Tanager Books this
year
called, perhaps a little grandly, The "Fallen Western Star" Wars.  The
book
puts the dispute into a clear perspective, making very interesting
reading;
but the book would be worth the price of admission if it only included
the
text of Gioia's essay, which is placed in the leadoff position.  Those
who do
not have ready access to such literary zeitungs as the Ruminator Review
can
read Gioia's articulate piece in Jack's anthology.

The book also contains Gioia's short piece for the San Francisco
Magazine
(January 2000) that spelled out for those who hadn't read the writing on
the
stalls that the decline of San Francisco as a literary region was a
matter of
over population and real estate values.
What we're talking about is traditional bohemianism.  George Sterling
defined
bohemianism as devotion to one of the seven arts - and poverty.
Sterling
should have known that his definition was incomplete.  Bohemianism needs
two
other elements: the first is conviviality, from which the second
follows,
namely, a sense of place.  I know because I was there.

I was there in fifties when the beatniks were rousted out of North Beach
by a
sudden influx of tits and ass.  I was there in the sixties when the
Zebra
killer and his associates invaded the Haight Asbury and slimed the
neighborhood relentlessly. When the bastards were through, they went
across
the bay and slimed Telegraph Avenue.

I was also there in the eighties when what was left of the bohemian
culture
was little more than gay coterie hold up in the Mission District amongst
a
population of mostly hostile Hispanics.

I left the city in 1992 and the only thing I've heard since then is that
real
estate values in the Mission have driven all the poor folk completely
out of
the city, which, by Sterling's definition, means the writers and poets
too.

Caf? Trieste still serves coffee to residents and visitors alike, and
you can
still get a drink as Vesuvios or buy a book at City Lights.  But you
won't
find a Weldon Kees sitting at the bar in Vesuvios arguing with a Jack
Kerouac
over who was the reigning jazz star, the local Turk Murphy or Jelly Roll
Morton from "back east."  The El Matador is gone and so is Cal Tjader,
and
you can't hear the Jefferson Airplane playing at Basin Street West or
listen
to Pearl at the Matrix.  And you won't find Don Carpenter and Richard
Braugtigan sitting at a table in a sidewalk caf? on Broadway making fun
of
the local burghers.
Those who weren't even born then will never know what a real literary
region
was like.

If you go looking for the I and Thou Coffeehouse on Haight Street,
you'll
find a pizza parlor; and if you want to take in an Akira Kurosawa flic
at the
old Wave Theater at the end of Irving Street, you'll find there a
Chinese
Restaurant.

If you check out Caf? Picaro in the Mission District on 16th Street, you
might see some bohemian looking fellows at the tables but you won't see
any
of them reaching for the books on the shelves.

This is what I mean about a sense of place.  Every bohemian culture has
to
have its Co-Existence Bagel Shop or its Original Coppa's Restaurant.
And a
literary region is not a literary region without a bohemian culture.  I
don't
care how many of Madison Avenue's precious darlings live in the Bay
Area,
Bohemia is dead.

_______________________________________________
rjeffers mailing list
rjeffers at maillist.isu.edu
http://maillist.isu.edu/mailman/listinfo/rjeffers>>



Jeffrey L. Newberry
Adjunct Instructor
Department of English and Foreign Languages
University of West Florida
11000 University Parkway
Pensacola, FL  32514
850.474.2923
850.473.7330
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From Henry_Gould  Tue Sep 18 08:34:46 2001
From: Henry_Gould (Henry Gould)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 08:34:46 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] They can't see why
In-Reply-To: <3b.1a5d62b8.28d801ae@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010918080624.00a98730@postoffice.brown.edu>

Carlo & Joe Brennan's arguments boil down to:  The terrorism is inevitable 
considering
the facts of US imperialism, and in some sense deserved.

It's more complicated than that, fellas.  1. Jihad terrorism is CHOOSING a 
policy of aggression
which the governments of the West have NO CHOICE but to counter.  2. Jihad 
terrorism is
NOT universally approved in Islamic nations - to suggest that it is, is 
merely another
western stereotype of the Middle East.  3. The fundamentalist movement 
which DOES
support jihad war is no more interested in civil liberties and human rights 
than the most
undemocratic Western-supported regimes in the region.  Cultural 
self-determination
does not include the right to massacre thousands of innocent people.  To 
say this,
does not mean one tacitly approves civilian oppression & deaths instigated 
by the West.

What peacemakers might look for is a middle path between autocratic regimes 
on both sides.
This would have to involve a working alliance of Muslims, Jews, Christians 
& "secularists" (for
lack of a better term).  The goal would be a civil society guaranteed by at 
least 2 primary civil
liberties:  first, the right to the pursuit of happiness - ie., an 
anti-poverty program, stimulated by
Western aid and investment; and second, the right to freedom of thought and 
religious practice.
This is not as far-fetched as it sounds:  the potential is there for 
massive public support in the
Middle East.

Henry

********************************************************
HG afloat:  www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html
www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark
    "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam





From wasanthony  Tue Sep 18 09:17:48 2001
From: wasanthony (jcervantes)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 06:17:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Online poetry library
In-Reply-To: <200109180056.f8I0uh323391@mx13.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <20010918131748.34743.qmail@web12103.mail.yahoo.com>

Tell you what, David, I'm going to add the url to your site to the
listing of links on my poetserv.com site: <
http://www.poetserv.com/links.html>  There's some overlap, but so what.
 Feel free to add the poetserv url to your list of links to sites that
have more links.

- Jim

p.s. - I'm not even going to try accumulating folks' individual
homepages!  There's a link somewhere in my list to a site dedicated
specifically to that enterprise.

--- David Graham <grahamd at mail.ripon.edu> wrote:
> I once made some remarks on a teachers' listserv about one of Eudora
> Welty's
> stories, and apparently I'm easy to find with a search engine.  Years
> later
> I'm still getting regular email queries from high school students who
> want
> me to write their book reports for them.  I understand Joe Duemer's
> frustration.
> 
> Personally I hold cards from let's see, six different libraries in
> two
> states.  So even though I live in the middle of a cowfield in rural
> Wisconsin, there aren't many materials I can't get ahold of, if I
> want them
> badly enough.  It may have to wait for my semi-annual trip to
> Madison, the
> closest big research library, but if I want something badly enough. .
> . .
> 
> Joe's right, of course:  there are a *lot* of materials not available
> on the
> internet.  
> 
> Anyway, with some trepidation I hereby invite everyone to visit the
> following web page that gathers materials on poetry from all over the
> net:
> 
> http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/grahamd/poetrylib.html
> 
> This is primarily intended for my students' use, but it strikes me
> that it
> might be of more general interest.  It's a deliberately
> stripped-down,
> low-graphic clearinghouse site, offering links to poets' home pages,
> critical and biographical resources, full text poetry collections,
> online
> journals, presses, essays about poetry, etc.  I thought it might be
> useful
> to have things like Gioia's "Can Poetry Matter," Bloom's diatribe
> against
> multiculturalism, and Epstein's "Who Killed Poetry?" readily
> reachable from
> one spot--not to mention some nice pieces by Sam Gwynn and others
> familar in
> these parts.  As it happens, there is a decent amount of good
> material
> available online.
> 
> This project is very much in its early stages of development, and I
> certainly would be happy to receive suggestions for additions.  In
> particular, I've got relatively few poets' home pages listed as yet,
> so send
> me your URLs if you wish.  
> 
> 
> David Graham
> _______________________
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> _______________________
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
"Ripples" @ <http://www.poetserv.net>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/



From thebobcooperfor  Tue Sep 18 09:33:23 2001
From: thebobcooperfor (bob cooper)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:33:23 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] more essays needed & Sept. 11th.
Message-ID: <F37NpqhNPPzQT456UnH00010c4b@hotmail.com>

This is not just to support ?dead poet? ? who isn?t dead, but some of you 
seem to be trying to finish off ? but to address an attitude! (Why do first 
posts sometimes, if not always, seem to need aggression? I mean ?address? is 
such a non me, aggressively toned, word...)

I remember a while ago I simply read (and ignored) the comments posted about 
how ?well heeled? (well affluent, well educated) US poets are (in your 
opinions). But that isn?t the case for everyone who takes poetry seriously. 
Want a history lesson? You won?t get one from me ? I?ll just knock you down 
a smidgen in knowledge and education.
Is it acceptable that poetry is Owned by Universities (written by their 
employees, locked away in their libraries)? And only those who can get 
access to University Libraries ought to get access to poetry? Part 
ownership/sponsorship may be OK... But in the US people may not yet have 
dreamed of something like the National Poetry Libraries that exist in the 
United Kingdom for instance. (If you don?t want to be hated so much for your 
attitude, start listening, start dreaming (more than the American Dream) and 
changing).
I say what I say because I?ve been to University (where poets be), I?ve also 
queued in the Benefits Agency ? do you call it Welfare - where poets be too. 
One, a canny mate, was once telling me he?d made a bit because some 
University over in the States had bought all his scraps of paper... But 
paying for privilege like that is short-term (and I don?t just mean he soon 
spent it).
Like Jason I seem to be staring into a widening gap.

And another comment, on your other current obsession, why the US is being 
attacked...
One thing I?m finding difficult to hear is the way ?The World Trade Centre? 
is just being used to name a couple of buildings. I want to hear the word 
?World? said with a bit more appreciation of what the word means: because, 
when the place was still there, it included representatives of many millions 
of people (and excluded many millions too).
The World Trade Centre ? with people of 162 nationalities, from over 40 
countries ? may have been targeted and destroyed (by men in business suits, 
with families and education) because of the way World Trade is controlled 
and run, not just because it?s (on land bought cheap from the natives) in 
Manhattan. (If, as the days go on, any of you see coverage of funerals 
elsewhere in the world ? in how many of the other countries where the 
victims came from ? then that may pacify me a little; may modify and soften 
what I now feel. I you do, help me, let me know. If nothing?s broadcast then 
it?s that attitude again!)
I sense it?s important for people in the US to recognise that not all of 
those countries think that American attitudes to World Trade should rule. 
I?m wondering if some of the injustices that prompted the attack will have 
to be worked at and changed. Grieving (which, in this case, is 
international, not just for individuals) is a process that includes 
(initial) anger, but it must also lead to (eventual and, hopefully, 
beneficial) change.

Y see, I?m a fairly tolerant kinda guy, but I think some of you?se oughta 
realise who y hurtin, what y doin (as poets to other poets, and - as a 
nation with an attitude - to people elsewhere). I?m not tarring y all with 
these two brushes, but ? from how I stare at my screen (like you?re doin 
now) - I sorta see there are faces where the tar oughta stick. OK?

Bob





>From: "dead poet" <adead_poet at hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] more essays needed
>Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:21:19 -0500
>
>the reason i'm not in school is because i had to pay for the last semester 
>i attended, and i haven't had the money to take care of all of it. as soon 
>as it is paid off....

>> > >

etc. etc. etc.

>> > >
>> > >>Dear Dead Poet,
>> > >>you ever try the library? That's the big
>>building where they keep the
>> > >>books?
>> > >

>> >___________________________________________________
>>______________
>> > >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
>>http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>> > >
>> > >_______________________________________________
>> > >New-Poetry mailing list
>> > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> >
>> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>____________________________________________________
>>_____________
>> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
>>http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > New-Poetry mailing list
>> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>New-Poetry mailing list
>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


_________________________________________________________________
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From jdavis  Tue Sep 18 09:41:23 2001
From: jdavis (Jordan Davis)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:41:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] SF
In-Reply-To: <E7C06C25D501D511BA9900508BB82AA90DE19B@ness.agnesscott.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.33.0109180940360.1890-100000@panix2.panix.com>

Anybody out there read Gioia's screed? Does he mention Duncan, Spicer,
Welch, Snyder, Whalen, et al?

Jordan





From wasanthony  Tue Sep 18 10:05:57 2001
From: wasanthony (jcervantes)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 07:05:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] more essays needed & Sept. 11th.
In-Reply-To: <F37NpqhNPPzQT456UnH00010c4b@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010918140557.55755.qmail@web12107.mail.yahoo.com>

Bravo, Bob!  It is *not* just about us, though the effort is presented
as if WE are enlisting world support for something that happened *only*
to US.  I wish I wish our small president would say something else
besides "We've got a job to do and we're gonna do it.  We're gonna get
that sucka" - well, those are not exactly his words, but they are
pretty much what all his words have added up to, speaking to the lowest
common denominator as he is.  Write to some of our political leaders,
Bob, and to religious leaders.  We all should, and not confine our
thoughts and pleas to listserves.

- Jim

--- bob cooper <thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com> wrote:
> This is not just to support ?dead poet? ? who isn?t dead, but some of
> you 
> seem to be trying to finish off ? but to address an attitude! (Why do
> first 
> posts sometimes, if not always, seem to need aggression? I mean
> ?address? is 
> such a non me, aggressively toned, word...)
> 
> I remember a while ago I simply read (and ignored) the comments
> posted about 
> how ?well heeled? (well affluent, well educated) US poets are (in
> your 
> opinions). But that isn?t the case for everyone who takes poetry
> seriously. 
> Want a history lesson? You won?t get one from me ? I?ll just knock
> you down 
> a smidgen in knowledge and education.
> Is it acceptable that poetry is Owned by Universities (written by
> their 
> employees, locked away in their libraries)? And only those who can
> get 
> access to University Libraries ought to get access to poetry? Part 
> ownership/sponsorship may be OK... But in the US people may not yet
> have 
> dreamed of something like the National Poetry Libraries that exist in
> the 
> United Kingdom for instance. (If you don?t want to be hated so much
> for your 
> attitude, start listening, start dreaming (more than the American
> Dream) and 
> changing).
> I say what I say because I?ve been to University (where poets be),
> I?ve also 
> queued in the Benefits Agency ? do you call it Welfare - where poets
> be too. 
> One, a canny mate, was once telling me he?d made a bit because some 
> University over in the States had bought all his scraps of paper...
> But 
> paying for privilege like that is short-term (and I don?t just mean
> he soon 
> spent it).
> Like Jason I seem to be staring into a widening gap.
> 
> And another comment, on your other current obsession, why the US is
> being 
> attacked...
> One thing I?m finding difficult to hear is the way ?The World Trade
> Centre? 
> is just being used to name a couple of buildings. I want to hear the
> word 
> ?World? said with a bit more appreciation of what the word means:
> because, 
> when the place was still there, it included representatives of many
> millions 
> of people (and excluded many millions too).
> The World Trade Centre ? with people of 162 nationalities, from over
> 40 
> countries ? may have been targeted and destroyed (by men in business
> suits, 
> with families and education) because of the way World Trade is
> controlled 
> and run, not just because it?s (on land bought cheap from the
> natives) in 
> Manhattan. (If, as the days go on, any of you see coverage of
> funerals 
> elsewhere in the world ? in how many of the other countries where the
> 
> victims came from ? then that may pacify me a little; may modify and
> soften 
> what I now feel. I you do, help me, let me know. If nothing?s
> broadcast then 
> it?s that attitude again!)
> I sense it?s important for people in the US to recognise that not all
> of 
> those countries think that American attitudes to World Trade should
> rule. 
> I?m wondering if some of the injustices that prompted the attack will
> have 
> to be worked at and changed. Grieving (which, in this case, is 
> international, not just for individuals) is a process that includes 
> (initial) anger, but it must also lead to (eventual and, hopefully, 
> beneficial) change.
> 
> Y see, I?m a fairly tolerant kinda guy, but I think some of you?se
> oughta 
> realise who y hurtin, what y doin (as poets to other poets, and - as
> a 
> nation with an attitude - to people elsewhere). I?m not tarring y all
> with 
> these two brushes, but ? from how I stare at my screen (like you?re
> doin 
> now) - I sorta see there are faces where the tar oughta stick. OK?
> 
> Bob
> 


=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
"Ripples" @ <http://www.poetserv.net>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/



From thebobcooperfor  Tue Sep 18 10:36:30 2001
From: thebobcooperfor (bob cooper)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:36:30 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] more essays needed & Sept. 11th.
Message-ID: <F362NL5JAR6Zysr8I7300010d35@hotmail.com>

Hi Jim,
This is what's going on anyway. You can subscribe to this one if you wish 
(but I guess there's plenty more e-mails like this whizzing round the world 
right now).
Bob


Subject:     Petition to President Bush


From: Nell Marantz <nellmarantz at yahoo.com>

Dear Friends:

A great tragedy has befallen our nation.  A catastrophe that leaves
none of our lives untouched.  Many innocent lives were lost due to
senseless acts of terror and violence.  Although these horriffic events
may outrage many, and rightly so, it cannot be justified or corrected
through more violence.  Another senseless act in retaliation will not
repair the damage done, nor bring back those who were lost.  It will
only perpetuate a violent, barbaric cycle fueled by hatred and
ignorance.  The perpetrators of these crimes must be
caught and brought to justice, but without the continued loss of
innocent
life.

President Bush,
We the undersigned encourage you to take responsible,
peaceful action in bringing the terrorists to justice.  Please
seriously consider the negative ramifications of continued killing and
perpetuating the cycle of violence.  Although many lives have already
been
lost, MANY MORE CAN STILL BE SAVED.

1. Tim Stempel, Portland, OR
2. Satya Byock, Portland, OR
3. Anita Doyle, Missoula, MT
4. Deborah Clow, Missoula, MT
5. Malcolm Donofrio, Missoula, MT
6. Catherine Clow, Missoula, MT
7. Dorik Mechau, Sitka, AK
8. Carolyn Servid, Sitka, AK
9. M. Joby Moore
10. Todd J. Moore
11.  Max T. Moore
12. Stacey McKeever, New York, NY
13. Eleanor Marantz, New York, NY
14. Hannah Whitworth, Bath UK
15. Ellen Phethean, Newcastle upon Tyne UK
16. Bob Cooper, Middlesbrough, UK.

Petition note:  To sign, copy this entire message into a new email and
send to all those in favor of a more peaceful world.  If you sign as a
multiple of 50, please send the petition to President Bush at
president at whitehouse.gov along with the other addresses to continue the
petition.  If you do not intend to continue this petition please at
least forward it to the President's email.

__________________________________________________
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/

________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp





diamond.twig at virgin.net
Check out our website:
www.diamondtwig.co.uk

(& check this site out too - it's kinda well worth a skeg)




>From: jcervantes <wasanthony at yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] more essays needed & Sept. 11th.
>Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 07:05:57 -0700 (PDT)
>
>Bravo, Bob!  It is *not* just about us, though the effort is presented
>as if WE are enlisting world support for something that happened *only*
>to US.  I wish I wish our small president would say something else
>besides "We've got a job to do and we're gonna do it.  We're gonna get
>that sucka" - well, those are not exactly his words, but they are
>pretty much what all his words have added up to, speaking to the lowest
>common denominator as he is.  Write to some of our political leaders,
>Bob, and to religious leaders.  We all should, and not confine our
>thoughts and pleas to listserves.
>
>- Jim
>
>--- bob cooper <thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > This is not just to support ?dead poet? ? who isn?t dead, but some of
> > you
> > seem to be trying to finish off ? but to address an attitude! (Why do
> > first
> > posts sometimes, if not always, seem to need aggression? I mean
> > ?address? is
> > such a non me, aggressively toned, word...)
> >
> > I remember a while ago I simply read (and ignored) the comments
> > posted about
> > how ?well heeled? (well affluent, well educated) US poets are (in
> > your
> > opinions). But that isn?t the case for everyone who takes poetry
> > seriously.
> > Want a history lesson? You won?t get one from me ? I?ll just knock
> > you down
> > a smidgen in knowledge and education.
> > Is it acceptable that poetry is Owned by Universities (written by
> > their
> > employees, locked away in their libraries)? And only those who can
> > get
> > access to University Libraries ought to get access to poetry? Part
> > ownership/sponsorship may be OK... But in the US people may not yet
> > have
> > dreamed of something like the National Poetry Libraries that exist in
> > the
> > United Kingdom for instance. (If you don?t want to be hated so much
> > for your
> > attitude, start listening, start dreaming (more than the American
> > Dream) and
> > changing).
> > I say what I say because I?ve been to University (where poets be),
> > I?ve also
> > queued in the Benefits Agency ? do you call it Welfare - where poets
> > be too.
> > One, a canny mate, was once telling me he?d made a bit because some
> > University over in the States had bought all his scraps of paper...
> > But
> > paying for privilege like that is short-term (and I don?t just mean
> > he soon
> > spent it).
> > Like Jason I seem to be staring into a widening gap.
> >
> > And another comment, on your other current obsession, why the US is
> > being
> > attacked...
> > One thing I?m finding difficult to hear is the way ?The World Trade
> > Centre?
> > is just being used to name a couple of buildings. I want to hear the
> > word
> > ?World? said with a bit more appreciation of what the word means:
> > because,
> > when the place was still there, it included representatives of many
> > millions
> > of people (and excluded many millions too).
> > The World Trade Centre ? with people of 162 nationalities, from over
> > 40
> > countries ? may have been targeted and destroyed (by men in business
> > suits,
> > with families and education) because of the way World Trade is
> > controlled
> > and run, not just because it?s (on land bought cheap from the
> > natives) in
> > Manhattan. (If, as the days go on, any of you see coverage of
> > funerals
> > elsewhere in the world ? in how many of the other countries where the
> >
> > victims came from ? then that may pacify me a little; may modify and
> > soften
> > what I now feel. I you do, help me, let me know. If nothing?s
> > broadcast then
> > it?s that attitude again!)
> > I sense it?s important for people in the US to recognise that not all
> > of
> > those countries think that American attitudes to World Trade should
> > rule.
> > I?m wondering if some of the injustices that prompted the attack will
> > have
> > to be worked at and changed. Grieving (which, in this case, is
> > international, not just for individuals) is a process that includes
> > (initial) anger, but it must also lead to (eventual and, hopefully,
> > beneficial) change.
> >
> > Y see, I?m a fairly tolerant kinda guy, but I think some of you?se
> > oughta
> > realise who y hurtin, what y doin (as poets to other poets, and - as
> > a
> > nation with an attitude - to people elsewhere). I?m not tarring y all
> > with
> > these two brushes, but ? from how I stare at my screen (like you?re
> > doin
> > now) - I sorta see there are faces where the tar oughta stick. OK?
> >
> > Bob
> >
>
>
>=====
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
>Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
>"Ripples" @ <http://www.poetserv.net>
>Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
>__________________________________________________
>Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
>Donate cash, emergency relief information
>http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/US/Emergency_Information/
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From moira_russell  Tue Sep 18 11:06:48 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 07:06:48 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] more essays needed
Message-ID: <F1451UjdSkleUBUhr3u00001124@hotmail.com>

>The other thing you might try, if you can
>find a collection that has a few of these essays, is 
>www.bookfinder.com,where you may be able to find cheap used copies -- or 
>www.half.com

Abebooks.com is also a good resource for finding inexpensive books which are 
hard to get.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From moira_russell  Tue Sep 18 11:10:38 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 07:10:38 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Online poetry library
Message-ID: <F87IZfSp1J106zPpPku00000929@hotmail.com>

> > http://www.ripon.edu/faculty/grahamd/poetrylib.html

Great resource, David.  Thank you.  I know it would have meant a lot to me 
when I was a starving grad student.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From GrahamD  Tue Sep 18 11:14:29 2001
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:14:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: SF
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDEF3@mail.ripon.edu>

Jordan, you can read it yerself at DanaGioia.net:  

http://www.danagioia.net/

Other Gioia essays also available at the same site, including the infamous
you-know-what. . . . 

David Graham, Poetry Librarian

===================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
===================

> ----------
> From: 	Jordan Davis
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Tuesday, September 18, 2001 8:41 AM
> To: 	'new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu '
> Subject: 	[New-Poetry] SF
> 
> Anybody out there read Gioia's screed? Does he mention Duncan, Spicer,
> Welch, Snyder, Whalen, et al?
> 
> Jordan
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 



From JBCM2  Tue Sep 18 12:02:20 2001
From: JBCM2 (JBCM2 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:02:20 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [psyche-arts] They can't see why they are hated
Message-ID: <f.1af70bdb.28d8ca0c@aol.com>

In a message dated 09/18/2001 12:18:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com writes:

<< Joe,
 
 The figure that I heard today on "Fox" was that of 162 nationalities were 
represented as victims of the terrorists' acts of September 11, 2001!  
Terrorists are not selective when it comes down to mass murder!
 
 Bob Cobb
  >>
Bob...

read the message -- I was referring to the hijackers, not their victims.  
your piety is wasted here.  

jb...



From TerryP17  Tue Sep 18 12:12:00 2001
From: TerryP17 (TerryP17 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:12:00 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: SF
Message-ID: <6a.1395d391.28d8cc51@aol.com>

Jordan,

You wrote:

<<Anybody out there read Gioia's screed? Does he mention Duncan, Spicer,
Welch, Snyder, Whalen, et al?>>

Wonder how you know this is a "screed" if you haven't read it. The "Western Star" book, just out, and which I have read, contains the original article and pro and con pieces in reply. Gioia mentions some of the above figures and a whole lot more. His main point, which you may or may not agree with, is that literature still "happens" in SF, but there's not a really cohesive literary community out there anymore as there once was. I'm not prepared to attack or defend the thesis, but that's what it's about. The book itself is fairly insubstantial. Gioia's essay, which again you can agree with or no, is well thought out. The replies are generally puerile, and, as seems customary these days, reproduce long-held "talking points" as opposed to really replying to the essay. Thus, the book is not really very enlightening.


--Terry Ponick 



From Rsgwynn1  Tue Sep 18 12:20:42 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:20:42 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] SF
Message-ID: <39.1ac4a65a.28d8ce5a@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/18/01 8:42:32 AM Central Daylight Time, jdavis at panix.com 
writes:


> 
> Anybody out there read Gioia's screed? Does he mention Duncan, Spicer,
> Welch, Snyder, Whalen, et al?
> 
> Jordan
> 
> 
> 

Read it at http://www.danagioia.net/essays/ewestern.htm
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From GrahamD  Tue Sep 18 12:21:58 2001
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 11:21:58 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE:  Online poetry library
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDEF6@mail.ripon.edu>

Thanks, Jim.  I'm glad to add Poetserv to my links.  Lotsa overlap, yes, but
what the hell.  Wonderful site.

Bob C, I've added your poetry/art site to my links page.  Thanks.  But you
should know that when I was accessing it over a phone modem (56K) I had a
lot of trouble with getting it to load quickly.  

David Graham

===================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
===================

> ----------
> From: 	jcervantes
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Tuesday, September 18, 2001 8:17 AM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] Online poetry library
> 
> Tell you what, David, I'm going to add the url to your site to the
> listing of links on my poetserv.com site: <
> http://www.poetserv.com/links.html>  There's some overlap, but so what.
>  Feel free to add the poetserv url to your list of links to sites that
> have more links.
> 
> - Jim
> 
> p.s. - I'm not even going to try accumulating folks' individual
> homepages!  There's a link somewhere in my list to a site dedicated
> specifically to that enterprise.
> 
> 



From JBCM2  Tue Sep 18 12:54:43 2001
From: JBCM2 (JBCM2 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:54:43 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] They can't see why
Message-ID: <156.11f6cf6.28d8d653@aol.com>

As usual, Henry, when you stray outside of esoteric poetry you flounder.  
It's best to consider the facts, however inconvenient they are.  For example, 
we're over there.  We have fed the fire of fundamentalism with our projection 
of military and political force, and our willingness to use that force, 
particularly the military.  We're not being attacked for our christian 
beliefs or our consumer-ridden decadence.  If we did not maintain our 
presence in other parts of the world that we wish to exploit, there would 
have been no attack on the WTC, or the Pentagon.  I suppose it's easier to 
avoid looking at the history of the West, particularly the of the US, and 
imagine that this "Jihad" sprang magically from Zeus' foreskin.  Your notion 
of harmony between the states of the Muslim world is a pipe dream, and has no 
historical basis.  There is a huge cultural divide between various Arab 
cultures and your western notion of "human rights."  As a matter of fact -- 
not public rhetoric, mind you -- the US is not often concerned with human 
rights when it comes to other nations.*  I'm not arguing for the superiority 
of either side of the abyss, but I don't think that the US or anyone else has 
the right to impose their values on cultures that have survived for 
centuries, just as I don't believe those cultures have the right to impose 
their values on us.  I do think we need to understand how we got into this 
mess, if only as a prelude for getting out of it.  I'm not optimistic.  You 
speak of the West's need to "counter."  By this I assume you're referring to 
military action without the niceties of meaningful judicial process.  Do you 
know what will ensue, Henry?  More of the same.  Look at history, it's choked 
with examples that validate this conclusion.  The issue, as always, is a 
political veneer covering unbridled greed.  Oil.  Real estate.  Weapons.  
This is why the political will necessary to extract US meddling and 
domination is lacking, and this is why the river of innocent blood with 
deepen and widen  -- nothing unusual except that this time, some of the 
innocent blood will flow in this country.

Before one jumps to accept the prevailing blather, one should question why 
young men and women are willing to sacrifice their lives in the furtherance 
of their beliefs.  Whatever else one thinks of them, they are committed, and 
it's this level of commitment that is scaring all of us.  It's no good 
referring to them as deranged robots brainwashed by some charismatic zealot 
to do his unbending will, this isn't Jonestown.  We're in this mess because 
as a country, we blindly stood by while our country committed (and still 
commits) unspeakable acts, immersed as we are in the orgy of consumerism that 
grips us.  Because we lack either the necessary moral strength or the 
political will, we're going to have to continue doing despicable things, and 
have despicable things done to us.  But as Thomas Pynchon notes, we don't 
have to bullshit ourselves as to what's required from the rest of the world 
in order for the West to live so high on the hog.  So yes, Henry, given the 
real politic of economic hegemony, the attack on the WTC, or something like 
it, was inevitable, as those who run this country knew full well, which you 
would realize if you would only remember all the times that our leaders have 
warned us that it was a question of 'when', not 'if'.  

joe brennan

*"We have about 50% of the world's wealth, but only 6.5% of its population... 
In this situation, we cannot fail to be the object of envy and resentment. 
Our real task in this coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships 
which will permit us to maintain this position of disparity without detriment 
to our national security. To do this, we will need to dispense with all 
sentimentality and day-dreaming; and our attention will have to be 
concentrated everywhere on our immediate national objectives. We need not 
deceive ourselves that we can afford today the luxury of altruism and 
world-benefaction.... We should cease to talk about vague and - for the Far 
East - unrealistic objectives such as human rights, the raising of the living 
standards, and democratization. The day is not far off  when we are going to 
have to deal in straight power concepts. The less we are then hampered by 
idealistic slogans, the better."

Geroge Kenan, 
Chief Planner US State Department
February 24, 1948



In a message dated 09/18/2001 8:36:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Henry_Gould at brown.edu writes:

<< Carlo & Joe Brennan's arguments boil down to:  The terrorism is inevitable 
 considering
 the facts of US imperialism, and in some sense deserved.
 
 It's more complicated than that, fellas.  1. Jihad terrorism is CHOOSING a 
 policy of aggression
 which the governments of the West have NO CHOICE but to counter.  2. Jihad 
 terrorism is
 NOT universally approved in Islamic nations - to suggest that it is, is 
 merely another
 western stereotype of the Middle East.  3. The fundamentalist movement 
 which DOES
 support jihad war is no more interested in civil liberties and human rights 
 than the most
 undemocratic Western-supported regimes in the region.  Cultural 
 self-determination
 does not include the right to massacre thousands of innocent people.  To 
 say this,
 does not mean one tacitly approves civilian oppression & deaths instigated 
 by the West.
 
 What peacemakers might look for is a middle path between autocratic regimes 
 on both sides.
 This would have to involve a working alliance of Muslims, Jews, Christians 
 & "secularists" (for
 lack of a better term).  The goal would be a civil society guaranteed by at 
 least 2 primary civil
 liberties:  first, the right to the pursuit of happiness - ie., an 
 anti-poverty program, stimulated by
 Western aid and investment; and second, the right to freedom of thought and 
 religious practice.
 This is not as far-fetched as it sounds:  the potential is there for 
 massive public support in the
 Middle East.
 
 Henry
  >>



From paul.lake  Tue Sep 18 01:34:52 2001
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 00:34:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] They can't see
Message-ID: <B7CC472C.1C42%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

"I don't see the relevance of Paul Lake's article as a response to the
article 
I posted, but then I never see the relevance of Paul Lake's remarks.  I
suppose we should be grateful that he has, vicariously it seems, indicated
his impression of the racist nature of arabs the world over, and how
unreasonable, murderous, etc., they are.  I can only conclude from this that
he's in agreement with US policy in the Middle Ease, even if he doesn't know
what it is.

joe brennan...."


I simply wanted to show that other people have other perspectives than yours
on the complexities of the current situation, that the bombing of America
and killing of Americans is not as simple as The Guardian's anti-American
article suggested.  Islamist terrorists commit the ultimate hate crime and
you imply, by tortuous logic, that I'm a racist for posting an article--by
someone else--that describes the hatred of some Arab extremists toward
Americans and Israel. Let's have reason and clarity, not name calling.

Paul Lake




From alphavil  Tue Sep 18 13:22:20 2001
From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:22:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: SF
References: <6a.1395d391.28d8cc51@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3BA782CB.CE1A42E4@ix.netcom.com>

"Just out"?! Jack Foley gave me a copy 2 years ago. He was visiting here in DC then. As for pure poetic energy San Francisco sounds like paradise compared to the myopic whimperings of DC poetics, if you can grace the lifeless blither here with the term poetic. CP

Note: If you don't like to here what a bunch of hustling opportunists the Langpo's are, don't buy Foley's book.





TerryP17 at aol.com wrote:

> Jordan,
>
> You wrote:
>
> <<Anybody out there read Gioia's screed? Does he mention Duncan, Spicer,
> Welch, Snyder, Whalen, et al?>>
>
> Wonder how you know this is a "screed" if you haven't read it. The "Western Star" book, just out, and which I have read, contains the original article and pro and con pieces in reply. Gioia mentions some of the above figures and a whole lot more. His main point, which you may or may not agree with, is that literature still "happens" in SF, but there's not a really cohesive literary community out there anymore as there once was. I'm not prepared to attack or defend the thesis, but that's what it's about. The book itself is fairly insubstantial. Gioia's essay, which again you can agree with or no, is well thought out. The replies are generally puerile, and, as seems customary these days, reproduce long-held "talking points" as opposed to really replying to the essay. Thus, the book is not really very enlightening.
>
> --Terry Ponick
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From Henry_Gould  Tue Sep 18 13:29:54 2001
From: Henry_Gould (Henry Gould)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:29:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] They can't see why
In-Reply-To: <156.11f6cf6.28d8d653@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010918131301.00a9e190@postoffice.brown.edu>

After a while it seems to get pointless debating with you and 
Carlo.  You're so busy spewing
patronizing ad hominems as a means of shoring up your own arguments.  No 
one has
suggested that there is not a heavy & heavy-handed US presence in the 
Middle East.  I have been
talking about a reconsideration of that presence, spearheaded by a 
non-governmental secular-
religious movement, which would project a vision of religious tolerance 
combined with civil
liberties and economic development.  What you & Carlo want to do, however, 
is drum into
our heads that US policy is to blame for islamic terrorism.  I think this 
is a very simplistic
viewpoint.

Henry


At 12:54 PM 9/18/01 -0400, you wrote:
>As usual, Henry, when you stray outside of esoteric poetry you flounder.
>It's best to consider the facts, however inconvenient they are.  For example,
>we're over there.  We have fed the fire of fundamentalism with our projection
>of military and political force, and our willingness to use that force,
>particularly the military.  We're not being attacked for our christian
>beliefs or our consumer-ridden decadence.  If we did not maintain our
>presence in other parts of the world that we wish to exploit, there would
>have been no attack on the WTC, or the Pentagon.  I suppose it's easier to
>avoid looking at the history of the West, particularly the of the US, and
>imagine that this "Jihad" sprang magically from Zeus' foreskin.  Your notion
>of harmony between the states of the Muslim world is a pipe dream, and has no
>historical basis.  There is a huge cultural divide between various Arab
>cultures and your western notion of "human rights."  As a matter of fact --
>not public rhetoric, mind you -- the US is not often concerned with human
>rights when it comes to other nations.*  I'm not arguing for the superiority
>of either side of the abyss, but I don't think that the US or anyone else has
>the right to impose their values on cultures that have survived for
>centuries, just as I don't believe those cultures have the right to impose
>their values on us.  I do think we need to understand how we got into this
>mess, if only as a prelude for getting out of it.  I'm not optimistic.  You
>speak of the West's need to "counter."  By this I assume you're referring to
>military action without the niceties of meaningful judicial process.  Do you
>know what will ensue, Henry?  More of the same.  Look at history, it's choked
>with examples that validate this conclusion.  The issue, as always, is a
>political veneer covering unbridled greed.  Oil.  Real estate.  Weapons.
>This is why the political will necessary to extract US meddling and
>domination is lacking, and this is why the river of innocent blood with
>deepen and widen  -- nothing unusual except that this time, some of the
>innocent blood will flow in this country.
>
>Before one jumps to accept the prevailing blather, one should question why
>young men and women are willing to sacrifice their lives in the furtherance
>of their beliefs.  Whatever else one thinks of them, they are committed, and
>it's this level of commitment that is scaring all of us.  It's no good
>referring to them as deranged robots brainwashed by some charismatic zealot
>to do his unbending will, this isn't Jonestown.  We're in this mess because
>as a country, we blindly stood by while our country committed (and still
>commits) unspeakable acts, immersed as we are in the orgy of consumerism that
>grips us.  Because we lack either the necessary moral strength or the
>political will, we're going to have to continue doing despicable things, and
>have despicable things done to us.  But as Thomas Pynchon notes, we don't
>have to bullshit ourselves as to what's required from the rest of the world
>in order for the West to live so high on the hog.  So yes, Henry, given the
>real politic of economic hegemony, the attack on the WTC, or something like
>it, was inevitable, as those who run this country knew full well, which you
>would realize if you would only remember all the times that our leaders have
>warned us that it was a question of 'when', not 'if'.
>
>joe brennan
>
>*"We have about 50% of the world's wealth, but only 6.5% of its population...
>In this situation, we cannot fail to be the object of envy and resentment.
>Our real task in this coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships
>which will permit us to maintain this position of disparity without detriment
>to our national security. To do this, we will need to dispense with all
>sentimentality and day-dreaming; and our attention will have to be
>concentrated everywhere on our immediate national objectives. We need not
>deceive ourselves that we can afford today the luxury of altruism and
>world-benefaction.... We should cease to talk about vague and - for the Far
>East - unrealistic objectives such as human rights, the raising of the living
>standards, and democratization. The day is not far off  when we are going to
>have to deal in straight power concepts. The less we are then hampered by
>idealistic slogans, the better."
>
>Geroge Kenan,
>Chief Planner US State Department
>February 24, 1948
>
>
>
>In a message dated 09/18/2001 8:36:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
>Henry_Gould at brown.edu writes:
>
><< Carlo & Joe Brennan's arguments boil down to:  The terrorism is inevitable
>  considering
>  the facts of US imperialism, and in some sense deserved.
>
>  It's more complicated than that, fellas.  1. Jihad terrorism is CHOOSING a
>  policy of aggression
>  which the governments of the West have NO CHOICE but to counter.  2. Jihad
>  terrorism is
>  NOT universally approved in Islamic nations - to suggest that it is, is
>  merely another
>  western stereotype of the Middle East.  3. The fundamentalist movement
>  which DOES
>  support jihad war is no more interested in civil liberties and human rights
>  than the most
>  undemocratic Western-supported regimes in the region.  Cultural
>  self-determination
>  does not include the right to massacre thousands of innocent people.  To
>  say this,
>  does not mean one tacitly approves civilian oppression & deaths instigated
>  by the West.
>
>  What peacemakers might look for is a middle path between autocratic regimes
>  on both sides.
>  This would have to involve a working alliance of Muslims, Jews, Christians
>  & "secularists" (for
>  lack of a better term).  The goal would be a civil society guaranteed by at
>  least 2 primary civil
>  liberties:  first, the right to the pursuit of happiness - ie., an
>  anti-poverty program, stimulated by
>  Western aid and investment; and second, the right to freedom of thought and
>  religious practice.
>  This is not as far-fetched as it sounds:  the potential is there for
>  massive public support in the
>  Middle East.
>
>  Henry
>   >>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
********************************************************
HG afloat:  www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html
www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark
    "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam





From schloss  Tue Sep 18 13:35:22 2001
From: schloss (Christopher Walker)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:35:22 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] They can't see
Message-ID: <024101c14068$4dcf6b20$53ef28c3@ssolhcs>

Paul Lake wrote:
<snip>
I simply wanted to show that other people have other perspectives than yours
on the complexities of the current situation, that the bombing of America
and killing of Americans is not as simple as The Guardian's anti-American
article suggested.
<snip>

But the Milne article wasn't anti-American. It was addressing a key problem:
that US culture cannot bear much self-criticism and demands, of others,
unconditional love.

CW





From alphavil  Tue Sep 18 13:40:25 2001
From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:40:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [psyche-arts] They can't see why they are hated
References: <a.12b6a523.28d7b723@aol.com> <3BA68901.40AF71E@sgi.net>
Message-ID: <3BA78709.63F921DC@ix.netcom.com>

Only 90% of the American people are xenophobic hicks? I'm encouraged.

Of course, your postings, Brent, are the kind of Madison Avenue mob rule that give
the elites great comfort. CP






From moira_russell  Tue Sep 18 13:56:50 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 09:56:50 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] They can't see why
Message-ID: <F993XaDFuXCpU6q5ijb00001722@hotmail.com>

>As usual, Henry, when you stray outside of esoteric poetry you flounder. 
>It's best to consider the facts, however inconvenient they are

Reading through all this is getting exhausting.  Maybe the interested people 
could take it offlist?

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From jdavis  Tue Sep 18 13:53:50 2001
From: jdavis (Jordan Davis)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:53:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: SF
In-Reply-To: <6a.1395d391.28d8cc51@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.33.0109181323370.18258-100000@panix2.panix.com>

Hi Terry - I've read the essay in question, and you're right, it's not a
screed - it's a snooze. (Thanks to David G for the pointer to
danagioia.net - lots of pictures!) Connoisseurs of poignantly perverse
revisionism will dig Dana G's appropriations, both of Allen Ginsberg
(declared a California writer) and of William Carlos Williams' arguments
against anglocentric American writing, which Dana G recasts as the
hegemony of the New York-intellectual (ahem! code phrase much?).

Not to put too fine a point on it, but to read a call to write in
macaronic rhymed verse the true poetry of California, in this of all
months, well, I reach for my Dead Kennedys tape. Not that I have anything
against macaronic rhymed verse - see Kenneth Koch's book On the Edge, and
his poems Cherche Midi (in Days and Nights) or Something (an early version
of which appeared in Po&sie).

No, it's not the hateful canard that there are essential qualities of
place to be expressed, it's the trenchant ignorance that gets to
me. While I enjoyed *something* about the snippet of The Man with the
Hoe, I hope I'm not the only one skeptical about the assertions made here
- that it "was and remains the quintessential Bay Area poem." He cites
Rexroth on the SF Renaissance but has nothing beyond a catalogue of names
(and some faint praise for Duncan) - a catalogue that omits Spicer,
Whalen, and Welch, not to speak of Kyger or anybody else in Bolinas, at SF
State, and let's not even *think* about language poetry, which he brackets
with a semi-accurate 'albeit'.

To try to see it from his perspective and to venture to credit him with
knowledge of what he's omitted, perhaps these other writers don't
merit mention in a survey of San Francisco letters because they don't seek
the same national audience Dana G seeks - in other words, they're too
local, too minor. Before I continue with this line of argument - am I
reading him correctly? The only literature worth discussing is the
literature that has attracted popular attention?

Pausing,
Jordan





From alphavil  Tue Sep 18 13:58:50 2001
From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:58:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] They can't see why
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010918131301.00a9e190@postoffice.brown.edu>
Message-ID: <3BA78B5A.A0BFB910@ix.netcom.com>

Henry,

I'll pubically admit this. I love you, buddy. But you don't know anything about
this topic, or much else as regards U.S. policy and refuse to learn. Whatever my
position or Joe's, we have spent decades in the trenches. At one point for 3 years
we did a weekly television show, an hour long, 110 hours in all, providing
alternative news coverage. We had permission from 77 publications to use their
material as well as access to primary documentation. Joe and I personally read
over 200 articles a month. So when I post a 500 word email on the FMLN, the DIA,
WACL or whatever, its not ad hominem. Your head in the sand until you hear a
vibration is ad hominem. And that goes for a lot of the other punks on these
lists.

And we've been involved in a lot more which modesty and time prevents me from
talking about. I resent the ad hominem comments from the lazy and gullible. Taping
actions for CISPES and seeing the slaughter in El Salvador put me over the hump.
I'm oughta patience with you xenophobic hicks.CP

Henry Gould wrote:

> After a while it seems to get pointless debating with you and
> Carlo.  You're so busy spewing
> patronizing ad hominems as a means of shoring up your own arguments.  No
> one has
> suggested that there is not a heavy & heavy-handed US presence in the
> Middle East.  I have been
> talking about a reconsideration of that presence, spearheaded by a
> non-governmental secular-
> religious movement, which would project a vision of religious tolerance
> combined with civil
> liberties and economic development.  What you & Carlo want to do, however,
> is drum into
> our heads that US policy is to blame for islamic terrorism.  I think this
> is a very simplistic
> viewpoint.
>
> Henry
>
> At 12:54 PM 9/18/01 -0400, you wrote:
> >As usual, Henry, when you stray outside of esoteric poetry you flounder.
> >It's best to consider the facts, however inconvenient they are.  For example,
> >we're over there.  We have fed the fire of fundamentalism with our projection
> >of military and political force, and our willingness to use that force,
> >particularly the military.  We're not being attacked for our christian
> >beliefs or our consumer-ridden decadence.  If we did not maintain our
> >presence in other parts of the world that we wish to exploit, there would
> >have been no attack on the WTC, or the Pentagon.  I suppose it's easier to
> >avoid looking at the history of the West, particularly the of the US, and
> >imagine that this "Jihad" sprang magically from Zeus' foreskin.  Your notion
> >of harmony between the states of the Muslim world is a pipe dream, and has no
> >historical basis.  There is a huge cultural divide between various Arab
> >cultures and your western notion of "human rights."  As a matter of fact --
> >not public rhetoric, mind you -- the US is not often concerned with human
> >rights when it comes to other nations.*  I'm not arguing for the superiority
> >of either side of the abyss, but I don't think that the US or anyone else has
> >the right to impose their values on cultures that have survived for
> >centuries, just as I don't believe those cultures have the right to impose
> >their values on us.  I do think we need to understand how we got into this
> >mess, if only as a prelude for getting out of it.  I'm not optimistic.  You
> >speak of the West's need to "counter."  By this I assume you're referring to
> >military action without the niceties of meaningful judicial process.  Do you
> >know what will ensue, Henry?  More of the same.  Look at history, it's choked
> >with examples that validate this conclusion.  The issue, as always, is a
> >political veneer covering unbridled greed.  Oil.  Real estate.  Weapons.
> >This is why the political will necessary to extract US meddling and
> >domination is lacking, and this is why the river of innocent blood with
> >deepen and widen  -- nothing unusual except that this time, some of the
> >innocent blood will flow in this country.
> >
> >Before one jumps to accept the prevailing blather, one should question why
> >young men and women are willing to sacrifice their lives in the furtherance
> >of their beliefs.  Whatever else one thinks of them, they are committed, and
> >it's this level of commitment that is scaring all of us.  It's no good
> >referring to them as deranged robots brainwashed by some charismatic zealot
> >to do his unbending will, this isn't Jonestown.  We're in this mess because
> >as a country, we blindly stood by while our country committed (and still
> >commits) unspeakable acts, immersed as we are in the orgy of consumerism that
> >grips us.  Because we lack either the necessary moral strength or the
> >political will, we're going to have to continue doing despicable things, and
> >have despicable things done to us.  But as Thomas Pynchon notes, we don't
> >have to bullshit ourselves as to what's required from the rest of the world
> >in order for the West to live so high on the hog.  So yes, Henry, given the
> >real politic of economic hegemony, the attack on the WTC, or something like
> >it, was inevitable, as those who run this country knew full well, which you
> >would realize if you would only remember all the times that our leaders have
> >warned us that it was a question of 'when', not 'if'.
> >
> >joe brennan
> >
> >*"We have about 50% of the world's wealth, but only 6.5% of its population...
> >In this situation, we cannot fail to be the object of envy and resentment.
> >Our real task in this coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships
> >which will permit us to maintain this position of disparity without detriment
> >to our national security. To do this, we will need to dispense with all
> >sentimentality and day-dreaming; and our attention will have to be
> >concentrated everywhere on our immediate national objectives. We need not
> >deceive ourselves that we can afford today the luxury of altruism and
> >world-benefaction.... We should cease to talk about vague and - for the Far
> >East - unrealistic objectives such as human rights, the raising of the living
> >standards, and democratization. The day is not far off  when we are going to
> >have to deal in straight power concepts. The less we are then hampered by
> >idealistic slogans, the better."
> >
> >Geroge Kenan,
> >Chief Planner US State Department
> >February 24, 1948
> >
> >
> >
> >In a message dated 09/18/2001 8:36:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> >Henry_Gould at brown.edu writes:
> >
> ><< Carlo & Joe Brennan's arguments boil down to:  The terrorism is inevitable
> >  considering
> >  the facts of US imperialism, and in some sense deserved.
> >
> >  It's more complicated than that, fellas.  1. Jihad terrorism is CHOOSING a
> >  policy of aggression
> >  which the governments of the West have NO CHOICE but to counter.  2. Jihad
> >  terrorism is
> >  NOT universally approved in Islamic nations - to suggest that it is, is
> >  merely another
> >  western stereotype of the Middle East.  3. The fundamentalist movement
> >  which DOES
> >  support jihad war is no more interested in civil liberties and human rights
> >  than the most
> >  undemocratic Western-supported regimes in the region.  Cultural
> >  self-determination
> >  does not include the right to massacre thousands of innocent people.  To
> >  say this,
> >  does not mean one tacitly approves civilian oppression & deaths instigated
> >  by the West.
> >
> >  What peacemakers might look for is a middle path between autocratic regimes
> >  on both sides.
> >  This would have to involve a working alliance of Muslims, Jews, Christians
> >  & "secularists" (for
> >  lack of a better term).  The goal would be a civil society guaranteed by at
> >  least 2 primary civil
> >  liberties:  first, the right to the pursuit of happiness - ie., an
> >  anti-poverty program, stimulated by
> >  Western aid and investment; and second, the right to freedom of thought and
> >  religious practice.
> >  This is not as far-fetched as it sounds:  the potential is there for
> >  massive public support in the
> >  Middle East.
> >
> >  Henry
> >   >>
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ********************************************************
> HG afloat:  www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html
> www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark
>     "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From Cadaly  Tue Sep 18 14:26:21 2001
From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:26:21 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] more essays needed
Message-ID: <83.101fc47f.28d8ebcd@aol.com>

There are a couple of sources that are available for teachers to use if they 
claim they are making up packets to expensively sell to students, such as 
xanedu.com.

The main engine behind this is proquest, which is available free through my 
library in any case, as are Granger's & Gale.

It is decent for essays which have appeared in the U.S. in the past three or 
four years in the big academic lit journals:  Parnassus, APR, Antioch, 
Kenyon.  These STILL require clearance to use in class!

Essays not in the public domain are simply not widely available online free 
-- once in a while, you'll find an essay an adjunct has illegally put up on a 
site out of desperation -- and that seems to be what you seek.   

Rgds,
Catherine Daly
cadaly at pacbell.net
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From Edward.Byrne  Tue Sep 18 14:40:20 2001
From: Edward.Byrne (Edward Byrne)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:40:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poem: "Early Evening"
Message-ID: <SIMEON.10109181320.A@muahost.valpo.edu>

The following is a poem I wrote a few years ago after the 1993 bombing 
of the World Trade Center; unfortunately, it seems appropriate this 
week as well.


EARLY EVENING

"These and all else were to me as they are to you...."
          --Walt Whitman


Past the pedestrians, beyond the exhausts
     of automobiles, above all the tall buildings,
          a semi-translucent smear of clouds
               stretches across the skyline,

as if to embrace Walt's city in its dinginess.  Already,
     the automatic streetlamps, bewildered 
          by an early darkness, have been lit,
               taxi headlights flare down the avenues.

"What is it then between us?" the poet once asked,
     and his words lie tangled in my darkening 
          thoughts this evening, as sharp angles of shadows 
               mutilate the Manhattan Whitman once knew.

Piles of special afternoon _Post_ headlining terrorist attacks --
     stacked between remaining morning editions 
          of the _News_ and _Times_  -- still fill street-corner
               newsstands.  A foghorn sounds 

from somewhere on the East River.  Construction workers descend 
     their scaffolding, skeletal metal glittering like glass 
          under its string of bare bulbs.  A crescent moon 
               arrives over the river, its worn image 

and waning glow prematurely peering down 
     onto the city's parcels, doing little to illuminate 
          the partial darkness of dusk, offering no comfort 
               for the weary at this end of day.

     -- Edward Byrne 
     [from _East of Omaha_, Pecan Grove Press, 1998]

--------------------------------------------------

Edward Byrne
Department of English
322 Huegli Hall
Valparaiso University
Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493

E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu
http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/

Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu
http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/
Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
Fax: (219) 464-5511

--------------------------------------------------








From Henry_Gould  Tue Sep 18 14:42:22 2001
From: Henry_Gould (Henry Gould)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:42:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] They can't see why
In-Reply-To: <3BA78B5A.A0BFB910@ix.netcom.com>
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010918131301.00a9e190@postoffice.brown.edu>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010918143325.00a81330@postoffice.brown.edu>

& I respectfully submit, Carlo, that your years or decades of "covering" US 
international realpolitik
& war crimes are not in themselves an argument, or a justification of the 
particular perspective on
recent events that you present.  You & Joe are right to urge people to lift 
the veil on the historical
particulars that led up to where we are.  I just don't happen to agree with 
your demonized portrayal
of US policy.  To you, that is just ignorance.  That's the end of that 
debate.

Then - to change the subject slightly - what would YOU suggest the US and 
the West do, right now, in response to a concerted, unfinished terrorist 
jihad campaign against civilian mass targets?

Henry



At 01:58 PM 9/18/01 -0400, you wrote:
>Henry,
>
>I'll pubically admit this. I love you, buddy. But you don't know anything 
>about
>this topic, or much else as regards U.S. policy and refuse to learn. 
>Whatever my
>position or Joe's, we have spent decades in the trenches. At one point for 
>3 years
>we did a weekly television show, an hour long, 110 hours in all, providing
>alternative news coverage. We had permission from 77 publications to use their
>material as well as access to primary documentation. Joe and I personally read
>over 200 articles a month. So when I post a 500 word email on the FMLN, 
>the DIA,
>WACL or whatever, its not ad hominem. Your head in the sand until you hear a
>vibration is ad hominem. And that goes for a lot of the other punks on these
>lists.
>
>And we've been involved in a lot more which modesty and time prevents me from
>talking about. I resent the ad hominem comments from the lazy and 
>gullible. Taping
>actions for CISPES and seeing the slaughter in El Salvador put me over the 
>hump.
>I'm oughta patience with you xenophobic hicks.CP
>
>Henry Gould wrote:
>
> > After a while it seems to get pointless debating with you and
> > Carlo.  You're so busy spewing
> > patronizing ad hominems as a means of shoring up your own arguments.  No
> > one has
> > suggested that there is not a heavy & heavy-handed US presence in the
> > Middle East.  I have been
> > talking about a reconsideration of that presence, spearheaded by a
> > non-governmental secular-
> > religious movement, which would project a vision of religious tolerance
> > combined with civil
> > liberties and economic development.  What you & Carlo want to do, however,
> > is drum into
> > our heads that US policy is to blame for islamic terrorism.  I think this
> > is a very simplistic
> > viewpoint.
> >
> > Henry
> >
> > At 12:54 PM 9/18/01 -0400, you wrote:
> > >As usual, Henry, when you stray outside of esoteric poetry you flounder.
> > >It's best to consider the facts, however inconvenient they are.  For 
> example,
> > >we're over there.  We have fed the fire of fundamentalism with our 
> projection
> > >of military and political force, and our willingness to use that force,
> > >particularly the military.  We're not being attacked for our christian
> > >beliefs or our consumer-ridden decadence.  If we did not maintain our
> > >presence in other parts of the world that we wish to exploit, there would
> > >have been no attack on the WTC, or the Pentagon.  I suppose it's easier to
> > >avoid looking at the history of the West, particularly the of the US, and
> > >imagine that this "Jihad" sprang magically from Zeus' foreskin.  Your 
> notion
> > >of harmony between the states of the Muslim world is a pipe dream, and 
> has no
> > >historical basis.  There is a huge cultural divide between various Arab
> > >cultures and your western notion of "human rights."  As a matter of 
> fact --
> > >not public rhetoric, mind you -- the US is not often concerned with human
> > >rights when it comes to other nations.*  I'm not arguing for the 
> superiority
> > >of either side of the abyss, but I don't think that the US or anyone 
> else has
> > >the right to impose their values on cultures that have survived for
> > >centuries, just as I don't believe those cultures have the right to impose
> > >their values on us.  I do think we need to understand how we got into this
> > >mess, if only as a prelude for getting out of it.  I'm not 
> optimistic.  You
> > >speak of the West's need to "counter."  By this I assume you're 
> referring to
> > >military action without the niceties of meaningful judicial 
> process.  Do you
> > >know what will ensue, Henry?  More of the same.  Look at history, it's 
> choked
> > >with examples that validate this conclusion.  The issue, as always, is a
> > >political veneer covering unbridled greed.  Oil.  Real estate.  Weapons.
> > >This is why the political will necessary to extract US meddling and
> > >domination is lacking, and this is why the river of innocent blood with
> > >deepen and widen  -- nothing unusual except that this time, some of the
> > >innocent blood will flow in this country.
> > >
> > >Before one jumps to accept the prevailing blather, one should question why
> > >young men and women are willing to sacrifice their lives in the 
> furtherance
> > >of their beliefs.  Whatever else one thinks of them, they are 
> committed, and
> > >it's this level of commitment that is scaring all of us.  It's no good
> > >referring to them as deranged robots brainwashed by some charismatic 
> zealot
> > >to do his unbending will, this isn't Jonestown.  We're in this mess 
> because
> > >as a country, we blindly stood by while our country committed (and still
> > >commits) unspeakable acts, immersed as we are in the orgy of 
> consumerism that
> > >grips us.  Because we lack either the necessary moral strength or the
> > >political will, we're going to have to continue doing despicable 
> things, and
> > >have despicable things done to us.  But as Thomas Pynchon notes, we don't
> > >have to bullshit ourselves as to what's required from the rest of the 
> world
> > >in order for the West to live so high on the hog.  So yes, Henry, 
> given the
> > >real politic of economic hegemony, the attack on the WTC, or something 
> like
> > >it, was inevitable, as those who run this country knew full well, 
> which you
> > >would realize if you would only remember all the times that our 
> leaders have
> > >warned us that it was a question of 'when', not 'if'.
> > >
> > >joe brennan
> > >
> > >*"We have about 50% of the world's wealth, but only 6.5% of its 
> population...
> > >In this situation, we cannot fail to be the object of envy and resentment.
> > >Our real task in this coming period is to devise a pattern of 
> relationships
> > >which will permit us to maintain this position of disparity without 
> detriment
> > >to our national security. To do this, we will need to dispense with all
> > >sentimentality and day-dreaming; and our attention will have to be
> > >concentrated everywhere on our immediate national objectives. We need not
> > >deceive ourselves that we can afford today the luxury of altruism and
> > >world-benefaction.... We should cease to talk about vague and - for 
> the Far
> > >East - unrealistic objectives such as human rights, the raising of the 
> living
> > >standards, and democratization. The day is not far off  when we are 
> going to
> > >have to deal in straight power concepts. The less we are then hampered by
> > >idealistic slogans, the better."
> > >
> > >Geroge Kenan,
> > >Chief Planner US State Department
> > >February 24, 1948
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >In a message dated 09/18/2001 8:36:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > >Henry_Gould at brown.edu writes:
> > >
> > ><< Carlo & Joe Brennan's arguments boil down to:  The terrorism is 
> inevitable
> > >  considering
> > >  the facts of US imperialism, and in some sense deserved.
> > >
> > >  It's more complicated than that, fellas.  1. Jihad terrorism is 
> CHOOSING a
> > >  policy of aggression
> > >  which the governments of the West have NO CHOICE but to counter.  2. 
> Jihad
> > >  terrorism is
> > >  NOT universally approved in Islamic nations - to suggest that it is, is
> > >  merely another
> > >  western stereotype of the Middle East.  3. The fundamentalist movement
> > >  which DOES
> > >  support jihad war is no more interested in civil liberties and human 
> rights
> > >  than the most
> > >  undemocratic Western-supported regimes in the region.  Cultural
> > >  self-determination
> > >  does not include the right to massacre thousands of innocent people.  To
> > >  say this,
> > >  does not mean one tacitly approves civilian oppression & deaths 
> instigated
> > >  by the West.
> > >
> > >  What peacemakers might look for is a middle path between autocratic 
> regimes
> > >  on both sides.
> > >  This would have to involve a working alliance of Muslims, Jews, 
> Christians
> > >  & "secularists" (for
> > >  lack of a better term).  The goal would be a civil society 
> guaranteed by at
> > >  least 2 primary civil
> > >  liberties:  first, the right to the pursuit of happiness - ie., an
> > >  anti-poverty program, stimulated by
> > >  Western aid and investment; and second, the right to freedom of 
> thought and
> > >  religious practice.
> > >  This is not as far-fetched as it sounds:  the potential is there for
> > >  massive public support in the
> > >  Middle East.
> > >
> > >  Henry
> > >   >>
> > >_______________________________________________
> > >New-Poetry mailing list
> > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > ********************************************************
> > HG afloat:  www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html
> > www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark
> >     "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
********************************************************
HG afloat:  www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html
www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark
    "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam





From paul.lake  Tue Sep 18 02:58:30 2001
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 01:58:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] They can't see
Message-ID: <B7CC5AC5.1C51%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Dear Christopher, This is a fair criticism:

"But the Milne article wasn't anti-American. It was addressing a key
problem:
that US culture cannot bear much self-criticism and demands, of others,
unconditional love."


In my recent posts, I was reacting to the stridency and bullying tone of the
posters as much as to the article itself.  However, I don't think it's quite
true to say that the US can't bear much self-criticism.  With our free
press, the internet, and diverse political and cultural groups, we undergo a
daily self-examination--far more so than that of the cultures of the suicide
bombers. This very list--which is normally devoted to poetry--has offered a
variety of perspectives, in an open and sometimes heated debate.

And since this is a poetry list, this will be my last post on the subject.

My final word is this: after World War I, Germany and Hitler felt that
they'd been dealt with unfairly by the countries united against them, in
constructing the armistice.  That doesn't excuse Hitler's murderous and
racist ideology or the Holocaust.  Let's not let our respect for other
cultures and their perspectives blind us to the fact that, for instance, the
Taliban and extremist Islamist culture in general is enormously hostile to
women. The airline hijackers tied women's arms behind their backs and slit
their throats.  In Afghanistan, women are stoned to death for being seen in
public.  It is perhaps notable that in the brief article I posted, the brave
young extremist stood up and said "I will kill you" to a middle-aged
American woman, whose mild comments he'd disagreed with.  In our
self-criticism, let's not be blind to the sins of others.

In speaking out, I wanted to encourage others not to be bullied, but to
speak their own consciences. Now back to poetry.


Paul Lake 




From CobbCoStudioArts  Tue Sep 18 15:12:21 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:12:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [psyche-arts] They can't see why they are hated
Message-ID: <20010918191221.36FE42755@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From alphavil  Tue Sep 18 15:15:28 2001
From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:15:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] They can't see why
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010918131301.00a9e190@postoffice.brown.edu> <4.3.2.7.2.20010918143325.00a81330@postoffice.brown.edu>
Message-ID: <3BA79D4F.77A3676D@ix.netcom.com>

I've been asked this question a number times in recent days. Frankly, the
historical record is long and the money buggaboo especially oil and the security
projections required to protect that interest drive foreign policy. You might
personally begin with Achnacarry(sic?) because it will give you some way of
understanding why national boundaries are what they are in the Middle east. Then
there is the whole question the culture of consumption which drives corporate
policy but which they also had a huge hand in implementing.

For example, the concerted efforts on the part of the construction, auto industry
and later the airlines (ironic) to scuttle the public transportation system, e.g.
te Los Angeles bus system, and make the U.S. dependent on foreign oil could not
only be brought to light by marginalized historians for the edification of ad
hominem types as myself, but might become a focus of a campaign by the mass media.
Oh, sorry the mass media is controlled or leveraged or partally owned through stock
options (ironic) by the oil and energy industries. There's a limitation.

There's a million avenues. But as far as military action I'm reminded of Smedley
Butler's book War Is A Racket. In it he gives a series of preconditions for going
to war. Among them 2 stand out:

1) Conflict is not voted on not by Congress or unilaterally intiated by the
executive, but is only resolved if it wins a majority in a vote among the fighting
men themselves. No senior officers allowed. Just the grunts, the sergaents,
lieutenenants and field majors. Since Butler was a Major General in The Marine
Corps and the only man in the history of this country to win 2 Medals of Honor, he
knew that emotions often ran high after an incident. He also recognized a press
that whipped up war hysteria for the benefit of industry. So he also, recommended a
90 cooling off period.

2) His second major proposition was that during the duration of the conflict, no
one involved in the war effort, not the preisdent, not the Secretary of War, not
banker's loaning money to the war effort, not the military brass, no one in the
defense industry from CEO's down, could make more in salary that the meanest
private in the trenches. And all their personal assets and investments would be
frozen. No profiteering.

Koppell doesn't talk much about Butler. Wonder why? Was that ad hominem enough for
you, Henry. And sorry; what I have taken the time to learn and know does make a big
difference, no matter how much I offend your middle class so-called values which
urgently require your continued ignorance.   CP

Henry Gould wrote:

> & I respectfully submit, Carlo, that your years or decades of "covering" US
> international realpolitik
> & war crimes are not in themselves an argument, or a justification of the
> particular perspective on
> recent events that you present.  You & Joe are right to urge people to lift
> the veil on the historical
> particulars that led up to where we are.  I just don't happen to agree with
> your demonized portrayal
> of US policy.  To you, that is just ignorance.  That's the end of that
> debate.
>
> Then - to change the subject slightly - what would YOU suggest the US and
> the West do, right now, in response to a concerted, unfinished terrorist
> jihad campaign against civilian mass targets?
>
> Henry
>
> At 01:58 PM 9/18/01 -0400, you wrote:
> >Henry,
> >
> >I'll pubically admit this. I love you, buddy. But you don't know anything
> >about
> >this topic, or much else as regards U.S. policy and refuse to learn.
> >Whatever my
> >position or Joe's, we have spent decades in the trenches. At one point for
> >3 years
> >we did a weekly television show, an hour long, 110 hours in all, providing
> >alternative news coverage. We had permission from 77 publications to use their
> >material as well as access to primary documentation. Joe and I personally read
> >over 200 articles a month. So when I post a 500 word email on the FMLN,
> >the DIA,
> >WACL or whatever, its not ad hominem. Your head in the sand until you hear a
> >vibration is ad hominem. And that goes for a lot of the other punks on these
> >lists.
> >
> >And we've been involved in a lot more which modesty and time prevents me from
> >talking about. I resent the ad hominem comments from the lazy and
> >gullible. Taping
> >actions for CISPES and seeing the slaughter in El Salvador put me over the
> >hump.
> >I'm oughta patience with you xenophobic hicks.CP
> >
> >Henry Gould wrote:
> >
> > > After a while it seems to get pointless debating with you and
> > > Carlo.  You're so busy spewing
> > > patronizing ad hominems as a means of shoring up your own arguments.  No
> > > one has
> > > suggested that there is not a heavy & heavy-handed US presence in the
> > > Middle East.  I have been
> > > talking about a reconsideration of that presence, spearheaded by a
> > > non-governmental secular-
> > > religious movement, which would project a vision of religious tolerance
> > > combined with civil
> > > liberties and economic development.  What you & Carlo want to do, however,
> > > is drum into
> > > our heads that US policy is to blame for islamic terrorism.  I think this
> > > is a very simplistic
> > > viewpoint.
> > >
> > > Henry
> > >
> > > At 12:54 PM 9/18/01 -0400, you wrote:
> > > >As usual, Henry, when you stray outside of esoteric poetry you flounder.
> > > >It's best to consider the facts, however inconvenient they are.  For
> > example,
> > > >we're over there.  We have fed the fire of fundamentalism with our
> > projection
> > > >of military and political force, and our willingness to use that force,
> > > >particularly the military.  We're not being attacked for our christian
> > > >beliefs or our consumer-ridden decadence.  If we did not maintain our
> > > >presence in other parts of the world that we wish to exploit, there would
> > > >have been no attack on the WTC, or the Pentagon.  I suppose it's easier to
> > > >avoid looking at the history of the West, particularly the of the US, and
> > > >imagine that this "Jihad" sprang magically from Zeus' foreskin.  Your
> > notion
> > > >of harmony between the states of the Muslim world is a pipe dream, and
> > has no
> > > >historical basis.  There is a huge cultural divide between various Arab
> > > >cultures and your western notion of "human rights."  As a matter of
> > fact --
> > > >not public rhetoric, mind you -- the US is not often concerned with human
> > > >rights when it comes to other nations.*  I'm not arguing for the
> > superiority
> > > >of either side of the abyss, but I don't think that the US or anyone
> > else has
> > > >the right to impose their values on cultures that have survived for
> > > >centuries, just as I don't believe those cultures have the right to impose
> > > >their values on us.  I do think we need to understand how we got into this
> > > >mess, if only as a prelude for getting out of it.  I'm not
> > optimistic.  You
> > > >speak of the West's need to "counter."  By this I assume you're
> > referring to
> > > >military action without the niceties of meaningful judicial
> > process.  Do you
> > > >know what will ensue, Henry?  More of the same.  Look at history, it's
> > choked
> > > >with examples that validate this conclusion.  The issue, as always, is a
> > > >political veneer covering unbridled greed.  Oil.  Real estate.  Weapons.
> > > >This is why the political will necessary to extract US meddling and
> > > >domination is lacking, and this is why the river of innocent blood with
> > > >deepen and widen  -- nothing unusual except that this time, some of the
> > > >innocent blood will flow in this country.
> > > >
> > > >Before one jumps to accept the prevailing blather, one should question why
> > > >young men and women are willing to sacrifice their lives in the
> > furtherance
> > > >of their beliefs.  Whatever else one thinks of them, they are
> > committed, and
> > > >it's this level of commitment that is scaring all of us.  It's no good
> > > >referring to them as deranged robots brainwashed by some charismatic
> > zealot
> > > >to do his unbending will, this isn't Jonestown.  We're in this mess
> > because
> > > >as a country, we blindly stood by while our country committed (and still
> > > >commits) unspeakable acts, immersed as we are in the orgy of
> > consumerism that
> > > >grips us.  Because we lack either the necessary moral strength or the
> > > >political will, we're going to have to continue doing despicable
> > things, and
> > > >have despicable things done to us.  But as Thomas Pynchon notes, we don't
> > > >have to bullshit ourselves as to what's required from the rest of the
> > world
> > > >in order for the West to live so high on the hog.  So yes, Henry,
> > given the
> > > >real politic of economic hegemony, the attack on the WTC, or something
> > like
> > > >it, was inevitable, as those who run this country knew full well,
> > which you
> > > >would realize if you would only remember all the times that our
> > leaders have
> > > >warned us that it was a question of 'when', not 'if'.
> > > >
> > > >joe brennan
> > > >
> > > >*"We have about 50% of the world's wealth, but only 6.5% of its
> > population...
> > > >In this situation, we cannot fail to be the object of envy and resentment.
> > > >Our real task in this coming period is to devise a pattern of
> > relationships
> > > >which will permit us to maintain this position of disparity without
> > detriment
> > > >to our national security. To do this, we will need to dispense with all
> > > >sentimentality and day-dreaming; and our attention will have to be
> > > >concentrated everywhere on our immediate national objectives. We need not
> > > >deceive ourselves that we can afford today the luxury of altruism and
> > > >world-benefaction.... We should cease to talk about vague and - for
> > the Far
> > > >East - unrealistic objectives such as human rights, the raising of the
> > living
> > > >standards, and democratization. The day is not far off  when we are
> > going to
> > > >have to deal in straight power concepts. The less we are then hampered by
> > > >idealistic slogans, the better."
> > > >
> > > >Geroge Kenan,
> > > >Chief Planner US State Department
> > > >February 24, 1948
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >In a message dated 09/18/2001 8:36:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> > > >Henry_Gould at brown.edu writes:
> > > >
> > > ><< Carlo & Joe Brennan's arguments boil down to:  The terrorism is
> > inevitable
> > > >  considering
> > > >  the facts of US imperialism, and in some sense deserved.
> > > >
> > > >  It's more complicated than that, fellas.  1. Jihad terrorism is
> > CHOOSING a
> > > >  policy of aggression
> > > >  which the governments of the West have NO CHOICE but to counter.  2.
> > Jihad
> > > >  terrorism is
> > > >  NOT universally approved in Islamic nations - to suggest that it is, is
> > > >  merely another
> > > >  western stereotype of the Middle East.  3. The fundamentalist movement
> > > >  which DOES
> > > >  support jihad war is no more interested in civil liberties and human
> > rights
> > > >  than the most
> > > >  undemocratic Western-supported regimes in the region.  Cultural
> > > >  self-determination
> > > >  does not include the right to massacre thousands of innocent people.  To
> > > >  say this,
> > > >  does not mean one tacitly approves civilian oppression & deaths
> > instigated
> > > >  by the West.
> > > >
> > > >  What peacemakers might look for is a middle path between autocratic
> > regimes
> > > >  on both sides.
> > > >  This would have to involve a working alliance of Muslims, Jews,
> > Christians
> > > >  & "secularists" (for
> > > >  lack of a better term).  The goal would be a civil society
> > guaranteed by at
> > > >  least 2 primary civil
> > > >  liberties:  first, the right to the pursuit of happiness - ie., an
> > > >  anti-poverty program, stimulated by
> > > >  Western aid and investment; and second, the right to freedom of
> > thought and
> > > >  religious practice.
> > > >  This is not as far-fetched as it sounds:  the potential is there for
> > > >  massive public support in the
> > > >  Middle East.
> > > >
> > > >  Henry
> > > >   >>
> > > >_______________________________________________
> > > >New-Poetry mailing list
> > > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > > ********************************************************
> > > HG afloat:  www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html
> > > www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark
> > >     "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > New-Poetry mailing list
> > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> ********************************************************
> HG afloat:  www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html
> www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark
>     "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From CobbCoStudioArts  Tue Sep 18 15:21:39 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:21:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE:  Online poetry library
Message-ID: <20010918192140.3018836F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From TerryP17  Tue Sep 18 15:25:45 2001
From: TerryP17 (TerryP17 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:25:45 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: SF
Message-ID: <162.1162c13.28d8f9ba@aol.com>

<<"Just out"?! Jack Foley gave me a copy 2 years ago. He was visiting here in
DC then. As for pure poetic energy San Francisco sounds like paradise
compared to the myopic whimperings of DC poetics, if you can grace the
lifeless blither here with the term poetic. CP>>

The essay was out a couple of years ago. The book, to which I was referring if you would care to read the post, not just part of it, edited by Jack Foley, is "just out," dated 2001. Myopic whimperings? Lifeless blither? Care to back these observations up?

--TLP





From BobGrumman  Tue Sep 18 15:30:44 2001
From: BobGrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 15:30:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] SF
References: <Pine.NEB.4.33.0109180940360.1890-100000@panix2.panix.com>
Message-ID: <3BA7A0E4.309C@nut-n-but.net>

Jordan Davis wrote:
> 
> Anybody out there read Gioia's screed? Does he mention Duncan, Spicer,
> Welch, Snyder, Whalen, et al?
> 
> Jordan

I'm pretty sure he does--those guys are all long-established.

                                                      --Bob G.




From CobbCoStudioArts  Tue Sep 18 15:51:36 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:51:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] They can't see why
Message-ID: <20010918195136.8934936FA@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From TerryP17  Tue Sep 18 16:16:47 2001
From: TerryP17 (TerryP17 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:16:47 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: SF
Message-ID: <ad.10853341.28d905b0@aol.com>

Jordan,

Thanks for the reply. I'll endeavor to respond in a brief period of time.

<<I've read the essay in question, and you're right, it's not a
screed - it's a snooze. (Thanks to David G for the pointer to
danagioia.net - lots of pictures!)>>

Matter of opinion, I suppose--Gioia haters will always find something to criticize, Gioia lovers will quickly come to the defense. I am actually neutral on this essay for reasons which will become clear. Dana's stuff is always well written and well thought out in my opinion. It's just that his train of thought is not attractive to some and thus invites attack.

<<Connoisseurs of poignantly perverse
revisionism will dig Dana G's appropriations, both of Allen Ginsberg
(declared a California writer) and of William Carlos Williams' arguments
against anglocentric American writing, which Dana G recasts as the
hegemony of the New York-intellectual (ahem! code phrase much?).>>

Actually, I did duly notice this and I dug it but not for the reason you might think, particularly the Ginsberg grab--very cool. Dana is merely doing something my academic friends always do--selective literary history. There is a method in it. What you are seeing here, I think, is a writer, formerly of New York, who is feeling isolated out in his original home turf in CA. The New York intelligentsia, such as they are, with a critical mass of critics, writers, and publishers, do have a lock on public discourse and reputation-making at a national level. It invites envy from those who don't live there or even those who used to live there. It's a natural emotion, since this kind of hegemony doesn't seem fair. Baseball lovers (except New Yorkers) love to hate the Yankees since they win a seemingly disproportional number of World Series. But there you have it. You can complain, but the Yanks will still keep putting trophies in the case. One way of getting past this is to reconstruct, or propose to reconstruct, a c
urrent irritating reality.

<<Not to put too fine a point on it, but to read a call to write in
macaronic rhymed verse the true poetry of California, in this of all
months, well, I reach for my Dead Kennedys tape. Not that I have anything
against macaronic rhymed verse - see Kenneth Koch's book On the Edge, and
his poems Cherche Midi (in Days and Nights) or Something (an early version
of which appeared in Po&sie).>>

Macaronic? As in Macaroni fashions? New one on me. As for music, I'll take Beethoven over the Dead Kennedys, or if that's too hopelessly out of it, how about Samuel Barber over John Cage? In any event, follow along. What we are dealing with here is canon-making, pure and simple. Dana proposes to replace one "canon" with another. I am not really sure that the argument here is effective, but this is what is going on.

<<No, it's not the hateful canard that there are essential qualities of
place to be expressed, it's the trenchant ignorance that gets to
me. While I enjoyed *something* about the snippet of The Man with the
Hoe, I hope I'm not the only one skeptical about the assertions made here
- that it "was and remains the quintessential Bay Area poem." He cites
Rexroth on the SF Renaissance but has nothing beyond a catalogue of names
(and some faint praise for Duncan) - a catalogue that omits Spicer,
Whalen, and Welch, not to speak of Kyger or anybody else in Bolinas, at SF
State, and let's not even *think* about language poetry, which he brackets
with a semi-accurate 'albeit'.>>

Hateful canard? Trenchant ignorance? Passions are really high on this board today. There ARE essential qualities of place to be expressed. I still have posted on ECR's website a poem by Jared Carter which at least some people liked--a poem whose central persona is driven by Midwestern moral values. The attitudes expressed in this poem would be laughable in NYC or LA for example, viewed as "hopelessly naive" I believe the phrase would be. It is clearly a poem whose understanding derives from place and time. It is distinctly regional. "The Man with the Hoe" WAS a quintessential Bay Area poem. IS that still true? I don't know. I suspect not. Because the Bay Area is rather different now from what it was then. I am not sure Dana is going to get a lot of people to agree with this and am not sure that it is a good argument. One thing I can agree to, though, as I travel the countryside listening to the same syndicated programs produced by the mega-media conglomerates on once quirkily regional radio stations, is that
 we ARE gradually losing our regional cultures, and I mourn this, although I am not sure that mourning it is going to stop it from happening. Same goes for this argument.

Re: the lists of writers--Dana has his, his opponents (in the book) have theirs, and after reading this whole volume it sometimes seems like a pissing contest. Well here's MY names, hah! Well here's MY names, so there! Etc. To me, catalogues of names don't particularly prove anything.

<<To try to see it from his perspective and to venture to credit him with
knowledge of what he's omitted, perhaps these other writers don't
merit mention in a survey of San Francisco letters because they don't seek
the same national audience Dana G seeks - in other words, they're too
local, too minor. Before I continue with this line of argument - am I
reading him correctly? The only literature worth discussing is the
literature that has attracted popular attention?>>

Actually, you are perhaps close, but no cigar. As I indicated earlier, Dana is making an argument for re-imagining the Bay Area canon if there is a Bay Area canon. Is it a good argument? I don't think it's convincing, but it's interesting. Is Dana saying that only popular literature is worth discussing? No, I think he's indicating that at one time, in his view, "artistic" literature and "popular" literature could have been one and the same and he wants that to happen again. I would like to agree with that but don't think it's necessarily true or ever was, save selectively. 

I think this essay was a launch on an interesting idea--one that is not fully developed in the essay, as nicely-written and readable as it is. The New Formalists, who are increasingly falling into heresy and perdition in their work, were and are seeking to rewrite literary history, to elevate to importance writers from the early to mid 20th century that form a continuity with their own work. To do so, one must end up writing a selective literary history that selects out, in a Darwinian sense, the figurative bastards in the royal line leaving the kingdom only to legitimate successors. Opposing camps have been doing the same all along. It's a battle that neither you nor I are going to be able to conclude in a satisfactory matter anytime soon. 

--Terry







From JforJames  Tue Sep 18 16:20:11 2001
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:20:11 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Open Question
Message-ID: <159.12fc4c4.28d9067b@aol.com>

Are many people convinced or won over by your position
when you call them know-nothings 
while suggesting they are either hopelessly brainwashed
or so uninformed (compared to you) 
they shall never be capable of catching on?
If so, I'm surprised the telemarketers haven't adopted
this persuasive approach.
IFinnegan 



From Rsgwynn1  Tue Sep 18 16:25:14 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:25:14 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: SF
Message-ID: <d8.c256a5d.28d907aa@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/18/01 12:58:31 PM Central Daylight Time, 
jdavis at panix.com writes:


> Not to put too fine a point on it, but to read a call to write in
> macaronic rhymed verse the true poetry of California, in this of all
> months, well, I reach for my Dead Kennedys tape. 

You ask if you're reading Gioia correctly.  I suspect you're not reading him 
at all.  Where in the article does this appear?  And what is "macaronic 
rhymed verse"?  Do you mean "macronic verse"--poetry that incorporates words 
and phrases from a second language?
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From alphavil  Tue Sep 18 16:24:21 2001
From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:24:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] They can't see why
References: <20010918195136.8934936FA@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <3BA7AD75.F51CB749@ix.netcom.com>

As opposed to your trenchant analysis--eh, Bob. You are the best advertisement for the efficacy of our position. CP



"Robert R.Cobb" wrote:

> Henry,
>
> I agree with you regarding the motives that Joe and Carlo have been propounding to excuse and justify terrorists' actions against the United States.  It is not only "a very simplistic viewpoint," it is also inaccurate and biased.  It is pointless to continue this debate.
>
> Bob Cobb
>
> ... US policy is to blame for islamic terrorism.  I think this
> >is a very simplistic
> >viewpoint.
>
> --- Henry Gould <Henry_Gould at brown.edu>
> > wrote:
> >After a while it seems to get pointless debating with you and
> >Carlo.  You're so busy spewing
> >patronizing ad hominems as a means of shoring up your own arguments.  No
> >one has
> >suggested that there is not a heavy & heavy-handed US presence in the
> >Middle East.  I have been
> >talking about a reconsideration of that presence, spearheaded by a
> >non-governmental secular-
> >religious movement, which would project a vision of religious tolerance
> >combined with civil
> >liberties and economic development.  What you & Carlo want to do, however,
> >is drum into
> >our heads that US policy is to blame for islamic terrorism.  I think this
> >is a very simplistic
> >viewpoint.
> >
> >Henry
> >
> >
> >At 12:54 PM 9/18/01 -0400, you wrote:
> >>As usual, Henry, when you stray outside of esoteric poetry you flounder.
> >>It's best to consider the facts, however inconvenient they are.  For example,
> >>we're over there.  We have fed the fire of fundamentalism with our projection
> >>of military and political force, and our willingness to use that force,
> >>particularly the military.  We're not being attacked for our christian
> >>beliefs or our consumer-ridden decadence.  If we did not maintain our
> >>presence in other parts of the world that we wish to exploit, there would
> >>have been no attack on the WTC, or the Pentagon.  I suppose it's easier to
> >>avoid looking at the history of the West, particularly the of the US, and
> >>imagine that this "Jihad" sprang magically from Zeus' foreskin.  Your notion
> >>of harmony between the states of the Muslim world is a pipe dream, and has no
> >>historical basis.  There is a huge cultural divide between various Arab
> >>cultures and your western notion of "human rights."  As a matter of fact --
> >>not public rhetoric, mind you -- the US is not often concerned with human
> >>rights when it comes to other nations.*  I'm not arguing for the superiority
> >>of either side of the abyss, but I don't think that the US or anyone else has
> >>the right to impose their values on cultures that have survived for
> >>centuries, just as I don't believe those cultures have the right to impose
> >>their values on us.  I do think we need to understand how we got into this
> >>mess, if only as a prelude for getting out of it.  I'm not optimistic.  You
> >>speak of the West's need to "counter."  By this I assume you're referring to
> >>military action without the niceties of meaningful judicial process.  Do you
> >>know what will ensue, Henry?  More of the same.  Look at history, it's choked
> >>with examples that validate this conclusion.  The issue, as always, is a
> >>political veneer covering unbridled greed.  Oil.  Real estate.  Weapons.
> >>This is why the political will necessary to extract US meddling and
> >>domination is lacking, and this is why the river of innocent blood with
> >>deepen and widen  -- nothing unusual except that this time, some of the
> >>innocent blood will flow in this country.
> >>
> >>Before one jumps to accept the prevailing blather, one should question why
> >>young men and women are willing to sacrifice their lives in the furtherance
> >>of their beliefs.  Whatever else one thinks of them, they are committed, and
> >>it's this level of commitment that is scaring all of us.  It's no good
> >>referring to them as deranged robots brainwashed by some charismatic zealot
> >>to do his unbending will, this isn't Jonestown.  We're in this mess because
> >>as a country, we blindly stood by while our country committed (and still
> >>commits) unspeakable acts, immersed as we are in the orgy of consumerism that
> >>grips us.  Because we lack either the necessary moral strength or the
> >>political will, we're going to have to continue doing despicable things, and
> >>have despicable things done to us.  But as Thomas Pynchon notes, we don't
> >>have to bullshit ourselves as to what's required from the rest of the world
> >>in order for the West to live so high on the hog.  So yes, Henry, given the
> >>real politic of economic hegemony, the attack on the WTC, or something like
> >>it, was inevitable, as those who run this country knew full well, which you
> >>would realize if you would only remember all the times that our leaders have
> >>warned us that it was a question of 'when', not 'if'.
> >>
> >>joe brennan
> >>
> >>*"We have about 50% of the world's wealth, but only 6.5% of its population...
> >>In this situation, we cannot fail to be the object of envy and resentment.
> >>Our real task in this coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships
> >>which will permit us to maintain this position of disparity without detriment
> >>to our national security. To do this, we will need to dispense with all
> >>sentimentality and day-dreaming; and our attention will have to be
> >>concentrated everywhere on our immediate national objectives. We need not
> >>deceive ourselves that we can afford today the luxury of altruism and
> >>world-benefaction.... We should cease to talk about vague and - for the Far
> >>East - unrealistic objectives such as human rights, the raising of the living
> >>standards, and democratization. The day is not far off  when we are going to
> >>have to deal in straight power concepts. The less we are then hampered by
> >>idealistic slogans, the better."
> >>
> >>Geroge Kenan,
> >>Chief Planner US State Department
> >>February 24, 1948
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>In a message dated 09/18/2001 8:36:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> >>Henry_Gould at brown.edu writes:
> >>
> >><< Carlo & Joe Brennan's arguments boil down to:  The terrorism is inevitable
> >>  considering
> >>  the facts of US imperialism, and in some sense deserved.
> >>
> >>  It's more complicated than that, fellas.  1. Jihad terrorism is CHOOSING a
> >>  policy of aggression
> >>  which the governments of the West have NO CHOICE but to counter.  2. Jihad
> >>  terrorism is
> >>  NOT universally approved in Islamic nations - to suggest that it is, is
> >>  merely another
> >>  western stereotype of the Middle East.  3. The fundamentalist movement
> >>  which DOES
> >>  support jihad war is no more interested in civil liberties and human rights
> >>  than the most
> >>  undemocratic Western-supported regimes in the region.  Cultural
> >>  self-determination
> >>  does not include the right to massacre thousands of innocent people.  To
> >>  say this,
> >>  does not mean one tacitly approves civilian oppression & deaths instigated
> >>  by the West.
> >>
> >>  What peacemakers might look for is a middle path between autocratic regimes
> >>  on both sides.
> >>  This would have to involve a working alliance of Muslims, Jews, Christians
> >>  & "secularists" (for
> >>  lack of a better term).  The goal would be a civil society guaranteed by at
> >>  least 2 primary civil
> >>  liberties:  first, the right to the pursuit of happiness - ie., an
> >>  anti-poverty program, stimulated by
> >>  Western aid and investment; and second, the right to freedom of thought and
> >>  religious practice.
> >>  This is not as far-fetched as it sounds:  the potential is there for
> >>  massive public support in the
> >>  Middle East.
> >>
> >>  Henry
> >>   >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>New-Poetry mailing list
> >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >********************************************************
> >HG afloat:  www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html
> >www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark
> >    "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> ==
> Poetry Catamaran
>
> "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"
>
> Robert R. Cobb
> AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
> http://rrcobb.tripod.com
>
> _____________________________________________________________
> -----
> Check out my portfolio at www.talentx.com
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From CobbCoStudioArts  Tue Sep 18 16:37:28 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:37:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] They can't see why
Message-ID: <20010918203728.8705F36F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From alphavil  Tue Sep 18 16:43:31 2001
From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:43:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: SF
References: <162.1162c13.28d8f9ba@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3BA7B1F3.CAF8C901@ix.netcom.com>

Terry, sweetie. I've got the "book" right here. And I read it as soon as Jack gave it to me. Second printing?

"Whimpering, soporific drivel'? I thought that's what the Washington School called itself. You in particular are a walking case study in the tedium and boredom of Washington's poetry and everything else, esp. the paucity of jazz. The proof is in the puddin'
as they say. If it ain't obvious to you, obviously you are part of the problem because it is obvious to every body else without any acumen.

But let's you and I spark Washington, the way Goia (sic) and Foley sparked San Fran. A venue? Writer's Center? DAR? National Press Building? National Association of Manufacturers? The Swiss Embassy?

Who would you compare to Rexroth here? Duncan here? Spicer here? The last one's easy. Rick Peabody is doing a book on him. Where's North Beach here? P Street beach? Since Phil Ochs hanged himself near Dupont Circle when have we had one oracular wild man
stalking the bars? CP

TerryP17 at aol.com wrote:

> <<"Just out"?! Jack Foley gave me a copy 2 years ago. He was visiting here in
> DC then. As for pure poetic energy San Francisco sounds like paradise
> compared to the myopic whimperings of DC poetics, if you can grace the
> lifeless blither here with the term poetic. CP>>
>
> The essay was out a couple of years ago. The book, to which I was referring if you would care to read the post, not just part of it, edited by Jack Foley, is "just out," dated 2001. Myopic whimperings? Lifeless blither? Care to back these observations up?
>
> --TLP
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From moira_russell  Tue Sep 18 16:46:32 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 12:46:32 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: SF
Message-ID: <F36EGi4RC9xRGg3bHlw00001dae@hotmail.com>

Terry wrote:

>As I indicated earlier, Dana is making an argument for re-imagining the Bay 
>Area canon if there is a Bay Area canon. Is it a good argument? I don't 
>think it's convincing, but it's interesting. Is Dana saying that only 
>popular literature is worth discussing? No, I think he's indicating that at 
>one time, in his view, "artistic" literature and "popular" literature could 
>have been one and the same and he wants that to happen again.

Isn't this also a central theme of "Can Poetry Matter?"  It seems to be a 
real pressing concern for Gioia.  Certainly the theme of poets feeling 
isolated from society and wondering how much "weight" poetry may have in 
present-day life has come up here before.

I also scent a doctoral thesis coming up here:

Regional Schools and Their Effect upon New Formalism
or possibly
New Formalism and Its Effect Upon Regional Schools
/joke/

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

_________________________________________________________________
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From jdavis  Tue Sep 18 16:52:53 2001
From: jdavis (Jordan Davis)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:52:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] I don't have a Dead Kennedys tape
In-Reply-To: <ad.10853341.28d905b0@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.33.0109181646000.23065-100000@panix2.panix.com>

Hi Terry - I fibbed, I don't have a Dead Kennedys tape (but I know of one
called 'California Uber Alles'). Also, I seem to have gone into some kind
of toxic shock when I read the following in the Gioia essay:

These are not abstract issues to California writers. Any serious literary
artist in California, at least one writing in English, feels the competing
claims of language and experience. However deeply immersed in the classics
of English, the writer cannot help noting how this rich and various
literary heritage stands at one remove from the physical reality of the
West. Our seasons, climate, landscape, wildlife, and history are alien to
the worldviews of both England and New England. The world looks and feels
different in California from the way it does in either York or New Yorknot
only the natural landscape but also the urban one. California also sounds
different. Spanish, not French, colors our regional accent. The deepest
European roots are Latin and Catholic, not Anglo-Saxon and Puritan. Asia
and Latin America are omnipresent influences. There is no use listening
for a nightingale among the scrub oaks and chaparral. Our challenge is not
only to find the right words to describe our new and complex experience
but also to discover the right images, myths, concepts, and characters.
For us, this is an essential task, and one impossible to have done
elsewhere. We must describe a reality that has never been fully captured
in English. The earlier traditions of English only partially clarify what
it is we might say. California literature is our conversation between the
past and present out of which we articulate ourselves.

---

There's a lot of silly stuff in there (as there inevitably will be when
the as-yet-uncaptured reality of California is at stake), but the call to
macaronic verse (or as Sam Gwynn calls it, macronic verse -- but Sam,
you're in the minority there) is nowhere to be found. Oops.

Terry, while I'm familiar with the musical "Damn Yankees," I really do
think this is not the week for New York-bashing. And I was appalled by the
almost uniformly non-goyische list of Yankees Dana G. brought forth --

all best,
Jordan




From moira_russell  Tue Sep 18 17:01:13 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:01:13 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: SF
Message-ID: <F790lbhsKd6QR7j1HaK00001d96@hotmail.com>

>Do you mean "macronic verse"--poetry that incorporates words
>and phrases from a second language?

Perhaps the intended word was Mikronic, as in the Islands.  Or a creative 
respelling of "moronic."

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA


_________________________________________________________________
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From alphavil  Tue Sep 18 17:04:30 2001
From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:04:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: SF
References: <162.1162c13.28d8f9ba@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3BA7B6DE.9AE3D0D6@ix.netcom.com>

K-Mart, Terry. Anthony Hecht is a "Major" poet here. Roland Flint, god rest his soul, was "nationally" known. Reed Whittemore is our James Dickey. John Pauker, a lovely man, was our internationalist and, of course, USIA. I've met a number of minor literary
figures from Eastern Europe who upon accepting VOA and USIA money became bitter disappointed poetic nobodies here.

What groundbreaking stuff did Paul Lawson's press introduce? Bill Claire's? Wordworks? Wordwrights? Peabody's Gargoyle actually stands out among the others, but isn't a blip out side the Beltway as the cliche goes. Like many of us, I've read quite a few books
on the magazines and presses that influenced 20th American poetry since World War II. While I was reading the recent biography on Jack Spicer it dawned on me that I had 1000's of pages of small press hisory under my belt, and could not remember an instance
when a Washington mag was cited outside of Rod Smith's Ariel and that was incentuous Langpo agitprop.

Barry Alpert is here but he didn't do VORT from here, and the poets he chose to interview nearly all had at least a passing connection to the West Coast.

The only way Pound would have hung here was if you put him in a straight jacket. Oh, that's right....

And you stiffs ain't making it any better. CP

TerryP17 at aol.com wrote:

> <<"Just out"?! Jack Foley gave me a copy 2 years ago. He was visiting here in
> DC then. As for pure poetic energy San Francisco sounds like paradise
> compared to the myopic whimperings of DC poetics, if you can grace the
> lifeless blither here with the term poetic. CP>>
>
> The essay was out a couple of years ago. The book, to which I was referring if you would care to read the post, not just part of it, edited by Jack Foley, is "just out," dated 2001. Myopic whimperings? Lifeless blither? Care to back these observations up?
>
> --TLP
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From alphavil  Tue Sep 18 17:08:07 2001
From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:08:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] They can't see why
References: <20010918203728.8705F36F9@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <3BA7B7B7.2D0888BA@ix.netcom.com>

Again trenchant. CP

"Robert R.Cobb" wrote:

> CP,
>
> I highly doubt this conclusion, but more power to you.
>
> Robert
>
> --- "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>
> > wrote:
> >As opposed to your trenchant analysis--eh, Bob. You are the best advertisement for the efficacy of our position. CP
> >
> >
> >
> >"Robert R.Cobb" wrote:
> >
> >> Henry,
> >>
> >> I agree with you regarding the motives that Joe and Carlo have been propounding to excuse and justify terrorists' actions against the United States.  It is not only "a very simplistic viewpoint," it is also inaccurate and biased.  It is pointless to continue this debate.
> >>
> >> Bob Cobb
> >>
> >> ... US policy is to blame for islamic terrorism.  I think this
> >> >is a very simplistic
> >> >viewpoint.
> >>
> >> --- Henry Gould <Henry_Gould at brown.edu>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >After a while it seems to get pointless debating with you and
> >> >Carlo.  You're so busy spewing
> >> >patronizing ad hominems as a means of shoring up your own arguments.  No
> >> >one has
> >> >suggested that there is not a heavy & heavy-handed US presence in the
> >> >Middle East.  I have been
> >> >talking about a reconsideration of that presence, spearheaded by a
> >> >non-governmental secular-
> >> >religious movement, which would project a vision of religious tolerance
> >> >combined with civil
> >> >liberties and economic development.  What you & Carlo want to do, however,
> >> >is drum into
> >> >our heads that US policy is to blame for islamic terrorism.  I think this
> >> >is a very simplistic
> >> >viewpoint.
> >> >
> >> >Henry
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >At 12:54 PM 9/18/01 -0400, you wrote:
> >> >>As usual, Henry, when you stray outside of esoteric poetry you flounder.
> >> >>It's best to consider the facts, however inconvenient they are.  For example,
> >> >>we're over there.  We have fed the fire of fundamentalism with our projection
> >> >>of military and political force, and our willingness to use that force,
> >> >>particularly the military.  We're not being attacked for our christian
> >> >>beliefs or our consumer-ridden decadence.  If we did not maintain our
> >> >>presence in other parts of the world that we wish to exploit, there would
> >> >>have been no attack on the WTC, or the Pentagon.  I suppose it's easier to
> >> >>avoid looking at the history of the West, particularly the of the US, and
> >> >>imagine that this "Jihad" sprang magically from Zeus' foreskin.  Your notion
> >> >>of harmony between the states of the Muslim world is a pipe dream, and has no
> >> >>historical basis.  There is a huge cultural divide between various Arab
> >> >>cultures and your western notion of "human rights."  As a matter of fact --
> >> >>not public rhetoric, mind you -- the US is not often concerned with human
> >> >>rights when it comes to other nations.*  I'm not arguing for the superiority
> >> >>of either side of the abyss, but I don't think that the US or anyone else has
> >> >>the right to impose their values on cultures that have survived for
> >> >>centuries, just as I don't believe those cultures have the right to impose
> >> >>their values on us.  I do think we need to understand how we got into this
> >> >>mess, if only as a prelude for getting out of it.  I'm not optimistic.  You
> >> >>speak of the West's need to "counter."  By this I assume you're referring to
> >> >>military action without the niceties of meaningful judicial process.  Do you
> >> >>know what will ensue, Henry?  More of the same.  Look at history, it's choked
> >> >>with examples that validate this conclusion.  The issue, as always, is a
> >> >>political veneer covering unbridled greed.  Oil.  Real estate.  Weapons.
> >> >>This is why the political will necessary to extract US meddling and
> >> >>domination is lacking, and this is why the river of innocent blood with
> >> >>deepen and widen  -- nothing unusual except that this time, some of the
> >> >>innocent blood will flow in this country.
> >> >>
> >> >>Before one jumps to accept the prevailing blather, one should question why
> >> >>young men and women are willing to sacrifice their lives in the furtherance
> >> >>of their beliefs.  Whatever else one thinks of them, they are committed, and
> >> >>it's this level of commitment that is scaring all of us.  It's no good
> >> >>referring to them as deranged robots brainwashed by some charismatic zealot
> >> >>to do his unbending will, this isn't Jonestown.  We're in this mess because
> >> >>as a country, we blindly stood by while our country committed (and still
> >> >>commits) unspeakable acts, immersed as we are in the orgy of consumerism that
> >> >>grips us.  Because we lack either the necessary moral strength or the
> >> >>political will, we're going to have to continue doing despicable things, and
> >> >>have despicable things done to us.  But as Thomas Pynchon notes, we don't
> >> >>have to bullshit ourselves as to what's required from the rest of the world
> >> >>in order for the West to live so high on the hog.  So yes, Henry, given the
> >> >>real politic of economic hegemony, the attack on the WTC, or something like
> >> >>it, was inevitable, as those who run this country knew full well, which you
> >> >>would realize if you would only remember all the times that our leaders have
> >> >>warned us that it was a question of 'when', not 'if'.
> >> >>
> >> >>joe brennan
> >> >>
> >> >>*"We have about 50% of the world's wealth, but only 6.5% of its population...
> >> >>In this situation, we cannot fail to be the object of envy and resentment.
> >> >>Our real task in this coming period is to devise a pattern of relationships
> >> >>which will permit us to maintain this position of disparity without detriment
> >> >>to our national security. To do this, we will need to dispense with all
> >> >>sentimentality and day-dreaming; and our attention will have to be
> >> >>concentrated everywhere on our immediate national objectives. We need not
> >> >>deceive ourselves that we can afford today the luxury of altruism and
> >> >>world-benefaction.... We should cease to talk about vague and - for the Far
> >> >>East - unrealistic objectives such as human rights, the raising of the living
> >> >>standards, and democratization. The day is not far off  when we are going to
> >> >>have to deal in straight power concepts. The less we are then hampered by
> >> >>idealistic slogans, the better."
> >> >>
> >> >>Geroge Kenan,
> >> >>Chief Planner US State Department
> >> >>February 24, 1948
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>In a message dated 09/18/2001 8:36:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> >> >>Henry_Gould at brown.edu writes:
> >> >>
> >> >><< Carlo & Joe Brennan's arguments boil down to:  The terrorism is inevitable
> >> >>  considering
> >> >>  the facts of US imperialism, and in some sense deserved.
> >> >>
> >> >>  It's more complicated than that, fellas.  1. Jihad terrorism is CHOOSING a
> >> >>  policy of aggression
> >> >>  which the governments of the West have NO CHOICE but to counter.  2. Jihad
> >> >>  terrorism is
> >> >>  NOT universally approved in Islamic nations - to suggest that it is, is
> >> >>  merely another
> >> >>  western stereotype of the Middle East.  3. The fundamentalist movement
> >> >>  which DOES
> >> >>  support jihad war is no more interested in civil liberties and human rights
> >> >>  than the most
> >> >>  undemocratic Western-supported regimes in the region.  Cultural
> >> >>  self-determination
> >> >>  does not include the right to massacre thousands of innocent people.  To
> >> >>  say this,
> >> >>  does not mean one tacitly approves civilian oppression & deaths instigated
> >> >>  by the West.
> >> >>
> >> >>  What peacemakers might look for is a middle path between autocratic regimes
> >> >>  on both sides.
> >> >>  This would have to involve a working alliance of Muslims, Jews, Christians
> >> >>  & "secularists" (for
> >> >>  lack of a better term).  The goal would be a civil society guaranteed by at
> >> >>  least 2 primary civil
> >> >>  liberties:  first, the right to the pursuit of happiness - ie., an
> >> >>  anti-poverty program, stimulated by
> >> >>  Western aid and investment; and second, the right to freedom of thought and
> >> >>  religious practice.
> >> >>  This is not as far-fetched as it sounds:  the potential is there for
> >> >>  massive public support in the
> >> >>  Middle East.
> >> >>
> >> >>  Henry
> >> >>   >>
> >> >>_______________________________________________
> >> >>New-Poetry mailing list
> >> >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >> >********************************************************
> >> >HG afloat:  www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html
> >> >www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark
> >> >    "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >_______________________________________________
> >> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>
> >> ==
> >> Poetry Catamaran
> >>
> >> "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"
> >>
> >> Robert R. Cobb
> >> AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
> >> http://rrcobb.tripod.com
> >>
> >> _____________________________________________________________
> >> -----
> >> Check out my portfolio at www.talentx.com
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New-Poetry mailing list
> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> ==
> Poetry Catamaran
>
> "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"
>
> Robert R. Cobb
> AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
> http://rrcobb.tripod.com
>
> _____________________________________________________________
> -----
> Check out my portfolio at www.talentx.com
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From moira_russell  Tue Sep 18 17:11:31 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:11:31 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] I don't have a Dead Kennedys tape
Message-ID: <F120HIUv9nDqUV4qUly00001cd0@hotmail.com>

>I fibbed, I don't have a Dead Kennedys tape (but I know of one called 
>'California Uber Alles').

I can lend you mine ("California Uber Alles" is off "Fresh Fruit for Rotting 
Vegetables," their 1980 debut).

>Our seasons, climate, landscape, wildlife, and history are alien to
>the worldviews of both England and New England. The world looks and feels 
>different in California from the way it does in either York or New York, 
>not only the natural landscape but also the urban one. California also 
>sounds different. Spanish, not French, colors our regional accent. The 
>deepest European roots are Latin and Catholic, not Anglo-Saxon and Puritan. 
>Asia and Latin America are omnipresent influences. There is no use 
>listening for a nightingale among the scrub oaks and chaparral.

While I think Gioia goes a little far in the rest of this paragraph about 
how California has "never been captured" etc. etc., for me this description 
rings true here, as someone who grew up in California and the Southwest.  It 
was also one of the observations that rang true for me when I read Jean Rhys 
and Margaret Atwood and other colonial writers whose experience with English 
literature, however much they loved it, didn't jive with their daily 
physical existence in a really different landscape.  To read a poem with 
only an intellectual understanding of what a nightingale sounds like or what 
a daffodil or forest of birches look like is odd indeed.  One of the things 
I liked about the "Voices & Visions" series was getting a chance to see the 
actual physical background of each poet.  This is not to say that people who 
haven't heard nightingales can't understand, say, Keats, but -- if 
California can sort of be essentially considered a kind of outpost -- why 
should colonial literature automatically follow the symbols and tropes etc. 
of the "mother" country?  That's what I read (perhaps wrongly) in the quote.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

_________________________________________________________________
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From jdavis  Tue Sep 18 17:17:45 2001
From: jdavis (Jordan Davis)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:17:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] the mother country
In-Reply-To: <F120HIUv9nDqUV4qUly00001cd0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.33.0109181716160.11279-100000@panix1.panix.com>

Moira -

Thanks for the offer. I'll backchannel with my snail address - :)

But last I checked, California and New York were in the same country -
surely there's some logical disconnect in an argument about the mother
country that refers to the original home of dem bums?

Jordan





From bdeanrob  Mon Sep 17 19:36:33 2001
From: bdeanrob (Brent Dean Robbins)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:36:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [psyche-arts] They can't see why they are hated
References: <a.12b6a523.28d7b723@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3BA68901.40AF71E@sgi.net>

The Moslem extremists oppose Irael not primarily because they believe it has
violated the rights of the Palestinians, but becasue Israel represents modernity.
The Islamic "fundamentalists" are in revolt against the entire modern world:
freedom, Democracy, secularism, science and technology, modern education, women's
liberation, pop culture, modern music and art, liberal Christianity - the whole
works. Therefore, anyone who believes they can be satisfied by the USA adopting a
more "humane" policy towards the Palestinians is mistaken. Give the Palestinians
their own state, and it would become a tawdry third-world dictatorship just like
all the other Arab states. The terrorist attacks against Israel and the USA would
continue unabated. The Moslem extremists do not want "justice," they want to
destroy us and everything we represent.

JBCM2 at aol.com wrote:

>
>
>
> Americans cannot ignore what their government does abroad
>
> Special report: Terrorism in the US
>
> Seumas Milne
> Thursday September 13, 2001
> The Guardian
>
> Nearly two days after the horrific suicide attacks on civilian workers in New
> York and Washington, it has become painfully clear that most Americans simply
> don't get it. From the president to passersby on the streets, the message
> seems to be the same: this is an inexplicable assault on freedom and
> democracy, which must be answered with overwhelming force - just as soon as
> someone can construct a credible account of who was actually responsible.
> Shock, rage and grief there has been aplenty. But any glimmer of recognition
> of why people might have been driven to carry out such atrocities,
> sacrificing their own lives in the process - or why the United States is
> hated with such bitterness, not only in Arab and Muslim countries, but across
> the developing world - seems almost entirely absent. Perhaps it is too much
> to hope that, as rescue workers struggle to pull firefighters from the
> rubble, any but a small minority might make the connection between what has
> been visited upon them and what their government has visited upon large parts
> of the world.
>
> But make that connection they must, if such tragedies are not to be repeated,
> potentially with even more devastating consequences. US political leaders are
> doing their people no favours by reinforcing popular ignorance with
> self-referential rhetoric. And the echoing chorus of Tony Blair, whose
> determination to bind Britain ever closer to US foreign policy ratchets up
> the threat to our own cities, will only fuel anti-western sentiment. So will
> calls for the defence of "civilisation", with its overtones of Samuel
> Huntington's poisonous theories of post-cold war confrontation between the
> west and Islam, heightening perceptions of racism and hypocrisy.
>
> As Mahatma Gandhi famously remarked when asked his opinion of western
> civilisation, it would be a good idea. Since George Bush's father inaugurated
> his new world order a decade ago, the US, supported by its British ally,
> bestrides the world like a colossus. Unconstrained by any superpower rival or
> system of global governance, the US giant has rewritten the global financial
> and trading system in its own interest; ripped up a string of treaties it
> finds inconvenient; sent troops to every corner of the globe; bombed
> Afghanistan, Sudan, Yugoslavia and Iraq without troubling the United Nations;
> maintained a string of murderous embargos against recalcitrant regimes; and
> recklessly thrown its weight behind Israel's 34-year illegal military
> occupation of the West Bank and Gaza as the Palestinian intifada rages.
>
> If, as yesterday's Wall Street Journal insisted, the east coast carnage was
> the fruit of the Clinton administration's Munich-like appeasement of the
> Palestinians, the mind boggles as to what US Republicans imagine to be a
> Churchillian response.
>
> It is this record of unabashed national egotism and arrogance that drives
> anti-Americanism among swaths of the world's population, for whom there is
> little democracy in the current distribution of global wealth and power. If
> it turns out that Tuesday's attacks were the work of Osama bin Laden's
> supporters, the sense that the Americans are once again reaping a dragons'
> teeth harvest they themselves sowed will be overwhelming.
>
> It was the Americans, after all, who poured resources into the 1980s war
> against the Soviet-backed regime in Kabul, at a time when girls could go to
> school and women to work. Bin Laden and his mojahedin were armed and trained
> by the CIA and MI6, as Afghanistan was turned into a wasteland and its
> communist leader Najibullah left hanging from a Kabul lamp post with his
> genitals stuffed in his mouth.
>
> But by then Bin Laden had turned against his American sponsors, while
> US-sponsored Pakistani intelligence had spawned the grotesque Taliban now
> protecting him. To punish its wayward Afghan offspring, the US subsequently
> forced through a sanctions regime which has helped push 4m to the brink of
> starvation, according to the latest UN figures, while Afghan refugees fan out
> across the world.
>
> All this must doubtless seem remote to Americans desperately searching the
> debris of what is expected to be the largest-ever massacre on US soil - as
> must the killings of yet more Palestinians in the West Bank yesterday, or
> even the 2m estimated to have died in Congo's wars since the overthrow of the
> US-backed Mobutu regime. "What could some political thing have to do with
> blowing up office buildings during working hours?" one bewildered New Yorker
> asked yesterday.
>
> Already, the Bush administration is assembling an international coalition for
> an Israeli-style war against terrorism, as if such counter-productive acts of
> outrage had an existence separate from the social conditions out of which
> they arise. But for every "terror network" that is rooted out, another will
> emerge - until the injustices and inequalities that produce them are
> addressed.
>
> Carpe Diem
> Academy for the Study of the Psychoanalytic Arts
> www.AcademyAnalyticArts.org




From bdeanrob  Mon Sep 17 19:41:50 2001
From: bdeanrob (Brent Dean Robbins)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 19:41:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [psyche-arts] They can't see why they are hated
References: <a.12b6a523.28d7b723@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3BA68A3E.5567120A@sgi.net>

There is a glaring fallacy in these arguments. One can either argue the
humanitarian aspects of this violence, or the political.

Under the political lens, the argument would go like this, "The US has stood and
currently stands athwart the express aims of certain Islamic sects. Therefore,
these sects are fully justified in wreaking whatever degree of warlike
retribution against the US they deem prudent, and in so doing, they are justified
in striving to effect their ends. This is so, even if they were to kidmap
children and use them as a means of attack against other innocent people."

The corallary to this is, "The Islamic sects have now and continue to interpose
themselves athwart the express aims of the legitimate governments in the Mid
East, and they have selected a wave of terrorism as the means to achieve their
political ends. In taking any and every step to thwart their aims, even to the
extent of using nuclear weapons to erradicate these individuals. This is
justified, even if it means that some innocents night be killed in the process."

The humanitarian argument would go: "There are ways to sit down and resolve
differences among people who have grievances. These must be the mechanisms used
to resolve disagreements like these. There can be no justification for the
killing of innocent people."

The problem is that the radical left argues the political , as a means of
justifying or rationalizing the attack, while arguing the humanitarian as a means
to render impotent any potential response.

It is a fallacious argument.

If the political justification is sufficient unto itself to mitigate or even
justify the attack, then it is sufficient unto itselto justify virtually any
response the US might effect.

If the humanitarian argument is to be employed, it must be employed both ways.

JBCM2 at aol.com wrote:

>
>
>
> Americans cannot ignore what their government does abroad
>
> Special report: Terrorism in the US
>
> Seumas Milne
> Thursday September 13, 2001
> The Guardian
>
> Nearly two days after the horrific suicide attacks on civilian workers in New
> York and Washington, it has become painfully clear that most Americans simply
> don't get it. From the president to passersby on the streets, the message
> seems to be the same: this is an inexplicable assault on freedom and
> democracy, which must be answered with overwhelming force - just as soon as
> someone can construct a credible account of who was actually responsible.
> Shock, rage and grief there has been aplenty. But any glimmer of recognition
> of why people might have been driven to carry out such atrocities,
> sacrificing their own lives in the process - or why the United States is
> hated with such bitterness, not only in Arab and Muslim countries, but across
> the developing world - seems almost entirely absent. Perhaps it is too much
> to hope that, as rescue workers struggle to pull firefighters from the
> rubble, any but a small minority might make the connection between what has
> been visited upon them and what their government has visited upon large parts
> of the world.
>
> But make that connection they must, if such tragedies are not to be repeated,
> potentially with even more devastating consequences. US political leaders are
> doing their people no favours by reinforcing popular ignorance with
> self-referential rhetoric. And the echoing chorus of Tony Blair, whose
> determination to bind Britain ever closer to US foreign policy ratchets up
> the threat to our own cities, will only fuel anti-western sentiment. So will
> calls for the defence of "civilisation", with its overtones of Samuel
> Huntington's poisonous theories of post-cold war confrontation between the
> west and Islam, heightening perceptions of racism and hypocrisy.
>
> As Mahatma Gandhi famously remarked when asked his opinion of western
> civilisation, it would be a good idea. Since George Bush's father inaugurated
> his new world order a decade ago, the US, supported by its British ally,
> bestrides the world like a colossus. Unconstrained by any superpower rival or
> system of global governance, the US giant has rewritten the global financial
> and trading system in its own interest; ripped up a string of treaties it
> finds inconvenient; sent troops to every corner of the globe; bombed
> Afghanistan, Sudan, Yugoslavia and Iraq without troubling the United Nations;
> maintained a string of murderous embargos against recalcitrant regimes; and
> recklessly thrown its weight behind Israel's 34-year illegal military
> occupation of the West Bank and Gaza as the Palestinian intifada rages.
>
> If, as yesterday's Wall Street Journal insisted, the east coast carnage was
> the fruit of the Clinton administration's Munich-like appeasement of the
> Palestinians, the mind boggles as to what US Republicans imagine to be a
> Churchillian response.
>
> It is this record of unabashed national egotism and arrogance that drives
> anti-Americanism among swaths of the world's population, for whom there is
> little democracy in the current distribution of global wealth and power. If
> it turns out that Tuesday's attacks were the work of Osama bin Laden's
> supporters, the sense that the Americans are once again reaping a dragons'
> teeth harvest they themselves sowed will be overwhelming.
>
> It was the Americans, after all, who poured resources into the 1980s war
> against the Soviet-backed regime in Kabul, at a time when girls could go to
> school and women to work. Bin Laden and his mojahedin were armed and trained
> by the CIA and MI6, as Afghanistan was turned into a wasteland and its
> communist leader Najibullah left hanging from a Kabul lamp post with his
> genitals stuffed in his mouth.
>
> But by then Bin Laden had turned against his American sponsors, while
> US-sponsored Pakistani intelligence had spawned the grotesque Taliban now
> protecting him. To punish its wayward Afghan offspring, the US subsequently
> forced through a sanctions regime which has helped push 4m to the brink of
> starvation, according to the latest UN figures, while Afghan refugees fan out
> across the world.
>
> All this must doubtless seem remote to Americans desperately searching the
> debris of what is expected to be the largest-ever massacre on US soil - as
> must the killings of yet more Palestinians in the West Bank yesterday, or
> even the 2m estimated to have died in Congo's wars since the overthrow of the
> US-backed Mobutu regime. "What could some political thing have to do with
> blowing up office buildings during working hours?" one bewildered New Yorker
> asked yesterday.
>
> Already, the Bush administration is assembling an international coalition for
> an Israeli-style war against terrorism, as if such counter-productive acts of
> outrage had an existence separate from the social conditions out of which
> they arise. But for every "terror network" that is rooted out, another will
> emerge - until the injustices and inequalities that produce them are
> addressed.
>
> Carpe Diem
> Academy for the Study of the Psychoanalytic Arts
> www.AcademyAnalyticArts.org




From bdeanrob  Mon Sep 17 21:54:07 2001
From: bdeanrob (Brent Dean Robbins)
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 21:54:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [psyche-arts] They can't see why they are hated
References: <a.12b6a523.28d7b723@aol.com> <3BA68A3E.5567120A@sgi.net> <3BA69B7D.96820B54@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3BA6A93F.CA971DCF@sgi.net>

Anyone who justifies and rationalizes terrorist mass murder of innocent men, women and
children is far worse than just xenophobic.

How 'bout taking a little vacation in Afghanistan with bin Laden and your terrorist
friends? The 90% of the population of the United States who you refer to as "hicks" will
gladly take you out with a 500 pounder along with the rest of 'em.

"R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" wrote:

> <The problem is that the radical left argues the political , as a means of
> justifying or rationalizing the attack, while arguing the humanitarian as a means
> to render impotent any potential response.>
>
> How anyone can "render impotent" a 500 pound bomb is beyond me. The impotence, for
> example the cycle of violence, can be discussed in both political and humanitarian
> terms but not realistically in economic ones. And the fundamental attack is the
> exploitation of Middle Eastern resources by the West and its fanatic consumption
> fundamentalists e.g. no democracy is possible without free (sic) markets. The logical
> expansion of this idea is do it our way or else. After all if this was an oil reserve
> in Texas we'd be perfectly happy to let Qatar become a run down little...Oh, sorry
> Qatar is one of the wealthiest countries in the world with universal health care and
> free education through the University level. Wouldn't the Arab world, especially the
> traditional one, be surprised to find that they couldn't run their affairs without
> the likes of great western statesmen like G.W. Bush, Henry Kissinger, Spiro Agnew,
> Allen Dulles, "Ruthless" Rumsfeld, Ronny "The Diseased Puppet" Reagan, Dan Quayle et
> al. The events of last week have demonstrated one thing: this country has a major
> surplus of xenophobic hicks. CP
>
> Brent Dean Robbins wrote:
>
> > There is a glaring fallacy in these arguments. One can either argue the
> > humanitarian aspects of this violence, or the political.
> >
> > Under the political lens, the argument would go like this, "The US has stood and
> > currently stands athwart the express aims of certain Islamic sects. Therefore,
> > these sects are fully justified in wreaking whatever degree of warlike
> > retribution against the US they deem prudent, and in so doing, they are justified
> > in striving to effect their ends. This is so, even if they were to kidmap
> > children and use them as a means of attack against other innocent people."
> >
> > The corallary to this is, "The Islamic sects have now and continue to interpose
> > themselves athwart the express aims of the legitimate governments in the Mid
> > East, and they have selected a wave of terrorism as the means to achieve their
> > political ends. In taking any and every step to thwart their aims, even to the
> > extent of using nuclear weapons to erradicate these individuals. This is
> > justified, even if it means that some innocents night be killed in the process."
> >
> > The humanitarian argument would go: "There are ways to sit down and resolve
> > differences among people who have grievances. These must be the mechanisms used
> > to resolve disagreements like these. There can be no justification for the
> > killing of innocent people."
> >
> > The problem is that the radical left argues the political , as a means of
> > justifying or rationalizing the attack, while arguing the humanitarian as a means
> > to render impotent any potential response.
> >
> > It is a fallacious argument.
> >
> > If the political justification is sufficient unto itself to mitigate or even
> > justify the attack, then it is sufficient unto itselto justify virtually any
> > response the US might effect.
> >
> > If the humanitarian argument is to be employed, it must be employed both ways.
> >
> > JBCM2 at aol.com wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Americans cannot ignore what their government does abroad
> > >
> > > Special report: Terrorism in the US
> > >
> > > Seumas Milne
> > > Thursday September 13, 2001
> > > The Guardian
> > >
> > > Nearly two days after the horrific suicide attacks on civilian workers in New
> > > York and Washington, it has become painfully clear that most Americans simply
> > > don't get it. From the president to passersby on the streets, the message
> > > seems to be the same: this is an inexplicable assault on freedom and
> > > democracy, which must be answered with overwhelming force - just as soon as
> > > someone can construct a credible account of who was actually responsible.
> > > Shock, rage and grief there has been aplenty. But any glimmer of recognition
> > > of why people might have been driven to carry out such atrocities,
> > > sacrificing their own lives in the process - or why the United States is
> > > hated with such bitterness, not only in Arab and Muslim countries, but across
> > > the developing world - seems almost entirely absent. Perhaps it is too much
> > > to hope that, as rescue workers struggle to pull firefighters from the
> > > rubble, any but a small minority might make the connection between what has
> > > been visited upon them and what their government has visited upon large parts
> > > of the world.
> > >
> > > But make that connection they must, if such tragedies are not to be repeated,
> > > potentially with even more devastating consequences. US political leaders are
> > > doing their people no favours by reinforcing popular ignorance with
> > > self-referential rhetoric. And the echoing chorus of Tony Blair, whose
> > > determination to bind Britain ever closer to US foreign policy ratchets up
> > > the threat to our own cities, will only fuel anti-western sentiment. So will
> > > calls for the defence of "civilisation", with its overtones of Samuel
> > > Huntington's poisonous theories of post-cold war confrontation between the
> > > west and Islam, heightening perceptions of racism and hypocrisy.
> > >
> > > As Mahatma Gandhi famously remarked when asked his opinion of western
> > > civilisation, it would be a good idea. Since George Bush's father inaugurated
> > > his new world order a decade ago, the US, supported by its British ally,
> > > bestrides the world like a colossus. Unconstrained by any superpower rival or
> > > system of global governance, the US giant has rewritten the global financial
> > > and trading system in its own interest; ripped up a string of treaties it
> > > finds inconvenient; sent troops to every corner of the globe; bombed
> > > Afghanistan, Sudan, Yugoslavia and Iraq without troubling the United Nations;
> > > maintained a string of murderous embargos against recalcitrant regimes; and
> > > recklessly thrown its weight behind Israel's 34-year illegal military
> > > occupation of the West Bank and Gaza as the Palestinian intifada rages.
> > >
> > > If, as yesterday's Wall Street Journal insisted, the east coast carnage was
> > > the fruit of the Clinton administration's Munich-like appeasement of the
> > > Palestinians, the mind boggles as to what US Republicans imagine to be a
> > > Churchillian response.
> > >
> > > It is this record of unabashed national egotism and arrogance that drives
> > > anti-Americanism among swaths of the world's population, for whom there is
> > > little democracy in the current distribution of global wealth and power. If
> > > it turns out that Tuesday's attacks were the work of Osama bin Laden's
> > > supporters, the sense that the Americans are once again reaping a dragons'
> > > teeth harvest they themselves sowed will be overwhelming.
> > >
> > > It was the Americans, after all, who poured resources into the 1980s war
> > > against the Soviet-backed regime in Kabul, at a time when girls could go to
> > > school and women to work. Bin Laden and his mojahedin were armed and trained
> > > by the CIA and MI6, as Afghanistan was turned into a wasteland and its
> > > communist leader Najibullah left hanging from a Kabul lamp post with his
> > > genitals stuffed in his mouth.
> > >
> > > But by then Bin Laden had turned against his American sponsors, while
> > > US-sponsored Pakistani intelligence had spawned the grotesque Taliban now
> > > protecting him. To punish its wayward Afghan offspring, the US subsequently
> > > forced through a sanctions regime which has helped push 4m to the brink of
> > > starvation, according to the latest UN figures, while Afghan refugees fan out
> > > across the world.
> > >
> > > All this must doubtless seem remote to Americans desperately searching the
> > > debris of what is expected to be the largest-ever massacre on US soil - as
> > > must the killings of yet more Palestinians in the West Bank yesterday, or
> > > even the 2m estimated to have died in Congo's wars since the overthrow of the
> > > US-backed Mobutu regime. "What could some political thing have to do with
> > > blowing up office buildings during working hours?" one bewildered New Yorker
> > > asked yesterday.
> > >
> > > Already, the Bush administration is assembling an international coalition for
> > > an Israeli-style war against terrorism, as if such counter-productive acts of
> > > outrage had an existence separate from the social conditions out of which
> > > they arise. But for every "terror network" that is rooted out, another will
> > > emerge - until the injustices and inequalities that produce them are
> > > addressed.
> > >
> > > Carpe Diem
> > > Academy for the Study of the Psychoanalytic Arts
> > > www.AcademyAnalyticArts.org
>
> Carpe Diem
> Academy for the Study of the Psychoanalytic Arts
> www.AcademyAnalyticArts.org




From moira_russell  Tue Sep 18 17:32:01 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 13:32:01 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] the mother country
Message-ID: <F86UezXlCvoWA59DZLK00001447@hotmail.com>

>Thanks for the offer. I'll backchannel with my snail address - :)

Remember, Buy It Used at Amazon.com!
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000000F6R/qid=1000847010/sr=1-6/ref=sr_1_3_6/107-7194751-5827761

>But last I checked, California and New York were in the same country -
>surely there's some logical disconnect in an argument about the mother
>country that refers to the original home of dem bums?

Good point.  Obviously states in the same country can't be colonies of one 
another -- at least logically.  It does seem to me on a certain emotional 
level, though, that the West was a kind of "New New World" for people in the 
East and that the difference in physical landscape and cultural/emotional 
"style," if you will, does create a difference.  I don't know if the 
difference is as extreme as Gioia sees it to be, but the sense of having an 
inherited culture which didn't match up with what I knew is something I find 
I have in common with other post-colonialist types.  I went to college in 
Santa Fe, and I remember the shock of people who attended from the East 
Coast on finding out that you had to drive for hours and hours to get to 
Albuquerque, and there was nothing in between you and there.  Definitely not 
something you experience in the East.  Likewise, when I went East and found 
Civil War monuments seemingly every ten feet in Maryland and Baltimore, I 
remembered the one Civil War museum in New Mexico:  in Glorieta.  And it 
never gets very much money.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From TerryP17  Tue Sep 18 17:33:00 2001
From: TerryP17 (TerryP17 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:33:00 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: SF, Dead Kennedys, etc.
Message-ID: <62.1418b7c0.28d9178d@aol.com>

Hi Jordan,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. 

You wrote:

<<Hi Terry - I fibbed, I don't have a Dead Kennedys tape (but I know of one
called 'California Uber Alles'). Also, I seem to have gone into some kind
of toxic shock when I read the following in the Gioia essay

There's a lot of silly stuff in there (as there inevitably will be when
the as-yet-uncaptured reality of California is at stake), but the call to
macaronic verse (or as Sam Gwynn calls it, macronic verse -- but Sam,
you're in the minority there) is nowhere to be found. Oops.>>

I'm not sure this is so much silly as a hymn to the region as seen by Dana. Again, you may disagree. I certainly find CA rather different than New England and NYC, in mood, vision, space, and time. This passage is a little rhapsodic and idealistic, (or perhaps idealized), but I'm not sure it's toxic! Obviously, you disagree, which is okay.

<<Terry, while I'm familiar with the musical "Damn Yankees," I really do
think this is not the week for New York-bashing. And I was appalled by the
almost uniformly non-goyische list of Yankees Dana G. brought forth -->>

I'm surprised you interpreted this as New York bashing. It was nothing of the sort. I have a lot of literary friends up there, some of whom I couldn't track down for days after the destruction of the WTC. In fact, I've been up to visit them twice in the last month and a half, the last time just two weeks ago. I was simply drawing an analogy to perennial Yankee-hating by baseball fans and the actual literary hegemony of NYC to make my point. That such a point is very close in time to the recent epic tragedy is unfortunate, but it's a true point and no indelicacy was ever intended. And that point is, one can proclaim that NYC is not the center of the US literary universe until the cows come home, but that doesn't make it true. As to "lists," well, I've already commented on that. 

Hope this clarifies things. As usual, I guess we'll have to differ on some stuff here, but that's not a problem for me.

--Terry 





From CobbCoStudioArts  Tue Sep 18 17:32:30 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:32:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] They can't see why
Message-ID: <20010918213230.8DB972756@sitemail.everyone.net>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20010918/b0d42a24/attachment.ksh>


From GrahamD  Tue Sep 18 17:35:51 2001
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:35:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Open Question
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDEF7@mail.ripon.edu>

Amen, Finnegan.


===================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
===================

> ----------
> From: 	JforJames at aol.com
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Tuesday, September 18, 2001 3:20 PM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	[New-Poetry] Open Question
> 
> Are many people convinced or won over by your position
> when you call them know-nothings 
> while suggesting they are either hopelessly brainwashed
> or so uninformed (compared to you) 
> they shall never be capable of catching on?
> If so, I'm surprised the telemarketers haven't adopted
> this persuasive approach.
> IFinnegan 
> 



From alphavil  Tue Sep 18 17:38:29 2001
From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:38:29 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: SF
References: <162.1162c13.28d8f9ba@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3BA7BED4.8A1D4DF3@ix.netcom.com>

Or Terry, remember that nitwit, Grace Cavilieri with the radio show on PFW. It was abominable that people of the stature of Ambrose Lane and Dorothy Healy were asked to share the same airwaves with that airhead. She would have been a major setback for
Washington DC letters if there had been any to set back.

Or ? Austin's Black Box. Boy, that project went down a Black Hole. I think our most famous Beat was Charles Plymell.

Oh, the painful flashbacks! OOOOOOO!!!!

I'm reminded of a line in Dylan's Maggie's Farm---You ask for examples of the insipid---"Honey, how come you had to ask me that?" And with the same rhetorical emphasis. There's a livelier poetry scene in Anchorage than in DC.

TerryP17 at aol.com wrote:

> <<"Just out"?! Jack Foley gave me a copy 2 years ago. He was visiting here in
> DC then. As for pure poetic energy San Francisco sounds like paradise
> compared to the myopic whimperings of DC poetics, if you can grace the
> lifeless blither here with the term poetic. CP>>
>
> The essay was out a couple of years ago. The book, to which I was referring if you would care to read the post, not just part of it, edited by Jack Foley, is "just out," dated 2001. Myopic whimperings? Lifeless blither? Care to back these observations up?
>
> --TLP
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From MerwinDame  Tue Sep 18 17:52:19 2001
From: MerwinDame (MerwinDame at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:52:19 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] "language, she said...language." -- patti smith
Message-ID: <75.1b568d84.28d91c13@aol.com>

"In the first hours of the crisis, Bush called terrorists who attacked 
America ``those folks,'' a soft construction that caused White House aides to 
wince. Now he doesn't mince words about ``those barbarians"."


:)

*muffy*


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From roger  Tue Sep 18 18:09:25 2001
From: roger (roger  day)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 23:09:25 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [psyche-arts] They can't see why they are hated
References: <a.12b6a523.28d7b723@aol.com> <3BA68901.40AF71E@sgi.net>
Message-ID: <005e01c1408e$941d0cb0$2a0186d9@BYRON>

Well, yes. They might well want destroy us; it's "we" who've been shovelling mass tonnage of bombs down "their" throats since the Gulf War. Week in, week out. And nobody (in this part of the world) raising a whimper except when the expenditure estimates came out. You've been been spending how much? On what? Then the whole Lebanese war since 1982 - the destruction of the camps. The endless politicking and suppression and for what? So that you and I can drive to work in an SUV of choice? Give me a break.

The rest of your assertions are basically drivel. I hear that our home-grown set of fundamentalists are trying to deny modernity as well - Creationism anyone? Book-banning in schools?

BTW, Sharon and Yasser Arafat have just ordered a cease-fire on both sides. Why couldn't this have been done earlier?

Of course, the sickest joke of all is that Bin Laden is a creature of the CIA.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brent Dean Robbins" <bdeanrob at sgi.net>
To: <psyche-arts at academyanalyticarts.org>
Cc: <BBlum6 at aol.com>; <flpoint at hotmail.com>; <ibid1 at earthlink.net>; <moyercdmm at earthlink.net>; <CMJBalso at aol.com>; <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>; <harrysandy at kreative.net>; <derekvdt at academypo.fss.fss.pvt.k12.pa.us>; <Amzemel at aol.com>; <JBCM2 at aol.com>; <kjohnson at highland.cc.il.us>; <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>; <POETICS at listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 00:36
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [psyche-arts] They can't see why they are hated


> The Moslem extremists oppose Irael not primarily because they believe it has
> violated the rights of the Palestinians, but becasue Israel represents modernity.
> The Islamic "fundamentalists" are in revolt against the entire modern world:
> freedom, Democracy, secularism, science and technology, modern education, women's
> liberation, pop culture, modern music and art, liberal Christianity - the whole
> works. Therefore, anyone who believes they can be satisfied by the USA adopting a
> more "humane" policy towards the Palestinians is mistaken. Give the Palestinians
> their own state, and it would become a tawdry third-world dictatorship just like
> all the other Arab states. The terrorist attacks against Israel and the USA would
> continue unabated. The Moslem extremists do not want "justice," they want to
> destroy us and everything we represent.
> 
> JBCM2 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> >
> > Americans cannot ignore what their government does abroad
> >
> > Special report: Terrorism in the US
> >
> > Seumas Milne
> > Thursday September 13, 2001
> > The Guardian
> >
> > Nearly two days after the horrific suicide attacks on civilian workers in New
> > York and Washington, it has become painfully clear that most Americans simply
> > don't get it. From the president to passersby on the streets, the message
> > seems to be the same: this is an inexplicable assault on freedom and
> > democracy, which must be answered with overwhelming force - just as soon as
> > someone can construct a credible account of who was actually responsible.
> > Shock, rage and grief there has been aplenty. But any glimmer of recognition
> > of why people might have been driven to carry out such atrocities,
> > sacrificing their own lives in the process - or why the United States is
> > hated with such bitterness, not only in Arab and Muslim countries, but across
> > the developing world - seems almost entirely absent. Perhaps it is too much
> > to hope that, as rescue workers struggle to pull firefighters from the
> > rubble, any but a small minority might make the connection between what has
> > been visited upon them and what their government has visited upon large parts
> > of the world.
> >
> > But make that connection they must, if such tragedies are not to be repeated,
> > potentially with even more devastating consequences. US political leaders are
> > doing their people no favours by reinforcing popular ignorance with
> > self-referential rhetoric. And the echoing chorus of Tony Blair, whose
> > determination to bind Britain ever closer to US foreign policy ratchets up
> > the threat to our own cities, will only fuel anti-western sentiment. So will
> > calls for the defence of "civilisation", with its overtones of Samuel
> > Huntington's poisonous theories of post-cold war confrontation between the
> > west and Islam, heightening perceptions of racism and hypocrisy.
> >
> > As Mahatma Gandhi famously remarked when asked his opinion of western
> > civilisation, it would be a good idea. Since George Bush's father inaugurated
> > his new world order a decade ago, the US, supported by its British ally,
> > bestrides the world like a colossus. Unconstrained by any superpower rival or
> > system of global governance, the US giant has rewritten the global financial
> > and trading system in its own interest; ripped up a string of treaties it
> > finds inconvenient; sent troops to every corner of the globe; bombed
> > Afghanistan, Sudan, Yugoslavia and Iraq without troubling the United Nations;
> > maintained a string of murderous embargos against recalcitrant regimes; and
> > recklessly thrown its weight behind Israel's 34-year illegal military
> > occupation of the West Bank and Gaza as the Palestinian intifada rages.
> >
> > If, as yesterday's Wall Street Journal insisted, the east coast carnage was
> > the fruit of the Clinton administration's Munich-like appeasement of the
> > Palestinians, the mind boggles as to what US Republicans imagine to be a
> > Churchillian response.
> >
> > It is this record of unabashed national egotism and arrogance that drives
> > anti-Americanism among swaths of the world's population, for whom there is
> > little democracy in the current distribution of global wealth and power. If
> > it turns out that Tuesday's attacks were the work of Osama bin Laden's
> > supporters, the sense that the Americans are once again reaping a dragons'
> > teeth harvest they themselves sowed will be overwhelming.
> >
> > It was the Americans, after all, who poured resources into the 1980s war
> > against the Soviet-backed regime in Kabul, at a time when girls could go to
> > school and women to work. Bin Laden and his mojahedin were armed and trained
> > by the CIA and MI6, as Afghanistan was turned into a wasteland and its
> > communist leader Najibullah left hanging from a Kabul lamp post with his
> > genitals stuffed in his mouth.
> >
> > But by then Bin Laden had turned against his American sponsors, while
> > US-sponsored Pakistani intelligence had spawned the grotesque Taliban now
> > protecting him. To punish its wayward Afghan offspring, the US subsequently
> > forced through a sanctions regime which has helped push 4m to the brink of
> > starvation, according to the latest UN figures, while Afghan refugees fan out
> > across the world.
> >
> > All this must doubtless seem remote to Americans desperately searching the
> > debris of what is expected to be the largest-ever massacre on US soil - as
> > must the killings of yet more Palestinians in the West Bank yesterday, or
> > even the 2m estimated to have died in Congo's wars since the overthrow of the
> > US-backed Mobutu regime. "What could some political thing have to do with
> > blowing up office buildings during working hours?" one bewildered New Yorker
> > asked yesterday.
> >
> > Already, the Bush administration is assembling an international coalition for
> > an Israeli-style war against terrorism, as if such counter-productive acts of
> > outrage had an existence separate from the social conditions out of which
> > they arise. But for every "terror network" that is rooted out, another will
> > emerge - until the injustices and inequalities that produce them are
> > addressed.
> >
> > Carpe Diem
> > Academy for the Study of the Psychoanalytic Arts
> > www.AcademyAnalyticArts.org
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 




From roger  Tue Sep 18 18:21:35 2001
From: roger (roger  day)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 23:21:35 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [psyche-arts] They can't see why they are hated
Message-ID: <008401c14090$4764ef30$2a0186d9@BYRON>

To clarify, that should read "creature created by the CIA". Just to be sure that there are no misunderstandings here.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "roger day" <roger at nenuphar.freeserve.co.uk>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>; <psyche-arts at academyanalyticarts.org>
Cc: <BBlum6 at aol.com>; <flpoint at hotmail.com>; <ibid1 at earthlink.net>; <moyercdmm at earthlink.net>; <CMJBalso at aol.com>; <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>; <harrysandy at kreative.net>; <derekvdt at academypo.fss.fss.pvt.k12.pa.us>; <Amzemel at aol.com>; <JBCM2 at aol.com>; <kjohnson at highland.cc.il.us>; <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>; <POETICS at listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 23:09
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: [psyche-arts] They can't see why they are hated


Well, yes. They might well want destroy us; it's "we" who've been shovelling mass tonnage of bombs down "their" throats since the Gulf War. Week in, week out. And nobody (in this part of the world) raising a whimper except when the expenditure estimates came out. You've been been spending how much? On what? Then the whole Lebanese war since 1982 - the destruction of the camps. The endless politicking and suppression and for what? So that you and I can drive to work in an SUV of choice? Give me a break.

The rest of your assertions are basically drivel. I hear that our home-grown set of fundamentalists are trying to deny modernity as well - Creationism anyone? Book-banning in schools?

BTW, Sharon and Yasser Arafat have just ordered a cease-fire on both sides. Why couldn't this have been done earlier?

Of course, the sickest joke of all is that Bin Laden is a creature of the CIA.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Brent Dean Robbins" <bdeanrob at sgi.net>
To: <psyche-arts at academyanalyticarts.org>
Cc: <BBlum6 at aol.com>; <flpoint at hotmail.com>; <ibid1 at earthlink.net>; <moyercdmm at earthlink.net>; <CMJBalso at aol.com>; <alphavil at ix.netcom.com>; <harrysandy at kreative.net>; <derekvdt at academypo.fss.fss.pvt.k12.pa.us>; <Amzemel at aol.com>; <JBCM2 at aol.com>; <kjohnson at highland.cc.il.us>; <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>; <POETICS at listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 00:36
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [psyche-arts] They can't see why they are hated


> The Moslem extremists oppose Irael not primarily because they believe it has
> violated the rights of the Palestinians, but becasue Israel represents modernity.
> The Islamic "fundamentalists" are in revolt against the entire modern world:
> freedom, Democracy, secularism, science and technology, modern education, women's
> liberation, pop culture, modern music and art, liberal Christianity - the whole
> works. Therefore, anyone who believes they can be satisfied by the USA adopting a
> more "humane" policy towards the Palestinians is mistaken. Give the Palestinians
> their own state, and it would become a tawdry third-world dictatorship just like
> all the other Arab states. The terrorist attacks against Israel and the USA would
> continue unabated. The Moslem extremists do not want "justice," they want to
> destroy us and everything we represent.
> 
> JBCM2 at aol.com wrote:
> 
> >
> >
> >
> > Americans cannot ignore what their government does abroad
> >
> > Special report: Terrorism in the US
> >
> > Seumas Milne
> > Thursday September 13, 2001
> > The Guardian
> >
> > Nearly two days after the horrific suicide attacks on civilian workers in New
> > York and Washington, it has become painfully clear that most Americans simply
> > don't get it. From the president to passersby on the streets, the message
> > seems to be the same: this is an inexplicable assault on freedom and
> > democracy, which must be answered with overwhelming force - just as soon as
> > someone can construct a credible account of who was actually responsible.
> > Shock, rage and grief there has been aplenty. But any glimmer of recognition
> > of why people might have been driven to carry out such atrocities,
> > sacrificing their own lives in the process - or why the United States is
> > hated with such bitterness, not only in Arab and Muslim countries, but across
> > the developing world - seems almost entirely absent. Perhaps it is too much
> > to hope that, as rescue workers struggle to pull firefighters from the
> > rubble, any but a small minority might make the connection between what has
> > been visited upon them and what their government has visited upon large parts
> > of the world.
> >
> > But make that connection they must, if such tragedies are not to be repeated,
> > potentially with even more devastating consequences. US political leaders are
> > doing their people no favours by reinforcing popular ignorance with
> > self-referential rhetoric. And the echoing chorus of Tony Blair, whose
> > determination to bind Britain ever closer to US foreign policy ratchets up
> > the threat to our own cities, will only fuel anti-western sentiment. So will
> > calls for the defence of "civilisation", with its overtones of Samuel
> > Huntington's poisonous theories of post-cold war confrontation between the
> > west and Islam, heightening perceptions of racism and hypocrisy.
> >
> > As Mahatma Gandhi famously remarked when asked his opinion of western
> > civilisation, it would be a good idea. Since George Bush's father inaugurated
> > his new world order a decade ago, the US, supported by its British ally,
> > bestrides the world like a colossus. Unconstrained by any superpower rival or
> > system of global governance, the US giant has rewritten the global financial
> > and trading system in its own interest; ripped up a string of treaties it
> > finds inconvenient; sent troops to every corner of the globe; bombed
> > Afghanistan, Sudan, Yugoslavia and Iraq without troubling the United Nations;
> > maintained a string of murderous embargos against recalcitrant regimes; and
> > recklessly thrown its weight behind Israel's 34-year illegal military
> > occupation of the West Bank and Gaza as the Palestinian intifada rages.
> >
> > If, as yesterday's Wall Street Journal insisted, the east coast carnage was
> > the fruit of the Clinton administration's Munich-like appeasement of the
> > Palestinians, the mind boggles as to what US Republicans imagine to be a
> > Churchillian response.
> >
> > It is this record of unabashed national egotism and arrogance that drives
> > anti-Americanism among swaths of the world's population, for whom there is
> > little democracy in the current distribution of global wealth and power. If
> > it turns out that Tuesday's attacks were the work of Osama bin Laden's
> > supporters, the sense that the Americans are once again reaping a dragons'
> > teeth harvest they themselves sowed will be overwhelming.
> >
> > It was the Americans, after all, who poured resources into the 1980s war
> > against the Soviet-backed regime in Kabul, at a time when girls could go to
> > school and women to work. Bin Laden and his mojahedin were armed and trained
> > by the CIA and MI6, as Afghanistan was turned into a wasteland and its
> > communist leader Najibullah left hanging from a Kabul lamp post with his
> > genitals stuffed in his mouth.
> >
> > But by then Bin Laden had turned against his American sponsors, while
> > US-sponsored Pakistani intelligence had spawned the grotesque Taliban now
> > protecting him. To punish its wayward Afghan offspring, the US subsequently
> > forced through a sanctions regime which has helped push 4m to the brink of
> > starvation, according to the latest UN figures, while Afghan refugees fan out
> > across the world.
> >
> > All this must doubtless seem remote to Americans desperately searching the
> > debris of what is expected to be the largest-ever massacre on US soil - as
> > must the killings of yet more Palestinians in the West Bank yesterday, or
> > even the 2m estimated to have died in Congo's wars since the overthrow of the
> > US-backed Mobutu regime. "What could some political thing have to do with
> > blowing up office buildings during working hours?" one bewildered New Yorker
> > asked yesterday.
> >
> > Already, the Bush administration is assembling an international coalition for
> > an Israeli-style war against terrorism, as if such counter-productive acts of
> > outrage had an existence separate from the social conditions out of which
> > they arise. But for every "terror network" that is rooted out, another will
> > emerge - until the injustices and inequalities that produce them are
> > addressed.
> >
> > Carpe Diem
> > Academy for the Study of the Psychoanalytic Arts
> > www.AcademyAnalyticArts.org
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 





From TerryP17  Tue Sep 18 18:41:24 2001
From: TerryP17 (TerryP17 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 18:41:24 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: SF & DC
Message-ID: <9b.1b161ac9.28d92795@aol.com>

Carlo wrote:

<<Terry, sweetie. I've got the "book" right here. And I read it as soon as Jack
gave it to me. Second printing?>>

Sorry my friend, I've tagged you on this. I have a review copy and the book is just out, dated 2001, officially released this month by Scarlet Tanager Press and edited by Jack Foley. It is a first edition, first printing as any bibliographer would know by looking at the title page and inside title page. You could not have read it two years ago as you alleged in a previous post--the book didn't exist. Or perhaps Jack sent you a galley proof. Even so, that would have happened only a few months ago. If anyone on this board doubts my word, check the current reference for the book on Amazon.com. You can dig it up by accessing Jack Foley.

<<"Whimpering, soporific drivel'? I thought that's what the Washington School
called itself. You in particular are a walking case study in the tedium and
boredom of Washington's poetry and everything else, esp. the paucity of jazz.
The proof is in the puddin'
as they say. If it ain't obvious to you, obviously you are part of the
problem because it is obvious to every body else without any acumen.>>

IS there a Washington School? I think not. But there are fine poets here, from Anthony Hecht and Henry Taylor (well known nationally) to Mike Schaffner and Miles Moore, excellent local poets with quite a following, and Eric Hendrixson, an up and comer. Or my old college friend Greg Orfalea, frequently published, and editor of a fine collection of Arab-American poetry out of the University of Colorado Press as I recall. Or, going a bit south to Richmond, Joe Awad, Virginia's former poet laureate and a frequent visitor to the area. Greg and Joe, by the way, spearheaded what became the wonderful Kahlil Ghibran Memorial Park on Mass Ave. near the VP's mansion. Khalil is not my cup of tea, but this is as nice a memorial as you'll see to a poet, and is largely the result of Greg's and Joe's efforts. I am not sure that we could characterize these area poets as writing sophomoric drivel--if indeed you could ever back up your assertions or define what sophomoric drivel is. You can catch some of these poets once a mon
th at Arlington's Iota club on Sunday evenings. You can find others, on occasion, at Mariposa up in College Park, MD, or, sometimes, in Politics and Prose bookstore or in the small house in Rock Creek Park which holds a regular reading program in the summer. Occasionally, nationally-known poets read in the downtown Borders. Roughly once a month, New England poet Richard Moore holds a workshop out in Leesburg, VA. As in any town, there are a lot of bad poets here, but there are many good ones, and I'm not sure that tarring an entire town with a bad rep is provable or justifiable.

And what do you know about Washington's music scene, really? What could the alleged "paucity of jazz" possibly have to do with me, personally? What do you know that enables you to make this connection? Jazz has mostly migrated to the Northern Virginia suburbs where it is going strong in clubs out as far as Sterling, especially in Reston's Market Street Bar & Grill. In Falls Church, the old State Theater frequently features live R&B and jazz in a nightclub setting with the added attraction of saving a local landmark from the wrecking ball. In DC, the 9:30 Club still occasionally does jazz, and Blues Alley almost always has the top acts although it is pricey. Local radio has become a wasteland of the conglomerates, alas, but there is always my friend Rob Bamberger's "Hot Jazz Saturday Night" on WAMU-FM, 88.5, from 7-10 PM featuring selections from vintage jazz from the teens to more recent times along with his excellent commentary. It's cheaper than going to the clubs. (He has written many of the cover notes f
or the Smithsonian's recorded jazz collection of CDs). And the Kennedy Center's "Women In Jazz" festival held late every spring is a fountain of top female jazz talent ranging from old favorites like Marian MacPartland to jazz drummer and big band leader Sherry Miricle and other interesting talents, all brought in by the great Dr. Billy Taylor. Jazz is not what it should be in this town, but it is here nonetheless and to imply that that is not so is to be in error.  

I think that it is perhaps time for you to stop insulting people on this list, most of whom, like me, you don't know and therefore can't fathom. People are trying to send you signals on this but you are ignoring them. Politeness and civility apparently do not faze you. I am wondering how you expect people to accept your arguments even as you call them names. I am not sure that folks on this list are willing to put up with this kind of behavior indefinitely.

--Terry Ponick  



From schloss  Tue Sep 18 19:50:55 2001
From: schloss (Christopher Walker)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 00:50:55 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] They can't see
Message-ID: <019701c1409c$cddd6900$53ef28c3@ssolhcs>

Paul:

<snip>
I don't think it's quite true to say that the US can't bear much
self-criticism.  With our free press, the internet, and diverse political
and cultural groups, we undergo a daily self-examination [PL]
<snip>

I'd like to amplify, briefly, what I meant by 'self criticism' in this
context. There are 'diverse political and cultural groups', as you say.
However, the Constitution emphasises the right to speak and not (say) the
duty to allow someone a hearing or to listen to what is said. The result is
a hubbub in which groups talk within themselves or into the public aether
more than to other groups. At any rate, there are precious few paradigm
shifts.

About 20 years ago I sat in a Dutch railway carriage as a young American
told his friends (and everyone else) about his travels. In this, that and
the other country the people were 'very neat'. Eventually he was interrupted
by a Dutch and somewhat drunk fellow passenger who shook his fist at him,
haranguing him as 'an inconsiderate American' and (more curiously) for
'promoting pornography'. When the man left, the monologue resumed. But with
this difference. Now people were 'very strange': he had been shouted at in
Ouarzazate, bellowed at in Oman; he had been spat at in Nepal, mooned at in
Nauru. And this, more or less, is how I read the trajectory traced by the
Nordinger article.

Christopher Walker





From alphavil  Tue Sep 18 20:23:38 2001
From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:23:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: SF & DC
References: <9b.1b161ac9.28d92795@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3BA7E589.3E2CEE9F@ix.netcom.com>

Well, good for Jack Foley. He found a not so vanity publisher. You had me crawling through a mountain of Small Press stuff. My copy is Pantograph Press copywright 2000. I have both "O Powerful Western Star" and "Foley's Books: California Rebels, Beats and Radicals." Both by Pantograph. Did you call me a liar?

And while were on the subject of that vibrant Washington scene, Remember Mike Lally and Some of Us Press. You could climb a narrow flight of stairs and hear 20 somethings pour their hearts out about their girlfriend's bisexuality while 20 blocks away Lyndon Johnson was giving the order to bomb Vientiane and the Plaine of Jarres. Lally eventually moved to NY and then to Hollywood where he got a spot on ER and held open readings where Hollywood celebraties would come and read their poetry about their girlfriends bisexuality while Ronny Hi Colonic was snoozing through Admiral Poindexter's blue print for Iran-contra. Well after all some things are timeless.

Or howsaabout, (?) Lefkowitz and the Writer's Center where poems about bisexuality would be too heavy. The Writer's Center: Drivel Center for 40 years.

Or how about Jacqueline Potter and the Joaquin Miller Cabin Readings. Its been 150 years, but the best poet ever to read there is still Joaquin Miller. Now, that's a vibrant community. CP


TerryP17 at aol.com wrote:

> Carlo wrote:
>
> <<Terry, sweetie. I've got the "book" right here. And I read it as soon as Jack
> gave it to me. Second printing?>>
>
> Sorry my friend, I've tagged you on this. I have a review copy and the book is just out, dated 2001, officially released this month by Scarlet Tanager Press and edited by Jack Foley. It is a first edition, first printing as any bibliographer would know by looking at the title page and inside title page. You could not have read it two years ago as you alleged in a previous post--the book didn't exist. Or perhaps Jack sent you a galley proof. Even so, that would have happened only a few months ago. If anyone on this board doubts my word, check the current reference for the book on Amazon.com. You can dig it up by accessing Jack Foley.
>
> <<"Whimpering, soporific drivel'? I thought that's what the Washington School
> called itself. You in particular are a walking case study in the tedium and
> boredom of Washington's poetry and everything else, esp. the paucity of jazz.
> The proof is in the puddin'
> as they say. If it ain't obvious to you, obviously you are part of the
> problem because it is obvious to every body else without any acumen.>>
>
> IS there a Washington School? I think not. But there are fine poets here, from Anthony Hecht and Henry Taylor (well known nationally) to Mike Schaffner and Miles Moore, excellent local poets with quite a following, and Eric Hendrixson, an up and comer. Or my old college friend Greg Orfalea, frequently published, and editor of a fine collection of Arab-American poetry out of the University of Colorado Press as I recall. Or, going a bit south to Richmond, Joe Awad, Virginia's former poet laureate and a frequent visitor to the area. Greg and Joe, by the way, spearheaded what became the wonderful Kahlil Ghibran Memorial Park on Mass Ave. near the VP's mansion. Khalil is not my cup of tea, but this is as nice a memorial as you'll see to a poet, and is largely the result of Greg's and Joe's efforts. I am not sure that we could characterize these area poets as writing sophomoric drivel--if indeed you could ever back up your assertions or define what sophomoric drivel is. You can ca!
> tch some of these poets once a mon
> th at Arlington's Iota club on Sunday evenings. You can find others, on occasion, at Mariposa up in College Park, MD, or, sometimes, in Politics and Prose bookstore or in the small house in Rock Creek Park which holds a regular reading program in the summer. Occasionally, nationally-known poets read in the downtown Borders. Roughly once a month, New England poet Richard Moore holds a workshop out in Leesburg, VA. As in any town, there are a lot of bad poets here, but there are many good ones, and I'm not sure that tarring an entire town with a bad rep is provable or justifiable.
>
> And what do you know about Washington's music scene, really? What could the alleged "paucity of jazz" possibly have to do with me, personally? What do you know that enables you to make this connection? Jazz has mostly migrated to the Northern Virginia suburbs where it is going strong in clubs out as far as Sterling, especially in Reston's Market Street Bar & Grill. In Falls Church, the old State Theater frequently features live R&B and jazz in a nightclub setting with the added attraction of saving a local landmark from the wrecking ball. In DC, the 9:30 Club still occasionally does jazz, and Blues Alley almost always has the top acts although it is pricey. Local radio has become a wasteland of the conglomerates, alas, but there is always my friend Rob Bamberger's "Hot Jazz Saturday Night" on WAMU-FM, 88.5, from 7-10 PM featuring selections from vintage jazz from the teens to more recent times along with his excellent commentary. It's cheaper than going to the clubs. (He has!
>  written many of the cover notes f
> or the Smithsonian's recorded jazz collection of CDs). And the Kennedy Center's "Women In Jazz" festival held late every spring is a fountain of top female jazz talent ranging from old favorites like Marian MacPartland to jazz drummer and big band leader Sherry Miricle and other interesting talents, all brought in by the great Dr. Billy Taylor. Jazz is not what it should be in this town, but it is here nonetheless and to imply that that is not so is to be in error.
>
> I think that it is perhaps time for you to stop insulting people on this list, most of whom, like me, you don't know and therefore can't fathom. People are trying to send you signals on this but you are ignoring them. Politeness and civility apparently do not faze you. I am wondering how you expect people to accept your arguments even as you call them names. I am not sure that folks on this list are willing to put up with this kind of behavior indefinitely.
>
> --Terry Ponick
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From duemer  Tue Sep 18 20:23:53 2001
From: duemer (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:23:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] rude
References: <F86UezXlCvoWA59DZLK00001447@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <011901c140a1$5fea7dc0$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

I find it amusing that in the context of recent list discourse I have been
castigated for being "rude" by dead poet. I would only note that rudeness
has a long & honorable pedagogical history that extends from the foundations
of Western philosophy to Zen. Socrates comes to mind, or Samuel Johnson.
Numerous Zen masters. I don't claim the intelligence or enlightenment of any
of the above, but I am a teacher & I have found that a certain amount of
rudeness at the right moment cuts through the bullshit. We would surely be a
more ethical society if we were not so damn nice to each other, if we could
cure ourselves of the disease of sentimentality. Rudeness is the right
response to laziness.

jd
======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
======================








From duemer  Tue Sep 18 20:33:04 2001
From: duemer (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:33:04 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: SF & CA
References: <9b.1b161ac9.28d92795@aol.com> <3BA7E589.3E2CEE9F@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <012001c140a2$a5cade60$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

I'm a third generation Californian--I thought Gioia was from NY. I know for
a fact he lived in Something-on-Hudson for many years. I resent his
pontificating--I consider it a form of colonialism & I wish he'd haul his
elitist butt out of my home state.
======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
======================








From alphavil  Tue Sep 18 20:43:35 2001
From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:43:35 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Teleschmucketers
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDEF7@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <3BA7EA37.2E4DEB4@ix.netcom.com>

Winning over is a strategy---a sales strategy as you so nicely stepped
into it. Poets shouldn't be hustlers, politicians, con men, ad men and
cheats. Though we've had more than our share. This tendency to defraud
for some little poetry reward contributes to your poetry being dishonest
and weak. Poets as telemarketers! Have you met "Langauge is a Pigeon
Coop" Grumman yet." Besides if I didn't shout, I'd go right over your
heads and that's from the voice of experience.  CP

"Graham, David" wrote:

> Amen, Finnegan.
>
> ===================
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> ===================
>
> > ----------
> > From:         JforJames at aol.com
> > Reply To:     new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > Sent:         Tuesday, September 18, 2001 3:20 PM
> > To:   new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > Subject:      [New-Poetry] Open Question
> >
> > Are many people convinced or won over by your position
> > when you call them know-nothings
> > while suggesting they are either hopelessly brainwashed
> > or so uninformed (compared to you)
> > they shall never be capable of catching on?
> > If so, I'm surprised the telemarketers haven't adopted
> > this persuasive approach.
> > IFinnegan
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From adead_poet  Tue Sep 18 21:21:06 2001
From: adead_poet (dead poet)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:21:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] rude
Message-ID: <F260AzdfTVSxzW234xO000003b1@hotmail.com>

perhaps someone on the list could help me see what bullshit joe here was 
trying to cut through. (one has to wonder how he teaches when the pursuit of 
knowledge is bullshit)  i was attacked for asking if anyone knew of 
information online. i wasn't making any statement on poetry or politics. 
just my laziness at preferring to make a copy at home rather than at the 
library. perhaps some people are jealous of the arguments going on here and 
have to pick a fight. i hear over and over about the current state of 
poetry, and these essays are some of those that discuss its current state.

One of the things that I read over and over is that poetry is no longer in 
touch with everyone, that only other poets and academics read poetry. I?ve 
seen huge arguments for and against certain ?schools? of poetry. I?ve seen 
it get to the point of name calling and what looks to be almost hatred. I?ve 
seen people put down poets, like Billy Collins, because his poetry is 
?easy.? Accessible does not mean it has no meaning or importance. I?ve seen 
some say that just about every style of poetry is a waste of time, except of 
course for their own. And now I?ve seen rudeness towards someone who is 
seeking to learn more. If you admit you like one poet, you get this group 
sneering at you, if you like, the other group calls you a fool. And you 
wonder why poetry is no longer important to most Americans.

I?ll tell what the problem is with poetry today. There is very much an us 
versus them feeling. I?m not exactly an outsider to the poetry world, but 
enough of one to feel like one of the thems. And it isn?t just because of 
this one guy. Things like this have happened before. Not necessarily to me, 
but I?ve seen it. All I?ve tried to do is learn more. I?ve sent letters and 
emails to poets I?ve met, those that have told me sure, go ahead and write 
to me. I?ve sent them to poets whose poetry I like, just because I figure 
they?d appreciate knowing there is another person who likes their work. Or 
maybe I have a question about a poem. All I really want to do is to talk 
about poetry to those who know it. But overall, it?s been pretty much a cold 
shoulder, I don?t even try anymore. I had one guy accuse me of trying to 
steal his identity. All I wanted to know was a little bit of background and 
where to find more of his poems. (And for those of you who seem to have it 
in for dana gioia, I?ll say one thing about him, he?s one of the few that 
hasn?t patronized me, who didn?t turn away, and the only poet that takes the 
few minutes it takes to respond to my letters.) I know that not everyone in 
the community is like that. But there are an awful lot of elitist among you. 
I?m thankful that the first poet I met was sam gwynn. I guess he saw that I 
had a love for poetry. He?s always answered my questions or pointed me in 
the right direction. And my lack of money has stopped me. The man makes 
copies, loans me books, sometimes even gives me books but never tells me to 
suck it up and buy it. Even though I can?t afford school right now, he still 
looks at my work and helps me to improve it. It doesn?t matter that he has 
other things going on or that he isn?t getting paid. His work may fall into 
a certain school, but I?ve never heard him slam another school just because 
he didn?t write that style. I don?t think he allows the ?school? of poetry 
to even influence whether he likes the poem or not. Maybe some of you should 
take a lesson from this man. You might not alienate so many. Or is it that 
some of you worry that there are too many readers of poetry?

>From: "Joseph Duemer" <duemer at clarkson.edu>
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] rude
>Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:23:53 -0400
>
>I find it amusing that in the context of recent list discourse I have been
>castigated for being "rude" by dead poet. I would only note that rudeness
>has a long & honorable pedagogical history that extends from the 
>foundations
>of Western philosophy to Zen. Socrates comes to mind, or Samuel Johnson.
>Numerous Zen masters. I don't claim the intelligence or enlightenment of 
>any
>of the above, but I am a teacher & I have found that a certain amount of
>rudeness at the right moment cuts through the bullshit. We would surely be 
>a
>more ethical society if we were not so damn nice to each other, if we could
>cure ourselves of the disease of sentimentality. Rudeness is the right
>response to laziness.
>
>jd
>======================
>Joseph Duemer
>School of Liberal Arts, 5750
>Clarkson University
>Potsdam NY 13699
>315.268.3967
>======================
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From bardo  Tue Sep 18 21:31:40 2001
From: bardo (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 21:31:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] last breath
Message-ID: <002201c140aa$d5c107e0$ef7dbd18@win98>

last breath





if I could burst into flame, fire with fire,

if a tongue of flame would rise, eloquent,

over my head, to quench the smoldering,

underground black veins of anthropocide;



if I could flood a fuselage with words,

water to drown witches & float the rest

to Ararat, emblem of all ships since,

reverse the way witches always get tried;



if earth itself would gnaw & devour

the lines on maps & not plow lines on flesh,

if air could deny the airfoil lift

lifting a secret hell into the sky;



the heart would break still, but break to unite;

platitude turn proverb, hater relent.







Daniel Zimmerman

9.18.01

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From grahamd  Tue Sep 18 22:54:52 2001
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 21:54:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Literary Regions
Message-ID: <200109190251.f8J2psg24865@mx8.mx.voyager.net>

A very interesting mass market anthology came out years ago:  *A Geography
of Poets*, edited by Edward Field (1979).  One of its premises was that
poetry culture in the US was no longer unified, but broken into regional
groupings.  New York City is no longer the center in any identifiable way. 
American poetry was now "grass roots" poetry, reflecting the "places,
issues, and language of [the poets'] individual lives" in places such as
Arizona or Colorado.  

So the book divided its poets (200 of them) into sections:  The Northwest,
San Francisco & Northern California, Southwest, Great Plains, Midwest, the
South, etc.  New York City got its own section.  

It was a lively and interesting anthology (later revised and reprinted, I
believe) but there were problems.  One was that poets move around so much. 
The book's scrupulous groupings by geography were almost instantly outdated.
 And many identifications had more to do with the academic job market than
any intrinsic poetic qualities.  That quintessential Floridian poet, Donald
Justice, was of course grouped in The Great Plains, while obviously southern
poets  A. R. Ammons and Robert Penn Warren were both, of course,
Northeastern.  

Another problem was that there really were few identifiable regional
"voices" to be heard, finally.  No, what came through loud and clear in all
regions was, of course, Edward Field's quirky taste.  It was remarkable how
unified American poetry seemed, in this accounting.  

Now I am a lover of authentic regional voices--both Robert Frost and William
Carlos Williams interest me particularly as being steeped in particular
places.  But generalizations about regional style--even elegantly phrased
ones ones like Dana Gioia's--in my mind are faulty until proven otherwise. 
Big difference between *locating* Williams in northern Jersey, and talking
about "New Jersey poets."

Had an enlightening experience once, teaching Frost's "After Apple-Picking"
to freshmen in Raleigh, NC.  The discussion was stalled for reasons I
couldn't fathom--until it dawned on me that (as I nattered on about The
Fall), that few in the room knew that autumn was apple-picking season.  No,
you just go to Kroger's and get apples any old season.  

_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________




From TerryP17  Tue Sep 18 23:04:20 2001
From: TerryP17 (TerryP17 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 23:04:20 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: SF-DC
Message-ID: <34.1b18e1d8.28d96534@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/18/01 8:29:09 PM, Carlo writes:

>Well, good for Jack Foley. He found a not so vanity publisher. You had
>me crawling through a mountain of Small Press stuff. My copy is Pantograph
>Press copywright 2000. I have both "O Powerful Western Star" and "Foley's
>Books: California Rebels, Beats and Radicals." Both by Pantograph. Did
>you call me a liar?

The book we are discussing is "Fallen Western Star" Wars." Neither book you 
mention is what is under discussion here, we are discussing the book focused 
on Gioia's essay and responses to it, which is barely out this month. I am 
not sure you have enough information on Scarlet Tanager or any other press to 
accurately label it "not so vanity," whatever that actually means. And your 
previous post implied that Jack was a friend of yours who "gave" you one of 
his books. So why are you now dissing him? Readers of these posts, those few 
who are left, can form their own opinions on our respective characters. Since 
the rest of my previous post was essentially ignored, this thread has clearly 
exhausted itself and this is my last comment on it, although I'm sure you 
will have the last word. 

--TLP  



From Rsgwynn1  Tue Sep 18 23:11:07 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 23:11:07 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] rude
Message-ID: <16c.1192a97.28d966cb@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/18/2001 7:34:24 PM Central Daylight Time, 
duemer at clarkson.edu writes:


> I find it amusing that in the context of recent list discourse I have been
> castigated for being "rude" by dead poet. I would only note that rudeness
> has a long & honorable pedagogical history that extends from the foundations
> of Western philosophy to Zen. Socrates comes to mind, or Samuel Johnson.
> Numerous Zen masters. I don't claim the intelligence or enlightenment of any
> of the above, but I am a teacher & I have found that a certain amount of
> rudeness at the right moment cuts through the bullshit. We would surely be a
> more ethical society if we were not so damn nice to each other, if we could
> cure ourselves of the disease of sentimentality. Rudeness is the right
> response to laziness.
> 
> 

That may be so, but it is the wrong response to an honest question, as any 
good teacher should have learned.
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From CobbCoStudioArts  Tue Sep 18 23:12:58 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 20:12:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] rude
Message-ID: <20010919031259.0990036F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From Rsgwynn1  Tue Sep 18 23:15:38 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 23:15:38 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: SF & CA
Message-ID: <127.4528e41.28d967da@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/18/2001 7:43:21 PM Central Daylight Time, 
duemer at clarkson.edu writes:


> 
> I'm a third generation Californian--I thought Gioia was from NY. I know for
> a fact he lived in Something-on-Hudson for many years. I resent his
> pontificating--I consider it a form of colonialism & I wish he'd haul his
> elitist butt out of my home state.
> 

Dana Gioia was born in Hawthorne, a Los Angeles working-class suburb 
immortalized in "Pulp Fiction."  He did his undergraduate work at Stanford 
and returned there for the MBA.  He is a native Californian, and has lived 
there for over half his life, roughly 30 years out of 50.  I think that 
anyone who has read Gioia's critical writings over the years (as opposed to 
"inhaled" them) would recognize that his consistent stance has been populist, 
not elitist.  If he likes my poetry, how could he be elitist?
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From Rsgwynn1  Tue Sep 18 23:29:58 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 23:29:58 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Literary Regions
Message-ID: <a2.19a05fbd.28d96b36@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/18/2001 9:56:09 PM Central Daylight Time, 
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu writes:


> A very interesting mass market anthology came out years ago:  *A Geography
> of Poets*, edited by Edward Field (1979).  One of its premises was that
> poetry culture in the US was no longer unified, but broken into regional
> groupings.  New York City is no longer the center in any identifiable way. 
> American poetry was now "grass roots" poetry, reflecting the "places,
> issues, and language of [the poets'] individual lives" in places such as
> Arizona or Colorado.  
> 

Field did a second Geography of Poets (University of Arkansas Press) a decade 
or so ago.  I liked his taste too, not in the least because he included a 
poem of mine, "A Short History of the New South."  I don't think of region as 
as huge an influence as it might have been fifty years ago, but there are a 
few who remain resolutely attached to "local conditions."  I think of poets 
like Dave Etter (Illinois) and Walt McDonald (west Texas) in this regard.  

Field is a wonderful poet, by the way.  Variety Photoplays is a delightful 
book.  Is he still alive?
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From moira_russell  Wed Sep 19 02:22:07 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 22:22:07 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Literary Regions
Message-ID: <F103wFCHOzyfyz5b6KZ0000275f@hotmail.com>

>Had an enlightening experience once, teaching Frost's "After Apple-Picking"
>to freshmen in Raleigh, NC.  The discussion was stalled for reasons I
>couldn't fathom--until it dawned on me that (as I nattered on about The
>Fall), that few in the room knew that autumn was apple-picking season.  No,
>you just go to Kroger's and get apples any old season.

//betraying regionalism//

Umm...Kroger's?

(Now if you had said "Albertson's"....)

Hate to harp on Wordsworth, but when being force-fed "I wandered lonely as a 
cloud" etc. etc. I could never visualize the damned daffodils.  Dandelions 
or California poppies always appeared in my head, which didn't seem to fit.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA



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From moira_russell  Wed Sep 19 02:23:56 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 22:23:56 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Literary Regions
Message-ID: <F32DQVXwR1IM9QX2CTp00002938@hotmail.com>

>So the book divided its poets (200 of them) into sections:  The Northwest,
>San Francisco & Northern California, Southwest, Great Plains, Midwest, the
>South, etc.  New York City got its own section.

Did anyone make a case for T.S. Eliot as the quintessential Southern, even 
Agrarian, poet? she asked eagerly.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

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From moira_russell  Wed Sep 19 02:26:59 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 22:26:59 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: SF & CA
Message-ID: <F19leTT6dE50HmSd71W00006442@hotmail.com>

>If he likes my poetry, how could he be elitist?

(I am so glad you are on this list, Sam.)

Alas, you obviously do not recognize the fact that ALL formal poetry is 
inherently ELITIST.  What could be more a symbol of imperialism than form 
and meter except perhaps possibly a goddamn fleur-des-lis?

Moi


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From moira_russell  Wed Sep 19 02:30:39 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 22:30:39 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: SF & CA
Message-ID: <F28JP7Wp7zuUquIOFUH00002a05@hotmail.com>

It's another one of those oh shit kodak moments.  Please ignore the private 
message sent to public list by accident.

Unless you know how to spell "fleur-des-lis," which I obviously don't.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA


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From lcrespi  Wed Sep 19 02:43:57 2001
From: lcrespi (Linda Crespi)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 23:43:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Snakeskin
In-Reply-To: <F32DQVXwR1IM9QX2CTp00002938@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20010919064357.41361.qmail@web13902.mail.yahoo.com>


 
  George Simmers has asked me to spread the word that there seems to be a problem with the nameserver or whatever that handles his domain name www.snakeskin.org.uk
If you can't access the zine at that address, you can always catch it at http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~simmers
Linda


The Crespi Page is at:
http://snakeskin.org.uk/crespi.htm
New work appears usually in Snakeskin Webzine: 
http://snakeskin.org.uk


---------------------------------
Terrorist Attacks on U.S. - How can you help?
Donate cash, emergency relief information inYahoo! News.
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From aprentiss  Tue Sep 18 10:39:17 2001
From: aprentiss (Prentiss, Amber)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 10:39:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] more essays needed & Sept. 11th.
Message-ID: <E7C06C25D501D511BA9900508BB82AA90DE19C@ness.agnesscott.edu>

 
That's if and only if one's university remembers more than poetry that was
created by people other than the long dead and maybe one faculty member.
Mine does not. Its holdings are likely not terribly better than the main
public library, except in literary criticism and mainstream litmags. Now,
/criticism/ belongs to the  university, at least in part because I don't
know if many other people want to be bothered with it. 
***
So what're we supposed to do? Personally, internationalization is an ugly
word and not a pretty concept, but I'm not strapping myself to the front
revolving door at the offices of Coca-Cola. (And I don't think doing so
would help much, either.) Now, I'm glad that maybe we'll have a more
sensitive foreign policy, and Lord knows, we needed one. Still, I also don't
think we belong to the only country that's done its share of hurt whether or
not you supported it or were old enough to know anything about it. 

-Amber
-----Original Message-----
From: bob cooper
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: 9/18/01 9:33 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] more essays needed & Sept. 11th.

This is not just to support "dead poet" - who isn't dead, but some of
you 
seem to be trying to finish off - but to address an attitude! (Why do
first 
posts sometimes, if not always, seem to need aggression? I mean
"address" is 
such a non me, aggressively toned, word...)

I remember a while ago I simply read (and ignored) the comments posted
about 
how "well heeled" (well affluent, well educated) US poets are (in your 
opinions). But that isn't the case for everyone who takes poetry
seriously. 
Want a history lesson? You won't get one from me - I'll just knock you
down 
a smidgen in knowledge and education.
Is it acceptable that poetry is Owned by Universities (written by their 
employees, locked away in their libraries)? And only those who can get 
access to University Libraries ought to get access to poetry? Part 
ownership/sponsorship may be OK... But in the US people may not yet have

dreamed of something like the National Poetry Libraries that exist in
the 
United Kingdom for instance. (If you don't want to be hated so much for
your 
attitude, start listening, start dreaming (more than the American Dream)
and 
changing).
I say what I say because I've been to University (where poets be), I've
also 
queued in the Benefits Agency - do you call it Welfare - where poets be
too. 
One, a canny mate, was once telling me he'd made a bit because some 
University over in the States had bought all his scraps of paper... But 
paying for privilege like that is short-term (and I don't just mean he
soon 
spent it).
Like Jason I seem to be staring into a widening gap.

And another comment, on your other current obsession, why the US is
being 
attacked...
One thing I'm finding difficult to hear is the way "The World Trade
Centre" 
is just being used to name a couple of buildings. I want to hear the
word 
"World" said with a bit more appreciation of what the word means:
because, 
when the place was still there, it included representatives of many
millions 
of people (and excluded many millions too).
The World Trade Centre - with people of 162 nationalities, from over 40 
countries - may have been targeted and destroyed (by men in business
suits, 
with families and education) because of the way World Trade is
controlled 
and run, not just because it's (on land bought cheap from the natives)
in 
Manhattan. (If, as the days go on, any of you see coverage of funerals 
elsewhere in the world - in how many of the other countries where the 
victims came from - then that may pacify me a little; may modify and
soften 
what I now feel. I you do, help me, let me know. If nothing's broadcast
then 
it's that attitude again!)
I sense it's important for people in the US to recognise that not all of

those countries think that American attitudes to World Trade should
rule. 
I'm wondering if some of the injustices that prompted the attack will
have 
to be worked at and changed. Grieving (which, in this case, is 
international, not just for individuals) is a process that includes 
(initial) anger, but it must also lead to (eventual and, hopefully, 
beneficial) change.

Y see, I'm a fairly tolerant kinda guy, but I think some of you'se
oughta 
realise who y hurtin, what y doin (as poets to other poets, and - as a 
nation with an attitude - to people elsewhere). I'm not tarring y all
with 
these two brushes, but - from how I stare at my screen (like you're doin

now) - I sorta see there are faces where the tar oughta stick. OK?

Bob





>From: "dead poet" <adead_poet at hotmail.com>
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] more essays needed
>Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:21:19 -0500
>
>the reason i'm not in school is because i had to pay for the last
semester 
>i attended, and i haven't had the money to take care of all of it. as
soon 
>as it is paid off....

>> > >

etc. etc. etc.

>> > >
>> > >>Dear Dead Poet,
>> > >>you ever try the library? That's the big
>>building where they keep the
>> > >>books?
>> > >

>> >___________________________________________________
>>______________
>> > >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
>>http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>> > >
>> > >_______________________________________________
>> > >New-Poetry mailing list
>> > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> >
>> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>____________________________________________________
>>_____________
>> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
>>http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > New-Poetry mailing list
>> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>_______________________________________________
>>New-Poetry mailing list
>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From JforJames  Wed Sep 19 08:35:59 2001
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:35:59 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Teleschmucketers
Message-ID: <12c.4cb6b9c.28d9eb2f@aol.com>

In a message dated 9/18/01 8:51:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes:

<< I'd go right over your
 heads and that's from the voice of experience. >>
Carlo,
Yes, as often happens when you talk at, and not to, people.
Finnegan



From alphavil  Wed Sep 19 08:48:53 2001
From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:48:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rood
References: <34.1b18e1d8.28d96534@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3BA89434.CA93673D@ix.netcom.com>

Essays in earlier book.

TerryP17 at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 9/18/01 8:29:09 PM, Carlo writes:
>
> >Well, good for Jack Foley. He found a not so vanity publisher. You had
> >me crawling through a mountain of Small Press stuff. My copy is Pantograph
> >Press copywright 2000. I have both "O Powerful Western Star" and "Foley's
> >Books: California Rebels, Beats and Radicals." Both by Pantograph. Did
> >you call me a liar?
>
> The book we are discussing is "Fallen Western Star" Wars." Neither book you
> mention is what is under discussion here, we are discussing the book focused
> on Gioia's essay and responses to it, which is barely out this month. I am
> not sure you have enough information on Scarlet Tanager or any other press to
> accurately label it "not so vanity," whatever that actually means. And your
> previous post implied that Jack was a friend of yours who "gave" you one of
> his books. So why are you now dissing him? Readers of these posts, those few
> who are left, can form their own opinions on our respective characters. Since
> the rest of my previous post was essentially ignored, this thread has clearly
> exhausted itself and this is my last comment on it, although I'm sure you
> will have the last word.
>
> --TLP
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From halvard  Wed Sep 19 09:53:46 2001
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 09:53:46 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Literary Regions
In-Reply-To: <a2.19a05fbd.28d96b36@cs.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIELPEBAA.halvard@earthlink.net>


> Field is a wonderful poet, by the way.  Variety Photoplays is a delightful book.  Is he still alive? 

Absolutely! Edward lives just a couple floors below Lynda and me, and
we see him often. He's still writing and publishing.

Hal     "If you want to make God laugh,
           tell him what you're doing tomorrow."
                        --Michael Judge, Chaplain, NYFD

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html




From TerryP17  Wed Sep 19 10:04:30 2001
From: TerryP17 (TerryP17 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 10:04:30 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #446 - 9 msgs
Message-ID: <10.12b44e06.28d9fff3@aol.com>

Joe,

<<I'm a third generation Californian--I thought Gioia was from NY. I know for
a fact he lived in Something-on-Hudson for many years. I resent his
pontificating--I consider it a form of colonialism & I wish he'd haul his
elitist butt out of my home state.>>

Appreciate your fine sentiments, but Gioia himself is at least a second-generation Californian and has merely returned home from Hastings-on-Hudson. I'm afraid you were and are neighbors, so I guess you'll have to deal with it. His elitist butt is likely to remain in place.

--Terry Ponick




From paul.lake  Tue Sep 18 22:41:38 2001
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 21:41:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: SF & CA
In-Reply-To: <012001c140a2$a5cade60$18724342@twcny.rr.com>
Message-ID: <B7CD6EC0.1C8B%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 9/18/01 7:33 PM, Joseph Duemer at duemer at clarkson.edu wrote:

> I'm a third generation Californian--I thought Gioia was from NY. I know for
> a fact he lived in Something-on-Hudson for many years. I resent his
> pontificating--I consider it a form of colonialism & I wish he'd haul his
> elitist butt out of my home state.
> ======================
> Joseph Duemer
> School of Liberal Arts, 5750
> Clarkson University
> Potsdam NY 13699
> 315.268.3967
> ======================
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
Dana is a native Californian, from L. A., with a Mexican mother.

Paul Lake




From Rsgwynn1  Wed Sep 19 11:28:00 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:28:00 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Literary Regions
Message-ID: <10f.56df4af.28da1380@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/19/2001 1:24:48 AM Central Daylight Time, 
moira_russell at hotmail.com writes:


> 
> Did anyone make a case for T.S. Eliot as the quintessential Southern, even 
> Agrarian, poet? she asked eagerly.
> 
> Moira Russell
> 

I think it was Eliot who said that Frost was no more a New England poet than 
Goethe was a poet of the Rhineland.
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From groggydays  Wed Sep 19 11:39:31 2001
From: groggydays (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 16:39:31 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] more essays needed & Sept. 11th.
References: <E7C06C25D501D511BA9900508BB82AA90DE19C@ness.agnesscott.edu>
Message-ID: <OE715dbMZ29cXEAY6Sj00000660@hotmail.com>

> dreamed of something like the National Poetry Libraries that exist in
> the United Kingdom for instance.

The Poetry Library is quite good BUT if you don't live in the London area
(and London, of course, is not a small place) it becomes a non-resource as
it does not loan books via the post. In theory, you can request books from
it via local libraries but the Byzantine complexities of the Inter-Library
Loan Scheme (I think that's its correct title) make that all but impossible.

There is the excellent Northern Poetry Library at Morpeth which will loan by
post, but its collection is limited to British post-war poets only and is
not exhaustive. The Scottish Poetry Library does have regional centres
altho' I don't know how well stocked they are.

Best

David Bircumshaw

Leicester, England

A Chide's Alphabet
www.chidesplay.8m.com

Painting Without Numbers
www.paintstuff.20m.com/default.htm
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/default.htm




----- Original Message -----
From: "Prentiss, Amber" <aprentiss at agnesscott.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 3:39 PM
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] more essays needed & Sept. 11th.


>
> That's if and only if one's university remembers more than poetry that was
> created by people other than the long dead and maybe one faculty member.
> Mine does not. Its holdings are likely not terribly better than the main
> public library, except in literary criticism and mainstream litmags. Now,
> /criticism/ belongs to the  university, at least in part because I don't
> know if many other people want to be bothered with it.
> ***
> So what're we supposed to do? Personally, internationalization is an ugly
> word and not a pretty concept, but I'm not strapping myself to the front
> revolving door at the offices of Coca-Cola. (And I don't think doing so
> would help much, either.) Now, I'm glad that maybe we'll have a more
> sensitive foreign policy, and Lord knows, we needed one. Still, I also
don't
> think we belong to the only country that's done its share of hurt whether
or
> not you supported it or were old enough to know anything about it.
>
> -Amber
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bob cooper
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 9/18/01 9:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] more essays needed & Sept. 11th.
>
> This is not just to support "dead poet" - who isn't dead, but some of
> you
> seem to be trying to finish off - but to address an attitude! (Why do
> first
> posts sometimes, if not always, seem to need aggression? I mean
> "address" is
> such a non me, aggressively toned, word...)
>
> I remember a while ago I simply read (and ignored) the comments posted
> about
> how "well heeled" (well affluent, well educated) US poets are (in your
> opinions). But that isn't the case for everyone who takes poetry
> seriously.
> Want a history lesson? You won't get one from me - I'll just knock you
> down
> a smidgen in knowledge and education.
> Is it acceptable that poetry is Owned by Universities (written by their
> employees, locked away in their libraries)? And only those who can get
> access to University Libraries ought to get access to poetry? Part
> ownership/sponsorship may be OK... But in the US people may not yet have
>
> dreamed of something like the National Poetry Libraries that exist in
> the
> United Kingdom for instance. (If you don't want to be hated so much for
> your
> attitude, start listening, start dreaming (more than the American Dream)
> and
> changing).
> I say what I say because I've been to University (where poets be), I've
> also
> queued in the Benefits Agency - do you call it Welfare - where poets be
> too.
> One, a canny mate, was once telling me he'd made a bit because some
> University over in the States had bought all his scraps of paper... But
> paying for privilege like that is short-term (and I don't just mean he
> soon
> spent it).
> Like Jason I seem to be staring into a widening gap.
>
> And another comment, on your other current obsession, why the US is
> being
> attacked...
> One thing I'm finding difficult to hear is the way "The World Trade
> Centre"
> is just being used to name a couple of buildings. I want to hear the
> word
> "World" said with a bit more appreciation of what the word means:
> because,
> when the place was still there, it included representatives of many
> millions
> of people (and excluded many millions too).
> The World Trade Centre - with people of 162 nationalities, from over 40
> countries - may have been targeted and destroyed (by men in business
> suits,
> with families and education) because of the way World Trade is
> controlled
> and run, not just because it's (on land bought cheap from the natives)
> in
> Manhattan. (If, as the days go on, any of you see coverage of funerals
> elsewhere in the world - in how many of the other countries where the
> victims came from - then that may pacify me a little; may modify and
> soften
> what I now feel. I you do, help me, let me know. If nothing's broadcast
> then
> it's that attitude again!)
> I sense it's important for people in the US to recognise that not all of
>
> those countries think that American attitudes to World Trade should
> rule.
> I'm wondering if some of the injustices that prompted the attack will
> have
> to be worked at and changed. Grieving (which, in this case, is
> international, not just for individuals) is a process that includes
> (initial) anger, but it must also lead to (eventual and, hopefully,
> beneficial) change.
>
> Y see, I'm a fairly tolerant kinda guy, but I think some of you'se
> oughta
> realise who y hurtin, what y doin (as poets to other poets, and - as a
> nation with an attitude - to people elsewhere). I'm not tarring y all
> with
> these two brushes, but - from how I stare at my screen (like you're doin
>
> now) - I sorta see there are faces where the tar oughta stick. OK?
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "dead poet" <adead_poet at hotmail.com>
> >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] more essays needed
> >Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:21:19 -0500
> >
> >the reason i'm not in school is because i had to pay for the last
> semester
> >i attended, and i haven't had the money to take care of all of it. as
> soon
> >as it is paid off....
>
> >> > >
>
> etc. etc. etc.
>
> >> > >
> >> > >>Dear Dead Poet,
> >> > >>you ever try the library? That's the big
> >>building where they keep the
> >> > >>books?
> >> > >
>
> >> >___________________________________________________
> >>______________
> >> > >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
> >>http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> >> > >
> >> > >_______________________________________________
> >> > >New-Poetry mailing list
> >> > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> >
> >> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>____________________________________________________
> >>_____________
> >> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
> >>http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > New-Poetry mailing list
> >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>New-Poetry mailing list
> >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
> http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
> http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From halvard  Wed Sep 19 11:37:08 2001
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:37:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Eating words &c.
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEMCEBAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Jerry Falwell isn't the only one eating his words nowadays. Karlheinz
Stockhausen speaks (as you'll see in the NYT articles just below my
sign-off) and issues an instant retraction, as can be well understood.
Many others, I suspect, will are and will be, for various reasons, eating
their words in coming days, weeks, and months: myself included
perhaps, for I think I know what Stockhausen had in mind when he
called the WTC attacks a great work of art--no, "the greatest work
of art ever."

Art and great disasters have some similar effects. They slow and very
nearly stop time. We stop and stare at images of bodies hurtling from
towers as we do at Rembrandt portraits in our museums, or as we
sit in the dark for hours, listening to an orchestra or a string quartet
or a rock group or jazz band. Sometimes, if we're lucky (or unlucky,
depending on how one looks at it) we emerge altered, changed,
sometimes shaken to the depths of our being, as much of the world
was this last week.

Then we come out of it--out of the museum, the concert hall, the
dive, the TV haze in which we've been immersed, and we look
around and find the same streets, the same traffic, the same old
living room or bedroom or den--same but somehow different.

For those of us in New York, we look south along familiar streets
and avenues and those two towers are no longer there. And there
are new things there--faces of the missing plastered to walls and
trees and mailboxes, clusters of offerings and burning candles
in unexpected places, a cyclone fence festooned with yet another
crop of yellow ribbons.

And much seems much the same--Chuckie, our cat, seems not
to have heard of the disaster, though he sometimes seems very
much aware of altered moods hereabouts. He wants fresh food,
and a bit of milk in the morning. Our neighbors walk their dogs
and jog along the Hudson. The fruit vendors are out on the
streets, and in some respect things are beginning to return to
"normal"--in some ways what we yearn for, those days and
weeks and months speeding by as though they were minutes
and seconds and nanoseconds--the passing scene, the
slippery slope.


Hal     "If you want to make God laugh,
           tell him what you're doing tomorrow."
                        --Michael Judge, Chaplain, NYFD

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html

*****************************************
September 19, 2001

Attacks Called Great Art

The composer Karlheinz Stockhausen caused outrage in Germany
when he described the terrorist attacks in the United States last week
as "the greatest work of art ever," Agence France-Presse reported
yesterday.

Mr. Stockhausen, 73, who made the remark to journalists in Hamburg
on Sunday, retracted it at once and asked that it not be reported.

But two Stockhausen concerts scheduled for yesterday and today in a
festival in Hamburg were canceled.

"Out of feeling for the political culture of the city and the federal republic,
the concerts had to be canceled," said Christina Weiss, Hamburg culture
commissioner.

Agence France-Presse reported that according to the news agency DPA,
Mr. Stockhausen responded to a question about the attacks on the United
States by saying: "What happened there is ? they all have to rearrange their
brains now ? is the greatest work of art ever.

"That characters can bring about in one act what we in music cannot dream
of, that people practice madly for 10 years, completely, fanatically, for a
concert and then die. That is the greatest work of art for the whole cosmos.

"I could not do that. Against that, we, composers, are nothing."

Mr. Stockhausen was reported to have left Hamburg in distress.




From JBCM2  Wed Sep 19 11:50:12 2001
From: JBCM2 (JBCM2 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:50:12 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [psyche-arts] They can't see why they are hated
Message-ID: <23.11932049.28da18b4@aol.com>

hmmmm Henry, Paul, Bob, etc.,  the word "simplistic" has been mentioned over 
and over again --usually in connection with my attempt to broaden the 
discussion by the introduction of historical contexts and motivations -- but 
don't any of you think that the analysis below is just a teensy weensy bit 
simplistic?  Now just for the record, Hank, I've never said that the 
political and historical dimensions were the only things to be considered, 
but I noted that they were essentially absent in the discussion on this list. 
 It's true that I think that they're far more important than the nebulous 
appeals to the tenets of Islam, or more specifically, to the tenets of 
Islamic Fundamentalism, even though those who are making these references 
have not demonstrated that they have one iota of knowledge of Islamic 
religion and culture -- and as a matter of fact, the tenets referred to are 
those of the ladies & gentlemen who are generally considered be extremists, 
and if nothing else, the media has been gurgling with denials from the vast 
majority of muslims, who consider the WTC & Pentagon attacks as affronts to 
the very Islamic code that's being invoked as the principle cause of these 
attacks.  Now, to use Paul's happy phrase, this is what I would consider 
"tortured logic."

& while we're on about words, why is it that being passionate in one's 
position can be labeled bullying, while calling someone a bully (usually as a 
misunderstanding for passion which, as one can plainly see, is verboten in 
this venue) ad hominem?  Paul has suggested that my posting of Milne's 
article was "bullying" when he wrote 'In speaking out, I wanted to encourage 
others not to be bullied, but to speak their own consciences.'  Yet I sent 
the Milne article on as a f.y.i. piece, with no commentary of my own -- so 
one can only assume that in Paul's mind, just sending along something with 
which he disagreed was "bullying" -- which is rather a little too much 
sensitivity, don't you think?  And don't you think it's in the nature of an 
ad hominem to call Milne's piece 'anti-american" when it's merely critical -- 
or is being critical of America the same as being anti-american?  (I know 
that Paul has since retracted this characterization, which he claims he made 
as a response to my bullying audacity of posting the article to the list, but 
he did make the remark and you and your like-minded brethren were strangely 
silent on the ad hominem front.)  I know I'm probably being a little pushy, 
but I can't help but think that there's a confluence of jingoistic impulses 
motivating much of the objections to the points that I've raised, and more 
than a little ignorance.  I guess this is why Bob Cobb writes that I'm 
attempting to "excuse and justify terrorists' actions against the United 
States"  -- which is really a contemptible and vicious slander, but, 
apparently, not at all in the nature of an "ad hominem attack."  Don't you 
think that such an unsubstantiated accusation rhymes with Paul's labeling of 
Milne's piece as "anti-american"?  Can you see the difference between 
understanding causes and making excuses, or, are you, too, caught up in the 
"us versus them" reactionaryism that peppers the remarks of Bob & Paul, et 
al.?  

jb...

In a message dated 09/18/2001 5:28:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
bdeanrob at sgi.net writes:

<< 
 The Moslem extremists oppose Irael not primarily because they believe it has
 violated the rights of the Palestinians, but becasue Israel represents 
modernity.
 The Islamic "fundamentalists" are in revolt against the entire modern world:
 freedom, Democracy, secularism, science and technology, modern education, 
women's
 liberation, pop culture, modern music and art, liberal Christianity - the 
whole
 works. Therefore, anyone who believes they can be satisfied by the USA 
adopting a
 more "humane" policy towards the Palestinians is mistaken. Give the 
Palestinians
 their own state, and it would become a tawdry third-world dictatorship just 
like
 all the other Arab states. The terrorist attacks against Israel and the USA 
would
 continue unabated. The Moslem extremists do not want "justice," they want to
 destroy us and everything we represent.
  >>



From JBCM2  Wed Sep 19 11:54:39 2001
From: JBCM2 (JBCM2 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:54:39 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Media March to War
Message-ID: <143.1d399ca.28da19bf@aol.com>

 FAIR-L
                    Fairness & Accuracy in Reporting
               Media analysis, critiques and news reports

MEDIA ADVISORY:
Media March to War

September 17, 2001

In the wake of the devastating attacks on the World Trade Center and the
Pentagon, many media pundits focused on one theme: retaliation. For some, it
did not matter who bears the brunt of an American attack:

"There is only one way to begin to deal with people like this, and that is
you have to kill some of them even if they are not immediately directly
involved in this thing."
--former Secretary of State Lawrence Eagleburger (CNN, 9/11/01)

"The response to this unimaginable 21st-century Pearl Harbor should be as
simple as it is swift-- kill the bastards. A gunshot between the eyes, blow
them to smithereens, poison them if you have to.  As for cities or countries
that host these worms, bomb them into basketball courts."
--Steve Dunleavy (New York Post, 9/12/01)

"America roused to a righteous anger has always been a force for good.
States that have been supporting if not Osama bin Laden, people like him
need to feel pain. If we flatten part of Damascus or Tehran or whatever it
takes, that is part of the solution."
--Rich Lowry, National Review editor, to Howard Kurtz (Washington Post,
9/13/01)

"TIME TO TAKE NAMES AND NUKE AFGHANISTAN."
--Caption to cartoon by Gary Brookins (Richmond Times-Dispatch, 9/13/01)

"At a bare minimum, tactical nuclear capabilites should be used against the
bin Laden camps in the desert of Afghanistan. To do less would be rightly
seen by the poisoned minds that orchestrated these attacks as cowardice on
the part of the United States and the current administration."
--Former Defense Intelligence Agency officer Thomas Woodrow, "Time to Use
the Nuclear Option" (Washington Times, 9/14/01)

Bill O'Reilly: "If the Taliban government of Afghanistan does not cooperate,
then we will damage that government with air power, probably. All right? We
will blast them, because..."

Sam Husseini, Institute for Public Accuracy: "Who will you kill in the
process?"

O'Reilly: "Doesn't make any difference."
--("The O'Reilly Factor," Fox News Channel, 9/13/01)

"This is no time to be precise about locating the exact individuals
directly involved in this particular terrorist attack.... We should invade
their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity.  We
weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top
officers.  We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians.  That's war.
And this is war."
--Syndicated columnist Ann Coulter (New York Daily News, 9/12/01)


"Real" Retribution

Many media commentators appeared to blame the attacks on what they saw as
America's unwillingness to act aggressively in recent years.

As conservative columnist Charles Krauthammer (Washington Post, 9/12/01)
wrote: "One of the reasons there are enough terrorists out there capable and
deadly enough to carry out the deadliest attack on the United States in its
history is that, while they have declared war on us, we have in the past
responded (with the exception of a few useless cruise missile attacks on
empty tents in the desert) by issuing subpoenas."

The Washington Post's David Broder (9/13/01), considered a moderate, issued
his own call for "new realism-- and steel-- in America's national security
policy": "For far too long, we have been queasy about responding to
terrorism. Two decades ago, when those with real or imagined grievances
against the United States began picking off Americans overseas on military
or diplomatic assignments or on business, singly or in groups, we delivered
pinprick retaliations or none at all."

It's worth recalling the U.S. response to the bombing of a Berlin disco in
April 1986, which resulted in the deaths of two U.S. service members: The
U.S. immediately bombed Libya, which it blamed for the attack. According to
Libya, 36 civilians were killed in the air assault, including the year-old
daughter of Libyan leader Moamar Khadafy (Washington Post, 5/9/86). It is
unlikely that Libyans considered this a "pinprick." Yet these deaths
apparently had little deterrence value: In December 1988, less than 20
months later, Pan Am 103 exploded over Lockerbie, Scotland, in an even
deadlier act of
terrorism the U.S. blames on Libyan agents.

More recently, in 1998, Bill Clinton sent 60 cruise missiles, some equipped
with cluster bombs, against bin Laden's Afghan base, in what was presented
as retaliation for the bombing of U.S. embassies in Africa. One missile
aimed at Afghan training camps landed hundreds of miles off course in
Pakistan, while a simultaneous attack in Sudan leveled one of the country's
few pharmaceutical factories. Media cheered the attacks (In These Times,
9/6/98), though careful investigation into the case revealed no credible
evidence linking the plant to chemical weapons or Osama bin Laden, the two
justifications offered for the attack (New York Times, 10/27/99, London
Observer, 8/23/98).

Despite the dubious record of retributory violence in insuring security,
many pundits insist that previous retaliation failed only because it was not
severe enough. As the Chicago Tribune's John Kass declared (9/13/01), "For
the past decade we've sat dumb and stupid as the U.S. military was
transformed from a killing machine into a playpen for sociologists and
political schemers." This "playpen" dropped 23,000 bombs on Yugoslavia in
1999, killing between 500 and 1,500 civilians, and may have killed as many
as 1,200 Iraqis in 1998's Desert Fox attack (Agence France Presse,
12/23/98).

The Wall Street Journal (9/13/01) urged the U.S. to "get serious" about
terrorism by, among other things, eliminating "the 1995 rule, imposed by
former CIA Director John Deutsch under political pressure, limiting whom the
U.S. can recruit for counter-terrorism. For fear of hiring rogues, the CIA
decided it would only hire Boy Scouts." One non-Boy Scout the CIA worked
with in the 1980s is none other than Osama bin Laden (MSNBC, 8/24/98; The
Atlantic, 7-8/01)-- then considered a valuable asset in the fight against
Communism, but now suspected of being the chief instigator of the World
Trade Center attacks.


Who's to Blame?

In crisis situations, particularly those involving terrorism, media often
report unsubstantiated information about suspects or those claiming
responsibility-- an error that is especially dangerous in the midst of calls
for military retaliation.

Early reports on the morning of the attack indicated that the Democratic
Front for the Liberation of Palestine had claimed responsibility on Abu
Dhabi Television. Most outlets were careful with the information, though
NBC's Tom Brokaw, while not confirming the story, added fuel to the fire:
"This comes, ironically, on a day when the Israel Foreign Minister Shimon
Peres is scheduled to meet with Yasser Arafat. Of course, we've had the
meeting in South Africa for the past several days in which the Palestinians
were accusing the Israelis of racism"-- as if making such an accusation were
tantamount to blowing up the World Trade Center.

Hours after a spokesperson for the Democratic Front for the Liberation of
Palestine denied any responsibility for the attack, the Drudge Report
website still had the headline "Palestinian Group Says Responsible" at the
top of the page.

Though the threat from a Palestinian group proved unsubstantiated, that did
not stop media from making gross generalizations about Arabs and Islam in
general. New York Times columnist Thomas Friedman wondered (9/13/01):
"Surely Islam, a grand religion that never perpetrated the sort of Holocaust
against the Jews in its midst that Europe did, is being distorted when it is
treated as a guidebook for suicide bombing. How is it that not a single
Muslim leader will say that?"

Of course, many Muslims would-- and did-- say just that.  Political and
civil leaders throughout the Muslim world have condemned the attacks, and
Muslim clerics throughout the Middle East have given sermons refuting the
idea that targeting civilians is a tenet of Islam (BBC, 9/14/01; Washington
Post 9/17/01).


Why They Hate Us

As the media investigation focused on Osama bin Laden, news outlets still
provided little information about what fuels his fanaticism. Instead of a
serious inquiry into anti-U.S. sentiment in the Middle East and elsewhere,
many commentators media offered little more than self-congratulatory
rhetoric:

"[The World Trade Center and the Pentagon] have drawn, like gathered
lightning, the anger of the enemies of civilization. Those enemies are
always out there.... Americans are slow to anger but mighty when angry, and
their proper anger now should be alloyed with pride. They are targets
because of their virtues--principally democracy, and loyalty to those
nations which, like Israel, are embattled salients of our virtues in a
still-dangerous world."
--George Will (Washington Post, 9/12/01)

"This nation symbolizes freedom, strength, tolerance, and democratic
principles dedicated to both liberty and peace. To the tyrants, the despots,
the closed societies, there are no alterations to the policies, no gestures
we can make, no words we can say that will convince those determined to
continue their hate."
--Charles G. Boyd (Washington Post, 9/12/01)

"Are Americans afraid to face the reality that there is a significant
portion of this world's population that hates America, hates what freedom
represents, hates the fact that we fight for freedom worldwide, hates our
prosperity, hates our way of life? Have we been unwilling to face that very
difficult reality?"
--Sean Hannity (Fox News Channel, 9/13/01)

"Our principled defense of individual freedom and our reluctance to
intervene in the affairs of states harboring terrorists makes us an easy
target."
--Robert McFarlane (Washington Post, 9/13/01)

One exception was ABC's Jim Wooten (World News Tonight, 9/12/01), who tried
to shed some light on what might motivate some anti-U.S. sentiment in the
Middle East, reporting that "Arabs see the U.S. as an accomplice of Israel,
a partner in what they believe is the ruthless repression of Palestinian
aspirations for land and independence." Wooten continued: "The most
provocative issues: Israel's control over Islamic holy sites in Jerusalem;
the stationing of U.S. troops in Saudi Arabia near some of Islam's holiest
sites; and economic sanctions against Iraq, which have been seen to deprive
children there of medicine and food."

Stories like Wooten's, which examine the U.S.'s highly contentious role in
the Middle East and illuminate some of the forces that can give rise to
violent extremism, contribute far more to public security than do pundits
calling for indiscriminate revenge.

                               ----------

Feel free to respond to FAIR ( fair at fair.org ). We can't reply to
everything, but we will look at each message. We especially appreciate
documented example of media bias or censorship. And please send copies of
your email correspondence with media outlets, including any responses, to us
at: fair at fair.org .

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From tadrichards  Wed Sep 19 12:06:41 2001
From: tadrichards (theoldmole)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:06:41 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] more essays needed & Sept. 11th.
References: <E7C06C25D501D511BA9900508BB82AA90DE19C@ness.agnesscott.edu>
Message-ID: <004f01c14125$1354bb40$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

This is actually one reason why online magazines are such a promising trend.


  Tad Richards                       "Well said, old mole."
    The Old Mole                         Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet
    of the MoleNet                          Act I, Scene 5
          http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
----- Original Message -----
From: "Prentiss, Amber" <aprentiss at agnesscott.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 10:39 AM
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] more essays needed & Sept. 11th.


>
> That's if and only if one's university remembers more than poetry that was
> created by people other than the long dead and maybe one faculty member.
> Mine does not. Its holdings are likely not terribly better than the main
> public library, except in literary criticism and mainstream litmags. Now,
> /criticism/ belongs to the  university, at least in part because I don't
> know if many other people want to be bothered with it.
> ***
> So what're we supposed to do? Personally, internationalization is an ugly
> word and not a pretty concept, but I'm not strapping myself to the front
> revolving door at the offices of Coca-Cola. (And I don't think doing so
> would help much, either.) Now, I'm glad that maybe we'll have a more
> sensitive foreign policy, and Lord knows, we needed one. Still, I also
don't
> think we belong to the only country that's done its share of hurt whether
or
> not you supported it or were old enough to know anything about it.
>
> -Amber
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bob cooper
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 9/18/01 9:33 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] more essays needed & Sept. 11th.
>
> This is not just to support "dead poet" - who isn't dead, but some of
> you
> seem to be trying to finish off - but to address an attitude! (Why do
> first
> posts sometimes, if not always, seem to need aggression? I mean
> "address" is
> such a non me, aggressively toned, word...)
>
> I remember a while ago I simply read (and ignored) the comments posted
> about
> how "well heeled" (well affluent, well educated) US poets are (in your
> opinions). But that isn't the case for everyone who takes poetry
> seriously.
> Want a history lesson? You won't get one from me - I'll just knock you
> down
> a smidgen in knowledge and education.
> Is it acceptable that poetry is Owned by Universities (written by their
> employees, locked away in their libraries)? And only those who can get
> access to University Libraries ought to get access to poetry? Part
> ownership/sponsorship may be OK... But in the US people may not yet have
>
> dreamed of something like the National Poetry Libraries that exist in
> the
> United Kingdom for instance. (If you don't want to be hated so much for
> your
> attitude, start listening, start dreaming (more than the American Dream)
> and
> changing).
> I say what I say because I've been to University (where poets be), I've
> also
> queued in the Benefits Agency - do you call it Welfare - where poets be
> too.
> One, a canny mate, was once telling me he'd made a bit because some
> University over in the States had bought all his scraps of paper... But
> paying for privilege like that is short-term (and I don't just mean he
> soon
> spent it).
> Like Jason I seem to be staring into a widening gap.
>
> And another comment, on your other current obsession, why the US is
> being
> attacked...
> One thing I'm finding difficult to hear is the way "The World Trade
> Centre"
> is just being used to name a couple of buildings. I want to hear the
> word
> "World" said with a bit more appreciation of what the word means:
> because,
> when the place was still there, it included representatives of many
> millions
> of people (and excluded many millions too).
> The World Trade Centre - with people of 162 nationalities, from over 40
> countries - may have been targeted and destroyed (by men in business
> suits,
> with families and education) because of the way World Trade is
> controlled
> and run, not just because it's (on land bought cheap from the natives)
> in
> Manhattan. (If, as the days go on, any of you see coverage of funerals
> elsewhere in the world - in how many of the other countries where the
> victims came from - then that may pacify me a little; may modify and
> soften
> what I now feel. I you do, help me, let me know. If nothing's broadcast
> then
> it's that attitude again!)
> I sense it's important for people in the US to recognise that not all of
>
> those countries think that American attitudes to World Trade should
> rule.
> I'm wondering if some of the injustices that prompted the attack will
> have
> to be worked at and changed. Grieving (which, in this case, is
> international, not just for individuals) is a process that includes
> (initial) anger, but it must also lead to (eventual and, hopefully,
> beneficial) change.
>
> Y see, I'm a fairly tolerant kinda guy, but I think some of you'se
> oughta
> realise who y hurtin, what y doin (as poets to other poets, and - as a
> nation with an attitude - to people elsewhere). I'm not tarring y all
> with
> these two brushes, but - from how I stare at my screen (like you're doin
>
> now) - I sorta see there are faces where the tar oughta stick. OK?
>
> Bob
>
>
>
>
>
> >From: "dead poet" <adead_poet at hotmail.com>
> >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] more essays needed
> >Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 22:21:19 -0500
> >
> >the reason i'm not in school is because i had to pay for the last
> semester
> >i attended, and i haven't had the money to take care of all of it. as
> soon
> >as it is paid off....
>
> >> > >
>
> etc. etc. etc.
>
> >> > >
> >> > >>Dear Dead Poet,
> >> > >>you ever try the library? That's the big
> >>building where they keep the
> >> > >>books?
> >> > >
>
> >> >___________________________________________________
> >>______________
> >> > >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
> >>http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> >> > >
> >> > >_______________________________________________
> >> > >New-Poetry mailing list
> >> > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> >
> >> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>____________________________________________________
> >>_____________
> >> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
> >>http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > New-Poetry mailing list
> >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>
> >>_______________________________________________
> >>New-Poetry mailing list
> >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
> http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
> http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From JBCM2  Wed Sep 19 12:12:07 2001
From: JBCM2 (JBCM2 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:12:07 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Who Is Osama Bin Laden? Part l
Message-ID: <114.4c60f4e.28da1dd7@aol.com>

Who Is Osama Bin Laden?
by Michel Chossudovsky 
Professor of Economics, University of Ottawa


Centre for Research on Globalisation (CRG), Montr?al 
Posted 12 September 2001


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

A few hours after the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Centre and the 
Pentagon, the Bush administration concluded without supporting evidence, that 
"Osama bin Laden and his al-Qaeda organisation were prime suspects". CIA 
Director George Tenet stated that bin Laden has the capacity to plan 
``multiple attacks with little or no warning.'' Secretary of State Colin 
Powell called the attacks "an act of war" and President Bush confirmed in an 
evening televised address to the Nation that he would "make no distinction 
between the terrorists who committed these acts and those who harbor them". 
Former CIA Director James Woolsey pointed his finger at "state sponsorship," 
implying the complicity of one or more foreign governments. In the words of 
former National Security Adviser, Lawrence Eagleburger, "I think we will show 
when we get attacked like this, we are terrible in our strength and in our 
retribution." 

Meanwhile, parroting official statements, the Western media mantra has 
approved the launching of "punitive actions" directed against civilian 
targets in the Middle East. In the words of William Saffire writing in the 
New York Times: "When we reasonably determine our attackers' bases and camps, 
we must pulverize them -- minimizing but accepting the risk of collateral 
damage" -- and act overtly or covertly to destabilize terror's national 
hosts". 

The following text outlines the history of Osama Bin Laden and the links of 
the Islamic "Jihad" to the formulation of US foreign policy during the Cold 
War and its aftermath. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

Prime suspect in the New York and Washington terrorists attacks, branded by 
the FBI as an "international terrorist" for his role in the African US 
embassy bombings, Saudi born Osama bin Laden was recruited during the 
Soviet-Afghan war "ironically under the auspices of the CIA, to fight Soviet 
invaders". 1 

In 1979 "the largest covert operation in the history of the CIA" was launched 
in response to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in support of the 
pro-Communist government of Babrak Kamal.2: 

With the active encouragement of the CIA and Pakistan's ISI [Inter Services 
Intelligence], who wanted to turn the Afghan jihad into a global war waged by 
all Muslim states against the Soviet Union, some 35,000 Muslim radicals from 
40 Islamic countries joined Afghanistan's fight between 1982 and 1992. Tens 
of thousands more came to study in Pakistani madrasahs. Eventually more than 
100,000 foreign Muslim radicals were directly influenced by the Afghan 
jihad.3 
The Islamic "jihad" was supported by the United States and Saudi Arabia with 
a significant part of the funding generated from the Golden Crescent drug 
trade: 

In March 1985, President Reagan signed National Security Decision Directive 
166,...[which] authorize[d] stepped-up covert military aid to the mujahideen, 
and it made clear that the secret Afghan war had a new goal: to defeat Soviet 
troops in Afghanistan through covert action and encourage a Soviet 
withdrawal. The new covert U.S. assistance began with a dramatic increase in 
arms supplies -- a steady rise to 65,000 tons annually by 1987, ... as well 
as a "ceaseless stream" of CIA and Pentagon specialists who traveled to the 
secret headquarters of Pakistan's ISI on the main road near Rawalpindi, 
Pakistan. There the CIA specialists met with Pakistani intelligence officers 
to help plan operations for the Afghan rebels.4 
The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) using Pakistan's military 
Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) played a key role in training the 
Mujahideen. In turn, the CIA sponsored guerrilla training was integrated with 
the teachings of Islam: 

Predominant themes were that Islam was a complete socio-political ideology, 
that holy Islam was being violated by the atheistic Soviet troops, and that 
the Islamic people of Afghanistan should reassert their independence by 
overthrowing the leftist Afghan regime propped up by Moscow.5 
Pakistan's Intelligence Apparatus 
Pakistan's ISI was used as a "go-between". The CIA covert support to the 
"jihad" operated indirectly through the Pakistani ISI, --i.e. the CIA did not 
channel its support directly to the Mujahideen. In other words, for these 
covert operations to be "successful", Washington was careful not to reveal 
the ultimate objective of the "jihad", which consisted in destroying the 
Soviet Union. 

In the words of CIA's Milton Beardman "We didn't train Arabs". Yet according 
to Abdel Monam Saidali, of the Al-aram Center for Strategic Studies in Cairo, 
bin Laden and the "Afghan Arabs" had been imparted "with very sophisticated 
types of training that was allowed to them by the CIA" 6 

CIA's Beardman confirmed, in this regard, that Osama bin Laden was not aware 
of the role he was playing on behalf of Washington. In the words of bin Laden 
(quoted by Beardman): "neither I, nor my brothers saw evidence of American 
help". 7 

Motivated by nationalism and religious fervor, the Islamic warriors were 
unaware that they were fighting the Soviet Army on behalf of Uncle Sam. While 
there were contacts at the upper levels of the intelligence hierarchy, 
Islamic rebel leaders in theatre had no contacts with Washington or the CIA. 

With CIA backing and the funneling of massive amounts of US military aid, the 
Pakistani ISI had developed into a "parallel structure wielding enormous 
power over all aspects of government". 8 The ISI had a staff composed of 
military and intelligence officers, bureaucrats, undercover agents and 
informers, estimated at 150,000. 9 

Meanwhile, CIA operations had also reinforced the Pakistani military regime 
led by General Zia Ul Haq: 

'Relations between the CIA and the ISI [Pakistan's military intelligence] had 
grown increasingly warm following [General] Zia's ouster of Bhutto and the 
advent of the military regime,'... During most of the Afghan war, Pakistan 
was more aggressively anti-Soviet than even the United States. Soon after the 
Soviet military invaded Afghanistan in 1980, Zia [ul Haq] sent his ISI chief 
to destabilize the Soviet Central Asian states. The CIA only agreed to this 
plan in October 1984.... `the CIA was more cautious than the Pakistanis.' 
Both Pakistan and the United States took the line of deception on Afghanistan 
with a public posture of negotiating a settlement while privately agreeing 
that military escalation was the best course.10 



From JBCM2  Wed Sep 19 12:12:38 2001
From: JBCM2 (JBCM2 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:12:38 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Who Is Osama Bin Laden?  Part lll
Message-ID: <12e.4cb9f4e.28da1df6@aol.com>

Concluding Remarks 
Since the Cold War era, Washington has consciously supported Osama bin Laden, 
while at same time placing him on the FBI's "most wanted list" as the World's 
foremost terrorist. 

While the Mujahideen are busy fighting America's war in the Balkans and the 
former Soviet Union, the FBI --operating as a US based Police Force- is 
waging a domestic war against terrorism, operating in some respects 
independently of the CIA which has --since the Soviet-Afghan war-- supported 
international terrorism through its covert operations. 

In a cruel irony, while the Islamic jihad --featured by the Bush 
Adminstration as "a threat to America"-- is blamed for the terrorist assaults 
on the World Trade Centre and the Pentagon, these same Islamic organisations 
constitute a key instrument of US military-intelligence operations in the 
Balkans and the former Soviet Union. 

In the wake of the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington, the truth 
must prevail to prevent the Bush Adminstration together with its NATO 
partners from embarking upon a military adventure which threatens the future 
of humanity. 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

Endnotes 
Hugh Davies, International: `Informers' point the finger at bin Laden; 
Washington on alert for suicide bombers, The Daily Telegraph, London, 24 
August 1998. 
See Fred Halliday, "The Un-great game: the Country that lost the Cold War, 
Afghanistan, New Republic, 25 March 1996): 
Ahmed Rashid, The Taliban: Exporting Extremism, Foreign Affairs, 
November-December 1999. 
Steve Coll, Washington Post, July 19, 1992. 
Dilip Hiro, Fallout from the Afghan Jihad, Inter Press Services, 21 November 
1995. 
Weekend Sunday (NPR); Eric Weiner, Ted Clark; 16 August 1998. 
Ibid. 
Dipankar Banerjee; Possible Connection of ISI With Drug Industry, India 
Abroad, 2 December 1994. 
Ibid 
See Diego Cordovez and Selig Harrison, Out of Afghanistan: The Inside Story 
of the Soviet Withdrawal, Oxford university Press, New York, 1995. See also 
the review of Cordovez and Harrison in International Press Services, 22 
August 1995. 
Alfred McCoy, Drug fallout: the CIA's Forty Year Complicity in the Narcotics 
Trade. The Progressive; 1 August 1997. 
Ibid 
Ibid. 
Douglas Keh, Drug Money in a changing World, Technical document no 4, 1998, 
Vienna UNDCP, p. 4. See also Report of the International Narcotics Control 
Board for 1999, E/INCB/1999/1 United Nations Publication, Vienna 1999, p 
49-51, And Richard Lapper, UN Fears Growth of Heroin Trade, Financial Times, 
24 February 2000. 
Report of the International Narcotics Control Board, op cit, p 49-51, see 
also Richard Lapper, op. cit. 
International Press Services, 22 August 1995. 
Ahmed Rashid, The Taliban: Exporting Extremism, Foreign Affairs, November- 
December, 1999, p. 22. 
Quoted in the Christian Science Monitor, 3 September 1998) 
Tim McGirk, Kabul learns to live with its bearded conquerors, The 
Independent, London, 6 November1996. 
See K. Subrahmanyam, Pakistan is Pursuing Asian Goals, India Abroad, 3 
November 1995. 
Levon Sevunts, Who's calling the shots?: Chechen conflict finds Islamic roots 
in Afghanistan and Pakistan, 23 The Gazette, Montreal, 26 October 1999.. 
Ibid 
Ibid. 
See Vitaly Romanov and Viktor Yadukha, Chechen Front Moves To Kosovo 
Segodnia, Moscow, 23 Feb 2000. 
The European, 13 February 1997, See also Itar-Tass, 4-5 January 2000. 
BBC, 29 September 1999). 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

The URL of this article is: 
http://globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO109C.html 

Copyright Michel Chossudovsky, Montreal, September 2001. All rights reserved. 
Permission is granted to post this text on non-commercial community internet 
sites, provided the source and the URL are indicated, the essay remains 
intact and the copyright note is displayed. To publish this text in printed 
and/or other forms, including commercial internet sites and excerpts, contact 
the author at chossudovsky at videotron.ca, fax: 1-514-4256224.



From JBCM2  Wed Sep 19 12:12:27 2001
From: JBCM2 (JBCM2 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:12:27 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Who Is Osama Bin Laden?  Part ll
Message-ID: <170.11c824e.28da1deb@aol.com>

The Golden Crescent Drug Triangle 
The history of the drug trade in Central Asia is intimately related to the 
CIA's covert operations. Prior to the Soviet-Afghan war, opium production in 
Afghanistan and Pakistan was directed to small regional markets. There was no 
local production of heroin. 11 In this regard, Alfred McCoy's study confirms 
that within two years of the onslaught of the CIA operation in Afghanistan, 
"the Pakistan-Afghanistan borderlands became the world's top heroin producer, 
supplying 60 percent of U.S. demand. In Pakistan, the heroin-addict 
population went from near zero in 1979... to 1.2 million by 1985 -- a much 
steeper rise than in any other nation":12 

CIA assets again controlled this heroin trade. As the Mujahideen guerrillas 
seized territory inside Afghanistan, they ordered peasants to plant opium as 
a revolutionary tax. Across the border in Pakistan, Afghan leaders and local 
syndicates under the protection of Pakistan Intelligence operated hundreds of 
heroin laboratories. During this decade of wide-open drug-dealing, the U.S. 
Drug Enforcement Agency in Islamabad failed to instigate major seizures or 
arrests ... U.S. officials had refused to investigate charges of heroin 
dealing by its Afghan allies `because U.S. narcotics policy in Afghanistan 
has been subordinated to the war against Soviet influence there.' In 1995, 
the former CIA director of the Afghan operation, Charles Cogan, admitted the 
CIA had indeed sacrificed the drug war to fight the Cold War. `Our main 
mission was to do as much damage as possible to the Soviets. We didn't really 
have the resources or the time to devote to an investigation of the drug 
trade,'... `I don't think that we need to apologize for this. Every situation 
has its fallout.... There was fallout in terms of drugs, yes. But the main 
objective was accomplished. The Soviets left Afghanistan.'13 
In the Wake of the Cold War 
In the wake of the Cold War, the Central Asian region is not only strategic 
for its extensive oil reserves, it also produces three quarters of the 
World's opium representing multibillion dollar revenues to business 
syndicates, financial institutions, intelligence agencies and organized 
crime. The annual proceeds of the Golden Crescent drug trade (between 100 and 
200 billion dollars) represents approximately one third of the Worldwide 
annual turnover of narcotics, estimated by the United Nations to be of the 
order of $500 billion.14 

With the disintegration of the Soviet Union, a new surge in opium production 
has unfolded. (According to UN estimates, the production of opium in 
Afghanistan in 1998-99 -- coinciding with the build up of armed insurgencies 
in the former Soviet republics-- reached a record high of 4600 metric tons.15 
Powerful business syndicates in the former Soviet Union allied with organized 
crime are competing for the strategic control over the heroin routes. 

The ISI's extensive intelligence military-network was not dismantled in the 
wake of the Cold War. The CIA continued to support the Islamic "jihad" out of 
Pakistan. New undercover initiatives were set in motion in Central Asia, the 
Caucasus and the Balkans. Pakistan's military and intelligence apparatus 
essentially "served as a catalyst for the disintegration of the Soviet Union 
and the emergence of six new Muslim republics in Central Asia." 16. 

Meanwhile, Islamic missionaries of the Wahhabi sect from Saudi Arabia had 
established themselves in the Muslim republics as well as within the Russian 
federation encroaching upon the institutions of the secular State. Despite 
its anti-American ideology, Islamic fundamentalism was largely serving 
Washington's strategic interests in the former Soviet Union. 

Following the withdrawal of Soviet troops in 1989, the civil war in 
Afghanistan continued unabated. The Taliban were being supported by the 
Pakistani Deobandis and their political party the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Islam 
(JUI). In 1993, JUI entered the government coalition of Prime Minister 
Benazzir Bhutto. Ties between JUI, the Army and ISI were established. In 
1995, with the downfall of the Hezb-I-Islami Hektmatyar government in Kabul, 
the Taliban not only instated a hardline Islamic government, they also 
"handed control of training camps in Afghanistan over to JUI factions..." 17 

And the JUI with the support of the Saudi Wahhabi movements played a key role 
in recruiting volunteers to fight in the Balkans and the former Soviet Union. 

Jane Defense Weekly confirms in this regard that "half of Taliban manpower 
and equipment originate[d] in Pakistan under the ISI" 18 

In fact, it would appear that following the Soviet withdrawal both sides in 
the Afghan civil war continued to receive covert support through Pakistan's 
ISI. 19 

In other words, backed by Pakistan's military intelligence (ISI) which in 
turn was controlled by the CIA, the Taliban Islamic State was largely serving 
American geopolitical interests. The Golden Crescent drug trade was also 
being used to finance and equip the Bosnian Muslim Army (starting in the 
early 1990s) and the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA). In last few months there 
is evidence that Mujahideen mercenaries are fighting in the ranks of KLA-NLA 
terrorists in their assaults into Macedonia. 

No doubt, this explains why Washington has closed its eyes on the reign of 
terror imposed by the Taliban including the blatant derogation of women's 
rights, the closing down of schools for girls, the dismissal of women 
employees from government offices and the enforcement of "the Sharia laws of 
punishment".20 

The War in Chechnya 
With regard to Chechnya, the main rebel leaders Shamil Basayev and Al Khattab 
were trained and indoctrinated in CIA sponsored camps in Afghanistan and 
Pakistan. According to Yossef Bodansky, director of the U.S. Congress's Task 
Force on Terrorism and Unconventional Warfare, the war in Chechnya had been 
planned during a secret summit of HizbAllah International held in 1996 in 
Mogadishu, Somalia. 21 The summit, was attended by Osama bin Laden and 
high-ranking Iranian and Pakistani intelligence officers. In this regard, the 
involvement of Pakistan's ISI in Chechnya "goes far beyond supplying the 
Chechens with weapons and expertise: the ISI and its radical Islamic proxies 
are actually calling the shots in this war". 22 

Russia's main pipeline route transits through Chechnya and Dagestan. Despite 
Washington's perfunctory condemnation of Islamic terrorism, the indirect 
beneficiaries of the Chechen war are the Anglo-American oil conglomerates 
which are vying for control over oil resources and pipeline corridors out of 
the Caspian Sea basin. 

The two main Chechen rebel armies (respectively led by Commander Shamil 
Basayev and Emir Khattab) estimated at 35,000 strong were supported by 
Pakistan's ISI, which also played a key role in organizing and training the 
Chechen rebel army: 

[In 1994] the Pakistani Inter Services Intelligence arranged for Basayev and 
his trusted lieutenants to undergo intensive Islamic indoctrination and 
training in guerrilla warfare in the Khost province of Afghanistan at Amir 
Muawia camp, set up in the early 1980s by the CIA and ISI and run by famous 
Afghani warlord Gulbuddin Hekmatyar. In July 1994, upon graduating from Amir 
Muawia, Basayev was transferred to Markaz-i-Dawar camp in Pakistan to undergo 
training in advanced guerrilla tactics. In Pakistan, Basayev met the highest 
ranking Pakistani military and intelligence officers: Minister of Defense 
General Aftab Shahban Mirani, Minister of Interior General Naserullah Babar, 
and the head of the ISI branch in charge of supporting Islamic causes, 
General Javed Ashraf, (all now retired). High-level connections soon proved 
very useful to Basayev.23 
Following his training and indoctrination stint, Basayev was assigned to lead 
the assault against Russian federal troops in the first Chechen war in 1995. 
His organization had also developed extensive links to criminal syndicates in 
Moscow as well as ties to Albanian organized crime and the Kosovo Liberation 
Army (KLA). In 1997-98, according to Russia's Federal Security Service (FSB) 
"Chechen warlords started buying up real estate in Kosovo... through several 
real estate firms registered as a cover in Yugoslavia" 24 

Basayev's organisation has also been involved in a number of rackets 
including narcotics, illegal tapping and sabotage of Russia's oil pipelines, 
kidnapping, prostitution, trade in counterfeit dollars and the smuggling of 
nuclear materials (See Mafia linked to Albania's collapsed pyramids, 25 
Alongside the extensive laundering of drug money, the proceeds of various 
illicit activities have been funneled towards the recruitment of mercenaries 
and the purchase of weapons. 

During his training in Afghanistan, Shamil Basayev linked up with Saudi born 
veteran Mujahideen Commander "Al Khattab" who had fought as a volunteer in 
Afghanistan. Barely a few months after Basayev's return to Grozny, Khattab 
was invited (early 1995) to set up an army base in Chechnya for the training 
of Mujahideen fighters. According to the BBC, Khattab's posting to Chechnya 
had been "arranged through the Saudi-Arabian based [International] Islamic 
Relief Organisation, a militant religious organisation, funded by mosques and 
rich individuals which channeled funds into Chechnya".26 



From aprentiss  Wed Sep 19 12:17:05 2001
From: aprentiss (Prentiss, Amber)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:17:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] more essays needed & Sept. 11th.
Message-ID: <E7C06C25D501D511BA9900508BB82AA90DE19D@ness.agnesscott.edu>

That's if they're updated on a regular basis (gripe).
-Amber

-----Original Message-----
From: theoldmole
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: 9/19/2001 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] more essays needed & Sept. 11th.

This is actually one reason why online magazines are such a promising
trend.


  Tad Richards                       "Well said, old mole."
    The Old Mole                         Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet
    of the MoleNet                          Act I, Scene 5
          http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
----- Original Message -----
From: "Prentiss, Amber" <aprentiss at agnesscott.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2001 10:39 AM
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] more essays needed & Sept. 11th.


>
> That's if and only if one's university remembers more than poetry that
was
> created by people other than the long dead and maybe one faculty
member.
> Mine does not. Its holdings are likely not terribly better than the
main
> public library, except in literary criticism and mainstream litmags.
Now,
> /criticism/ belongs to the  university, at least in part because I
don't
> know if many other people want to be bothered with it.

http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From moira_russell  Wed Sep 19 12:19:55 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:19:55 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Who Is Osama Bin Laden? Part l
Message-ID: <F88dqK4Zd2yg3xCb674000032b0@hotmail.com>

A suggestion:  Why don't you post URLs, instead of these long articles?  
That way, people who are interested in your articles could access them, 
while those who don't wish to be inundated with them could click on.  A 
compromise.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

Wise Wretch! with Pleasures too refin'd to please;
With too much Spirit to be e'er at ease;
With too much Quickness ever to be taught;
With too much Thinking to have common Thought:
You purchase Pain with all that Joy can give,
And die of nothing but a Rage to live.
-- Alexander Pope



>From: JBCM2 at aol.com
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>To: BBlum6 at aol.com, flpoint at hotmail.com, ibid1 at earthlink.net,   
>moyercdmm at earthlink.net, CMJBalso at aol.com, alphavil at ix.netcom.com,   
>harrysandy at kreative.net, derekvdt at academypo.fss.fss.pvt.k12.pa.us,   
>Amzemel at aol.com, JBCM2 at aol.com, kjohnson at highland.cc.il.us,   
>Psyche-Arts at academyanalyticarts.org, new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Who Is Osama Bin Laden? Part l
>Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:12:07 EDT

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From TerryP17  Wed Sep 19 12:41:56 2001
From: TerryP17 (TerryP17 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 12:41:56 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Who is the Centre for Research on Globalisation (CRG?)
Message-ID: <55.1ad5587c.28da24d4@aol.com>

All--

Much appreciate the useful "blame Amerikka first" propaganda here, but one must always consider the source. Checking the referenced website reveals the following mission statement:

The Centre for Research on Globalisation (CRG) is an independent research and media group of progressive writers, scholars and activists committed to curbing the tide of "globalisation" and "disarming" the New World Order. The CRG webpage at http://globalresearch.ca based in Montreal publishes news articles, commentary, background research and analysis on a broad range of issues, focussing on the interrelationship between social, economic, strategic, geopolitical and environmental processes. 


In other words, this propaganda is brought to you by the folks who like to trash IMF meetings and the cities that hold them, and who are convinced we're all victims of a corporate conspiracy--the type of organization the old Marxist left has morphed into. 

Truth in labeling is always a good idea. It helps in evaluating the relative worth of the propaganda.

A public service by Terry Ponick




From alphavil  Wed Sep 19 13:16:24 2001
From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:16:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Who is the Centre for Research on Globalisation 
 (CRG?)
References: <55.1ad5587c.28da24d4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3BA8D2E7.F4342544@ix.netcom.com>

And that automatically condemns them and renders what they have to say unworthy of consideration. Doesn't that make you the very defintion of a xenophobic hick.

And while were on the subject of the corpse like tenor of the Washington Poetry scene, what about ol' Merrill leffler and Dryad Press, the publisher that only publishes chapbooks that consist completely of poems about one's father dying. Folks with step-fathers have actually been able to publish several chapbooks over at Merrill's. They make their mom's divorce and remarry just so they can continue to publish. The press would have published more if every poet had been able to have more than one
daddy. I'm certain that no one has actually done in dear old dad just so they could write something for his wake and Merrill's imprint--but some people in law enforcement have their suspicions. Dryads been around for at least 40 years. Sucked up some gummint money too. But has never made so much as a ripple in the world of poetry wider that vortex flush of the Beltway and even there I'm being kind. Like a number of poetic movements and individuals here, Dryad just makes your skin crawl.

On a take advantage of some flimsy leftist credentials note, we have Carolyn Forche over at George Mason. Angel of History has hopefully taught her to stay within her limits e.g. balling on the beach poetry and one unforgettable image of a jar full of campesino's ears.

Howard Nemerov is dead, god rest his soul. But could that boy quote!

We got Plumly at Maryland where he has replaced the legendary soporist, Rod
Jellema. Eddy Gold now writes copy for IBM. Actually, its hands down his best work.

We got the young-lion mained kid, Tom Orange, over at Georegtown. And the Langpo true-believer, Rod Smith at Bridge Street. While the confused young turk and leader of a little rebel band of post-langpoianites, Mark Wallace, defends his turf at A.U.

Still no R.I.P.ples. CP


TerryP17 at aol.com wrote:

> All--
>
> Much appreciate the useful "blame Amerikka first" propaganda here, but one must always consider the source. Checking the referenced website reveals the following mission statement:
>
> The Centre for Research on Globalisation (CRG) is an independent research and media group of progressive writers, scholars and activists committed to curbing the tide of "globalisation" and "disarming" the New World Order. The CRG webpage at http://globalresearch.ca based in Montreal publishes news articles, commentary, background research and analysis on a broad range of issues, focussing on the interrelationship between social, economic, strategic, geopolitical and environmental processes.
>
> In other words, this propaganda is brought to you by the folks who like to trash IMF meetings and the cities that hold them, and who are convinced we're all victims of a corporate conspiracy--the type of organization the old Marxist left has morphed into.
>
> Truth in labeling is always a good idea. It helps in evaluating the relative worth of the propaganda.
>
> A public service by Terry Ponick
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From jdavis  Wed Sep 19 13:33:35 2001
From: jdavis (Jordan Davis)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:33:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] you say cows, Lisa says chickens..
In-Reply-To: <62.1418b7c0.28d9178d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.33.0109191303490.8237-100000@panix3.panix.com>

Terry sayeth:

> until the cows come home ..

and elsewhere in the electrons Lisa Jarnot says:

> the chickens come home to roost ..

....

Anyway, Terry - I'm sure I'd like to let this western star fall - or at
least let the issue drop - as much as you would, so I'll keep my rebuttal
short.  You say lists are a matter of taste, and then you take the
chacun-a-son-gout way out - but consider this: the thesis of the essay is
that San Francisco has waned (or never developed) as a center of literary
opinion, while New York exercises something like a colonial influence over
the rest of the country. Gioia dates his list of specific contemporary New
York institutions with about the same vintage as his belittled San
Francisco example, the language poets. He gives no current examples. You
may not feel "New York intellectual" as a coded slur, you may not see that
his compare-and-contrast of east coast and west coast cities ignores that
the sprawl has hit here too, you may even find him as capable a stylist as
Hawthorne, but please acknowledge that the New York he describes is not
even the New York of the last forty years, let alone of the current
climate. Despite the fighter planes going back and forth over the length
of the island all night, who knows how long New York will be with us! I
would hope people remember it more accurately.

Signed,
a Mets fan




From jdavis  Wed Sep 19 13:42:39 2001
From: jdavis (Jordan Davis)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 13:42:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] DC Poetry
In-Reply-To: <3BA8D2E7.F4342544@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.33.0109191335050.8237-100000@panix3.panix.com>

Yes, and why do all those George Mason kids head straight for New York
when they're set free?

Graham Foust up at Buffalo writing on Henry James,
Carol Mirakove's scandalously-titled new chapbook due out in Cambridge
England any day,
Alison Cobb's Little Box Book (as printed in Mark Wallace's Situations
series) (did she go to GMU? I dunno),

and while we're roll-calling DC, forget not Buck Downs of the Marijuana
Softdrink,
Heather Fuller's Perhaps this is a rescue fantasy (and is there a new one
called Dovecote?),

working back in time, what about Doug Lang, what about Phyllis Rosenzweig,
Tina Darragh, P(eter). Inman, Joan Retallack, etc etc?

I may not always know what they're doing (or even getting at)! And I
suspect I sympathize more than you guess with the opinion that 99% of
literary production is goose-honks. But I can't understand what you mean
when you say there's nothing doing in DC -

What's the story behind your being fed up with *all* these disparate
figures, Carlo?

Jordan




From CobbCoStudioArts  Wed Sep 19 14:25:10 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 11:25:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [psyche-arts] They can't see why they are hated
Message-ID: <20010919182510.4138A3ED3@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From duemer  Wed Sep 19 14:59:22 2001
From: duemer (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 14:59:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #446 - 9 msgs
References: <10.12b44e06.28d9fff3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <003d01c1413d$326561c0$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

<<Appreciate your fine sentiments, but Gioia himself is at least a
second-generation Californian and has merely returned home from
Hastings-on-Hudson. I'm afraid you were and are neighbors, so I guess you'll
have to deal with it. His elitist butt is likely to remain in place.--Terry
Ponick>>




No, Terry, I moved out of California 14 years ago to take one of those
elitist academic jobs in northern NY. As for elitism, G's populism is just
one of its faces--I mean I see the guy at all the same conferences I go to.
I will admit to having read some of his critical writing, but I couldn't
inhale because I was holding my nose most of the time.

jd
======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
======================








From GrahamD  Wed Sep 19 15:11:42 2001
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 14:11:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Diameter of the Bomb
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDF00@mail.ripon.edu>

The Diameter of the Bomb

The diameter of the bomb was thirty centimeters
and the diameter of its effective range about seven meters,
with four dead and eleven wounded.
And around these, in a larger circle
of pain and time, two hospitals are scattered
and one graveyard.  But the young woman
who was buried in the city she came from,
at a distance of more than a hundred kilometers,
enlarges the circle considerably,
and the solitary man mourning her death
at the distant shores of a country far across the sea
includes the entire world in the circle.
And I won?t even mention the howl of orphans
that reaches up to the throne of God and
beyond, making
a circle with no end and no God.
--Yehuda Amichai



===================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
===================



From alphavil  Wed Sep 19 17:00:35 2001
From: alphavil (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 17:00:35 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Press Pass Gas!!!
References: <12e.4cb9f4e.28da1df6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3BA90773.44140AF9@ix.netcom.com>

ACCESS to the Pentagon press conference was highly restricted. Walter Pincus was
turned away for wearing a scarf. It was like trying to get into Studio 54 when
Jackie O used to get down/high there.

Anticipating a jingoistic atmosphere, I wore my Gulbuddin Hekmatyar T-shirt. The
United States government had buried Hekmatyar in cash, when this Afghani leader
launched his campaign against the Soviets. Of course, to U.S. policy makers and
intelligence experts, his resume was impeccable and they hired him on the spot. On
page 3, under hobbies it reads in part, "His followers first gained attention by
throwing acid in the faces of women who refused to wear the veil. CIA and State
Department officials I have spoken with call him "scary," "vicious," "a fascist,"
definite dictatorship material." In short, following in the tradition of Marcos,
Suharto, Armas, Savimbi, Mobutu, D'Aubisson, Somoza, Noriega, Fujimori/Montesinos,
Pinochet, etc. ad nauseam, he was "our kind of guy" wrote the CIA station chief in
Pakistan. Jesse Helms in particular felt a deep kinship with Gulbuddin, pushing
Congress to make one of his favorite drug running, homicidal maniacs the commander
of a coalition of the 5 factions fighting the Soviets. Hekmatyar had never hidden
his hatred for the United States so several of Helms aids were actually
photographed in Gulbuddin's camp wearing mujahideen garb and waving Kalyshnikov's.
I was whisked right into the press conference.

And there at the podium was Defense Secretary Don Rumsfeld. The man whom Henry
Kissinger called "the most ruthless man I have ever met."  This from Henry
Kissinger, the architect of the Madman Theory, the Christmas bombing of Hanoi, and
the leveraged merger with Communist China. My heart swelled with pride and awe and
I fought back tears as I stood within a chaw loft of perhaps "the most ruthless
man" in the world. I knew we were in good hands. Then Rumsfeld began to speak:

"Ladies and gentleman of the press, as you know, when Francis Fukayama's book, The
End of History, came out several years ago, I threw a lavish party for the
Washington press corps for which some of you still owe me a cover. My feeling and
motivations now are the same as they were then: that you the mass corporate media
were mostly responsible for selling the kind of glossolalia that drives Fukayama's
book.

Now, you and I, face another crisis. Some people are going to get the idea that
history has started up again because of the events of last week and there gonna
get all wound up. There are even a dangerous few who are going to claim that
history never stopped. They may even try to claim that the old, irrelevant
nonsense that was around before Fukayama's book has some bearing on recent events,
like carving up the Middle East along the geological money shot of the Western oil
interests. I say piss tosh. If they want to believe in radical fanatical
fundamentalist ideas like history, let them move to a country that has one.

Ladies and gentlemen, if we had to schmoooze anyone else other than the American
people, our task would be daunting. But, regardless, we must be vigilant. We must
be vigilantes for the ahistorical. And I think, if I know anything about
hist
excuse me, the fundamental goodness and fairness of the American people, we
can count on most Americans to follow us down this path. I am reminded of the
immortal words of Robert Lovett, cabinet level corporate ad man in the Eisenhower
administration, who said, "If we can sell the American public all manner of junk
in huge quantities, we can certainly sell them our fine story of a Soviet threat."
Eisenhower tried to warn the public but thanks to you good people of the media,
nobody listened. So your task is clear--present endless prattle and chatter among
experts whose families eat at the behest of large corporate funders. Cut off
callers and British scholars that bring up anything before last Tuesday. And I
mean anything, because as you know we've had our hand in everything. And finally,
if you want to be invited back here--and we have those really tasty shrimp roles
today--don't inform yourselves. Thank you. Now I'll take a few questions.

"Secrtry Rmsfld, Secrtey Rmsfeld!!?"

"Yes, Ted."

"Wheredya get that neat lapel pin, and can I get one."

"Yes, Ted. I'm sure Major General "Iron Guts" Boczinski can spend the rest of his
afternoon scrounging one up for you."

"Secrtuy Rmsfld, Secrty Rmsfld!!!?"

"Yes, Leslie."

"Can I get one for my nephew?"

"Yes, of course, Leslie."

"Secrty Rmsfeld, Secrty Rmsfeld."

"Yes, Stoned."

"That's Stone, Sir."

"What were your parents thinking?"

"Yes, Mr. Secerterry. Mr. Secertury, one of the recently declassified goals of the
bombing of North Vietnam was to accidentally kill the leadership especially that
really bad guy."

"Ho Chih Minh?"

"Yeah. Cho Mein. Yet even though we dropped 4 times the tonnage used in all the
theaters of World War II including the 2 atomic bombs onto Southeast Asia, Choo
Main drove a Mercedes and died of gout, I think. How do you propose to use such
pinpoint bombing to get Osama Bin Laden?"

"Good question Stone, and you didn't even really violate our prohibition on
bringing up history, now did you?"

"I don't think so, sir. Actually, I don't know.'

"Take my word, son; the word of "THE MOST RUTHLESS MAN IN THE WORLD. You did not.
But to answer your question. As Curtis LeMay so rightly observed. Somebody
belonged in the stone age over there and when it was pointed out by-- was it Carl
Albert, General?--that perhaps they were already there, so were we. I mean back in
those days, we were practically throwin' bombs outta planes with our bare hands
and tryin' to--what's that word--saturate the whole place and all them other
places around about so everybody would be terrorized. Madman Theory. Remember."

"Sir."

"Yes, General. You used the "T" word in the wrong context. We've been over that."

"You know how to apply a little pressure if anybody gets outta line. Just give 'em
the old. See these stars.
Now, see these stars. Except for Leslie. I kinda fancy her."

"What Madman theory, Sir?"

"Thank you, Stone. There you go, General. Is it real or is it Sominex?"

"Keep it Real."

"Thanks, Dan."

"You betcha."

"Sir?"

"Ed?"

"Sir, if we invade Afgiuneastand, do you think we'll find any tamale powder?"

"No, Ed. That was Panama. Remember, Ed. You were there. Hey, Ed. What did you do
with that cash that you found in the basement of the Saigon Embassy?"

"Mr. Prsidnt. Mr. Prsidnt."

"No, Balz. This isn't the White House Press Conference."

"Oh?"

"Any other questions for the Secretary? Yes, uh, Gnome is it?"

"Mr. Secretary. Isn't it true that the U.S. began funding Afghan Islamic
fundamentalism in 1979 despite the fact that in February of that year some of them
had kidnapped the American ambassador in the capital city of Kabul, leading to his
death in the rescue attempt."

"Uh. Mr. Chomsky, is it? Would YOU like a lapel button. And I'm not asking."


to be continued
CP










From JforJames  Wed Sep 19 17:36:34 2001
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 17:36:34 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: SF
Message-ID: <8b.c72e699.28da69e2@aol.com>

Gioia's article has a bit of that musty nostalgia
which pervaded his C P M? Aren't all bohemias,
like utopias, unsustainable? They arise and dissipate 
for a variety of social and demographic reasons...
I don't think Gioia mentioned the effect of gentrification 
following a bohemian influx into an area of a city once 
thought of as undesirable.

IAlso, I think he gives a bit too much credit to long-established
literary quarterlies (Kenyon, VQR, etc.) and their influence
By the time those journals catch up with a literary trend 
it's already passe or disertation fodder.

I often disagree with Gioia's opnions. But he's no elitist
from what I've read. He perhaps yearns too much for lost 
worlds and golden ages, and certainly his bias is toward
the formal and neo-narrative poetries, but he remains 
openminded toward rap, slam, cowboy poetry, etc...
poetic byways that would beneath interest to most elitists.
Finnegan



From JforJames  Wed Sep 19 17:40:29 2001
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 17:40:29 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] DC Poetry
Message-ID: <16.1288ab9b.28da6acd@aol.com>

A few years back DJ Renegade, from DC, was
making big splash in the slam scene. Also,
Jeff McDaniel, published by Manic D Press.
Finnegan



From TerryP17  Wed Sep 19 17:46:04 2001
From: TerryP17 (TerryP17 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 17:46:04 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gioia in the morning . . .
Message-ID: <7c.1bd0a7dc.28da6c1d@aol.com>

Joe writes:

<<No, Terry, I moved out of California 14 years ago to take one of those
elitist academic jobs in northern NY. As for elitism, G's populism is just
one of its faces--I mean I see the guy at all the same conferences I go to.
I will admit to having read some of his critical writing, but I couldn't
inhale because I was holding my nose most of the time.>>

Did notice the locale in your email reference, but given your previous post, I decided that you both were virtual neighbors anyway--you've just changed coasts. I appreciate your visceral reaction to Dana's prose, but it doesn't tell me much about why. I hear lots of strong words but not a lot of actual reasons for the detestation. Care to share?

--Terry Ponick




From TerryP17  Wed Sep 19 18:13:32 2001
From: TerryP17 (TerryP17 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 18:13:32 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Chickens, cows, tomato(e)s, tomahtos . . .
Message-ID: <111.596c452.28da728c@aol.com>

Jordan wrote:

<<Anyway, Terry - I'm sure I'd like to let this western star fall - or at
least let the issue drop - as much as you would, so I'll keep my rebuttal
short.  You say lists are a matter of taste, and then you take the
chacun-a-son-gout way out - but consider this:>>

Well, I do think the ol' Western Star is petering out here. Lists of names are indeed a matter of taste, and therefore really difficult to argue, which is why I take the position that I do. Whatever anyone says, lists are really stealth or not-so-stealth proposals for a canon, and if one doesn't buy the great chain of being in a given list, then one doesn't buy the implied canon either--hence, my attitude on this.

<< the thesis of the essay is
that San Francisco has waned (or never developed) as a center of literary
opinion, while New York exercises something like a colonial influence over
the rest of the country. >>

Yeah, that's a fair assessment.

<<Gioia dates his list of specific contemporary New
York institutions with about the same vintage as his belittled San
Francisco example, the language poets. He gives no current examples. You
may not feel "New York intellectual" as a coded slur, you may not see that
his compare-and-contrast of east coast and west coast cities ignores that
the sprawl has hit here too, you may even find him as capable a stylist as
Hawthorne, but please acknowledge that the New York he describes is not
even the New York of the last forty years, let alone of the current
climate.>>

Well, I can't quite agree with you here, although things have gotten a lot more dynamic over the last five years given the current growth of the Web as a method for information dissemination and virtual community. In a traditional sense, in a dead-tree sense, NYC is as hegemonic as ever, because that's where all the most famous lit'ry figures live and/or publish. (Whether you or I THINK they should be famous is probably another thread, however.) Without the connected publicity machine of NYC, it's really hard to get beyond a regional reputation to a national one and NYC is still the center for this kind of fame if that's what you want. I myself have been working for about a decade to establish a strong regional literary community in the Northern VA area, but have had limited success because, at least in poetry, most of the area bards don't particularly agree with what I'm up to. However, our magazine has established via itself and its Web version a fairly large and increasingly independent virtual community.
 Many of this community are in NYC. Most are not. So NYC does still have a major centrality, but that is gradually changing and will continue to change--although as long as traditional media hold sway the change will be slow. Dana's characterizations of the coasts, I think, have truth in them, but also some wistfulness for things that might never have been.

<<Despite the fighter planes going back and forth over the length
of the island all night, who knows how long New York will be with us! I
would hope people remember it more accurately.>>

Well, again, see the above. And I do continue to worry about my New York friends because I'm not sure that Osama is yet done with them--or us in DC.

Basically, to sum up, I regard the essay as interesting, well-written, and provocative, but not fully developed and not the last word. It opens enough doors, enough speculation, that more proof is required for the thesis, so much so that it can't be contained in a magazine-length piece. The whole general topic of regionalism in the written word is actually quite fascinating and is probably a worthy topic for a book, should anyone choose to do it.

Hope that clarifies a few things, at least from this end. And I appreciate the discussion.

--Terry




From JBCM2  Wed Sep 19 18:42:39 2001
From: JBCM2 (JBCM2 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 18:42:39 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Chomsky Interview by Radio B92, Belgrade on WTC bombings
Message-ID: <118.4e0ee9b.28da795f@aol.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 08:12:40 -0400
From: Drazen Pantic <drazen at location1.org>
To: nettime <nettime-l at bbs.thing.net>
Subject: <nettime> Chomsky Interview by Radio B92, Belgrade on WTC bombings

Interviewing Chomsky

Radio B92, Belgrade



Why do you think these attacks happened?

To answer the question we must first identify the
perpetrators of the crimes. It is generally assumed,
plausibly, that their origin is the Middle East
region, and that the attacks probably trace back to
the Osama Bin Laden network, a widespread and complex
organization, doubtless inspired by Bin Laden but not
necessarily acting under his control. Let us assume
that this is true. Then to answer your question a
sensible person would try to ascertain Bin Laden's
views, and the sentiments of the large reservoir of
supporters he has throughout the region. About all of
this, we have a great deal of information. Bin Laden
has been interviewed extensively over the years by
highly reliable Middle East specialists, notably the
most eminent correspondent in the region, Robert Fisk
(London _Independent_), who has intimate knowledge of
the entire region and direct experience over decades.
A Saudi Arabian millionaire, Bin Laden became a
militant Islamic leader in the war to drive the
Russians out of Afghanistan. He was one of the many
religious fundamentalist extremists recruited, armed,
and financed by the CIA and their allies in Pakistani
intelligence to cause maximal harm to the Russians --
quite possibly delaying their withdrawal, many
analysts suspect -- though whether he personally
happened to have direct contact with the CIA is
unclear, and not particularly important. Not
surprisingly, the CIA preferred the most fanatic and
cruel fighters they could mobilize. The end result was
to "destroy a moderate regime and create a fanatical
one, from groups recklessly financed by the Americans"
(_London Times_ correspondent Simon Jenkins, also a
specialist on the region). These "Afghanis" as they
are called (many, like Bin Laden, not from
Afghanistan) carried out terror operations across the
border in Russia, but they terminated these after
Russia withdrew. Their war was not against Russia,
which they despise, but against the Russian occupation
and Russia's crimes against Muslims.



The "Afghanis" did not terminate their activities,
however. They joined Bosnian Muslim forces in the
Balkan Wars; the US did not object, just as it
tolerated Iranian support for them, for complex
reasons that we need not pursue here, apart from
noting that concern for the grim fate of the Bosnians
was not prominent among them. The "Afghanis" are also
fighting the Russians in Chechnya, and, quite
possibly, are involved in carrying out terrorist
attacks in Moscow and elsewhere in Russian territory.
Bin Laden and his "Afghanis" turned against the US in
1990 when they established permanent bases in Saudi
Arabia -- from his point of view, a counterpart to the
Russian occupation of Afghanistan, but far more
significant because of Saudi Arabia's special status
as the guardian of the holiest shrines.



Bin Laden is also bitterly opposed to the corrupt and
repressive regimes of the region, which he regards as
"un-Islamic," including the Saudi Arabian regime, the
most extreme Islamic fundamentalist regime in the
world, apart from the Taliban, and a close US ally
since its origins. Bin Laden despises the US for its
support of these regimes. Like others in the region,
he is also outraged by long-standing US support for
Israel's brutal military occupation, now in its 35th
year: Washington's decisive diplomatic, military, and
economic intervention in support of the killings, the
harsh and destructive siege over many years, the daily
humiliation to which Palestinians are subjected, the
expanding settlements designed to break the occupied
territories into Bantustan-like cantons and take
control of the resources, the gross violation of the
Geneva Conventions, and other actions that are
recognized as crimes throughout most of the world,
apart from the US, which has prime responsibility for
them. And like others, he contrasts Washington's
dedicated support for these crimes with the
decade-long US-British assault against the civilian
population of Iraq, which has devastated the society
and caused hundreds of thousands of deaths while
strengthening Saddam Hussein -- who was a favored
friend and ally of the US and Britain right through
his worst atrocities, including the gassing of the
Kurds, as people of the region also remember well,
even if Westerners prefer to forget the facts. These
sentiments are very widely shared. The _Wall Street
Journal_ (Sept. 14) published a survey of opinions of
wealthy and privileged Muslims in the Gulf region
(bankers, professionals, businessmen with close links
to the U.S.). They expressed much the same views:
resentment of the U.S. policies of supporting Israeli
crimes and blocking the international consensus on a
diplomatic settlement for many years while devastating
Iraqi civilian society, supporting harsh and
repressive anti-democratic regimes throughout the
region, and imposing barriers against economic
development by "propping up oppressive regimes." Among
the great majority of people suffering deep poverty
and oppression, similar sentiments are far more
bitter, and are the source of the fury and despair
that has led to suicide bombings, as commonly
understood by those who are interested in the facts.



The U.S., and much of the West, prefers a more
comforting story. To quote the lead analysis in the
_New York Times_ (Sept. 16), the perpetrators acted
out of "hatred for the values cherished in the West as
freedom, tolerance, prosperity, religious pluralism
and universal suffrage." U.S. actions are irrelevant,
and therefore need not even be mentioned (Serge
Schmemann). This is a convenient picture, and the
general stance is not unfamiliar in intellectual
history; in fact, it is close to the norm. It happens
to be completely at variance with everything we know,
but has all the merits of self-adulation and
uncritical support for power.

It is also widely recognized that Bin Laden and others
like him are praying for "a great assault on Muslim
states," which will cause "fanatics to flock to his
cause" (Jenkins, and many others.). That too is
familiar. The escalating cycle of violence is
typically welcomed by the harshest and most brutal
elements on both sides, a fact evident enough from the
recent history of the Balkans, to cite only one of
many cases.





What consequences will they have on US inner policy
and to the American self reception?

US policy has already been officially announced. The
world is being offered a "stark choice": join us, or
"face the certain prospect of death and destruction."
Congress has authorized the use of force against any
individuals or countries the President determines to
be involved in the attacks, a doctrine that every
supporter regards as ultra-criminal. That is easily
demonstrated. Simply ask how the same people would
have reacted if Nicaragua had adopted this doctrine
after the U.S. had rejected the orders of the World
Court to terminate its "unlawful use of force" against
Nicaragua and had vetoed a Security Council resolution
calling on all states to observe international law.
And that terrorist attack was far more severe and
destructive even than this atrocity.



As for how these matters are perceived here, that is
far more complex. One should bear in mind that the
media and the intellectual elites generally have their
particular agendas. Furthermore, the answer to this
question is, in significant measure, a matter of
decision: as in many other cases, with sufficient
dedication and energy, efforts to stimulate
fanaticism, blind hatred, and submission to authority
can be reversed. We all know that very well.





  Do you expect U.S. to profoundly change their policy
to the rest of the world?

The initial response was to call for intensifying the
policies that led to the fury and resentment that
provides the background of support for the terrorist
attack, and to pursue more intensively the agenda of
the most hard line elements of the leadership:
increased militarization, domestic regimentation,
attack on social programs. That is all to be expected.
Again, terror attacks, and the escalating cycle of
violence they often engender, tend to reinforce the
authority and prestige of the most harsh and
repressive elements of a society. But there is nothing
inevitable about submission to this course.





After the first shock, came fear of what the U.S.
answer is going to be. Are you afraid, too?

Every sane person should be afraid of the likely
reaction -- the one that has already been announced,
the one that probably answers Bin Laden's prayers. It
is highly likely to escalate the cycle of violence, in
the familiar way, but in this case on a far greater
scale.



The U.S. has already demanded that Pakistan terminate
the food and other supplies that are keeping at least
some of the starving and suffering people of
Afghanistan alive. If that demand is implemented,
unknown numbers of people who have not the remotest
connection to terrorism will die, possibly millions.
Let me repeat: the U.S. has demanded that Pakistan
kill possibly millions of people who are themselves
victims of the Taliban. This has nothing to do even
with revenge. It is at a far lower moral level even
than that. The significance is heightened by the fact
that this is mentioned in passing, with no comment,
and probably will hardly be noticed. We can learn a
great deal about the moral level of the reigning
intellectual culture of the West by observing the
reaction to this demand. I think we can be reasonably
confident that if the American population had the
slightest idea of what is being done in their name,
they would be utterly appalled. It would be
instructive to seek historical precedents.

If Pakistan does not agree to this and other U.S.
demands, it may come under direct attack as well --
with unknown consequences. If Pakistan does submit to
U.S. demands, it is not impossible that the government
will be overthrown by forces much like the Taliban --
who in this case will have nuclear weapons. That could
have an effect throughout the region, including the
oil producing states. At this point we are considering
the possibility of a war that may destroy much of
human society.



Even without pursuing such possibilities, the
likelihood is that an attack on Afghans will have
pretty much the effect that most analysts expect: it
will enlist great numbers of others to support of Bin
Laden, as he hopes. Even if he is killed, it will make
little difference. His voice will be heard on
cassettes that are distributed throughout the Islamic
world, and he is likely to be revered as a martyr,
inspiring others. It is worth bearing in mind that one
suicide bombing -- a truck driven into a U.S. military
base -- drove the world's major military force out of
Lebanon 20 years ago. The opportunities for such
attacks are endless. And suicide attacks are very hard
to prevent.





"The world will never be the same after 11.09.01". Do
you think so?

The horrendous terrorist attacks on Tuesday are
something quite new in world affairs, not in their
scale and character, but in the target. For the US,
this is the first time since the War of 1812 that its
national territory has been under attack, even threat.
It's colonies have been attacked, but not the national
territory itself. During these years the US virtually
exterminated the indigenous population, conquered half
of Mexico, intervened violently in the surrounding
region, conquered Hawaii and the Philippines (killing
hundreds of thousands of Filipinos), and in the past
half century particularly, extended its resort to
force throughout much of the world. The number of
victims is colossal. For the first time, the guns have
been directed the other way. The same is true, even
more dramatically, of Europe. Europe has suffered
murderous destruction, but from internal wars,
meanwhile conquering much of the world with extreme
brutality. It has not been under attack by its victims
outside, with rare exceptions (the IRA in England, for
example). It is therefore natural that NATO should
rally to the support of the US; hundreds of years of
imperial violence have an enormous impact on the
intellectual and moral culture.



It is correct to say that this is a novel event in
world history, not because of the scale of the
atrocity -- regrettably -- but because of the target.
How the West chooses to react is a matter of supreme
importance. If the rich and powerful choose to keep to
their traditions of hundreds of years and resort to
extreme violence, they will contribute to the
escalation of a cycle of violence, in a familiar
dynamic, with long-term consequences that could be
awesome. Of course, that is by no means inevitable. An
aroused public within the more free and democratic
societies can direct policies towards a much more
humane and honorable course.



From JforJames  Wed Sep 19 19:49:51 2001
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 19:49:51 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Diameter of the Bomb
Message-ID: <107.5ea232f.28da891f@aol.com>

Thanks, David. This has always been an 
important poem for me, however desolate
and inconsolable it may be in closing.
Finnegan



From Rsgwynn1  Wed Sep 19 21:00:20 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 21:00:20 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Macaronic verse
Message-ID: <54.1b2774f1.28da99a4@cs.com>

I was telling my students tonight about the confusion I'd expressed here 
about the term "macaronic verse."

One of them, a droll wag, replied, "Macaronic.  Does that have to do with 
craft?"


Think about this one a minute.
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From adead_poet  Wed Sep 19 22:36:30 2001
From: adead_poet (dead poet)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 21:36:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] not afraid to ask another question
Message-ID: <F171jp3b6uIU1Gj03oH00001d72@hotmail.com>

does anyone know when a complete edition of gwendolyn brooks will be coming 
out? i know it is getting close to a year since her death. but i don't know 
how long it usually is after a poet's death when they come out with a 
complete work. i don't even know where to look for this type of information, 
but i'm curious. brooks is one of my favorite poets (might be my favorite) 
and it's a book i'll run out and buy pretty much as soon as it is released. 
anybody know?

thanks
jason


_________________________________________________________________
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From grahamd  Wed Sep 19 22:56:52 2001
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 21:56:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brooks
Message-ID: <200109200259.f8K2xDw55433@mx2.mx.voyager.net>

I'd love to know the answer to this question too.  Even before her death, I
heard a rumor that a full collected edition was in preparation.  Hope so. 
It's sad that there was no truly definitive edition issued during her long
lifetime--and that most readers still know her work mainly by the entirely
inadequate 1963 selected edition.  For example, my favorite of her books,
*In the Mecca*, is not represented in that volume, nor are about 10 other
books.

Since Brooks left Harper & Row in the late 1960s and began publishing only
in Black-owned presses, her work largely dropped out of sight in terms of
mainstream attention, while "We Real Cool" has been endlessly anthologized
at the expense of better, more characteristic poems.  There is some dropoff
in quality in the later books (not suprising given her age), but there
remain some very fine poems from her last couple decades.  

In the meantime there is *Blacks* (1991), the closest to a collected that we
have--well worth getting, though still not complete and it's not in every
store.  

David Graham
_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________

----------
>From: "dead poet" <adead_poet at hotmail.com>
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] not afraid to ask another question
>Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001, 9:36 PM
>

>does anyone know when a complete edition of gwendolyn brooks will be coming 
>out? i know it is getting close to a year since her death. but i don't know 
>how long it usually is after a poet's death when they come out with a 
>complete work. i don't even know where to look for this type of information, 
>but i'm curious. brooks is one of my favorite poets (might be my favorite) 
>and it's a book i'll run out and buy pretty much as soon as it is released. 
>anybody know?
>
>thanks
>jason
>
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From adead_poet  Wed Sep 19 23:12:18 2001
From: adead_poet (dead poet)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 22:12:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brooks
Message-ID: <F132s9aAOPpBpcXCXWt0000201f@hotmail.com>

glad to hear someone else is as anxiously waiting as i am. i do have 
'blacks' as well as the selected poems. i haven't yet read blacks though, 
but i'll start it soon. but if you heard about a full collected edition 
before she died, hopefully that means it won't be too much longer before it 
comes out.


jason

>
>I'd love to know the answer to this question too.  Even before her death, I
>heard a rumor that a full collected edition was in preparation.  Hope so.
>It's sad that there was no truly definitive edition issued during her long
>lifetime--and that most readers still know her work mainly by the entirely
>inadequate 1963 selected edition.  For example, my favorite of her books,
>*In the Mecca*, is not represented in that volume, nor are about 10 other
>books.
>
>Since Brooks left Harper & Row in the late 1960s and began publishing only
>in Black-owned presses, her work largely dropped out of sight in terms of
>mainstream attention, while "We Real Cool" has been endlessly anthologized
>at the expense of better, more characteristic poems.  There is some dropoff
>in quality in the later books (not suprising given her age), but there
>remain some very fine poems from her last couple decades.
>
>In the meantime there is *Blacks* (1991), the closest to a collected that 
>we
>have--well worth getting, though still not complete and it's not in every
>store.
>
>David Graham
>_______________________
>David Graham
>grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
>_______________________
>


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp




From Rsgwynn1  Wed Sep 19 23:32:11 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 23:32:11 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brooks
Message-ID: <25.1b6e517f.28dabd3b@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/19/2001 9:58:22 PM Central Daylight Time, 
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu writes:


> In the meantime there is *Blacks* (1991), the closest to a collected that we
> have--well worth getting, though still not complete and it's not in every
> store.  

Isn't there a fairly recent selected Brooks?
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From grahamd  Wed Sep 19 23:45:24 2001
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2001 22:45:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brooks
Message-ID: <200109200344.f8K3iRX07471@mx9.mx.voyager.net>

I'd love to be wrong about this, but I think that the spiffy newish Selected
you refer to is just the old 1963 edition in a splashy new cover.  It's
still published by HarperCollins, I see from Amazon, successor to the old
Harper & Row.  Like I say, I'll gladly stand corrected, though. . . .

DG
_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________

----------
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Brooks
Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001, 10:32 PM


In a message dated 9/19/2001 9:58:22 PM Central Daylight Time,
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu writes: 


In the meantime there is *Blacks* (1991), the closest to a collected that we

have--well worth getting, though still not complete and it's not in every 
store.  


Isn't there a fairly recent selected Brooks? 
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From msnider  Thu Sep 20 08:19:06 2001
From: msnider (Michael Snider)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:19:06 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Brooks
In-Reply-To: <200109200344.f8K3iRX07471@mx9.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <200109201223.IAA28058@smtp10.atl.mindspring.net>

It's a Perennial Classic reprint of the '63.

On Wednesday, September 19, 2001, at 11:45 PM, David Graham wrote:

> I'd love to be wrong about this, but I think that the spiffy newish 
> Selected you refer to is just the old 1963 edition in a splashy new 
> cover. ?It's still published by HarperCollins, I see from Amazon, 
> successor to the old Harper & Row. ?Like I say, I'll gladly stand 
> corrected, though. . . .
>
> DG
> _______________________
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> _______________________
>
> ----------
> From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Brooks
> Date: Wed, Sep 19, 2001, 10:32 PM
>
>
> In a message dated 9/19/2001 9:58:22 PM Central Daylight Time, 
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu writes:
>
>
> In the meantime there is *Blacks* (1991), the closest to a collected 
> that we
> have--well worth getting, though still not complete and it's not in 
> every
>
> store. ?
>
>
> Isn't there a fairly recent selected Brooks?
>



From Henry_Gould  Thu Sep 20 08:34:29 2001
From: Henry_Gould (Henry Gould)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 08:34:29 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] war footage
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010920080932.00aa7bd0@postoffice.brown.edu>

Much has been made of the weirdly cinematic aspect of the 9/11 
attacks.  Has anyone noticed the
eerie resemblance, in facial  mannerisms & body movements, between the 
prophet of  cultural purism
(bin Laden) and Alec Guinness playing King Faisal in David Lean's "Lawrence 
of Arabia"?
Or is it all in my mind. . .

But seriously. . . we have to get beyond this level of movie images. . . I 
keep brooding on the new
reality, and the only conclusion I can come to is that: 1. there is no 
simple military
solution to a global guerrilla war inspired & supported by a widespread 
populist-extremist
ideology.  2. There is no simple anti-military solution.  Just declaring 
that you're "against war"
solves nothing.  You have to propose an alternative which aims, not for 
triumph/victory,
but for a peaceful future.  3.  The cultural ground of popular support for 
jihad/terrorist
ideology has to be shifted away.  How can this be done without compromising 
our own
values and legitimate interests?  I think we need non-governmental 
organizations that
simultaneously assert an opposition to both theocracy and imperialism, and 
provide models
of peaceful interaction across the West/Middle East divide.

Henry

********************************************************
HG afloat:  www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html
www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark
    "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam




From JBCM2  Thu Sep 20 15:10:27 2001
From: JBCM2 (JBCM2 at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:10:27 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Who Is Osama Bin Laden?  Part lll....Addendum to Parts I-III
Message-ID: <137.1e21a9a.28db9923@aol.com>

Stinger in the tail of US policy
By Ranjit Devraj

NEW DELHI - One worry for United States forces considering any aerial 
assault on the bases of Osama bin Laden is the arsenal of deadly Stinger 
missiles provided by Washington during the Afghan war in the 1980s.

The shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missiles are part of a stockpile of 
infantry weaponry worth more than US$8 billion that has been a source of 
worry to Indian troops fighting jihadis (warriors) in the disputed 
territory of Kashmir.

According to security officials, the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) 
made desperate efforts following the end of the Afghan war with the pullout 
of the Soviet army in 1989 to buy back at least some of the 1,000 Stingers 
it had supplied to anti-Soviet forces in Afghanistan. But they met with 
limited success, they say.

The Stingers and other weaponry and the Mujahideen who fought the Soviet 
occupation, now transformed into the Taliban that rules most of 
Afghanistan, are turning out to be the fateful seeds of policy that 
Washington sowed in the region, along with support from Pakistan's 
Inter-Service Intelligence (ISI).

Experts say that when the Russians invaded Afghanistan in 1979, the CIA 
pumped in $2.1 billion over a 10-year period to create an anti-Soviet 
resistance that included 200,000 fighters garnered from 20 Muslim 
countries. Bin Laden was one of those who joined the Afghan jihad (holy war).

India's leading defense specialist, K Subrahmanyam, says that the Saudi 
fugitive bin Laden, based in Afghanistan and identified by the United 
States as a prime suspect in the September 11 terror attack, had himself 
warned his American benefactors that once the Soviets were ejected, it 
would be the turn of the other superpower to feel the heat of jihad.

But no one took bin Laden seriously, and with the Cold War over, Washington 
shut its eyes to the Afghan Mujahideen and the ISI and allowed them to 
spend their energies on Kashmir, a dispute simmering between Pakistan and 
India for more than 50 years, analysts say.

Pakistan itself began to suffer a backlash, with the Taliban extending and 
exerting influence among the influential clergy and various Kashmiri 
militant groups based within the country.

This despite the fact that the Taliban owes to the ISI its huge military 
success in confining the United Nations-recognized opposition, the Northern 
Alliance, to about 5 percent of Afghanistan in the far north of the country.

By the mid-90s, the Americans were showing alarm that Taliban-ISI 
activities had found a new source of funding in growing, processing and 
trafficking heroin, according to the South Asia Analysis Group, an 
independent New Delhi-based think tank.

In July this year Brigadier Imtiaz, who led the heroin operations for the 
ISI, was convicted and jailed for eight years for holding unaccountable 
bank assets worth $40 million, apart from owning vast properties.

Writing in the Pakistani daily The News, the analyst H K Burqi blames all 
the major ills that Islamabad now faces on the "swashbuckling years of the 
Afghan jihad."

"The heroin, the Kalashnikovs, the Afghan refugees, the sectarian lashkars 
[jihadists], the all-consuming corruption, nationwide outbreaks of violent 
crime, they were all bequeathed by the Zia regime. The dictator [Zia 
ul-Haq] knew all about it. He wanted to keep the officer corps happy and 
loyal," Burqi writes.

Evidently, Islamabad has had to pay a heavy price for acting as a frontline 
state for US interests during the Afghan war and at the end of it, trying 
to convert military gains into "strategic depth" for itself in the region 
by continuing the ISI-Taliban relationship.

Other people in the region have had to pay a price as well. The Kashmiris 
for one are now suing for peace at any cost and have been reduced to 
resisting attempts to "Talibanize" the valley by militants - mainly, recent 
news reports say, requiring women to wear the burqa (veil) on pain of 
having their faces disfigured or legs shot at.

During the July summit with Indian leaders at Agra, Pakistan's military 
ruler President General Pervez Musharraf, when reminded of the heavy 
civilian casualties in Kashmir through a decade of armed militancy, 
remarked that this was normal to all freedom struggles.

But ordinary Afghans have had to flee in droves to Pakistan and other 
neighboring countries such as Iran and India and have even turned up 
recently in places as far afield as Australia, simply because they are 
unable to live in their own blighted homeland, where, according to UN 
figures, four million people are starving because of US-led sanctions.

With the US now ordering an embargo on oil and food supplies over the 
Pakistan border and planning to launch aerial assaults, even more of the 
long-suffering Afghan population is pouring over the Afghan borders.

Musharraf has now been asked by Washington to help dismantle the very 
structure it was encouraged to set up in Kabul on the suspicion that the 
Taliban's Arab guest, bin Laden, was behind last week's terrorist attacks.

The general has naturally balked at the prospect, but cannot play the same 
game of asking for "convincing evidence" to show that bin Laden was 
actually involved, as Pakistan did after the earlier bombing attack on the 
World Trade Center.

This time, Washington is clearly in no mood for protracted debates or legal 
niceties, such as waiting for a UN mandate for an attack on Afghanistan.

Musharraf has his own problems from jihadists operating in his country. So 
far he has been able to ignore their activities, including sectarian murder 
under justification of providing support for armed militancy in Kashmir, 
the liberation of which territory from Indian rule is a hugely popular 
issue in Pakistan.

In addition to that, he has been under international pressure to restore 
democracy in the wake of his 1999 seizure of power through a coup.

"General Musharraf has sought American indulgence of his deviation from 
democracy on the grounds that he plans to act against Islamic extremists," 
writes Husain Haqqani, a Pakistani commentator and former information 
minister, in an article published in the Indian Express newspaper.

But last week's suicide attacks on New York and Washington have left 
Musharraf with little room for prevarication. The elimination of terrorism 
is now on top of Washington's agenda - making the Kashmir issue, 
restoration of democracy in Pakistan and even nuclear proliferation in 
South Asia secondary issues.

(Inter Press Service)



From JforJames  Thu Sep 20 15:52:18 2001
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 15:52:18 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Real Flag
Message-ID: <127.46c31db.28dba2f2@aol.com>

The Real Flag

I asked her what she was sewing.
Little black stitches in a field of white.

"The real flag, " she said, 
"The Constitution & Bill of Rights."



From duemer  Thu Sep 20 17:30:08 2001
From: duemer (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 17:30:08 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] war footage
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010920080932.00aa7bd0@postoffice.brown.edu>
Message-ID: <004001c1421b$6c8e4d60$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

Henry,
my wife Carole proposes a Marshall Plan for the Muslim world. Overpower them
with resources.

My Vietnamese friends in Hanoi are fond of sweeping one hand in an arc that
includes new restaurants, internet cafes, bars, hotels & saying, "Look, you
guys won." But we didn't "win" until we stopped dropping bombs. And there is
of course the dawning realization among many of those newly middle class
Vietnamese of just what the consequences of this victory will be for their
country & culture. [And I am also conscious of the dangers of drawing
analogies between one historical situation / cultural complex & another.]

Joe
======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
======================








From duemer  Thu Sep 20 17:45:20 2001
From: duemer (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 17:45:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] war footage
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20010920080932.00aa7bd0@postoffice.brown.edu> <004001c1421b$6c8e4d60$18724342@twcny.rr.com>
Message-ID: <004701c1421d$8bcf7bc0$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

In an interview in Salon, Robert Kaplin writes:

"We really are a challenge. And also because the modern technological world
is interpreted through an American prism. We've always represented the
future. And our popular culture has the ability to suck up their new
emerging middle classes -- in Egypt and other Islamic and developing
countries -- because it's informal, it's not aristocratic -- it's jeans,
computers, music. Because it's an informal culture, anyone can join it, and
it becomes very enticing. And that's the threat. They hate us, but it's a
type of respect."


======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
======================








From msnider  Thu Sep 20 19:53:05 2001
From: msnider (Michael Snider)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 19:53:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] war footage
In-Reply-To: <004701c1421d$8bcf7bc0$18724342@twcny.rr.com>
Message-ID: <200109202357.TAA02974@johnson.mail.mindspring.net>

Kaplan has a number of books, some originating as articles in The 
Atlantic, which are pertinent to our (the US) position today -- Balkan 
Ghosts, The Coming Anarchy, and The Ends of the Earth.  There's also 
Naipal's Among the Believers and Ian Baruma's God's Dust.

On Thursday, September 20, 2001, at 05:45 PM, Joseph Duemer wrote:

> In an interview in Salon, Robert Kaplin writes:
>
> "We really are a challenge. And also because the modern technological 
> world
> is interpreted through an American prism. We've always represented the
> future. And our popular culture has the ability to suck up their new
> emerging middle classes -- in Egypt and other Islamic and developing
> countries -- because it's informal, it's not aristocratic -- it's jeans,
> computers, music. Because it's an informal culture, anyone can join it, 
> and
> it becomes very enticing. And that's the threat. They hate us, but 
> it's a
> type of respect."
>
>
> ======================
> Joseph Duemer
> School of Liberal Arts, 5750
> Clarkson University
> Potsdam NY 13699
> 315.268.3967
> ======================
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From grahamd  Thu Sep 20 22:58:32 2001
From: grahamd (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 21:58:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Casualty
Message-ID: <200109210255.f8L2tHm23182@mx8.mx.voyager.net>


Casualty

          --Seamus Heaney

     I
     He would drink by himself
     And raise a weathered thumb
     Towards the high shelf,
     Calling another rum
     And blackcurrant, without
     Having to raise his voice,
     Or order a quick stout
     By a lifting of the eyes
     And a discreet dumb-show
     Of pulling off the top;
     At closing time would go
     In waders and peaked cap
     Into the showery dark,
     A dole-kept breadwinner
     But a natural for work.
     I loved his whole manner,
     Sure-footed but too sly,
     His deadpan sidling tact,
     His fisherman's quick eye
     And turned observant back.

     Incomprehensible
     To him, my other life.
     Sometimes on the high stool,
     Too busy with his knife
     At a tobacco plug
     And not meeting my eye,
     In the pause after a slug
     He mentioned poetry.
     We would be on our own
     And, always politic
     and shy of condescension,
     I would manage by some trick
     To switch the talk to eels
     Or lore of the horse and cart
     Or the Provisionals.

     But my tentative art
     His turned back watches too:
     He was blown to bits
     Out drinking in a curfew
     Others obeyed, three nights
     After they shot dead
     The thirteen men in Derry.
     PARAS THIRTEEN, the walls said,
     BOGSIDE NIL. That Wednesday
     Everyone held
     His breath and trembled.

     II
     It was a day of cold
     Raw silence, wind-blown
     Surplice and soutane:
     Rained-on, flower-laden
     Coffin after coffin
     Seemed to float from the door
     Of the packed cathedral
     Like blossoms on slow water.
     The common funeral
     Unrolled its swaddling band,
     Lapping, tightening
     Till we were braced and bound
     Like brothers in a ring.

     But he would not be held
     At home by his own crowd
     Whatever threats were phoned
     Whatever black flags waved.
     I see him as he turned
     In that bombed offending place,
     Remorse fused with terror
     In his still knowable face,
     His cornered outfaced stare
     Blinding in the flash.

     He had gone miles away
     For he drank like a fish
     Nightly, naturally
     Swimming towards the lure
     Of warm lit-up places,
     The blurred mesh and murmur
     Drifting among glasses
     In the gregarious smoke.
     How culpable was he
     That last night when he broke
     Our tribe's complicity?
     'Now, you're supposed to be
     An educated man,'
     I hear him say. 'Puzzle me
     The right answer to that one.'

     III
     I missed his funeral,
     Those quiet walkers
     And sideways talkers
     Shoaling out of his lane
     To the respectable
     Purring of the hearse...
     They move in equal pace
     With the habitual
     Slow consolation
     Of a dawdling engine,
     The line lifted, hand
     Over fist, cold sunshine
     On the water, the land
     Banked under fog: that morning
     When he took me in his boat,
     The screw purling, turning
     Indolent fathoms white,
     I tasted freedom with him.
     To get out early, haul
     Steadily off the bottom,
     Dispraise the catch, and smile
     As you find a rhythm
     Working you, slow mile by mile,
     Into your proper haunt
     Somewhere, well out, beyond...

     Dawn-sniffing revenant,
     Plodder through midnight rain,
     Question me again.

_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________



From gmcvay  Thu Sep 20 23:44:40 2001
From: gmcvay (Gwyn McVay)
Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2001 23:44:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] DC Poetry
References: <Pine.NEB.4.33.0109191335050.8237-100000@panix3.panix.com>
Message-ID: <3BAAB75A.EE9D4E71@patriot.net>

CP,

hmph. There is also *me*, toiling in more obscurity than most of my
classmates on a biggo longo snake of a poem, but certainly you weren't
going to descend to such a level of practically-nonexistence!

Yes, the Writer's Center scene is pretty boring, although bringing the
Vietnamese writers there was a coup. But as Jordan points out, there is
the amazing Heather Fuller; as someone else pointed out, DJ Renegade did
a great deal of his reading at the MLK, Jr. Library; point, point,
point, there are points of light here.

To explicitly brag on GMU, and inevitably I will leave many someones out
through forgetting, Masonites who have gone on to kick ass and take
names include the aforementioned Fuller; Graham Foust; Jean Donnelly;
Leslie Bumstead; Jeff McDaniel; Wendi Kaufman (not a poet but worth
mention! gasp!); Betsy Andrews; and members of my own generation like
the Mirakove-Landers-Fugate-Coleman-Cobb racket.

(Speaking of GMU, I wonder what "leftist credentials" would be
satisfactory to you in Forche's case beyond being on the ground in El
Salvador, fleeing two days in advance of the slaying of Monse?or Romero,
and being a war correspondent from Beirut?)

Through the efforts of Rod Smith and Mark Wallace, whom you dismiss, and
others, we've had reading series that have brought us Pierre Joris,
Jerome Rothenberg, David Shapiro, Edwin Torres, Lee Ann Brown, Lisa
Jarnot (correct me if I'm wrong), and a good deal of other good stuff.

So, like, what is it you actually want?

Signed, Very Curious Obscure DC Poet



From JforJames  Fri Sep 21 09:59:17 2001
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 09:59:17 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Subject Too Big For Poetry
Message-ID: <c3.167fee59.28dca1b5@aol.com>

Gray Jacobik passed sent this to me...

Date:   9/20/01 8:57:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From:   gray at grayjacobik.com (Gray Jacobik)
To: jforJames at aol.com, andersond at easternct.edu

This came over my woman's poetry list serve. I thought you might find
it interesting.

Gray

>
> A subject too big for poetry
>
> Don't ask the U.S. laureate Billy Collins to write about Tuesday's
disaster.
> The terror is overwhelming, he tells SANDRA MARTIN
>
> By SANDRA MARTIN
>
>
> Saturday, September 15, 2001 ? Print Edition, Page R3
>
> Like most people, U.S. poet laureate Billy Collins was following the
sweet
> banality of routine on Tuesday morning. "I was driving back from
taking the
> dog out around the lake we usually walk around," he said in an
interview
> from his home in Westchester County in New York, when he heard on
the radio
> that there was a fire in the World Trade Center.
>
> "I know people don't smoke any more, but I thought somebody had
thrown a
> match in a wastebasket," he recalled. When he got home, he turned on
the
> television as the second plane was plowing into the south tower, an
image
> has been crashing into his forehead about every 90 seconds since
then. "I
> think that it has created a kind of burn on people's retinas," he
says.
>
> "Will you ever write a poem about what happened on Tuesday?"
>
> "No," he says in a response that comes quickly and emphatically.
>
> "Why not?"
>
> "You can't approach something like this frontally in a poem -- at
least I
> can't. It will knock you over. It is like walking into a big wave.
You will
> fall on your bathing suit."
>
> Isn't it his job to set aside his feelings and write a poem offering
us
> solace, inspiration and wisdom?
>
> No, says Collins. "I am a person before I am the poet laureate."
Rather than
> toiling away in an office in the basement of the White House
composing
> birthday poems, his role is to be a literary ambassador, travelling
the
> country and raising consciousness about the value of poetry.
>
> Still, being poet laureate is an odd position for Collins because he
can't
> think of any activity that is more private, solitary and deeply
subjective
> than writing poetry. "Poets, as they become published and go out and
give
> readings, move out of that condition of solitude into something like
a
> public life, and the position of poet laureate is the most public
extreme
> that a poet can achieve. In some unfortunate ways, it pulls you out
of the
> cell of privacy that you tend to write in."
>
> The scale of the devastation has reduced the idea of fame to
rubble -- for
> once, the famous are ordinary. That is the way it should be in a
tragedy of
> this magnitude, he says.
>
> "Maybe some people can say things better or differently than others,
but
> there are no experts here. My reactions are not aesthetic or poetic
or
> professional. They are simply human."
>
> Tuesday made Collins realize how very different this tragedy was
from the
> Oklahoma bombing. "That was one horrible moment," he says. "This
seems to be
> the beginning of many horrible moments, and I think it makes the
future so
> unsettled and so strange that it is impossible to walk into this
ongoing
> storm of uncertainty and find a position to speak from, let alone to
write
> something."
>
> Poems -- at least good ones -- do not spring forth fully formed on
command.
> The creative imagination works away in private, digesting direct and
> vicarious experience. For Collins, a poem takes place in "an Emily
Dickinson
> backyard." It is not a "directly reactive performance to public
events," he
> says, adding that he doesn't "write a poem with a gun to my head" or
rush
> things into print.
>
> Besides, he feels you can't "really get your arms around" something
this
> big, that a poem could get crushed by the sheer weight of the event.
"There
> is a tremendous lot of bad poetry that has been written about
subjects that
> are too big for the poem," he says.
>
> Poetry has always been a vehicle to contain and express grief, but
that
> doesn't mean you need a new poem every time there is a public or
private
> tragedy. People take solace from rereading old and familiar ones.
>
> "Poetry is one of the original grief counselling centres," Collins
says. "It
> has always been a way of giving form to wailing and to the
convulsions of
> grief and in that sense, it is always relevant because it gives form
to
> emotions that are flying out of control."
>
> Collins has been writing poetry long enough and well enough -- he
has a
> stack of collections including Sailing Alone Around the Room: New
and
> Selected Poems, which is being published by Random House this
autumn -- to
> know that poetry flourishes in private moments of reflection. Making
poetry
> too specific is the best way to give it a limited shelf life, he
says.
>
> "There is something basic about any human experience, including this
one,
> but the specifics of this terror are overwhelming. Poetry always has
to find
> the private scope, and the events that are being played out this
week are on
> too cosmic and shocking a scale," he says. "You don't read poetry to
find
> out about the poet, you read poetry to find out about yourself."
>
> Before he retreated to the private spaces that poets inhabit,
Collins
> reminded me that the late American poet Richard Hugo said, "Never
write a
> poem about anything that ought to have a poem written about it;"
Dickinson
> said, "Tell the truth but tell it slant;" and W. B. Yeats wrote the
> definitive comment about poetry on demand in On being asked for a
War Poem.
>
> I think it better that in times like these
>
> A poet keep his mouth shut, for in truth
>
> We have no gift to set a statesman right;
>
> He has had enough of meddling who can please
>
> A young girl in the indolence of her youth,
>
> Or an old man upon a winter's night.
>
> Billy Collins will be appearing at the International Festival of
Authors in
> Toronto in October.
>



From JforJames  Fri Sep 21 11:20:00 2001
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:20:00 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] POETRY SALZBURG REVIEW
Message-ID: <87.105877fb.28dcb4a0@aol.com>

Date:    Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:03:20 +0200
From:    "Wolfgang.Goertschacher at sbg.ac.at" <Wolfgang.Goertschacher at SBG.AC.AT>
Subject: POETRY SALZBURG REVIEW No. 1

POETRY SALZBURG REVIEW

Editor: Wolfgang G=F6rtschacher (University of Salzburg, Dept. of English,
Akademiestr. 24, A-5020 Salzburg, AUSTRIA)

Editorial Board: David Miller (6 Waynflette House, Union Street, London SE1
OLE, GB);
Lisa Fishman (Dept. of English, Beloit College, Beloit, WI 53511, USA);
Klaus Martens (Universit=E4t des Saarlandes, Fachrichtung 8.3 Anglistik,
Gebaeude 35, D-66041 Saarbr=FCcken, Germany);
Heidi Pr=FCger (Ortsplatz 5, A-2650 Payerbach, AUSTRIA).


No. 1 (178 pp.), subscription (2 issues) =A38.50 / US$ 20.00

New Poetry by:
Anne MacLeod, Lisa Fishman, Jeffrey Carson, Susanna Roxman, Nancy L. Dahl,
Pauline Kirk, Paul Mazery, Gary Duehr, Virgil Suarez, Richard O'Connell,
Nicholas Martin, Colette Connor, Janet McCann, Massimo Maggiari, Edward
Lowbury, Leah Fritz, Michael Gregg Michaud, Theo Brown, Zoran Zinzovski,
Nancy Ryan Keeling, Yogesh G. Nair, Mark DeFoe, M. A. Schaffner, Ben
Wilensky, Michael T. Soper, M.P.A. Sheaffer, Idris Caffrey, Donald Ward,
Todd James Pierce, Jennifer Hill Kaucher, Michael Armstrong, James
Brockway, Estill Pollock.

Prose:
Holger Klein on Anne MacLeod's poetry,
Estill Pollock on his work,
Andrew Duncan on Barry MacSweeney,
Holger Klein on a new version of the Wordsworthian 'Boy'.
Reviews by John Muckle (OTHER: British and Irish Poetry since 1970),
Charles Hobday (The Poetry of A. C. Jacobs), 
ann Lovelock (on Ian Robinson and Ray Seaford)



From JforJames  Fri Sep 21 14:04:42 2001
From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 14:04:42 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Submissions for Anthology of Comic Poetry
Message-ID: <166.13e916c.28dcdb3a@aol.com>

From:         "Gabriel M. Gudding" <gudding at SUNSET.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU>
Subject:      Submissions for Anthology of Comic Poetry

I am putting together an anthology of comic poetry by contemporary women
and am seeking submissions via snailmail. Include SASE, bio, and cover
letter, please. Send to Gabriel Gudding, 318-B North 16th St., Oxford MS
38655-3712.

Questions?: please backchannel
gudding at olemiss.edu
gwg6 at cornell.edu

Thank you.

Gabe



From GrahamD  Fri Sep 21 14:48:11 2001
From: GrahamD (Graham, David)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 13:48:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Auden etc.
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDF0D@mail.ripon.edu>

Another forward from that other list.  From Slate, originally:


culturebox

Auden on Bin Laden
By Eric McHenry

Thursday, Sept. 20, 2001, at 12:30 p.m. PT



 	
Last Wednesday I e-mailed W.H. Auden's poem " September 1, 1939" to members
of my family. Two days later a friend e-mailed it to me, having received it
from another friend who was circulating it. On Saturday my mother told me
that Scott Simon had read portions of it on NPR. And on Monday my wife, a
prep school teacher, saw it lying on the faculty photocopy machine.

Tragedy sends people to poetry. "Suffering is exact," Philip Larkin wrote,
but the vocabulary of consolation is loaded with abstraction and clich?, as
anyone who has tried to write a sympathy note in the past week knows.
Naturally, there's a certain comfort in pillowy, familiar phrases?"This too
shall pass," "Our hearts are with you"?but living through a day like Sept.
11, and listening to all the subsequent cant from public figures and TV
personalities, can leave people craving language that's as precise as their
pain.

What's striking about "September 1, 1939," which Auden wrote in response to
Germany's invasion of Poland, is how precisely it matches much of what
happened last Tuesday, how weirdly prescient it seems. Of course, that's the
point: Zealotry and violence are cyclical?"The habit-forming pain,/
Mismanagement and grief:/ We must suffer them all again." But those weren't
the lines that brought me to my bookshelf last Wednesday, looking for the
poem. The passages that had been playing through my head since I first saw
the World Trade Center footage were more concrete and actually seemed more
specific to the past week than to the poem's occasion. "Where blind
skyscrapers use/ Their full height to proclaim/ The strength of Collective
Man," and "Into the ethical life/ The dense commuters come." The poem, which
is set in Manhattan, opens with the "unmentionable odour of death/
Offend[ing] the September night," something it could have done only
figuratively in 1939, and the poem closes with a candlelight vigil: "May I
[...]/ Beleaguered by the same/ Negation and despair,/ Show an affirming
flame." Even when Auden is writing explicitly about Hitler, his language
could hardly be altered to better fit the hijackers. Borrowing terms from
Jungian psychoanalysis, he wonders "What huge imago made/ A psychopathic
god." My Muslim friends, whose god is unrecognizable in the murderous
theology of Osama Bin Laden, have spent the past week wondering the same
thing. Ezra Pound defined poetry as "news that stays news," but even he may
not have had this degree of fidelity in mind.

Coincidences aside, "September 1, 1939" stays news because it reveals a
little more of itself with each reading. Last Wednesday, it gave me some of
the emotional nourishment I had been needing, in the form of concise
explanations ("Those to whom evil is done/ Do evil in return") and bold
pronouncements ("There is no such thing as the State/ And no one exists
alone [...]/ We must love one another or die"). By Thursday, though, it had
unsettled me again. Those phrases, despite their rhetorical poise, are
undermined by Auden's ambivalence and self-contradiction. Auden seems to
doubt whether universal love can obtain in a world where "the error bred in
the bone/ Of each woman and each man/ Craves what it cannot have,/ Not
universal love/ But to be loved alone." And his poem is, as the critic John
Fuller points out, "a parade of rhetoric designed to question the function
of rhetoric."

A poem, of course, that offered only unambiguous answers to these sorts of
questions would neither be news nor stay news. Poetry does justice to life
by describing it, not by reducing it to more reasonable dimensions. So all
of Auden's doubts and doublings-back only improve the poem?as far as John
Fuller and I are concerned, anyway. Auden, apparently, decided that its
ambiguities couldn't be reconciled with its declamatory tone. Rereading it
shortly after its publication, he arrived at the line "We must love one
another or die" and "said to myself: 'That's a damned lie! We must die
anyway.' So, in the next edition, I altered it to 'We must love one another
and die.' This didn't seem to do either, so I cut the stanza. Still no good.
The whole poem, I realized, was infected with an incurable dishonesty?and
must be scrapped."

He banished it from subsequent editions of his work, and I'm not sure,
frankly, how it finally found its way back into print. I'm thankful it did.
Its thematic ambiguity only strengthens the sense that it is the poem for
our present pain. When Auden called it "trash which [he was] ashamed to have
written," as Edward Mendelson observes, he was taking the poem "far more
seriously?and taking poetic language far more seriously?than his critics
ever did." By expressing such disappointment in a poem so great, by
attaching such a profound sense of failure to it, Auden kept in play the
possibility?by no means a certainty?that there are sorrows even the most
well-chosen words can't reach.


Join The Fray What did you think of this article?

	POST A MESSAGE
READ MESSAGES	

 


===================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
===================



From moira_russell  Fri Sep 21 15:00:45 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 11:00:45 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Auden etc.
Message-ID: <F337ujn9eWfXTg29snD0000728c@hotmail.com>

Thank you for forwarding a fine article, David.  It reminded me that Auden's 
lines were also used by Larry Kramer in confronting AIDS in "The Normal 
Heart," particularly "We must love one another or die." What could be more 
specific than Auden's title and opening lines -- day, month, year, bar, 
street all firmly established -- and yet the underlying message of the poem, 
a kind of battered skeptical hope and refusing to despair of despair, speaks 
to and for so many other tragedies.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

_________________________________________________________________
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From paul.lake  Fri Sep 21 03:45:18 2001
From: paul.lake (Paul Lake)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 02:45:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Auden etc.
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDF0D@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <B7D05A3E.1CC4%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 9/21/01 1:48 PM, Graham, David at GrahamD at mail.ripon.edu wrote:

> Another forward from that other list.  From Slate, originally:
> 
> 
> culturebox
> 
> Auden on Bin Laden
> By Eric McHenry
> 
> Thursday, Sept. 20, 2001, at 12:30 p.m. PT
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Last Wednesday I e-mailed W.H. Auden's poem " September 1, 1939" to members
> of my family. Two days later a friend e-mailed it to me, having received it
> from another friend who was circulating it. On Saturday my mother told me
> that Scott Simon had read portions of it on NPR. And on Monday my wife, a
> prep school teacher, saw it lying on the faculty photocopy machine.
> 
> Tragedy sends people to poetry. "Suffering is exact," Philip Larkin wrote,
> but the vocabulary of consolation is loaded with abstraction and clich?, as
> anyone who has tried to write a sympathy note in the past week knows.
> Naturally, there's a certain comfort in pillowy, familiar phrases?"This too
> shall pass," "Our hearts are with you"?but living through a day like Sept.
> 11, and listening to all the subsequent cant from public figures and TV
> personalities, can leave people craving language that's as precise as their
> pain.
> 
> What's striking about "September 1, 1939," which Auden wrote in response to
> Germany's invasion of Poland, is how precisely it matches much of what
> happened last Tuesday, how weirdly prescient it seems. Of course, that's the
> point: Zealotry and violence are cyclical?"The habit-forming pain,/
> Mismanagement and grief:/ We must suffer them all again." But those weren't
> the lines that brought me to my bookshelf last Wednesday, looking for the
> poem. The passages that had been playing through my head since I first saw
> the World Trade Center footage were more concrete and actually seemed more
> specific to the past week than to the poem's occasion. "Where blind
> skyscrapers use/ Their full height to proclaim/ The strength of Collective
> Man," and "Into the ethical life/ The dense commuters come." The poem, which
> is set in Manhattan, opens with the "unmentionable odour of death/
> Offend[ing] the September night," something it could have done only
> figuratively in 1939, and the poem closes with a candlelight vigil: "May I
> [...]/ Beleaguered by the same/ Negation and despair,/ Show an affirming
> flame." Even when Auden is writing explicitly about Hitler, his language
> could hardly be altered to better fit the hijackers. Borrowing terms from
> Jungian psychoanalysis, he wonders "What huge imago made/ A psychopathic
> god." My Muslim friends, whose god is unrecognizable in the murderous
> theology of Osama Bin Laden, have spent the past week wondering the same
> thing. Ezra Pound defined poetry as "news that stays news," but even he may
> not have had this degree of fidelity in mind.
> 
> Coincidences aside, "September 1, 1939" stays news because it reveals a
> little more of itself with each reading. Last Wednesday, it gave me some of
> the emotional nourishment I had been needing, in the form of concise
> explanations ("Those to whom evil is done/ Do evil in return") and bold
> pronouncements ("There is no such thing as the State/ And no one exists
> alone [...]/ We must love one another or die"). By Thursday, though, it had
> unsettled me again. Those phrases, despite their rhetorical poise, are
> undermined by Auden's ambivalence and self-contradiction. Auden seems to
> doubt whether universal love can obtain in a world where "the error bred in
> the bone/ Of each woman and each man/ Craves what it cannot have,/ Not
> universal love/ But to be loved alone." And his poem is, as the critic John
> Fuller points out, "a parade of rhetoric designed to question the function
> of rhetoric."
> 
> A poem, of course, that offered only unambiguous answers to these sorts of
> questions would neither be news nor stay news. Poetry does justice to life
> by describing it, not by reducing it to more reasonable dimensions. So all
> of Auden's doubts and doublings-back only improve the poem?as far as John
> Fuller and I are concerned, anyway. Auden, apparently, decided that its
> ambiguities couldn't be reconciled with its declamatory tone. Rereading it
> shortly after its publication, he arrived at the line "We must love one
> another or die" and "said to myself: 'That's a damned lie! We must die
> anyway.' So, in the next edition, I altered it to 'We must love one another
> and die.' This didn't seem to do either, so I cut the stanza. Still no good.
> The whole poem, I realized, was infected with an incurable dishonesty?and
> must be scrapped."
> 
> He banished it from subsequent editions of his work, and I'm not sure,
> frankly, how it finally found its way back into print. I'm thankful it did.
> Its thematic ambiguity only strengthens the sense that it is the poem for
> our present pain. When Auden called it "trash which [he was] ashamed to have
> written," as Edward Mendelson observes, he was taking the poem "far more
> seriously?and taking poetic language far more seriously?than his critics
> ever did." By expressing such disappointment in a poem so great, by
> attaching such a profound sense of failure to it, Auden kept in play the
> possibility?by no means a certainty?that there are sorrows even the most
> well-chosen words can't reach.
> 
> 
> Join The Fray What did you think of this article?
> 
> POST A MESSAGE
> READ MESSAGES    
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ===================
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> ===================
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
Thanks for the article, David.  Two nights ago, on CNN, Jeff Greenfield
closed his commentary by reading the opening and closing stanzas of
"September 1, 1939, after saying his daughter had sent him the poem, which
had been circulating on the inter-net.

Paul Lake




From robin.hamilton2  Fri Sep 21 15:45:38 2001
From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 20:45:38 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Auden etc.
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDF0D@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <01c601c142d6$92c800a0$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3>

I think I'm going barking mad on this, as "September 1939" seems to be
cropping up on every list ...

But why is no one quoting Yeats' "September 1916", which is where Auden
pulled his poem from?

Why does no one mention "Spain", with the line, 'the necessary murder'?

Are we all brain-dead?

pain and sorrow ...

Robin Hamilton

----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham, David" <GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU>
To: "'New-Poetry'" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Friday, September 21, 2001 7:48 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Auden etc.


Another forward from that other list.  From Slate, originally:


culturebox

Auden on Bin Laden
By Eric McHenry

Thursday, Sept. 20, 2001, at 12:30 p.m. PT




Last Wednesday I e-mailed W.H. Auden's poem " September 1, 1939" to members
of my family. Two days later a friend e-mailed it to me, having received it
from another friend who was circulating it. On Saturday my mother told me
that Scott Simon had read portions of it on NPR. And on Monday my wife, a
prep school teacher, saw it lying on the faculty photocopy machine.

Tragedy sends people to poetry. "Suffering is exact," Philip Larkin wrote,
but the vocabulary of consolation is loaded with abstraction and clich?, as
anyone who has tried to write a sympathy note in the past week knows.
Naturally, there's a certain comfort in pillowy, familiar phrases?"This too
shall pass," "Our hearts are with you"?but living through a day like Sept.
11, and listening to all the subsequent cant from public figures and TV
personalities, can leave people craving language that's as precise as their
pain.

What's striking about "September 1, 1939," which Auden wrote in response to
Germany's invasion of Poland, is how precisely it matches much of what
happened last Tuesday, how weirdly prescient it seems. Of course, that's the
point: Zealotry and violence are cyclical?"The habit-forming pain,/
Mismanagement and grief:/ We must suffer them all again." But those weren't
the lines that brought me to my bookshelf last Wednesday, looking for the
poem. The passages that had been playing through my head since I first saw
the World Trade Center footage were more concrete and actually seemed more
specific to the past week than to the poem's occasion. "Where blind
skyscrapers use/ Their full height to proclaim/ The strength of Collective
Man," and "Into the ethical life/ The dense commuters come." The poem, which
is set in Manhattan, opens with the "unmentionable odour of death/
Offend[ing] the September night," something it could have done only
figuratively in 1939, and the poem closes with a candlelight vigil: "May I
[...]/ Beleaguered by the same/ Negation and despair,/ Show an affirming
flame." Even when Auden is writing explicitly about Hitler, his language
could hardly be altered to better fit the hijackers. Borrowing terms from
Jungian psychoanalysis, he wonders "What huge imago made/ A psychopathic
god." My Muslim friends, whose god is unrecognizable in the murderous
theology of Osama Bin Laden, have spent the past week wondering the same
thing. Ezra Pound defined poetry as "news that stays news," but even he may
not have had this degree of fidelity in mind.

Coincidences aside, "September 1, 1939" stays news because it reveals a
little more of itself with each reading. Last Wednesday, it gave me some of
the emotional nourishment I had been needing, in the form of concise
explanations ("Those to whom evil is done/ Do evil in return") and bold
pronouncements ("There is no such thing as the State/ And no one exists
alone [...]/ We must love one another or die"). By Thursday, though, it had
unsettled me again. Those phrases, despite their rhetorical poise, are
undermined by Auden's ambivalence and self-contradiction. Auden seems to
doubt whether universal love can obtain in a world where "the error bred in
the bone/ Of each woman and each man/ Craves what it cannot have,/ Not
universal love/ But to be loved alone." And his poem is, as the critic John
Fuller points out, "a parade of rhetoric designed to question the function
of rhetoric."

A poem, of course, that offered only unambiguous answers to these sorts of
questions would neither be news nor stay news. Poetry does justice to life
by describing it, not by reducing it to more reasonable dimensions. So all
of Auden's doubts and doublings-back only improve the poem?as far as John
Fuller and I are concerned, anyway. Auden, apparently, decided that its
ambiguities couldn't be reconciled with its declamatory tone. Rereading it
shortly after its publication, he arrived at the line "We must love one
another or die" and "said to myself: 'That's a damned lie! We must die
anyway.' So, in the next edition, I altered it to 'We must love one another
and die.' This didn't seem to do either, so I cut the stanza. Still no good.
The whole poem, I realized, was infected with an incurable dishonesty?and
must be scrapped."

He banished it from subsequent editions of his work, and I'm not sure,
frankly, how it finally found its way back into print. I'm thankful it did.
Its thematic ambiguity only strengthens the sense that it is the poem for
our present pain. When Auden called it "trash which [he was] ashamed to have
written," as Edward Mendelson observes, he was taking the poem "far more
seriously?and taking poetic language far more seriously?than his critics
ever did." By expressing such disappointment in a poem so great, by
attaching such a profound sense of failure to it, Auden kept in play the
possibility?by no means a certainty?that there are sorrows even the most
well-chosen words can't reach.


Join The Fray What did you think of this article?

POST A MESSAGE
READ MESSAGES




===================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
===================
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From moira_russell  Fri Sep 21 16:45:36 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:45:36 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Auden etc.
Message-ID: <F7CAsdGIWIShI1z70MO0000b17c@hotmail.com>

Robin wrote:

>But why is no one quoting Yeats' "September 1916", which is where Auden
>pulled his poem from?

Well, I don't think "September 1913" speaks as much to people right now, as 
it is essentially mourning for lost Romantic Irish revolutionary heroes, but 
here it is anyway.  I would be interested in knowing why you think Auden 
"pulled" his poem from it (no snottiness/sarcasm/etc. intended here;  really 
would be interested).  Auden's poem seems modern, ambiguous, a kind of 
trembling hope pulled from near-despair which at times in the poem is nearly 
indistinguishable from despair.  It speaks to a time when we can't believe 
what has happened and don't know what is going to happen in the future and 
know that we must endure somehow but can't really imagine how.  Yeats' poem 
seems more like a political reproach to a "praying, saving" nation which 
doesn't recognize the enormous sacrifice paid by its political heroes.  I 
would say that the difference between Yeats' refrain "Romantic Ireland's 
dead and gone" and Auden's characterization of the state as a "lie" is the 
difference between the two poems for me.  They are both political poems, but 
the two poets have very different politics.

As for "Spain 1937" and the "necessary murder," if you mean to criticise 
Auden, it is certainly a terrible sentiment, but Auden removed it from the 
poem after Orwell's withering criticism:

"But notice the phrase 'necessary murder.' It could only be written by a 
person to whom murder is at most a word. Personally I would not speak so 
lightly of murder .... The Hitlers and the Stalins find murder necessary, 
but they don't advertise their callousness, and they don't speak of it as 
murder; it is 'liquidation,' 'elimination' or some other soothing phrase. 
Mr. Auden's brand of amoralism is only possible if you are the kind of 
person who is always somewhere else when the trigger is pulled."

Auden revised the poem in 1939 and refused to let it be anthologized at all 
after the 1950s.

"September 1913"

     What need you, being come to sense,
     But fumble in a greasy till
     And add the halfpence to the pence
     And prayer to shivering prayer, until
     You have dried the marrow from the bone;
     For men were born to pray and save:
     Romantic Ireland's dead and gone,
     It's with O'Leary in the grave.
     Yet they were of a different kind
     The names that stilled your childish play,
     They have gone about the world like wind,
     But little time had they to pray
     For whom the hangman's rope was spun,
     And what, God help us, could they save:
     Romantic Ireland's dead and gone,
     It's with O'Leary in the grave.

     Was it for this the wild geese spread
     The grey wing upon every tide;
     For this that all that blood was shed,
     For this Edward Fitzgerald died,
     And Robert Emmet and Wolfe Tone,
     All that delirium of the brave;
     Romantic Ireland's dead and gone,
     It's with O'Leary in the grave.

     Yet could we turn the years again,
     And call those exiles as they were,
     In all their loneliness and pain
     You'd cry 'Some woman's yellow hair
     Has maddened every mother's son':
     They weighed so lightly what they gave,
     But let them be, they're dead and gone,
     They're with O'Leary in the grave.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA


_________________________________________________________________
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From BobGrumman  Fri Sep 21 16:50:36 2001
From: BobGrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 16:50:36 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Karl Shapiro's Address
References: <F337ujn9eWfXTg29snD0000728c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3BABA81C.5722@nut-n-but.net>

A friend of mine who is interested in Karl Shapiro wants to
contact him.  Does anyone know his present address (or how he's
doing)?

                                               thanks, Bob G.




From moira_russell  Fri Sep 21 16:59:49 2001
From: moira_russell (Moira Russell)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 12:59:49 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] More Auden
Message-ID: <F6Ym7Ar2pYEGWa102Kz0000af15@hotmail.com>


    She looked over his shoulder
       For vines and olive trees,
     Marble well-governed cities
       And ships upon untamed seas,
     But there on the shining metal
       His hands had put instead
     An artificial wilderness
       And a sky like lead.

A plain without a feature, bare and brown,
   No blade of grass, no sign of neighborhood,
Nothing to eat and nowhere to sit down,
   Yet, congregated on its blankness, stood
   An unintelligible multitude,
A million eyes, a million boots in line,
Without expression, waiting for a sign.

Out of the air a voice without a face
   Proved by statistics that some cause was just
In tones as dry and level as the place:
   No one was cheered and nothing was discussed;
   Column by column in a cloud of dust
They marched away enduring a belief
Whose logic brought them, somewhere else, to grief.

     She looked over his shoulder
       For ritual pieties,
     White flower-garlanded heifers,
       Libation and sacrifice,
     But there on the shining metal
       Where the altar should have been,
     She saw by his flickering forge-light
       Quite another scene.

Barbed wire enclosed an arbitrary spot
   Where bored officials lounged (one cracked a joke)
And sentries sweated for the day was hot:
   A crowd of ordinary decent folk
   Watched from without and neither moved nor spoke
As three pale figures were led forth and bound
To three posts driven upright in the ground.

The mass and majesty of this world, all
   That carries weight and always weighs the same
Lay in the hands of others; they were small
   And could not hope for help and no help came:
   What their foes like to do was done, their shame
Was all the worst could wish; they lost their pride
And died as men before their bodies died.

     She looked over his shoulder
       For athletes at their games,
     Men and women in a dance
       Moving their sweet limbs
     Quick, quick, to music,
       But there on the shining shield
     His hands had set no dancing-floor
       But a weed-choked field.

A ragged urchin, aimless and alone,
   Loitered about that vacancy; a bird
Flew up to safety from his well-aimed stone:
   That girls are raped, that two boys knife a third,
   Were axioms to him, who'd never heard
Of any world where promises were kept,
Or one could weep because another wept.

     The thin-lipped armorer,
       Hephaestos, hobbled away,
     Thetis of the shining breasts
       Cried out in dismay
     At what the god had wrought
       To please her son, the strong
     Iron-hearted man-slaying Achilles
       Who would not live long.

_________________________________________________________________
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From Thom424  Fri Sep 21 17:05:27 2001
From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 17:05:27 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Karl Shapiro's Address
Message-ID: <d5.c468a18.28dd0598@aol.com>

Karl Shapiro died in 2000.  Go to:   <http://www.unl.edu/schooner/html/shapiro.html>




From BobGrumman  Fri Sep 21 18:26:39 2001
From: BobGrumman (Bob Grumman)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 18:26:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Karl Shapiro's Address
References: <d5.c468a18.28dd0598@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3BABBE9F.3BD1@nut-n-but.net>

Thom424 at aol.com wrote:

> Karl Shapiro died in 2000.

Ah, so.  Sorry to hear about that (and now remember hearing about
that at the time--here, in fact).  Thanks.  --Bob G.




From Rsgwynn1  Fri Sep 21 19:05:30 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 19:05:30 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Submissions for Anthology of Comic Poetry
Message-ID: <154.15c9179.28dd21ba@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/21/2001 1:07:04 PM Central Daylight Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes:


> I am putting together an anthology of comic poetry by contemporary women
> and am seeking submissions via snailmail. Include SASE, bio, and cover
> letter, please. Send to Gabriel Gudding, 318-B North 16th St., Oxford MS
> 38655-3712.
> 
> Questions?: please backchannel
> gudding at olemiss.edu
> gwg6 at cornell.edu
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Gabe
> 

You should try to contact Gail White, who has published quite a bit in Light 
magazine.  Maybe someone on the list (Kathrine Varnes?) has her address.

If you're including Brits, you must look at Wendy Cope's work.
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From Rsgwynn1  Fri Sep 21 19:12:06 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 19:12:06 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Auden etc.
Message-ID: <6c.10552c7b.28dd2346@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/21/2001 1:49:58 PM Central Daylight Time, 
GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU writes:


> 
> Join The Fray What did you think of this article?
> 
> 

I don't think the poem is wholly successful, but I'm sorry he did delete it 
from his collected works.  I had to look around quite a bit the other day 
before I found it (in the old M. L. Rosenthal anthology).  I don't think it's 
anymore bogus that "Easter 1916," which is its obvious model.  I do think, 
though, that a couple of stanzas in the middle of it (the one about Nijinsky) 
could be cut with small loss.  I've always suspected that Auden was hurt by 
the criticism that he and Isherwood had abandoned England in its hour of need 
and that he felt that his trying to be a spokesman for Great Britain was 
presumptuous in light of his emigration.  I did read an interesting article 
on it in the last year or so--was it in The New Yorker?  
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From duemer  Fri Sep 21 19:05:37 2001
From: duemer (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 19:05:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gioia in the morning . . .
References: <7c.1bd0a7dc.28da6c1d@aol.com>
Message-ID: <007d01c142f1$ef9ed540$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

<<Care to share? --Terry Ponick>>

I've bashed Gioia on other lists & don't really have the energy to take up
the cudgel again. What I most resent about DG is that he has appropriated
metrical verse (not to mention the definition of "form" & "formal") for his
little movement & reduced it to lowest common denominators.

jd

======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
======================








From Rsgwynn1  Fri Sep 21 19:20:14 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 19:20:14 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Karl Shapiro's Address
Message-ID: <13d.1d081b7.28dd252e@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/21/2001 3:52:19 PM Central Daylight Time, 
BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:


> A friend of mine who is interested in Karl Shapiro wants to
> contact him.  Does anyone know his present address (or how he's
> doing)?
> 
>                                                thanks, Bob G.
> 

If I'm not mistaken, Shapiro died last year.
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From Rsgwynn1  Fri Sep 21 19:27:38 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 19:27:38 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gioia in the morning . . .
Message-ID: <10e.5766e39.28dd26ea@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/21/2001 6:15:23 PM Central Daylight Time, 
duemer at clarkson.edu writes:


> What I most resent about DG is that he has appropriated
> metrical verse (not to mention the definition of "form" & "formal") for his
> little movement & reduced it to lowest common denominators.
> 
> jd
> 

As one of those lower common denominators, I must (once again) stand bemused 
before Professor Duemer's rhetorical strategies.   
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From duemer  Fri Sep 21 20:03:19 2001
From: duemer (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 20:03:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gioia in the morning . . .
References: <10e.5766e39.28dd26ea@cs.com>
Message-ID: <02a001c142fa$01646b20$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

  Sam Gwynn writes (quoting me):

  What I most resent about DG is that he has appropriated 
  metrical verse (not to mention the definition of "form" & "formal") for his 
  little movement & reduced it to lowest common denominators. 


  As one of those lower common denominators, I must (once again) stand bemused before Professor Duemer's rhetorical strategies.  
If referring to me as "Professor" is supposed to be a rhetorical gesture of derision, then perhaps "lowest common denominator" is apt; but, Professor Gwynn, I think you have misread the pronoun reference in my sentence. "It" refers not to you or any other person, but to the [practice of] "metrical verse" & parenthetically to "form" & "formal." It is true that I dislike movements & even more than movements I dislike clubs, which is what the New Metricalism seems like to me; but if the work that had been produced by this little club showed any snap or dazzle or even moderate engagement with any but a suburban reality I might still be able to take it seriously. For me, the nadir was reached by DG's poem about standing on the porch at someone's wedding, but even that was exceeded by Chas. Martin's poem called something like "On Leaving the Writers' Colony." If there was ever a poem that needed a high colonic that would be my pick. Anyhow, Professor, I somehow have just never gotten around to your work, as I suspect you have never gotten around to mine. 

jd

======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750 
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
====================== 




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From MerwinDame  Fri Sep 21 20:15:03 2001
From: MerwinDame (MerwinDame at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 20:15:03 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] frederick a. raborg, jr./amelia magazine
Message-ID: <13e.1c691ee.28dd3207@aol.com>

gosh...i am just so stunned and saddened right now. this morning i wrote an 
email to fred raborg  -- editor of "amelia" literary journal -- requesting 
some information on two poems of mine he published a few years go, and i just 
received the following reply: 

<< Amelia, Cicada and SPSM&H regret to announce that they have discontinued 
publication due to the death on August 13, 2001, of editor/publisher 
Frederick A. Raborg, Jr. ?Because of Mr. Raborg's prolonged illness, 
correspondence is several months behind and will be answered as quickly as 
possible. ??I don't have a master list of contributors, but I will check the 
last few issues for you. ?Please be patient.
Eileen Raborg  >>

i had NO IDEA. 

for those of you familiar with fred and his work, his unique literary vision, 
and his great openess, generosity, and grace with newly emerging writers, you 
must certainly know what a great loss this is to the literary community -- 
there TRULY was only ONE fred raborg.   :)

for those of you not familiar with him who wish to know more, here is the 
link to an interview that gives a pretty accurate representation of who he 
was and how he operated: 


http://collection.nlc-bnc.ca/100/202/300/charlotte/2000/06-25/pages/interviews

/publishers/ameliamag.htm

for a small clue, fred was a man who published one of the finest lit journals 
in existence...out of freakin' BAKERSFIELD, CALIFORNIA...LOL   ;)   and, if i 
am not mistaken, i believe he even got the name for it -- amelia -- from a 
cow. 

both amelia...and he...will be sorely missed. 


muffy bolding

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From Jandhodge  Fri Sep 21 20:52:49 2001
From: Jandhodge (Jandhodge at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 20:52:49 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Auden, Yeats, etc.
Message-ID: <54.1b3adaf0.28dd3ae1@aol.com>

In a message dated 01-09-21 16:50:28 EDT, you write:


Robin wrote:
 
 >But why is no one quoting Yeats' "September 1916", which is where Auden
 >pulled his poem from?

Moira responded:
 
> Well, I don't think "September 1913" speaks as much to people right now, as 
> it is essentially mourning for lost Romantic Irish revolutionary heroes, 
but 
> here it is anyway.  I would be interested in knowing why you think Auden 
> "pulled" his poem from it  >>

I second Moira's question, but Robin's post raises another question I've 
wanted to ask:  with the great outpouring of poems old and new in response to 
the recent horror, why has no one mentioned Yeats's "The Second Coming," much 
of which seems also painfully relevant?  (Or perhaps someone did and I missed 
it?)  Of course you all know the poem, but the first section at least bears 
quoting again in this context:

      Turning and turning in a widening gyre
      The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
      Things fall apart; the center cannot hold;
      Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
      The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
      The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
      The best lack all conviction, while the worst
      Are full of passionate intensity.

Jan





From MillB  Fri Sep 21 20:52:45 2001
From: MillB (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 20:52:45 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Karl Shapiro's Address
Message-ID: <109.608359a.28dd3add@aol.com>

Karl Shapiro: 1913-2000 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

Karl Shapiro assumed the editorship of Prairie Schooner in late 1956, 
succeeding founder Lowry Wimberly. Shapiro's credentials were impressive. 
He'd been awarded the Pulitzer and Bollingen prizes, had served as Poetry 
Consultant at the Library of Congress, and had edited Poetry Magazine. He was 
the most highly celebrated poet ever to be a member of the faculty of any 
university on the western plains, and he continues to hold that distinction 
nearly fifty years later.

In the first issue he edited he wrote, "Almost everything worth saying has 
been said about the ?little magazine.' It is a deficit publication with a 
circulation too small to explain its existence; what it prints has no public 
appeal, although most of the finest modern authors have been brought to light 
by this unique medium of publication."

During the next six years he was to solicit and publish work by many of the 
twentieth century's literary giants: Kay Boyle, Edward Dahlberg, Richard 
Eberhart, Leslie Fiedler, Isabella Gardner, Josephine Jacobsen, Randall 
Jarrell, Hugh Kenner, Josephine Miles, John F. Nims, Octavio Paz, and William 
Carlos Williams. He reinstated book reviews, changed the look of the 
magazine, and wrote an annual critical chronicle of new volumes of verse. The 
two dozen issues of those years maintain their energy and vitality. The last 
issue he was to prepare was introduced by Randall Jarrell's "Fifty Years of 
American Poetry," an important essay by a master of criticism.

He withdrew his name from the masthead for the Spring 1963 issue when 
university administrators blocked publication of a short story he had 
accepted. The story, which explicitly described two heterosexual love scenes, 
was said to be "obscene and in poor taste." Shapiro called the censorship a 
"provincial atrocity" and declared that no self-respecting author would 
submit to a magazine in the hands of censors. Having failed to turn the minds 
of the authorities, he resigned as editor. He continued to teach at the 
University of Nebraska for the next three years, and then accepted a position 
at the University of Chicago.

Though he did not succeed against his censors, he succeeded as an editor. He 
nudged Prairie Schooner from its position as a regional journal and 
transformed it into a national literary phenomenon that readers all across 
the country began to follow with interest and excitement. We go forward 
guided by his brilliance and integrity. 



From Rsgwynn1  Fri Sep 21 21:04:53 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 21:04:53 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gioia in the morning . . .
Message-ID: <c8.1aeef09b.28dd3db5@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/21/2001 7:13:52 PM Central Daylight Time, 
duemer at clarkson.edu writes:


> Anyhow, Professor, I somehow have just never gotten around to your work, as 
> I suspect you have never gotten around to mine. 
>  
> jd
> 

Well, I  actually have read the one about how you've improved your prowess 
with women since you turned forty.  I shall send you a book full of some of 
my suburban realities, Professor Duemer.  And perhaps you will reciprocate.

Professor Gwynn
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From gmcvay  Fri Sep 21 21:35:03 2001
From: gmcvay (Gwyn McVay)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 21:35:03 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Calling Dr. Howard, Dr. Fine, Dr. Howard
References: <c8.1aeef09b.28dd3db5@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3BABEAB3.7459F049@patriot.net>

Dear Professor Gwynn and Professor Duemer,

Look, you two, if you-all are going to go around calling each other
Professor this and that, then I too wish to be addressed according to my
academic status. Since the highest degree hitherto conferred upon my
hairy little head has been the MFA, I respectfully request to be called
"Master." (Not "Mistress." Doug McVay's wife must be above the price of
Portia, the reproach of rubies.)

Seriously, don't you both think the continual
rhetoric-jacking-up-a-notch is not only a cartoon version of the
warmongering around us, but unbecoming to both of you as poets,
anthologists, editors, teachers, community members, et alia?

Sincerely, your Master (Aside: Isn't it lovely how, as the year
approaches Halloween, you can buy whips and latex outfits in stores
without a second glance from the salesperson?)



From duemer  Fri Sep 21 21:15:50 2001
From: duemer (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 21:15:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gioia in the morning . . .
References: <c8.1aeef09b.28dd3db5@cs.com>
Message-ID: <02dd01c14304$1e4bd160$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

Dear Professor Gwynn,
that damn poem is the one everybody knows, but it isn't in any of my books. I've a new one coming out, full of formless political ravings & I will send it along in February.

yours in academic decadence,
Professor Duemer
======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750 
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
====================== 




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From duemer  Fri Sep 21 21:16:36 2001
From: duemer (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 21:16:36 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gioia in the morning . . .
References: <c8.1aeef09b.28dd3db5@cs.com>
Message-ID: <02e401c14304$396f2500$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

 . . . besides, I'm fifty now.

jd
======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750 
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
====================== 




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From MillB  Fri Sep 21 21:27:01 2001
From: MillB (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 21:27:01 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Calling Dr. Howard, Dr. Fine, Dr. Howard
Message-ID: <64.13851038.28dd42e5@aol.com>

Calling. . .all advanced degrees. . .

I live in Los Angeles Calif. . .actually Venice Beach. . .where dressage 
whips, orifice clamps and latex are available without a lifted pierced 
eyebrow year round, not just Halloween. . .

LOL

Mill



From Rsgwynn1  Fri Sep 21 21:35:31 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 21:35:31 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Calling Dr. Howard, Dr. Fine, Dr. Howard
Message-ID: <77.1b7140f1.28dd44e3@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/21/2001 8:21:25 PM Central Daylight Time, 
gmcvay at patriot.net writes:


> Dear Professor Gwynn and Professor Duemer,
> 
> Look, you two, if you-all are going to go around calling each other
> Professor this and that, then I too wish to be addressed according to my
> academic status. Since the highest degree hitherto conferred upon my
> hairy little head has been the MFA, I respectfully request to be called
> "Master." (Not "Mistress." Doug McVay's wife must be above the price of
> Portia, the reproach of rubies.)
> 
> Seriously, don't you both think the continual
> rhetoric-jacking-up-a-notch is not only a cartoon version of the
> warmongering around us, but unbecoming to both of you as poets,
> anthologists, editors, teachers, community members, et alia?
> 
> Sincerely, your Master (Aside: Isn't it lovely how, as the year
> approaches Halloween, you can buy whips and latex outfits in stores
> without a second glance from the salesperson?)
> _______________________________________________
> 

Master McVay:

You are correct.  Such rudeness hardly becomes the holiday season.  I shall 
henceforth communicate with Associate Professor Duemer by snailmail (my 
book's in the snailmail).

I stand corrected.

Mistress Nell Gwynn
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From Rsgwynn1  Fri Sep 21 21:36:29 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 21:36:29 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gioia in the morning . . .
Message-ID: <d.1a99def1.28dd451d@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/21/2001 8:26:24 PM Central Daylight Time, 
duemer at clarkson.edu writes:


> 
>  . . . besides, I'm fifty now.
>  
> jd
> 

Me too, and I still haven't figured out how.
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From Rsgwynn1  Fri Sep 21 21:37:15 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 21:37:15 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Gioia in the morning . . .
Message-ID: <b0.1ab03b71.28dd454b@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/21/2001 8:25:32 PM Central Daylight Time, 
duemer at clarkson.edu writes:


> that damn poem is the one everybody knows, but it isn't in any of my books. 
> I've a new one coming out, full of formless political ravings & I will send 
> it along in February.
> 

Pronoun reference?  You have a new book coming out or a new poem?
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From Rsgwynn1  Fri Sep 21 21:38:24 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 21:38:24 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Calling Dr. Howard, Dr. Fine, Dr. Howard
Message-ID: <10c.5dcadf1.28dd4590@cs.com>

In a message dated 9/21/2001 8:28:23 PM Central Daylight Time, MillB at aol.com 
writes:


> Calling. . .all advanced degrees. . .
> 
> I live in Los Angeles Calif. . .actually Venice Beach. . .where dressage 
> whips, orifice clamps and latex are available without a lifted pierced 
> eyebrow year round, not just Halloween. . .
> 
> LOL
> 
> Mill
> 

Should we call you "prophessor" then?
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