From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Oct  1 06:06:16 2001
From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 06:06:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hass's Best
References: <200110010324.f913Ooj75910@mx10.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <3BB84018.6B26@nut-n-but.net>

> Here's a snippet, beginning with a passage from Hass's intro:
> 
> ____________________________
> "There are roughly three traditions in American poetry at this point: a
> metrical tradition that can be very nervy and that is also basically
> classical in impulse; a strong central tradition of free verse made out of
> both romanticism and modernism, split between the impulses of an inward and
> psychological writing and an outward and realist one, at its best fusing the
> two; and an experimental tradition that is usually more passionate about
> form than content, perception than emotion, restless with the conventions of
> the art, skeptical about the political underpinnings of current practice,
> and intent on inventing a new one, or at least undermining what seems
> repressive in the current formed style. . . . At the moment there are poets
> doing good, bad, and indifferent work in all these ranges."
> 
> Although one may wish that Hass named some names here, it's hard to > imagine a more judicious account of major tendencies.

Or more empty (mainly because while most of us know all about the first
two "tendencies" Hass mentions, he covers a probable near-total
ignorance of his third, "experimental poetry," which many could profit
from intelligent discussion of, with near-meaningless generalities).

                                                  --Bob G.



From mackechnie at email.msn.com  Mon Oct  1 07:42:53 2001
From: mackechnie at email.msn.com (Russ MacKechnie)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 07:42:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hass's Best
In-Reply-To: <3BB84018.6B26@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <LNBBLKJNOGEECDCCBGHNAEEMCOAA.mackechnie@email.msn.com>

Bob Grumman writes:

> Or more empty (mainly because while most of us know all about
> the first
> two "tendencies" Hass mentions, he covers a probable near-total
> ignorance of his third, "experimental poetry," which many could profit
> from intelligent discussion of, with near-meaningless generalities).

	Bob, is this "experimental" prose?

                             Russ



From wasanthony at yahoo.com  Mon Oct  1 11:37:41 2001
From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 08:37:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hass's Best
In-Reply-To: <200110010324.f913Ooj75910@mx10.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <20011001153741.296.qmail@web12106.mail.yahoo.com>

Yes, I've been reading in it, though through the lens of post 9/11, a
view which does admit self-indulgence or craft for craft's sake; the
poems must matter and I'm really not interested in discussing the
anthology in terms of categories, which does not matter.  More later.

- Jim

--- David Graham <grahamd at mail.ripon.edu> wrote:
> Time for our annual hunting season on the Best American Poetry
> volume.  This
> year it's Robert Hass in our gunsights.  Anyone looked at it yet?
> 
> A review in the Chicago Tribune by Maureen McLane
>
(http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/books/chi-0109220006sep23.story?coll
> =chi%2Dleisurebooks%2Dhed) makes me want to go hunt it up, actually.
> 
> Here's a snippet, beginning with a passage from Hass's intro:
> 
> ____________________________
> "There are roughly three traditions in American poetry at this point:
> a
> metrical tradition that can be very nervy and that is also basically
> classical in impulse; a strong central tradition of free verse made
> out of
> both romanticism and modernism, split between the impulses of an
> inward and
> psychological writing and an outward and realist one, at its best
> fusing the
> two; and an experimental tradition that is usually more passionate
> about
> form than content, perception than emotion, restless with the
> conventions of
> the art, skeptical about the political underpinnings of current
> practice,
> and intent on inventing a new one, or at least undermining what seems
> repressive in the current formed style. . . . At the moment there are
> poets
> doing good, bad, and indifferent work in all these ranges."
> 
> Although one may wish that Hass named some names here, it's hard to
> imagine
> a more judicious account of major tendencies.
> 
> Those familiar with Hass' own acclaimed and influential books of
> poetry
> (including "Field Work, Praise" and the most recent, "Sun Under
> Wood") may
> not be surprised that he takes time to clarify the "strong central
> tradition
> of free verse" out of and into which his own poetry largely flows.
> Yet there
> is a restlessness in Hass as an editor, as there often is in his
> poetry,
> which has developed intriguingly from book to book (one might wish to
> ponder, for example, the gorgeous, melancholy and sensual prose poems
> that
> form the middle section of Hass' third book, "Human Wishes").
> 
> Hass opens up for readers the space for an attentive pluralism: If
> we're
> used to a certain kind of thing as a poem, perhaps we'll discover in
> this
> anthology some other excellent, startling things, also poems, we'd
> never
> have encountered in, say, Poetry magazine (a current flagship of
> Traditions
> 1 and 2, formerly friendly to Tradition 3, for example, modernist
> experimentalists like Ezra Pound and Hilda Doolittle). Or if we're
> keen on
> innovative work in little magazines such as Another Chicago Magazine,
> the
> journal Fence (based in New York) or Chain (based in Philadelphia),
> perhaps
> we'll find room in our hearts for the exquisitely chiseled
> melancholia of
> Anthony Hecht's "Sarabande on Attaining the Age of Seventy-Seven," or
> the
> lyrical erudition of John Hollander's "What the Lovers in the Old
> Songs
> Thought."
> ____________________________
> 
> I do love that phrase "attentive pluralism."
> 
> David Graham
> 
> 
> _______________________
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> _______________________
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
"Ripples" @ <http://www.poetserv.net>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
http://phone.yahoo.com


From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Oct  1 15:06:53 2001
From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 15:06:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hass's Best
References: <LNBBLKJNOGEECDCCBGHNAEEMCOAA.mackechnie@email.msn.com>
Message-ID: <3BB8BECC.16FA@nut-n-but.net>

Russ MacKechnie wrote:
> 
> Bob Grumman writes:
> 
> > Or more empty (mainly because while most of us know all about
> > the first
> > two "tendencies" Hass mentions, he covers a probable near-total
> > ignorance of his third, "experimental poetry," which many could profit
> > from intelligent discussion of, with near-meaningless generalities).
> 
>         Bob, is this "experimental" prose?
> 
>                              Russ

No, Russ, it's just minor common sense awkwardly-expressed in a
insufficiently painstaking effort to achieve the impossible: come 
down to your level.

                                                --Bob G.



From GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU  Mon Oct  1 15:20:41 2001
From: GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU (Graham, David)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 14:20:41 -0500 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins on Silence
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDF48@mail.ripon.edu>

Shadow
-- Billy Collins

The sun finally goes down like the end
of the Russian novel, and the blinding darkness
over the continent makes me realize

how tired I am of reading and writing,
tired of watching all the dull, horse-drawn sentences
as they plough through fields of paper,

tired of being dragged on a leash of words
by an author I can never look up and see,
tired of examining the exposed spines of books,

I want to be far from the shores of language,
a boat without passengers, lost at sea,
no correspondence, no thesaurus,

not even a name painted across the bow.
Nothing but silence, the kind that falls
whenever I walk outside with a notebook
and a passing cloud darkens my page.

===================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
===================


From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Oct  1 16:59:08 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 16:59:08 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins on Silence
Message-ID: <23.1234694c.28ea331c@aol.com>

THE POETS AGREE TO BE QUIET BY THE SWAMP

They hold their hands over their mouths
And stare at the stretch of water.
What can be said has been said before:
Strokes of light like herons' legs in the cattails,
Mud underneath, frogs lying even deeper.
Therefore, the poets may keep quiet.
But the corners of their mouths grin past their hands.
They stick their elbows out into the evening,
Stoop, and begin the ancient croaking.

by David Wagoner

"Shadow" made me think of this poem...tho it's humorous 
rather than grave, as Collins is being in his poem. (But doth he
protest too much?) Is what Collins is doing--writing a poem 
expressing a desire to escape from language--akin the "antilogy" 
in rhetoric?
Finnegan


From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Mon Oct  1 10:21:13 2001
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 10:21:13 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Just singin', and versifyin' in the rain
References: <200110010256.f912u6I09719@mx14.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <000401c14ad8$e3c4c740$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

David -- before getting into this at all, let me start by saying that
there's a very blurry line between what's a poem and what's a song, and
there will be a million exceptiions to anything I say. So, come to think of
it, why say anything at all? Anyone see any good movies this weekend?

OK, now that I've tried in vain to escape, I'll put my head on the chopping
block, and suggest a few things just to get the discussion started.

I write both poems and songs, and I'm pretty serious about both -- a song on
John (Orleans) Hall's current album, three songs on Fred Koller's
forthcoming album, which I'll shamelessly plug when it comes out. Here are a
few tentative thoughts about what I do differently.

I think we all know that cliches are more acceptable in songs than in
poems -- even in really good songs. "Night and day, you are the one - only
you beneath the moon and under the sun" ...

As poets, we know the siginificance of allusion, and if we didn't, we have
everyone from John Ciardi to Mary Oliver telling us about it. But it's a
little different for poets and songwriters. As poets, we're in a dialog with
our great forebears, our peers, our culture, but we're very much trying to
create out own space, our unique reason for being there.

As songwriters, we use allusion to create much more communality -- with our
audiences, with the mainstream of song. I hesitate to put myself in the same
train of thought with Cole Porter, but one always knows a little something
about one's own work. My song on the John Hall album is called "Don't Go
There," which is a phrase I probably wouldn't build a poem around, any more
than I would around :"Night and Day." It contains the verse:

First time I saw her she was dressed in black
Lookin' like a gypsy queen
She was standin' by a man with a glass in his hand
She was pourin' him gasoline

I am, Lord knows, not the first person to use that image, but I'm not the
second, either, It's entered the repertory of common imagery, which is a
repertory poetry doesn't have.

Dell Bryant, whose parents were Felice and Boudleaux Bryant (Bye Bye Love,
etc), once told me his father's theory of songwriting. If you use simple,
obvious, whole rhymes, you make your listener a partner in the creative
process.

I'm through with romance, I'm through with love
I'm through with counting...

and the listener can anticipate the next phrase by half a beat. So it's a
communal satisfaction.

Mostly, poems aren't written with the idea that you can sing along with
them.

I know this is inadequate, but it's maybe a start.




  Tad Richards                       "Well said, old mole."
    The Old Mole                         Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet
    of the MoleNet                          Act I, Scene 5
          http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at mail.ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 10:59 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry & Tragedy again


> I'm not at all sure that "poetry by its nature moves us inward, not
outward
> to the public and the collective," Tad, but I'd sure love to hear more
from
> you about what you see as the differences between poetry & songs in this
> regard.
>
> Thinking, just off the top of my head, about many of the poems of Lucille
> Clifton, which seem to me to move outward to public concerns quite
> effectively.  Not sure in what sense her poetry moves a reader differently
> from the way music does.  But maybe I'm just splitting hairs here.
>
> You write "I really don't understand a discussion of which is the
> appropriate response. It depends on how it hits you."  Couldn't agree
more.
>
> David Graham
> _______________________
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> _______________________
>
> ----------
> >From: "theoldmole" <tadrichards at prodigy.net>
> >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Tragedy again
> >Date: Sat, Sep 29, 2001, 2:10 PM
> >
>
> >I tend to agree with Collins that "poetry by its nature moves us inward,
not
> >outward to the public and the collective." It's one of the important
> >differences between poetry and songs, which do reach out to our
collective
> >soul.
> >
> >I think that even poetry which engages public issues does this -- the
zone
> >of silence that Joe talks about.
> >
> >Most of us are minor poets. History will place a mantle over maybe half a
> >dozen of us as the significant voices of our time, and it's history's
> >determination as to who those half a dozen of us will be. Just one wish
will
> >be granted, one heart will wear a valentine....
> >
> >Meanwhile, some will respond to tragedy by writing about it, some
won't --
> >but I really don't understand a discussion of which is the appropriate
> >response. It depends on how it hits you.
> >
> >
> >  Tad Richards                       "Well said, old mole."
> >    The Old Mole                         Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet
> >    of the MoleNet                          Act I, Scene 5
> >          http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Mon Oct  1 15:21:06 2001
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 15:21:06 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Tragedy again
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDF36@mail.ripon.edu> <000201c14a19$93f613a0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> <008a01c14a1d$453e43a0$18724342@twcny.rr.com>
Message-ID: <000a01c14ad8$e5931ea0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

Joe,

We may not all be minor poets. As you say...it's not much of an aim, and
certainly not my aim. Well, we know wht Browning said about a man's reach.
And he was right.

Well, we're inveterate listmakers here. What are the really significant
poems that have been written in response to public tragedies? "Sept 1, 1939"
and "Easter, 1916" have been mentioned. "Oh Captain, My Captain" would be on
the list.

Are songs, with their greater (and I know I haven't really made this case
yet) communality, a better vehicle for response to tragedy? Woody Guthrie's
"Dust Storm Disaster" or "Reuben James"?

I'll give you a wonderful, unjustly forgotten novel that was a response to
tragedy -- Upton Sinclair's "Boston," written virtually in one breath, all
two volumes of it, after the execution of Sacco and Vanzetti.




  Tad Richards                       "Well said, old mole."
    The Old Mole                         Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet
    of the MoleNet                          Act I, Scene 5
          http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Duemer" <duemer at clarkson.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 10:03 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Tragedy again


> David, Tad,
> sorry to drop into this discussion & then drop out. I've been refinishing
> the livingroom floor (I know, How suburban!) & just haven't had time to
> consider a response. So, here:
>
> 1. We're all minor poets. Sure, agreed. But if we don't have major
ambitions
> every time we sit down to write . . . well, we might as well hang it up.
>
> 2. WCW quoting Dewey on the local being universal. I agree with WCW &
Dewey.
> As a matter of fact I've just been reading Dewey's _Experience and
Nature_.
> In the first chapter, Dewey deftly collapses the old mind / body problem &
> all its corollaries. Experience is part of nature. The local leads to the
> universal, but it's the leading that's important. A lot of poetry is
> _merely_ local.
>
> 3. Inward / outward. I think Collins means, on the evidence of his poetry,
> simply the inward. His poems are records of _his_ _local_ experience. He
is
> a minor poet par excellence.
>
> 4. Engaged, public poetry need not be propaganda. Tad, you're right, I
> think, about silence. (Of course I do, since you agree with me!) And the
> greatest "political" poetry takes "politics" personally--that's what
poetry
> does. The fallacy is to imagine that the personal is sufficient.
>
> 5. Responding to tragedy. Silence, probably, is best. Some will be driven
to
> speak. Would that those who are _not_ driven would be silent. It's a
private
> decision, of course, but in general poets should be afraid of poetry &
> should prefer silence to the lyrical desire to express themselves.
>
> 6. Jazz, marginalia, birds at the feeder. Yes, of course, but these all
have
> their place in the public world. Wittgenstein argues that, because
language
> itself is a consensual amalgam of various & competing games played in
social
> space that there can be no such thing as private language. Too many poets
> don't understand this.
>
> 7. & so on in the same vein.
>
> jd
> ======================
> Joseph Duemer
> School of Liberal Arts, 5750
> Clarkson University
> Potsdam NY 13699
> 315.268.3967
> ======================
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com  Mon Oct  1 20:52:56 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 17:52:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Tragedy again
Message-ID: <20011002005257.0B7B52756@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Mon Oct  1 20:58:48 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 20:58:48 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Just singin', and versifyin' in the rain
Message-ID: <30.1b99270b.28ea6b48@cs.com>

In a message dated 10/1/2001 7:35:49 PM Central Daylight Time, 
tadrichards at prodigy.net writes:


> Dell Bryant, whose parents were Felice and Boudleaux Bryant (Bye Bye Love,
> etc), once told me his father's theory of songwriting. If you use simple,
> obvious, whole rhymes, you make your listener a partner in the creative
> process.
> 
> I'm through with romance, I'm through with love
> I'm through with counting...
> 
> and the listener can anticipate the next phrase by half a beat. So it's a
> communal satisfaction.
> 
> 

This is an interesting idea, but it wouldn't wash for a lot of Cole Porter 
("You're the Top") or W. S. Gilbert.  A lot of the time, good rhyme in songs 
sneaks in unexpectedly.
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From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Mon Oct  1 21:15:18 2001
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 21:15:18 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Tragedy again
References: <20011002005257.0B7B52756@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <004a01c14adf$b3e55c40$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

Not by all that much. I've made more money from soft-core porn than either.

  Tad Richards                       "Well said, old mole."
    The Old Mole                         Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet
    of the MoleNet                          Act I, Scene 5
          http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert R.Cobb" <CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 8:52 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Tragedy again


> Tad,
>
> You don't need to answer this rhetorical question. Have you made more
money from song writing than you have from writing poetry?
>
> Bob C.
>
> --- "theoldmole" <tadrichards at prodigy.net>
> > wrote:
> >Joe,
> >
> >We may not all be minor poets. As you say...it's not much of an aim, and
> >certainly not my aim. Well, we know wht Browning said about a man's
reach.
> >And he was right.
> >
> >Well, we're inveterate listmakers here. What are the really significant
> >poems that have been written in response to public tragedies? "Sept 1,
1939"
> >and "Easter, 1916" have been mentioned. "Oh Captain, My Captain" would be
on
> >the list.
> >
> >Are songs, with their greater (and I know I haven't really made this case
> >yet) communality, a better vehicle for response to tragedy? Woody
Guthrie's
> >"Dust Storm Disaster" or "Reuben James"?
> >
> >I'll give you a wonderful, unjustly forgotten novel that was a response
to
> >tragedy -- Upton Sinclair's "Boston," written virtually in one breath,
all
> >two volumes of it, after the execution of Sacco and Vanzetti.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  Tad Richards                       "Well said, old mole."
> >    The Old Mole                         Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet
> >    of the MoleNet                          Act I, Scene 5
> >          http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Joseph Duemer" <duemer at clarkson.edu>
> >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 10:03 PM
> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Tragedy again
> >
> >
> >> David, Tad,
> >> sorry to drop into this discussion & then drop out. I've been
refinishing
> >> the livingroom floor (I know, How suburban!) & just haven't had time to
> >> consider a response. So, here:
> >>
> >> 1. We're all minor poets. Sure, agreed. But if we don't have major
> >ambitions
> >> every time we sit down to write . . . well, we might as well hang it
up.
> >>
> >> 2. WCW quoting Dewey on the local being universal. I agree with WCW &
> >Dewey.
> >> As a matter of fact I've just been reading Dewey's _Experience and
> >Nature_.
> >> In the first chapter, Dewey deftly collapses the old mind / body
problem &
> >> all its corollaries. Experience is part of nature. The local leads to
the
> >> universal, but it's the leading that's important. A lot of poetry is
> >> _merely_ local.
> >>
> >> 3. Inward / outward. I think Collins means, on the evidence of his
poetry,
> >> simply the inward. His poems are records of _his_ _local_ experience.
He
> >is
> >> a minor poet par excellence.
> >>
> >> 4. Engaged, public poetry need not be propaganda. Tad, you're right, I
> >> think, about silence. (Of course I do, since you agree with me!) And
the
> >> greatest "political" poetry takes "politics" personally--that's what
> >poetry
> >> does. The fallacy is to imagine that the personal is sufficient.
> >>
> >> 5. Responding to tragedy. Silence, probably, is best. Some will be
driven
> >to
> >> speak. Would that those who are _not_ driven would be silent. It's a
> >private
> >> decision, of course, but in general poets should be afraid of poetry &
> >> should prefer silence to the lyrical desire to express themselves.
> >>
> >> 6. Jazz, marginalia, birds at the feeder. Yes, of course, but these all
> >have
> >> their place in the public world. Wittgenstein argues that, because
> >language
> >> itself is a consensual amalgam of various & competing games played in
> >social
> >> space that there can be no such thing as private language. Too many
poets
> >> don't understand this.
> >>
> >> 7. & so on in the same vein.
> >>
> >> jd
> >> ======================
> >> Joseph Duemer
> >> School of Liberal Arts, 5750
> >> Clarkson University
> >> Potsdam NY 13699
> >> 315.268.3967
> >> ======================
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New-Poetry mailing list
> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> ==
> Poetry Catamaran
>
> "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known
mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"
>
> Robert R. Cobb
> AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
> http://rrcobb.tripod.com
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Mon Oct  1 21:33:35 2001
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 21:33:35 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Just singin', and versifyin' in the rain
References: <30.1b99270b.28ea6b48@cs.com>
Message-ID: <005701c14ae2$45036800$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

It's a pretty limited idea, and I mention it but don't recommend it in my
songwriting classes. But I tell my students not to ignore it altogether. The
Bryants were pretty damn good songwriters, and it's worth listening to
anyone who does work of their quality.

The classic American songwriters often did a little twist on this -- there's
a clever rhyme coming up, betcha can't guess what it's gonna be. But they
wrote their share of obvious rhymes, too, more likely in the love songs than
the clever songs.

Porter:

Night and day, you are the one
Only you beneath the moon and...

Strange dear, but true dear,
When I'm close....

down by the shore an orchestra's playing
And even the palms seem ...

When love comes in
and takes you ...

Everytime we say goodbye, I die a little,
Everytime we say goodbye, I wonder ...

Even Gilbert:

And that's what we mean when we say that a thing
Is welcome as flowers...


And it is, to some extent, this meat-and-potatoes base that makes the clever
rhymes so much fun.



  Tad Richards                       "Well said, old mole."
    The Old Mole                         Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet
    of the MoleNet                          Act I, Scene 5
          http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
----- Original Message -----
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 8:58 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Just singin', and versifyin' in the rain


In a message dated 10/1/2001 7:35:49 PM Central Daylight Time,
tadrichards at prodigy.net writes:



Dell Bryant, whose parents were Felice and Boudleaux Bryant (Bye Bye Love,
etc), once told me his father's theory of songwriting. If you use simple,
obvious, whole rhymes, you make your listener a partner in the creative
process.

I'm through with romance, I'm through with love
I'm through with counting...

and the listener can anticipate the next phrase by half a beat. So it's a
communal satisfaction.




This is an interesting idea, but it wouldn't wash for a lot of Cole Porter
("You're the Top") or W. S. Gilbert.  A lot of the time, good rhyme in songs
sneaks in unexpectedly.



From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com  Mon Oct  1 21:41:45 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 18:41:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Tragedy again
Message-ID: <20011002014145.C9BDC36F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20011001/07372bd1/attachment.ksh>

From wasanthony at yahoo.com  Mon Oct  1 21:59:38 2001
From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 18:59:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Tragedy again
In-Reply-To: <004a01c14adf$b3e55c40$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20011002015938.51503.qmail@web12101.mail.yahoo.com>

--- theoldmole <tadrichards at prodigy.net> wrote:
> Not by all that much. I've made more money from soft-core porn than
> either.

Phew!  That was so close to "soft core corn," which of course is due to
over-cooking.

- Jim

=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
"Ripples" @ <http://www.poetserv.net>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
http://phone.yahoo.com


From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Mon Oct  1 22:04:06 2001
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 22:04:06 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Tragedy again
References: <20011002014145.C9BDC36F9@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <00a401c14ae6$84ac4360$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

I don't do it any more. But perhaps you've heard of "The Cheerleaders" or
"The Happy Hooker Goes to Washington"...?


  Tad Richards                       "Well said, old mole."
    The Old Mole                         Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet
    of the MoleNet                          Act I, Scene 5
          http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert R.Cobb" <CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 9:41 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Tragedy again


> Tad,
>
> Interesting.  What name do you cash the checks under?
>
> Bob C.
>
> --- "theoldmole" <tadrichards at prodigy.net>
> > wrote:
> >Not by all that much. I've made more money from soft-core porn than
either.
> >
> >  Tad Richards                       "Well said, old mole."
> >    The Old Mole                         Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet
> >    of the MoleNet                          Act I, Scene 5
> >          http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Robert R.Cobb" <CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com>
> >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 8:52 PM
> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Tragedy again
> >
> >
> >> Tad,
> >>
> >> You don't need to answer this rhetorical question. Have you made more
> >money from song writing than you have from writing poetry?
> >>
> >> Bob C.
> >>
> >> --- "theoldmole" <tadrichards at prodigy.net>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >Joe,
> >> >
> >> >We may not all be minor poets. As you say...it's not much of an aim,
and
> >> >certainly not my aim. Well, we know wht Browning said about a man's
> >reach.
> >> >And he was right.
> >> >
> >> >Well, we're inveterate listmakers here. What are the really
significant
> >> >poems that have been written in response to public tragedies? "Sept 1,
> >1939"
> >> >and "Easter, 1916" have been mentioned. "Oh Captain, My Captain" would
be
> >on
> >> >the list.
> >> >
> >> >Are songs, with their greater (and I know I haven't really made this
case
> >> >yet) communality, a better vehicle for response to tragedy? Woody
> >Guthrie's
> >> >"Dust Storm Disaster" or "Reuben James"?
> >> >
> >> >I'll give you a wonderful, unjustly forgotten novel that was a
response
> >to
> >> >tragedy -- Upton Sinclair's "Boston," written virtually in one breath,
> >all
> >> >two volumes of it, after the execution of Sacco and Vanzetti.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >  Tad Richards                       "Well said, old mole."
> >> >    The Old Mole                         Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet
> >> >    of the MoleNet                          Act I, Scene 5
> >> >          http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
> >> >----- Original Message -----
> >> >From: "Joseph Duemer" <duemer at clarkson.edu>
> >> >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >> >Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2001 10:03 PM
> >> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Tragedy again
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> David, Tad,
> >> >> sorry to drop into this discussion & then drop out. I've been
> >refinishing
> >> >> the livingroom floor (I know, How suburban!) & just haven't had time
to
> >> >> consider a response. So, here:
> >> >>
> >> >> 1. We're all minor poets. Sure, agreed. But if we don't have major
> >> >ambitions
> >> >> every time we sit down to write . . . well, we might as well hang it
> >up.
> >> >>
> >> >> 2. WCW quoting Dewey on the local being universal. I agree with WCW
&
> >> >Dewey.
> >> >> As a matter of fact I've just been reading Dewey's _Experience and
> >> >Nature_.
> >> >> In the first chapter, Dewey deftly collapses the old mind / body
> >problem &
> >> >> all its corollaries. Experience is part of nature. The local leads
to
> >the
> >> >> universal, but it's the leading that's important. A lot of poetry is
> >> >> _merely_ local.
> >> >>
> >> >> 3. Inward / outward. I think Collins means, on the evidence of his
> >poetry,
> >> >> simply the inward. His poems are records of _his_ _local_
experience.
> >He
> >> >is
> >> >> a minor poet par excellence.
> >> >>
> >> >> 4. Engaged, public poetry need not be propaganda. Tad, you're right,
I
> >> >> think, about silence. (Of course I do, since you agree with me!) And
> >the
> >> >> greatest "political" poetry takes "politics" personally--that's what
> >> >poetry
> >> >> does. The fallacy is to imagine that the personal is sufficient.
> >> >>
> >> >> 5. Responding to tragedy. Silence, probably, is best. Some will be
> >driven
> >> >to
> >> >> speak. Would that those who are _not_ driven would be silent. It's a
> >> >private
> >> >> decision, of course, but in general poets should be afraid of poetry
&
> >> >> should prefer silence to the lyrical desire to express themselves.
> >> >>
> >> >> 6. Jazz, marginalia, birds at the feeder. Yes, of course, but these
all
> >> >have
> >> >> their place in the public world. Wittgenstein argues that, because
> >> >language
> >> >> itself is a consensual amalgam of various & competing games played
in
> >> >social
> >> >> space that there can be no such thing as private language. Too many
> >poets
> >> >> don't understand this.
> >> >>
> >> >> 7. & so on in the same vein.
> >> >>
> >> >> jd
> >> >> ======================
> >> >> Joseph Duemer
> >> >> School of Liberal Arts, 5750
> >> >> Clarkson University
> >> >> Potsdam NY 13699
> >> >> 315.268.3967
> >> >> ======================
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> _______________________________________________
> >> >> New-Poetry mailing list
> >> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >> >
> >> >_______________________________________________
> >> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >>
> >> ==
> >> Poetry Catamaran
> >>
> >> "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known
> >mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"
> >>
> >> Robert R. Cobb
> >> AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
> >> http://rrcobb.tripod.com
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> New-Poetry mailing list
> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> ==
> Poetry Catamaran
>
> "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known
mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"
>
> Robert R. Cobb
> AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
> http://rrcobb.tripod.com
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Mon Oct  1 22:05:27 2001
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole)
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2001 22:05:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry & Tragedy again
References: <20011002015938.51503.qmail@web12101.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00ae01c14ae6$bd830b60$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>


> 
> --- theoldmole <tadrichards at prodigy.net> wrote:
> > Not by all that much. I've made more money from soft-core porn than
> > either.
> 
> Phew!  That was so close to "soft core corn," which of course is due to
> over-cooking.
> 
> - Jim
> 

So was what I did.

Tad
> =====
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
> Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
> "Ripples" @ <http://www.poetserv.net>
> Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
> http://phone.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Tue Oct  2 00:30:28 2001
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 23:30:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Collins on Silence
Message-ID: <200110020431.f924VrP07760@mx1.mx.voyager.net>

Yes, I think Collins's poem is one of the many "I, too, dislike it" lyrics
that poets are always writing.  When poets praise silence, I always suspect
that they're just whining, myself.  Maybe this is the legacy of reading (and
writing) too many "silence in the snowy fields" poems back in my mis-spent
youth.   

In any case, silence may be the appropriate moral response to some events
(not sure), but isn't a poem praising silence rather too close to one of
those glib paradoxes ("this sentence is false") that are mostly good to fill
up blackboard space? 

That isn't exactly what Collins is up to, I don't think, but he seems aware
of his own absurdity, which I like.  Collins may or may not be a great poet
(I find him often wonderful, for what that's worth), but there's certainly a
dark streak running through his work that doesn't always get talked about,
seems to me.  

Hadn't read the Wagoner in years--thanks for reminding me.  

David Graham

_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________

----------
>From: JforJames at aol.com
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Collins on Silence
>Date: Mon, Oct 1, 2001, 3:59 PM
>

>THE POETS AGREE TO BE QUIET BY THE SWAMP
>
>They hold their hands over their mouths
>And stare at the stretch of water.
>What can be said has been said before:
>Strokes of light like herons' legs in the cattails,
>Mud underneath, frogs lying even deeper.
>Therefore, the poets may keep quiet.
>But the corners of their mouths grin past their hands.
>They stick their elbows out into the evening,
>Stoop, and begin the ancient croaking.
>
>by David Wagoner
>
>"Shadow" made me think of this poem...tho it's humorous 
>rather than grave, as Collins is being in his poem. (But doth he
>protest too much?) Is what Collins is doing--writing a poem 
>expressing a desire to escape from language--akin the "antilogy" 
>in rhetoric?
>Finnegan


From moira_russell at hotmail.com  Tue Oct  2 03:36:40 2001
From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell)
Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2001 23:36:40 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Collins on Silence
Message-ID: <F1024SfjBZ8tnhYsBie00005105@hotmail.com>

>Yes, I think Collins's poem is one of the many "I, too, dislike it" lyrics
>that poets are always writing.  When poets praise silence, I always suspect
>that they're just whining, myself.

Either that, or it's wishful thinking....

Years and years and years ago, I read a profile in "The Santa Fe Reporter" 
(a very local rag) of a poet who wrote a very long, very impassioned poem 
about how he had gotten sick of making little black marks on white paper and 
had looked over and seen ants milling over a bit of spilled sugar water, or 
watermelon, or something, and thought how infinitely nobler and better their 
labor was than his.  The reaction of the ants was not reported.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

"We work in the dark--we do what we can--we give what we have. Our doubt is 
our passion, and our passion is our task. The rest is the madness of art." 
-- Henry James

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp



From Jtcanaday at aol.com  Tue Oct  2 09:50:52 2001
From: Jtcanaday at aol.com (Jtcanaday at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 09:50:52 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet of the Month
Message-ID: <67.1ab66c16.28eb203c@aol.com>

PoetryNet is pleased to announce that the Poet of the Month for October is 
David Lehman. Please stop by for a visit, and don't forget to explore the 
archive, which contains the work of previous featured poets, including Ralph 
Burns, Hilda Raz, Ann Townsend, Richard Katrovas, R.S. Gwynn, Anthony 
Lombardy, Emily Grosholz, A.E. Stallings, and Sandra Meek--to name only those 
from this past year. The archives now date back nearly four years. Join us at:

<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/poetrynet/">http://members.aol.com/poetrynet/
</A>

Best wishes,

John Canaday


From GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU  Tue Oct  2 11:44:03 2001
From: GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU (Graham, David)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 10:44:03 -0500 
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Poet of the Month
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDF50@mail.ripon.edu>

Let me add my wholehearted endorsement to this site, which is one of the
most information-rich ones around, with high signal to noise ratio, and few
distracting graphics.  

David Lehman's not exactly starving for attention, of course, but what I
particularly value are the features on poets who should be better known,
such as Michael McFee, Michael Chitwood, Richard Frost.  

David Graham

===================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
===================

> ----------
> From: 	Jtcanaday at aol.com
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Tuesday, October 2, 2001 8:50 AM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	[New-Poetry] Poet of the Month
> 
> 
> PoetryNet is pleased to announce that the Poet of the Month for October is
> 
> David Lehman. Please stop by for a visit, and don't forget to explore the 
> archive, which contains the work of previous featured poets, including
> Ralph 
> Burns, Hilda Raz, Ann Townsend, Richard Katrovas, R.S. Gwynn, Anthony 
> Lombardy, Emily Grosholz, A.E. Stallings, and Sandra Meek--to name only
> those 
> from this past year. The archives now date back nearly four years. Join us
> at:
> 
> <A
> HREF="http://members.aol.com/poetrynet/">http://members.aol.com/poetrynet/
> </A>
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> John Canaday
> 


From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Tue Oct  2 11:58:10 2001
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 11:58:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Poet of the Month
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDF50@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <001801c14b5b$090defe0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

We're all starving for attention. Even Billy Collins will have a ways to go
before he reaches the popularity of Jewel. And good sites that direct an
audience to poetry are a good thing.


  Tad Richards                       "Well said, old mole."
    The Old Mole                         Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet
    of the MoleNet                          Act I, Scene 5
          http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
----- Original Message -----
From: "Graham, David" <GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 11:44 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Poet of the Month


> Let me add my wholehearted endorsement to this site, which is one of the
> most information-rich ones around, with high signal to noise ratio, and
few
> distracting graphics.
>
> David Lehman's not exactly starving for attention, of course, but what I
> particularly value are the features on poets who should be better known,
> such as Michael McFee, Michael Chitwood, Richard Frost.
>
> David Graham
>
> ===================
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> ===================
>
> > ----------
> > From: Jtcanaday at aol.com
> > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 2, 2001 8:50 AM
> > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet of the Month
> >
> >
> > PoetryNet is pleased to announce that the Poet of the Month for October
is
> >
> > David Lehman. Please stop by for a visit, and don't forget to explore
the
> > archive, which contains the work of previous featured poets, including
> > Ralph
> > Burns, Hilda Raz, Ann Townsend, Richard Katrovas, R.S. Gwynn, Anthony
> > Lombardy, Emily Grosholz, A.E. Stallings, and Sandra Meek--to name only
> > those
> > from this past year. The archives now date back nearly four years. Join
us
> > at:
> >
> > <A
> >
HREF="http://members.aol.com/poetrynet/">http://members.aol.com/poetrynet/
> > </A>
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > John Canaday
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Oct  2 12:16:35 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 12:16:35 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] HIGHLY PRIZED MSS.
Message-ID: <90.1ac1e640.28eb4263@aol.com>

Hey, John Canaday,
If I'm remembering correctly you won the 
2001 Walt Whitman Prize (Academy of Am. Poets). 
Congrats & a high-five. 
I also wanted to publicly congratulate Gray Jacobik, of
this list, who won the AWP Poetry Prize this year.
For her, that makes 3 book-length manuscript awards
within a span of about 4 years--Juniper Prize
('98, UMass Press) and XJ Kennedy Prize ('99,
Texas Review Press).  
I'm fairly sure Joe Duemer won a ms. prize 
(prize name escaping me),too, just this past year. 
The Whitman and some of the others have
been around for years...but a recent scan
of Poets & Writers' Deadlines pages seems 
to indicate an ever increasing number of book-length 
ms. poetry prizes. Is there a danger of saturation 
and thus less attention for these prize-winning 
manuscripts?
Finnegan
> PoetryNet is pleased to announce that the Poet of the Month for October is 
>  David Lehman. Please stop by for a visit, and don't forget to explore the 
>  archive, which contains the work of previous featured poets, including 
Ralph 
> 
>  Burns, Hilda Raz, Ann Townsend, Richard Katrovas, R.S. Gwynn, Anthony 
>  Lombardy, Emily Grosholz, A.E. Stallings, and Sandra Meek--to name only 
> those 
>  from this past year. The archives now date back nearly four years. Join us 
> at:
>  
>  <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/poetrynet/">
http://members.aol.com/poetrynet/
>  </A>
>  
>  Best wishes,
>  
>  John Canaday
>  ___________


From lcrespi at yahoo.com  Tue Oct  2 12:17:24 2001
From: lcrespi at yahoo.com (Linda Crespi)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 09:17:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] October Snakeskin
In-Reply-To: <67.1ab66c16.28eb203c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20011002161724.73285.qmail@web13903.mail.yahoo.com>


 www.snakeskin.org.uk   October Snakeskin is the Journeys and Arrivals special, guest-edited by Alan Papprill. Poets included are: Tony Chad
J.D.Heskin
Halvard Johnson
Errol Kidd
Leonard Kress
Lyn Moir
Helena Nelson
Ken Osborne
Alan Papprill
Jessy RandallSally Buckner
Martin Burke
R.K.Singh
Carolyn Thompson
Nicolette Turner
Philip Vassallo
 Last month's mini-crisis over the www.snakeskin.org.uk address has been solved. A firm employed by the firm that re-routes suffered concurrently from insolvency and the Nimda virus.  Things are now on a firmer footing - permanently, George hopes. Linda

The Crespi Page is at:
http://snakeskin.org.uk/crespi.htm
New work appears usually in Snakeskin Webzine: 
http://snakeskin.org.uk


---------------------------------
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From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu  Tue Oct  2 15:41:54 2001
From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Prentiss, Amber)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 15:41:54 -0400 
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTimes.com Article: The Eerily Intimate Power of Poetry to Conso
 le
Message-ID: <E7C06C25D501D511BA9900508BB82AA90DE1B5@ness.agnesscott.edu>

 

Poetry in the news. For once. 

-Amber

The Eerily Intimate Power of Poetry to Console

October 1, 2001 

By DINITIA SMITH


 

Bits of famous poems, original poems, snatches of verse
pinned alongside photos of the victims. In the weeks since
the terrorist attacks, people have been consoling
themselves - and one another - with poetry in an almost
unprecedented way. Almost immediately after the event,
improvised memorials often conceived around poems sprang up
all over the city, in store windows, at bus stops, in
Washington Square Park, Brooklyn Heights and elsewhere. And
poems flew through cyberspace across the country in e-mails
from friend to friend. 

On the day of the disaster, someone sent a copy of
Shelley's "Ozymandias" to a circle of friends and suggested
that if the World Trade Center were ever to be rebuilt, it
should bear a plaque with the inscription "My name is
Ozymandias, king of kings:/ Look on my works, ye Mighty,
and despair!" 

Copies of Auden's "September 1, 1939," written after
Germany invaded Poland, were everywhere. "The unmentionable
odour of death," Auden wrote, "Offends the September
night." 

At Union Square Park, which had one of the biggest
memorials, an American-Indian poem was pinned on the wire
fence: "In the dawn I gathered cedar-boughs/ Sweet, sweet
was their odor/ They were wet with tears/ The sweetness
will not leave my hands." Another mourner put up lines from
Yeats: "All the words that I utter,/ And all the words that
I write,/ Must spread out their wings untiring,/ And never
rest in their flight,/ Till they come where your sad, sad
heart is." 

Three days after the attack, at a memorial service for the
victims at the 92nd Street Y, David Yezzi, director of the
Unterberg Poetry Center, read lines by the Israeli poet
Yehuda Amichai: "This is the end of the landscape. Among
blocks/ of concrete and rusting iron/ there's a fig tree
with heavy fruit/ but even kids don't come around to pick
it." 

The poet laureate of the United States, Billy Collins, said
that since Sept. 11 he had been inundated with poems from
friends - poems by Yeats, by the Chilean poet Pablo Neruda,
by the Polish poet Wislawa Szymborska - all writers, he
noted, from countries that have known war. "We, as
innocents, as Americans, have never been invaded," Mr.
Collins said. "We haven't produced a poetry that has much
authority in this area." 

"With all of the neglect of poetry and the hand wringing
about how other media have bulldozed poets," Mr. Collins
said, "in times of crisis it's interesting that people
don't turn to the novel or say, `We should all go out to a
movie,' or, `Ballet would help us.' It's always poetry.
What we want to hear is a human voice speaking directly in
our ear." 

Mr. Collins compared the status of the poet in contemporary
life to that of the goalie in hockey. "The goalie in hockey
stands apart from others, marginalized," he said. "When all
the skating and sliding around on the ice begins to fail
us, the goalie is the poet." 

For 10 years Mr. Collins has been running a poetry program
at the Katonah Public Library in Westchester County. On the
Sunday after the disaster, Stephen Dunn, the poet, was the
featured speaker. "We had well over 100 people," Mr.
Collins said. "Normally 40 or 30 would be a respectable
audience." 

Mr. Dunn began by reading one of his poems called "To a
Terrorist": "For the historical ache, the ache passed down/
which finds its circumstances and becomes/ the present
ache, I offer this poem/ without hope, knowing there's
nothing,/ not even revenge, which alleviates/ a life like
yours. . . ." 

But after that initial poem, Mr. Dunn announced that from
then on he was going to read only love poems: "I am
astounded/ by the various kisses we're capable of," he
read, from his poem "Each From Different Heights." 

And reading love poems aloud in the midst of sorrow seemed
just the right thing to do, Mr. Collins said. "I felt after
the reading that he had provided a small counterweight to
put on the other side of the dreadfully lopsided scale," he
said. "It was a tiny weight in the other direction, the
beginning of moving back to equilibrium." 

The poet Robert Pinsky, who is a former poet laureate of
the United States, said he had also been showered with
poems from friends, as well as by requests from various
publications for poems in keeping with the general mood of
mourning. On "The NewsHour With Jim Lehrer" right after the
tragedy, Mr. Pinsky, who is a regular presence on the
program, read Marianne Moore's "What Are Years?," a poem
that has been passed frequently from person to person
through e-mail in recent weeks. "What is our innocence,/
what is our guilt? All are/ naked, none is safe." 

"Poetry has an intimacy because it is in the reader's
voice, in one person's breath," Mr. Pinsky said, echoing
Mr. Collins. "We are in a culture of spectacle. With
poetry, you say it aloud yourself, in your own voice." 

In ancient societies and even today in oral cultures,
poetry has had a public function, as the repository of
stories, genealogies, moral ideas and collective emotion.
But in recent history, "the job of the poet has become more
and more marginalized," said Bob Holman, a poet who has
been involved in the spoken word movement, an effort to
take poetry down from its pedestal. The poet has become
"the player of words," he said, engaging mostly in
high-level language games. 

But changes are occurring, said Mr. Holman, ever hopeful,
"as our culture listens to language artistically and poetry
becomes more democratized and participatory." 

He quoted from a poem by William Carlos Williams: "It is
difficult/ to get the news from poems/ yet men die
miserably every day/ for lack/ of what is found there." 

"I think we are fulfilling William Carlos Williams's poem,"
Mr. Holman said. "We are finding the news in poetry."

http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/01/arts/01POEM.html?ex=1003032061&ei=1&en
=c1a22a9b7e060e64



HOW TO ADVERTISE
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help at nytimes.com.  

Copyright 2001 The New York Times Company


From wasanthony at yahoo.com  Tue Oct  2 16:23:38 2001
From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 13:23:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTimes.com Article: The Eerily Intimate Power of Poetry to Conso le
In-Reply-To: <E7C06C25D501D511BA9900508BB82AA90DE1B5@ness.agnesscott.edu>
Message-ID: <20011002202338.51777.qmail@web12104.mail.yahoo.com>

Related to this:  a friend is trying to find the quote by Churchill
that contains a phrase about poetry's ability to console.  I saw it
somewhere in the last week or so but am drawing a blank.  Does anyone
know the quote?  Google hasn't helped.

- Jim

--- "Prentiss, Amber" <aprentiss at agnesscott.edu> wrote:
>  
> 
> Poetry in the news. For once. 
> 
> -Amber
> 
> The Eerily Intimate Power of Poetry to Console
> 
> October 1, 2001 
> 
> By DINITIA SMITH


=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
"Ripples" @ <http://www.poetserv.net>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

__________________________________________________
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From duemer at clarkson.edu  Tue Oct  2 16:31:14 2001
From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 16:31:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] HIGHLY PRIZED MSS.
References: <90.1ac1e640.28eb4263@aol.com>
Message-ID: <007b01c14b81$2ebeb8c0$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

<<I'm fairly sure Joe Duemer won a ms. prize (prize name escaping me),too,
just this past year.>>

The Ohio State Univ / The Journal Award. _Magical Thinking_ to appear just
after the first of the year.

======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
======================







From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Oct  2 16:55:59 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 16:55:59 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] HIGHLY PRIZED MSS.
Message-ID: <14.1b726461.28eb83df@aol.com>

In a message dated 10/2/01 4:41:31 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
duemer at clarkson.edu writes:

> The Ohio State Univ / The Journal Award. _Magical Thinking_ to appear just
>  after the first of the year.
> 
Joe, thanks for the reminder and Congrats. 
Finnegan


From duemer at clarkson.edu  Tue Oct  2 18:57:14 2001
From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 18:57:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] HIGHLY PRIZED MSS.
References: <90.1ac1e640.28eb4263@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c14b95$941e2b60$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

<<The Whitman and some of the others have been around for years...but a
recent scan of Poets & Writers' Deadlines pages seems to indicate an ever
increasing number of book-length ms. poetry prizes. Is there a danger of
saturation and thus less attention for these prize-winning manuscripts?>>

It would be disingenuous, having just won one of these, to complain. For the
record, the OSU Prize has been around for about 10 years. I'm not crazy
about the whole prize system, but given the economics of poetry publishing
it's hard to see much of an alternative--at least if you want even minimal
distribution. My first book won a prize & was published by a university
press. To say the least, it didn't set the world on fire, but it now resides
in lots of libraries. My second book was published by a small press &
disappeared without a trace, though I spent a lot of time promoting it
myself. With this latest book, there is even a modest advertising budget &
someone seriously interested in promoting & distributing it. That's a very
nice feeling. There are a few independent small presses that, by dint of
love for poetry & hard work, manage to get their books distributed (Mark
Weiss's Junction Press in San Diego comes to mind), but without at least
minimal institutional backing, the publishing of poetry in the US is very,
very difficult.

jd
======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
======================







From duemer at clarkson.edu  Tue Oct  2 19:10:28 2001
From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 19:10:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] In Favor of Silence
References: <200110020431.f924VrP07760@mx1.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <001101c14b97$6d8bade0$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

David,
Wittgenstein famously said, "That which we cannot speak about we must pass
over in silence." This is the last sentence of his first book & was at the
time it was published taken to be a statement in favor of logical
positivism's notion that that which could not be rigorously described did
not exist, but W's later work demonstrates that he believed there were many
things "we cannot speak about" which clearly existed. Poetry, it seems to
me, in its hyperbolic way, often approaches exactly those unspeakable
subjects, whether love or terror or beatitude, but the best poems then veer
again toward silence. Yes, we will, being poets, break the silence, but may
it please god we do not merely chatter.

Many years ago now Donald Hall published a couplet in Poetry that took the
first line of Wittgenstein's Tractatus Logico Philosophicus as its own first
line:

"The world is all that is the case.
Now stop your blubbering and wash your face."

I wrote at the bottom of the page:

What we cannot speak about
We must pass over in silence,
Else we harm the ones we love
And come at last to violence.

jd
======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
======================







From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Tue Oct  2 20:09:24 2001
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 19:09:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] In Favor of Silence
Message-ID: <200110030006.f9306Nt58780@mx10.mx.voyager.net>

When Wittgenstein enters the conversation, it's no doubt time for me to
exit.  But (chatty sucker that I am) I'm not so judicious at the moment.  I
freely admit I have no idea what that famous sentence of Wittgenstein means,
unless it's (a) tautological; or (b) relatively close to what Marianne Moore
says in her poem "Silence":
 
     The deepest feeling always shows itself in silence; 
     not in silence, but restraint.

It's that final qualification that wins my assent.  Yes, by all means:
restraint, care, tact, moral honesty, and avoidance of silly chatter. 
Especially at charged moments.  But silence as goal or moral imperative?  I
don't see it, honestly.

Of course, there are many things in the realm of philosophy, moral or
otherwise, that I have trouble with.  I'm reminded of one of my favorite
cartoons:  mousy professorial type in a bar, with a huge robot standing
right behind his stool.  He remarks to the bartender:  "He's programmed to
take me home as soon as I start quoting Nietzsche."

David Graham, falling silent at last. . . .

_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________

----------
>From: "Joseph Duemer" <duemer at clarkson.edu>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] In Favor of Silence
>Date: Tue, Oct 2, 2001, 6:10 PM
>

>David,
>Wittgenstein famously said, "That which we cannot speak about we must pass
>over in silence." This is the last sentence of his first book & was at the
>time it was published taken to be a statement in favor of logical
>positivism's notion that that which could not be rigorously described did
>not exist, but W's later work demonstrates that he believed there were many
>things "we cannot speak about" which clearly existed. Poetry, it seems to
>me, in its hyperbolic way, often approaches exactly those unspeakable
>subjects, whether love or terror or beatitude, but the best poems then veer
>again toward silence. Yes, we will, being poets, break the silence, but may
>it please god we do not merely chatter.
>
>Many years ago now Donald Hall published a couplet in Poetry that took the
>first line of Wittgenstein's Tractatus Logico Philosophicus as its own first
>line:
>
>"The world is all that is the case.
>Now stop your blubbering and wash your face."
>
>I wrote at the bottom of the page:
>
>What we cannot speak about
>We must pass over in silence,
>Else we harm the ones we love
>And come at last to violence.
>
>jd
>======================
>Joseph Duemer


From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Oct  2 21:34:24 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 21:34:24 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stride Chapbook Series 2001 - Charles Wright, Franz Wright
Message-ID: <11.1b8a6a65.28ebc520@aol.com>

Date:    Mon, 1 Oct 2001 21:54:20 -0400
From:    Ethan Paquin <epaquin at INR.NET>
Subject: Stride Chapbook Series 2001 - Charles Wright, Franz Wright

NOW AVAILABLE FROM STRIDE BOOKS
(www.stridebooks.co.uk)

*Stride Americana Chapbook Series*

Stride Books introduces its series of handsomely-designed chaps,
appearing each spring and autumn, featuring never-before-seen and
original work by renowned American poets.

NOW AVAILABLE - FALL 2001

"HELL AND OTHER POEMS"
Franz Wright
28 pp.
$10.00

"NIGHT MUSIC"
Charles Wright
24 pp.
$10.00

COMING - SPRING 2002

Lyn Hejinian; other poets TBA.

Send check or money order, payable to Stride Books, to Ethan Paquin,
Advisory Editor, 85 Old Nashua Rd., Londonderry, NH 03053.

contact:
ethan at slope.org
or
editor at stridebooks.co.uk


From MillB at aol.com  Tue Oct  2 21:47:15 2001
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 21:47:15 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] HIGHLY PRIZED MSS.
Message-ID: <d8.ccf3d54.28ebc823@aol.com>

Greetings:

I'll probably get flayed and drawn and quartered for this, but here goes~~

In my opinion, the whole. . .financial aspect (plan?) of many mss 
competitions is problematic: entry fees are used to raise money to publish 
winning books, compensate judges and readers, support the contest and 
possibly to fund scholarships and other creative projects.  Not to sell the 
book.  Not to help the writers.  Not to establish writers' reputations or 
audience.

After a work is published, there should be something else.  . . unless there 
is a lot of writer buy-in and support. . . "winning" books remain unsold.  

There are some great competitions.  There are also a number of not-so-great 
ones.  Ones with big-sounding names that. . .collect entry fees, hire 
well-known poets as judges, publish books and then.  . . disolve themselves 
of the entire process--leaving the writer to champion any readings or 
publicity or reviews himself. . .

A good publisher should be selling the product to bookstores, setting up ads, 
etc.  This seems to--in many cases--not be happening.

If a person enters even a few competitions for a few years, the entry fees 
and copying and time and postage rival the cost of a vanity press.  What's 
the real difference?


Mill


From duemer at clarkson.edu  Tue Oct  2 21:52:51 2001
From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 21:52:51 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] HIGHLY PRIZED MSS.
References: <d8.ccf3d54.28ebc823@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000c01c14bae$1d0760a0$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

Mill,
it's hard to evaluate your argument unless you name names. As for the
difference between competitions--& remember I have my reservations too--&
vanity presses, the competitions are judged. In the case of the OSU prize,
by the regular editors of the press & the cw faculty at OSU. I agree that
there have been abuses, though. And I absolutely agree that a publisher
makes a moral commitment when they publish a book to distribute it. What is
the meaning of "publish," after all? In the case of my second book, Owl
Creek Press _printed_ the book, but it can't really be said that they
_published_ it.

jd
======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
======================







From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Oct  2 23:00:51 2001
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 23:00:51 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] In Favor of Silence
In-Reply-To: <200110030006.f9306Nt58780@mx10.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGELNECAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

As a fan of silence, I feel bound to contribute
just a bit of Cage to this thread:

	"Slowly		,		as the talk goes on
	,		we are getting		nowhere
	and that is a pleasure		.

			from John Cage, "Lecture on Nothing"

Hal

> When Wittgenstein enters the conversation, it's no doubt time for me to
> exit.  But (chatty sucker that I am) I'm not so judicious at the moment.  I
> freely admit I have no idea what that famous sentence of Wittgenstein means,
> unless it's (a) tautological; or (b) relatively close to what Marianne Moore
> says in her poem "Silence":
>  
>      The deepest feeling always shows itself in silence; 
>      not in silence, but restraint.
> 
> It's that final qualification that wins my assent.  Yes, by all means:
> restraint, care, tact, moral honesty, and avoidance of silly chatter. 
> Especially at charged moments.  But silence as goal or moral imperative?  I
> don't see it, honestly.
> 
> Of course, there are many things in the realm of philosophy, moral or
> otherwise, that I have trouble with.  I'm reminded of one of my favorite
> cartoons:  mousy professorial type in a bar, with a huge robot standing
> right behind his stool.  He remarks to the bartender:  "He's programmed to
> take me home as soon as I start quoting Nietzsche."
> 
> David Graham, falling silent at last. . . .
> 
> _______________________
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> _______________________
> 
> ----------
> >From: "Joseph Duemer" <duemer at clarkson.edu>
> >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >Subject: [New-Poetry] In Favor of Silence
> >Date: Tue, Oct 2, 2001, 6:10 PM
> >
> 
> >David,
> >Wittgenstein famously said, "That which we cannot speak about we must pass
> >over in silence." This is the last sentence of his first book & was at the
> >time it was published taken to be a statement in favor of logical
> >positivism's notion that that which could not be rigorously described did
> >not exist, but W's later work demonstrates that he believed there were many
> >things "we cannot speak about" which clearly existed. Poetry, it seems to
> >me, in its hyperbolic way, often approaches exactly those unspeakable
> >subjects, whether love or terror or beatitude, but the best poems then veer
> >again toward silence. Yes, we will, being poets, break the silence, but may
> >it please god we do not merely chatter.
> >
> >Many years ago now Donald Hall published a couplet in Poetry that took the
> >first line of Wittgenstein's Tractatus Logico Philosophicus as its own first
> >line:
> >
> >"The world is all that is the case.
> >Now stop your blubbering and wash your face."
> >
> >I wrote at the bottom of the page:
> >
> >What we cannot speak about
> >We must pass over in silence,
> >Else we harm the ones we love
> >And come at last to violence.
> >
> >jd
> >======================
> >Joseph Duemer
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


From wasanthony at yahoo.com  Tue Oct  2 23:20:11 2001
From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 20:20:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] In Favor of Silence: ditto
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGELNECAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20011003032011.11287.qmail@web12107.mail.yahoo.com>



__________________________________________________
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From wasanthony at yahoo.com  Tue Oct  2 23:42:24 2001
From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 20:42:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] HIGHLY PRIZED MSS.
In-Reply-To: <d8.ccf3d54.28ebc823@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20011003034224.40058.qmail@web12106.mail.yahoo.com>

Publication is publication, no matter if the press/printer is the
publisher or vice versa.  Publication is a notch on one's belt in po
biz, and contests seem to be the most likely way to be published.  But
being published is for naught if there are no good reviews. 
Publishers/presses ask one for a list of possible reviewers, so of
course one sends in the names and addresses of those most likely to
produce positive reviews - one takes one's chances with those review
copies sent without one's control, though most of those will most
likely go to magazines where some of the work in the book was
originally published.  Then there's promotion, usually shared by author
and publisher/press/printer.  Then there's the prestige of the prize,
the National Poetry Series having more prestige than Spotted Sow's
Annual Compeition, for example.  So it goes.   Time will tell.  Unless
one's book from Spotted Sow is shredded 18 months after publication.

- Jim

--- MillB at aol.com wrote:
> Greetings:
> 
> I'll probably get flayed and drawn and quartered for this, but here
> goes~~
> 
> In my opinion, the whole. . .financial aspect (plan?) of many mss 
> competitions is problematic: entry fees are used to raise money to
> publish 
> winning books, compensate judges and readers, support the contest and
> 
> possibly to fund scholarships and other creative projects.  Not to
> sell the 
> book.  Not to help the writers.  Not to establish writers'
> reputations or 
> audience.
> 
> After a work is published, there should be something else.  . .
> unless there 
> is a lot of writer buy-in and support. . . "winning" books remain
> unsold.  
> 
> There are some great competitions.  There are also a number of
> not-so-great 
> ones.  Ones with big-sounding names that. . .collect entry fees, hire
> 
> well-known poets as judges, publish books and then.  . . disolve
> themselves 
> of the entire process--leaving the writer to champion any readings or
> 
> publicity or reviews himself. . .
> 
> A good publisher should be selling the product to bookstores, setting
> up ads, 
> etc.  This seems to--in many cases--not be happening.
> 
> If a person enters even a few competitions for a few years, the entry
> fees 
> and copying and time and postage rival the cost of a vanity press. 
> What's 
> the real difference?
> 
> 
> Mill
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
"Ripples" @ <http://www.poetserv.net>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
http://phone.yahoo.com


From moira_russell at hotmail.com  Wed Oct  3 01:00:47 2001
From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell)
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 21:00:47 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] In Favor of Silence
Message-ID: <F12zZ11EWHNkn4TVUQm0001bbde@hotmail.com>


>As a fan of silence, I feel bound to contribute just a bit of Cage to this 
>thread:

I think you meant this Cage quote instead:





Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

"We work in the dark--we do what we can--we give what we have. Our doubt is 
our passion, and our passion is our task. The rest is the madness of art." 
-- Henry James



_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp



From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Wed Oct  3 01:58:47 2001
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 01:58:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] HIGHLY PRIZED MSS.
In-Reply-To: <d8.ccf3d54.28ebc823@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20011003015847.029355@oak.cc.conncoll.edu>

Mill wrote:
>In my opinion, the whole. . .financial aspect (plan?) of many mss 
>competitions is problematic: entry fees are used to raise money to publish 
>winning books, compensate judges and readers, support the contest and 
>possibly to fund scholarships and other creative projects.  Not to sell the 
>book.  Not to help the writers.  Not to establish writers' reputations or 
>audience.

"They made a meager living taking in one another's laundry."
Is that Wilde on Synge's Aran Islanders?  Refresh my memory, please.

Wendy, whose books exist only thanks to contests and who just can't bear
another round of that.  But congratulations to Gray and Joe; the bright
side is that I'll be able to see your new poems.  (BTW, just got Jim
Cervantes'  _Live Music_, from Pecan Grove, & commend it to you all.)



From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com  Wed Oct  3 08:43:02 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 05:43:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] In Favor of Silence
Message-ID: <20011003124302.9251836FA@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From jdavis at panix.com  Wed Oct  3 09:15:02 2001
From: jdavis at panix.com (Jordan Davis)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 09:15:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Alas, John Cage...
In-Reply-To: <20011003124302.9251836FA@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.33.0110030912310.3584-100000@panix1.panix.com>

That's the problem with having a hit like 4'33" - nobody remembers the
rest of the work. Like, Kimberly Rew, before he was the tiny genius behind
"Walking on Sunshine", was the other half of the Soft Boys, imagine!

Jordan


PS I *do* want to thank all you cards for not mentioning the show Ally
McBeal





From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Wed Oct  3 09:40:33 2001
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 09:40:33 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] In Favor of Silence
Message-ID: <118.58dfba7.28ec6f51@aol.com>

As a composer, Cage's notion of silence was an ironic one. A devoted fan of the aleatoric world, Cage invited the chance intrusions of the world's music into his own, and he found ingenious ways to make participants of the sounds that fill our lives. Even in his compositions with muscian-produced sound, he welcomed equally the passing siren on the street outside the concert hall and the coughs and sneezes from within and the buzzing in our ears. In fact, often he'd insist upon opening the doors to the street. 

His *silence,* then, was a cunning thing, an ingenius co-conspirator in his plot to seduce the audience into listening to each other, and intently so: an audience made edgy and alert and even uncomfortable by the dramatic tension induced by a musician sitting motionless on stage. A tension, then, resolved by the din we think of as silence. 

What Cage found was a way to shatter the mirror that held together our rather naive perspective of what *music* is, as Picasso shattered perspective in the visual arts. Both knew (as Joyce knew, as Eliot knew) that time cannot be trapped on a flat surface, but that if you shatter the glass, what's found there in the wreckage are the little bits and glimpses of time. As artists -- whether musicians, visual artists, writers --I think what we're called upon to do is so spot (often as fragments) the alien force as it inhabiits the canvas, the page, the air. 

As artists, what we've known since the 20th century is that we have no idea what is real. The idea of it? The picture of it? The sound of it? What you get when you break the glass is possibility. For Cage, possibility was the music contained -- and wholly hearable -- within the fiction of silence.

Jeffrey  



In a message dated Wed, 3 Oct 2001  8:48:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, "Robert R.Cobb" <CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com> writes:

> Moira,
> 
> You forgot the quotation marks to open and close Cage's quote:  "
> 
> 
> 
> 
>                                                "
> 
> Bob C.
> 
> --- "Moira Russell" <moira_russell at hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>As a fan of silence, I feel bound to contribute just a bit of Cage to this 
> >>thread:
> >
> >I think you meant this Cage quote instead:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Moira Russell
> >Seattle, WA
> >
> >"We work in the dark--we do what we can--we give what we have. Our doubt is 
> >our passion, and our passion is our task. The rest is the madness of art." 
> >-- Henry James
> >
> >
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> ==
> Poetry Catamaran
> 
> "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?"
> 
> Robert R. Cobb
> AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry.
> http://rrcobb.tripod.com
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From MillB at aol.com  Wed Oct  3 10:05:57 2001
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 10:05:57 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] HIGHLY PRIZED MSS.
Message-ID: <ea.1bbf231d.28ec7545@aol.com>

JD:

I like (very much) your distinction between "printing" and "publishing."  For 
example, Copper Canyon Press publishes poetry books. . .

Mill


From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Oct  3 10:08:42 2001
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 10:08:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] HIGHLY PRIZED MSS.
In-Reply-To: <ea.1bbf231d.28ec7545@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEMFECAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

But do we need that distinction when we have the
word "marketing" to use? There's already another
distinction between printing and publishing. Printers
are contracted by publishers to print the books
the publishers publish. 

Hal, just muddling on

> JD:
> 
> I like (very much) your distinction between "printing" and "publishing."  For 
> example, Copper Canyon Press publishes poetry books. . .
> 
> Mill



From wasanthony at yahoo.com  Wed Oct  3 10:48:22 2001
From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 07:48:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] HIGHLY PRIZED MSS.
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEMFECAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20011003144822.52385.qmail@web12107.mail.yahoo.com>

S'o.k., Hal.  It's muddy to begin with because so many small publishers
are also the printers, or at least it used to be that way.  Maybe it's
so radically different now that the distinction holds.  Sure doesn't in
electronic publishing!  I'm editor, publisher and "printer."  There is
a distinction between promotion and marketing, but that gets so boring
I'm not even going to go there.

- Jim

--- Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:
> But do we need that distinction when we have the
> word "marketing" to use? There's already another
> distinction between printing and publishing. Printers
> are contracted by publishers to print the books
> the publishers publish. 
> 
> Hal, just muddling on
> 
> > JD:
> > 
> > I like (very much) your distinction between "printing" and
> "publishing."  For 
> > example, Copper Canyon Press publishes poetry books. . .
> > 
> > Mill
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
"Ripples" @ <http://www.poetserv.net>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Listen to your Yahoo! Mail messages from any phone.
http://phone.yahoo.com


From GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU  Wed Oct  3 11:06:01 2001
From: GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU (Graham, David)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 10:06:01 -0500 
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: HIGHLY PRIZED MSS.
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDF53@mail.ripon.edu>

Contest roulette does seem to be the name of the game these days, but it can
be dismaying.

I'm in the possibly odd position of *not* being a prize winner, except for
one chapbook.  Came close with my second full length book, which was an AWP
runner-up, and published under those auspices.  Otherwise, I've just had
some good slush-pile luck and even two solicitations.  

"Great" is a relative term, of course.  My sales figures, alas, speak for
themselves.  But it's a blessing just to be in print, no?  Lots of folks
aren't, and they're trying hard.  I'm very grateful to all my publishers.

Probably to the detriment of my so-called career, I maintain an iron curtain
in my mind between poetry and po-biz, one result of which is that I publish
less and less and seem to care about it accordingly. . . .

David Graham

===================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
===================

> ----------
> From: 	Wendy Battin
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Wednesday, October 3, 2001 12:58 AM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] HIGHLY PRIZED MSS.
> 
> Mill wrote:
> >In my opinion, the whole. . .financial aspect (plan?) of many mss 
> >competitions is problematic: entry fees are used to raise money to
> publish 
> >winning books, compensate judges and readers, support the contest and 
> >possibly to fund scholarships and other creative projects.  Not to sell
> the 
> >book.  Not to help the writers.  Not to establish writers' reputations or
> 
> >audience.
> 
> "They made a meager living taking in one another's laundry."
> Is that Wilde on Synge's Aran Islanders?  Refresh my memory, please.
> 
> Wendy, whose books exist only thanks to contests and who just can't bear
> another round of that.  But congratulations to Gray and Joe; the bright
> side is that I'll be able to see your new poems.  (BTW, just got Jim
> Cervantes'  _Live Music_, from Pecan Grove, & commend it to you all.)
> 
> 


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Oct  3 11:07:20 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 11:07:20 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] HIGHLY PRIZED MSS.
Message-ID: <12c.57c644e.28ec83a8@cs.com>

In a message dated 10/3/01 1:00:22 AM Central Daylight Time, 
wjbat at conncoll.edu writes:


> But congratulations to Gray and Joe; the bright
> side is that I'll be able to see your new poems.  (BTW, just got Jim
> Cervantes'  _Live Music_, from Pecan Grove, & commend it to you all.)
> 
> 

Nice ad for Gray in the current AWP Writer's Chronicle.
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From GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU  Wed Oct  3 11:21:57 2001
From: GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU (Graham, David)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 10:21:57 -0500 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Congrats
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDF55@mail.ripon.edu>

I'll add my praise to Gray J. and Joe D. for their forthcoming volumes, and
point interested readers to a recent and most welcome Tad Richards sighting,
in the very lively online mag *Cortland Review*, most recent issue:

http://www.cortlandreview.com/

David Graham

===================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
===================


From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed Oct  3 00:38:21 2001
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2001 23:38:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Silence in poetry
Message-ID: <B7E0006D.1DA8%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Here's another poem that paradoxically speaks of silence.  The poet is
Rachel Hadas.

Paul Lake


            Three Silences

            I

Of all the times when not so speak is best,
mother?s and infant?s is the easiest,
the milky mouth still warm against her breast.

Before a single year has passed, he?s well
along the way: language has cast its spell.
Each thing he sees now has a tale to tell.

A wide expanse of water: ocean. Look!
Next time, it seems that water is a brook.
The world?s loose leaves, bound up into a book.


            II

The habit holds for love. He wants to seize
lungsful of ardent new sublimities.
Years gradually pry him loose from these.

He comes to prize a glance?s eloquence,
learning to construct a whole romance
from hint and gesture, meaning carved from chance.

And finally silence. Nothing in a phrase
so speaks of love as an averted gaze,
sonnets succumbing to remembrances.


            III

At the Kiwanis traveling carnival
I ride beside you on the carousel.
You hold on solemnly, a little pale.

I don?t stretch out my hand. You ride alone.
Each mother?s glance reduplicates my own;
the baffled arc, the vulnerable bone.

Myself revolving in the mirror?s eye
as we go round beneath a cloudy sky,
eyeing my little boy attentively,

I swallow what I was about to say
(no loving admonition is the way
to bridge this gap) and hear the music play

and later, wordless, reach and lift you down
over the rigid horse?s shiny brown
mane, and press your body close against my own.

Stillness after motion,
the creaky music cranking, cranking down,
the carnival preparing to leave town.



From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Oct  3 16:06:21 2001
From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 16:06:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] HIGHLY PRIZED MSS.
References: <ea.1bbf231d.28ec7545@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3BBB6FBD.3FF4@nut-n-but.net>

I think there are for kinds of presses:

(1) those that print anything regardless of quality or 
marketability;

(2) those that print anything regardless of quality so long as it is
marketable;

(3) those that print anything regardless of marketability so long as
it its high in literary quality;

(4) those that only print that which is both marketable and high in
literary quality.

I respect only the ones in category (3); am not sure any in (4)
exist.

                                                   --Bob G.



From GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU  Wed Oct  3 16:25:04 2001
From: GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU (Graham, David)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 15:25:04 -0500 
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: HIGHLY PRIZED MSS.
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDF57@mail.ripon.edu>

A term like "marketable" seems nearly as squishy as "quality," doesn't it?
Look at presses like Copper Canyon, Sarabande, BOA or Graywolf, for example.
I am sure that they publish nothing that their editors don't believe is of
high quality.  The same is true, I would expect, at every small press and
university press in the land.

At the same time, they certainly *hope* and *believe* that there is some
market for what they publish, however small, and however much it is
subsidized.  Often enough they're wrong, if you're just looking at sales
figures, but such presses don't deliberately set out to lose money on a
given title.  I'm as much a dreamy romantic as most poets, but I do
understand that it costs money to print books.  I can respect a press all I
want for ignoring the bottom line, but meanwhile, who's paying to publish
the books?

So framing the discussion in the categories listed below seems fairly
pointless to me.  And no, I don't want to have a discussion of relative
"quality" in "mainstream" and "experimental" writing.

David Graham



===================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
===================

> ----------
> From: 	Bob Grumman
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Wednesday, October 3, 2001 3:06 PM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] HIGHLY PRIZED MSS.
> 
> I think there are for kinds of presses:
> 
> (1) those that print anything regardless of quality or 
> marketability;
> 
> (2) those that print anything regardless of quality so long as it is
> marketable;
> 
> (3) those that print anything regardless of marketability so long as
> it its high in literary quality;
> 
> (4) those that only print that which is both marketable and high in
> literary quality.
> 
> I respect only the ones in category (3); am not sure any in (4)
> exist.
> 
>                                                    --Bob G.
> 
> 


From moira_russell at hotmail.com  Wed Oct  3 16:26:43 2001
From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell)
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 12:26:43 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] HIGHLY PRIZED MSS.
Message-ID: <F104WVYgh4EAusQU7bv00012ebf@hotmail.com>

>From: Bob Grumman <BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] HIGHLY PRIZED MSS.
>Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 16:06:21 -0400
>
>I think there are for kinds of presses:

You forgot full court presses.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

"We work in the dark--we do what we can--we give what we have. Our doubt is 
our passion, and our passion is our task. The rest is the madness of art." 
-- Henry James

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp



From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com  Wed Oct  3 16:41:53 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 13:41:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] HIGHLY PRIZED MSS.
Message-ID: <20011003204153.BAFC42755@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Oct  3 17:34:20 2001
From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 17:34:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: HIGHLY PRIZED MSS.
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDF57@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <3BBB845B.516@nut-n-but.net>

> A term like "marketable" seems nearly as squishy as "quality," doesn't it?
> Look at presses like Copper Canyon, Sarabande, BOA or Graywolf, for example.
> I am sure that they publish nothing that their editors don't believe is of high quality.  The same is true, I would expect, at every small press and university press in the land.
> 
> At the same time, they certainly *hope* and *believe* that there is some
> market for what they publish, however small, and however much it is
> subsidized.  Often enough they're wrong, if you're just looking at sales
> figures, but such presses don't deliberately set out to lose money on a
> given title.  I'm as much a dreamy romantic as most poets, but I do
> understand that it costs money to print books.  I can respect a press all I
> want for ignoring the bottom line, but meanwhile, who's paying to publish
> the books?

The people who own the press.
 
> So framing the discussion in the categories listed below seems fairly
> pointless to me.  And no, I don't want to have a discussion of relative
> "quality" in "mainstream" and "experimental" writing.

My position is that in publishing there are (A) people (I'm one) 
who ask two (major) questions only about a manuscript submitted to 
them for publication: (1) does it seem to us that this is a work
of high cultural value and (2) can we somehow find the money and time 
to publish it.  Actually, for me there would be a third question:
if I don't publish it, will someone else publish it?  If the 
answer is yes, then I will be much less likely to publish it.  Those
who break publishers into printers and publishers would put these
kind of people with the printers because they generally have no time
for marketing.

There are (B) people (printers) who publish whatever they are
paid to publish.

There are (C) people who will publish anything they think will 
make money through sales or from grants or by making the 
publishers more marketable as academics; the mainstream publishing
industry consists of just about nothing but such persons; the
university publishing industry is close to as bad, but a little 
more subtle; the small press is a mixture.

There are, in theory, (D) people who will publish only works they
think are both high in quality and marketability.

And, sure, there are people in publishing who are hard to categorize.

                                                 --Bob G.



From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu  Wed Oct  3 17:49:42 2001
From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (Michael Magee)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 17:49:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Magee/Ward read in NYC this Saturday!
In-Reply-To: <3BBB845B.516@nut-n-but.net> from "Bob Grumman" at Oct 3, 2001 05:34:20 pm
Message-ID: <200110032149.RAA05805@dept.english.upenn.edu>

Hi folks, 

I'll be reading with Diane Ward this Saturday, Oct 6, @ 4pm at Double
Happiness in NYC.  Check: http://www.segue.org/calendar/   for directions,
details, etc.  I'll be reading from my new book _Morning Constitutional_
plus some very recent work.  Hope to see you there!

-Mike.




From thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com  Wed Oct  3 18:23:13 2001
From: thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com (bob cooper)
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 22:23:13 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: HIGHLY PRIZED MSS.
Message-ID: <F61IuRVFvfr3qTN7R3e00015745@hotmail.com>

Highly Prized Mss and Publications...

With these publications yr talking about? Is it the same as the Pamphlet 
Competitions that were around in the UK in the last decade? With them if y 
enters by paying a small(ish) fee and if y then win y get a 16 - 32 page 
collection out of it? But I?m (also) assuming you?re also talking about cash 
prizes for 64 page books too? (But, there, do you mean prizes given after 
publication, dosh handed over by other bodies?) The two seem very separate 
to me.

I value both. I?ve celebrated with poets (and publishers), commiserated with 
them after they went to the boozy do and came back with only pickled onion 
breath and a hangover. And I know about the future differences the poetry 
publishers? feel in their bank balances if their candidated books don?t get 
chosen to carry the extra bright label. Their sales aren?t boosted and they 
have to remain a tad more cautious than they would like to be with other 
ventures they?d like to pursue.

As for the small collections, the pamphlets... I like ?em. I?ve always liked 
small collections more than the mega-bulky Selected and Collected whose 
paperback spines are never quite up to the job. The neat little volumes are 
cheap to buy. They?re sometimes (frequently) far better than a first (64 
page big, I mean) volume for presenting a poet?s work. There?s a precision, 
a clarity, and a neatness in the selection that shows strengths (whereas 
bigger books show weaknesses as well).

I also like ?em cos I?ve won 5 of the Competitions in 6 years, and, in these 
impecunious times, it?s a good way to advertise the fact that you have work 
on offer for readers. If y do readings y can shift quite a few, cos they?re 
canny cheap. I also know it also means a lot for the small presses who 
publish the books as well because it advertises them and the other poets on 
their lists...  And, with the paucity of other funding, enables poetry to 
survive in a publishing market with only one or two big greedy giants (and 
even university presses who don?t see poetry as being even as important to 
promote as sheet music*). Sadly, though, the entrance fees don?t meet the 
demands of maintaining a list, of promoting the winner?s work as much as the 
publishers really would like, and paying fair fees for the people who have 
to read through the pages and pages of poems!

As for the competitions that?re scams... They seem easy to smell in the UK. 
Cos, if y look for their past winners - they either don?t mention any, or 
they don?t have the names of poets y know, who now have many bigger books to 
their name...

And "marketable"... now there's a 21st. Century word capitalist word! I only 
know what my publishers do. I know when I ask for more books I get sent 
them. When they've sold out they (sometimes) let me know. And we each share 
strong hopes that we get (good) Reviews (and post them to each other!). 
Newspapers hardly cover poetry books in the UK now. But that's what seems to 
make books marketable.

Hope I?m not too late in joining in this discussion... university work means 
long hours, means getting in late y?know.

Bob

(*hey, just noticed I said that! Sheet music... It ain?t meant as a slight 
on the messages about songs and writing them, I?m enjoying that! Almost 
daydreaming myself of how to make a bit extra...)





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From wasanthony at yahoo.com  Wed Oct  3 18:57:44 2001
From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 15:57:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] listserv query
Message-ID: <20011003225744.31619.qmail@web12108.mail.yahoo.com>

A writer friend is looking for a listserv "which addresses writing and
how politics and living impact our work."  Anyone know of such an
animal?

- Jim

=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
"Ripples" @ <http://www.poetserv.net>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month.
http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info1


From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Wed Oct  3 22:08:21 2001
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 21:08:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Big Bad Marketing
Message-ID: <200110040204.f9424AB64353@mx13.mx.voyager.net>

Bob Grumman asserts:  

"There are (C) people who will publish anything they think will 
make money through sales or from grants or by making the 
publishers more marketable as academics; the mainstream publishing
industry consists of just about nothing but such persons; the
university publishing industry is close to as bad, but a little 
more subtle; the small press is a mixture."

This is certainly a fantasy unrelated to any reality I've ever known.  Care
to name names, Bob?

In fact, it's hard to imagine more idealism and stubborn devotion to
unprofitable notions of quality than you'll find in the average small or
university press these days, I think.   
_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________


From duemer at clarkson.edu  Wed Oct  3 22:33:17 2001
From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 22:33:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Big Bad Marketing
References: <200110040204.f9424AB64353@mx13.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <000401c14c7c$ed20f3e0$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

Bob Grumman asserts:

"There are (C) people who will publish anything they think will
make money through sales or from grants or by making the
publishers more marketable as academics; the mainstream publishing
industry consists of just about nothing but such persons; the
university publishing industry is close to as bad, but a little
more subtle; the small press is a mixture."

This is ludicrous & insulting to legendary editors like Bin Ramke, David
Young, Paul Zimmer, David Citino & etc. Not to mention the list of poets
published by these & other editors at university presses. With David I say,
Would you like to get down to cases or are you just blowing smoke?

jd
======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
======================







From Cadaly at aol.com  Wed Oct  3 23:06:40 2001
From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 23:06:40 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Alas, John Cage...
Message-ID: <10.1371284b.28ed2c40@aol.com>

er, a replacement for 25% of the Soft Boys, that eccentric quartet led by 
Robyn Hitchcock

Hitchcock was just on Sundance last night, the Johnathan Demme-filmed show 
from NY

Rgds,
Catherine "where's my hat?" Daly


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From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Oct  4 05:27:24 2001
From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 05:27:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Big Bad Marketing
References: <200110040204.f9424AB64353@mx13.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <3BBC2B7B.3910@nut-n-but.net>

David Graham wrote:
> 
> Bob Grumman asserts:
> 
> "There are (C) people who will publish anything they think will
> make money through sales or from grants or by making the
> publishers more marketable as academics; the mainstream publishing
> industry consists of just about nothing but such persons; the
> university publishing industry is close to as bad, but a little
> more subtle; the small press is a mixture."
> 
> This is certainly a fantasy unrelated to any reality I've ever known. > Care to name names, Bob?

BOA, to start.   

> In fact, it's hard to imagine more idealism and stubborn devotion to
> unprofitable notions of quality than you'll find in the average 
> small or university press these days, I think.

With their pay to enter our contests, and their tell us what market
you think there is for your book, etc., and--in the case of most
university presses--their highly-paid managers who may make nothing
directly from the venture, but look good, which helps with tenure, etc. 
And, of course, it does get to the topic you don't like, which is the
fact that these presses publish just about nothing that unmarketably 
depends for its aesthetic effect on poetic devices not in wide use 
since the fifties or before.  I'll admit to exaggerating, but not 
all that much.

And I WOULD change the paragraph you quoted to:

> "There are (C) people who will NOT publish anything they think will
> NOT make money through sales or from grants or by making the
> publishers more marketable as academics; the mainstream publishing
> industry consists of just about nothing but such persons (or worse); 
> the university publishing industry is close to as bad, but a little
> more subtle; the small press is a mixture."

Some mainstream publishers (E) will publish anything they think will 
make money, but most other presses won't.

                                                     --Bob G.



From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Oct  4 05:47:20 2001
From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 05:47:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Big Bad Marketing
References: <200110040204.f9424AB64353@mx13.mx.voyager.net> <000401c14c7c$ed20f3e0$18724342@twcny.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3BBC3028.632D@nut-n-but.net>

Joseph Duemer wrote:
> 
> Bob Grumman asserts:
> 
> "There are (C) people who will publish anything they think will
> make money through sales or from grants or by making the
> publishers more marketable as academics; the mainstream publishing
> industry consists of just about nothing but such persons; the
> university publishing industry is close to as bad, but a little
> more subtle; the small press is a mixture."
> 
> This is ludicrous & insulting to legendary editors like Bin Ramke, David
> Young, Paul Zimmer, David Citino & etc. Not to mention the list of poets
> published by these & other editors at university presses. With David I say,
> Would you like to get down to cases or are you just blowing smoke?
> 
> jd

On third thought, I've decided to substantially rephrase my
offending paragraph to:

> "There are (C) people who will NOT publish anything they think will
> NOT make money through sales or from grants or by making the
> publishers more marketable as academics; the mainstream publishing
> industry consists of just about nothing but such persons (or worse); 
> the university publishing industry is IN MANY CASES close to as bad, 
> but a little more subtle; the small press is a mixture."

This is an impression, probably exacerbated by the heavy cold I
have and my current personal despair at having something appreciably 
less than no money to do the things I want to do in the arts.  I
think it not all that far off from reality but am not going to make
more enemies by naming particular culprits (none of whom are greedy
philistines, but very few of whom are really sacrificing very much 
for what I consider real literary quality).

Publishing is a complex area with, needless to say, no pure villains
or heroes--but with a lot of room for improvement, even at the the
university presses. 
                                                    --Bob G.



From MillB at aol.com  Thu Oct  4 10:26:26 2001
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 10:26:26 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Editors and Ethics
Message-ID: <da.d06dcf3.28edcb92@aol.com>

Greetings:

A lot has been said about the slowness of editors responses and ethics. . .

Two years ago, I submitted work to a journal.  After about a year, when there 
was no response, I withdrew the submission.  Recently, I received an 
acceptance letter from the journal: "Sorry for the long delay--if these poems 
are still available, I'd like to publish two of them in blank journal and 
three of them in my "flagship" publication (which I did not submit to and had 
never heard of)."

Before I could respond yes or no, I discovered that my poems had already been 
included in the contributor copies of the journal that I received a week 
after the so-called acceptance letter.

Another situation that has happened to me is that I'm sent letters from 
editors, explaining that my poems are being considered or that they are 
"strong possibilities" or that they "made the first cut."  Then, without 
further notice or galley proofs, my work is published.

Mill


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu Oct  4 12:06:30 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 12:06:30 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Editors and Ethics
Message-ID: <6a.1468f520.28ede306@cs.com>

In a message dated 10/4/01 9:27:47 AM Central Daylight Time, MillB at aol.com 
writes:


> Greetings:
> 
> A lot has been said about the slowness of editors responses and ethics. . .
> 
> Two years ago, I submitted work to a journal.  After about a year, when 
> there 
> was no response, I withdrew the submission.  Recently, I received an 
> acceptance letter from the journal: "Sorry for the long delay--if these 
> poems 
> are still available, I'd like to publish two of them in blank journal and 
> three of them in my "flagship" publication (which I did not submit to and 
> had 
> never heard of)."
> 
> 

I just got some back from Poetry (form rejection)--about 8 months.  Sorry, 
but I think multiple submissions are totally justified.  If you get a double 
acceptance just refuse one of them.
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu Oct  4 12:15:22 2001
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 12:15:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Editors and Ethics
In-Reply-To: <da.d06dcf3.28edcb92@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIENOECAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Could be worse, Mill, or better, depending on how one 
looks at such things. Take, for example, finding, eight or
ten years after the fact, that you work had been included
in an anthology you'd never heard of or submitted to. Or,
again eight or ten years after the fact, that work you'd had
published in a graceful little mimeo mag had been republished
without so much as a howdy or thank you in a forty-buck
compilation of all the issues of that mag.

Shit happens.

Hal          "Flotsam, please, and a side order of jetsam."

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html


 
> Greetings:
> 
> A lot has been said about the slowness of editors responses and ethics. . .
> 
> Two years ago, I submitted work to a journal.  After about a year, when there 
> was no response, I withdrew the submission.  Recently, I received an 
> acceptance letter from the journal: "Sorry for the long delay--if these poems 
> are still available, I'd like to publish two of them in blank journal and 
> three of them in my "flagship" publication (which I did not submit to and had 
> never heard of)."
> 
> Before I could respond yes or no, I discovered that my poems had already been 
> included in the contributor copies of the journal that I received a week 
> after the so-called acceptance letter.
> 
> Another situation that has happened to me is that I'm sent letters from 
> editors, explaining that my poems are being considered or that they are 
> "strong possibilities" or that they "made the first cut."  Then, without 
> further notice or galley proofs, my work is published.
> 
> Mill
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


From moira_russell at hotmail.com  Thu Oct  4 12:24:38 2001
From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell)
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 08:24:38 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Editors and Ethics
Message-ID: <F7abYTHrdusluCBcKfE000052c0@hotmail.com>

>I just got some back from Poetry (form rejection)--about 8 months.  Sorry, 
>but I think multiple submissions are totally justified.  If you get a 
>double acceptance just refuse one of them.

I read an article which did the math once:  if you send out a poem/story and 
it's rejected within six months (conservative estimate, sometimes) and takes 
an average of, say, five-six tries to get accepted (again possibly 
conservative estimate) that works out to AT LEAST TWO YEARS to trying to get 
ONE piece accepted.  Unh-unh.  I've long thought the sort of accepted wisdom 
on the street is to send multiple submissions unless you're trying for 
contests.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA


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From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu Oct  4 12:22:06 2001
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 12:22:06 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Editors and Ethics
In-Reply-To: <6a.1468f520.28ede306@cs.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECENPECAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Or, better yet, accept both of them, especially if there's no
payment and no contract. Or you can sell first publication
rights to one, and second publication rights to the other.

Hal     "Between the manifold splendors of anger, I
           watch a door slam like the corsage of a flower
           or the erasers of schoolchildren."
                         --Andre Breton

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html

  I just got some back from Poetry (form rejection)--about 8 months.  Sorry,
but I think multiple submissions are totally justified.  If you get a double
acceptance just refuse one of them.
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu Oct  4 12:35:40 2001
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 12:35:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] In Favor of Silence
In-Reply-To: <118.58dfba7.28ec6f51@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMENPECAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Just another slant on silence, this paragraph from George
Steiner's essay "Silence and the Poet":

"Holderlin's silence has been read not as a negation of his poetry
but as, in some sense, its unfolding and its sovereign logic. The
gathering strength of stillness within and between the lines of the
poems have been felt as a primary element of their genius. As
empty space is so expressly a part of modern painting and
sculpture, as the silent intervals are so integral to a composition
of Webern, so the void places in Holderlin's poems, particularly
in the late fragments, seem indispensable to the completion of
the poetic act. His posthumous life in a shell of quiet, similar to
that of Nietzsche, stands for the word's surpassing of itself, for
its realization not in another medium but in that which is its
echoing antithesis and defining negation, silence."

Hal       "A sudden silence in the middle of a conversation
             suddenly brings us back to essentials: it reveals 
             how dearly we must pay for the invention of 
             speech."
                     --E. M. Cioran

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html

 


From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu Oct  4 14:56:21 2001
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 14:56:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] 9/11 account by teenager
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEOAECAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Here's a first-person account of 9/11 written by a 14-year-old freshman
at Stuyvesant High School here in NYC. It's in the current issue of
*The Villager*.


http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?BRD=1840&dept_id=133705&newsid=2444057&PAG=461&rfi=9

Hal          "Flotsam, please, and a side order of jetsam."

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html



From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com  Tue Oct  2 07:41:50 2001
From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (david.bircumshaw)
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2001 12:41:50 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw:      Masthead extra
Message-ID: <006e01c14b37$3ae8bbe0$8bf4a8c0@netserver>

(for'arded at the request of Alison Croggon)


David Bircumshaw

Leicester, England

A Chide's Alphabet
www.chidesplay.8m.com

Painting Without Numbers
www.paintstuff.20m.com/default.htm
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/default.htm
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alison Croggon" <acroggon at BIGPOND.COM>
To: <BRITISH-POETS at JISCMAIL.AC.UK>
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 11:17 AM
Subject: Masthead extra


> (Apologies for cross posting)
>
> A couple of tardy arrivals to the Masthead special issue - American
terror:
> writings in the immediate aftermath
>
> James Graham's hallucinatory evocation of NY post disaster, DELIRIUM
> TREMENS NY, plus more photos
>
> Indonesian journalist Goenawa Mohamed's experience of being in the city
> when the disaster happened, ONE DAY IN NEW YORK
>
> Rip Bulkley's poem VICE VERSA
>
> plus a much classier version of Anastasios Kozaitis's poem wtc11 -
>
> not to mention the rest - poems and prose from those near and far
>
> all available now at http://au/geocities.com/masthead_2/
>
> Best
>
> Alison
>
>
>
> Alison Croggon
>
> Home page
> http://users.bigpond.com/acroggon/
> Masthead
> http://au.geocities.com/masthead_2/
>



From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Oct  5 10:43:06 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 10:43:06 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] HIGHLY PRIZED MSS.
Message-ID: <2b.1c47d8a9.28ef20fa@aol.com>

In a message dated 10/3/01 4:28:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
moira_russell at hotmail.com writes:

>  think there are for kinds of presses:
>  
>  You forgot full court presses.
>  
Based in St. Louis MO there is the Garlic Press.
(Probably best classed as a micropress, rather than a small press).
Too bad no one has yet named a press using 
that classic  3 Stooges gag: Press Press Pull


From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com  Fri Oct  5 10:48:33 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 07:48:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] HIGHLY PRIZED MSS.
Message-ID: <20011005144833.D60FC36F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Oct  5 12:01:53 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2001 12:01:53 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] All Those Skinny Spined Books
Message-ID: <16f.1f29328.28ef3371@aol.com>

In a message dated 10/2/01 11:43:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
wasanthony at yahoo.com writes:

> Publication is publication, no matter if the press/printer is the
>  publisher or vice versa.  Publication is a notch on one's belt in po
>  biz, and contests seem to be the most likely way to be published.  But
>  being published is for naught if there are no good reviews. 
>  Publishers/presses ask one for a list of possible reviewers, so of
>  course one sends in the names and addresses of those most likely to
>  produce positive reviews - one takes one's chances with those review
>  copies sent without one's control, though most of those will most
>  likely go to magazines where some of the work in the book was
>  originally published.  Then there's promotion, usually shared by author
>  and publisher/press/printer.  Then there's the prestige of the prize,
>  the National Poetry Series having more prestige than Spotted Sow's
>  Annual Compeition, for example.  So it goes.   Time will tell.  Unless
>  one's book from Spotted Sow is shredded 18 months after publication.
>  
>  - Jim
>  
I understand Joe D's distinction between publisher & printer, but I want
to agree with Jim that getting the book out in the world is most important.
Literary history is full of many important books first printed (with or 
without 
subsidy from their authors) in very small and haphazardly distributed 
editions.
Also, I think it's no small matter if someone/entity "puts up the cost" of 
printing one's book...an act of foolish faith...even if he/she/it can afford 
to 
do little more in terms of marketing. 
Yes, it's  nice if you get the 1/4 & 1/2 page ads in APR and to have 
Consortium distribute the book to every Barnes & Noble in the country 
(most will come back to the publisher BTW)...but beyond few extra library 
sales (&  a boost to the poet's ego) I wonder what all that "marketing" 
really means in terms of whether the poems will be read...not to mention 
whether they'll matter in the long run.
Likewise with reviews...unless they appear in very high circulation 
journals...
I question whether you get more than a little bump in library sales. Most of 
those library books will languish in the stacks for a suitable period of 
years 
until they are stamped DISCARD & "de-acquisitioned." 
I'm not so down on university & literary publishing as Bob G, but I do think 
there much in the system (reviewing, awards, litmag editorship) that 
is more about mutual "credentialing" than it is about the art. 
When was it that university presses began to become the "first edition"
publishers of literary works? It seems to me their original mission was
to republish important texts that were no longer available in the 
"marketplace," and, of course, to publish studies of various literary 
texts/authors.
Finnegan
PS: I believe it's the big houses who are guilty of quick shredding/pulping...
the Spotted Sows of this world usually keep the books in print and in
the editor/publisher's basement/attic until the copies literally rot away.




From khodges at softhome.net  Fri Oct  5 19:14:34 2001
From: khodges at softhome.net (Kim Hodges)
Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2001 16:14:34 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] HIGHLY PRIZED MSS.
In-Reply-To: <20011005144833.D60FC36F9@sitemail.everyone.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011005161333.0263bec0@pop.softhome.net>

At 07:48 AM 10/5/01 -0700, Robert R.Cobb wrote:
>Then there is that all-purpose "Panic Button!"  When all else fails, 
>"Press Here!"
>
>Bob C.

I believe there is a Haiku-oriented press named Press Here.

                 - Kim



From MillB at aol.com  Sat Oct  6 11:28:38 2001
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 11:28:38 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Rejection~
Message-ID: <11c.5896600.28f07d26@aol.com>

Greetings:

Althought this article is not about poetry, but artists, I felt that I could 
be valid across many disciplines:  For more info, consult The NY Foundation 
for the arts web page at--http://www.nyfa.org/fyi/fyi_fall2001_pg7.htm

Cheers,

Mill

Fall 2001
Ask Dr. Art (Bonus Coverage)
Dr. Art on Burning Bridges
Matthew Deleget, Visual Artist Information Hotline

(In this column I discuss a letter of rejection NYFA received back from an 
applicant to the Artists? Fellowship Program. The applicant wrote "FUCK YOU" 
in large letters with a black marker across the rejection letter.)

When I first saw this letter, I was speechless. It is an arresting 
visual/verbal expression of utter frustration and thorough disappointment, 
and I am sure that the artist who wrote it is not the only one feeling this 
way. (This year, NYFA?s Artists? Fellowship program received 3,376 
applications in eight discipline categories, and awarded 158 grants, which 
means 3,218 artists did not receive a grant this year.) At one level, I found 
the letter irritating, but I also wondered to myself what would make an 
artist reach this point of combustion. In my imagination, I tried to retrace 
the steps this artist took in articulating such an angry response: receiving 
and opening the envelope with great anticipation; reading the letter; growing 
consumed with anger; grabbing a large black marker; writing commentary 
directly on the letter; stuffing it back in an envelope; and mailing it off.

On the one hand, I completely understand this artist?s sentiment. As a 
working artist myself, I have received dozens of rejection letters after 
applying to similar programs. I can honestly say from first-hand experience 
that there is definitely no worse feeling than receiving an SASE back in the 
mail and being able to feel my slides through the envelope. Who wouldn?t be 
upset by this? I have also felt myself reach the point where I could barely 
control my impulse to shred the rejection letter to pieces, or, even worse, 
to fire off a revengeful letter of my own back to the organization rejecting 
their rejection of me. However, thinking about something and actually doing 
it are two entirely different matters.

I feel that this artist clearly crossed a line into unprofessionalism. Being 
"creative" doesn?t justify acting unprofessionally. Letters like this one can 
and will burn bridges; they can even jeopardize a career trajectory. This 
letter, driven in part by a feeling of self-entitlement, is, in many ways, a 
classic case of biting the hand that feeds you. More importantly, its 
comments are not only directed at NYFA, but at the arts community as a whole: 
individual artists, arts professionals (arts administrators, curators, 
gallerists, and critics) and arts organizations (non-profits, private 
foundations, government arts agencies, and corporate sponsors). Supporting an 
individual artist takes an entire arts community, and running support 
programs always requires the participation of individuals working in each of 
these areas. To be sure, most arts organizations out there are not pleading 
with artists for assistance, but the opposite is almost always true. Thus, 
when an artist responds by saying "FUCK YOU" to a program?any program set up 
to assist individual artists?its repercussions can be severe and more 
widespread than initially realized. It?s important to remember that the art 
world is hardly a "world" at all; rather, it consists of a relatively small 
community of individuals. And these individuals are in constant communication 
with each other. It has been known to happen that problematic artists?meaning 
artists who are consistently difficult to work with?can and do get 
blacklisted. I have seen this occur to several artists I know, some of whom 
have even lost their gallery representation as a result. The message is 
clear: no one wants to work with an artist who is a constant hassle.

Now, on to some solutions. After speaking with literally thousands of artists 
from around the country who have called the Visual Artist Information 
Hotline, I have begun to see a very particular behavioral pattern surface 
among them. I have noticed that artists tend to place all their efforts into 
a single application (think eggs in a basket). It?s no wonder, then, that a 
rejection letter can set an artist into a tailspin. A single rejection should 
never be so upsetting that it causes an artist to lash out against her or his 
colleagues and the support mechanisms around her or him. Successful artists?I 
mean here those artists who are able to maintain a healthy career and state 
of mind?have no doubt developed a thick skin due to years of rejection. I?ve 
also noticed one thing that they all share in common. Successful artists are 
continually juggling many balls in the air at once. They are constantly 
sending out a steady stream of applications and proposals from their studios, 
applying and reapplying to each and every program every year they are 
eligible. It goes without saying that the more balls an artist has in the 
air, the less significant one ball becomes when it falls to the floor. 
Artists who consciously choose to juggle only one ball at a time are 
sentencing themselves to a lifetime of frustration and, most likely, failure.

Being an artist in the year 2001 requires much more than just making great 
work in an isolated studio. It also means branching out and applying to 
support programs and other opportunities, networking and sharing ideas with 
peers, and maintaining a professional approach. If not, to quote Jackie 
Battenfield of the Artist in the Marketplace Program at the Bronx Museum of 
the Arts, "You are not doing your job as an artist." Personally, I have 
discovered that the best way to exorcise the rejection demons is simple. 
Every time I receive my materials back in the mail accompanied by a rejection 
letter, I send them back out again to a new program or venue. Similarly, I 
recommend you have your materials in constant circulation. Slides sitting on 
a shelf in the studio are literally not going anywhere. Being an artist is a 
choice for life, so over the course of a lifetime, an artist is undoubtedly 
going to receive a lot of rejections. Remember to stay positive, be 
professional, and keep applying.



From JackKerouac25 at aol.com  Sat Oct  6 14:18:27 2001
From: JackKerouac25 at aol.com (JackKerouac25 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 14:18:27 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Rejection~
Message-ID: <10d.6b22816.28f0a4f3@aol.com>

I remember when I was responsible for the literary magazine at my university 
when I was in graduate school.  

Admittedly, I didn't know much about poetry then (I probably don't now, 
either, for that matter), so I probably rejected lots of poets who weren't 
used to getting rejected from such a small publication, which I'd prefer to 
remain nameless.

Once, after sending out a rejection, I received it back in the mail with a 
note scribbled at the bottom.  I don't remember the exact wording, but it 
said something along the lines of "You don't know jack squat about poetry.  
Rejecting my work is probably the worst career move you could ever make," or 
some such tripe.  

I felt bad for, oh I don't know, 10 minutes.  I've been rejected in just 
about every way imaginable, from magazines, women, humanity, and lots of 
other places.  Although I felt a lot like the cat who wrote "FUCK YOU" on the 
NYFA rejection letter, I've never done it.

I don't know...any of you guys ever done anything to this extreme?  Anyone 
ever written back to a magazine asking why you were rejected?  I haven't, but 
I did once submit to a journal with a cover letter that said, "Since you 
returned my last poems so quickly, I figured you might use these as examples 
of what you don't publish.  Send them out with your contributor's 
guidelines."  

And you know what?  They published the poems.

Well, must run.

The Newberry

Jeffrey L. Newberry
Adjunct Instructor
Department of English and Foreign Languages
University of West Florida
11000 University Parkway
Pensacola, FL  32514
850.474.2923
850.473.7330


From halvard at earthlink.net  Sat Oct  6 14:28:39 2001
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 14:28:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Rejection~
In-Reply-To: <10d.6b22816.28f0a4f3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEPAECAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Nice one, Jeffrey. Reminds me of the time I was wandering with some friends
along the Rio Grande in New Mexico and talking to the editor of a little
mag that had, several months before, rejected without comment a group of
poems I'd sent. When I mentioned that to her, she said, "Oh? Well, send
them again." I did, and the whole group was published. So it goes.

Hal          "Flotsam, please, and a side order of jetsam."

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html


> I remember when I was responsible for the literary magazine at my university 
> when I was in graduate school.  
> 
> Admittedly, I didn't know much about poetry then (I probably don't now, 
> either, for that matter), so I probably rejected lots of poets who weren't 
> used to getting rejected from such a small publication, which I'd prefer to 
> remain nameless.
> 
> Once, after sending out a rejection, I received it back in the mail with a 
> note scribbled at the bottom.  I don't remember the exact wording, but it 
> said something along the lines of "You don't know jack squat about poetry.  
> Rejecting my work is probably the worst career move you could ever make," or 
> some such tripe.  
> 
> I felt bad for, oh I don't know, 10 minutes.  I've been rejected in just 
> about every way imaginable, from magazines, women, humanity, and lots of 
> other places.  Although I felt a lot like the cat who wrote "FUCK YOU" on the 
> NYFA rejection letter, I've never done it.
> 
> I don't know...any of you guys ever done anything to this extreme?  Anyone 
> ever written back to a magazine asking why you were rejected?  I haven't, but 
> I did once submit to a journal with a cover letter that said, "Since you 
> returned my last poems so quickly, I figured you might use these as examples 
> of what you don't publish.  Send them out with your contributor's 
> guidelines."  
> 
> And you know what?  They published the poems.
> 
> Well, must run.
> 
> The Newberry
> 
> Jeffrey L. Newberry
> Adjunct Instructor
> Department of English and Foreign Languages
> University of West Florida
> 11000 University Parkway
> Pensacola, FL  32514
> 850.474.2923
> 850.473.7330
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


From duemer at clarkson.edu  Sat Oct  6 15:14:52 2001
From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 15:14:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Rejection~
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEPAECAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <000a01c14e9b$2d2ff6a0$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

I was once invited to submit some poems to a small magazine after the editor
had seen my work somewhere. I sent the poems along & after six months
received a form rejection letter. I scrawled a note on the bottom that was
somewhat more eloquent than "fuck you" & sent it back. The editor apologized
& asked if he could reprint a poem from a chapbook.


======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
======================







From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Sat Oct  6 15:24:06 2001
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 14:24:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Rejection~
Message-ID: <200110061921.f96JLoJ87697@mx15.mx.voyager.net>

I'm usually scrupulous about not double-submitting, but once I inadvertently
sent some poems to Poetry twice.  The second time, a couple were accepted.

David Graham
_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________

----------
>From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] On Rejection~
>Date: Sat, Oct 6, 2001, 1:28 PM
>

>Nice one, Jeffrey. Reminds me of the time I was wandering with some friends
>along the Rio Grande in New Mexico and talking to the editor of a little
>mag that had, several months before, rejected without comment a group of
>poems I'd sent. When I mentioned that to her, she said, "Oh? Well, send
>them again." I did, and the whole group was published. So it goes.
>
>Hal          "Flotsam, please, and a side order of jetsam."
>
>Halvard Johnson


From halvard at earthlink.net  Sat Oct  6 15:29:59 2001
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 15:29:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Rejection~
In-Reply-To: <200110061921.f96JLoJ87697@mx15.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEPBECAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

The thing is, David, that the second time you submit work
the fear of the new and unknown has subsided and been
replaced by a cozy sense of quasi-familiarity.

Hal       "A sudden silence in the middle of a conversation
             suddenly brings us back to essentials: it reveals 
             how dearly we must pay for the invention of 
             speech."
                     --E. M. Cioran

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html


> I'm usually scrupulous about not double-submitting, but once I inadvertently
> sent some poems to Poetry twice.  The second time, a couple were accepted.
> 
> David Graham
> _______________________
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> _______________________
> 
> ----------
> >From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
> >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] On Rejection~
> >Date: Sat, Oct 6, 2001, 1:28 PM
> >
> 
> >Nice one, Jeffrey. Reminds me of the time I was wandering with some friends
> >along the Rio Grande in New Mexico and talking to the editor of a little
> >mag that had, several months before, rejected without comment a group of
> >poems I'd sent. When I mentioned that to her, she said, "Oh? Well, send
> >them again." I did, and the whole group was published. So it goes.
> >
> >Hal          "Flotsam, please, and a side order of jetsam."
> >
> >Halvard Johnson
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Sat Oct  6 15:46:25 2001
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 14:46:25 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: On Rejection~
Message-ID: <200110061942.f96JgOe42969@mx3.mx.voyager.net>

Thanks, Hal--I'm savoring the very thought of David Graham, subversive poet!
_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________

----------
>From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] On Rejection~
>Date: Sat, Oct 6, 2001, 2:29 PM
>

>The thing is, David, that the second time you submit work
>the fear of the new and unknown has subsided and been
>replaced by a cozy sense of quasi-familiarity.
>
>Hal       


From MillB at aol.com  Sat Oct  6 16:19:04 2001
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 16:19:04 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Rejection~
Message-ID: <15d.21a18bd.28f0c138@aol.com>

Hal:

This happened to a friend of mine.  He'd sent out his book to a number of 
publishers who had turned it down cold.  For his second batch of submissions, 
he mistakenly sent to the same publisher--it was a name like Kansas City, 
Kansas and Kansas City MO. . .it was a silly, understandable mistake.  Same 
mss.  Exactly.

Well, it just so happens that THIS time, the publisher took his book (his 
first).  My friend did not have the heart to say anything until a year later 
at the publication party the editor was saying how the mss was vastly 
improved. . .from the first time he saw it. . .come to think of it, I do not 
know if he EVER told him the truth.

Mill


From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Sat Oct  6 17:19:47 2001
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 16:19:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: On Rejection~
Message-ID: <200110062115.f96LFI633025@mx13.mx.voyager.net>

Sorry to free associate, but this tale reminds me of one of my favorite
academic anecdotes.  A few years back the resident Freudian critic at my
college was rhapsodizing about a student theatrical production--how clever
it was, he maintained, for the director to have swords of two slightly
different lengths in one particular fight scene.  You can imagine the rest
of his interpretation.

As you can probably imagine what the director said to me, afterward:  "What
is he talking about?  The swords are exactly the same size!"

_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________

----------
>From: MillB at aol.com
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] On Rejection~
>Date: Sat, Oct 6, 2001, 3:19 PM
>

>Hal:
>
>This happened to a friend of mine.  He'd sent out his book to a number of 
>publishers who had turned it down cold.  For his second batch of submissions, 
>he mistakenly sent to the same publisher--it was a name like Kansas City, 
>Kansas and Kansas City MO. . .it was a silly, understandable mistake.  Same 
>mss.  Exactly.
>
>Well, it just so happens that THIS time, the publisher took his book (his 
>first).  My friend did not have the heart to say anything until a year later 
>at the publication party the editor was saying how the mss was vastly 
>improved. . .from the first time he saw it. . .come to think of it, I do not 
>know if he EVER told him the truth.
>
>Mill


From halvard at earthlink.net  Sat Oct  6 17:26:28 2001
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 17:26:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Rejection~
In-Reply-To: <15d.21a18bd.28f0c138@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEPDECAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

> Hal:
> 
> This happened to a friend of mine.  He'd sent out his book to a number of 
> publishers who had turned it down cold.  For his second batch of submissions, 
> he mistakenly sent to the same publisher--it was a name like Kansas City, 
> Kansas and Kansas City MO. . .it was a silly, understandable mistake.  Same 
> mss.  Exactly.
> 
> Well, it just so happens that THIS time, the publisher took his book (his 
> first).  My friend did not have the heart to say anything until a year later 
> at the publication party the editor was saying how the mss was vastly 
> improved. . .from the first time he saw it. . .come to think of it, I do not 
> know if he EVER told him the truth.
> 
> Mill

When actually it was the editor who had vastly improved, right?

I always remind students (and myself) that it's a mistake to assume
that rejection has anything to do with the quality and value of the
work submitted. There are far too many variables for that to be
true even most of the time: there's the time in the reading cycle the
work appears; there's the backlog of accepted work at the mag;
there's the state of mind of the editor/reader (my guess is that it
matters a lot whether the work is at the top or the bottom of the
pile); and there's just plain karma--the poems that slip behind the
couch and are never responded to, etc. etc. etc.

And on the writer's side there are variables too: poorly or well-
chosen targets, persistence, and, last but not least, ability. Persistence
is probably where I fall down, since I seem to send stuff out only when
the moon is blue.

Hal     "Between the manifold splendors of anger, I
           watch a door slam like the corsage of a flower
           or the erasers of schoolchildren."
                         --Andre Breton

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html


From halvard at earthlink.net  Sat Oct  6 17:26:31 2001
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 17:26:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: On Rejection~
In-Reply-To: <200110062115.f96LFI633025@mx13.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEPDECAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Ah, yes, the Freudian camp. Didn't Kafka have them down
right in that story of his "In the Penile Colony"?

Hal            "language--the Riviera of consciousness"
                                 --Bob Perelman

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html


> Sorry to free associate, but this tale reminds me of one of my favorite
> academic anecdotes.  A few years back the resident Freudian critic at my
> college was rhapsodizing about a student theatrical production--how clever
> it was, he maintained, for the director to have swords of two slightly
> different lengths in one particular fight scene.  You can imagine the rest
> of his interpretation.
> 
> As you can probably imagine what the director said to me, afterward:  "What
> is he talking about?  The swords are exactly the same size!"
> 
> _______________________
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> _______________________
> 
> ----------
> >From: MillB at aol.com
> >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] On Rejection~
> >Date: Sat, Oct 6, 2001, 3:19 PM
> >
> 
> >Hal:
> >
> >This happened to a friend of mine.  He'd sent out his book to a number of 
> >publishers who had turned it down cold.  For his second batch of submissions, 
> >he mistakenly sent to the same publisher--it was a name like Kansas City, 
> >Kansas and Kansas City MO. . .it was a silly, understandable mistake.  Same 
> >mss.  Exactly.
> >
> >Well, it just so happens that THIS time, the publisher took his book (his 
> >first).  My friend did not have the heart to say anything until a year later 
> >at the publication party the editor was saying how the mss was vastly 
> >improved. . .from the first time he saw it. . .come to think of it, I do not 
> >know if he EVER told him the truth.
> >
> >Mill
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


From MillB at aol.com  Sat Oct  6 18:21:51 2001
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 18:21:51 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Rejection~
Message-ID: <fe.d359b07.28f0ddff@aol.com>

In a message dated 10/6/01 2:34:36 PM Pacific Daylight Time, 
halvard at earthlink.net writes:

<< When actually it was the editor who had vastly improved, right? >>

Yes, good point.

M


From moira_russell at hotmail.com  Sat Oct  6 22:42:01 2001
From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 18:42:01 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Rejection~
Message-ID: <F147XvpFVjCRGryWtII0001e0ce@hotmail.com>

I once grew so frustrated trying to scope out the literary market I sent out 
a form letter along with my poetry.  It asked the editors, if they rejected 
the poems (haha), to please check one of two boxes:

1) We don't publish formal poetry.

2) Yes, we publish formal poetry, but yours is not any good.

The poems were returned with their usual lightning speed, and no editor ever 
checked off the boxes.  One part of me has immense sympathy for editors and 
all the unsolicited dreck they have to wade through (or make their 
underpaid/unpaid editorial assistants wade through) basically as an extreme 
labor of love, and another part of me wants to use their lower intestines to 
scry the future possibility of my getting extremely generous grants from the 
NEA.

I believe it was George Orwell who said that no writer should ever be hired 
as an editor -- it was too much like putting a former convict in charge of a 
prison.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

>I don't know...any of you guys ever done anything to this extreme?  Anyone
>ever written back to a magazine asking why you were rejected?

"We work in the dark--we do what we can--we give what we have. Our doubt is 
our passion, and our passion is our task. The rest is the madness of art." 
-- Henry James

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp



From moira_russell at hotmail.com  Sat Oct  6 22:46:23 2001
From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 18:46:23 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Rejection~
Message-ID: <F57kLgE0Kt12nLtWvJi0001e283@hotmail.com>

If I were the Literary Tyrant In Charge of Publishing Presses Large, Small, 
and Minuscule, I would make the act of sending "invitations to subscribe" 
along with form rejection letters immoral, illegal, and fattening.  I wonder 
if anyone ever has actually thought, "Well, heck, might as well" and 
actually filled out the form after being rejected.  One of the few notices 
of this kind I have ever seen which acknowledges the feelings of the writer 
began, "We realize you're not feeling particularly charitable towards us 
right now, but...."

The other thing I would do as official tyrannos would be to make absolutely 
everyone used the 1,000-year-old so-called Chinese Rejection Letter, which 
begs the contributor to forgive the editor for returning the submission, but 
if they published anything of such extremely high quality in their magazine, 
all other submissions would fall short and they would be forced to shut 
down.  I've never received it, but I've seen it in some books about writing.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

"We work in the dark--we do what we can--we give what we have. Our doubt is 
our passion, and our passion is our task. The rest is the madness of art." 
-- Henry James

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp



From moira_russell at hotmail.com  Sat Oct  6 22:49:42 2001
From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 18:49:42 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: On Rejection~
Message-ID: <F21bQ8JGM1SXZtWEaYT00009512@hotmail.com>

>Thanks, Hal--I'm savoring the very thought of David Graham, subversive 
>poet!

Aren't all poets subversive?  (cf. Shelley)

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

"We work in the dark--we do what we can--we give what we have. Our doubt is 
our passion, and our passion is our task. The rest is the madness of art." 
-- Henry James


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp



From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com  Sat Oct  6 23:09:51 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2001 20:09:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Rejection~
Message-ID: <20011007030951.5984A2756@sitemail.everyone.net>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20011006/ab4cd6f0/attachment.ksh>

From moira_russell at hotmail.com  Sat Oct  6 23:21:33 2001
From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell)
Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2001 19:21:33 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: On Rejection~
Message-ID: <F58GJZNuIkdg0MZMtjQ0001e0ca@hotmail.com>

>Ah, yes, the Freudian camp. Didn't Kafka have them down
>right in that story of his "In the Penile Colony"?

I believe a fine, ah, artistic film was made of that story -- in which one 
of our "members" may have participated.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

"We work in the dark--we do what we can--we give what we have. Our doubt is 
our passion, and our passion is our task. The rest is the madness of art." 
-- Henry James


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp



From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu  Sun Oct  7 12:22:15 2001
From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Prentiss, Amber)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 12:22:15 -0400 
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Rejection~
Message-ID: <E7C06C25D501D511BA9900508BB82AA90DE1B7@ness.agnesscott.edu>

I have, but I liked the mag and knew it had been in deep monetary trouble.
Plus, it was my first submission, and the guy even took the time to scrawl
'Sorry to say no' on it.

-Amber

-----Original Message-----
From: Moira Russell
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: 10/6/2001 10:46 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] On Rejection~

If I were the Literary Tyrant In Charge of Publishing Presses Large,
Small, 
and Minuscule, I would make the act of sending "invitations to
subscribe" 
along with form rejection letters immoral, illegal, and fattening.  I
wonder 
if anyone ever has actually thought, "Well, heck, might as well" and 
actually filled out the form after being rejected.  One of the few
notices 
of this kind I have ever seen which acknowledges the feelings of the
writer 
began, "We realize you're not feeling particularly charitable towards us

right now, but...."

The other thing I would do as official tyrannos would be to make
absolutely 
everyone used the 1,000-year-old so-called Chinese Rejection Letter,
which 
begs the contributor to forgive the editor for returning the submission,
but 
if they published anything of such extremely high quality in their
magazine, 
all other submissions would fall short and they would be forced to shut 
down.  I've never received it, but I've seen it in some books about
writing.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

"We work in the dark--we do what we can--we give what we have. Our doubt
is 
our passion, and our passion is our task. The rest is the madness of
art." 
-- Henry James

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_______________________________________________
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From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu  Sun Oct  7 12:24:13 2001
From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Prentiss, Amber)
Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2001 12:24:13 -0400 
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Rejection~
Message-ID: <E7C06C25D501D511BA9900508BB82AA90DE1B8@ness.agnesscott.edu>

 
Not like I still have the slightest what it means to apologize for saying
no. Still, it felt reasonably nice.

-Amber
-----Original Message-----
From: Prentiss, Amber
To: 'new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu '
Sent: 10/7/2001 12:22 PM
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] On Rejection~

I have, but I liked the mag and knew it had been in deep monetary
trouble.
Plus, it was my first submission, and the guy even took the time to
scrawl
'Sorry to say no' on it.

-Amber



From khodges at softhome.net  Mon Oct  8 02:40:12 2001
From: khodges at softhome.net (Kim Hodges)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 23:40:12 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Rejection~
In-Reply-To: <10d.6b22816.28f0a4f3@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011007233658.021bda90@pop.softhome.net>

At 02:18 PM 10/6/01 -0400, you wrote:
>I remember when I was responsible for the literary magazine at my university
>when I was in graduate school.
>
>Admittedly, I didn't know much about poetry then (I probably don't now,
>either, for that matter), so I probably rejected lots of poets who weren't
>used to getting rejected from such a small publication, which I'd prefer to
>remain nameless.
>
>Once, after sending out a rejection, I received it back in the mail with a
>note scribbled at the bottom.  I don't remember the exact wording, but it
>said something along the lines of "You don't know jack squat about poetry.
>Rejecting my work is probably the worst career move you could ever make," or
>some such tripe.

When I was acting as a publisher a number of years ago, one rejected
applicant threatened to come and beat us all up.  One of the advantages
of email -- they don't really know where you are!  In another case, the
rejected writer's girlfriend responded with a number of virulent letters
saying we didn't understand the sensitive nature of her boyfriend.  I've
always thought that was a fate worse than rejection -- having the girlfriend
step in.  Well, I guess one's mother would be even worse!

                         - Kim



From khodges at softhome.net  Mon Oct  8 02:45:41 2001
From: khodges at softhome.net (Kim Hodges)
Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2001 23:45:41 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Rejection~
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEPDECAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
References: <15d.21a18bd.28f0c138@aol.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011007234029.021a2e50@pop.softhome.net>

At 05:26 PM 10/6/01 -0400, you wrote:
> > Hal:
> >
> > This happened to a friend of mine.  He'd sent out his book to a number of
> > publishers who had turned it down cold.  For his second batch of 
> submissions,
> > he mistakenly sent to the same publisher--it was a name like Kansas City,
> > Kansas and Kansas City MO. . .it was a silly, understandable 
> mistake.  Same
> > mss.  Exactly.
> >
> > Well, it just so happens that THIS time, the publisher took his book (his
> > first).  My friend did not have the heart to say anything until a year 
> later
> > at the publication party the editor was saying how the mss was vastly
> > improved. . .from the first time he saw it. . .come to think of it, I 
> do not
> > know if he EVER told him the truth.
> >
> > Mill
>
>When actually it was the editor who had vastly improved, right?
>
>I always remind students (and myself) that it's a mistake to assume
>that rejection has anything to do with the quality and value of the
>work submitted. There are far too many variables for that to be
>true even most of the time: there's the time in the reading cycle the
>work appears; there's the backlog of accepted work at the mag;
>there's the state of mind of the editor/reader (my guess is that it
>matters a lot whether the work is at the top or the bottom of the
>pile); and there's just plain karma--the poems that slip behind the
>couch and are never responded to, etc. etc. etc.

Yes, and sometimes a publisher is looking for work that fits
with a theme or with other work that has already been
accepted.  So, good work may be rejected because there is
no room for it, or because it just doesn't fit in at that time.

>And on the writer's side there are variables too: poorly or well-
>chosen targets, persistence, and, last but not least, ability. Persistence
>is probably where I fall down, since I seem to send stuff out only when
>the moon is blue.
>
>Hal

Sorting through things, preparing a submission, seems like
way too much work.  More work than writing it in the first
place, actually!  By the time I make up my mind to send
something, having carefully thought about it for years and
saved things, the publication usually has folded.

                 - Kim




From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Oct  8 09:41:39 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 09:41:39 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] benefit readings for the WTC  Relief Fund
Message-ID: <115.5c9a011.28f30713@aol.com>

Dear Friends:

I am happy to announce two major poetry benefit readings for the WTC 
Relief Fund happening on Oct 17 in New York City and San Francisco 
featuring prominent poets, writers, film-makers, actors, and readings 
by NYFD Firefighters, NYPD Police Officers and grade-school children 
from NYC.  Some of the readers include Sharon Olds, Ric Burns, Rick 
Moody, Sgt. Edgar Rodriguez, Cornelius Eady, Richard Price, NYFD 
Anthony Castagna, Poet laureate of San Francisco Janice Mirikitani, 
and many others.  Many of the poems being read will be selected from 
the enormous public outpouring of poetry posted at New York City fire 
stations, Union Square, and numerous other memorial sites around the 
city.

Thank You,
Ram Devineni

Words To Comfort
Poetry Reading to Benefit the World Trade Center Relief Fund
Wednesday, October 17th 2001

The New School, Tishman Auditorium
66 West 12th St. (b/w 5th & 6th), 7-10 PM
$15 Suggested Donation, Checks Only Please

Readers Include:
MICHAEL T. YOUNG
EMANUEL XAVIER
UNIVERSES
MATTHEW TRIGIANI
EDWIN TORRES
ALHAJI PAPA SUSSO
SEKOU SUNDIATA
CHARLIE SMITH
JACKIE SHEELER
PRAGEETA SHARMA
SAPPHIRE
JOHN RODREGUEZ
Sgt. EDGAR RODRIGUEZ
VITTORIA REPETTO
RICHARD PRICE
ROBERT POLITO
GIANDOMENICO PICCO
WILLIE PERDOMO
ALIX OLSON
SHARON OLDS
D. NURSKE
MARY ELLEN MUZIO
MUMS DA SCHEMER
RICK MOODY
TRAVIS MONTEZ
SAMUEL MENASHE
ANDREW McCARTHY
MARIPOSA
ELIZABETH MACKLIN
FRANK LIMA
DAVID LEHMAN
MIKE LADD
BILL KUSHNER
LAWRENCE JOSEPH
JOYCE JONES
OSCAR HIJUELOS
BOB HOLMAN
DAVID HENDERSON
NICOLE HEFNER
SUHEIR HAMMAD
MARK HALL
JESSICA HAGEDORN
RACHEL HADAS
THE HACK POET
HATTIE GOSSETT
TERRY GELBER
DANIEL PALEY ELLISON
CORNELIUS EADY
LATASHA NATASHA DIGGS
GUILLERMO DIAZ
JOHN DEL PESCHIO
RAMONA CZERNECK
AILEEN CHO
STACEYANN CHIN
CAZWELL
ANTHONY CASTAGNA
REGIE CABICO
RIC BURNS
DANA BRYANT
GINA BONATI
ROGER BONAIR-AGARD
BONAFIDE
ANSELM BERRIGAN
CARLO BALDI
CHRISTIN APTOWICZ
KAZIM ALI
NANCY AGABIAN
JOANNE AKALAITIS
& many others

October 17, 2001 at the San Francisco Main Library
Poet laureate of San Francisco Janice Mirikitani, Kim Addonizio,
Chana Bloch, and Ruth Daigon.
[San Francisco Main Library, 100 Larkin Street, San Francisco at 6:00 
PM]

The World Trade Center Relief Fund was setup by NY Governor Pataki to 
assist the families and dependents of the victims of the September 
11th terrorist attacks.  All proceeds from the readings will be 
donated to the fund.

Presented by New School Writing Program, Pier Queen Productions, 
Rattapallax Press, Poets for Peace, Association of Hispanic Arts, 
People's Poetry Gathering, City Lore, Bowery Poetry Club, and 
Community Words Project.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
ConnecticutPoet-unsubscribe at egroups.com


From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Oct  8 10:43:10 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 10:43:10 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Rejection~
Message-ID: <9f.1c60bf9c.28f3157e@aol.com>

In a message dated 10/8/01 2:52:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
khodges at softhome.net writes:

<< When I was acting as a publisher a number of years ago, one rejected
 applicant threatened to come and beat us all up. >>

A long time back, while doing a stint as editor of a very little litmag,
I opened an envelope which contained only a newspaper clipping--
a back page article about an editor of some obscure litmag based
in Michigan who had been stabbed to death at his home...presumably
by a rejected author. That was creepy. 
BTW, at a bookstore recently, I was leafing through some of litmags
they stocked. I noticed Virgil Suarez (whose name came up here recently)
was among the contributors of every other magazine I handled. He's either 
a very hot property these days or he's trying to to beat Lyn Lifshin's record 
for small magazine appearances.
Finnegan  


From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Oct  8 15:41:18 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 15:41:18 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] In Favor of Silence
Message-ID: <161.2041cfb.28f35b5e@aol.com>

Another poet who turned to silence, and away 
from poetry, was Laura (Riding) Jackson. 
(I just picked up a copy of Chelsea #69...an issue 
devoted to her writings.) There are only 6 poems
that (Riding) Jackson is known to have written
after her renunciation of poetry writing. One thing
I hadn't realized was that during a large part of
her period of her poetic silence she was involved 
in "a new kind of English dictionary" project...
one that would "define words in meaning-relation
conjunctions, with the intention of showing that
there are no synonyms, that no word is exactly
like another in meaning." 

I've really just dipped into the issue...but here are 
a couple of sections:

"_You cannot say it all, in poetry._ Where you cannot
say it all, you are stinted irremediably in how seriously
you can speak. There is that something of lightness in
the poetic presentation of themes, be they of the uttermost
of inspiring seriousness. The verbal versatility that bejewels
the process of poem-making, by requisition, produces an 
almost continual close-sailing to the wind of word play.
The use of metaphor, its tempting relief to the mind so
often at a loss for the immediate right provision for the fixed,
patterned, poetic world-course, becomes a chronic virtue
of permitted caprice of statement."

(from "A Reading by Laura (Riding) Jackson 
for Recording by the Library of the U. of Florida")

"...I strained in the poems to make way for the ultimate subjects,
but one can't quite spiritualize oneself in poetry (1) and (2) one can't
quite spiritualize oneself anywhere without using all of oneself for
that end; and the gathering-in of oneself and the sheer conceiving
of that end are further things by far, far. And then there are the 
ultimate subjects, which, of course, cease to be 'just' subjects 
when one succeeds in making way for them."

(from "To a Critic & Poet, 1964-65")
--
I know that language poets, like Charles Bernstein,
have been interested in (Riding) Jackson. This strikes 
me as a little strange because it seems to me 
she would reject any writing that was without 
an almost religious faith in words.
Finnegan


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Mon Oct  8 15:50:29 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 15:50:29 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] In Favor of Silence
Message-ID: <16a.209e8c3.28f35d85@cs.com>

In a message dated 10/8/2001 2:43:07 PM Central Daylight Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes:


> I know that language poets, like Charles Bernstein,
> have been interested in (Riding) Jackson. This strikes 
> me as a little strange because it seems to me 
> she would reject any writing that was without 
> an almost religious faith in words.
> Finnegan
> 

From jdavis at panix.com  Mon Oct  8 16:01:06 2001
From: jdavis at panix.com (Jordan Davis)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 16:01:06 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] (Language) Jackson
In-Reply-To: <16a.209e8c3.28f35d85@cs.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.33.0110081558060.18662-100000@panix1.panix.com>

J for James,

Lucky us, coming late to the party.
The people we read need not
like us.

J for Jordan



From moira_russell at hotmail.com  Mon Oct  8 16:28:03 2001
From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 12:28:03 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] In Favor of Silence
Message-ID: <F43SEwNZKDZiBrOjFm6000001cb@hotmail.com>

>Another poet who turned to silence, and away
>from poetry, was Laura (Riding) Jackson.

One interesting biographical facet of her renunciation of poetry was it 
happened after her split with Graves (who was a much better poet than she 
was) and her taking-up with Schuyler Jackson (who was a much worse poet than 
anyone).  But Riding was certainly interested in dictionaries and getting 
the true meaning out of words she considered hackneyed and degraded through 
ill-use.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA



_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp



From wasanthony at yahoo.com  Mon Oct  8 16:50:24 2001
From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes)
Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2001 13:50:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] In Favor of Silence
In-Reply-To: <161.2041cfb.28f35b5e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20011008205024.71084.qmail@web12103.mail.yahoo.com>

Can Chelsea #69 be ordered online?

- Jim

--- JforJames at aol.com wrote:
> Another poet who turned to silence, and away 
> from poetry, was Laura (Riding) Jackson. 
> (I just picked up a copy of Chelsea #69...an issue 
> devoted to her writings.) There are only 6 poems
> that (Riding) Jackson is known to have written
> after her renunciation of poetry writing. One thing
> I hadn't realized was that during a large part of
> her period of her poetic silence she was involved 
> in "a new kind of English dictionary" project...
> one that would "define words in meaning-relation
> conjunctions, with the intention of showing that
> there are no synonyms, that no word is exactly
> like another in meaning." 
> 
> I've really just dipped into the issue...but here are 
> a couple of sections:
> 
> "_You cannot say it all, in poetry._ Where you cannot
> say it all, you are stinted irremediably in how seriously
> you can speak. There is that something of lightness in
> the poetic presentation of themes, be they of the uttermost
> of inspiring seriousness. The verbal versatility that bejewels
> the process of poem-making, by requisition, produces an 
> almost continual close-sailing to the wind of word play.
> The use of metaphor, its tempting relief to the mind so
> often at a loss for the immediate right provision for the fixed,
> patterned, poetic world-course, becomes a chronic virtue
> of permitted caprice of statement."
> 
> (from "A Reading by Laura (Riding) Jackson 
> for Recording by the Library of the U. of Florida")
> 
> "...I strained in the poems to make way for the ultimate subjects,
> but one can't quite spiritualize oneself in poetry (1) and (2) one
> can't
> quite spiritualize oneself anywhere without using all of oneself for
> that end; and the gathering-in of oneself and the sheer conceiving
> of that end are further things by far, far. And then there are the 
> ultimate subjects, which, of course, cease to be 'just' subjects 
> when one succeeds in making way for them."
> 
> (from "To a Critic & Poet, 1964-65")
> --
> I know that language poets, like Charles Bernstein,
> have been interested in (Riding) Jackson. This strikes 
> me as a little strange because it seems to me 
> she would reject any writing that was without 
> an almost religious faith in words.
> Finnegan
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
"Ripples" @ <http://www.poetserv.net>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

__________________________________________________
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NEW from Yahoo! GeoCities - quick and easy web site hosting, just $8.95/month.
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From Ralph.Wessman at forestrytas.com.au  Mon Oct  8 23:27:55 2001
From: Ralph.Wessman at forestrytas.com.au (Ralph Wessman)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 13:27:55 +1000
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Rejection
Message-ID: <sbc2fb70.091@FT-GATEWAY>

But Moira, what if you begin with faith
in the material in your minuscule
magazine; isn't a flier promoting it 
just a part of an effort to get the work to
a wider readership?

Ralph Wessman


>If I were the Literary Tyrant In Charge
>of Publishing Presses Large,
>Small,  and Minuscule, I would 
>make the act of sending "invitations to
>subscribe"  along with form rejection
>letters immoral, illegal, and fattening. 



From moira_russell at hotmail.com  Mon Oct  8 23:56:03 2001
From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell)
Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2001 19:56:03 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Rejection
Message-ID: <F137E8Pvs51YoDK7n0s00000b8b@hotmail.com>

>But Moira, what if you begin with faith
>in the material in your minuscule
>magazine; isn't a flier promoting it
>just a part of an effort to get the work to
>a wider readership?

It's the lack of context which bothers me.  Essentially, the publisher is 
using my SASE for a postage-free mailing.  That seems like adding insult to 
injury.  Yes, little literary magazines (and even not-so-little literary 
magazines) deserve subscriptions and support, but there's no way a writer 
can subscribe to all the magazines which deserve it, or even a tenth of 
them.  Also, I would imagine that someone submitting to a magazine has at 
least looked at the thing -- or should, anyway.  My admittedly humorous 
point was, What writer in the world is going to feel like subscribing to a 
magazine after yet another form letter rejection?  That just seems like 
misplaced marketing.  What writer at that point isn't going to recycle the 
flier?  How many poets have to go to the library to read journals they can't 
afford to subscribe to?  I would bet it is a fair number.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

"We work in the dark--we do what we can--we give what we have. Our doubt is 
our passion, and our passion is our task. The rest is the madness of art." 
-- Henry James





_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp



From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Oct  9 09:27:17 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 09:27:17 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] In Favor of Silence
Message-ID: <26.1c760c7f.28f45535@aol.com>

In a message dated 10/8/01 4:51:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
wasanthony at yahoo.com writes:

> Can Chelsea #69 be ordered online?
>  
I didn't see anything in the front matter that
indicated an online source....sorry.
Finnegan


From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Oct  9 09:36:39 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 09:36:39 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] In Favor of Silence
Message-ID: <105.a851008.28f45767@aol.com>

In a message dated 10/8/01 4:29:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
moira_russell at hotmail.com writes:

> Graves (who was a much better poet than she 
>  was) 
I don't think I'd take any bets on this....Graves seems to me
to be a very minor poet at this stage. Lots of his poems are little 
more than thematic ditties. While (Riding) Jackson's work,
abstract as it may be, difficult as it may be, will certainly be 
read & studied more and more. 
Finnegan


From GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU  Tue Oct  9 09:56:20 2001
From: GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU (Graham, David)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 08:56:20 -0500 
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: On Rejection
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDF73@mail.ripon.edu>

It's the writer's job to bitch about heartless, clueless editors, and it's
the editor's job to bitch about cheapskate & clueless writers (not you,
Moira!).  My least favorite rejection came from a certain nationally known
magazine to which I have been a subscriber since 1976.  When they rejected
me once, they stuffed so much promotional material into the SASE that it
came back postage due.  That did smart a bit.  I thought that they ought to
at least double-check their subscription list before they send hectoring
notes with their rejections about how writers fail to support the mags they
send to. . . .

Recently I subscribed to yet another nationally prominent mag, and received
in reply a note complaining that the library at the school where I work did
not have a subscription.  Yes, I knew that:  which was why I was subscribing
personally!  

Things is tough all over.  I do subscribe to a rotating list of journals,
myself--I think of it as my writer's tithe, even if I don't read them all
the way through, every issue.  

David Graham

===================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
===================

> ----------
> From: 	Moira Russell
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Monday, October 8, 2001 10:56 PM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] On Rejection
> 
> >But Moira, what if you begin with faith
> >in the material in your minuscule
> >magazine; isn't a flier promoting it
> >just a part of an effort to get the work to
> >a wider readership?
> 
> It's the lack of context which bothers me.  Essentially, the publisher is 
> using my SASE for a postage-free mailing.  That seems like adding insult
> to 
> injury.  Yes, little literary magazines (and even not-so-little literary 
> magazines) deserve subscriptions and support, but there's no way a writer 
> can subscribe to all the magazines which deserve it, or even a tenth of 
> them.  Also, I would imagine that someone submitting to a magazine has at 
> least looked at the thing -- or should, anyway.  My admittedly humorous 
> point was, What writer in the world is going to feel like subscribing to a
> 
> magazine after yet another form letter rejection?  That just seems like 
> misplaced marketing.  What writer at that point isn't going to recycle the
> 
> flier?  How many poets have to go to the library to read journals they
> can't 
> afford to subscribe to?  I would bet it is a fair number.
> 
> Moira Russell
> Seattle, WA
> 
> "We work in the dark--we do what we can--we give what we have. Our doubt
> is 
> our passion, and our passion is our task. The rest is the madness of art."
> 
> -- Henry James
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 


From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Oct  9 10:02:42 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 10:02:42 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Chelsea #69
Message-ID: <3a.1bebf780.28f45d82@aol.com>

In a message dated 10/9/01 9:28:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
JforJames at aol.com writes:

> > Can Chelsea #69 be ordered online?
>  >  
>  I didn't see anything in the front matter that
>  indicated an online source....sorry.
For those interested in the Laura (Riding) Jackson issue,
I should have mentioned the snail mail address--
CHELSEA 
PO Box 773, Cooper Station
New York, NY 10276-0773. 
1 yr subscription: $13 / 2 issues.


From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Oct  9 10:43:46 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 10:43:46 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rational Meaning
Message-ID: <118.5d46531.28f46722@aol.com>

Rational Meaning
A New Foundation for the Definition of Words 

Epigraph || Excerpt || Books || Homepage 
http://www.unc.edu/~ottotwo/LRJrational.html
--------------------------------------------------------------

  By Laura (Riding) Jackson and Schuyler B. Jackson
Edited by William Harmon
Introduction by Charles Bernstein

University Press of Virginia, 1997 
 
"The publication of Rational Meaning: A New Foundation for the Definition of 
Words brings to completion one of the most aesthetically and philosophically 
singular projects of twentieth-century American poetry. No North American or 
European poet of this century has created a body of work that reflects more 
deeply on the inherent conflicts between truth telling and the inevitable 
artifice of poetry than Laura (Riding) Jackson." --Charles Bernstein, from 
the introduction. 

Existing only in manuscript since the 1940s but enjoying an underground 
reputation among friends and advocates, this primary document by one of the 
most original and influential of American poets and thinkers is now being 
published as Rational Meaning , Laura (Riding) Jackson's testament of the 
necessity of living for truth. Begun as a dictionary and thesaurus in the 
1930s, the work developed into a fundamental reevaluation of language itself. 
Riding, in close collaboration with her husband, continued this monumental 
project over the succeeding decades, completing it after his death in 1968. 
The work, which she regarded as a "Magna Carta of the human mind," has 
heretofore been seen by only a handful of people. Yet the recent resurgence 
of interest in Laura Riding is nourishing the growth of scholarship and 
study, in which this culmination of a life's work will play its part as her 
true significance becomes more widely understood. 



------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

Epigraph
by Schuyler B. Jackson (1967)

Suppose that words do have meanings, meanings of their own. (Which is the 
reality.) What would the consequences be, if words were words only in having 
meanings peculiarly, inseparably, necessarily, theirs? (Which is the 
presupposition of language .)

If one used words as possessed of their meanings so thoroughly that they had 
no existence except as meaning what they meant, one would have to--in the use 
of them--mean what they meant, have in mind to express what they expressed. 
Otherwise, one would be, while seemingly at one with the sense of one's 
words, perpetrating a pretence with them, or, at best, putting oneself 
through an exercise in self-frustration.

But, do we not all mean the meanings of our words in using them--the 
pretenders, and those who say what they do not mean from some morbid 
inhibitedness, excepted? Do we not, with these exceptions, and allowance--of 
course--for accidental ignorance or misk nowledge in the case of a particular 
word here and there, always do this?

Do we not--on the whole, and almost always--mean our words? No, we do not. 
Our minds are only partly given over to our words. And the human world as we 
know it (disordered, distracted) is the result of our being, thus, only 
partly responsible occupants of it. What would that world be if we used words 
entirely as, by their meanings, they call on us to use them, is an unknown. 
The aim of this book is to suggest some of the difference, besides indicating 
ways of making the changes. 



------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--

Excerpt
by Laura (Riding) Jackson and Schuyler B. Jackson

To "know a word" is a familiar expression. The experience of knowing a word 
differs from that of knowing a fact. The thing known, in the case of a word, 
exists--once known--as a component of one's working mental equipment, as 
something with which one thin ks. A known word is one's own word. It is also 
a fixture of a common lore of rational distinctions of tried mental 
workability. The issue posed by the early linguisticians, that words are not 
things, was, in its new common-sense attractiveness, a factitio us issue. 
There is no issue as to words and things, from the linguistic point of view, 
except in regard to knowledge: the knowledge of a word is differently 
constituted from that of the knowledge of a thing.

The material that forms the knowledge of things consists of identifications 
of subjects of human consciousness. The material that forms the knowledge of 
words is of the order of consciousness itself: not mere identifications are 
involved, applications of consciousness, but consciousness self-organized for 
its control of its functioning as responsible intelligence. Language is this 
medium of control, is the apparatus of human intelligence. Lexicographers 
have charge of acquainting the speakers of a languag e with the greatly 
varied, ever consistently sustainable exercise of their intelligence of which 
their language renders them capable. Their task may be described as one of 
making the word-resources of language reliably available to the 
intelligence--or pr eserving to the human mind the accumulated evidence of 
its capabilities of intelligent functioning stored in language. 

Contrarily to the stress put on change in contemporary linguistics as a 
primary process in word-meaning, and, as such, a primary characteristic of 
language, it is the hold of permanence in the midst of change that most marks 
the general character of meani ng in language, and the general processes of 
rational coherence by which a language stands in readiness to serve the 
intelligence. The knowing of words is a condition of multiple awareness 
governed by self-awareness; and the unity of the two awarenesses r eflects 
the government of the variable by the invariable (which is, surely, the 
nature of ultimate law). Language is steeped in the fortitudes of permanence. 
It should be the purpose of lexicographers to make a direct linguistic 
approach to words; and the y cannot do this as historians of change. To do 
this, they must penetrate through the shifting to the persisting, and 
discover the features of rational order, the principles of relations, that 
make words into language and give a language its powers of end urance amidst 
the intricacies of vocabularistic amplification and variation attending 
linguistic growth. 

There is no categorical difference between defining a word and knowing what 
it means. To know what a word means one must have continuous presence in the 
field of diversified awareness covered by languages, and, with the help of 
this experience, locate (an d keep located) the meaning of the word in it. 
Located, the meaning is an immediately recognizable and definitely 
describable distinction. The ordinary knowing of a word and the 
lexicographical defining of it employ equally the human ability to apprehend 
the nature of human experience and comprehend the distinctions manifesting 
the kind of experience it is. The dictionary is, ideally, the organon of 
common human knowledge. One that answered to the ideal would be a much more 
simple work, humanly, than the dictionary of the existent sort is, and, also, 
a much more complex one, intellectually. To know words is to know the 
meanings of words. To know the meanings of words is to know words as 
language. Knowing or defining a single word involves knowing the lang uage of 
which it is a component. To know a language is to perceive the world as a 
human being. The knowledge of language domesticates the single mind to the 
world-sized, all-comprehensive human experience; it initiates the mind into a 
lore of rational dis tinctions of confirmed relevance to the experience of 
human beings in their relationship to one another as existing in common 
self-consciousness in the common field of existence called a world. 

The belief that the knowledge of language is the central human knowledge 
might meet with wide, vague acquiescence without meeting with specific 
agreement. This conception itself was not advanced with specific belief by 
anyone until Charles M. Doughty (of whom we tell in the early part of this 
book) made his call for something better than what passed for adequate 
knowledge of language represented language as being. Holding words to be 
precious essences of human perception, each distinct in meaning and comp 
etent as an expressive utterance, he viewed language as a communal treasure 
to be loyally cared for, and used with a reverent sense of its worth. In his 
plan for the redemption of the English language from the debased state to 
which he, in his Victorian t ime, believed it to have sunk, this reverent 
sense of the worth of languages was to be exercised by knowledge--the 
knowledge of words. He dedicated himself to revealing what he judged to be 
the real Mother-tongue, the early modern English languag e submerged in the 
later--to him a compound of ignorances of words. Language, as he phrased it, 
lay at the root of the mental life of human beings: the loyal member of a 
human community must be "a well-taught lover" of its language. 

The mode of common human knowledge varies from one site to another of human 
association formed round a sense of existence in a world: language 
varies--is, languages. Language is everywhere and in all times the general 
pattern of human knowledge, the way t he human mind deals with experience as 
a whole. However much languages vary in internal composition, they conform in 
their constitutional character: in every language, the rational distinctions 
that make individual words mean, and also make everything sai d in a language 
mean, are all relevant to the experience-span of human consciousness on a 
scale of entirety. 



From MillB at aol.com  Tue Oct  9 10:54:46 2001
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 10:54:46 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: On Rejection
Message-ID: <d8.d1f370b.28f469b6@aol.com>

David:

I had just logged on to write about the same thing that you did: my SASE 
returned postage due. This has happened to me many times.  It's also happened 
to me that when I was a subscriber to a journal, I received a chastizing 
note, telling me to support the magazines I submit work to. . .These "get my 
goat."

Two other things bother me:

1) When I state in my cover letter to recycle my submission if it isn't 
accepted, many times editors fold and fold and fold and jam my submission 
into my small reply envelope anyway.  Postage due.  I have to wonder~  if 
they didn't even take the time to read my three paragraph cover letter, did 
they read my work?

2) Maybe this is a visual thing. . .but why are most rejection notes half the 
size of index cards?  At times, I've even had trouble "finding" my puny 
rejection note among all that glossy, colorful, thick GIANT-sized promo 
material. 

Mill


From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu  Tue Oct  9 11:40:19 2001
From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Prentiss, Amber)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:40:19 -0400 
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: On Rejection
Message-ID: <E7C06C25D501D511BA9900508BB82AA90DE1BA@ness.agnesscott.edu>

I suppose that, since they save by using your envelope and your stamp, they
save even more by only using a quarter of a sheet of their copier paper.

-Amber

'It's not crazy; it's experimental.' - Dr. Tolliver

-----Original Message-----
From: MillB at aol.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: 10/9/2001 10:54 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: On Rejection

David:

I had just logged on to write about the same thing that you did: my SASE

returned postage due. This has happened to me many times.  It's also
happened 
to me that when I was a subscriber to a journal, I received a chastizing

note, telling me to support the magazines I submit work to. . .These
"get my 
goat."

Two other things bother me:

1) When I state in my cover letter to recycle my submission if it isn't 
accepted, many times editors fold and fold and fold and jam my
submission 
into my small reply envelope anyway.  Postage due.  I have to wonder~
if 
they didn't even take the time to read my three paragraph cover letter,
did 
they read my work?

2) Maybe this is a visual thing. . .but why are most rejection notes
half the 
size of index cards?  At times, I've even had trouble "finding" my puny 
rejection note among all that glossy, colorful, thick GIANT-sized promo 
material. 

Mill
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From moira_russell at hotmail.com  Tue Oct  9 11:41:30 2001
From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 07:41:30 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] In Favor of Silence
Message-ID: <F140fZKpn77J3vOLYeU0000197e@hotmail.com>

> > Graves (who was a much better poet than she
> >  was)
>I don't think I'd take any bets on this....Graves seems to me
>to be a very minor poet at this stage. Lots of his poems are little
>more than thematic ditties. While (Riding) Jackson's work,
>abstract as it may be, difficult as it may be, will certainly be
>read & studied more and more.

Chacun a son gout.  If you can understand Riding's work, you are welcome to 
it.


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From moira_russell at hotmail.com  Tue Oct  9 11:44:24 2001
From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 07:44:24 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: On Rejection
Message-ID: <F110sTmIClmpcQABZTW00021c6e@hotmail.com>

>Things is tough all over.  I do subscribe to a rotating list of journals, 
>myself--I think of it as my writer's tithe, even if I don't read them all 
>the way through, every issue.

This does seem like a good idea.  Alas, howevermuch I love "Granta," I just 
can't afford it, so to the library I go.  Maybe at some point there could be 
a communal pool of writers subscribing to various journals and passing them 
around, or something similar....

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA


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From moira_russell at hotmail.com  Tue Oct  9 11:46:13 2001
From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 07:46:13 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: On Rejection
Message-ID: <F82JQHeFXvjQN0hIQFB000018f0@hotmail.com>

>1) When I state in my cover letter to recycle my submission if it isn't
>accepted, many times editors fold and fold and fold and jam my submission 
>into my small reply envelope anyway.  Postage due.  I have to wonder~  if 
>they didn't even take the time to read my three paragraph cover letter, did 
>they read my work?

In less charitable moments, I imagine an unpaid intern sitting there with a 
huge pile of submissions, opening the envelopes, discarding them and 
immediately stuffing the contents into the SASE with a rejection letter.  In 
worse moments, I imagine an assembly line of such people.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA


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From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Tue Oct  9 12:03:58 2001
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 09:03:58 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] In Favor of Silence
References: <105.a851008.28f45767@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3BC31FEE.16D5AEE4@earthlink.net>

James--

The posts on Riding appreciated....

One thing I'd say is that for those who are interested in the Chelsea
number....
It's worth getting if you're really into Riding, but it is
"supplementary material" largely
---so maybe more worthwhile, especially to those newer to L(R)J would
be,
at least of the recently published stuff,
the new edition of Anarchism is Not Enough (her 1928 book) from U. Cal.
Press
ed. Lisa Samuels)
or the forthcoming issue of DELMAR magazine, edited by Jeff Hamilton in
St. Louis...
which will republish a long-out of print book (as in "chap") of
Riding's, "Though Gently,"
along with commentary by folks like Laura Mullen & myself...

As for the Lang.Po cooptation of Riding, yeah, tres strange....
I went to the L(R)J conference at Cornell a few year's back
and it was a weird scene....on one hand, a group of self-proclaimed
disciples
(mostly from Britain: John Nolan, Alan Clarke, etc.), kind of like
Riding
fundamentalists (yes, Riding does inspire fanatic devotion) and on the
other
those such as Bernstein (and his lackey Susan Schultz) and Watten, who
seem
to be interested in Riding precisely because they disagree with her, so
they can
"go beyond her." The latter group tends to prefer the earlier Riding;
the former group the later (post-'renunciation') stuff (as if that's the
real Riding; like saying the
Tempest is more the REAL Shakespeare just coz it was written later)
....What a reductive distinction, but largely true at that confernece at
least...
Luckily, there's some folks in the middle....

Chris S.

JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 10/8/01 4:29:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
> moira_russell at hotmail.com writes:
>
> > Graves (who was a much better poet than she
> >  was)
> I don't think I'd take any bets on this....Graves seems to me
> to be a very minor poet at this stage. Lots of his poems are little
> more than thematic ditties. While (Riding) Jackson's work,
> abstract as it may be, difficult as it may be, will certainly be
> read & studied more and more.
> Finnegan
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue Oct  9 12:18:46 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 12:18:46 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: On Rejection
Message-ID: <15d.23b7381.28f47d66@cs.com>

In a message dated 10/9/01 10:45:15 AM Central Daylight Time, 
moira_russell at hotmail.com writes:


> 
> >Things is tough all over.  I do subscribe to a rotating list of journals, 
> >myself--I think of it as my writer's tithe, even if I don't read them all 
> >the way through, every issue.
> 
> 

One thing I do is require a magazine subscription in my advanced poetry 
workshop.  Since we generally have no textbook in such a class, I think it's 
a good way of exposing students to current publications.  It also supports, 
in some small way, the magazines and may find them permanent subscribers in 
the future.  I've used Hudson, Tar River Poetry, Georgia Review, Poetry, and 
Shenandoah in the past.  Asking students to subscribe in less expensive than 
having them pay for the textbooks that are used in other classes.
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From languagethief at yahoo.com  Tue Oct  9 13:29:03 2001
From: languagethief at yahoo.com (The Old Mole)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 10:29:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: On Rejection
In-Reply-To: <15d.23b7381.28f47d66@cs.com>
Message-ID: <20011009172903.11044.qmail@web12203.mail.yahoo.com>

Can this work in a one-semester class?


--- Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:
> In a message dated 10/9/01 10:45:15 AM Central
> Daylight Time, 
> moira_russell at hotmail.com writes:
> 
> 
> > 
> > >Things is tough all over.  I do subscribe to a
> rotating list of journals, 
> > >myself--I think of it as my writer's tithe, even
> if I don't read them all 
> > >the way through, every issue.
> > 
> > 
> 
> One thing I do is require a magazine subscription in
> my advanced poetry 
> workshop.  Since we generally have no textbook in
> such a class, I think it's 
> a good way of exposing students to current
> publications.  It also supports, 
> in some small way, the magazines and may find them
> permanent subscribers in 
> the future.  I've used Hudson, Tar River Poetry,
> Georgia Review, Poetry, and 
> Shenandoah in the past.  Asking students to
> subscribe in less expensive than 
> having them pay for the textbooks that are used in
> other classes.
> 


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From antrobin at clipper.net  Tue Oct  9 13:41:00 2001
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 10:41:00 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: On Rejection
References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDF73@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <00a101c150eb$1a0bc480$9faeefd8@0021936706>

I've been lurking on the rejection thread and thought I'd toss in my few
sheckels.

My favorite rejection came about three years ago--I believe it was only my
2nd or 3rd submission anywhere.  Anyway, I'd heard that Howard Junker
(ZYZZVA) is famously cantankerous (this is of course a euphemism) so I sent
him a submission, expecting a stock rejection slip.  In two weeks time, I
received a reply saying something to the effect of: "Congratulations on
[poem sequence].  I admire your ambition.  Please keep me in your loop."

Heartened, I fired off another submission a couple months later.   The reply
from Junker: "Not quite my type of poem, but please send me your next
masterpiece."

Heartened again, I fired off a few slighter, smaller poems.  Nothing. Form
letter.

A few submissions later, he still declined to publish any poems, but my
cover letter made the back page.

Things IS tough all over, but I feel like I need to do the writer's tithe
thing myself. I subscribe to about a half dozen journals at any given time,
even some that consistently disappoint (Poetry, lately).

Being on the other side of things has given me some perspective.  Since
January, I've been an associate poetry editor for a nationally distributed
journal, and it's rough.  I try not to read more than ten submissions at one
sitting, and I give each submission a careful reading.  Problem is, 90% of
what I get is either really bad or simply not right for the magazine.  I try
to encourage the latter, but at the same time, I don't want to have to read
the next batch of not-quite-right work from the same poet.  A good deal of
the poems I reject, I reject because even though I may like parts of the
poem, or even the whole poem, I know my fellow editors will not get behind
it (aesthetic differences, primarily).

Finally, occasionally, a rejected poet will send the same poem back
unchanged a few weeks or months later, and on at least one occasion, we've
re-evaluated and accepted the poem.  So...yes, it's a fickle business, but
it also makes the sting of rejection a little easier, esp. when I receive a
kind note, hand-written or typed rather than a simple form letter.

Tony

__________________
"The assumption that a poem must always have the concept of a speaking voice
narrating its feeling--well that seemed and still seems an awfully narrow
mandate for verbal art."
Charles Bernstein

"You can't handle the truth. No truth-handler you.  I deride your
truth-handling abilities!"
Sideshow Bob Terwilliger



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue Oct  9 15:03:25 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 15:03:25 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: On Rejection
Message-ID: <be.1be1e076.28f4a3fd@cs.com>

In a message dated 10/9/01 12:30:35 PM Central Daylight Time, 
languagethief at yahoo.com writes:


> Can this work in a one-semester class?
> 

If you order the current issue as the beginning of the subscription, you can 
usually get two issues of a quarterly in one semester.  Or order Poetry and 
get five or so.
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue Oct  9 15:08:02 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 15:08:02 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] In Favor of Silence
Message-ID: <16d.2170f6a.28f4a512@cs.com>

I once sent some poems to Richard Howard at Shenandoah.  I got back a nice 
note, calling one poem "impressive," requesting a few small changes (good 
suggestions too), and asking me to resubmit it.  I did as he asked and 
shortly thereafter received a form rejection letter.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Oct  9 15:26:54 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 15:26:54 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] In Favor of Silence
Message-ID: <45.d16ec7d.28f4a97e@aol.com>

Chris,
Thanks for your (Riding) Jackson suggestions. I'll have to
get that issue of Delmar when it comes out. I lived near the Delmar Loop 
in St. Louis for a number of years...I imagine that magazine 
was founded thereabouts. 
In Chelsea #69 an earlier issue, Chelsea #35 ('76), is mentioned as another
source of L(R)J material. But I'm sure that would not be easy to
track down other than by visiting a library with a good-sized special 
collection
of literary magazines.
Finnegan


From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Oct  9 15:46:55 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 15:46:55 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: On Rejection
Message-ID: <27.1c4256f9.28f4ae2f@aol.com>

One little paradox on this subject comes to mind.
While most acceptance letters are fairly cursory
("Thanks for sending 'This Poem.' We'll print it in our upcoming issue."),
every so often you can get a treasure of a rejection letter
that goes into great detail about various aspects of one
of your poems. (Alas, these are rare.)
Finnegan


From moira_russell at hotmail.com  Tue Oct  9 15:48:01 2001
From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 11:48:01 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] In Favor of Silence
Message-ID: <F11oY99EXxt5BBBVhye00002194@hotmail.com>

>I once sent some poems to Richard Howard at Shenandoah.  I got back a nice 
>note, calling one poem "impressive," requesting a few small changes (good 
>suggestions too), and asking me to resubmit it.  I did as he asked and 
>shortly thereafter received a form rejection letter.

This reminds me of a story told in "Writing past dark" -- the author got a 
phone acceptance from the NYTimes for an essay, but then received a form 
rejection letter.  She called the editor just to make sure -- "Oh god!  that 
intern!  send it back right away!"  So she wrote "HA! HA! HA! HA!" all 
around the edges of the rejection slip in bright pink marker and taped it 
up.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA


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From matrix.net at ukonline.co.uk  Tue Oct  9 16:12:39 2001
From: matrix.net at ukonline.co.uk (matrix.net at ukonline.co.uk)
Date: 9 Oct 2001 15:12:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Writers Wanted
Message-ID: <OUT-3BC313E7.MD-1.4.4.matrix.net@ukonline.co.uk>

Matrix is currently looking for contibutors for its forthcoming and
future issues.

Matrix is a `little review' in the classic mould, seeking to provide a
platform for as diverse a range of literary output as possible.

Writers of poetry, short-stories, literary essays and reviews should
send a sample of their work (preferably in plain-text format) to:
matrix.net at ukonline.co.uk


From duemer at clarkson.edu  Tue Oct  9 18:01:21 2001
From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 18:01:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: On Rejection
References: <27.1c4256f9.28f4ae2f@aol.com>
Message-ID: <005701c1510d$ef760b40$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

As the poetry editor of The Wallace Stevens Journal, I am in the enviable
position of having few enough submissions (about 500 a year; everything has
to have some relation to WS, however slight). With the exception of one time
returning from sabbatical to a huge pile of manuscripts, I have never used a
form rejection letter in 11 years on the job. I always write a sentence or
two, though with the worst stuff it is often the standard "sorry to say no"
or some variation. (Why am I sorry? Sorry to disappoint, I think.) In many
cases I wind up accepting work from poets who I have sent earlier
rejections.

Now, before everybody sends me their poems, remember two things: 1) It has
to have some connection to WS; 2) if you knew how many parodies of "Thirteen
Ways of Looking at a Blackbird" I have read . . . well, don't even THINK
about it.

jd
======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
======================







From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu  Tue Oct  9 18:22:58 2001
From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Prentiss, Amber)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 18:22:58 -0400 
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: On Rejection
Message-ID: <E7C06C25D501D511BA9900508BB82AA90DE1BB@ness.agnesscott.edu>

This whole process seems to have been elegantly designed to create hours of
frustration for both editors and writers. Why does anyone bother?

-Amber


From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Oct  9 18:45:14 2001
From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 18:45:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Roger Mitchell
References: <OUT-3BC313E7.MD-1.4.4.matrix.net@ukonline.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3BC37DFA.74B3@nut-n-but.net>

A new book, sAvAge bAggAge, by Roger Mitchell, is out, and I'm slated
to review it for American Book Review.  I hardly ever do any research
on a poet I review, just have at his book.  But I did do an Internet
search for Mitchell, because I didn't know him or his work at all.
Found nothing but a very short text concerned with his teaching.
So I thought I might experiment with using new-poetry as a resource.
Anyone have any info on, opinions of, Mitchell?

I've read, and actually liked, his understated collection, by the way,
and know pretty much what I'll say about it, which won't be very
insightful, but I'll quote his poems.  He seems influenced by 
Stevens but tilting toward the personal touch of Frost.  His
attitude toward existence seems to count much more to him than
his craft, though he is conscientious and sometimes inventive in,
yes, what is but what I won't call in my review, the Iowa School
vein.  I expect to think a lot more about his book, though, before
writing my review, so my impressions could change.

                                                   --Bob G.



From thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com  Tue Oct  9 20:19:13 2001
From: thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com (bob cooper)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 00:19:13 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: On Rejection
Message-ID: <F11R00qObqg2NL5JAR600001ae9@hotmail.com>

Hi,
I never thought these posts would keep appearing.
But I also had no idea such things could be taken so personally! I mean all 
I thought I had to do, if/when my poems were returned, was bung em in 
another envelope and keep a record of what?s been where.
And I?m glad some editors are answering back. The information they send out, 
and I often read, keeps me aware of other magazines, competitions, and 
events. Though I haven?t yet had to heart to tell any of them that their 
rejection slips make ideal book marks ? which is a fine place for them to 
end up - but, sometimes (sadly) they only end up getting used for shopping 
lists. Some of the best people I go to the pub with edit magazines... they 
do it for love, they know they don't always get it right too. I don't envy 
them their role, their responsibility, their hangovers when they've finally 
got the next edition together and they've had the fun night, with the 
bottles and cans, putting their magazines into envelopes.
And someone?s said they wrote THREE paragraphs in their accompanying letter! 
Wow! I rarely manage three sentences in mine. I sense they want to read my 
letter as much as I want to read their return slips. And if I can tell they 
haven?t bothered to even riffle the papers before returning them I merely 
think I got my timing wrong and try them at some other time of year. Give 
them every chance y can to see yr work. That?s the business isn?t it?
Bob




>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp



From duemer at clarkson.edu  Tue Oct  9 21:05:09 2001
From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 21:05:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: On Rejection: cover letters
References: <F11R00qObqg2NL5JAR600001ae9@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <008d01c15127$9b7205c0$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

As an editor, I like brief cover letters that let me know a little about the
poet, including previous publications. What I don't like & don't read are
letters that offer an extensive interpretation of the submitted poems.
Presumably, I got to be an editor because I can perform that function for
myself.

As a poet, I like Bob Cooper's attitude & in my more placid moments when the
Buddhism is kicking in strong, I can manage his equanimity. I also subscribe
to a rotating list of magazines & will list my favorites here in the hope
that others will do the same. The list has a strong American bias. I also
read several on-line mags, notably Blue Moon Review & Jacket (from
Australia) & others on occasion. I also read Van Nghe (Literary Arts) when
my friends in Vietnam manage to send it to me or I am in the country & can
get it for myself. Because I'm an editor & teacher lots of people send me
their magazines, mostly produced at small colleges. I leaf through these,
but don't have time to do them justice--I keep a pile of them in my office &
give them away to students. Anyway, here's the list of actual subscriptions:

Field
Combo (Michael, am I still paid up?)
American Poetry Review
The Georgia Review
5AM
The Iowa Review
Stand (UK)

Full disclosure: All of these magazines except Combo have at one time or
another published my work. Why not dance with the one that brung ya?

jd

======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
======================







From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Oct  9 22:05:47 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 22:05:47 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Senghor
Message-ID: <139.2d3e44d.28f506fb@aol.com>

Date:    Tue, 9 Oct 2001 11:20:16 -0400
From:    Pierre Joris <joris at ALBANY.EDU>
Subject: Senghor

Happy 95th Birthday, L?opold S?dar Senghor!

Here's a poem of his (borrowed from _Poems for the Millennium, vol 1_):

MAN AND  BEAST

(for three tabalas or war drums)

I name you Evening, O ambiguous Evening, you fluttering leaf.
This is the hour of our most primal fears, raised from ancestral bowels.
Get back stupid faces of shadows, blowing evil from your snout!
Get back in the name of palm and water,
In the name of the Teller-of-deepest-secrets!
But the Beast is formless in the fertile mud nourishing
Tsetse flies and gnats, toads and snakes,
Poisonous spiders and spiked lizards.

What sudden clash without sparks of flint! What shock
And not a glimmer of passion.
The huge Man's feet skate upon the slime, where his strength
Sinks knee-deep, bound by leaves of poisonous plants.
His thoughts float into the mist.
Silent battle with no sparks of flint, to the rhythm
Of the stretched drum of his breast and the lone rhythm
Of the tom-tom beaten by the sinister Grand-Rayee drum.
Sorcerer who will announce the victor!

Claws streak his back with lightning and from raging clouds
The whirlwind skims his loins and smooths the grass at his sex
The mahogany trees shudder down to their painful roots,
But the Man plunges his lightning spear into the late moonglowing
Entrails. The golden brow harnesses the clouds
Where icy eagles soar, and thoughts circle his brow
His cardinal eye is the serpent's head.

The struggle in the darkness goes on too long!
Three ages of one thousandfold night.
The strength of the Man, his feet heavy in the fertile swamp.
The strength of the Man, the reeds hampering his effort.
His warmth the warm primeval entrails,
The strength of the Man's inebriation is the hot wine of the Beast's
Blood and the froth bubbling in his heart
Ha! more millet beer for the Initiate!

A long comet cry streaks across the night, a great noise
Sounds from a judicious voice. And the Man floors the Beast,
Talking in tongues of the danced song.
He floors him with a great burst of laughter in a gleaming
Dance danced under the rainbow of seven vowels.
Hail to the Rising Sun Lion whose look can kill
Hail to the Tamer of the bush, You, Mbarodi!
Lord over mindless forces.

And the lake blooms with water lilies, dawn of divine laughter.

Translation from the French by Melvin Dixon


________________________________________________________________
Pierre Joris            Just out from Wesleyan UP:
6 Madison Place
Albany NY 12202                 POASIS: Selected Poems 1986-1999
Tel:  (518) 426-0433
Fax: (518) 426-3722     go to: http://www.albany.edu/~joris/poasis.htm
Email: joris@ albany.edu
Url: <http://www.albany.edu/~joris>
____________________________________________________________________________

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From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Tue Oct  9 22:16:14 2001
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 21:16:14 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Mags
Message-ID: <200110100215.f9A2FoC65552@mx9.mx.voyager.net>

My current subscriptions:

Field
Georgia Review
American Poetry Review  (why, I often wonder?)
Parnassus  
Brilliant Corners (a wonderful jazz/literature mag)
Northwest Review

Other journals I either visit in the periodical room or buy single copies
from time to time--quite a long list.  And I do rotate my active
subscriptions on a whimsical basis.  Laurel Review is one I just now realize
I need to re-subscribe to.

Speaking of online mags, I also like to visit Jacket and Blue Moon Review. 
Plus Cortland Review, Valparaiso Poetry Review, Atlantic Monthly Poetry
Pages, ForPoetry, and quite a few more.

Here I'll stick in another plug for my web site that lists such things as
online journals, and all sorts of other poetry links: 


http://www.ripon.edu/Faculty/GrahamD/PoetryLib.html


_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________

----------
>From: "Joseph Duemer" <duemer at clarkson.edu>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: On Rejection: cover letters
>Date: Tue, Oct 9, 2001, 8:05 PM
>

>As an editor, I like brief cover letters that let me know a little about the
>poet, including previous publications. What I don't like & don't read are
>letters that offer an extensive interpretation of the submitted poems.
>Presumably, I got to be an editor because I can perform that function for
>myself.
>
>As a poet, I like Bob Cooper's attitude & in my more placid moments when the
>Buddhism is kicking in strong, I can manage his equanimity. I also subscribe
>to a rotating list of magazines & will list my favorites here in the hope
>that others will do the same. The list has a strong American bias. I also
>read several on-line mags, notably Blue Moon Review & Jacket (from
>Australia) & others on occasion. I also read Van Nghe (Literary Arts) when
>my friends in Vietnam manage to send it to me or I am in the country & can
>get it for myself. Because I'm an editor & teacher lots of people send me
>their magazines, mostly produced at small colleges. I leaf through these,
>but don't have time to do them justice--I keep a pile of them in my office &
>give them away to students. Anyway, here's the list of actual subscriptions:
>
>Field
>Combo (Michael, am I still paid up?)
>American Poetry Review
>The Georgia Review
>5AM
>The Iowa Review
>Stand (UK)
>
>Full disclosure: All of these magazines except Combo have at one time or
>another published my work. Why not dance with the one that brung ya?
>
>jd
>



From duemer at clarkson.edu  Tue Oct  9 22:24:14 2001
From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 22:24:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Mags
References: <200110100215.f9A2FoC65552@mx9.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <009e01c15132$ab218580$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

David Graham writes:
<<American Poetry Review  (why, I often wonder?)>>

Must be because I keep getting published there. I mean, last issue & this
forthcoming one. Seriously, when I was a young poet I didn't want to have my
face on the cover of Rolling Stone--I wanted APR! But, David, again
seriously, don't you think Tony Hoagland's recent essays interesting &
valuable, even if pretty mainstream? What is it about APR that pisses people
off so much?

jd
======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
======================







From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Tue Oct  9 22:50:15 2001
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Tue, 09 Oct 2001 21:50:15 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Poetry Mags
Message-ID: <200110100252.f9A2qbo93285@mx1.mx.voyager.net>

Good question.   I agree about Hoagland's essays, and "mainstream" has never
been a scare word for me.  And that Duemer fellow has a really nice one on
the back cover of the Sept/Oct. issue, which I recommend for that reason
alone (not even *mentioning* the small but attractive ad on page 32 for my
most recent chapbook. . . .)

Well, I've subscribed to APR for decades, come to think, and I must say that
I've always tended to go more for the prose, the translations, and the
po-biz than for much of the poetry.  But, just as The New Yorker publishes
some great stuff from time to time, so too APR, and probably more
frequently.  On the other hand, I *have* thrown it in disgust across the
room more than any other leading journal.  Somebody once said that's the
price you pay for editing by committee, but I don't know much about their
inner workings.

As for what pisses people off, a lot of it probably is just sour grapes and
pot-shooting at the fattest target.  I mean, it's the highest subscription
mag around, so it must be bad, right?  And those glamor-puss photos that
they love to run don't help the old image much.  

But more power to them, really.  I've published some prose there, but never
a poem, and I long ago stopped sending.  So no doubt some sour grapes here,
too.  . .

_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________

----------
>From: "Joseph Duemer" <duemer at clarkson.edu>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry Mags
>Date: Tue, Oct 9, 2001, 9:24 PM
>

>David Graham writes:
><<American Poetry Review  (why, I often wonder?)>>
>
>Must be because I keep getting published there. I mean, last issue & this
>forthcoming one. Seriously, when I was a young poet I didn't want to have my
>face on the cover of Rolling Stone--I wanted APR! But, David, again
>seriously, don't you think Tony Hoagland's recent essays interesting &
>valuable, even if pretty mainstream? What is it about APR that pisses people
>off so much?
>
>jd
>======================
>Joseph Duemer
>School of Liberal Arts, 5750
>Clarkson University
>Potsdam NY 13699
>315.268.3967
>======================
>


From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Oct  9 23:06:31 2001
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 23:06:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Poetry Mags
In-Reply-To: <200110100252.f9A2qbo93285@mx1.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEECNEDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

> Well, I've subscribed to APR for decades, come to think, and I must say that
> I've always tended to go more for the prose, the translations, and the
> po-biz than for much of the poetry.  But, just as The New Yorker publishes
> some great stuff from time to time, so too APR, and probably more
> frequently.  On the other hand, I *have* thrown it in disgust across the
> room more than any other leading journal.  Somebody once said that's the
> price you pay for editing by committee, but I don't know much about their
> inner workings.
> 
> As for what pisses people off, a lot of it probably is just sour grapes and
> pot-shooting at the fattest target.  I mean, it's the highest subscription
> mag around, so it must be bad, right?  And those glamor-puss photos that
> they love to run don't help the old image much.  

I remember subscribing to APR from time to time way back when, and I
share David's distaste for the photos and too much of the poetry and prose,
and I don't cotton much to tabloid-style publications that seem to yearn to
be laid at the bottom of the cat box.

I don't subscribe to as many mags as I once did, preferring in recent years
to buy single issues when they strike my fancy. Recent fancies? Well, among
them are *Fence*, *Tin House*, *New American Writing*, *Conjunctions*,
*Parnassus*. Not subscribing to any of those now. No plans to yet either.

Hal            "language--the Riviera of consciousness"
                                 --Bob Perelman

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html



From khodges at softhome.net  Wed Oct 10 03:34:23 2001
From: khodges at softhome.net (Kim Hodges)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 00:34:23 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Poetry Mags
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEECNEDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
References: <200110100252.f9A2qbo93285@mx1.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011010001002.00aa3bf0@pop.softhome.net>

At 11:06 PM 10/9/01 -0400, you wrote:

>I remember subscribing to APR from time to time way back when, and I
>share David's distaste for the photos and too much of the poetry and prose,
>and I don't cotton much to tabloid-style publications that seem to yearn to
>be laid at the bottom of the cat box.
>
>I don't subscribe to as many mags as I once did, preferring in recent years
>to buy single issues when they strike my fancy. Recent fancies? Well, among
>them are *Fence*, *Tin House*, *New American Writing*, *Conjunctions*,
>*Parnassus*. Not subscribing to any of those now. No plans to yet either.
>
>Hal            "language--the Riviera of consciousness"
>                                  --Bob Perelman

I used to read APR a lot, which I would find lying around free
in certain bookstores.  That makes me sort of a scavenger fan.
I enjoyed the critiques at the time, whether or not I agreed with
them.  They became the cause of an avid search for one poetry
book: a Chase Twitchell book (Perdido) which was quite panned.
But in the panning, the little bits of quotes were intriguing,
and came off a good deal better than the Kinnell extractions
given as a superior contrast.   For a number of years I looked
for it, until it showed up recently at both a local library and
bookstore.   The positive results of a bad opinion, as we are so
often told!

                 - Kim



From adead_poet at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 10 04:24:14 2001
From: adead_poet at hotmail.com (dead poet)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 03:24:14 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: On Rejection
Message-ID: <F176TNKnPgmlrkpELi100002122@hotmail.com>

actually it works wonderfully. last year we got two issues of tar river 
(they sent an extra issue because of the group of us), and we've gotten our 
first issue of hudson this year. plus, we've got at least one year's work of 
contemporary work coming, and since it is required for class, you can't put 
off your subsciption. i think it's a great idea.

jason

>From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: On Rejection
>Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 15:03:25 EDT
>
>In a message dated 10/9/01 12:30:35 PM Central Daylight Time,
>languagethief at yahoo.com writes:
>
>
> > Can this work in a one-semester class?
> >
>
>If you order the current issue as the beginning of the subscription, you 
>can
>usually get two issues of a quarterly in one semester.  Or order Poetry and
>get five or so.


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp



From adead_poet at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 10 05:10:38 2001
From: adead_poet at hotmail.com (dead poet)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 04:10:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] first time
Message-ID: <F1671Ty9CMdZpDsiIWe00000cd2@hotmail.com>

i was standing outside and i was thinking about the first time i read a poet 
who really touched me, filled me with that feeling i get everytime i 
discover a new poet whose work i really love. it got me wondering about who 
the first poet to really turn you on to poetry.

jason

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp



From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 10 08:33:50 2001
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 08:33:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] first time
In-Reply-To: <F1671Ty9CMdZpDsiIWe00000cd2@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOECOEDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

> i was standing outside and i was thinking about the first time i read a poet 
> who really touched me, filled me with that feeling i get everytime i 
> discover a new poet whose work i really love. it got me wondering about who 
> the first poet to really turn you on to poetry.
> 
> jason

For me, there's no doubt about it. It was Robert Creeley,
reading in El Paso, Texas, somewhen back in the 60s.

Hal            "language--the Riviera of consciousness"
                                 --Bob Perelman

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html



From wasanthony at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 10 08:56:01 2001
From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 05:56:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] first time
In-Reply-To: <F1671Ty9CMdZpDsiIWe00000cd2@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20011010125601.16210.qmail@web12108.mail.yahoo.com>

--- dead poet <adead_poet at hotmail.com> wrote:
> i was standing outside and i was thinking about the first time i read
> a poet 
> who really touched me, filled me with that feeling i get everytime i 
> discover a new poet whose work i really love. it got me wondering
> about who 
> the first poet to really turn you on to poetry.

Way way back in the late 50s, in a dimly-lit, finger-snappin coffee
house in Texas, someone recited some Blake while jazz played in the
background.  That planted a seed that blossomed in the sixties, when I
read Blake from a book then quickly read my way up through Pound and
Eliot.

- Jim

=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
"Ripples" @ <http://www.poetserv.net>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com


From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Oct 10 10:25:37 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 10:25:37 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Mags
Message-ID: <dc.d40f53c.28f5b461@aol.com>

In a message dated 10/9/01 10:50:38 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
duemer at clarkson.edu writes:

> American Poetry Review  (why, I often wonder?)>>
>  
>  Must be because I keep getting published there. I mean, last issue & this
>  forthcoming one. Seriously, when I was a young poet I didn't want to have 
my
>  face on the cover of Rolling Stone--I wanted APR! But, David, again
>  seriously, don't you think Tony Hoagland's recent essays interesting &
>  valuable, even if pretty mainstream? What is it about APR that pisses 
people
>  off so much?
I've been subscribed to APR for a long time. I think
the editors do try to keep up on various trends & the hot properties
of contemporary poetry....generally catching up to them after
they've emerged in other less visible places. I do like the fact 
that APR often publishes larger selections of work. 
And, I have to say, in every issue they publish a poet 
or two I've never heard of....they could easily stick to only
the name brands, but they don't.
Congratulations on that back cover feature poem, Joe...
but where's your glam shot?
Finnegan


From wasanthony at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 10 10:41:47 2001
From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 07:41:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry Mags
Message-ID: <20011010144147.72957.qmail@web12103.mail.yahoo.com>

For insights on editorial philosophies, tastes, and practices, I
recommend _Spreading the Word_, ed. by Stephen Corey and Warren
Slesinger, The Bench Press, 2001.  Part of the back cover blurb: "In
these essays, the editors of twenty literary magazines discuss the
philosophy and practice of selecting poems."  The magazines represented
are Alaska Quarterly Review, Beloit Poetry Journal, Carolina Quarterly,
Chelsea, Georgia Review, Hiram Poetry Review, Iowa Review, Kenyon
Review, Laurel Review, The Lesbian review of Books, Manoa, Many
Mountains Moving, New Letters, North American Review, Northwest Review,
Obsidian III, Sewanee Review, Shenandoah, Southern Review, and The
Women's Review of Books.

I'm using it, along with an anthology (The Best American Poetry, 2000)
in my Poetry Study class.  It's a refreshing approach, I think, and the
students have said how they like the course not feeling "dusty."

- Jim

=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
"Ripples" @ <http://www.poetserv.net>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com


From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 10 11:12:47 2001
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:12:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: On Rejection
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEDBEDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Just in case you aren't aware of this website, entirely
(almost) devoted to rejection. The major URL is,
I believe, www.rejectioncollection.com .

Hal            "language--the Riviera of consciousness"
                                 --Bob Perelman

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-rejects at gfx-design.com
> [mailto:owner-rejects at gfx-design.com]On Behalf Of Catherine Wald
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 11:15 AM
> To: rejects at rejectioncollection.com
> Subject: the latest news from rejectioncollection.com
> 
> 
> The Reject's Rag #14
> October 2001
> 
> 1. Letter from the Publisher: When Depression Goes Global OR
> Please Give Me Back My Mid-Life Crisis!
> 2.  Saved By Rejection
> 3. Suicidal Poet's Words Ring True for My Inner Rejected Essayist
> 4.   "Nasty Rejections Contest" Expose Follow-Up
> 5.  Rejectioncollector of Year Contest Deadline Approaches
> 6.  Rejectioncollectors of the Month: September and October
> 7. Depressing Annals of Ageism from the Other Side of the Pond
> 8.   Words of Wisdom from The King
> 9.  Vanity Press Preaches to the Choir
> 10.  New Newsletter Feature:  Link of the Month
> 11. Media Alert
> 12.   The Stars Never Lie. But They Do Oversimplify.
> 
> 1. Letter from the Publisher: When Depression Goes Global OR
> Please Give Me Back My Mid-Life Crisis!
> 
> You know, it was really was kind of annoying. There I was, minding my own
> business, smack-dab in the middle of the kind of full-blown mid-life crisis
> that only a pampered bourgeois materialistic Satan-worshipping Westerner can
> have, when along came the World Trade Center tragedy. And I thought I'd been
> depressed on September 10th!
> 
> As most of you know, in the face of national tragedy I canned the September
> issue of The Reject's Rag. Instead I sent out an email reminder that writing
> is not as trivial an occupation as it may have appeared to be in the heat
> (and smoke and dust) of the moment. (Thanks to the readers who responded to
> that one; I really did appreciate it.)
> 
> I wasn't alone in taking a break from humor. My favorite website,
> www.theonion.com, also took a moratorium. Even the talk show hosts shut up.
> 
> But - and talk about the resiliency of the human spirit - the onion came
> back on
> September 23rd, instantly disproving its own statement that "according to
> Generation X
> sources, the recent attack on America may have rendered cynicism and
> irony permanently obsolete." Read these articles and you'll see what I mean.
> 
> "US Vows to Defeat Whoever It Is We're at War With"
> http://www.theonion.com/onion3734/us_vows_to_defeat_whoever.html
> "Hijackers Surprised to Find Selves in Hell"
> http://www.theonion.com/onion3734/hijackers_surprised.html
> and "Not Knowing What Else to Do, Woman Bakes American Flag Cake"
> http://www.theonion.com/onion3734/woman_bakes_flag_cake.html
> 
> 
> 2.  Saved by Rejection
> 
> But what really shocked me out of my own stunned sense of nihilism and
> universal existential despair -- and back to my comforting person neuroses
> and handwringing-as-usual was writing my own heartfelt, beautifully crafted
> essay about the tragedy.
> 
> Well, not exactly writing it. More, getting it rejected by just about every
> major U.S. newspaper and magazine under the sun.  Yes, imagine my relief
> upon finding that, despite the fact that these miniscule setbacks in my life
> were absolutely minute, minor, trivial and irrelevant compared with what the
> families of the tragedy victims were going through, EACH ONE OF THOSE
> REJECTIONS STILL HURT LIKE HELL! Each one of them still gave me feelings of
> inappropriate rage, despair and angst! I was still alive, by God, (violins,
> please) and I was going to go on suffering, sweating and feeling worthless
> after all, no matter how much worse off anybody else was!
> 
> 3.  Suicidal Poet's Words Ring True for My Inner Rejected Essayist
> 
>  "Today is the first of August.  It is hot, steamy and wet.  It is raining.
> I am tempted to write a poem.  But I remember what it said on one rejection
> slip:  After a heavy rainfall, poems titled 'Rain' pour in from across the
> nation."
> --Sylvia Plath
> 
> Allow me to paraphrase:  After a tragic terrorist attack on the World Trade
> Center, poems, essays and OpEd pieces entitled, Tragic Terrorist Attack on
> the World Trade Center:  A Personal Look" rained down on editors' heads and
> sprouted in their email inboxes like fetid, poisonous mushrooms. And
> unfortunately, I happened to be the author of one of them.
> 
> Among my rejections was the following:
> 
> "Dear Catherine,
> Thank you so much for sending your very moving piece. It was just lovely.
> Unfortunately, we aren't purchasing any articles right now on the tragedy.
> We have a huge amount on our site and have overspent our budget these two
> weeks. But I really appreciate your thinking of (namedeleted).net."
> 
> In another instance the OpEd editor of a prominent newspaper replied by
> email within two hours. In the subject box she wrote "I will take" (sounded
> like she was going to buy it, right?) and in the body of the email she
> continued "a pass on this."
> 
> But the most frustrating experience I had was an almost-acceptance. The
> editor of the local section of a major metropolitan newspaper known for its
> shabby treatment of writers called to say they were considering running my
> piece but was I aware that the pay is $0.00 and I would be required to cede
> all rights to them in perpetuity. In these desperate days, I just wasn't in
> the mood to give anyone a freebie.  So I kept my dignity, and the piece
> never saw the light of day. Who's crying now? (Me, of course.)
> 
> 4. "Nasty Rejections Contest" Expose Follow-Up
> 
> In case you're wondering, the Missouri Review never did take me up on my
> offer to serve as a judge for their highly derivative "Nasty Rejections
> Contest." To see their winning rejections, go to
> http://moreview.org/special/rejectioncontestresults.php
> 
> Then, email them and suggest that they link to my site, OK?
> 
> 5.  Rejectioncollector of Year Contest Deadline Approaches
> 
> Speaking of contests -- Don't forget, folks - at the end of 2001, you can
> enter our Rejectioncollector of the Year Contest by emailing me a tally of
> the rejections you've received during the year.  Unlike our
> Rejectioncollector of the Month Award, this competition recognizes quantity
> rather than quantity. Rejections can be in any form: letter, email, verbal,
> etc., and you're on the honor system.
> 
> The winner will receive these cool prizes:
> 
> * A copy of the ebook "First Class Male" by Raven West, graciously donated
> by the author.  I'm not usually a fan of romance novels, but how could I
> resist a story that begins:  "The bulky manila envelope was heavy with the
> weight of rejection as Postmaster Alex Bentley placed it on the counter and
> began filling out the yellow pickup slip." I don't want to give anything
> away, but suffice it to say that Alex, a "ruggedly handsome young man" is
> about to get involved with rejected writer Rachel who, alone in a secluded
> cabin, creates "romantic, fictional characters whose relationships were full
> of passion and happy endings.  A sharp contrast to the frustrations and
> bitter disappointments of the real ones she had known all her life."  To
> learn more, go to www.westmiller.com/robin/article/rw_fcm.htm.
> 
> * A copy of  the ebook, "Cowboy in My Pocket," a romance novel parody by
> Reject's Rag subscriber Kate Douglas, which was No. 7 on the Hard Shell Word
> Factory bestseller list and garnered a rave review from Romantic Times
> Magazine. The story opens thusly:
>  "Michelle, darling, it's good to see you.  How've you been?"
>  "Cut the crap, Mark. You, of all people, know how I've been. Forget the
> pleasantries.  Why did you reject my story?"
> You can read more at http://www.katedouglas.com/id17.htm.
> 
> * A copy of the print book, "The Essayist at Work," edited by Lee Gutkind
> (Heinemann, 1998), which includes my profile of Mary Kay Blakely.
> 
> * Last but definitely not least:  We all know about the healing power of
> chocolate, so what better prize for the prolifically rejected author than a
> box of bonbons from the greatest, most delicious hand-made chocolate store
> in the world, the Chatham Candy Manor of Cape Cod, Mass.?  To give yourself
> some advance drooling, go to www.candymanor.com.
> 
> I should warn you all that I've collected quite a few 'nos' lately myself.
> Don't let me win my own contest! It's not too late to send query letters and
> manuscripts out for consideration, so that you, too can reap a bumper crop
> of rejection letters. (The worst that can happen is, you'll actually sell a
> few pieces along the way.)
> 
> 6.  Rejectioncollectors of the Month: September and October
> 
> "I was encouraged to write. It wasn't my idea. But when I stand before my
> mailbox to retrieve my first rejection letter, I will be alone. There will
> be no one on whose shoulder I can cry. My ranting and raving will bounce off
> the walls of my empty apartment. Even if I tear up my novel page by page, I
> will have to carry the shreds out to the garbage myself."
> 
> These are the words of our September winner, Susan Richard. You can read her
> rejection letter at
> http://rejectioncollection.com/rcollection/index.php3?story_id=438
> 
> I chose Pam Calvert's entry as our October winner because it has a fine,
> upstanding moral lesson for all rejected writers. Check it out at
> http://rejectioncollection.com/rcollection/index.php3?story_id=434
> 
> You can also read Pam's personal rejection page at
> http://pamcalvert.www.50megs.com/pam'shumor.html.
> 
> Both Pam and Susan will receive their choice of a T-shirt from our wonderful
> sponsor, The Secondhand Stuff Company, which can be found at
> www.formerlywornby.com.  And now a word from our sponsors.
> 
> ***"The Taming of a Nag?  Much Ado About a Shrew? Yes, even Shakespeare had
> his bad days.  With our whimsical Formerly Worn By Shakespeare T-shirt we
> can all find comfort knowing that even the great bard had writer's block...
> if only for a few minutes."
> 
> So explains The Secondhand Stuff Company, the sponsor for our
> Rejectioncollector of the Month Contest.  'Stuff' which will provide each
> Rejectioncollector of the Month with a Shakespeare T-shirt, also produces
> aprons, mugs and sweatshirts from the famous and infamous including
> Michelangelo, Beethoven, Hillary, Attila the Hun, General Patton and more.
> Artifacts are stamped with the Hysterical Society Seal Of Authenticity. For
> more info, visit Secondhand Stuff at www.formerlywornby.com or call them at
> 800.965.4603.***
> 
> 7. Depressing Annals of Ageism from the Other Side of the Pond
> 
> In an August issue, The Times of London ran an article called "Too old to be
> on the shelf," which begins, "Even established writers are finding it
> difficult to get their books published once they are past the grand old age
> of 30."
> 
> The article quoted Fay Weldon, as follows:  "I think it is virtually
> impossible now for any novelist over the age of 30 to get published even if.
> they are successful.  Publishers are not interested because their editors
> are all aged about 12 and they only want books by girls in their twenties,
> particularly if they are pretty."
> 
> Speaking of 78-year-old novelist Francis King, Beryl Bainbridge told the
> Times, "If Francis wrote another novel now and sent in a photograph of a
> bimbo and said he was 23 and pregnant, he'd be all over the newspapers."
> 
> 8.   Words of Wisdom from The King
> 
> OK, I admit it - when Stephen King's bestselling book, "On Writing," came
> out in paperback, I went out to my local
> mega-book-related-products-that-also-sells-coffee-related
> products-exurban-chain-store and picked up a copy. (I may have even broken
> down and bought an outrageously priced foul-tasting cup of coffee swaddled
> in corrugated cardboard, too -- but if anyone asks me in public, I'll deny
> it.)  I have to admit there were sections of the book that I thoroughly
> enjoyed and that made King seem too likable to hate, no matter how famous he
> becomes. Take this, for example:
> 
> "Eula-Beulah (his babysitter when he was a kid) was prone to farts - the
> kind that are both loud and smelly.  Sometimes when she was so afflicted,
> she would throw me on the couch, drop her wool-skirted butt on my face, and
> let loose.  "Pow!" she'd cry in high glee.  It was like being buried in
> marshgas fireworks.  I remember the dark, the sense that I was suffocating,
> and I remember laughing.  Because, while what was happening was sort of
> horrible, it was also sort of funny.  In many ways, Eula-Beulah prepared me
> for literary criticism.  After having a two-hundred-pound babysitter fart on
> your face and yell Pow!, The Village Voice holds few terrors."
> 
> 9.  Vanity Press Preaches to the Choir
> I don't know how it happened, but five minutes after I copyrighted my first
> rejected novel, I got a bulk-mailing-type "personal" letter addressed to
> "Mr. C. Wald" inviting me to submit my manuscript to the Dorrance Publishing
> Company.  These poor, misguided folks had no idea who they were dealing
> with: The Queen of Rejection herself!
> 
> "As an author," their direct mail piece unnecessarily reads, "you are
> probably aware of (and perhaps have experienced) some of the problems of
> trying to get your work published by a commercial publisher.  Just having
> your manuscript read by most commercial publishers is difficult and usually
> involves long delays."
> 
> 10. New Newsletter Feature:  Link of the Month
> 
> My pick for this month is www.softskull.com, the folks the Village Voice
> calls "the punks of publishing." Visit the site to remind yourself how
> bourgeois you've become in your old age, or to congratulate yourself that
> you haven't, or aren't, whatever.
> 
> I especially love softskull's submission guidelines, which function as a
> sort of universal pre-rejection letter. Here's a sample:
> 
> "We are not interested in any of the following:
> 1. Thrillers of any sort.
> 2. Novels about Jesus, or neo-Jesus, or a cyber-Jesus, or the next Jesus.
> ...
> 3. Near-future adventures where a new Lenin emerges from the masses and does
> the
> Russian Revolution right.
> 4. Whimsical tales of love and laughter as petit bourgeois women travel the
> world and
> find true love after facing the hard realities of having sex with a swarthy
> ethnic type."
> Want to read the whole thing? Go to
> http://www.softskull.com/about/what_we_want.html
> 
> 11. Media Alert
> 
> I was interviewed by a reporter from the Westchester County Times and a
> photographer even came to the house to take a few pictures of me posing at
> my computer, looking forlorn.  This was not a big stretch for me, I have to
> admit. (Depressed? I can do depressed! Do you want depressed and horrified,
> or just plain dejected?) The article will appear in the paper's November
> issue.
> 
> I was also e-interviewed by www.writersmarket.com. Anyone who subscribes can
> read my pearls of wisdom there. Otherwise, read the interview on my site at
> http://rejectioncollection.com/rcollection/index.php3?story_id=458.
> 
> 
> 12.  The Stars Never Lie. But They Do Oversimplify.
> 
> While I was up at Lake Champlain, Vt., during Labor Day weekend, I picked up
> a copy of The Burlington Free Press and checked out my horoscope. This is
> what it said, and I kid you not:
> 
> "Learning to overcome your fear of rejection is a simple process.  If you
> get rejected a few times, you no longer have to fear it."
> 
> All right folks, that's it for this month! Be of good cheer, or if you can't
> do that, at least be like me and enjoy the hell out of your depression.
> 
> Cathy
> 
> cathy at rejectioncollection.com
> Copyright 2001 Catherine Wald
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ***********************************************************
> You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to
> The Rejects Rag, a monthly email newsletter. To unsubscribe
> send an email to majordomo at rejectioncollection.com with the
> following in the message body;
> 
> unsubscribe rejects user at domain.com
> 
> where <user at domain.com> is your subscribed email address
> ***********************************************************
> 
> 


From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 10 11:24:15 2001
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:24:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Roger Mitchell
In-Reply-To: <3BC37DFA.74B3@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEDBEDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

I've met Roger Mitchell and exchange email messages with him occasionally.
He teaches at Indiana Univ., as I recall, and was, way back when, one of
the poets published by New Rivers Press in its early years. A more recent
volume, a book-length poem called "Braid," was published by The Figures
a few years ago ('97, I think).

Hal          "Flotsam, please, and a side order of jetsam."

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html


> A new book, sAvAge bAggAge, by Roger Mitchell, is out, and I'm slated
> to review it for American Book Review.  I hardly ever do any research
> on a poet I review, just have at his book.  But I did do an Internet
> search for Mitchell, because I didn't know him or his work at all.
> Found nothing but a very short text concerned with his teaching.
> So I thought I might experiment with using new-poetry as a resource.
> Anyone have any info on, opinions of, Mitchell?
> 
> I've read, and actually liked, his understated collection, by the way,
> and know pretty much what I'll say about it, which won't be very
> insightful, but I'll quote his poems.  He seems influenced by 
> Stevens but tilting toward the personal touch of Frost.  His
> attitude toward existence seems to count much more to him than
> his craft, though he is conscientious and sometimes inventive in,
> yes, what is but what I won't call in my review, the Iowa School
> vein.  I expect to think a lot more about his book, though, before
> writing my review, so my impressions could change.
> 
>                                                    --Bob G.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


From JBCM2 at aol.com  Wed Oct 10 12:41:14 2001
From: JBCM2 at aol.com (JBCM2 at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:41:14 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Homeland Security"
Message-ID: <145.2d64c53.28f5d42a@aol.com>

In a dramatic departure from the anti-terrorism bill adopted by the House
Judiciary Committee, Senate leaders have introduced the "Uniting and
Strengthening America (USA) Act" (S.1510), a bill that would significantly
undermine many of the freedoms that Americans hold dear.  It is likely that
this legislation will be rushed onto the Senate floor this week without any
committee review.

Among the bill's most troubling provisions are measures that would give the
government the authority to spy on its own people, enable the Attorney
General unlimited authority to incarcerate non-citizens, and allow the
government to expand its use of secret searches.

Take Action!  Don't allow Congress to abandon our cherished constitutional
safeguards during this time of national crisis.  You can read more about
this legislation and send a FREE FAX to your Senators from our action alert
at:

http://www.aclu.org/action/usa107.html



From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed Oct 10 01:39:20 2001
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 00:39:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Homeland Security
Message-ID: <B7E94938.1E32%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Along with other articles on home land security, here's one from The New
Republic worth reading.

http://www.thenewrepublic.com/101501/peretz101501.html



From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Oct 10 16:44:46 2001
From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 16:44:46 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] first time
References: <20011010125601.16210.qmail@web12108.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <3BC4B33E.150A@nut-n-but.net>

Tough question for me because first there was poetry--nursery rhymes,
etc.,--from which I learned that the sound of words can be pleasurable;
then there was light verse, where I learned that jokes can often be
funnier if jingled (but jokes meant much more to me at the time than
poetry).  Coleridge's Ancient Mariner was the poem that made me aware
of what I know consider the lyrical possibilities of poetry (sound
and metaphor); Fitgerald's Omar Khayam and Keats made the discovery
permanent.

Related question: what poet's work first made you want to read all you
could of his work, and all you could ABOUT him?  Keats's is the
answer in my case.

A third interesting question: how often in your life has a poet's 
work caused you to feel this way?  I'm not sure, in my own case.
More than twenty, I'm sure.

(P.S. to another thread: the reason I despise APR is the same reason
I would despise a publication called American Geology Review, if I 
were a geologist and such a publication were the most widely-
circulated publication in my field, and its editors seemed almost
entirely unaware of the theory of continental drift.  Which is a 
good reason to provide copies of it for those students taking 
courses in poetry that use any volume of the Best American Poetry
series.)
                                                  --Bob G.



From adead_poet at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 10 17:09:55 2001
From: adead_poet at hotmail.com (dead poet)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 16:09:55 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] first time
Message-ID: <F2577swtZCvPAvBtbof000030f2@hotmail.com>

we've all read nursery rhymes and limericks and such as kids, and then the 
poems in high school, but they didn't really get me. there were poems that i 
really loved that i came across, like poe's raven and annabel lee and a few 
others i liked in high school. but it wasn't until i read gwendolyn brooks 
that i really started to develop a love for poetry. i followed her up with 
dylan thomas. the first two books of poetry i bought was brooks' selected 
poems and thomas' collected poems. they started me down the path.

your question is a tough one for me. the first poet whose work i read that i 
wanted to learn about him was poe. but his poetry doesn't do for me what 
brooks or thomas or sandburg or frost does. but he is an interesting 
character. ginsberg the same way. i'm actually having this conversation 
about pound, is the biography of the poet more interesting or important than 
the poetry.

and the third question, i have a list of poets who i count as my favorites, 
and these are the ones that have done that, given me that feeling. i've only 
been reading poetry for a few years, but it has happened ten or so times. i 
no longer make a judgement until i've read a significant amount of their 
work. i've made the mistake of thinking that loving a poem or two means the 
same thing. but when i finally got to read more of the work, i've been 
dissapointed (ginsberg and ai come to mind). i'm not necessarily calling 
them bad poets, they just didn't do for me what i thought they would. i'm 
reading wc williams right now, and as i get further into his work he's 
starting to do it for me. it's exciting because there are so many poets i 
haven't read that it has to happen many more times. i haven't read whitman, 
yeats, dickinson, bishop, hardy, and so on like that, that the next few 
years are bound to be exciting ones for me.

jason

>
>Tough question for me because first there was poetry--nursery rhymes,
>etc.,--from which I learned that the sound of words can be pleasurable;
>then there was light verse, where I learned that jokes can often be
>funnier if jingled (but jokes meant much more to me at the time than
>poetry).  Coleridge's Ancient Mariner was the poem that made me aware
>of what I know consider the lyrical possibilities of poetry (sound
>and metaphor); Fitgerald's Omar Khayam and Keats made the discovery
>permanent.
>
>Related question: what poet's work first made you want to read all you
>could of his work, and all you could ABOUT him?  Keats's is the
>answer in my case.

>A third interesting question: how often in your life has a poet's
>work caused you to feel this way?  I'm not sure, in my own case.
>More than twenty, I'm sure.




_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp



From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 10 17:30:07 2001
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:30:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] "Homeland Security"
In-Reply-To: <145.2d64c53.28f5d42a@aol.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEEEDEEDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

I don't know about anybody else, but I'm deleting this message
because I don't know who the hell JBCM2 is. I don't do research
on email addresses, and I don't read/respond to unsigned messages.
This ain't no chat-room, buddy.

Hal     "There are then quite a number of things
            one does or does not know."
                            --Gertrude Stein

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html

> -----Original Message-----
> From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> [mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu]On Behalf Of JBCM2 at aol.com
> Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2001 12:41 PM
> To: working-class-list at listserv.liunet.edu;
> Psyche-Arts at academyanalyticarts.org; new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu;
> POETICS at listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu
> Subject: [New-Poetry] "Homeland Security"
> 
> 
> 
> In a dramatic departure from the anti-terrorism bill adopted by the House
> Judiciary Committee, Senate leaders have introduced the "Uniting and
> Strengthening America (USA) Act" (S.1510), a bill that would significantly
> undermine many of the freedoms that Americans hold dear.  It is likely that
> this legislation will be rushed onto the Senate floor this week without any
> committee review.
> 
> Among the bill's most troubling provisions are measures that would give the
> government the authority to spy on its own people, enable the Attorney
> General unlimited authority to incarcerate non-citizens, and allow the
> government to expand its use of secret searches.
> 
> Take Action!  Don't allow Congress to abandon our cherished constitutional
> safeguards during this time of national crisis.  You can read more about
> this legislation and send a FREE FAX to your Senators from our action alert
> at:
> 
> http://www.aclu.org/action/usa107.html
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 10 17:37:17 2001
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 17:37:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] first time
In-Reply-To: <3BC4B33E.150A@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEDEEDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Shoot, Bob, you were really slow. I learned the sounds of words
can be pleasureable the first time I heard my mother say, "Kitchy-
kitchy-koo."

Hal           "We don't serve fine wine in half-pints, buddy."
                                  --Robert Ashley

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html


> Tough question for me because first there was poetry--nursery rhymes,
> etc.,--from which I learned that the sound of words can be pleasurable;
> then there was light verse, where I learned that jokes can often be
> funnier if jingled (but jokes meant much more to me at the time than
> poetry).  Coleridge's Ancient Mariner was the poem that made me aware
> of what I know consider the lyrical possibilities of poetry (sound
> and metaphor); Fitgerald's Omar Khayam and Keats made the discovery
> permanent.
> 
> Related question: what poet's work first made you want to read all you
> could of his work, and all you could ABOUT him?  Keats's is the
> answer in my case.
> 
> A third interesting question: how often in your life has a poet's 
> work caused you to feel this way?  I'm not sure, in my own case.
> More than twenty, I'm sure.
> 
> (P.S. to another thread: the reason I despise APR is the same reason
> I would despise a publication called American Geology Review, if I 
> were a geologist and such a publication were the most widely-
> circulated publication in my field, and its editors seemed almost
> entirely unaware of the theory of continental drift.  Which is a 
> good reason to provide copies of it for those students taking 
> courses in poetry that use any volume of the Best American Poetry
> series.)
>                                                   --Bob G.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Oct 10 21:20:26 2001
From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:20:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] first time
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEDEEDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3BC4F3DA.5980@nut-n-but.net>

Halvard Johnson wrote:
> 
> Shoot, Bob, you were really slow. I learned the sounds of words
> can be pleasureable the first time I heard my mother say, "Kitchy-
> kitchy-koo."

Good point, Hal.  I'm too tired to sort it out, but a real
investigation would have to distinguish the pleasure to a baby or
small child of a mother's interaction with it from her voice, and
from words as sounds, and from words used poetically (as kitchie
kitchie koo would be, I believe).  I guess I'd argue that nursery
rhymes were my introduction to words used as more than pretty 
sounds.

                                    --Bob G.



From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Oct 10 21:25:32 2001
From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 21:25:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] first time
References: <F2577swtZCvPAvBtbof000030f2@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3BC4F50C.4D71@nut-n-but.net>

snip to:

> i haven't read whitman,
> yeats, dickinson, bishop, hardy, and so on like that, that the next 
> few years are bound to be exciting ones for me.
> 
> jason

Yes!  I'm envious!  As an elder, I don't think I'll discover too 
many new poets in my remaining years--I'm dissolving in  
new poems by poets familiar to me--when not distracted by 
my own work.

                                             --Bob G.



From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu  Wed Oct 10 23:31:50 2001
From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Prentiss, Amber)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 23:31:50 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Mags in the Classroom
Message-ID: <E7C06C25D501D511BA9900508BB82AA90DE1C0@ness.agnesscott.edu>

While thinking of the subject of poetry magazines in the classroom, I
remembered that one of my professors did not require us to subscribe;
rather, he made us write a paper attempting to do a compare and/or contrast
on two (or more) literary magaines and attempt to puzzle out their
respective editorial policies based on an issue or two. I liked it. (This
was a subgrad class.) Just tossing that one out.

-Amber


From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Wed Oct 10 23:30:04 2001
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 22:30:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Round Midnight
Message-ID: <200110110329.f9B3Tvp21765@mx1.mx.voyager.net>

It's Thelonious Monk's birthday, and I can't help myself. . . .


STUTTER MONK


In the middle of an old tape
of an even older record
suddenly Monk's stuttering
more than usual over one note,
one note, one note--
it takes a minute to hear
the skip apart from his
offkilter rhythms
which jitter like somebody
rising from a chair
with one leg asleep;
to know that though
he could have played
*skipping record*  if he'd wished,
as he played  *ragged laundry
blowing across a porch*
and *the jerk of subway brakes*,
this time it's just an artifact
of someone's odd devotion,
a song too good to leave off
the tape despite that stammer
and the half minute it takes
that vanished loved one
to drift in from the kitchen,
puzzled and askew,
then nudge the needle on
a groove or two to complete
this weird arpeggio
on "I Should Care,"
Monk solo, Monk solo, Monk solo
--as who isn't, retrieving
shards of dropped days?

_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________


From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Wed Oct 10 23:53:42 2001
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 22:53:42 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] National Book Award
Message-ID: <200110110350.f9B3o2575563@mx10.mx.voyager.net>

And the nominees are:

Agha Shadid Ali, Rooms Are Never Finished
Wanda Coleman, Mercurochrome
Alan Dugan, Poems Seven: New and Complete Poetry
Cornelius Eady, Brutal Imagination
Gail Mazur, They Can't Take That Away From Me

Haven't read a single one, unless you count Dugan (Poems 1 through 6,
anyway).  

Any recommendations?  Votes?
_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________


From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Thu Oct 11 03:21:36 2001
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 00:21:36 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] In Favor of Silence
References: <45.d16ec7d.28f4a97e@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3BC54880.267F31F0@earthlink.net>

James---

One of the editors of Delmar is named Jeff Hamilton....
His email is
"jbhamilt at artsci.wustl.edu"
if you want to get in touch with him....

take care, and/or all best,

Chris


JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> Chris,
> Thanks for your (Riding) Jackson suggestions. I'll have to
> get that issue of Delmar when it comes out. I lived near the Delmar Loop
> in St. Louis for a number of years...I imagine that magazine
> was founded thereabouts.
> In Chelsea #69 an earlier issue, Chelsea #35 ('76), is mentioned as another
> source of L(R)J material. But I'm sure that would not be easy to
> track down other than by visiting a library with a good-sized special
> collection
> of literary magazines.
> Finnegan
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From snospx at silcom.com  Thu Oct 11 09:51:11 2001
From: snospx at silcom.com (Barry Spacks)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:51:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Round Midnight
In-Reply-To: <200110110329.f9B3Tvp21765@mx1.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011011095111.007b9210@silcom.com>

At 10:30 PM 10/10/01 -0500, David Graham wrote:
>It's Thelonious Monk's birthday, and I can't help myself. . . .
>
>
>STUTTER MONK

exc...el...exc...x...excellent

(a cl...classic, in fact)

b.


From snospx at silcom.com  Thu Oct 11 09:51:05 2001
From: snospx at silcom.com (Barry Spacks)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 09:51:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] National Book Award
In-Reply-To: <200110110350.f9B3o2575563@mx10.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011011095105.007c8b90@silcom.com>

At 10:53 PM 10/10/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Any recommendations?  Votes?

recomendations:

David Graham
Kim Hodges
Hal Johnson

but keeping to those happy-just-to-be-nominated,
Dugan f'sure.

Hello from this lurker-newbie to old friends and new, 

BUSA

>David Graham
>grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
>_______________________
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu Oct 11 12:09:12 2001
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:09:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] National Book Award
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20011011095105.007c8b90@silcom.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEDLEDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Welcome back (?), Barry. Good to see your
voice. I'll have to respectively decline the
nomination, though. I'm afraid I haven't done 
a book this year . . . or last . . . or the year
before last. Can I take a raincheck?

Hal            "language--the Riviera of consciousness"
                                 --Bob Perelman

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html

> >Any recommendations?  Votes?
> 
> recomendations:
> 
> David Graham
> Kim Hodges
> Hal Johnson
> 
> but keeping to those happy-just-to-be-nominated,
> Dugan f'sure.
> 
> Hello from this lurker-newbie to old friends and new, 
> 
> BUSA



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu Oct 11 12:26:32 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:26:32 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] National Book Award
Message-ID: <144.2f039d2.28f72238@cs.com>

Uh, I know of a guy from Texas who had a book of poetry published in 2001.
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu Oct 11 12:24:29 2001
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 12:24:29 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] National Book Award
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEDLEDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEDMEDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Naturally, I meant "respectfully" down below
here.

Hal, barely holding it together here in NYC
 
> Welcome back (?), Barry. Good to see your
> voice. I'll have to respectively decline the
> nomination, though. I'm afraid I haven't done 
> a book this year . . . or last . . . or the year
> before last. Can I take a raincheck?
> 
> Hal            "language--the Riviera of consciousness"
>                                  --Bob Perelman
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
> 
> > >Any recommendations?  Votes?
> > 
> > recomendations:
> > 
> > David Graham
> > Kim Hodges
> > Hal Johnson
> > 
> > but keeping to those happy-just-to-be-nominated,
> > Dugan f'sure.
> > 
> > Hello from this lurker-newbie to old friends and new, 
> > 
> > BUSA
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


From snospx at silcom.com  Thu Oct 11 14:47:45 2001
From: snospx at silcom.com (Barry Spacks)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 14:47:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] National Book Award
In-Reply-To: <144.2f039d2.28f72238@cs.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011011144745.007c6100@silcom.com>

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From halvard at earthlink.net  Thu Oct 11 17:07:12 2001
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 17:07:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] 9/11 + 30  A final note from Hal
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEMEOLEAAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEECEDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

A couple people lately have asked if we're returning to
anything like normality here in New York, so I though
I'd send one brief (and final) message on this to you.

I think you're already aware of New York's situation--
the clogged streets (improved by the ban on one-passenger
cars on weekday mornings), the downtown streets still
closed, the revenue loss, the Yankees' loss last night,
etc., so I won't deal with much of that.

This morning Lynda and I had to move our car out
of its curbside parking spot for a few hours so the street
could be clean--or rather so the city could once again
pick up some revenue by ticketing and/or towing cars
that don't get moved for street-cleaning. That, according
to the morning New York Times, amounts to $250,000
or so in income for the city each day. So, alternate-side-
of-the-street parking is back for the first time here in
Manhattan since 9/11. The city needs the money.

After dealing with the car, we stopped by the community
room downstairs to cast our votes in the Green/Ferrer
run-off in NYC's mayoral contest--that's the second
time we've voted since 9/11. Who says small-d democracy
is dead?

Not much else. On 60 Minutes II the other night, Charles
Grodin (the weeknight Andy Rooney) did a bit on the
various aches and pains that many of all of us have been
dealing with since 9/11. Lynda's got no voice today. She's
been working her way through the same set of symptoms
I've just about finished with--sore throat, headache,
sneezes, sniffles, mucous running amok, laryngitis, and
so on. I threw my back out (getting up from a couch, it
seemed) on the Thursday after 9/11, and that took about
a week to work itself out, but then I didn't try hanging
upside down from a horizontal bar, as Grodin did.
So, Lynda's napping now, and I'm doing phone duty.

In general then, all's well. Life goes on. How's by you?

Hal           "We don't serve fine wine in half-pints, buddy."
                                  --Robert Ashley

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html




From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Oct 11 19:57:22 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 19:57:22 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] National Book Award
Message-ID: <4e.4170.28f78be2@aol.com>

In a message dated 10/10/01 11:54:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu writes:

<< Alan Dugan, Poems Seven: New and Complete Poetry >>
I hope he hasn't stopped writing (or died & I didn't know).
Finnegan


From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Oct 11 20:03:30 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:03:30 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] first time
Message-ID: <78.1c098539.28f78d52@aol.com>

Gary Snyder reading in in St. Louis MO,
sometime in the early 70's, just after his
collection _Turtle Island_ had been released.
Finnegan


From duemer at clarkson.edu  Thu Oct 11 19:57:05 2001
From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 19:57:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] National Book Award
References: <144.2f039d2.28f72238@cs.com>
Message-ID: <005201c152b0$6e2932c0$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

<<Uh, I know of a guy from Texas who had a book of poetry published in 2001.>>

Sam, it's not the National Book Award, but at least we'll be reviewing it in Poetry International. And I'll assign another formalist--not some berserker L=dopa fanatic, to do the piece, though it may be one of my resident "left-formalists." Thanks for sending the book.

jd
======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750 
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
====================== 




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From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Oct 11 20:06:53 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 20:06:53 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cohen Blurb
Message-ID: <60.151e2b19.28f78e1d@aol.com>

"You live your life as if it's real
A thousand kisses deep."

--Leonard Cohen


From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Thu Oct 11 22:32:14 2001
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 21:32:14 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: National Book Award
Message-ID: <200110120232.f9C2WC011047@mx1.mx.voyager.net>

A hearty welcome to Barry Spacks!  Good to see you in these environs.

Prizes are of course silly and ever-obtuse.  But I've been occasionally
alerted to some good stuff via this route.  John Balaban's selected poems
got under my radar completely, for instance, until he was nominated for one
of the big awards.  He didn't win, as I recall, but I'm glad I found his
poems.  

Anyhow, I'm still wondering if anyone might have anything to say about the
current NBA nominees.

Last I heard, Alan Dugan was alive and kicking.  He's been out of print for
ages:  this new collection is very welcome, and I too will probably root for
him for sentimental reasons.

David Graham
_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________

----------
>From: Barry Spacks <snospx at silcom.com>
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] National Book Award
>Date: Thu, Oct 11, 2001, 8:51 AM
>

>At 10:53 PM 10/10/01 -0500, you wrote:
>>Any recommendations?  Votes?
>
>recomendations:
>
>David Graham
>Kim Hodges
>Hal Johnson
>
>but keeping to those happy-just-to-be-nominated,
>Dugan f'sure.
>
>Hello from this lurker-newbie to old friends and new, 
>
>BUSA
>



From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Thu Oct 11 23:17:56 2001
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 22:17:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: first time
Message-ID: <200110120320.f9C3KJU62530@mx7.mx.voyager.net>

There are dozens of answers I could make to this question, really.  Strictly
speaking, probably Dr. Seuss &  A. A. Milne were my first pantheon.  *The
Cat in the Hat* is still one of my favorite books of all time.  Oh, and the
King James Bible.  

After that, it was surely Lennon/McCartney, Paul Simon, Joni Mitchell, and
Dylan (Bob, not Thomas).

By the time I'd started to write poetry, in my teens, I went to some of the
usual suspects for the times:  Ferlinghetti, Brautigan, and eventually to
the better stuff in that vein:  Ginsberg, Snyder, O'Hara, et al.  But maybe
the biggest bombshell for me was Robert Bly, particularly *Sleepers Joining
Hands*, which was catalyst for all sorts of things.  I find I can't read Bly
today without a certain amount of pain, but he surely nudged me to life in
many respects, and I'll always be grateful.  Among many other things, he
soon led me to Whitman, Neruda, Transtromer, and many other more durable
loves.

David Graham
_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________

----------
>From: "dead poet" <adead_poet at hotmail.com>
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] first time
>Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001, 4:10 AM
>

>i was standing outside and i was thinking about the first time i read a poet 
>who really touched me, filled me with that feeling i get everytime i 
>discover a new poet whose work i really love. it got me wondering about who 
>the first poet to really turn you on to poetry.
>
>jason
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri Oct 12 02:38:31 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 02:38:31 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] National Book Award
Message-ID: <2b.1c984f2f.28f7e9e7@cs.com>

In a message dated 10/11/2001 7:06:42 PM Central Daylight Time, 
duemer at clarkson.edu writes:


> Sam, it's not the National Book Award, but at least we'll be reviewing it in 
> Poetry International. And I'll assign another formalist--not some berserker 
> L=dopa fanatic, to do the piece, though it may be one of my resident 
> "left-formalists." Thanks for sending the book.
> 

Thanks, Joe.
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From adead_poet at hotmail.com  Fri Oct 12 03:01:08 2001
From: adead_poet at hotmail.com (dead poet)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 02:01:08 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: first time
Message-ID: <F125JxV0HvBgUp5G9C100001f60@hotmail.com>

ah, i forgot about seuss. i still read and love green eggs and ham. and this 
is the second time i've seen snyder mentioned in response to my question. i 
haven't read much by him yet, but the little i read did excite me very much 
and i look forward to reading more by him.

jason


>
>There are dozens of answers I could make to this question, really.  
>Strictly
>speaking, probably Dr. Seuss &  A. A. Milne were my first pantheon.  *The
>Cat in the Hat* is still one of my favorite books of all time.  Oh, and the
>King James Bible.
>
>After that, it was surely Lennon/McCartney, Paul Simon, Joni Mitchell, and
>Dylan (Bob, not Thomas).
>
>By the time I'd started to write poetry, in my teens, I went to some of the
>usual suspects for the times:  Ferlinghetti, Brautigan, and eventually to
>the better stuff in that vein:  Ginsberg, Snyder, O'Hara, et al.  But maybe
>the biggest bombshell for me was Robert Bly, particularly *Sleepers Joining
>Hands*, which was catalyst for all sorts of things.  I find I can't read 
>Bly
>today without a certain amount of pain, but he surely nudged me to life in
>many respects, and I'll always be grateful.  Among many other things, he
>soon led me to Whitman, Neruda, Transtromer, and many other more durable
>loves.
>
>David Graham
>_______________________
>David Graham
>grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
>_______________________
>
>----------
> >From: "dead poet" <adead_poet at hotmail.com>
> >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >Subject: [New-Poetry] first time
> >Date: Wed, Oct 10, 2001, 4:10 AM
> >
>
> >i was standing outside and i was thinking about the first time i read a 
>poet
> >who really touched me, filled me with that feeling i get everytime i
> >discover a new poet whose work i really love. it got me wondering about 
>who
> >the first poet to really turn you on to poetry.
> >
> >jason
> >
> >_________________________________________________________________
> >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at 
>http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >New-Poetry mailing list
> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp



From khodges at softhome.net  Fri Oct 12 02:58:24 2001
From: khodges at softhome.net (Kim Hodges)
Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2001 23:58:24 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] National Book Award
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20011011095105.007c8b90@silcom.com>
References: <200110110350.f9B3o2575563@mx10.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011011193218.00a2b2c0@pop.softhome.net>

>At 10:53 PM 10/10/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >Any recommendations?  Votes?
>
>recomendations:
>
>David Graham
>Kim Hodges
>Hal Johnson
>
>but keeping to those happy-just-to-be-nominated,
>Dugan f'sure.
>
>Hello from this lurker-newbie to old friends and new,
>
>BUSA

Thank you Barry. I'm running in the category of 'phantom book'.
The lit equivalent of vaporware.

I don't think haiku has ever won any of these biggee awards.
I think there must be some discrimination here, perhaps we
should complain.

Lately I've been far from writing anything of even
open-mic quality, let alone prizeworthy.

                 - Kim






From khodges at softhome.net  Fri Oct 12 03:33:13 2001
From: khodges at softhome.net (Kim Hodges)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 00:33:13 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: first time
In-Reply-To: <F125JxV0HvBgUp5G9C100001f60@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011012001620.00a9edf0@pop.softhome.net>

At 02:01 AM 10/12/01 -0500, you wrote:
>ah, i forgot about seuss. i still read and love green eggs and ham. and 
>this is the second time i've seen snyder mentioned in response to my 
>question. i haven't read much by him yet, but the little i read did excite 
>me very much and i look forward to reading more by him.
>
>jason


That reminds me of an earlier love -- Hunting of the Snark.
'serve it with greens in those shadowy scenes, or use it
for striking a light'!  The things that stick with one ...

Later, when taking a more serious look at poetry, it was
Carolyn Kizer's 'Knock Upon Silence' that really attracted me.
For one thing, it was one of my first introductions to Chinese poets.
It also contains a haiku/haibun-like diary called 'A Month in Summer'
that I thought was wonderful.  Now somewhat more experienced and
jaded, I think the Chinese translations are probably not as good
as others (even so, they are still presented in a very interesting
way).  And the haiku is not really haiku, but overall it is still very
effective.

After that, there was Louise Gluck's 'The Wild Irises', which
I keep meaning to go back and read again.  Another I really
loved:  Jack Gilbert's 'The Great Fires'.

                         - Kim



From JackKerouac25 at aol.com  Fri Oct 12 10:05:14 2001
From: JackKerouac25 at aol.com (JackKerouac25 at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 10:05:14 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry]  National Book Award
Message-ID: <e4.1c31c40e.28f8529a@aol.com>

Corneleus Eady's _Brutal Imagination_ is an interesting read, if only for its premise:  the entire story is written from the perspective of the black man who Susan Smith (I think we remember her) made up and said kidnapped her children.

Has anyone read it?  Heard of it?  

Jeff Newberry
Adjunct Instructor
Dept. of English
University of West Florida


From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Oct 12 11:39:45 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 11:39:45 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] U B U W E B / E P C :: M P 3___A R C H I V E
Message-ID: <b2.8a86e.28f868c1@aol.com>

Sender:       UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS at LISTSERV.ACSU.BUFFALO.EDU>
From:         UbuEditor <ubuweb at YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      U B U W E B / E P C :: M P 3__A R C H I V E
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
          UbuWeb Visual, Concrete + Sound Poetry
                         http://www.ubu.com

                                  and

                      The Electronic Poetry Center
                          http://epc.buffalo.edu


                are pleased to announce the launch of


           U B U W E B / E P C :: M P 3__A R C H I V E
                        http://www.ubu.com/mp3



UbuWeb Visual, Concrete, + Sound Poetry and The Electronic Poetry
Center at SUNY Buffalo are pleased to announce the launch of the
Internet's largest MP3 archive of Sound Poetry and related audio
materials.

The files are currently for download only but multiple bandwidth
streaming will be available in the near future.


The following MP3 files are available for your use:


Vito Acconci

1. Ten Packed Minutes (1977) (12:33)

Pierre Albert-Birot

1. Poemes a crier et a danser / Chant 1 / L' Avion / Chant III (1916-19), 1:05
2. Poemes a deux voix / Metro / Balalaika (1916-19)
3. Poemes Promethee / Crayon bleu (1918)

Altagor, France

1. from "Discours Absolu" (1947-60), 1947-60

Charles Amirkhanian, USA

Mental Radio
1. Church Car, Version 2 (1980-81) (2:55)
2. Dot Bunch (1981)
3. Dog of Stravinsky (1982) (3:21)
4. Hypothetical Moments (1981) (5:31)
5. Maroa (1981) (5:10)
6. The Putts (1981) (5:18)
7. Dreams Freud Dreamed (1970) (5:10)
8. Andas (1982) (6:45)
9. History of Collage (1981) (4:48)
10. Dzarim Bess Ga Khorim (1972) (5:10)

Antonin Artaud, France

1. from "Pour en finir avec le jugement de Dieu" (1947), 24:05

Hugo Ball

1. Karawane / Wolken / Katzen und pfauen / Totenklage / Gadji beri
bimba / Seepferdchen und Flugfische (1916), 7:40

Giacomo Balla

1. L'Annoiata (c. 1920), 2:45
2. Canzone di Maggio (1914), :41
3. Discussione dul futurismo di due critici sudanesi (1914), 1:18
4. Funerale a piazza Termini (1918), :33
5. Macchina Tipografica (1914), :23
6. Paesaggio + Temporale (1914), :50
7. Il Pigro (c. 1920), 2:45

Samuel Beckett

1. Cascando (1963) (17:20)
2. Words and Music (1962) (23:40)
3. Krapp's Last Tape, Part I
4. Krapp's Last Tape, Part II

Eric Belgum

1. Bad Marriage Mantra (1998) (60:00)

Charles Bernstein | Class

1. Piffle (Breathing) (1976) (7:00)
2. 1-100 (1969) (3:00)
3. My/My/My (1976) (5:00)
4. Class (1976) (10:30)
5. Goodnight (1976) (1:00)

Jaap Blonk (Reverof Zrem)

1. Ursonate (1998) (35:00)

Christian Bok, Canada

1. Seahorses and Flying Fish (3:10)
2. And Sometimes (:32)
3. Valuveula (1:16)
4. from "Motorized Razors" (2:24)
5. Ubu Hubbub (:46)
6. Ursonate (18:36)

William S. Burroughs, USA

1. from Naked Lunch (1977)
2. from "The Wild Boys" (1974)
3. What Washington, What Orders (1974)
4. Keynote Commentary / Roosevelt After Inauguration (1978)
5. Benway (1978)
6. from The Gay Gun: This is Kim Carson / Just Like The Collapse of
any Currency / The Whole Tamale (1978)
7. What the Nova Convention is About (1978)
8. Conversations | William Burroughs, Brion Gysin, Timothy Leary, Les
Levine, and Robert Anton Wilson (1978)
9. When Did I Stop Wanting to be President (1975)


John Cage, USA

1. Mushroom Haiku, excerpt from Silence (1972/69)
2. excerpt from Silence (1969)
3. Writing for the Second Time Through Finnegans Wake (1978)
4. Song, Derived from the Journal of Henry David Thoreau (1976)
5. Mureau (1975)


Francesco Cangiullo

1. Il sifone d'oro, 3:53 (1913)

Velemir Chlebnikov

1. Bobeobi (c. 1908), :53
2. Esorcismo col riso (1908), :35
3. from "Zangezi": Il Linguaggio degli dei (1922), 1:50
4. from "Zangezi": Il Linguaggio delle stelle (1922), 3:46

Henri Chopin, France

1. La civilisation du papier (1975), 7:07
2. Extreme Tension (1974), 4:30
3. Henri Chopin | Definition des Lettres Suivantes (1975), 5:335

Il concento prosodico, Italy

Sergio Cena, Arrigo Lora-Totino, Roberto Musto, Laura Santiano
Sinfonia in 4 materie (1976)
1. Vocali (1:40)
2. Vetro ben temperato (3:40)
3. Fricative (2:55)
4. Xilofonia (3:55)
5. Tenzone tropicale (3:10)
6. Siderodiafonia (6:00)
7. Vocali (1:17)

Bob Cobbing, U.K.

1. 15 Shakespeare-Kaku (1975), 8:55
2. Bob Cobbing | Portrait of Robin Crozier (1976), 4:55

Carlfriedrich Claus

1. Laugtgedichten (1965), 4:12

Francis E. Dec

1. Rant 1
2. Rant 2
3. Rant 3
4. Rant 4
5. Rant 5


Fortunado Depero, Italy

1. SiiO VLUMMIA - torrente (1916), 1:12
2. Tramvai (1916), 3:08
3. Verbalizzazione astratta di signora (1916), 2:45

Francois Dufrene, France

1. Un retour a mes sources (1971), 10:25
2. La Valse (1958), 3:45

Nikolaus Einhorn

1. Don't you may be, the essential interview (1975), 5:02

Farfa

1. Affaraffari (1947), 3:49
2. Sincopatie / Innanzi al' / Le Rondini / Apersi / Il Mattino / Luna
Erotomane (1933), 1:15
3. Tuberie (1937), 2:32
4. Veni Vidi Viti (1937), 2:44

Fylkingen Text-Sound Festivals | 10 Years, Sweden

1. Lars-Gunnar Bodin | Nastan / Plus (1977), 1:10
2. Sten Hanson | Au 197,0 (1976), 5:40
3. Ake Hodell | The Voyage to Labrador (1977), 4:15
4. Bengt Emil Johnson | Behind Alpha (1977), 4:15
5. Ilmar Laaban | Des dal les et de des (1977), 2:35
6. Charles Amirkhanian | Dzarim Bess Ga Khorim (1972), 5:10
7. Henri Chopin | Definition des Lettres Suivantes (1975), 5:35
8. Bob Cobbing | Portrait of Robin Crozier (1976), 4:55
9. Bernard Heidsieck | Sisyphe (1977), 4:05
10. Arrigo Lora-Totino | Chiacchere (1976), 4:55

John Giorno

1. Grasping at Emptiness (1978)
2. Vajra Kisses (1972)
3. Suicide Sutra (1973)
4. Eating The Sky (1978)
5. Excerpt from Shit, Piss, Blood, Pus + Brains (1976)
6. Excerpt from Subduing Demons in America (1975)


Giorno Poetry Systems | Big Ego

1. Patti Smith | The Histories of the Universe (1975)
2. Philip Glass | A Secret Solo (1977)
3. John Giorno | Grasping at Emptiness (1978)
4. Laurie Anderson | Three Expediences (1978)
5. Robert Wilson + Christopher Knowles | A Letter to Queen Victoria (1975)
6. Meredith Monk | Biography (1972)
7. Michael Lally | All of the Above (1978)
8. Robert Lowell | Ulysses & Circe (1977)
9. Larrry Wendt | How to Cook a Duck (1976)
10. Jackie Curtis | Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas (1976)
11. Ed Sanders | A Monologue (1968)
12. William S. Burroughs | from Naked Lunch (1977)
13. Harris Schiff | 15 Years Passes / Dollar Bill (1977)
14. Otis Brown | Boneless Chicken (1977)
15. Joel Oppenheimer | Cities, This City (1976)
16. The Fugs | Saran Wrap (1965)
17. Claes Oldenburg | June Was / Panodramdra (1976)
18. Denise Levertov | Woman Alone (1977)
19. Ted Greenwald | Friends (1977)
20. Anthony J. Gnazzo | Hisnia & Hernia (1975)
21. Steve & Gloria Troop | Snow White (1977)
22. Jim Brodey | Homeward Bound (1976)
23. Robert Ashley | Interiors with Flash (1976)
24. Eileen Miles | Tuesday Brightness (1977)
25. Helen Adams | Apartment on Twin Peaks (1977)
26. Anne Waldman | Light & Shadow (1975)
27. Joe Johnson | Fly Ho (1977)
28. Lorenzo Thomas | Wonders (1977)
29. Ishmael Reed | Sky Diving (1977)
30. Kenward Elmslie | The Woolworth Song (1978)
31. Mona da Vinci | The Sacred Art of Wood (1974)
32. Bernard Heidsieck | Canal Street No. 19 (1976)
33. Steve Hamilton | Promise (1976)
34. Frank O'Hara | Poem / Poem (1963)
35. Ron Padgett | No Title (1978)

Giorno Poetry Systems | Biting off the Tongue of a Corpse

1. Gary Snyder | from "Turtle Island" (1975)
2. John Giorno | Excerpt from Subduing Demons in America (1975)
3. William S. Burroughs | from "The Wild Boys" (1974)
4. Charles Olson | Maximus of Gloucester (1967)
5. Ted Berrigan | Excerpts from Memorial Day (1974)
6. Ed Sanders | The Struggle (1975)
7. Edwin Denby | The Shoulder, etc. (1975)
8. Helen Adam | Cheerless Junkie Song (1975)
9. Diane DiPrima | Ave (1974)
10. John Wieners | In Public (1968)
11. Robert Duncan | To Speak My Mind... (1974)
12. John Cage | Mureau (1975)
13. Denise Levertov | Life at War (1966)
14. Frank O'Hara | Having a Coke with You (1966)
15. Kenneth Koch | Spring (1966)
16. John Ashbery | A Blessing in Disguise (1966)
17. Charles Stein | Seed Poem (1975)


Giorno Poetry Systems | Dial-A-Poem Poets

1. Allen Ginsberg | Vajra Mantra (1972)
2. Diana De Prima | Revolutionary Letters Nos. 7, 13, 16, 49 (1969)
3. William S. Burroughs | excerpts from The Wild Boys (1971)
4. Anne Waldman | Pressure, Holy City (1972)
5. John Giorno | Vajra Kisses (1972)
6. Emmett Williams | Duet (1968)
7. Ed Sanders | Cemetery Hill (1965)
8. Taylor Mead | Motorcycles (1969)
9. Allen Ginsberg | Green Automobile 1953 (1971)
10. Robert Creeley | The Messenger for Allen Ginsberg, I Know a Man (1971)
11. Harris Schiff | Poems (1972)
12. Lenore Kandel | Kali (1965)
13. Aram Saroyan | Not a Cricket (1969)
14. Philip Whalen | from Scenes of Life at the Capital (1971)
15. Ted Berrigan | from The Sonnets (1965)
16. Frank O'Hara | Ode to Joy, To Hell With It (1963)
17. Joe Brainard | from I Remember (1970)
18. Clark Coolidge | Small Inventions: Suite V (plurals) secanate,
Suite IV (1969)
19. Jim Carroll | from The Basketball Diaries (1969)
20. John Cage | Mushroom Haiku, excerpt from Silence (1972/69)
21. Bernadette Mayer | These Stories About After the Revolution (1970)
22. Michael Brownstein | Geography (1970)
23. Brion Gysin | I Am That I Am (1958)
24. John Sinclair | The Destruction of America (1965)
25. Anne Waldman | How the Sestina (Yawn) Works (1977)
26. Heathcote Williams | I Will Not Pay Taxes Until (1969)
27. David Henderson | The Louisiana Weekly No. 1, Ruckus Poem Part 1 (1968)
28. Bobby Seale | excerpt from Fillmore East speech (1968)
29. Kathleen Cleaver | excerpt from Fillmore East speech (1968)
30. Allen Ginsberg | Blake Song: Merrily We Welcome in the Year (1971)


Giorno Poetry Systems | Disconnected

1. Allen Ginsberg | I'm a Victim of Telephones (1968)
2. Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche | Cynical Letter, A Letter to Marpa,
Sound Cycle (Aham) (1974)
3. John Giorno | Suicide Sutra (1973)
4. William S. Burroughs | What Washington, What Orders (1974)
5. Charles Plymell | 100 Flies on an Airplane Flying Around the World (1974)
6. Michael Brownstein | Monologue from the Top (1974)
7. John Cage | excerpt from Silence (1969)
8. Anne Waldman | Fast Speaking Woman (1973)
9. Diane DiPrima | excerpt from Loba (1973)
10. Bernadette Mayer | excerpt from Studying Hunger (1973)
11. Robert Creeley | The Name (1973)
12. Diane Wakoski | High Heel Jesus (1970)
13. Lorenzo Thomas | High Heel Jesus (1973)
14. Gregory Coroso | Marriage (1973)
15. Maureen Owen | Body Rush (1974)
16. Ed Sanders | Stand by My Side Oh Lord (1973)
17. Charles Olson | The Ridge (1967)
18. Allen Ginsberg | Jimmy Berman (1971)
19. Joe Brainard | excerpt from More I Remember More (1974)
20. John Wieners | excerpt from Memories in a Small Apartment (1974)
21. Gerard Malanga | A Last Poem (Tentative Title) (1969)
22. John Perreault | Nude Death (1973)
23. Jack Spicer: excerpt from Billy the Kid (1965)
24. Jim Carroll: from The Basketball Diaries, Age 13, Spring 1965 (1973)
25. Peter Orlovsky: All Around the Garden (1974)
26. Imamu Amiri Baraka | Our Nation Is Like Ourselves (1970)
27. Michael McClure | Lion Poem (1974)
28. Ed Dorn | Recollections of Grande Apacharia (1973)
29. Frank Lima: The Hunter (1974)
30. Frank O'Hara | Adieu Norman, Bonjour to Joan and Jean Paul from
Lunch Poems (1964)
31. Bill Berkson | Stanky (1968)
32. Larry Fagin | A Play (1969)
33. Tom Clark | Little Aria (1972)
34. Paul Blackburn | The Once-Over from Brooklyn Manhattan Transit (1963)
35. Philip Whelan: If You're So Smart Why Aren't You Rich (1965)
36. Ron Padgett: June 17, 1942 (1974)
37. John Ashbery: The Tennis Court Oath (1969)
38. Clark Coolidge: excerpt from Dews (1969)
39. Charles Amirkhanian | RADII (1972)


Giorno Poetry Systems | The Nova Convention

1. Terry Southern | Vignette of Idealistic Life in South Texas (1:25)
2. William S. Burroughs | Keynote Commentary & Roosevelt After
Inauguration (5:52)
3. John Giorno | Eating The Sky (13:30)
4. Patti Smith | Poem for Jim Morrison & Bumblebee (11:45)
5. William S. Burroughs | Benway (3:40)
6. Philip Glass | Building (excerpt from  Einstein on the Beach) (3:04)
7. Brion Gysin | Kick That Habit, Junk Is No Good Baby, Somebody
Special, & Blue Baboon (7:06)
8. Frank Zappa | The Talking Asshole (5:25)
9. William S. Burroughs | from The Gay Gun: This is Kim Carson / Just
Like The Collapse of any Currency / The Whole Tamale (13:27)
10. William S. Burroughs | What the Nova Convention is About (2:35)
11. Ed Sanders | Hymn to Aphrodite form Sappho (8:50)
12. John Cage | Writing for the Second Time Through Finnegans Wake (14:15)
13. Anne Waldman | Plutonium Ode & Skin Meat Bones (6:35)
14. Laurie Anderson + Julia Heyward | Song from America On The Move (12:50)
15. Allen Ginsberg + Peter Orlovsky | Punk Rock & Old Pond (13:00)
16. Conversations | William Burroughs, Brion Gysin, Timothy Leary,
Les Levine, and Robert Anton Wilson (7:10)


Giorno Poetry Systems | Totally Corrupt

1. Charles Bukowski | Cloud Nine / I Live in a Neighborhood of
Murderers / Two Horse Collars, 1974
2. Ed Dorn | from Gunslinger, Book 4, 1975
3. William S. Burroughs | When Did I Stop Wanting to be President, 1975
4. Sylvia Plath | Daddy, 1962
5. John Giorno | excerpt from Shit, Piss, Blood, Pus + Brains, 1976
6. Michael McClure | from Jaguar Sky: There's Cruelty in Every Jewel, 1975
7. Michael Brownstein | Jet Set Melodrama, 1975
8. Jackie Curtis | You Are My Lucky Star, 1976
9. Ed Sanders | This is the Age of Investigation Poetry and Every
Citizen Must Investigate, 1976
10. Charles Bukowski | Christ, You'll Never Know / The Closing of the
Topless Ande Bottomless Bars, 1974
11. Anne Waldman | Some Small Fires, 1975
12. Imamu Amiri Baraka | from Hard Facts: Rockefeller's Your
Vice-President and Your Mama Don't Wear No Draws, A New Reality is
Better than a Movie, 1975
13. Erica Huggins | For a Woman, 1972
14. Ken Kesey | A Brief Disclosure, 1975
15. Jackson Mac Low | Guru, Guru, Gate, 1976
16. Charles Amirkhanian | Mushrooms (for John Cage), 1974
17. William Carlos Williams | The Yellow Flower from Pictures from
Brueghel and Other Poems, 1954
18. Allen Ginsberg | Please Master, 1975
19. Imamu Amiri Baraka | from Hard Facts: New York is Everywhere Big, 1975
20. Frank O'Hara | To the Film Industry in Crisis, 1959
21. Taylor Mead | I Was in a Drugstore, 1976
22. Jackie Curtis | The All-American Vampire or How the Bee Sucks, 1975
23. Jack Spicer | from The Holy Grail : The Book of the Death of Arthur, 1965
24. John Cage | Song, Derived from the Journal of Henry David Thoreau, 1976
25. Tom Weatherly | Mud Water Shango, Blues for Frank Swooton, 1965
26. Joanne Kyger | In All This Everyday, 1976
27. Charles Olson | Letter 27: Maximus to Gloucester, 1967
28. W.S. Merwin | Fear, 1975
29. Marueen Owen | When You're Down and Under, 1975
30. Jerome Rothenberg | The Opening of the Horse Song, Number Eleven,
A Total Translation from the Navajo, 1970
31. Ted Berrigan | Today in Ann Arbor, 1975
32. Susan Howe | There is No Good on Earth and Sin is But a Name, 1976
33. Rochelle Owens | excerpt from The Joe Chronicles, Part 2, 1976
34. Bill Knott | Corpse and Beans, 1974
35. Tony Towle | New York Letters, 1976
36. Bernard Heidsieck | Stratimelo, 1966
37. Peter Orlovsky | Compost Piles, 1975


Brion Gysin, UK / US

1. Pistol Poem (1960), 3:40
2. No, poets don't own words (1962), :58
3. Junk is no good baby (1962), 2:03

Raoul Hausmann

1. Phonemes (1956-57), 15:18
2. R.L.Q.S. varie en 3 cascades (1947), 23:28
3. Soundrel (1919), 4:16
4. Conversation imagee avec les lettristes (1947), 7:10

Bernard Heidsieck, France

1. Vaduz, Passepartout no. 22 (1974), 12:00
2. Sisyphe (1977), 4:05
3. Canal Street No. 19 (1976)

Isidore Isou, France

1. Rituel somptueux pour la Seclection des Especes (1965), 2:12

The Kipper Kids, USA

1. Sheik of Araby (1980)

Vasilij Kamenskij, USSR

1. L'Usignolo (1916)

Aleksej Krucenych, USSR

1. dyr bul scyl (1912), :12
2. Kr dei macelli (1920), 1:35
3. Zanzera, veleno (1922), 2:50

Maurice Lemaitre, France

1. La Marche des Barbares Blancs (1965), 3:05

Arrigo Lora-Totino, Italy

1. L'esperienza (1965)
2. Clessidrogramma (1970)
3. Lo stato sono io (1974)
4. Intonazione cromatica (1974)
5. Arrigo Lora-Totino | Chiacchere (1976)

Vladimir Maiakovski, USSR

1. Ordinanza all'esercito dell'arte (1918), 1:54
2. Rumori, rumorini e rumoracci (1913), 1:03
3. Di strada in strada (1913), 1:04

F.T. Marinetti, Italy

1. Battaglia, Peso + Odore, 8:53 (1912)
2. Dune, 6:05 (1914)

Paul McCarthy, USA

1. Boston Bay (1980)

Franz Mon

1. Da du der bist (1973), 13:00

Christian Morgenstern

1. Das Grosse Lalua (1890) / Das Gebet (1905) / Der Rabe Ralf (1905)
/ Igel und Agel (1905) / Fisches nachtgesang (1905), 4:53

Maurizio Nannucci, Italy

1. Definizioni (1976), 4;04

bpNichol

Sound Poems 1966-1980
1. Dada Lama, 2:12 (1966)
2. Pome Poem, 2:34 (1972)
3. 060173, 1:06 (1973)
4. Eight Part Suite, 2:11 (1972)
5. Cosmic Piece for Orchestra & Chorus, 1:58 (1969)
6. Art in Upheval, 5:36 (begun 1979)
7. Generations Generated, 9:32 (1977)
8. Afternoon Attentions,1:44 (1973)
9. "meeln", :23 (1973)
10. Acres Rare Meet, 7:01 (1977)
11. Ballads of the Restless Are, 8:49 (1967)
12. White Text Sure: Version 1, 5:29 (1978)
13. Outsize Reference (1973)
14. Translating Translating Apollinaire 52, 3:50 (1978)
15. The Alphabet Game, 5:23 (1972)
16. Interuppted Nap, 1:55 (1976-80)
17. Appendix (split 7" single)


Ladislav Nov?k

1. Ceterum auterm (1970), 2:10
2. La structure phonetique de la langue tcheque (1970), 2:40

Arthur Petronio

1. Cosmosmose (1965), 14:30

Bern Porter

1. The Last Acts of St. Fuck You (1985), 9:37

Jim Roche

Learning to Count
1. Hippys Are Living Proof, 1971 (3:31)
2. Every Man, Woman, And Child, 1972 (7:53)
3. Fight It Out, 1972 (11:46)
4. Bubble Blower, 1972 (5:08)
5. Straight Razor, 1972 (9:14)
6. Mama Bear, 1972 (8:50)
7. Power Poles, 1973 (3:31)
8. Swoops Down Outta The Sky, 1975 (12:33)
9. Cadillac, 1973 (5:52)
10. Store Up Your Treasures in Heaven, 1974 (7:29)
11. Whatcha Doing Down There Boy, 1975 (7:32)
12. Whatsda Matter Wid Jew, 1977 (5:33)
13. Lucky T's Texaco, 1975 (6:17)


Jerome Rothenberg, US

That Dada Strain
1. Karawane (1:48)
2. A Glass Tube Ecsatcy (2:27)
3. London Onion (1:44)
4. The Holy Words of Tristan Tzara (9:11)
5. Y-V (After Tristan Tzara) (2:01)
The Horse Songs of Frank Mitchell
1. Side A (27:00)
2. Side B (15:00)
Poland 1931
1. The Wedding (3:45)
2. The King of the Jews (1:18)
3. The Beadle's Testimony (1:49)
4. The Rabbi's Testimony (1:51)
5. The 7 Melodies of Esther K. (4:04)
6. Esther K. Comes to America (4:43)

Gerhard Ruhm, Germany

1. Gebet (1954), :40
2. Hymne an lesbierinnen (1956), 2:08
3. Blatter (1965-73), :20
4. Beruhrung (1965-73), :10
5. Verkutze zeitspanne mit melodischen extrakt (1973), 1:20
6. The Bird of Paradise (1975), 5:39

Paul Scheerbart

1. da "Ichliebe dich! Ein eisenbahnroman": Kikakou (1897) / da
"NaProst! Phantastischer Konigsroman" : Zauberspruch I-II (1898) / da
"Immer mutig! Ein Phantasticher Nilpferderoman": Monolog des
Verruckten Mastadons (1902), 2:35

Kurt Schwitters, Switzerland

1. Simultangedicht kaa gee dee (1919) / WW (1922) / boo (1926) / naa
(1926) / bii bull ree (1936) / Obervogelsang (1946) / Niesscherzo e
Hunstenscherzo (1937) / The real disuda of the nightmare (1946), 6:39

Adriano Spatola

1. Hommage a Eric Satie (1976), 7:43

Demetrio Stratos, Greece

1. O Tzitziras o Mitziras (1976), 4:01

Tristan Tzara, Marcel Janco, Richard Hulsenbeck

1. L'amiral cherche une maison a louer (1916), 2:30

Paul de Vree

1. April am Rhein (1966), :47
2. Kids (1974), :53
3. Organon (1965), 4:40
4. Terrena trou bahi (1965), :47

Patrizia Vicinelli, Italy

1. Sette Poemi (1967-76), 1967-76

Benjamin Weismann, USA

1. Hitler Ski Story | 1994 (13:09)

Reese Williams, USA

1. The Sonance Project, Part 1
2. The Sonance Project, Part 2

Il 'Ja Zdanevic

1. scena da "Asino a nolo" (1918), 1:38



U B U W E B / E P C :: M P 3___A R C H I V E
                 http://www.ubu.com/mp3


Sorry for cross-postings.

Please forward this announcement.




From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Oct 12 15:43:23 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2001 15:43:23 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Slammin' TV
Message-ID: <39.1bfeb19a.28f8a1db@aol.com>

Some of you may have seen Taylor Mali perform...he
was always among the top slam poets at the Nationals.
He's got himself discovered... 


Friday October 12 01:23 AM EDT 
Former teacher Mali taking NBC fall 2002 class
By Nellie Andreeva

LOS ANGELES (The Hollywood Reporter) --- NBC has signed poet and teacher 
Taylor Mali to a talent holding deal to develop a series project for him 
targeted for fall 2002.


In addition, Mali has received a script commitment from the network for a 
comedy project described as a contemporary "Dead Poets Society" with touches 
of "Ally McBeal (news - Y! TV)" that will be a co-production with Stu 
Smiley's Comedy Arts Television.


The show, which will tell small emotional stories of what a teacher goes 
through, will reflect Mali's five-year experience as a teacher in New York. 
He has been performing about this in poetry slams for nine years.


The teacher-tuned-comedian caught the attention of Smiley and NBC 
Entertainment executive vp casting Marc Hirschfeld at this year's U.S. Comedy 
Arts Festival in Aspen, Colo., which Smiley co-founded and runs as executive 
director.


Mali is the latest performer at Performance Space NBC -- the network's 
artistic showcase in Manhattan -- to land a deal with the network. Along with 
comedian Greg Giraldo, who inked a deal with NBC in July (HR 7/31), and 
others, Mali was featured at the second annual special showcase set up for 
top NBC entertainment executives in town for the network's upfront 
presentation in May.


"Taylor Mali is a schoolteacher with the soul of a poet," said Hirschfeld, 
architect of the Performance Space NBC project. "He is articulate, 
passionate, inspirational, with a great sense of humor. And he's the kind of 
teacher every parent wishes for their child. We felt these qualities are a 
great fit for NBC."


As a sign of the network's commitment to PS NBC, launched in January 2000 as 
a talent search for hip, unconventional acting and writing talent, NBC has 
re-upped with the venue's New York home, HERE Arts Center, for next year.


Next at PS NBC is the final round of the Four Directions Native American 
talent search, which will feature the finalists in a showcase in New York on 
Nov. 8.


From MNFOXX at aol.com  Sat Oct 13 17:04:52 2001
From: MNFOXX at aol.com (MNFOXX at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 17:04:52 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] My Angel Poems
Message-ID: <74.118bea47.28fa0674@aol.com>

Tell me what you thinks about my angel poems.  Which ones do you like?  Which 
ones do you hate?  Which ones need improving?
---------------------------------
"ANGEL OF LIGHT"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

Brightness of the sun
Glitter of the stars
Glow of the moon
Lumens and watts of the bulb
Angels of Light
May or may not come soon
Or may come in the morning, evening or noon
For an intimate conversation
Or Holy Commune

~Acts 12:7~
And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the 
prison.....
______________________________________________________


"KISSED BY AN ANGEL"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

An angel kissed me
With the wind
Blowing away
Evil built in

An angel kissed me
With the rain
Washing away
Life's hurt and pain

An angel kissed me
With the snow
Delivering God's
Word to and fro

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------

"ANGEL DISTINCTION"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

There is an angel of good
  and one that masquerades; wears a false hood

There is an angel of dreams
  and one that evokes nightmares; screams

There is an angel of God's grace
  and one that lives in hell's place

There is an angel of hope
  and one that is of satanic scope

There is an angel of wonder
  and one that makes you lie, cheat, gamble and squander

There is an angel of safety
  and one that puts you in jeopardy; false security

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------

"ANGELS, ANGELS"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

Angels, Angels
Messengers of peace and hope
Your presence is heavenly, it's dope

Angels, Angels
Delivering messages everywhere
Words of wisdom you do share

Angels, Angels
By my bed
Above my bed
Telling the world what God has said

Angels, Angels
Far & Near
Alleviating despair, doubt, and fear
To you I give thanks and cheer

Angels, Angels 
Up above
Thanks for communicating God's love

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------

"HEAVENLY ANGEL"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

I am a heavenly angel that walks the
Earth
Only God knows what I'm 
Worth

I am a messanger
Divine
Delivering poetry so
Fine
For you to enjoy, feast or
Dine
Let the wisdom penetrate your body, sould, and
Mine
Let the words penetrate your system and
spine

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------

"ACTIVE"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

Active in the daytime
Butterfly

Active all the time
Angels

Both with
wings
Both are GOD's creative
things
Give thanks and praise to the
King

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------

"BEHOLD"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

A rainbow in the sky
Behold
It is an angel stopping by
Sent by a heavenly guy
I'm in amazement; on a high
A beautiful act of nature
A divine allure

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------

"ANGELS BESIDE"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

Beside the lake, beside the tree
     Flying and dancing in the breeze
Beside my bed, above my head
     Telling me what God has said
Beside the truck, beside the car
     Protecting God's children near and far
Beside an apartment building, beside a house
     Roaming; going for a browse

Angels beside
     Angels reside
          Angels coincide
               Angels nationwide

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------

"ANGELS ONSHORE"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

I see the sand on the beach
     Then comes angels ministering; to teach

I see the waves upon the shore
     Then comes angels who I adore

I see the shells on the sand
     The comes angels; God's helping hand

I see the beaches trampled floor
     Then comes angels thru a heavenly shore
     Straight from the Lord, our Savior

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------

"ANGEL CADENCE"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

Angels: one two three
     watching over me

Angels: four five six
     here, there, in the mix

Angels:  seven eight nine
     heavenly and divine
     wonderful by design

Angels:  ten twelve fourteen
     On the scene
     Doing their daily routine
     Making life peaceful, calm and serene

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------

"ANGEL LOVE"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

My angel up
HIGH
That can see my sadness
And distress
And hear me
CRY
That also sings me a sweet
LULLABY

My angel in heaven
ABOVE
Thanks for soothing my blues
And showing me
LOVE

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------

"AN'JUL"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

VISITING
     Abraham & Lot
WRESTLING
     with Jacob
GUIDING
     Tobit
PROTECTING
     individuals or nations
PERFORMING
     a mission of God
ANNOUNCING
     the incarnation of the Virgin Mary
REVEALING
     the resurrection
RECORDING
     good deeds
NOTING
     transgressions
ACTING
     as if sent by God
BELIEVING
     that Monique's the best

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------

"ANGEL MUSIC"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

When a baby is born and
CRIES
Angel music

When a body 
DIES
Angel melody

When you become saved from sinning and telling
LIES
Angel harmony

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------

"CHRISTMAS ANGEL"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

Christmas Angel
on top of the
TREE
everything we do, you will
SEE
you wanna be up high close to God, his
MAJESTY
overlooking a joyous holiday
one for friends and
FAMILY
peace, love, and
GAIETY

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------

"IN SEARCH OF AN ANGEL"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

In search of an angel
here I am
a miss, a mam

In search of an angel
here I be
spreading my words and poetry

In search of an angel
here I is
delivering a heavenly hug and kiss

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------  

"ANGEL BEING"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

Beings of holy light
Beings of strength, power and might
Beings of oversight
Beings of hope and delight
Beings of heavenly height
Beings of knowledge and insight
Please watch over me when I sleep tonight

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------

"ANGEL PRICE"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

Be kind to others; be
NICE
Think about the consequences of your action; think
TWICE
Get your thoughts and actions in place and be
CONCISE
Let the bible be your guide; a spiritual and holy
DEVICE
Give your life and love to the Lord
And let that be your earthly
SACRIFICE
Come judgement day you will be in hell or a heavenly
PARADISE
Angels & God are watching over you; you will one day pay a
PRICE

______________________________________________________

ANGEL HUG
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

When my mother hugs me
When my father hugs me
When my brother hugs me
When my nephew hugs me
I am getting an earthly angel hug
A family cuddle or snug
A parental and sibbling lovebug

______________________________________________________


"ANGEL MONIQUE"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

I am an angel
but I have no wings
but I soar to another level
that is what poetry brings

I am an angel
but there is no flying or flight
but words of wisdom; 31 years on insight

I am an angel
but I have no halo
one day I will leave my legacy when I die; I go

I am an angel
Angel Monique
So praise the gifted being
For I am sweet
For I an unique
For I am an earthly treat

______________________________________________________

"BE AN ANGEL"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

Be an angel, each and every day.
Have a smile and kind words to say.

Be an angel, every minute of every hour.
Be sweet not sour.

Be an angel, to those in need.
Don't be consumed with sin and greed.

Be an angel by just saying "hi."
Entertain the angels and God, the heavenly guy.

______________________________________________________

"THE REAPERS"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

The angels are the reapers
The angels are earth and heaven creepers
The angels are the messengers
The angels are the ministers
The angels are overseers
The angels are bearers
The angels are servers
The angels are severers
The angels are trumpeters
The angels are gatherers
The angels are Godly creatures


~Matthew 13:39~ 
The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; 
and the reapers are the angels.
______________________________________________________

"THE ANGEL GABRIEL"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

The angel Gabriel
Was sent to speak unto thee
And was sent unto a city of Galilee
And to shew thee a glad tiding
On earth and in heaven residing
Back and forth flying, sliding, and gliding
Cloud joy riding
Protection providing
Uniting mankind and not dividing
Carrying out God's commands; abiding


~Luke 1:19~ 
And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the 
presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad 
tidings.
______________________________________________________


"LOVE THY"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

Love thy neighbour 
Love thy God
Love thy people
Love thy self
Love thy angel squad
Love thy church steeple
Love for all is
Heavenly wealth


~Leviticus 19:18~ 
Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy 
people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD. 
______________________________________________________

"THOU SHALT LOVE"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

Love the Lord; Love God
and keep his charge
and his statutes
and his judgements
and his commandments
ALWAYS
and to cleave unto him
and obey his legion of angels
and practice what the Bible teaches
and listen to what the Pastor preaches
EVERYDAY
and cast out the devils and the demons
and don't commit adultery; impregnate another's egg with your semen
and keep your heart, soul, and mind true
and now bow your head to
PRAY


~Deuteronomy 11:1~ 
Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his 
statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, always.
______________________________________________________

"THE SON OF GOD"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee
The power of the Highest shall overshadow thee
The angel was sent to speak unto thee
And to shew thee
Glad tidings
Confiding
That the Lord is with thee
The deliverer of thee
The ruler of thee
The judge of thee
For all eternity
The almighty

~Luke 1:35~
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee 
and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy 
ting which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
______________________________________________________

"THUNDER & LIGHTENING"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

When it thunders and lightening
God must be furious
He must be mad
Cause his children
On earth must have been bad
We better get our act together
And make the Lord our Savior glad
Or we will be going to hell
And become an underworld fiery pit nomad
Instead of a heavenly angel grad
Shape up my people; my comrades


~Revelation 8:5~
And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast 
it into the earth; and there were voices, and thunderings and lightenings and 
an earthquake. 
______________________________________________________


"Asleep & Awake"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

I dream when I sleep
And my guardian angel keeps
Guard above my bed

I daydream when I am awake
Of calm blue waters
And gentle summer breezes
And green mountainous hills
And tall dark muscular nubain men
And puffy white heavenly clouds
I think to myself that life is great
And say "Amen" out loud


~Genesis 31:11~ 
And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, 
Here am I.

~Matthew 2:19~ 
But when Herod was dead, behold, an angel of the Lord appeareth in a dream to 
Joseph in Egypt
______________________________________________________

"MISSION POSSIBLE"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

I don't dream
Impossible dreams
Only that which is attainable
By myself or with the help of others as a team

I dream of things within my reach
I can do anything the
angels tell me thru God's word they teach
I'll accomplish them one by one
And I'll be happy, peachy peach


~Mark 9:23~ 
Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him 
that believeth.

_______________________________________

"THE KEY"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

An angel came to me in a dream
And said, "Monique you will be all you want to be
A well known author of poetry
A wife and mother with a heavenly family
However love and trust and believe in God is the key
Then you'll be blessed with plenty."

_______________________________________

"ANGEL BELIEF"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

In October 2000 I had some growths removed 
Fibroids, endometrial tissue, and cysts
I know an angel was definitely in my midst
I made it thru surgery ok, fine and dandy
God made one of his angels handy
To deliver his love sealed with a kiss


~Matthew 4:23~ 
And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching 
the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner 
of disease among the people.
_______________________________________

"MR UNIVERSE"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

Twinkle twinkle little star
Up in heaven God you are
While angels are flying near and far
Protecting me as I drive a car
And when I'm tipsy after leaving a club or bar
And cleaning up broken glass from a broken cookie jar
And leaving my door mistakenly unlocked for a crime spree bizarre
You are a fortress, shield, and light; you are solar


~Revelation 18:1~
And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having 
great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. 

_______________________________________

"EARTH ANGELS & FALLEN ANGELS"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

EARTH ANGELS
Are monagoamous & faithful
FALLEN ANGELS
Are those that commit adultery
Are going to hell
EARTH ANGELS
Are free from sin
FALLEN ANGELS
Are triffling men

~Exodus 20:14~ 
Thou shalt not commit adultery.

~Proverbs 6:32~ 
But whoso committeth adultery with a woman lacketh understanding: he [that] 
doeth it destroyeth his own soul.

~Mark 8:38~ 
Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous 
and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he 
cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.
_______________________________________

"GUILTY"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

God is around thee
Guilty
God is within thee
Guilty
God is beside thee
Guilty
Guilty of following God's statutes and commandments
Guilty of reading and embracing the bible
Guilty of believing angels exist
Guilty of knowing a higher power is in the midst
Guilty I confess and
Deserve to be punished or given blame
Guilty of loving God, a consuming fire, a consuming flame

_______________________________________

"FRIENDS ARE ANGELS"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

Friends are angels
And jewels
Valuable
Precious
Special
A gem
Cherish them

_______________________________________

"BANK OF GOD"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

The Bank of God is an establishment
for receiving thanks and praises

The Bank of God is an establishment
for keeping peace, love, and unity

The Bank of God is an establishment
for issuing angels; regulatory representatives

The Bank of God is an establishment
for lending a helping hand; guidance; direction

God examines, verifies, approves or rejects my daily transactions
God's commandments, ordinances is my overdraft protections
I make sure I keep my life, my account in good standing, good condition

My account has been open for several years
And only can be closed by God and my loved ones will shed their tears

_______________________________________

"LET GO, LET GOD"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

Let go of bigotry, prejudice, and hate
Let God's love and kindness set you straight

Let go of your worries and concern
Let God be your comforter and relief that you yearn

Let go, take a deep cleansing breath & release
Let God be your holy officer, your spiritual police

Let go of your headaches, tension, and stress
Let God calm you and clean up your daily mess

Let go of negativity
Let God be your positivity

Let go of your frown
Let God turn your frown upside down

Let go of those things that give you trouble
Let God inflate your life and be your helium, your air, your balloon, your 
bubble

Let go of impurities of drugs, cigarettes, pork or swine
Let God be your filter for all things divine

Let go lying, cheating, stealing, and sin
Let God open new doors for you to come in

Let go, let God
And his angels be your glorious squad
Remember to give thanks & praise; accolade

_______________________________________


"LOOK, LISTEN, KNOW"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

Look around
God's life is everywhere
Like the sunlight that dances across the leaves of trees
Like honey and bumble bees
Like the birth of a baby, a teen, and a adult; a person grows
Like the angel going from heaven to earth; something wonderful flows

Listen up
God's life is everywhere
Like the whisper of the wind
Like the cry of a baby
Like the laughter of kids in the park at play
Like sports fans shouting "hurray"

Know
God's life is everywhere
Within you, within me
Beside you, inside thee
An awesome God, Almighty

Look, listen, and know
That you are not only precious to God
You are one with God
And God loves you so

_________________________________________________________

"THE VOICE OF THE LORD"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

The voice of the Lord
SENDETH
the angels

The voice of the Lord
BREAKETH
the cedars

The voice of the Lord
DIVIDETH
the flames of fire

The voice of the Lord
SHAKETH
the wilderness

The voice of the Lord
MAKETH
the hinds to calve

The voice of the Lord
DISCOVERETH
the forests

The voice of the Lord
LOVETH
the human race

The voice of the Lord
WANTETH
peace, love, and unity

The voice of the Lord
INSPIRETH
faithfulness, marriage, and monogamy

The voice of the Lord
COMMANDETH
oneness, harmony, and tranquility

The voice of the Lord
DESERVETH
praise, honor and faith unconditionally

The voice of the Lord
SPEAKETH
with wisdom and honestly

_________________________________________________________

"WHAT MY ANGEL WEARS"
~By Monique Nicole Fox
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

My angel wears an afro
My angel wears a halo
My angel wears skin negro

My angel wears cloth kente
My angel wears gold plenty

My angel wears a big smile
My angel wears Nikes or Reebok to go that extra mile

My angel wears wings for flight
My angel wears armor for battles; to fight

My angel wears God's holy shield
When visiting me on earth's field

_______________________________________

"MIROR, MIROR"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

Miror, miror on the wall
Reflecting a Nubian Queen, plus size & tall

Miror, miror on the dresser
Reflecting a woman of greatness, bless her

Miror, miror in my make-up case
Reflecting an angelic face

Miror, miror on a countertop of a store
Reflecting a woman with goals & ambition, who wants more

Miror, miror that reflects
ME
Thank you God for giving me sight to
SEE
Thank you God for letting me exist, for letting me
BE

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------

"BLACK ANGEL"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

Angel eyes
of sight
reaching heavenly poetic heights

Angel face 
of the black race

Angel body
of the nubian hottie

Angel feet
of a woman who is so sweet

Angel smile
of God's child

Angel hair
of someone who cares

Angel Arms
of a cutie of charm

Angel neck 
of a woman who demands respect

Angel features
of mine
whose providence is simply divine

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------

"BROWN ANGEL"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

I am an angel that is
BROWN
A nubian goddess
I wear a 
CROWN
I don't sport white but a kente cloth
GOWN
The prettiest black sista in the Silver Spring
TOWN
I uplift others and don't put them
DOWN
I love to play with words, verbs, and 
NOUNS
I have web pages all over AOL's
HOMETOWN
This is another
BREAKDOWN
This is another
LOWDOWN

______________________________________________________


"BLACK GOD, BLACK JESUS"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

Black God, Black Jesus
It pleases me
It pleases us
That you are everywhere
On earth and in heaven
On the train and on the bus
Then you send your legion of angels
Which is a plus
To minister and discuss
For sometimes we do go astray and
Not worth a cuss
Thanks for putting us in line
With you thundering and lightening fuss


~John 12:29~
The people therefore, that stood by and heard it, said that it thundered: 
others said, an angel spake to him
______________________________________________________

"McVeigh's No Angel"
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/poetryandpoetsofgod

McVeigh was sentenced to death by lethal
INJECTION
McVeigh is now in hell; not in a heavenly
DIRECTION
McVeigh is an angel
REJECTION

McVeigh was evil
who chose his course; he made a tragic
SELECTION

Good bye, good ridding
You disease, you terrible human
INFECTION

 


From Cadaly at aol.com  Sun Oct 14 12:06:18 2001
From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 12:06:18 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] My Angel Poems
Message-ID: <140.3119434.28fb11fa@aol.com>

The angel poems have turned up on a number of lists, including Cassie Lewis' 
list.  Please send an e-mail to Ms. Fox telling her to participate in the 
ongoing discussion or desist.

Thanks,
Catherine Daly
cadaly at pacbell.net
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From anastasios.kozaitis at verizon.net  Sun Oct 14 12:29:41 2001
From: anastasios.kozaitis at verizon.net (anastasios.kozaitis at verizon.net)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 12:29:41 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Why W. speaks highly of Islam?
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011014122839.00a08cf0@mail.verizon.net>

W.'S UNRELIABLE ADVISER ON ISLAM.
Blind Faith
by Franklin Foer

Post date 10.11.01 | Issue date 10.22.01
Cleveland-Marshall College of Law Professor David Forte might seem an 
unorthodox choice for the role of presidential adviser on Islam. For one 
thing, he's not Muslim. For another, he doesn't speak Arabic. His academic 
specialty is U.S. constitutional law, and he readily admits that he 
"dabble[s]" in Islamic jurisprudence. "That's why I call myself a student 
and not an expert," he told me.
But thanks to the aggressive promotion of his work by two influential 
conservative think tanks, the Hudson Institute and the Heritage Foundation, 
Forte's writings on Islam have found their way onto the reading lists of 
Defense Undersecretary Douglas Feith and the National Security Council's 
Elliot Abrams. UN Ambassador John Negroponte has requested his oeuvre; 
State Department officials have quizzed him on his views. And when 
President Bush addressed Congress last month, he seemed to pluck whole 
phrases from Forte's writings. Or, as one official told The Washington 
Post: The president's speech was "Forte-ed."
In particular Bush has embraced Forte's argument that Al Qaeda are 
theological heretics. They practice, Forte contends, an esoteric strain of 
Islam that traces to a seventh-century sect. "[The terrorists] are not 
religious," Forte told the Post. "They are a new form of fascist tyranny." 
But Forte is a less than reliable source. The problem isn't just his weak 
background in modern Islamic politics; it's his ulterior ideological 
motive. Forte doesn't just want to redeem Islam from its critics. As a 
Catholic conservative who serves on a Vatican task force on strengthening 
family, he wants to redeem religious orthodoxy itself--or, at least, 
cleanse it of the extremist stain. "Nothing this evil could be religious," 
he is fond of saying. It's a bromide that jibes perfectly with Bush's own 
unabashed fondness for religiosity of all stripes. Unfortunately, it may be 
wrong.
Until last month Forte's primary claim to fame was his writing on Catholic 
legal theory. Along with a growing band of conservative 
scholars--Princeton's Robert P. George, Tulsa University's Russell 
Hitinger--Forte promoted Thomas Aquinas's theology of natural law. America, 
they argue, was founded by men who agreed with Aquinas on the primacy of 
transcendent divine law. But secular politicians have junked up the 
founders' system, adding gratuitous and wicked laws. "Faith is an outlaw in 
the public square," Forte lectured in 1996 at the Heritage Foundation. In 
the Cleveland State Law Review in 1990, he compared government regulation 
to the Pharisees, the rabbis who challenged Jesus. And when the laws of God 
conflict with the laws of man, there's no question which side Forte takes. 
He has proposed a doctrine called "justified non-compliance," which allows 
citizens to "refuse to abide by" laws they consider onerous or morally 
reprehensible.
Forte's interest in Islam began in law school with a B+ paper in a 
comparative jurisprudence class at Columbia, which he later published. As 
an academic and fellow at the Heritage Foundation, he continued to write 
the occasional law review essay--on such subjects as the standing of 
Islamic law in American courts, the Orientalist Joseph Schacht, and 
attitudes toward theft in sharia (the body of Islamic laws). Only in the 
1990s did his interest move beyond the theoretical. After assisting a pro 
bono immigration case on behalf of Pakistani asylum seekers, he began to 
write passionately about Islamic persecution of Christians.
Forte quickly found himself part of a growing movement, as former Reagan 
aides Michael Horowitz and Gary Bauer helped turn Christian persecution 
into one of the religious right's signature issues. But they soon faced a 
problem: Islamic regimes reacted to the criticism by calling the 
conservatives anti-Muslim bigots. It was Forte, according to Horowitz, who 
figured out how to beat the rap. Henceforth the conservative activists 
would cast themselves as Islamophiles, praising the religion at every turn 
and dismissing the Islamic persecutors as traitors to their faith. As Forte 
explained in his 1999 book on Islamic law, "Though radicals often create an 
effigy of the West as a 'devil,' their real animus is against traditional 
Islam."
It hasn't always been clear to which Muslim "radicals" Forte is referring . 
In the past his chief targets have been regimes like those of Pakistan and 
Sudan that oppress non-Muslims domestically. More recently, as Osama bin 
Laden has taken center stage, Forte has adapted the argument to apply to 
him. But the basic point--as articulated in a series of law review 
articles, op-eds, and congressional testimony--remains the same: The 
Islamic militants aren't true Muslims at all; they find their "inspiration" 
in a seventh-century sect of puritan thugs called the Kharijites. "[They] 
held that any Muslim who commits a sin was an apostate, an unbeliever who 
could never re-enter the fold of Islam and must be killed." For over 50 
years, as Forte describes it, the Kharijites ferociously opposed both the 
developing Sunni and Shia traditions of Islam--going so far as to 
assassinate Ali, one of the competitors for Mohammed's mantle.
The historical analogy is deeply comforting. Today's extremists, in Forte's 
telling, are theologically marginal and far removed from the rest of Islam. 
They represent, as he put it in a column posted on the Heritage 
Foundation's website after the attacks, "[a] tradition that Islam early on 
rejected as opposed to the universal message of its Prophet." And those who 
say otherwise simply don't get religion. "We have a highly secularized 
elite in media and government and the academy. When they talk about 
religion it is often in a superficial and deprecating manner. When they 
talk about Southern Baptists, they talk about gay bashing. When they talk 
about Islam, they talk about jihad. They patronizingly assume that violence 
is an essential part of Islam."
But serious scholars of Islam dispute Forte's interpretation. When I sent 
his writings to Marius Deeb, a professor of modern Arab political thought 
at Johns Hopkins University's Paul H. Nitze School of Advanced 
International Studies, he told me, "This guy doesn't know what he's talking 
about." When I approached Frank Vogel, Harvard's Islamic law specialist, he 
said, "Forte produces some useful synthetic essays." Then, after reading 
Forte's analysis of bin Laden, he was less generous: "His argument is a 
gross simplification." None of the other top Islam scholars I polled were 
willing to take their swipes on the record. But off the record they weren't 
any more charitable. A sampling of the derisive comments: "He's not very 
well informed" and "I'm afraid it's rubbish."
Indeed, it turns out there are significant problems with Forte's analysis. 
Consider the role of the Kharijites, whom Forte says serve as Al Qaeda's 
inspiration. In fact, bin Laden and his Egyptian theorist Ayman Zawahiri 
rarely, if ever, invoke the Kharijites. (Among contemporary Islamic 
extremists only the Algerian Groupe Islamique Arm? have held up the 
Kharijites as a model.) Al Qaeda's manifestos more frequently filch from 
the teachings of the thirteenth-century puritanical jurist Ibn Taymiyyah, 
who, as it happens, despised Kharijism.
Forte also ignores the influence of Wahhabism, one of modern Islam's 
central movements. Emerging in eighteenth-century Arabia, Wahhabism called 
for a new asceticism, violently opposing decorations in Mosques and 
celebrations of the prophet's birthday. And it has at times sanctioned 
violence against "infidels," both outside the religion and within. For 
decades the Saudi royal family has aggressively promoted Wahhabism by, 
among other things, financing Wahhabi religious schools throughout the 
Muslim world. Bin Laden was born Wahhabi, and the Taliban--who graduated 
from some of those Saudi-funded Wahhabi schools--have undergone a period of 
what Olivier Roy, an Islamologist at the Centre National de la Recherche 
Scientifique, calls "Wahhabisation." (Witness their destruction of the 
Bamiyan Buddha, in keeping with Wahhabi prohibitions against graven 
images.) You can even see traces of the sect's influence in hijacker 
Mohammed Atta's will, which requests Wahhabi burial rites. But you wouldn't 
pick up any of this from Forte, who never mentions Wahhabism in his 
analyses. As Deeb told me, "He misses the real story."
Perhaps that's because, unlike the Kharijites, Wahhabis aren't marginal. 
Within the United States, according to Hisham al-Kabbani, head of the 
Washington-based Islamic Supreme Counsel, almost 80 percent of mosques are 
presided over by Wahhabi Imams. The vast majority of them, of course, don't 
support bin Laden. But understanding Al Qaeda's Wahhabi roots exposes the 
simplicity of Forte's distinctions between good and bad, or real and fake, 
fundamentalist Islam.
But Forte isn't the only one with a deep desire to acquit religious 
orthodoxy of any bad deeds. The president wants to as well, which is why he 
has parroted Forte's arguments. Liberals, who often assume that 
evangelicals disdain other religions, have been surprised at Bush's 
Islamophilia since September 11. At nearly every turn the president utters 
homilies like "Islam is peace." He brags about his copy of the Koran, a 
gift from the Imam Muzammil H. Siddiqi. Speaking off the cuff at the 
Washington Islamic Center on September 17, he even posed as a Koranic 
exegete: "The English translation is not as eloquent as the original 
Arabic, but let me quote from the Koran itself..."
But this isn't surprising at all. Ecumenicism is a hallmark of Bush's brand 
of evangelicalism and of his political program. His faith-based initiative 
called for a popular religious front--"churches and mosques and synagogues 
... that warm the cold to life"--against social decay. During the campaign, 
W.'s speeches trumpeted "the transforming power of faith," laying bare one 
of his first principles: Believers, no matter their denomination, are 
better people than nonbelievers. That's what Forte believes as well. But it 
is an article of faith--not the basis for a serious and honest exploration 
of a religious tradition that Americans desperately need to better 
understand. Of course nobody wants Bush to declare war on Islam, or on the 
tens of millions who practice it and have no sympathy for Al Qaeda. But if 
the United States is to win a war on terrorism it needs to understand the 
enemy--which means acknowledging the extent to which religion influences 
terrorists and their supporters.
The Hudson Institute's Michael Horowitz, Forte's biggest booster, describes 
his significance this way: "A lot of people make the statement that being a 
believer makes you a better man. Most people don't believe it. But Forte 
helps you say it with conviction." But saying it with conviction doesn't 
make it any more true.

FRANKLIN FOER is an associate editor at The New Republic.
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From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Oct 14 14:03:12 2001
From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 14:03:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Anthology Announcement
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEDBEDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3BC9D360.2349@nut-n-but.net>

forgive the HYPERBOLEEEEE but it is appropriate
   for this is an announcement of Volume One 
    of the FIRST MAJOR (American) anthology   
of visual and related poetries in some 30 years.

              $24 postpaid from

                       Bob Grumman
                       1708 Hayworth Road
                       Port Charlotte FL 33952

         also available through Small Press Distribution

                    WRITING TO BE SEEN
            edited by Bob Grumman and Crag Hill

                    ISBN 0-87924-083-0

Contributors: Carol Stetser, Scott Helmes, Bill Keith, Joel Lipman,
Guy R. Beining, Marilyn R. Rosenberg, David Cole, Kathy Ernst, 
Karl Young, Harry Polkinhorn, William L. Fox and Karl Kempton,
each of whom has twenty pages of works and an introductory
Artist's Statement that is in some cases ten pages in length

500 copies published for The Runaway Spoon Press and Score 
Publications by Light & Dust; 328 11 by 8.5 inch pages; glossy
color cover.  A must for any serious student of visual poetry &
a probable collectible.  Volume Two is under way.  Contributors 
to that will be John Vieira, Miekal And, Liz Was, Michael Basinski, 
Crag Hill, Bob Grumman, John M. Bennett, Paul Zelevansky, Irving 
Weiss, Richard Kostelanetz and Jonathan Brannen.

                                                  --Bob G.




From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Oct 14 15:48:49 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 15:48:49 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] My Angel Poems
Message-ID: <a0.1bcb5cb4.28fb4621@aol.com>

Note: You are invited to post your own poems occasionally; 
but please limit yourself to one poem per month. 
(from NewPoetry List Info Page)
As was mentioned some time ago, the exception 
to this guideline is a case when one's poem
fits into the particular topic being discussed.
The "invitation" is genuine...poems by listmembers
are welcome...but the guideline suggests that the list 
not be used as a venue for personal promotion. 
Finnegan  


From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Sun Oct 14 16:39:56 2001
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 15:39:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Billy Collins
Message-ID: <200110142043.f9EKh9040849@mx5.mx.voyager.net>

Yesterday I picked up our new laureate's new & selected, *Sailing Alone
Around the Room*.  Here's my book report.  

The new poems, which number 20, are absolutely of a piece with earlier BC
work.  If you hate Collins's poetry, this volume will not change your mind. 
If you like his stuff, as I do, you'll be particularly glad, I think, to
have between covers such new pieces as "Dharma" (one of the better dog poems
I've seen lately), "Man Listening to Disc," and the truly delightful
""Reading An Anthology of Chinese Poems of the Sung Dynasty, I Pause to
Admire the Length and Clarity of Their Titles."  

I find it very hard to describe what I like about Collins's poems.  I agree
with John Updike's blurb that they are "more serious than they seem," but
that's just a part of it.  While there is an undertow to many of his best
poems, there are also quite a number that seem fairly unadulterated in their
devotion to pleasure and escape, often of the most bookish variety.  He's
certainly one of the most allusive poets around, though never grim or
hectoring about it.   Collins is very determinedly a backyard sort of poet,
avoiding the grandiose & didactic at all costs, and devoted to the various
pleasures of an intellectual and artistic life:  good food, music, art,
literature, etc. (Has any truly popular poet ever written more unabashed
metapoetry, I wonder?)  There's a satiric edge sometimes, but of the most
gentle sort.  

By my lights, Collins has chosen well from his previous collections. 
*Picnic, Lightning* gets the widest representation, as it deserves, and *The
Apple That Astonished Paris* the narrowest, also fittingly.  Most of my
favorites are here:  "Marginalia," "Shoveling Snow With Buddha," "Lines
Composed Over 3000 Miles From Tintern Abbey," "On Turning Ten," "Aristotle,"
"Nostalgia," "The Blues," "Nightclub," "Workshop," "Forgetfulness," and
"Some Days."  I miss a few poems, such as "The Many Faces of Jazz," but
Collins's work tends toward consistency, so such distinctions are difficult.
 

At 172 pages, this is not a particularly abundant collection.  I wouldn't
have minded a couple dozen more poems.  I wonder how much Collins's & Random
House's highly publicized problems with his previous publishers might have
contributed to the relative slimness of this book.  And (does anyone know?)
I wonder what Collins's first two books (*Video Poems* and *Pokerface*)
might be like?  They are unrepresented here.  

Here's one tidbit:

READING AN ANTHOLOGY OF CHINESE POEMS OF THE SUNG DYNASTY, I PAUSE TO ADMIRE
THE LENGTH AND CLARITY OF THEIR TITLES

It seems these poets have nothing
up their ample sleeves
they turn over so many cards so early,
telling us before the first line
whether it is wet or dry,
night or day, the season the man is standing in,
even how much he has had to drink.

Maybe it is autumn and he is looking at a sparrow.
Maybe it is snowing on a town with a beautiful name.

 "Viewing Peonies at the Temple of Good Fortune
on a Cloudy Afternoon" is one of Sun Tung Po's.
"Dipping Water from the River and Simmering Tea"
is another one, or just
"On a Boat, Awake at Night."

And Lu Yu takes the simple rice cake with
"In a Boat on a Summer Evening
I Heard the Cry of a Waterbird.
It Was Very Sad and Seemed To Be Saying
My Woman Is Cruel - Moved, I Wrote This Poem."

There is no iron turnstile to push against here
as with headings like "Vortex on a String,"
"The Horn of Neurosis," or whatever.
No confusingly inscribed welcome mat to puzzle over.

Instead, "I Walk Out on a Summer Morning
to the Sound of Birds and a Waterfall"
is a beaded curtain brushing over my shoulders.

And "Ten Days of Spring Rain Have Kept Me Indoors"
is a servant who shows me into the room
where a poet with a thin beard 
is sitting on a mat with a jug of wine

whispering something about clouds and cold wind,
about sickness and the loss of friends.

How easy he has made it for me to enter here,
to sit down in a corner,
cross my legs like his, and listen.

_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________


From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Oct 14 17:36:16 2001
From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:36:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Billy Collins
References: <200110142043.f9EKh9040849@mx5.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <3BCA0550.3EB9@nut-n-but.net>

I don't "hate" Collins.  I find him a good minor poet.  But
I resent the fact that he is financially and statooznikally 
successful, and the poets I admire not (which, yes, is not
particularly his fault--except that now that he has a platform,
he could do something for his superiors in poetry, and does not).

Further comment: he seems to me to be a reflective, sensitive,
sensible commentator on life more than a poet.  He uses poetry 
to dress up his comments, which does increase their attractiveness, 
but it's that people find his outlook agreeable (and its expression
straightforward) that accounts for his popularity, not anything he 
does as a poet.

                                              --Bob G.



From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Oct 14 18:16:09 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:16:09 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] WHAT POETRY IS ALL ABOUT
Message-ID: <2b.1cb05ae4.28fb68a9@aol.com>

After receiving a droll flyer for Greg Kuzma's
WHAT POETRY IS ALL ABOUT (Blue Scarab
Press) I bit & ordered a copy--
It's funny in places, worth browsing through 
as a release from more serious reading...
and perhaps the book's primary purpose is
to help poets laugh at their lot in life. But the book
is at least 1/3 too long for it's own good...it needs 
an editor. (Better yet Kuzma should have read it 
to an audience and had someone take notes as 
to which bits got the best laughs.) The book is 
constructed like an obiter scripta: lots of quotes, 
asides, lists, short commentaries...and a running joke 
about coffee drinking. ("Whenever I read a poem I can tell 
exactly how many cups of coffee the poet had when 
she wrote it." -GK) 
Here Kuzma is having some fun with editors...

SOME OF THE EDITOR'S GREATEST AND PERHAPS
ONLY PLEASURES ARE THE FOLLOWING:

1. 
Writing a letter which begins " We found much to admire
in these, and hope you send others soon."

2. 
Rejecting poems by another editor who has recently rejected
his poems.

3. 
Printing three or four second-rate at best poems by a famous
name-which-glows-in-the-dark poet.

4. 
Making a "discovery" of a sewer-pipe salesman from West Bend.

5. 
Writing cryptic, if not caustic, reviews of poets who write a 
million times better than she does even in her dreams.

6. 
Making people wait.

7. 
Printing crud on excellent high-quality textured paper.

& on it goes to point #33....
but I think you get the idea.
Finnegan



From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Oct 14 18:28:51 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 18:28:51 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Help w/finding a poem
Message-ID: <126.5990d8c.28fb6ba3@aol.com>

Subject: Help w/finding a poem
 I have what I believe to be lines
from a Denise Levertov poem:
>
> Grief is a black hole we walk around by day and
fall into at night
>
> (it may be a close paraphrase). Word searching
Google, spot checking
> collections and consulting reference books to no
avail, I prevail upon the
> collective memory of your subscribers.
>
> Thanks for putting this query out there.
>
> Elizabeth Davis


From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com  Sun Oct 14 20:46:45 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:46:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Billy Collins
Message-ID: <20011015004646.12C5836F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

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From JforJames at aol.com  Sun Oct 14 21:33:38 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 21:33:38 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: first time
Message-ID: <21.129aca7a.28fb96f2@aol.com>

In a message dated 10/12/01 4:03:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
khodges at softhome.net writes:

<< Another I really
 loved:  Jack Gilbert's 'The Great Fires'.
  >>
Kim,
best book of the last decade, bar none.
Finnegan


From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Sun Oct 14 22:04:03 2001
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 21:04:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jack Gilbert
Message-ID: <200110150159.f9F1xAh32218@mx3.mx.voyager.net>

Jim, care to say more about Gilbert and what you love in his work?  I admit
that he's one of those poets I've never quite gotten, while many readers I
respect really go for his poems.  

David G.  
_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________

----------
>From: JforJames at aol.com
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: first time
>Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001, 8:33 PM
>

>In a message dated 10/12/01 4:03:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
>khodges at softhome.net writes:
>
><< Another I really
> loved:  Jack Gilbert's 'The Great Fires'.
>  >>
>Kim,
>best book of the last decade, bar none.
>Finnegan


From antrobin at clipper.net  Sun Oct 14 23:11:48 2001
From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 20:11:48 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] poem
References: <200110150159.f9F1xAh32218@mx3.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <011401c15527$2267d480$f3aeefd8@0021936706>

O reader, find a reason to riddle
me this: was the end of our end
that far from the beginning,
or is it where we left it, swimming
beneath the Autzen bridge, struggling
upstream, bobbing and surfacing,
finally displaced by a bright yellow leaf?

O reader, did you know I found
your double, doubly beautiful last night
in a bar, her name the same as yours, one
"l" and ample body and same half-smile,
tentative and droll?

O reader, are you
writing well and living fat with dancing
and two aging dogs?  Do you still pray?

O reader, did you read about the blowing
up and falling down, and did you wonder
as I wondered, if my town was safe
and if I had another lover who wondered
these same things aloud?

O reader, does your scent still on my bed
portend a sad reunion years hence-
after a bout with magic realism, we both
settle into singular lives, and suddenly
meet for drinks, discuss our children
and our youth?

O reader, if you're reading this, O yes,
I'm still the crass and rumpled
wretch I was when we began our end,
O years ago-the first furtive touch,
the howling and the February wind.



__________________
"The assumption that a poem must always have the concept of a speaking voice
narrating its feeling--well that seemed and still seems an awfully narrow
mandate for verbal art."
Charles Bernstein

"You can't handle the truth. No truth-handler you.  I deride your
truth-handling abilities!"
Sideshow Bob Terwilliger



From duemer at clarkson.edu  Sun Oct 14 23:23:22 2001
From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 23:23:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jack Gilbert
References: <200110150159.f9F1xAh32218@mx3.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <000601c15528$becf6440$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

David,
I don't know whether I'd call The Great Fires the best book of the decade,
but I certainly prefer it to Collins' work. Collins was on the NPR program
The Connection the other morning & when he began to read I simply had to
turn it off: words matter so little to him. With Gilbert, at least, I have
the sense that he understands that meaningful words must emerge for a larger
silence. Collins' is a poetry without a struggle, without even any sense of
struggle.

jd
======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
======================







From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Sun Oct 14 23:57:29 2001
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 23:57:29 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] small tidings
Message-ID: <20011014235729.025694@oak.cc.conncoll.edu>

The Mystic River

runs down Gravel Street. Ain't it always the way?
All that grit in the water we are.  

The Great Blue Heron.  The Little Grey.
Proper naming lifts the case that can't be argued.

Thing.  Creature.  Long legs under a hunting bird
under a drawbridge.  Lever and pulley, counterweight,

bridge cocks up and makes the road no more.
Lever and pulley, counterweight, hitch the heron's

leg just so.  Blue master, spear your fish
when the camera's on you.  We are slow.

--
Wendy Battin

___________



From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Mon Oct 15 00:07:06 2001
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 23:07:06 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jack Gilbert
Message-ID: <200110150404.f9F44ql21169@mx11.mx.voyager.net>

I wouldn't want to cause you pain, Joe, by quoting any Collins.  But I just
don't understand your point, I'm afraid.  Guess I've already had my say on
the matter of poetry & the "larger silence"--though I still don't get it,
really, I can surely agree to disagree on that. 

But as for words *mattering* more to Jack Gilbert than to Billy Collins,
well, I remain more than puzzled by such an opinion. 

Let me give an example.  Here's the opening of Jack Gilbert's poem "The
Great Fires":

Love is apart from all things. 
Desire and excitement are nothing beside it. 
It is not the body that finds love. 
What leads us there is the body. 
What is not love provokes it. 
What is not love quenches it. 
Love lays hold of everything we know. 
The passions which are called love
also change everything to a newness 
at first. Passion is clearly the path 
but does not bring us to love. 
It opens the castle of our spirit 
so that we might find the love which is 
a mystery hidden there. 
Love is one of many great fires.  . . .
_______________

In terms of idea, I find that a gaseous collection of vague platitudes.  In
terms of diction, it's hardly fresh or flavorful to my mind.  And what else
is there?  No interesting metaphor, image, anecdote, rhythm, etc.  

This is more a question for Jim Finnegan, I guess:  but what distinguishes
the above from Khalil Gibran?  

David Graham

_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________

----------
>From: "Joseph Duemer" <duemer at clarkson.edu>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Jack Gilbert
>Date: Sun, Oct 14, 2001, 10:23 PM
>

>David,
>I don't know whether I'd call The Great Fires the best book of the decade,
>but I certainly prefer it to Collins' work. Collins was on the NPR program
>The Connection the other morning & when he began to read I simply had to
>turn it off: words matter so little to him. With Gilbert, at least, I have
>the sense that he understands that meaningful words must emerge for a larger
>silence. Collins' is a poetry without a struggle, without even any sense of
>struggle.
>
>jd
>======================
>Joseph Duemer



From khodges at softhome.net  Mon Oct 15 04:01:45 2001
From: khodges at softhome.net (Kim Hodges)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 01:01:45 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jack Gilbert
In-Reply-To: <200110150404.f9F44ql21169@mx11.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011015002550.00a02c10@pop.softhome.net>

Probably that is not one of the poems I had in mind.
I don't have a copy of the book handy, so I can't find my
favorites.  But I recall them being particularly effective
in terms of image. Of course, I no doubt didn't care for
everything equally.  That I did have a number of favorites
made it stand out.  And I think finding a few special gems will
tend to reflect positively on a whole book. There are an
awful lot of books I find where nothing has that grabbing
quality. I do recall with this one, that I was drawn to read
it more than once.

I also recall that the reviewer recommending Gilbert
preferred his earlier works. But when I located those,
I did not care for them as much.

I wonder -- how do you (meant generally and plurally),
read a poetry book?  Do you start at the beginning, or
with the title poem, or do you open it randomly?  I am a
random opener -- so I tend to start toward the middle
and back.  And that may very much influence how I feel
about certain works, where I encounter something
positive (or negative) early on, and find I would have
been put off if I had read things in the received order.

Just recently I was quite taken with a book by Kunitz that
I browsed through at the bookstore, to the point I immediately
ran up the street to the library and checked out a copy.
But then I found there was little else there I cared for.

                 - Kim



From anastasios.kozaitis at verizon.net  Mon Oct 15 07:29:49 2001
From: anastasios.kozaitis at verizon.net (anastasios.kozaitis at verizon.net)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 07:29:49 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] poem
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011015072920.00a6a530@mail.verizon.net>

THOU SHALT NOT KILL
A Memorial for Dylan Thomas

I

They are murdering all the young men.
For half a century now, every day,
They have hunted them down and killed them.
They are killing them now.
At this minute, all over the world,
They are killing the young men.
They know ten thousand ways to kill them.
Every year they invent new ones.
In the jungles of Africa,
In the marshes of Asia,
In the deserts of Asia,
In the slave pens of Siberia,
In the slums of Europe,
In the nightclubs of America,
The murderers are at work.

They are stoning Stephen,
They are casting him forth from every city in the world.
Under the Welcome sign,
Under the Rotary emblem,
On the highway in the suburbs,
His body lies under the hurling stones.
He was full of faith and power.
He did great wonders among the people.
They could not stand against his wisdom.
They could not bear the spirit with which he spoke.
He cried out in the name
Of the tabernacle of witness in the wilderness.
They were cut to the heart.
They gnashed against him with their teeth.
They cried out with a loud voice.
They stopped their ears.
They ran on him with one accord.
They cast him out of the city and stoned him.
The witnesses laid down their clothes
At the feet of a man whose name was your name ?
You.

You are the murderer.
You are killing the young men.
You are broiling Lawrence on his gridiron.
When you demanded he divulge
The hidden treasures of the spirit,
He showed you the poor.
You set your heart against him.
You seized him and bound him with rage.
You roasted him on a slow fire.
His fat dripped and spurted in the flame.
The smell was sweet to your nose.
He cried out,
?I am cooked on this side,
Turn me over and eat,
You
Eat of my flesh.?

You are murdering the young men.
You are shooting Sebastian with arrows.
He kept the faithful steadfast under persecution.
First you shot him with arrows.
Then you beat him with rods.
Then you threw him in a sewer.
You fear nothing more than courage.
You who turn away your eyes
At the bravery of the young men.

You,
The hyena with polished face and bow tie,
In the office of a billion dollar
Corporation devoted to service;
The vulture dripping with carrion,
Carefully and carelessly robed in imported tweeds,
Lecturing on the Age of Abundance;
The jackal in double-breasted gabardine,
Barking by remote control,
In the United Nations;
The vampire bat seated at the couch head,
Notebook in hand, toying with his decerebrator;
The autonomous, ambulatory cancer,
The Superego in a thousand uniforms;
You, the finger man of behemoth,
The murderer of the young men.

II
What happened to Robinson,
Who used to stagger down Eighth Street,
Dizzy with solitary gin?
Where is Masters, who crouched in
His law office for ruinous decades?
Where is Leonard who thought he was
A locomotive? And Lindsay,
Wise as a dove, innocent
As a serpent, where is he?
      Timor mortis conturbat me.

What became of Jim Oppenheim?
Lola Ridge alone in an
Icy furnished room? Orrick Johns,
Hopping into the surf on his
One leg? Elinor Wylie
Who leaped like Kierkegaard?
Sara Teasdale, where is she?
      Timor mortis conturbat me.

Where is George Sterling, that tame fawn?
Phelps Putnam who stole away?
Jack Wheelwright who couldn?t cross the bridge?
Donald Evans with his cane and
Monocle, where is he?
      Timor mortis conturbat me.

John Gould Fletcher who could not
Unbreak his powerful heart?
Bodenheim butchered in stinking
Squalor? Edna Millay who took
Her last straight whiskey? Genevieve
Who loved so much; where is she?
      Timor mortis conturbat me.

Harry who didn?t care at all?
Hart who went back to the sea?
      Timor mortis conturbat me.

Where is Sol Funaroff?
What happened to Potamkin?
Isidor Schneider? Claude McKay?
Countee Cullen? Clarence Weinstock?
Who animates their corpses today?
      Timor mortis conturbat me.

Where is Ezra, that noisy man?
Where is Larsson whose poems were prayers?
Where is Charles Snider, that gentle
Bitter boy? Carnevali,
What became of him?
Carol who was so beautiful, where is she?
      Timor mortis conturbat me.

III
Was their end noble and tragic,
Like the mask of a tyrant?
Like Agamemnon?s secret golden face?
Indeed it was not. Up all night
In the fo?c?sle, bemused and beaten,
Bleeding at the rectum, in his
Pocket a review by the one
Colleague he respected, ?If he
Really means what these poems
Pretend to say, he has only
One way out ?.? Into the
Hot acrid Caribbean sun,
Into the acrid, transparent,
Smoky sea. Or another, lice in his
Armpits and crotch, garbage littered
On the floor, gray greasy rags on
The bed. ?I killed them because they
Were dirty, stinking Communists.
I should get a medal.? Again,
Another, Simenon foretold
His end at a glance. ?I dare you
To pull the trigger.? She shut her eyes
And spilled gin over her dress.
The pistol wobbled in his hand.
It took them hours to die.
Another threw herself downstairs,
And broke her back. It took her years.
Two put their heads under water
In the bath and filled their lungs.
Another threw himself under
The traffic of a crowded bridge.
Another, drunk, jumped from a
Balcony and broke her neck.
Another soaked herself in
Gasoline and ran blazing
Into the street and lived on
In custody. One made love
Only once with a beggar woman.
He died years later of syphilis
Of the brain and spine. Fifteen
Years of pain and poverty,
While his mind leaked away.
One tried three times in twenty years
To drown himself. The last time
He succeeded. One turned on the gas
When she had no more food, no more
Money, and only half a lung.
One went up to Harlem, took on
Thirty men, came home and
Cut her throat. One sat up all night
Talking to H.L. Mencken and
Drowned himself in the morning.
How many stopped writing at thirty?
How many went to work for Time?
How many died of prefrontal
Lobotomies in the Communist Party?
How many are lost in the back wards
Of provincial madhouses?
How many on the advice of
Their psychoanalysts, decided
A business career was best after all?
How many are hopeless alcoholics?
Ren? Crevel!
Jacques Rigaud!
Antonin Artaud!
Mayakofsky!
Essenin!
Robert Desnos!
Saint Pol Roux!
Max Jacob!
All over the world
The same disembodied hand
Strikes us down.
Here is a mountain of death.
A hill of heads like the Khans piled up.
The first-born of a century
Slaughtered by Herod.
Three generations of infants
Stuffed down the maw of Moloch.

IV
He is dead.
The bird of Rhiannon.
He is dead.
In the winter of the heart.
He is Dead.
In the canyons of death,
They found him dumb at last,
In the blizzard of lies.
He never spoke again.
He died.
He is dead.
In their antiseptic hands,
He is dead.
The little spellbinder of Cader Idris.
He is dead.
The sparrow of Cardiff.
He is dead.
The canary of Swansea.
Who killed him?
Who killed the bright-headed bird?
You did, you son of a bitch.
You drowned him in your cocktail brain.
He fell down and died in your synthetic heart.
You killed him,
Oppenheimer the Million-Killer,
You killed him,
Einstein the Gray Eminence.
You killed him,
Havanahavana, with your Nobel Prize.
You killed him, General,
Through the proper channels.
You strangled him, Le Mouton,
With your mains ?tendues.
He confessed in open court to a pince-nezed skull.
You shot him in the back of the head
As he stumbled in the last cellar.
You killed him,
Benign Lady on the postage stamp.
He was found dead at a Liberal Weekly luncheon.
He was found dead on the cutting room floor.
He was found dead at a Time policy conference.
Henry Luce killed him with a telegram to the Pope.
Mademoiselle strangled him with a padded brassiere.
Old Possum sprinkled him with a tea ball.
After the wolves were done, the vaticides
Crawled off with his bowels to their classrooms
      and quarterlies.
When the news came over the radio
You personally rose up shouting, ?Give us Barabbas!?
In your lonely crowd you swept over him.
Your custom-built brogans and your ballet slippers
Pummeled him to death in the gritty street.
You hit him with an album of Hindemith.
You stabbed him with stainless steel by Isamu Noguchi,
He is dead.
He is Dead.
Like Ignacio the bullfighter,
At four o?clock in the afternoon.
At precisely four o?clock.
I too do not want to hear it.
I too do not want to know it.
I want to run into the street,
Shouting, ?Remember Vanzetti!?
I want to pour gasoline down your chimneys.
I want to blow up your galleries.
I want to bum down your editorial offices.
I want to slit the bellies of your frigid women.
I want to sink your sailboats and launches.
I want to strangle your children at their finger paintings.
I want to poison your Afghans and poodles.
He is dead, the little drunken cherub.
He is dead,
The effulgent tub thumper.
He is Dead.
The ever living birds are not singing
To the head of Bran.
The sea birds are still
Over Bardsey of Ten Thousand Saints.
The underground men are not singing
On their way to work.
There is a smell of blood
In the smell of the turf smoke.
They have struck him down,
The son of David ap Gwilym.
They have murdered him,
The Baby of Taliessin.
There he lies dead,
By the Iceberg of the United Nations.
There he lies sandbagged,
At the foot of the Statue of Liberty.
The Gulf Stream smells of blood
As it breaks on the sand of Iona
And the blue rocks of Canarvon.
And all the birds of the deep sea rise up
Over the luxury liners and scream,
?You killed him! You killed him.
In your God damned Brooks Brothers suit,
You son of a bitch.?


--Kenneth Rexroth

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From MNFOXX at aol.com  Mon Oct 15 08:56:04 2001
From: MNFOXX at aol.com (MNFOXX at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 08:56:04 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Violence Poems; Terrorist Poems
Message-ID: <90.1b582fb0.28fc36e4@aol.com>

VIOLENCE TO THE BLOOD
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://www.postpoems.com/members/mnfoxx/

Any person that doeth violence to another person; the culprit
shall flee to the fiery pit
shall fell the wrath that God will remit
Whenever there is a terrorist attack, a fatal hit

So much hatred, anger, and violence terrorist did submit
On American soil, on a trade and financial outfit
That damned the soul of the offender with no spiritual benefit
For their hearts aren't pure, of God but counterfeit


~Proverbs 28:1~
A man that doeth violence to the blood of any person shall flee to the pit; 
let no man stay him. 

========================

DO NO VIOLENCE!!!
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://www.postpoems.com/members/mnfoxx/

Do no violence to man, woman or child
And shed no innocent blood anywhere or any place
Like the Sept 11 terrorist attacks in NY aerospace
Where the World Trade Center was destroyed
And lives tragically taken, unjustly erased
What a disgrace!

Do no violence to man, woman or child
And shed no innocent blood anywhere or any place
Instead open your arms to a peace, love, and unity embrace


~Jeremiah 22:3~ 
Thus saith the LORD; Execute ye judgment and righteousness, and deliver the 
spoiled out of the hand of the oppressor: and do no wrong, do no violence to 
the stranger, the fatherless, nor the widow, neither shed innocent blood in 
this place. 

~Ezekiel 45:9~ 
.......remove violence and spoil, and execute judgment and justice, take away 
your exactions from my people, saith the Lord GOD. 

========================

RISING VIOLENCE
~By Monique Nicole Fox~
http://www.postpoems.com/members/mnfoxx/

Violence is risen up into a rod of wickedness
Violence has risen up by Terrorist of death, devastation and distress
Who are filled with hatred and anger; Satan they possess

Many lives turned upside down
The World Trade Center a collapsed mess

All of those affected
Let the Almighty comfort you with a loving caress

From kellogg at duke.edu  Mon Oct 15 09:40:57 2001
From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:40:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jack Gilbert
In-Reply-To: <000601c15528$becf6440$18724342@twcny.rr.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.1011015093506.28049A-100000@godzilla4.acpub.duke.edu>

> I don't know whether I'd call The Great Fires the best book of the decade,
> but I certainly prefer it to Collins' work. Collins was on the NPR program
> The Connection the other morning & when he began to read I simply had to
> turn it off: words matter so little to him. With Gilbert, at least, I have
> the sense that he understands that meaningful words must emerge for a larger
> silence. Collins' is a poetry without a struggle, without even any sense of
> struggle.

Just to anticipate a possible objection here, I don't think it's
necessarily dismissive of Collins to note that Gilbert is a considerably
finer poet.  Bob Grumman calls Callins a good "minor" poet, and that 
seems to me both right and generous.  Hey, I'd love that designation.  

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Kellogg			Director, Writing in the Disciplines
kellogg at duke.edu		Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing
(919) 660-4357		 	Duke University
FAX (919) 660-4372		http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/



From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Oct 15 11:47:08 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 11:47:08 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jack Gilbert
Message-ID: <9b.1c67a5e5.28fc5efc@aol.com>

Going Wrong

The fish are dreadful. They are brought up
the mountain in the dawn most days, beautiful
and alien and cold from night under the sea,
the grand rooms fading from their flat eyes.
Soft machinery of the dark, the man thinks,
washing them. "What can you know of my machinery!"
demands the Lord. Sure, the man says quietly
and cuts into them, laying back the dozen struts,
getting to the muck of something terrible.
The Lord insists: "You are the one who chooses
to live this way. I build cities where things
are human. I make Tuscany and you go live
with rock and silence." The man washes away
the blood and arranges the fish on a big plate.
Starts the onions in the hot olive oil and puts
in peppers. "You have lived all year without women."
He takes out everything and puts in the fish.
"No one knows where you are. People forget you.
You are vain and stubborn." The man slices
tomatoes and lemons. Takes out the fish
and scrambles eggs. I am not stubborn, he thinks,
laying all of it on the table in the courtyard
full of early sun, shadows of swallows flying
on the food. Not stubborn, just greedy.


From jdavis at panix.com  Mon Oct 15 12:02:39 2001
From: jdavis at panix.com (Jordan Davis)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:02:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] dreadful, greedy
In-Reply-To: <9b.1c67a5e5.28fc5efc@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.40.0110151159200.24662-100000@panix3.panix.com>

J for James -

Setting aside the mild insanity of the fish-chef's chat with the capital L
Lord, what do you see as commendable in this point of view, other than
that an asocial curmudgeon has been thoughtful enough to remove himself
from circulation? That Lord and His recalcitrant fish-chef, are they
really more pleasant to the understanding than Mayakovsky talking to the
sun (or O'Hara, for that matter)?

Foo,
Jordan




From gmcvay at patriot.net  Mon Oct 15 12:18:24 2001
From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:18:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Violence Poems; Terrorist Poems
References: <90.1b582fb0.28fc36e4@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3BCB0C49.1E821A07@patriot.net>

Dear Monique Nicole Fox,

I regret to say that I cannot use these poems. Not that I edit anything,
but in a sense they are an unsolicited submission. It has *already* been
pointed out to you that list members are asked to submit normally no
more than one poem of their own to the list per month, and at any rate,
to participate meaningfully in the ongoing discussion. A brief
introductory note ("Hi, my name is X; some of my favorite poets are Y
and Z") is also often helpful.

The poems themselves aren't helping, either. For one thing, you often
stretch so far for a rhyme that the results are unintentionally
hilarious (for example, describing the current national mood as
"pissed"). For another, your theology is wildly inconsistent from poem
to poem; in one poem regarding the disaster, you say that Satan did it,
and in the next, you say that God did it. If the latter, this view is
exceptionally offensive to victims and surviving family members and
friends. You may consider this a free clue.

But I digress; this isn't really a workshop list. A single message of
introduction from you--some knowledge of how you found this list, and
what you hope to gain by participating here--would leave at least this
one listmember slightly more inclined to suggest poets you might like to
read and learn from.

Signed, Grumpy the Dwarf


From moira_russell at hotmail.com  Mon Oct 15 12:12:17 2001
From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 08:12:17 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jack Gilbert
Message-ID: <F58VjriLdElsBt8sBju00005f8c@hotmail.com>

>(However, this
>title poem which have you posted is hardly characteristic of
>Gilbert's poetry as a whole...I hope you weren't purposefully
>suggesting that it is...and your blindspot toward Gilbert must
>be large as the Grand Canyon in order to compare him
>even in a single poem to Gilbran...you couldn't possibly if
>you'd read Monolithos or The Great Fires beginning to end.)

Well, it may simply be that David is unerringly crafty in his machinations, 
but I think it's a little unfair to criticize him as pulling out the title 
poem from a collection.  The very fact that Gilbert chose to make it the 
title poem suggests that if it is not at least "representative," it is 
something he especially wants to draw attention to.

I must admit that comparing Collins to Gilbert makes about as much sense to 
me as lining up Frost and Ammons.  They are different poets;  they speak to 
different tastes, different people.  Some may appreciate one, some may 
appreciate the other, some may be able to find good things in both.  But as 
Anthony Hecht once said to Robert Lowell, let's not play that stupid ranking 
game.  (As a final observation, the poem about the fish didn't seem all that 
terribly different to me from a poem by Collins, particularly in the slack 
diction and prosiness.)

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp



From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Mon Oct 15 12:21:59 2001
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:21:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Violence Poems; Terrorist Poems
References: <90.1b582fb0.28fc36e4@aol.com> <3BCB0C49.1E821A07@patriot.net>
Message-ID: <005c01c15595$84778d00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

Gwyn -- I always thought you were "Sleazy."

Thanks for saying what I would have.

    
  Tad Richards                       "Well said, old mole."
    The Old Mole                         Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet 
    of the MoleNet                          Act I, Scene 5
          http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gwyn McVay" <gmcvay at patriot.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Violence Poems; Terrorist Poems


> Dear Monique Nicole Fox,
> 
> I regret to say that I cannot use these poems. Not that I edit anything,
> but in a sense they are an unsolicited submission. It has *already* been
> pointed out to you that list members are asked to submit normally no
> more than one poem of their own to the list per month, and at any rate,
> to participate meaningfully in the ongoing discussion. A brief
> introductory note ("Hi, my name is X; some of my favorite poets are Y
> and Z") is also often helpful.
> 
> The poems themselves aren't helping, either. For one thing, you often
> stretch so far for a rhyme that the results are unintentionally
> hilarious (for example, describing the current national mood as
> "pissed"). For another, your theology is wildly inconsistent from poem
> to poem; in one poem regarding the disaster, you say that Satan did it,
> and in the next, you say that God did it. If the latter, this view is
> exceptionally offensive to victims and surviving family members and
> friends. You may consider this a free clue.
> 
> But I digress; this isn't really a workshop list. A single message of
> introduction from you--some knowledge of how you found this list, and
> what you hope to gain by participating here--would leave at least this
> one listmember slightly more inclined to suggest poets you might like to
> read and learn from.
> 
> Signed, Grumpy the Dwarf
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Oct 15 12:33:26 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:33:26 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] dreadful, greedy
Message-ID: <82.118f1c55.28fc69d6@aol.com>

In a message dated 10/15/01 12:04:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jdavis at panix.com writes:

> Setting aside the mild insanity of the fish-chef's chat with the capital L
>  Lord, what do you see as commendable in this point of view, other than
>  that an asocial curmudgeon has been thoughtful enough to remove himself
>  from circulation? That Lord and His recalcitrant fish-chef, are they
>  really more pleasant to the understanding than Mayakovsky talking to the
>  sun (or O'Hara, for that matter)?
>  
Jordan,
O'Hara would have liked the cooking details, as rendered. 
Mayakovsky would have been sympathetic to the speaker's utter
commitment to self-deprivation. Lucky are those who have a capital L 
(to use your own jaded reduction) they are not afraid to converse
with (albeit silently--God got the quote marks) in a late 20thC poem. 
Finnegan


From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Mon Oct 15 12:43:29 2001
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 11:43:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jack Gilbert
Message-ID: <200110151640.f9FGelw20352@mx8.mx.voyager.net>

Jim, thanks for posting "Going Wrong."  I like it much better than "The
Great Fires."  But no, I'm not addicted to image and metaphor as the index
of all quality, necessarily.  Yet in the absence of compelling thought,
fresh diction, rhythmic lilt, etc. (and my assessment of "The Great Fires"
as a lyric hasn't altered in these respects), sometimes a good image or
figure can still win me over.  Even, at times, a shapely anecdote alone. 
When logopoeia and melopoeia drop out, there had better be at least a little
phanopoeia, I think!

Sorry to bring Gibran into this discussion--he is a hot button, I
realize--but when I encounter lines like these, I really don't think it's an
entirely unfair comparison:

>>  The passions which are called love
>>  also change everything to a newness 
>>  at first. Passion is clearly the path 
>>  but does not bring us to love. 

I object not to the abstraction of such lines but to what seems their utter
banality of idea, expressed in lackluster diction and prosy syntax.  And the
tone bothers me, too:  Moses is laying down the law here, but "passions. . .
change everything to a newness"?  Isn't that straight off a soft-focus
inspirational poster?  

Well, I'm certainly willling to consider this an uncharacteristic poem. I
have read *Monolithos* and the earlier work, though not too recently, and
though I've not been drawn back to it, I would agree that many of the poems
I've seen aren't as weak as I think "The Great Fires" is.  But Gilbert is
usually fairly minimalist in his procedures, isn't he?  You're right to call
this audacious, I agree, but I'd like to hear more about how you feel that
he pulls it off.   I really do want to see what others see in this poet, but
so far no luck.   

Gilbert is to my taste as Collins seems to be for many others.  But I'm
happy to dissociate Gilbert from Collins forever.  Two different kettles of
fish, I agree.  
_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________

----------
>From: JforJames at aol.com
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Jack Gilbert
>Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001, 10:47 AM
>

>Going Wrong
>
>The fish are dreadful. They are brought up
>the mountain in the dawn most days, beautiful
>and alien and cold from night under the sea,
>the grand rooms fading from their flat eyes.
>Soft machinery of the dark, the man thinks,
>washing them. "What can you know of my machinery!"
>demands the Lord. Sure, the man says quietly
>and cuts into them, laying back the dozen struts,
>getting to the muck of something terrible.
>The Lord insists: "You are the one who chooses
>to live this way. I build cities where things
>are human. I make Tuscany and you go live
>with rock and silence." The man washes away
>the blood and arranges the fish on a big plate.
>Starts the onions in the hot olive oil and puts
>in peppers. "You have lived all year without women."
>He takes out everything and puts in the fish.
>"No one knows where you are. People forget you.
>You are vain and stubborn." The man slices
>tomatoes and lemons. Takes out the fish
>and scrambles eggs. I am not stubborn, he thinks,
>laying all of it on the table in the courtyard
>full of early sun, shadows of swallows flying
>on the food. Not stubborn, just greedy.
>
>From THE GREAT FIRES, by Jack Gilbert
>
>David, 
>I won't bother to dis Collins....but he's at least two full tiers
>below Gilbert in my personal pantheon. The above poem
>should show that Gilbert is capable of strong imagery.
>(I'll post "Measuring the Tyger" when I have a chance...if 
>more imagery/metaphor is your measure of poem's
>heft.) David, I think you're missing the audacity it takes for any
>poet in this day & age to craft a poem with only rhetoric
>(sans hard visual imagery). It's not easy to pull off....it takes
>a master poet. It's a lot like people who say of abstract art
>(say a DeKooning), "A child could do that"...But it only looks 
>easy...creating weight/affect without visual/narrative representation
>is difficult. Lots more variation in those lines quuted, than you \
>suggest, I think; and nice use of repetition, too. (However, this 
>title poem which have you posted is hardly characteristic of 
>Gilbert's poetry as a whole...I hope you weren't purposefully 
>suggesting that it is...and your blindspot toward Gilbert must 
>be large as the Grand Canyon in order to compare him 
>even in a single poem to Gilbran...you couldn't possibly if 
>you'd read Monolithos or The Great Fires beginning to end.)  
>"The Great Fires" poem does operate as credo...one 
>of Gilbert's important and recurring themes: the nature of love; 
>and how is it played out through passion and in ordinary 
>moments spent together.  
>Finnegan
> 


From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Oct 15 12:54:04 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:54:04 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jack Gilbert
Message-ID: <5f.1c42addd.28fc6eac@aol.com>

by Jack Gilbert from The Great Fires...

Me and Capablanca

The sultry first night of July, he on the bed
reading one of Chandler's lesser novels.
What he should be doing is in the other room.
Today he began carrying wood up from the valley,
already starting on winter. He closes the book
and goes naked into the pitch pines and the last
half-hour of the dark. Rain makes a sound
on the birches and a butternut tree. There is not
enough time left to use it for dissatisfaction.
Often it is hard to know when the middle game
is over and the end game beginning, the pure part
that is made more of craft than it is of magic.


---
Here's another poem that employs an "internal argument," 
so to speak, as its modus operandi. If you don't play chess, 
it might help to know that Capablanca was a great Cuban 
grandmaster.
Finnegan


From moira_russell at hotmail.com  Mon Oct 15 13:02:49 2001
From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 09:02:49 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jack Gilbert
Message-ID: <F92vyo3DjFbUcOV1Eet00006265@hotmail.com>

>The sultry first night of July, he on the bed
>reading one of Chandler's lesser novels.

Faugh.  Anyone who thinks a Chandler can be described as lesser should be 
sentenced to a lifetime of reading Dashiell Hammett describing his hero 
making sandiwches.

>He closes the book
>and goes naked into the pitch pines and the last
>half-hour of the dark.

Any women in this book anywhere?  Or is it all naked men preparing to chop 
wood and ascetically cooking fish?  Just curious.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

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From Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu  Mon Oct 15 13:30:50 2001
From: Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu (Edward Byrne)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:30:50 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Valparaiso Poetry Review
In-Reply-To: <5f.1c42addd.28fc6eac@aol.com>
Message-ID: <SIMEON.10110151250.A@muahost.valpo.edu>

NEWS RELEASE: MONDAY, OCTOBER 15, 2001

Announcement: Publication of the Fall/Winter issue (Vol. III, 
No. 1) of _Valparaiso Poetry Review_.

The new issue of VPR is now available online at the following:
http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/

The issue contains poems by featured poet Virgil Suarez, as well as 
poetry by Jill Pelaez Baumgaertner, Robert James Berry, David Bond, 
Daniel Henry, Gregg Hertzlieb, Leigh Kirkland, Thea S. Kuticka, Robert 
Lietz, Roger Pfingston, Marianne Poloskey, and Rebecca Reynolds. 

In addition, Ryan G. Van Cleave interviews Suarez; David Craig reviews 
Baumgaertner's _Finding Cuba_; Catherine Daly reviews Maggie Anderson's 
_Windfall: New and Selected Poems_; and Ana Doina reviews Poloskey's 
_Climbing the Shadows_.

The issue also includes commentary by Hertzlieb on the cover art by 
Helen Frankenthaler, and there is an extended look at "The Life 
and Legacy of Larry Levis."

All works from past issues are also available for viewing, including 
poetry by Charles Wright, Reginald Gibbons, Patricia Fargnoli, Laurence 
Lieberman, Margot Schilpp, Jonathan Holden, Rachel Loden, Beth Simon, 
Walt McDonald, and many others.

Submissions are always welcome.  Guidelines for submission are 
available at the VPR website. 

--------------------------------------------------

Edward Byrne
Department of English
322 Huegli Hall
Valparaiso University
Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493

E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu
http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/

Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu
http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/
Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
Fax: (219) 464-5511

--------------------------------------------------



From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon Oct 15 13:26:10 2001
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:26:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jack Gilbert
In-Reply-To: <F92vyo3DjFbUcOV1Eet00006265@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEKEGOEDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

> >The sultry first night of July, he on the bed
> >reading one of Chandler's lesser novels.
> 
> Faugh.  Anyone who thinks a Chandler can be described as lesser should be 
> sentenced to a lifetime of reading Dashiell Hammett describing his hero 
> making sandiwches.

Surely some Chandlers are lesser than other Chandlers, n'est pas?
But I'm no expert.

Hal     "A poet is someone from whom nothing must be
            taken and to whom nothing must be given."
                         --Anna Akhmatova

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html



From DICK at watson.ibm.com  Mon Oct 15 13:50:11 2001
From: DICK at watson.ibm.com (DICK at watson.ibm.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 01 13:50:11 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] how to read a book of poems
Message-ID: <200110151754.f9FHsuM13852@sp1n189at0.watson.ibm.com>

Recently someone (Mill?) said she begins reading a book
of poems in the middle, and progresses.  I think I recall
someone a while back asking, "Does anyone read a book of
poems from the beginning?"

How do the authors on the list arrange their poems for
a book?

Richard


From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Oct 15 13:57:11 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 13:57:11 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jack Gilbert
Message-ID: <14a.27ddaf3.28fc7d77@aol.com>

In a message dated 10/15/01 1:04:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
moira_russell at hotmail.com writes:

> He closes the book
>  >and goes naked into the pitch pines and the last
>  >half-hour of the dark.
>  
>  Any women in this book anywhere?  Or is it all naked men preparing to chop 
>  wood and ascetically cooking fish?  Just curious.
>  
Moira, 

From moira_russell at hotmail.com  Mon Oct 15 14:09:49 2001
From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 10:09:49 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jack Gilbert
Message-ID: <F68AHOhR8jFOrrnXhZ200005057@hotmail.com>

>Surely some Chandlers are lesser than other Chandlers, n'est pas?
>But I'm no expert.

Well, "Playback" was written close to the end of his life while he was 
alcoholic and really doesn't stand up to the rest of the canon.  But some 
prefer "The Big Sleep," some prefer "The Long Goodbye" and some swear by 
"Farewell, My Lovely."  Perhaps it's the oh-so-knowingness of the tone that 
gets to me.  He couldn't just break a sweat and tell us what book he's 
reading?  No, it has to sound like "Ah yes, one of the lesser cabernet 
sauvignons from 1979."  I don't trust people who won't give me titles.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

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From moira_russell at hotmail.com  Mon Oct 15 14:19:50 2001
From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 10:19:50 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] how to read a book of poems
Message-ID: <F12289QtpfTYSl1q4gt00006693@hotmail.com>

I usually take the author's arrangement of a book pretty seriously, probably 
because I put a fair amount of thinking into my own collections of stuff.  I 
look on it as being like the arrangement of songs on an album -- the 
sequence is intended to draw you in, tell you a story.  It's always bothered 
me that complete/collected editions of poems frequently go for the 
chronological approach and destroy whatever original order the author might 
have intended.

>How do the authors on the list arrange their poems for
>a book?

Fairly carefully, although then you wind up with good stuff that doesn't fit 
and either has to be saved for the next project or tossed into a "Misc" 
section.

Does anyone else remember that early Levertov essay where she admits the 
contents of her first three books were pretty casually tossed together, and 
when she admitted that to another poet, he was shocked!  shocked! she would 
do such a thing?

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA


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From jdavis at panix.com  Mon Oct 15 14:29:21 2001
From: jdavis at panix.com (Jordan Davis)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 14:29:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] lucky, jaded
In-Reply-To: <82.118f1c55.28fc69d6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.40.0110151421390.3553-100000@panix1.panix.com>

Guess I was too strident again. Maybe I just want the kind of conversation
he's trying for in his poem to be better defended, less solipsistic?
(Isn't it a little goofy to imagine a God who suggests upper middle class
American expatriate dreams?) But I can see what you admire in his phrasing
and imagery. He's a little overintense for my tastes -- and I hear better
phrases and images in, say, Joel Sloman or Michael O'Brien -- but as we
hear over and over here, chacun a son gout.

J for Jaded Jordan



From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Oct 15 15:43:46 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 15:43:46 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jack Gilbert
Message-ID: <79.1c92331e.28fc9672@aol.com>

In a message dated 10/15/01 2:11:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
moira_russell at hotmail.com writes:

> Playback" was written close to the end of his life while he was 
>  alcoholic and really doesn't stand up to the rest of the canon.  But some 
>  prefer "The Big Sleep," some prefer "The Long Goodbye" and some swear by 
>  "Farewell, My Lovely."  Perhaps it's the oh-so-knowingness of the tone 
that 
>  gets to me.  He couldn't just break a sweat and tell us what book he's 
>  reading?  No, it has to sound like "Ah yes, one of the lesser cabernet 
>  sauvignons from 1979."  I don't trust people who won't give me titles.
>  
I'm not trying to browbeat you into liking "Me
& Capablanca," or any Jack Gilbert poems for that matter,
but since you seem to have opinions about Chandler,
I'm not certain why you won't grant the speaker of 
this poem his own opinion (whether explicitly stated or not).
It's not an essay on Chandler's books. Very economically
the speaker (cast in the 3rd person) is telling us something 
about the here & now of his day (a little he-do-this-he-do-that, 
if you will); he's telling us he reads somewhat seriously, most 
of the books by a given author; he's telling us that he reads 
detective fiction...while perhaps suggesting he's feeling a bit 
guilty, escaping into what might be called a "genre novel," 
only to discover the one he's reading is not up to par, in his opinion, 
...while other matters/tasks, presumably more important
or pressing, are awaiting his attention.

Although this is information outside the poem, it may be
of use in a certain reading of it: Capablanca was a chessmaster
of great talent and facility...but he lost some crucial matches
and many accused him of squandering his gifts. Some said
he was lazy or too much interested in the good life. He'd come
into chess at time when the game was changing from world of 
marvelous amateurs, who may have enjoyed occasional serious 
study of the game but who often held day-jobs as practicing 
doctors, teachers, lawyers, mathematicians, to an era when only 
the full-time chess tournament professional could succeed. In order
to dominate the game Capablanca would have to spend inordinate
amounts of time studying openings, endgame theory, etc. 
Mere genius was no longer going to cut it...Capablanca was being 
asked to make a choice, to bear down and stay number one 
in the world or to just live his own life and be satisfied with 
a few tournament brilliancies. It's the opinion of some commentators
that he choose the latter path.

Of course Gilbert's poem is primarily about living alone and growing
old (the transition into the endgame).
Finnegan


Me and Capablanca

The sultry first night of July, he on the bed
reading one of Chandler's lesser novels.
What he should be doing is in the other room.
Today he began carrying wood up from the valley,
already starting on winter. He closes the book
and goes naked into the pitch pines and the last
half-hour of the dark. Rain makes a sound
on the birches and a butternut tree. There is not
enough time left to use it for dissatisfaction.
Often it is hard to know when the middle game
is over and the end game beginning, the pure part
that is made more of craft than it is of magic.


From moira_russell at hotmail.com  Mon Oct 15 16:19:02 2001
From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:19:02 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jack Gilbert
Message-ID: <F130boJnXoOgLkCjVVK000067a0@hotmail.com>

>From my reading it's clear the "wood carrying" happened earlier
>in the day.  And, yes, there are women in the book....in fact their
>presence is felt to some degree in almost every poem. Michiko,
>who is dead, figures in a number of the poems, like the one below.

Call me squeamish, but it just all reminds me rather unpleasantly of James 
Dickey.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

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From moira_russell at hotmail.com  Mon Oct 15 16:23:16 2001
From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 12:23:16 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jack Gilbert
Message-ID: <F70se1fTvOSQeSOzNCW00006846@hotmail.com>

>I'm not trying to browbeat you into liking "Me
>& Capablanca," or any Jack Gilbert poems for that matter,

Well, good.

>but since you seem to have opinions about Chandler,

Ah, I have opinions about many things.

>I'm not certain why you won't grant the speaker of
>this poem his own opinion (whether explicitly stated or not).
>It's not an essay on Chandler's books.

I am sorry if I have annoyed you, but this is likely to annoy you further:  
it simply seems to me to be pretentious.  In fact, most of the poem seems 
pretentious, from the title on down.  But if you like it, that is good for 
you (meant sincerely).  Perhaps some of this is in reaction to the high 
praise which has been heaped on this poet already, but I think he is being 
overrated.  If it's stale flat & unprofitable for me to pursue this point 
further, I can be quiet about it.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

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From duemer at clarkson.edu  Mon Oct 15 18:19:29 2001
From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 18:19:29 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jack Gilbert
References: <F130boJnXoOgLkCjVVK000067a0@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <004001c155c7$76ad3440$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

<<Call me squeamish, but it just all reminds me rather unpleasantly of James
Dickey.>>

It might have reminded you of Carolyn Forche's first book, which has some
woodsy nakedness in it as well. That's what one of my old teachers in
Seattle, Nelson Bently, would have called a "personal association" while
giving the speaker a slightly mournful look. And Gilbert is utterly without
Dicky's late bombast; the early poems, especially in Drowning With Others,
can be very quiet.

jd

======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
======================







From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Mon Oct 15 19:09:43 2001
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 19:09:43 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] how to read a book of poems
References: <F12289QtpfTYSl1q4gt00006693@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <003001c155ce$7ac2df60$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

I'm pretty much chronological by date written. I never can think of anything
else that works.


  Tad Richards                       "Well said, old mole."
    The Old Mole                         Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet
    of the MoleNet                          Act I, Scene 5
          http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
----- Original Message -----
From: "Moira Russell" <moira_russell at hotmail.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 2:19 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] how to read a book of poems


> I usually take the author's arrangement of a book pretty seriously,
probably
> because I put a fair amount of thinking into my own collections of stuff.
I
> look on it as being like the arrangement of songs on an album -- the
> sequence is intended to draw you in, tell you a story.  It's always
bothered
> me that complete/collected editions of poems frequently go for the
> chronological approach and destroy whatever original order the author
might
> have intended.
>
> >How do the authors on the list arrange their poems for
> >a book?
>
> Fairly carefully, although then you wind up with good stuff that doesn't
fit
> and either has to be saved for the next project or tossed into a "Misc"
> section.
>
> Does anyone else remember that early Levertov essay where she admits the
> contents of her first three books were pretty casually tossed together,
and
> when she admitted that to another poet, he was shocked!  shocked! she
would
> do such a thing?
>
> Moira Russell
> Seattle, WA
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From duemer at clarkson.edu  Mon Oct 15 19:16:15 2001
From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 19:16:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] how to read a book of poems
References: <F12289QtpfTYSl1q4gt00006693@hotmail.com> <003001c155ce$7ac2df60$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <004701c155cf$63552440$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

With all three of my full-length books I have followed roughly the same
procedure: I sort the poems into piles according to some notion of
similarity, with the idea of not having too many piles. The piles become
sections in the finished book. (Customs: 4 piles; Static: 5 piles; Magical
Thinking: 3 piles . . . I know, I know you're all out there thinking, "PILES
is right." I then order the piles roughly by chronology--it turns out that
most of the poems in each pile, though not all, were written during roughly
the same periods. Within each section I try for something musical,
jazz-like: I want certain phrases or images to bounce off other phrases &
images, so I try to put them close together. It's like trying to make a
painting or a piece of music that hangs together.

As for my reading of other poets, I usually flip around in order to get a
sense of the shape of the book, then read from beginning to end--or until
the work fails to repay my engagement with it, i.e., I get bored.

jd
======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
======================







From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon Oct 15 19:41:17 2001
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 19:41:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] how to read a book of poems
In-Reply-To: <F12289QtpfTYSl1q4gt00006693@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEHCEDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

I suppose I take it seriously too, Moira, but I respond in precisely
the opposite way, trying to defeat the author's orderly intentions by
reading pretty much at random. I had a friend who one told me that
in trying to gauge a book (i.e. determine whether to buy/steal/read it)
he'd read the first poem, the last poem, and the title poem, his point
being that when I placed a title poem first or last I'd cut my chances
of a "total read" by him by a third. Anyway, I'm just sort of contrary,
and while I'll order my poems carefully I don't expect or demand that
that order be honored by readers. And I'm kinda fond of whimsical
ordering like that recent Ashbery book in which the poems are
arranged in alphabetical order by title.

Hal     "The bacon too carries on its modest 
            love affair."
                       --Tony Towle
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html

> I usually take the author's arrangement of a book pretty seriously, probably 
> because I put a fair amount of thinking into my own collections of stuff.  I 
> look on it as being like the arrangement of songs on an album -- the 
> sequence is intended to draw you in, tell you a story.  It's always bothered 
> me that complete/collected editions of poems frequently go for the 
> chronological approach and destroy whatever original order the author might 
> have intended.
> 
> >How do the authors on the list arrange their poems for
> >a book?
> 
> Fairly carefully, although then you wind up with good stuff that doesn't fit 
> and either has to be saved for the next project or tossed into a "Misc" 
> section.
> 
> Does anyone else remember that early Levertov essay where she admits the 
> contents of her first three books were pretty casually tossed together, and 
> when she admitted that to another poet, he was shocked!  shocked! she would 
> do such a thing?
> 
> Moira Russell
> Seattle, WA
> 
> 
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


From wasanthony at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 15 19:49:00 2001
From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:49:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] how to read a book of poems
In-Reply-To: <003001c155ce$7ac2df60$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20011015234900.60941.qmail@web12101.mail.yahoo.com>

--- theoldmole <tadrichards at prodigy.net> wrote:
> I'm pretty much chronological by date written. I never can think of
> anything
> else that works.
> 

I am lost.   The subject line reads "hot to read a book of poems," not
"how to compile a book of poems."  And what do you mean by "works"?

- the other Jim


=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
"Ripples" @ <http://www.poetserv.net>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

__________________________________________________
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Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Mon Oct 15 19:44:25 2001
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 19:44:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] how to read a book of poems
In-Reply-To: <003001c155ce$7ac2df60$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEHCEDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Gadzooks! I never thought of that, but then I'd have to keep
track of dates things were written? rewritten? Ho-hum.

Hal     "There are then quite a number of things
            one does or does not know."
                            --Gertrude Stein

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
 
> I'm pretty much chronological by date written. I never can think of anything
> else that works.
> 
> 
>   Tad Richards                       "Well said, old mole."
>     The Old Mole                         Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet
>     of the MoleNet                          Act I, Scene 5
>           http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Moira Russell" <moira_russell at hotmail.com>
> To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 2:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] how to read a book of poems
> 
> 
> > I usually take the author's arrangement of a book pretty seriously,
> probably
> > because I put a fair amount of thinking into my own collections of stuff.
> I
> > look on it as being like the arrangement of songs on an album -- the
> > sequence is intended to draw you in, tell you a story.  It's always
> bothered
> > me that complete/collected editions of poems frequently go for the
> > chronological approach and destroy whatever original order the author
> might
> > have intended.
> >
> > >How do the authors on the list arrange their poems for
> > >a book?
> >
> > Fairly carefully, although then you wind up with good stuff that doesn't
> fit
> > and either has to be saved for the next project or tossed into a "Misc"
> > section.
> >
> > Does anyone else remember that early Levertov essay where she admits the
> > contents of her first three books were pretty casually tossed together,
> and
> > when she admitted that to another poet, he was shocked!  shocked! she
> would
> > do such a thing?
> >
> > Moira Russell
> > Seattle, WA
> >
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


From wasanthony at yahoo.com  Mon Oct 15 19:53:27 2001
From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 16:53:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] how to read a book of poems
In-Reply-To: <20011015234900.60941.qmail@web12101.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20011015235327.10345.qmail@web12107.mail.yahoo.com>

Ha!  Don't you just love typos.

- Jim

--- jcervantes <wasanthony at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> --- theoldmole <tadrichards at prodigy.net> wrote:
> > I'm pretty much chronological by date written. I never can think of
> > anything
> > else that works.
> > 
> 
> I am lost.   The subject line reads "hot to read a book of poems,"
> not
> "how to compile a book of poems."  And what do you mean by "works"?
> 
> - the other Jim
> 
> 
> =====
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
> Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
> "Ripples" @ <http://www.poetserv.net>
> Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
> http://personals.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
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> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
"Ripples" @ <http://www.poetserv.net>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

__________________________________________________
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Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com


From moira_russell at hotmail.com  Mon Oct 15 19:57:57 2001
From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 15:57:57 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] how to read a book of poems
Message-ID: <F1402fPmsSVhGOD6gx300006d6d@hotmail.com>

Halvard Johnson wrote:

>I had a friend who one told me that
>in trying to gauge a book (i.e. determine whether to buy/steal/read it)
>he'd read the first poem, the last poem, and the title poem, his point
>being that when I placed a title poem first or last I'd cut my chances
>of a "total read" by him by a third.

That sounds more like how I determine whether I want to buy any book, unless 
I've read it in a library edition and know I want it already -- looking at 
the opening of a novel, the middle, and the end, for example.  But when I 
settle down to _read_ the book, I usually go along with the author's order, 
just like when I listen to a symphony for the first time I don't play the 
third movement before the first one.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp



From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Mon Oct 15 20:17:40 2001
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 20:17:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] how to read a book of poems
References: <20011015234900.60941.qmail@web12101.mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <00c001c155d7$f8854e20$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

Jim -- I was just replying to a thread, not creating it, or somehow
diabolically trying to twist it to my own advantage. The original thread had
raised both questions: How do you read a book of poems? and How do you
organize your own manuscripts?

If I knew what "works" meant, I might be able to find something that worked.
Since I don't, I basically arrange poems chronologically.


  Tad Richards                       "Well said, old mole."
    The Old Mole                         Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet
    of the MoleNet                          Act I, Scene 5
          http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
----- Original Message -----
From: "jcervantes" <wasanthony at yahoo.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 7:49 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] how to read a book of poems


>
> --- theoldmole <tadrichards at prodigy.net> wrote:
> > I'm pretty much chronological by date written. I never can think of
> > anything
> > else that works.
> >
>
> I am lost.   The subject line reads "hot to read a book of poems," not
> "how to compile a book of poems."  And what do you mean by "works"?
>
> - the other Jim
>
>
> =====
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
> Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
> "Ripples" @ <http://www.poetserv.net>
> Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
> http://personals.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From gmcvay at patriot.net  Mon Oct 15 21:44:33 2001
From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:44:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jack Gilbert
In-Reply-To: <004001c155c7$76ad3440$18724342@twcny.rr.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0110152140410.30339-100000@adams.patriot.net>

On Mon, 15 Oct 2001, Joseph Duemer wrote:

> <<Call me squeamish, but it just all reminds me rather unpleasantly of James
> Dickey.>>
>
> It might have reminded you of Carolyn Forche's first book, which has some
> woodsy nakedness in it as well.

Just checked. It's *beachy* nakedness. Fewer pine needles, more sand.

Gwyn (Full disclosure: Forche was my thesis advisor; it is from her that I
picked up the terrible habit of showering nekkid. I know this practice is
immodest and can only dampen my skin, but I cannot help my imitativeness.)



From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Mon Oct 15 22:04:13 2001
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:04:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: how to read a book of poems
Message-ID: <200110160207.f9G273Q01643@mx7.mx.voyager.net>

Me too me too.  Like many poets, I agonize endlessly over ordering my poems
in collections. My system, such as it is, amounts to sorting into loose
piles, just as Joe Duemer does, then a fairly swift intuitive shuffle.  But
it takes me a long time to ready myself for that quick shuffle.

Titles are equally agonizing.  

But as a reader, of course, I ignore all such plans and read at whim, most
often back to front within randomly chosen sections.  

Russell Edson, as I recall, orders all his books alphabetically by poem
title.

David Graham
_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________

----------
>From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
>To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] how to read a book of poems
>Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001, 6:41 PM
>

>I suppose I take it seriously too, Moira, but I respond in precisely
>the opposite way, trying to defeat the author's orderly intentions by
>reading pretty much at random. I had a friend who one told me that
>in trying to gauge a book (i.e. determine whether to buy/steal/read it)
>he'd read the first poem, the last poem, and the title poem, his point
>being that when I placed a title poem first or last I'd cut my chances
>of a "total read" by him by a third. Anyway, I'm just sort of contrary,
>and while I'll order my poems carefully I don't expect or demand that
>that order be honored by readers. And I'm kinda fond of whimsical
>ordering like that recent Ashbery book in which the poems are
>arranged in alphabetical order by title.
>
>Hal     "The bacon too carries on its modest 
>            love affair."
>                       --Tony Towle
>Halvard Johnson


From duemer at clarkson.edu  Mon Oct 15 21:58:15 2001
From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 21:58:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jack Gilbert
References: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0110152140410.30339-100000@adams.patriot.net>
Message-ID: <006c01c155e6$0bb5fe00$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

Gwyn,
it was a much younger Forche who ran & shat on the beach & got the Yale
Younger Poets Prize for it. More power to her, I say. Just pointing out to
Moira that gals like to do it too.

jd
======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
======================







From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Mon Oct 15 22:36:10 2001
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 22:36:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: how to read a book of poems
References: <200110160207.f9G273Q01643@mx7.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <001f01c155eb$527417a0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

re

> Russell Edson, as I recall, orders all his books alphabetically by poem
> title.

Ashbery did that, in one of his books -- I think "Can You Hear, Bird?"

Of course, since Ashbery's titles have nothing to do with his poems, there's
no guarantee that he didn't write and alphabetize them all later.




  Tad Richards                       "Well said, old mole."
    The Old Mole                         Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet
    of the MoleNet                          Act I, Scene 5
          http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Graham" <grahamd at mail.ripon.edu>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 10:04 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: how to read a book of poems


> Me too me too.  Like many poets, I agonize endlessly over ordering my
poems
> in collections. My system, such as it is, amounts to sorting into loose
> piles, just as Joe Duemer does, then a fairly swift intuitive shuffle.
But
> it takes me a long time to ready myself for that quick shuffle.
>
> Titles are equally agonizing.
>
> But as a reader, of course, I ignore all such plans and read at whim, most
> often back to front within randomly chosen sections.
>
> Russell Edson, as I recall, orders all his books alphabetically by poem
> title.
>
> David Graham
> _______________________
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> _______________________
>
> ----------
> >From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
> >To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> >Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] how to read a book of poems
> >Date: Mon, Oct 15, 2001, 6:41 PM
> >
>
> >I suppose I take it seriously too, Moira, but I respond in precisely
> >the opposite way, trying to defeat the author's orderly intentions by
> >reading pretty much at random. I had a friend who one told me that
> >in trying to gauge a book (i.e. determine whether to buy/steal/read it)
> >he'd read the first poem, the last poem, and the title poem, his point
> >being that when I placed a title poem first or last I'd cut my chances
> >of a "total read" by him by a third. Anyway, I'm just sort of contrary,
> >and while I'll order my poems carefully I don't expect or demand that
> >that order be honored by readers. And I'm kinda fond of whimsical
> >ordering like that recent Ashbery book in which the poems are
> >arranged in alphabetical order by title.
> >
> >Hal     "The bacon too carries on its modest
> >            love affair."
> >                       --Tony Towle
> >Halvard Johnson
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From FanwoodJEL at aol.com  Mon Oct 15 22:55:27 2001
From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 22:55:27 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: how to read a book of poems
Message-ID: <2d.128c22bd.28fcfb9f@aol.com>

In a message dated 10/15/01 10:39:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
tadrichards at prodigy.net writes:

> Of course, since Ashbery's titles have nothing to do with his poems, there's
> no guarantee that he didn't write and alphabetize them all later.
> 
> 
You have it surely backwards. Ashbery's titles ARE the poems. The rest is 
commentary. Anyway, there's that wonderful Campbell McGrath poem, Zeugma, in 
which abecedarians come out second best to the boustrophedonics. For ordering 
poems per the Platonic ideal (had he thought about it, he'd have had one), 
I've been waiting for divine intervention. Still waiting. Meanwhile, here's 
Zeugma:
Jeffrey

> Zeugma. From the Greek, zeugnynai, to join together; from
> ??????a pair of animals linked at labor;
> yoked oxen. The Greeks, of course, for whom beginnings signified
> ??????better than endings, alpha & omega, for whom
> x was just another letter: xiphoid, xerophagy, xenophobia, xoanon.
> ??????Civilization, perforce, is abecedarian.
> When Xenophon's hoplites charged the Persians at Cunaxa he
> ??????denied the agency of local gods, mistaking
> vox populi, for vox angelica, voice of a suffering populace
> ??????entirely freed of fleshly yoke,
> uplifted in exquisite agony. Such are the costs of our transmigration.
> ??????Fish demand ladders, wooden horses
> transhumance, referring to reindeer but apropos in Ilium,
> ??????green-fingered Lydia or Mesopotamia,
> scene of the tidal clash of cultures & languages, ebbs & floods
> ??????hardly unique to Persians & Greeks.
> Recall the illiterate Pizarro against the hummingbird-feathered
> ??????Inca Atahualpa, sun-god & moon-
> queen trampled into celestial dust by a few dozen Spaniards
> ??????jointly with their horses, gunpowder, &
> priestly blessing to sanctify such slaughter in the name of the king of
> ??????kings. Back to Xenophon & the Ten Thousand:
> on the retreat now, following the Tigris, they come to a ruined city,
> ??????Larissa, inhabited by Medes, thought to be
> none other than Nimrud, ancient Kalhu, hippogriffs become
> ??????Medean in the wake of serial conquest,
> median point on their march from Babylon toward the hills of Armenia,
> ??????none cheered by that barren vision, dire
> Larissa, omen of defeat, citadel of political impermanence.
> ??????On the next day, great Nineveh, abandoned:
> kings, senechals, satraps, seraphs, jesters, fletchers, peltasts, potters,
> ??????priestly & noble classes?vanished con-
> jointly into equitable oblivion, weaver & wool, smith & tool,
> ??????queen & fool. So much for the Assyrians.
> Ink, a luxury, so no texts but wind-scoured stone remain to help us
> ??????recall them, our contemporary ignorance
> hardly less monumental than Xenophon's self-serving chronicle,
> ??????scene by scene inventing ancient history.
> Green no longer, that Fertile Crescent, mislabelled by an en-
> ??????tranced human stab at metaphoric order.
> Fish into amphibians, logograms into syllabaries, seas into lands
> ??????uplifted in autochthonic agons
> entirely unwitnessed, template free of cartographic correlatives,
> ??????vox barbara or vox nihilim, celestial music
> denied in our fury to claim an alphabet forged from the metals of chaos.
> ??????When the ox moves, the plow moves.
> Civilization, perforce, is boustrophedonic: x-y-z; z-y-
> ??????x. Better the blue mud of the Euphrates,
> better the raw ore of belief than these chains of syntax, this
> ??????yoke of definitions. Xoanon:
> a primitive idol resembling the rough block from which it was carved.
> ??????Zeugma: maker & vessel, master & slave.
> 



Jeffrey

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From aburack at mail.slc.edu  Tue Oct 16 09:10:22 2001
From: aburack at mail.slc.edu (Alexandra Burack)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 09:10:22 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] how to read a book of poems
References: <200110151754.f9FHsuM13852@sp1n189at0.watson.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <003d01c15643$ffdf33e0$910653c6@bzln101>

Hello Folks,

Felt I had to come out of lurkdom for this one, as I'm presently putting
together a small volume in order to graduate from an MFA program next
semester.

As someone who subscribes to the 'poems are made things' perspective, it
seems to me that by extension, books of poems are also made things, wherein
a writer embeds her/his intent in the unfolding shape of understanding in
the book as a whole, to borrow Robert Hass's phraseology. In other words, if
communication is the goal, if engagement of the reader is the goal, than
everything about the construction of a book will most likely speak to making
that goal manifest: in the organization of poems and the way poems relate to
one another; the development of a theme or a certain thematic, narrative, or
imagistic motion throughout; the modulation of tone, timbre, or color among
the poems; the choice of quotes of which a writer is fond, etc.

And as we've been speaking of Jack Gilbert, I've had the incomparable honor
to converse with him on several occasions, and on one of them he said that
poems don't mean *anything*. They mean *something*, something specific to a
writer's specific intent in that particular poem. I agree with Jack
completely, and would extend this kind of understanding to volumes of
poetry. What is it we wish the reader to walk away with after reading our
book? It can't be just "well, whatever the reader feels at that particular
moment" or "well, whatever the reader thinks the poems mean" because then,
anything and everything can be poetry and it hasn't mattered that we've put
down specific words in a specific order with a specific intent.

In contemplating the creation of a volume of poems myself, I've had to ask
myself very pointed questions about how I am communicating with readers. Do
I want them to notice most the friction of images between poems?;  to be
caught up in some tidal motion at the beginning and carried through till the
end?;  to follow one train of thought or one theme so as to create an
experience of depth of experience?, etc.

I for one believe that it does matter which poem comes before/after which
other one in a book of poems, and that the entire gesture of the book, in
the end, speaks to a specific intent of communication. The book as a whole
should *enact* the shape of understanding a writer wishes the reader to
experience, in the same way we enact experience in individual poems.

I think Gilbert's *The Great Fires* is a superb example of through-composed,
enacted experience. I would also say the same for Hass's *Human Wishes*,
Tony Hoagland's *donkey gospel*, Louise Gluck's *Arart*, Mary Oliver's
*House of Light*, and anything by Denis Johnson, Stephen Dobyns, and Stanley
Kunitz, just to name a few who come immediately to mind.

Thanks for listening,

Alexandra Burack

----- Original Message -----
From: <DICK at watson.ibm.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 15, 2001 1:50 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] how to read a book of poems


> Recently someone (Mill?) said she begins reading a book
> of poems in the middle, and progresses.  I think I recall
> someone a while back asking, "Does anyone read a book of
> poems from the beginning?"
>
> How do the authors on the list arrange their poems for
> a book?
>
> Richard
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From snospx at silcom.com  Mon Oct 15 22:31:41 2001
From: snospx at silcom.com (Barry Spacks)
Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2001 19:31:41 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jack Gilbert
In-Reply-To: <F58VjriLdElsBt8sBju00005f8c@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011015193141.007cf9a0@silcom.com>

At 08:12 AM 10/15/01 -0800, amid other telling comments, Moira Russell wrote:

>(As a final observation, the poem about the fish didn't seem all that 
>terribly different to me from a poem by Collins, particularly in the slack 
>diction and prosiness.)

well, they do both love to play games and ramble on, Gilbert
lacking only Collins' wit and dazzle of invention, Collins
Gilbert's freely associative obscurantism (hey, if I'm baffled it 
must be poetry, cause prose don't shake like that). 

B.


From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Tue Oct 16 02:38:09 2001
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 01:38:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Sleeper
Message-ID: <B7F14001.1EAF%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

                      A Sleeper

"What meanest thou, O sleeper? arise, call upon thy God, if so be that God
will think upon us, that we perish not." Jonah 1:6.


A voice said, "Go, and proclaim the destruction of Nineveh,"
And out of the desert I came, like a rumbling storm
To humble her pride, to call down fire and brimstone
To topple her towers and harrow her fertile fields
With salt of tears, to blast her teeming bazaars,
Heralding doom like a dark avenging angel.

I bought my ticket and waited in the narrow cabin
While the passengers tossed on deck and the long ship bucked;
I was eager to die
While the others paled and clutched at their brine-drenched throats,
And was glad when the sea gulped me down
To languish in the fishy entrails of Leviathan time
Till disgorged on your shore, to admonish a godless people.

Now I wait in a shabby room in a smoke-clogged lane
East of Nineveh, surveying the gray skyline
Like a tourist or alien guest as I gorge myself
On forbidden luxuries, eyeing your brazen women
With a hunger born in deserts of deprivation.
Seeing your livestock swoon, your iron-armed troops
Disarmed, your upright citizens
Appalled by ash and sackcloth, I rail at God
For discharging his bolt in a flicker of summer lightning
And cooling rain.
I crouch in the shade of a bush
While a worm gnaws the shading branch above my head
And a hot wind blows from the east,
Or drift in fevered dreams
Through my host city
Like a wind-borne plague
Among crowds packed and numberless as cattle.


Paul Lake



From JackKerouac25 at aol.com  Tue Oct 16 17:43:18 2001
From: JackKerouac25 at aol.com (JackKerouac25 at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:43:18 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Critiques Needed
Message-ID: <38.1d7640cf.28fe03f6@aol.com>

Howdy poetry folks,

I wanted some honest criticism on this piece.  Recently, I've received a 
whole slew of rejections, and I need somebody else to tell me how bad I suck.

Thanks for any critiques; I understand if you're all too busy to respond.



Shift Change

With a wipe of his nose and a stoic sneer,
he steps from his pick-up at 6:00 a.m.
Paper mill fumes threaten to choke him,
and thick gray smoke hangs low in the air.
The salty smell of the bay is also there,
but cut with acrid chemical fumes.
He thinks of the bay, beyond the mill, in the dim
morning light.  "I never meant to be here,"
he thinks when he considers all the dreams,
the plans to go to school, to leave this town,
to do something, to do anything at all.
Now, the winds shift south as another fall
begins.  He sniffs the air, the smell it brings-
the bay, beyond the mill, silent, mighty, and alone.

Jeff Newberry

Jeffrey L. Newberry
Adjunct Instructor
Department of English and Foreign Languages
University of West Florida
11000 University Parkway
Pensacola, FL  32514
850.474.2923
850.473.7330


From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Oct 16 18:41:48 2001
From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 18:41:48 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Critiques Needed
References: <38.1d7640cf.28fe03f6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3BCCB7AC.34BC@nut-n-but.net>

Honest, VERY unreflected-on immediate thoughts on:
 
> Shift Change
> 
> With a wipe of his nose and a stoic sneer,
> he steps from his pick-up at 6:00 a.m.

prose; could use condensation, some kind of fresh imagery

> Paper mill fumes threaten to choke him,
> and thick gray smoke hangs low in the air.
> The salty smell of the bay is also there,
> but cut with acrid chemical fumes.

ditto; the way I'd rough draft a go: "bay adds too little to the
sky to refute the paper mill in it."  I don't say that's good,
just what I think is a step toward the freshness your poems lacks,
for me.

> He thinks of the bay, beyond the mill, in the dim
> morning light.  "I never meant to be here,"
> he thinks when he considers all the dreams,
> the plans to go to school, to leave this town,
> to do something, to do anything at all.

Sorry but my reaction is so what.  His losses are too general,
too common.

> Now, the winds shift south as another fall
> begins.  He sniffs the air, the smell it brings-
> the bay, beyond the mill, silent, mighty, and alone.

Standard sort of Nature-as-redeemer epiphany but I like it--
but it needs richer language, for me.

                                          --Bob G.



From khodges at softhome.net  Tue Oct 16 19:24:39 2001
From: khodges at softhome.net (Kim Hodges)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 16:24:39 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] how to read a book of poems
In-Reply-To: <003d01c15643$ffdf33e0$910653c6@bzln101>
References: <200110151754.f9FHsuM13852@sp1n189at0.watson.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.0.20011016160449.021caec0@pop.softhome.net>

At 09:10 AM 10/16/01 -0400, you wrote:

>Hello Folks,
>
>Felt I had to come out of lurkdom for this one, as I'm presently putting
>together a small volume in order to graduate from an MFA program next
>semester.
>
>As someone who subscribes to the 'poems are made things' perspective, it
>seems to me that by extension, books of poems are also made things, wherein
>a writer embeds her/his intent in the unfolding shape of understanding in
>the book as a whole, to borrow Robert Hass's phraseology. In other words, if
>communication is the goal, if engagement of the reader is the goal, than
>everything about the construction of a book will most likely speak to making
>that goal manifest: in the organization of poems and the way poems relate to
>one another; the development of a theme or a certain thematic, narrative, or
>imagistic motion throughout; the modulation of tone, timbre, or color among
>the poems; the choice of quotes of which a writer is fond, etc.

True, many books of poems may be carefully constructed.  But that does
not negate the reader's delight in dipping a toe in here or there.  That
is like treasure-hunting.  And it works partly, no doubt, because of
our belief in the underlying order.  Let's see what's at this point ....or
at this point.  Like a geologist drilling a core into the earth.  Or like
people who open a Bible randomly and read the page they land on.
Or closing your eyes and putting your finger on a map to get your
destination.

I think for most readers the order in a poetry book is mostly
a feel of cohesiveness, with a few oddities here and there, rather
than a definite linearity.  There are, though, some books that
have a really overt order.  And with those I would certainly want
to read them straight through.  I can think of a few where the book
is really one long poem divided into sections.  In that case, there
is a story element that probably should be followed.  In some of
these that I have read, certain sections might not be appreciated
if read out of order, as the whole stands together. But even then,
there are usually shifts and changes in approach, such that certain
sections stand out and one wants to read them again, on their
own.

I suppose Hughes' Birthday Letters is intended to have a definite
sequence.  But even here, I preferred to dip around in it  -- with
the benefit also of getting a sample without having to read the
whole thing.

                         - Kim




From duemer at clarkson.edu  Tue Oct 16 19:40:45 2001
From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 19:40:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Critiques Needed
References: <38.1d7640cf.28fe03f6@aol.com> <3BCCB7AC.34BC@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <006901c1569b$fa70ca60$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

Bob G writes of the following lines:
"prose; could use condensation, some kind of fresh imagery"

"With a wipe of his nose and a stoic sneer,
he steps from his pick-up at 6:00 a.m."

If you added the phrase "with a beer" to the end of the second line you
would have Dr. Seuss dactyls--not what the poet intended of course, but
hardly prose.

jd
======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
======================







From duemer at clarkson.edu  Tue Oct 16 19:41:47 2001
From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 19:41:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Critiques Needed
References: <38.1d7640cf.28fe03f6@aol.com> <3BCCB7AC.34BC@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <006a01c1569c$1f2b41a0$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

""Paper mill fumes threaten to choke him . . ."

Pathetic fallacy.

jd
======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750 
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
====================== 







From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Oct 16 20:16:23 2001
From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:16:23 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Critiques Needed
References: <38.1d7640cf.28fe03f6@aol.com> <3BCCB7AC.34BC@nut-n-but.net> <006901c1569b$fa70ca60$18724342@twcny.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3BCCCDD7.1A13@nut-n-but.net>

Joseph Duemer wrote:
> 
> Bob G writes of the following lines:
> "prose; could use condensation, some kind of fresh imagery"
> 
> "With a wipe of his nose and a stoic sneer,
> he steps from his pick-up at 6:00 a.m."
> 
> If you added the phrase "with a beer" to the end of the second line you
> would have Dr. Seuss dactyls--not what the poet intended of course, but
> hardly prose.

I think it pretty obvious what I meant.

                                              --Bob G.



From duemer at clarkson.edu  Tue Oct 16 20:14:04 2001
From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:14:04 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Critiques Needed
References: <38.1d7640cf.28fe03f6@aol.com> <3BCCB7AC.34BC@nut-n-but.net> <006901c1569b$fa70ca60$18724342@twcny.rr.com> <3BCCCDD7.1A13@nut-n-but.net>
Message-ID: <007101c156a0$a17c0460$18724342@twcny.rr.com>

I think it's pretty obvious that the first line sets up a metrical
expectation--that is to anyone with half an ear.
======================
Joseph Duemer
School of Liberal Arts, 5750
Clarkson University
Potsdam NY 13699
315.268.3967
======================







From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Tue Oct 16 20:48:27 2001
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 20:48:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Critiques Needed
References: <38.1d7640cf.28fe03f6@aol.com>
Message-ID: <004d01c156a5$8a241e60$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

Jeff - I can see that a bunch of others have already responded to this, and
I haven't read there's yet, so I'm probably repeating everything that's been
said already, but here goes.

First thought - the jaunty rhythm undercuts the serious subject matter. It
feels like the rhythm of light verse.

You also lose the rhythm in a few lines - lines 5 and 7 of the first stanza,
for example, and that undercuts the jauntiness. The strong and unexpected
enjambment at the end of line 7 also adds to the sense that the writer is
out of control - both of subject matter and form.

I know you want this to be a formal poem, but I think you might experiment
with some other forms, some other lines, including some open forms. I'd be
interested to see how it sounds in a Ginsbergian long line.

And I'd keep him there, by the bay, by the mill. I'd stay away from his
dreams, his lost plans. They're so general...they don't give us any new
sense of him as an individual. I'd try to find a way to give us that side of
him that comes from where he is.


  Tad Richards                       "Well said, old mole."
    The Old Mole                         Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet
    of the MoleNet                          Act I, Scene 5
          http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
----- Original Message -----
From: <JackKerouac25 at aol.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, October 16, 2001 5:43 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Critiques Needed


> Howdy poetry folks,
>
> I wanted some honest criticism on this piece.  Recently, I've received a
> whole slew of rejections, and I need somebody else to tell me how bad I
suck.
>
> Thanks for any critiques; I understand if you're all too busy to respond.
>
>
>
> Shift Change
>
> With a wipe of his nose and a stoic sneer,
> he steps from his pick-up at 6:00 a.m.
> Paper mill fumes threaten to choke him,
> and thick gray smoke hangs low in the air.
> The salty smell of the bay is also there,
> but cut with acrid chemical fumes.
> He thinks of the bay, beyond the mill, in the dim
> morning light.  "I never meant to be here,"
> he thinks when he considers all the dreams,
> the plans to go to school, to leave this town,
> to do something, to do anything at all.
> Now, the winds shift south as another fall
> begins.  He sniffs the air, the smell it brings-
> the bay, beyond the mill, silent, mighty, and alone.
>
> Jeff Newberry
>
> Jeffrey L. Newberry
> Adjunct Instructor
> Department of English and Foreign Languages
> University of West Florida
> 11000 University Parkway
> Pensacola, FL  32514
> 850.474.2923
> 850.473.7330
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Tue Oct 16 23:00:24 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 23:00:24 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Critiques Needed
Message-ID: <13f.30348e9.28fe4e48@cs.com>

In a message dated 10/16/2001 4:44:49 PM Central Daylight Time, 
JackKerouac25 at aol.com writes:


> With a wipe of his nose and a stoic sneer,
> he steps from his pick-up at 6:00 a.m.
> Paper mill fumes threaten to choke him,
> and thick gray smoke hangs low in the air.
> The salty smell of the bay is also there,
> but cut with acrid chemical fumes.
> He thinks of the bay, beyond the mill, in the dim
> morning light.  "I never meant to be here,"
> he thinks when he considers all the dreams,
> the plans to go to school, to leave this town,
> to do something, to do anything at all.
> Now, the winds shift south as another fall
> begins.  He sniffs the air, the smell it brings-
> the bay, beyond the mill, silent, mighty, and alone.
> 

Jeff, most of the problems for me are in the modifiers: "stoic sneer" tells 
rather than shows.  "Acrid," "thick gray," "salty," and "dim morning light" 
are all too easily expected.  When you say, "and the smell it brings" you 
don't lift it beyond prose.  Even if you said something like "and the years 
it brings" you'd be pushing the poem toward a higher level of metaphor.  
Sometimes you can make rather pat modifiers work by "transferring the 
epithet"-- "low smoke hangs in the thick gray air" sounds a little better to 
me.
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From halvard at earthlink.net  Tue Oct 16 23:01:01 2001
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 23:01:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Critiques Needed
In-Reply-To: <007101c156a0$a17c0460$18724342@twcny.rr.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEOEHPEDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

> I think it's pretty obvious that the first line sets up a metrical
> expectation--that is to anyone with half an ear.

And to any of us fortunate enough to have two entire ones?

Hal     "The bacon too carries on its modest 
            love affair."
                       --Tony Towle
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html


From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Oct 17 05:47:14 2001
From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 05:47:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Critiques Needed
References: <38.1d7640cf.28fe03f6@aol.com> <3BCCB7AC.34BC@nut-n-but.net> <006901c1569b$fa70ca60$18724342@twcny.rr.com> <3BCCCDD7.1A13@nut-n-but.net> <007101c156a0$a17c0460$18724342@twcny.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3BCD53A2.787A@nut-n-but.net>

When I said "prose," I meant "prosaic," meaning the choice
of words was that of a journalist more than that of what
I would call a poet, so you Did catch me in being a Poor
Critic.  Congratulations.

                                   --Bob G.

Joseph Duemer wrote:
> 
> I think it's pretty obvious that the first line sets up a metrical
> expectation--that is to anyone with half an ear.
> ======================
> Joseph Duemer
> School of Liberal Arts, 5750
> Clarkson University
> Potsdam NY 13699



From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Oct 17 10:00:56 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:00:56 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: how to read a book of poems
Message-ID: <f7.10eab716.28fee918@aol.com>

Am I correct in saying the advent of 
"making a book of poems" (crafting the
order of the contents) rather than publishing
a miscellany/collection of recent work,
is a relatively new thing for poetry? Has
anyone studied this phenomenon? When did 
this "book building" start to occur...just in last half 
of the 20thC? Or are there many earlier examples? 
Whitman, who self-published, I think, took
some pains in ordering the poems for his 
Leaves of Grass through its various editions. 
But, historically, did many poets and their 
publishers concern themselves very much with 
the order/synchronicity/interplay of poems 
in a collection? 

I've always had the bias toward each poem
being a self-contained cosmos unto itself.
And often dislike discrete poems that depend
too much, for their understanding/affect, on other
poems in the collection. Unless, of course,
 the poems are clearly part of a series or suite
of poems and published in such a way that
their interrelationship is made clear...like within
a section of the book.
Finnegan


From pihel_e at pipeline.com  Wed Oct 17 10:22:05 2001
From: pihel_e at pipeline.com (pihel_e at pipeline.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:22:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: how to read a book of poems
Message-ID: <Springmail.105.1003328525.0.23101900@www.springmail.com>

Vergil's Eclogues (43 BCE) is the first book that I know of in which the order of poems was deliberately arranged.  It was also the first book written specifically for the papyrus sheet rather than a poetry performance.  The order of the poems was not chronological, as Eclogue IX is an appeal to save Vergil?s father?s farm, while Eclogue I is written after the farm has been saved. Each poem was a distinct unit, separate from the other poems, but, taken together, told a story.

Erik Pihel
pihel_e at pipeline.com

new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote:
> Am I correct in saying the advent of 
"making a book of poems" (crafting the
order of the contents) rather than publishing
a miscellany/collection of recent work,
is a relatively new thing for poetry?



From Henry_Gould at brown.edu  Wed Oct 17 10:23:00 2001
From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:23:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: how to read a book of poems
In-Reply-To: <f7.10eab716.28fee918@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011017101511.00aa3100@postoffice.brown.edu>

Not that new - it may have started with the Alexandrians, or Virgil's 
Eclogues, or Ovid's Tristia. . .
it was very important to Yeats... Mandelstam as usual had an idiosyncratic 
approach.  He was
interested in the phenomenon of clusters of poems -not so much "sequences" 
as simultaneous
arrivals. . . the printed poem was the residue of multiple, 
equally-important drafts (produced
not by writing but by "working with the voice").  VERY good new study out 
by Elena
Glazov-Corrigan: Mandelshtam's Poetics:a Challenge to Postmodernism(Univ of 
Toronto Press).
Ask your library to order it!

Henry

At 10:00 AM 10/17/01 -0400, you wrote:
>Am I correct in saying the advent of
>"making a book of poems" (crafting the
>order of the contents) rather than publishing
>a miscellany/collection of recent work,
>is a relatively new thing for poetry? Has
>anyone studied this phenomenon? When did
>this "book building" start to occur...just in last half
>of the 20thC? Or are there many earlier examples?
>Whitman, who self-published, I think, took
>some pains in ordering the poems for his
>Leaves of Grass through its various editions.
>But, historically, did many poets and their
>publishers concern themselves very much with
>the order/synchronicity/interplay of poems
>in a collection?
>
>I've always had the bias toward each poem
>being a self-contained cosmos unto itself.
>And often dislike discrete poems that depend
>too much, for their understanding/affect, on other
>poems in the collection. Unless, of course,
>  the poems are clearly part of a series or suite
>of poems and published in such a way that
>their interrelationship is made clear...like within
>a section of the book.
>Finnegan
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
********************************************************
HG afloat:  www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html
www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark
    "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam




From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 17 10:26:34 2001
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:26:34 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Naming the war
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEIHEDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

In a letter to the *New York Times* this ayem,
Ira Levin expresses agreement with a recent op-ed
piece criticizing both "Infinite Justice" and "Enduring
Freedom" as monikers for our current war, saying
both "could only have been chosen, as they were,
by computers and generals. He then wonders why
our poet laureate Billy Collins wasn't called up for
duty: "What's he there for? I'll give you odds that
he can come up with a dozen snappy names that
are infinitely and enduringly better."

What I'm wondering is how the august assemblage
of poets on this list would handle the task.

Hal            "language--the Riviera of consciousness"
                                 --Bob Perelman

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html



From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Wed Oct 17 10:34:19 2001
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:34:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: how to read a book of poems
References: <f7.10eab716.28fee918@aol.com>
Message-ID: <009001c15718$ce7832e0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

I'm guessing that "Lyrical Ballads" must have been organized with some care.
But I don't know for sure.


  Tad Richards                       "Well said, old mole."
    The Old Mole                         Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet
    of the MoleNet                          Act I, Scene 5
          http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
----- Original Message -----
From: <JforJames at aol.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: how to read a book of poems


> Am I correct in saying the advent of
> "making a book of poems" (crafting the
> order of the contents) rather than publishing
> a miscellany/collection of recent work,
> is a relatively new thing for poetry? Has
> anyone studied this phenomenon? When did
> this "book building" start to occur...just in last half
> of the 20thC? Or are there many earlier examples?
> Whitman, who self-published, I think, took
> some pains in ordering the poems for his
> Leaves of Grass through its various editions.
> But, historically, did many poets and their
> publishers concern themselves very much with
> the order/synchronicity/interplay of poems
> in a collection?
>
> I've always had the bias toward each poem
> being a self-contained cosmos unto itself.
> And often dislike discrete poems that depend
> too much, for their understanding/affect, on other
> poems in the collection. Unless, of course,
>  the poems are clearly part of a series or suite
> of poems and published in such a way that
> their interrelationship is made clear...like within
> a section of the book.
> Finnegan
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From wasanthony at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 17 10:37:47 2001
From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 07:37:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Naming the war
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEIHEDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <20011017143747.99164.qmail@web12103.mail.yahoo.com>

"First War of the 21st Century" or "Smoke 'em if you Git 'em"

- Jim

--- Halvard Johnson <halvard at earthlink.net> wrote:
> In a letter to the *New York Times* this ayem,
> Ira Levin expresses agreement with a recent op-ed
> piece criticizing both "Infinite Justice" and "Enduring
> Freedom" as monikers for our current war, saying
> both "could only have been chosen, as they were,
> by computers and generals. He then wonders why
> our poet laureate Billy Collins wasn't called up for
> duty: "What's he there for? I'll give you odds that
> he can come up with a dozen snappy names that
> are infinitely and enduringly better."
> 
> What I'm wondering is how the august assemblage
> of poets on this list would handle the task.
> 
> Hal            "language--the Riviera of consciousness"
>                                  --Bob Perelman
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> email: halvard at earthlink.net
> website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
"Ripples" @ <http://www.poetserv.net>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

__________________________________________________
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Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
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From jdavis at panix.com  Wed Oct 17 10:47:02 2001
From: jdavis at panix.com (Jordan Davis)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:47:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: how to read a book of poems
In-Reply-To: <009001c15718$ce7832e0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.40.0110171046450.21958-100000@panix1.panix.com>

Yes, they should call it Operation Lyrical Ballads.

Jordan




From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Wed Oct 17 11:04:28 2001
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:04:28 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:how to read a book of poems
Message-ID: <200110171507.f9HF7Sj54763@mx7.mx.voyager.net>

Yes, many examples of dogged organizers spring to mind:  Whitman, yes, and
also Wordsworth, Yeats, Hardy. . . .  What strikes me now is how little I
care, finally, for their organizational schemes--particularly such ex post
facto arranging of already written work.  I have not found my reading to be
much deepened by such things as Hardy's placement of poems into categories
like "poems of pilgrimage" and "poems of the past and present."  Likewise
Whitman's "Sea Drift," "By the Roadside," "Children of Adam," "Birds of
Passage," and so forth.  I find I can't always remember which notable poems
were slottted into which category, and thus the labels serve mainly as an
annoyance when I'm trying to remember where "Crossing Brooklyn Ferry" might
be located.  

In the very long run, we remember poems more than collections, don't we? 
Many gems of the canon have persisted far beyond their original placement as
songs or speeches in specific plays, for instance.

Then there are poets--Robert Penn Warren springs to mind--whose
organizational schemes grow truly baroque, and every poem seems to appear as
part of a sequence, sometimes several nested within each other.  

As I've said, I do obsess a good deal over organizing my own collections. 
But I doubt very many readers care greatly, or notice (well, I mean, even if
I were to *have* readers. . . .)  In any case, for me such planning and
organization seems useful mostly a self-development tool.  

David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________

----------
>From: JforJames at aol.com
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: how to read a book of poems
>Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001, 9:00 AM
>

>Am I correct in saying the advent of 
>"making a book of poems" (crafting the
>order of the contents) rather than publishing
>a miscellany/collection of recent work,
>is a relatively new thing for poetry? Has
>anyone studied this phenomenon? When did 
>this "book building" start to occur...just in last half 
>of the 20thC? Or are there many earlier examples? 
>Whitman, who self-published, I think, took
>some pains in ordering the poems for his 
>Leaves of Grass through its various editions. 
>But, historically, did many poets and their 
>publishers concern themselves very much with 
>the order/synchronicity/interplay of poems 
>in a collection? 
>
>I've always had the bias toward each poem
>being a self-contained cosmos unto itself.
>And often dislike discrete poems that depend
>too much, for their understanding/affect, on other
>poems in the collection. Unless, of course,
> the poems are clearly part of a series or suite
>of poems and published in such a way that
>their interrelationship is made clear...like within
>a section of the book.
>Finnegan
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Wed Oct 17 11:15:49 2001
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:15:49 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Naming the war
Message-ID: <200110171511.f9HFBej96911@mx10.mx.voyager.net>

I'd handle the task, Hal, by running away screaming.  So would you, I bet.  

Such things always put me deliciously in mind of the time Marianne Moore was
invited to name the Ford product that eventually was dubbed The Edsel.  She
can't be blamed for "Edsel," of course, but her own suggestions ranged from
bad to hilariously bad:  Utopian Turtletop, The Ford Silver Sword, Hurrican
Hirundo, Aeroterre, Pastelogram, Dearborn Diamente, Regna Racer, The
Reslient Bullet, The Intelligent Whale, The Arc-en-Ciel, Magigravure, and
(my personal favorite),  Mongoose Civique.

Hell, let's call the war on terrorism The Resilient Bullet. . .  .

David Graham
_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________

----------
>From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
>To: "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Naming the war
>Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001, 9:26 AM
>

>In a letter to the *New York Times* this ayem,
>Ira Levin expresses agreement with a recent op-ed
>piece criticizing both "Infinite Justice" and "Enduring
>Freedom" as monikers for our current war, saying
>both "could only have been chosen, as they were,
>by computers and generals. He then wonders why
>our poet laureate Billy Collins wasn't called up for
>duty: "What's he there for? I'll give you odds that
>he can come up with a dozen snappy names that
>are infinitely and enduringly better."
>
>What I'm wondering is how the august assemblage
>of poets on this list would handle the task.
>
>Hal            "language--the Riviera of consciousness"
>                                 --Bob Perelman
>


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Oct 17 11:16:02 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 11:16:02 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:how to read a book of poems
Message-ID: <94.1b7e3a7c.28fefab2@cs.com>

Marilyn Nelson's The Fields of Praise, which is a new and selected work, 
strikes me as an example of a book that could have been better organized.  
Some of the poems out of the "Homeplace" sequence are displaced, and there's 
very little sense of chronological development.  I asked Marilyn about this, 
for the arrangement was my only quibble with the book when I reviewed it.  
"Oh," she said, "a friend and I met at SAMLA, and we spread out all the poems 
on the floor of our room and arranged the manuscript."
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From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Oct 17 11:16:20 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 11:16:20 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sarabande Books - New Website
Message-ID: <151.29c6b23.28fefac4@aol.com>

Dear friends and associates,

Just to let you know, Sarabande Books has completely redesigned our Website, 
<A HREF="http://www.SarabandeBooks.org">www.SarabandeBooks.org</A>.  The new 
site not only has a more streamlined look and feel, but you are now able to:

-  Search our catalog online via author name, title, ISBN, or keywords
-  Find additional materials about each title including book excerpts (some 
of entire chapters or poems), author interviews, complete author bios, and 
up-to-date review quotes and blurbs
-  Read recent Sarabande news about grants, educational programs, contest 
winners, and forthcoming titles
-  View a current listing of our author tours, complete with links to 
participating venues and other informational sites
-  Visit our similarly updated <A HREF="http://www.sarabandebooks.org/sie">
Sarabande in Education Website</A> that now has redesigned reader's guides, 
an updated discussion area, chat archives, and SIE news 

I hope this new site is helpful to you, and please don't hesitate to contact 
me should you have any suggestions or queries.


Best wishes,


Nickole Brown
Director of Marketing
Sarabande Books, Inc.
2234 Dundee Road, Suite 200
Louisville, KY  40205


From moira_russell at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 17 11:21:48 2001
From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 07:21:48 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: how to read a book of poems
Message-ID: <F832p5VjF4YH8vfYn9r00009935@hotmail.com>

Re ordering:  Hesiod's "Works and Days" follows the natural calendar, I 
believe.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

_________________________________________________________________
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From Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu  Wed Oct 17 11:23:48 2001
From: Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu (Edward Byrne)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 10:23:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:how to read a book of poems
In-Reply-To: <200110171507.f9HF7Sj54763@mx7.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <SIMEON.10110171048.D@muahost.valpo.edu>

I've always been interested in the organization of poems, especially 
by poets like Warren who seem so concerned about their ordering of 
works. For this reason, I always insist that my students who write 
papers about poets use the original texts, rather than anthologies or 
"collected works" as sources.

In my own books, I have always separated them into sections and ordered 
the poems throughout for reading from front to back.  In fact, I am 
currently examining proofs for my next book due out by the end of the 
year. (I'll wait until then to plug it!)  This collection, admittedly 
influenced by Warren's various series of individual poems, takes my 
organization of poems to a new limit since it is a 64-page book-length 
diptych, two 12-poem sequences that mirror one another.

--Edward Byrne

> Yes, many examples of dogged organizers spring to mind:  Whitman, yes, 
> and also Wordsworth, Yeats, Hardy. . . .  What strikes me now is how 
> little I care, finally, for their organizational schemes--particularly 
> such ex post facto arranging of already written work.  I have not found 
> my reading to be much deepened by such things as Hardy's placement of 
> poems into categories like "poems of pilgrimage" and "poems of the past 
> and present."  Likewise Whitman's "Sea Drift," "By the Roadside," 
> "Children of Adam," "Birds of Passage," and so forth.  I find I can't 
> always remember which notable poems were slottted into which category, 
> and thus the labels serve mainly as an annoyance when I'm trying to 
> remember where "Crossing Brooklyn Ferry" might be located.  
> 
> In the very long run, we remember poems more than collections, don't 
> we? Many gems of the canon have persisted far beyond their original 
> placement as songs or speeches in specific plays, for instance.
> 
> Then there are poets--Robert Penn Warren springs to mind--whose
> organizational schemes grow truly baroque, and every poem seems to 
> appear as part of a sequence, sometimes several nested within each 
> other.  
> 
> As I've said, I do obsess a good deal over organizing my own 
> collections. But I doubt very many readers care greatly, or notice 
> (well, I mean, even if I were to *have* readers. . . .)  In any case, 
> for me such planning and organization seems useful mostly a 
> self-development tool.  
> 
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> _______________________
> 

--------------------------------------------------

Edward Byrne
Department of English
322 Huegli Hall
Valparaiso University
Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493

E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu
http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/

Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review
E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu
http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/
Office Phone: (219) 464-5278
Fax: (219) 464-5511

--------------------------------------------------



From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 17 11:40:39 2001
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 08:40:39 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:how to read a book of poems
References: <SIMEON.10110171048.D@muahost.valpo.edu>
Message-ID: <3BCDA677.1426B85C@earthlink.net>

Heisod.....FOLLOWS....
The Natural Calendar?

Is that sort of like Natural Artificial Flavoring?

Chris




From moira_russell at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 17 11:46:38 2001
From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 07:46:38 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:how to read a book of poems
Message-ID: <F95pLcEcLsXJB7oDaSe00009c8d@hotmail.com>

>Heisod.....FOLLOWS....
>The Natural Calendar?

It is a book with a lot of advice about farming.  Does that make it clearer 
for you?


_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp



From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 17 12:00:26 2001
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 12:00:26 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:how to read a book of poems
In-Reply-To: <94.1b7e3a7c.28fefab2@cs.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEILEDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

That's pretty close to the way I do it, Sam. What I'm wondering is why
you're looking for a "sense of chronological development" in a book of
poems. Do you admire a book more when the last poem is better than
the first? Or is it a sort of thematic development you're seeking?

Hal     "When you come to a fork in the road--
            take it!"
                         --Yogi Berra

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html


  -----Original Message-----
  From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu]On Behalf Of Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
  Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 11:16 AM
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re:how to read a book of poems


  Marilyn Nelson's The Fields of Praise, which is a new and selected work,
strikes me as an example of a book that could have been better organized.
Some of the poems out of the "Homeplace" sequence are displaced, and there's
very little sense of chronological development.  I asked Marilyn about this,
for the arrangement was my only quibble with the book when I reviewed it.
"Oh," she said, "a friend and I met at SAMLA, and we spread out all the
poems on the floor of our room and arranged the manuscript."
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From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Wed Oct 17 12:14:27 2001
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 11:14:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: :how to read a book of poems
Message-ID: <200110171614.f9HGEkB03092@mx1.mx.voyager.net>

My pet peeve is selected or collected books that give inadequate indication
of where individual poems came from.  How hard is it to give a few dates, or
at least indicate which poems came from which individual volumes?  Strange
how many collections ignore such niceties.  

I'm just curious to follow a poet's evolution over time--which is what Sam
was thinking of, in terms of Marilyn Nelson's selected volume, I'm sure.   

David Graham
_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________

----------
From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Re:how to read a book of poems
Date: Wed, Oct 17, 2001, 11:00 AM


That's pretty close to the way I do it, Sam. What I'm wondering is why
you're looking for a "sense of chronological development" in a book of 
poems. Do you admire a book more when the last poem is better than
the first? Or is it a sort of thematic development you're seeking?
 
Hal     "When you come to a fork in the road--
            take it!"
                         --Yogi Berra

Halvard Johnson
===============


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From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Oct 17 13:05:04 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 13:05:04 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Naming the war
Message-ID: <122.5f9ffc5.28ff1440@aol.com>

Surgical Strike: In warfare, the equivalent of 
your surgeon taking out your appendix with a pickax.


Rumble in the Rubble

Operation Turning Over Rocks


From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 17 13:16:25 2001
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 13:16:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:how to read a book of poems
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEIEILEDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEIMEDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Many apologies, Sam. I missed the "new and selected" part of
your message.

Hal
  -----Original Message-----
  From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu]On Behalf Of Halvard Johnson
  Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 12:00 PM
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Re:how to read a book of poems


  That's pretty close to the way I do it, Sam. What I'm wondering is why
  you're looking for a "sense of chronological development" in a book of
  poems. Do you admire a book more when the last poem is better than
  the first? Or is it a sort of thematic development you're seeking?

  Hal     "When you come to a fork in the road--
              take it!"
                           --Yogi Berra

  Halvard Johnson
  ===============
  email: halvard at earthlink.net
  website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html


    -----Original Message-----
    From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu
[mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu]On Behalf Of Rsgwynn1 at cs.com
    Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 11:16 AM
    To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re:how to read a book of poems


    Marilyn Nelson's The Fields of Praise, which is a new and selected work,
strikes me as an example of a book that could have been better organized.
Some of the poems out of the "Homeplace" sequence are displaced, and there's
very little sense of chronological development.  I asked Marilyn about this,
for the arrangement was my only quibble with the book when I reviewed it.
"Oh," she said, "a friend and I met at SAMLA, and we spread out all the
poems on the floor of our room and arranged the manuscript."
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Oct 17 13:41:41 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 13:41:41 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:how to read a book of poems
Message-ID: <fb.1b6f19de.28ff1cd5@cs.com>

In a message dated 10/17/01 11:01:54 AM Central Daylight Time, 
halvard at earthlink.net writes:


> That's pretty close to the way I do it, Sam. What I'm wondering is why
> you're looking for a "sense of chronological development" in a book of 
> poems. Do you admire a book more when the last poem is better than
> the first? Or is it a sort of thematic development you're seeking?
>  
> 

I like to see development if it's a selected or collected edition, not a 
single book.  
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Oct 17 13:42:09 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 13:42:09 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: :how to read a book of poems
Message-ID: <38.1d82981b.28ff1cf1@cs.com>

In a message dated 10/17/01 11:15:41 AM Central Daylight Time, 
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu writes:


> 
> I'm just curious to follow a poet's evolution over time--which is what Sam 
> was thinking of, in terms of Marilyn Nelson's selected volume, I'm sure.   
> 
> 

That's it.
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From michael.ritchie at mail.atu.edu  Wed Oct 17 13:48:56 2001
From: michael.ritchie at mail.atu.edu (Michael Karl Ritchie)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 12:48:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Naming the war
Message-ID: <v02140b00b7f374f2962f@[199.184.205.120]>

Operation Bloodlust




From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Oct 17 15:00:51 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 15:00:51 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:how to read a book of poems
Message-ID: <6d.1bf6b752.28ff2f63@aol.com>

In a message dated 10/17/01 11:17:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes:

> h," she said, "a friend and I met at SAMLA, and we spread out all the poems 
>  on the floor of our room and arranged the manuscript."
> 

I've heard of other poets using this technique....walking through
the poems laid out on the floor to get a sense of what is there to
work with...I don't know how well it works, but I do like the idea of 
making what is just text into something a little more like 
visual/perfomance art. 
Finnegan


From MillB at aol.com  Wed Oct 17 15:24:49 2001
From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 15:24:49 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:how to read a book of poems
Message-ID: <64.14c0a4f4.28ff3501@aol.com>

Greetings:

My favorite story about this is not related to poetry--but non-fiction.

When Gay Talese was my teacher at USC, he told us how he used the cardboard 
backings that come in shirt packages (his father was a tailor) to organize 
his thoughts.  He'd write outlines of each chapter on pieces of cardboard and 
then arrange them on the wall, all around the room. And then, looking at the 
outlines, he'd write.

Mill


From adead_poet at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 17 15:30:21 2001
From: adead_poet at hotmail.com (dead poet)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 14:30:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] titling collections
Message-ID: <F10qR77bieLYCT4aJ6p00014ce7@hotmail.com>

all this talk of sequence in collections has me wondering how you decide on 
what to title the collection. is the title poem chosen long before you 
assemble the poems? do you pick the best poem? favorite? or title it 
something other than a title of one of the poems? what do you think about 
other poet's titles? and does anyone just title it 'poems' like many have in 
the past?

jason

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From wasanthony at yahoo.com  Wed Oct 17 15:58:37 2001
From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 12:58:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:how to read a book of poems
In-Reply-To: <F95pLcEcLsXJB7oDaSe00009c8d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20011017195837.97416.qmail@web12104.mail.yahoo.com>

--- Moira Russell <moira_russell at hotmail.com> wrote:
> 
> >Heisod.....FOLLOWS....
> >The Natural Calendar?
> 
> It is a book with a lot of advice about farming.  Does that make it
> clearer 
> for you?

Just what are you trying to say, Moira?

- Jim, who follows the natural calendar daily


=====
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net
Salt River Review: <http://www.poetserv.org/>
"Ripples" @ <http://www.poetserv.net>
Poetserv:  <http://www.poetserv.com/>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

__________________________________________________
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Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals.
http://personals.yahoo.com


From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com  Wed Oct 17 16:42:46 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 13:42:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Naming the war
Message-ID: <20011017204246.4362636F9@sitemail.everyone.net>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20011017/e80b3fc6/attachment.ksh>

From bardo at optonline.net  Wed Oct 17 21:14:55 2001
From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 21:14:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: how to read a book of poems
References: <f7.10eab716.28fee918@aol.com>
Message-ID: <00ae01c15772$4c227760$7692be18@DanielZimmerman>

Well, Blake certainly coordinated his materials carefully in Songs of
Innocence and Experience & The Marriage of Heaven and Hell, as also later in
Milton & Jerusalem--following the practices of Milton in PL and of Dante on
the Commedia. This may go back to Homer, for that matter. Plenty of
scholarship focuses on the design of such works.
The order of Donne's Holy Sonnets has also provoked some interesting
discussion. The interest in 'minute particulars' has interested poets for
millennia. I suspect that Arabic & Persian poets have especially intricate
structures in their works (any experts out there willing to confirm or
deny?).

Dan

----- Original Message -----
From: <JforJames at aol.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 10:00 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: how to read a book of poems


> Am I correct in saying the advent of
> "making a book of poems" (crafting the
> order of the contents) rather than publishing
> a miscellany/collection of recent work,
> is a relatively new thing for poetry? Has
> anyone studied this phenomenon? When did
> this "book building" start to occur...just in last half
> of the 20thC? Or are there many earlier examples?
> Whitman, who self-published, I think, took
> some pains in ordering the poems for his
> Leaves of Grass through its various editions.
> But, historically, did many poets and their
> publishers concern themselves very much with
> the order/synchronicity/interplay of poems
> in a collection?
>
> I've always had the bias toward each poem
> being a self-contained cosmos unto itself.
> And often dislike discrete poems that depend
> too much, for their understanding/affect, on other
> poems in the collection. Unless, of course,
>  the poems are clearly part of a series or suite
> of poems and published in such a way that
> their interrelationship is made clear...like within
> a section of the book.
> Finnegan
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com  Wed Oct 17 11:04:47 2001
From: david.bircumshaw at ntlworld.com (david.bircumshaw)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 16:04:47 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Chide's Alphabet Issue #2
Message-ID: <000f01c1571d$6268fbc0$8bf4a8c0@netserver>

which above is now ready to leave the yards, if not yet fully fitted, and is
available for the eyes of the curious or casual perusal via the link at my
new Home Page addressable either through:

www.paintstuff.20m.com/index.htm

or

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/index.htm


Issue #2 includes poetry by Andrew Duncan, Jill Jones, John Anderson,
Patrick Herron, Tim Allen, Robert Hampson, Ian Davidson, Mark Weiss, Harriet
Zinnes, Dominic Fox, Brian Fewster, Kent Johnson and Richard Dillon, several
of whose sets are of a sizeable proportion, and too outbreaks of creative
prose from Alison Croggon, Robin Hamilton and David Bircumshaw (including a
secreted poem from Ms Croggon) while other delights include doubtful
photographs and hints of reviews to come.

The non-existent profits from this free of charge creative fest are destined
for the fund for the relief of its editor's eyestrain.

Which editor is particularly proud to present a retrospective of the late
John Anderson's work.


Phew!

Best

Dave




David Bircumshaw

Leicester, England

A Chide's Alphabet
www.chidesplay.8m.com

Painting Without Numbers
www.paintstuff.20m.com/default.htm
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.bircumshaw/default.htm



From spacks at snowcrest.net  Wed Oct 17 14:34:26 2001
From: spacks at snowcrest.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 11:34:26 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Naming the war
In-Reply-To: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEIHEDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011017113426.007cdbb0@silcom.com>

At 10:26 AM 10/17/01 -0400, Hal wrote:
>What I'm wondering is how the august assemblage
>of poets on this list would handle the task.

Operation Cozy-Corners

Infinite Chaos

Bombing the Dust

Killing People and Stuff 

General Mayhem

Good Fellows

Got-Cha!


From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Oct 18 08:42:59 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:42:59 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Edward Mendelson on "September 1, 1939"
Message-ID: <5f.1c69238b.29002853@aol.com>

Subj:    Edward Mendelson on "September 1, 1939"
Date:   10/16/01 1:33:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time
From:   MatererT at missouri.edu (Timothy Materer)
Sender: owner-MODERN_POETS-L at lists.missouri.edu
Reply-to:   MODERN_POETS-L at lists.missouri.edu
To: MODERN_POETS-L at lists.missouri.edu

The following is from The Chronicle, October 19, 2001
http://www.chronicle.com/weekly/v48/i08/08a01202.htm
Amid Wreckage and Death, A Poem Gains New Life
By SCOTT McLEMEE

It was uncanny. After the terrorist attacks on September 11, a poem by W.H.
Auden circulated widely by e-mail. With its references to skyscrapers,
dazed citizens, and the approach of
war, "September 1, 1939" seemed less a poem than a news bulletin. Edward
Mendelson, a professor of English and comparative literature at Columbia
University, who has edited
several volumes of Auden's works, discussed the poem with The Chronicle.

Q. Why did a poem written following the Nazi invasion of Poland suddenly
feel so appropriate in the aftermath of September 11?

A. Not because it offers some Nostradamus-like prophecy of the later event,
anyway! Everyone experiences great disasters uniquely, rather than through
philosophical or moral
abstractions. Auden is not giving you vague observations on disasters in
general. Precisely because his poem is a complex, disturbed reaction to a
major historical event, it helps makes
sense of our own experience. The emotional impact comes from the personal
details -- the poet sitting in the bar "uncertain and afraid," the sudden
intrusion of death into the autumn
night.

Q. What did the disaster Auden responded to have in common with the one we
experienced?

A. There is a shock of fear at the transformation of the world. Life seemed
to be moving on a particular course, then suddenly it changed directions.
Auden is writing about the end of
confidence in progress -- the belief that progress will be not just
possible but easy to achieve. He faces the discovery that all the
rationality in the world couldn't prevent this evil. In our
case, Francis Fukayama had told us that history had come to an end, that
everyone would ultimately come to accept the West as a fount of values. And
September 11 pretty clearly
demonstrated that they hadn't.

Q. In later years, the author disavowed the poem, often with great passion.
Why did Auden come to loathe "Sept. 1, 1939"?

A. Towards the end of the poem, he starts asking "Who can reach the deaf, /
Who can speak for the dumb?" Then in the next stanza he says, "All I have
is a voice / To undo the folded
lie." The implication is, "Here I am, the poet, telling you the way things
are, speaking some shining truth." Later on, Auden had the sense that this
was pure self-congratulation. He grew
to despise the poem's claim that he and his friends were "ironic points of
light" who could show the world the way.

Q. But many readers feel that Auden really does show them the way --
especially with that often-repeated line, "We must love one another or die."

A. That's a paraphrase of a biblical text: "He that loveth not his brother
abideth in death." But in the context of the poem, Auden is saying that
love is a biological need. If you don't love,
you will wither and die. It's a whole-wheat sentiment. Auden found the idea
repugnant later, when he came to see love as a moral problem, a matter of
personal decision and commitment
rather than something predetermined and necessary. It's very resonant to
say "We must love one another," but not so easy to do.

Q. You have edited and written about Auden for many years. What do you
think of "September 1, 1939"?

A. I read the poem and feel very moved by it. Yet in the back of my mind, I
hear his voice pointing out what's wrong with it. As his literary executor,
I once asked him about the poem.
All he said was, "I don't want it to be reprinted in my lifetime." He
didn't say he wanted "Sept. 1, 1939" to be completely unavailable, and I
reprinted it in the Selected Poems. But he
didn't want to profit from it. In an interview, he once said, "It may be a
good poem, but I shouldn't have written it."

Q. Be that as it may, I'm glad he did. "Defenceless under the night / Our
world in stupor lies" -- those lines told you exactly what you were feeling.

A. Well, you know what Auden said in the poem "In Memory of W.B. Yeats,"
written a few months earlier: "The words of a dead man are modified in the
guts of the living."
SEPTEMBER 1, 1939
W.H. Auden

I sit in one of the dives
On Fifty-second Street
Uncertain and afraid
As the clever hopes expire
Of a low dishonest decade:
Waves of anger and fear
Circulate over the bright
And darkened lands of the earth,
Obsessing our private lives;
The unmentionable odour of death
Offends the September night.

Accurate scholarship can
Unearth the whole offence
>From Luther until now
That has driven a culture mad,
Find what occurred at Linz,
What huge imago made
A psychopathic god:
I and the public know
What all schoolchildren learn,
Those to whom evil is done
Do evil in return.

Exiled Thucydides knew
All that a speech can say
About Democracy,
And what dictators do,
The elderly rubbish they talk
To an apathetic grave;
Analysed all in his book,
The enlightenment driven away,
The habit-forming pain,
Mismanagement and grief:
We must suffer them all again.

Into this neutral air
Where blind skyscrapers use
Their full height to proclaim
The strength of Collective Man,
Each language pours its vain
Competitive excuse:
But who can live for long
In an euphoric dream;
Out of the mirror they stare,
Imperialism's face
And the international wrong.

Faces along the bar
Cling to their average day:
The lights must never go out,
The music must always play,
All the conventions conspire
To make this fort assume
The furniture of home;
Lest we should see where we are,
Lost in a haunted wood,
Children afraid of the night
Who have never been happy or good.

The windiest militant trash
Important Persons shout
Is not so crude as our wish:
What mad Nijinsky wrote
About Diaghilev
Is true of the normal heart;
For the error bred in the bone
Of each woman and each man
Craves what it cannot have,
Not universal love
But to be loved alone.

>From the conservative dark
Into the ethical life
The dense commuters come,
Repeating their morning vow;
'I will be true to the wife,
I'll concentrate more on my work,'
And helpless governors wake
To resume their compulsory game:
Who can release them now,
Who can reach the dead,
Who can speak for the dumb?
All I have is a voice
To undo the folded lie,
The romantic lie in the brain
Of the sensual man-in-the-street
And the lie of Authority
Whose buildings grope the sky:
There is no such thing as the State
And no one exists alone;
Hunger allows no choice
To the citizen or the police;
We must love one another or die.

Defenseless under the night
Our world in stupor lies;
Yet, dotted everywhere,
Ironic points of light
Flash out wherever the Just
Exchange their messages:
May I, composed like them
Of Eros and of dust,
Beleaguered by the same
Negation and despair,
Show an affirming flame.

>From Selected Poems by W.H. Auden, edited by Edward Mendelson. Copyright ?
1939 by W.H. Auden. Posted with permission of Curtis Brown, Ltd.
-- 


From Henry_Gould at brown.edu  Thu Oct 18 08:47:29 2001
From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 08:47:29 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Naming the war
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20011017113426.007cdbb0@silcom.com>
References: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEIHEDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011018084554.00a9e8d0@postoffice.brown.edu>

How about a name for what we're doing?

Operation Parlor-Game Deep Burbling Chit-Chat Would-Be Poets Misalliance


********************************************************
HG afloat:  www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html
www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark
    "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam




From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Oct 18 09:13:48 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:13:48 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Minor Poets
Message-ID: <94.1b8cada2.29002f8c@aol.com>

In a message dated 10/15/01 9:45:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
kellogg at duke.edu writes:
<< calls Callins a good "minor" poet, and that 
 seems to me both right and generous.  Hey, I'd love that designation.  
  >>
This snip from David Kellog's post reminded me of quote 
collected by Greg Kuzma in his miscellany What Poetry Is 
All About:

"Consider the second-rate poets--the Surreys and Shelleys,
the Patchens and Pounds--and tremble." --Jerome Judson

Of course, that's pretty good company, and more than a little
bit arguable as to whether they're 'second-rate.' I guess it's 
a matter of how high one sets the bar. Judson's bar must be
set at an altitude which is level to a ledge on Parnassus where 
the oxygen is quite thin, and the summit within in sight. 
Of course, as others have said in the context of the Gilbert 
v. Collins dialog...it's more a matter of on what kind of ground 
(bias/sensibility/predeliction) you set the stanchions for your bar.

Then in the same book there was this lovely quote by one of
the above second-tier (shall we say....sounds better) poets:

"No one can read Hardy's poems but that his own life, and
forgotten moments of it, will come back to him, a flash here
and an hour there. Have you a better test of true poetry?"
--Ezra Pound

No, I don't.
Finnegan


From Henry_Gould at brown.edu  Thu Oct 18 09:25:37 2001
From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:25:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Edward Mendelson on "September 1, 1939"
In-Reply-To: <5f.1c69238b.29002853@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011018091731.00a9f1b0@postoffice.brown.edu>

That's a very interesting interview.  I wonder if Auden felt there was a 
basic contradiction in the poem's
argument.  He says "we must love one another or die", and he hopes to "show 
an affirming flame", but
the image of mankind he provides - deluded, hypocritical - seems to belie 
both possibilities.
The poem has a prophetic quality in more than one sense, not only by 
foretelling the mood of
September 2001, but by scourging almost without mercy the general human 
failings.   It certainly
is a powerful poem, even a great one - but I think I can understand 
somewhat his later qualms.

Henry


>The following is from The Chronicle, October 19, 2001
>http://www.chronicle.com/weekly/v48/i08/08a01202.htm
>Amid Wreckage and Death, A Poem Gains New Life
>By SCOTT McLEMEE
>
>It was uncanny. After the terrorist attacks on September 11, a poem by W.H.
>Auden circulated widely by e-mail. With its references to skyscrapers,
>dazed citizens, and the approach of
>war, "September 1, 1939" seemed less a poem than a news bulletin. Edward
>Mendelson, a professor of English and comparative literature at Columbia
>University, who has edited
>several volumes of Auden's works, discussed the poem with The Chronicle.
>
>Q. Why did a poem written following the Nazi invasion of Poland suddenly
>feel so appropriate in the aftermath of September 11?
>
>A. Not because it offers some Nostradamus-like prophecy of the later event,
>anyway! Everyone experiences great disasters uniquely, rather than through
>philosophical or moral
>abstractions. Auden is not giving you vague observations on disasters in
>general. Precisely because his poem is a complex, disturbed reaction to a
>major historical event, it helps makes
>sense of our own experience. The emotional impact comes from the personal
>details -- the poet sitting in the bar "uncertain and afraid," the sudden
>intrusion of death into the autumn
>night.
>
>Q. What did the disaster Auden responded to have in common with the one we
>experienced?
>
>A. There is a shock of fear at the transformation of the world. Life seemed
>to be moving on a particular course, then suddenly it changed directions.
>Auden is writing about the end of
>confidence in progress -- the belief that progress will be not just
>possible but easy to achieve. He faces the discovery that all the
>rationality in the world couldn't prevent this evil. In our
>case, Francis Fukayama had told us that history had come to an end, that
>everyone would ultimately come to accept the West as a fount of values. And
>September 11 pretty clearly
>demonstrated that they hadn't.
>
>Q. In later years, the author disavowed the poem, often with great passion.
>Why did Auden come to loathe "Sept. 1, 1939"?
>
>A. Towards the end of the poem, he starts asking "Who can reach the deaf, /
>Who can speak for the dumb?" Then in the next stanza he says, "All I have
>is a voice / To undo the folded
>lie." The implication is, "Here I am, the poet, telling you the way things
>are, speaking some shining truth." Later on, Auden had the sense that this
>was pure self-congratulation. He grew
>to despise the poem's claim that he and his friends were "ironic points of
>light" who could show the world the way.
>
>Q. But many readers feel that Auden really does show them the way --
>especially with that often-repeated line, "We must love one another or die."
>
>A. That's a paraphrase of a biblical text: "He that loveth not his brother
>abideth in death." But in the context of the poem, Auden is saying that
>love is a biological need. If you don't love,
>you will wither and die. It's a whole-wheat sentiment. Auden found the idea
>repugnant later, when he came to see love as a moral problem, a matter of
>personal decision and commitment
>rather than something predetermined and necessary. It's very resonant to
>say "We must love one another," but not so easy to do.
>
>Q. You have edited and written about Auden for many years. What do you
>think of "September 1, 1939"?
>
>A. I read the poem and feel very moved by it. Yet in the back of my mind, I
>hear his voice pointing out what's wrong with it. As his literary executor,
>I once asked him about the poem.
>All he said was, "I don't want it to be reprinted in my lifetime." He
>didn't say he wanted "Sept. 1, 1939" to be completely unavailable, and I
>reprinted it in the Selected Poems. But he
>didn't want to profit from it. In an interview, he once said, "It may be a
>good poem, but I shouldn't have written it."
>
>Q. Be that as it may, I'm glad he did. "Defenceless under the night / Our
>world in stupor lies" -- those lines told you exactly what you were feeling.
>
>A. Well, you know what Auden said in the poem "In Memory of W.B. Yeats,"
>written a few months earlier: "The words of a dead man are modified in the
>guts of the living."
>SEPTEMBER 1, 1939
>W.H. Auden
>
>I sit in one of the dives
>On Fifty-second Street
>Uncertain and afraid
>As the clever hopes expire
>Of a low dishonest decade:
>Waves of anger and fear
>Circulate over the bright
>And darkened lands of the earth,
>Obsessing our private lives;
>The unmentionable odour of death
>Offends the September night.
>
>Accurate scholarship can
>Unearth the whole offence
> >From Luther until now
>That has driven a culture mad,
>Find what occurred at Linz,
>What huge imago made
>A psychopathic god:
>I and the public know
>What all schoolchildren learn,
>Those to whom evil is done
>Do evil in return.
>
>Exiled Thucydides knew
>All that a speech can say
>About Democracy,
>And what dictators do,
>The elderly rubbish they talk
>To an apathetic grave;
>Analysed all in his book,
>The enlightenment driven away,
>The habit-forming pain,
>Mismanagement and grief:
>We must suffer them all again.
>
>Into this neutral air
>Where blind skyscrapers use
>Their full height to proclaim
>The strength of Collective Man,
>Each language pours its vain
>Competitive excuse:
>But who can live for long
>In an euphoric dream;
>Out of the mirror they stare,
>Imperialism's face
>And the international wrong.
>
>Faces along the bar
>Cling to their average day:
>The lights must never go out,
>The music must always play,
>All the conventions conspire
>To make this fort assume
>The furniture of home;
>Lest we should see where we are,
>Lost in a haunted wood,
>Children afraid of the night
>Who have never been happy or good.
>
>The windiest militant trash
>Important Persons shout
>Is not so crude as our wish:
>What mad Nijinsky wrote
>About Diaghilev
>Is true of the normal heart;
>For the error bred in the bone
>Of each woman and each man
>Craves what it cannot have,
>Not universal love
>But to be loved alone.
>
> >From the conservative dark
>Into the ethical life
>The dense commuters come,
>Repeating their morning vow;
>'I will be true to the wife,
>I'll concentrate more on my work,'
>And helpless governors wake
>To resume their compulsory game:
>Who can release them now,
>Who can reach the dead,
>Who can speak for the dumb?
>All I have is a voice
>To undo the folded lie,
>The romantic lie in the brain
>Of the sensual man-in-the-street
>And the lie of Authority
>Whose buildings grope the sky:
>There is no such thing as the State
>And no one exists alone;
>Hunger allows no choice
>To the citizen or the police;
>We must love one another or die.
>
>Defenseless under the night
>Our world in stupor lies;
>Yet, dotted everywhere,
>Ironic points of light
>Flash out wherever the Just
>Exchange their messages:
>May I, composed like them
>Of Eros and of dust,
>Beleaguered by the same
>Negation and despair,
>Show an affirming flame.
>
> >From Selected Poems by W.H. Auden, edited by Edward Mendelson. Copyright ?
>1939 by W.H. Auden. Posted with permission of Curtis Brown, Ltd.
>--
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
********************************************************
HG afloat:  www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html
www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark
    "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam




From bardo at optonline.net  Thu Oct 18 10:18:25 2001
From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:18:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Minor Poets
References: <94.1b8cada2.29002f8c@aol.com>
Message-ID: <006501c157df$c0b69800$7692be18@DanielZimmerman>

Not Jerome Judson. Judson Jerome.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: <JforJames at aol.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 9:13 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Minor Poets


> In a message dated 10/15/01 9:45:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> kellogg at duke.edu writes:
> << calls Callins a good "minor" poet, and that 
>  seems to me both right and generous.  Hey, I'd love that designation.  
>   >>
> This snip from David Kellog's post reminded me of quote 
> collected by Greg Kuzma in his miscellany What Poetry Is 
> All About:
> 
> "Consider the second-rate poets--the Surreys and Shelleys,
> the Patchens and Pounds--and tremble." --Jerome Judson
> 
> Of course, that's pretty good company, and more than a little
> bit arguable as to whether they're 'second-rate.' I guess it's 
> a matter of how high one sets the bar. Judson's bar must be
> set at an altitude which is level to a ledge on Parnassus where 
> the oxygen is quite thin, and the summit within in sight. 
> Of course, as others have said in the context of the Gilbert 
> v. Collins dialog...it's more a matter of on what kind of ground 
> (bias/sensibility/predeliction) you set the stanchions for your bar.
> 
> Then in the same book there was this lovely quote by one of
> the above second-tier (shall we say....sounds better) poets:
> 
> "No one can read Hardy's poems but that his own life, and
> forgotten moments of it, will come back to him, a flash here
> and an hour there. Have you a better test of true poetry?"
> --Ezra Pound
> 
> No, I don't.
> Finnegan
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From Henry_Gould at brown.edu  Thu Oct 18 10:21:32 2001
From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 10:21:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Edward Mendelson on "September 1, 1939"
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011018091731.00a9f1b0@postoffice.brown.edu>
References: <5f.1c69238b.29002853@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011018101334.00aa8100@postoffice.brown.edu>

And on a note of pure speculation. . . I wonder if Auden's attitude partly 
stems from the fact
that this heavy poem by an English native makes its address from the 
relative safety of New York,
just as the Blitz was about to begin.  I would think that the English 
context of his writing was
always with him.

Henry

At 09:25 AM 10/18/01 -0400, you wrote:
>That's a very interesting interview.  I wonder if Auden felt there was a 
>basic contradiction in the poem's
>argument.  He says "we must love one another or die", and he hopes to 
>"show an affirming flame", but
>the image of mankind he provides - deluded, hypocritical - seems to belie 
>both possibilities.
>The poem has a prophetic quality in more than one sense, not only by 
>foretelling the mood of
>September 2001, but by scourging almost without mercy the general human 
>failings.   It certainly
>is a powerful poem, even a great one - but I think I can understand 
>somewhat his later qualms.
>
>Henry
>
********************************************************
HG afloat:  www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html
www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark
    "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam




From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Thu Oct 18 12:04:05 2001
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 11:04:05 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Minor Poets
Message-ID: <200110181605.f9IG5Xh85014@mx2.mx.voyager.net>

I wish I could remember the details, but I have a foggy memory of James
Wright being asked once, in an interview, about why he was so fond of some
poet usually considered minor--Waller or Herrick? --and his even-keeled
response was something like "I'm just lucky, I guess."  

That's pretty much how I feel about Billy Collins.  I don't understand just
why his work makes so many smart people sputter and fume.  But I'm just
lucky, I guess.

I can no longer encounter the phrase "minor poet" without remembering the
following tiny essay by Robert Francis, who suffered from that reductive
label his whole writing life.  Of course, it was his particular fate to live
in the shadows of both Emily Dickinson and that other Robert, thus consigned
to being not the best or even the second-best poet to write in Amherst,
Massachusetts.  

Francis's best poems are perpetually in need of rediscovery, I think.  As
are his astringent "pot shots at poetry," collected in the U Michigan book
of that title.

I'll quote one relevant essay in its entirety:

__________________________________

Either Or


 ''After talking with Uncle Charles the other night about the worthies of
this country, Webster and the rest, as usual, considering who were geniuses
and who not, I showed him up to bed," says Thoreau in his Journal for
January 1, 1853, "and when I had got into bed myself, I heard his chamber
door opened after eleven o'clock,  and he called out, in an earnest,
stentorian voice, loud enough to wake the whole house, 'Henry! was John
Quincy Adams a genius?' 'No, I think not,' was my reply. 'Well, I didn't
think he was,' answered he."

 Whether Henry and Uncle Charles agreed on any other worthies, there was
something they seem to have agreed  on implicitly and that was that a man is
either a genius or not a genius.   

 Isn't this a little odd in a man who measured accurately the varying depth
of Walden Pond and the varying thickness of Walden ice? Did it never enter
his immensely capable head that genius, though it cannot be measured like
ice and water, is nevertheless something that varies in amount, like water
and ice, from spot to spot and individual to individual? That while most
people have none to speak of and a few have it in abundance, some people
have genius in small amounts? Did it never occur to him that John Quincy
Adams was a great man with possibly a small amount of genius? Less than
Daniel Webster but more than John Doe down the road? 

 Another night Henry and Uncle Charles may have discussed the poets, who
were major and who minor, putting all the poets into their respective
hemispheres separated by a line as inexorable and as imaginary as the
equator.    

--Robert Francis.  fr. *Pot Shots at Poetry*.  U Michigan, 1980:  4.
_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________

----------
>From: JforJames at aol.com
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Minor Poets
>Date: Thu, Oct 18, 2001, 8:13 AM
>

>In a message dated 10/15/01 9:45:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
>kellogg at duke.edu writes:
><< calls Callins a good "minor" poet, and that 
> seems to me both right and generous.  Hey, I'd love that designation.  
>  >>
>This snip from David Kellog's post reminded me of quote 
>collected by Greg Kuzma in his miscellany What Poetry Is 
>All About:
>
>"Consider the second-rate poets--the Surreys and Shelleys,
>the Patchens and Pounds--and tremble." --Jerome Judson
>
>Of course, that's pretty good company, and more than a little
>bit arguable as to whether they're 'second-rate.' I guess it's 
>a matter of how high one sets the bar. Judson's bar must be
>set at an altitude which is level to a ledge on Parnassus where 
>the oxygen is quite thin, and the summit within in sight. 
>Of course, as others have said in the context of the Gilbert 
>v. Collins dialog...it's more a matter of on what kind of ground 
>(bias/sensibility/predeliction) you set the stanchions for your bar.
>
>Then in the same book there was this lovely quote by one of
>the above second-tier (shall we say....sounds better) poets:
>
>"No one can read Hardy's poems but that his own life, and
>forgotten moments of it, will come back to him, a flash here
>and an hour there. Have you a better test of true poetry?"
>--Ezra Pound
>
>No, I don't.
>Finnegan


From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Thu Oct 18 12:25:03 2001
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 11:25:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Naming the war
Message-ID: <200110181620.f9IGKnL57692@mx10.mx.voyager.net>

A college prof of mine once remarked, during  Vietnam, that "unless
*someone* fiddles while Rome burns, Rome isn't worth saving."  As I recall
it was an Auden poem, ironically enough, that sponsored that reflection. 
Not "September 1, 1939," needless to say, but something more like
"Thanksgiving for a Habitat," probably.

Not a creed I'd care to be limited to, but he had a point, didn't he?  Yeah,
we're burbling and fiddling here, sometimes.   Other times, not.  We're
blowing off steam and talking shop, as craftspeople will, not to mention
occasionally waxing sanctimonious.  

And what we're "doing" is perhaps not limited to our postings to an
electronic discussion list.  

David Graham

_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________

----------
>From: Henry Gould <Henry_Gould at brown.edu>
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Naming the war
>Date: Thu, Oct 18, 2001, 7:47 AM
>

>How about a name for what we're doing?
>
>Operation Parlor-Game Deep Burbling Chit-Chat Would-Be Poets Misalliance
>
>


From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Oct 18 12:36:30 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:36:30 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Oates Loyal to Nebraska Magazine
Message-ID: <147.33777e1.29005f0e@aol.com>

Monday October 15 7:05 AM ET 
Oates Loyal to Nebraska Magazine

LINCOLN, Neb. (AP) - National Book Award-winner Joyce Carol Oates has not 
forgotten one of the first places that published her work. 

She still sends short stories into the Prairie Schooner, a literary magazine 
at the University of Nebraska at Lincoln. And she spoke Saturday at the 
magazine's 75th anniversary celebration. 

She told about 500 people at the Cornhusker Hotel that she loves to write, 
and does it while she is running, on sheets of paper when she is flying and 
in the backs of limousines when she is riding in style. 

The author of ``Blonde: A Novel,'' as well as other novels, short stories and 
poems, Oates said her poetry is prose-like and she works longer at writing 
than many poets do. 

``Prose writers - we're working all the time,'' she said. ``We're the 
long-distance truckers of America.'' 


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Thu Oct 18 13:11:21 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:11:21 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lecture
Message-ID: <f4.10ef1b7e.29006739@cs.com>

I have some extra printed copies of a lecture I just gave here called "The 
Voices of the Poet."  If anyone would like to have one, send me a large SASE:

Sam Gwynn
Box 10023
Beaumont, TX 77710
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From Henry_Gould at brown.edu  Thu Oct 18 14:02:13 2001
From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould)
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 14:02:13 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:  Naming the war
In-Reply-To: <200110181620.f9IGKnL57692@mx10.mx.voyager.net>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011018135423.00a969c0@postoffice.brown.edu>

I was referring specifically to what we were "doing" on this particular 
thread.  Obviously we're
also "doing" many other things.  Sure, there's a use for fiddling at most 
times & occasions.
I have a problem with self-righteous fiddling, however - sounds a little 
whiny-scratchy.
That's why I liked Jordan's contribution best - Operation Lyrical 
Ballads.  Sounds
like a name Capt. Beefheart might come up with.

Henry McMcAdam

At 11:25 AM 10/18/01 -0500, you wrote:

>A college prof of mine once remarked, during  Vietnam, that "unless
>*someone* fiddles while Rome burns, Rome isn't worth saving."  As I recall
>it was an Auden poem, ironically enough, that sponsored that reflection.
>Not "September 1, 1939," needless to say, but something more like
>"Thanksgiving for a Habitat," probably.
>
>Not a creed I'd care to be limited to, but he had a point, didn't he?  Yeah,
>we're burbling and fiddling here, sometimes.   Other times, not.  We're
>blowing off steam and talking shop, as craftspeople will, not to mention
>occasionally waxing sanctimonious.
>
>And what we're "doing" is perhaps not limited to our postings to an
>electronic discussion list.
>
>David Graham
>
>_______________________
>David Graham
>grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
>_______________________
>
>----------
> >From: Henry Gould <Henry_Gould at brown.edu>
> >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Naming the war
> >Date: Thu, Oct 18, 2001, 7:47 AM
> >
>
> >How about a name for what we're doing?
> >
> >Operation Parlor-Game Deep Burbling Chit-Chat Would-Be Poets Misalliance
> >
> >
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
********************************************************
HG afloat:  www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html
www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark
    "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam




From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Oct 19 09:54:37 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 09:54:37 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Tomas Transtromer (Robt. Bly translator) poems
Message-ID: <45.d8e556c.29018a9d@aol.com>

Sender: everse-owner at worldashome.org
To: everse at worldashome.org

Storm


The man on a walk suddenly meets the old 
giant oak like an elk turned to stone with 
its enormous antlers against the dark green castle wall
of the fall ocean. 

Storm from the north. It's nearly time for the 
rowanberries to ripen. Awake in the night he
hears the constellations far above the oak
stamping in their stalls. 


The Half-Finished Heaven


Cowardice breaks off on its path. 
Anguish breaks off on its path. 
The vulture breaks off in its flight. 

The eager light runs into the open, 
even the ghosts take a drink. 

And our paintings see the air, 
red beasts of the ice-age studios. 

Everything starts to look around. 
We go out in the sun by hundreds. 

Every person is a half-open door
leading to a room for everyone. 

The endless field under us. 

Water glitters between the trees. 

The lake is a window into the earth. 

       Tomas Transtr?mer

---------------------------------
copyright (c) Tomas Transtromer. From "The Half-Finished Heaven," by Tomas 
Transtr?mer, edited, translated, and introduced by Robert Bly, and published 
by Graywolf Press (http://www.graywolfpress.org). 


From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu  Fri Oct 19 10:54:13 2001
From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 09:54:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Transtromer poems
Message-ID: <200110191453.f9JErwS59911@mx5.mx.voyager.net>

A new Transtromer book is always welcome news.  I wonder if this book
contains any new or newly translated poems, or simply consists of Bly's
earlier translations repackaged.  Does anyone know?

In any case, two good Transtromers deserve another:

Allegro


After a black day, I play Haydn,
and feel a little warmth in my hands.

The keys are ready.  Kind hammers fall.
The sound is spirited, green, and full of silence.

The sound says that freedom exists
and someone pays no taxes to Caesar.

I shove my hands in my haydnpockets
and act like a man who is calm about it all.

I raise my haydnflag.  The signal is:
"We do not surrender.  But want peace."

The music is a house of glass standing on a slope;
rocks are flying, rocks are rolling.

The rocks roll straight through the house
but every pane of glass is still whole.


     --Tomas Transtr?mer, trans. Robert Bly

_______________________
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
_______________________

----------
>From: JforJames at aol.com
>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Tomas Transtromer (Robt. Bly translator) poems
>Date: Fri, Oct 19, 2001, 8:54 AM
>

>Sender: everse-owner at worldashome.org
>To: everse at worldashome.org
>
>Storm
>
>
>The man on a walk suddenly meets the old 
>giant oak like an elk turned to stone with 
>its enormous antlers against the dark green castle wall
>of the fall ocean. 
>
>Storm from the north. It's nearly time for the 
>rowanberries to ripen. Awake in the night he
>hears the constellations far above the oak
>stamping in their stalls. 
>
>
>The Half-Finished Heaven
>
>
>Cowardice breaks off on its path. 
>Anguish breaks off on its path. 
>The vulture breaks off in its flight. 
>
>The eager light runs into the open, 
>even the ghosts take a drink. 
>
>And our paintings see the air, 
>red beasts of the ice-age studios. 
>
>Everything starts to look around. 
>We go out in the sun by hundreds. 
>
>Every person is a half-open door
>leading to a room for everyone. 
>
>The endless field under us. 
>
>Water glitters between the trees. 
>
>The lake is a window into the earth. 
>
>       Tomas Transtr?mer
>
>---------------------------------
>copyright (c) Tomas Transtromer. From "The Half-Finished Heaven," by Tomas 
>Transtr?mer, edited, translated, and introduced by Robert Bly, and published 
>by Graywolf Press (http://www.graywolfpress.org). 
>_______________________________________________



From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Oct 19 20:24:46 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 20:24:46 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] A poet's poet
Message-ID: <f6.10fb9e54.29021e4e@aol.com>

A poet's poet 
Hayden Carruth will be honored by the Poetry Society of America in New York 
this week

By TIMOTHY CAHILL, Staff writer 
First published: Sunday, October 14, 2001 

Hayden Carruth moved toward his sagging armchair beside a high shelf of books 
as the October sun filtered through the window and played on the colored 
trees outside. All around the gray-bearded poet, autumn's beauty and doom 
swirled and radiated. 

Outdoors, the wind was from the north, with snow predicted by morning. Winter 
was moving in, and for Carruth this meant not just the season of the year but 
the cold time of old age. Wracked by emphysema and the lingering effects of a 
heart attack two summers ago, he settled heavily into his seat.

"Old age is an aggravation,'' I said ironically.

"You could say that,'' he replied, laughing ruefully and with some disdain at 
the enormity of the understatement.

"I'm sickly and old and altogether somewhere else,'' writes Carruth in the 
first poem of "Dr. Jazz'' (Copper Canyon, $20), his book of verse published 
last month. The collection, the 24th volume of poetry by the 80-year-old 
writer, is a rumination on age and death, but in a voice that is neither 
depressed or depressing. Carruth's writing has long been graced with a 
penetrating lyric style, meditative and intimate. The new poems brim with 
dignity, beauty and an often self-deprecating sense of humor.

Poetic power: Were you to pass him in the grocery store, you might never 
suspect that this slightly haggard-looking old man contained so much poetic 
power. Carruth is a writer for whom poetry is an outgrowth of life, not a 
substitute for it. In its review of his 1991 book "Selected Shorter Poems 
1946-1991,'' the journal Booklist compared him to Chaucer, Tolstoy and Walt 
Whitman. "Carruth ... is large -- he contains multitudes. Dip into his work 
anywhere and there is life -- and death -- ... stirringly felt and 
cogitated.''

The reference was to Whitman's poem, "Song of Myself,'' which asked and 
answered the poetic question, "Do I contradict myself? Very well then I 
contradict myself. (I am large, I contain multitudes.)''

Although their lives and their work are very different, Carruth is a kindred 
spirit to Whitman. Like the great 19th-century bard, Carruth's recurring 
subjects are work, love, sex, music, death and the natural world. He sings of 
himself in his poems, not as an aggrandized ego but as a soul bound to other 
souls by nature and society.

Raising a family: Carruth has lived in Connecticut, Chicago, New York City 
and now in Munnsville, outside Oneida, where he moved in 1989 to teach in 
Syracuse University's writing program. But he is at bottom a Vermont poet, 
having lived for nearly 30 years in the remote northern part of the state. 
Comparing the wan yellows and reds of central New York to the golds, crimsons 
and oranges of a New England autumn, he was moved to admit, "I've always felt 
in exile here.''


From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Oct 19 20:34:52 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2001 20:34:52 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Ralph Angel poems
Message-ID: <be.1c67cedb.290220ac@aol.com>

Exerpt from the book Twice Removed

And More


I open my eyes again. So be it,
good. Don't leave. The dark slides into slippers
easily. The quiet finds a robe. The room
rises and is falling with your
breathing. As if
I'd never seen you sleeping,
in this house and warmth,
at this hour, this bed
I can't quite
put my finger on
and like.



Kapparah


But to make this ugly
we'd have to undo even the hours
of this room.
And many years earlier
the unsaid
will flop like a fish
and in the morning step out
on the balcony.
All the way
to nothing drifting.
A view much like our own.
A plan.

We'd have to
think desire could be practiced
and fail and
study constantly
and know by heart
the volumes of our mingled
vast migrations
and the trampled starts
of things.
We were holy places there.
And we would keep
repeating that.


from Sarabande Books...
Twice Removed
By Ralph Angel
ISBN:  1-889330-57-4 (cloth) 
 1-889330-58-2 (paper) 
Price:  $20.95 (cloth) 
 $12.95 (paper) 
Pages: 71 
Trim   6 x 9 
Publication date: 10/2001 


From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Sat Oct 20 03:41:03 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 03:41:03 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] A poet's poet
Message-ID: <4c.677c2d.2902848f@cs.com>

For those who haven't seen Carruth read, I recommend the tape of his reading 
from the Lannan Foundation poetry video series. It is in many libraries.
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From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Oct 22 10:08:26 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:08:26 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rose window is a rose window is a rose window...
Message-ID: <6d.1c30e107.2905825a@aol.com>

Gertrude Stein is being inducted into 
The Poet's Corner
The Cathedral Church of St. John the Divine
1047 Amsterdam Ave. at 112th St., NYC
Oct. 28th Vespers, 6pm


From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu  Mon Oct 22 11:33:22 2001
From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (Michael Magee)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 11:33:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Magee's Morning Constitutional at SPD
Message-ID: <200110221533.LAA29188@dept.english.upenn.edu>

> Hi all, 
> 
> Thought I'd let you know that my new book, _Morning Constitutional_ is now
> availble through Small Press Distribution (www.spdbooks.org) - they have a
> photo of the cover etc.  I've reposted the Handwritten Press Announcement
> below.
> 
> -Mike.
> 
> *********
> 
> New from HANDWRITTEN PRESS
> 
> MORNING CONSTITUTIONAL, by Michael Magee
> 
> Place -- under arrest, outside the Ben Franklin House, a bit of declarative
> rhetoric echoing past the old psych ward, a decaying neighborhood, jazz
> struggling, the Amerinesiac that must needs awaken and feel its limbs.
> "The untimely state's AM radio" getting played here, detuned and refracted
> through Magee's acute sense of history and hearing.  Here that?  Michael
> Magee's poetry, "buzzes with the legislative, polemical and liberatory
> static of American political history" (K. Silem Mohammed).  This buzzing
> refracts to us from the highway to the needle exchange, the monument to
> the bus stop.  Magee is one of the most well-informed American
> poet-listeners. Bob Perelman says "his poems sound out the present tense
> histories and provide democratic key signatures so different people can
> play their meanings at once.  We hear about a better place -- all the
> time, if we listen.  But getting there is not an automatic thing.  These
> poems help." Or as Heather Fuller writes, "This is not your ordinary
> peripateticism. For what Michael has tapped into is the psychotic tyranny
> of the antecedent, in which everything is thing, everyone is they, and all
> else is it, and this is how it is."
> 
> "a high fidelity
> version of me staple-gunned"
> 
> 88 pp. perfect bound, cover art by Mitchell Magee, $10.95.
> 
> 



From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Oct 22 17:28:16 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 17:28:16 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Drunken Boat
Message-ID: <9a.1b9a2ffc.2905e970@aol.com>

Date:         Thu, 18 Oct 2001 12:38:11 -0700
From:         Drunken Boat <drunkenboat2001 at YAHOO.COM>
Subject:      Drunken Boat, Fall/Winter 2001
In-Reply-To:  <F69h5puZTIvjqGDEwYA000096b6 at hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Dear Friends,

Drunken Boat's third issue is now up at:

http://www.drunkenboat.com

The journal, if you're not familiar with it, is
dedicated to bringing together the best of more
traditional forms of representation, like poetry and
prose, with works of art endemic to the medium of the
web, like hypertext, sound, video and digital
animation. We're also committed to the egalitarian
ideal of making works of art readily accessible to
wide audiences.

This third installment is a special double issue
loosely gathered around the theme of ethnopoetics
(though the utility of said term is up for debate). We
are featuring over fifty contributors constituting a
range the likes of which we believe may never have
inhabited the same space before. Contributors include
Mark Amerika, Charles Bernstein, Alice Fulton, Wes
Meyer, T'ai Freedom Ford, Heather McHugh, Timothy Liu,
David Daniels and Naomi Maruta, among many others.
Please feel free to write to us with your comments,
questions, responses, vituperations and/or accolades.
Our next reading period will begin at the end of this
year and anyone interested in submitting work should
email:   editors at drunkenboat.com

A special thanks also to all of our contributors and
supporters who have made this issue possible. Thanks
for your support.

Best,
Ravi Shankar
-------------------------------------------
editor, Drunken Boat
http://www.drunkenboat.com



From wjbat at conncoll.edu  Tue Oct 23 00:13:47 2001
From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin)
Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 00:13:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mercy
In-Reply-To: <9a.1b9a2ffc.2905e970@aol.com>
Message-ID: <20011023001347.028030@oak.cc.conncoll.edu>

with apologies for cross-posting, but this is ephemeral:


ie, _Mercy_, a new music/theater work by Meredith Monk and Ann Hamilton. 
 
If it opens anywhere near you (the only New England performance was here
at the College Saturday night, and I don't know where the tour takes it
next,) see it.  It's gorgeous, powerful, grand and precise; brought me to
tears and enthralled me through them; is almost wordless--how I envy that
right now--and completely audacious.  Keep your eye out for it and give
yourself a gift.

Wendy, with gratitude



From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 24 10:50:46 2001
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 10:50:46 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] How to Tell Poets from Other Mammals
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEAEOAEDAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

How to Tell Poets from Other Mammals

1.

Poets all have hair, rather than feathers or scales.
But when one reads that the side walls of their noses
contain a spongy erectile tissue that leads to nasal
enlargement and nostril expansion by vaso-congestion
during sexual arousal, one begins to wonder.

2.

Poets have rounded outlines. But any body relationship
they feel should be grist to their sexual mill, and because they
are an inventive species it would be natural for them to experiment
with any postures they like?the more the better, in fact,
because this will increase the complexity of the sexual act,
increase sexual novelty, and prevent sexual boredom
between the members of long-mated poet pairs.

3.

Poets have flat faces, but virtually all the sexual signals and erogenous
zones are on the front of their bodies?the facial expressions, the lips,
the beards, the nipples, the areolar signals, the breasts of the females,
the pubic hair, the genitals themselves, the major blushing areas,
and the major sexual flush zones.

4.

Poets have varied facial expressions, but these are often unseen by partners, as
the typical mating posture of poets involves the rear approach of the male
to the female. She lifts her rear end and directs it toward the male. Her genital
region is visually presented backwards to him. He sees it, moves toward her,
and mounts her from behind. There is no frontal body contact during copulation,
the male?s genital region being pressed firmly to the female?s rump region.

5.

Poets can ?manipulate? objects. They attack small objects,
shake large ones, spit and spew, and try they try to bite, scratch or
strike anything in reach. In younger poets these activities are rather
random and uncoordinated. Their crying indicates that fear
is still present. The aggression has not yet matured to the point
of a pure attack: this will come much later when the poet is sure
of itself and fully aware of its physical capacities. When it does develop,
it has its own special facial signals. These consist of a tight-lipped glare.
The lips are pursed into a hard line, with the mouth-corners
held forward rather than pulled back. The eyes stare fixedly at
the audience and the eyebrows are lowered in a frown. The fists
are clenched. The poet has begun to assert itself.

[source text: Desmond Morris, *The Naked Ape*]


Hal

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html



From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Oct 25 10:19:47 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:19:47 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcement of the 2001 Lenore Marshall Poetry Prize nominees
Message-ID: <111.756b260.29097983@aol.com>

> Subj:  Announcement of the 2001 Lenore Marshall Poetry Prize nominees
>  Date:    10/24/01 12:52:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>  From:    djmess at greeninteger.com (kiwi)
>  To:  djmess at greeninteger.com (Douglas Messerli)
>  CC:  djmess at greeninteger.com (Douglas Messerli)
>  
>  Sun & Moon Press is proud to announce that two of its poetry titles
>  from 2000 have been selected for the short list of THE ACADEMY OF
>  AMERICAN POETS 2001 Lenore Marshall Poetry Prize. The six finalists,
>  chosen from more that 200 entires, are:
>  
>  Your Name Here by John Ashbery (Farrar, Straus and Giroux)
>  Republics of Reality by Charles Bernstein (Sun & Moon Press)
>  Selected Poems by Fanny Howe (University of California Press)
>  Atmosphere Conditions by Ed Roberson (Sun & Moon Press)
>  Plasticville by David Trinidad (Turtle Point Press)
>  The Annotated "Here" and Selected Poems by Marjorie Welish (Coffee House 
> Press)
>  
>  The winner of the prize will be announced in November. The judges for this 
> year's contest
>  are Ann Lauterbach, Elaine Equi, and Bob Perelman. An essay by Ann 
> Lauterbach on
>  the prize-winning collection will appear in The Nation, along with a 
> selection of poems
>  from the book.
>  
>  The previous winners of the Lenore Marshall Prize are John Ashbery, 
Sterling 
> A. Borwn, Hayden
>  Carruth, Wanda Coleman, Cid Corman, David Ferry, Tom Gunn, Marilyn Hacker, 
> John Haines,
>  Donald Hall, Josephine Jacobsen, Mark Jarman, Stanley Kuinitz, Denise 
> Levertov, Philip Levine,
>  John Logan, Thomas McGrath, W. S. Merwin, Josephine Miles, Howard Moss, 
> Robert Pinsky,
>  Adrienne Rich, Michael Ryan, George Starbuck, Allen Tate, and Charles 
Wright.
> 
>  
>  The Leonore Marshall Poetry Prize was established in 1975 by the New Hope 
> Foundation in memory of Lenore Marshall (1897-1971), a poet, novelist, 
> essayist, and political activist. Leonore Marshall was the author of three 
> novels, three books of poetry, a collection of short stories, and 
selections 
> from her notebooks. Her work also appeared in The New Yorker, The Saturday 
> Review, Partisan Review, and other literary magazines. In 1956 she helped 
> found the National Committee for a Sane Nuclear Policy, the citizens' 
> organziation that lobbied successfully for passage of the 1963 partial 
> nuclear test ban treaty. The Leonore Marshall Poetry Prize is endowed by a 
> gift to the Academy from the New Hope Foundation, which for more than forty 
> years worked to support world peace, literature, and the arts. The Nation 
> first joined with the New Hope Foundation to present the Lenore Marshall 
> Poetry Prize in 1982.
>  
>  
>  In honor of the two nominees, we are offering a 20% discount on Republics 
of 
> 
>  Reality and Atmosphere Conditions to any member of this list or the 
Poetics 
> list.
>  
>  The Bernstein book is $14.95, which with the 20% discount and postage 
would 
> come to $13.21
>  The Roberson book is $10.95, which with the 20% discount and postage would 
> come to $10.01
>  
>  Send a check made out to Sun & Moon Press to 6026 Wilshire Blvd., Los 
> Angeles, CA 90036
>  
>  
>  


From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Oct 25 10:26:05 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:26:05 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Music of a Distant Drum
Message-ID: <21.1322c732.29097afd@aol.com>

Subject: FW: New from Princeton University Press

> Music of a Distant Drum
> Classical Arabic, Persian, Turkish, and Hebrew Poems
> Translated and Introduced by Bernard Lewis
> http://www.pup.princeton.edu/titles/7138.html
>
> Music of a Distant Drum marks a literary milestone. For the
> first time in English, poems from four leading literary
> traditions of the Middle East, representing a wide sweep of
> medieval history, appear in a single volume compiled by a
> single translator. Bernard Lewis, one of the world's
> greatest authorities on the region's culture and history,
> offers a work of startling beauty that leaves no doubt as to
> why such poets were courted by kings in their day. Like
> those in the Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam, the poems here-as
> ensured by Lewis's mastery of all the source languages and
> his impeccable style and taste-come fully alive in English.
> They are surprising and sensuous, disarmingly witty and
> frank. They provide a fascinating and unusual glimpse into
> Middle Eastern history. Above all, they are a pleasure to
> read.
>
> The 129 poems, most of which here make their English-
> language debut, represent the three major languages of
> medieval Islam-Arabic, Persian, and Turkish-with the
> remainder from Hebrew. They span more than a thousand years,
> from the seventh to the early eighteenth century, when
> poetry, like so much else, was shattered and reshaped by the
> impact of the West. They range from panegyric and satire to
> religious poetry and lyrics about wine, women, and love.
> Lewis begins with an introduction on the place of poets and
> poetry in Middle Eastern history and concludes with
> biographical notes on all the poets.
>
> This treasure trove of verse is aptly summed up by a quote
> from the ninth-century Arab author Ibn Qutayba: "Poetry is
> the mine of knowledge of the Arabs, the book of their
> wisdom, the muster roll of their history, the repository of
> their great days, the rampart protecting their heritage, the
> trench defending their glories, the truthful witness on the
> day of dispute, the final proof at the time of argument."
>
> Bernard Lewis is the Cleveland E. Dodge Professor of Near
> Eastern Studies and Professor Emeritus at Princeton
> University. He is the author of numerous books on Middle
> Eastern history, including A Middle East Mosaic: Fragments
> of Life, Letters, and History; The Middle East: A Brief
> History of the Last 2000 Years; The Multiple Identities of
> the Middle East; The Muslim Discovery of Europe; The
> Political Language of Islam; Islam and the West; The Arabs
> in History; and The Jews of Islam (Princeton).
>
>
> 0-691-08928-0 Cloth $19.95 US and L13.95
> 224 pages. 25 halftones. 5 x 8.
>


From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Oct 25 11:07:58 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 11:07:58 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Word Press Poetry Prize
Message-ID: <45.dde2d29.290984ce@aol.com>

Cincinnati, OH - 2002 Word Press Poetry Prize

From JforJames at aol.com  Thu Oct 25 16:28:11 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 16:28:11 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Pretty Grimm
Message-ID: <9d.1d43b12f.2909cfdb@aol.com>

Lots of poems come to mind based on Greek myths
and many related to the Bible, but no so many poems
come to mind that take off from tales of the Grimm Bros...

From: Jeanne M. Beaumont <jeannebeaumont at worldnet.att.net>
To: Wom-po <WOM-PO at listserv.muohio.edu>
Date: Monday, October 22, 2001 12:32 AM
Subject: Anthology


>To all womponies: I am happy to say that Claudia Carlson and I just signed
>with Story Line Press to publish our anthology The Poets' Grimm: modern
>poems from Grimm Fairy Tales. (A few of you are already included.) We are
>reading poems until end of November. We would also love to hear about poems
>by others you think we might not have seen. We currently have over 85 poets
>included, so we have the major works in the field (ie, Sexton, Jarrell,
>Broumas, Hay, etc), yet poems that have appeared only in journals may have
>been missed. Please backchannel with titles and sources. Also, Submissions
>are welcome. We are currently searching especially for poems on some of the
>lesser known Grimm tales, or for uses of Grimm landscape, characters, or
>objects in unusual metaphorical ways. We are also open to reading
>experimental work, if it is clearly taking on the Grimm tradition in some
>way. It is okay if poems have been previously published (most of the poems
>have been), but please state all relevant copyright and credit line
>information. Poems with SASE can be mailed to me at: 120 W. 70th St., 2D,
>New York, NY 10023. (deadline Nov 30) No email submissions of poems
please,
>but okay to email titles and sources of poems you want to alert us too.
>Thanks for any and all help!
>Jeanne Marie Beaumont


From thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com  Thu Oct 25 19:44:05 2001
From: thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com (bob cooper)
Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 23:44:05 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Discovery & Muslims who's Poets
Message-ID: <F145UdhfhdOdcPWLdUp0000900a@hotmail.com>

A quickie.... Cos
this has snucked onto my screen from another List. Not being in the United 
States I can't do much with it - except send it across to you'se lot who's 
living over there... sounds interesting - saying they want poets...
So don't let the slam stuff (if that's what Loudpoet is about) have all the 
best lines!
Bob


Hi Friends, (writes somebody else - also in a hurry)
this is forwarded via the Loudpoet board of NY. J

From:    kashaf.chaudhry at walltowall.co.uk (Kashaf Chaudhry)

Hello,

I am working on a 50 minute documentary profiling the lives of
American Muslims for the Discovery Channel. We are going to be
filming across the States and with Muslims of ALL backgrounds;
ethnic, social and cultural.

The programme is going to be a portrait of peoples lives and aims to
raise the level of understanding in the States and Europe. I am
looking for people that can tell us their story of what it is to be
an American and a Muslim. We will see them at work, rest and play.

To do this I need to find people from all walks of life and from all
ethnic backgrounds in particular African-American, Arab and South
Asian (Indian subcontinent). They can be stockbrokers, basketball
players, teachers, police officers, shopkeepers or even musicians.
They can live in big cities, the suburbs or on a farm. The more
diverse the better. I know it sounds like a comprehensive list but  I
want to make sure that I get a good representation of Muslims across
the States.

I am contacting you because I would be interested to find out if
there are any poets that are Muslim and that you thought might be
worth contacting.

I am on an insane schedule and only have approximately 7 days to find
the above characters so I'm afraid this is an urgent request. I hope
that you can help me in this endeavor and look forward to your reply.

Yours

Kashaf Chaudhry
Wall to Wall Television Ltd.
8-9 Spring Place,
Kentish Town,
London NW5 3ER
Tel: 011 44 207 241 9313


"I was going to die, if not sooner then later, whether or not I had ever
spoken myself. My silences had not protected me. Your silence will not
protect you."  --Audre Lorde
_____________________________________
a little bit louder - http://www.geocities.com/loudpoet - NYC's home for
the best spoken word.  To be removed from this list, send an email to:
loudNOTES-unsubscribe at yahoogroups.com

To modify your subscription and access other list functions, visit the
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***** http://www.geocities.com/loudpoet *****





_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp



From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Oct 26 13:37:53 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 13:37:53 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Palestinian Poet, Professor Awarded
Message-ID: <165.2ef6e8a.290af971@aol.com>

Friday October 26 5:19 AM ET 

Palestinian Poet, Professor Awarded

NEW YORK (AP) - Palestinian poet Mahmoud Darwish and Columbia University 
professor Edward Said, an outspoken advocate for the Palestinian cause, have 
won awards from the Lannan Foundation. 

Darwish, who writes in Arabic, will receive the foundation's $350,000 award 
for cultural freedom. Said, a prominent literary scholar and a former adviser 
to Yasser Arafat, will receive the foundation's $200,000 literary award for 
lifetime achievement. 

The foundation, based in Santa Fe, N.M., announced the awards Thursday 
through David Lerner, a spokesman in New York. The award to Said is the first 
by the foundation for a work of nonfiction. 

The lifetime achievement award, which honors writers who have made 
significant contributions to English-language literature, is the largest 
monetary prize for literary achievement in the world after the Nobel Prize, 
which comes with a $900,000 award. 

Patrick Lannan, who heads the family-run foundation, said Darwish and Said 
were chosen long before the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. The Lannan Foundation 
describes itself as dedicated to cultural freedom, diversity and creativity. 

In a telephone interview, Lannan described Darwish as ``arguably, the most 
prominent contemporary poet writing in Arabic in the world. We felt his 
poetry was important and deserved wider translation into English. We wanted 
to call attention to his social conscience.'' 

Said, an English professor, was honored because ``he founded a theory for 
literary criticism and literary evaluation and there's not a university 
professor in the Western world who doesn't know his work,'' Lannan said. 

Said, who is an American citizen, sparked a controversy last year when he 
threw a rock toward an Israeli guardhouse on the Lebanese border. Columbia 
University did not censure him, saying that the stone was directed at no one, 
no law was broken and that his actions were protected by principles of 
academic freedom. 



From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Fri Oct 26 02:47:38 2001
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 01:47:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Palestinian Poet, Professor Awarded
In-Reply-To: <165.2ef6e8a.290af971@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B7FE713A.1F2D%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 10/26/01 12:37 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> Friday October 26 5:19 AM ET
> 
> Palestinian Poet, Professor Awarded
> 
> NEW YORK (AP) - Palestinian poet Mahmoud Darwish and Columbia University
> professor Edward Said, an outspoken advocate for the Palestinian cause, have
> won awards from the Lannan Foundation.
> 
> Darwish, who writes in Arabic, will receive the foundation's $350,000 award
> for cultural freedom. Said, a prominent literary scholar and a former adviser
> to Yasser Arafat, will receive the foundation's $200,000 literary award for
> lifetime achievement.
> 
> The foundation, based in Santa Fe, N.M., announced the awards Thursday
> through David Lerner, a spokesman in New York. The award to Said is the first
> by the foundation for a work of nonfiction.
> 
> The lifetime achievement award, which honors writers who have made
> significant contributions to English-language literature, is the largest
> monetary prize for literary achievement in the world after the Nobel Prize,
> which comes with a $900,000 award.
> 
> Patrick Lannan, who heads the family-run foundation, said Darwish and Said
> were chosen long before the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. The Lannan Foundation
> describes itself as dedicated to cultural freedom, diversity and creativity.
> 
> In a telephone interview, Lannan described Darwish as ``arguably, the most
> prominent contemporary poet writing in Arabic in the world. We felt his
> poetry was important and deserved wider translation into English. We wanted
> to call attention to his social conscience.''
> 
> Said, an English professor, was honored because ``he founded a theory for
> literary criticism and literary evaluation and there's not a university
> professor in the Western world who doesn't know his work,'' Lannan said.
> 
> Said, who is an American citizen, sparked a controversy last year when he
> threw a rock toward an Israeli guardhouse on the Lebanese border. Columbia
> University did not censure him, saying that the stone was directed at no one,
> no law was broken and that his actions were protected by principles of
> academic freedom.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
Said also sparked controversy by publishing self-serving lies about his
childhood and Palestinian upbringing. Only in the politically skewed world
of American foundations can terrorist sympathizers and liars be so richly
honored. I wonder if the Lannan Foundation's commitment to "diversity"
extends beyond Said's end of the political spectrum.



From kellogg at duke.edu  Fri Oct 26 14:25:41 2001
From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 14:25:41 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Palestinian Poet, Professor Awarded
References: <B7FE713A.1F2D%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <3BD9AAA5.2AFECCC1@duke.edu>

Paul Lake wrote:

> Said also sparked controversy by publishing self-serving lies about his
> childhood and Palestinian upbringing. Only in the politically skewed world
> of American foundations can terrorist sympathizers and liars be so richly
> honored. I wonder if the Lannan Foundation's commitment to "diversity"
> extends beyond Said's end of the political spectrum.

Paul,

This is beneath you.  The controversy over Said's autobiographical statements is
nowhere near as clear-cut as you suggest.  If I recall, some of the accusations
against Said were dissected in Amos Elon's review of *Out of Place* in the *New
York Review of Books*.  Also, in what sense, Paul, is Said a terrorist sympathizer?

David Kellogg
Director, Writing in the Disciplines
Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing
Duke University
(919) 668-1615; FAX (919) 681-0637
http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg




From spacks at snowcrest.net  Fri Oct 26 16:00:39 2001
From: spacks at snowcrest.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 13:00:39 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Palestinian Poet, Professor Awarded
In-Reply-To: <B7FE713A.1F2D%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
References: <165.2ef6e8a.290af971@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011026130039.007ccbd0@snowcrest.net>

At 01:47 AM 10/26/01 -0500, Paul Lake wrote:

Said also sparked controversy by publishing self-serving lies about his
childhood and Palestinian upbringing. Only in the politically skewed world
of American foundations can terrorist sympathizers and liars be so richly
honored. I wonder if the Lannan Foundation's commitment to "diversity"
extends beyond Said's end of the political spectrum.

Hear-Hear here!

B. Spacks
UCSB



From gmcvay at patriot.net  Fri Oct 26 15:46:32 2001
From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 15:46:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Palestinian Poet, Professor Awarded
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20011026130039.007ccbd0@snowcrest.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0110261545390.30166-100000@adams.patriot.net>

>>>Only in the politically skewed world
of American foundations can terrorist sympathizers and liars be so richly
honored.

Iran-Contra liar Oliver North came far too close to being richly honored
by becoming the Senator from Virginia.



From spacks at snowcrest.net  Fri Oct 26 16:17:01 2001
From: spacks at snowcrest.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 13:17:01 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Palestinian Poet, Professor Awarded
In-Reply-To: <3BD9AAA5.2AFECCC1@duke.edu>
References: <B7FE713A.1F2D%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011026131701.007ccbc0@snowcrest.net>

At 02:25 PM 10/26/01 -0400, David Kellogg wrote:
 In what sense, Paul, is Said a terrorist sympathizer?

Read his many screeds against the bully-Israelis
who kill and destroy at random, unprovoked, 
propelled by their greedy-evil-instincts as far as one can 
gather from Said (shades of the Protocols of Zion!). 

He comes across clearly these days as a supporter 
of terror-violence, so obviously, give him a prize.

B. Spacks

What's so funny about peace love and punctuation?
				-- Sally Russell 




From spacks at snowcrest.net  Fri Oct 26 16:22:38 2001
From: spacks at snowcrest.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 13:22:38 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Palestinian Poet, Professor Awarded
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0110261545390.30166-100000@adams.patriot.net
 >
References: <3.0.5.32.20011026130039.007ccbd0@snowcrest.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011026132238.007c94b0@snowcrest.net>

At 03:46 PM 10/26/01 -0400, Gwyn McVay wrote:

Iran-Contra liar Oliver North came far too close to being richly honored
by becoming the Senator from Virginia.

idiots to the left of us, idiots to the right

B. Spacks
UCSB




From kellogg at duke.edu  Fri Oct 26 16:14:59 2001
From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:14:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Palestinian Poet, Professor Awarded
References: <B7FE713A.1F2D%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu> <3.0.5.32.20011026131701.007ccbc0@snowcrest.net>
Message-ID: <3BD9C442.BE44DE0C@duke.edu>

Barry,

Not to quibble, but that doesn't answer my question.  Being against
Israeli policy, "greater Israel" settlements in Gaza and the West
Bank, bulldozing of Palestinian homes, "targeted killings" (read:
assassinations), etc. does not make one sympathetic with terrorism.
One can find all those policies inhumane & yes, bullying, but still be
opposed to terrorism by Hamas & Hezbollah.  So he's a supporter of the
Palestinian cause (actually, a supporter of a two-state solution).
Big deal; so am I. To repeat: that doesn't make him a terrorist
sympathizer.   Nor does it make him anti-Semitic.  The Protocols smear
is unworthy of you, as the earlier smear was unworthy of Paul.

Best,
David

Barry Spacks wrote:

> At 02:25 PM 10/26/01 -0400, David Kellogg wrote:
>  In what sense, Paul, is Said a terrorist sympathizer?
>
> Read his many screeds against the bully-Israelis
> who kill and destroy at random, unprovoked,
> propelled by their greedy-evil-instincts as far as one can
> gather from Said (shades of the Protocols of Zion!).
>
> He comes across clearly these days as a supporter
> of terror-violence, so obviously, give him a prize.
>
> B. Spacks
>
> What's so funny about peace love and punctuation?
>                                 -- Sally Russell
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

--
David Kellogg
Director, Writing in the Disciplines
Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing
Duke University
(919) 668-1615; FAX (919) 681-0637
http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg




From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Fri Oct 26 05:11:00 2001
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 04:11:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Palestinian Poet, Professor Awarded
In-Reply-To: <3BD9AAA5.2AFECCC1@duke.edu>
Message-ID: <B7FE92D4.1F38%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>


I'm no expert on the subject, but from what I've read, some of Said's
statements--about being displaced from his ancestral Palestinian home, for
instance--were pure fabrications, meant to serve propagandistic ends.  I've
read detailed articles suggesting he's sympathetic toward Palestinian
terrorism--as his symbolic rock toss at Israel seems to suggest. And his
published statements since Sept. 11 have been too sympathetic to the
terrorists' perspective, to my taste.  But it's a free country. He can say
whatever he wants.  And the Lannan Foundation is free to reward him for it,
if it pleases.  I'd just rather see the honor bestowed on someone less
dedicated to anti-Western views--particularly now when our values are under
violent assault by religious fanatics. Call me quixotic, but I think the
major foundations can serve literature better than they have in recent
years. I haven't read the poetry of Mahmoud Darwish, the other winner, so I
can't judge it. Perhaps he's the Palestinian Keats.  But doesn't it strike
anyone as odd that the Lannan foundation suddenly chose to honor not one,
but two Palestinians with huge literary awards?  One can't help wondering
whether the decision was based as much on political as aesthetic criteria.
The AP writer was quick to note that the decisions were made before that
date.

In fact, looking back at the AP article to see what provoked my reaction, I
note two odd things. According to the article, "The award to Said is the
first by the foundation for a work of nonfiction."  A literary award for a
work of academic criticism--that's odd--unless someone is less concerned
about literature than politics. Further, the article says, quoting a Lannan
spokesperson, that the other winner, the Palestinian poet Darwish, is
``arguably, the most prominent contemporary poet writing in Arabic in the
world. We felt his poetry was important and deserved wider translation into
English. We wanted to call attention to his social conscience.''
Interesting.  Darhish wins a literary award in America for poetry written in
Arabic, little of which has even been translated. How did the non-Arabic
speaking Lannan judges decide how good he was? Ah, but the foundation wants
to "call attention to his social conscience." In other words, to his
politics. But perhaps the poet's moral compass points in unexpected
directions. The only fair thing to do would be to post a representative
sample of his work on this list and see for ourselves. Many of us are
already aware of the great literary accomplishments of Said.

Can anyone post some of Darwish's work?

Paul Lake
 

Paul Lake



From moira_russell at hotmail.com  Fri Oct 26 16:29:43 2001
From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 12:29:43 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Palestinian Poet, Professor Awarded
Message-ID: <F1478IyFrydlb9rXg5w00010572@hotmail.com>

>Can anyone post some of Darwish's work?

Google provided several URLs, and this seems possibly the best of them:

http://www.humboldt.edu/~jar33/frameforpoem.html

"Passport" seems to be one of his most famous poems.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp



From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Fri Oct 26 05:07:24 2001
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 04:07:24 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Palestinian Poet, Professor Awarded
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.30.0110261545390.30166-100000@adams.patriot.net>
Message-ID: <B7FE91FC.1F36%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 10/26/01 2:46 PM, Gwyn McVay at gmcvay at patriot.net wrote:

>>>> Only in the politically skewed world
> of American foundations can terrorist sympathizers and liars be so richly
> honored.
> 
> Iran-Contra liar Oliver North came far too close to being richly honored
> by becoming the Senator from Virginia.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
Yes, close, but no cigar, thank God. But name one writer as obnoxiously
rightwing as Said is left who's won a major award from a foundation in, oh,
the last ten years. Any genre.

Paul Lake



From JforJames at aol.com  Fri Oct 26 16:57:23 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:57:23 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] NAROPA FESTIVAL in WHITMAN'S CAMDEN
Message-ID: <11e.672c81a.290b2833@aol.com>

NAROPA FESTIVAL in WHITMAN'S CAMDEN

November 10-13, 2001

SATURDAY   NOVEMBER 10, 3:30-5 pm
PANEL
A Noiseless, Patient Spider:
Whitman's Web of Influence on Modern
and Post-Modern Poetics
FREE

PANELISTS
Jack Collom, Rachel Blau DuPlessis
Anselm Hollo, Jena Osman
Bob Perelman, Heather Thomas

RECEPTION        5-6:30 p.m.

READING 7:30 p.m.
Jack Collom
Victor Hernandez Cruz
Anselm Hollo

SUNDAY, NOVEMBER 11

WRITING WORKSHOP
Akilah Oliver 11a.m.-1p.m.
at: Giovanni's Room,1145 Pine Street
Philadelphia, PA  19107  215/923-2960
email: giophilp at netaxs.com

IN THE FIELD OF DESIRE: Queering the Text, 
Writing Your Body Mythography 
As Queer people, we are still writing ourselves into existence. We need 
spaces where we can create and bear witness to one another as we write 
ourselves into voice, into visibility, into imagination. Join writer, teacher 
and performer Akilah Oliver in a lively, interactive writing process. We will 
create the space to investigate and celebrate the body queer. We will use 
journal writing, improvisation, indeterminacy, and storytelling techniques to 
create new narratives. Come discover, unearth, and reinscribe your queer 
myhthography through conscious engagement in the field of desire. 

WHITMAN'S HOUSE AND GRAVESITE TOUR
1-2:30 PM       FREE

READING 3:00 PM
Rachel Blau DuPlessis, Bob Perelman
Heather Thomas, Akilah Oliver

MONDAY, NOVEMBER 12

WRITING WORKSHOPS
Anselm Hollo-10:00 a.m-12 noon

YOUR WORKS!         
This writing workshop will focus on the participants' own poems, their 
intentions and realizations, triumphs, disappointments, and creative 
mistakes.  It will also attempt to examine and clarify the traditions of 
which these poems  partake (consciously or not).  Constructive advice on, and 
criticism of, the works produced by the participants will be given both by 
the instructor and by the participants themselves.  

Laird Hunt-4-6 p.m.(class size limit: 6)
Hybrid Forms

Anne Carson, in the Autobiography of Red, Michael Ondaatje, in the Collected 
Works of Billy the Kid, W.G. Sebald, in The Rings of Saturn, David Markson, 
in Wittgenstein's Mistress, have written books that defy categorization.  We 
will discuss such mongrel works and examine how blending genre and angle of 
attack can help us craft lively and challenging fiction.

READING 7:30 p.m.
Laird Hunt, Jena Osman
Deborah Richards, Edwin Torres

TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 13

WRITING WORKSHOP
Eleni Sikelianos-4-6 p.m.
How Do Poets Respond to Crisis?

The crisis might be personal, political or cultural???war, death, loss, 
madness, oppression, genocide, bombs. Poetry itself might be seen as a crisis 
of language; the crisis of any era embodied in words.  In this workshop, we 
will consider how language might be used in times of trouble.  Poets (who 
have long been writing in the rift) we look to as models for our own poems 
might include Paul Celan, H.D., George Oppen, Walt Whitman, Amiri Baraka.  
Responses might include joyful exuberance to counteract the darkness of the 
times, a disintegrating language that reflects a shredded "reality," poems of 
love as antidote or anodyne.  

READING  7:30 p.m.
Anne Waldman
Samuel Delany
Eleni Sikelianos

About the WRITING WORKSHOPS:
The festival will include 4 writing workshops on Sunday, Monday and Tuesday,
11/11,12&13.  Registration is on a first-come, first-served basis.  Send up 
to 4
pages of writing, your payment, and a SASE if you want your work returned.

Updated Deadline: October 30, 2001.

Fees for the NAROPA FESTIVAL in WHITMAN'S CAMDEN

COMPLETE PACKAGE:  Admission to all readings, and workshops.
$75 (includes membership)   $55 members

WRITING WORKSHOPS:  $30 (includes membership)   $20 members
All workshops will run 2 hours, and are limited to 10 participants,
excluding Laird Hunt's fiction class (6).

READINGS:  General Admission $6/Students & Seniors $4/Members Free

Payments should be made to the Walt Whitman Cultural Arts Center by check or
money order.  Visa, Master Card and American Express are also accepted.
Inquiries:
856-964-8300
wwhitman at waltwhitmancenter.org
www.waltwhitmancenter.org

Alicia Askenase
Literary Program Director
Walt Whitman Cultural Arts Center
2nd and Cooper Sts.
Camden, NJ 08102

Keep the world safe for poetry
--Anne Waldman

Hope to see you there.  Please spread the word, thanks!


From kellogg at duke.edu  Fri Oct 26 17:01:00 2001
From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 17:01:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Palestinian Poet, Professor Awarded
References: <B7FE92D4.1F38%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
Message-ID: <3BD9CF0C.A153DBEB@duke.edu>

Paul Lake wrote:

> I'm no expert on the subject, but from what I've read, some of Said's
> statements--about being displaced from his ancestral Palestinian home, for
> instance--were pure fabrications, meant to serve propagandistic ends.

I've read some of those articles (wasn't there one in Commentary or some other
right-wing magazine?), as well as some of the dissections of same (as in the NY
Review of Books).  In my view, the charges are baseless.

> I've
> read detailed articles suggesting he's sympathetic toward Palestinian
> terrorism--as his symbolic rock toss at Israel seems to suggest.

I guess we'll have to differ on this.  I don't view rock-tossing as terrorism,
and I don't know of any instance where he's supported terrorism.

> And his
> published statements since Sept. 11 have been too sympathetic to the
> terrorists' perspective, to my taste.

They have come across that way to me, too, but I think it may be a
misperception.  It depends what we mean by "the terrorists' perspective," I
guess.  I think some of the attempts (on the left) to understand the _causes_ of
the resentment that produces terrorism -- especially the roots of those causes
in American foreign policy -- can easily be (mis)read as a justification of
terrorism even if they are not meant that way, and especially in the aftermath
of 9-11.  It's worth pointing out that many on the left, such as Christopher
Hitchens, have been right to criticize this conflation and the way statements
from Said and Chomsky allow it.

David Kellogg
Director, Writing in the Disciplines
Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing
Duke University
(919) 668-1615; FAX (919) 681-0637
http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg




From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Fri Oct 26 05:50:11 2001
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 04:50:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Palestinian poet, Lannan Award
Message-ID: <B7FE9C03.1F3D%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

Thanks, Moira, for posting the link to the Darwish poems.

Perhaps in Arabic the poems are lovely.  In these English translations,
however, they surpass even my most awful expectation.  Here are my two
favorite stanzas. The last stanza illustrates what the Lannan Foundation
must have meant about the poet's social conscience:

Record!
I am an Arab
You have stolen the orchards of my ancestors
And the land which I cultivated
Along with my children
And you left nothing for us
Except for these rocks..
So will the State take them
As it has been said?!

Therefor!
Record on the top of the first page:
I do not hate people
Nor do I encroach
But if I become hungry
The usurper?s flesh will be my food
Beware..
Beware..
Of my hunger
And my anger!


Hats off to the Lannan Foundation.

Paul Lake



From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Fri Oct 26 06:00:35 2001
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 05:00:35 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Palestinian poet
Message-ID: <B7FE9E73.1F41%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

David, I'll defer on the other points until I look more carefully at the
evidence, but I'm glad to see we agree here:


 
>They have come across that way to me, too, but I think it may be a
>misperception.  It depends what we mean by "the terrorists' perspective," I
>guess.  I think some of the attempts (on the left) to understand the _causes_
of
>the resentment that produces terrorism -- especially the roots of those causes
>in American foreign policy -- can easily be (mis)read as a justification of
>terrorism even if they are not meant that way, and especially in the aftermath
>of 9-11.  It's worth pointing out that many on the left, such as Christopher
>Hitchens, have been right to criticize this conflation and the way statements
>from Said and Chomsky allow it.



Paul




From GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU  Fri Oct 26 17:28:44 2001
From: GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU (Graham, David)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:28:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Song of the World Becoming
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDFB8@mail.ripon.edu>

I just want to celebrate the arrival in my mailbox of Pattiann Rogers's new
& collected edition, *Song of the World Becoming*, from Milkweed Editions.

Admirers of Rogers's work will be delighted to find 74 pages of new poetry,
along with all 7 of her previous collections.  It's nearly 500 pages of
poetry, and what a strange, wonderfully abundant imagination is on display
throughout.  

Here's a sample, title poem of her 1993 collection:

GEOCENTRIC


Indecent, self-soiled, bilious
reek of turnip and toadstool
decay, dribbling the black oil
of wilted succulents, the brown
fester of rotting orchids,
in plain view, that stain
of stinkhorn down your front,
that leaking roil of bracket
fungi down your back, you
purple-haired, grainy-fuzzed
smolder of refuse, fathering
fumes and boils and powdery
mildews, enduring the constant
interruptions of sink-mire
flatulence, contagious
with ear-wax, corn smut,
blister rust, backwash
and graveyard debris, rich
with manure bog and dry-rot
harboring not only egg-addled
garbage and wrinkled lip
of orange-peel mold but also
the clotted breath of overripe
radish and burnt leek, bearing
every dank, malodorous rut
and scarp, all sulphur fissures
and fetid hillside seepages, old,
*old*, dependable, engendering
forever the stench and stretch
and warm seethe of inevitable
putrefaction, nobody
loves you as I do.

--Pattiann Rogers




===================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
===================


From spacks at snowcrest.net  Fri Oct 26 17:58:21 2001
From: spacks at snowcrest.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 14:58:21 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Palestinian Poet, Professor Awarded
In-Reply-To: <3BD9C442.BE44DE0C@duke.edu>
References: <B7FE713A.1F2D%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
 <3.0.5.32.20011026131701.007ccbc0@snowcrest.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011026145821.007c7860@snowcrest.net>

At 04:14 PM 10/26/01 -0400, David Kellogg wrote:
So he's a supporter of the
>Palestinian cause (actually, a supporter of a two-state solution).
>Big deal; so am I.

So am I, too, David.
 
 >To repeat: that doesn't make him a terrorist
>sympathizer.   Nor does it make him anti-Semitic.  The Protocols smear
>is unworthy of you, as the earlier smear was unworthy of Paul.

beg to differ: sympathies so wildly one-sided, with no
gesture toward a sense of self-defense on the Israeli side,
with no exclusion of suicide terror-tactics on the other (at such 
a moment!) -- what does this add up to? To approve wholesale 
a cause forefronted by terror, to condemn and condemn 
"the enemy" as seemingly mindlessly violent, with no sense of 
cause-effect considered...granted, he is not now self-described 
as a terrorist-sympathizer, who'd expect him to reach for such 
a label? but consider recent political writings by Said and see 
just how close, by implication, he comes. 

Barry Spacks





From kellogg at duke.edu  Fri Oct 26 17:58:18 2001
From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 17:58:18 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Palestinian Poet, Professor Awarded
References: <B7FE713A.1F2D%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>
	 <3.0.5.32.20011026131701.007ccbc0@snowcrest.net> <3.0.5.32.20011026145821.007c7860@snowcrest.net>
Message-ID: <3BD9DC7A.BC513745@duke.edu>

Barry Spacks wrote:

> At 04:14 PM 10/26/01 -0400, David Kellogg wrote:
> So he's a supporter of the
> >Palestinian cause (actually, a supporter of a two-state solution).
> >Big deal; so am I.
>
> So am I, too, David.
>
>  >To repeat: that doesn't make him a terrorist
> >sympathizer.   Nor does it make him anti-Semitic.  The Protocols smear
> >is unworthy of you, as the earlier smear was unworthy of Paul.
>
> beg to differ: sympathies so wildly one-sided, with no
> gesture toward a sense of self-defense on the Israeli side,
> with no exclusion of suicide terror-tactics on the other (at such a
> moment!) -- what does this add up to? To approve wholesale a cause
> forefronted by terror, to condemn and condemn "the enemy" as seemingly
> mindlessly violent, with no sense of

Does he use that term ("the enemy")?

> cause-effect considered...granted, he is not now self-described
> as a terrorist-sympathizer, who'd expect him to reach for such
> a label? but consider recent political writings by Said and see
> just how close, by implication, he comes.

Barry,

Since Said has publicly embraced a two-state solution -- and thus Israel's
right to exist -- I maintain that the Protocols association remains off the
mark.

David Kellogg
Director, Writing in the Disciplines
Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing
Duke University
(919) 668-1615; FAX (919) 681-0637
http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg




From kellogg at duke.edu  Fri Oct 26 17:59:07 2001
From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg)
Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 17:59:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Palestinian Poet, Professor Awarded
References: <B7FE92D4.1F38%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu> <3BD9CF0C.A153DBEB@duke.edu>
Message-ID: <3BD9DCAB.D7E27A78@duke.edu>

Paul,

Piggybacking on my own post, just to make some clarifications.

David Kellogg wrote:

> Paul Lake wrote:
>
> > I'm no expert on the subject, but from what I've read, some of Said's
> > statements--about being displaced from his ancestral Palestinian home, for
> > instance--were pure fabrications, meant to serve propagandistic ends.
>
> I've read some of those articles (wasn't there one in Commentary or some other
> right-wing magazine?), as well as some of the dissections of same (as in the NY
> Review of Books).  In my view, the charges are baseless.
>
> > I've
> > read detailed articles suggesting he's sympathetic toward Palestinian
> > terrorism--as his symbolic rock toss at Israel seems to suggest.

How do you throw a rock at a country?  I've read about this picture, but I haven't
seen it.  I would like to see it, though, to see whether it's a rock toss "at
Israel," as you say here, or something more specific.  The rock throw could be an
attack on "Israel," or it could be a gesture against specific Israeli policies
(e.g., settlements).  I don't want to split hairs, but broad-brush language is one
of the things that has hampered understanding of the specific conditions of the area
in the first place.

> I guess we'll have to differ on this.  I don't view rock-tossing as terrorism,
> and I don't know of any instance where he's supported terrorism.
>
> > And his
> > published statements since Sept. 11 have been too sympathetic to the
> > terrorists' perspective, to my taste.
>
> They have come across that way to me, too, but I think it may be a
> misperception.  It depends what we mean by "the terrorists' perspective," I
> guess.  I think some of the attempts (on the left) to understand the _causes_ of
> the resentment that produces terrorism -- especially the roots of those causes
> in American foreign policy -- can easily be (mis)read as a justification of
> terrorism even if they are not meant that way, and especially in the aftermath
> of 9-11.  It's worth pointing out that many on the left, such as Christopher
> Hitchens, have been right to criticize this conflation and the way statements
> from Said and Chomsky allow it.
>

Paul, thanks for your concurrence on this last point.  And to further clarify, I
think we should change our policy on Israel and Palestine because it's the right
thing to do, not because of 9-11.  Osama bin Laden doesn't give a shit in a cave
about Palestine, but he does use it as a pretext. Similarly, the US should not use
bin Laden as a reason for policy changes (or the lack of policy changes) which are
justified on their own terms.

Cheers,
David

David Kellogg
Director, Writing in the Disciplines
Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing
Duke University
(919) 668-1615; FAX (919) 681-0637
http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg




From JforJames at aol.com  Sat Oct 27 10:55:19 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 10:55:19 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jack Kerouac School job posting
Message-ID: <ae.1cd4f171.290c24d7@aol.com>

I had to laugh a little that the Kerouac School insists 
"candidates will possess an M.F.A. in Creative Writing; a Ph.D.
is preffered." Dr. Sax, perhaps....

----
Date:    Fri, 26 Oct 2001 17:25:11 EDT
From:    Anselm Hollo <JDHollo at AOL.COM>
Subject: Jack Kerouac School job posting

Job Posting

Assistant Professor of Creative Writing
Department of Writing & Poetics

Job Description
This faculty position is responsible for the development and delivery of
creative writing courses within the Department of Writing & Poetics.  The
proposed workload for the instructor is three courses per semester.  The
instructor will also mentor students, provide service to the University
through committee appointments, and other faculty administrative tasks.  This
faculty position reports to the Chair of the Department of Writing & Poetics.

Qualified candidates will possess an M.F.A. in Creative Writing; a Ph.D. is
preferred.  Candidates must have a sustained creative writing practice in two
or more of the following areas: fiction, creative non-fiction, poetry, drama,
cross-genre, or translation.  Candidates must have a familiarity with
contemporary trends in literary forms and genres and be able to teach a range
of literary and cultural studies courses.  Candidates must demonstrate a
distinguished record of publication and teaching.  Experience in
contemplative practice desirable.  An ability and desire to work with people
of all backgrounds is essential.

This position is a full-time, exempt position with benefits and will begin
August 1, 2001.  The starting salary range is $27,500 to $30,000 commensurate
with qualifications and experience.

Naropa University is actively engaged in creating an inclusive, diverse
community and is proud to be an Equal Opportunity Employer.

Qualified candidates must submit: a letter of application, vita, one page
philosophy of teaching, sample syllabi, student evaluations, a sample of
published creative work and/or work in progress, and four letters of
reference (at least three of these must be from peers).

Send completed application package to:
Naropa University
Department of Human Resources
Attn: Dept. of Writing & Poetics Search Committee
2130 Arapahoe Avenue
Boulder, CO  80302
(Fax) 303-245-4634
(E-Mail) employment at naropa.edu

Naropa University
Department of Human Resources
2130 Arapahoe Avenue, Boulder CO  80302
Voice: (303) 546-3556   Fax: (303) 245-4634
E-mail: amy at naropa.edu


Date position posted: 10/8/01
Date position closes: 11/30/01


From cstroffo at earthlink.net  Sat Oct 27 13:42:31 2001
From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 10:42:31 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jack Kerouac School job posting
References: <ae.1cd4f171.290c24d7@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3BDAF206.77DFF1ED@earthlink.net>

Or Dr. Sachs 5th Ave more likely these days
yep---it's certainly no longer "Dr. Sex"
although I do remember once a "Dr. Katie Yates" there
more and more and more disembodied, alas....
but if you're interested in Schelling out a lot of money...

(actually Anselm Hollo seems good though....)

JforJames at aol.com wrote:

> I had to laugh a little that the Kerouac School insists
> "candidates will possess an M.F.A. in Creative Writing; a Ph.D.
> is preffered." Dr. Sax, perhaps....
>
> ----
> Date:    Fri, 26 Oct 2001 17:25:11 EDT
> From:    Anselm Hollo <JDHollo at AOL.COM>
> Subject: Jack Kerouac School job posting
>
> Job Posting
>
> Assistant Professor of Creative Writing
> Department of Writing & Poetics
>
> Job Description
> This faculty position is responsible for the development and delivery of
> creative writing courses within the Department of Writing & Poetics.  The
> proposed workload for the instructor is three courses per semester.  The
> instructor will also mentor students, provide service to the University
> through committee appointments, and other faculty administrative tasks.  This
> faculty position reports to the Chair of the Department of Writing & Poetics.
>
> Qualified candidates will possess an M.F.A. in Creative Writing; a Ph.D. is
> preferred.  Candidates must have a sustained creative writing practice in two
> or more of the following areas: fiction, creative non-fiction, poetry, drama,
> cross-genre, or translation.  Candidates must have a familiarity with
> contemporary trends in literary forms and genres and be able to teach a range
> of literary and cultural studies courses.  Candidates must demonstrate a
> distinguished record of publication and teaching.  Experience in
> contemplative practice desirable.  An ability and desire to work with people
> of all backgrounds is essential.
>
> This position is a full-time, exempt position with benefits and will begin
> August 1, 2001.  The starting salary range is $27,500 to $30,000 commensurate
> with qualifications and experience.
>
> Naropa University is actively engaged in creating an inclusive, diverse
> community and is proud to be an Equal Opportunity Employer.
>
> Qualified candidates must submit: a letter of application, vita, one page
> philosophy of teaching, sample syllabi, student evaluations, a sample of
> published creative work and/or work in progress, and four letters of
> reference (at least three of these must be from peers).
>
> Send completed application package to:
> Naropa University
> Department of Human Resources
> Attn: Dept. of Writing & Poetics Search Committee
> 2130 Arapahoe Avenue
> Boulder, CO  80302
> (Fax) 303-245-4634
> (E-Mail) employment at naropa.edu
>
> Naropa University
> Department of Human Resources
> 2130 Arapahoe Avenue, Boulder CO  80302
> Voice: (303) 546-3556   Fax: (303) 245-4634
> E-mail: amy at naropa.edu
>
> Date position posted: 10/8/01
> Date position closes: 11/30/01
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From TerryP17 at aol.com  Sat Oct 27 16:30:44 2001
From: TerryP17 at aol.com (TerryP17 at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 16:30:44 EDT
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Palestinian Poet, Lannan Award
Message-ID: <156.317f1b2.290c7374@aol.com>

David--

In a message dated 10/27/01 12:06:28 PM, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
writes:

>Paul, thanks for your concurrence on this last point.  And to further 
clarify,
>I
>think we should change our policy on Israel and Palestine because it's
>the right
>thing to do, not because of 9-11.  Osama bin Laden doesn't give a shit
>in a cave
>about Palestine, but he does use it as a pretext. Similarly, the US should
>not use
>bin Laden as a reason for policy changes (or the lack of policy changes)
>which are
>justified on their own terms.>>

Interesting exchanges on PC or not PC poetry from our Middle-Eastern friends. 
Living in the DC area and following these political events minutely for 
years, I have to pretty much concur with Paul's opinion on the matter. I also 
have to wonder what it is that we need to change about our policy, re: 
Palestine. I was under the distinct impression that Clinton and Ehud Baruk 
were prepared to give away the store--including a chunk of Jerusalem--last 
summer in the breathtakingly daring and controversial marathon Camp David 
peace negotiationsto with our friend Arafat. Arafat helpfully responded by 
firing up the current murderous intifada, which had the salutory effect of 
overthrowing Israel's Baruk and replacing him with the always peace-loving 
and accomodating Ariel Sharon. I hardly regard this turn of events as the 
fault of American policy--rather the fault of Arafat who always manages to 
snatch defeat from the jaws of victory for which our policy then gets the 
blame.

As far as the Lannen people, I wonder why they didn't consider giving their 
award to someone like my friend Joe Awad, considered by many to be the "dean" 
of Arab-American poets and also the Poet Laureate of Virginia in 1998-2000. 
Joe and Greg Orfalea, another Arab-American poet and an old college chum of 
mine were responsible for getting in the mid 1990s, right across from the 
Vice-presidential mansion, a beautiful, pastoral fountain/monument to Arab- 
and somewhat American poet Kahlil Ghibran, including some nice verses on love 
and peace. Pointing awards and attention toward a poet like Awad would, I 
think, have been far more constructive and positive than what was done.

--Terry Ponick


From spacks at snowcrest.net  Sat Oct 27 21:15:25 2001
From: spacks at snowcrest.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 18:15:25 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Palestinian Poet, Lannan Award
In-Reply-To: <156.317f1b2.290c7374@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011027181525.007d7100@snowcrest.net>

Heartfelt thanks to Terry Ponick for his wise and 
temperate words (below) at a time when certain rabid 
Americans -- Americans! -- celebrate 9/11 as part of 
the unceasing war against the Jews; a time when 
violent propagandistas are laureled with literary awards.

Barry Spacks
********************
>David--
>
>In a message dated 10/27/01 12:06:28 PM, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
>writes:
>
>>Paul, thanks for your concurrence on this last point.  And to further 
>clarify,
>>I
>>think we should change our policy on Israel and Palestine because it's
>>the right
>>thing to do, not because of 9-11.  Osama bin Laden doesn't give a shit
>>in a cave
>>about Palestine, but he does use it as a pretext. Similarly, the US should
>>not use
>>bin Laden as a reason for policy changes (or the lack of policy changes)
>>which are
>>justified on their own terms.>>
>
>Interesting exchanges on PC or not PC poetry from our Middle-Eastern
friends. 
>Living in the DC area and following these political events minutely for 
>years, I have to pretty much concur with Paul's opinion on the matter. I
also 
>have to wonder what it is that we need to change about our policy, re: 
>Palestine. I was under the distinct impression that Clinton and Ehud Baruk 
>were prepared to give away the store--including a chunk of Jerusalem--last 
>summer in the breathtakingly daring and controversial marathon Camp David 
>peace negotiationsto with our friend Arafat. Arafat helpfully responded by 
>firing up the current murderous intifada, which had the salutory effect of 
>overthrowing Israel's Baruk and replacing him with the always peace-loving 
>and accomodating Ariel Sharon. I hardly regard this turn of events as the 
>fault of American policy--rather the fault of Arafat who always manages to 
>snatch defeat from the jaws of victory for which our policy then gets the 
>blame.
>
>As far as the Lannen people, I wonder why they didn't consider giving their 
>award to someone like my friend Joe Awad, considered by many to be the
"dean" 
>of Arab-American poets and also the Poet Laureate of Virginia in 1998-2000. 
>Joe and Greg Orfalea, another Arab-American poet and an old college chum of 
>mine were responsible for getting in the mid 1990s, right across from the 
>Vice-presidential mansion, a beautiful, pastoral fountain/monument to Arab- 
>and somewhat American poet Kahlil Ghibran, including some nice verses on
love 
>and peace. Pointing awards and attention toward a poet like Awad would, I 
>think, have been far more constructive and positive than what was done.
>
>--Terry Ponick
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


From kellogg at duke.edu  Sat Oct 27 23:16:00 2001
From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 23:16:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Palestinian Poet, Lannan Award
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20011027181525.007d7100@snowcrest.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.1011027224759.23976A-100000@godzilla1.acpub.duke.edu>

On Sat, 27 Oct 2001, Barry Spacks wrote:

> Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 18:15:25 -0700
> From: Barry Spacks <spacks at snowcrest.net>
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Palestinian Poet, Lannan Award
> 
> 
> Heartfelt thanks to Terry Ponick for his wise and 
> temperate words (below) at a time when certain rabid 
> Americans -- Americans! -- celebrate 9/11 as part of 
> the unceasing war against the Jews; a time when 
> violent propagandistas are laureled with literary awards.

Barry, 

Terry's words have some wisdom and some merit, and are pretty temperate,
though one could disagree with specifics (I do -- see below).  I'm not
sure your words are either wise or temperate, however.  What "unceasing
war against the Jews" are you referring to?  The intifada?  What Americans
are celebrating it as part of such a war?  What does it help to label Said
a "violent propagandista," and how wise or temperate is such a label?  Or
maybe I'm jumping the gun -- maybe you're referring to Darwish.  In that
case, you may be right.  The translations I read were certainly loathsome
as poetry, though I don't know how violent he is. 

 
> Barry Spacks
> ********************
> >David--
> >
> >In a message dated 10/27/01 12:06:28 PM, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
> >writes:
> >
> >>Paul, thanks for your concurrence on this last point.  And to further 
> >clarify,
> >>I
> >>think we should change our policy on Israel and Palestine because it's
> >>the right
> >>thing to do, not because of 9-11.  Osama bin Laden doesn't give a shit
> >>in a cave
> >>about Palestine, but he does use it as a pretext. Similarly, the US should
> >>not use
> >>bin Laden as a reason for policy changes (or the lack of policy changes)
> >>which are
> >>justified on their own terms.>>
> >
> >Interesting exchanges on PC or not PC poetry from our Middle-Eastern
> friends. 
> >Living in the DC area and following these political events minutely for 
> >years, I have to pretty much concur with Paul's opinion on the matter. I
> also 
> >have to wonder what it is that we need to change about our policy, re: 
> >Palestine. I was under the distinct impression that Clinton and Ehud Baruk 
> >were prepared to give away the store--including a chunk of Jerusalem--last 
> >summer in the breathtakingly daring and controversial marathon Camp David 
> >peace negotiationsto with our friend Arafat. Arafat helpfully responded by 
> >firing up the current murderous intifada, 

Arafat was wrong and stupid not to work with the proposal, which would
have been opposed by many in Israel anyway.  But IIRC, the current
intifada was sparked not by the failure of the Camp David negotiations but
by Ariel Sharon's inflammatory visit to the Dome of the Rock (or the
Temple Mount, depending on which name you give it).  Now it's silly to
attribute the intifada to one rather personal event like that; the current
configuration of problems really began with the assassination of Rabin by
an Israeli extremist.  But I also wouldn't say it was started in response
to Camp David. 

As for the failure of negotiations, weren't the settlements continuing,
even at an increasing pace, during the Barak administration?  Hasn't the
continued bulldozing of Palestinian homes and the continued de-Arabization
of Jerusalem been a policy (and a problem) long before Sharon?  These
issues of deterritorialization and deracination never were dealt with
during the negotiations.  I think the negotiations were in good faith, but
I also think the continued development of Israeli settlements in occupied
territories *during the negotiations* could have suggested to Arafat that
maybe Israel never expected the settlements to be abandoned, as they
should be. 

As for a change in policy: I would say we should quit arming Israel until
they quit building settlements in occupied Palestine.  American arms and
money should not support an obviously oppressive policy.  Or would anyone
like to _defend_ the settlements or the occupation?  

Bush should also quit snubbing Arafat as he has done so far -- his pointed
refusal to meet with him has contributed to the perception in the Arab
world that Bush's support for Israel is unending.  Thank God for Sharon's
stupid speech comparing Israel to Czechoslovakia. 

As for the "murderous intifada": let's distinguish between rock-throwing 
children and suicide bombers, if possible.  Not that body counts should 
make much of a difference, either, but last I looked, far more 
Palestinians had been killed in the recent uprising than Israelis, 
including how many? five? in the last re-occupation of Bethlehem etc. 

> >which had the salutory effect of 
> >overthrowing Israel's Baruk and replacing him with the always peace-loving 
> >and accomodating Ariel Sharon. I hardly regard this turn of events as the 
> >fault of American policy--rather the fault of Arafat who always manages to 
> >snatch defeat from the jaws of victory for which our policy then gets the 
> >blame.

This is true.  Although I disagree with you about the spark for the 
current intifada, I think it was a politically stupid thing for Arafat to 
do.  

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Kellogg			Director, Writing in the Disciplines
kellogg at duke.edu		Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing
(919) 660-4357		 	Duke University
FAX (919) 660-4372		http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/




From spacks at snowcrest.net  Sat Oct 27 23:37:42 2001
From: spacks at snowcrest.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 20:37:42 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Palestinian Poet, Lannan Award
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.1011027224759.23976A-100000@godzilla1.acpub.
 duke.edu>
References: <3.0.5.32.20011027181525.007d7100@snowcrest.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011027203742.007b3300@snowcrest.net>

At 11:16 PM 10/27/01 -0400, David Kellogg wrote:
>
 What "unceasing
>war against the Jews" are you referring to?  The intifada?  What Americans
>are celebrating it as part of such a war?  What does it help to label Said
>a "violent propagandista," and how wise or temperate is such a label?  Or
>maybe I'm jumping the gun -- maybe you're referring to Darwish.  In that
>case, you may be right.  The translations I read were certainly loathsome
>as poetry, though I don't know how violent he is. 

David,

Surely you know what I'm talking about. I won't
engage with your questions. My words stand
as delivered, their implications easily interpretable.

Barry


From kellogg at duke.edu  Sat Oct 27 23:48:36 2001
From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 23:48:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Palestinian Poet, Lannan Award
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20011027203742.007b3300@snowcrest.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.1011027234433.14805A-100000@godzilla4.acpub.duke.edu>

On Sat, 27 Oct 2001, Barry Spacks wrote:
> At 11:16 PM 10/27/01 -0400, David Kellogg wrote:
> >
>  What "unceasing
> >war against the Jews" are you referring to?  The intifada?  What Americans
> >are celebrating it as part of such a war?  What does it help to label Said
> >a "violent propagandista," and how wise or temperate is such a label?  Or
> >maybe I'm jumping the gun -- maybe you're referring to Darwish.  In that
> >case, you may be right.  The translations I read were certainly loathsome
> >as poetry, though I don't know how violent he is. 
> 
> David,
> 
> Surely you know what I'm talking about. I won't
> engage with your questions. My words stand
> as delivered, their implications easily interpretable.

Barry,

Maybe I am an idiot or uninformed, but I really don't know what you're 
talking about.  I heard of no Americans celebrating 9-11 at all.  Were 
there some who did?  I'm not trying to be difficult.

David
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David Kellogg			Director, Writing in the Disciplines
kellogg at duke.edu		Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing
(919) 660-4357		 	Duke University
FAX (919) 660-4372		http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/



From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com  Sun Oct 28 00:25:15 2001
From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 21:25:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jack Kerouac School job posting
Message-ID: <20011028042515.D03943ED3@sitemail.everyone.net>

An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed...
Name: not available
URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20011027/f40ecd69/attachment.ksh>

From spacks at snowcrest.net  Sat Oct 27 23:39:12 2001
From: spacks at snowcrest.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 20:39:12 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Palestinian Poet, Lannan Award
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SOL.3.91.1011027234433.14805A-100000@godzilla4.acpub.
 duke.edu>
References: <3.0.5.32.20011027203742.007b3300@snowcrest.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011027203912.007dc910@snowcrest.net>

>> At 11:16 PM 10/27/01 -0400, David Kellogg wrote:
>
>Barry,
>
 I'm not trying to be difficult.

Much appreciated, David, & I'm sorry if I waxed snippy.

Perhaps we should take this exchange off-list
to private exchange and give politics a rest?

But to be explicit as requested, I had reference to a Washington
Post report excerpted on line at MSNBC in regard to celebratory
Americans -- easy to dismiss the celebrators unless you take
the lead of the article seriously, namely that The F.B.I. now 
concentrates suspicions about the anthrax terror to
"domestic sources."  

Key sentences:

' "The anti-Israel message in the anthrax letters and 
bin Laden?s statements are echoed by U.S. extremist 
groups, said Rabbi Abraham Cooper, associate director 
of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles.

One group, Aryan Action, praises the Sept. 11 attacks 
on its Web site and declares: ?Either you?re fighting 
with the jews against al Qaeda, or you support al Qaeda 
fighting against the jews.?   

Cooper said a meeting this year in Beirut was attended
by neo-Nazis and Islamic extremists united in their hatred 
of Jews. "Some extremists are now globalized," he said.'
_____

As to your question: 'What "unceasing
war against the Jews" are you referring to?' -- I refer
to the one that started roughly 5000 years ago,
heating up whenever scapegoats are needed.

As to my "propagandistas," I do mean both Said
(for recent unbalanced, indeed "rabid" statements)
and Darwish, from the little of his "poetry" available 
in translation.

And I'll add that in my view Sharon was right on target 
raising the specter of Chamberlain & Czechoslovakia:
it's exactly the vilifying of the Jews a la Said that will help
lead to Israel's being thrown to the wolves ultimately as 
sacrifice.

Think of me, if you must, as a paranoid Jew (Capital letter) 
but this is no time to bless with prizes
violent word-workers holding Israel & the U.S. exclusively
responsible for the Palestinian quagmire.

If you're in doubt about anything else I've failed to address
I'll try to expand privately.

peace,

Barry 
     
     
   
   
 
 
        

>
>David
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>David Kellogg			Director, Writing in the Disciplines
>kellogg at duke.edu		Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing
>(919) 660-4357		 	Duke University
>FAX (919) 660-4372		http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>>> >
>>  What "unceasing
>> >war against the Jews" are you referring to?  The intifada?  What Americans
>> >are celebrating it as part of such a war?  What does it help to label Said
>> >a "violent propagandista," and how wise or temperate is such a label?  Or
>> >maybe I'm jumping the gun -- maybe you're referring to Darwish.  In that
>> >case, you may be right.  The translations I read were certainly loathsome
>> >as poetry, though I don't know how violent he is. 



From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Oct 28 09:24:53 2001
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 09:24:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Favorite titles
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGEAFEEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

This morning, my two favorite titles are
*Lead Us Not into Penn Station* (a novel
by Bruce Ducker) and Paul Hindemith's
*Overture to the Flying Dutchman as played
at sight by a second-rate orchestra at the
village well at 7 o'clock in the morning, for
string quartet*.

And who said Germans lack a sense of
humor?

Hal          "Way down the deserted street, I thought I saw
                a bus which, with luck, might get me out of this
                sentence . . . "
                                 --Rosmarie Waldrop
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html


From halvard at earthlink.net  Sun Oct 28 11:57:53 2001
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 11:57:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Notes and musings  10/28
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJECEAKEEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Yesterday, Lynda and I walked downtown several blocks to the Ear Inn,
which is on Spring Street, a block and a bit off West Street, which is famous
now for its riverside run down to Ground Zero.

Saturday-afternoon poetry readings have been a fixture at the Ear Inn for
quite a few years now, and they go on all year round. Lynda and I have been
to exactly two of these. Several years ago, we heard Hannah Weiner and
Tina Darragh read there, but we think we actually went down to hear someone
else, although we can't remember who it was. (Old age ain't for sissies, as
John Gilgun says.)

Yesterday,  Harriet Zinnes, an old friend of ours was reading, along with
Bruce Andrews and Jeanne Lambert. Andrews, a pillar of the
l=a=n=g=u=a=g=e school was up first, and read three delightfully rubble
-ized poems of moderate length. Lambert, an MFA candidate at B'klyn
College was next, and Harriet read last. 

Readings at the Ear Inn are held in the dining room at the back, behind
the bar area. There's a half-wall between the bar (smoking allowed) and
the restaurant (rauchen verboten), but the main difference between the
bar and the restaurant is that the bar serves food with its drinks and the
restaurant serves drinks with its food. When the two waitresses weren't
busy they leaned against the bar and smoked. Cigarette and cigar smoke
wafted gently from front to back. 

So, there were three readers, one emcee (Mike Broder), two waitresses,
two cooks (in the little kitchen just off the dining room), twenty-one or
-two listeners (four or five with Lambert, about three with Andrews, and
five or six who'd some to hear Harriet). I'm not counting eavesdroppers
up front in the bar. The waitresses didn't do much listening but made
frequent trips back into the dining area to rip paper used for table
coverings off a huge roll hung right by the door to the bathroom 
facilities (sign above door in English and Chinese: Mind Your Head).
One of the cooks sometimes listened, leaning against the kitchen door,
spatula in hand. Behind him, above the stove were two pin-tins heaped
with pre-fried bacon. Up front, behind the bar, the bartender (George)
seemed to be listening when he wasn't too busy. Andrews announced
that his second poem was one he'd read at the Ear Inn twenty years
before, and George announced that he had it on tape. (Andrews also
managed to incorporate a loud bit of conversation between George
and one of the waitresses into the poem he was reading--without
missing a beat. Let the world into your poems, gang.)

When the readings were over, the rock jazzy musak came on again,
at maybe four times the decibels of the pre-reading time, during
which Lynda and I were having our burgers. Ah, we thought, they're
trying to drive us out. They want to make room for real drinkers.

And so we said goodbye to Harriet and her daughter Alice, and
started home, up along Washington Street, somewhat protected
from the chill of the riverside. And down along Washington St.
came a battalion of New York's finest, all in uniform, and all on
NYPD motorcycles--a fine flurry of fuzz, let me tell you. It
reminded me of last Sunday in Arizona, sitting in Jim's Outback,
waiting for a gang/troop/motorcyclecade of bikers (beerguts and
mamas and all) to pass by, while Jim searched his mental
Roladex for alternate routes home. Only two of Arizona's finest
that day--escorts fore and aft.

Hal     "I would like the world to know that I
           am a poet first and a would-be assassin last."
                    --John W. Hinckley, Jr.
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html



From TerryP17 at aol.com  Sun Oct 28 13:13:54 2001
From: TerryP17 at aol.com (TerryP17 at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 13:13:54 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Palestinian Poet, Lannan Award
Message-ID: <11.1cc3c670.290da4e2@aol.com>

David and Barry,

Thanks for your interesting replies. David, you are correct that Sharon's 
Dome of the Rock visit was the immediate provocation--or perhaps excuse--for 
the intifada. The whole thing made me crazy at the time since the visit was 
such a blatantly obvious provocation during this post-Camp David period--and 
even more because the Palestinians so predictably took the bait almost 
instantaneously, digging another hole for themselves, a skill set they have 
perfected over many years. You hate to see predictable events happen and 
dominoes fall like that and know there is nothing you can do about it.

Fact is, though, this would have been a far less inflammatory environment had 
Arafat come home with a signed piece of paper from Camp David, which he, 
foolishly, did not, holding out for the last 10% of his "demands" which 
hardly qualifies as negotiation. My main point here is that neither Sharon's 
provocation nor Arafat's refusal to get serious about a peace treaty has 
anything whatsoever to do with American policy, which, whether the Clinton 
flavor or the Bush flavor, has, at least since the mid-1970s, always 
supported peace between these two entities. Unfortunately, as Barry 
indicates, that will require some willingness on both sides to encase 5000 
years of history in concrete and bury it. I am not optimistic, and I am not 
sure what foreign policy will work as long as some parties remain on either 
side whose sole aim in life is to keep the killing going.

There is much that is intractable in the Middle East, much that the people 
over there really have no intention of solving. The Isreali settlements are 
an incredible obstacle on one hand. On the other, so is the fact that 
Palestinians decorate their downtowns with huge color banners of their latest 
"martyrs," flacking them like pop stars and inspiring more young people to 
aspire to this kind of posthumous fame instead of encouraging them to help 
their own people by becoming productive members of society. It is a kind of 
religious nihilism that is difficult for a Western mind to penetrate and a 
hell of a stupid fate to hard-sell to young people. 

Our main failure in foreign policy, in my mind, has been our short attention 
span when it comes to follow-through, a natural consequence of the way our 
society has been allowed  to and encouraged to evolve in the latter half of 
the 20th century. From not helping Saddam's opposition to topple him after 
the Gulf War, to simply picking up and going home after helping the 
Afghanis--and bin Laden!--whittle down the Soviet invaders--leaving these 
hapless people to anarchy and chaos that resulted in the Taliban--we tend to 
just like to get back to our party after our immediate objectives are 
accomplished. It is this that has to stop. It is this kind of tone-deafness 
to the eventual and inevitable consequences of incomplete interventions that 
is fatal and that makes enemies out of once-trusting allies. Whether we 
should even be making these interventions at all is another topic for a 
different kind of discussion board.

Meanwhile, on the poetry front, which is sort of what kicked all these 
discussions off, I was reminded by a backchannel correspondent of an 
excellent book I should have mentioned. So, may I recommend an anthology of 
Arab-American poets entitled "Grape Leaves," edited by one of the poets I 
mentioned in a previous post, Greg Orfalea? My copy is, alas, in storage at 
the moment, but I believe it was published by the Univ. of Colorado press 
circa '89-90. I can't give you a better citation right now. It is an 
intriguing and varied anthology with a wide variety of views and an 
informative historical intro by the editors that really helps put things in 
context. It is this type of volume, I think, that had ought to be winning 
awards. I suspect, however, that only a select few poets and teachers have 
ever read it. 

--Terry Ponick


From pihel_e at pipeline.com  Sun Oct 28 13:50:40 2001
From: pihel_e at pipeline.com (Erik Pihel)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 13:50:40 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Palestinian Poet, Lannan Award
In-Reply-To: <11.1cc3c670.290da4e2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <000001c15fe1$71dffeb0$7541f6d1@aoidos>

Here's a poem by Palestinian New Yorker Suheir Hammad called "first
writing since."  Hammad is author of "Born Palestinian, Born Black."

Erik Pihel
pihel_e at pipeline.com

********************************************************************

1. there have been no words.
i have not written one word.
no poetry in the ashes south of canal street.
no prose in the refrigerated trucks driving debris and dna.
not one word.

today is a week, and seven is of heavens, gods, science. evident out my
kitchen window is an abstract reality. sky where once was steel. smoke
where once was flesh.

fire in the city air and i feared for my sister's life in a way never
before. and then, and now, i fear for the rest of us.

first, please god, let it be a mistake, the pilot's heart failed, the
plane's engine died. then please god, let it be a nightmare, wake me
now. please god, after the second plane, please, don't let it be anyone
who looks like my brothers.

i do not know how bad a life has to break in order to kill.
i have never been so hungry that i willed hunger
i have never been so angry as to want to control a gun over a pen. not
really. even as a woman, as a palestinian, as a broken human being.
never this broken.

more than ever, i believe there is no difference.
the most privileged nation, most americans do not know the difference
between indians, afghanis, syrians, muslims, sikhs, hindus. more than
ever, there is no difference.

2. thank you korea for kimchi and bibim bob, and corn tea and the
genteel smiles of the wait staff at wonjo the smiles never revealing the
heat of the food or how tired they must be working long midtown shifts.
thank you korea, for the belly craving that brought me into the city
late the night before and diverted my daily train ride into the world
trade center.

there are plenty of thank yous in ny right now. thank you for my lazy
procrastinating late ass. thank you to the germs that had me call in
sick. thank you, my attitude, you had me fired the week before. thank
you for the train that never came, the rude nyer who stole my cab going
downtown. thank you for the sense my mama gave me to run. thank you for
my legs, my eyes, my life.

3. the dead are called lost and their families hold up shaky printouts
in front of us through screens smoked up.

we are looking for iris, mother of three. please call with any
information. we are searching for priti, last seen on the 103rd floor.
she was talking to her husband on the phone and the line went. please
help us find george, also known as adel. his family is waiting for him
with his favorite meal. i am looking for my son, who was delivering
coffee. i am looking for my sister girl, she started her job on monday.

i am looking for peace. i am looking for mercy. i am looking for
evidence of compassion. any evidence of life. i am looking for life.

4. ricardo on the radio said in his accent thick as yuca, "i will feel
so much better when the first bombs drop over there. and my friends feel
the same way."

on my block, a woman was crying in a car parked and stranded in hurt. i
offered comfort, extended a hand she did not see before she said, "we"re
gonna burn them so bad, i swear, so bad." my hand went to my head and my
head went to the numbers within it of the dead iraqi children, the dead
in nicaragua. the dead in rwanda who had to vie with fake sport
wrestling for america's attention.

yet when people sent emails saying, this was bound to happen, lets not
forget u.s. transgressions, for half a second i felt resentful. hold up
with that, cause i live here, these are my friends and fam, and it could
have been me in those buildings, and we"re not bad people, do not
support america's bullying. can i just have a half second to feel bad?

if i can find through this exhaust people who were left behind to mourn
and to resist mass murder, i might be alright.

thank you to the woman who saw me brinking my cool and blinking back
tears. she opened her arms before she asked "do you want a hug?" a big
white woman, and her embrace was the kind only people with the warmth of
flesh can offer. i wasn't about to say no to any comfort. "my brother's
in the navy," i said. "and we"re arabs". "wow, you got double trouble."
word.

5. one more person ask me if i knew the hijackers.
one more motherfucker ask me what navy my brother is in.
one more person assume no arabs or muslims were killed.
one more person assume they know me, or that i represent a people. or
that a people represent an evil. or that evil is as simple as a flag and
words on a page.

we did not vilify all white men when mcveigh bombed oklahoma. america
did not give out his family's addresses or where he went to church. or
blame the bible or pat robertson.

and when the networks air footage of palestinians dancing in the street,
there is no apology that hungry children are bribed with sweets that
turn their teeth brown. that correspondents edit images. that archives
are there to facilitate lazy and inaccurate journalism.

and when we talk about holy books and hooded men and death, why do we
never mention the kkk?

if there are any people on earth who understand how new york is feeling
right now, they are in the west bank and the gaza strip.

6. today it is ten days. last night bush waged war on a man once openly
funded by the cia. i do not know who is responsible. read too many
books, know too many people to believe what i am told. i don't give a
fuck about bin laden. his vision of the world does not include me or
those i love. and petittions have been going around for years trying to
get the u.s. sponsored taliban out of power. shit is complicated, and i
don't know what to think.

but i know for sure who will pay.

in the world, it will be women, mostly colored and poor. women will have
to bury children, and support themselves through grief. "either you are
with us, or with the terrorists" - meaning keep your people under
control and your resistance censored. meaning we got the loot and the
nukes.

in america, it will be those amongst us who refuse blanket attacks on
the shivering. those of us who work toward social justice, in support of
civil liberties, in opposition to hateful foreign policies.

i have never felt less american and more new yorker, particularly
brooklyn, than these past days. the stars and stripes on all these cars
and apartment windows represent the dead as citizens first, not family
members, not lovers.

i feel like my skin is real thin, and that my eyes are only going to get
darker. the future holds little light.

my baby brother is a man now, and on alert, and praying five times a day
that the orders he will take in a few days time are righteous and will
not weigh his soul down from the afterlife he deserves.

both my brothers - my heart stops when i try to pray - not a beat to
disturb my fear. one a rock god, the other a sergeant, and both
palestinian, practicing muslim, gentle men. both born in brooklyn and
their faces are of the archetypal arab man, all eyelashes and nose and
beautiful color and stubborn hair.

what will their lives be like now?

over there is over here.

7. all day, across the river, the smell of burning rubber and limbs
floats through. the sirens have stopped now. the advertisers are back on
the air. the rescue workers are traumatized. the skyline is brought back
to human size. no longer taunting the gods with its height.

i have not cried at all while writing this. i cried when i saw those
buildings collapse on themselves like a broken heart. i have never owned
pain that needs to spread like that. and i cry daily that my brothers
return to our mother safe and whole.

there is no poetry in this. there are causes and effects. there are
symbols and ideologies. mad conspiracy here, and information we will
never know. there is death here, and there are promises of more.

there is life here. anyone reading this is breathing, maybe hurting, but
breathing for sure. and if there is any light to come, it will shine
from the eyes of those who look for peace and justice after the rubble
and rhetoric are cleared and the phoenix has risen.

affirm life.
affirm life.
we got to carry each other now.
you are either with life, or against it.
affirm life.




From dillon at icubed.com  Sun Oct 28 14:08:00 2001
From: dillon at icubed.com (dillon at icubed.com)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 14:08:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #511 - 1 msg
In-Reply-To: <200110281701.f9SH12D03101@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <200110281701.f9SH12D03101@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <a05100309b8020404b027@[204.215.204.71]>

LIVE AT THE EAR  CD

A compact disc compiled and edited from archives maintained by 
Charles Bernstein.  Poets:  Howe, Silliman, Scalapino, Greenwald, 
Waldrop, Davies, Watten, Hunt, Andrews, Weiner, McCaffery, 
Lauterbach, Bernstein.  This definitive audiotextual anthology is 
intended for libraries and collectors of rare literary material. 
Utmost techniques circa 1994 were employed by the leading sound 
engineer in the United States (Nick Charles) to recover, restore and 
digitally remaster the casette recordings into a continuous audio 
experience through the 13 selections.  Included is a booklet 
containing photos of each contributor plus textual selections and 
other useful material.

Cost:  $15.95 plus $4.00 S/H (Priority in USA) if ordered from (800) 240-6980.
Also available from Small Press Distribution in Berkeley, California, 
[www.spdbooks.com] or (510) 524-1668.






>Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to
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>than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..."
>
>
>Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Notes and musings  10/28 (Halvard Johnson)
>
>--__--__--
>
>Message: 1
>From: "Halvard Johnson" <halvard at earthlink.net>
>To: "Hamlet, The" <thehamlet at yahoogroups.com>,
>    "New-Poetry" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>,
>    "Cafe-blue" <CAFE-BLUE at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 11:57:53 -0500
>Subject: [New-Poetry] Notes and musings  10/28
>Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>
>Yesterday, Lynda and I walked downtown several blocks to the Ear Inn,
>which is on Spring Street, a block and a bit off West Street, which is famous
>now for its riverside run down to Ground Zero.
>
>Saturday-afternoon poetry readings have been a fixture at the Ear Inn for
>quite a few years now, and they go on all year round. Lynda and I have been
>to exactly two of these. Several years ago, we heard Hannah Weiner and
>Tina Darragh read there, but we think we actually went down to hear someone
>else, although we can't remember who it was. (Old age ain't for sissies, as
>John Gilgun says.)
>
>Yesterday,  Harriet Zinnes, an old friend of ours was reading, along with
>Bruce Andrews and Jeanne Lambert. Andrews, a pillar of the
>l=a=n=g=u=a=g=e school was up first, and read three delightfully rubble
>-ized poems of moderate length. Lambert, an MFA candidate at B'klyn
>College was next, and Harriet read last.
>
>Readings at the Ear Inn are held in the dining room at the back, behind
>the bar area. There's a half-wall between the bar (smoking allowed) and
>the restaurant (rauchen verboten), but the main difference between the
>bar and the restaurant is that the bar serves food with its drinks and the
>restaurant serves drinks with its food. When the two waitresses weren't
>busy they leaned against the bar and smoked. Cigarette and cigar smoke
>wafted gently from front to back.
>
>So, there were three readers, one emcee (Mike Broder), two waitresses,
>two cooks (in the little kitchen just off the dining room), twenty-one or
>-two listeners (four or five with Lambert, about three with Andrews, and
>five or six who'd some to hear Harriet). I'm not counting eavesdroppers
>up front in the bar. The waitresses didn't do much listening but made
>frequent trips back into the dining area to rip paper used for table
>coverings off a huge roll hung right by the door to the bathroom
>facilities (sign above door in English and Chinese: Mind Your Head).
>One of the cooks sometimes listened, leaning against the kitchen door,
>spatula in hand. Behind him, above the stove were two pin-tins heaped
>with pre-fried bacon. Up front, behind the bar, the bartender (George)
>seemed to be listening when he wasn't too busy. Andrews announced
>that his second poem was one he'd read at the Ear Inn twenty years
>before, and George announced that he had it on tape. (Andrews also
>managed to incorporate a loud bit of conversation between George
>and one of the waitresses into the poem he was reading--without
>missing a beat. Let the world into your poems, gang.)
>
>When the readings were over, the rock jazzy musak came on again,
>at maybe four times the decibels of the pre-reading time, during
>which Lynda and I were having our burgers. Ah, we thought, they're
>trying to drive us out. They want to make room for real drinkers.
>
>And so we said goodbye to Harriet and her daughter Alice, and
>started home, up along Washington Street, somewhat protected
>from the chill of the riverside. And down along Washington St.
>came a battalion of New York's finest, all in uniform, and all on
>NYPD motorcycles--a fine flurry of fuzz, let me tell you. It
>reminded me of last Sunday in Arizona, sitting in Jim's Outback,
>waiting for a gang/troop/motorcyclecade of bikers (beerguts and
>mamas and all) to pass by, while Jim searched his mental
>Roladex for alternate routes home. Only two of Arizona's finest
>that day--escorts fore and aft.
>
>Hal     "I would like the world to know that I
>            am a poet first and a would-be assassin last."
>                     --John W. Hinckley, Jr.
>Halvard Johnson
>===============
>email: halvard at earthlink.net
>website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
>
>
>
>--__--__--
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>End of New-Poetry Digest


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From spacks at snowcrest.net  Sun Oct 28 14:04:45 2001
From: spacks at snowcrest.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 11:04:45 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Palestinian Poet, Lannan Award
In-Reply-To: <11.1cc3c670.290da4e2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011028110445.007e96b0@snowcrest.net>

thanks, Terry, for an important post.

Barry
_____________________________________
At 01:13 PM 10/28/01 EST, you wrote:

>>David and Barry,

>Thanks for your interesting replies. David, you are correct that Sharon's 
>Dome of the Rock visit was the immediate provocation--or perhaps excuse--for 
>the intifada. The whole thing made me crazy at the time since the visit was 
>such a blatantly obvious provocation during this post-Camp David period--and 
>even more because the Palestinians so predictably took the bait almost 
>instantaneously, digging another hole for themselves, a skill set they have 
>perfected over many years. You hate to see predictable events happen and 
>dominoes fall like that and know there is nothing you can do about it.
>
>Fact is, though, this would have been a far less inflammatory environment
had 
>Arafat come home with a signed piece of paper from Camp David, which he, 
>foolishly, did not, holding out for the last 10% of his "demands" which 
>hardly qualifies as negotiation. My main point here is that neither Sharon's 
>provocation nor Arafat's refusal to get serious about a peace treaty has 
>anything whatsoever to do with American policy, which, whether the Clinton 
>flavor or the Bush flavor, has, at least since the mid-1970s, always 
>supported peace between these two entities. Unfortunately, as Barry 
>indicates, that will require some willingness on both sides to encase 5000 
>years of history in concrete and bury it. I am not optimistic, and I am not 
>sure what foreign policy will work as long as some parties remain on either 
>side whose sole aim in life is to keep the killing going.
>
>There is much that is intractable in the Middle East, much that the people 
>over there really have no intention of solving. The Isreali settlements are 
>an incredible obstacle on one hand. On the other, so is the fact that 
>Palestinians decorate their downtowns with huge color banners of their
latest 
>"martyrs," flacking them like pop stars and inspiring more young people to 
>aspire to this kind of posthumous fame instead of encouraging them to help 
>their own people by becoming productive members of society. It is a kind of 
>religious nihilism that is difficult for a Western mind to penetrate and a 
>hell of a stupid fate to hard-sell to young people. 
>
>Our main failure in foreign policy, in my mind, has been our short attention 
>span when it comes to follow-through, a natural consequence of the way our 
>society has been allowed  to and encouraged to evolve in the latter half of 
>the 20th century. From not helping Saddam's opposition to topple him after 
>the Gulf War, to simply picking up and going home after helping the 
>Afghanis--and bin Laden!--whittle down the Soviet invaders--leaving these 
>hapless people to anarchy and chaos that resulted in the Taliban--we tend to 
>just like to get back to our party after our immediate objectives are 
>accomplished. It is this that has to stop. It is this kind of tone-deafness 
>to the eventual and inevitable consequences of incomplete interventions that 
>is fatal and that makes enemies out of once-trusting allies. Whether we 
>should even be making these interventions at all is another topic for a 
>different kind of discussion board.
>
>Meanwhile, on the poetry front, which is sort of what kicked all these 
>discussions off, I was reminded by a backchannel correspondent of an 
>excellent book I should have mentioned. So, may I recommend an anthology of 
>Arab-American poets entitled "Grape Leaves," edited by one of the poets I 
>mentioned in a previous post, Greg Orfalea? My copy is, alas, in storage at 
>the moment, but I believe it was published by the Univ. of Colorado press 
>circa '89-90. I can't give you a better citation right now. It is an 
>intriguing and varied anthology with a wide variety of views and an 
>informative historical intro by the editors that really helps put things in 
>context. It is this type of volume, I think, that had ought to be winning 
>awards. I suspect, however, that only a select few poets and teachers have 
>ever read it. 
>
>--Terry Ponick
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


From spacks at snowcrest.net  Sun Oct 28 14:32:53 2001
From: spacks at snowcrest.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2001 11:32:53 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Palestinian Poet, Lannan Award
In-Reply-To: <000001c15fe1$71dffeb0$7541f6d1@aoidos>
References: <11.1cc3c670.290da4e2@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011028113253.007d15b0@snowcrest.net>

At 01:50 PM 10/28/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Here's a poem by Palestinian New Yorker Suheir Hammad called "first
>writing since."  Hammad is author of "Born Palestinian, Born Black."
>
>Erik Pihel
>pihel_e at pipeline.com
>

Incredibly powerful work -- says it all, humanly;
thanks for posting. Poetry can speak even of 
this, through a blessedly healthy soul.

B. Spacks
>********************************************************************
>
>1. there have been no words.
>i have not written one word.
>no poetry in the ashes south of canal street.
>no prose in the refrigerated trucks driving debris and dna.
>not one word.
>
>today is a week, and seven is of heavens, gods, science. evident out my
>kitchen window is an abstract reality. sky where once was steel. smoke
>where once was flesh.
>
>fire in the city air and i feared for my sister's life in a way never
>before. and then, and now, i fear for the rest of us.
>
>first, please god, let it be a mistake, the pilot's heart failed, the
>plane's engine died. then please god, let it be a nightmare, wake me
>now. please god, after the second plane, please, don't let it be anyone
>who looks like my brothers.
>
>i do not know how bad a life has to break in order to kill.
>i have never been so hungry that i willed hunger
>i have never been so angry as to want to control a gun over a pen. not
>really. even as a woman, as a palestinian, as a broken human being.
>never this broken.
>
>more than ever, i believe there is no difference.
>the most privileged nation, most americans do not know the difference
>between indians, afghanis, syrians, muslims, sikhs, hindus. more than
>ever, there is no difference.
>
>2. thank you korea for kimchi and bibim bob, and corn tea and the
>genteel smiles of the wait staff at wonjo the smiles never revealing the
>heat of the food or how tired they must be working long midtown shifts.
>thank you korea, for the belly craving that brought me into the city
>late the night before and diverted my daily train ride into the world
>trade center.
>
>there are plenty of thank yous in ny right now. thank you for my lazy
>procrastinating late ass. thank you to the germs that had me call in
>sick. thank you, my attitude, you had me fired the week before. thank
>you for the train that never came, the rude nyer who stole my cab going
>downtown. thank you for the sense my mama gave me to run. thank you for
>my legs, my eyes, my life.
>
>3. the dead are called lost and their families hold up shaky printouts
>in front of us through screens smoked up.
>
>we are looking for iris, mother of three. please call with any
>information. we are searching for priti, last seen on the 103rd floor.
>she was talking to her husband on the phone and the line went. please
>help us find george, also known as adel. his family is waiting for him
>with his favorite meal. i am looking for my son, who was delivering
>coffee. i am looking for my sister girl, she started her job on monday.
>
>i am looking for peace. i am looking for mercy. i am looking for
>evidence of compassion. any evidence of life. i am looking for life.
>
>4. ricardo on the radio said in his accent thick as yuca, "i will feel
>so much better when the first bombs drop over there. and my friends feel
>the same way."
>
>on my block, a woman was crying in a car parked and stranded in hurt. i
>offered comfort, extended a hand she did not see before she said, "we"re
>gonna burn them so bad, i swear, so bad." my hand went to my head and my
>head went to the numbers within it of the dead iraqi children, the dead
>in nicaragua. the dead in rwanda who had to vie with fake sport
>wrestling for america's attention.
>
>yet when people sent emails saying, this was bound to happen, lets not
>forget u.s. transgressions, for half a second i felt resentful. hold up
>with that, cause i live here, these are my friends and fam, and it could
>have been me in those buildings, and we"re not bad people, do not
>support america's bullying. can i just have a half second to feel bad?
>
>if i can find through this exhaust people who were left behind to mourn
>and to resist mass murder, i might be alright.
>
>thank you to the woman who saw me brinking my cool and blinking back
>tears. she opened her arms before she asked "do you want a hug?" a big
>white woman, and her embrace was the kind only people with the warmth of
>flesh can offer. i wasn't about to say no to any comfort. "my brother's
>in the navy," i said. "and we"re arabs". "wow, you got double trouble."
>word.
>
>5. one more person ask me if i knew the hijackers.
>one more motherfucker ask me what navy my brother is in.
>one more person assume no arabs or muslims were killed.
>one more person assume they know me, or that i represent a people. or
>that a people represent an evil. or that evil is as simple as a flag and
>words on a page.
>
>we did not vilify all white men when mcveigh bombed oklahoma. america
>did not give out his family's addresses or where he went to church. or
>blame the bible or pat robertson.
>
>and when the networks air footage of palestinians dancing in the street,
>there is no apology that hungry children are bribed with sweets that
>turn their teeth brown. that correspondents edit images. that archives
>are there to facilitate lazy and inaccurate journalism.
>
>and when we talk about holy books and hooded men and death, why do we
>never mention the kkk?
>
>if there are any people on earth who understand how new york is feeling
>right now, they are in the west bank and the gaza strip.
>
>6. today it is ten days. last night bush waged war on a man once openly
>funded by the cia. i do not know who is responsible. read too many
>books, know too many people to believe what i am told. i don't give a
>fuck about bin laden. his vision of the world does not include me or
>those i love. and petittions have been going around for years trying to
>get the u.s. sponsored taliban out of power. shit is complicated, and i
>don't know what to think.
>
>but i know for sure who will pay.
>
>in the world, it will be women, mostly colored and poor. women will have
>to bury children, and support themselves through grief. "either you are
>with us, or with the terrorists" - meaning keep your people under
>control and your resistance censored. meaning we got the loot and the
>nukes.
>
>in america, it will be those amongst us who refuse blanket attacks on
>the shivering. those of us who work toward social justice, in support of
>civil liberties, in opposition to hateful foreign policies.
>
>i have never felt less american and more new yorker, particularly
>brooklyn, than these past days. the stars and stripes on all these cars
>and apartment windows represent the dead as citizens first, not family
>members, not lovers.
>
>i feel like my skin is real thin, and that my eyes are only going to get
>darker. the future holds little light.
>
>my baby brother is a man now, and on alert, and praying five times a day
>that the orders he will take in a few days time are righteous and will
>not weigh his soul down from the afterlife he deserves.
>
>both my brothers - my heart stops when i try to pray - not a beat to
>disturb my fear. one a rock god, the other a sergeant, and both
>palestinian, practicing muslim, gentle men. both born in brooklyn and
>their faces are of the archetypal arab man, all eyelashes and nose and
>beautiful color and stubborn hair.
>
>what will their lives be like now?
>
>over there is over here.
>
>7. all day, across the river, the smell of burning rubber and limbs
>floats through. the sirens have stopped now. the advertisers are back on
>the air. the rescue workers are traumatized. the skyline is brought back
>to human size. no longer taunting the gods with its height.
>
>i have not cried at all while writing this. i cried when i saw those
>buildings collapse on themselves like a broken heart. i have never owned
>pain that needs to spread like that. and i cry daily that my brothers
>return to our mother safe and whole.
>
>there is no poetry in this. there are causes and effects. there are
>symbols and ideologies. mad conspiracy here, and information we will
>never know. there is death here, and there are promises of more.
>
>there is life here. anyone reading this is breathing, maybe hurting, but
>breathing for sure. and if there is any light to come, it will shine
>from the eyes of those who look for peace and justice after the rubble
>and rhetoric are cleared and the phoenix has risen.
>
>affirm life.
>affirm life.
>we got to carry each other now.
>you are either with life, or against it.
>affirm life.
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Oct 29 10:18:16 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:18:16 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Don't Blink Fiction?
Message-ID: <6b.1cc363c8.290ecd38@aol.com>

Alistair Fitchett, author if the Stride book YOUNG & FOOLISH, has just
launched
a website for 50 word fictions. Contributors thus far include David Lehman,
Ron
Palmer, Sheila Murphy, Peter Finch and others. If you want to contribute,
read
some, or find out more, visit www.fiftywords.co.uk.


From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Oct 29 10:39:31 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 10:39:31 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jack Kerouac School job posting
Message-ID: <e6.1d63aad2.290ed233@aol.com>

In a message dated 10/27/01 11:26:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com writes:

> "preffered"?  apparently spelling is not required.
Can't hang that typo on them...it's mine I'm afraid.
F


From JforJames at aol.com  Mon Oct 29 11:53:02 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 11:53:02 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Prose Poet Receives 2001 James Laughlin Award
Message-ID: <80.123e19b0.290ee36e@aol.com>

Peter Johnson Receives
2001 James Laughlin Award
$5,000 for a Second Book of Poems
 

New York, September 27, 2001--The Academy of American Poets announced today 
that Peter Johnson has been selected as the recipient of the 2001 James 
Laughlin Award for his second collection of poems, Miracles & Mortifications, 
which will be published in October by White Pine Press. Mr. Johnson will 
receive a cash prize of $5,000, and the Academy will purchase at least 10,000 
copies of Miracles & Mortifications for distribution to its members. Daniel 
Hall, Campbell McGrath, and Marilyn Nelson, the judges for this year's award, 
named four other second collections as finalists: Subterranean by Jill 
Bialosky (Alfred A. Knopf, Inc.); Darling by Honor Moore (Grove Press); The 
Finger Bone by Kevin Prufer (Carnegie Mellon University Press); and Bellocq's 
Ophelia by Natasha Trethewey (Graywolf Press).

On choosing the winning manuscript, head juror Marilyn Nelson wrote:

Prose poetry was born of a contradiction, and grew up on the tenuous vanguard 
of verse--in sense, sound, and above all, definition. Associated in most 
readers' minds with the great aesthetic experiments of Baudelaire, and with 
such modern masters as Russell Edson and Charles Simic, prose poetry has 
perhaps never before been written with such lovelorn and oedipal zaniness. 
Here, for the hip, disaffected, early twenty-first century reader, is a book 
that rollicks and romps, a book that rocks. Peter Johnson's Miracles & 
Mortifications is a fall through the rabbit hole into a weird and amusing 
alternative universe.

------sample prose poem-----
Barcelona

Moonlight softens the hardwood floor. A wind-blown, hundred-year-old dust 
ball scurries under the bed. And a fat black spider ? our love child ? 
awakens; its legs bloom, its web shimmers, like lace panties stretched 
tightly and held up to the sun. We are resting after a day of massaging my 
moods. ?Happy love has no history,? I whisper. But tonight that?s hard to 
believe. Annoyed by the chi-chi shops and capitalists speaking Catalonian 
into their cellular phones, we went to the cathedral to view St. Eulalia?s 
crypt. It was very quiet, and I told you I had no memories until the age of 
forty-one when I saw you step out of an elevator. Perhaps that?s why you are 
so quiet tonight, naked except for a collar of Majorcan pearls. ?If you come 
to Barcelona,? I would tell tourists, ?you will see this and you will 
discover that, and you will find my Gigi kneeling before the crypt of St. 
Eulalia. And you will think, Someone should tell their stories; someone 
should tell them they are beautiful.?


  Peter Johnson is editor of The Prose Poem: An International Journal. He 
teaches at Providence College in Rhode Island, where he resides with his wife 
Genevieve and son Kurt. His recent publications are: Pretty Happy!, a book of 
prose poems (White Pine, 1997); I'm a Man, winner of Raincrow Press' 1997 
Fiction Chapbook Contest; and Love Poems for the Millennium, a chapbook of 
prose poem (Quale Press, 1998). 

Author's Statement

"Barcelona" is from a recently completed chapbook called Love Poems for the 
Millennium. In these poems, an obsessive narrator chases his pathological 
girlfriend Gigi around the globe. Most of the poems are comic, parodying love 
poetry and travel literature. Barcelona is one of the more serious poems. The 
NEA will free up time for me to write another sequence of poems, which, added 
to the love poems, will comprise my next full book. In this new sequence, a 
father and son comically work out their Oedipal issues while traveling though 
time, cavorting with the likes of Nero, Attila the Hun, and many other 
historical figures, most of whom I have yet to think of. Consider this 
sequence to be the poetic and Freudian version of "Fractured Fairy Tales," 
that wonderful cartoon which appeared years ago on the Rocky and Bullwinkle 
Show.

Why am I a prose poet? Since I was trained in Latin and Greek by Jesuits, and 
have spent hours in high school and college scanning poems, I have often 
wondered why I don't write sonnets, or at least compose in blank verse. I 
could give a number of literary reasons for choosing the prose poem, and I 
could refer you to many fascinating quotations from poets and literary 
critics. But I am a prose poet for simpler reasons. I have a predisposition 
toward wandering in gray areas-call it an evil gene. In short, I am 
comfortable in this literary no man's zone; it provides me with the necessary 
space for my imagination to roam.

1999 Poetry Fellowship 


From roger at nenuphar.freeserve.co.uk  Mon Oct 29 14:32:18 2001
From: roger at nenuphar.freeserve.co.uk (roger  day)
Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 19:32:18 -0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Palestinian Poet, Lannan Award
References: <3.0.5.32.20011028110445.007e96b0@snowcrest.net>
Message-ID: <008201c160b0$6c616f80$97d487d9@BYRON>

How much does the US give Israel per year these days? This might give you a rough idea: http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=US+funding+Israel The unwillingness of the US government to leverage this money is always scary. Now -there's- a direct policy connection. No wonder some people tend to think of Israel as a de facto representative of the West in the Middle East.


From thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com  Tue Oct 30 08:01:15 2001
From: thebobcooperfor at hotmail.com (bob cooper)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 13:01:15 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Palestinian Poet, Lannan Award
Message-ID: <F56m1TlbRRu6arJfkpr00020651@hotmail.com>

This sidled onto my screen, having been sent via a work colleague. It seems 
to relate to the issue we?re exploring right now.
Tom Getman, who wrote it, has moved from the area he?s writing about to 
Geneva (so part of what he?s saying relates to the move and to how he?s 
coping with the transition) but his comments on the Palestinians, and the 
current actions of the Israeli army, are salutary reading. I sense they add 
a context to how we can read any Palestinian poet...
I don?t know the guy myself, I just get the impression that he?s an American 
who?s been a few places, seen a few things... and where he?s been, and what 
he?s seen, have touched him deeply.
I know it?s long but I often distrust edited texts (preferring to do my own 
editing as I read).
Bob Cooper


My dear Family and Friends: (& now youse lot too!)
So many words have been written in the last five weeks about terrorism, its 
damage physical and psychic , and the linkages of foreign policy cause and 
effect. It is all beyond the capacity of our languages and vocabularies to 
capture how our world has changed. I for one determined that silence was the 
best path for me during this period. Many others have written more 
eloquently than it was within me to do... and my sadness frankly put me in a 
nearly paralyzed state. Israeli novelist David Grossman said too that it has 
been hard for him to write "to get into a new story" because his "soul is 
alarmed" unable to enter into the usual movements and routines and instead 
he is questioning "why it has to take part in this process of 
self-destruction?" There are realities about which we have skimmed the 
surface before which we now of necessity are plumbing the depths as the 
alarm bells have been set off in our souls. This requires I am finding a new 
kind of reflection, community spirit, prayerfulness and deep healing. What 
each of us knows for sure is our own experience of where we were and how we 
are being touched by the ongoing events and their horrors, loss of life, and 
implications for how we live and move and have our being in the days we 
have. You, like Karen and me, have wrestled deeply with implications of the 
definitions of West/East, rich/poor, family/work...even 
liberation/terrorism. It is a painful, disruptive, wrenching, costly 
time...personally as well as for our global institutions and structures. War 
seems to me to be the least efficacious way to manage the pain, only one 
more admission of our brokenness and inability to cope with reality altering 
truths. Revenge certainly won't make it go away. Only more suffering will 
result as we have seen over and again in the desperate formerly holy land.

LEAVING PALESTINE FOR GENEVA
One of the hard things for us was that our departure from Palestine, dear 
friends, colleagues, and five years of work coincided with the seismic shift 
in the world order. The American Consul General Ron Schlicher graciously 
arranged to have a reception for us, with NGO and diplomat colleagues, at 
the American Consulate in Jerusalem for the evening of September 11! With 
the time change it was only a few hours after the events in New York and DC. 
He went ahead as planned and we found comfort with one another and the small 
group of brave friends who gathered in the "ground zero" of Jerusalem to 
ponder in new ways what our work and relationships mean. A poignant time as 
you can imagine. Our scheduled departure to Geneva was delayed several days 
because all foreign airlines cancelled flights to and from Tel Aviv. Now 
over a month later, after one trip back to hand-over the WV Jerusalem work 
to my successor, Dan Simmons formerly of Mercy Corps, I am settling into my 
new routines of work as the humanitarian affairs director for World Vision 
International...essentially having jumped from one frying pan into ten! 
Including participation on the WV Afghan Relief Crisis Management Team. My 
role is to interface with the United Nations, World Council of Churches and 
international nongovernmental agencies here. Karen is in the States for a 
month tending to family issues such as time with her ailing father, 
attention to our sons and other loved ones and their concerns, arranging for 
repairs on our rented home on Capitol Hill, and catching up with our support 
community of dearest long time friends. We have found a comfortable home in 
nearby Pregny/Chambesy near the UN Palais and our furniture arrives in the 
next 10 days. One more trip to Jerusalem is planned (in'shallah!) to do 
farewell gatherings for all the people we were unable to see before 
departure and to introduce the new director...and to inaugurate the new WV 
Jerusalem offices in the compound of the venerable Lutheran World Federation 
Augusta Victoria Hospital on the Mt of Olives...to increase the security for 
the staff and to cut costs.

PLEASE UPHOLD THOSE IN THE CRUCIBLE
Which leads me to encourage you to continue to uphold WV staff and others 
who you may know in Israel/Palestine. The situation is worse than at any 
time during my tenure or the previous 10 years of visiting there. Succinctly 
put...the Israeli government is using the smoke of the September 11 bombings 
and the aftermath in Afghanistan and in the anthrax scare in the States to 
do the most overt assassinations and acts of ethnic cleansing I ever 
witnessed. Much was made of the tragic and foolish killing of the Israeli 
Minister of Tourism Ze'evi...while little has been said about the 66 
Palestinian officials liquidated. Dan Simmons and I were in the Beit Jala 
neighborhood of Bethlehem on Sunday night when withering machine gun and 
tank fire was directed at innocent people in the streets and the ancient and 
holy Nativity Church, highly respected Catholic Bethlehem University, and 
the critical Holy Family maternity hospital run by the Knights of Malta. For 
those of you who have visited us this is the site of the Holy Family Creche 
where Sister Sophie so lovingly cares for more than 50 orphan, many 
unadoptable, infants and toddlers. Three tank shells crashed into the 
complex. The children were so traumatized they were vomiting. What can 
possess a human being to do, or a government to order, deliberate targeted 
damage to universities, hospitals and orphanages!? Three other area 
hospitals have been damaged as well and ambulances have been fired upon. 
There is hardly a water tank not punctured by Israeli bullets leaving 
Bethlehemites already short of water even more desperate. Friends who 
surveyed the damage around Bethlehem on Monday and Tuesday indicated that 
over $1 million of damage had already been done. Crushed cars are everywhere 
with the tell tale tank tracks on the rubble. With the dead mentioned in the 
appeal below from Hannan Ashrawi there are over 40 mostly Palestinian 
civilians, including "terrorist" children and a mother of 6 youngsters and 
another women in child birth, killed in the last week by rampaging Israeli 
soldiers. This ever harsher response is all in the face of President Bush's 
strong criticism and demand that the Israeli occupation army withdraw from 
Palestine. Prime Minister Sharon's spokesperson said "what we are doing is 
no different than the US attacking terrorists in Afghanistan". No matter 
what we may think of the massive intervention against the Taliban, what Mr. 
Gissan failed to mention was that Israel in contrast to the USA has been 
illegally occupying the country they are bombing for 34 years. The emotional 
damage on both sides will linger and fester for generations...which of 
course is something our "Jewish cousins", as the Palestinians call them, 
should understand. For those who love Bethlehem, or respect holy sites of 
any religion, it is beyond imagination what is happening. Over 100 machine 
gun bullets were found inside the Nativity Church. Thank God the mainstream 
newspapers seem to have gotten over their fear of being called anti-Semite 
and are reporting more accurately the mindless ethnic cleansing and 
collective punishment violations of international law. Several pieces are 
attached below if you haven't seen them. Along with an article I wrote for 
"The Christian Century". The article by Gideon Levy on "Ihab" is about a 
young man who was a World Vision Youth Ambassador who sang and played oud 
for our travelling choir at the Germany World's Fair last year. Hope School 
which he also mentions is a World Vision child sponsorship school. It is 
becoming increasingly clear...without an International Observer and 
Peacekeeping Force another Beirut type Sabra and Shatilla massacre is 
inevitable. Please do what you can to alert heretofore disbelieving public 
officials to the self-destructive and soul shattering behavior of the 
Israeli government. As Abraham Lincoln pointed out, "the best way to destroy 
an enemy is to make him your friend". Invasion of defenseless villages with 
tanks, helicopters, and hundreds of soldiers is not the way to build 
friendships and it appears that an international presence is necessary as a 
reminder.


THE PAIN OF TRANSITION - GLOBAL AND PERSONNEL Reflection # 61 by Tom Getman 
October 24, 2001


This also appeared as a footnote to his reflections:

-The Palestinian Initiative for the Promotion of Global Dialogue and 
Democracy (MIFTAH) Wednesday, October 24th, 2001 13:52 pm
URGENT APPEAL
Israeli Massacres Continue In light of the ongoing massacres being carried 
out by the Israeli army against various parts of the West Bank and the Gaza 
Strip, particularly in the West Bank villages of Beit Rima and Deir 
Ghassana, in which 10 Palestinians have been systematically killed since 
2:00 a.m. Wednesday, We are issuing this apppael in the hope that the 
international community will take immediate action to protect the captive 
Palestinian populations of these villages: Israeli massacres committed 
against the Palestinian people have been tragically met by international 
silence in the past. We strongly believe that the international community is 
legally and morally bound to intervene immediately in order to avoid another 
tragic event such as the 1982 massacre in Sabra and Shatilla, in which 
thousands of Palestinian refugees were massacred under the watchful eyes of 
General Ariel Sharon. A short while ago, it was confirmed that Sharon stated 
the Israeli army will withdraw from West Bank towns and villages once it has 
"completed its mission." This is alarming, taking into consideration 
Sharon's blood-tainted past in which thousands of Palestinians were 
systematiclly massacred upon his direct orders. What is Sharon's definition 
of "a complete mission?" The villages of Beit Rima and Deir Ghassana have 
been completely cut off from the rest of the world. Medical staff and media 
agencies are being denied access to these villages by the Israeli army, 
thereby leaving hundreds of Palestinian civilians helplessly subject to 
Israeli military brutality and systematic 'ethnic cleansing.' The Israeli 
government is blatantly violating the most basic human rights, with clear 
disregrad to the provisions of international law, particularly the 
'protection of civilians' as stipulated by the Fourth Geneva Convention of 
1949. Furthermore, the Israei army's denial of media and medical access to 
the villages is a serious violation of humanitarian law and press freedoms. 
-Representatives of the international community have a responsibility to 
protect the Palestinian people from the harsh military measures being 
carried out by Sharon's government. -The international community must not 
stand in silence while the Palestinian people are systematically massacred. 
-The international community must issue clear protest against the inhuman 
measures of Sharon's government, and implement tangible steps to stop the 
killing of civilians in the Palestinian territories. -The international 
community must realize that Sharon's government is bringing the already 
volatile situation in the occupied Palestinian territories to alarming 
depths, and dragging the entire region into the abyss of war. -The 
international community must constructively work to end Israel's illegal 
occupation of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.
For further information, please contact: Public Information Department 
MIFTAH Tel: +972-2-585 1842 www.miftah.org





_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp



From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Oct 30 19:22:34 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:22:34 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] MUDLARK FLASH NO. 14 (2001)
Message-ID: <9b.1d24a071.29109e4a@aol.com>

Date:    Tue, 30 Oct 2001 17:15:30 -0500
From:    William Slaughter <wrs at UNF.EDU>
Subject: Notice: Mudlark

MUDLARK FLASH NO. 14 (2001)

Frances Ruhlen McConnel | Three Poems

On Seeing on CNN that My Hometown of Oak Ridge, Tennessee,
May be the Most Polluted Community in America, I Cried Out in Protest;
Psalm; and We Dream of Heroes...

Frances Ruhlen McConnel is a poet and writer of short stories and creative
nonfiction. She teaches in the Creative Writing Department at the
University of California, Riverside. She lives in Claremont, California,
and her old stomping grounds include Oak Ridge, Tennessee, Anchorage,
Alaska, and Seattle, Washington, where she attended the University of
Washington. She has published one book of poetry: GATHERING LIGHT from
Pygmalion Press, and has another book, WOLF & BEAR, set to appear any day
from Alpha-Zed Press on the Web. She edited a collection of West Coast
Women's Poetry, ONE STEP CLOSER, also from the now defunct Pygmalion
Press. Recently her poems have appeared, or will be appearing, in THE
WILSHIRE REVIEW, SOLO, THE AMERICAN POETRY REVIEW, THE INTERNATIONAL
POETRY REVIEW, CRAB CREEK REVIEW, and SALT RIVER REVIEW. She is presently
working on an eccentric family memoir.

Spread the word. Far and wide,

William Slaughter

MUDLARK
An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics
Never in and never out of print...
E-mail: mudlark at unf.edu
URL: http://www.unf.edu/mudlark


From JforJames at aol.com  Tue Oct 30 19:34:42 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 19:34:42 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Clewell poem
Message-ID: <124.6a72609.2910a122@aol.com>

Desperate Measures
   
    Charles Bolton, aka Black Bart, robbed twenty-eight Wells Fargo 
stagecoaches,   often leaving a taunting verse in the plundered strongbox. 
Upon his release from   San Quentin, he assured the warden that his life of 
crime was over. Asked if he     was still going to write poetry, Bolton said, 
I repeat, sir. I am through with my life    of crime.

                             ? from "Black Bart, Shotgun Poet"
 



Part of me feels really bad about this, but I'm afraid
there's no turning back now. Here comes another no-account poem
that someone with nothing to lose is waving in your face, and it's time
to reach for the blue sky again. Sadly, there's no way of knowing
if the poem is actually loaded or not. It could be just a bar of soap
carved into the plausible shape of a poem, or a dime-store water pistol
knockoff of the real thing ? although history doesn't seem to favor
jumping to those reckless conclusions.
                                                           I say
better to play it safe. No one's going to get hurt today
if you listen carefully. Remember the cardinal rule the boss recited
on your first night of clerking at the Gas & Go: There's no arguing
with a poem. It's too easy to get messed up, and for what,
when you get right down to it? Give the guy with the poem
anything he asks for.
                                   Whatever you do, please don't misunderstand
what this is all about. I want the full attention of your life
right up to this nerve-wracking moment. Give me everything you've got.
Don't be caught dead on the business end of an extended metaphor.

This is what can happen when an unsuspecting public crosses over
into literature's high-crime neighborhood, although I'm guessing
you have at least some popgun verse of your own, holstered
conveniently within reach. These days, who isn't packing a version
of poetry heat? You wanted to feel the sensation of running, just once,
with the wrong crowd. Don't even think about it, if you know what's good.
I have bigger things still in my coat pocket ? a ballad
that doesn't know when to quit, or an epic in heroic couplets
that would absolutely blow you away. So don't go somehow thinking
the world needs your heroics, too.

                                                      Now, step away from 
this page, nice
and slow. There's no cause for alarm. You've stared down the dark
barrel of sawed-off inspiration long enough, and you're going to live
to tell about it. For all the good it does. As far as anyone else
is concerned, this whole thing never happened.
Later, you can file a report with the glassy-eyed desk cop
or your local community college professor. They're not about
to put a stop to any of this senseless poetry violence.
They've been on the take for years, paid to look the other way.
They need the small-time, good-for-nothing hoodlum likes of me:
I'm their business, and that's not saying much,
but it's a modest living for us all.

                                                 I can promise you this:
it won't be long until I'm giving myself up to the authorities again,
to anyone who'll listen, and as usual they'll have no idea what
in the world I'm talking about. That's why I need you out there.
That's why I'm letting you go. I'm telling you, word for adamant word,
what I told you the last time: I mostly work alone, so this has to be
the end of the line, where we take one last deep breath together
before making our separate tracks back into the silence,
each of us imagining what we just got away with, at least
for another few minutes, in the middle of our prosaic lives.



David Clewell
The Georgia Review
Volume LV, Number 2
Summer 2001



From moira_russell at hotmail.com  Tue Oct 30 19:58:08 2001
From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 15:58:08 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] Clewell poem
Message-ID: <F126gtopWd7KKQpQq5p0001df98@hotmail.com>

>Desperate Measures
>
>     Charles Bolton, aka Black Bart, robbed twenty-eight Wells Fargo
>stagecoaches,   often leaving a taunting verse in the plundered strongbox.
>Upon his release from   San Quentin, he assured the warden that his life of
>crime was over. Asked if he     was still going to write poetry, Bolton 
>said,
>I repeat, sir. I am through with my life    of crime.

I hate to sound curmudgeonly, but poems which attempt to grab me by the 
collar and harangue me about how inconsequential poetry is don't....well, 
grab me, really.  Also, this seems awfully, awfully long.  Surely he could 
have compacted it into two or three pithy humorous stanzas ("no way to tell 
whether or not a poem is really loaded" was nice, I thought).  As it is, the 
conceit gets dragged out over a sea of print.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

_________________________________________________________________
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From jdavis at panix.com  Tue Oct 30 20:19:02 2001
From: jdavis at panix.com (Jordan Davis)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 20:19:02 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] if you're in nyc...
In-Reply-To: <156.317f1b2.290c7374@aol.com>
Message-ID: <B804BBB6.2CF8%jdavis@panix.com>

It would be nice ..

Two readings in the smoke - 10/31 7 pm Cornelia St Cafe and 11/5 7:30 pm KGB
Bar - details follow .. to see you there

Jordan Davis / Eric Gamalinda / Johnny Lorenz
will read their poems
@ Cornelia Street Cafe (near 6th Ave and Bleecker)
29 Cornelia Street, NYC 10014 P: (212)989-9319 F: (212) 243-4207
October 31, 2001 WEDNESDAY! TOMORRA!
7 PM


November 5 Jordan Davis & Jeni Olin

KGB Bar 
Mondays at 7:30 p.m.
in the red room 
85 East 4th Street (near Second Avenue)
NYC 
212.505.3360 
Free! 




From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Tue Oct 30 21:04:36 2001
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole)
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2001 21:04:36 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Clewell poem
References: <F126gtopWd7KKQpQq5p0001df98@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <001401c161b0$7651df60$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

I'd disagree with Moira, for what's probably the best reason for two poetry
lovers to disagree...no arguments over schools or ideologies, just over
pleasure, which Clewell does sustain for me -- and I see him as constantly
teasing back and forth between inconsequentiality and consequence.

I've always liked this balance in Clewell's poetry, and the humor with which
he spins it out.

  Tad Richards                       "Well said, old mole."
    The Old Mole                         Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet
    of the MoleNet                          Act I, Scene 5
          http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
----- Original Message -----
From: "Moira Russell" <moira_russell at hotmail.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Clewell poem


>
> >Desperate Measures
> >
> >     Charles Bolton, aka Black Bart, robbed twenty-eight Wells Fargo
> >stagecoaches,   often leaving a taunting verse in the plundered
strongbox.
> >Upon his release from   San Quentin, he assured the warden that his life
of
> >crime was over. Asked if he     was still going to write poetry, Bolton
> >said,
> >I repeat, sir. I am through with my life    of crime.
>
> I hate to sound curmudgeonly, but poems which attempt to grab me by the
> collar and harangue me about how inconsequential poetry is don't....well,
> grab me, really.  Also, this seems awfully, awfully long.  Surely he could
> have compacted it into two or three pithy humorous stanzas ("no way to
tell
> whether or not a poem is really loaded" was nice, I thought).  As it is,
the
> conceit gets dragged out over a sea of print.
>
> Moira Russell
> Seattle, WA
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Oct 31 10:29:57 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:29:57 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Clewell poem
Message-ID: <f.1d1a39d1.291172f5@aol.com>

Tad & Moira,
Clewell's poetry is often an elaborated riffing on its subject 
or theme...many times the subject is based on an obscure 
figure or some odd event in history/cultural lore. Part of the 
charm, which is also part curse, is seeing him twist & turn 
phrase after phrase with his easygoing vernacular diction.
I've always admired how Clewell can make work 
those common phrases that other poets would be 
well advised: "Don't be caught dead" with...&, sure, 
sometimes he just "doesn't know when to quit." 
Finnegan


From GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU  Wed Oct 31 10:59:29 2001
From: GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU (Graham, David)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:59:29 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE:  Clewell poem
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDFC5@mail.ripon.edu>

I'd add one thing to the Clewell discussion.  He's a very powerful public
reader, and I suspect that part of his style as it's evolved comes from
that--his poems almost always read aloud better than they sit on the page.
A certain amount of repetitiveness & lack of concision is not only OK in an
oral mode, but sometimes desired.   

I got a little bored reading the poem "Desperate Measures" as its single
simple joke spun on and on (poem=gun).  But I can imagine enjoying the poem
just fine at a reading.

David Graham

===================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
===================

> ----------
> From: 	JforJames at aol.com
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Wednesday, October 31, 2001 9:29 AM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] Clewell poem
> 
> Tad & Moira,
> Clewell's poetry is often an elaborated riffing on its subject 
> or theme...many times the subject is based on an obscure 
> figure or some odd event in history/cultural lore. Part of the 
> charm, which is also part curse, is seeing him twist & turn 
> phrase after phrase with his easygoing vernacular diction.
> I've always admired how Clewell can make work 
> those common phrases that other poets would be 
> well advised: "Don't be caught dead" with...&, sure, 
> sometimes he just "doesn't know when to quit." 
> Finnegan
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 


From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Oct 31 11:07:23 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:07:23 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Halloween poem
Message-ID: <f8.11d38df2.29117bbb@aol.com>

Dark Tower

    After George Gordon, Lord 
    Byron, the revolutionary
    democrat and lover of 
    Greece, 1788-1824.

The swamp around the tower was alive
with animals and was an animal itself.
Everybody looked at everybody; things
felt out things until it was Resolved:
Who is the strongest. Then the animals
attacked, ran, or fawned; the swamp
held up its tracks and let them drop.
The old black keep which I approached
past fawning animals on solid bog
was no more awful than a broken tooth
except for the man who has it. I knocked
to test his nerve and stake my claim
to what is mine by nature, his by name.


by Alan Dugan
from Poems 4


From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 31 11:24:39 2001
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:24:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE:  Clewell poem
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDFC5@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGECAEEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

Clewell's name is a new one to me. Did I miss a poem of his that
someone posted? If not, would someone please post one or two?

Thanks.

Hal              Please stand clear of the closing doors.                                    

Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html
 
> I'd add one thing to the Clewell discussion.  He's a very powerful public
> reader, and I suspect that part of his style as it's evolved comes from
> that--his poems almost always read aloud better than they sit on the page.
> A certain amount of repetitiveness & lack of concision is not only OK in an
> oral mode, but sometimes desired.   
> 
> I got a little bored reading the poem "Desperate Measures" as its single
> simple joke spun on and on (poem=gun).  But I can imagine enjoying the poem
> just fine at a reading.
> 
> David Graham
> 
> ===================
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> ===================
> 
> > ----------
> > From: 	JforJames at aol.com
> > Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > Sent: 	Wednesday, October 31, 2001 9:29 AM
> > To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] Clewell poem
> > 
> > Tad & Moira,
> > Clewell's poetry is often an elaborated riffing on its subject 
> > or theme...many times the subject is based on an obscure 
> > figure or some odd event in history/cultural lore. Part of the 
> > charm, which is also part curse, is seeing him twist & turn 
> > phrase after phrase with his easygoing vernacular diction.
> > I've always admired how Clewell can make work 
> > those common phrases that other poets would be 
> > well advised: "Don't be caught dead" with...&, sure, 
> > sometimes he just "doesn't know when to quit." 
> > Finnegan
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> > 
> > 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 


From GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU  Wed Oct 31 11:42:01 2001
From: GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU (Graham, David)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:42:01 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Clewell poem
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDFC6@mail.ripon.edu>

Clewell was featured on Poetry Daily this past Sunday.  His poem "Desperate
Measures" is the one we're talking about:

http://www.poems.com/despecle.htm

Here's another DC poem:

RADIO

Sunday nights the ancient Philco carries him away.
Familiar stations disappear in the air
and he can pull in towns he's only heard of.
Tonight, Susan Someone in Poughkeepsie
naming her best lovers, the whole city of Cheyenne
sending out tunes to the Hammerhead
deep in his haul to Aberdeen.  The mayor's up late
in Sandusky taking questions from people with dogs.
Buoyed by the weather report in Tacoma
he rattles off the names of the entire Gashouse Gang
but the Pontiac goes to some kid who's only close.

It's a night of strange connections:
flying saucers, mutant strains of VD,
the threat of war and celebrity birthdays
and now the gospel man
who lives at the top of his lungs.
For the hell of it he joins the radio in prayer.
He imagines someone plugging the soda machine
and all the cans fall out like Christmas,
halfhearted cheers going up in the lobby
as the movie burns through television snow
and just when he's getting to the really good part
the preacher turns into Mel Torme and
forget about the blood of the lamb,
would you like to swing on a star?
--David Clewell

===================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
===================

> ----------
> From: 	Halvard Johnson
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Wednesday, October 31, 2001 10:24 AM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	RE: [New-Poetry] RE:  Clewell poem
> 
> Clewell's name is a new one to me. Did I miss a poem of his that
> someone posted? If not, would someone please post one or two?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Hal              Please stand clear of the closing doors.
> 
> 
> Halvard Johnson
> ===============
> 


From spacks at snowcrest.net  Wed Oct 31 13:08:49 2001
From: spacks at snowcrest.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 10:08:49 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Clewell poem
In-Reply-To: <f.1d1a39d1.291172f5@aol.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011031100849.007ea100@snowcrest.net>

At 10:29 AM 10/31/01 EST, Finnegan wrote:
>sometimes he just "doesn't know when to quit." 

no where near enough riffing 
to float so long a boat

B.
*****
Tad & Moira,
Clewell's poetry is often an elaborated riffing on its subject 
or theme...many times the subject is based on an obscure 
figure or some odd event in history/cultural lore. Part of the 
charm, which is also part curse, is seeing him twist & turn 
phrase after phrase with his easygoing vernacular diction.
I've always admired how Clewell can make work 
those common phrases that other poets would be 
well advised: "Don't be caught dead" with...&, sure, 
sometimes he just "doesn't know when to quit." 
Finnegan





From moira_russell at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 31 13:12:40 2001
From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 09:12:40 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] Clewell poem
Message-ID: <F21897BqgFoFnC6XcL4000014b9@hotmail.com>

I agree with David that repetition and riffing can come over delightfully in 
oral performances and not work quite so well on the page (this reminds me of 
Samuel R. Delany's anecdote about a teacher who told wonderful stories to 
his class, and then dictated them into a tape machine and realized the 
typed-up versions were awful).  However, I've got to question how these 
repetitions, etc., which can be liabilities on the printed page, are going 
to seem to someone who has never heard the poet in question, is not likely 
to hear him and doesn't know anything about how compelling he is in 
performance (someone like me, in short!).  In that case, I'd have to say the 
poem needs to stand or fail on its own, and the lengthiness, diffuseness and 
repetitions make it fail for me.  I've heard that the dashes in Emily 
Dickinson's poetry may represent dramatic pauses when she read them out to 
her sister, but her poems work whether you know that or not -- the dashes 
work sufficiently well both in performance (if that story's true) and in 
being read silently on the page.

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

"We work in the dark--we do what we can--we give what we have. Our doubt is 
our passion, and our passion is our task. The rest is the madness of art." 
-- Henry James





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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed Oct 31 02:41:01 2001
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 01:41:01 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins article
Message-ID: <B805072D.1F87%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

There's an interesting, debunking article on Billy Collins in The New
Republic On-line. Here's the link and a sample paragraph.

Paul Lake


"This, too, is bowing down before the concrete and the ordinary. But there
is nothing dialectical about Collins's love of trivia; it is precisely the
lack of difficulty, the loss of mentality, that appeals to him in the role
of stenographer. It is not the luminosity of the homely, but its homeliness,
that he celebrates. The clematis and the bricks are not the occasion of
epiphany; they are simply there, "things you would expect to find." All the
poet has to do is affirm that, indeed, they are there; to write down what
happens to happen, "an unpaid but contented amanuensis." The quality of
Collins's attention is not mystically intense, but breezily journalistic.
With such a conception of poetry, it is no wonder that any past poet who has
striven for a high degree of tension, in mind and language, looks like a
fool."

http://www.thenewrepublic.com/102901/kirsch102901.html



From Jholmes at boisestate.edu  Wed Oct 31 14:24:35 2001
From: Jholmes at boisestate.edu (Janet Holmes)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:24:35 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Clewell, usurper
Message-ID: <sbdfed88.028@bsu.boisestate.edu>

Since Clewell's poem mistakenly ran on Sunday instead of my own poem, I'm going to take it as a compliment that you logged on specifically to look at Poetry Daily. (My own poem appeared Monday the 29th, which was "his" day.)



From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Wed Oct 31 14:26:04 2001
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 14:26:04 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins article
Message-ID: <9c.1584e0d4.2911aa4c@cs.com>

In a message dated 10/31/01 12:54:39 PM Central Standard Time, 
paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes:


> There's an interesting, debunking article on Billy Collins in The New
> Republic On-line. Here's the link and a sample paragraph.
> 
> 

Reading this, I am reminded of how much Collins resembles Frank O'Hara.  
Well, charm hath its charms.  I am going to hear Collins read next Monday 
(Houston) and am looking forward to it.
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From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu  Wed Oct 31 03:35:48 2001
From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 02:35:48 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Clewell, usurper
In-Reply-To: <sbdfed88.028@bsu.boisestate.edu>
Message-ID: <B8051404.1F8C%paul.lake@mail.atu.edu>

on 10/31/01 1:24 PM, Janet Holmes at Jholmes at boisestate.edu wrote:

> Since Clewell's poem mistakenly ran on Sunday instead of my own poem, I'm
> going to take it as a compliment that you logged on specifically to look at
> Poetry Daily. (My own poem appeared Monday the 29th, which was "his" day.)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
I spotted your poem, Janet. It was in several numbered parts--but I can't
remember the title.
Paul



From jdavis at panix.com  Wed Oct 31 15:09:52 2001
From: jdavis at panix.com (Jordan Davis)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 15:09:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins article
In-Reply-To: <9c.1584e0d4.2911aa4c@cs.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.40.0110311506510.15104-100000@panix3.panix.com>

Uncalled for and inapt! Like saying Home Alone reminds you of The 400
Blows.

Jordan Davis


On Wed, 31 Oct 2001 Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote:

> In a message dated 10/31/01 12:54:39 PM Central Standard Time,
> paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes:
>
>
> > There's an interesting, debunking article on Billy Collins in The New
> > Republic On-line. Here's the link and a sample paragraph.
> >
> >
>
> Reading this, I am reminded of how much Collins resembles Frank O'Hara.
> Well, charm hath its charms.  I am going to hear Collins read next Monday
> (Houston) and am looking forward to it.
>



From GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU  Wed Oct 31 15:27:43 2001
From: GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU (Graham, David)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 14:27:43 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE:  Clewell, usurper
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDFCA@mail.ripon.edu>

I read both poems, as it happens, Janet, but didn't remember which appeared
when.    

In any case, we don't get to hear the word "usurper" enough, I feel... .

And everyone should make sure to go look at Janet's mighty interesting
"Partch Stations":

http://www.poems.com/partchol.htm

David Graham

===================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
===================

> ----------
> From: 	Janet Holmes
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Wednesday, October 31, 2001 1:24 PM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	[New-Poetry] Clewell, usurper
> 
> Since Clewell's poem mistakenly ran on Sunday instead of my own poem, I'm
> going to take it as a compliment that you logged on specifically to look
> at Poetry Daily. (My own poem appeared Monday the 29th, which was "his"
> day.)
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 


From GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU  Wed Oct 31 15:38:52 2001
From: GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU (Graham, David)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 14:38:52 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Collins article
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDFCB@mail.ripon.edu>

Ah, me.  We can't seem to go more than a few days without some Billybashing,
can we?  It's the fate of the popular poet, I guess.

In fact, I think comparing Collins to O'Hara is quite apt.  I heard David
Lehman and Billy Collins on a panel a few years back, talking about the New
York Poets--until then, I hadn't made the connection, myself.  But the more
I thought about Collins & O'Hara, the more I saw similarities.  Both are
poets of unabashed delight in culture high & low; both are highly allusive;
both are funny; both tend toward the talky in their styles; both are highly
personal, even idiosyncratic, without being particularly intimate or
confessional; both take delight in celebration and description of the
ordinary; both are highly bookish without being turgid or solemn; both are
accused of being intellectual lightweights. . . . etc.

Doesn't surprise me in the slightest that Adam Kirsch doesn't like Collins.
He's not likely to have much positive to say about Koch or O'Hara, either.
Beats me why lovers of O'Hara wouldn't like Billy, though. . . .

David Graham
===================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
===================

> ----------
> From: 	Jordan Davis
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Wednesday, October 31, 2001 2:09 PM
> To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] Collins article
> 
> Uncalled for and inapt! Like saying Home Alone reminds you of The 400
> Blows.
> 
> Jordan Davis
> 
> 
> 
> >
> > Reading this, I am reminded of how much Collins resembles Frank O'Hara.
> > Well, charm hath its charms.  I am going to hear Collins read next
> Monday
> > (Houston) and am looking forward to it.
> >
> 
> 


From moira_russell at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 31 15:50:18 2001
From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:50:18 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Clewell, usurper
Message-ID: <F923ygP5q9uFIXdWuOn0000e49d@hotmail.com>

I thought the Kirsch article was interesting, but finally the rhetoric he 
was directing at Collins was far too heated to convince me Collins alone was 
its target.  I'm not that crazy about Collins (for me, a little of his 
poetry goes a long way) but the review seems oddly spun up in certain 
places.  Kirsch's first-paragraph swipe that Collins' "ideal reader" is 
"well-educated and well-read, probably an English major, maybe even an 
M.F.A." blossoms into this:

"So what Collins is really expressing is a discomfort peculiar to the 
educated: a guilty impatience with the demands of culture. They have read 
Wordsworth, probably in college; they have an ingrained sense that 
literature is worthy; but they do not have the time and the patience for a 
genuine encounter with a work of art. Poems such as "Tintern Abbey" exert a 
pressure and make a demand, which we are often unable to meet; they expose 
our distractedness and our triviality. The guilt of such a failure can be 
dealt with in two ways: it can be acknowledged as legitimate, and spur us to 
more serious reading in the future; or it can be illegitimately turned back 
on the work of art that induced it. Collins's irony at Wordsworth's expense 
is such an act of self-defense."

Kirsch's ire here seems to come from Collins' apparent debunking of "Tintern 
Abbey" ("this is the poet Collins addresses as a mere whiner, a "fellow" who 
complains of not feeling "chipper") without realizing that Collins' point 
might be not only how far _physically_ he is from Tintern Abbey but how far 
emotionally he also is from the poem "Tintern Abbey."  But the paragraph 
above seems to speak more to someone utterly disaffectd with modern students 
-- They don't love what I love, and I can't get them to love it, so they 
have failed and turn impatiently away to grotesque parodies of what I love, 
Kirsch seems to be saying.  I think the kindest thing to say about this 
paragraph is that it looks like an extreme case of projection.  The sentence 
"What makes it objectionable in Billy Collins's poetry is that the target of 
his belittling, deadpan, superior humor is not only popular culture, but 
high culture, especially poetry" is revealing -- belittle pop culture all 
you want, because it's just meaningless.  Little squibs about Victoria's 
Secret catalogues are fine, even if the reviewer will dismiss them in the 
end.  But mess with Wordsworth, and boy, you're in trouble.

I think a good illustration of how Collins doesn't actually match Kirsch's 
straw-figure of him is in the following analysis of "The Death of Allegory":

I am wondering what became of all those
tall abstractions
that used to pose, robed and statuesque, in paintings
and parade about on the pages of the Renaissance
displaying their capital letters like license
plates....
They are all retired now, consigned to a Florida for tropes.
Justice is there standing by an open refrigerator.
Valor lies in bed listening to the rain....

Even if you called them back, there are no places left
for them to go, no Garden of Mirth or Bower of Bliss.
The Valley of Forgiveness is lined with condominiums
and chain saws are howling in the Forest of Despair.

Here on the table near the window is
a vase of peonies
and next to it black binoculars and a money clip,
exactly the kind of thing we now prefer,
objects that sit quietly on a line in lower case,

themselves and nothing more, a wheelbarrow,
an empty mailbox, a razor blade resting in a glass ashtray....

"In Collins's poem, this history and this challenge are drained of tension 
and urgency, and reduced to another chunk of irony. Allegorical figures such 
as Truth and Valor are just "capital letters" like those found on license 
plates: mere typographical conventions. Once they "paraded about" in an 
unforgivable display of conceit, but now they are safely ridiculous, 
"standing by an open refrigerator" in an old-age home. Our littleness is 
assuaged by "objects that sit quietly on a line in lower case," which mean 
nothing larger than themselves; we can even pride ourselves on our realism. 
Again, Collins is out to assure us that we need not take the past and its 
ambitions too seriously."

I at least read this poem as nearly opposite that -- as Kirsch himself 
points out, part of Collins' donnee, or poetic schtick, or whatever, is to 
imagine Valor lying in bed, or a town composed entirely of his past students 
where "the D's honk at other D's as they drive by."  Kirsch also seems to 
completely miss the point that the last few lines contain a description, if 
not entirely a critique, of modernism:  Williams' wheelbarrow, an empty 
mailbox (I'm not sure if that refers to a particular poem), the razor in the 
ashtray from Lowell's "The Drinker."  The description of these objects, 
resonant for anyone familiar with modernism, seems quiet, nearly wistful.  
But because Collins isn't Eliot, he isn't qualified to comment on allegory 
-- which unfortunately makes Kirsch wind up looking as though he just 
doesn't have a sense of humor, or can't stand jokes which seem directed at 
things he loves, like Eliot and allegory.

A lot of what I read about Collins shows much more about his critics than 
anything about him.  People can't stand him because he's popular, people 
can't stand him because he's too educated but can't appreciate real culture, 
people can't stand him because he's too happy and well-fed, people hate it 
if he's compared to a "real" poet like Robert Frost or Frank O'Hara -- what 
does all of this say about us, and is there anything out there which 
actually discusses Collins, and not the reviewer's reaction to him?

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA


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From moira_russell at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 31 15:55:08 2001
From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 11:55:08 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Collins article
Message-ID: <F136vANfny9r40j7YUz0001f4d0@hotmail.com>

David Graham wrote:

But the more
>I thought about Collins & O'Hara, the more I saw similarities.  Both are 
>poets of unabashed delight in culture high & low; both are highly allusive; 
>both are funny; both tend toward the talky in their styles; both are highly 
>personal, even idiosyncratic, without being particularly intimate or 
>confessional; both take delight in celebration and description of the 
>ordinary; both are highly bookish without being turgid or solemn; both are 
>accused of being intellectual lightweights. . . . etc.

I thought something like this, but was wary of saying it, especially since I 
don't know that much about either poet.  But Sam's comment did make me think 
there is a sort of similar register the two poets share. They also have a 
similar sense of line line, which is drawn out as if to imitate someone 
actually digressing off a point in regular speech. If I were going to speak 
straight out, I would say that people might get upset because Frank O'Hara 
is considered high culture and Collins is obviously not;  a lot of the 
"Billybashing" I see seems concerned with portraying him as low, mundane, 
sort of funny, earthly, contented, like Rod McKuen only worse because after 
all we don't have to take McKuen _really_ seriously no matter how many books 
of poetry he sells.  You have to wonder what the reaction would be to 
Collins if he hadn't been appointed Poet Laureate, especially hard on the 
heels of Kunitz, etc. ....

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

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From Henry_Gould at brown.edu  Wed Oct 31 16:04:27 2001
From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 16:04:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Clewell, usurper
In-Reply-To: <F923ygP5q9uFIXdWuOn0000e49d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011031155907.00a97a50@postoffice.brown.edu>

This issue of people loving/hating popular & accessible poets has less to 
do with the particular
poet in question than with what the readers themselves need & are looking 
for.  The poetry that
interests me successfully eludes its readership.  It generates spooky 
action-at-a-distance.

Collins = "Nadsonism"

Henry


********************************************************
HG afloat:  www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html
www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark
    "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam




From jdavis at panix.com  Wed Oct 31 16:19:33 2001
From: jdavis at panix.com (Jordan Davis)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 16:19:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Collins article
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDFCB@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.40.0110311608100.15027-100000@panix2.panix.com>

> ordinary; both are highly bookish without being turgid or solemn; both are
> accused of being intellectual lightweights. . . . etc.
>
> Doesn't surprise me in the slightest that Adam Kirsch doesn't like Collins.
> He's not likely to have much positive to say about Koch or O'Hara, either.
> Beats me why lovers of O'Hara wouldn't like Billy, though. . . .

That's patent nonsense - show me the credentials and the writing samples
of anyone accusing O'Hara of being an intellectual lightweight.

Hirsch's line about tension really hit the mark. As usual, I've overstated
my case. But I can only think, David, that if you see similarities between
O'Hara and Collins, then you've read O'Hara only as charitably as I've
read Collins, and it is time to go back and look again.

Since I can't think of any redeeming qualities of Home Alone (and I can
think of a few of Collins' work) let me restate that comparison: it's like
comparing Woody Allen's Sweet and Lowdown to Fellini's La Strada - yes,
there's a talented mute actress in each, yes, there's a talented brutish
actor in each, and after all, there are much worse things to do than pay
modest homage to the greats. But one's a B+ and one's an A+, and life is
short.

Aloha,
Jordan



From jpl3 at lehigh.edu  Wed Oct 31 16:26:51 2001
From: jpl3 at lehigh.edu (Joe Lucia)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 16:26:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Clewell, usurper
References: <4.3.2.7.2.20011031155907.00a97a50@postoffice.brown.edu>
Message-ID: <3BE06C9B.81B6CAA7@lehigh.edu>

Henry Gould wrote:

> Collins = "Nadsonism"

   What the heck is Nadsonism?  Inquiring minds want to know.
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From spacks at snowcrest.net  Wed Oct 31 16:29:56 2001
From: spacks at snowcrest.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 13:29:56 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Clewell, usurper
In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20011031155907.00a97a50@postoffice.brown.edu>
References: <F923ygP5q9uFIXdWuOn0000e49d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011031132956.007e7e70@snowcrest.net>

At 04:04 PM 10/31/01 -0500, Henry wrote:
>Collins = "Nadsonism"

huh?

(the poetry I love instructs & delights
by wit, irony, wisdom & invention,
especially by invention)

Collins = instruction/delight/wit/irony/wisdom
	& invention, especially invention 

(obscurity & self-indulgence are often
oh woe passed off as profundity & art)

In sooth, I wax weary of the now often self-serving
bashing of such a lively-minded, creatively generous
& large-hearted fellow as Collins (or, to be more
available -- a good thing, "available," viz: Wordsworth --
I wax sad.

(but maybe "Nadsomism" is a term of PRAISE?
-- say it is, Henry, say it is, please)

B.


From moira_russell at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 31 16:29:02 2001
From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 12:29:02 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Clewell, usurper
Message-ID: <F77SOJl6byoxxSQWBLY00015c47@hotmail.com>

>Collins = "Nadsonism"

And Nadsonism is what?

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp



From halvard at earthlink.net  Wed Oct 31 16:30:04 2001
From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 16:30:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Clewell, usurper
In-Reply-To: <F923ygP5q9uFIXdWuOn0000e49d@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <KOECIOJIGMDEJAEGDFJEGECFEEAA.halvard@earthlink.net>

> I'm not that crazy about Collins (for me, a little of his 
> poetry goes a long way) 

I'd say the same about Kirsch's critiques, Moira, though now I'll
have to dig out the Collins piece.

Hal          "Way down the deserted street, I thought I saw
                a bus which, with luck, might get me out of this
                sentence . . . "
                                 --Rosmarie Waldrop
Halvard Johnson
===============
email: halvard at earthlink.net
website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html




From GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU  Wed Oct 31 16:35:18 2001
From: GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU (Graham, David)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 15:35:18 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins & O'Hara
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDFCC@mail.ripon.edu>

Maybe the word I was looking for was "whimsy."  There's a streak a mile wide
in both O'Hara & Collins.  And don't deny it, Jordan, or you'll force me to
type out "Autobiographia Literaria" and "Poem (Lana Turner Has Collapsed)."

But in your rampant Billybashing, don't attribute opinions to me that I
didn't express.  As a matter of fact, I *like* O'Hara's work, whimsy & all.
That was the point of my comparing him to Collins, not to degrade O'Hara's
work, which I read very charitably indeed.  

Neither poet is John Milton, thank God, but they're both poets I turn to
when I need an antidote to bardic solemnity.  And they're more alike than
not, I continue to believe.  Yes of course there are some significant
differences.  Collins is less uneven, for one thing; he has never published
as much truly bad stuff as O'Hara did.  Nor is Collins ever deliberately or
cavalierly incomprehensible, as O'Hara too often is, for my taste.  And
while O'Hara's untidiness can be one of his charms, it's a charm that I
don't have infinite thirst for.  

David Graham
===================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
===================

> ----------
> From: 	Jordan Davis
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Wednesday, October 31, 2001 3:19 PM
> To: 	'new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu'
> Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] RE: Collins article
> 
> > ordinary; both are highly bookish without being turgid or solemn; both
> are
> > accused of being intellectual lightweights. . . . etc.
> >
> > Doesn't surprise me in the slightest that Adam Kirsch doesn't like
> Collins.
> > He's not likely to have much positive to say about Koch or O'Hara,
> either.
> > Beats me why lovers of O'Hara wouldn't like Billy, though. . . .
> 
> That's patent nonsense - show me the credentials and the writing samples
> of anyone accusing O'Hara of being an intellectual lightweight.
> 
> Hirsch's line about tension really hit the mark. As usual, I've overstated
> my case. But I can only think, David, that if you see similarities between
> O'Hara and Collins, then you've read O'Hara only as charitably as I've
> read Collins, and it is time to go back and look again.
> 
> Since I can't think of any redeeming qualities of Home Alone (and I can
> think of a few of Collins' work) let me restate that comparison: it's like
> comparing Woody Allen's Sweet and Lowdown to Fellini's La Strada - yes,
> there's a talented mute actress in each, yes, there's a talented brutish
> actor in each, and after all, there are much worse things to do than pay
> modest homage to the greats. But one's a B+ and one's an A+, and life is
> short.
> 
> Aloha,
> Jordan
> 
> 


From rlong at jcws.net  Wed Oct 31 16:58:14 2001
From: rlong at jcws.net (Richard Long)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 15:58:14 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Addition to 2River Chapbook Series
Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011031155703.02353eb8@pop3.slu.edu>

2River today released its latest addition to the 2River Chapbook Series, 
the Gospel according to Thomas, a cycle of poems by kris kahn, in which he 
explores the paradoxical intimacy that comes with loss. You can read it by 
going to http://www.2River.org where you'll see a link to the chapbook.

Richard Long

======
2River
rlong at 2River.org
http://www.2River.org
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From jdavis at panix.com  Wed Oct 31 17:05:10 2001
From: jdavis at panix.com (Jordan Davis)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 17:05:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins & O'Hara
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDFCC@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.40.0110311659020.25380-100000@panix2.panix.com>

The word you're looking for is camp. I don't happen to see it to the
extent some critics (Bruce Boone?) do, but I know it isn't whimsy. I can't
speak to your characterizations of O'Hara's work as deliberately or
cavalierly incomprehensible - I can only assume we each have differing
knowledge of the contexts of different poems, and I *know* one of us has
more of a rampant weakness for modernist interiority.

O'Hara's publication and reception history is pretty complicated,
actually. Many of his anthology pieces didn't see ink and paper until
the Collected - as I'm sure is true of many of the pieces you're
eschewing.

Your use of the word "Billybashing" is shocking and beneath you. But I
still like ya, Dave.

Jordan


On Wed, 31 Oct 2001, Graham, David wrote:

> Maybe the word I was looking for was "whimsy."  There's a streak a mile wide
> in both O'Hara & Collins.  And don't deny it, Jordan, or you'll force me to
> type out "Autobiographia Literaria" and "Poem (Lana Turner Has Collapsed)."
>
> But in your rampant Billybashing, don't attribute opinions to me that I
> didn't express.  As a matter of fact, I *like* O'Hara's work, whimsy & all.
> That was the point of my comparing him to Collins, not to degrade O'Hara's
> work, which I read very charitably indeed.
>
> Neither poet is John Milton, thank God, but they're both poets I turn to
> when I need an antidote to bardic solemnity.  And they're more alike than
> not, I continue to believe.  Yes of course there are some significant
> differences.  Collins is less uneven, for one thing; he has never published
> as much truly bad stuff as O'Hara did.  Nor is Collins ever deliberately or
> cavalierly incomprehensible, as O'Hara too often is, for my taste.  And
> while O'Hara's untidiness can be one of his charms, it's a charm that I
> don't have infinite thirst for.
>
> David Graham
> ===================
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> ===================
>
> > ----------
> > From: 	Jordan Davis
> > Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > Sent: 	Wednesday, October 31, 2001 3:19 PM
> > To: 	'new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu'
> > Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] RE: Collins article
> >
> > > ordinary; both are highly bookish without being turgid or solemn; both
> > are
> > > accused of being intellectual lightweights. . . . etc.
> > >
> > > Doesn't surprise me in the slightest that Adam Kirsch doesn't like
> > Collins.
> > > He's not likely to have much positive to say about Koch or O'Hara,
> > either.
> > > Beats me why lovers of O'Hara wouldn't like Billy, though. . . .
> >
> > That's patent nonsense - show me the credentials and the writing samples
> > of anyone accusing O'Hara of being an intellectual lightweight.
> >
> > Hirsch's line about tension really hit the mark. As usual, I've overstated
> > my case. But I can only think, David, that if you see similarities between
> > O'Hara and Collins, then you've read O'Hara only as charitably as I've
> > read Collins, and it is time to go back and look again.
> >
> > Since I can't think of any redeeming qualities of Home Alone (and I can
> > think of a few of Collins' work) let me restate that comparison: it's like
> > comparing Woody Allen's Sweet and Lowdown to Fellini's La Strada - yes,
> > there's a talented mute actress in each, yes, there's a talented brutish
> > actor in each, and after all, there are much worse things to do than pay
> > modest homage to the greats. But one's a B+ and one's an A+, and life is
> > short.
> >
> > Aloha,
> > Jordan
> >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



From JforJames at aol.com  Wed Oct 31 17:52:00 2001
From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 17:52:00 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins & O'Hara
Message-ID: <3b.1c87e8fe.2911da90@aol.com>

I think there are more similarities between Clewell and
Collins than between Collins and O'Hara. As David Graham
remarked, both O'Hara & Collins both have mile-wide whimsical 
streaks., but Collins' work is much more about controlling the 
reader's attention with shapely lines and engaging wit, usually
employing a wry point of view as he addresses his chosen 
subject (see "Forgetfulness"); O'Hara on the other hand 
is all about happenstance and discovery...the found poem
unbound. To my mind, O'Hara is the definitely the deeper poet....
primarily due to his unbridled engagement with life and the lives
that people his poems. Something about Collins' poetry gives 
me the impression he's detached and content to choreograph
the poem thru its lovely dance. O'Hara just does the dance,
even if he doesn't know the steps or can't always hit the right 
marks. & O'Hara doesn't seem to care if the poem ends up 
somewhat disheveled.
Finnegan


From GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU  Wed Oct 31 18:07:14 2001
From: GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU (Graham, David)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 17:07:14 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins & O'Hara
Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDFCD@mail.ripon.edu>

OK, here are our choices:

Camp ("something so outrageously artificial, affected, inappropriate, or
out-of-date as to be considered amusing") or whimsy ("fanciful or fantastic
device, object, or creation esp. in writing or art")?  

Let the ages decide:

Poem

Lana Turner has collapsed!
I was trotting along and suddenly
it started raining and snowing
and you said it was hailing
but hailing hits you on the head
hard so it was really snowing and
raining and I was in such a hurry
to meet you but the traffic
was acting exactly like the sky
and suddenly I see a headline
LANA TURNER HAS COLLAPSED!
there is no snow in Hollywood
there is no rain in California
I have been to lots of parties
and acted perfectly disgraceful
but I never actually collapsed
oh Lana Turner we love you get up
--Frank O'Hara
__________________________

Jordan, I'm going to have to plead irreconcilable difference, and bow out of
this particular teapot tempest.  Nice to learn I could still be considered
shocking, though.  I've been to lots of parties and acted perfectly
disgraceful, but no one has ever called me shocking before.  That did make
my day. . . .  

David

===================
David Graham
grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
===================

> ----------
> From: 	Jordan Davis
> Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Sent: 	Wednesday, October 31, 2001 4:05 PM
> To: 	'new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu'
> Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] Collins & O'Hara
> 
> The word you're looking for is camp. I don't happen to see it to the
> extent some critics (Bruce Boone?) do, but I know it isn't whimsy. I can't
> speak to your characterizations of O'Hara's work as deliberately or
> cavalierly incomprehensible - I can only assume we each have differing
> knowledge of the contexts of different poems, and I *know* one of us has
> more of a rampant weakness for modernist interiority.
> 
> O'Hara's publication and reception history is pretty complicated,
> actually. Many of his anthology pieces didn't see ink and paper until
> the Collected - as I'm sure is true of many of the pieces you're
> eschewing.
> 
> Your use of the word "Billybashing" is shocking and beneath you. But I
> still like ya, Dave.
> 
> Jordan
> 
> 


From spacks at snowcrest.net  Wed Oct 31 18:41:06 2001
From: spacks at snowcrest.net (Barry Spacks)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 15:41:06 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins & O'Hara
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDFCD@mail.ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011031154106.007d66a0@snowcrest.net>

At 05:07 PM 10/31/01 -0600 Finnegan wrote:

>To my mind, O'Hara is the definitely the deeper poet....

(but we can keep both, right?)

Auden, to a fellow during a Q&A who asked for a rating of
favorite poets in order of quality, importance, depth, etc.:

	"Young Man, it is not a horse race."

B.


From moira_russell at hotmail.com  Wed Oct 31 19:01:18 2001
From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 15:01:18 -0900
Subject: [New-Poetry] temporarily signing off
Message-ID: <F31HtMFaukyCKDkb9pP00019ad2@hotmail.com>

Unfortunately, my job's speeded up to a nearly frenetic pace recently, and 
despite the Collins/O'Hara bout which seems to be on the horizon, I'll have 
to temporarily sign off and return in 2-3 weeks (if not a big longer).  See 
you then!

Moira Russell
Seattle, WA

_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp



From DICK at watson.ibm.com  Wed Oct 31 18:56:08 2001
From: DICK at watson.ibm.com (DICK at watson.ibm.com)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 01 18:56:08 EST
Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins review
Message-ID: <200111010004.fA104tM157482@sp1n189at0.watson.ibm.com>

Adam Kirsch is precocious but he writes too quickly.  His
review in NR, referred to by Paul Lake, is full of extended
discussion of why his (Kirsch's) shallow reading of Collins'
poems indicate shallowness of Collins.  His discussion of
"Schoolsville" is an example, of "Victoria's Secret" is another,
both of which have layers of irony of which Kirsch has no clue.

Regarding the discussion of "Tintern Abbey," Kirsch should
consider the difference between Wordsworth's milieu and
Collins', what it meant for Wordsworth to write then, and for
us to read that writing now.

Sam, I think you'll enjoy Billy Collins' reading.  He reads
beautifully, coolly, with every inflection and stress
correctly placed.

Richard


From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Oct 31 19:32:39 2001
From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 19:32:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins & O'Hara
References: <3.0.5.32.20011031154106.007d66a0@snowcrest.net>
Message-ID: <3BE09827.3A4D@nut-n-but.net>

Barry Spacks wrote:
> 
> At 05:07 PM 10/31/01 -0600 Finnegan wrote:
> 
> >To my mind, O'Hara is the definitely the deeper poet....
> 
> (but we can keep both, right?)
> 
> Auden, to a fellow during a Q&A who asked for a rating of
> favorite poets in order of quality, importance, depth, etc.:
> 
>         "Young Man, it is not a horse race."
> 
> B.

Then how is it that some poets get in all the anthologies and others
do not?

                         --Bob G.



From tadrichards at prodigy.net  Wed Oct 31 20:39:32 2001
From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 20:39:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins review
References: <200111010004.fA104tM157482@sp1n189at0.watson.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <00bc01c16276$0f0a97e0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com>

I have a probably unfortunate fondness for essays about poetry; I read them
avidly. But I could not get through Kirsch on Collins.


  Tad Richards                       "Well said, old mole."
    The Old Mole                         Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet
    of the MoleNet                          Act I, Scene 5
          http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards
----- Original Message -----
From: <DICK at watson.ibm.com>
To: <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 6:56 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins review


> Adam Kirsch is precocious but he writes too quickly.  His
> review in NR, referred to by Paul Lake, is full of extended
> discussion of why his (Kirsch's) shallow reading of Collins'
> poems indicate shallowness of Collins.  His discussion of
> "Schoolsville" is an example, of "Victoria's Secret" is another,
> both of which have layers of irony of which Kirsch has no clue.
>
> Regarding the discussion of "Tintern Abbey," Kirsch should
> consider the difference between Wordsworth's milieu and
> Collins', what it meant for Wordsworth to write then, and for
> us to read that writing now.
>
> Sam, I think you'll enjoy Billy Collins' reading.  He reads
> beautifully, coolly, with every inflection and stress
> correctly placed.
>
> Richard
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu  Wed Oct 31 22:30:04 2001
From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (Michael Magee)
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 22:30:04 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins & O'Hara
In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDFCD@mail.ripon.edu> from "Graham, David" at Oct 31, 2001 05:07:14 pm
Message-ID: <200111010330.WAA23643@dept.english.upenn.edu>

David, Jordan, all,

While I think it's perfectly reasonable to talk about O'Hara's Lana Turner
poem as camp (or in relation to Pop Art, or, hell, to enjoy it "straight"
so to speak) I think it's maybe not worthwhile, or at least misleading, to
use a poem like this as example when the question is whether O'Hara
resembles Billy Collins - he doesn't, not in the least.  Wade even a few
pages into the Collected Poems and you'll quickly be disabused of any
sense of their similarity.  I mean, a poem like "In Memory of My Feelings"
is so complex, so allusive (while also being wildly spontaneous), surely
it is anti-Collins if there ever was such a thing.  Breezy is about the
last adjective I'd use to describe it - having just taught it, I'd say
it's as difficult as the toughest Modernist poem you'd care to name -
"Auroras of Autumn," "Wasteland" (maybe not "A" or "The Cantos" but *not*
easy).  I don't make this point to prop up O'Hara, necessarily, just to
argue, strenuously, against the comparison.

-m.

 According to Graham, David: >
> OK, here are our choices: > 
> Camp ("something so outrageously artificial, affected, inappropriate, or
> out-of-date as to be considered amusing") or whimsy ("fanciful or fantastic
> device, object, or creation esp. in writing or art")?  
> 
> Let the ages decide:
> 
> Poem
> 
> Lana Turner has collapsed!
> I was trotting along and suddenly
> it started raining and snowing
> and you said it was hailing
> but hailing hits you on the head
> hard so it was really snowing and
> raining and I was in such a hurry
> to meet you but the traffic
> was acting exactly like the sky
> and suddenly I see a headline
> LANA TURNER HAS COLLAPSED!
> there is no snow in Hollywood
> there is no rain in California
> I have been to lots of parties
> and acted perfectly disgraceful
> but I never actually collapsed
> oh Lana Turner we love you get up
> --Frank O'Hara
> __________________________
> 
> Jordan, I'm going to have to plead irreconcilable difference, and bow out of
> this particular teapot tempest.  Nice to learn I could still be considered
> shocking, though.  I've been to lots of parties and acted perfectly
> disgraceful, but no one has ever called me shocking before.  That did make
> my day. . . .  
> 
> David
> 
> ===================
> David Graham
> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu
> ===================
> 
> > ----------
> > From: 	Jordan Davis
> > Reply To: 	new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > Sent: 	Wednesday, October 31, 2001 4:05 PM
> > To: 	'new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu'
> > Subject: 	Re: [New-Poetry] Collins & O'Hara
> > 
> > The word you're looking for is camp. I don't happen to see it to the
> > extent some critics (Bruce Boone?) do, but I know it isn't whimsy. I can't
> > speak to your characterizations of O'Hara's work as deliberately or
> > cavalierly incomprehensible - I can only assume we each have differing
> > knowledge of the contexts of different poems, and I *know* one of us has
> > more of a rampant weakness for modernist interiority.
> > 
> > O'Hara's publication and reception history is pretty complicated,
> > actually. Many of his anthology pieces didn't see ink and paper until
> > the Collected - as I'm sure is true of many of the pieces you're
> > eschewing.
> > 
> > Your use of the word "Billybashing" is shocking and beneath you. But I
> > still like ya, Dave.
> > 
> > Jordan
> > 
> > 
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