From Edward.Byrne Tue May 1 01:09:22 2001 From: Edward.Byrne (Edward Byrne) Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 00:09:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why does contemporary American poetry suck? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David, The essay appears in _Touchstones: American Poets on a Favorite Poem_, edited by Robert Pack and Jay Parini. Like you, I am not sure I wholeheartedly support Lea's view even though I admit it has much merit. Instead, I like the idea of someone coming along, a Tiger Woods of poetry, who represents the highest level of accomplishment one can admire, a figure to inspire all with the kind of work others aspire to attain. --Ed > Edward, Where does this essay by Sydney Lea appear? > > I'm not sure I can entirely endorse the sentiments he expresses, myself > (perhaps lingering elitism in my soul?). But I would agree that one > thing that consistently seems to be ignored or downplayed in the > discussion of poetry's supposed glut and decline in our era is the > degree to which aesthetic options have proliferated since WWII, as > previously unheard voices began to sound more loudly within the > canonical groves. > > Whether you're talking book sales, the lack of consensus on who's major, > the many competing aesthetics, the phenomenon of regional "fame," the > growth of non-academic poetical activity such as slams, or any number of > other issues, poetry's trend toward democratization must be dealt with. > > In this regard, the poverty of imagination in a critic like Harold > Bloom is really stunning, I think. He has no ears for so many > different kinds of contemporary poetry (especially those based in the > oral tradition) that his particular brand of elitism just seems > ludicrous. > > David Graham > ______________________ > > > > >This evening I was reading an essay on Keats by Sydney Lea and came > >across the following that seems an appropriate response for this thread > >in which some have quoted critics lamenting that nowadays there are so > >many poets, but unlike the Modern era, few yet recognized as major: > > > >"Ours is a poetic era often sneered at for producing so many poets but > >so few great ones. If, however, a progressively democratic spirit is > >to attend the unfolding of human history (and I for one must believe it > >will, so that I can remain a hopeful man), can't we conceive of our era > >as the excellent one forecast by Keats in his letter to [John] > >Reynolds?" > > > >[Keats wrote of his vision of a future era: "...Humanity instead of > >being a wide heath of Furse and Briars with here and there a remote Oak > >or Pine, would become a grand democracy of Forest Trees."] > > > >Lea concludes: "Can't we conceive of the world as one in which a > >_collective_ expression of beauty will offer the vision to sustain us? > >Can't we take heart from the many kinds of voice that are chanting > >their way into the so-called canon?" > > > >--Edward Byrne > > -------------------------------------------------- Edward Byrne Department of English 322 Huegli Hall Valparaiso University Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/ Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/ Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 Fax: (219) 464-5511 -------------------------------------------------- From BobGrumman Tue May 1 05:45:24 2001 From: BobGrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 05:45:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why does contemporary American poetry suck? References: <3AEBF26F.70BF@nut-n-but.net> <002e01c0d0ab$2b513060$3c19fea9@kozaitis> <3AEC3DBE.331B@nut-n-but.net> <009a01c0d0d1$ea41d8a0$3c19fea9@kozaitis> <3AEC58FE.3C9A@nut-n-but.net> <004c01c0d106$45278240$3c19fea9@kozaitis> Message-ID: <3AEE85B4.2C7B@nut-n-but.net> Anastasios: I think the question underlying this discussion is how much ought a poet compromise his inner vision due to external influences? The latter would include money, certainly, but also all kinds of other things, some of them stronger with some than money, like simply being liked--by one's family and friends and/or by the world at large. Or a desire for presige, which might lead one to write against one's "true self" to AVOID money, because to do so would gain one prestige with Important People. I would go on to say that compromising one's inner vision is unavoidable and, much of the time, good since a main purpose of poetry, I would think, should be to communicate one's vision, and to do that you have to make it more palatable, among other things. An obvious example is changing a poem that makes sense to you but which others find obscure so that it can be understood by others. One might do this under the pressure of wanting to make tenure, or directly for money, or only to win the favorable attention of some friend--or various combinations, always, I would hope, including simply meeting the challenge of going beyond solipsism. Another example would be avoiding or mitigating a blasphemy one would really like to pull of because one's cousins are very religious. In all such cases, the external influence can be corrupting, as you fear economic influences are, but I think they can also be beneficial, can work toward improving one's poetry. Even money. As for the latter, it's hard for me to say too much about because it has so little to do with my practice as a poet, or with that of the poets I know. We're just too far out of the loop for it to be meaningful-- there's no way we could change our poems to make money (that we know of). Final opinion on the topic is that I feel it to be part of the definition of a poet that he is a person who will find a way to be sufficiently true to himself regardless of any baleful influence such as the economic ones that concern you. Only a poet who wouldn't have done anything of consequence in the art can be corrupted by money, as far as I'm concerned. Oh, one more thought: about poets having a better understanding of economics, fine, but life is short, and there's so much to know that seems to me more important to the creation of poetry. Ditto politics. As for any specific economic knowledge that would help one make money as a poet, I'd love to have it, and have tried to acquire it, but believe it something I'll never be able to figure out. --Bob G. From JforJames Tue May 1 09:07:19 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 09:07:19 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Ondaatje poem Message-ID: <3d.b0ad88c.28200f07@aol.com> Subj: April 30: Michael Ondaatje Date: 4/30/01 11:02:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: webmaster at randomhouse.com Reply-to: knopfwebmaster at randomhouse.com To: JforJames at aol.com A poem by Michael Ondaatje, from THE CINNAMON PEELER The Cinnamon Peeler If I were a cinnamon peeler I would ride your bed and leave the yellow bark dust on your pillow. Your breasts and shoulders would reek you could never walk through markets without the profession of my fingers floating over you. The blind would stumble certain of whom they approached though you might bathe under rain gutters, monsoon. Here on the upper thigh at this smooth pasture neighbour to your hair or the crease that cuts your back. This ankle. You will be known among strangers as the cinnamon peeler's wife. I could hardly glance at you before marriage never touch you --your keen nosed mother, your rough brothers. I buried my hands in saffron, disguised them over smoking tar, helped the honey gatherers . . . When we swam once I touched you in water and our bodies remained free, you could hold me and be blind of smell. You climbed the bank and said this is how you touch other women the grass cutter's wife, the lime burner's daughter. And you searched your arms for the missing perfume and knew what good is it to be the lime burner's daughter left with no trace as if not spoken to in the act of love as if wounded without the pleasure of a scar. You touched your belly to my hands in the dry air and said I am the cinnamon peeler's wife. Smell me. Copyright (c) 1989 by Michael Ondaatje From jdavis Tue May 1 09:18:05 2001 From: jdavis (Jordan Davis) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 09:18:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Ondaatje poem In-Reply-To: <3d.b0ad88c.28200f07@aol.com> Message-ID: "Smell me"??? Three gacks. Jordan From jdavis Tue May 1 09:20:58 2001 From: jdavis (Jordan Davis) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 09:20:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] epic tasks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >That said, Kirsch's poem leads me to believe he was handed a template, a > >hierarchy of acceptable projects for epics. > > Would be genuinely interested in whatever might have made you think that -- > I didn't get much from his poem, except a certain stiff glumness. I wondered > what other people thought of it, too (Jim's "Gack!" was certainly vivid). The incredible literariness of it. Writing according to received ideas of grandeur. The sound combinations weren't terrible - but > Whaling and mercantilism? This isn't Melville, is it? Close - but Melville's epic poem is about, um, the Holy Land. I was thinking of Ye Maximus Poems. Jordan Davis From JforJames Tue May 1 09:27:11 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 09:27:11 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Cate Marvin Message-ID: <90.1396c883.282013af@aol.com> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Sarabande Books Announces the August 2001 Publication of Worlds Tallest Disaster, Poems by Cate Marvin Winner of the 2000 Kathryn A. Morton Prize in Poetry featured page on our Sarabande Website at www.sarabandebooks.org. Thanks! Excerpt from Cate Marvin's World's Tallest Disaster READER, PLEASE You didn't light my cigarette. Offered your lighter so I could light it myself. Recall the white room I took you to when you could not breathe? Reader, please, it's called chivalry. Five years you've lived since that night and you won't offer a flame? You lay purple in the emergency room, stuttering on the syllable of your name. To think I actually prayed. When the blood drained from your face, you rose new and strange, a white flower. Your leaving felt like atrocity. I should not have said it. Yes, you, as one loves a saint. Let us speak of that other night, how the moon struck the sky with its sickle and we lay as two halves in a decrepit hotel room in New France, let us order some more whiskey. Reader, it was the funniest thing- after you left I stood in the parking lot, leaned back against a parked car, smoking. Reader, they called security. A uniformed man appeared in the doorway. The light from his flashlight traveled over me-exposed, derelict. He approached me cautiously, Ma'am, are you a guest here? I nodded soberly, though the whole night shook me till I was so dizzy I laughed. Your eyes are like hands dipped in blue paint, they grab and grab. Sometimes, reader, I wish they'd taken me away, right there and then. Violently passionate and firmly symmetrical, like tango or the blues, these poemsat firstare about sexual passion. . . . But in the tradition of love poetry, these poems dont stop with love. They move from eros to imagination. Or they thrash between the two. . . . This is an encouraging book in the context of American poetrys fashions or factions, because it evades categories. [Marvins] is an urgent as well as an artful voice. From the Foreword by Robert Pinsky Cate Marvin's unswerving subject is how, as men and women, we afflict each other and ourselves. Her poems craftily destroy romantic stereotypes and speak back to the disasters we create. They speak with an anquished irony, enraged lyricism, and a dark hope. There is something both very old and very new in this brash, canny, and utterly authentic book. Edward Hirsch The "bittersweet Eros"--as another poet calls him--speaks here again, this time through Cate Marvin's poems, and does so in a fresh, beautiful, convincing way. Adam Zagajewski Cate Marvin uses language the way a gymnast uses her body; she is a formalist who has thoroughly learned the pleasures and gains of abandon. But it is her excursions into wild image and passionate song that win the readers heart. The heart is central in Worlds Tallest Disaster, which is essentially a book of love poems--love lost and found, love requited, love abandoned and betrayed. What Cate Marvin has done in her remarkably assured and powerful first collection is to remind us in fresh terms of the news that stays news: that our desire is Not a sea of longing,// but the brack of wanting whats physical/ to help us forget we are physical. Cate Marvin, author of Worlds Tallest Disaster (Sarabande Books, 2001), was born in Washington, D.C. She received her B.A. from Marlboro College in Vermont, and holds two M.F.A.s: one from the University of Houston in poetry, the other from the Iowa Writers Workshop in fiction. She has been awarded scholarships to attend both Bread Loaf and Sewanee Writers Conferences. Her poems have appeared in such magazines as New England Review, The Antioch Review, The Paris Review, The Georgia Review, and Ploughshares, among others. She is lives in Cincinnati, Ohio, and is currently a Ph.D. candidate in English at the university there. Worlds Tallest Disaster is the thirty-eighth title to be published by Sarabande Books, a nonprofit literary press headquartered in Louisville, Kentucky. Since the 1996 debut of the press, Sarabande Books titles have received positive review attention from nationally distinguished media including The New York Times Book Review, Publishers Weekly, Kirkus Reviews, American Book Review, Small Press, The Nation, and Library Journal. This book was funded in part by a grant from the Kentucky Arts Council, a state agency of the Education, Arts and Humanities Cabinet. Title: Worlds Tallest Disaster Author: Cate Marvin ISBN: 1-889330-61-2 (paper) 1-899330-60-4 (cloth) Price: $12.95 (paper) $20.95 (cloth) Trim: 6 x 9 Marketing Information: Author tour in Ohio, Kentucky, and NYC Brochure and postcard mailings to MFA Programs, Bookstores, Libraries, and Marvins personal contacts. Advertisements in key literary and trade magazines Featured title in Sarabande Catalog and Newsletter For additional information or to request a review copy, please contact: Nickole Brown Sarabande Books 2234 Dundee Road, Suite 200 Louisville, KY 40205 Phone: (502) 458-4028 Fax: (502) 458-4065 E-mail: SarabandeB at aol.com Please visit our Website! www.SarabandeBooks.org From JforJames Tue May 1 09:50:45 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 09:50:45 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Ondaatje poem Message-ID: > "Smell me"??? Three gacks. > > Jordan so I guess you're not interested in Knopf's special promotional scratch-n-sniff broadside? Finnegan From JforJames Tue May 1 09:53:05 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 09:53:05 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Sugar Mule -- Call for manuscripts Message-ID: Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 20:38:50 +0100 From: M L Weber Subject: Sugar Mule -- Call for manuscripts (correction) In past issues, Sugar Mule has published: Paul Hoover, Pierre Joris, Lance Olsen, M. L. Weber, Kate Lila Wheeler, Ray Ronci, John Williams, Michael Heller, Jeremy J. Huffman, Linda Bohe, Mark Amerika, Jane Augustine, Michael Coffey, Jana Hays, Bob Harrison, David Golumbia, Andrew Schelling, Fred Muratori, E. McGrand, Michael Heller, Kristen Ankiewicz, Lance Olsen, Peter Wild, Rochelle Ratner, Bill Berkson, Elaine Equi, Laurel Speer, Trevor Dodge, Paul Beckman, Susan Wheeler, James Bertolino, Clayton Eshleman, Sheila E. Murphy, Amie Siegel, Patricia Dubrava, Elizabeth Fox, Brett Evans, H. Kassia Fleisher, Jean Anderson, Sharon Dolin, Laurel Speer, Cheryl Burket, Elsa Cross, and Vandana Shiva. and is looking for new work -- esp. prose (any genre) -- for its eighth issue. Visit the site at www.sugarmule.com ---you NEED to type in the WWW--- to read submission guidelines and the latest issue. Deadline for submissions is August 15, 2001. We also welcome any comments you might have. From wasanthony Tue May 1 10:08:21 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 07:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Ondaatje poem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010501140821.27893.qmail@web12101.mail.yahoo.com> --- JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > "Smell me"??? Three gacks. > > > > Jordan > so I guess you're not interested in Knopf's > special promotional scratch-n-sniff broadside? > Finnegan I am! I am! I gave it only half-a-gack. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From paul.lake Tue May 1 00:40:37 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 23:40:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ondaatje Message-ID: In a word, this poem smells. Like a bad translation from an unknown language, faux naif, sentimental, Poetry with a capital P. Paul Lake From paul.lake Tue May 1 00:43:39 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 23:43:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ondaatje poem Message-ID: On second thought, this poem reminds me of a line by a cartoon character my kids watch: Johnny Bravo. "Hey, you smell pretty. Wanna smell me?" Paul Lake From Rsgwynn1 Tue May 1 11:52:20 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 11:52:20 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Ondaatje Message-ID: <104.2b1d6c8.282035b4@cs.com> In a message dated 5/1/2001 10:49:41 AM Central Daylight Time, paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: > In a word, this poem smells. Like a bad translation from an unknown > language, faux naif, sentimental, Poetry with a capital P. > > Paul Lake means, Poetry with a capital PU. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Tue May 1 12:00:29 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 12:00:29 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet of the Month Message-ID: <3d.b0558cb.2820379d@cs.com> A great crime against American poetry has been committed. Check it out at: http://members.aol.com/poetrynet/month/index.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wasanthony Tue May 1 12:10:18 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 09:10:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet of the Month In-Reply-To: <3d.b0558cb.2820379d@cs.com> Message-ID: <20010501161018.13262.qmail@web12106.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > A great crime against American poetry has been committed. Check it > out at: > > http://members.aol.com/poetrynet/month/index.html > You're right. That guy looks nothing like Sam Gwynn, who I imagined looking more like Faulkner in a white suit. The internet is full of imposters! - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From aprentiss Tue May 1 12:14:15 2001 From: aprentiss (Amber Prentiss) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 12:14:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ondaatje Message-ID: Some parts deserved to be saved; others deserved to be cut. Everyone's allowed to suck sometimes, I suppose. I know it's a bad time of year for people and grousing can help reduce the pressure on the brain, but I'd like to see some poems that people really admire. I know what tepid poetry is. I know what truly bad poetry is. (It takes special talent to make something truly bad.) But what poems make you wish that you had written them? -Amber -----Original Message----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 5/1/2001 11:52 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ondaatje In a message dated 5/1/2001 10:49:41 AM Central Daylight Time, paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: In a word, this poem smells. ?Like a bad translation from an unknown language, faux naif, sentimental, Poetry with a capital P. Paul Lake means, Poetry with a capital PU. From grahamd Tue May 1 12:23:26 2001 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 11:23:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] McClanahan Message-ID: Today's feature on Poetry Daily (http://www.poems.com) is Rebecca McClanahan, a poet I think should be better known. From the PD site you can make your way, if you wish, to her home page as well as to a couple other poems archived on the web. I once wrote a tiny review of one of her books--part of a group review-- that was axed for space reasons. I'll take this opportunity to haul out the core of my remarks: ======================== The author's note on Rebecca McClanahan's *The Intersection of X and Y* informs us that it is her third collection, which is not surprising: this is a confident, mature voice taking up issues of love and family life, for the most part, with quiet skill and rueful wisdom. She is at her best in poems of romantic relationship, as in "To the Absent Wife of the Beautiful Poet at the Writer's Conference," "First Husband," or "Hello Love." "Sidekick," a somewhat uncharacteristic piece, reminds me of no one so much as William Trowbridge, as she writes in praise of classic American second-bananas: This one is for Barney Fife and Barney Rubble, for Ed and Trixie, for Ethel and Fred, the straight man, ploy, the wooden decoy bobbing, back-up singers with their benign doo-wops, and the boy in the back of the choir who is asked to just please mouth the words. It must be said that for the most part in her poems she rarely coins memorable phrases or causes you to admire a single line. Her diction is simple, her lines long, her rhythms tending toward the prosy end of the free verse spectrum. But this transparency of style is in the service of poems which often work like good fiction, layering detail upon detail in subtle and satisfying abundance. For this reason, it is hard to select representative excerpts. Here in full is one of the shorter poems in the book, "Infant Hill, Elmwood Cemetery," which will have to serve as example of her characteristic strategies: In the cartography of grown-up plots, six feet the measure of a man, it is difficult to fit a playpen fence, expensive to mow the uneven spaces between. So on this hillside between public housing's dusty porches and the interstate, the babies are planted together. A truck rumbles past, bequeathing to the asphalt slab the wrappings of a tire outlasting its second chance. On the fence, honeysuckle and wild roses entangle in the perennial lust of summer, and a young girl walks the frontage road alone, her hand resting on a white shirt shrouding a belly that has swelled beyond expectation. It is always a surprise, the seed that sprouts. Always a surprise to bury an infant. What we mourn is a heart that had barely stuttered, a blossoming petal of lung, yet we must name him someone, if only Infant Son of Sharon and Tim. This is enough. Any more might sink the memory deep as these stones promising too much: John Fitzgerald, Malcolm, George Washington Carver the Fourth. The newer graves are a comfort, soap opera's brief bubble--Tiffany, Brittany, Jeremy, Hope, names interchangeable as this row of identical stone lambs grazing atop graves weedy with forgetfulness. And here is a death too fresh for a marker, except a profusion of blue carnations and a day-old helium balloon with a few breaths left, an exhausted valentine someone stood in line at the grocery store to buy. [fr. *The Intersection of X and Y* (Copper Beech, 1996)] Now of course if you can't write a creditable poem about a graveyard for infants, then you're not much of a poet. But McClanahan takes on this set piece with entirely characteristic tact. At every opportunity for bathos or melodrama, she surprises me by opting for clear-eyed observation rather than emotional underlining. In touches like those names lifted from soap operas, she captures the strangeness of the scene with wonderful economy. In details like those cast-off retreads on the interstate, she discovers an apt symbol without violating her scrupulous realism. In this kind of move she can resemble Elizabeth Bishop, another poet of marvelous tact and copious detail. At her best, McClanahan deserves the comparison. ======================== David Graham __________________ David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu __________________ From eselinge Tue May 1 12:50:36 2001 From: eselinge (Eric Selinger) Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 11:50:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Call for Papers (or Proposals) on Ronald Johnson Message-ID: Hello, everyone. I'm currently co-editing a collection of essays on the poet Ronald Johnson. Although the book is filling up nicely, we're still interested in hearing from potential contributors. If you have an essay you're itching to write on RJ's work--especially on the earlier poetry, or the concrete poems, but we're open to offers--please contact me directly at eselinge at wppost.depaul.edu. Best, EMS From moira_russell Tue May 1 13:55:16 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 09:55:16 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet of the Month Message-ID: >A great crime against American poetry has been committed. Check it out at: > >http://members.aol.com/poetrynet/month/index.html *Congratulations*, Sam you thief you. It is great to see "Cleante" available on-line. But shouldn't the site say your book is already out, so people can snap it up? Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From halvard Tue May 1 14:08:54 2001 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 14:08:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lynda Schor & Jane Lazarre reading tonight--May 1 Message-ID: Last-minute reminder: If you're in the NYC area, Lynda Schor and Jane Lazarre will be reading at Barnes & Noble, 240 E. 86th St., New York, NY 10028, tonight, Tuesday, May 1, at 7:30 p.m. Both readers are contributors to *Mother Reader: Essential Writings on Motherhood*, published by Seven Stories Press and edited by Moyra Davey, who will also participate in the reading/discussion. Store contact: Frances Kelly--212-794-1962 From JforJames Tue May 1 17:08:10 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 17:08:10 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] The Public Life of American Poetry Message-ID: <31.1427c938.28207fba@aol.com> From halvard Tue May 1 17:25:13 2001 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 17:25:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] FW: Sugar Mule issue 7 is out Message-ID: You'll find work by both Burt Kimmelman and me in this issue. Hal "Flotsam, please, and a side order of jetsam." Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson > Subject: issue 7 is out > > be sure to type the www > > in > > www.sugarmule.com From jdavis Tue May 1 17:59:38 2001 From: jdavis (Jordan Davis) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 17:59:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] 20th c. summer In-Reply-To: <104.2b1d6c8.282035b4@cs.com> Message-ID: Amber - Ditch English. Read everything you can find in French and modern Greek. Albiach Apollinaire Breton Cendrars Cesaire Eluard Jouve Mallarme Perse Ponge Reverdy Sarraute Senghor Angelaki-Rooke Cavafy Elytis Ritsos Seferis just some names - happy summer. Jordan From moira_russell Tue May 1 18:29:48 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 14:29:48 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] McClanahan Message-ID: David Graham wrote: >she can resemble Elizabeth Bishop, another poet of marvelous tact and >copious detail. At her best, McClanahan deserves the comparison. With her family history, Elizabeth Bishop would hardly have written "Always a surprise to bury an infant." I don't think she would have piled on the agony with that exhausted valentine in the very last line either. >Now of course if you can't write a creditable poem about a graveyard for >infants, then you're not much of a poet. What? Was there some boomlet in poetry about infant graveyards I missed recently? Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From Cadaly Tue May 1 19:38:45 2001 From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 19:38:45 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 1926 Message-ID: On the other hand, the year 1926 alone brought into the world W. D. Snodgrass, A. R. Ammons, James Merrill, Robert Creeley, Allen Ginsberg, Frank O'Hara, Paul Blackburn, and Robert Bly. The next year, 1927, added John Ashbery, W. S. Merwin, and James Wright. Amazing. Absolutely no women born those years? Rgds, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Tue May 1 21:29:21 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 21:29:21 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] COLLAGE, MONTAGE, ASSEMBLING: ENGLISH LANGUAGE POETRY Message-ID: Nicked from Brit Poets list... Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 14:01:05 +0100 From: cris cheek Subject: more news sure you'd all be wanting to rush to another conference. Lookis interesting though COLLAGE, MONTAGE, ASSEMBLING: ENGLISH LANGUAGE POETRY Groupe de Recherche Inter-universitaire sur la Posie anglophone (GRIP) UFR d'ETUDES ANGLOPHONES UNIVERSITE PARIS 7- DENIS DIDEROT 10, rue Charles V, 75004 PARIS 14th-15th JUNE 2002 The object of this conference is certain forms of " making", a making that can concern individual poetic texts , series of poetic texts (collections, selections, anthologies ...) or works that are mixed in that they use, for example, non-poetic material (prose, non illustrative visual material ....). It works from a series of metaphors which all raise the central question of fragmentation and articulation. This double movement could be analyzed from a historical, genetic, metrical, or syntactic point of view, or by examining the articulation of themes, or the points of those institutions that construct canons, distinguish genres, and periods. The conference hopes to raise a series of aesthetic problems: - the use, in critical texts, of technical terms from architecture, painting, cinema, music, photography and " engineering" (in, for example, notions like " play" as it is used in " the parts had more play than was strictly necessary" ) - internal procedures like repetition, irony, lay-out, " pattern poems", " visual poetry", " concrete poetry", the functioning of tropes like conceit and simile, " seaming", " quilting", the problem of edges (frayed/masked etc...) - the problem of frontiers (watertight?; porous?...) between the poetic text and " foreign" material (notes, prose, quotations in a foreign language, " found objects" ...). - certain notions like the heterogeneous, combination, parataxis ... A selection of papers will be published in the Cahiers Charles V after the conference. Proposals in French or in English (200 words for a 25 minute paper) to be sent to Professor Paul Volsik (at the above address) before the end of October 2001, decision on acceptance by the scientific committee (GRIP) in November 2001, confirmation in December 2001. From Rsgwynn1 Tue May 1 22:18:08 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 22:18:08 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet of the Month Message-ID: <18.c27b862.2820c860@cs.com> I sent this address out this morning and it seemed to work fine on my computer. However, several people have told me that they get the page with Anthony Lombardy, last month's poet. Ah, sweet mysteries of cyber-space! http://members.aol.com/poetrynet/month/index.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wjbat Wed May 2 00:16:01 2001 From: wjbat (Wendy Battin) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 23:16:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why does contemporary American poetry suck? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010501231601.001099@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> Which American poetry are we talking about? We've gotten close to pure chaos now, which is perhaps not a bad thing. The Pulitzers and AWP and the Buffalo conglomerate notwithstanding, there's a lot of good work and a lot of lousy work being published here. "Boring and predictable" sums up most poems from all schools. Is there a specific question embedded in all these posts, and if there is, would somebody articulate it for me? Wendy Amber Prentiss wrote: >However, some of the complaints I've read are more along the lines of saying >that American poetry isn't punchy enough and has become too safe in its >self-observations. In short, that it's boring and predictable. Boring isn't >so much a formal problem as a content and language problem. Of course, a >remedy to sheer boredom would be to see more voices in print. Some aren't >decring democratization; some seem to beg for it. >-Amber From halvard Tue May 1 23:17:54 2001 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 23:17:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 1926 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On the other hand, the year 1926 alone brought into the world W. D. Snodgrass, A. R. Ammons, James Merrill, Robert Creeley, Allen Ginsberg, Frank O'Hara, Paul Blackburn, and Robert Bly. The next year, 1927, added John Ashbery, W. S. Merwin, and James Wright. Amazing. Absolutely no women born those years? Rgds, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net Maybe not, Catherine. Do *you* know of any? I've checked a couple more anthologies and found a couple more old boys for '26 (Stanley Moss, David Wagoner, John Woods) and a few for '27 (Larry Eigner, Galway Kinnell, Philip Lamantia), but still no women. Nancy Sullivan's close, but she wasn't born until '29. Hal "Between the manifold splendors of anger, I watch a door slam like the corsage of a flower or the erasers of schoolchildren." --Andre Breton Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From grahamd Tue May 1 23:24:39 2001 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 22:24:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 1926 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: 1926 was kind of an annus mirabilis, I think. As it happens, some high-powered women poets fall to either side, e.g.: Swenson 1919 Guest 1920 Van Duyn 1921 Levertov 1923 Kumin 1925 Kizer 1925 Sexton 1928 Rich 1929 Plath 1932 DiPrima 1934 Wakoski 1937 But I can't, offhand, think of a single woman of comparable reputation born in 1926 or 1927. What poets were *you* thinking of, Catherine? David Graham ______________________ >On the other hand, the year 1926 alone brought into the world >W. D. Snodgrass, A. R. Ammons, James Merrill, Robert Creeley, >Allen Ginsberg, Frank O'Hara, Paul Blackburn, and Robert Bly. >The next year, 1927, added John Ashbery, W. S. Merwin, >and James Wright. > > > >Amazing. Absolutely no women born those years? > >Rgds, >Catherine Daly >cadaly at pacbell.net __________________ David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu __________________ From halvard Tue May 1 23:35:52 2001 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 23:35:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 1926 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This site doesn't help much with years of birth, but there's a lot of stuff it does do. Check it out. http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/calendar.htm Hal "Flotsam, please, and a side order of jetsam." Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From mackechnie Tue May 1 23:39:24 2001 From: mackechnie (Russ MacKechnie) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 23:39:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Anything but Tepid. . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > But what poems make you wish that you had written them? With all due respect to Jordan's foreign laundry list, Amber, there's an answer to your question as close as Hartford, Connecticut---an answer that will provide you with a glorious summer redolent of what poetry---American poetry---is all about. Dig deep into your pockets and shell out the $30 or so for the Library of America's _Wallace Stevens Collected Poetry and Prose_ edited by Frank Kermode and Joan Richardson. If I am wrong about Stevens's effect on you as a poet, a poetry lover, a human being, I promise to take the volume off your hands and reimburse you for the full purchase price. The poem I wish above all that I'd written? "A Rabbit as King of the Ghosts." Then "Final Soliloquy of the Interior Paramour." Then "Domination of Black." Then "Sunday Morning." Then "The Auroras of Autumn." Then . . . . Russ MacKechnie From halvard Tue May 1 23:48:32 2001 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 23:48:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 1926 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Actually a Google search of the site below did turn up a woman poet born in 1926, a well-known one too-- Ingeborg Bachmann. But we were looking on the western shores of the Atlantic, weren't we? Hal > This site doesn't help much with years of birth, but there's > a lot of stuff it does do. Check it out. > > http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/calendar.htm > > Hal "Flotsam, please, and a side order of jetsam." > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards Wed May 2 00:20:15 2001 From: tadrichards (OTIS RICHARDS) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 00:20:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] McClanahan References: Message-ID: <006f01c0d2bf$3134bc20$6401a8c0@ibm25310> > > What? Was there some boomlet in poetry about infant graveyards I missed > recently? > > Moira Russell > Seattle, WA > > > There's always "Home Burial." Tad _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards Wed May 2 00:25:24 2001 From: tadrichards (OTIS RICHARDS) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 00:25:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Anything but Tepid. . . . References: Message-ID: <009901c0d2bf$e9085dc0$6401a8c0@ibm25310> ...The "Comedian as the Letter C" and "Sea Surface Full of Clouds." Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russ MacKechnie" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 11:39 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Anything but Tepid. . . . > > But what poems make you wish that you had written them? > > With all due respect to Jordan's foreign laundry list, Amber, there's > an answer to your question as close as Hartford, Connecticut---an answer > that will provide you with a glorious summer redolent of what > poetry---American poetry---is all about. Dig deep into your pockets and > shell out the $30 or so for the Library of America's _Wallace Stevens > Collected Poetry and Prose_ edited by Frank Kermode and Joan Richardson. > If I am wrong about Stevens's effect on you as a poet, a poetry lover, a > human being, I promise to take the volume off your hands and reimburse > you for the full purchase price. The poem I wish above all that I'd > written? "A Rabbit as King of the Ghosts." Then "Final Soliloquy of > the Interior Paramour." Then "Domination of Black." Then "Sunday > Morning." Then "The Auroras of Autumn." Then . . . . > > Russ MacKechnie > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From aprentiss Wed May 2 00:32:23 2001 From: aprentiss (Amber Prentiss) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 00:32:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why does contemporary American poetry suck? Message-ID: Nope! It's an invitation to spout. The original post (qtd. at the end), other than the inflammatory title, asked two questions: one, does all this grousing about contemporary poetry have merit - does it really suck? If it does, then why? I like to probe people's discontent. But here are some specific questions if you want 'em: Does this grumpy opinion that contemporary American poetry is more horrible than usual really come out of bewilderment in the face of a plurality of voices or discontent with what they think these voices tend to say? And, to ask another question, what is this plurality? Who's doing what in it? What makes it chaotic? Is it chaotic? Does that matter? -Amber Here's the post: Thought that might get your attention. I keep running across essays in different places such as Rattle http://www.rattle.com/rattle13/poetry/mmadias.html), Painted Bride Quarterly (http://pbq.rutgers.edu/issues/65/ConnellyEssay.htm), a four-year-old issue of New York Quarterly (print), and the grouchy Boston Comment (http://webdelsol.com/f-bostoncomment.htm), whose author even quotes everyone's favorite Mr. Logan. Are these just old-timers' I-remember-the-days crotchets, or is there really some sort of mad poetry blight? Basically, these essays say "contemporary American poetry really, really sucks." Does it? Why? -Amber Prentiss -----Original Message----- From: Wendy Battin To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 5/2/01 12:16 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why does contemporary American poetry suck? Which American poetry are we talking about? We've gotten close to pure chaos now, which is perhaps not a bad thing. The Pulitzers and AWP and the Buffalo conglomerate notwithstanding, there's a lot of good work and a lot of lousy work being published here. "Boring and predictable" sums up most poems from all schools. Is there a specific question embedded in all these posts, and if there is, would somebody articulate it for me? Wendy Amber Prentiss wrote: >However, some of the complaints I've read are more along the lines of saying >that American poetry isn't punchy enough and has become too safe in its >self-observations. In short, that it's boring and predictable. Boring isn't >so much a formal problem as a content and language problem. Of course, a >remedy to sheer boredom would be to see more voices in print. Some aren't >decring democratization; some seem to beg for it. >-Amber _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From DICK Tue May 1 19:02:59 2001 From: DICK (DICK at watson.ibm.com) Date: Tue, 1 May 01 19:02:59 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon Message-ID: <200105012304.TAA24260@sp1n189at0.watson.ibm.com> It happens I'm reading Bloom's book right now, and I'm totally engrossed at the enormous breadth of his reading, understanding, and ability to make sweeping comparisons and crossreferences, and to communicate his enthusiasms clearly and gracefully. I'm just amazed that David Graham can use words like "poverty of imagination" and "ludicrous" when speaking of Harold Bloom. David Graham wrote: >>In this regard, the poverty of imagination in a critic like Harold Bloom is >>really stunning, I think. He has no ears for so many different kinds of >>contemporary poetry (especially those based in the oral tradition) that his >>particular brand of elitism just seems ludicrous. >> Richard From wasanthony Wed May 2 11:50:51 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 08:50:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] "A Libelous Lexicon" Message-ID: <20010502155051.63504.qmail@web12104.mail.yahoo.com> Thought this group would appreciate this. It's from Greg Glazner's "Countermeasures," < http://www.csf.edu/countermeasures/lexicon.html> - Jim A LIBELOUS LEXICON Installation Art: 1. Rooms that you would not normally enter without a hard hat. 2. Amusement parks minus the amusement. 3. Poorly-made structures that exist to justify a manifesto. 4. Where the vacuous and the indignant conspire to depict the obvious. Performance Art: When a person of limited talents, who can neither write, act, sing, dance, nor play a musical instrument, stands in front of an audience of limited sense and fails at all five endeavors at once. The Workshop Poem: Forty well-crafted lines specifically about me which I insist are also vaguely about you. The New Formalist Poem: Forty well-crafted, rhymed and metered lines specifically about me which I insist are also specifically about you. Deconstruction: The art of dismantling someone else's text and using the materials of that text to construct a far superior text of your own while maintaining that nothing can be built of anything. Artistic Elitism: Trying to do something well, thereby oppressing those who would rather not. ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From moira_russell Wed May 2 12:02:55 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 08:02:55 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Merrill, Wealth, etc. Message-ID: Paul Lake wrote: >I have to admit, Moira, that I once did let my class resentment of Stevens >affect my judgment of his work, though,it wasn't only his moneyed ease that >bothered me, but how it affected his attitude about certain subjects. My >article, which appeared originally in the Wallace Stevens Journal, follows, >for anyone interested. (well-written essay snipped for reasons of space) Paul, Thank you for sending the essay to the list; I do like to see meditations on poets which are a little longer than what seems usual in poetry criticism. I'm sorry I haven't responded till now -- the email has been getting a bit backed up. Your comparison of Stevens with Shelley is very interesting -- not something I would think of on my own but nearly irresistible when proposed -- but I guess I don't see the reason exactly why you would see him as a Romantic. Stevens' removal from the quotidian, from the ability to enter into the "I-Thou" relationship, seems much more Modernistic to me. I also have to admit I think there is something of a cult for the quotidian, the everyday, the mundane, these days, and perhaps in poetry at least this is an over-reaction to some of the overly wrought formal poems of the Fifties. I think Randall Jarrell also had similar concerns about Stevens -- "He sees the bright side of every dark shadow," I believe is how he put it. (Or was that referring to Richard Wilbur?) Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From grahamd Wed May 2 12:37:48 2001 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 11:37:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon Message-ID: For what it's worth, I was thinking specifically not of Bloom's *The Western Canon* but of his diatribe, "They have the numbers; we, the heights," which introduced his Best of the Best American antho. That essay is available online, along with a number of responses to it: http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR23.2/bloom.html I'm amazed by Bloom's erudition, too. And I've found him an invaluable critic of the Romantics. But from where I sit, his taste in contemporary poetry is uncomfortably narrow, since it excludes a great deal of poetry that I admire. I particularly like what David Mura said in response to Bloom's essay: http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR23.3/mura.html Here are the opening paragraph's of Mura's essay: _____________________ In the world according to Harold Bloom, there are those who occupy the heights of objective judgment and the barbarians below. Or, as Bloom would have it, what he reads with pleasure and profit must possess lasting aesthetic value. Those who do not see that value have been blinded to the true purpose of literature by a political or ideological agenda. In contrast, Bloom's judgment has nothing to do with his race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnic origin, or politics. He possesses no extra-literary agenda, no personal biases. If we point out that all the writers he holds up in admiration are white and most of them male, we are replacing objective literary criteria with sociology. I am not convinced that Bloom's sight is so unequivocally accurate and god-like. When he proclaims that his opponents are entirely preoccupied with the race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnic origin, and political purpose of the would-be poet, I see either a misunderstanding or a mischaracterization of their arguments. Characteristics such as race and gender surely suggest areas of study that might aid in understanding and evaluating a poet. Moreover, for certain poets, such study might be required to appreciate fully their aesthetic value. It does not follow that matters of technique or analyses of form should be dismissed or denied preeminent importance-though even here one might certainly find instances where the forms a poet employs derive from aspects in their background. At the same time, Bloom would probably maintain that the critic's own background or identity ought to be irrelevant. Or at least, that his must be. Perhaps Harold Bloom is special. But for myself and every other critic I've encountered, such factors are relevant. It's not a question of whether we carry prejudices and blinders within our psyches, but what kind. But I suppose that for Harold Bloom, I'm just one of those (critics and poets) who have politicized literature and broken from that Edenic paradise where literature possessed no political designs or effects and existed in a separate realm altogether. According to Bloom, remnants of that apolitical period existed before the onslaught of the sixties and the resulting deterioration of culture. Yet even in the late seventies, when I was a graduate student, the curriculum I studied would have probably met Harold Bloom's approval. Other than a handful of poems by Amiri Baraka, all the poets were white, and the overwhelming majority were white males. According to Bloom, then, I studied the apolitical canon. That's not how I remember it. Certain professors and critics such as James Dickey implied or explicitly stated that women were less capable than men of writing great literature (the logic here: if women were more capable, then of course we'd be studying them). Similarly, I was told outright and subtly that to identify myself as an Japanese American or Asian American writer or a writer of color was to relegate myself to a literary ghetto-- to enter literature through a back door affirmative action program. This only reinforced the cultural lessons I had learned growing up in an all white suburb, wanting to assimilate and erase my difference, wanting to disassociate myself from other Japanese-Americans or people of color. I told myself I wanted to be judged as an individual, for my own merits. What I knew subconsciously was that I really wanted to be white. And nothing in my literary training through grad school ever led me to question this desire or enabled me to formulate any other understanding of my identity. _______________________________ David Graham >It happens I'm reading Bloom's book right now, and I'm >totally engrossed at the enormous breadth of his reading, >understanding, and ability to make sweeping comparisons and >crossreferences, and to communicate his enthusiasms clearly >and gracefully. > >I'm just amazed that David Graham can use words like >"poverty of imagination" and "ludicrous" when speaking of >Harold Bloom. > > >David Graham wrote: >>>In this regard, the poverty of imagination in a critic like Harold Bloom is >>>really stunning, I think. He has no ears for so many different kinds of >>>contemporary poetry (especially those based in the oral tradition) that his >>>particular brand of elitism just seems ludicrous. >>> > >Richard __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From halvard Wed May 2 12:50:51 2001 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 12:50:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And Bloom would probably make a passingly good Falstaff. When *is* that performance, or has it already been? Anyone know? Hal "For me the Internet . . . is like the Congo. I know it exists, but I will never go there." --Harold Bloom Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson > For what it's worth, I was thinking specifically not of Bloom's *The > Western Canon* but of his diatribe, "They have the numbers; we, the > heights," which introduced his Best of the Best American antho. > > That essay is available online, along with a number of responses to it: > > http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR23.2/bloom.html > > I'm amazed by Bloom's erudition, too. And I've found him an invaluable > critic of the Romantics. > > But from where I sit, his taste in contemporary poetry is uncomfortably > narrow, since it excludes a great deal of poetry that I admire. I > particularly like what David Mura said in response to Bloom's essay: > > http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR23.3/mura.html > > Here are the opening paragraph's of Mura's essay: > > _____________________ > In the world according to Harold Bloom, there are those who occupy the > heights of objective judgment and the barbarians below. Or, as Bloom would > have it, what he reads with pleasure and profit must possess lasting > aesthetic value. Those who do not see that value have been blinded to the > true purpose of literature by a political or ideological agenda. In > contrast, Bloom's judgment has nothing to do with his race, gender, sexual > orientation, ethnic origin, or politics. He possesses no extra-literary > agenda, no personal biases. If we point out that all the writers he holds > up in admiration are white and most of them male, we are replacing > objective literary criteria with sociology. > > I am not convinced that Bloom's sight is so unequivocally accurate and > god-like. When he proclaims that his opponents are entirely preoccupied > with the race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnic origin, and political > purpose of the would-be poet, I see either a misunderstanding or a > mischaracterization of their arguments. Characteristics such as race and > gender surely suggest areas of study that might aid in understanding and > evaluating a poet. Moreover, for certain poets, such study might be > required to appreciate fully their aesthetic value. It does not follow that > matters of technique or analyses of form should be dismissed or denied > preeminent importance-though even here one might certainly find instances > where the forms a poet employs derive from aspects in their background. > > At the same time, Bloom would probably maintain that the critic's own > background or identity ought to be irrelevant. Or at least, that his must > be. Perhaps Harold Bloom is special. But for myself and every other critic > I've encountered, such factors are relevant. It's not a question of whether > we carry prejudices and blinders within our psyches, but what kind. But I > suppose that for Harold Bloom, I'm just one of those (critics and poets) > who have politicized literature and broken from that Edenic paradise where > literature possessed no political designs or effects and existed in a > separate realm altogether. > > According to Bloom, remnants of that apolitical period existed before the > onslaught of the sixties and the resulting deterioration of culture. Yet > even in the late seventies, when I was a graduate student, the curriculum I > studied would have probably met Harold Bloom's approval. Other than a > handful of poems by Amiri Baraka, all the poets were white, and the > overwhelming majority were white males. According to Bloom, then, I studied > the apolitical canon. That's not how I remember it. Certain professors and > critics such as James Dickey implied or explicitly stated that women were > less capable than men of writing great literature (the logic here: if women > were more capable, then of course we'd be studying them). Similarly, I was > told outright and subtly that to identify myself as an Japanese American or > Asian American writer or a writer of color was to relegate myself to a > literary ghetto-- to enter literature through a back door affirmative > action program. This only reinforced the cultural lessons I had learned > growing up in an all white suburb, wanting to assimilate and erase my > difference, wanting to disassociate myself from other Japanese-Americans or > people of color. I told myself I wanted to be judged as an individual, for > my own merits. What I knew subconsciously was that I really wanted to be > white. And nothing in my literary training through grad school ever led me > to question this desire or enabled me to formulate any other understanding > of my identity. > _______________________________ > > David Graham > > >It happens I'm reading Bloom's book right now, and I'm > >totally engrossed at the enormous breadth of his reading, > >understanding, and ability to make sweeping comparisons and > >crossreferences, and to communicate his enthusiasms clearly > >and gracefully. > > > >I'm just amazed that David Graham can use words like > >"poverty of imagination" and "ludicrous" when speaking of > >Harold Bloom. > > > > > >David Graham wrote: > >>>In this regard, the poverty of imagination in a critic like Harold Bloom is > >>>really stunning, I think. He has no ears for so many different kinds of > >>>contemporary poetry (especially those based in the oral tradition) that his > >>>particular brand of elitism just seems ludicrous. > >>> > > > >Richard > > > __________________ > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > __________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From mmagee Wed May 2 12:57:41 2001 From: mmagee (Michael Magee) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 12:57:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon In-Reply-To: from "David Graham" at May 2, 2001 11:37:48 am Message-ID: <200105021657.MAA13757@dept.english.upenn.edu> David, thanks very much for this. I've been, along the way, a very serious reader of Bloom, particularly AGON, but I've read it all. Yes he's erudite, abjectly so. And the idea of Bloom as agendaless is beyond dumb. Anyone who knows AGON well, to say nothing of THE ANXIETY OF INFLUENCE and A MAP OF MISREADING, knows that Freud looms behind all, informs every aesthetic choice, every literary family tree drawn, every description of tradition and the individual talent. For "influences" there's the early Freud; for properly deconstructive, "radical" readings of texts there's the Freud of BEYOND THE PLEASURE PRINCIPLE. It's all a little bit interesting, tho more predictable the more you wade into it. But ultimately it feels too much like a Victorian parlor game for me, or a rather sophisticated game of Jeopardy, if you like. And as you say, the number of great writers he can't read at all would fill a very large book. -m. According to David Graham: > > For what it's worth, I was thinking specifically not of Bloom's *The > Western Canon* but of his diatribe, "They have the numbers; we, the > heights," which introduced his Best of the Best American antho. > > That essay is available online, along with a number of responses to it: > > http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR23.2/bloom.html > > I'm amazed by Bloom's erudition, too. And I've found him an invaluable > critic of the Romantics. > > But from where I sit, his taste in contemporary poetry is uncomfortably > narrow, since it excludes a great deal of poetry that I admire. I > particularly like what David Mura said in response to Bloom's essay: > > http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR23.3/mura.html > > Here are the opening paragraph's of Mura's essay: > > _____________________ > In the world according to Harold Bloom, there are those who occupy the > heights of objective judgment and the barbarians below. Or, as Bloom would > have it, what he reads with pleasure and profit must possess lasting > aesthetic value. Those who do not see that value have been blinded to the > true purpose of literature by a political or ideological agenda. In > contrast, Bloom's judgment has nothing to do with his race, gender, sexual > orientation, ethnic origin, or politics. He possesses no extra-literary > agenda, no personal biases. If we point out that all the writers he holds > up in admiration are white and most of them male, we are replacing > objective literary criteria with sociology. > > I am not convinced that Bloom's sight is so unequivocally accurate and > god-like. When he proclaims that his opponents are entirely preoccupied > with the race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnic origin, and political > purpose of the would-be poet, I see either a misunderstanding or a > mischaracterization of their arguments. Characteristics such as race and > gender surely suggest areas of study that might aid in understanding and > evaluating a poet. Moreover, for certain poets, such study might be > required to appreciate fully their aesthetic value. It does not follow that > matters of technique or analyses of form should be dismissed or denied > preeminent importance-though even here one might certainly find instances > where the forms a poet employs derive from aspects in their background. > > At the same time, Bloom would probably maintain that the critic's own > background or identity ought to be irrelevant. Or at least, that his must > be. Perhaps Harold Bloom is special. But for myself and every other critic > I've encountered, such factors are relevant. It's not a question of whether > we carry prejudices and blinders within our psyches, but what kind. But I > suppose that for Harold Bloom, I'm just one of those (critics and poets) > who have politicized literature and broken from that Edenic paradise where > literature possessed no political designs or effects and existed in a > separate realm altogether. > > According to Bloom, remnants of that apolitical period existed before the > onslaught of the sixties and the resulting deterioration of culture. Yet > even in the late seventies, when I was a graduate student, the curriculum I > studied would have probably met Harold Bloom's approval. Other than a > handful of poems by Amiri Baraka, all the poets were white, and the > overwhelming majority were white males. According to Bloom, then, I studied > the apolitical canon. That's not how I remember it. Certain professors and > critics such as James Dickey implied or explicitly stated that women were > less capable than men of writing great literature (the logic here: if women > were more capable, then of course we'd be studying them). Similarly, I was > told outright and subtly that to identify myself as an Japanese American or > Asian American writer or a writer of color was to relegate myself to a > literary ghetto-- to enter literature through a back door affirmative > action program. This only reinforced the cultural lessons I had learned > growing up in an all white suburb, wanting to assimilate and erase my > difference, wanting to disassociate myself from other Japanese-Americans or > people of color. I told myself I wanted to be judged as an individual, for > my own merits. What I knew subconsciously was that I really wanted to be > white. And nothing in my literary training through grad school ever led me > to question this desire or enabled me to formulate any other understanding > of my identity. > _______________________________ > > David Graham > > >It happens I'm reading Bloom's book right now, and I'm > >totally engrossed at the enormous breadth of his reading, > >understanding, and ability to make sweeping comparisons and > >crossreferences, and to communicate his enthusiasms clearly > >and gracefully. > > > >I'm just amazed that David Graham can use words like > >"poverty of imagination" and "ludicrous" when speaking of > >Harold Bloom. > > > > > >David Graham wrote: > >>>In this regard, the poverty of imagination in a critic like Harold Bloom is > >>>really stunning, I think. He has no ears for so many different kinds of > >>>contemporary poetry (especially those based in the oral tradition) that his > >>>particular brand of elitism just seems ludicrous. > >>> > > > >Richard > > > __________________ > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > __________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From paul.lake Wed May 2 01:49:40 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 00:49:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] When first your eye I eyed Message-ID: >The New Formalist Poem: Forty well-crafted, rhymed and metered lines >specifically about me which I insist are also specifically about you. Greg Glazner has clearly missed the boat on this one. Below are two poems by Sam Gwynn lifted from the link he provided yesterday. They're both exemplary in being about something beside the poet. Paul Lake At Rose's Range Old Gladys, in lime polyester slacks, Might rate a laugh until she puts her weight Squarely behind the snubnosed .38, Draws down and pulls. The bulldog muzzle cracks And barks six times, and six black daisies flower Dead in the heart of Saddam's silhouette. She turns aside, empties, reloads, gets set And fires again. This goes on for an hour. Later, we pass the time at the front door Where she sits smoking, waiting for the friend Who drives her places after dark: _You know, Earl's free next month. He says he wants some more Of what she's got, and she's my daughter so I reckon there's just one way this can end_. Why They Love Us ?????????????????????? Vanna, 1987?-1995 Dogs love us uncomplainingly because They see us in a way we never do. They don't have sense enough to see our flaws The way we fear our lovers' fangs and claws. Blondi loved Hitler; Checkers, Nixon too. They love us uncomplainingly because When swatted with the news for muddy paws Or chewing on that Bruno Magli shoe They don't have sense enough to see our flaws. We live by common sense and logic's laws: With dogs, forget it. Even if they knew They love us uncomplainingly because They're idiots, they still won't drop their jaws And say, "Duh, you were mean to me. We're through." They don't have sense enough to see our flaws. Thank god for that. A big round of applause For what can sniff your ass and still love you. Dogs love us uncomplainingly because They don't have sense enough to see our flaws. From moira_russell Wed May 2 13:17:57 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 09:17:57 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] When first your eye I eyed Message-ID: Paul wrote: >Greg Glazner has clearly missed the boat on this one. Below are two poems >by Sam Gwynn lifted from the link he provided yesterday. They're both >exemplary in being about something beside the poet. I think you are right about Sam (especially with that wonderful long poem now online, "Cleante...."), who (he said once) has his students write dramatic monologs specifically about Other People, but that item did give me a chuckle (apart from the rhetorical repetition) thinking of poets like Marilyn Hacker, Molly Peacock, and so on (I know I have been harping on them recently, but they spring to mind as poets I like). One could possibly argue that all art is specific and fails as art when it doesn't reach to the general -- that is, when it can't be appreciated by someone who hasn't had exactly the same experience -- anyway. But that may be veering back into the autobiographical/fiction/fact/"why not say what really happened" thread. (And I can't resist: what about the Robert Lowell book, "The Dolphin," which created such a scandal when it was published because it was about him leaving his wife and child for another woman, and used Elizabeth Hardwick's actual letters to him ((as well as at least some notes and phrases from his future wife))? Yet Lowell deliberately rearranged the chronological events to make a better story within the book, as Sexton apparently did with "Live or Die," her Pulitzer-prize winning book. But who is going to know this without reading Lowell's or Sexton's biographies? And how is a "character" with your name and experiences different from you standing in for yourself?) Apart from all that, Sam does show a wonderful Alec Guinness-like ability to speak near-perfectly in the voices of others, and that is another reason to buy his book, which is one of the most packed and rewarding volumes I have read in a long time. (Plug, plug.) Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From aprentiss Wed May 2 13:21:11 2001 From: aprentiss (Amber Prentiss) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 13:21:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] When first your eye I eyed Message-ID: I don't think he was trying to make the boat. It is the kind of poem that seems to need a broad brush, and it is also a poem that is trying to be equal opportunity offensive. Of course there are poems and poets that escape the handy categories, but subtleties often have to be sacrificed for laughs. -Amber -----Original Message----- From: Paul Lake To: New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 5/2/2001 1:49 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] When first your eye I eyed >The New Formalist Poem: Forty well-crafted, rhymed and metered lines >specifically about me which I insist are also specifically about you. Greg Glazner has clearly missed the boat on this one. Below are two poems by Sam Gwynn lifted from the link he provided yesterday. They're both exemplary in being about something beside the poet. Paul Lake At Rose's Range Old Gladys, in lime polyester slacks, Might rate a laugh until she puts her weight Squarely behind the snubnosed .38, Draws down and pulls. The bulldog muzzle cracks And barks six times, and six black daisies flower Dead in the heart of Saddam's silhouette. She turns aside, empties, reloads, gets set And fires again. This goes on for an hour. Later, we pass the time at the front door Where she sits smoking, waiting for the friend Who drives her places after dark: _You know, Earl's free next month. He says he wants some more Of what she's got, and she's my daughter so I reckon there's just one way this can end_. Why They Love Us ?????????????????????? Vanna, 1987?-1995 Dogs love us uncomplainingly because They see us in a way we never do. They don't have sense enough to see our flaws The way we fear our lovers' fangs and claws. Blondi loved Hitler; Checkers, Nixon too. They love us uncomplainingly because When swatted with the news for muddy paws Or chewing on that Bruno Magli shoe They don't have sense enough to see our flaws. We live by common sense and logic's laws: With dogs, forget it. Even if they knew They love us uncomplainingly because They're idiots, they still won't drop their jaws And say, "Duh, you were mean to me. We're through." They don't have sense enough to see our flaws. Thank god for that. A big round of applause For what can sniff your ass and still love you. Dogs love us uncomplainingly because They don't have sense enough to see our flaws. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From moira_russell Wed May 2 13:28:50 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 09:28:50 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon Message-ID: I also appreciated David's quoting of the essay and provision of URLs, but enjoy Bloom a bit more; he is stunningly knowledgeable, and quite good in some areas, but I'm also quite aware he is, at the least, idiosyncratic, and his judgements limited (and this from someone on the unfashionable side of the Great Books camp). I read him the same way I read Yvor Winters and Randall Jarrell: I like the way he expresses himself, he makes me think, and he provides me with at the least thought-provoking ideas even if I find some of them, well, at least odd. But I really don't accept him as an "authority" -- and actually, while reading through the Great Books program itself at St. John's College, you aren't encouraged to see the literature as a single hegemonic thing filled with Authorities buttressing each other, like uniform bricks building up a wall each with exactly the same contribution. A tradition which includes everyone from Chaucer to Eliot and Shakespeare to Ibsen is diverse, too, which I think is something which gets overlooked sometimes in debates about the Canon. I actually found English studies in graduate school more stifling than progressive, and much less welcome towards free thought than my Great Books college -- for instance, there was the professor who taught a Dickens upper-level seminar and insisted on reading each and every novel, chapter, scene and word through Freud-colored glasses. That became more than a little tiresome, and even baffling, especially towards "A Christmas Carroll." Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From paul.lake Wed May 2 02:27:35 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 01:27:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens Message-ID: When the Stevens essay appeared in the Stevens journal, I heard from a few people concerning what I said. But the article is too narrow to describe my overall feelings about Stevens, which are more complex than those in the essay. I'd argue with the essay myself. There are aspects of Stevens' work I greatly admire, including his ability to illuminate abstractions. Lately, I feel less and less like writing criticism. My plan is to finish a few ideas off and then focus exclusively on poetry. Paul Lake From BobGrumman Wed May 2 13:41:03 2001 From: BobGrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 13:41:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] My Splash References: Message-ID: <3AF046AF.3108@nut-n-but.net> Amber Prentiss wrote: "Hey, Bob, you're moving on up, unless there's another Bob Grumman running around in the poetry world." As far as I know, there's only one Bob Grumman in America. "Grumman" is an uncommon surname here, though I believe more common in England. Anyway, thanks for letting me know of my big splash. I agree that Poet's Market isn't of the greatest value, but editors ARE asked to supply a short poem as a sample of what they're looking for, which seems a good idea to me, though not too helpful for editors like me who like visual poems. If they defined Schools of Poetry, and then classified publications by schools of poetry, it'd help. (Couldn't resist another salvo about what may be my main cause.) Dustbooks has a similar but much more thorough book of poetry markets--but how helpful it could be, who knows. One good thing about being mostly interested in a kind of poetry not much practiced is that it was easy for me to connect with publishers of it when I started out trying to get poems into print in the eighties. --Bob G. You're excerpted in the mostly useless Poet's > Market 2001 for a magazine whose name I can't remember but will be sure to > look for later. > > Still, it's a mostly useless book. If I actually bought a sample of every > magazine I've pondered submitting to, I'd be out hundreds of dollars. It's > not my fault that I can usually find only horrible lit magazines and/or ones > so famous that they are flooded with submissions. Bleh.. Anyway, if you > didn't know, you do now. > > -Amber From moira_russell Wed May 2 13:46:05 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 09:46:05 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens Message-ID: Probably writing more poetry, less criticism, is a good thing....even generally speaking....one poem probably does Humanity more good than a thousand critics, Pope notwithstanding. I must admit I never "got" Stevens, as I find it hard to emotionally connect to his poems and occasionally his style seems mannered. Among poets of that period (I just mean formal poetry mainly during the 50s), I actually prefer Anthony Hecht, or some Richard Wilbur. However I think Stevens is like Auden -- anyone writing poetry now has to reckon with him, so to speak. Could you maybe point me towards some of your favorite Stevens poems? I always feel when I read him I'm missing something. yrs moi >When the Stevens essay appeared in the Stevens journal, I heard from a few >people concerning what I said. But the article is too narrow to describe >my >overall feelings about Stevens, which are more complex than those in the >essay. I'd argue with the essay myself. There are aspects of Stevens' >work >I greatly admire, including his ability to illuminate abstractions. >Lately, >I feel less and less like writing criticism. My plan is to finish a few >ideas off and then focus exclusively on poetry. > >Paul Lake > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From aprentiss Wed May 2 13:52:24 2001 From: aprentiss (Amber Prentiss) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 13:52:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] My Splash Message-ID: Bob, I really, really meant this to be off-channel. -Amber -----Original Message----- From: Bob Grumman To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 5/2/2001 1:41 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] My Splash Amber Prentiss wrote: "Hey, Bob, you're moving on up, unless there's another Bob Grumman running around in the poetry world." As far as I know, there's only one Bob Grumman in America. "Grumman" is an uncommon surname here, though I believe more common in England. Anyway, thanks for letting me know of my big splash. I agree that Poet's Market isn't of the greatest value, but editors ARE asked to supply a short poem as a sample of what they're looking for, which seems a good idea to me, though not too helpful for editors like me who like visual poems. If they defined Schools of Poetry, and then classified publications by schools of poetry, it'd help. (Couldn't resist another salvo about what may be my main cause.) Dustbooks has a similar but much more thorough book of poetry markets--but how helpful it could be, who knows. One good thing about being mostly interested in a kind of poetry not much practiced is that it was easy for me to connect with publishers of it when I started out trying to get poems into print in the eighties. --Bob G. You're excerpted in the mostly useless Poet's > Market 2001 for a magazine whose name I can't remember but will be sure to > look for later. > > Still, it's a mostly useless book. If I actually bought a sample of every > magazine I've pondered submitting to, I'd be out hundreds of dollars. It's > not my fault that I can usually find only horrible lit magazines and/or ones > so famous that they are flooded with submissions. Bleh.. Anyway, if you > didn't know, you do now. > > -Amber _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From paul.lake Wed May 2 02:51:03 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 01:51:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens Message-ID: Stevens is of the great Modernist generation, born in 1879, before Eliot, Pound and Williams and 28 years before Auden. Though he wrote a lot of blank verse, he also wrote Modernist free verse. The poets of Hecht's generation, who wrote the formal verse of the 50's, are much less experimental, in a sense a reaction against high Modernism. Holly Steven's, the poet's daughter put together a good cheap selection of Stevens' poems called *The Palm at the End of the Mind,* a good place to start. Paul Lake From moira_russell Wed May 2 14:08:01 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 10:08:01 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens Message-ID: Phew, I didn't know he was that old. For some reason my mind always mashes together Stevens-Wilbur-Hecht -- perhaps the effect of reading too many anthologies. It seems I always see "Sunday Morning" right before Wilbur's frog-with-a-hobbling-hop poem, for example. I've certainly seen the book around and will pick it up, maybe as a complement to the huge Merrill book I've been immersed in. But didn't you say you saw Stevens more as a late, late Romantic than a Modernist? Moira Russell Seattle, WA Paul wrote: >Stevens is of the great Modernist generation, born in 1879, before Eliot, >Pound and Williams and 28 years before Auden. Though he wrote a lot of >blank verse, he also wrote Modernist free verse. The poets of Hecht's >generation, who wrote the formal verse of the 50's, are much less >experimental, in a sense a reaction against high Modernism. Holly >Steven's, the poet's daughter put together a good cheap selection of >Stevens' poems called *The Palm at the End of the Mind,* a good place to >start. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From Jholmes Wed May 2 14:33:02 2001 From: Jholmes (Janet Holmes) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 12:33:02 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens, Gwynn, Anastasios, etc. Message-ID: Russ, all wonderful Stevens poems, but for my money "Two Figures in Dense Violet Night" and "Long and Sluggish Lines" need to be on the list too, as well as his wonderful titles ("Tea at the Palaz of Hoon," "The Curtains in the House of the Metaphysician," "The Revolutionists Stop for Orangeade," etc.). Re: Sam Gwynn--of course his poems aren't about himself. Not for nothing did he write "The Narcissiad," which is about almost everybody else! And a long way back, in response to Anastasios's comment "I think that the 'contests' and 'fellowships' etc. make people aim their poetry at a certain poetry reading population/segment, which compromises integrity. Perhaps, I am way off base here, but it is always fascinating to me to who wins what and why. I think sometimes the economics dictate aesthetics and dilute integrity." I'm writing a talk on specifically this topic right now, and I do agree with you; I'd go so far as to say that the yearning of poets to publish in journals and anthologies also dictates the length and structure of many poems. But as editor of a press that is just instituting a contest with the hope of discovering new or underrecognized writers, I'm not willing to go so far as to decry all literary competitions. Sure, we all know of cases in which contests were won by friends or lovers of the judges (I lost two such when seeking to place my first book, though one judge sent me a "letter of encouragement" through the contest administrators separately) or former students, or whatever. Poets are just as tawdry as other humans. But I don't think one can paint contests and fellowships as necessarily bereft of integrity. (Can't afford to--nearly everything I have in print is the result of an anonymous competition.) I used to think that self-publishing was also a bad idea, but can now appreciate that it may be the only way for an "unpopular" or unusual kind of writing to see print at all (cf. Whitman, Virginia Woolf, etc.). Most will fade away unnoticed, but thank goodness for the work that really *was* genius a bit too extraordinary to surface through the usual methods. Janet Holmes ("Grade papers? Read posts? Grade papers? Read posts?") From moira_russell Wed May 2 15:10:17 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 11:10:17 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] A genuine request Message-ID: Janet, if you or anyone else could possibly "unpack" (as they say) "The Idea of Order at Key West" for me even a little bit, I'd greatly appreciate it. My reaction to that poem is still a barbaric, "What?" Or maybe suggest an easier poem to start off with. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From jdavis Wed May 2 15:22:24 2001 From: jdavis (Jordan Davis) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 15:22:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] the 20th In-Reply-To: Message-ID: All respect to Russ MacKechnie's pointing to Stevens (if I had to sum up 20th century American poetry, Stevens's _Collected_ would be one of the books I'd have on any list longer than three). Jordan From anastasios Wed May 2 15:45:06 2001 From: anastasios (Anastasios Kozaitis) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 15:45:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] the 20th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010502154414.00ac4480@mail.verizon.net> Meaning that Stevens' *Collected* is your 4th pick in the 1st round, Jordan? What would be your first 3 picks? At 03:22 PM 5/2/01, you wrote: >All respect to Russ MacKechnie's pointing to Stevens (if I had to sum up >20th century American poetry, Stevens's _Collected_ would be one of the >books I'd have on any list longer than three). Jordan > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From moira_russell Wed May 2 15:48:05 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 11:48:05 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] The State of Poetry Message-ID: This may be just another addition to Amber's "why-does-modern-poetry-suck" list of articles, but I found it interesting, particularly the suggestion "poets must stop writing poetry for a time. Poets with laureates, sinecures of creative writing, and other epaulets of official verse culture must resign their commissions, withholding their services until poetry matters," which matches up with the webdelsol demand that poets such as Mary Oliver Just Stop Writing. There seems to be a zero-sum mentality at work here: If Mary Oliver publishes, another (presumably more worthy) poet will not. http://www.citypaper.com/2001-04-11/books.html Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From cstroffo Wed May 2 15:24:20 2001 From: cstroffo (chris stroffolino) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 15:24:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon References: <200105021657.MAA13757@dept.english.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <3AF05EE2.D07B7BBE@earthlink.net> Michael--- Isn't this a little bit reductive? Yes, Freud is there...but not as much as some make of it...It's just one aspect, and often balanced by his interest in Nietzsche and Emerson... Chris Michael Magee wrote: > David, thanks very much for this. I've been, along the way, a very > serious reader of Bloom, particularly AGON, but I've read it all. Yes > he's erudite, abjectly so. And the idea of Bloom as agendaless is beyond > dumb. Anyone who knows AGON well, to say nothing of THE ANXIETY OF > INFLUENCE and A MAP OF MISREADING, knows that Freud looms behind all, > informs every aesthetic choice, every literary family tree drawn, every > description of tradition and the individual talent. For "influences" > there's the early Freud; for properly deconstructive, "radical" readings > of texts there's the Freud of BEYOND THE PLEASURE PRINCIPLE. It's all a > little bit interesting, tho more predictable the more you wade into it. > But ultimately it feels too much like a Victorian parlor game for me, or a > rather sophisticated game of Jeopardy, if you like. And as you say, the > number of great writers he can't read at all would fill a very large book. > > -m. > > According to David Graham: > > > For what it's worth, I was thinking specifically not of Bloom's *The > > Western Canon* but of his diatribe, "They have the numbers; we, the > > heights," which introduced his Best of the Best American antho. > > > > That essay is available online, along with a number of responses to it: > > > > http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR23.2/bloom.html > > > > I'm amazed by Bloom's erudition, too. And I've found him an invaluable > > critic of the Romantics. > > > > But from where I sit, his taste in contemporary poetry is uncomfortably > > narrow, since it excludes a great deal of poetry that I admire. I > > particularly like what David Mura said in response to Bloom's essay: > > > > http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR23.3/mura.html > > > > Here are the opening paragraph's of Mura's essay: > > > > _____________________ > > In the world according to Harold Bloom, there are those who occupy the > > heights of objective judgment and the barbarians below. Or, as Bloom would > > have it, what he reads with pleasure and profit must possess lasting > > aesthetic value. Those who do not see that value have been blinded to the > > true purpose of literature by a political or ideological agenda. In > > contrast, Bloom's judgment has nothing to do with his race, gender, sexual > > orientation, ethnic origin, or politics. He possesses no extra-literary > > agenda, no personal biases. If we point out that all the writers he holds > > up in admiration are white and most of them male, we are replacing > > objective literary criteria with sociology. > > > > I am not convinced that Bloom's sight is so unequivocally accurate and > > god-like. When he proclaims that his opponents are entirely preoccupied > > with the race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnic origin, and political > > purpose of the would-be poet, I see either a misunderstanding or a > > mischaracterization of their arguments. Characteristics such as race and > > gender surely suggest areas of study that might aid in understanding and > > evaluating a poet. Moreover, for certain poets, such study might be > > required to appreciate fully their aesthetic value. It does not follow that > > matters of technique or analyses of form should be dismissed or denied > > preeminent importance-though even here one might certainly find instances > > where the forms a poet employs derive from aspects in their background. > > > > At the same time, Bloom would probably maintain that the critic's own > > background or identity ought to be irrelevant. Or at least, that his must > > be. Perhaps Harold Bloom is special. But for myself and every other critic > > I've encountered, such factors are relevant. It's not a question of whether > > we carry prejudices and blinders within our psyches, but what kind. But I > > suppose that for Harold Bloom, I'm just one of those (critics and poets) > > who have politicized literature and broken from that Edenic paradise where > > literature possessed no political designs or effects and existed in a > > separate realm altogether. > > > > According to Bloom, remnants of that apolitical period existed before the > > onslaught of the sixties and the resulting deterioration of culture. Yet > > even in the late seventies, when I was a graduate student, the curriculum I > > studied would have probably met Harold Bloom's approval. Other than a > > handful of poems by Amiri Baraka, all the poets were white, and the > > overwhelming majority were white males. According to Bloom, then, I studied > > the apolitical canon. That's not how I remember it. Certain professors and > > critics such as James Dickey implied or explicitly stated that women were > > less capable than men of writing great literature (the logic here: if women > > were more capable, then of course we'd be studying them). Similarly, I was > > told outright and subtly that to identify myself as an Japanese American or > > Asian American writer or a writer of color was to relegate myself to a > > literary ghetto-- to enter literature through a back door affirmative > > action program. This only reinforced the cultural lessons I had learned > > growing up in an all white suburb, wanting to assimilate and erase my > > difference, wanting to disassociate myself from other Japanese-Americans or > > people of color. I told myself I wanted to be judged as an individual, for > > my own merits. What I knew subconsciously was that I really wanted to be > > white. And nothing in my literary training through grad school ever led me > > to question this desire or enabled me to formulate any other understanding > > of my identity. > > _______________________________ > > > > David Graham > > > > >It happens I'm reading Bloom's book right now, and I'm > > >totally engrossed at the enormous breadth of his reading, > > >understanding, and ability to make sweeping comparisons and > > >crossreferences, and to communicate his enthusiasms clearly > > >and gracefully. > > > > > >I'm just amazed that David Graham can use words like > > >"poverty of imagination" and "ludicrous" when speaking of > > >Harold Bloom. > > > > > > > > >David Graham wrote: > > >>>In this regard, the poverty of imagination in a critic like Harold Bloom is > > >>>really stunning, I think. He has no ears for so many different kinds of > > >>>contemporary poetry (especially those based in the oral tradition) that his > > >>>particular brand of elitism just seems ludicrous. > > >>> > > > > > >Richard > > > > > > __________________ > > David Graham > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > __________________ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd Wed May 2 17:08:32 2001 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 16:08:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: According to the most recent Gallup Poll, "A Rabbit as King of the Ghosts" is one of my top 3 Stevens poems, too. The others are "The Snow Man" and "Tea at the Palaz of Hoon." Under torture, I might name "The Snow Man" as my favorite lyric of all time. . . . I first encountered Stevens one summer during college, when I was blessed with a perfect job: tour guide at a historic site that was not very popular. So I had a lot of time between tours to read *The Palm at the End of the Mind*. The first month I just savored Stevens's titles. The second month I read *Harmonium*. The third month I was in despair, and decided never to read poetry again. Poetry can be dangerous. As for cronyism: like Janet Holmes, I have been a slush pile success in terms of getting myself into print without benefit of great contacts. Not that I would have turned such a thing down--it's just that none of my former teachers ever asked! David Graham _________________ THE SNOW MAN One must have a mind of winter To regard the frost and the boughs Of the pine-trees crusted with snow; And have been cold a long time To behold the junipers shagged with ice, The spruces rough in the distant glitter Of the January sun; and not to think Of any misery in the sound of the wind, In the sound of a few leaves, Which is the sound of the land Full of the same wind That is blowing in the same bare place For the listener, who listens in the snow, And, nothing himself, beholds Nothing that is not there and the nothing that is. __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From mmagee Wed May 2 17:22:11 2001 From: mmagee (Michael Magee) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 17:22:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon In-Reply-To: <3AF05EE2.D07B7BBE@earthlink.net> from "chris stroffolino" at May 2, 2001 03:24:20 pm Message-ID: <200105022122.RAA05779@dept.english.upenn.edu> According to chris stroffolino: > > Michael--- > > Isn't this a little bit reductive? Yes, Freud is there...but not as much as some > make of it...It's just one aspect, and often balanced by his interest in Nietzsche > and Emerson... Chris, sure it's a bit reductive, how could it not be? But the spirit of it's right I think. If we say, for the sake of argument, that Freud plus Emerson plus Nietszche equals Bloom (saving for another time Emerson's deep influence on Nietzsche and Nietzsche's on Freud which only complicates matters) then Bloom's renderings of Emerson become an interesting case in point. Bloom inaugurates (along w/ Cavell) the connection between Emerson and post-structuralism in the critical discourse, calling the tactic by which Emerson links the contingency of his selfhood to the contingency of his prose, "evasion." Bloom says, counter-intuitively, that evasion is "the center" of Emerson?s philosophy, and that this evasion accounts for the fact that "no two disciples can agree upon Emerson's doctrine." For Bloom, Emerson's motive for such evasion is a will to agonistic misreading so deeply felt that it extends to what he believes to be his prior selves. Again, Bloom makes it pretty clear that he's borrowed this notion from BEYOND THE PLEASURE PRINCIPLE, "the Freud who establishes the priority of anxiety over its stimuli," as Bloom puts it. That is a really limited/limiting (if also sometimes interesting) reading of Emerson which, among other things, de-politicizes his work (surprise, surprise). For instance, I would argue (and incidentally, do argue in the latest issue of _Raritan_ if any of this sounds interesting) that Emerson's evasion is a will to collaboration based on the democratic structure of language, a will to foster proactively creative reading where any resolution of meaning is based on contextualized "respect to the present hour." I draw this distinction regarding Emerson's motive because it is directly related to his social activism in a way which challenges almost all of our received ideas about Emerson as canonical literary figure. I can only imagine that Bloom, since he already has his narrative in hand, wouldn't have any time for a view of Emerson which foregrounded his abolitionism as central to his aesthetic. I mean, hell, we might find out that his chief influence was not Goethe but Margaret Fuller and Frederick Douglass! Of course its not the fact that Bloom's views are wrong that's the problem. All of our views, after all, are wrong. It's that Bloom claims in a variety of subtle and not-so-subtle ways that his views are right, central and everlasting. Strange thing, that. -m. From BobGrumman Wed May 2 17:22:51 2001 From: BobGrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 17:22:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon References: <200105021657.MAA13757@dept.english.upenn.edu> <3AF05EE2.D07B7BBE@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3AF07AAB.603@nut-n-but.net> Chris, To be really reductive about Bloom (note to Marcus: just for fun), I'd say that in his theology of poetry, Emerson may be Bloom's father, but Freud is God--and Shakespeare is his only begotten Son. --Bob G. chris stroffolino wrote: > > Michael--- > > Isn't this a little bit reductive? Yes, Freud is there...but not as much as some > make of it...It's just one aspect, and often balanced by his interest in Nietzsche > and Emerson... > > Chris From BobGrumman Wed May 2 17:29:18 2001 From: BobGrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 17:29:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The State of Poetry References: Message-ID: <3AF07C2E.4BBF@nut-n-but.net> Moira Russell wrote: > > This may be just another addition to Amber's "why-does-modern-poetry-suck" > list of articles, but I found it interesting, particularly the suggestion > "poets must stop writing poetry for a time. Poets with laureates, sinecures > of creative writing, and other epaulets of official verse culture must > resign their commissions, withholding their services until poetry matters," I like this concept. To me, the idea behind it is that if certified poets stop writing, then (horrors) academic and commercial publishers of poetry will suddenly have to start reading poetry and choosing whom to publish rather than just gong by reputation. Might do them good. I suspect, though, that we'd just get imitations of certified poets, which would be a step down. (Again, for those quick to misread me, I'm not against certified poets, some of whom I consider very good; I'm just against their being nearly the only poets being given prizes, publication, recognition, etc.) --Bob G. From paul.lake Wed May 2 06:25:05 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 05:25:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Western Canon Message-ID: >Of course its not the fact that Bloom's views are wrong that's the >problem. All of our views, after all, are wrong. It's that Bloom claims >in a variety of subtle and not-so-subtle ways that his views are right, >central and everlasting. "All of our views, after all, are wrong." Including this one? Paul Lake From mmagee Wed May 2 17:37:45 2001 From: mmagee (Michael Magee) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 17:37:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Western Canon In-Reply-To: from "Paul Lake" at May 2, 2001 05:25:05 am Message-ID: <200105022137.RAA09546@dept.english.upenn.edu> According to Paul Lake: > > "All of our views, after all, are wrong." > > Including this one? > > > Paul Lake > Paul, yes, in- cluding this one -m. From paul.lake Wed May 2 06:33:53 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 05:33:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Western Canon In-Reply-To: <200105022137.RAA09546@dept.english.upenn.edu> Message-ID: on 5/2/01 4:37 PM, Michael Magee at mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu wrote: > > According to Paul Lake: >> >> "All of our views, after all, are wrong." >> >> Including this one? >> >> >> Paul Lake >> > > Paul, yes, in- > cluding this > one > > -m. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > You don't see a paradox (the Cretan liar paradox, specifically) in statements like the following? "All statements, including this one, are wrong." Paul Lake From moira_russell Wed May 2 17:42:37 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 13:42:37 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] The State of Poetry Message-ID: Bob wrote: >"poets must stop writing poetry for a time. > >I like this concept. I admit it unnerves me. I don't particularly like....let's see....John Updike, but would I want to zap him and thunder "NO MORE BOOKS EVER"? It seems sort of churlish. Is the American poetry scene really so limited that if Mary Oliver wins a prize, there will be no room for someone else? -- Could be, given I know next to nothing about it. But I'm just seeing this suggestion pop up more and more and it seems odd. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From BobGrumman Wed May 2 17:58:00 2001 From: BobGrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 17:58:00 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The State of Poetry References: Message-ID: <3AF082E8.30F7@nut-n-but.net> > >"poets must stop writing poetry for a time. > > >I like this concept. > > I admit it unnerves me. I don't particularly like....let's > see....John Updike, but would I want to zap him and > thunder "NO MORE BOOKS EVER"? It seems sort of churlish. > Is the American poetry scene really so limited that > if Mary Oliver wins a prize, there will be no room > for someone else? -- Well, I said "for a time," not "forever," which would be just a little unfair. And, of course, it's not just Mary Oliver's winning a prize, but--basically--no one but certified poets like Mary Oliver's winning all the (visible) prizes (almost). Moreover, this is clearly not a serious proposal since no one would really want to put it into effect, or be able to. --Bob G. > Could be, given I know next to nothing about it. But I'm just seeing this > suggestion pop up more and more and it seems odd. From halvard Wed May 2 18:40:08 2001 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 18:40:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The State of Poetry In-Reply-To: <3AF082E8.30F7@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Some already do. John Ashbery, for example. Seems to me he said somewhere some years ago that he writes only on Fridays so as not to flood the market. (Or was it that he *doesn't* write on Fridays?) Hal "The time for standing to one side is near now, very near." --John Ashbery Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson > > >"poets must stop writing poetry for a time. > > > >I like this concept. > > > > I admit it unnerves me. I don't particularly like....let's > > see....John Updike, but would I want to zap him and > > thunder "NO MORE BOOKS EVER"? It seems sort of churlish. > > Is the American poetry scene really so limited that > > if Mary Oliver wins a prize, there will be no room > > for someone else? -- > > Well, I said "for a time," not "forever," which would > be just a little unfair. And, of course, it's not just > Mary Oliver's winning a prize, but--basically--no one but > certified poets like Mary Oliver's winning all the (visible) > prizes (almost). Moreover, this is clearly not a serious > proposal since no one would really want to put it into > effect, or be able to. > > --Bob G. > > > > Could be, given I know next to nothing about it. But I'm just seeing this > > suggestion pop up more and more and it seems odd. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From mbales Wed May 2 18:54:12 2001 From: mbales (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 18:54:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon In-Reply-To: <200105022122.RAA05779@dept.english.upenn.edu> References: <3AF05EE2.D07B7BBE@earthlink.net> from "chris stroffolino" at May 2, 2001 03:24:20 pm Message-ID: Michael Magee: > Of course its not the fact that Bloom's views are wrong that's the > problem. All of our views, after all, are wrong. It's that Bloom > claims in a variety of subtle and not-so-subtle ways that his views > are right, central and everlasting. Strange thing, that.<< What's so strange about claiming one's views are right? Do you seek out wrong views to hold and disseminate? If you believe your views to be wrong, do you fall silent in all instances, then, for fear that you might promulgate wrong views to others? And if you believe your views are wrong, on what possible grounds, other than a seeking-out of contrary right views (e.g., if you don't know how to say a word, say it loud, and someone who knows will correct you) do you utter your wrong views? And, if you utter your wrong views hoping someone with right views will correct you, on what grounds do you object, if you object, to others' views? In short, what are the standards of right views and wrong views to which you'd subscribe? Marcus mbales at cybergate.net From wasanthony Wed May 2 18:53:45 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 15:53:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] The State of Poetry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010502225345.99425.qmail@web12102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Moira Russell wrote: > Bob wrote: > > >"poets must stop writing poetry for a time. > > >I like this concept. > > I admit it unnerves me. I don't particularly like....let's > see....John > Updike, but would I want to zap him and thunder "NO MORE BOOKS EVER"? > It > seems sort of churlish. Is the American poetry scene really so > limited that > if Mary Oliver wins a prize, there will be no room for someone else? > -- > Could be, given I know next to nothing about it. But I'm just seeing > this > suggestion pop up more and more and it seems odd. > I wonder if it originated with a poet or a critic, or a poet who hasn't been able to write? It certainly wasn't Lyn Lifshin. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From mmagee Wed May 2 18:55:33 2001 From: mmagee (Michael Magee) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 18:55:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon In-Reply-To: from "Marcus Bales" at May 2, 2001 06:54:12 pm Message-ID: <200105022255.SAA23846@dept.english.upenn.edu> Marcus, and this would respond I think to Paul as well, my phrase was not simply "right" but "right, central and everlasting." Big difference, it seems to me. Bloom wants the universal - he might dodge the issue but it remains, for me at least, as a reader of his work (this, I think is the source of Bob's joke about Freud being God.) As for Paul's question about the paradoxical nature of a stament like "All statements are wrong, including this one" - a Platonist might concern himself with ironing out paradoxes and contradictions, not me. To say that every stament is wrong is simply to say that every "right" statement becomes wrong in the course of time or through a shift in space (context). In the immortal words of the theme song from Different Strokes (slightly altered), "What might be right for Bloom / may not be right for some..." -m. According to Marcus Bales: > > Michael Magee: > > Of course its not the fact that Bloom's views are wrong that's the > > problem. All of our views, after all, are wrong. It's that Bloom > > claims in a variety of subtle and not-so-subtle ways that his views > > are right, central and everlasting. Strange thing, that.<< > > What's so strange about claiming one's views are right? Do you > seek out wrong views to hold and disseminate? If you believe your > views to be wrong, do you fall silent in all instances, then, for fear > that you might promulgate wrong views to others? > > And if you believe your views are wrong, on what possible grounds, > other than a seeking-out of contrary right views (e.g., if you don't > know how to say a word, say it loud, and someone who knows will > correct you) do you utter your wrong views? > > And, if you utter your wrong views hoping someone with right views > will correct you, on what grounds do you object, if you object, to > others' views? > > In short, what are the standards of right views and wrong views to > which you'd subscribe? > > Marcus > > > > > > > mbales at cybergate.net > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From wasanthony Wed May 2 18:56:41 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 15:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010502225641.87616.qmail@web12107.mail.yahoo.com> --- Marcus Bales wrote: > Michael Magee: > > Of course its not the fact that Bloom's views are wrong that's the > > problem. All of our views, after all, are wrong. It's that Bloom > > claims in a variety of subtle and not-so-subtle ways that his views > > are right, central and everlasting. Strange thing, that.<< > > What's so strange about claiming one's views are right? Do you > seek out wrong views to hold and disseminate? If you believe your > views to be wrong, do you fall silent in all instances, then, for > fear > that you might promulgate wrong views to others? > > And if you believe your views are wrong, on what possible grounds, > other than a seeking-out of contrary right views (e.g., if you don't > know how to say a word, say it loud, and someone who knows will > correct you) do you utter your wrong views? > > And, if you utter your wrong views hoping someone with right views > will correct you, on what grounds do you object, if you object, to > others' views? > > In short, what are the standards of right views and wrong views to > which you'd subscribe? > Marcus: There are right views, left views, forward views, and then the one in the rear-view mirror. Best to check them all before you proceed. - Jim, safe driver ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From mbales Wed May 2 20:20:06 2001 From: mbales (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 20:20:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon In-Reply-To: <200105022255.SAA23846@dept.english.upenn.edu> References: from "Marcus Bales" at May 2, 2001 06:54:12 pm Message-ID: Mike Magee: > ... my phrase was > not simply "right" but "right, central and everlasting." Big > difference, it seems to me. Bloom wants the universal...<< I'll grant a small difference, but not a big one, on the grounds that "...and everlasting" is clearly hyperbole on your part. I grant that Bloom thinks he's right and that his right opinions are "central" -- but only for his contemporary audience. I think he's smart enough both to know his opinions are not "everlasting" and not to claim it, either. That he "wants the universal" I'll agree to -- if you'll allow Bloom (and me) the context of "the contemporary universal". I think Bloom, for all that he's accused of, is wrongly accused when he is accused of wanting to replace all opinion, past present and future, with his own. I'll grant that he uses strong language to express strong opinions, but not that he thereby insists that his opinions are right now then and always. So, it seems to me, we're back to the question: do you hold, or advocate that others hold, or ought to hold, wrong tangential opinions on purpose to make sure that you're never accused of trying to hold "right, central" ones? Or do you go so far as to hold, or advocate that others hold, or ought to hold, wrong, tangential and ephemeral opinions just to avoid being accused of trying to hold "right, central, everlasting" ones? Mike Magee: > ... To say that every stament is wrong is simply > to say that every "right" statement becomes wrong in the course of > time or through a shift in space (context).<< I disagree: to say "Every statement is wrong" is a different thing from saying "Every right statement becomes wrong through shifts in time or context". The former abandons pretty explicitly not only right statement but even the hope of right statements, while the latter allows for contingent rightness in context. Marcus mbales at cybergate.net From mackechnie Wed May 2 20:17:49 2001 From: mackechnie (Russ MacKechnie) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 20:17:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens, Gwynn, Anastasios, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Russ, all wonderful Stevens poems, but for my money "Two Figures >in Dense Violet Night" and "Long and Sluggish Lines" need to be on >the list too, as well as his wonderful titles ("Tea at the Palaz of Hoon," >"The Curtains in the House of the Metaphysician," "The Revolutionists >Stop for Orangeade," etc.). Gee, Janet, why stop there then? There are other *musts*: "Of Mere Being"; "The Man on the Dump"; "Peter Quince at the Clavier"; "The Poems of Our Climate"; "The Idea of Order at Key West"; "Floral Decorations for Bananas" (who said Stevens couldn't be exquisitely erotic?); and the poem that boasts one of the most exotic of all poem titles---no one holds a candle [even a Valley Candle] to Stevens's when it comes to title-making---and two of the finest lines in all of poetry ("Snow sparkles like eyesight falling to earth,/ Like seeing fallen brightly away."): "No Possum, No Sop, No Taters." But wait a minute. Maybe it's *three* of the finest lines in all of poetry ("A pool shines,/ Like a bracelet/ Shaken in a dance.): "Six Significant Landscapes." Hold on, though, maybe it's *four*. . . . Anyway, the man who wrote that "Poetry is a form of redemption" goes about as far as any poet can go in redeeming whoever reads him attentively. "You know then it is not the reason/ That makes us happy or unhappy./ The bird sings. Its feathers shine." Stevens's singing, more than that of any other poet, has made this reader happier than reason ever could, on its most rationale day, in its most reasonable raiment. Those fire-fangled feathers dangling down, those ambiguous undulations, that breath-taking plunge into darkness on extended wings. . . . Russ From wasanthony Wed May 2 20:24:10 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 17:24:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010503002410.93108.qmail@web12107.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Graham wrote: > Under torture, I might name "The Snow > Man" as > my favorite lyric of all time. . . . > > snip > snip > For the listener, who listens in the snow, > And, nothing himself, beholds > Nothing that is not there and the nothing that is. > Well, I can't decide if that would be my choice for "favorite lyric of all time," but that final stanza kept setting off echoes in my mind and I realized that it was because I'd heard/read that move many times. I didn't respond immediately because I couldn't recall examples instantly and didn't have the time to LOOK-THINGS-UP, and I still don't. But, I think we've all seen that move many times. But, my taxed RAM did pull this out of an overloaded MEMORY from Mark Strand's "Keeping Things Whole": In a field I am the absence of field And, once I did that, Strand's lines called up a resonance from W.S. Merwin, but I haven't looked up an example. Perhaps those of you who have the talent to recall these things instantly can recall echoes of Stevens' move in that stanza. Anyway, I think Stevens' stanza gave birth to a modern and post-modern conceit. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From eselinge Wed May 2 21:29:57 2001 From: eselinge (Eric Selinger) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 20:29:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens and Emotion Message-ID: Like Moira, I had trouble connecting with Stevens' work on any emotional level, heart or gut or giggle, until I read (speaking of the Value of Criticism), Helen Vendler's little collection of essays on WS, "Words Chosen Out of Desire," especially the essay "Stevens' Secrecies." After that, I found he often packed an extraordinary wallop, & tried to write about what exactly that wallop consists of--where it comes from, how it works--in my book on love in American poetry. A good case of a good critic (and I do think HV is often very good & useful, at least in her shorter essays and lectures) bringing work to life for a reader, which is one of the job's greener and more pleasant tasks. EMS From mackechnie Wed May 2 22:10:36 2001 From: mackechnie (Russ MacKechnie) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 22:10:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens and Emotion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Eric Selinger writes: > Like Moira, I had trouble connecting with Stevens' work on > any emotional level, heart or gut or giggle, until I read > (speaking of the Value of Criticism), Helen Vendler's little > collection of essays on WS, "Words Chosen Out of Desire," > especially the essay "Stevens' Secrecies." After that, I > found he often packed an extraordinary wallop, & tried to > write about what exactly that wallop consists of--where it > comes from, how it works--in my book on love in American > poetry. I, too, think Vendler did every Stevens reader a real service in _Words Chosen Out of Desire_ , a very slim but rewarding volume. I recommend it without reservation to Moira and anyone else interested in getting a preliminary emotional "grip" on the lawyer-poet. David La Guardia's _Advance on Chaos: The Sanctifying Imagination of Wallace Stevens_ is also a superb all-around introduction to the poet (in the not unusual context, for WS, of Emerson and William James). Might I ask, Eric, the title (and publisher) of your book on love in American poetry? I would very much like to read it---and your take on that "extraordinary wallop" that has, it seems, affected us both. Russ From Cadaly Wed May 2 22:11:02 2001 From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 22:11:02 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] 1926 & 1927 Message-ID: I dunno. Cursory search of Granger's: Ingeborg Bachmann Rgds, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin Wed May 2 22:38:06 2001 From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 19:38:06 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon References: Message-ID: <05a801c0d37a$181b7f60$19acefd8@0021936706> I've probably been brainwashed by the establishment and my white professors, but while I find neither Bloom's or Mura's essays satisfactory in that neither attempts to carve out a middle ground, I'm more comfortable with Bloom's pronouncements. As an "ethnic" writer who chooses to eschew the labels that "society" would place upon me, I'm very uncomfortable when someone like David Mura asserts (as he does in another essay) that I am harboring racial self-hatred simply because I don't write poems about my "ethnic experiences," as if they are fundamentally different from the experiences of human beings everywehre. Nothing could be further from the truth. What I resent is the commodification of ethnicity that I see happening around me. Like it or not, a poet who chooses to ground his poetry in identity politics often has a leg up on his white peers, or his fellow ethnics who choose not to focus on identity in their poetry. I've seen this happen, in MFA programs, and within University faculties. And not to belabor a point I've made before, I was told by a "famous poet" that if I didn't shape up and start writing "chicano poems" my funding would be pulled. I didn't, and it was. I wonder how common this experience is. Tony > But from where I sit, his taste in contemporary poetry is uncomfortably > narrow, since it excludes a great deal of poetry that I admire. I > particularly like what David Mura said in response to Bloom's essay: > > http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR23.3/mura.html > > Here are the opening paragraph's of Mura's essay: > > _____________________ > In the world according to Harold Bloom, there are those who occupy the > heights of objective judgment and the barbarians below. Or, as Bloom would > have it, what he reads with pleasure and profit must possess lasting > aesthetic value. Those who do not see that value have been blinded to the > true purpose of literature by a political or ideological agenda. In > contrast, Bloom's judgment has nothing to do with his race, gender, sexual > orientation, ethnic origin, or politics. He possesses no extra-literary > agenda, no personal biases. If we point out that all the writers he holds > up in admiration are white and most of them male, we are replacing > objective literary criteria with sociology. > > I am not convinced that Bloom's sight is so unequivocally accurate and > god-like. When he proclaims that his opponents are entirely preoccupied > with the race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnic origin, and political > purpose of the would-be poet, I see either a misunderstanding or a > mischaracterization of their arguments. Characteristics such as race and > gender surely suggest areas of study that might aid in understanding and > evaluating a poet. Moreover, for certain poets, such study might be > required to appreciate fully their aesthetic value. It does not follow that > matters of technique or analyses of form should be dismissed or denied > preeminent importance-though even here one might certainly find instances > where the forms a poet employs derive from aspects in their background. > > At the same time, Bloom would probably maintain that the critic's own > background or identity ought to be irrelevant. Or at least, that his must > be. Perhaps Harold Bloom is special. But for myself and every other critic > I've encountered, such factors are relevant. It's not a question of whether > we carry prejudices and blinders within our psyches, but what kind. But I > suppose that for Harold Bloom, I'm just one of those (critics and poets) > who have politicized literature and broken from that Edenic paradise where > literature possessed no political designs or effects and existed in a > separate realm altogether. > > According to Bloom, remnants of that apolitical period existed before the > onslaught of the sixties and the resulting deterioration of culture. Yet > even in the late seventies, when I was a graduate student, the curriculum I > studied would have probably met Harold Bloom's approval. Other than a > handful of poems by Amiri Baraka, all the poets were white, and the > overwhelming majority were white males. According to Bloom, then, I studied > the apolitical canon. That's not how I remember it. Certain professors and > critics such as James Dickey implied or explicitly stated that women were > less capable than men of writing great literature (the logic here: if women > were more capable, then of course we'd be studying them). Similarly, I was > told outright and subtly that to identify myself as an Japanese American or > Asian American writer or a writer of color was to relegate myself to a > literary ghetto-- to enter literature through a back door affirmative > action program. This only reinforced the cultural lessons I had learned > growing up in an all white suburb, wanting to assimilate and erase my > difference, wanting to disassociate myself from other Japanese-Americans or > people of color. I told myself I wanted to be judged as an individual, for > my own merits. What I knew subconsciously was that I really wanted to be > white. And nothing in my literary training through grad school ever led me > to question this desire or enabled me to formulate any other understanding > of my identity. > _______________________________ > > David Graham > > >It happens I'm reading Bloom's book right now, and I'm > >totally engrossed at the enormous breadth of his reading, > >understanding, and ability to make sweeping comparisons and > >crossreferences, and to communicate his enthusiasms clearly > >and gracefully. > > > >I'm just amazed that David Graham can use words like > >"poverty of imagination" and "ludicrous" when speaking of > >Harold Bloom. > > > > > >David Graham wrote: > >>>In this regard, the poverty of imagination in a critic like Harold Bloom is > >>>really stunning, I think. He has no ears for so many different kinds of > >>>contemporary poetry (especially those based in the oral tradition) that his > >>>particular brand of elitism just seems ludicrous. > >>> > > > >Richard > > > __________________ > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > __________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From cstroffo Thu May 3 01:48:14 2001 From: cstroffo (chris stroffolino) Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 01:48:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon References: <200105022122.RAA05779@dept.english.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <3AF0F11D.2A8E1C1B@earthlink.net> Yes, Bloom does depoliticize Emerson, as well as Shelley... and even depoliticizes Freud... but there is still a dialectic going on between Emerson's transcendental strain (even if it's reduced and figured as lingustic play and/or troping) and Freud's family drama...I still don't think his interest in the former, and in visionary poetry, is always subordinated to his Freudian elements... Also, as for Bob's comments on Shakespeare and Freud, I like Bloom's quote that "a Freudian reading of Shakespeare" should be eschewed in favor of "a Shakespearean reading of Freud." I don't think Bloom himself achieves that--- but the suggestion can be quite liberating.... also, doesn't there seem to be a contradiction in recent Bloom's championing (and identification with) Falstaff and his taste in much contemporary poetry (in which Bloom seems to act more like Hal/Henry V after he's rejected Falstaff)? chris Michael Magee wrote: > According to chris stroffolino: > > > > Michael--- > > > > Isn't this a little bit reductive? Yes, Freud is there...but not as much as some > > make of it...It's just one aspect, and often balanced by his interest in Nietzsche > > and Emerson... > > Chris, sure it's a bit reductive, how could it not be? But the spirit of > it's right I think. If we say, for the sake of argument, that Freud plus > Emerson plus Nietszche equals Bloom (saving for another time Emerson's > deep influence on Nietzsche and Nietzsche's on Freud which only > complicates matters) then Bloom's renderings of Emerson become an > interesting case in point. Bloom inaugurates (along w/ Cavell) the > connection between Emerson and post-structuralism in the critical > discourse, calling the tactic by which Emerson links the contingency of > his selfhood to the contingency of his prose, "evasion." Bloom says, > counter-intuitively, that evasion is "the center" of Emerson?s philosophy, > and that this evasion accounts for the fact that "no two disciples can > agree upon Emerson's doctrine." For Bloom, Emerson's motive for such > evasion is a will to agonistic misreading so deeply felt that it extends > to what he believes to be his prior selves. Again, Bloom makes it pretty > clear that he's borrowed this notion from BEYOND THE PLEASURE PRINCIPLE, > "the Freud who establishes the priority of anxiety over its stimuli," as > Bloom puts it. That is a really limited/limiting (if also sometimes > interesting) reading of Emerson which, among other things, de-politicizes > his work (surprise, surprise). For instance, I would argue (and > incidentally, do argue in the latest issue of _Raritan_ if any of this > sounds interesting) that Emerson's evasion is a will to collaboration > based on the democratic structure of language, a will to foster > proactively creative reading where any resolution of meaning is based on > contextualized "respect to the present hour." I draw this distinction > regarding Emerson's motive because it is directly related to his social > activism in a way which challenges almost all of our received ideas about > Emerson as canonical literary figure. I can only imagine that Bloom, > since he already has his narrative in hand, wouldn't have any time for a > view of Emerson which foregrounded his abolitionism as central to his > aesthetic. I mean, hell, we might find out that his chief influence was > not Goethe but Margaret Fuller and Frederick Douglass! > > Of course its not the fact that Bloom's views are wrong that's the > problem. All of our views, after all, are wrong. It's that Bloom claims > in a variety of subtle and not-so-subtle ways that his views are right, > central and everlasting. Strange thing, that. > > -m. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From aprentiss Thu May 3 07:31:08 2001 From: aprentiss (Amber Prentiss) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 07:31:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon Message-ID: I'm not necessarily a believer in fundamental human experience (life in Japan ain't life in India ain't life in the UK ain't life in the South ain't life in Alaska), but that's not my point. When was your funding cut off? But that, too, is not my point. This is my point: There's a market. People want to know how the other side lives while the other side wants to see itself represented. It's been my impression that one of the factors driving the Harlem Renaissance was the patronage of wealthy whites who wanted to know what black life was like. Simple curiosity. There's writing about the human experience and the white experience already in English - tons of it, especially if you start literary history in English with Beowulf or earlier, and there's nothing wrong with that. Still, there's not nearly as much about being (or from people who are) black, Chinese, Native American, or gay if you've got the whole of English and American literary history to contend with. In an increasingly closed-off suburban America, literature can be used to connect with cultures you don't know well or at all. I don't think it's so much a value judgement as base curiosity - hey, what's new? What's it like to be [fill-in]? But I don't think that someone ought to be forced to write in a certain mode, especially after the granters ought to have become aware of what the granted likes to do. -Amber -----Original Message----- From: Anthony Robinson To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 5/2/2001 10:38 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon I've probably been brainwashed by the establishment and my white professors, but while I find neither Bloom's or Mura's essays satisfactory in that neither attempts to carve out a middle ground, I'm more comfortable with Bloom's pronouncements. As an "ethnic" writer who chooses to eschew the labels that "society" would place upon me, I'm very uncomfortable when someone like David Mura asserts (as he does in another essay) that I am harboring racial self-hatred simply because I don't write poems about my "ethnic experiences," as if they are fundamentally different from the experiences of human beings everywehre. Nothing could be further from the truth. What I resent is the commodification of ethnicity that I see happening around me. Like it or not, a poet who chooses to ground his poetry in identity politics often has a leg up on his white peers, or his fellow ethnics who choose not to focus on identity in their poetry. I've seen this happen, in MFA programs, and within University faculties. And not to belabor a point I've made before, I was told by a "famous poet" that if I didn't shape up and start writing "chicano poems" my funding would be pulled. I didn't, and it was. I wonder how common this experience is. Tony > But from where I sit, his taste in contemporary poetry is uncomfortably > narrow, since it excludes a great deal of poetry that I admire. I > particularly like what David Mura said in response to Bloom's essay: > > http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR23.3/mura.html > > Here are the opening paragraph's of Mura's essay: > > _____________________ > In the world according to Harold Bloom, there are those who occupy the > heights of objective judgment and the barbarians below. Or, as Bloom would > have it, what he reads with pleasure and profit must possess lasting > aesthetic value. Those who do not see that value have been blinded to the > true purpose of literature by a political or ideological agenda. In > contrast, Bloom's judgment has nothing to do with his race, gender, sexual > orientation, ethnic origin, or politics. He possesses no extra-literary > agenda, no personal biases. If we point out that all the writers he holds > up in admiration are white and most of them male, we are replacing > objective literary criteria with sociology. > > I am not convinced that Bloom's sight is so unequivocally accurate and > god-like. When he proclaims that his opponents are entirely preoccupied > with the race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnic origin, and political > purpose of the would-be poet, I see either a misunderstanding or a > mischaracterization of their arguments. Characteristics such as race and > gender surely suggest areas of study that might aid in understanding and > evaluating a poet. Moreover, for certain poets, such study might be > required to appreciate fully their aesthetic value. It does not follow that > matters of technique or analyses of form should be dismissed or denied > preeminent importance-though even here one might certainly find instances > where the forms a poet employs derive from aspects in their background. > > At the same time, Bloom would probably maintain that the critic's own > background or identity ought to be irrelevant. Or at least, that his must > be. Perhaps Harold Bloom is special. But for myself and every other critic > I've encountered, such factors are relevant. It's not a question of whether > we carry prejudices and blinders within our psyches, but what kind. But I > suppose that for Harold Bloom, I'm just one of those (critics and poets) > who have politicized literature and broken from that Edenic paradise where > literature possessed no political designs or effects and existed in a > separate realm altogether. > > According to Bloom, remnants of that apolitical period existed before the > onslaught of the sixties and the resulting deterioration of culture. Yet > even in the late seventies, when I was a graduate student, the curriculum I > studied would have probably met Harold Bloom's approval. Other than a > handful of poems by Amiri Baraka, all the poets were white, and the > overwhelming majority were white males. According to Bloom, then, I studied > the apolitical canon. That's not how I remember it. Certain professors and > critics such as James Dickey implied or explicitly stated that women were > less capable than men of writing great literature (the logic here: if women > were more capable, then of course we'd be studying them). Similarly, I was > told outright and subtly that to identify myself as an Japanese American or > Asian American writer or a writer of color was to relegate myself to a > literary ghetto-- to enter literature through a back door affirmative > action program. This only reinforced the cultural lessons I had learned > growing up in an all white suburb, wanting to assimilate and erase my > difference, wanting to disassociate myself from other Japanese-Americans or > people of color. I told myself I wanted to be judged as an individual, for > my own merits. What I knew subconsciously was that I really wanted to be > white. And nothing in my literary training through grad school ever led me > to question this desire or enabled me to formulate any other understanding > of my identity. > _______________________________ > > David Graham > > >It happens I'm reading Bloom's book right now, and I'm > >totally engrossed at the enormous breadth of his reading, > >understanding, and ability to make sweeping comparisons and > >crossreferences, and to communicate his enthusiasms clearly > >and gracefully. > > > >I'm just amazed that David Graham can use words like > >"poverty of imagination" and "ludicrous" when speaking of > >Harold Bloom. > > > > > >David Graham wrote: > >>>In this regard, the poverty of imagination in a critic like Harold Bloom is > >>>really stunning, I think. He has no ears for so many different kinds of > >>>contemporary poetry (especially those based in the oral tradition) that his > >>>particular brand of elitism just seems ludicrous. > >>> > > > >Richard > > > __________________ > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > __________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From DICK Thu May 3 09:00:30 2001 From: DICK (DICK at watson.ibm.com) Date: Thu, 3 May 01 09:00:30 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] "ethnic" writing Message-ID: <200105031302.JAA27492@sp1n189at0.watson.ibm.com> Amber says most literature has told what it was like to live as white in the white world, and it's time to learn more about other categories. Tony says he doesn't want to write Chicano poems, he wants to write what he wants to write (for this I applaud him.) I think the best writing doesn't attempt to describe categories, but individuals. Hemingway - particularly in his short stories - educates us on what it was like to be Hemingway (Ref. Phillip Young, Hemingway, a Reconsideration.) Richard Rodriguez, in his autobiography, tells us an awful lot about himself, who found himself in America, a child without the language, and what it was like to grow from that. Edward Jones' collection of stories, "Lost in the City," tells very much about life in and around Washington DC as experienced by urban blacks, but his characters are very human (and black), rather than "black" characters. I think this distiction is crucial. Richard From aprentiss Thu May 3 09:23:26 2001 From: aprentiss (Amber Prentiss) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 09:23:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "ethnic" writing Message-ID: To clarify myself, I say a piece of work is 'about' something as one of many things that a piece of work could be about. There's plenty of work written by some dearly and not-so-dearly departed white males, and I can learn or infer what it was like to have been a particular sort of European when they wrote it. But now, there are other perspectives people want to know about, too. I think the real problem is distinguishing between what is written about a category and what isn't. How can you tell when a writer's characters are human (and some category) or "category" characters? In this context, what the writer thinks she's doing isn't so important as what others think the writer is trying to do. -Amber -----Original Message----- From: DICK at watson.ibm.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 5/3/2001 9:00 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] "ethnic" writing Amber says most literature has told what it was like to live as white in the white world, and it's time to learn more about other categories. Tony says he doesn't want to write Chicano poems, he wants to write what he wants to write (for this I applaud him.) I think the best writing doesn't attempt to describe categories, but individuals. Hemingway - particularly in his short stories - educates us on what it was like to be Hemingway (Ref. Phillip Young, Hemingway, a Reconsideration.) Richard Rodriguez, in his autobiography, tells us an awful lot about himself, who found himself in America, a child without the language, and what it was like to grow from that. Edward Jones' collection of stories, "Lost in the City," tells very much about life in and around Washington DC as experienced by urban blacks, but his characters are very human (and black), rather than "black" characters. I think this distiction is crucial. Richard _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From CobbCoStudioArts Thu May 3 10:24:34 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 07:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet of the Month Message-ID: <20010503142434.3123336F9@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From Rsgwynn1 Thu May 3 10:36:54 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 10:36:54 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet of the Month Message-ID: <36.155d80ee.2822c706@cs.com> In a message dated 5/3/2001 9:25:15 AM Central Daylight Time, CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com writes: > Sam, > Congratulations on your 30 days sentence! You certainly deserve a lot more! > > Bob Cobb > > Thanks, Bob. I've never had one of these before and it's really nice. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmagee Thu May 3 10:44:59 2001 From: mmagee (Michael Magee) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 10:44:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon In-Reply-To: from "Marcus Bales" at May 2, 2001 08:20:06 pm Message-ID: <200105031444.KAA09934@dept.english.upenn.edu> According to Marcus Bales: > > I disagree: to say "Every statement is wrong" is a different thing > from saying "Every right statement becomes wrong through shifts > in time or context". The former abandons pretty explicitly not only > right statement but even the hope of right statements, while the > latter allows for contingent rightness in context. > Marcus, it depends on how quick a "shift" one allows - Bloom would probably allow that epoch to epoch, even in some cases generation to generation, rights may become wrongs. But I'm thinking of a more radical conception of shifting contexts to which Bloom is clearly antagonistic. My good friend Andrew Epstein, who's been eavesdropping, reminded me of William James' words: "The truth of an idea is not a stagnant property inherent in it. Truth *happens* to an idea. It *becomes* true, is *made* true by events ... Meanwhile we have to live to-day but what truth we can get to-day, and be ready to-morrow to call it falsehood." As James insists, this pragmatic approach IS NOT a rejection of truth, just a fessing-up about its difficulty and contingency. -m. From paul.lake Thu May 3 00:04:48 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 23:04:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Trapped in paradox Message-ID: >To say that every stament is wrong >is simply to say that every "right" statement becomes wrong in the course >of time or through a shift in space (context). Again, including this one? If the above statement, that every right statement becomes wrong, is true, then it isn't true, because it does not become wrong in time. And so your statement is self-cancelling. You hold as absolute unchanging truth that there is no absolute unchanging truth. You can't escape the paradox. Paul Lake From eselinge Thu May 3 11:33:19 2001 From: eselinge (Eric Selinger) Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 10:33:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens as a Poet of Love Message-ID: Oops--my apologies, Russ. I didn't mean to be such a tease. My book is called _What Is It Then Between Us? Traditions of Love in American Poetry_, & it was published by Cornell UP back in 1998. It was on sale in their catalog not long ago, which may mean that it's going out of print, but for a while you could buy it at Borders and such. There is also a fascinating book by the poet Mark Halliday called _Wallace Stevens and the Interpersonal,_ which was published by...hang on...Princeton UP, in 1991. Thinking of Stevens reminds me of a lovely moment in the Wallace Stevens episode of Voices and Visions, that PBS poetry series from the late 1980s: James Merrill musing (that always seems the verb) that "Final Soliloquy of the Interior Paramour" was, for him, what the 23rd Psalm is for other people, a poem that keeps the imagination "new and tender and quick." (A quote from Herbert, maybe, that last?) As for Mr. Bloom, I must say that I've always thought he was better writing about religion than about poetry. _The American Religion_ was a very sharp and entertaining book. When he takes on the barbarians at the gates, he gets huffy and sad, by and large, and rather dull. The real question about poetry criticism in America today, I think, is who out there is as good at po-crit as Pauline Kael or Greil Marcus (or Lester Bangs, for that matter) in their own respective backyards? EMS From paul.lake Thu May 3 00:30:38 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 23:30:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cretan liar paradox Message-ID: Signifying We?ve learned of those French critics who Have got so tangled in their seine Of words, they can?t get out again. Words are null signs, they say. If true, Their own words twist to make them Cretans, Who, liars even as they lie, Signify they don?t signify. Paul Lake From Rsgwynn1 Thu May 3 11:42:21 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 11:42:21 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens as a Poet of Love Message-ID: <6b.13bd0bdf.2822d65d@cs.com> In a message dated 5/3/2001 10:34:12 AM Central Daylight Time, eselinge at wppost.depaul.edu writes: > The real question about poetry criticism in America today, I think, is who > out there is as good at po-crit as Pauline Kael or Greil Marcus (or Lester > Bangs, for that matter) in their own respective backyards? > > Not that I'd want any comparisons made, but Pauline Kael has been a much more potent influence on my own criticism than any academic critic I've ever read (I except Randall Jarrell from this category). She's the tops, in my opinion. Interestingly, she was a good friend of the poet-critic Weldon Kees at Berkeley, and they used to do a radio show together. Anthony Lane, one of the younger New Yorker film critics, is in her mold, and I wish there were a collection of his stuff available (he also writes about poetry from time to time). I wish that more of the caveat emptor approach to poetry-as-product could be found. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmagee Thu May 3 11:43:13 2001 From: mmagee (Michael Magee) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 11:43:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Trapped in paradox In-Reply-To: from "Paul Lake" at May 2, 2001 11:04:48 pm Message-ID: <200105031543.LAA22804@dept.english.upenn.edu> According to Paul Lake: > > If the above statement, that every right statement becomes wrong, is true, > then it isn't true, because it does not become wrong in time. And so your > statement is self-cancelling. You hold as absolute unchanging truth that > there is no absolute unchanging truth. You can't escape the paradox. > Paul, what can I say? You've found, again, that point in my language where the logos hits the fan. The game smells not a little like sophistry to me but that's the way the cave crumbles when you give up painting on the walls for shining the light of day on said paintings. I suppose now that any sentence, any series of words with capital letter on left and period on right, seeks consent, receives it sometimes and not others, from some and not others, including this one. I would rather consider what that sentence is designed to do for some audience at some time, take your pick, and then what it in fact does. What would happen if you found a sentence, let alone uttered one, which was true for everyone, even for a second. "It might bring - what - some flowers soon?" A free burrito supreme at Taco Bell? Now there's something we all can agree on. Running for the border, -m. From Rsgwynn1 Thu May 3 11:44:18 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 11:44:18 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Cretan liar paradox Message-ID: Doesn't this same paradox frame one of Vonnegut's novels? The one about Ice-9? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Thu May 3 12:24:57 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 12:24:57 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Cretan liar paradox Message-ID: In a message dated 5/3/01 10:46:06 AM Central Daylight Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: > Doesn't this same paradox frame one of Vonnegut's novels? The one about > Ice-9? > Cat's Cradle, now that I've had my coffee. From rkubie Thu May 3 12:27:50 2001 From: rkubie (Rachel Kubie) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 12:27:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Yusef Komunyakaa at Johns Hopkins in Baltimore this Sunday (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 11:06:59 -0400 From: Chuck Beckman To: Rachel Kubie Yusef Komunyakaa to Give Fourth Annual Joshua Ringel Memorial Lecture Sunday, May 6 at Johns Hopkins' Mudd Hall Pulitzer-prize winning poet Yusef Komunyakaa will give the fourth annual Joshua Ringel Memorial Lecture on Sunday, May 6, 2001, at 3 p.m. in Mudd Hall at The Johns Hopkins University Homewood Campus. Poet, essayist, and librettist Komunyakaa won the Pulitzer Prize for poetry in 1994 and teaches at Princeton University. Kirkus Reviews calls Komunyakaa's writing "American poetry at its visionary best." Komunyakaa's blues- and jazz-influenced poetry will be preceded by a jazz quartet performance beginning at 2:30. The performance, lecture, and post-reading reception with Mr. Komunyakaa are free and open to the public. Information and directions: 410-516-0251. From halvard Thu May 3 14:22:42 2001 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 14:22:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: poultry stamps In-Reply-To: <3AF12448.3B2C@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: > Sure, a lot of poetry- > lovers no doubt thought the contest too silly to > participate in, but still . . . > > --Bob G. Quite possibly they respect poets too much to want to lick their behinds. Hal "That's the way the world goes, and it's not going well." --Bertolt Brecht Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From JackKerouac25 Thu May 3 14:36:58 2001 From: JackKerouac25 (JackKerouac25 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 14:36:58 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Auden Message-ID: <42.1439f20c.2822ff4a@aol.com> New Poetry Devotees: I'm trying to read some new things this summer (for me, folks, new for me). One poet that I've recently developed somewhat of a taste for is W.H. Auden. Can you all recommend some place to start? Is his _Collected Poems_ a nice introduction or should I look elsewhere? Additionally, can anyone recommend a good book of essays on Auden? Thanks in advance. Jeffrey L. Newberry Adjunct Instructor Department of English and Foreign Languages University of West Florida 11000 University Parkway Pensacola, FL 32514 850.474.2923 850.473.7330 From paul.lake Thu May 3 03:28:14 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 02:28:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] This is not a statement. Message-ID: >The game smells not a little like sophistry >To me but that's the way the cave crumbles when you give up painting on >the walls for shining the light of day on said paintings. So statements in language don't have truth value because language--and truth--are contingent on speaker, audience, and context, but you have access to some essentialist Platonic light which you shine on the language pictures of others, thus illuminating their contingency and falsehood. The problem is that you have to use language pictures yourself to describe the falsehood of language pictures, thus you're back in the cave scrawling "All sentences (including this) are untrue." And you accuse MY argument of being "a little bit like sophistry"? Paul Lake From jdavis Thu May 3 14:42:53 2001 From: jdavis (Jordan Davis) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 14:42:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Cretan liar paradox In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Paul - What if - and this is a big what if - the Cretan was ahead-of-his-time sarcastic and/or identity-conscious - and had put quotation marks around "All Cretans are liars." What if that scene is read not as a symbolic logic problem but as a dialect/ethnicity misunderstanding scene, a la Foucault's famous Parisian trial of the peasant? Happy trails, y'all - Jordan From JackKerouac25 Thu May 3 14:47:17 2001 From: JackKerouac25 (JackKerouac25 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 14:47:17 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Disordered System? Message-ID: Well, with all this arguing going on about language paradoxes on the list, I figured that I'd share a grad school story: We were sitting in contemporary literary theory one cold February night discussing post-structuralism. The class consisted of a retired US Navy guy (who just happened to be auditing the class), three "regular" grad students (full-time--they also worked in the language lab with me), a surfer named John (another grad student), and yours truly, a redneck trying desperately at the time to hide his southern roots. The prof (whom I won't name) looked up at us after reading a long passage from Derrida's "Sign, Structure, and Play" (I think that's the name of the essay) and said, "So you see, language is a hopelessly disordered system." I looked at the Navy guy; he looked at me. We shared a communal shrug, and I raised my hand. "Hey, Doc?" "Yes, Mr. Newberry?" "If language is a disordered system, why do we still use it?" The prof then proceeded to go off on a rather unenlightening diatribe. I promptly tuned him out. At the break, the Navy guy and I were standing outside smoking a cigarette, and he looked at me. "Hey, Newberry, you know, if language is a disordered system, it's a damn good way to disorganize something, don't you think?" I nodded, happy that I wasn't the only one confused by language games. Cheers to all, Newberry (Sorry about all the parentheses!) (see?) Jeffrey L. Newberry Adjunct Instructor Department of English and Foreign Languages University of West Florida 11000 University Parkway Pensacola, FL 32514 850.474.2923 850.473.7330 From cstroffo Thu May 3 14:22:06 2001 From: cstroffo (chris stroffolino) Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 14:22:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens, Bloom... References: Message-ID: <3AF1A1CF.93189DB7@earthlink.net> Hello To try to gather some of these thoughts together on Stevens and on Bloom (whose best book on poetry at least I believe, is on Stevens---which is not to say necessarily that it is the best book on Stevens), I was wondering if anybody on this list might be up for a little "experiment." Like what we I take a poem at random in Stevens' Collected (I'm thinking of either "The Owl in The Sarcophagus" or "Esthetique du Mal"), and also look at Bloom's reading of them (since he does talk about both--I just checked), and get into an intertextual dialogue with them, and with each other--- I don't expect this to be done quickly (i.e. we can take our time, I wanna do it to-- in private at least, but wanted to see if there was any interest in not just offering our own readings of these poems, but also looking at Bloom's too, and arguing or what-have-you...)... Maybe this could help focus this discussion a little more, even though (or perhaps because) it'sa 90 degree day in may and I'm more resistant to Stevens than I was a month ago (i'm interested in questioning if not necessarily rebukling that resistance), and besides quite a few of you are from different climates... Chris Stroffolino > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From moira_russell Thu May 3 15:21:26 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 11:21:26 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Auden Message-ID: "The Dog beneath the Skin" is a nifty neglected play by Auden, which I've always thought should have more readers. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From moira_russell Thu May 3 15:24:08 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 11:24:08 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Disordered System? Message-ID: Jeff Newberry wrote: >We were sitting in contemporary literary theory one cold February night >discussing post-structuralism. Oohhh....bad BAD flashback to graduate school there. That and someone's earlier reference to Foucault make me want to go lie down with plenty of cold compresses. I remember an hour misspent in one lit theory class arguing over what the _exact_ meaning of "metonymy" was. Brr. Moira russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From antrobin Thu May 3 15:29:08 2001 From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 12:29:08 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon References: Message-ID: <069e01c0d407$937ee380$19acefd8@0021936706> Amber, By "fundamental human experience" I mean those things that all people have in common, not the things that differentiate them. I'll refer you to Shylock's speech, if you cut me do i not bleed, etc... The particularities of human experience are of course, different, and I think the more diverse forms of expression and points of view that literature allows, the better. What I'm responding to is the notion that a person of category X should write about the concerns of category X, and not doing so makes said person a traitor to X. Also, I have a hunch that there is just as much bad "ethnic" poetry as anything else, but the former, at least in the current climate, goes over better because for some, the political and social circumstances and the particulars of a poet's identity are more important than the poetry itself. I hesitate to name names...but I'm sure many of us can come up with our own examples. So to address your point, yes there is a market, but I don't think the market for this sort of thing is driven by a desire to see "good poetry" from other cultural points of view as it is a desire to simply see other cultures and identities represented. Which is not to say there isn't good work out there. There is. >When was your funding cut off? But that, too, is not my point. My funding was cut off when I refused to sign a document promising to "shape up," i.e. write "ethnic" poetry, among other things. Tony From antrobin Thu May 3 15:30:49 2001 From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 12:30:49 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] "ethnic" writing References: <200105031302.JAA27492@sp1n189at0.watson.ibm.com> Message-ID: <069f01c0d407$944fef20$19acefd8@0021936706> Richard wrote: > Edward Jones' collection of stories, "Lost in the City," tells > very much about life in and around Washington DC as experienced > by urban blacks, but his characters are very human (and black), > rather than "black" characters. I think this distiction is > crucial. There are some who would contend, though, that this distinction is a false one, and "blackness" is an essential part of "black" humanity, and that writing characters who are "human" rather than "black humans" reveals a desire on the part of the author to reject his "blackness." I can't quite get with this. Tony From Jholmes Thu May 3 15:56:50 2001 From: Jholmes (Janet Holmes) Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 13:56:50 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: No papers! Message-ID: Heh. Didn't get this until this afternoon...but I DO feel like a good girl! Janet >>> aprentiss at agnesscott.edu 05/02/01 12:58PM >>> Read posts! -Amber -----Original Message----- From: Janet Holmes To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 5/2/2001 2:33 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens, Gwynn, Anastasios, etc. Russ, all wonderful Stevens poems, but for my money "Two Figures in Dense Violet Night" and "Long and Sluggish Lines" need to be on the list too, as well as his wonderful titles ("Tea at the Palaz of Hoon," "The Curtains in the House of the Metaphysician," "The Revolutionists Stop for Orangeade," etc.). Re: Sam Gwynn--of course his poems aren't about himself. Not for nothing did he write "The Narcissiad," which is about almost everybody else! And a long way back, in response to Anastasios's comment "I think that the 'contests' and 'fellowships' etc. make people aim their poetry at a certain poetry reading population/segment, which compromises integrity. Perhaps, I am way off base here, but it is always fascinating to me to who wins what and why. I think sometimes the economics dictate aesthetics and dilute integrity." I'm writing a talk on specifically this topic right now, and I do agree with you; I'd go so far as to say that the yearning of poets to publish in journals and anthologies also dictates the length and structure of many poems. But as editor of a press that is just instituting a contest with the hope of discovering new or underrecognized writers, I'm not willing to go so far as to decry all literary competitions. Sure, we all know of cases in which contests were won by friends or lovers of the judges (I lost two such when seeking to place my first book, though one judge sent me a "letter of encouragement" through the contest administrators separately) or former students, or whatever. Poets are just as tawdry as other humans. But I don't think one can paint contests and fellowships as necessarily bereft of integrity. (Can't afford to--nearly everything I have in print is the result of an anonymous competition.) I used to think that self-publishing was also a bad idea, but can n! ow appreciate that it may be the only way for an "unpopular" or unusual kind of writing to see print at all (cf. Whitman, Virginia Woolf, etc.). Most will fade away unnoticed, but thank goodness for the work that really *was* genius a bit too extraordinary to surface through the usual methods. Janet Holmes ("Grade papers? Read posts? Grade papers? Read posts?") _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From acgold01 Thu May 3 16:01:02 2001 From: acgold01 (Alan C. Golding) Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 16:01:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcement of new book series Message-ID: The University of Wisconsin Press announces a new book series on Contemporary North American Poetry General Editors: Lynn Keller, University of Wisconsin-Madison Alan Golding, University of Louisville Adalaide Morris, University of Iowa This new series will document, analyze, and seek to sustain the many exciting and diverse developments in North American poetry since the 1950s by publishing critical studies of recent poetry, collections of essays on poetics, biographies of individual poets or groups of poets, as well as correspondence and memoirs. The Wisconsin Series on Contemporary North American Poetry aims to represent a variety of contemporary aesthetics and to illuminate ongoing debates about the material forms and contexts of recent poetry. As part of its project, the series will commission from leading scholars new guides to significant poets or poetry movements. We also welcome recommendations for the reprinting of important books of criticism, poetry, and poetics that are currently unavailable. Advisory Board Members: Charles Altieri, University of California-Berkeley Alfred Arteaga University of California-Berkeley Bonnie Costello, Boston University Michael Davidson, University of California-San Diego Johanna Drucker, University of Virginia Rachel Blau DuPlessis, Temple University Thomas Gardner, Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Linda A. Kinnahan, Duquesne University Aldon Nielsen, Pennsylvania State University Marjorie Perloff, Stanford University (emerita) Lorenzo Thomas, University of Houston Robert von Hallberg, University of Chicago Please send inquiries and proposals to any of the three general editors. Manuscript submissions should be sent to Robert A. Mandel, Director of the University of Wisconsin Press, with notation that they are intended for the Series on Contemporary North American Poetry. Alan Golding Department of English University of Louisville Louisville, KY 40292 acgold01 at louisville.edu Lynn Keller Department of English University of Wisconsin 600 N. Park Street Madison, WI 53706 rlkeller at facstaff.wisc.edu Dee Morris Department of English University of Iowa Iowa City, IA 52242 dee-morris at uiowa.edu Robert A. Mandel, Director after 7/1/01:Robert A. Mandel, Director University of Wisconsin Press University of Wisconsin Press 2537 Daniels Street 1930 Monroe Street Madison, WI 53718 Madison WI 53711 ramandel at facstaff.wisc.edu From paul.lake Thu May 3 04:58:15 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 03:58:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cretan liar paradox In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 5/3/01 1:42 PM, Jordan Davis at jdavis at panix.com wrote: > Paul - > > What if - and this is a big what if - the Cretan was ahead-of-his-time > sarcastic and/or identity-conscious - and had put quotation marks around > "All Cretans are liars." What if that scene is read not as a symbolic > logic problem but as a dialect/ethnicity misunderstanding scene, a la > Foucault's famous Parisian trial of the peasant? > > Happy trails, y'all - > Jordan > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Then we'd have to have a dual standards of truth and justice. Anyone who denied the authenticity of the Cretan's language by pointing out the apparent paradox in his words would be sentenced to sensitivity training. Logic is, after all, a Greek male construct. Cretan activists would denounce the logician's ethnocentricity and call for an apology--and his job. It's one thing for a Cretan to say "All Cretans lie" and quite another for, say, a mainland Greek to repeat the phrase in order to examine its logic in a philosophy class. The truth of any statement does, after all, depend upon the ethnic identity of the speaker, power relations between him/her and the rest of the society, and social rules about what is politically correct to say. Truth is contingent on historical context; that is, on what one can force others to say or not to say. At least, that's what learned opinion now holds. Paul Lake From Rsgwynn1 Thu May 3 16:09:18 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 16:09:18 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Cretan liar paradox Message-ID: From kellogg Thu May 3 17:16:45 2001 From: kellogg (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 17:16:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cretan liar paradox References: Message-ID: <3AF1CABD.908AF1F2@duke.edu> Paul Lake wrote: > on 5/3/01 1:42 PM, Jordan Davis at jdavis at panix.com wrote: > > > Paul - > > > > What if - and this is a big what if - the Cretan was ahead-of-his-time > > sarcastic and/or identity-conscious - and had put quotation marks around > > "All Cretans are liars." What if that scene is read not as a symbolic > > logic problem but as a dialect/ethnicity misunderstanding scene, a la > > Foucault's famous Parisian trial of the peasant? > > > > Happy trails, y'all - > > Jordan > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > Then we'd have to have a dual standards of truth and justice. Anyone who > denied the authenticity of the Cretan's language by pointing out the > apparent paradox in his words would be sentenced to sensitivity training. > Logic is, after all, a Greek male construct. Cretan activists would denounce > the logician's ethnocentricity and call for an apology--and his job. It's > one thing for a Cretan to say "All Cretans lie" and quite another for, say, > a mainland Greek to repeat the phrase in order to examine its logic in a > philosophy class. The truth of any statement does, after all, depend upon > the ethnic identity of the speaker, power relations between him/her and the > rest of the society, and social rules about what is politically correct to > say. Truth is contingent on historical context; that is, on what one can > force others to say or not to say. > > At least, that's what learned opinion now holds. > > Paul Lake A clever caricature, Paul, if a bit breathless in its exaggeration. On an wholly digressive note (but what in this thread is not digressive), I might point out that "Truth is contingent on historical context; that is, on what one can force others to say or not to say" sounds like one of Bush's arguments before the Supreme Court last year. As for me, I'm all on the side of the Sophists (though not of the Bushies). Not for nothing was Plato suspicious of poets. David Kellogg Assistant Director, University Writing Program Duke University (919) 660-4357; FAX (919) 660-4372 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg From moira_russell Thu May 3 17:34:44 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 13:34:44 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cretan liar paradox Message-ID: David Graham wrote: >As for me, I'm all on the side of the Sophists (though not of the Bushies). > Not for nothing was Plato suspicious of poets. Apropos of this there is an interesting essay on the Republic online at http://www.mala.bc.ca/~johnstoi/introser/republic.htm I tried but failed to find the citation online where Socrates talks about the proper treatment of Homer. Isn't it somethng like, we shold appreciate his great talent, and crown him with laurels, and send him on his way and sing hymns instead....? Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From mmagee Thu May 3 17:36:44 2001 From: mmagee (Michael Magee) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 17:36:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] This is not a statement. In-Reply-To: from "Paul Lake" at May 3, 2001 02:28:14 am Message-ID: <200105032136.RAA18115@dept.english.upenn.edu> According to Paul Lake: > > So statements in language don't have truth value because language--and > truth--are contingent on speaker, audience, and context, but you have access > to some essentialist Platonic light which you shine on the language > pictures of others, thus illuminating their contingency and falsehood. The > problem is that you have to use language pictures yourself to describe the > falsehood of language pictures, thus you're back in the cave scrawling "All > sentences (including this) are untrue." > > And you accuse MY argument of being "a little bit like sophistry"? > > Paul Lake > Paul, - and this is the last thing I'll say as I feel this tete-a-tete is becoming unproductive - you've misread my intentions. That's you're right as a reader and, given our differences of opinion, somewhat inevitable I guess. But in your reading of my last post, for what it's worth, you missed both the playfulness of it and the fact that I was decidedly marking myself as one of the cave painters, whatever that means. So, let's "agree to disagree" as my mother says, unless one of us adds something new to the discussion. I'mstarting to feel like the Corinthians! :) -m. From paul.lake Thu May 3 06:31:22 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 05:31:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cretans and cretins Message-ID: >As for me, I'm all on the side of the Sophists (though not of the Bushies). >Not >for nothing was Plato suspicious of poets. As poets are suspicious of Plato. But the Sophists? I dunno. I've been mulling a poem about them for a while. Maybe soon. With luck, it'll be clever and full of breathless exaggeration. Paul Lake From DICK Thu May 3 18:35:26 2001 From: DICK (DICK at watson.ibm.com) Date: Thu, 3 May 01 18:35:26 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] ethnic writing Message-ID: <200105032237.SAA36158@sp1n189at0.watson.ibm.com> Tony Robinson wrote: >>Richard wrote: >> >>> Edward Jones' collection of stories, "Lost in the City," tells >>> very much about life in and around Washington DC as experienced >>> by urban blacks, but his characters are very human (and black), >>> rather than "black" characters. I think this distiction is >>> crucial. >> >> >>There are some who would contend, though, that this distinction is a false >>one, and "blackness" is an essential part of "black" humanity, and that >>writing characters who are "human" rather than "black humans" reveals a >>desire on the part of the author to reject his "blackness." I can't quite >>get with this. >> >>Tony I'm sure what you say is true, but I can't separate that stance much from the bigots' "All are " except that the adjective is not optional. Characters in artful fiction/poetry are not devoid of ethnic character but have life in all dimensions rather than only their ethnicity. IMHO Amber asks how to make the distinction: I can only offer examples that I've made up my mind about: Richard Wright's "Native Son," Alan Paton's "Too Late the Phalarope" (this is perhaps the greatest novel I've ever read), the novels of Nadine Gordimer, the poetry of Marilyn Nelson and Robert Hayden and Lucille Clifton. Richard From mbales Thu May 3 19:53:14 2001 From: mbales (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 19:53:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon In-Reply-To: <200105031444.KAA09934@dept.english.upenn.edu> References: from "Marcus Bales" at May 2, 2001 08:20:06 pm Message-ID: Mike Magee: > ... it depends on how quick a "shift" one allows - Bloom would > probably allow that epoch to epoch, even in some cases generation to > generation, rights may become wrongs. But I'm thinking of a more > radical conception of shifting contexts to which Bloom is clearly > antagonistic.<< Clearly, then, I don't see what that radical conception consists of yet. Perhaps you can clue me in. > My good friend Andrew Epstein, who's been eavesdropping, > reminded me of William James' words: "The truth of an idea is not a > stagnant property inherent in it. Truth *happens* to an idea. It > *becomes* true, is *made* true by events ... Meanwhile we have to live > to-day but what truth we can get to-day, and be ready to-morrow to > call it falsehood."<< What sort of "an idea" are you talking about? Are you talking about the sorts of ideas in the general order of magnitude of "It's true that Mike Magee is considered an excellent poet by those who publih his poems", or about the sorts of ideas in the general order of magnitude of "It's wrong to murder"? I could agree that the more one lives in the moment, the less concerned one is with the consequences of one's utterances or acts, the more likely it is that it may seem like a good idea to say that truth (or falseness) just happens to an idea on a moment by moment basis, contingent on one's immediate personal impulses. Is that what you mean to say? > As James insists, this pragmatic approach IS NOT a rejection of truth, > just a fessing-up about its difficulty and contingency.<< But still, agreeing that truth is both difficult to identify and contingent upon circumstances doesn't address the difference between saying "Every statement is wrong" and saying "Every right statement becomes wrong through shifts in time or context", unless you mean to hold that the former is merely shorthand for the latter, a sort of term of art that is common enough that you might reasonably expect your audience to understand the code. Is that what you're saying? mbales at cybergate.net From dzauhar Thu May 3 20:40:18 2001 From: dzauhar (David Zauhar) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 19:40:18 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Auden In-Reply-To: <42.1439f20c.2822ff4a@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 May 2001 JackKerouac25 at aol.com wrote: > New Poetry Devotees: > > I'm trying to read some new things this summer (for me, folks, new for me). > One poet that I've recently developed somewhat of a taste for is W.H. Auden. > Can you all recommend some place to start? Is his _Collected Poems_ a nice > introduction or should I look elsewhere? Additionally, can anyone recommend > a good book of essays on Auden? > I'm a fan of the selected myself, but there's plenty of Auden to go around. My favorite piece by W.H.A., though, is his travel book written with Louis MacNeice, _Letters From Iceland_, an odd mix that includes verse epistles between Auden and MacNeice, a few chrystomathies concerning the curiousities of Iceland, an extended letter from Auden to Lord Byron. Quite fun, considering it was written, reluctantly, to fulfill a contract. Dave Zauhar > Thanks in advance. > > Jeffrey L. Newberry > Adjunct Instructor > Department of English and Foreign Languages > University of West Florida > 11000 University Parkway > Pensacola, FL 32514 > 850.474.2923 > 850.473.7330 > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From grahamd Wed May 2 12:32:09 2001 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 11:32:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon In-Reply-To: <200105012304.TAA24260@sp1n189at0.watson.ibm.com> Message-ID: For what it's worth, I was thinking specifically not of Bloom's *The Western Canon* but of his diatribe, "They have the numbers; we, the heights," which introduced his Best of the Best American antho. That essay is available online, along with a number of responses to it: http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR23.2/bloom.html I'm amazed by Bloom's erudition, too. And I've found him an invaluable critic of the Romantics. But from where I sit, his taste in contemporary poetry is uncomfortably narrow, since it excludes a great deal of poetry that I admire. I particularly like what David Mura said in response to Bloom's essay: http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR23.3/mura.html Here are the opening paragraph's of Mura's essay: _____________________ In the world according to Harold Bloom, there are those who occupy the heights of objective judgment and the barbarians below. Or, as Bloom would have it, what he reads with pleasure and profit must possess lasting aesthetic value. Those who do not see that value have been blinded to the true purpose of literature by a political or ideological agenda. In contrast, Bloom's judgment has nothing to do with his race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnic origin, or politics. He possesses no extra-literary agenda, no personal biases. If we point out that all the writers he holds up in admiration are white and most of them male, we are replacing objective literary criteria with sociology. I am not convinced that Bloom's sight is so unequivocally accurate and god-like. When he proclaims that his opponents are entirely preoccupied with the race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnic origin, and political purpose of the would-be poet, I see either a misunderstanding or a mischaracterization of their arguments. Characteristics such as race and gender surely suggest areas of study that might aid in understanding and evaluating a poet. Moreover, for certain poets, such study might be required to appreciate fully their aesthetic value. It does not follow that matters of technique or analyses of form should be dismissed or denied preeminent importance-though even here one might certainly find instances where the forms a poet employs derive from aspects in their background. At the same time, Bloom would probably maintain that the critic's own background or identity ought to be irrelevant. Or at least, that his must be. Perhaps Harold Bloom is special. But for myself and every other critic I've encountered, such factors are relevant. It's not a question of whether we carry prejudices and blinders within our psyches, but what kind. But I suppose that for Harold Bloom, I'm just one of those (critics and poets) who have politicized literature and broken from that Edenic paradise where literature possessed no political designs or effects and existed in a separate realm altogether. According to Bloom, remnants of that apolitical period existed before the onslaught of the sixties and the resulting deterioration of culture. Yet even in the late seventies, when I was a graduate student, the curriculum I studied would have probably met Harold Bloom's approval. Other than a handful of poems by Amiri Baraka, all the poets were white, and the overwhelming majority were white males. According to Bloom, then, I studied the apolitical canon. That's not how I remember it. Certain professors and critics such as James Dickey implied or explicitly stated that women were less capable than men of writing great literature (the logic here: if women were more capable, then of course we'd be studying them). Similarly, I was told outright and subtly that to identify myself as an Japanese American or Asian American writer or a writer of color was to relegate myself to a literary ghetto-- to enter literature through a back door affirmative action program. This only reinforced the cultural lessons I had learned growing up in an all white suburb, wanting to assimilate and erase my difference, wanting to disassociate myself from other Japanese-Americans or people of color. I told myself I wanted to be judged as an individual, for my own merits. What I knew subconsciously was that I really wanted to be white. And nothing in my literary training through grad school ever led me to question this desire or enabled me to formulate any other understanding of my identity. _______________________________ David Graham >It happens I'm reading Bloom's book right now, and I'm >totally engrossed at the enormous breadth of his reading, >understanding, and ability to make sweeping comparisons and >crossreferences, and to communicate his enthusiasms clearly >and gracefully. > >I'm just amazed that David Graham can use words like >"poverty of imagination" and "ludicrous" when speaking of >Harold Bloom. > > >David Graham wrote: >>>In this regard, the poverty of imagination in a critic like Harold Bloom is >>>really stunning, I think. He has no ears for so many different kinds of >>>contemporary poetry (especially those based in the oral tradition) that his >>>particular brand of elitism just seems ludicrous. >>> > >Richard __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From archambeau Wed May 2 14:30:04 2001 From: archambeau (Robert Archambeau) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 13:30:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Call for Papers (or Proposals) on Ronald Johnson References: Message-ID: <3AF0522C.78809C54@lfc.edu> Eric, We'd be interested in reviewing this at Samizdat when it is published. Robert Archambeau Eric Selinger wrote: > Hello, everyone. I'm currently co-editing a collection of essays on the poet Ronald Johnson. Although the book is filling up nicely, we're still interested in hearing from potential contributors. If you have an essay you're itching to write on RJ's work--especially on the earlier poetry, or the concrete poems, but we're open to offers--please contact me directly at eselinge at wppost.depaul.edu. > > Best, > > EMS > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From CobbCoStudioArts Fri May 4 02:14:05 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 23:14:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Trapped in paradox Message-ID: <20010504061405.0044E36EE@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From BobGrumman Fri May 4 06:03:09 2001 From: BobGrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 06:03:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Call for Papers (or Proposals) on Ronald Johnson References: Message-ID: <3AF27E5D.645C@nut-n-but.net> Glad to here such a book is being done. Ronald Johnson is one of our most under-recognized poets. Question: were his concrete poems ever collected anywhere? I'd love to do an essay on them, but only have a few of them--the ones in the concrete poetry anthologies. --Bob G. From mbales Fri May 4 06:45:10 2001 From: mbales (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 06:45:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bush Opera In-Reply-To: <3AF27E5D.645C@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Bush Opera RS Walker, c2001 In Act One, Dubya has just been elected President by a very narrow margin. The Democrats are devastated and angry, and are not at all certain they wish to accept the outcome. As the curtain rises on the opera, Bill Clinton is leaving Washington, DC, and keeps having departure ceremonies. Dubya, meanwhile, is trying to get the cameras to pay attention to him and reassures the public that virtue has been restored to the White House. The opening chorale, "Goodness In Office" (no more flooziescandala), is sung as a sextet. The camera shifts to Al Gore, who is departing quietly with Tipper, via limosine. Several Democrats rush up to him to bid him farewell and to wish him luck. Dan Rather appears on the scene and sings "We Will Find a Way" (dredgi uppa more recounta), following which Gore sings "Home to Mend Fences" (fooking chads falla wronga). He gives Tipper a long, lingering kiss. Act Two begins with Laura Bush telling Dubya he must really have a talk with one of the First Twins, Jenna, about proper conduct at college. Her aria, "Remember Your Name Is Bush" (drinka da good grappa), convinces Dubya he needs to speak with his child. His counsel to her, "The Eyes of the Nation Are Upon You" (hypocriti pious crappola), is followed by her promise to be a good student "I Shall Study Until Dawn" (kegga Sigma Chi). Laura joins with a caution to Jenna not to drive if impaired "Don't Run Down Old Boyfriends" (secreta service take-a you anywhere), and the act closes with the three of them singing "Family Values" (no looka too close). Act Three begins with word that the Chinese have damaged an American surveillance airplane, which has been forced to land on Hainan Island, in China. This information is brought to Dubya by Dick Cheney and Colin Powell, who sing the duet "The Commies Have Captured Our Spy Plane" (caught pantaloni down). Dubya's first reaction is concern for the lives of our service personnel as he sings "Let Us Do Nothing That Might Harm Our Brave Men and Women" (bomba da chinks), which he states on national television. He receives further counsel from various national security advisors who sing "We Must Be Patient" (whazzamatta, you crazy). Laura, too, offers him counsel in her aria, "Your First International Incident!" (hottadoggie, you look-a presidential) and Bush retreats with Laura to their ranch disappearing from the nightly news for several days. Bush returns to Washington to urge passage of his tax cut proposal, singing "The Rich Deserve a Tax Cut, Too" (wasto multi millioni) as the act ends. Act Four begins after the safe return of the captured service personnel, whose homecoming Bush decided not to attend, explaining "Let Them Have the Spotlight" (ask-a me no questioni about Texas Air National Guarda). A chorus of reporters soon appears in the Oval Office to tell Bush about questions being asked regarding former Senator Bob Kerrey's Bronze Star, and whether Kerrey killed innocent civilians, singing "We Only Want to Learn the Truth" (democrato hero in deepa shitti). Dubya declines to comment, singing "As Far As I Know, Bob Kerrey Is an Honorable Man" (une less in oh-four). The reporters close the act with "Does Anyone Believe Us?" (publica desgustanta con media). In the brief Epilogue, Laura sings "It Is a Joy to Be First Lady" (whazza First Twin doing now) while Dubya sings counterpoint "America Loves Us" (hooboy, oh-two looks-a dicey), as the curtain falls. mbales at cybergate.net From JforJames Fri May 4 08:56:58 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 08:56:58 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Hecht in advance Message-ID: <21.b29a6ba.2824011a@aol.com> Date: 5/3/01 11:02:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: webmaster at randomhouse.com Reply-to: knopfwebmaster at randomhouse.com To: JforJames at aol.com A poem by Anthony Hecht from the upcoming collection THE DARKNESS AND THE LIGHT (June 12): Lot?s Wife How simple the pleasures of those childhood days, Simple but filled with exquisite satisfactions. The iridescent labyrinth of the spider, Its tethered tensor nest of polygons Puffed by the breeze to a little bellying sail-- Merely observing this gave infinite pleasure. The sound of rain. The gentle graphite veil Of rain that makes of the world a steel engraving, Full of soft fadings and faint distances. The self-congratulations of a fly, Rubbing its hands. The brown bicameral brain Of a walnut. The smell of wax. The feel Of sugar to the tongue: a delicious sand. One understands immediately how Proust Might cherish all such postage-stamp details. Who can resist the charms of retrospection? Copyright (c) 2001 by Anthony Hecht From mmagee Fri May 4 09:08:24 2001 From: mmagee (Michael Magee) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 09:08:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dunning langpo In-Reply-To: <3AF1AACD.4C8EAB1A@columbia.edu> from "Jeffrey Jullich" at May 3, 2001 03:00:30 pm Message-ID: <200105041308.JAA12574@dept.english.upenn.edu> Hi all you Buffalos and new-poetry listees (to whom this is cross-posted) I wanted to say something about Jeffrey Jullich's last post to the Buffalo List, part of the "Dunn gets Pulitzer" thread which has evolved into something different, specifically this idea: The shell of the ("traditional") prosodic structure may be inherently neutral and, as an empty vessel, equally --- if not more --- malleable to an asyntactical "content." And richard's response: "Jeffrey. The New Formalists writing in metre and rhyme are a pathetic lot. Who wants to be bound by a lot of quite arbitrary rules?" I'm not particularly sympathetic to New Formalism (surprised?) but I have become interested lately in rhyme. Below is an excerpt from a conversation I published between my brother (painter living in Brooklyn) and I for the new "Poets & Painters" series at the Writers House in Philly. We were talking about appropriating elements of traditional form (say, very photorealistic figure drawing, or descriptive writing which was unironized on the local level - - tho ironized by whatever it abridged perhaps) and I brought up the issue of rhyme. With apologies for any formatting problems (I've pasted this in and you know how that can be) here's what I said: [MIKE: Another way to consider this - - which involves not employing the styles of one's hip immediate predecessors but older more outmoded forms which the hip immediate predecessors deemed off limits - - is with Rhyme. As I mentioned the Language Poets (hip immediate predecessors who I've learned a lot from) were pretty antagonistic towards rhyme, with good reason: for one thing there was that sense, amazingly still around in the mainstream / big press world of poetry that rhyme was, if not always desirable, than at least difficult to do and thus a measure of Talent. For another, there was/is a sense that using sound to develop a rich texture had a philosophical/theological point behind it: that rhymes were a matter of Natural Convergences. So, using rhyme, you were either the Great Artificer or the Transcendental Sound Conveyor, and either way you were screwed ("no intuitive well of sonic richness," Bob Perelman insisted). A third option was/is doggerel: which has a long interesting history but it's tough avoiding "There once was a man from Nantucket?" and I think with doggerel you fall into the same problems we discussed regarding parody. So. So I think some younger poets are finding interesting, experimental ways to use rhyme, partly thanks to hip-hop, partly perhaps thanks to the various language theories focussed in on the materiality of the work. Part of the pain-in-the-ass that was Rhymed Poetry involved it's marriage to Narrative Poetry: so that the real sign of excellence involved keeping your rhymes invisible, out of the way of your story but nonetheless heard as sweet music. But what if rhyme actually drives what's being said: I walked in the forest like an elephant Everything I saw seemed irrelevant I walked through the forest like a donkey Everything I saw seemed on key I flew over the river Volga Around it milled a people vulgar That's from Eugene Ostashevsky's "I Locked the House of Myself" which is in Combo 7. The joke about rhyme directing narrative ("Everything I saw seemed on key") is played out in the next couplet where the people are vulgar not because they are vulgar (and here the poem takes on political overtones for me) but because of the need for an approximate sound. As I said, hip-hop often has this emphasis on the materiality of rhyme (jump-rope rhymes do to) and that first couplet reminds me of these ones from Busta Rhymes, "I roam through the forest / just like a Brontosaurus / Born in the month of may so my sign is Taurus / I kick you in the face like my fuckin' name was Chuck Norris." (I suppose there's a narrative coherence in the idea of masculine toughness but it's really about the search for a rhyme ?? the giveaway is in the need to keep extending the meter.) So, I find this a very interesting possibility. It's been around ?? Gertrude Stein does it with nursery rhyme adaptations, Harryette Mullen brings not only Stein but a whole history of African American speaking to bear on the use of rhyme in poems. Another writer doing it is Mark Sardinha (also in Combo 7, see "Stick me in a rib cage"), who I think is aided in his ability to put a new twist on it by his fluency in Portuguese.] Here is Sardinha's poem: stick me in a rib cage play me for my xylophone losing sucks the marrow bone but atrophy ain?t everything monkey in your space garage doing ether these and dozed damage in the fuselage to the tune of subterfuge in a room of telephones dust me off a love song for another fishing hole spear me please the rib cage put down the megaphone just a finger cut off years ago flotilla in a fish bowl Eve-seen men dispense with knees crawling in a traffic zone blame me for a pill of lint I haven?t got the slightest rib take me for one of those [NOTE: If this is interesting you at all, here's how our conversation continued. Lastly, there's a poem of my own in this vein at the bottom of the page.] MITCH: the idea of artifice seems important here. It seems like a dominant trend in late 20th cent. art and poetry is the desire to erase artifice (whatever that means, it's all artifice). Having art more closely approximate life, or art which has such a logical structure that its own directness denies artifice. Poems whose line structure mirrors the length of a breath, poems which have an off-the-cuff casualness, chatty like O'Hara. Art, like Minimalism that exists in the space that you and I inhabit, not the same space as a Rodin. This is realism, I guess, the same sort of impulse that made Caravaggio paint the way he painted rather than painting like Carracci. However, the use of rhyme seems to go against this impulse. This seems great and important but I don't know why. Maybe this is a way to become real again; what was a language the seemed to tear down artifice now seems artificial so that in order to feel *real* and authentic again one must go through the backdoor of artifice. Certainly this is the case for Currin (and maybe every other contemporary artist we've been talking about). The work (I think, but maybe not everyone would see it this way) feels "authentic" *because* of its artificial structure. I don't know. Anyway, it may be that Ostashevsky's poems function a bit in this way, rhyme is dumb and contrived which is a good thing because it allows one to address a whole set of issues which could not be addressed in a conventional ?? or rather, conventional avant-garde ?? poem. Now the notion of rhyme as it relates to African American cultural history may be a whole 'nother ball of wax, but it is important to the discussion. Let's see, Busta Rhymes is interesting because his rhymes are usually direct and dumb and he rhymes the same sound over and over and over again. His stuff feels really off the cuff (improvised) and meaning is derived not from the narrative but from the line to line, free associative connections, "how is he going to get out of this one." This seems to have a long African American lineage, certainly back to minstrelsy; A near-present day example of this comedic rhyming style, thought horrible, is Nipsy Russell. So Busta Rhymes takes on the artificial Jester role to arrive at something real, he goes through the back door. There's a lot of freedom gained, but a lot of authority lost, in playing the clown. I actually want my art to head more in that direction. Sean Landers is a good artist to look at in terms of playing the fool. Right now I'd say my art is a bit drier than I want it to be. MIKE: It's amazing how what you say about artifice and realism here echoes a statement by the language poet Charles Bernstein (who incidentally does work sometimes w/ rhyme in a way not unlike what I've been describing although I would say his version is playing more on Nursery rhymes and less on hip hop rhymes (if at all). Anyway, Bernstein says this in a an essay called "The Artifice of Absorption": Artifice "is a measure of a poem's intractability to being read as the sum of its devices & subject matters. In this sense, "artifice" is the contradiction of "realism", with its insistence on presenting an unmediated (immediate) experience of facts, either of the "external" world of nature or the "internal" world of the mind; for example, naturalistic representation or phenomenological consciousness mapping. Facts in poetry are primarily factitious. That seems pretty close to what your saying, right? And I would agree. What's funny is that Bernstein and his contemporaries shy away from certain kinds of artifice anyway, probably because the canon was a little too real for them in the 70s for the techniques found there to be used as an oppositional practice. (Poets like Richard Wilbur were still using very "artificial" forms ?? elaborate, "perfect" schemes of rhyme and meter ?? toward ends which the Langauge Poets didin't want any part of ?? precisely because someone like Wilbur was ultimately arguing for the naturalness of those forms: even if he wouldn't say so, it was the pure naturalness of "high culture," the rightness of it which underlay his practice. Then in the 80s you had the New Formalists following his lead. So it would've been a tightrope for the Language Poets to try appropriating heroic couplets or something, and I still don't think you could do it without really contextualizing it in some way ?? otherwise it will either simply be heroic couplets, or it will be a parody of them (and again, this problem of pardoy jumps out ?? who wants to be a parodist?) On the other hand, you have a young poet like K. Silem Mohammad who is definitely employing something like High Elizabethan Speech in his poems (see Combo 4 & 6). Take this quatrain, which seems to be all about this very issue of artifice. Mohammad is very canny about this, as he puts it in as a footnote (all italicized) to the wildly polyglot poem "Dietary of Ghostly Health": I am singing to the nutshell not the kernel of the phrase I am pining in the outskirts not the heart of the malaise I bled when I was thirsty and I wept when I was tired I took the thing I wept for and not what I desired So here you have, in something of a riddle, a similar discussion of inside/outside, natural/artifical that you and Bernstein address. But again, this isn't that far from "New Formalism" except that the content (the point about singing to the nutshell and pining in the outskirts) puts the form in stark relief and as a result puts its authority (as "natural" or as natural link in a chain of traditional practice) into doubt ?? plus of course you have the fact that it's contextualized by all sorts of other speech and writing. We're back to this issue of appropriation. Mohammad clearly isn't just lampooning this "high speech" ?? but neither is he celebrating it, except in some subversive way. Is that subversion social/political or is this a "guilty pleasure" or both. One of the things we face is that the work of subverting the Traditional was done for us ?? do sonnets really need any more subverting?? Or naturalists paintings (or for that matter Ab Ex paintings which aspire to "psychological depth")?? There's always the option to subvert immediate high profile predecessors (for the sake of simplicity let's say Minimalists of many stripes and Language Poets) but who cares? And on top of who cares that always depends on or at least falls into an Oedipal narrative which itself has been debunked and looks ridiculous. Phooey. Plus I like the collaborative, both within and across generations. Interesting that you bring up O'Hara. I think the "naturalness" of his writing, the chatty "hey, so I'm going to lunch" aspect, is natural-ized by his immediate followers more than by O'Hara himself. For one thing, early O'Hara can feel very artificial, in the best sense, even using "dumb" rhymes in the way we've been discussing: "At night Chinamen jump / on Asia with a thump," and then later in the poem my personal favorite, "these apples roll beneath our buttocks like a heath // full of Chinese thrushes / flushed from China's bushes." Talk about artificial! It turns the "mystery" of China and Chinese people inside out ?? that poem should be called "I don't know shit about China." The later O'Hara ?? the "I do this I do that" poems, are artificial in a different way: it has to do with thinking of the Self as theatrical: like in "Why I am Not a Painter" the way his descriptions of his own movements feel like stage directions ?? "I drop in?I go?I go?I drop in." You're right, though, the off-the-cuff casualness can make O'Hara feel like a beat poet sometimes, like Gregory Corso, say (who O'Hara really admired) and the issue of the line being the length of a breath (Olson's idea associated w/ the Black Mountain poets) was certainly necessary as a way to opt out of the Formalism of the Day but had its own pitfalls too. Actually, if you read O'Hara's "Personism: A Manifesto" as a response to (if not a full repudiation of) Olson's "Projective Verse" (where this line/breath connection takes full flower), then this oft-quoted line of O'Hara's becomes pretty interesting: As for measure and for other technical apparatus, that's just common sense: if you're going to buy a pair of pants you want them to be tight enough so everyone will want to go to bed with you. There's nothing metaphysical about it. Unless of course you flatter yourself into thinking that what you're experiencing is "yearning." Of course some poets & critics say that that's precisely what O'Hara was experiencing, yearning, and that desire is his metaphysics, his transcendental Signifier. I don't buy that though. **************** POLITICAL SONG, CONFUSED VOICING you tongued my battleship! you bonged my tattle-tale you maimed my mamby-pamby Wagnered my Nietzsche and gotcha'd my sweatshop there ain't room in heaven for us you stapled my skeptic my uptick went septic you bled on my chopsticks cropped all my flowers and bred them for outtakes there ain't room in heaven for us poll tested my pontiff fed chess to my mastiff smashed half my glass ceilings you felted our failings racked, broke and called solids there ain't room in heaven for us if Astors passed AFSCME through ashcan-clad plastics you'd prob'ly statistic my dipstick with arsenic as I blabbed a Catholic as I fact checked a frat kid passed out past his GMAT prepped, tucked and dogmatic there ain't room in heaven for us what buckled the vulgate is good for the frigate that buffered the big one pigged out at the picnic there ain't room in heaven for fuck 'em with upshot and there ain't room in heaven for us a Texas-sized peach fuzz is hell on the ground blood a star-struck fetishist honks for burnt curtains but you rented my benchmark you birthmarked my precedent pressed bets, rolled sevens packed cherubs for action you prayed on my carpet you bombed my parade and there ain't room in heaven no there ain't room in heaven no there ain't room in heaven for us From wasanthony Fri May 4 10:18:18 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 07:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Hecht in advance In-Reply-To: <21.b29a6ba.2824011a@aol.com> Message-ID: <20010504141818.42082.qmail@web12103.mail.yahoo.com> Lot's Wife How simple the pleasures of those childhood days, simple but filled with exquisite satisfactions. The iridescent labyrinth of the spider, its tethered tensor nest of polygons puffed by the breeze to a little bellying sail-- merely observing this gave infinite pleasure. The sound of rain. The gentle graphite veil of rain that makes of the world a steel engraving, full of soft fadings and faint distances. The self-congratulations of a fly, rubbing its hands. The brown bicameral brain of a walnut. The smell of wax. The feel of sugar to the tongue: a delicious sand. One understands immediately how Proust might cherish all such postage-stamp details. Who can resist the charms of retrospection? Seems tired to me, and of little consequence. Is there something energetic and at least new in some way in that collection? - Jim --- JforJames at aol.com wrote: > Date: 5/3/01 11:02:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time > From: webmaster at randomhouse.com > Reply-to: knopfwebmaster at randomhouse.com > To: JforJames at aol.com > > A poem by Anthony Hecht from the upcoming collection THE DARKNESS AND > THE > LIGHT (June 12): > > > Lot???s Wife > > How simple the pleasures of those childhood days, > Simple but filled with exquisite satisfactions. > The iridescent labyrinth of the spider, > Its tethered tensor nest of polygons > Puffed by the breeze to a little bellying sail-- > Merely observing this gave infinite pleasure. > The sound of rain. The gentle graphite veil > Of rain that makes of the world a steel engraving, > Full of soft fadings and faint distances. > The self-congratulations of a fly, > Rubbing its hands. The brown bicameral brain > Of a walnut. The smell of wax. The feel > Of sugar to the tongue: a delicious sand. > One understands immediately how Proust > Might cherish all such postage-stamp details. > Who can resist the charms of retrospection? > > Copyright (c) 2001 by Anthony Hecht > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From grahamd Fri May 4 10:46:31 2001 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 09:46:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dunning langpo In-Reply-To: <200105041308.JAA12574@dept.english.upenn.edu> References: <3AF1AACD.4C8EAB1A@columbia.edu> from "Jeffrey Jullich" at May 3, 2001 03:00:30 pm Message-ID: I want to thank Mike Magee for posting this, and more broadly for trying to engage in discussion across aesthetic battle lines in productive ways. For various real-life reasons I'm afraid I need to beg off any more considered reflection on matters of rhyme and convention for the time being, but I wanted to applaud his efforts publicly. Mike also provided a fascinating discussion a little while back when he posted Ben Friedlander's remarks attacking his own opinions on Sylvia Plath/pedagogy, etc. I think that may be a first: never seen anyone initiate a discussion by attacking *himself* in this way before! I've wished I had more time to participate myself. Alerted by Mike that there was (surprise! surprise!) some Stephen Dunn-bashing going on at the Poetics list, I cruised their archives (http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A1=ind0105&L=poetics ) and reminded myself quickly why I am no longer subscribed there. Amidst some valid complaints that Dunn misunderstands and condescends to Language Poetry, and is smug about it to boot, I found little but condescension and misunderstanding--smug would be too kind a word for most of it-- aimed in the other direction. In particular, I think the take on "new formalism" routinely found in those precincts is every bit as grotesquely oversimplified as any mainstreamer's attitude toward langpo. But that's another list. For now, I just wanted to thank Mike for providing such a shining counter-example to such stuff. To my mind, a chief value of this list is that it has the potential, anyway, to avoid descending into mere boosterism for one camp or another. David Graham ---------------------------------------- >Hi all you Buffalos and new-poetry listees (to whom this is cross-posted) >I wanted to say something about Jeffrey Jullich's last post to the Buffalo >List, part of the "Dunn gets Pulitzer" thread which has evolved into >something different, specifically this idea: > >The shell of the ("traditional") prosodic structure may be inherently >neutral and, as an empty vessel, equally --- if not more --- malleable >to an asyntactical "content." > >And richard's response: > >"Jeffrey. The New Formalists writing in metre and rhyme are a pathetic >lot. >Who wants to be bound by a lot of quite arbitrary rules?" > >I'm not particularly sympathetic to New Formalism (surprised?) but I have >become interested lately in rhyme. Below is an excerpt from a >conversation I published between my brother (painter living in Brooklyn) >and I for the new "Poets & Painters" series at the Writers House in >Philly. We were talking about appropriating elements of traditional form >(say, very photorealistic figure drawing, or descriptive writing which was >unironized on the local level - - tho ironized by whatever it abridged >perhaps) and I brought up the issue of rhyme. With apologies for any >formatting problems (I've pasted this in and you know how that can be) >here's what I said: > > >[MIKE: Another way to consider this - - which involves not employing the >styles of one's hip immediate predecessors but older more outmoded forms >which the hip immediate predecessors deemed off limits - - is with Rhyme. >As I mentioned the Language Poets (hip immediate predecessors who I've >learned a lot from) were pretty antagonistic towards rhyme, with good >reason: for one thing there was that sense, amazingly still around in the >mainstream / big press world of poetry that rhyme was, if not always >desirable, than at least difficult to do and thus a measure of Talent. >For another, there was/is a sense that using sound to develop a rich >texture had a philosophical/theological point behind it: that rhymes were >a matter of Natural Convergences. So, using rhyme, you were either the >Great Artificer or the Transcendental Sound Conveyor, and either way you >were screwed ("no intuitive well of sonic richness," Bob Perelman >insisted). A third option was/is doggerel: which has a long interesting >history but it's tough avoiding "There once was a man from Nantucket?" and >I think with doggerel you fall into the same problems we discussed >regarding parody. So. So I think some younger poets are finding >interesting, experimental ways to use rhyme, partly thanks to hip-hop, >partly perhaps thanks to the various language theories focussed in on the >materiality of the work. Part of the pain-in-the-ass that was Rhymed >Poetry involved it's marriage to Narrative Poetry: so that the real sign >of excellence involved keeping your rhymes invisible, out of the way of >your story but nonetheless heard as sweet music. But what if rhyme >actually drives what's being said: > >I walked in the forest like an elephant >Everything I saw seemed irrelevant > >I walked through the forest like a donkey >Everything I saw seemed on key > >I flew over the river Volga >Around it milled a people vulgar > >That's from Eugene Ostashevsky's "I Locked the House of Myself" which is >in Combo 7. The joke about rhyme directing narrative ("Everything I saw >seemed on key") is played out in the next couplet where the people are >vulgar not because they are vulgar (and here the poem takes on political >overtones for me) but because of the need for an approximate sound. As I >said, hip-hop often has this emphasis on the materiality of rhyme >(jump-rope rhymes do to) and that first couplet reminds me of these ones >>from Busta Rhymes, "I roam through the forest / just like a Brontosaurus / >Born in the month of may so my sign is Taurus / I kick you in the face >like my fuckin' name was Chuck Norris." (I suppose there's a narrative >coherence in the idea of masculine toughness but it's really about the >search for a rhyme -- the giveaway is in the need to keep extending the >meter.) > >[severely snipp'd] __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From paul.lake Fri May 4 00:46:34 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 23:46:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dunning Lango Message-ID: Michael, the following poem by Stevens fits into your thesis about sound and artifice in interesting ways. Paul Lake Bantams in a Pine Woods Chieftain Iffucan of Azcan in caftan Of tan with henna hackles, halt! Damned universal cock, as if the sun Was blackamoor to bear your blazing tail. Fat! Fat! Fat! Fat! I am the personal. Your world is you. I am my world. You ten-foot poet among inchlings. Fat! Begone! An inchling bristles in these pines, Bristles, and points their Appalachian tangs, And fears not portly Azcan nor his hoos. From mmagee Fri May 4 12:11:04 2001 From: mmagee (Michael Magee) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 12:11:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dunning Lango In-Reply-To: from "Paul Lake" at May 3, 2001 11:46:34 pm Message-ID: <200105041611.MAA18709@dept.english.upenn.edu> Paul, yes it sure does, including that little my brother mentioned about minstrelsy. Bob Perelman once said to me (& others) "Stevens is a soundaholic." It's an intriguing aspect of his work - those moments when the sound machine lifts off the narrative soil. -m. According to Paul Lake: > > Michael, the following poem by Stevens fits into your thesis about sound and > artifice in interesting ways. > > Paul Lake > > > Bantams in a Pine Woods > > Chieftain Iffucan of Azcan in caftan > Of tan with henna hackles, halt! > > Damned universal cock, as if the sun > Was blackamoor to bear your blazing tail. > > Fat! Fat! Fat! Fat! I am the personal. > Your world is you. I am my world. > > You ten-foot poet among inchlings. Fat! > Begone! An inchling bristles in these pines, > > Bristles, and points their Appalachian tangs, > And fears not portly Azcan nor his hoos. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From JoFuhrman Fri May 4 12:12:00 2001 From: JoFuhrman (Joanna Fuhrman) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 09:12:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Hecht in advance Message-ID: <33488419.988992720868.JavaMail.imail@neon.excite.com> > Seems tired to me, and of little consequence. Is there something > energetic and at least new in some way in that collection? > > - Jim >Jim, I agree that the poem as a whole is pretty tired. The end is really terrible-- it's like Proust for Dummies. But what's weird is I think something kind of interesting IS happening in the middle of the poem. > > >The gentle graphite veil > > Of rain that makes of the world a steel engraving, > > Full of soft fadings and faint distances. > > The self-congratulations of a fly, > > Rubbing its hands. The brown bicameral brain > > Of a walnut. I kind of like the way these images conflate the self-conscious act of writing with the act of seeing. (the rain is pencil led, the fly is a sort of egotistic poet, the nut's a brain) There's also an interesting relationship between the sounds and the meanings. These sorts of images while they on the surface might look like description are really different than the later images. The smell of wax. The feel > > Of sugar to the tongue: a delicious sand. > > The later images are just objects without an interesting cognitive component. One could argue that these images are metaphoric of "things passing" but I just think that idea is old and dull and obvious.It closes things off instead of opening them up. I mean I just think its sad because Hecht is clearly capable of writing a more interesting poem-- Because of poems like this people sometimes think that all poems that look like "description" of the natural world objectify it or commodify it, which clearly isn't the case. Can't a powerful image disrupt old habits of thinking as much as the play/shift of syntax that Mike seems to advocate. -Joanna _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ From eselinge Fri May 4 12:44:57 2001 From: eselinge (Eric Selinger) Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 11:44:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Langpo, Rhyme, Etc. Message-ID: Reading the post on Lang-po and rhyme, I chuckled to see this original posting: "Jeffrey. The New Formalists writing in metre and rhyme are a pathetic lot. Who wants to be bound by a lot of quite arbitrary rules?" To which the obvious answer is: "Well, they want to. I sometimes want to, as when I set a formal table for a dinner party. Anyone who plays a card game or a sport must want to, on some level, otherwise we'd all golf like my 2 year old daughter, walking up to the hole and dropping the ball in and wondering what all the fuss is about. Browsing the personal ads in my local weekly paper there seem to be a lot of folks who enjoy being bound by a lot of quite arbitrary rules (not to mention leather underwear, ball-gags, etc.) Choosing to be bound by some set of arbitrary rules can be, in fact, one of the great pleasures of adult life--especially when you let yourself then break them, once in a while." Goodness! Is that the best objection Jeffery's interlocutor could come up with? EMS From moira_russell Fri May 4 13:17:55 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 09:17:55 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Langpo, Rhyme, Etc. Message-ID: Jeffrey posts: "The New Formalists writing in metre and rhyme are a pathetic lot. Who wants to be bound by a lot of quite arbitrary rules?" Eric ripostes: "Browsing the personal ads in my local weekly paper there seem to be a lot of folks who enjoy being bound by a lot of quite arbitrary rules (not to mention leather underwear, ball-gags, etc.) Choosing to be bound by some set of arbitrary rules can be, in fact, one of the great pleasures of adult life--especially when you let yourself then break them, once in a while." This reminds me of A.E. Stallings' great phrase "the playful, silk-ribbon bondage of the sonnet." She wrote an interesting essay on formal verse which appeared in the "Alsop Review" and is available at http://www.alsopreview.com/aside/stallings/aesthoughts.html (I think it's also at her website). Below are some excerpts. Moira Russell Seattle, WA *** "I am not against free verse. Indeed, I admire those who can do it well; I cannot. For me, however, to rule out meter or rhyme as tools available to the poet is far more limiting than the playful, silk-ribbon bondage of the sonnet. Free verse, at least in its contemporary guise, has only three major tools at its disposal (though many do wonders with them): the line break, the image (metaphor or simile), and, possibly, diction. Many free-verse poets dispense even with the last, by adopting a severe form of the ?plain style.? The plain style reminds me a bit of newspaper ads, when I was in Atlanta, offering classes to ?lose your accent.? Such a curious thing, to lose an accent! Because, of course, one doesn?t lose an accent, one just trades it for another (mid-western, middle-American--which, of course, to a Brit or an Australian, is still an accent.) Not many years ago, a certain poet, a practitioner of the plain style, wrote a book detailing his ordeal with a plagiarist, who was copying his poems, with only a few modest changes, and passing them off as his own. I am sure this was traumatic, and I am appalled that it happened, but some mischievous part of me did wonder, if he were not a free-verse poet writing in the plainest of plain styles, how easy would he have been to plagiarize? "Of course, despite some noises from the neo-formalist camp, formal verse does not possess any innate superiority either; it is only a tool. Pound put forth the common-sense caveat that poetry should be at least as well written as prose. I would add to that, that formal verse should be at least as well written as free verse. In other words, there is no more excuse for sloppy imagery, diction, fuzzy thinking, or sentimentality in a poem than scans and rhymes than there is for one that does not. (The term ?neo formalism,? by the way, is absurd. There is nothing new about form, nor has it ever ceased from being written, making a break between old and new.) "A lot of misconceptions persist around formal verse, sometimes held not only by those with a bias against it, but by the practitioners themselves. These include, but are not limited to, that formal verse is artificial (and therefore bad; not able to express naturally), regressive, conservative not only aesthetically but politically, socially and academically elitist (and even sexist), and delivers a false sense of closure in an uncertain world." (She goes on to discuss about a number of arguments against formal poetry which have been raised on this list, in fact.) I'm also reminded of one of my favorite quotes about art & artifice: Once out of nature I shall never take My bodily form from any natural thing, But such a form as Grecian goldsmiths make Of hammered gold and gold enamelling To keep a drowsy Emperor awake; Or set upon a golden bough to sing To lords and ladies of Byzantium Of what is past, or passing, or to come. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From alsop Fri May 4 19:34:49 2001 From: alsop (Jaimes Alsop) Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 16:34:49 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Auden References: <42.1439f20c.2822ff4a@aol.com> Message-ID: <3AF33C99.E6408E0B@alsopreview.com> I'd recommend the Selected rather than the Collected Auden. Most poets turn out a fair amount of mediocre poetry in their careers and Auden was no exception. There's lots (and lots!) of the very worst of English, old-school, upper-class twit, look-how-clever-I-am! stuff in the Collected. Very time-consuming, tedious and best avoided. My books are packed for a forthcoming move so I'm not much help with the titles but there are two books of essays by Auden. One's called A Certain World, the other escapes me for the moment. It should be easy to track down, however. In passing, Auden and Larkin were my particular field of study for many years and I'd have to say that everything you'd want to know about either of them can be found in their work. I can't think of another poet I'd say the same for. Jaimes -- Jaimes Alsop The Alsop Review http://www.alsopreview.com From moira_russell Fri May 4 15:53:30 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 11:53:30 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Auden Message-ID: Jaimes Alsop wrote: >there are two books of essays by Auden. One's called A Certain World, the >other escapes me for the moment. "The Dyer's Hand, and Other Essays"? This looks like a nice book of Auden http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0571115020/qid=989005870/sr=1-2/ref=sc_b_3/104-0218872-8280762 Have to admit I am not fond of later Auden, with all of the Capitalized Yet Not Personified Abstractions. I like his love poems. I think there is a special collection of them as well. Agree with you about Auden and Larkin. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From moira_russell Fri May 4 16:14:48 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 12:14:48 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens and Emotion Message-ID: Eric Selinger wrote: >Like Moira, I had trouble connecting with Stevens' work on any emotional >level, heart or gut or giggle, until I read (speaking of the Value of >Criticism), Helen Vendler's little collection of essays on WS, "Words >Chosen Out of Desire," especially the essay "Stevens' Secrecies." Good, now I have a reading list: Vendler Palm at the End of the Mind Harmonium Should be fun. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From CobbCoStudioArts Fri May 4 16:26:14 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 13:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dunning Lango Message-ID: <20010504202614.87BCC274F@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From CobbCoStudioArts Fri May 4 16:39:06 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 13:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dunning Lango Message-ID: <20010504203906.E52E62744@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From alsop Fri May 4 20:45:09 2001 From: alsop (Jaimes Alsop) Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 17:45:09 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Auden References: Message-ID: <3AF34D15.2AECCCE9@alsopreview.com> Moira Russell wrote: > > "The Dyer's Hand, and Other Essays"? > That's the one. Thankyou Moira. Jaimes -- Jaimes Alsop The Alsop Review http://www.alsopreview.com From moira_russell Fri May 4 17:17:55 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 13:17:55 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Auden Message-ID: >Moira Russell wrote: > > > > > "The Dyer's Hand, and Other Essays"? > > > >That's the one. Thankyou Moira. > >Jaimes I agree, it's very very good. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From wasanthony Fri May 4 17:18:05 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 14:18:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Hecht in advance In-Reply-To: <33488419.988992720868.JavaMail.imail@neon.excite.com> Message-ID: <20010504211805.71119.qmail@web12104.mail.yahoo.com> --- Joanna Fuhrman wrote: > > > Seems tired to me, and of little consequence. Is there something > > energetic and at least new in some way in that collection? > > > > - Jim > > >Jim, > > I agree that the poem as a whole is pretty tired. The end is really > terrible-- it's like Proust for Dummies. But what's weird is I think > something kind of interesting IS happening in the middle of the poem. > > > > > >The gentle graphite veil > > > Of rain that makes of the world a steel engraving, > > > Full of soft fadings and faint distances. > > > The self-congratulations of a fly, > > > Rubbing its hands. The brown bicameral brain > > > Of a walnut. > > I kind of like the way these images conflate the self-conscious act > of > writing with the act of seeing. (the rain is pencil led, the fly is a > sort > of egotistic poet, the nut's a brain) There's also an interesting > relationship between the sounds and the meanings. > > These sorts of images while they on the surface might look like > description > are really different than the later images. > Joanna: I agree with you there. And, you know what, your paraphrase I like more than the original: The rain is pencil lead, the fly an egotistical poet, the nut's a brain . . . Remiscent of Lowell, huh? - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From halvard Fri May 4 23:27:22 2001 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 23:27:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Ted Wilentz Message-ID: Ron Silliman posted the following article to another list just recently. I met Ted Wilentz some years ago at a poetry do in Washington, DC, where he and, I believe, his wife were living in retirement in one of the Maryland suburbs. The 8th Street Bookstore many of you in or of the NYC area will remember, I'm sure. Hal ******************************************************** From nwilliams Fri May 4 12:59:09 2001 From: nwilliams (Norman Williams) Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 12:59:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Langpo, Rhyme, Etc. Message-ID: Confidential to Jeffrey et al: The rules aren't arbitrary. From CobbCoStudioArts Sat May 5 13:36:57 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 10:36:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Wired Art from Wired Hearts/TOOT Message-ID: <20010505173657.72E8B2747@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From rloden Sun May 6 19:54:48 2001 From: rloden (Rachel Loden) Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 16:54:48 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Larkin's daffodils References: Message-ID: <3AF5E448.C7ED49C1@concentric.net> Moira Russell wrote: > Gee, this > couldn't possibly be because Larkin had a fairly nasty, glum, grim view of > life, could it? (He was the one who said depression was for him what > daffodils were for Wordsworth.) Actually, he said deprivation (rather than depression) was for him what daffodils were for Wordsworth. It seems an important distinction. Rachel -- Rachel Loden http://www.thepomegranate.com/loden/hotel.html email: rloden at concentric.net From wasanthony Sun May 6 21:16:57 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 18:16:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Wired Art from Wired Hearts/TOOT In-Reply-To: <20010505173657.72E8B2747@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <20010507011657.78044.qmail@web12103.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Robert R.Cobb" wrote: > May ~ June 2001 issue of Wired Art from Wired Hearts is on line. May > I > present ~~ > > ******************** > ART > ******************** > > This painting by Linda Cornelius is the official image for the 2001 > African > Movie Festival. I can see why. I love that little guy! > http://wiredheart.hispeed.com/may01/linda_cornelius_1.html > > Alsocatch her mythical birds & fantastic art work > http://wiredheart.hispeed.com/may01/linda_cornelius_2.html Found those a bit . . . what? . . . Sweet? > > Fusionist and hologram artist, Ronald Warunek. Interesting indeed. > http://wiredheart.hispeed.com/may01/ronald_warunek_1.html Now this I liked! Next step for the web is the capability of reproducing holograms on/beyond our screens. > > Andrew Hersey paints his travel goddesses. Hey, they actually talk. > No > lie. Maybe they are real. > http://wiredheart.hispeed.com/may01/andrew_hersey_1.html He's living a fantasy on the web. But who isn't, to some degree. > > He also takes us on a strange tour in > http://wiredheart.hispeed.com/may01/andrew_hersey_2.html > Redundancy. Thanks for these. It's good to explore other means of expresssion. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From alsop Mon May 7 01:19:04 2001 From: alsop (Jaimes Alsop) Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 22:19:04 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Larkin's daffodils References: <3AF5E448.C7ED49C1@concentric.net> Message-ID: <3AF63048.D6DF4B54@alsopreview.com> > > Gee, this > > couldn't possibly be because Larkin had a fairly nasty, glum, grim view of > > life, could it? (He was the one who said depression was for him what > > daffodils were for Wordsworth.) Hmmm. Well, I obviously missed part of the conversation here. I've never thought of Larkin as being 'nasty' or 'glum' or 'grim'. A sweet melancholy would be a more accurate description, I feel. His humour, always self-deprecating, is what transfigures his work. Auden once defined compassion as "love with understanding" and that rather describes Larkin's outlook too. He wasn't fooled by the world, his outlook wasn't optimistic, but that didn't prevent him from loving it nonetheless. Even what could be described as his darkest works have a wry smile to them, a twinkle in the eye. Nasty? Grim? I think not. -- Jaimes Alsop The Alsop Review http://www.alsopreview.com From moira_russell Mon May 7 00:43:40 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 20:43:40 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Larkin's daffodils Message-ID: Jaimes, I'd be interested in hearing which poems of Larkin's you think have the characteristics of "sweet melancholy" in them. The poet to my mind who exemplifies sweet melancholy is Housman. I've never found Larkin anything but bitter. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From moira_russell Mon May 7 00:54:08 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 20:54:08 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Aubade by Philip Larkin Message-ID: Aubade Philip Larkin I work all day, and get half drunk at night. Waking at four to soundless dark, I stare. In time the curtain edges will grow light. Till then I see what's really always there: Unresting death, a whole day nearer now, Making all thought impossible but how And where and when I shall myself die. Arid interrogation: yet the dread Of dying, and being dead, Flashes afresh to hold and horrify. - The good not used, the love not given, time Torn off unused - nor wretchedly because An only life can take so long to climb Clear of its wrong beginnings, and may never: But at the total emptiness forever, The sure extinction that we travel to And shall be lost in always. Not to be here, Not to be anywhere, And soon; nothing more terrible, nothing more true. This is a special way of being afraid No trick dispels. Religion used to try, That vast moth-eaten musical brocade Created to pretend we never die, And specious stuff that says no rational being Can fear a thing it cannot feel, not seeingthat this is what we fear - no sight, no sound, No touch or taste or smell, nothing to think with, Nothing to love or link with, The anaesthetic from which none come round. And so it stays just on the edge of vision, A small unfocused blur, a standing chill That slows each impulse down to indecision Most things may never happen: this one will, And realisation of it rages out People or drink. Courage is no good: It means not scaring others. Being brave Lets no-one off the grave. Death is no different whined at than withstood. Slowly light strengthens, and the room takes shape. It stands plain as a wardrobe, what we know, Have always known, know that we can't escape Yet can't accept. One side will have to go. Meanwhile telephones crouch, getting ready to ring In locked-up offices, and all the uncaring Intricate rented world begins to rouse. The sky is white as clay, with no sun. Work has to be done. Postmen like doctors go from house to house. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From alsop Mon May 7 06:15:24 2001 From: alsop (Jaimes Alsop) Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 03:15:24 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Larkin's daffodils References: Message-ID: <3AF675BC.23A7507@alsopreview.com> > I'd be interested in hearing which poems of Larkin's you think have the > characteristics of "sweet melancholy" in them. The poet to my mind who > exemplifies sweet melancholy is Housman. I've never found Larkin anything > but bitter. 'Aubade' is often trotted out as typical of Larkin's bitterness in much the same way 'This Be The Verse' is trotted out as typical of his hilarious sense of humour. Neither is in fact true since they are the exceptions rather than the rule. My books are packed for the move but off the top of my head I'd say 'I remember, I remember', The Whitsun Weddings' and the long, unfinished poem in the Collected are closer to his mark. Larkin is also, I suspect, largely misunderstood outside of England in much the same way Prevert is (or was, anyway) misunderstood outside of France. Misunderstood may be the wrong word. Misread might be a better one. The Bleaney poem, the 'old toad' poems, the Church-going poem, will all bring a wry smile when read in England. We remember those post-war days, those cities, all too well. It's part of growing up there. Larkin was the most famous, the best-selling poet in England for donkey's years and it wasn't because he was bitter or grim. It was because he was topical. To read Larkin today is to read a dated book. His points of reference aren't there any more. The drab streets, the dreary furnished rooms, were once all too real, for all of us, not just Larkin. He understood it, understood how we all felt and made us smile at ourselves about it, too. We love what we do best, what we understand, I suppose. He loved it so much he never left it. He turned down countless lucrative offers to tour and read. He moved from furnished room to furnished room most of his life. Furnished, dreary perhaps, but also close by the corner pub he could amble over to. Another English thing. Even when England was recovering from the war and rebuilding itself, spiritually and economically, he stayed closest to what he knew, moving to Hull (one of the last cities in England to recover from the war - if it has yet) working as a librarian, probably one of the dullest, boring beaurocratic jobs at the time. (While at Hull, incidentally, he revised the library filing system to such an extent his innovations were eventually adopted by the entire library system of England, later by France and even later by the USA. Hardly the product of a bitter, disillusioned man) He was painfully shy, embarrassed even ( regarding his status as poet, at least) but managed to make -and keep- firm friendships among the literati of London. For all the furnished rooms there were sufficient side trips to dinners and plays to satisfy almost anyone. Me, certainly. He died in the company of his friends, with a very healthy bank account (he didn't *need* the librarian's paycheck) and at peace with the world. I'd wish as much for myself. Or you. Give him another go. Read him seriously, but ever-so-slightly tongue-in-cheek. He's much better than 'bitter'. Much, much better. -- Jaimes Alsop The Alsop Review http://www.alsopreview.com From mbales Mon May 7 08:14:47 2001 From: mbales (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 08:14:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] At Grass - Larkin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At Grass Philip Larkin The eye can hardly pick them out From the cold shade they shelter in, Till wind distresses tail and mane; Then one crops grass, and moves about -- The other seeming to look on -- And stands anonymous again. Yet fifteen years ago, perhaps Two dozen distances sufficed To fable them: faint afternoons Of Cups and Stakes and Handicaps, Whereby their names were artificed To inlay faded, classic Junes -- Silks at the start: against the sky Numbers and parasols: outside Squadrons of empty cars, and heat, And littered grass: then the long cry Hanging unhushed till it subside To stop-press columns on the street. Do memories plague their ears like flies? They shake their heads. Dusk brims the shadows. Summer by summer all stole away, The starting-gates, the crowds and cries -- All but the unmolesting meadows. Almanacked, their names live; they Have slipped their names, and stand at ease, Or gallop for what must be joy, And not a fieldglass sees them home, Or curious stop-watch prophesies: Only the groom, and the groom's boy, With bridles in the evening come. mbales at cybergate.net From CobbCoStudioArts Mon May 7 08:23:51 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 05:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Wired Art from Wired Hearts/TOOT Message-ID: <20010507122351.943A4275F@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From halvard Mon May 7 08:57:10 2001 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 08:57:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnet - Mayer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sonnet My hand is like a muffin just baked in the electrocuting toaster under the light of the smoke detector full of American Americium to create the further tumors that make poets underpaid in life compared to the more dismal occu- pations like vacuum cleaning or storing thoughts in machines or selling objects to people Writing poems is really dumb but fuck it even we want entertainment I saw the art of the city today smokestacks and buildings from the hospital windows where everybody I know is imprisoned and being demeaned on demerol or else everything's o.k. thank god they're all fine having had operations in there you wouldn't want to sleep with me in exchange would you? This is my new form of sonnet This is the closing of it Please don't stop loving me right this moment Or else one of us might kill the other Just like in the papers. --Bernadette Mayer Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From wasanthony Mon May 7 09:12:35 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 06:12:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Wired Art from Wired Hearts/TOOT In-Reply-To: <20010507122351.943A4275F@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <20010507131235.85136.qmail@web12107.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Robert R.Cobb" wrote: > Jim, > > I thank you for your polite review on the "ART." I assume that you > have not had any time to read, review, comment upon, the rest of the > "issue." Either that, or you have read the rest of the issue and > decided it > worthy of ommission. > The former, Bob. It's last week of classes! - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From wasanthony Mon May 7 09:22:25 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 06:22:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnet - Mayer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010507132225.14951.qmail@web12106.mail.yahoo.com> This poem is a shriek of post-modern anxiety it doesn't want to call a computer a computer it might show up and cash in on the offer proving love can engulf like a downdraft of carcinogens or at least lick the hurt hand an old-fashioned stamp with its momentary face maybe even stick its moist tongue like a bagel into slot A or B toaster jazz Moloch without a proper name etc. - Jim --- Halvard Johnson wrote: > Sonnet > > My hand is like a muffin just baked in the electrocuting > toaster under the light of the smoke detector full of > American Americium to create the further tumors that make > poets underpaid in life compared to the more dismal occu- > pations like vacuum cleaning or storing thoughts in machines > or selling objects to people > > Writing poems is really dumb but fuck it even we want > entertainment I saw the art of the city today smokestacks > and buildings from the hospital windows where everybody > I know is imprisoned and being demeaned on demerol or else > everything's o.k. thank god they're all fine having had > operations in there you wouldn't want to sleep with me in > exchange would you? > > This is my new form of sonnet > This is the closing of it > Please don't stop loving me right this moment > Or else one of us might kill the other > Just like in the papers. > > --Bernadette Mayer > > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From tadrichards Mon May 7 09:32:42 2001 From: tadrichards (OTIS RICHARDS) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 09:32:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Larkin's daffodils References: Message-ID: <001701c0d6fa$32200060$6401a8c0@ibm25310> Poetry of Departures certainly has sweet melancholy in it. So, in it's own way, does High Windows. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Moira Russell" To: Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 12:43 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Larkin's daffodils > Jaimes, > > I'd be interested in hearing which poems of Larkin's you think have the > characteristics of "sweet melancholy" in them. The poet to my mind who > exemplifies sweet melancholy is Housman. I've never found Larkin anything > but bitter. > > Moira Russell > Seattle, WA > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Jandhodge Mon May 7 09:42:12 2001 From: Jandhodge (Jandhodge at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 09:42:12 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Larkin's daffodils Message-ID: <3b.141ffc14.28280034@aol.com> Jaimes Alsop wrote on Larkin: << Give him another go. Read him seriously, but ever-so-slightly tongue-in-cheek. He's much better than 'bitter'. Much, much better. >> Thanks, Jaimes. My overall sense of him has been much closer to what you write, even in "Audabe," which contains one of my favorite metaphors: "Religion . . . / That vast moth-eaten musical brocade / Created to pretend we never die." Seems to me a brilliantly sharp summary of much of the modern British attitude toward religion. Jan From JforJames Mon May 7 10:03:21 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 10:03:21 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Paul's Poems (NYTimes article) Message-ID: Paul McCartney Finds a New Mode for Expressing Love and Loss By SARAH LYALL Some years ago, Paul McCartney, famous musician and fledgling poet, took a deep breath and showed a selection of his poetic works in progress to his old friend Allen Ginsberg. Ginsberg, who was visiting Mr. McCartney at his house in Sussex, England, had some thoughts. "He was all for economy," Sir Paul, as he has been known the last few years, said recently in his friendly Liverpudlian lilt, recalling his frisson of fear when Ginsberg took out his pencil and began cutting and tweaking. "He said to me: `Never use the word "the." And also try to avoid "ing" - don't use "singing," but use "sing" instead.' " When Ginsberg suggested he change a poem beginning "Two doors open on the 18th of June" to "Two doors open. June 18," the lyricist put his foot down. "I said it's great, but you're making me into a New York Beat poet," said Sir Paul, who kept a copy of the scribbled-over "Ginsberg Variations," as he calls them, for posterity, though he took none of Ginsberg's suggestions. Sir Paul is so used to having critical control that he submits to editing only reluctantly. "Sometimes I've made small suggestions for cuts or changes, and sometimes Paul's accepted them," writes his editor in Britain, the poet Adrian Mitchell, in the preface to Sir Paul's first book of poetry, "Blackbird Singing," which has just been published in the United States by W. W. Norton. And so the poems in the book are very much his own, expressing his familiar obsessions with love and loss and life's vicissitudes in language that is generally simple and direct. In the flesh for an interview at his office in New York, he could not help appearing startlingly familiar, as if he were a cousin who just happened to be really famous. While the other surviving Beatles seem to have grown sharper and craggier, Sir Paul, 58, has softened. His face is still boyish and open, albeit creased with minor wrinkles. Discussing his poems while sitting on an immaculate black couch across from a de Kooning painting, he was dressed in a T-shirt, plaid pants and the sort of clogs that a hipster surgeon might wear on hospital rounds. He is a canny manager of his empire and career, whose net worth, according to The Sunday Times of London, stands at more than $1 billion. In 1997 he was knighted by Queen Elizabeth, which made him officially Sir Paul. But it is as strange to think of him that way as it is to think of the rock star Bob Geldof - a knight as well, and far scruffier than the always clean and shiny Paul McCartney - as Sir Bob. One of the striking things about "Blackbird Singing" is the bold inclusion of some 50 of the former Beatle's lyrics among more than 40 poems, a decision that cannot help but raise the old question about whether lyrics stand as poetry in their own right. Sir Paul is not so sure, though he was cheered when Ginsberg told him, long ago, that " `Eleanor Rigby' is one hell of a poem." (Its lyrics appear in the book, along with those of "Hey Jude" and "Maxwell's Silver Hammer," among others.) Though they emanate from the same impulse, poems and songs come to him in very different ways, Sir Paul explained, mostly having to do with whether he has a musical instrument on hand. With songs he generally works through the lyrics and melody simultaneously, he said, illustrating his point by re-enacting on an imaginary piano how he hashed out the beginning of "Eleanor Rigby." "I was sitting at the piano vamping on the E minor chord," he said. He sang some of the notes, then began: "Da da da da da - Eleanor Rigby picks up the rice . . . And in actual fact, it wasn't Eleanor Rigby, it was something else, because I got the name Eleanor Rigby later. Sometimes the real words arrive, and sometimes I have to kind of go back and fix it." "It's like `Yesterday,' " he continued, starting to sing again. "At first it was `Scrambled eggs/ Oh my baby how I love your legs,' which I thought, `That's gotta be fixed. Can't go with that one.' " Similarly, he said, "Hey Jude," written for John Lennon's son Julian when his parents split up, was originally called "Hey Jules" until he decided that Jude was crisper. In poems, he said, the language tends to come and stay put. He wrote "Jerk of All Jerks," for instance, after being immersed, along with the rest of the world, in the news coverage of Lennon's murder in 1980. "The one phrase that came to my mind was that the guy who did it was the jerk of all jerks," Sir Paul said. The only other explicit reference to Lennon in the book comes in the lyrics to "Here Today," from 1982. It is an affectionate song, alluding to his and Lennon's mismatched temperaments and to Lennon's spikiness, but also to their underlying love. The two put aside their differences before Lennon died. "We had been arguing about stupid stuff - money and things, things that weren't really important in our relationship but were the kind of things people argue about," Sir Paul said. But then they began to talk again. "We talked about him baking bread, him putting the cats out, him padding around the apartment in his robe and slippers, him bringing up his baby, Sean," he recalled. "It was really intimate and mature, good real talk between friends." In a way, Lennon's ghost - the ghost of what might have been - haunts the book, as does the spirit of Sir Paul's wife, Linda, who died of breast cancer in 1998 and who inspired some of his sweetest love poems and songs. In 29 years of marriage, Mr. McCartney never spent a night apart from his wife except when he was in a Tokyo jail on drug charges in 1980, and he spent the year after her death in nearly constant grief, he said. He now has a girlfriend, Heather Mills, 33, a feisty former model whose leg was severed in an accident and who campaigns for land mine reform. As he discussed his wife's death and his new life, his volubility fled for a moment, and he jumped up to adjust a chair on the other side of the room that was not sitting perfectly in line with the carpet. "It was perhaps unlikely in my life that I would have two strong women who I felt so strongly about," he said carefully. "Even though it's early days in my new relationship, I do feel lucky to have met someone strong and interesting and beautiful." "Blackbird Singing" has been a best seller in Britain, but the critical reaction been mixed, as always happens when Sir Paul embarks on a new venture. Some critics were delighted: "Unlike more rarefied poets, who communicate mostly with each other in obscure crannies of our culture, McCartney writes as freely (and often as beautifully) as a blackbird sings," Stephen Logan wrote in The Sunday Times of London. But others have made it clear that they think his talents are strictly musical. "They're not bad so much as unfinished and inconsequential," Mark Hertsgaard wrote of the poems in The Los Angeles Times. The new poet tries not to care. "It's not as if I'm not used to it," he said. " `She Loves You' was called banal when it came out - it was the first time I had ever heard the word." And a review in The New York Times, he said, judged "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" "a very bad album," in Sir Paul's words. "But," he said, "I just get on with it." And, judging from Mr. McCartney's two poetry readings, one in Liverpool and the other at the 92nd Street Y in Manhattan, he is in no danger of losing his extraordinary appeal. Charming the onlookers out of their seats with engaging anecdotes, he ended both readings with rousing audience-participation recitations of "Why Don't We Do It in the Road?," included partly as a retort to critics who said some of his lyrics would not stand up to the rigors of being read aloud. In Liverpool he kept his cool even amid the most frenzied of fans. Swept up in a crowd of more than 1,000, he was greeted by a teenage girl who wore a vintage Beatlemania button that said "I slept with Paul McCartney." "Oh, really," said Mr. McCartney, flashing a huge grin, "When was that?" From JforJames Mon May 7 16:39:33 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 16:39:33 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Beats Message-ID: <7f.13ef6098.28286205@aol.com> SAN FRANCISCO BEAT: Talking with the Poets Edited by David Meltzer 0-87286-379-4 $19.95 City Lights Bookstore & Publishers 261 Columbus Ave. San Francisco, CA 94133 415-362-8193 mailto:staff at citylights.com http://www.citylights.com San Francisco Beat is an essential rememberance of the Beat Generation, a rich moment in a fortunate place. America, somnolent, conformist, and paranoid in the 1950s, was changed forever by a handful of people who refused an existence of drudgery and enterprise, opting instead for a life of personal, spiritual, and artistic adventure. In these intimate, free-wheeling conversations, a baker's dozen of the poets of San Francisco talk about the scene then and now, the traditions of poetry, and about anarchism, globalism, Zen, the Bomb, the Kabbalah, and the Internet. San Francisco Beat features major recent interviews with Diane di Prima, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Jack Hirschman, Joanne Kyger, Philip Lamantia, Michael McClure, Jack Micheline, Gary Snyder, and Philip Whalen--as well as with David Meltzer himself. Also included are David Meltzer's historic interviews with his poet friends Kenneth Rexroth, Michael McClure, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, William Everson, and Lew Welch--an archive of the San Francisco Renaissance first published thirty years ago in The San Francisco Poets. Now San Francisco Beat: Talking with the Poets complements these important records of the time with follow-up interviews with the living or with friends of the missing. David Meltzer is the author of many books of poetry, including Tens, The Name, Arrows: Selected Poetry 1957-1992, and No Eyes: Lester Young. He is the editor of Birth: An Anthology of Ancient Texts, Songs, Prayers, and Stories, The Secret Garden: Anthology of the Classical Kabbalah, Reading Jazz, and Writing Jazz, among other collections. His agit-smut fictions include Orf, The Agency Trilogy, and Under. Meltzer read poetry at the Jazz Cellar in the 1950s and in the 1960s fronted the psychedelic band, Serpent Power. He taught writing in Vacaville Prison but these days David Meltzer teaches poetics at New College of California in San Francisco. From JforJames Mon May 7 17:13:29 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 17:13:29 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Child's Gulag of Verse: The Dark Side of Nat'l Poetry Month Message-ID: Monday May 07 07:33 AM EDT Poetry Night flap leaves boy even more averse to verse Father says By Stacy St. Clair Daily Herald Staff Writer A Naperville father saw no rhyme or reason for a principal to force his son to attend a Poetry Night - and he filed a police report to prove it. Glenn Mendoza asked authorities to charge Spring Brook Elementary Principal Carl Pinnow with battery over the incident that occurred on school grounds late last month. The trouble began when Mendoza's 9-year-old son told his parents he did not want to go to Poetry Night, an after-hours program students are not required to attend. His parents sent the boy's teacher a note saying he would not participate in the April 26 event. "It's not his bag," his father said. "We didn't think it would be detrimental to his academic career if he didn't go to Poetry Night." As Poetry Night festivities were beginning, Mendoza's son asked his parents' permission to go to the school playground less than a block away. Twenty minutes later, he returned home crying and shaking. While at the school, the boy told his parents the principal came out and asked him why he was not attending Poetry Night. Mendoza said his son responded he didn't like poetry. Pinnow, apparently unhappy with the response, ushered the boy into the school. Police said both sides agree Pinnow touched the boy while escorting him into the building but differ on the amount of force that was used. The Mendoza family contends Pinnow grabbed his son by the arm and pulled him inside; the principal told authorities he gently guided the boy into school. The principal took the boy to the boiler room to store his bicycle, police said. Once there, Pinnow began questioning the boy about why he wasn't at Poetry Night. When the third-grader said his parents had excused him, Pinnow left the boy alone in the boiler room and went to consult the teacher. Police said both versions of events also differ on whether the principal closed the door while interrogating the boy and checking with the teacher. After the teacher verified the boy's account, Mendoza said Pinnow lectured his son about the importance of poetry. The principal released the boy around 7:20 p.m., according to his father. "He came home crying and shaking," Mendoza said. "The kid was totally distraught." Naperville police still were processing the report Friday. The department will forward it to the Will County state's attorney office if Mendoza demands it, but Capt. Paul Shafer said it was highly unlikely he would recommend charges. "I doubt very much I am going to find criminal intent," Shafer said. Pinnow has the authority to handle matters in his school as long as he does not break any laws. Barring that, any questions about how he handled the situation should be managed by the school district, Shafer said. The school district conducted - and has concluded - its own investigation. Indian Prairie Unit District 204 Superintendent Gail McKinzie said she was not in a position to second-guess Pinnow's handling of the situation. "From my perspective, he was doing what he saw best," she said. Pinnow could not be reached for comment. Though tensions remain between Pinnow and Mendoza, the principal met with the boy to assure him the dispute between the adults would not be held against him. "Our interest is in the student," McKinzie said. "Mr. Pinnow handled the situation appropriately by following up with the student to make sure he was comfortable in school." Meetings with the boys' parents, however, have been less than successful. The two sides have spoken several times without reaching a consensus. Mendoza - who moved to Naperville nine months ago so his children could attend District 204 schools - says he will push for criminal charges because doesn't want Pinnow to treat another student in such a manner. He also intends to ask the school board to discuss the matter with him in a closed-door meeting. "I don't want this guy's head," Mendoza said. "My kids are young, and they will be in the district for a long time. I don't want to be known as that 'Crazy Mendoza dad.' I'm just trying to make sure this doesn't happen again." Regardless of the outcome, Pinnow's attempt to instill a love of poetry in the third-grader appears to have backfired. "If he did that to make poetry important to my son," Mendoza says, "it really wasn't a good motivator." From CobbCoStudioArts Mon May 7 18:25:54 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 15:25:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Wired Art from Wired Hearts/TOOT Message-ID: <20010507222554.C6F163ECC@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From wasanthony Mon May 7 20:03:55 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 17:03:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Wired Art from Wired Hearts/TOOT In-Reply-To: <20010507222554.C6F163ECC@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <20010508000355.36625.qmail@web12107.mail.yahoo.com> I tried sending this backchannel, but it bounced. Oh well: Bob: Thought it best not to use the list for messages like this - I should have responded to you backchannel in the first place. Anyway, this is the last week of classes and next week is finals week. After a couple of relatively paper-free weeks, I'm now inundated. I suspect other folks are suffering the same fate and that's why list traffic has thinned down significantly. Well, I'm off in a bit to teach my last poetry study class of the semester. Tonight I'm doing the 2nd half of my "editorial decisions" class. Last week I shared some poems I'd rejected (anonymous, of course) and this week I'll share some I've accepted, again anonymous, and with rationale of course. - Jim --- "Robert R.Cobb" wrote: > Jim, > > I forget that some people are still working for a living. When does > your school term end? > > Bob Cobb > > --- jcervantes > > wrote: > > > >--- "Robert R.Cobb" wrote: > >> Jim, > >> > >> I thank you for your polite review on the "ART." I assume that you > >> have not had any time to read, review, comment upon, the rest of > the > >> "issue." Either that, or you have read the rest of the issue and > >> decided it > >> worthy of ommission. > >> > > > >The former, Bob. It's last week of classes! > > > >- Jim > > > > > >===== > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net > >Salt River Review: > >"Ripples" @ > >Poetserv: > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > >http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > == > Poetry Catamaran > > "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known > mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" > > Robert R. Cobb > AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. > http://rrcobb.tripod.com > > _____________________________________________________________ > ----- > Check out my portfolio at www.talent.com > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From moira_russell Tue May 8 00:21:12 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 20:21:12 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] At Grass - Larkin Message-ID: That is indeed a very nice sweet melancholy Larkin. I didn't know he could be so gentle (ignorant me). Do you know of any other poems like this? Moira >From: "Marcus Bales" >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu, new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: [New-Poetry] At Grass - Larkin >Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 08:14:47 -0400 > >At Grass >Philip Larkin > > The eye can hardly pick them out > From the cold shade they shelter in, > Till wind distresses tail and mane; > Then one crops grass, and moves about > -- The other seeming to look on -- > And stands anonymous again. > > Yet fifteen years ago, perhaps > Two dozen distances sufficed > To fable them: faint afternoons > Of Cups and Stakes and Handicaps, > Whereby their names were artificed > To inlay faded, classic Junes -- > > Silks at the start: against the sky > Numbers and parasols: outside > Squadrons of empty cars, and heat, > And littered grass: then the long cry > Hanging unhushed till it subside > To stop-press columns on the street. > > Do memories plague their ears like flies? > They shake their heads. Dusk brims the shadows. > Summer by summer all stole away, > The starting-gates, the crowds and cries -- > All but the unmolesting meadows. > Almanacked, their names live; they > > Have slipped their names, and stand at ease, > Or gallop for what must be joy, > And not a fieldglass sees them home, > Or curious stop-watch prophesies: > Only the groom, and the groom's boy, > With bridles in the evening come. > >mbales at cybergate.net > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From mbales Tue May 8 08:06:38 2001 From: mbales (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 08:06:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sad Steps - Larkin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Moira: > That [At Grass] is indeed a very nice sweet melancholy Larkin. > ... Do you know of any other poems like this?<< SAD STEPS Phillip Larkin Groping back to bed after a piss I part the thick curtains, and am startled by The rapid clouds, the moon's cleanliness. Four o'clock: wedge-shaped gardens lie Under a cavernous, a wind-pierced sky. There's something laughable about this, The way the moon dashes through the clouds that blow Loosely as cannon-smoke to stand apart (Stone-coloured light sharpening the roofs below) High and preposterous and separate? Lozenge of love! Medallion of art! O wolves of memory! Immensements! No, One shivers slightly, looking up there. The hardness and the brightness and the plain far-reaching singleness of that wide stare Is a reminder of the strength and pain Of being young; that it can't come again, But is for others undiminished somewhere. mbales at cybergate.net From mbales Tue May 8 08:10:24 2001 From: mbales (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 08:10:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Church Going - Larkin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Moira: > That [At Grass] is indeed a very nice sweet melancholy Larkin. > ... Do you know of any other poems like this?<< Church Going Phillip Larkin Once I am sure there's nothing going on I step inside, letting the door thud shut. Another church: matting, seats, and stone, And little books; sprawlings of flowers, cut For Sunday, brownish now; some brass and stuff Up at the holy end; the small neat organ; And a tense, musty, unignorable silence, Brewed God knows how long. Hatless, I take off My cycle-clips in awkward reverence, Move forward, run my hand around the font. From JforJames Tue May 8 12:16:23 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 12:16:23 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] 100 Days Message-ID: <86.a516d32.282975d7@aol.com> >From Andrea Brady: > >Barque Press, a small publisher of experimental poetry run by me and Keston >Sutherland, has just gone out on a crippled monetary limb to publish: > > ONE HUNDRED DAYS > >An anthology responding to the first 100 baleful days of the Bush >administration. Poetry, prose, articles, cartoons, photographs, drawings, all manner of rants to cancel the raves: a catalogue of capable dissent and >critical eloquence, ordering change by line and number. > > 184 pages * 148 x 210 mm * ISBN 1-903488-31-1 > =A310 / $15 > >TO ORDER: please send a cheque for =A310 (=A35 for contributors) > made payable to BARQUE PRESS > to: Andrea Brady, Gonville & Caius College, Cambridge CB2 1TA > Contributors include: Adrian Clarke, Alan Gilbert, Alan Sondheim, Alex Stolis, Alice Notley, Alicia Askenase, Alison Fenton, Allison Cobb, Alvin Reiss, Andrea Brady, Andrew Duncan, Andrew Johnson, Ange Mlinko, Anne Waldman, Anselm Berrigan, Anselm Hollo, Athena Kildegaard , Ben Friedlander, Ben Watson, Bill Dunlap, Bill Luoma, Brian Henry, Catherine Daly, Chris Goode, Chris Stroffolino, Dan Bouchard, Daniel Arcana, Daniel Bouchard, David Hess, Deirdre Kovac, Drew Gardner, Drew Milne, Eileen Myles, Elizabeth Robinson, Elizabeth Willis, Elizabeth Rosenberg, Elizabeth Treadwell, Fay Gordon, Frank Matagrano, Gwen Stone, Harriet Zinnes, Harv Teitelbaum, Hassen, Heather Shaw, James Thraves Jeremy Green, John A. Jackson, John Kinsella, John Tranter, John Wilkinson, Jordan Davis, Jules Boykoff, Juliana Spahr, Kaia Sand, Keith Tuma, Keston Sutherland, Kristin Prevallet, Laura Wright, Lauren Oliver, Lawrence Upton, Lynn Bey, Margo Solod, Marcella Durand, Michael C. Colello, Michael Scharf, Mukoma Ngugi, Patrick Herron, Pete Culley, Pete Smith, Peter Riley, Philippe Beck, Phyllis Moore, Pierre Michel, Raegan Kelly, Richard j. O'Connor, Robert Edwards, Robert Lederman, Rod Smith, Rose Drew, Rosemary Zurlo-Cuva, Sam Brenton, Sean Bonney, Stephen Ratcliffe, Stephen Rodefer, Tanya Brolaski, the PIPA (Poetry Is Public Art) Collaborative, Tim Morris, Timothy Liu, Tom Raworth, and William Fuller. >Web record soon to be found at http://www.barquepress.com. > >Please forward this announcement... From Rsgwynn1 Tue May 8 13:35:55 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 13:35:55 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Festival Message-ID: <24.1329bfe1.2829887b@cs.com> An article on the Santa Barbara Poetry Festival: http://www.independent.com/arts/feature_0754.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jholmes Tue May 8 13:42:52 2001 From: jholmes (Janet Holmes) Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 11:42:52 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Larkin Message-ID: Moira, you might also appreciate reading the Larkin collections individually rather than jumping into the Collected Poems. HIGH WINDOWS, for example, is meticulously ordered with correspondences among the poems, whereas Thwaite in the Collected completely undid the ordering so as to provide a chronological accounting of what was written when. Janet Holmes From halvard Tue May 8 14:16:42 2001 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 14:16:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Larkin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Moira, you might also appreciate reading the Larkin collections individually rather than jumping into the Collected > Poems. HIGH WINDOWS, for example, is meticulously ordered with correspondences among the poems, whereas Thwaite in the > Collected completely undid the ordering so as to provide a chronological accounting of what was written when. > > Janet Holmes As though poems are writ chronologically--this one today, that one tomorrow. Hal "Poetry is harder to read than prose because you have to read all the white stuff too." Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From wasanthony Tue May 8 14:35:29 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 11:35:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Larkin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010508183529.2318.qmail@web12105.mail.yahoo.com> --- Halvard Johnson wrote: > > Moira, you might also appreciate reading the Larkin collections > individually rather than jumping into the Collected > > Poems. HIGH WINDOWS, for example, is meticulously ordered with > correspondences among the poems, whereas Thwaite in the > > Collected completely undid the ordering so as to provide a > chronological accounting of what was written when. > > > > Janet Holmes > > As though poems are writ chronologically--this one today, > that one tomorrow. > Right. You can write an ending today and a beginning tomorrow, and maybe never even get to the middle. I'm trying to get the hang of yesterday, then the day before that. Have to go. They're coming for me. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From Rsgwynn1 Tue May 8 14:37:18 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 14:37:18 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Larkin Message-ID: <9c.e2ad275.282996de@cs.com> In a message dated 5/8/01 12:48:57 PM Central Daylight Time, jholmes at boisestate.edu writes: > HIGH WINDOWS, for example, is meticulously ordered with correspondences > among the poems, whereas Thwaite in the Collected completely undid the > ordering so as to provide a chronological accounting of what was written > when. > > This did quite a disservice to Larkin, by the way. Didn't Thwaite know that a librarian would want his poems presented in such and such an order? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Tue May 8 16:45:03 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 16:45:03 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] The Trouble With Poets Message-ID: <44.da67f03.2829b4cf@aol.com> Folk artist Peter Mulvey's album... http://www.signature-sounds.com/artistpage/artistpage.php3?artist=petermulvey THE TROUBLE WITH POETS was produced by Peter's long-time multi-talented sideman David "Goody" Goodrich and features a stellar cast of musicians including Mike Piehl on drums and Lou Ulrich on bass (both of Groovasaurus), as well as backing vocals by Jennifer Kimball (of The Story) and legendary guitarist/singer/songwriter Chris Smither. Melting together the best aspects of his three previous albums (the acoustic funk of Rapture, the dark, brooding richness of Deep Blue, and the tight, melodic edginess of Glencree), POETS is an unbelievably diverse, yet cohesive, album. It swings effortlessly from the catchy, funky, radio-friendly title track, to the mollifying, partially spoken-word ballad "Tender Blindspot"; from the dark, mysterious "Bright Idea" (or, as Peter calls it, his "Paranoid X-Files Song") to the fun, mandolin-accompanied "You Meet the Nicest People in Your Dreams" (an old Fats Waller tune that Peter slid in as the "Intermission" on the album). The Trouble with Poets is an exhilarating roller coaster ride, with crests and dips, twists and turns, and a seemingly endless supply of delightful surprises. With this album, there is simply no doubt about it - Peter Mulvey is on the brink of becoming a not-so-well-kept secret. THE TROUBLE WITH POETS is an album guaranteed to turn heads, drop jaws, and bring Peter's music to an exponentially wider audience. From moira_russell Tue May 8 00:19:41 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 20:19:41 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Larkin's daffodils Message-ID: Dear Jaimes, All right, I'll admit it, I'm intrigued. Perhaps there is more to Larkin than meets my eye (there's more to _everyone_ than meets the eye, once said a friend of mine in a kind of good-humored exasperation). Thank you for your long description, and I sympathize with your difficulty to reference because most of my books are locked up in boxes, too -- in a garage, no less. I liked very much your description of how the drab meagre furnished rooms were once a part of all British consciousness and Larkin made them even moreso. (Did you spend time in Britain? I wonder about Britain and deprivation. Brian Aldiss remarked once on the "uniquely British" quality of "1984" and how the shortages, the worry, the posters even, were recognizable near-instantly to those who had lived in Britain during the War. It also reminded me of some of A. Alvarez's writing about post-war London.) So I shall give him another go. Your mention of his library cataloguing interests me (having worked in libraries myself) -- makes me think, yes, perhaps there _is_ something I hadn't seen, something I would welcome. Which is always good to see. I might not get to it very soon, though, as I am chewing not only through the massive Merrill volume but also the new edition of "Anatomy of Melancholy" ($20! Amazon.com! Order it now!) and I just snatched up not only "On Lies, Secrets and Silence" but also "The Catbird's Song" pretty near each other in my local Value Village, both for two dollars apiece. Who would donate an unmarked volume of a poet's nonfiction to Value Village? Any ideas? And thank you for taking out the time to write a detailed appreciation of a poet you value whom you felt was getting short shrift. No doubt the list could do with more well-considered "take another look" appeals rather than the endless sniping which is far too easy to do and hurtful in the long run. Yours Moira _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From moira_russell Tue May 8 23:13:47 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 19:13:47 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Scotch Tape Message-ID: An Englishman is being shown around a Scottish hospital. At the end of his visit, he is shown into a ward with a number of patients who show no obvious signs of injury.?He goes to examine the first man he sees, and the man proclaims: "Fair fa' yer sonsie face, Great chieftain e' the puddin' race! Aboon them a' ye tak your place, painch tripe or thairm: Weel are ye wordy o' a grace as lang's my arm." The Englishman, somewhat taken aback, goes to the next patient, who immediately launches into: "Some hae meat, and canna eat, and some wad eat that want it, But we hae meat and we can eat, and sae the Lord be thankit." And suddenly the next patient sits up and declaims. "Wee sleekit cow'rin tim'rous beastie, O what a panic's in thy breastie! Thou need na start awa sae hasty, wi' bickering brattle I wad be laith to run and chase thee, wi' murdering prattle!" "Well," said the Englishman to his Scottish colleague, "I see you saved the psychiatric ward for the last." "Nay, nay," the Scottish doctor corrected him, "This is the Serious Burns Unit." _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From mbales Wed May 9 08:01:07 2001 From: mbales (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 08:01:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Scotch Tape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Moira: > "Nay, nay," the Scottish doctor corrected him, "This is the > Serious Burns Unit." A woman has identical twins, and gives them up for adoption. One of them goes to a family in Egypt and is named "Amal." The other goes to a family in Spain; they name him "Juan." Years later, Juan sends a picture of himself to his mom. Upon receiving the picture, she tells her husband that she wishes she also had a picture of Amal. Her husband responds, "But they are twins - if you've seen Juan, you've seen Amal." mbales at cybergate.net From JforJames Wed May 9 09:10:31 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 09:10:31 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] 3rBed Message-ID: 3rdBed #4 is now out featuring: Marc Kipniss Jason Nelson Alan DeNiro M. S. Fodhi-Da-Zen Tex Kerschen John Branseum Michael Burkard Stacey Levine Daniel Coshnear Jessica Treat Jeffrey Encke Maile Chapman Alia Hanna Habib Willard Bohn Brooks Haxton About 3rdBed: 3rd bed is a journal publishing innovative work by known, unknown, and forgotten writers; writers who move beyond the front lawn of domestic realism. We are looking for fiction, for poetry, and for work that blurs the distinction between these genres; we are looking for translations of authors living and dead; we are looking for a range of pieces that evoke anything from disquiet to whimsy, from the jarring to the soothing: work that may be variously urgent, kaleidoscopic, infantile, or elliptical. -- Andrea Baker associate poetry editor http://www.3rdBed.com From wasanthony Wed May 9 12:16:20 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 09:16:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Sven Birkerts?? Message-ID: <20010509161620.76154.qmail@web12106.mail.yahoo.com> Have had no luck via the web in finding the current whereabouts and e-mail address of Sven Birkerts. Perhaps someone on this list knows the answers? I'd like to invite him to a lit conference. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From moira_russell Wed May 9 12:28:35 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 08:28:35 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sven Birkerts?? Message-ID: Doesn't he teach at Bennington? >From: jcervantes >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >To: NewPoetry >Subject: [New-Poetry] Sven Birkerts?? >Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 09:16:20 -0700 (PDT) > >Have had no luck via the web in finding the current whereabouts and >e-mail address of Sven Birkerts. Perhaps someone on this list knows >the answers? I'd like to invite him to a lit conference. > >- Jim > >===== >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net >Salt River Review: >"Ripples" @ >Poetserv: >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices >http://auctions.yahoo.com/ >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From eselinge Wed May 9 12:32:26 2001 From: eselinge (Eric Selinger) Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 11:32:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Multi-cultural American Poetry" Class Message-ID: A net thrown for suggestions! Here at DePaul all sophomores have to take a seminar on "Multiculturalism in the United States," but various courses fit the bill. In my endless quest to teach more poetry, I've proposed a "Multicultural American Poetry" course, and it's been cleared, at least so far. So: for the summer I have 5 weeks, 20-30 students of various majors (many, even most, not English majors), and the requirement that I treat works or authors from at least 3 recognized (or recognizable) "multicultural" groups--but in practice that includes religious difference, sexual identity, geography, and class, as well as the usual racial / ethnic categories. Other than that I have absolutely free rein on readings and assignments. Next time I teach it I'll have 10 weeks, and the same freedom. What do y'all suggest? I'd love ideas for poets, poems, anthologies--the works! Let's leave aside questions of whether such a course should be offered at all--remember, it's mostly an excuse for me to teach what I love (poetry) and for students to take this required course in a way that won't badger them about politics (unless I want it to). --EMS From JforJames Wed May 9 13:43:52 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 13:43:52 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Sven Birkerts?? Message-ID: <8b.65d8c2d.282adbd8@aol.com> Seems I've seen his name associated with the MFA in Creative Writing at Emerson College in Boston MA; and on the masthead of the Boston Review. From wasanthony Wed May 9 14:04:10 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Sven Birkerts?? In-Reply-To: <8b.65d8c2d.282adbd8@aol.com> Message-ID: <20010509180410.11881.qmail@web12104.mail.yahoo.com> --- JforJames at aol.com wrote: > Seems I've seen his name associated with the MFA > in Creative Writing at Emerson College in Boston MA; > and on the masthead of the Boston Review. > Heard from a friend who's in the Bennington program that he's there and she's getting me phone numbers; also heard from another friend who has his secret address. Ah, I love the internet. Hope that's true that he's on The Boston Review masthead and I hope he reads it cause I'm in the current or forthcoming issue - not sure because I haven't gotten my contributor's copy yet, but the publication is/was imminent. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From Rsgwynn1 Wed May 9 14:14:22 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 14:14:22 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Missing Person Message-ID: <25.150922e2.282ae2fe@cs.com> Does anyone know the current address/affiliation of Simon Ortiz? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin Wed May 9 14:23:10 2001 From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:23:10 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Multi-cultural American Poetry" Class References: Message-ID: <00f301c0d8b5$1cb9e940$3facefd8@0021936706> Hi Eric, As suspicious as I am of the rubric "Multicultural Poetry," I'll toss a couple suggestions your way: Jimmy Santiago Baca (chicano poet) His work is extremely uneven, but full of energy with great passages of beauty. If anything, at least in his early poems, he seems too quickly sentimental, and not a very good editor of his own work. That said, he was one of the first poets I actually read for pleasure as a teenager. He "spoke to me," you could say. Many of the poems in his first book "Immigrants in Our Own Land" are "prison poems" which I suppose covers another minority. There's always Frank O'Hara, who manages to be openly gay in many of his poems, although I realize that that's probably not a criterion for selection. Tony > A net thrown for suggestions! > > Here at DePaul all sophomores have to take a seminar on "Multiculturalism in the United States," but various courses fit the bill. In my endless quest to teach more poetry, I've proposed a "Multicultural American Poetry" course, and it's been cleared, at least so far. > > So: for the summer I have 5 weeks, 20-30 students of various majors (many, even most, not English majors), and the requirement that I treat works or authors from at least 3 recognized (or recognizable) "multicultural" groups--but in practice that includes religious difference, sexual identity, geography, and class, as well as the usual racial / ethnic categories. Other than that I have absolutely free rein on readings and assignments. Next time I teach it I'll have 10 weeks, and the same freedom. > > What do y'all suggest? I'd love ideas for poets, poems, anthologies--the works! Let's leave aside questions of whether such a course should be offered at all--remember, it's mostly an excuse for me to teach what I love (poetry) and for students to take this required course in a way that won't badger them about politics (unless I want it to). > > --EMS > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From MerwinDame Wed May 9 14:47:35 2001 From: MerwinDame (MerwinDame at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 14:47:35 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Scotch Tape Message-ID: In a message dated 5/9/01 4:50:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mbales at cybergate.net writes: << A woman has identical twins, and gives them up for adoption. One of them goes to a family in Egypt and is named "Amal." The other goes to a family in Spain; they name him "Juan." Years later, Juan sends a picture of himself to his mom. Upon receiving the picture, she tells her husband that she wishes she also had a picture of Amal. Her husband responds, "But they are twins - if you've seen Juan, you've seen Amal." mbales at cybergate.net >> hurrah, herr bales -- i absolutely LOVED this one! :) *muffy* for your further belly-chuckling consideration: I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So, I ran over and said, "Stop! Don't do it!" "Why shouldn't I?" he said. I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!" He said, "Like what?" I said, "Well...are you Religious or Atheist?" He said, "Religious." I said, "Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?" He said, "Christian." I said, "Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?" He said, "Baptist!" I said, "Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist Church of God, or Baptist Church of the Lord?" He said, "Baptist Church of God!" I said, "Me too! Are you Original Baptist Church of God, or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God!" I said, "Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915!" I said, "Die, Heretic Scum...", and pushed him off. -- Emo Phillips From paul.lake Wed May 9 04:42:31 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 03:42:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why poetry (and literature) matters Message-ID: There's an interesting article by Mario Vargas Llosa in The New Republic Online at the following: http://www.thenewrepublic.com/051401/llosa051401.html In it Llosa makes a strong case for the humanizing power of literature. Paul Lake From wasanthony Wed May 9 17:16:38 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 14:16:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Missing Person In-Reply-To: <25.150922e2.282ae2fe@cs.com> Message-ID: <20010509211638.11378.qmail@web12107.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > Does anyone know the current address/affiliation of Simon Ortiz? > He's currently at the Telluride Institute. Sorry I can't offer more than that. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From MillB Wed May 9 17:35:11 2001 From: MillB (MillB at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 17:35:11 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Check out Native American Authors: Simon J. Ortiz Message-ID: <31.14718a55.282b120f@aol.com> Greetings: There's a reference page about Simon Ortiz on the web--if you click the link below, it will take you there. Mill Click here: Native American Authors: Simon J. Ortiz From aprentiss Wed May 9 17:55:48 2001 From: aprentiss (Amber Prentiss) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 17:55:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why poetry (and literature) matters Message-ID: He seems to be preaching to the choir, not the congregation, so I don't understand why he wrote this article exhorting people to read when his audience seems to be people who are well-read. Referencing Cervantes and Madame Bovary would not convince someone who hasn't read either for whatever reason that he ought to read. Telling people that they should read because of Borges presumes that they've read Borges, and if they've already Borges, why is the author telling them to read? I'm 19 and eleven-twelfths years old. I haven't read all these books, but I do read, and I feel slighted. I should read so I can express myself better? I should read Great Literature so I can be able to have conversations over martinis saying "Borgesian?" It sounds like reading for vocabulary, that nasty practice of secondary schooling. Learning about myself and the human condition through reading doesn't necessarily make myself a nicer, better, and well-spoken person, either. Also, this passage seems particularly narrow: When one imagines such a world, one is tempted to picture primitives in loincloths, the small magic-religious communities that live at the margins of modernity in Latin America, Oceania, and Africa. But I have a different failure in mind. Failure? Is there suddenly no oral literature anymore? I find it hard to believe that any people would be without stories and certainly that they would be without the spoken or sung traditions of poetry. Some of the oldest pieces in the canon were once told and then written down. I just don't know about this piece. It seems a bit self-congratulatory. -Amber, now free from exams. -----Original Message----- From: Paul Lake To: New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 5/9/01 4:42 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Why poetry (and literature) matters There's an interesting article by Mario Vargas Llosa in The New Republic Online at the following: http://www.thenewrepublic.com/051401/llosa051401.html In it Llosa makes a strong case for the humanizing power of literature. Paul Lake _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards Wed May 9 21:13:50 2001 From: tadrichards (OTIS RICHARDS) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 21:13:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Multi-cultural American Poetry" Class References: <00f301c0d8b5$1cb9e940$3facefd8@0021936706> Message-ID: <020001c0d8ee$7962ad60$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> The infamous Adrienne Rich BAP, which is nowhere near as bad as it's been made out to be. In fact, it's pretty good. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Robinson" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "Multi-cultural American Poetry" Class > Hi Eric, > > As suspicious as I am of the rubric "Multicultural Poetry," I'll toss a > couple suggestions your way: > > Jimmy Santiago Baca (chicano poet) > > His work is extremely uneven, but full of energy with great passages of > beauty. If anything, at least in his early poems, he seems too quickly > sentimental, and not a very good editor of his own work. That said, he was > one of the first poets I actually read for pleasure as a teenager. He "spoke > to me," you could say. Many of the poems in his first book "Immigrants in > Our Own Land" are "prison poems" which I suppose covers another minority. > > There's always Frank O'Hara, who manages to be openly gay in many of his > poems, although I realize that that's probably not a criterion for > selection. > > Tony > > > > > > > A net thrown for suggestions! > > > > Here at DePaul all sophomores have to take a seminar on "Multiculturalism > in the United States," but various courses fit the bill. In my endless > quest to teach more poetry, I've proposed a "Multicultural American Poetry" > course, and it's been cleared, at least so far. > > > > So: for the summer I have 5 weeks, 20-30 students of various majors > (many, even most, not English majors), and the requirement that I treat > works or authors from at least 3 recognized (or recognizable) > "multicultural" groups--but in practice that includes religious difference, > sexual identity, geography, and class, as well as the usual racial / ethnic > categories. Other than that I have absolutely free rein on readings and > assignments. Next time I teach it I'll have 10 weeks, and the same freedom. > > > > What do y'all suggest? I'd love ideas for poets, poems, anthologies--the > works! Let's leave aside questions of whether such a course should be > offered at all--remember, it's mostly an excuse for me to teach what I love > (poetry) and for students to take this required course in a way that won't > badger them about politics (unless I want it to). > > > > --EMS > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards Wed May 9 21:16:10 2001 From: tadrichards (OTIS RICHARDS) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 21:16:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why poetry (and literature) matters References: Message-ID: <022401c0d8ee$cceeec00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Amber....you have a birthday coming up? Details, details. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amber Prentiss" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 5:55 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Why poetry (and literature) matters > He seems to be preaching to the choir, not the congregation, so I don't > understand why he wrote this article exhorting people to read when his > audience seems to be people who are well-read. Referencing Cervantes and > Madame Bovary would not convince someone who hasn't read either for whatever > reason that he ought to read. Telling people that they should read because > of Borges presumes that they've read Borges, and if they've already Borges, > why is the author telling them to read? > > I'm 19 and eleven-twelfths years old. I haven't read all these books, but I > do read, and I feel slighted. I should read so I can express myself better? > I should read Great Literature so I can be able to have conversations over > martinis saying "Borgesian?" It sounds like reading for vocabulary, that > nasty practice of secondary schooling. Learning about myself and the human > condition through reading doesn't necessarily make myself a nicer, better, > and well-spoken person, either. > > Also, this passage seems particularly narrow: > > When one imagines such a world, one is tempted to picture primitives in > loincloths, the small magic-religious communities that live at the margins > of modernity in Latin America, Oceania, and Africa. But I have a different > failure in mind. > > > Failure? Is there suddenly no oral literature anymore? I find it hard to > believe that any people would be without stories and certainly that they > would be without the spoken or sung traditions of poetry. Some of the oldest > pieces in the canon were once told and then written down. > > I just don't know about this piece. It seems a bit self-congratulatory. > > -Amber, now free from exams. > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Lake > To: New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: 5/9/01 4:42 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Why poetry (and literature) matters > > There's an interesting article by Mario Vargas Llosa in The New Republic > Online at the following: > > http://www.thenewrepublic.com/051401/llosa051401.html > > > In it Llosa makes a strong case for the humanizing power of literature. > > Paul Lake > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JoFuhrman Wed May 9 21:26:18 2001 From: JoFuhrman (Joanna Fuhrman) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 18:26:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] "Multi-cultural American Poetry" Class Message-ID: <2487827.989457978314.JavaMail.imail@prickles> Hi Eric, Do you know the Before Columbus Foundation Poetry Anthology (on Norton)-- it had some interesting work in it including poems by Amiri Baraka, Mei-mei Berssenbrugge, Jayne Cortez, Allen Ginsberg, Maurice Kenny etc. Joanna _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ From tadrichards Wed May 9 21:30:06 2001 From: tadrichards (OTIS RICHARDS) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 21:30:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Multi-cultural American Poetry" Class References: <2487827.989457978314.JavaMail.imail@prickles> Message-ID: <023801c0d8f0$bf78f5a0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> And there's Frank Chin's magazine.... Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joanna Fuhrman" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 9:26 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] "Multi-cultural American Poetry" Class > Hi Eric, > > Do you know the Before Columbus Foundation Poetry Anthology (on Norton)-- it > had some interesting work in it including poems by Amiri Baraka, Mei-mei > Berssenbrugge, Jayne Cortez, Allen Ginsberg, Maurice Kenny etc. > > Joanna > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > Send a cool gift with your E-Card > http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From eselinge Wed May 9 21:55:02 2001 From: eselinge (Eric Selinger) Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 20:55:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Multi-Culti Suggestions Message-ID: Thanks for the suggestions--keep them coming, please! O'Hara is a fine idea, and yes, being gay certainly counts in this context (I did Angels in America when I did this as a multi-genre course, getting a Jew in too; it was the single biggest hit of the quarter.) I'll take a look at Baca and the Rich BAP, which I have on my shelves & haven't read in years. I recall liking a lot of it, although thinking that the Sherman Alexie poem at the start was duller than most of his work. As for the rubric itself--I too dislike it. But hey, it's a way for me to slip another poetry course into the curriculum! Other suggestions, from other lists: Harryette Mullen's Muse & Drudge Julia Alvarez, "33" (in Homecomings) Alicia Ostriker, _Nakedness of the Fathers_ Simon Ortiz, From Sand Creek Alexie, Summer of the Black Widows Lucille Clifton, Collected Poems The Oxford Modern American Poetry anthology Any thoughts on any of these? EMS From Rsgwynn1 Wed May 9 22:17:15 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 22:17:15 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Multi-Culti Suggestions Message-ID: <39.1470c87a.282b542b@cs.com> In a message dated 5/9/2001 8:56:11 PM Central Daylight Time, eselinge at wppost.depaul.edu writes: > Harryette Mullen's Muse & Drudge > Julia Alvarez, "33" (in Homecomings) > Alicia Ostriker, _Nakedness of the Fathers_ > Simon Ortiz, From Sand Creek > Alexie, Summer of the Black Widows > Lucille Clifton, Collected Poems > The Oxford Modern American Poetry anthology > > Any thoughts on any of these? > > EMS > The Home Place, by Marilyn Nelson (Waniek then) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Wed May 9 22:18:20 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 22:18:20 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Multi-Culti Suggestions Message-ID: <30.147c6a7b.282b546c@cs.com> In a message dated 5/9/2001 8:56:11 PM Central Daylight Time, eselinge at wppost.depaul.edu writes: > Alicia Ostriker, _Nakedness of the Fathers_ > I'd be interested in learning what aspect of the multicultural experience Alicia Ostriker, fine poet that she sometimes is, represents. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aprentiss Wed May 9 22:23:37 2001 From: aprentiss (Amber Prentiss) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 22:23:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Multi-Culti Suggestions Message-ID: 10-15 bucks: The Vintage Book of African American Poetry. I'm no scholar, but I like it. Wheatley to Komunyakaa and beyond, conveniently sized. "Emily Dickinson's Defunct" and "I am a cowboy in the boat of Ra" in one convenient volume! All right. I'll quit selling. -Amber -----Original Message----- From: Eric Selinger To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 5/9/2001 9:55 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Multi-Culti Suggestions Thanks for the suggestions--keep them coming, please! O'Hara is a fine idea, and yes, being gay certainly counts in this context (I did Angels in America when I did this as a multi-genre course, getting a Jew in too; it was the single biggest hit of the quarter.) I'll take a look at Baca and the Rich BAP, which I have on my shelves & haven't read in years. I recall liking a lot of it, although thinking that the Sherman Alexie poem at the start was duller than most of his work. As for the rubric itself--I too dislike it. But hey, it's a way for me to slip another poetry course into the curriculum! Other suggestions, from other lists: Harryette Mullen's Muse & Drudge Julia Alvarez, "33" (in Homecomings) Alicia Ostriker, _Nakedness of the Fathers_ Simon Ortiz, From Sand Creek Alexie, Summer of the Black Widows Lucille Clifton, Collected Poems The Oxford Modern American Poetry anthology Any thoughts on any of these? EMS _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From aprentiss Wed May 9 22:26:18 2001 From: aprentiss (Amber Prentiss) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 22:26:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why poetry (and literature) matters Message-ID: June 7th! I get to drop the -teen. I should say we - my twin and I were (naturally) born on the same date. She's going to be in Panama doing that oral history thing. Boo hoo. -Amber -----Original Message----- From: OTIS RICHARDS To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 5/9/2001 9:16 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why poetry (and literature) matters Amber....you have a birthday coming up? Details, details. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amber Prentiss" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 5:55 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Why poetry (and literature) matters > He seems to be preaching to the choir, not the congregation, so I don't > understand why he wrote this article exhorting people to read when his > audience seems to be people who are well-read. Referencing Cervantes and > Madame Bovary would not convince someone who hasn't read either for whatever > reason that he ought to read. Telling people that they should read because > of Borges presumes that they've read Borges, and if they've already Borges, > why is the author telling them to read? > > I'm 19 and eleven-twelfths years old. I haven't read all these books, but I > do read, and I feel slighted. I should read so I can express myself better? > I should read Great Literature so I can be able to have conversations over > martinis saying "Borgesian?" It sounds like reading for vocabulary, that > nasty practice of secondary schooling. Learning about myself and the human > condition through reading doesn't necessarily make myself a nicer, better, > and well-spoken person, either. > > Also, this passage seems particularly narrow: > > When one imagines such a world, one is tempted to picture primitives in > loincloths, the small magic-religious communities that live at the margins > of modernity in Latin America, Oceania, and Africa. But I have a different > failure in mind. > > > Failure? Is there suddenly no oral literature anymore? I find it hard to > believe that any people would be without stories and certainly that they > would be without the spoken or sung traditions of poetry. Some of the oldest > pieces in the canon were once told and then written down. > > I just don't know about this piece. It seems a bit self-congratulatory. > > -Amber, now free from exams. > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Lake > To: New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: 5/9/01 4:42 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Why poetry (and literature) matters > > There's an interesting article by Mario Vargas Llosa in The New Republic > Online at the following: > > http://www.thenewrepublic.com/051401/llosa051401.html > > > In it Llosa makes a strong case for the humanizing power of literature. > > Paul Lake > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Thom424 Wed May 9 22:31:55 2001 From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 22:31:55 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Multi-Culti Suggestions Message-ID: <23.b735424.282b579b@aol.com> Unsettling America : An Anthology of Contemporary Multicultural Poetry by Maria M. Gillan (Editor), Jennifer Gillan (Editor), Marua Mazziotti Gillan List Price: $15.95 Paperback - 406 pages (November 1994) Penguin USA (Paper); ISBN: 014023778X ; Dimensions (in inches): 1.17 x 8.96 x 5.97 Editorial Reviews From tadrichards Wed May 9 22:37:46 2001 From: tadrichards (OTIS RICHARDS) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 22:37:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Multi-Culti Suggestions References: Message-ID: <001501c0d8fe$acb96d60$6401a8c0@ibm25310> Check out http://www.staff.livjm.ac.uk/leagchan/bibliogs/authors.htm Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amber Prentiss" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 10:23 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Re: Multi-Culti Suggestions > > 10-15 bucks: The Vintage Book of African American Poetry. I'm no scholar, > but I like it. Wheatley to Komunyakaa and beyond, conveniently sized. "Emily > Dickinson's Defunct" and "I am a cowboy in the boat of Ra" in one convenient > volume! All right. I'll quit selling. > > -Amber > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Eric Selinger > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: 5/9/2001 9:55 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Multi-Culti Suggestions > > Thanks for the suggestions--keep them coming, please! O'Hara is a fine > idea, and yes, being gay certainly counts in this context (I did Angels > in America when I did this as a multi-genre course, getting a Jew in > too; it was the single biggest hit of the quarter.) I'll take a look at > Baca and the Rich BAP, which I have on my shelves & haven't read in > years. I recall liking a lot of it, although thinking that the Sherman > Alexie poem at the start was duller than most of his work. > > As for the rubric itself--I too dislike it. But hey, it's a way for me > to slip another poetry course into the curriculum! > > Other suggestions, from other lists: > > Harryette Mullen's Muse & Drudge > Julia Alvarez, "33" (in Homecomings) > Alicia Ostriker, _Nakedness of the Fathers_ > Simon Ortiz, From Sand Creek > Alexie, Summer of the Black Widows > Lucille Clifton, Collected Poems > The Oxford Modern American Poetry anthology > > Any thoughts on any of these? > > EMS > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames Thu May 10 09:57:19 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 09:57:19 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Multi-Culti Suggestions Message-ID: <10.ca442f3.282bf83f@aol.com> A few other names/books of note... Martin Espada: City of Coughing & Dead Radiators; Imagine the Angel's of Bread; Zapata's Disciple (essays) Li-Young Lee: Rose Marilyn Chin: Phoenix Gone, the Terrace Empty Carl Phillips: Cortege Wanda Coleman: Bathwater Wine Joy Harjo: She Had Some Horses; In Mad Love & War Cyrus Cassells: Soul Make A Path Through Shouting From JforJames Thu May 10 10:48:53 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 10:48:53 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Poetry Matter (on the other side of the Atlantic)? Message-ID: The Poetry Question (As printed in the Spring 2001 issue of Poetry News) In 1964, Adrian Mitchell said that "most people ignore most poetry because most poetry ignores most people". Was he right then? Is it still true now? Roddy Lumsden asked citizens of the poetry world if Mitchell's much quoted line heralded a retreat from elitism, or whether he simply chose to ignore a different 95% of us. "If Mitchell were right, and had done something about it in his own work, his poems would be read by most people, wouldn't they? And they're not. Most poetry is relevant to everyone, but most people think they don't know how to unlock it, or don't think it's worth the bother. In any activity, you need to put in some effort to reap the reward. It's not a matter of making more accessible poems; it's to do with giving people the keys to access what's already there, and showing them it is worth the bother." Peter Howard ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- "Perhaps Ade was anticipating his namesake's memorable jingle (well, I remember it), "Mitchell's Self-Drive, where people come first". Advertising touches more people than poetry, yet surely such saturation coverage is not what poetry is seeking. I'm reminded of an essay by Ian Walker (for "Postcard" read "Poem"): '... for where the often breathtaking cleverness of adverts is always undermined by their exploitative ethics, (...) one can feel much more positive about postcards. They are touchingly innocent, and indeed plucky in their attempt to match up to the overwhelming variety and richness of the world. (...) Compared to the most subdued of advertising campaigns, their impact is modest. And, perhaps for that reason, they are more subtly persuasive than an advert could ever be'." Ken Cockburn ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- "When are we going to stop worrying about how marginal poetry is? It might be true that the majority of people have little interest in, or don't know how to read, poetry but it is not for any poem to make concessions to that lack of curiosity or application. Poetry's more important job is to work at being a standard-bearer of language and thought; the best poems should offer us a glimpse at wisdom and wonder. Most people today don't care for that. I suspect it has rarely been different." Greta Stoddart ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- Mitchell's remark reduces poetry to its subject matter. Most poetry limits its scope in one way or another (Dr Johnson laughed at the poet of commerce who wanted his muse to sing of rats), but that isn't why people ignore it. They do so because reading it is a skill they don't have the time or inclination to learn. For myself, it may have been poetry's marginality that first attracted me, appealing to my sense of being an outsider. At all events, those that do drift in stay not because of some contrived populism, but because they've experienced its power." Matthew Francis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- "The ability to speak to the masses is a skill most poets lack. One wonders why popular poets are dismissed by the poetry world's critical organs. I believe there is an elitist class within the poetry world, terrified by a populism which reflects their own linguistic constipation and ever-dwindling bank balances. Thankfully, Adrian Mitchell's maxim is rapidly becoming redundant." Steve Tasane ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- "Mitchell remixed: most people fear most poetry because they know nothing about it. Well, they know it's for extreme states - love, grief - but those are scary places. Some poetry is afraid of people, hiding behind Culture as if reading the 'Book of Job' makes you a better person than supporting Middlesbrough. Poetry the celebration of quotidian miracles doesn't get reported. People think poetry will be more ethereal than they can stand. Poets see it the other way round: for them, the practical, technical aspects of poetry are what make it sublime. But then they (some of them) actually read it." W N Herbert ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- "We need to start thinking in terms of 'poetries' and include the full range of contemporary practice. Most importantly, we need to understand what it is that people want and need from the poetries they read and enjoy. It seems to me that this is just different from what professional poets want. Research needs to be funded into what might be called the social functions of poetry, into understanding how poetry is a way of behaving in language that is also a particular way of behaving in the world. That's the only way to understand the relationship between poetries and people." David Kennedy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- "Mitchell's comment underlines the importance of poetry's readers. How many poets would keep writing if there was no audience? Various things have changed since 1964 and I imagine that today, fewer members of the public are ignoring poetry because the poetry world, from the Poetry Society down to individual poets, is working harder to broaden the audience for poetry. It is losing some of its "elitist" mystique. Thanks to the internet, poetry in performance, poets in schools, workshops, competitions, 'Poetry Places' schemes, festivals and poetry mixed-media events, poetry is slowly gaining greater visibility and indeed, popularity, a fact often not realised by festival organisers, literary editors and assorted publishers. Are people buying books? Not nearly enough, but that's another story." Katherine Gallagher ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- "I wrote this slogan to distract the attention of reviewers from the vulnerably naked poems in my first book. The trick worked. Way back then in 1964 most published poets in Britain were straight white middle-class male adults from Oxbridge. Since then, partly because of the rise of the oral poetry movement, there has been a welcome flood of books and performances by gay, non-white, working-class, women and child poets, many of whom haven't been to university. That's progress. But poetry, one of the great arts, is still largely ignored by the Arts Council, the press, TV and - its natural home - radio. Venceremos!" Adrian Mitchell From acgold01 Thu May 10 11:17:45 2001 From: acgold01 (Alan C. Golding) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 11:17:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Thoughts on Mullen for Eric Message-ID: Hi, Eric-- Re Mullen's Muse & Drudge: I've taught it at the undergrad and grad level (and in a rush over the summer), and in my experience students (including the non-majors) love it. As with all sorts of texts, one has to take a little time to acclimatize the group to the book's verbal worlds and the sort of reading it asks for, but then they really get into it. I usually combine it with brief selections from her first book, Tree Tall Woman, and from Trimmings, for context, and use her "Poetry and Identity" essay; and she has some very instructive and accessible interviews that also help. On the Gillan anthology Unsettling America: it seems to me mostly predictable and uninteresting both formally and thematically--indistinguishable from the last 100 pages of any anthology of American lit that you'd care to name (the Heath, the Norton, the x, the y). I've also had good luck teaching Cha's Dictee, one of my favorite books, though a few more people remain baffled by that than they do by the Mullen. Alan From jdavis Thu May 10 12:40:27 2001 From: jdavis (Jordan Davis) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 12:40:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Addendum on Mullen / Cha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Juliana Spahr's new book _Everybody's Autonomy_ has chapters on Mullen and Cha, with specific reference to classroom use. Jordan Davis From dzauhar Thu May 10 13:48:04 2001 From: dzauhar (David Zauhar) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 12:48:04 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Thoughts on Mullen for Eric In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I also taught Mullen to undergrads, though in a "Gender/Sexuality/literature course. Students had no trouble getting into it, though I suspect having read Stein's _Tender Buttons_ about a month before made it a lot more accessible to them than it otherwise would've been. Dictee, though I've never taught it, would also be great, especially if you want to complicate students' senses of how these cultural identities are formed in and through writing. David Zauhar University of Illinois at Chicago "i have a city to cover with lines" --d.a. levy On Thu, 10 May 2001, Alan C. Golding wrote: > Hi, Eric-- > > Re Mullen's Muse & Drudge: I've taught it at the undergrad and grad level (and in a rush over the summer), and in my experience students (including the non-majors) love it. As with all sorts of texts, one has to take a little time to acclimatize the group to the book's verbal worlds and the sort of reading it asks for, but then they really get into it. I usually combine it with brief selections from her first book, Tree Tall Woman, and from Trimmings, for context, and use her "Poetry and Identity" essay; and she has some very instructive and accessible interviews that also help. > > On the Gillan anthology Unsettling America: it seems to me mostly predictable and uninteresting both formally and thematically--indistinguishable from the last 100 pages of any anthology of American lit that you'd care to name (the Heath, the Norton, the x, the y). > > I've also had good luck teaching Cha's Dictee, one of my favorite books, though a few more people remain baffled by that than they do by the Mullen. > > Alan > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From mmagee Thu May 10 14:10:41 2001 From: mmagee (Michael Magee) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 14:10:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Thoughts on Mullen for Eric In-Reply-To: from "David Zauhar" at May 10, 2001 12:48:04 pm Message-ID: <200105101810.OAA08734@dept.english.upenn.edu> Not to just pile on praise for Mullen but, yes, count me along with the others as someone who has taught Mullen to undergrads w/ a lot of success. This is, incidentally, something which can be predicted to some degree by anyone who has attended a Mullen reading - heterodox audiences, by poetry standards, responding to a remarkably wide register within the poems. IN the classroom, students almost invariably find something to hang their hat on (bit of recognized vernacular speech, a line from a song, or something as nebulous as a tone which to them seems inviting) while never coming close to exhausting the work, which is what makes it so fun to teach. I mean, where else (okay I can think of a handful of places) can you talk about Stein, Kristeva and Lakeside's "All the Way Live" in a bout a minutes span? More more more... BTW, the interview whch Farah Griffin, Kristen Galagher and I did w/ Harryette can be found on the EPC website, here: http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc/authors/mullen/interview-new.html -m. ccording to David Zauhar: > > I also taught Mullen to undergrads, though in a > "Gender/Sexuality/literature course. Students had no trouble getting into > it, though I suspect having read Stein's _Tender Buttons_ about a month > before made it a lot more accessible to them than it otherwise would've > been. > Dictee, though I've never taught it, would also be great, > especially if you want to complicate students' senses of how these > cultural identities are formed in and through writing. > > David Zauhar > University of Illinois at Chicago > > "i have a city to cover with lines" > > --d.a. levy > > On Thu, 10 May 2001, Alan C. Golding wrote: > > > Hi, Eric-- > > > > Re Mullen's Muse & Drudge: I've taught it at the undergrad and grad level (and in a rush over the summer), and in my experience students (including the non-majors) love it. As with all sorts of texts, one has to take a little time to acclimatize the group to the book's verbal worlds and the sort of reading it asks for, but then they really get into it. I usually combine it with brief selections from her first book, Tree Tall Woman, and from Trimmings, for context, and use her "Poetry and Identity" essay; and she has some very instructive and accessible interviews that also help. > > > > On the Gillan anthology Unsettling America: it seems to me mostly predictable and uninteresting both formally and thematically--indistinguishable from the last 100 pages of any anthology of American lit that you'd care to name (the Heath, the Norton, the x, the y). > > > > I've also had good luck teaching Cha's Dictee, one of my favorite books, though a few more people remain baffled by that than they do by the Mullen. > > > > Alan > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From ron.silliman Thu May 10 16:24:14 2001 From: ron.silliman (Ron Silliman) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 16:24:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman & Tuttle May 12 in Washington DC Message-ID: <002101c0d98f$3af8aba0$3353fea9@oemcomputer> We hope you can join us Saturday, May 12 at 7:30 p.m. at the Ruthless Grip Poetry Series at Washington Printmakers (1732 Connecticut Ave., second floor, several blocks north of the Dupont Circle Q Street Metro Exit) for a fabulous evening of poetry with RON SILLIMAN and BILL TUTTLE. Since 1979, RON SILLIMAN has been writing a poem entitled The Alphabet. Volumes published thus far from that project have included ABC, Demo to Ink,Jones, Lit, Manifest, N/O, Paradise, (R), Toner, What and Xing. Silliman lives in Chester County, Pennsylvania, with his wife and two sons, and works as a market analyst in the computer industry. His anthology In the American Tree is soon to be re-issued with a new afterword, and Salt is republishing his longpoem Tjanting for British and Australian audiences. BILL TUTTLE is the author of two books of poetry, Private Residence (Leave Books) and epistolary: first series (meow press). His poems and reviews have appeared in Denver Quarterly, Kiosk, Situation, and Open 24 Hours, as well as the anthologies The Gertrude Stein Awards in Innovative American Poetry 1993-94 and Writing from the New Coast. In 1997 he earned his PhD from the Poetics Program at SUNY-Buffalo, writing a dissertation on the meditative long poems of Gertrude Stein, Wallace Stevens, and John Ashbery. Tuttle is also a songwriter and works as a studio musician, playing piano and retro spaceage keyboard. He currently teaches English at Central Community College in Columbus, Nebraska. From mcdono Thu May 10 16:58:16 2001 From: mcdono (Judy McDonough) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 15:58:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] any wonderful little WCW book like the Vendler on Stevens? Message-ID: <001701c0d993$efd5a5b0$a9712e80@ecn.purdue.edu> The Vendler book on Stevens is so wonderful I'm wondering if there's anything as good as an introduction to Williams? Judy Smith McDonough, editor poetrynow http://www.poetrynow.org From dzauhar Fri May 11 08:53:29 2001 From: dzauhar (David Zauhar) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 07:53:29 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] any wonderful little WCW book like the Vendler on Stevens? In-Reply-To: <001701c0d993$efd5a5b0$a9712e80@ecn.purdue.edu> Message-ID: Sherman Paul's _The Music of Survival_, perhaps. Or James Breslin's _William Carlos Williams: An American Artist_. And a more post-structuralist (actually, Heideggarian) approach: Joseph Riddel's _The Inverted Bell: Modernism and the Counterpoetics of WCW_. Of course, these books just pop into my mind, and the most recent, Riddel's, has to be at least 25 years old. Can anyone update my bibliography? David Zauhar University of Illinois at Chicago "i have a city to cover with lines" --d.a. levy On Thu, 10 May 2001, Judy McDonough wrote: > The Vendler book on Stevens is so wonderful I'm wondering > if there's anything as good as an introduction to Williams? > > Judy Smith McDonough, editor > poetrynow > http://www.poetrynow.org > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From JforJames Fri May 11 08:55:06 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 08:55:06 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Our National Pastime In 3 Lines Message-ID: <3d.b8a2dc1.282d3b2a@aol.com> Submission Deadline: Wednesday, August 1, 2001 The Loft's First Annual Baseball Haiku Prize invites poets and baseball fans to enter as many baseball haiku as they'd like in a competition saluting the American pastime. The Loft will print the best baseball haiku it receives in issues of A View from the Loft, through the 2001 baseball season. Three winners will be chosen in late August to receive a pair of Twins tickets for a game this September. Our contract: we don't expect great poems; you don't expect a pennant race. Poems must be about baseball and must be three lines long (if you don't count syllables, we won't either). Enter early and often for the best chance of seeing your baseball haiku in print and for a crack at Twins tickets. Send all entries (as many as you can stuff into an envelope), by August 1, 2001, to Baseball Haiku, The Loft Literary Center, Suite 200, Open Book, 1011 Washington Avenue South, Minneapolis, MN 55415. Make sure you retain a copy of your haiku. The Loft cannot return them. From JforJames Fri May 11 11:28:47 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 11:28:47 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Canon Cut & Paste: Norton Anthology of Theory and Criticism Message-ID: <7e.14b3455b.282d5f2f@aol.com> Making the Cut When the editors of a new Norton anthology decided which writers to keep and which to drop, they cemented theory's place in the academy By SCOTT McLEMEE Full article at... http://chronicle.com/free/v47/i34/34a01601.htm#survivors Excerpts... As central as Mr. Cain finds the work of William Empson, whose book Seven Kinds of Ambiguity influenced generations of English professors, the market forces were not on his side. "There were a lot of constraints," Mr. Cain notes, "certainly more than I expected coming in." "Criticism," Mr. Leitch maintains, no longer means "belletristic" essays by figures such as Lionel Trilling and Alfred Kazin, who wrote for an educated readership outside the university. Instead, Norton is marketing the book to young teachers -- and more experienced instructors who do not want to be hopelessly behind the times -- who may need help to guide their students through Gayatri Spivak's "Can the Subaltern Speak?" should the occasion arise. LITERARY SURVIVORS Nobody said shaping a canon would be easy. In 1996, the editors of The Norton Anthology of Theory and Criticism had a list of 300 candidates for inclusion. After numerous elimination rounds over the next few years, they cut that number almost in half. Last autumn, they discovered that the volume still approached 3,000 pages -- huge, even for a Norton anthology. At the last possible moment, almost two dozen contenders had to be cut. The finished book contains work by 147 prominent figures. Here is a sampling of works that made the cut -- and a few of those that didn't. 10 Who Made the Cut Aristotle (384-322 B.C.) Poetics Christine de Pizan (c. 1364-c. 1430) Excerpts from The Book of the City of Ladies Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel (1770-1831) Introduction to the Philosophy of Fine Arts T. S. Eliot (1888-1965) "Tradition and the Individual Talent" Roman Jakobson (1896-1982) From Cadaly Sat May 12 16:17:06 2001 From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 16:17:06 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] evolve or die (was norton anthology of critical works) Message-ID: <6b.1440341a.282ef442@aol.com> It's pretty unfortunate they decided to republish so much work that's in the public domain and easily available online, and then had to cut essays students actually don't have and need. Rgds, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards Sat May 12 17:13:29 2001 From: tadrichards (OTIS RICHARDS) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 17:13:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] evolve or die (was norton anthology of critical works) References: <6b.1440341a.282ef442@aol.com> Message-ID: <000d01c0db28$655c5aa0$6401a8c0@ibm25310> How much is/will/should the availability of public domain work online affect the anthology biz? Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: Cadaly at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 4:17 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] evolve or die (was norton anthology of critical works) It's pretty unfortunate they decided to republish so much work that's in the public domain and easily available online, and then had to cut essays students actually don't have and need. Rgds, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wasanthony Sun May 13 08:30:32 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 05:30:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Sven Birkerts declines . . . Message-ID: <20010513123032.79733.qmail@web12104.mail.yahoo.com> the invitation to be keynote speaker for our lit festival, and via an e-mail yet. So now I must find someone else of his caliber in a hurry, and preferably someone who lives not too many states away. Any suggestions? I combed the AWP list and could find no one like that - someone with name-recognition quality. I should be able to think of someone but my head is too crowded with end-of-semester crapola. Actually, I was thinking Robert Sward, who I met in Palm Springs and found quite urbane and eloquent. But, any suggestions would be appreciated. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From JforJames Sun May 13 22:06:38 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 22:06:38 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Mulling Over Mullen's Muse & Drudge Message-ID: <9e.144f5620.283097ae@aol.com> I'm glad I read Michael Magee's interview... Harryette Mullen: "I think it's the rhythm and the rhyme, those musical qualities that the poem has. I thought of this as a poem that people could hear even if they didn't really understand it all. I don't expect anyone to understand it all. Even I don't understand it all because some of it is literally nonsense. I mean some of it is my riffing around with words and just seeing what comes out. There's an improvisational aspect to it, and it's not necessarily meant to have a deep meaning, although in some cases it might be meaningful in ways not immediately apparent. My idea is to allow people to be carried along by the oral qualities of the work in those moments when they're not getting it at some other level. So there's still a way that they can be in and with the poem." ...because this is very much what I got out of the book-poem(s) a couple of years back when I first read it: A cadenced rimy riffing...some fortuitous word combinations, for sure; and a certain amount of felicitous phrasing. But nothing groundbreaking to speak of. A ride with a mind using sound as its primary means of propulsion. And some "groaner" puns worked in for good measure. A book(poem) of 80 pages: each page contains a four four line stanzas. It's difficult to tell if each page is meant to stand as both a discrete piece & part-n-parcel of the whole. But I feel the book is meant to be read whole: beginning to end. By the end the 80 pages aggregate to something very much akin to "voice": A singular style of singing that gives the "speaker" some ghostly definition: A who(le). I read the poem straight through in a single sitting. It's not every book of poetry I can say that about. But I'm not sure that is necessarily a good thing. Without narrative underpinnings or a particular subjective perspective/stance, it's perhaps too easy for the mind to run roughshod over such poems. The reader untroubled because the author doesn't seem to have troubled to convince either by rendering distinct experience or by nuance of thought. (Excerpts below.) Finnegan -- excerpts from Muse & Drudge: Sapphire's lyre styles plucked eyebrows bow lips and legs whose lives are lonely too my last nerve's lucid music sure chewed up the juicy fruit you must don't like my peaches there's some left on the tree you've had my thrills a reefer a tub of gin don't mess with me I'm evil I'm in your sin clipped bird eclipsed moon soon no memory of you no drive or desire survives you flutter invisible still (p 1) keep your powder dry your knees together your dress down your drawers shut a picture perfect twisted her limbs lovely as a tree for art's sake muse of the world picks out stark melodies her raspy fabric tickling the ebonies you can sing their songs with words your way put it over to the people know what you doing (p 17) sugar shack full of fat sweaty ladies women of size with men who love too much what is inward wanting to get out prey to the lard trying to pass for butter cakewalk matrix tapping the frets dubbed and mastered tucked into the folds kiss my black bottom good and plenty where the doorknob split the sun don't shine (p 23) up from slobbery hip hyperbole the soles of black feet beat down back streets a Yankee porkchop for your knife and fork your fill of freedom in Philmeyork never trouble rupture urban space fluctuates gentrify the infrastructure feel up vacant spades no moors steady whores studs warn no mares blurred rubble slew of vowels stutter war no more (p. 46) cross color ochre with stalk of okra that prickly lover told her she tastes like an Okie yet lacks the rich aroma of a smoker those cloudy days I'd fly from the icy airport while you tried to breathe life into your bucktoothed scarecrow if you turned down the media so I could write a book then you could look me up in your voluminous recyclopedia raped notes torn as deep ones parted the frank odor of the rodeo the reason a person (p. 68) mister arty martyr a jackass to water changing partners in the middle of a stream bereft of flavor for lack of endeavor he chooses a heifer and loses forever delirious boozer he smoothes her sutures removes a moocher from her future a thing of shreds and patches hideous scarecrow she puts teeth in any nightmare of the man who sleeps with matches (P. 72) just as I am I come knee bent and body bowed this here's sorrow's home my body's southern song cram all you can into jelly jam preserve a feeling keep it sweet so beautiful it was presumptuous to alter the shape of my pleasure in doing or making proceed with abandon finding yourself where you are and who you're playing for with stray companion (p. 80) From bckice Mon May 14 11:26:21 2001 From: bckice (brent kice) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 10:26:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wallace Stevens-Anecdote of the Jar Message-ID: <3afff91d.9390.0@loyno.edu> Wallace Stevens? ?Anecdote of the Jar." I found this poem rather disapointing. It appears to be about a public subject, but written from a private point of view. I am certain that the jar represents something specific to Stevens. I guess it represents some entity within society, maybe industry, through the line, ?It took dominion everywhere.? But then again, he syas, ?I placed a jar in Tennesse.? So, it means that this ?jar? was actually put in place by Stevens. This jar even quelled the wilderness, ?The wilderness rose up to it, / And sprawled around, no longer wild.? This jar only halts things from growing. ?It did not give of bird or bush.? Why does Stevens want to put down a jar that will only ruin things in the end? Maybe if I knew more about him I could have a better understanding of what Tennesse has to do with it. From paul.lake Mon May 14 02:26:04 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 01:26:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bi-polar Emily? Message-ID: An article in today's Washington Post on Emily Dickinson. Paul Lake http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22628-2001May13.html From JforJames Mon May 14 13:36:59 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 13:36:59 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Big City Lit Message-ID: <3c.baf026c.283171bb@aol.com> From moira_russell Mon May 14 13:48:05 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 09:48:05 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bi-polar Emily? Message-ID: I love the empty but-of-course-this-is-all-speculation caveat along paragraph 3: "Diagnosing the mental conditions of the deceased is highly speculative, and linking genius and madness tends to romanticize mental illness: Madness is certainly not a requirement for creativity, and most people with serious mental illnesses are tormented and dysfunctional, not great artists." The rest of the article, of course, is taken up with happy speculating. "Robert Weisberg, a psychologist at Temple University, studied the 19th-century German composer Robert Schumann....to see whether the music created during his manic periods was better. 'He produced a lot more when he was manic, but not a lot that was better,' said Weisberg, who used the number of recordings made of the composer's works to determine 'quality.'" -- The _hell?_ And for heaven's sake, mania doesn't make you psychotic until it rages out of control in "white nights." A professor of psychiatry doesn't know this? No, I suppose what would be surprising would be if a professor of psychiatry _did_ know that. Connolly's "jackals snarling over a dried-up well" has turned into "armchair psychologists arguing over long-gone psyches," apparently. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From JforJames Mon May 14 15:14:22 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 15:14:22 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Anthology of 20th Century British & Irish Poetry. Message-ID: <83.b095906.2831888e@aol.com> I was thinking the other day that I've probably read hundreds of contemporary American poets, but I know the work of only a handful of contemporary British poets (& maybe few more of the Irish). I know the work of less than a handful of Australian. I can hold up no fingers to represent New Zealand. And not many Canadian contemporaries, for that matter, come to mind. Web-based magazines like Jacket and listservs are helping me get a better picture of the poetry from other English speaking countries but I'm still benighted. With all the dithering about "Can poetry matter?", I wonder why more isn't written to decry the parochial bias we have in US (tho I suspect it cuts both ways, to some degree). Finnegan FYI from the British Poets list.... Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 11:32:38 -0600 From: Jeremy Green Subject: Review of OUP anthology Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but Jacket 15 now includes former list-maestro Ric Caddel's review of Keith Tuma's Anthology of 20th Century British & Irish Poetry. Find it at: http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/jacket15/caddel-reviews-tuma.html Rather grudging, I thought. Best, Jeremy From moira_russell Mon May 14 15:26:46 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 11:26:46 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Anthology of 20th Century British & Irish Poetry. Message-ID: James wrote: >I can hold up no fingers to represent New Zealand. I like the OUP "Anthology of New Zealand Poetry in English" quite a lot. Pricey but nicely diverse. Somewhere along the line I got a bit obsessed with New Zealand poetry, not sure why -- something to do with early exposure to Janet Frame, I think. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From tadrichards Mon May 14 15:26:38 2001 From: tadrichards (theoldmole) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 15:26:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bi-polar Emily? References: Message-ID: <008b01c0dcab$cc4d24e0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Re "most people with serious mental illnesses are tormented and ysfunctional, not great artists." Most people without serious mental illness may be cheerful and efficient, but still not great artists. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Moira Russell" To: Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 1:48 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Bi-polar Emily? > > I love the empty but-of-course-this-is-all-speculation caveat along > paragraph 3: "Diagnosing the mental conditions of the deceased is highly > speculative, and linking genius and madness tends to romanticize mental > illness: Madness is certainly not a requirement for creativity, and most > people with serious mental illnesses are tormented and dysfunctional, not > great artists." The rest of the article, of course, is taken up with happy > speculating. > > "Robert Weisberg, a psychologist at Temple University, studied the > 19th-century German composer Robert Schumann....to see whether the music > created during his manic periods was better. 'He produced a lot more when he > was manic, but not a lot that was better,' said Weisberg, who used the > number of recordings made of the composer's works to determine 'quality.'" > -- The _hell?_ > > And for heaven's sake, mania doesn't make you psychotic until it rages out > of control in "white nights." A professor of psychiatry doesn't know this? > No, I suppose what would be surprising would be if a professor of psychiatry > _did_ know that. > > Connolly's "jackals snarling over a dried-up well" has turned into "armchair > psychologists arguing over long-gone psyches," apparently. > > Moira Russell > Seattle, WA > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard Mon May 14 15:57:52 2001 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 15:57:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bi-polar Emily? In-Reply-To: <008b01c0dcab$cc4d24e0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: > Re "most people with serious mental illnesses are tormented and > ysfunctional, not great artists." > > Most people without serious mental illness may be cheerful and efficient, > but still not great artists. Most great artists may be cheerful and efficient people without serious mental illness. Hal "Poetry is harder to read than prose because you have to read all the white stuff too." Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From tadrichards Mon May 14 16:15:33 2001 From: tadrichards (theoldmole) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:15:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bi-polar Emily? References: Message-ID: <00d801c0dcb2$a144bd60$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> How about those of us with two out of three? I'm pretty cheerful, and have no serious mental illness...but efficient? Uh uh. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 3:57 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Bi-polar Emily? > > Re "most people with serious mental illnesses are tormented and > > ysfunctional, not great artists." > > > > Most people without serious mental illness may be cheerful and efficient, > > but still not great artists. > > Most great artists may be cheerful and efficient people without > serious mental illness. > > Hal "Poetry is harder to read than prose because > you have to read all the white stuff too." > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards Mon May 14 16:20:05 2001 From: tadrichards (theoldmole) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:20:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wallace Stevens-Anecdote of the Jar References: <3afff91d.9390.0@loyno.edu> Message-ID: <00d901c0dcb3$43af6a00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> I always assumed that what the jar did to the wilderness in Tennessee was an awful, unintended consequence of the narrator's putting it there. At least, semi-unintended. But I also think that the quelling of the wilderness takes place in the narrator's mind. One jar can't really do all that to the extent that it would be widely noticed. The narrator, having wilfully defaced the wilderness with this jar - as a test of some sort - now has his own consciousness taken over by the jar. And something else is going on in the narrator's mind, too -- form and craft have intruded upon the wilderness of the imagination. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "brent kice" To: Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 11:26 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Wallace Stevens-Anecdote of the Jar Wallace Stevens' "Anecdote of the Jar." I found this poem rather disapointing. It appears to be about a public subject, but written from a private point of view. I am certain that the jar represents something specific to Stevens. I guess it represents some entity within society, maybe industry, through the line, "It took dominion everywhere." But then again, he syas, "I placed a jar in Tennesse." So, it means that this "jar" was actually put in place by Stevens. This jar even quelled the wilderness, "The wilderness rose up to it, / And sprawled around, no longer wild." This jar only halts things from growing. "It did not give of bird or bush." Why does Stevens want to put down a jar that will only ruin things in the end? Maybe if I knew more about him I could have a better understanding of what Tennesse has to do with it. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From moira_russell Mon May 14 16:35:12 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 12:35:12 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wallace Stevens-Anecdote of the Jar Message-ID: I forget where I read it, but there was a tongue-in-cheek interpretation that explained the jar had been full of moonshine, which had been emptied by the poet, hence resulting in the poem. Or maybe it was in one of those gee-look-at-the-boners-our-students-pulled-golly-isn't-that-cute anthologies. Moira Russell Seattle, WA >I always assumed that what the jar did to the wilderness in Tennessee was >an >awful, unintended consequence of the narrator's putting it there. At least, >semi-unintended. > >But I also think that the quelling of the wilderness takes place in the >narrator's mind. One jar can't really do all that to the extent that it >would be widely noticed. The narrator, having wilfully defaced the >wilderness with this jar - as a test of some sort - now has his own >consciousness taken over by the jar. > >And something else is going on in the narrator's mind, too -- form and >craft >have intruded upon the wilderness of the imagination. > > > Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." > The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet > of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 > http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards >----- Original Message ----- >From: "brent kice" >To: >Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 11:26 AM >Subject: [New-Poetry] Wallace Stevens-Anecdote of the Jar > > >Wallace Stevens' "Anecdote of the Jar." I found this poem rather >disapointing. > It appears to be about a public subject, but written from a private point >of >view. I am certain that the jar represents something specific to Stevens. >I guess it represents some entity within society, maybe industry, through >the >line, "It took dominion everywhere." But then again, he syas, "I placed a >jar >in Tennesse." So, it means that this "jar" was actually put in place by >Stevens. > This jar even quelled the wilderness, "The wilderness rose up to it, / >And >sprawled around, no longer wild." This jar only halts things from growing. > "It did not give of bird or bush." Why does Stevens want to put down a >jar >that will only ruin things in the end? Maybe if I knew more about him I >could >have a better understanding of what Tennesse has to do with it. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From Edward.Byrne Mon May 14 16:56:16 2001 From: Edward.Byrne (Edward Byrne) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 15:56:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bi-polar Emily? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From tadrichards Mon May 14 17:07:26 2001 From: tadrichards (theoldmole) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 17:07:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bi-polar Emily? References: Message-ID: <00fe01c0dcb9$e10908a0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Has anyone considered the most likely theory? Emily was reclusive because she had a secret identity. To the world, a reclusive, bookish New England spinster. But at night...known only to her faithful butler...CATWOMAN! Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward Byrne" To: Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 4:56 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Bi-polar Emily? > From the article: "Dickinson was much more prolific during the spring > and summer and much less productive in the winter, he found." > > I have suffered from the same fluctuation in productivity for years. > In fact, my mood switched again last week; however, I have usually > attributed this to something I call "summer vacation." > > Also, I remember a number of years back there was an article in _The > New York Times_ suggesting Emily's reclusiveness was a result of poor > eyesight, a condition called Wall-Eye. > > --Edward Byrne > > > An article in today's Washington Post on Emily Dickinson. > > > > Paul Lake > > > > http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22628-2001May13.html > > -------------------------------------------------- > > Edward Byrne > Department of English > 322 Huegli Hall > Valparaiso University > Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 > > E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu > http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/ > > Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review > E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu > http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/ > Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 > Fax: (219) 464-5511 > > -------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard Mon May 14 17:19:29 2001 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 17:19:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bi-polar Emily? In-Reply-To: <00d801c0dcb2$a144bd60$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: No, no, no, Tad. Your task was to add yet another variant of the original sentence. How are we ever going to finish our work if you keep going off on personal tangents? Hal > How about those of us with two out of three? I'm pretty cheerful, and have > no serious mental illness...but efficient? Uh uh. > > > Tad Richards > > > Re "most people with serious mental illnesses are tormented and > > > ysfunctional, not great artists." > > > > > > Most people without serious mental illness may be cheerful and > > >efficient, but still not great artists. > > > > Most great artists may be cheerful and efficient people without > > serious mental illness. From wasanthony Mon May 14 17:25:03 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 14:25:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Bi-polar Emily? In-Reply-To: <00fe01c0dcb9$e10908a0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <20010514212503.65580.qmail@web12105.mail.yahoo.com> --- theoldmole wrote: > Has anyone considered the most likely theory? Emily was reclusive > because > she had a secret identity. To the world, a reclusive, bookish New > England > spinster. But at night...known only to her faithful > butler...CATWOMAN! Yes, but only during spring and summer. In winter she was WORMWOMAN! - Jim, working on his mood, seriously . . . and cheerfully ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From tadrichards Mon May 14 17:43:12 2001 From: tadrichards (theoldmole) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 17:43:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bi-polar Emily? References: Message-ID: <012e01c0dcbe$dfe1fb80$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Uh oh ... there's that confessional school of poetry popping up again. Most great illnesses can be made into an art by the cheerful and efficient. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 5:19 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Bi-polar Emily? > No, no, no, Tad. Your task was to add yet another variant > of the original sentence. How are we ever going to finish our > work if you keep going off on personal tangents? > > Hal > > > How about those of us with two out of three? I'm pretty cheerful, and have > > no serious mental illness...but efficient? Uh uh. > > > > > > Tad Richards > > > > Re "most people with serious mental illnesses are tormented and > > > > ysfunctional, not great artists." > > > > > > > > Most people without serious mental illness may be cheerful and > > > >efficient, but still not great artists. > > > > > > Most great artists may be cheerful and efficient people without > > > serious mental illness. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From acgold01 Mon May 14 17:48:58 2001 From: acgold01 (Alan C. Golding) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 17:48:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] English and Irish Poetry Message-ID: On the subject of what Jim Finnegan called "parochial bias" regarding contemporary English poetry, I heartily recommend Keith Tuma's Fishing by Obstinate Isles: Modern and Postmodern British Poetry and American Readers (Northwestern, 1998), which both offers a thorough historical recounting of the phenomenon and helps redress it via some exemplary readings of specific poets. (Keith is the editor of the OUP anthology that's been mentioned.) Alan Golding From CobbCoStudioArts Mon May 14 19:03:24 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:03:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Bi-polar Emily? Message-ID: <20010514230324.3747E36FA@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From Jandhodge Mon May 14 21:37:21 2001 From: Jandhodge (Jandhodge at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 21:37:21 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Bi-polar Emily? Message-ID: << Most great illnesses can be made into an art by the cheerful and efficient. >> And most cheer and efficiency can be made into art by great [mental] illness? Jan From halvard Tue May 15 08:12:41 2001 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 08:12:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] FW: Barcelona Review #24 Now On-line Message-ID: Hi, y'all-- Barcelona Review is celebrating its fourth anniversary, and, while I don't often plug websites, this one has a lot of good reading matter salted away in its archives. If you've not read Irvine Welsh, get acquainted by rummaging around in the archives here and finding "Fault on the Line." Work up a Glaswegian accent and read it aloud to someone with a sense of humor. This is also a good place to practice your Spanish and/or Catalan. Hal > -----Original Message----- > From: Jill Adams [mailto:bar_rev at retemail.es] > Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 6:58 AM > Subject: Barcelona Review #24 Now On-line > > > English - espa?ol - catal? > > Dear friends and subscribers, > > Issue 24, marking TBR?s fourth anniversary issue, is now on-line. We kick off with an extract from James Ellroy?s new > novel, which hits the bookstores this week in the U.S. We also have a profile entitled ?Lunch and Tea with James > Ellroy,? written after we met up with him here in Barcelona where the novel was launched in Spain last month. Our quiz > this issue is on Ellroy as well, so if you?re an aficionado, test your knowledge and maybe win a signed copy of one of his books. > > In translation, we have two stories by Cuban author by Pedro Juan Guti?rrez: ?Buried in Shit? and ?Stars and Losers.? > Guti?rrez writes from the squalid center of today?s Havana where rum, sex and poverty dominate the scene. ?Star and > Losers? opens with the memorable line: ?I like to smell my armpits while I masturbate.? The New York Times compares him > to Jean Genet and Charles Bukowsi ?in the brutality of his honesty.? > > Two new writers this issue - Terry DeHart and Heather Fowler, both from the U.S. - offer humorous, off-beat tales that > won us over. Be sure to have a look. > > We?d also like to bring your attention to the delightfully funny story we featured last year in issue 21 - Alicia Erian?s > ?When Animals Attack.? The story has just come out in the U.S. in her collection _The Brutal Language of Love_ > (Villard), which is getting excellent and well-deserved praise from the critics. If you missed it in issue 21, have a > look now. > > No answers to last issue?s Hemingway Quiz, but many close calls. Check out the answers and find out just who the critic > was that stated: ? . . . The message to women reading [A Farewell to Arms] is simple: the only good woman is a dead one.? > > Be sure to check out four years? worth of TBR fiction in the TBR Archives - authors listed alphabetically, just scroll > down the list and have a look at who?s there. > > Book Reviews on offer as always. And the Links page continues to grow. > > Be sure to send us your comments. We like to get your feedback. > > Hasta la pr?xima, > > Jill Adams > The Barcelona Review -- http://www.barcelonareview.com > ___________________________ > espa?ol > > TBR celebra en este n?mero, con todos sus lectores, su 4? cumplea?os, y quiere hacerlo ofreciendo las mejores lecturas. > > Narrativa: > > ***James Ellroy, Seis de los grandes, Cap?tulo 1: extracto de la ?ltima novela del "perro rabioso" de las letras > norteamericanas, lanzada en espa?ol hace apenas un mes. > ***Pedro Juan Guti?rrez, Aplastado por la mierda y Estrellas y pendejos, dos fragmentos de la vibrante Trilog?a sucia de La Habana > ***Juan Abreu, El masturbador, un relato ya publicado por TBR y recuperado en este n?mero con ocasi?n de la aparici?n de > Garbageland, la ?ltima novela del autor, de la que forma parte > ***C?mo odiamos las despedidas, de Jes?s Llorente, uno de los muchos y muy buenos cuentos que componen el Almanaque > Invasores de Marte > ***Lorena X301, de la poeta, narradora y traductora Amparo Arr?spide, agridulce retrato de una criada-robot con > sentimientos muy humanos, y su "malvada" se?ora > ***Matt Marinovich, Proyecci?n de diapositivas, con traducci?n de Ana Alcaina, un cuento recuperado de nuestro n? 13, > ahora en la nueva versi?n flash > > Poes?a: > > *** Dos poetas luxemburgueses: Anise Koltz y Jean Portante, en versi?n biling?e y traducci?n de Jos? M? Gonz?lez Holguera > ***Delirium tremens (fragemntos), de Leo Zelada, poeta peruano > ***Tres poemas, de Lola M?ndez > > Art?culos: > > Pr?logo al Almanaque Invasores de Marte, por Javier Calvo > > Entrevistas: > > ***James Ellroy, realizada en Madrid por sus traductores Montse Gurgu? y Hern?n Sabat? > ***Juan Abreu, por Daniel Attala > > Quiz: > > ***James Ellroy, preparado por M. Gurgu? > > Rese?as: > > ***Seis de los grandes, de J. Ellroy, por Fabio Vericat > ***Garbageland, de Juan Abreu, por Julieta Lionetti > > Arte: > ***Reproducciones de obra de la artista catalana Sabala, con un texto de Mercedes Abad. > > Nota: > ***Asociaci?n Amigos y Amigas de las Bibliotecas de Barcelona > > Daniel Naj?mas, editor > http://www.barcelonareview.com/cas > ___________________________ > catal? > > Benvolguts subscriptors i amics, > Destaquem en aquest n?mero 24 de la versi? catalana de la Barcelona Review el reportatge po?tico-gr?fic de Victor Sunyol > i Marina Sans sobre el Raval, aix? com la mostra d'obra pict?rica de Sabala. A la secci? de narrativa hi trobareu dos > fragments de Bestiari de Mart? Dom?nguez i un conte de Pinckney Benedict, amb una ressenya de cadascun d'aquests dos > llibres; com tamb? el conte sobre LLum An?mat d'Ester Xargay i la reflexi? parapar?mica de Carles Hac Mor. Melcion Mateu > ens fa una recomanaci? de traductor de l'?ltima novel?la de Michael Ondatjee. A la secci? po?tica, a m?s de 5 poemes de > Ramon Farr?s, i de la > col?laboraci? de Sergi Jover, recomanem algunes activitats de la Setmana de > Poesia de Barcelona que tindr? lloc del 18 al 25 de maig, i us oferim en prim?cia un poema de Dorothy Porter i un altre > de Lionel G. Fogarty. Esperem que us agradi, i agra?rem tota mena de suggeriments. > Una salutaci? cordial. > Dolors Udina, editora > The Barcelona Review -- http://www.barcelonareview.com/cat > From JforJames Tue May 15 10:15:48 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 10:15:48 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] TWO POEMS ON SOLITUDE Message-ID: <97.1550cfe4.28329414@aol.com> From: webmaster at randomhouse.com Reply-to: knopfwebmaster at randomhouse.com TWO POEMS ON SOLITUDE by Daniel Halpern and Jack Gilbert +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ from SOMETHING SHINING, by Daniel Halpern Daughter & Chair It's a sunny day in the middle of the year, My daughter in a new white dress suns herself in a very bright green beach chair. She's too young to sit there for long, just long enough to pursue a dream, a single longing: a sweet, a new toy. The sun is steady, late afternoon. She's an only child and we worry she's lonely, even when dressed up and dreaming. If we ask her she pretends not to hear and pulls at her reddish hair, looking off. If we ask again she'll say, Yes, lonesome. There's only the one sun and it shines in her eyes. Copyright (c) 1999 by Daniel Halpern +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From JforJames Tue May 15 12:21:11 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 12:21:11 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] sonnet contest Message-ID: ANNUAL HOWARD NEMEROV SONNET AWARD The Formalist: A Journal of Medical Poetry 320 Hunter Drive Evansville, IN 47711 Annual contest for an unpublished sonnet to encourage poetic craftsmanship and to honor the memory of the late Howard Nemerov, third US Poet Laureate. Entries: Accepts original and unpublished sonnets. Sonnet sequences are acceptable, but each sonnet will be considered individually. Author's name, address and phone number should be typed on the back of the entry. Contact: Mona Baer. Acquires first North American serial rights for those sonnets chosen for publication. Upon publication all rights revert to the author. Open to the international community of writers. Deadline: June 15. Winners will be notified by Sept. Include SASE for notification. Fees: $3/sonnet. Prizes: The winner receives $1,000. The winning poem and 11 finalists will be published in the Fall/Winter 2001 issue of The Formalist. --- From gmcvay Tue May 15 13:43:33 2001 From: gmcvay (Gwyn McVay) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 13:43:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] sonnet contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>>The Formalist: A Journal of Medical Poetry 320 Hunter Drive ^^^^^^^ Evansville, IN 47711 Calling Dr. Gioia! Dr. Steele! Dr. Gioia! From moira_russell Tue May 15 14:06:55 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 10:06:55 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] sonnet contest Message-ID: You say med-i-cal, I say met-ri-cal -- A sonnet! -- A lancet! -- A tisket! -- A tasket! Let's call the whole competition off! Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From JforJames Tue May 15 14:54:00 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 14:54:00 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] English and Irish Poetry Message-ID: > I heartily recommend Keith Tuma's Fishing by Obstinate Isles: Modern and > Postmodern British Poetry and American Readers (Northwestern, 1998), which > both offers a thorough historical recounting of the phenomenon and helps > redress it via some exemplary readings of specific poets Alan, thanks for the tip...I'll track down a copy. Tho right now I seem to building a sturdy fortress wall of unread book at my bedside. Jim Finnegan From JforJames Tue May 15 14:57:50 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 14:57:50 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry From Scotland / The Jewel Box Message-ID: <26.155e4d17.2832d62e@aol.com> The Jewel Box http://www.spl.org.uk/projects/FrameTopProjects.htm Contemporary Scottish Poetry on CD The Jewel Box is a new collection of contemporary Scottish poetry, published on audio CD by the Scottish Poetry Library. It features recordings from some of Scotland's most distinguished and innovative poets, of all ages and backgrounds, writing in English, Scots and Gaelic. The collection offers an exciting opportunity to hear the poets reading their own work. As Tom Pow, one of the contributors, comments: ?I remember the excitement I felt the first time I heard Dylan Thomas read his own poems on a scratchy old record and how rare it was then to hear the poet's voice. So I think it's wonderful that all these Scottish voices should be gathered on one CD - an event both celebratory and historic.? Find out more about The Jewel Box project by reading the preface to the CD booklet, written by the editors, Ken Cockburn and Alec Finlay. See also Alec Finlay's speech written for the launch of The Jewel Box. The CD contents are listed here. (Contributions marked with the symbol can be downloaded free of charge.) McCarey, Peter When it starts... Smith, Iain Crichton Putting out the Ashes Lipton, Douglas from The Flora & Fauna of an Independent Scotland Riddell, Alan The honey pot Herbert, W.N. Corbandie Pow, Tom The Father De Luca, Christine Gyaain fur da Mylk Paisley, Janet Whist & Syrup of Figs Friel, Raymond May 1967 Paterson, Don Heliographer Burns, Elizabeth Sisters McCarey, Peter Was it you that... Fraser, Bashabi Do'Care Ransford, Tessa To My Son Going Abroad McCabe, Brian It Gillies, Valerie Maeve in Manhattan McCarey, Peter Double-click... Morgan, Edwin Transclusion Price, Richard Club mix Murray, Elspeth Flip Flotsam McCarey, Peter Herself as fickle... Whyte, Christopher An Daolag Shionach / The Chinese Beetle Turnbull, Gael There are words Thomson, Derick Da Chanan / Two Languages MacNeacail, Aonghas forladh dhachaigh/home vacation MacNeill, Kevin Young Chinese and Scottish McCarey, Peter The waters thaw... O'Rourke, Donny Great Western Road Jamie, Kathleen Lucky Bag Crawford, Robert The Result Gorman, Rody Naidheachd / News Clanchy, Kate Poem for a man with no sense of smell Bateman, Meg Aotromachd / Lightness Stephen, Ian Providence Bruce, George Herbour Wa, Macduff Leonard, Tom to have access to the silence Fitt, Matthew Jim Leighton McCarey, Peter You've got fifteen seconds... Riach, Alan A short introduction to my Uncle Glen MacLeod, Anne Voices on Water Daiches, Jenni Rain at Brackley Burnside, John Burning a Woman Clark, Thomas A. Twenty Blessings McCarey, Peter I've sung in... The Jewel Box recordings were made during the summer and autumn of 1999 and the CD was released in January 2000. The CD, together with an accompanying booklet, is now on sale priced ?8.99 at the Scottish Poetry Library, at bookshops throughout Scotland, and online via James Thin Booksellers ISBN number 0 9532235 1 5. The Jewel Box project is funded by the Scottish Arts Council National Lottery, from its Millennium Arts Festival Fund. A second strand of the initiative is a series of poetry festivals throughout Scotland during 2000. For any further information about The Jewel Box, please just get in touch: inquiries at spl.org.uk From paul.lake Tue May 15 03:59:30 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 02:59:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Scottish poetry Message-ID: There's a relatively new magazine called *Dark Horse," published in Scotland and edited by Gerry Cambridge, that also includes a lot of work by American poets. If you don't know the magazine, you might want to check it out. Paul Lake From Ben_Friedlander Wed May 16 08:49:44 2001 From: Ben_Friedlander (Ben Friedlander) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 08:49:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] contemporary autobiographical lyric Message-ID: I remember that there was a question on this list as to just what constitutes the "contemporary autobiographical lyric." I'm reading a book now that supplies an answer: Carl Dennis, _Poetry as Persuasion_ (University of Georgia Press, 2001). The book is written with unfailing clarity and exemplary generosity, though many will take issue with its account (I know I do). The stated subject is poetry "spoken in the first person by an 'I' in not always easy to distinguish from the writer, the kind of poem most commonly written today," and this is the underlying thesis: For a poem to be convincing, the primary task of the writer is to construct a speaker whose company is worth keeping, who exhibits certain virtues that win the reader's sympathetic attention. Dennis offers his book, in part, as a guide for aspiring writers, and this, I think, makes him more conservative than he'd be if writing for readers alone. He wants young poets to learn their art's basic craft (as he defines it, of course), and is thus disinclined to linger over poems where the "basics" are called into question. I probably wouldn't be reading this book if I hadn't made a friendly acquaintance with Dennis in Buffalo (a "sympathetic attention" that supports his argument, I suppose), but I'm glad I am. I agree with his conclusions much more than I would have imagined, and my disagreements are helping me sharpen my own understanding of what matters. Also, he offers the only close reading of "The Day Lady Died" that I've ever seen that actually deepens my understanding of what the poem is doing! Ben Friedlander From Edward.Byrne Wed May 16 10:56:33 2001 From: Edward.Byrne (Edward Byrne) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 09:56:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] contemporary autobiographical lyric In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I look forward to reading _Poetry as Persuasion_. It sounds as if Dennis is presenting a thesis similar to that in Jonathan Holden's latest book of criticism, _The Old Formalism: Character in Contemporary American Poetry_ (University of Arkansas Press, 1999), which I have found contains clarity and much common sense. The back jacket summary of Holden's book suggests the folowing: "Our appreciation of American poetry is as influenced by the personae presented in the poems as by public perception of the poets themselves." --Edward Byrne > I remember that there was a question on this list as to just what > constitutes the "contemporary autobiographical lyric." I'm reading a > book now that supplies an answer: Carl Dennis, _Poetry as Persuasion_ > (University of Georgia Press, 2001). The book is written with > unfailing clarity and exemplary generosity, though many will take issue > with its account (I know I do). The stated subject is poetry "spoken in > the first person by an 'I' in not always easy to distinguish from the > writer, the kind of poem most commonly written today," and this is the > underlying thesis: > > For a poem to be convincing, the primary task of the writer is to > construct a speaker whose company is worth keeping, who > exhibits certain virtues that win the reader's sympathetic > attention. > > Dennis offers his book, in part, as a guide for aspiring writers, and > this, I think, makes him more conservative than he'd be if writing for > readers alone. He wants young poets to learn their art's basic craft (as > he defines it, of course), and is thus disinclined to linger over poems > where the "basics" are called into question. > > I probably wouldn't be reading this book if I hadn't made a friendly > acquaintance with Dennis in Buffalo (a "sympathetic attention" that > supports his argument, I suppose), but I'm glad I am. I agree with his > conclusions much more than I would have imagined, and my disagreements > are helping me sharpen my own understanding of what matters. Also, he > offers the only close reading of "The Day Lady Died" that I've ever > seen that actually deepens my understanding of what the poem is doing! > > Ben Friedlander -------------------------------------------------- Edward Byrne Department of English 322 Huegli Hall Valparaiso University Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/ Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/ Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 Fax: (219) 464-5511 -------------------------------------------------- From jdavis Wed May 16 11:40:55 2001 From: jdavis (Jordan Davis) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 11:40:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] synthetic good guy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > person by an 'I' in not always easy to distinguish from the writer, the > kind of poem most commonly written today," and this is the underlying > thesis: > > For a poem to be convincing, the primary task of the writer is to > construct a speaker whose company is worth keeping, who > exhibits certain virtues that win the reader's sympathetic attention. > Ben - That's fine, but there's a corollary; the primary task of the reader is to hold ingratiating speakers of poems at bay until it can be determined just what these speakers are up to, and whether it's safe to sing along. Jordan From cstroffo Wed May 16 12:03:44 2001 From: cstroffo (chris stroffolino) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 12:03:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] synthetic good guy References: Message-ID: <3B02A4E0.35F978CA@earthlink.net> Really Jordan? What is this fear of being contaminated by ingratiating speakers? What is this desire for "safety" as primary when reading another? And if one only sings along when one feels safe, won't we have the kind of synthetic, boring (think 'N Synch) songs that make the first Bush years seem liberal by comparison? Chris Jordan Davis wrote: > > person by an 'I' in not always easy to distinguish from the writer, the > > kind of poem most commonly written today," and this is the underlying > > thesis: > > > > For a poem to be convincing, the primary task of the writer is to > > construct a speaker whose company is worth keeping, who > > exhibits certain virtues that win the reader's sympathetic attention. > > > > Ben - > > That's fine, but there's a corollary; the primary task of the reader is to > hold ingratiating speakers of poems at bay until it can be determined just > what these speakers are up to, and whether it's safe to sing along. > > Jordan > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd Wed May 16 13:02:43 2001 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 12:02:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] synthetic good guy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Ben - > >That's fine, but there's a corollary; the primary task of the reader is to >hold ingratiating speakers of poems at bay until it can be determined just >what these speakers are up to, and whether it's safe to sing along. > >Jordan > Jordan Davis's point is elaborated and complicated in a lovely essay by Sydney Lea, "Making A Case: Or, 'Where Are You Coming From?' ". Available in the Pack/Parini anthology *Writers On Writing* as well as in a certain forthcoming essay anthology on autobiographical poetics that I have plugged here too many times already. . . . Lea is a long-time advocate of Jonathan Holden's rhetorical brand of criticism, as mentioned by Edward Byrne. In his "Making A Case" essay he particularly speaks up for the poet's right to argue, to tell and not just show. And he recognizes that even in a meditative poem, a poet is presenting a speaker whose authority we are right to interrogate. Here are a few excerpts from Lea's essay: +++++++++++++++ In the late seventies, I read an essay by Brendan Galvin on poems he called "Mumblings" (in Ploughshares, 1978). In such poems, Galvin says, an unidentified first person "tries to tell the reader how he ought to feel about the nonspecific predicament of an often unspecified person." Yes, I thought, or else the poet addresses an unidentified second person about the cloudy difficulties of his or her relationship with that second person, or yet a third (also unidentified). I, too, disliked the verse Galvin attacked, especially for its evident premise: that a Poet, by assuming that title, could automatically lay claim to an interesting inner life. Surely, I believed, an "I" was interesting only if proved to be, which meant among other things that he or she must cogently reveal an identity in the writing itself. My recourse was rash. Goaded by my friends and collaborators Jay Parini and Robin Barone, I founded a magazine, the New England Review. Its poetry, we vowed, would operate from more accessible premises. "Pronouns are not people"-I recall my cautionary dictum on certain early rejections, one that unquestionably smacked of the tyro's glibness, but whose gist I still approve. Not that all seventies poets "mumbled" in the way Galvin had mocked. Some relied on image, whether deep or shallow, plain or surreal. And yet these writers, too, seemed often to exclude me from their work's deeper resonances-just as I was expecting some authorial commitment, a poet would turn to notice, say, a pigeon carrying a snip of someone's necktie through a raincloud, or whatever. Subject matter, so to speak, never quite came out in public. +++++++++++++++ I've recently wondered why-having once stumped so for narrative- I want now, both as writer and critic, to move on. It isn't only that I'd avoid repeating Edmund Wilson's error, as the more doctrinaire exponents of the New Narrative may be doing; more important, my inclination to narrative was always of greater moment to me than story line itself. If it served to brake my own narcissism (as pronounced as anyone's), it also provided a more positive, and more intriguing impulse: narrative opened my poems up to rhetoric, by which I, like Jonathan Holden in his Rhetoric of the Contemporary Lyric, mean the language of persuasion-and hence of argument, of testimony, even of the abstraction that Ezra the Ur-Imagist warned us to go in fear of. (I speak of immediately recognizable stuff, not of the rhetorical gestures that I think all good poems contain.) But why was rhetoric, so understood, a goal at all? Having as editor and writer not only lectured but also visited many a "workshop," I had noticed, in addition to (and continuous with) "mumbling," a kind of anti-rhetorical rhetoric among participants: "Show, Don't Tell." Over and over I heard it; and at length I bridled, thankful that most canonical poets had never heeded such an injunction. +++++++++++++++ In any event, I suspect that every access to authoritative point of view will lead, as each has with Keats, into considerations of voice. And yet voice can be established, too, in countless ways: by the things or images a poem talks about ("To Autumn"); by its grammar or syntax; by exploitation of structure ("Ode on a Grecian Urn" could be studied from this angle and all the others), including responses, obedient or rebellious, to received formal structures (like the sonnet, with its promise of high seriousness, the villanelle, which implies obsession, or the couplet, boding a yen for aphorism), and so on. But vocal authority, however accomplished, is essential. Pronouns are not people. If, having composed a draft of a lyric, we ask ourselves "Who says so?" we must have a more compelling answer than naked "I." +++++++++++++++ I've disemboweled the essay, I'm afraid--the core of which is concerned with some close reading of Keats--but perhaps these excerpts will spark some further reflection. David Graham ----------------------------------------- >> person by an 'I' in not always easy to distinguish from the writer, the >> kind of poem most commonly written today," and this is the underlying >> thesis: >> >> For a poem to be convincing, the primary task of the writer is to >> construct a speaker whose company is worth keeping, who >> exhibits certain virtues that win the reader's sympathetic attention. >> > >Ben - > >That's fine, but there's a corollary; the primary task of the reader is to >hold ingratiating speakers of poems at bay until it can be determined just >what these speakers are up to, and whether it's safe to sing along. > >Jordan > __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From jdavis Wed May 16 14:12:51 2001 From: jdavis (Jordan Davis) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 14:12:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] spontaneity under laws / laws only acts of social magic In-Reply-To: <3B02A4E0.35F978CA@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 May 2001, chris wrote: > Really Jordan? Yep. I'm skeptical that there are ideal readers out there who'll give an even break to every text coming down the pike. That doesn't mean we have to have non-stop guerrilla poetry wars, of course. Nor does it mean that every poem has to be contaminated (your word) by admixture of sincerity and irony. Maybe it's the Bourdieu I'm using to screen out my fellow passengers on the A train, but I thought I was just recasting "The price of freedom is eternal et cetera." Maybe you're objecting to the social aspects of this, maybe you're non-plussed by the tentativity of it. Who can tell. As for the safety part, I know I have different feelings about singing along with, say, "No Fun," "In Bloom", and "Jeremy." [Forgive me for substituting punk-ish music for poetry in this discussion. I'd give three examples from contemporary poetry if I thought there was enough of a common horizon for my (anybody's) examples. Does it take nerve to call a Pearl Jam a Pearl Jam, wrt to the poetry scene?] Jordan From aprentiss Wed May 16 14:17:08 2001 From: aprentiss (Amber Prentiss) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 14:17:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] synthetic good guy Message-ID: I'm confused. I'll try to distill this into what I think this argument says, so hold on: 'I' poems often derail themselves, and the reader is left floundering with no idea who this 'I' is or what part of the story you're in for this nebulous speaker who never explains why this particular moment is supposed to be interesting. This is annoying. Got that part. Then there's the part about "Show, not tell." I always took this to say "Let the reader figure it out," not "Don't tell any stories." Use better images and all that. But in this sense, he seems to say that people have used that to keep a poem from showing any opinions. I think. Sorta got that part. Then, there's the whole argument thing. Who (poet, speaker?) is supposed to be arguing what (I'm a nice guy; eat your veggies; drunks have lots of fun) for whom? I'm confused. Any help? -Amber -----Original Message----- From: David Graham To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 5/16/2001 1:02 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] synthetic good guy >Ben - > >That's fine, but there's a corollary; the primary task of the reader is to >hold ingratiating speakers of poems at bay until it can be determined just >what these speakers are up to, and whether it's safe to sing along. > >Jordan > Jordan Davis's point is elaborated and complicated in a lovely essay by Sydney Lea, "Making A Case: Or, 'Where Are You Coming From?' ". Available in the Pack/Parini anthology *Writers On Writing* as well as in a certain forthcoming essay anthology on autobiographical poetics that I have plugged here too many times already. . . . Lea is a long-time advocate of Jonathan Holden's rhetorical brand of criticism, as mentioned by Edward Byrne. In his "Making A Case" essay he particularly speaks up for the poet's right to argue, to tell and not just show. And he recognizes that even in a meditative poem, a poet is presenting a speaker whose authority we are right to interrogate. Here are a few excerpts from Lea's essay: +++++++++++++++ In the late seventies, I read an essay by Brendan Galvin on poems he called "Mumblings" (in Ploughshares, 1978). In such poems, Galvin says, an unidentified first person "tries to tell the reader how he ought to feel about the nonspecific predicament of an often unspecified person." Yes, I thought, or else the poet addresses an unidentified second person about the cloudy difficulties of his or her relationship with that second person, or yet a third (also unidentified). I, too, disliked the verse Galvin attacked, especially for its evident premise: that a Poet, by assuming that title, could automatically lay claim to an interesting inner life. Surely, I believed, an "I" was interesting only if proved to be, which meant among other things that he or she must cogently reveal an identity in the writing itself. My recourse was rash. Goaded by my friends and collaborators Jay Parini and Robin Barone, I founded a magazine, the New England Review. Its poetry, we vowed, would operate from more accessible premises. "Pronouns are not people"-I recall my cautionary dictum on certain early rejections, one that unquestionably smacked of the tyro's glibness, but whose gist I still approve. Not that all seventies poets "mumbled" in the way Galvin had mocked. Some relied on image, whether deep or shallow, plain or surreal. And yet these writers, too, seemed often to exclude me from their work's deeper resonances-just as I was expecting some authorial commitment, a poet would turn to notice, say, a pigeon carrying a snip of someone's necktie through a raincloud, or whatever. Subject matter, so to speak, never quite came out in public. +++++++++++++++ I've recently wondered why-having once stumped so for narrative- I want now, both as writer and critic, to move on. It isn't only that I'd avoid repeating Edmund Wilson's error, as the more doctrinaire exponents of the New Narrative may be doing; more important, my inclination to narrative was always of greater moment to me than story line itself. If it served to brake my own narcissism (as pronounced as anyone's), it also provided a more positive, and more intriguing impulse: narrative opened my poems up to rhetoric, by which I, like Jonathan Holden in his Rhetoric of the Contemporary Lyric, mean the language of persuasion-and hence of argument, of testimony, even of the abstraction that Ezra the Ur-Imagist warned us to go in fear of. (I speak of immediately recognizable stuff, not of the rhetorical gestures that I think all good poems contain.) But why was rhetoric, so understood, a goal at all? Having as editor and writer not only lectured but also visited many a "workshop," I had noticed, in addition to (and continuous with) "mumbling," a kind of anti-rhetorical rhetoric among participants: "Show, Don't Tell." Over and over I heard it; and at length I bridled, thankful that most canonical poets had never heeded such an injunction. +++++++++++++++ In any event, I suspect that every access to authoritative point of view will lead, as each has with Keats, into considerations of voice. And yet voice can be established, too, in countless ways: by the things or images a poem talks about ("To Autumn"); by its grammar or syntax; by exploitation of structure ("Ode on a Grecian Urn" could be studied from this angle and all the others), including responses, obedient or rebellious, to received formal structures (like the sonnet, with its promise of high seriousness, the villanelle, which implies obsession, or the couplet, boding a yen for aphorism), and so on. But vocal authority, however accomplished, is essential. Pronouns are not people. If, having composed a draft of a lyric, we ask ourselves "Who says so?" we must have a more compelling answer than naked "I." +++++++++++++++ I've disemboweled the essay, I'm afraid--the core of which is concerned with some close reading of Keats--but perhaps these excerpts will spark some further reflection. David Graham ----------------------------------------- >> person by an 'I' in not always easy to distinguish from the writer, the >> kind of poem most commonly written today," and this is the underlying >> thesis: >> >> For a poem to be convincing, the primary task of the writer is to >> construct a speaker whose company is worth keeping, who >> exhibits certain virtues that win the reader's sympathetic attention. >> > >Ben - > >That's fine, but there's a corollary; the primary task of the reader is to >hold ingratiating speakers of poems at bay until it can be determined just >what these speakers are up to, and whether it's safe to sing along. > >Jordan > __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From eselinge Wed May 16 15:03:33 2001 From: eselinge (Eric Selinger) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 14:03:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Multiculti Poetry Message-ID: Thanks to everyone for your suggestions about texts for my multi-cultural poetry class. In the end, with the book order deadline already past, I've simply copped out: I'm teaching the class as a multi-culti LITERATURE class, which is actually what most students are expecting. We'll have some drama (Angels in America, both parts), we'll have some fiction, and we'll have a nice long poetry unit walking through the history of African American poetry, using the Michael Harper Vintage Book thereof, plus some handouts. (More Hayden, some Mullen--supplementary readings in prose by some of the other poets.) Not as ambitious a course as I'd planned, but hey, it's summer school. EMS From cstroffo Wed May 16 15:19:07 2001 From: cstroffo (chris stroffolino) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 15:19:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] spontaneity under laws / laws only acts of social magic References: Message-ID: <3B02D2AC.5D775BE8@earthlink.net> Jordan-- I guess I just objected to "primary task," to me there's--in reading a a kind of (unwilled) ceding of authority to the poem that happens first and then, after my pre-existing sense of self has been exploded by what I read (even if I felt I totally "agree" with it), then, I may be compelled to analyze either what the speaker is "up to" or i may be just "sing along" (this is not just the difference between writing a "review" or a "close reading" on one hand and writing my own poem on the other). But I don't want to be dogmatic about it---obvously, sometimes I do find I "keep at bay" certain poems or certain speakers, and initially approach them skeptically, and in these cases the process may involve a triumph over such skepticism. Yet other times, the skepticism comes second, after the mesh-blur of identities that may occur to a porous one such as sometimes-I, like the riddle "when is a reaction not a reaction?" (when it's a reaction against reaction?) So, which of the three do you prefer to sing along (or shoot your gun) to? Ben - > > That's fine, but there's a corollary; the primary task of the reader is to > hold ingratiating speakers of poems at bay until it can be determined just > what these speakers are up to, and whether it's safe to sing along. > > Jordan > > ___________________ Jordan Davis wrote: > On Wed, 16 May 2001, chris wrote: > > > Really Jordan? > > Yep. I'm skeptical that there are ideal readers out there who'll give an > even break to every text coming down the pike. That doesn't mean we have > to have non-stop guerrilla poetry wars, of course. Nor does it mean that > every poem has to be contaminated (your word) by admixture of sincerity > and irony. Maybe it's the Bourdieu I'm using to screen out my fellow > passengers on the A train, but I thought I was just recasting "The price > of freedom is eternal et cetera." > > Maybe you're objecting to the social aspects of this, maybe you're > non-plussed by the tentativity of it. Who can tell. As for the safety > part, I know I have different feelings about singing along with, say, "No > Fun," "In Bloom", and "Jeremy." [Forgive me for substituting punk-ish > music for poetry in this discussion. I'd give three examples from > contemporary poetry if I thought there was enough of a common horizon for > my (anybody's) examples. Does it take nerve to call a Pearl Jam a Pearl > Jam, wrt to the poetry scene?] > > Jordan > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards Wed May 16 18:11:16 2001 From: tadrichards (theoldmole) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 18:11:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] synthetic good guy References: <3B02A4E0.35F978CA@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000b01c0de55$21600060$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Safety's not a bad thing, within bounds (uh-oh, tautology creeping in). We look for art to take us into danger, to take us places we haven't been, and we look for a guide that we can trust. Someone who doesn't know about anything except his own feelings isn't going to take us anywhere interesting. Someone who can use the first person as one of the portals to the unknown may well be worth spending some time with. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "chris stroffolino" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 12:03 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] synthetic good guy > Really Jordan? What is this fear of being contaminated by ingratiating speakers? > > What is this desire for "safety" as primary when reading another? > And if one only sings along when one feels safe, won't we have the kind > of synthetic, boring (think 'N Synch) songs that make the first Bush years > seem liberal by comparison? > > Chris > > Jordan Davis wrote: > > > > person by an 'I' in not always easy to distinguish from the writer, the > > > kind of poem most commonly written today," and this is the underlying > > > thesis: > > > > > > For a poem to be convincing, the primary task of the writer is to > > > construct a speaker whose company is worth keeping, who > > > exhibits certain virtues that win the reader's sympathetic attention. > > > > > > > Ben - > > > > That's fine, but there's a corollary; the primary task of the reader is to > > hold ingratiating speakers of poems at bay until it can be determined just > > what these speakers are up to, and whether it's safe to sing along. > > > > Jordan > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards Thu May 17 10:58:19 2001 From: tadrichards (theoldmole) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 10:58:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fine isolated verisimilitudes References: <3B02A4E0.35F978CA@earthlink.net> <000b01c0de55$21600060$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <001601c0dee2$907473e0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> I'd always assumed that Keats was praising Coleridge for having the courage to let go of a fine isolated verisimilitude. It always seemed to me a crucially important thing for a poet to be able to do -- to refuse to settle for something good isolation, when the full direction of the poem (Hugo's real subject vs triggering subject) may not be clear yet. I took this as an extension of Keats' negative capability -- the ability to be in doubt or uncertainty, to not make up one's mind too soon. Now I discover that most scholars take the opposite view - that Keats was extolling the fine isolated verisimilitude and criticizing Coleridge for letting it go. I continue to admire the courage involved in letting go of a fine isolated verisimilitude. But have I really been so wrong all these years? From grahamd Thu May 17 14:26:07 2001 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 13:26:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pub Plug Message-ID: Just published: *The Breath of Parted Lips: Voices from the Robert Frost Place* (CavanKerry Press). This anthology collects work from writers who have been poets-in-residence at the Frost Place in Franconia, NH over the past 20-plus summers. Introduction by Donald Hall, and notes on contributors by Donald Sheehan. Contributors include Mary Ruefle, Sue Ellen Thompson, Pattiann Rogers, Robert Hass, William Matthews, Stanley Plumly, Sharon Bryan, Sherod Santos, Dennis Johnson, Cleopatra Mathis, Katha Pollit, Kathy Fagan, Mary Jo Salter, Jeffrey Skinner, and myself. The book is available from Amazon, among other places: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0967885620/qid%3D990122439/103-0864517-64 10255 David Graham __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From slundqu Thu May 17 15:43:11 2001 From: slundqu (Sara Lundquist) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 15:43:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman in poetry Message-ID: <003201c0df09$a51f5e50$a050b783@uhe.utoledo.edu> Dear List: I am looking for poems (modern or contemporary) which refer to Walt Whitman by name (or at least where it's clear he or his work is being referred to). So far I have Creeley, Duncan, Ginsberg, Hughes, Olds, Neruda, Pound, Roethke. Backchannel me? Thanks: Sara Lundquist Associate Professor English Department University of Toledo Toledo, OH 43606 (419) 530-2506 Fax: (419) 530-4440 sara_lundquist at utoledo.edu From paul.lake Thu May 17 04:37:07 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 03:37:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman in poetry In-Reply-To: <003201c0df09$a51f5e50$a050b783@uhe.utoledo.edu> Message-ID: on 5/17/01 2:43 PM, Sara Lundquist at slundqu at uoft02.utoledo.edu wrote: > Dear List: > I am looking for poems (modern or contemporary) which refer to Walt Whitman > by name (or at least where it's clear he or his work is being referred to). > So far I have Creeley, Duncan, Ginsberg, Hughes, Olds, Neruda, Pound, > Roethke. Backchannel me? > Thanks: > Sara Lundquist > Associate Professor > English Department > University of Toledo > Toledo, OH 43606 > (419) 530-2506 > Fax: (419) 530-4440 > sara_lundquist at utoledo.edu > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > There's a poem by Stevens, whose title eludes me. Easy to find, though. Someone will provide title. Paul Lake From paul.lake Thu May 17 04:54:59 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 03:54:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman, Stevens Message-ID: The title just came to me. Stevens talks about Whitman in his infamously titled "Like Decorations in a Nigger Cemetery." Paul Lake From grahamd Thu May 17 17:27:21 2001 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 16:27:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman in poetry In-Reply-To: <003201c0df09$a51f5e50$a050b783@uhe.utoledo.edu> Message-ID: This may be of more general interest, so I'm not back channeling. A wonderful anthology is *Walt Whitman : The Measure of His Song*, ed. Jim Perlman, Ed Folsom, Dan Campion (Holy Cow Press, 1999). Here's the blurb from Amazon: First published to wide critical acclaim in 1981, this revised and expanded monumental anthology charts the ongoing American and international response to the legacy of the seminal poet Walt Whitman (1819-1892). Beginning with Ralph Waldo Emerson's famous 1855 letter ("I greet you at the beginning of a great career..."), this new edition contains responses from Thoreau, Pound, Lawrence, Neruda, Borges, Ginsberg, Jordan, Duncan, Le Sueur, Rich, Snyder and Alexie, among many others. "I know of no more convincing proof of Walt Whitman's impact upon the poetic mind (both at home and abroad) than this collection of tributes by poets -- in prose and verse" -- Gay Wilson Allen, THE SOLITARY SINGER. Includes 17 black & white photos. ___________________ I own the first edition, which is lovely. Poems included by David Ignatow, Jonathan Williams, Hart Crane, Garcia Lorca, Edwin Markham, John Berryman, Denise Levertov, Derek Walcott, Charles Olson, Judith Moffett, Thomas McGrath, Larry Levis, & others. A very fine bibliography as well. David Graham >Dear List: >I am looking for poems (modern or contemporary) which refer to Walt Whitman >by name (or at least where it's clear he or his work is being referred to). >So far I have Creeley, Duncan, Ginsberg, Hughes, Olds, Neruda, Pound, >Roethke. Backchannel me? >Thanks: >Sara Lundquist __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From MillB Thu May 17 17:37:13 2001 From: MillB (MillB at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 17:37:13 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman in poetry Message-ID: Greetings: Ok--so now I'm hooked and stumped. . .like a television jungle for laundry soap that you cannot get rid of. . .since I read the first of this posting thread. . .my mind's been on, "I think of you, tonight, Walt Whitman. .. or "My thoughts turn to you, Walt Whitman." Will someone please pu me out of my misery and. . .name the poem that has that line in it??? I just KNOW it's something obvious that II'll kick myself about later. . . Argh. Mill From grahamd Thu May 17 17:45:05 2001 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 16:45:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman in poetry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A SUPERMARKET IN CALIFORNIA --Allen Ginsberg What thoughts I have of you tonight, Walt Whit- man, for I walked down the sidestreets under the trees with a headache self-conscious looking at the full moon. In my hungry fatigue, and shopping for images, I went into the neon fruit supermarket, dreaming of your enumerations! What peaches and what penumbras! Whole fam- ilies shopping at night! Aisles full of husbands! Wives in the avocados, babies in the tomatoes!--and you, Garcia Lorca, what were you doing down by the watermelons? I saw you, Walt Whitman, childless, lonely old grubber, poking among the meats in the refrigerator and eyeing the grocery boys. I heard you asking questions of each: Who killed the pork chops? What price bananas? Are you my Angel? I wandered in and out of the brilliant stacks of cans following you, and followed in my imagination by the store detective. We strode down the open corridors together in our solitary fancy tasting artichokes, possessing every frozen delicacy, and never passing the cashier. Where are we going, Walt Whitman? The doors close in an hour. Which way does your beard point tonight? (I touch your book and dream of our odyssey in the supermarket and feel absurd.) Will we walk all night through solitary streets? The trees add shade to shade, lights out in the houses, we'll both be lonely. Will we stroll dreaming ofthe lost America of love past blue automobiles in driveways, home to our silent cottage? Ah, dear father, graybeard, lonely old courage- teacher, what America did you have when Charon quit poling his ferry and you got out on a smoking bank and stood watching the boat disappear on the black waters of Lethe? Berkeley 1955 >Greetings: > >Ok--so now I'm hooked and stumped. . .like a television jungle for laundry >soap that you cannot get rid of. . .since I read the first of this posting >thread. . .my mind's been on, "I think of you, tonight, Walt Whitman. .. or >"My thoughts turn to you, Walt Whitman." Will someone please pu me out of my >misery and. . .name the poem that has that line in it??? > >I just KNOW it's something obvious that II'll kick myself about later. . . > >Argh. > >Mill >_______________________________________________ __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From Jandhodge Thu May 17 20:00:06 2001 From: Jandhodge (Jandhodge at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 20:00:06 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman in poetry Message-ID: <18.cfd25c3.2835c006@aol.com> << I am looking for poems (modern or contemporary) which refer to Walt Whitman by name (or at least where it's clear he or his work is being referred to). >> The title poem in Philip Dacey's wonderfully imaginative poetic study of G. M. Hopkins, "Gerard Manley Hopkins Meets Walt Whitman in Heaven and Other Poems" [Penmaen Press, 1986]. Jan From JforJames Fri May 18 09:24:56 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 09:24:56 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Pattiann Rogers poem Message-ID: THE COMPASSION OF THE IRIS Compassion, if it could be seen, might look Like an early blossom of iris, Something like an uplands flower on a wooded Morning, five purple suns visible on its petals As five points of a shallow dawn. If compassion appeared as an iris It would be possible to trace the actual outline Of its arched and crested edges, to describe The crucial motivation coming at the juncture Of its yellow-ridged sepals, to examine The significance in the structure of white veins Covering its calyx, to discover, by touch, The hidden meat of the bulb from which the origin Of its concept must first have arisen. And maybe the benevolence inherent to ordinary Purple-streaked flowers could be understood As they cover, without intrusion, the lowest rim Of evening, when they draw their violet lines As carefully as dusk draws time above the dusty floor Of the pine barrens. Corms and stems, Lobes and basal clusters might be Recognized as the subtlest, most crucial Tenderness of the soil. And it might be possible to imagine how the bond Creating the central fact of compassion is exactly The same fact binding a gene of violet In the ovary of the iris, how compassion Possesses the same grip on its own form As the perfumed rhizome maintains On the tight molecule of its scent. And what astonishing union is it that takes place On the day when compassion is offered as a gift In the form of spring iris gathered from the field? One might wonder if the iris Should be studied meticulously in order to reveal The intricacies of compassion, Or whether one should act compassionately In order to fully perceive the peculiarities Of that extraordinary blue-violet flower. PATTIANN ROGERS ------------------------ Copyright (c) 2001 Pattiann Rogers. From "Song of the World Becoming: New and Collected Poems, 1981-2001, just published by Milkweed Editions (http://www.milkweed.org). To read more poems by Pattiann Rogers, visit http://www.milkweed.org/3_3_7.html From JforJames Fri May 18 09:32:22 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 09:32:22 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcing Jacket # 13 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 12:18:11 -0700 From: John Tranter Subject: Announcing Jacket # 13 The current issue of Jacket ( # 13 ) is now complete, and awaits your=20 perusal, at http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/jacket13/ THIS ISSUE of Jacket is a co-production with New American Writing magazine,= =20 and as well as appearing on the Internet as Jacket 13, it is published in=20 print form as New American Writing number 19, clocking in at 186 pages. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The featured poet in this special Jacket co-production issue is Clark=20 Coolidge: Clark Coolidge: ten poems Tom Orange: An Interview with Clark Coolidge Tom Orange: Arrangement and Density: A Context for Early Clark Coolidge Alan Halsey: From a Diary of Reading Clark Coolidge Michael Gizzi: XIV: In the Namewakes (for Clark Coolidge) As well as Fiction: Linh Dinh: Our Newlyweds Journal: Mark McMorris: Journals from The Caf=E9 at Light (A Selection) And poems from thirty-five contributors: Jeanne Marie Beaumont: Skill (A.M.) Frances Padorr Brent: Porcelain Blue Boat Leonard Brink: A.Q. Avery Burns: From =C6thers Barbara Campbell: Parable for a Marriage Long Sought Diane Di Prima: Sonnet Sequence Jocelyn Emerson: The Conflagration Clayton Eshleman on Henry Darger Phillip Foss: Strung Drew Gardner: From Water Table Karen Garthe: Victorian Reading Bob Harrison: Rock Hard Pins Charles O. Hartman: From Tambourine Kelly Holt: From Study for the Other Paul Hoover: Sixteen Jackies Michael Ives: two poems Susen James: Filter Devin Johnston: two poems John Kinsella: Fog and Linnets Philip Kobylarz: Preen John Latta: two poems Lisa Lubasch: Vicinities Maureen McLane: two poems M=F6ng-Lan: Three-Auricled Heart Geoffrey O=92Brien: Impressions: 1929 Peter O=92Leary: With More Passionate Flying Greg Purcell: =93Let Me Break One Off-Some and Enter Up-In to This Joint...= =94 Martha Ronk: three poems Lisa Samuels: two poems Spencer Selby: Bargain Kerri Sonnenberg: three poems Cole Swensen: four poems Barbara Tomash: Nude in the Bath Terence Winch: two poems Andrew Zawacki: From Masquerade >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Founded in 1986, New American Writing is a literary magazine emphasizing=20 contemporary American poetry. Edited by Paul Hoover, poet and editor of=20 "Postmodern American Poetry" (W. W. Norton, 1994), and Maxine Chernoff,=20 poet and author of the works of fiction "Bop" and "American Heaven", it=20 appears once a year in early June from 369 Molino Avenue, Mill Valley CA=20 94941, USA. You can visit Maxine Chernoff's homepage at=20 http://www.previewport.com/Home/chernoff.html Contributors have included John Ashbery, Robert Creeley, Charles Simic,=20 Jorie Graham, Denise Levertov, Hilda Morley, August Kleinzahler, Ann=20 Lauterbach, Ned Rorem, Wanda Coleman, Nathaniel Mackey, Barbara Guest,=20 Marjorie Perloff, Lyn Hejinian, and Charles Bernstein, among others. In=20 1988 the magazine was named one of the United States' ten outstanding=20 literary magazines by Coordinating Council of Literary Magazines. Special issues of the magazine include a supplement of Australian poetry=20 edited by John Tranter (No. 4), an issue on Censorship and the Arts (No.=20 5), a supplement of innovative poetry from Great Britain edited by Richard= =20 Caddel, and a supplement of Brazilian poetry edited by Regis Bonvicino (No.= =20 18). All back issues of the magazine are in print with the exception of No.= =20 4 and can be ordered from the address above. -- John Tranter Editor, Jacket magazine From JforJames Fri May 18 09:56:31 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 09:56:31 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Slope 10 Message-ID: <21.be8a8c2.2836840f@aol.com> Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 07:32:40 +1000 From: masthead at ONTHE.NET.AU Subject: Slope 10 Now online - http://www.slope/org Poetry Contemporary Croatian poetry Creative criticism And lots of pretty pictures From jdavis Fri May 18 16:34:46 2001 From: jdavis (Jordan Davis) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 16:34:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] don't know what it means In-Reply-To: <3B02D2AC.5D775BE8@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > and then, after my pre-existing sense of self has been exploded > by what I read (even if I felt I totally "agree" with it), then, I may be > compelled to analyze either what the speaker is "up to" or i may (I'm startled by how often poems *reinforce* my pre-existing sense of self ((ok, selves)), especially the ones that I could just as well describe as having *blown my mind.) (To put it another way, take Stevens's poem "Gubbinal." I think he's taking your side here, in that he keeps renaming the sun ((fiery seed, strange flower)) in an attempt to rebut a dreary second person for whom the world is ugly and the people are sad. But would *you* want to be called a different name every time someone addressed described or mentioned you?) > be just "sing along" (this is not just the difference between writing > a "review" or a "close reading" on one hand and writing my own poem > on the other). But I don't want to be dogmatic about it---obvously, > sometimes I do find I "keep at bay" certain poems or certain speakers, > and initially approach them skeptically, and in these cases the process > may involve a triumph over such skepticism. Yet other times, the skepticism (OK - to equivocate - I was proposing a readerly corollary to Dennis's words to writers about putting forward a plausibly amiable voice. I know *you* know Ron Padgett's and David Shapiro's responses to the idea of "finding your voice" and all the dubious authenticity that gets smuggled into the discussion there ((and that Ron uses even as he makes fun of using it - judo, anyone?)). You know what I'm talking about - the crafted and sensitive ((or surly)) persona-projection that gets in the way of otherwise pretty good poems.) > comes second, after the mesh-blur of identities that may occur to a porous > one such as sometimes-I, > like the riddle "when is a reaction not a reaction?" > (when it's a reaction against reaction?) > > So, which of the three do you prefer to sing along (or shoot your gun) to? (Johnny Rotten in San Francisco. But Qurdt and Iggy are fun too, no?) (Jordan, an ((American)) poet) From MillB Fri May 18 17:35:22 2001 From: MillB (MillB at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 17:35:22 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Poets.org Update #16 Message-ID: <50.15f45348.2836ef9a@aol.com> FYI Mill -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: India Amos Subject: Poets.org Update #16 Date: Fri, 18-May-2001 21:19:39 GMT Size: 4367 URL: From JforJames Fri May 18 20:51:45 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 20:51:45 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Slope 10 Message-ID: Double oops... Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 09:18:26 +1000 From: masthead at ONTHE.NET.AU Subject: Re: Slope 10 Oops - a mistake in the posted address for Slope: it should be http://www.slope.org How could I get that wrong? Sorry - A From grahamd Sun May 20 21:07:24 2001 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 20:07:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bitter Quiz Message-ID: Wondering if everyone but me has gone to the beach, there to recite "Sea Surface Full of Clouds" . . . . Perhaps it's time for a diversion. So, a quiz. Who can name the author of the following? (No cheating, now...) The Bitter World of Spring On a wet pavement the white sky recedes mottled black by the inverted pillars of the red elms, in perspective, that lift the tangled net of their desires hard into the falling rain. And brown smoke is driven down, running like water over the roof of the bridge- keeper's cubicle. And, as usual, the fight as to the nature of poetry --Shall the philosophers capture it?-- is on. And, casting an eye down into the water, there, announced by the silence of a white bush in flower, close under the bridge, the shad ascend, midway between the surface and the mud, and you can see their bodies red-finned in the dark water headed, unrelenting, upstream. __________________________________ Assuming you didn't already know this poem, points will be awarded for (a) identifying the author; (b) explaining how you knew; and (c) commenting on why you like/don't like the poem. David Graham __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From wasanthony Mon May 21 09:13:55 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 06:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Bitter Quiz In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010521131355.84853.qmail@web12106.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Graham wrote: > Wondering if everyone but me has gone to the beach, there to recite > "Sea > Surface Full of Clouds" . . . . > > Perhaps it's time for a diversion. So, a quiz. Who can name the > author of > the following? (No cheating, now...) > > > The Bitter World of Spring > > On a wet pavement the white sky recedes > mottled black by the inverted > pillars of the red elms, > in perspective, that lift the tangled > > net of their desires hard into > the falling rain. And brown smoke > is driven down, running like > water over the roof of the bridge- > > keeper's cubicle. And, as usual, > the fight as to the nature of poetry > --Shall the philosophers capture it?-- > is on. And, casting an eye > > down into the water, there, announced > by the silence of a white > bush in flower, close > under the bridge, the shad ascend, > > midway between the surface and the mud, > and you can see their bodies > red-finned in the dark > water headed, unrelenting, upstream. > __________________________________ > > Assuming you didn't already know this poem, points will be awarded > for (a) > identifying the author; William Carlos Williams? > (b) explaining how you knew; It's 6 a.m. and so I asked Google. > and (c) > commenting on > why you like/don't like the poem. Does nothing for me, maybe because it's 6 a.m., but I do acknowledge the craft. I have trouble right away in the first and second stanzas, thanks to the elms and their tangled net of desires. Then I have a problem with the poet taking over. Or is it the poet? Who is "casting an eye"? Once I resolve that shad cannot cast an eye on themselves ascending, I kind of warm to that last cold image. Surely someone can articulate a more comprehensive explanation. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From JforJames Mon May 21 10:01:47 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 10:01:47 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark Strand poem Message-ID: <60.e93448d.283a79cb@aol.com> A five-part poem by Mark Strand from BLIZZARD OF ONE "Five Dogs" 1 I, the dog they call Spot, was about to sing. Autumn Had come, the walks were freckled with leaves, and a tarnished Moonlit emptiness crept over the valley floor. I wanted to climb the poets' hill before the winter settled in; I wanted to praise the soul. My neighbor told me Not to waste my time. Already the frost had deepened And the north wind, trailing the whip of its own scream, Pressed against the house. "A dog's sublimity is never news," He said, "what's another poet in the end?" And I stood in the midnight valley, watching the great starfields Flash and flower in the wished-for reaches of heaven. That's when I, the dog they call Spot, began to sing. 2 Now that the great dog I worshipped for years Has become none other than myself, I can look within And bark, and I can look at the mountains down the street And bark at them as well. I am an eye that sees itself Look back, a nose that tracks the scent of shadows As they fall, an ear that picks up sounds Before they're born. I am the last of the platinum Retrievers, the end of a gorgeous line. But there's no comfort being who I am. I roam around and ponder fate's abolishments Until my eyes are filled with tears and I say to myself, "Oh Rex, Forget. Forget. The stars are out. The marble moon slides by." 3 Most of my kind believe that Earth Is the only planet not covered with hair. So be it, I say, let tragedy strike, let the story of everything End today, then let it begin again tomorrow. I no longer care. I no longer wait in front of the blistered, antique mirror, Hoping a shape or a self will rise, and step From Rsgwynn1 Mon May 21 10:11:49 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 10:11:49 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Wallace Stevens-Anecdote of the Jar Message-ID: <9f.15a9a704.283a7c25@cs.com> In a message dated 5/14/2001 10:28:52 AM Central Daylight Time, bckice at loyno.edu writes: > Why does Stevens want to put down a jar > that will only ruin things in the end? Maybe if I knew more about him I > could > have a better understanding of what Tennesse has to do with it. > Stevens used to travel quite a bit in the insurance business, and I've always suspected this poem is a comical account of a trip to a bootlegger. Can't prove it, of course. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Mon May 21 10:16:09 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 10:16:09 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Bi-polar Emily? Message-ID: In a message dated 5/14/2001 3:55:56 PM Central Daylight Time, Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu writes: > Also, I remember a number of years back there was an article in _The > New York Times_ suggesting Emily's reclusiveness was a result of poor > eyesight, a condition called Wall-Eye. > > In my files I have a copy of a conference paper that claims that E. D. was a victim of child abuse. Might as well claim she was a victim of e.d. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Mon May 21 11:11:37 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 11:11:37 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman in poetry Message-ID: <20.16b8259d.283a8a29@cs.com> In a message dated 5/17/2001 4:38:21 PM Central Daylight Time, MillB at aol.com writes: > Ok--so now I'm hooked and stumped. . .like a television jungle for laundry > soap that you cannot get rid of. . .since I read the first of this posting > thread. . .my mind's been on, "I think of you, tonight, Walt Whitman. .. or > "My thoughts turn to you, Walt Whitman." Will someone please pu me out of > my > misery and. . .name the poem that has that line in it??? > > I just KNOW it's something obvious that II'll kick myself about later. . . > It's Louis Simpson's poem, isn't it? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Mon May 21 11:12:33 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 11:12:33 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman in poetry Message-ID: <8b.6de2074.283a8a61@cs.com> In a message dated 5/17/2001 4:38:21 PM Central Daylight Time, MillB at aol.com writes: > Ok--so now I'm hooked and stumped. . .like a television jungle for laundry > soap that you cannot get rid of. . .since I read the first of this posting > thread. . .my mind's been on, "I think of you, tonight, Walt Whitman. .. or > "My thoughts turn to you, Walt Whitman." Will someone please pu me out of > my > misery and. . .name the poem that has that line in it??? > > I just KNOW it's something obvious that II'll kick myself about later. . . > > Argh. > > Oops. The Ginsberg poem. Simpson has one that's similar, "Walt Whitman on Bear Mountain." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Edward.Byrne Mon May 21 11:27:44 2001 From: Edward.Byrne (Edward Byrne) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 10:27:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark Strand poem In-Reply-To: <60.e93448d.283a79cb@aol.com> Message-ID: In addition to the readings at Knopf, I also suggest my review of Strand in the current issue of _Valparaiso Poetry Review_: http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/byrnereviewstrand.html --Edward Byrne >JforJames wrote: > A five-part poem by Mark Strand from BLIZZARD OF ONE > > > "Five Dogs" > > 1 > > I, the dog they call Spot, was about to sing. Autumn > Had come, the walks were freckled with leaves, and a tarnished > Moonlit emptiness crept over the valley floor. > I wanted to climb the poets' hill before the winter settled in; > I wanted to praise the soul. My neighbor told me > Not to waste my time. Already the frost had deepened > And the north wind, trailing the whip of its own scream, > Pressed against the house. "A dog's sublimity is never news," > He said, "what's another poet in the end?" > And I stood in the midnight valley, watching the great starfields > Flash and flower in the wished-for reaches of heaven. > That's when I, the dog they call Spot, began to sing. > > > 2 > > Now that the great dog I worshipped for years > Has become none other than myself, I can look within > And bark, and I can look at the mountains down the street > And bark at them as well. I am an eye that sees itself > Look back, a nose that tracks the scent of shadows > As they fall, an ear that picks up sounds > Before they're born. I am the last of the platinum > Retrievers, the end of a gorgeous line. > But there's no comfort being who I am. > I roam around and ponder fate's abolishments > Until my eyes are filled with tears and I say to myself, "Oh Rex, > Forget. Forget. The stars are out. The marble moon slides by." > > > 3 > > Most of my kind believe that Earth > Is the only planet not covered with hair. So be it, > I say, let tragedy strike, let the story of everything > End today, then let it begin again tomorrow. I no longer care. > I no longer wait in front of the blistered, antique mirror, > Hoping a shape or a self will rise, and step > From that misted surface and say: You there, > Come with me into the world of light and be whole, > For the love you thought had been dead a thousand years > Is back in town and asking for you. Oh no. > I say, I'm done with my kind. I live alone > On Walnut Lane, and will until the day I die. > > > 4 > > Before the tremendous dogs are unleashed, > Let's get the little ones inside, let's drag > The big bones onto the lawn and clean The Royal Dog Hotel. > Gypsy, my love, the end of an age has come. Already, > The howls of the great dogs practicing fills the air, > And look at that man on all fours dancing under > The moon's dumbfounded gaze, and look at that woman > Doing the same. The wave of the future has gotten > To them and they have responded with all they have: > A little step forward, a little step back. And they sway, > And their eyes are closed. O heavenly bodies. > O bodies of time. O golden bodies of lasting fire. > > > 5 > > All winter the weather came up with amazing results: > The streets and walks had turned to glass. The sky > Was a sheet of white. And here was a dog in a phone booth > Calling home. But nothing would ease his tiny heart. > For years the song of his body was all of his calling. Now > It was nothing. Those hymns to desire, songs of bliss > Would never return. The sky's copious indigo, > The yellow dust of sunlight after rain, were gone. > No one was home. The phone kept ringing. The curtains > Of sleep were about to be drawn, and darkness would pass > Into the world. And so, and so . . . goodbye all, goodbye dog. > > > > Copyright (c) 1999 by Mark Strand > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > More Mark Strand at http://www.knopfpoetry.com > > Read an essay by Mark Strand from his prose collection THE WEATHER OF > WORDS at http://www.knopfpoetry.com/studentcenter/essays/ > > Give us your feedback in the forum at > http://www.knopfpoetry.com/studentcenter/ > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------------------------------------------- Edward Byrne Department of English 322 Huegli Hall Valparaiso University Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/ Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/ Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 Fax: (219) 464-5511 -------------------------------------------------- From CobbCoStudioArts Mon May 21 12:41:31 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 09:41:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark Strand poem Message-ID: <20010521164131.279262744@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From JforJames Mon May 21 14:30:11 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 14:30:11 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Aldrich Poetry Competition Message-ID: <8c.6eca02b.283ab8b3@aol.com> Aldrich Poetry Competition For Immediate Release Press Contact: Aran Winterbottom 203-438-4519 x 3005 awinter at aldrichart.org Event: The Annual Aldrich Poetry Competition Deadline: Postmarked by Tuesday: July 31, 2000 Cost: $10 submittal fee The Annual Aldrich Poetry Competition Juror: Billy Collins Ridgefield, CT (April 2000): Stage A: Poetry & Spoken Word at The Aldrich Museum of Contemporary Art is sending out an area call to all poets for submissions to the 2001 Aldrich Poetry Competition. The juror for 2001's competition is award-winning poet Billy Collins. Two poets will be selected and are awarded an honorarium. Their works will also be published in The Aldrich's poetry chapbook series. A reading will take place in January 2002 (date to be announced). Poets can submit up to 15 poems. For a complete list of guidelines, send a SASE to Pamela Auchincloss, The Aldrich Poetry Competition, c/o AMCA, 258 Main St., Ridgefield, CT 06877 or visit the cultural programs page on the Museum's website www.aldrichart.org. Billy Collins is the author of six books of poetry including Picnic, Lightning (1997). Collins is also the recipient of numerous fellowships, including The National Endowment for the Arts and the Guggenheim Foundation. Currently, Collins is the poet-in-residence at Burren College of Art, Ireland and a professor of English at Lehman College (CUNY). Guidelines: Poets can submit up to 15 poems by Tuesday, July 31, 2001. All entries, which must include a SASE for notification, can be sent to Pamela Auchincloss, The Aldrich Poetry Competition, c/o AMCA, 258 Main Street, Ridgefield, CT 06877. The fee for submittal is $10. Please make all checks payable to The Aldrich Museum of Contemporary Art. Include coversheet with author and titles. Authors name should appear on the coversheet only. Please note that materials will not be returned. The Aldrich Museum of Contemporary Art is located in Ridgefield on Route 35. For directions and reservations, call the museum at (203) 438-4519. Regular Museum hours are Tuesday through Sunday, 12 noon to 5 PM; Friday, 12 noon to 8 PM. From adead_poet Tue May 22 03:01:52 2001 From: adead_poet (dead poet) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 02:01:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] biographical info Message-ID: Hello, I need some biographical information on some poets. I've looked on the internet, but I couldn't find what I was looking for, so I'm hoping one of you can help me. I need basic biographical information on David Lerner (1951-1997), Heather Brittain Bergstrom (no idea her birthdate), Henry Carlile (no idea birthdate), Robert Cooperman (no idea birthdate), Alice B. Fogel (no idea birthdate), Joey Froelich (no idea birthdate), and Mike Golden (no idea birthdate). As well as information on Mark Benyo, Cecil Boatswain, and Herby Ehinger, who are all incarcerated, and I cannot find birthdates or biographical info on any of them. Birth dates (and death dates if applicable) for: Fred Voss, Cathy Smith Bowers, Joyce Sutphen, Jim Chandler, Alan Kaufman, Judson Mitcham, Michael Lally, and Robert Phillips. Also are A.D. Winans, Harold Norse, and Hubert Selby, Jr. still alive? Thanks in advance for any help you can give (and of course, you can reply to me off list). jason _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From CobbCoStudioArts Tue May 22 07:15:44 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 04:15:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] doggerel Message-ID: <20010522111544.8872F36F9@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From wasanthony Tue May 22 08:53:00 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 05:53:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] biographical info In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010522125300.26340.qmail@web12107.mail.yahoo.com> --- dead poet wrote: > Hello, > > I need some biographical information on some poets. I've looked on > the > internet, but I couldn't find what I was looking for, so I'm hoping > one of > you can help me. > > I need basic biographical information on David Lerner (1951-1997), > Heather > Brittain Bergstrom (no idea her birthdate), Henry Carlile (no idea > birthdate), Robert Cooperman (no idea birthdate), Alice B. Fogel (no > idea > birthdate), Joey Froelich (no idea birthdate), and Mike Golden (no > idea > birthdate). As well as information on Mark Benyo, Cecil Boatswain, > and Herby > Ehinger, who are all incarcerated, and I cannot find birthdates or > biographical info on any of them. > > Birth dates (and death dates if applicable) for: Fred Voss, Cathy > Smith > Bowers, Joyce Sutphen, Jim Chandler, Alan Kaufman, Judson Mitcham, > Michael > Lally, and Robert Phillips. > > Also are A.D. Winans, Harold Norse, and Hubert Selby, Jr. still > alive? > > Thanks in advance for any help you can give (and of course, you can > reply to > me off list). > > jason Jason: This lead me on an interesting half-hour search, during which I stumbled upon some info I can use for a project of my own. But, here are some solid leads for several of the people mentioned above (just typing a name within quotation marks in Google works wonders!): David Lerner (1951-1997) Heather Brittain Bergstrom Henry Carlile Cecil Boatswain Michael Lally Robert Phillips Harold Norse Hubert Selby, Jr. Good luck. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From bateman Mon May 21 15:24:00 2001 From: bateman (bateman at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 15:24:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTimes.com Article: How Crit Finally Won Out Over Lit Message-ID: <20010521192400.B1D1658A4D@email5.lga2.nytimes.com> This article from NYTimes.com has been sent to you by bateman at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca. Interesting article. /-------------------- advertisement -----------------------\ Let NYTimes.com Come to You Sign up for one of our weekly e-mails and the news will come directly to you. YOUR MONEY brings you a wealth of analysis and information about personal investing. CIRCUITS plugs you into the latest on personal technology. TRAVEL DISPATCH offers you a jump on special travel deals and news. http://email.nytimes.com/email/email.jsp?eta5 \----------------------------------------------------------/ How Crit Finally Won Out Over Lit By SARAH BOXER W. W. Norton & Company, the maker of literary canons and the publisher of numerous anthologies, is about to release a self-deconstructing bombshell. http://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/19/arts/19NORT.html?ex=991473040&ei=1&en=7bef0c571f9c3d03 /-----------------------------------------------------------------\ Visit NYTimes.com for complete access to the most authoritative news coverage on the Web, updated throughout the day. Become a member today! It's free! http://www.nytimes.com?eta \-----------------------------------------------------------------/ HOW TO ADVERTISE --------------------------------- For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters or other creative advertising opportunities with The New York Times on the Web, please contact Alyson Racer at alyson at nytimes.com or visit our online media kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help at nytimes.com. Copyright 2001 The New York Times Company From tadrichards Tue May 22 09:32:58 2001 From: tadrichards (theoldmole) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 09:32:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] biographical info References: Message-ID: <001101c0e2c3$b8dc0160$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> A.D. Winans is still alive. Ye Olde Font Shoppe Press in Connecticut recently released a new collection of his, San Francisco Streets. Check it out at http://www.webcom.com/~yeolde/ Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "dead poet" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 3:01 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] biographical info > Hello, > > I need some biographical information on some poets. I've looked on the > internet, but I couldn't find what I was looking for, so I'm hoping one of > you can help me. > > I need basic biographical information on David Lerner (1951-1997), Heather > Brittain Bergstrom (no idea her birthdate), Henry Carlile (no idea > birthdate), Robert Cooperman (no idea birthdate), Alice B. Fogel (no idea > birthdate), Joey Froelich (no idea birthdate), and Mike Golden (no idea > birthdate). As well as information on Mark Benyo, Cecil Boatswain, and Herby > Ehinger, who are all incarcerated, and I cannot find birthdates or > biographical info on any of them. > > Birth dates (and death dates if applicable) for: Fred Voss, Cathy Smith > Bowers, Joyce Sutphen, Jim Chandler, Alan Kaufman, Judson Mitcham, Michael > Lally, and Robert Phillips. > > Also are A.D. Winans, Harold Norse, and Hubert Selby, Jr. still alive? > > Thanks in advance for any help you can give (and of course, you can reply to > me off list). > > jason > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From terran Tue May 22 12:33:52 2001 From: terran (shep) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 09:33:52 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] doggerel In-Reply-To: <20010522111544.8872F36F9@sitemail.everyone.net> References: <20010522111544.8872F36F9@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: Makes me think of the song "Old Shep" by Elvis. Do you know it? A real tear-jerker! shep From CobbCoStudioArts Tue May 22 14:51:24 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 11:51:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] doggerel Message-ID: <20010522185124.E9CC23ECC@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From tadrichards Tue May 22 14:59:38 2001 From: tadrichards (theoldmole) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 14:59:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] doggerel References: <20010522185124.E9CC23ECC@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <006d01c0e2f1$59b36a60$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> "Old Shep" was from Elvis' second album on RCA Victor, "Elvis" (the first was entitled "Elvis Presley"). It's a classic country weeper, originally recorded by Red Foley, one of Elvis' early idols (and, I believe, Pat Boone's father-in-law). Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert R.Cobb" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 2:51 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] doggerel > Shep...not your theme song, I presume? "Old Shep" must not have been one of Elvis' "Gold Records." > > Bob Cobb > > --- shep > > wrote: > >Makes me think of the song "Old Shep" by Elvis. Do you know it? A > >real tear-jerker! > > > >shep > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > == > Poetry Catamaran > > "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" > > Robert R. Cobb > AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. > http://rrcobb.tripod.com > > _____________________________________________________________ > ----- > Check out my portfolio at www.talent.com > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Rsgwynn1 Tue May 22 15:15:54 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 15:15:54 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] doggerel Message-ID: <31.152aab42.283c14ea@cs.com> In a message dated 5/22/2001 1:52:34 PM Central Daylight Time, CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com writes: > Shep...not your theme song, I presume? "Old Shep" must not have been one of > Elvis' "Gold Records." > > Bob Cobb > "Old Shep" was, I believe, a Red Foley song before Elvis recorded it. It was one he used to perform in high school talent shows. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wasanthony Tue May 22 18:33:46 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 15:33:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] "Ripples" narrative update Message-ID: <20010522223346.88457.qmail@web12108.mail.yahoo.com> The "Ripples" narrative has been updated, for anyone curious about such. It's a long, slow process but I'll bet that by the end of summer we have a dozen pages - once this past spring semester is long forgotten. Oh yeah, it really does have connections to poetry! - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From JackKerouac25 Tue May 22 19:20:49 2001 From: JackKerouac25 (JackKerouac25 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 19:20:49 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Speaking of Poems . . . Message-ID: <51.c007b63.283c4e51@aol.com> Listers, I shouldn't be doing what I'm about to do; I'm taking advantage of your sensibilities. However, I've been working on some poems about growing up in the 1980s (I'm 26), and I've decided to post one of my own. Any criticism/rants/raves/flames would be helpful. Most of the cats I know think that everything I write is, and I quote, "not bad." I figured the anonymity of the computer screen might encourage some of you to be frank with me. Thanks in advance for your patience and your time. Ghosts before Coffee I There are mornings, sure, when I sleep till 7, but mostly, the ghosts get me out of bed when the day's still blue, when the night's chill hasn't shaken off yet. Beside the bed, the alarm clock glows, flashing, red, reminding me that perhaps the power went last night. Perhaps it didn't. Perhaps I never set the clock at all. These days run together, you know. I still see them, running around this house, feet sticking to the linoleum in the kitchen. I still smell her in the kitchen, fried eggs crackling in a black iron skillet, coffee steaming and brewing in the Mr. Coffee pot, draining into the stained carafe. The paper will still be outside the door when I go, the wind will still blow in off the bay, salty and wet. The news will always come. II The boys' bedroom has become a museum and a storehouse of useless future memories. My boy Allen would have been 14 in the fall, and though I know he loved his books, and would have rather played his games on the weekends, I like the picture him, strong and tall, his arm cocked back in a year book photo, ready to send that football spiraling to the end zone to win that homecoming game- Thomas would have been 12, the year he discovered girls, and he'd come home from school, adamant that the Higgins girl who rode her bike home beside him wasn't a girlfriend, couldn't be because he doesn't even like girls. These misogynistic fantasies fill my head when I stand in the doorway, when I see the stacks of leftover toys, the racked beds, the posters of rock stars whose music I'll never like, Allen's shoes beneath the dresser, sticking out like two tiny feet, Thomas's jacket in a crumpled heap on the floor, dust settling around the small room while the light from the window swords through the dust mites, cutting a prism of shadows through the room. They lived here, I repeat. They lived here. III Her wedding band looked like a sun fading behind the moon. I bought it special made from Sears, a whole month's paycheck blown on the gold and diamond. Now, it sets on top of a small brown jewelry box I bought her our first Christmas together- a jewelry box she never filled, not because I couldn't afford the diamonds or pearls, not because I never bought her anything (for her, I'd have purchased the entire world), but because she never wore any jewelry. In a store once, she tried on a golden ring with emerald inlays like panther's eyes, but while the sales lady gushed with compliments, my wife's eyes said to me, See how it drips off my finger? And I could see the way, suddenly, it looked like molten steel dripping away, and it all looked so unreal, so fake. She never wore makeup, so in the bathroom, I don't have to stare at old compacts or powder. I simply have the mirror where steam used to collect when I showered, where she'd write, "I love you" in the condensation and ask me over breakfast if I received any messages from beyond before I shaved. IV This morning the newspaper forecasts sun for at least another two weeks, and this summer heat's killing me. Dog and cats go mad in this furnace and some mornings the weather burns hotter than the coffee. I sit the empty dining room, steaming coffee before me, and I watch how the smoke always drifts up and how it pirouettes around itself, tying tiny knots that can be destroyed with a simple, careless breath of air. Jeffrey L. Newberry Adjunct Instructor Department of English and Foreign Languages University of West Florida 11000 University Parkway Pensacola, FL 32514 850.474.2923 850.473.7330 From CobbCoStudioArts Tue May 22 20:53:03 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 17:53:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Speaking of Poems . . . Message-ID: <20010523005303.3303536F9@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From JackKerouac25 Tue May 22 23:25:30 2001 From: JackKerouac25 (JackKerouac25 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 23:25:30 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Speaking of Poems . . . Message-ID: In a message dated 5/22/01 7:53:39 PM Central Daylight Time, CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com writes: > Jeff, > > There had to have been a most tragic event that wiped out your family. Your > poem poignantly, sadly, expresses your grief. > > Bob Cobb > Bob, Actually, I've never lost my family. I lost my dad, back when I was 15. I was trying to write in a voice that is distinctly different from mine--I tried to channel the emotions of losing a parent into the emotions of losing a family. Thanks for your commentary. Jeffrey L. Newberry Adjunct Instructor Department of English and Foreign Languages University of West Florida 11000 University Parkway Pensacola, FL 32514 850.474.2923 850.473.7330 From JforJames Thu May 24 12:01:40 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:01:40 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] & Truman Capote said, "That's not writing...that's typing." Message-ID: <57.168dc546.283e8a64@aol.com> A bit of lit news clipped from another list... The scroll on which Jack Kerouac composed On the Road 50 years ago was = auctioned on Tuesday at Christie's in Manhattan for $US2.4 million ($4.5 = million), setting the world auction record for a literary manuscript and = significantly eclipsing its presale estimate of $US1 million to $US1.5 = million. ---- The Ammons' heirs may want to test the market for 'Tape for the Turn of the Year' after this news. Jim F From anastasios Thu May 24 12:08:35 2001 From: anastasios (Anastasios Kozaitis) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:08:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] & Truman Capote said, "That's not writing...that's typing." In-Reply-To: <57.168dc546.283e8a64@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010524120808.00a74eb0@mail.verizon.net> from a friend-- >I was at Christie's today and met Jim Irsay. He flew up here with his old >friend Douglas Brinkley (who i just met and shared a ride partway downtown >with). The bidding war ended up being between Jim Irsay, sitting behind us, >and a couple in the row in front of us. I went to the auction with Michelle >Esrick who asked Mr. Irsay point blank after he bought the scroll "Are you >going to share it with the world?" Jim talked about the possibility of >bringing the scroll on the road (in celebration of the 50th year), and talked >about the importance of sharing it with others. Jim's also a poet and guitar >player who spoke of his spirituality and connection to the "beat" writers. He >also said that since Kerouac was an american original, that he was hoping to >buy it to keep it in the USA. And he went on at length about honoring Jack >and paying tribute to him, and acknowledgment of his importance in >literature. The commentary about the football trophy was something he threw >in after all the other really nice things he said about Kerouac. I have a >feeling that's the blurb that the media will spread around though. > >I was surprised at the authentic love he had for Kerouac and happy too - the >awesome and beautiful manuscript, which transcends monetary value, could have >gone to someone who cared a lot less. Plus, i was comforted to see that >Douglas Brinkley and Sterling Lord were friends with Jim Irsay. (Two people >who really love Kerouac.) At 12:01 PM 5/24/01, JforJames at aol.com wrote: >A bit of lit news clipped from another list... >The scroll on which Jack Kerouac composed On the Road 50 years ago was = >auctioned on Tuesday at Christie's in Manhattan for $US2.4 million ($4.5 = >million), setting the world auction record for a literary manuscript and = >significantly eclipsing its presale estimate of $US1 million to $US1.5 = >million. >---- >The Ammons' heirs may want to test the market for >'Tape for the Turn of the Year' after this news. >Jim F >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd Thu May 24 14:09:20 2001 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 13:09:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Highway Sixty Visited Message-ID: Can't bear to let Bob Dylan's 60th birthday pass without at least a nod. For better or worse, his lyrics were my highway into poetry, way back when. Of the many Dylan modes, the one I return to most as I grow older is the blues. She Belongs to Me She's got everything she needs, She's an artist, she don't look back. She's got everything she needs, She's an artist, she don't look back. She can take the dark out of the nighttime And paint the daytime black. You will start out standing Proud to steal her anything she sees. You will start out standing Proud to steal her anything she sees. But you will wind up peeking through her keyhole Down upon your knees. She never stumbles, She's got no place to fall. She never stumbles, She's got no place to fall. She's nobody's child, The Law can't touch her at all. She wears an Egyptian ring That sparkles before she speaks. She wears an Egyptian ring That sparkles before she speaks. She's a hypnotist collector, You are a walking antique. Bow down to her on Sunday, Salute her when her birthday comes. Bow down to her on Sunday, Salute her when her birthday comes. For Halloween give her a trumpet And for Christmas, buy her a drum. --Bob Dylan _______________________________ While I'm at it, let me recommend the new Red House Records tribute album, *A Nod to Bob*, which features an eclectic group of performers (e.g. Greg Brown, Eliza Gilkyson, Guy Davis, Rambling Jack Elliott, the Roches) performing favorite Dylan songs. David Graham __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From fmm1 Thu May 24 14:42:33 2001 From: fmm1 (Fred Muratori) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 14:42:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] & Truman Capote said, "That's not writing...that's typing." In-Reply-To: <57.168dc546.283e8a64@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010524141824.00a508a0@postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu> At 12:01 PM 5/24/01 -0400, you wrote: >A bit of lit news clipped from another list... >The scroll on which Jack Kerouac composed On the Road 50 years ago was = >auctioned on Tuesday at Christie's in Manhattan for $US2.4 million ($4.5 = >million), setting the world auction record for a literary manuscript and = >significantly eclipsing its presale estimate of $US1 million to $US1.5 = >million. >---- >The Ammons' heirs may want to test the market for >'Tape for the Turn of the Year' after this news. >Jim F Just as a point of fact, the "Tape for the Turn of the Year" adding machine roll is kept in the Cornell University Library Rare & Manuscript Collection as part of the Ammons archive, where any visitor to the Library can see it on request. -- Fred M. ******************************************************** Fred Muratori (fmm1 at cornell.edu) Reference Services Division Olin * Kroch * Uris Libraries Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853 WWW: http://fmref.library.cornell.edu/spectra.html ********************************************************* "The spaces between things keep getting bigger and more important." - John Ashbery From paul.lake Thu May 24 03:40:47 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 02:40:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Highway Sixty Visited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 5/24/01 1:09 PM, David Graham at grahamd at mail.ripon.edu wrote: > Can't bear to let Bob Dylan's 60th birthday pass without at least a nod. > For better or worse, his lyrics were my highway into poetry, way back when. > > > Of the many Dylan modes, the one I return to most as I grow older is the > blues. > > She Belongs to Me > > She's got everything she needs, > She's an artist, she don't look back. > She's got everything she needs, > She's an artist, she don't look back. > She can take the dark out of the nighttime > And paint the daytime black. > > You will start out standing > Proud to steal her anything she sees. > You will start out standing > Proud to steal her anything she sees. > But you will wind up peeking through her keyhole > Down upon your knees. > > She never stumbles, > She's got no place to fall. > She never stumbles, > She's got no place to fall. > She's nobody's child, > The Law can't touch her at all. > > She wears an Egyptian ring > That sparkles before she speaks. > She wears an Egyptian ring > That sparkles before she speaks. > She's a hypnotist collector, > You are a walking antique. > > Bow down to her on Sunday, > Salute her when her birthday comes. > Bow down to her on Sunday, > Salute her when her birthday comes. > For Halloween give her a trumpet > And for Christmas, buy her a drum. > --Bob Dylan > _______________________________ > > While I'm at it, let me recommend the new Red House Records tribute album, > *A Nod to Bob*, which features an eclectic group of performers (e.g. Greg > Brown, Eliza Gilkyson, Guy Davis, Rambling Jack Elliott, the Roches) > performing favorite Dylan songs. > > David Graham > > __________________ > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > __________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Great blues lyrics, David, and wholly unknown to me. Thanks for posting. Paul lake From Edward.Byrne Thu May 24 17:47:30 2001 From: Edward.Byrne (Edward Byrne) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 16:47:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Highway Sixty Visited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I posted the following to another list, but I'll re-post it here for this thread-- I know for many of us it may be hard to believe as true, but May 24 is the 60th birthday for Bobby Zimmerman (better known as Bob Dylan). So I'd like to pay tribute with some lines from a couple of his own songs: ...remember me, How my lone guitar played sweet for you that old-time melody. And the harmonica around my neck, I blew it for you, free, No one else could play that tune, You know it was up to me. [from "Up to Me"] May your heart always be joyful, May your song always be sung, May you stay forever young. [from "Forever Young"] --Edward Byrne > Can't bear to let Bob Dylan's 60th birthday pass without at least a nod. > For better or worse, his lyrics were my highway into poetry, way back > when. > > > Of the many Dylan modes, the one I return to most as I grow older is the > blues. > > She Belongs to Me > > She's got everything she needs, > She's an artist, she don't look back. > She's got everything she needs, > She's an artist, she don't look back. > She can take the dark out of the nighttime > And paint the daytime black. > > You will start out standing > Proud to steal her anything she sees. > You will start out standing > Proud to steal her anything she sees. > But you will wind up peeking through her keyhole > Down upon your knees. > > She never stumbles, > She's got no place to fall. > She never stumbles, > She's got no place to fall. > She's nobody's child, > The Law can't touch her at all. > > She wears an Egyptian ring > That sparkles before she speaks. > She wears an Egyptian ring > That sparkles before she speaks. > She's a hypnotist collector, > You are a walking antique. > > Bow down to her on Sunday, > Salute her when her birthday comes. > Bow down to her on Sunday, > Salute her when her birthday comes. > For Halloween give her a trumpet > And for Christmas, buy her a drum. > --Bob Dylan > _______________________________ > > While I'm at it, let me recommend the new Red House Records tribute > album, *A Nod to Bob*, which features an eclectic group of performers > (e.g. Greg Brown, Eliza Gilkyson, Guy Davis, Rambling Jack Elliott, the > Roches) performing favorite Dylan songs. > > David Graham -------------------------------------------------- Edward Byrne Department of English 322 Huegli Hall Valparaiso University Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/ Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/ Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 Fax: (219) 464-5511 -------------------------------------------------- From JforJames Fri May 25 12:39:07 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 12:39:07 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] MUDLARK FLASH NO. 11 (2001) Message-ID: <62.f0a87b6.283fe4ab@aol.com> Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 14:19:04 -0400 From: William Slaughter Subject: Mudlark Flash No. 11 (2001) NEW AND ON VIEW: MUDLARK FLASH NO. 11 (2001) Risa Denenberg | The Conversion of Saint Jon for Jon Marshall Greenberg, 1956-1993 "I am a nurse, a lesbian, and a grandmother, but most deeply, a writer. Currently I live and work as a free-lance medical writer in New York City. Most of my published works are non-fiction. Most of my poems are non-fiction as well, some of which have been published here and there." -- Risa Denenberg from After Life At first you see your dead friend all the time walking down the street, turning the corner, slipping from your reach. The lights blink during a brownout in summer, and you think _it's him_. Spread the word. Far and wide, William Slaughter MUDLARK An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics Never in and never out of print... E-mail: mudlark at unf.edu URL: http://www.unf.edu/mudlark From grahamd Sun May 27 16:02:45 2001 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 15:02:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Google Poetry Message-ID: I just stumbled on Google's wonderfully comprehensive site of poetry links--thought I would mention it for the benefit of others who may not have found it yet: http://directory.google.com/Top/Arts/Literature/Poetry/ David Graham __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From halvard Sun May 27 17:15:14 2001 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 17:15:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Google Poetry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Maybe extensive, but comprehensive? Why, great land o' Goshen, I couldn't even find Blue Moon Review there. Hal "Poetry is harder to read than prose because you have to read all the white stuff too." Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson > I just stumbled on Google's wonderfully comprehensive site of poetry > links--thought I would mention it for the benefit of others who may not > have found it yet: > > http://directory.google.com/Top/Arts/Literature/Poetry/ > > David Graham From CobbCoStudioArts Sun May 27 20:04:05 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 17:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Google Poetry Message-ID: <20010528000405.B389E36EE@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From JforJames Sun May 27 20:25:42 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 20:25:42 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Two poems from Given Sugar, Given Salt Message-ID: <30.157342b7.2842f506@aol.com> From JBCM2 Mon May 28 13:41:04 2001 From: JBCM2 (JBCM2 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 13:41:04 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: "RADICAL(?)" LANGPOS FORM ALLIANCE WITH RABID RIGHT-WINGER Message-ID: at the writer's request, I'm sending this along. please forward all comments to carlo parcelli at alphavil at IX.NETCOM.COM jb -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "R. Gancie/C.Parcelli" Subject: "RADICAL(?)" LANGPOS FORM ALLIANCE WITH RABID RIGHT-WINGER Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 22:08:24 +0000 Size: 5945 URL: From JforJames Mon May 28 18:28:11 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 18:28:11 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: "RADICAL(?)" LANGPOS FORM ALLIANCE WITH RABID RIGHT-WIN... Message-ID: The CD will certainly be of interest but I'd be very interested in hearing the story behind this story of a fellow traveller making a strange bedfellow. Having dipped into the subsubpoetics archives in recent months and seen Richard Dillon's posts, I can confirm that Dillon's politics are outriding the rightmost flank. Perhaps Charles Bernstein will spin it something like Willie Sutton did when he was asked Why did he rob banks? Finnegan From grahamd Tue May 29 17:13:49 2001 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 16:13:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ploughshares web site Message-ID: Ploughshares has a spiffy updated web site that is worth a look: http://www.pshares.org/ The only time I published in Ploughshares was in 1986 with a couple poems--nonetheless they contacted me last year and asked if I wished to be represented on their web site. I said sure, filled out their form, and forgot about it. Now I find that my old poems are available online. Authors may also include biographical & bibliographic info, photos, book recommendations, etc., if they wish. Apparently many other authors said yes, too. I wonder if this sort of thing will become a trend for print magazines. Since Ploughshares features rotating guest editors, this site features a good deal of variety, I'd say. In any case, there are quite a few poems, stories, interviews, articles, and profiles now online, and easily searchable. For those of us who live far from big academic libraries, this sort of trend is most welcome. I just rediscovered Brendan Galvin's 1978 article, "The Mumblings of Young Werther," for instance. It's a bit dated in its examples, but just as refreshingly pointed as it was 23 years ago. There aren't too many poets willing to name names the way Galvin did there--perhaps to the detriment of his career, I suppose. David Graham __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From wasanthony Tue May 29 20:19:51 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 17:19:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Ploughshares web site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010530001951.30803.qmail@web12101.mail.yahoo.com> Ditto on all below. It's interesting to wander around in the site and discover early (1979) Jorie Graham and find she was writing what might be characterized as "mainstream." Interesting too to look for connections. I looked into the era when I published there (late 70's/early 80s) and found a lot of Iowa connections and correlations between guest editors and contributors - nothing necessarily nefarious there: you just solicit work from folks you know! Interesting too to see who did not give permission to include their work. Advice from agents? Lost paperwork? Poet no longer fond of the work that was published? It would be worthwhile for all print magazines to follow suit, and then for someone to do the cross-indexing. - Jim --- David Graham wrote: > Ploughshares has a spiffy updated web site that is worth a look: > http://www.pshares.org/ > > The only time I published in Ploughshares was in 1986 with a couple > poems--nonetheless they contacted me last year and asked if I wished > to be > represented on their web site. I said sure, filled out their form, > and > forgot about it. Now I find that my old poems are available online. > Authors may also include biographical & bibliographic info, photos, > book > recommendations, etc., if they wish. > > Apparently many other authors said yes, too. I wonder if this sort > of > thing will become a trend for print magazines. Since Ploughshares > features rotating guest editors, this site features a good deal of > variety, > I'd say. In any case, there are quite a few poems, stories, > interviews, > articles, and profiles now online, and easily searchable. > > For those of us who live far from big academic libraries, this sort > of > trend is most welcome. I just rediscovered Brendan Galvin's 1978 > article, > "The Mumblings of Young Werther," for instance. It's a bit dated in > its > examples, but just as refreshingly pointed as it was 23 years ago. > There > aren't too many poets willing to name names the way Galvin did > there--perhaps to the detriment of his career, I suppose. > > David Graham ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From moira_russell Tue May 29 22:43:55 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 18:43:55 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ploughshares web site Message-ID: Much as I love browsing around in complete-as-possible online versions of treasured mags myself ("Atlantic" comes immediately to mind).... Much as I think it is very valuable to have these issues out of the library, where they're often not readily available, on the WWW 24/7 and accessible to all scholars.... Much as I certainly wouldn't mind finding myself in the online version of "Ploughshares" or some similar mag.... The thorny issue of copyrights and payments, for me, does come up. At least someone who wanted to photocopy a poem out of a magazine had to take the magazine over to the photocopier, insert some change, and get a less pristine copy for his/her pains. Now, with point-click-copy-and-paste the same words can be carried over onto numerous websites, and cynic that I am, I think such copyright violations will be too difficult and expensive to track, much less prosecute. There is something chilling about David's otherwise charming description of "finding" his own work on a magazine's website....without being paid or even notified for it. Aren't there some folks on this list who themselves are embroiled in this will-we-be-paid-for-electronic-distribution mess? Any ideas on this front? I would think there would be something eventually wrangled out over "electronic rights," the same way there was over first serial rights, or poets/authors might no longer be paid royalties but instead get some kind of flat fee. Of course, I am obviously no expert in this area and these are only halting attempts to try to grasp the matter at hand. But I do wonder. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From moira_russell Tue May 29 22:46:02 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 18:46:02 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ploughshares web site Message-ID: Follow up question: 1) David, I note you did need to sign a legal release. Were you given any recompense? (No need to say how much.) Or any warning of when your work would appear? (I made the stupid mistake of not realizing you _had_ okayed the rights -- sorry....) 2) If "Ploughshares" or a similar mag were to put out a hard-copy anthology which contained some of the things in the online site, would the process of recompense need to be different? Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From halvard Tue May 29 23:08:12 2001 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:08:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ploughshares web site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Royalties? Fees? Recompense? Translations, please. Hal "Let's get on with our non-paying work as always" --Bernadette Mayer Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson > Much as I love browsing around in complete-as-possible online versions of > treasured mags myself ("Atlantic" comes immediately to mind).... > > Much as I think it is very valuable to have these issues out of the library, > where they're often not readily available, on the WWW 24/7 and accessible to > all scholars.... > > Much as I certainly wouldn't mind finding myself in the online version of > "Ploughshares" or some similar mag.... > > The thorny issue of copyrights and payments, for me, does come up. At least > someone who wanted to photocopy a poem out of a magazine had to take the > magazine over to the photocopier, insert some change, and get a less > pristine copy for his/her pains. Now, with point-click-copy-and-paste the > same words can be carried over onto numerous websites, and cynic that I am, > I think such copyright violations will be too difficult and expensive to > track, much less prosecute. There is something chilling about David's > otherwise charming description of "finding" his own work on a magazine's > website....without being paid or even notified for it. > > Aren't there some folks on this list who themselves are embroiled in this > will-we-be-paid-for-electronic-distribution mess? Any ideas on this front? > > I would think there would be something eventually wrangled out over > "electronic rights," the same way there was over first serial rights, or > poets/authors might no longer be paid royalties but instead get some kind of > flat fee. Of course, I am obviously no expert in this area and these are > only halting attempts to try to grasp the matter at hand. > > But I do wonder. > > Moira Russell > Seattle, WA > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd Wed May 30 00:17:04 2001 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:17:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ploughshares/online publishing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Moira raises good and important issues, but I'm sorry if my cavalier tone implied that Ploughshares had done anything shady or sneaky in putting my poems online. No, they asked and I gave them permission for everything that they have done. And they did notify me when the site went live. Furthermore, they do allow authors to control how their work is displayed in various ways: you can select some pieces and not others to go online, and there is a "display periodically" option. And it's possible to withdraw permission at any time, not to mention that of course you may choose not to go online at all. Additionally, they allot each Ploughshares author a web page on their site for promotional purposes: biographical note, announcements of new pubs, links to Amazon for buying books, photos, reading notices, contact addresses, links to your home page, etc. All in all, it seemed like a real win-win situation to me, in fact quite a generous offer on the part of the journal. But I confess that my cavalier attitude is real. Having never been paid much for any poem, in any medium, I don't find this sort of publication any more exploitive than the usual payment-in-copies. In fact I smile a little when Moira writes the very word "payment" --that being foreign to my thought as firmament to fin. Not that I *mind* being paid; I'm just not expecting it. Nor am I worried about copyright infringement or unauthorized printing of my work--at least not any more than I fret that someone will find one of my poems in the periodical room and do something unspeakable with it. Anyone who publishes risks being plagiarized or otherwise ripped off, no matter the medium. (Why, Billy Collins has been stealing my best ideas for years. . . .) Ultimately, I am excited by the new horizons that seem to be opening up with such initiatives. They do raise some legal and ethical questions, to be sure, but until such time as significant big bucks become possible for poets, count me as happy to see more and more work go online. I hope I'm not the *only* schmuck who actually buys books that I learn about via Poetry Daily and other sites! I note that Poetry Daily today links to Dana Gioia's home page, for example--where one can find a nice sampling of his poems, reviews, and essays, along with other material. All there for the "taking," whatever that would mean. My guess is that Gioia believes--correctly--that such online promotion sells books and lubricates the wheels of his career more than it exposes him to rip-offs. I also have to note that in my relatively brief and unsustained forays into the world of online publishing, I've gotten a lot more feedback and positive fallout than I ever did by publishing in *Poetry* or *The Georgia Review*. Not that I plan to cease seeking print publication any time soon, but it's nice to be read occasionally, you know? I just see some options opening up here, and as long as people act as responsibly as Ploughshares has, that seems all to the good. Perhaps others have different slants. I note that our List-Meister Jim Finnegan's Ploughshares poems do *not* seem to be currently available online. What's the story, Jim? David Graham ________________________ >Follow up question: > >1) David, I note you did need to sign a legal release. Were you given any >recompense? (No need to say how much.) Or any warning of when your work >would appear? (I made the stupid mistake of not realizing you _had_ okayed >the rights -- sorry....) > >2) If "Ploughshares" or a similar mag were to put out a hard-copy anthology >which contained some of the things in the online site, would the process of >recompense need to be different? > >Moira Russell >Seattle, WA >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From moira_russell Wed May 30 02:17:11 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 22:17:11 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ploughshares/online publishing Message-ID: David Graham wrote: >I'm sorry if my cavalier tone >implied that Ploughshares had done anything shady or sneaky in putting my >poems online. No, they asked and I gave them permission for everything >that they have done. And they did notify me when the site went live. Yes, it's clear "Ploughshares" obviously wanted at least a legal release and that some poets refused to put their work on the website -- just my careless reading, David, I don't think your tone was "cavalier" at all. I believe I was thinking more of recent cases where work has been used online without a writer's specific permission, much less any payment. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From aprentiss Wed May 30 08:08:39 2001 From: aprentiss (Amber Prentiss) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 08:08:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Ploughshares web site Message-ID: (I accidentally backchanneled most of this earlier.) It would be worth the while to put together a site like this, but the thought of the project is staggering, especially for a small magazine. The time involved would seem to be pretty large, depending on the age of the magazine, how the files were/are stored, how quickly whoever helms the project could get in contact with the poets, how long it takes to test the links and spellcheck, and, last but not least, whether the people doing the site are getting paid to do it or just are doing it when/if they have time. Still, for magazines that are old and/or have many out-of-print issues, it could help make everything old new again. This site is beautiful, but I'd have to scale down a few hopes for print journals' websites. (I've seen too many.) First of all, I wish that all of them would have more than the table of contents for the current issue listed. That's terribly annoying; even if I know who the writers are, what's to say that what got published was any good? Samples from the issue are always nice. Secondly, I wish they'd update at least every year, if not with every issue. Thirdly, I wish that they would all be navigable. Some sites are so visually dazzling that I don't know where I'm going. But since I'm complaining, if anyone wants help getting or staying on the web (for whatever reason), you can bother me some. -Amber -----Original Message----- From: jcervantes To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 5/29/2001 8:19 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ploughshares web site Ditto on all below. It's interesting to wander around in the site and discover early (1979) Jorie Graham and find she was writing what might be characterized as "mainstream." Interesting too to look for connections. I looked into the era when I published there (late 70's/early 80s) and found a lot of Iowa connections and correlations between guest editors and contributors - nothing necessarily nefarious there: you just solicit work from folks you know! Interesting too to see who did not give permission to include their work. Advice from agents? Lost paperwork? Poet no longer fond of the work that was published? It would be worthwhile for all print magazines to follow suit, and then for someone to do the cross-indexing. - Jim --- David Graham wrote: > Ploughshares has a spiffy updated web site that is worth a look: > http://www.pshares.org/ > > The only time I published in Ploughshares was in 1986 with a couple > poems--nonetheless they contacted me last year and asked if I wished > to be > represented on their web site. I said sure, filled out their form, > and > forgot about it. Now I find that my old poems are available online. > Authors may also include biographical & bibliographic info, photos, > book > recommendations, etc., if they wish. > > Apparently many other authors said yes, too. I wonder if this sort > of > thing will become a trend for print magazines. Since Ploughshares > features rotating guest editors, this site features a good deal of > variety, > I'd say. In any case, there are quite a few poems, stories, > interviews, > articles, and profiles now online, and easily searchable. > > For those of us who live far from big academic libraries, this sort > of > trend is most welcome. I just rediscovered Brendan Galvin's 1978 > article, > "The Mumblings of Young Werther," for instance. It's a bit dated in > its > examples, but just as refreshingly pointed as it was 23 years ago. > There > aren't too many poets willing to name names the way Galvin did > there--perhaps to the detriment of his career, I suppose. > > David Graham ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From wasanthony Wed May 30 09:09:25 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 06:09:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Ploughshares web site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010530130925.7655.qmail@web12105.mail.yahoo.com> --- Amber Prentiss wrote: > (I accidentally backchanneled most of this earlier.) > > It would be worth the while to put together a site like this, but the > thought of the project is staggering, especially for a small > magazine. The > time involved would seem to be pretty large, depending on the age of > the > magazine, how the files were/are stored, how quickly whoever helms > the > project could get in contact with the poets, how long it takes to > test the > links and spellcheck, and, last but not least, whether the people > doing the > site are getting paid to do it or just are doing it when/if they have > time. > Still, for magazines that are old and/or have many out-of-print > issues, it > could help make everything old new again. Amber, you're talking about archiving, which is a dilemma every e-publication and "web-ring" (Web del Sol, ILEF etc.) faces, though Ploughshares has an easier task in that their archiving is limited to their magazine - making sure links are active and accurate is simply an ongoing task, and one would hope all spellchecking was done first time around. The larger problems center around compatability between the original html programs used to archive work and the ever-evolving browsers and what html programs they decide to read. If years of work are stored in one format, it will do no good if browsers are only compatible with newer formats or formats used by their partners. Don't know if Ploughshares has a paid webmaster or whether they farm out that work. I haven't checked the site thoroughly to see whether they got a grant to do the archiving or what, but I know that's the route other publications and organizations use. > > This site is beautiful, but I'd have to scale down a few hopes for > print > journals' websites. (I've seen too many.) First of all, I wish that > all of > them would have more than the table of contents for the current issue > listed. That's terribly annoying; even if I know who the writers are, > what's to say that what got published was any good? Samples from the > issue are always nice. Secondly, I wish they'd update at least every > year, if not with every issue. They seem to be doing a good job in that regard. Again, however, it takes a paid webmaster to keep that up. >Thirdly, I wish that they would all be > navigable. Some sites are so visually dazzling that I don't know > where I'm > going. Yep. Some of them get a little too cute and are more enamored of their html skills than esy access for potential readers. > But since I'm complaining, if anyone wants help getting or > staying on > the web (for whatever reason), you can bother me some. > Don't get that. Could you explain? - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From ron.silliman Wed May 30 09:15:42 2001 From: ron.silliman (Ron Silliman) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 09:15:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rating "rabid" "radicals" Message-ID: <002a01c0e90a$a841c040$3353fea9@oemcomputer> Am I the only one who is bemused with Carlo's latest round of spam? He's hit the PoetryEtc and Brit-Po lists with this latest one before sending it here. The premise is simple enough. Richard Dillon is an aggressive, outspoken rightwinger, politically speaking. He also produced the Ear Inn CD that has been available since 1994. That's it. The whole "scandal" in a nutshell. Carlo's twist is simply that, seven years later, he's decided to "reveal" it in tones so shrill they would make Matt Drudge wince. This hardly qualifies as investigative journalism. It's worth noting, of course, that Dillon either kept his politics to himself until 1999 or 2000, or may even have had some sort of change of heart/stance/mind somewhere along the way. He published some avant/progressive/langpo-oriented poetry in the mid-1970s and then was silent for the better part of 20 years before getting involved with this project. The politics, such as they are, came later. There is a certain timelessness in Carlo's headline (even all in caps): "RADICAL(?)" LANGPOS FORM ALLIANCE WITH RABID RIGHT-WINGER. "Form alliance" is grammatically in the present, even if it isn't factually the case. This sort of reminds me of Cary Nelson's observation that Pound showed up in Communist (big and small c) publications in the early 1930s, in that it shows how fluid these things might prove to be. Where it differs, of course, is in the reverse redbaiting element that is Carlo's own peculiar contribution to the discourse. The suggestion is that the langpos (myself included, I suppose) are phony radicals because Dillon is so clearly of a different political bent. So the charge really comes down to one of phoniness. The problem with the logic is one of temporality. It requires everyone on the Ear Inn CD (my own selection was recorded in 1986) to know what the publisher's politics would be years, even decades, later. Good luck with that! Personally, I would that Richard's politics were different. But ultimately, I don't see how they differ all that much from Carlo's in practice: both are "out there" precisely to shock and call attention to themselves. That seems to be the underlying demand of each, around which the varience of politics seems just a convenient cloaking device. Ron From jdavis Wed May 30 09:51:26 2001 From: jdavis (Jordan Davis) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 09:51:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] now now In-Reply-To: <002a01c0e90a$a841c040$3353fea9@oemcomputer> Message-ID: Hi Ron. Tricky Dillon's been posting an intense amount of political spam to the subsubpoetics list - one of the things I've been trying to get him to explain is how a member of the John Birch Society (and practicing Buddhist!) can reconcile his political affiliation with his enthusiasm for iconoclastic, economically-deterministic writing. I'm prepared to accept the whole thing as another amusing case of strange bedfellows -- Carlo, apparently, is not, and when I can figure out what thorn exactly is in his paw, y'all'll have to call me Androcles for a month. There's a semi-serious issue in all of this, though -- what if the politically-motivated forms of language poetry turn out to be stealable property -- as well-nigh all avant-garde forms have before. You might argue that the New Sentence already _has_ been appropriated, I dunno. And maybe this is a question more for Barrett Watten. But I wonder what your thoughts are about this -- it certainly happened to Alinsky, and I'd argue that Dillon's recent activity indicates it's starting to happen to langpo. Jordan Davis From tadrichards Wed May 30 09:56:03 2001 From: tadrichards (theoldmole) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 09:56:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ploughshares/online publishing References: Message-ID: <001c01c0e910$44bd9e80$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> This whole question of the economics of PoBiz is an odd one anyway. This is a profession in which, generally speaking, we give away our primary product in order to get ancillary revenues -- teaching positions, grants, lecture tours, residencies. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Moira Russell" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 2:17 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ploughshares/online publishing > David Graham wrote: > > >I'm sorry if my cavalier tone > >implied that Ploughshares had done anything shady or sneaky in putting my > >poems online. No, they asked and I gave them permission for everything > >that they have done. And they did notify me when the site went live. > > Yes, it's clear "Ploughshares" obviously wanted at least a legal release and > that some poets refused to put their work on the website -- just my careless > reading, David, I don't think your tone was "cavalier" at all. I believe I > was thinking more of recent cases where work has been used online without a > writer's specific permission, much less any payment. > > Moira Russell > Seattle, WA > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd Wed May 30 10:28:43 2001 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 09:28:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Ploughshares web site In-Reply-To: <20010530130925.7655.qmail@web12105.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: I seem to recall the magic phrase "Lila Wallace" being used in connection with the Ploughshares project, so Jim's guess about grant funding appears to be correct. I think it's true that the wonderful Sarabande Books web site also resulted from an infusion of grant money. So it goes. Tad Richards also points to one of the oddities of contemporary po-biz, which is that we do tend to give away our primary product (poems) in hopes of ancillary benefits. My poems have, in fact, indirectly netted me tenure, even though boxes of my unsold books still sit in several publishers' closets. I'll long remember the time I had a negative year with one collection--my royalty statement revealed that more copies were sent back by bookstores than were sold. What else can I say but hooray for university & small presses, who keep such books in print even when they're not selling. I've certainly made a lot more money giving readings, lecturing or essaying about poetry than I ever have publishing the stuff. One essay in particular, which happened to appear in a couple anthologies after its journal appearance, has easily been more profitable than 26 years of individual poems put together. Even there, though, we're talking not about *real* money, but about what my brother the tax lawyer terms "hobby income." David Graham __________________________ > >Don't know if Ploughshares has a paid webmaster or whether they farm >out that work. I haven't checked the site thoroughly to see whether >they got a grant to do the archiving or what, but I know that's the >route other publications and organizations use. > >> __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From aprentiss Wed May 30 11:13:03 2001 From: aprentiss (Amber Prentiss) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 11:13:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Ploughshares web site Message-ID: Basically, I was offerring quite free help to anyone who wanted some for making, maintaining, or doing some grunt work for a web page, personal or otherwise. (I actually like doing it. Don't ask me why.) Between working and avoiding housecleaning, I have a lot of time. If I'm going to complain, I may as well help out, too. -Amber -----Original Message----- > But since I'm complaining, if anyone wants help getting or > staying on > the web (for whatever reason), you can bother me some. > Don't get that. Could you explain? - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From sondheim Wed May 30 12:12:50 2001 From: sondheim (Alan Sondheim) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 12:12:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Rating "rabid" "radicals" In-Reply-To: <200105301600.f4UG02723704@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: vis-a-vis Carlo's RABID etc. I have to admit the initial post sickened me; it sounds like McCarthyism all over again. All of us are open to attack in this manner (it's happened to me and will happen again I'm sure). It's ugly and seems to me as usual to stem from the subsub (if that list is still going) generalized hatred of "langpo" - for which obsessive self- mutilation I left that list a long time ago. Alan, disgusted, reading a HUAC document from 1956, "SOVIET TOTAL WAR: 'Historic Mission' of Violence and Deceit" - the rhetoric is all too familiar. Internet Text at http://www2.sva.edu/~alans/ Main site at http://www.anu.edu.au/english/internet_txt Partial at http://lists.village.virginia.edu/~spoons/internet_txt.html Trace Projects at http://trace.ntu.ac.uk/writers/sondheim/index.htm CDROM of collected work 1994-2000/1 available: write sondheim at panix.com From paul.lake Wed May 30 01:36:46 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 00:36:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Radicals Message-ID: I'm curious to learn what political positions Carlo holds that are so rabidly right wing. Did he vote Republican in the last election? What? Paul Lake From JforJames Wed May 30 13:23:03 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 13:23:03 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Rating "rabid" "radicals" Message-ID: Ron, Thanks for the background/timeline; nothing there with which to prosecute one langpo's icons...& a gossip flop. Good to know about the Ear Inn CD tho...the adage about even bad publicity being publicity. Finnegan From JforJames Wed May 30 15:23:44 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 15:23:44 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Transcontinental Poetry Award by Pavement Saw Press Message-ID: <1e.1680b68a.2846a2c0@aol.com> The Annual Transcontinental Poetry Award by Pavement Saw Press Each year Pavement Saw Press will seek to publish at least one book of poetry and/or prose poems from manuscripts received during this competition. Selection is made anonymously through a competition that is open to anyone who has not previously published a volume of poetry or prose. The author receives $1500 and copies. The judge of the competition is David Bromige. Previous judges have included Bin Ramke and Howard McCord. All poems must be original, all prose must be original, fiction or translations are not acceptable. Writers who have had volumes of poetry and/or prose under 40 pages printed or printed in limited editions of no more than 500 copies are eligible. Submissions are accepted during the months of June, July, and until August 15th. Entries must meet these requirements: 1. The manuscript should be at least 48 pages and no more than 64 pages in length. 2. A cover letter which includes a brief biography, the book's title, your name, address, and telephone number, your signature, and, if you have e-mail, your e-mail address. It should also include a list of acknowledgments for the book. 3. The manuscript should be bound with a single clip and begin with a title page including the book's title, your name, address, and telephone number, and, if you have e-mail, your e-mail address. Submissions to the contest are judged anonymously. 4. The second page should have only the title of the manuscript. There are to be no acknowledgments or mention of the author's name from this page forward. 5. A table of contents should follow the second title page. 6. The manuscript should be paginated, beginning with the first page of poetry. 7. There should be no more than one poem on each page. The manuscript can contain pieces that are longer than one page. Your manuscript should be accompanied by a check in the amount of $15.00 (US) made payable to Pavement Saw Press. All US contributors to the contest will receive at least one book provided a self addressed 9 by 12 envelope with $1.60 postage attached is provided. Add appropriate postage for other countries. For acknowledgment of the manuscripts arrival, please include a stamped, self-addressed postcard. For notification of results, enclose a SASE business size envelope. A decision will be reached in September. Do not send the only copy of your work. All manuscripts will be recycled, and individual comments on the manuscripts cannot be made. Manuscripts and correspondence should be sent to: Pavement Saw Press Transcontinental Award Entry P.O. Box 6291 Columbus, OH 43206 Last year two books were published. One chosen by the judge (who won publication and monetary prize) and one by the editor (whose book was published with a royalty contract). Submissions are accepted during the months of June, July, and postmarked until August 15th only. http://pavementsaw.org From jholmes Wed May 30 21:22:35 2001 From: jholmes (Janet Holmes) Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 19:22:35 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Webpages Message-ID: Hi David (et al.), You're right about the grants funding webpages and webpage design--at AWP, people from both Copper Canyon and Graywolf Presses spoke about applying for grant monies for website creation/maintenance from companies not usually connected with the world of literary presses. I haven't gotten quite so far with Ahsahta Press's website, which probably rates as "basic"--but has been good for business, at least. It's at ahsahtapress.boisestate.edu, if anyone wants a look. Janet Holmes From grahamd Thu May 31 11:15:23 2001 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 10:15:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Eileen Myles Message-ID: Interesting feature on Eileen Myles in the NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/30/arts/30POET.html?searchpv=nytToday I'm happy to learn more about Myles, who mostly evaded my radar until a few years ago. Heard her on an AWP panel with David Lehman and Billy Collins, talking about the New York Poets. This panel not only rekindled my sometimes dormant interest in the NY Poets, but also made me realize how much Collins *is* one. And I enjoyed Myles a lot--her poetry is the sort I was very slow to appreciate. Typically, though, in this article about "the last of the New York Poets" no actual poem is quoted, and the focus is on Myles's prose as well as her cool factor. Every now and then I do like to remind myself why I no longer get the Times. Where I live, the likelihood of finding Myles's poetry in a bookstore would be like finding, well, my own. So I'd appreciate any recommendations of best books to hunt for when I travel to distant cities. But luckily her poems are to be found, here and there, on the web. In the PLOUGHSHARES site recently mentioned, for instance. And in the ever-lively JACKET: http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/jacket02/myles02.html And at the EPC site: http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc/authors/myles/ There, take that! NYTimes. . . . David Graham __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From jdavis Thu May 31 11:28:35 2001 From: jdavis (Jordan Davis) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 11:28:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Eileen Myles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The highlight of Eileen's early work is "The Irony of the Leash"... there's a semiotext(e) collection (or is it Autonomedia?) called Not Me. Black Sparrow's printed some poetry and prose, I think. Eileen's presidential run figures in Leslie Scalapino's Dead Souls. While it's true that the Times' literary coverage is generally very irritating, that they ran a profile to coincide with the publication of a novel by a very small indie publisher is, well, cool. Jordan From tadrichards Thu May 31 12:38:15 2001 From: tadrichards (theoldmole) Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 12:38:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Virus hoax References: Message-ID: <004a01c0e9f0$176fce40$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Just want to make sure everyone knows this, because I've gotten it from a few well-meaning sources. If you get an e-mail telling you to remove SULFNBK.EXE from your system because it contains a virus, THIS IS A HOAX. DO NOT REMOVE THIS APPLICATION FROM YOUR SYSTEM. Tad From Edward.Byrne Tue May 1 01:09:22 2001 From: Edward.Byrne (Edward Byrne) Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 00:09:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why does contemporary American poetry suck? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David, The essay appears in _Touchstones: American Poets on a Favorite Poem_, edited by Robert Pack and Jay Parini. Like you, I am not sure I wholeheartedly support Lea's view even though I admit it has much merit. Instead, I like the idea of someone coming along, a Tiger Woods of poetry, who represents the highest level of accomplishment one can admire, a figure to inspire all with the kind of work others aspire to attain. --Ed > Edward, Where does this essay by Sydney Lea appear? > > I'm not sure I can entirely endorse the sentiments he expresses, myself > (perhaps lingering elitism in my soul?). But I would agree that one > thing that consistently seems to be ignored or downplayed in the > discussion of poetry's supposed glut and decline in our era is the > degree to which aesthetic options have proliferated since WWII, as > previously unheard voices began to sound more loudly within the > canonical groves. > > Whether you're talking book sales, the lack of consensus on who's major, > the many competing aesthetics, the phenomenon of regional "fame," the > growth of non-academic poetical activity such as slams, or any number of > other issues, poetry's trend toward democratization must be dealt with. > > In this regard, the poverty of imagination in a critic like Harold > Bloom is really stunning, I think. He has no ears for so many > different kinds of contemporary poetry (especially those based in the > oral tradition) that his particular brand of elitism just seems > ludicrous. > > David Graham > ______________________ > > > > >This evening I was reading an essay on Keats by Sydney Lea and came > >across the following that seems an appropriate response for this thread > >in which some have quoted critics lamenting that nowadays there are so > >many poets, but unlike the Modern era, few yet recognized as major: > > > >"Ours is a poetic era often sneered at for producing so many poets but > >so few great ones. If, however, a progressively democratic spirit is > >to attend the unfolding of human history (and I for one must believe it > >will, so that I can remain a hopeful man), can't we conceive of our era > >as the excellent one forecast by Keats in his letter to [John] > >Reynolds?" > > > >[Keats wrote of his vision of a future era: "...Humanity instead of > >being a wide heath of Furse and Briars with here and there a remote Oak > >or Pine, would become a grand democracy of Forest Trees."] > > > >Lea concludes: "Can't we conceive of the world as one in which a > >_collective_ expression of beauty will offer the vision to sustain us? > >Can't we take heart from the many kinds of voice that are chanting > >their way into the so-called canon?" > > > >--Edward Byrne > > -------------------------------------------------- Edward Byrne Department of English 322 Huegli Hall Valparaiso University Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/ Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/ Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 Fax: (219) 464-5511 -------------------------------------------------- From BobGrumman Tue May 1 05:45:24 2001 From: BobGrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 05:45:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why does contemporary American poetry suck? References: <3AEBF26F.70BF@nut-n-but.net> <002e01c0d0ab$2b513060$3c19fea9@kozaitis> <3AEC3DBE.331B@nut-n-but.net> <009a01c0d0d1$ea41d8a0$3c19fea9@kozaitis> <3AEC58FE.3C9A@nut-n-but.net> <004c01c0d106$45278240$3c19fea9@kozaitis> Message-ID: <3AEE85B4.2C7B@nut-n-but.net> Anastasios: I think the question underlying this discussion is how much ought a poet compromise his inner vision due to external influences? The latter would include money, certainly, but also all kinds of other things, some of them stronger with some than money, like simply being liked--by one's family and friends and/or by the world at large. Or a desire for presige, which might lead one to write against one's "true self" to AVOID money, because to do so would gain one prestige with Important People. I would go on to say that compromising one's inner vision is unavoidable and, much of the time, good since a main purpose of poetry, I would think, should be to communicate one's vision, and to do that you have to make it more palatable, among other things. An obvious example is changing a poem that makes sense to you but which others find obscure so that it can be understood by others. One might do this under the pressure of wanting to make tenure, or directly for money, or only to win the favorable attention of some friend--or various combinations, always, I would hope, including simply meeting the challenge of going beyond solipsism. Another example would be avoiding or mitigating a blasphemy one would really like to pull of because one's cousins are very religious. In all such cases, the external influence can be corrupting, as you fear economic influences are, but I think they can also be beneficial, can work toward improving one's poetry. Even money. As for the latter, it's hard for me to say too much about because it has so little to do with my practice as a poet, or with that of the poets I know. We're just too far out of the loop for it to be meaningful-- there's no way we could change our poems to make money (that we know of). Final opinion on the topic is that I feel it to be part of the definition of a poet that he is a person who will find a way to be sufficiently true to himself regardless of any baleful influence such as the economic ones that concern you. Only a poet who wouldn't have done anything of consequence in the art can be corrupted by money, as far as I'm concerned. Oh, one more thought: about poets having a better understanding of economics, fine, but life is short, and there's so much to know that seems to me more important to the creation of poetry. Ditto politics. As for any specific economic knowledge that would help one make money as a poet, I'd love to have it, and have tried to acquire it, but believe it something I'll never be able to figure out. --Bob G. From JforJames Tue May 1 09:07:19 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 09:07:19 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Ondaatje poem Message-ID: <3d.b0ad88c.28200f07@aol.com> Subj: April 30: Michael Ondaatje Date: 4/30/01 11:02:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: webmaster at randomhouse.com Reply-to: knopfwebmaster at randomhouse.com To: JforJames at aol.com A poem by Michael Ondaatje, from THE CINNAMON PEELER The Cinnamon Peeler If I were a cinnamon peeler I would ride your bed and leave the yellow bark dust on your pillow. Your breasts and shoulders would reek you could never walk through markets without the profession of my fingers floating over you. The blind would stumble certain of whom they approached though you might bathe under rain gutters, monsoon. Here on the upper thigh at this smooth pasture neighbour to your hair or the crease that cuts your back. This ankle. You will be known among strangers as the cinnamon peeler's wife. I could hardly glance at you before marriage never touch you --your keen nosed mother, your rough brothers. I buried my hands in saffron, disguised them over smoking tar, helped the honey gatherers . . . When we swam once I touched you in water and our bodies remained free, you could hold me and be blind of smell. You climbed the bank and said this is how you touch other women the grass cutter's wife, the lime burner's daughter. And you searched your arms for the missing perfume and knew what good is it to be the lime burner's daughter left with no trace as if not spoken to in the act of love as if wounded without the pleasure of a scar. You touched your belly to my hands in the dry air and said I am the cinnamon peeler's wife. Smell me. Copyright (c) 1989 by Michael Ondaatje From jdavis Tue May 1 09:18:05 2001 From: jdavis (Jordan Davis) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 09:18:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Ondaatje poem In-Reply-To: <3d.b0ad88c.28200f07@aol.com> Message-ID: "Smell me"??? Three gacks. Jordan From jdavis Tue May 1 09:20:58 2001 From: jdavis (Jordan Davis) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 09:20:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] epic tasks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >That said, Kirsch's poem leads me to believe he was handed a template, a > >hierarchy of acceptable projects for epics. > > Would be genuinely interested in whatever might have made you think that -- > I didn't get much from his poem, except a certain stiff glumness. I wondered > what other people thought of it, too (Jim's "Gack!" was certainly vivid). The incredible literariness of it. Writing according to received ideas of grandeur. The sound combinations weren't terrible - but > Whaling and mercantilism? This isn't Melville, is it? Close - but Melville's epic poem is about, um, the Holy Land. I was thinking of Ye Maximus Poems. Jordan Davis From JforJames Tue May 1 09:27:11 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 09:27:11 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by Cate Marvin Message-ID: <90.1396c883.282013af@aol.com> FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Sarabande Books Announces the August 2001 Publication of Worlds Tallest Disaster, Poems by Cate Marvin Winner of the 2000 Kathryn A. Morton Prize in Poetry featured page on our Sarabande Website at www.sarabandebooks.org. Thanks! Excerpt from Cate Marvin's World's Tallest Disaster READER, PLEASE You didn't light my cigarette. Offered your lighter so I could light it myself. Recall the white room I took you to when you could not breathe? Reader, please, it's called chivalry. Five years you've lived since that night and you won't offer a flame? You lay purple in the emergency room, stuttering on the syllable of your name. To think I actually prayed. When the blood drained from your face, you rose new and strange, a white flower. Your leaving felt like atrocity. I should not have said it. Yes, you, as one loves a saint. Let us speak of that other night, how the moon struck the sky with its sickle and we lay as two halves in a decrepit hotel room in New France, let us order some more whiskey. Reader, it was the funniest thing- after you left I stood in the parking lot, leaned back against a parked car, smoking. Reader, they called security. A uniformed man appeared in the doorway. The light from his flashlight traveled over me-exposed, derelict. He approached me cautiously, Ma'am, are you a guest here? I nodded soberly, though the whole night shook me till I was so dizzy I laughed. Your eyes are like hands dipped in blue paint, they grab and grab. Sometimes, reader, I wish they'd taken me away, right there and then. Violently passionate and firmly symmetrical, like tango or the blues, these poemsat firstare about sexual passion. . . . But in the tradition of love poetry, these poems dont stop with love. They move from eros to imagination. Or they thrash between the two. . . . This is an encouraging book in the context of American poetrys fashions or factions, because it evades categories. [Marvins] is an urgent as well as an artful voice. From the Foreword by Robert Pinsky Cate Marvin's unswerving subject is how, as men and women, we afflict each other and ourselves. Her poems craftily destroy romantic stereotypes and speak back to the disasters we create. They speak with an anquished irony, enraged lyricism, and a dark hope. There is something both very old and very new in this brash, canny, and utterly authentic book. Edward Hirsch The "bittersweet Eros"--as another poet calls him--speaks here again, this time through Cate Marvin's poems, and does so in a fresh, beautiful, convincing way. Adam Zagajewski Cate Marvin uses language the way a gymnast uses her body; she is a formalist who has thoroughly learned the pleasures and gains of abandon. But it is her excursions into wild image and passionate song that win the readers heart. The heart is central in Worlds Tallest Disaster, which is essentially a book of love poems--love lost and found, love requited, love abandoned and betrayed. What Cate Marvin has done in her remarkably assured and powerful first collection is to remind us in fresh terms of the news that stays news: that our desire is Not a sea of longing,// but the brack of wanting whats physical/ to help us forget we are physical. Cate Marvin, author of Worlds Tallest Disaster (Sarabande Books, 2001), was born in Washington, D.C. She received her B.A. from Marlboro College in Vermont, and holds two M.F.A.s: one from the University of Houston in poetry, the other from the Iowa Writers Workshop in fiction. She has been awarded scholarships to attend both Bread Loaf and Sewanee Writers Conferences. Her poems have appeared in such magazines as New England Review, The Antioch Review, The Paris Review, The Georgia Review, and Ploughshares, among others. She is lives in Cincinnati, Ohio, and is currently a Ph.D. candidate in English at the university there. Worlds Tallest Disaster is the thirty-eighth title to be published by Sarabande Books, a nonprofit literary press headquartered in Louisville, Kentucky. Since the 1996 debut of the press, Sarabande Books titles have received positive review attention from nationally distinguished media including The New York Times Book Review, Publishers Weekly, Kirkus Reviews, American Book Review, Small Press, The Nation, and Library Journal. This book was funded in part by a grant from the Kentucky Arts Council, a state agency of the Education, Arts and Humanities Cabinet. Title: Worlds Tallest Disaster Author: Cate Marvin ISBN: 1-889330-61-2 (paper) 1-899330-60-4 (cloth) Price: $12.95 (paper) $20.95 (cloth) Trim: 6 x 9 Marketing Information: Author tour in Ohio, Kentucky, and NYC Brochure and postcard mailings to MFA Programs, Bookstores, Libraries, and Marvins personal contacts. Advertisements in key literary and trade magazines Featured title in Sarabande Catalog and Newsletter For additional information or to request a review copy, please contact: Nickole Brown Sarabande Books 2234 Dundee Road, Suite 200 Louisville, KY 40205 Phone: (502) 458-4028 Fax: (502) 458-4065 E-mail: SarabandeB at aol.com Please visit our Website! www.SarabandeBooks.org From JforJames Tue May 1 09:50:45 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 09:50:45 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Ondaatje poem Message-ID: > "Smell me"??? Three gacks. > > Jordan so I guess you're not interested in Knopf's special promotional scratch-n-sniff broadside? Finnegan From JforJames Tue May 1 09:53:05 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 09:53:05 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Sugar Mule -- Call for manuscripts Message-ID: Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 20:38:50 +0100 From: M L Weber Subject: Sugar Mule -- Call for manuscripts (correction) In past issues, Sugar Mule has published: Paul Hoover, Pierre Joris, Lance Olsen, M. L. Weber, Kate Lila Wheeler, Ray Ronci, John Williams, Michael Heller, Jeremy J. Huffman, Linda Bohe, Mark Amerika, Jane Augustine, Michael Coffey, Jana Hays, Bob Harrison, David Golumbia, Andrew Schelling, Fred Muratori, E. McGrand, Michael Heller, Kristen Ankiewicz, Lance Olsen, Peter Wild, Rochelle Ratner, Bill Berkson, Elaine Equi, Laurel Speer, Trevor Dodge, Paul Beckman, Susan Wheeler, James Bertolino, Clayton Eshleman, Sheila E. Murphy, Amie Siegel, Patricia Dubrava, Elizabeth Fox, Brett Evans, H. Kassia Fleisher, Jean Anderson, Sharon Dolin, Laurel Speer, Cheryl Burket, Elsa Cross, and Vandana Shiva. and is looking for new work -- esp. prose (any genre) -- for its eighth issue. Visit the site at www.sugarmule.com ---you NEED to type in the WWW--- to read submission guidelines and the latest issue. Deadline for submissions is August 15, 2001. We also welcome any comments you might have. From wasanthony Tue May 1 10:08:21 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 07:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Ondaatje poem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010501140821.27893.qmail@web12101.mail.yahoo.com> --- JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > "Smell me"??? Three gacks. > > > > Jordan > so I guess you're not interested in Knopf's > special promotional scratch-n-sniff broadside? > Finnegan I am! I am! I gave it only half-a-gack. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From paul.lake Tue May 1 00:40:37 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 23:40:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ondaatje Message-ID: In a word, this poem smells. Like a bad translation from an unknown language, faux naif, sentimental, Poetry with a capital P. Paul Lake From paul.lake Tue May 1 00:43:39 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 23:43:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ondaatje poem Message-ID: On second thought, this poem reminds me of a line by a cartoon character my kids watch: Johnny Bravo. "Hey, you smell pretty. Wanna smell me?" Paul Lake From Rsgwynn1 Tue May 1 11:52:20 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 11:52:20 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Ondaatje Message-ID: <104.2b1d6c8.282035b4@cs.com> In a message dated 5/1/2001 10:49:41 AM Central Daylight Time, paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: > In a word, this poem smells. Like a bad translation from an unknown > language, faux naif, sentimental, Poetry with a capital P. > > Paul Lake means, Poetry with a capital PU. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Tue May 1 12:00:29 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 12:00:29 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet of the Month Message-ID: <3d.b0558cb.2820379d@cs.com> A great crime against American poetry has been committed. Check it out at: http://members.aol.com/poetrynet/month/index.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wasanthony Tue May 1 12:10:18 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 09:10:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet of the Month In-Reply-To: <3d.b0558cb.2820379d@cs.com> Message-ID: <20010501161018.13262.qmail@web12106.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > A great crime against American poetry has been committed. Check it > out at: > > http://members.aol.com/poetrynet/month/index.html > You're right. That guy looks nothing like Sam Gwynn, who I imagined looking more like Faulkner in a white suit. The internet is full of imposters! - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From aprentiss Tue May 1 12:14:15 2001 From: aprentiss (Amber Prentiss) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 12:14:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ondaatje Message-ID: Some parts deserved to be saved; others deserved to be cut. Everyone's allowed to suck sometimes, I suppose. I know it's a bad time of year for people and grousing can help reduce the pressure on the brain, but I'd like to see some poems that people really admire. I know what tepid poetry is. I know what truly bad poetry is. (It takes special talent to make something truly bad.) But what poems make you wish that you had written them? -Amber -----Original Message----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 5/1/2001 11:52 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ondaatje In a message dated 5/1/2001 10:49:41 AM Central Daylight Time, paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: In a word, this poem smells. ?Like a bad translation from an unknown language, faux naif, sentimental, Poetry with a capital P. Paul Lake means, Poetry with a capital PU. From grahamd Tue May 1 12:23:26 2001 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 11:23:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] McClanahan Message-ID: Today's feature on Poetry Daily (http://www.poems.com) is Rebecca McClanahan, a poet I think should be better known. From the PD site you can make your way, if you wish, to her home page as well as to a couple other poems archived on the web. I once wrote a tiny review of one of her books--part of a group review-- that was axed for space reasons. I'll take this opportunity to haul out the core of my remarks: ======================== The author's note on Rebecca McClanahan's *The Intersection of X and Y* informs us that it is her third collection, which is not surprising: this is a confident, mature voice taking up issues of love and family life, for the most part, with quiet skill and rueful wisdom. She is at her best in poems of romantic relationship, as in "To the Absent Wife of the Beautiful Poet at the Writer's Conference," "First Husband," or "Hello Love." "Sidekick," a somewhat uncharacteristic piece, reminds me of no one so much as William Trowbridge, as she writes in praise of classic American second-bananas: This one is for Barney Fife and Barney Rubble, for Ed and Trixie, for Ethel and Fred, the straight man, ploy, the wooden decoy bobbing, back-up singers with their benign doo-wops, and the boy in the back of the choir who is asked to just please mouth the words. It must be said that for the most part in her poems she rarely coins memorable phrases or causes you to admire a single line. Her diction is simple, her lines long, her rhythms tending toward the prosy end of the free verse spectrum. But this transparency of style is in the service of poems which often work like good fiction, layering detail upon detail in subtle and satisfying abundance. For this reason, it is hard to select representative excerpts. Here in full is one of the shorter poems in the book, "Infant Hill, Elmwood Cemetery," which will have to serve as example of her characteristic strategies: In the cartography of grown-up plots, six feet the measure of a man, it is difficult to fit a playpen fence, expensive to mow the uneven spaces between. So on this hillside between public housing's dusty porches and the interstate, the babies are planted together. A truck rumbles past, bequeathing to the asphalt slab the wrappings of a tire outlasting its second chance. On the fence, honeysuckle and wild roses entangle in the perennial lust of summer, and a young girl walks the frontage road alone, her hand resting on a white shirt shrouding a belly that has swelled beyond expectation. It is always a surprise, the seed that sprouts. Always a surprise to bury an infant. What we mourn is a heart that had barely stuttered, a blossoming petal of lung, yet we must name him someone, if only Infant Son of Sharon and Tim. This is enough. Any more might sink the memory deep as these stones promising too much: John Fitzgerald, Malcolm, George Washington Carver the Fourth. The newer graves are a comfort, soap opera's brief bubble--Tiffany, Brittany, Jeremy, Hope, names interchangeable as this row of identical stone lambs grazing atop graves weedy with forgetfulness. And here is a death too fresh for a marker, except a profusion of blue carnations and a day-old helium balloon with a few breaths left, an exhausted valentine someone stood in line at the grocery store to buy. [fr. *The Intersection of X and Y* (Copper Beech, 1996)] Now of course if you can't write a creditable poem about a graveyard for infants, then you're not much of a poet. But McClanahan takes on this set piece with entirely characteristic tact. At every opportunity for bathos or melodrama, she surprises me by opting for clear-eyed observation rather than emotional underlining. In touches like those names lifted from soap operas, she captures the strangeness of the scene with wonderful economy. In details like those cast-off retreads on the interstate, she discovers an apt symbol without violating her scrupulous realism. In this kind of move she can resemble Elizabeth Bishop, another poet of marvelous tact and copious detail. At her best, McClanahan deserves the comparison. ======================== David Graham __________________ David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu __________________ From eselinge Tue May 1 12:50:36 2001 From: eselinge (Eric Selinger) Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 11:50:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Call for Papers (or Proposals) on Ronald Johnson Message-ID: Hello, everyone. I'm currently co-editing a collection of essays on the poet Ronald Johnson. Although the book is filling up nicely, we're still interested in hearing from potential contributors. If you have an essay you're itching to write on RJ's work--especially on the earlier poetry, or the concrete poems, but we're open to offers--please contact me directly at eselinge at wppost.depaul.edu. Best, EMS From moira_russell Tue May 1 13:55:16 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 09:55:16 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet of the Month Message-ID: >A great crime against American poetry has been committed. Check it out at: > >http://members.aol.com/poetrynet/month/index.html *Congratulations*, Sam you thief you. It is great to see "Cleante" available on-line. But shouldn't the site say your book is already out, so people can snap it up? Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From halvard Tue May 1 14:08:54 2001 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 14:08:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lynda Schor & Jane Lazarre reading tonight--May 1 Message-ID: Last-minute reminder: If you're in the NYC area, Lynda Schor and Jane Lazarre will be reading at Barnes & Noble, 240 E. 86th St., New York, NY 10028, tonight, Tuesday, May 1, at 7:30 p.m. Both readers are contributors to *Mother Reader: Essential Writings on Motherhood*, published by Seven Stories Press and edited by Moyra Davey, who will also participate in the reading/discussion. Store contact: Frances Kelly--212-794-1962 From JforJames Tue May 1 17:08:10 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 17:08:10 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] The Public Life of American Poetry Message-ID: <31.1427c938.28207fba@aol.com> From halvard Tue May 1 17:25:13 2001 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 17:25:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] FW: Sugar Mule issue 7 is out Message-ID: You'll find work by both Burt Kimmelman and me in this issue. Hal "Flotsam, please, and a side order of jetsam." Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson > Subject: issue 7 is out > > be sure to type the www > > in > > www.sugarmule.com From jdavis Tue May 1 17:59:38 2001 From: jdavis (Jordan Davis) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 17:59:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] 20th c. summer In-Reply-To: <104.2b1d6c8.282035b4@cs.com> Message-ID: Amber - Ditch English. Read everything you can find in French and modern Greek. Albiach Apollinaire Breton Cendrars Cesaire Eluard Jouve Mallarme Perse Ponge Reverdy Sarraute Senghor Angelaki-Rooke Cavafy Elytis Ritsos Seferis just some names - happy summer. Jordan From moira_russell Tue May 1 18:29:48 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 14:29:48 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] McClanahan Message-ID: David Graham wrote: >she can resemble Elizabeth Bishop, another poet of marvelous tact and >copious detail. At her best, McClanahan deserves the comparison. With her family history, Elizabeth Bishop would hardly have written "Always a surprise to bury an infant." I don't think she would have piled on the agony with that exhausted valentine in the very last line either. >Now of course if you can't write a creditable poem about a graveyard for >infants, then you're not much of a poet. What? Was there some boomlet in poetry about infant graveyards I missed recently? Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From Cadaly Tue May 1 19:38:45 2001 From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 19:38:45 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 1926 Message-ID: On the other hand, the year 1926 alone brought into the world W. D. Snodgrass, A. R. Ammons, James Merrill, Robert Creeley, Allen Ginsberg, Frank O'Hara, Paul Blackburn, and Robert Bly. The next year, 1927, added John Ashbery, W. S. Merwin, and James Wright. Amazing. Absolutely no women born those years? Rgds, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Tue May 1 21:29:21 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 21:29:21 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] COLLAGE, MONTAGE, ASSEMBLING: ENGLISH LANGUAGE POETRY Message-ID: Nicked from Brit Poets list... Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 14:01:05 +0100 From: cris cheek Subject: more news sure you'd all be wanting to rush to another conference. Lookis interesting though COLLAGE, MONTAGE, ASSEMBLING: ENGLISH LANGUAGE POETRY Groupe de Recherche Inter-universitaire sur la Posie anglophone (GRIP) UFR d'ETUDES ANGLOPHONES UNIVERSITE PARIS 7- DENIS DIDEROT 10, rue Charles V, 75004 PARIS 14th-15th JUNE 2002 The object of this conference is certain forms of " making", a making that can concern individual poetic texts , series of poetic texts (collections, selections, anthologies ...) or works that are mixed in that they use, for example, non-poetic material (prose, non illustrative visual material ....). It works from a series of metaphors which all raise the central question of fragmentation and articulation. This double movement could be analyzed from a historical, genetic, metrical, or syntactic point of view, or by examining the articulation of themes, or the points of those institutions that construct canons, distinguish genres, and periods. The conference hopes to raise a series of aesthetic problems: - the use, in critical texts, of technical terms from architecture, painting, cinema, music, photography and " engineering" (in, for example, notions like " play" as it is used in " the parts had more play than was strictly necessary" ) - internal procedures like repetition, irony, lay-out, " pattern poems", " visual poetry", " concrete poetry", the functioning of tropes like conceit and simile, " seaming", " quilting", the problem of edges (frayed/masked etc...) - the problem of frontiers (watertight?; porous?...) between the poetic text and " foreign" material (notes, prose, quotations in a foreign language, " found objects" ...). - certain notions like the heterogeneous, combination, parataxis ... A selection of papers will be published in the Cahiers Charles V after the conference. Proposals in French or in English (200 words for a 25 minute paper) to be sent to Professor Paul Volsik (at the above address) before the end of October 2001, decision on acceptance by the scientific committee (GRIP) in November 2001, confirmation in December 2001. From Rsgwynn1 Tue May 1 22:18:08 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 22:18:08 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet of the Month Message-ID: <18.c27b862.2820c860@cs.com> I sent this address out this morning and it seemed to work fine on my computer. However, several people have told me that they get the page with Anthony Lombardy, last month's poet. Ah, sweet mysteries of cyber-space! http://members.aol.com/poetrynet/month/index.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wjbat Wed May 2 00:16:01 2001 From: wjbat (Wendy Battin) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 23:16:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why does contemporary American poetry suck? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010501231601.001099@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> Which American poetry are we talking about? We've gotten close to pure chaos now, which is perhaps not a bad thing. The Pulitzers and AWP and the Buffalo conglomerate notwithstanding, there's a lot of good work and a lot of lousy work being published here. "Boring and predictable" sums up most poems from all schools. Is there a specific question embedded in all these posts, and if there is, would somebody articulate it for me? Wendy Amber Prentiss wrote: >However, some of the complaints I've read are more along the lines of saying >that American poetry isn't punchy enough and has become too safe in its >self-observations. In short, that it's boring and predictable. Boring isn't >so much a formal problem as a content and language problem. Of course, a >remedy to sheer boredom would be to see more voices in print. Some aren't >decring democratization; some seem to beg for it. >-Amber From halvard Tue May 1 23:17:54 2001 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 23:17:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 1926 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On the other hand, the year 1926 alone brought into the world W. D. Snodgrass, A. R. Ammons, James Merrill, Robert Creeley, Allen Ginsberg, Frank O'Hara, Paul Blackburn, and Robert Bly. The next year, 1927, added John Ashbery, W. S. Merwin, and James Wright. Amazing. Absolutely no women born those years? Rgds, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net Maybe not, Catherine. Do *you* know of any? I've checked a couple more anthologies and found a couple more old boys for '26 (Stanley Moss, David Wagoner, John Woods) and a few for '27 (Larry Eigner, Galway Kinnell, Philip Lamantia), but still no women. Nancy Sullivan's close, but she wasn't born until '29. Hal "Between the manifold splendors of anger, I watch a door slam like the corsage of a flower or the erasers of schoolchildren." --Andre Breton Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From grahamd Tue May 1 23:24:39 2001 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 22:24:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 1926 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: 1926 was kind of an annus mirabilis, I think. As it happens, some high-powered women poets fall to either side, e.g.: Swenson 1919 Guest 1920 Van Duyn 1921 Levertov 1923 Kumin 1925 Kizer 1925 Sexton 1928 Rich 1929 Plath 1932 DiPrima 1934 Wakoski 1937 But I can't, offhand, think of a single woman of comparable reputation born in 1926 or 1927. What poets were *you* thinking of, Catherine? David Graham ______________________ >On the other hand, the year 1926 alone brought into the world >W. D. Snodgrass, A. R. Ammons, James Merrill, Robert Creeley, >Allen Ginsberg, Frank O'Hara, Paul Blackburn, and Robert Bly. >The next year, 1927, added John Ashbery, W. S. Merwin, >and James Wright. > > > >Amazing. Absolutely no women born those years? > >Rgds, >Catherine Daly >cadaly at pacbell.net __________________ David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu __________________ From halvard Tue May 1 23:35:52 2001 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 23:35:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 1926 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This site doesn't help much with years of birth, but there's a lot of stuff it does do. Check it out. http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/calendar.htm Hal "Flotsam, please, and a side order of jetsam." Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From mackechnie Tue May 1 23:39:24 2001 From: mackechnie (Russ MacKechnie) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 23:39:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Anything but Tepid. . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > But what poems make you wish that you had written them? With all due respect to Jordan's foreign laundry list, Amber, there's an answer to your question as close as Hartford, Connecticut---an answer that will provide you with a glorious summer redolent of what poetry---American poetry---is all about. Dig deep into your pockets and shell out the $30 or so for the Library of America's _Wallace Stevens Collected Poetry and Prose_ edited by Frank Kermode and Joan Richardson. If I am wrong about Stevens's effect on you as a poet, a poetry lover, a human being, I promise to take the volume off your hands and reimburse you for the full purchase price. The poem I wish above all that I'd written? "A Rabbit as King of the Ghosts." Then "Final Soliloquy of the Interior Paramour." Then "Domination of Black." Then "Sunday Morning." Then "The Auroras of Autumn." Then . . . . Russ MacKechnie From halvard Tue May 1 23:48:32 2001 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 23:48:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: 1926 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Actually a Google search of the site below did turn up a woman poet born in 1926, a well-known one too-- Ingeborg Bachmann. But we were looking on the western shores of the Atlantic, weren't we? Hal > This site doesn't help much with years of birth, but there's > a lot of stuff it does do. Check it out. > > http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/calendar.htm > > Hal "Flotsam, please, and a side order of jetsam." > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards Wed May 2 00:20:15 2001 From: tadrichards (OTIS RICHARDS) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 00:20:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] McClanahan References: Message-ID: <006f01c0d2bf$3134bc20$6401a8c0@ibm25310> > > What? Was there some boomlet in poetry about infant graveyards I missed > recently? > > Moira Russell > Seattle, WA > > > There's always "Home Burial." Tad _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards Wed May 2 00:25:24 2001 From: tadrichards (OTIS RICHARDS) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 00:25:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Anything but Tepid. . . . References: Message-ID: <009901c0d2bf$e9085dc0$6401a8c0@ibm25310> ...The "Comedian as the Letter C" and "Sea Surface Full of Clouds." Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russ MacKechnie" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 11:39 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Anything but Tepid. . . . > > But what poems make you wish that you had written them? > > With all due respect to Jordan's foreign laundry list, Amber, there's > an answer to your question as close as Hartford, Connecticut---an answer > that will provide you with a glorious summer redolent of what > poetry---American poetry---is all about. Dig deep into your pockets and > shell out the $30 or so for the Library of America's _Wallace Stevens > Collected Poetry and Prose_ edited by Frank Kermode and Joan Richardson. > If I am wrong about Stevens's effect on you as a poet, a poetry lover, a > human being, I promise to take the volume off your hands and reimburse > you for the full purchase price. The poem I wish above all that I'd > written? "A Rabbit as King of the Ghosts." Then "Final Soliloquy of > the Interior Paramour." Then "Domination of Black." Then "Sunday > Morning." Then "The Auroras of Autumn." Then . . . . > > Russ MacKechnie > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From aprentiss Wed May 2 00:32:23 2001 From: aprentiss (Amber Prentiss) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 00:32:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why does contemporary American poetry suck? Message-ID: Nope! It's an invitation to spout. The original post (qtd. at the end), other than the inflammatory title, asked two questions: one, does all this grousing about contemporary poetry have merit - does it really suck? If it does, then why? I like to probe people's discontent. But here are some specific questions if you want 'em: Does this grumpy opinion that contemporary American poetry is more horrible than usual really come out of bewilderment in the face of a plurality of voices or discontent with what they think these voices tend to say? And, to ask another question, what is this plurality? Who's doing what in it? What makes it chaotic? Is it chaotic? Does that matter? -Amber Here's the post: Thought that might get your attention. I keep running across essays in different places such as Rattle http://www.rattle.com/rattle13/poetry/mmadias.html), Painted Bride Quarterly (http://pbq.rutgers.edu/issues/65/ConnellyEssay.htm), a four-year-old issue of New York Quarterly (print), and the grouchy Boston Comment (http://webdelsol.com/f-bostoncomment.htm), whose author even quotes everyone's favorite Mr. Logan. Are these just old-timers' I-remember-the-days crotchets, or is there really some sort of mad poetry blight? Basically, these essays say "contemporary American poetry really, really sucks." Does it? Why? -Amber Prentiss -----Original Message----- From: Wendy Battin To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 5/2/01 12:16 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why does contemporary American poetry suck? Which American poetry are we talking about? We've gotten close to pure chaos now, which is perhaps not a bad thing. The Pulitzers and AWP and the Buffalo conglomerate notwithstanding, there's a lot of good work and a lot of lousy work being published here. "Boring and predictable" sums up most poems from all schools. Is there a specific question embedded in all these posts, and if there is, would somebody articulate it for me? Wendy Amber Prentiss wrote: >However, some of the complaints I've read are more along the lines of saying >that American poetry isn't punchy enough and has become too safe in its >self-observations. In short, that it's boring and predictable. Boring isn't >so much a formal problem as a content and language problem. Of course, a >remedy to sheer boredom would be to see more voices in print. Some aren't >decring democratization; some seem to beg for it. >-Amber _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From DICK Tue May 1 19:02:59 2001 From: DICK (DICK at watson.ibm.com) Date: Tue, 1 May 01 19:02:59 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon Message-ID: <200105012304.TAA24260@sp1n189at0.watson.ibm.com> It happens I'm reading Bloom's book right now, and I'm totally engrossed at the enormous breadth of his reading, understanding, and ability to make sweeping comparisons and crossreferences, and to communicate his enthusiasms clearly and gracefully. I'm just amazed that David Graham can use words like "poverty of imagination" and "ludicrous" when speaking of Harold Bloom. David Graham wrote: >>In this regard, the poverty of imagination in a critic like Harold Bloom is >>really stunning, I think. He has no ears for so many different kinds of >>contemporary poetry (especially those based in the oral tradition) that his >>particular brand of elitism just seems ludicrous. >> Richard From wasanthony Wed May 2 11:50:51 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 08:50:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] "A Libelous Lexicon" Message-ID: <20010502155051.63504.qmail@web12104.mail.yahoo.com> Thought this group would appreciate this. It's from Greg Glazner's "Countermeasures," < http://www.csf.edu/countermeasures/lexicon.html> - Jim A LIBELOUS LEXICON Installation Art: 1. Rooms that you would not normally enter without a hard hat. 2. Amusement parks minus the amusement. 3. Poorly-made structures that exist to justify a manifesto. 4. Where the vacuous and the indignant conspire to depict the obvious. Performance Art: When a person of limited talents, who can neither write, act, sing, dance, nor play a musical instrument, stands in front of an audience of limited sense and fails at all five endeavors at once. The Workshop Poem: Forty well-crafted lines specifically about me which I insist are also vaguely about you. The New Formalist Poem: Forty well-crafted, rhymed and metered lines specifically about me which I insist are also specifically about you. Deconstruction: The art of dismantling someone else's text and using the materials of that text to construct a far superior text of your own while maintaining that nothing can be built of anything. Artistic Elitism: Trying to do something well, thereby oppressing those who would rather not. ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From moira_russell Wed May 2 12:02:55 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 08:02:55 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Merrill, Wealth, etc. Message-ID: Paul Lake wrote: >I have to admit, Moira, that I once did let my class resentment of Stevens >affect my judgment of his work, though,it wasn't only his moneyed ease that >bothered me, but how it affected his attitude about certain subjects. My >article, which appeared originally in the Wallace Stevens Journal, follows, >for anyone interested. (well-written essay snipped for reasons of space) Paul, Thank you for sending the essay to the list; I do like to see meditations on poets which are a little longer than what seems usual in poetry criticism. I'm sorry I haven't responded till now -- the email has been getting a bit backed up. Your comparison of Stevens with Shelley is very interesting -- not something I would think of on my own but nearly irresistible when proposed -- but I guess I don't see the reason exactly why you would see him as a Romantic. Stevens' removal from the quotidian, from the ability to enter into the "I-Thou" relationship, seems much more Modernistic to me. I also have to admit I think there is something of a cult for the quotidian, the everyday, the mundane, these days, and perhaps in poetry at least this is an over-reaction to some of the overly wrought formal poems of the Fifties. I think Randall Jarrell also had similar concerns about Stevens -- "He sees the bright side of every dark shadow," I believe is how he put it. (Or was that referring to Richard Wilbur?) Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From grahamd Wed May 2 12:37:48 2001 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 11:37:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon Message-ID: For what it's worth, I was thinking specifically not of Bloom's *The Western Canon* but of his diatribe, "They have the numbers; we, the heights," which introduced his Best of the Best American antho. That essay is available online, along with a number of responses to it: http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR23.2/bloom.html I'm amazed by Bloom's erudition, too. And I've found him an invaluable critic of the Romantics. But from where I sit, his taste in contemporary poetry is uncomfortably narrow, since it excludes a great deal of poetry that I admire. I particularly like what David Mura said in response to Bloom's essay: http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR23.3/mura.html Here are the opening paragraph's of Mura's essay: _____________________ In the world according to Harold Bloom, there are those who occupy the heights of objective judgment and the barbarians below. Or, as Bloom would have it, what he reads with pleasure and profit must possess lasting aesthetic value. Those who do not see that value have been blinded to the true purpose of literature by a political or ideological agenda. In contrast, Bloom's judgment has nothing to do with his race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnic origin, or politics. He possesses no extra-literary agenda, no personal biases. If we point out that all the writers he holds up in admiration are white and most of them male, we are replacing objective literary criteria with sociology. I am not convinced that Bloom's sight is so unequivocally accurate and god-like. When he proclaims that his opponents are entirely preoccupied with the race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnic origin, and political purpose of the would-be poet, I see either a misunderstanding or a mischaracterization of their arguments. Characteristics such as race and gender surely suggest areas of study that might aid in understanding and evaluating a poet. Moreover, for certain poets, such study might be required to appreciate fully their aesthetic value. It does not follow that matters of technique or analyses of form should be dismissed or denied preeminent importance-though even here one might certainly find instances where the forms a poet employs derive from aspects in their background. At the same time, Bloom would probably maintain that the critic's own background or identity ought to be irrelevant. Or at least, that his must be. Perhaps Harold Bloom is special. But for myself and every other critic I've encountered, such factors are relevant. It's not a question of whether we carry prejudices and blinders within our psyches, but what kind. But I suppose that for Harold Bloom, I'm just one of those (critics and poets) who have politicized literature and broken from that Edenic paradise where literature possessed no political designs or effects and existed in a separate realm altogether. According to Bloom, remnants of that apolitical period existed before the onslaught of the sixties and the resulting deterioration of culture. Yet even in the late seventies, when I was a graduate student, the curriculum I studied would have probably met Harold Bloom's approval. Other than a handful of poems by Amiri Baraka, all the poets were white, and the overwhelming majority were white males. According to Bloom, then, I studied the apolitical canon. That's not how I remember it. Certain professors and critics such as James Dickey implied or explicitly stated that women were less capable than men of writing great literature (the logic here: if women were more capable, then of course we'd be studying them). Similarly, I was told outright and subtly that to identify myself as an Japanese American or Asian American writer or a writer of color was to relegate myself to a literary ghetto-- to enter literature through a back door affirmative action program. This only reinforced the cultural lessons I had learned growing up in an all white suburb, wanting to assimilate and erase my difference, wanting to disassociate myself from other Japanese-Americans or people of color. I told myself I wanted to be judged as an individual, for my own merits. What I knew subconsciously was that I really wanted to be white. And nothing in my literary training through grad school ever led me to question this desire or enabled me to formulate any other understanding of my identity. _______________________________ David Graham >It happens I'm reading Bloom's book right now, and I'm >totally engrossed at the enormous breadth of his reading, >understanding, and ability to make sweeping comparisons and >crossreferences, and to communicate his enthusiasms clearly >and gracefully. > >I'm just amazed that David Graham can use words like >"poverty of imagination" and "ludicrous" when speaking of >Harold Bloom. > > >David Graham wrote: >>>In this regard, the poverty of imagination in a critic like Harold Bloom is >>>really stunning, I think. He has no ears for so many different kinds of >>>contemporary poetry (especially those based in the oral tradition) that his >>>particular brand of elitism just seems ludicrous. >>> > >Richard __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From halvard Wed May 2 12:50:51 2001 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 12:50:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And Bloom would probably make a passingly good Falstaff. When *is* that performance, or has it already been? Anyone know? Hal "For me the Internet . . . is like the Congo. I know it exists, but I will never go there." --Harold Bloom Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson > For what it's worth, I was thinking specifically not of Bloom's *The > Western Canon* but of his diatribe, "They have the numbers; we, the > heights," which introduced his Best of the Best American antho. > > That essay is available online, along with a number of responses to it: > > http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR23.2/bloom.html > > I'm amazed by Bloom's erudition, too. And I've found him an invaluable > critic of the Romantics. > > But from where I sit, his taste in contemporary poetry is uncomfortably > narrow, since it excludes a great deal of poetry that I admire. I > particularly like what David Mura said in response to Bloom's essay: > > http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR23.3/mura.html > > Here are the opening paragraph's of Mura's essay: > > _____________________ > In the world according to Harold Bloom, there are those who occupy the > heights of objective judgment and the barbarians below. Or, as Bloom would > have it, what he reads with pleasure and profit must possess lasting > aesthetic value. Those who do not see that value have been blinded to the > true purpose of literature by a political or ideological agenda. In > contrast, Bloom's judgment has nothing to do with his race, gender, sexual > orientation, ethnic origin, or politics. He possesses no extra-literary > agenda, no personal biases. If we point out that all the writers he holds > up in admiration are white and most of them male, we are replacing > objective literary criteria with sociology. > > I am not convinced that Bloom's sight is so unequivocally accurate and > god-like. When he proclaims that his opponents are entirely preoccupied > with the race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnic origin, and political > purpose of the would-be poet, I see either a misunderstanding or a > mischaracterization of their arguments. Characteristics such as race and > gender surely suggest areas of study that might aid in understanding and > evaluating a poet. Moreover, for certain poets, such study might be > required to appreciate fully their aesthetic value. It does not follow that > matters of technique or analyses of form should be dismissed or denied > preeminent importance-though even here one might certainly find instances > where the forms a poet employs derive from aspects in their background. > > At the same time, Bloom would probably maintain that the critic's own > background or identity ought to be irrelevant. Or at least, that his must > be. Perhaps Harold Bloom is special. But for myself and every other critic > I've encountered, such factors are relevant. It's not a question of whether > we carry prejudices and blinders within our psyches, but what kind. But I > suppose that for Harold Bloom, I'm just one of those (critics and poets) > who have politicized literature and broken from that Edenic paradise where > literature possessed no political designs or effects and existed in a > separate realm altogether. > > According to Bloom, remnants of that apolitical period existed before the > onslaught of the sixties and the resulting deterioration of culture. Yet > even in the late seventies, when I was a graduate student, the curriculum I > studied would have probably met Harold Bloom's approval. Other than a > handful of poems by Amiri Baraka, all the poets were white, and the > overwhelming majority were white males. According to Bloom, then, I studied > the apolitical canon. That's not how I remember it. Certain professors and > critics such as James Dickey implied or explicitly stated that women were > less capable than men of writing great literature (the logic here: if women > were more capable, then of course we'd be studying them). Similarly, I was > told outright and subtly that to identify myself as an Japanese American or > Asian American writer or a writer of color was to relegate myself to a > literary ghetto-- to enter literature through a back door affirmative > action program. This only reinforced the cultural lessons I had learned > growing up in an all white suburb, wanting to assimilate and erase my > difference, wanting to disassociate myself from other Japanese-Americans or > people of color. I told myself I wanted to be judged as an individual, for > my own merits. What I knew subconsciously was that I really wanted to be > white. And nothing in my literary training through grad school ever led me > to question this desire or enabled me to formulate any other understanding > of my identity. > _______________________________ > > David Graham > > >It happens I'm reading Bloom's book right now, and I'm > >totally engrossed at the enormous breadth of his reading, > >understanding, and ability to make sweeping comparisons and > >crossreferences, and to communicate his enthusiasms clearly > >and gracefully. > > > >I'm just amazed that David Graham can use words like > >"poverty of imagination" and "ludicrous" when speaking of > >Harold Bloom. > > > > > >David Graham wrote: > >>>In this regard, the poverty of imagination in a critic like Harold Bloom is > >>>really stunning, I think. He has no ears for so many different kinds of > >>>contemporary poetry (especially those based in the oral tradition) that his > >>>particular brand of elitism just seems ludicrous. > >>> > > > >Richard > > > __________________ > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > __________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From mmagee Wed May 2 12:57:41 2001 From: mmagee (Michael Magee) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 12:57:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon In-Reply-To: from "David Graham" at May 2, 2001 11:37:48 am Message-ID: <200105021657.MAA13757@dept.english.upenn.edu> David, thanks very much for this. I've been, along the way, a very serious reader of Bloom, particularly AGON, but I've read it all. Yes he's erudite, abjectly so. And the idea of Bloom as agendaless is beyond dumb. Anyone who knows AGON well, to say nothing of THE ANXIETY OF INFLUENCE and A MAP OF MISREADING, knows that Freud looms behind all, informs every aesthetic choice, every literary family tree drawn, every description of tradition and the individual talent. For "influences" there's the early Freud; for properly deconstructive, "radical" readings of texts there's the Freud of BEYOND THE PLEASURE PRINCIPLE. It's all a little bit interesting, tho more predictable the more you wade into it. But ultimately it feels too much like a Victorian parlor game for me, or a rather sophisticated game of Jeopardy, if you like. And as you say, the number of great writers he can't read at all would fill a very large book. -m. According to David Graham: > > For what it's worth, I was thinking specifically not of Bloom's *The > Western Canon* but of his diatribe, "They have the numbers; we, the > heights," which introduced his Best of the Best American antho. > > That essay is available online, along with a number of responses to it: > > http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR23.2/bloom.html > > I'm amazed by Bloom's erudition, too. And I've found him an invaluable > critic of the Romantics. > > But from where I sit, his taste in contemporary poetry is uncomfortably > narrow, since it excludes a great deal of poetry that I admire. I > particularly like what David Mura said in response to Bloom's essay: > > http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR23.3/mura.html > > Here are the opening paragraph's of Mura's essay: > > _____________________ > In the world according to Harold Bloom, there are those who occupy the > heights of objective judgment and the barbarians below. Or, as Bloom would > have it, what he reads with pleasure and profit must possess lasting > aesthetic value. Those who do not see that value have been blinded to the > true purpose of literature by a political or ideological agenda. In > contrast, Bloom's judgment has nothing to do with his race, gender, sexual > orientation, ethnic origin, or politics. He possesses no extra-literary > agenda, no personal biases. If we point out that all the writers he holds > up in admiration are white and most of them male, we are replacing > objective literary criteria with sociology. > > I am not convinced that Bloom's sight is so unequivocally accurate and > god-like. When he proclaims that his opponents are entirely preoccupied > with the race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnic origin, and political > purpose of the would-be poet, I see either a misunderstanding or a > mischaracterization of their arguments. Characteristics such as race and > gender surely suggest areas of study that might aid in understanding and > evaluating a poet. Moreover, for certain poets, such study might be > required to appreciate fully their aesthetic value. It does not follow that > matters of technique or analyses of form should be dismissed or denied > preeminent importance-though even here one might certainly find instances > where the forms a poet employs derive from aspects in their background. > > At the same time, Bloom would probably maintain that the critic's own > background or identity ought to be irrelevant. Or at least, that his must > be. Perhaps Harold Bloom is special. But for myself and every other critic > I've encountered, such factors are relevant. It's not a question of whether > we carry prejudices and blinders within our psyches, but what kind. But I > suppose that for Harold Bloom, I'm just one of those (critics and poets) > who have politicized literature and broken from that Edenic paradise where > literature possessed no political designs or effects and existed in a > separate realm altogether. > > According to Bloom, remnants of that apolitical period existed before the > onslaught of the sixties and the resulting deterioration of culture. Yet > even in the late seventies, when I was a graduate student, the curriculum I > studied would have probably met Harold Bloom's approval. Other than a > handful of poems by Amiri Baraka, all the poets were white, and the > overwhelming majority were white males. According to Bloom, then, I studied > the apolitical canon. That's not how I remember it. Certain professors and > critics such as James Dickey implied or explicitly stated that women were > less capable than men of writing great literature (the logic here: if women > were more capable, then of course we'd be studying them). Similarly, I was > told outright and subtly that to identify myself as an Japanese American or > Asian American writer or a writer of color was to relegate myself to a > literary ghetto-- to enter literature through a back door affirmative > action program. This only reinforced the cultural lessons I had learned > growing up in an all white suburb, wanting to assimilate and erase my > difference, wanting to disassociate myself from other Japanese-Americans or > people of color. I told myself I wanted to be judged as an individual, for > my own merits. What I knew subconsciously was that I really wanted to be > white. And nothing in my literary training through grad school ever led me > to question this desire or enabled me to formulate any other understanding > of my identity. > _______________________________ > > David Graham > > >It happens I'm reading Bloom's book right now, and I'm > >totally engrossed at the enormous breadth of his reading, > >understanding, and ability to make sweeping comparisons and > >crossreferences, and to communicate his enthusiasms clearly > >and gracefully. > > > >I'm just amazed that David Graham can use words like > >"poverty of imagination" and "ludicrous" when speaking of > >Harold Bloom. > > > > > >David Graham wrote: > >>>In this regard, the poverty of imagination in a critic like Harold Bloom is > >>>really stunning, I think. He has no ears for so many different kinds of > >>>contemporary poetry (especially those based in the oral tradition) that his > >>>particular brand of elitism just seems ludicrous. > >>> > > > >Richard > > > __________________ > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > __________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From paul.lake Wed May 2 01:49:40 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 00:49:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] When first your eye I eyed Message-ID: >The New Formalist Poem: Forty well-crafted, rhymed and metered lines >specifically about me which I insist are also specifically about you. Greg Glazner has clearly missed the boat on this one. Below are two poems by Sam Gwynn lifted from the link he provided yesterday. They're both exemplary in being about something beside the poet. Paul Lake At Rose's Range Old Gladys, in lime polyester slacks, Might rate a laugh until she puts her weight Squarely behind the snubnosed .38, Draws down and pulls. The bulldog muzzle cracks And barks six times, and six black daisies flower Dead in the heart of Saddam's silhouette. She turns aside, empties, reloads, gets set And fires again. This goes on for an hour. Later, we pass the time at the front door Where she sits smoking, waiting for the friend Who drives her places after dark: _You know, Earl's free next month. He says he wants some more Of what she's got, and she's my daughter so I reckon there's just one way this can end_. Why They Love Us ?????????????????????? Vanna, 1987?-1995 Dogs love us uncomplainingly because They see us in a way we never do. They don't have sense enough to see our flaws The way we fear our lovers' fangs and claws. Blondi loved Hitler; Checkers, Nixon too. They love us uncomplainingly because When swatted with the news for muddy paws Or chewing on that Bruno Magli shoe They don't have sense enough to see our flaws. We live by common sense and logic's laws: With dogs, forget it. Even if they knew They love us uncomplainingly because They're idiots, they still won't drop their jaws And say, "Duh, you were mean to me. We're through." They don't have sense enough to see our flaws. Thank god for that. A big round of applause For what can sniff your ass and still love you. Dogs love us uncomplainingly because They don't have sense enough to see our flaws. From moira_russell Wed May 2 13:17:57 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 09:17:57 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] When first your eye I eyed Message-ID: Paul wrote: >Greg Glazner has clearly missed the boat on this one. Below are two poems >by Sam Gwynn lifted from the link he provided yesterday. They're both >exemplary in being about something beside the poet. I think you are right about Sam (especially with that wonderful long poem now online, "Cleante...."), who (he said once) has his students write dramatic monologs specifically about Other People, but that item did give me a chuckle (apart from the rhetorical repetition) thinking of poets like Marilyn Hacker, Molly Peacock, and so on (I know I have been harping on them recently, but they spring to mind as poets I like). One could possibly argue that all art is specific and fails as art when it doesn't reach to the general -- that is, when it can't be appreciated by someone who hasn't had exactly the same experience -- anyway. But that may be veering back into the autobiographical/fiction/fact/"why not say what really happened" thread. (And I can't resist: what about the Robert Lowell book, "The Dolphin," which created such a scandal when it was published because it was about him leaving his wife and child for another woman, and used Elizabeth Hardwick's actual letters to him ((as well as at least some notes and phrases from his future wife))? Yet Lowell deliberately rearranged the chronological events to make a better story within the book, as Sexton apparently did with "Live or Die," her Pulitzer-prize winning book. But who is going to know this without reading Lowell's or Sexton's biographies? And how is a "character" with your name and experiences different from you standing in for yourself?) Apart from all that, Sam does show a wonderful Alec Guinness-like ability to speak near-perfectly in the voices of others, and that is another reason to buy his book, which is one of the most packed and rewarding volumes I have read in a long time. (Plug, plug.) Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From aprentiss Wed May 2 13:21:11 2001 From: aprentiss (Amber Prentiss) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 13:21:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] When first your eye I eyed Message-ID: I don't think he was trying to make the boat. It is the kind of poem that seems to need a broad brush, and it is also a poem that is trying to be equal opportunity offensive. Of course there are poems and poets that escape the handy categories, but subtleties often have to be sacrificed for laughs. -Amber -----Original Message----- From: Paul Lake To: New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 5/2/2001 1:49 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] When first your eye I eyed >The New Formalist Poem: Forty well-crafted, rhymed and metered lines >specifically about me which I insist are also specifically about you. Greg Glazner has clearly missed the boat on this one. Below are two poems by Sam Gwynn lifted from the link he provided yesterday. They're both exemplary in being about something beside the poet. Paul Lake At Rose's Range Old Gladys, in lime polyester slacks, Might rate a laugh until she puts her weight Squarely behind the snubnosed .38, Draws down and pulls. The bulldog muzzle cracks And barks six times, and six black daisies flower Dead in the heart of Saddam's silhouette. She turns aside, empties, reloads, gets set And fires again. This goes on for an hour. Later, we pass the time at the front door Where she sits smoking, waiting for the friend Who drives her places after dark: _You know, Earl's free next month. He says he wants some more Of what she's got, and she's my daughter so I reckon there's just one way this can end_. Why They Love Us ?????????????????????? Vanna, 1987?-1995 Dogs love us uncomplainingly because They see us in a way we never do. They don't have sense enough to see our flaws The way we fear our lovers' fangs and claws. Blondi loved Hitler; Checkers, Nixon too. They love us uncomplainingly because When swatted with the news for muddy paws Or chewing on that Bruno Magli shoe They don't have sense enough to see our flaws. We live by common sense and logic's laws: With dogs, forget it. Even if they knew They love us uncomplainingly because They're idiots, they still won't drop their jaws And say, "Duh, you were mean to me. We're through." They don't have sense enough to see our flaws. Thank god for that. A big round of applause For what can sniff your ass and still love you. Dogs love us uncomplainingly because They don't have sense enough to see our flaws. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From moira_russell Wed May 2 13:28:50 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 09:28:50 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon Message-ID: I also appreciated David's quoting of the essay and provision of URLs, but enjoy Bloom a bit more; he is stunningly knowledgeable, and quite good in some areas, but I'm also quite aware he is, at the least, idiosyncratic, and his judgements limited (and this from someone on the unfashionable side of the Great Books camp). I read him the same way I read Yvor Winters and Randall Jarrell: I like the way he expresses himself, he makes me think, and he provides me with at the least thought-provoking ideas even if I find some of them, well, at least odd. But I really don't accept him as an "authority" -- and actually, while reading through the Great Books program itself at St. John's College, you aren't encouraged to see the literature as a single hegemonic thing filled with Authorities buttressing each other, like uniform bricks building up a wall each with exactly the same contribution. A tradition which includes everyone from Chaucer to Eliot and Shakespeare to Ibsen is diverse, too, which I think is something which gets overlooked sometimes in debates about the Canon. I actually found English studies in graduate school more stifling than progressive, and much less welcome towards free thought than my Great Books college -- for instance, there was the professor who taught a Dickens upper-level seminar and insisted on reading each and every novel, chapter, scene and word through Freud-colored glasses. That became more than a little tiresome, and even baffling, especially towards "A Christmas Carroll." Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From paul.lake Wed May 2 02:27:35 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 01:27:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens Message-ID: When the Stevens essay appeared in the Stevens journal, I heard from a few people concerning what I said. But the article is too narrow to describe my overall feelings about Stevens, which are more complex than those in the essay. I'd argue with the essay myself. There are aspects of Stevens' work I greatly admire, including his ability to illuminate abstractions. Lately, I feel less and less like writing criticism. My plan is to finish a few ideas off and then focus exclusively on poetry. Paul Lake From BobGrumman Wed May 2 13:41:03 2001 From: BobGrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 13:41:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] My Splash References: Message-ID: <3AF046AF.3108@nut-n-but.net> Amber Prentiss wrote: "Hey, Bob, you're moving on up, unless there's another Bob Grumman running around in the poetry world." As far as I know, there's only one Bob Grumman in America. "Grumman" is an uncommon surname here, though I believe more common in England. Anyway, thanks for letting me know of my big splash. I agree that Poet's Market isn't of the greatest value, but editors ARE asked to supply a short poem as a sample of what they're looking for, which seems a good idea to me, though not too helpful for editors like me who like visual poems. If they defined Schools of Poetry, and then classified publications by schools of poetry, it'd help. (Couldn't resist another salvo about what may be my main cause.) Dustbooks has a similar but much more thorough book of poetry markets--but how helpful it could be, who knows. One good thing about being mostly interested in a kind of poetry not much practiced is that it was easy for me to connect with publishers of it when I started out trying to get poems into print in the eighties. --Bob G. You're excerpted in the mostly useless Poet's > Market 2001 for a magazine whose name I can't remember but will be sure to > look for later. > > Still, it's a mostly useless book. If I actually bought a sample of every > magazine I've pondered submitting to, I'd be out hundreds of dollars. It's > not my fault that I can usually find only horrible lit magazines and/or ones > so famous that they are flooded with submissions. Bleh.. Anyway, if you > didn't know, you do now. > > -Amber From moira_russell Wed May 2 13:46:05 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 09:46:05 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens Message-ID: Probably writing more poetry, less criticism, is a good thing....even generally speaking....one poem probably does Humanity more good than a thousand critics, Pope notwithstanding. I must admit I never "got" Stevens, as I find it hard to emotionally connect to his poems and occasionally his style seems mannered. Among poets of that period (I just mean formal poetry mainly during the 50s), I actually prefer Anthony Hecht, or some Richard Wilbur. However I think Stevens is like Auden -- anyone writing poetry now has to reckon with him, so to speak. Could you maybe point me towards some of your favorite Stevens poems? I always feel when I read him I'm missing something. yrs moi >When the Stevens essay appeared in the Stevens journal, I heard from a few >people concerning what I said. But the article is too narrow to describe >my >overall feelings about Stevens, which are more complex than those in the >essay. I'd argue with the essay myself. There are aspects of Stevens' >work >I greatly admire, including his ability to illuminate abstractions. >Lately, >I feel less and less like writing criticism. My plan is to finish a few >ideas off and then focus exclusively on poetry. > >Paul Lake > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From aprentiss Wed May 2 13:52:24 2001 From: aprentiss (Amber Prentiss) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 13:52:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] My Splash Message-ID: Bob, I really, really meant this to be off-channel. -Amber -----Original Message----- From: Bob Grumman To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 5/2/2001 1:41 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] My Splash Amber Prentiss wrote: "Hey, Bob, you're moving on up, unless there's another Bob Grumman running around in the poetry world." As far as I know, there's only one Bob Grumman in America. "Grumman" is an uncommon surname here, though I believe more common in England. Anyway, thanks for letting me know of my big splash. I agree that Poet's Market isn't of the greatest value, but editors ARE asked to supply a short poem as a sample of what they're looking for, which seems a good idea to me, though not too helpful for editors like me who like visual poems. If they defined Schools of Poetry, and then classified publications by schools of poetry, it'd help. (Couldn't resist another salvo about what may be my main cause.) Dustbooks has a similar but much more thorough book of poetry markets--but how helpful it could be, who knows. One good thing about being mostly interested in a kind of poetry not much practiced is that it was easy for me to connect with publishers of it when I started out trying to get poems into print in the eighties. --Bob G. You're excerpted in the mostly useless Poet's > Market 2001 for a magazine whose name I can't remember but will be sure to > look for later. > > Still, it's a mostly useless book. If I actually bought a sample of every > magazine I've pondered submitting to, I'd be out hundreds of dollars. It's > not my fault that I can usually find only horrible lit magazines and/or ones > so famous that they are flooded with submissions. Bleh.. Anyway, if you > didn't know, you do now. > > -Amber _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From paul.lake Wed May 2 02:51:03 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 01:51:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens Message-ID: Stevens is of the great Modernist generation, born in 1879, before Eliot, Pound and Williams and 28 years before Auden. Though he wrote a lot of blank verse, he also wrote Modernist free verse. The poets of Hecht's generation, who wrote the formal verse of the 50's, are much less experimental, in a sense a reaction against high Modernism. Holly Steven's, the poet's daughter put together a good cheap selection of Stevens' poems called *The Palm at the End of the Mind,* a good place to start. Paul Lake From moira_russell Wed May 2 14:08:01 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 10:08:01 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens Message-ID: Phew, I didn't know he was that old. For some reason my mind always mashes together Stevens-Wilbur-Hecht -- perhaps the effect of reading too many anthologies. It seems I always see "Sunday Morning" right before Wilbur's frog-with-a-hobbling-hop poem, for example. I've certainly seen the book around and will pick it up, maybe as a complement to the huge Merrill book I've been immersed in. But didn't you say you saw Stevens more as a late, late Romantic than a Modernist? Moira Russell Seattle, WA Paul wrote: >Stevens is of the great Modernist generation, born in 1879, before Eliot, >Pound and Williams and 28 years before Auden. Though he wrote a lot of >blank verse, he also wrote Modernist free verse. The poets of Hecht's >generation, who wrote the formal verse of the 50's, are much less >experimental, in a sense a reaction against high Modernism. Holly >Steven's, the poet's daughter put together a good cheap selection of >Stevens' poems called *The Palm at the End of the Mind,* a good place to >start. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From Jholmes Wed May 2 14:33:02 2001 From: Jholmes (Janet Holmes) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 12:33:02 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens, Gwynn, Anastasios, etc. Message-ID: Russ, all wonderful Stevens poems, but for my money "Two Figures in Dense Violet Night" and "Long and Sluggish Lines" need to be on the list too, as well as his wonderful titles ("Tea at the Palaz of Hoon," "The Curtains in the House of the Metaphysician," "The Revolutionists Stop for Orangeade," etc.). Re: Sam Gwynn--of course his poems aren't about himself. Not for nothing did he write "The Narcissiad," which is about almost everybody else! And a long way back, in response to Anastasios's comment "I think that the 'contests' and 'fellowships' etc. make people aim their poetry at a certain poetry reading population/segment, which compromises integrity. Perhaps, I am way off base here, but it is always fascinating to me to who wins what and why. I think sometimes the economics dictate aesthetics and dilute integrity." I'm writing a talk on specifically this topic right now, and I do agree with you; I'd go so far as to say that the yearning of poets to publish in journals and anthologies also dictates the length and structure of many poems. But as editor of a press that is just instituting a contest with the hope of discovering new or underrecognized writers, I'm not willing to go so far as to decry all literary competitions. Sure, we all know of cases in which contests were won by friends or lovers of the judges (I lost two such when seeking to place my first book, though one judge sent me a "letter of encouragement" through the contest administrators separately) or former students, or whatever. Poets are just as tawdry as other humans. But I don't think one can paint contests and fellowships as necessarily bereft of integrity. (Can't afford to--nearly everything I have in print is the result of an anonymous competition.) I used to think that self-publishing was also a bad idea, but can now appreciate that it may be the only way for an "unpopular" or unusual kind of writing to see print at all (cf. Whitman, Virginia Woolf, etc.). Most will fade away unnoticed, but thank goodness for the work that really *was* genius a bit too extraordinary to surface through the usual methods. Janet Holmes ("Grade papers? Read posts? Grade papers? Read posts?") From moira_russell Wed May 2 15:10:17 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 11:10:17 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] A genuine request Message-ID: Janet, if you or anyone else could possibly "unpack" (as they say) "The Idea of Order at Key West" for me even a little bit, I'd greatly appreciate it. My reaction to that poem is still a barbaric, "What?" Or maybe suggest an easier poem to start off with. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From jdavis Wed May 2 15:22:24 2001 From: jdavis (Jordan Davis) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 15:22:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] the 20th In-Reply-To: Message-ID: All respect to Russ MacKechnie's pointing to Stevens (if I had to sum up 20th century American poetry, Stevens's _Collected_ would be one of the books I'd have on any list longer than three). Jordan From anastasios Wed May 2 15:45:06 2001 From: anastasios (Anastasios Kozaitis) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 15:45:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] the 20th In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.0.20010502154414.00ac4480@mail.verizon.net> Meaning that Stevens' *Collected* is your 4th pick in the 1st round, Jordan? What would be your first 3 picks? At 03:22 PM 5/2/01, you wrote: >All respect to Russ MacKechnie's pointing to Stevens (if I had to sum up >20th century American poetry, Stevens's _Collected_ would be one of the >books I'd have on any list longer than three). Jordan > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From moira_russell Wed May 2 15:48:05 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 11:48:05 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] The State of Poetry Message-ID: This may be just another addition to Amber's "why-does-modern-poetry-suck" list of articles, but I found it interesting, particularly the suggestion "poets must stop writing poetry for a time. Poets with laureates, sinecures of creative writing, and other epaulets of official verse culture must resign their commissions, withholding their services until poetry matters," which matches up with the webdelsol demand that poets such as Mary Oliver Just Stop Writing. There seems to be a zero-sum mentality at work here: If Mary Oliver publishes, another (presumably more worthy) poet will not. http://www.citypaper.com/2001-04-11/books.html Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From cstroffo Wed May 2 15:24:20 2001 From: cstroffo (chris stroffolino) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 15:24:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon References: <200105021657.MAA13757@dept.english.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <3AF05EE2.D07B7BBE@earthlink.net> Michael--- Isn't this a little bit reductive? Yes, Freud is there...but not as much as some make of it...It's just one aspect, and often balanced by his interest in Nietzsche and Emerson... Chris Michael Magee wrote: > David, thanks very much for this. I've been, along the way, a very > serious reader of Bloom, particularly AGON, but I've read it all. Yes > he's erudite, abjectly so. And the idea of Bloom as agendaless is beyond > dumb. Anyone who knows AGON well, to say nothing of THE ANXIETY OF > INFLUENCE and A MAP OF MISREADING, knows that Freud looms behind all, > informs every aesthetic choice, every literary family tree drawn, every > description of tradition and the individual talent. For "influences" > there's the early Freud; for properly deconstructive, "radical" readings > of texts there's the Freud of BEYOND THE PLEASURE PRINCIPLE. It's all a > little bit interesting, tho more predictable the more you wade into it. > But ultimately it feels too much like a Victorian parlor game for me, or a > rather sophisticated game of Jeopardy, if you like. And as you say, the > number of great writers he can't read at all would fill a very large book. > > -m. > > According to David Graham: > > > For what it's worth, I was thinking specifically not of Bloom's *The > > Western Canon* but of his diatribe, "They have the numbers; we, the > > heights," which introduced his Best of the Best American antho. > > > > That essay is available online, along with a number of responses to it: > > > > http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR23.2/bloom.html > > > > I'm amazed by Bloom's erudition, too. And I've found him an invaluable > > critic of the Romantics. > > > > But from where I sit, his taste in contemporary poetry is uncomfortably > > narrow, since it excludes a great deal of poetry that I admire. I > > particularly like what David Mura said in response to Bloom's essay: > > > > http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR23.3/mura.html > > > > Here are the opening paragraph's of Mura's essay: > > > > _____________________ > > In the world according to Harold Bloom, there are those who occupy the > > heights of objective judgment and the barbarians below. Or, as Bloom would > > have it, what he reads with pleasure and profit must possess lasting > > aesthetic value. Those who do not see that value have been blinded to the > > true purpose of literature by a political or ideological agenda. In > > contrast, Bloom's judgment has nothing to do with his race, gender, sexual > > orientation, ethnic origin, or politics. He possesses no extra-literary > > agenda, no personal biases. If we point out that all the writers he holds > > up in admiration are white and most of them male, we are replacing > > objective literary criteria with sociology. > > > > I am not convinced that Bloom's sight is so unequivocally accurate and > > god-like. When he proclaims that his opponents are entirely preoccupied > > with the race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnic origin, and political > > purpose of the would-be poet, I see either a misunderstanding or a > > mischaracterization of their arguments. Characteristics such as race and > > gender surely suggest areas of study that might aid in understanding and > > evaluating a poet. Moreover, for certain poets, such study might be > > required to appreciate fully their aesthetic value. It does not follow that > > matters of technique or analyses of form should be dismissed or denied > > preeminent importance-though even here one might certainly find instances > > where the forms a poet employs derive from aspects in their background. > > > > At the same time, Bloom would probably maintain that the critic's own > > background or identity ought to be irrelevant. Or at least, that his must > > be. Perhaps Harold Bloom is special. But for myself and every other critic > > I've encountered, such factors are relevant. It's not a question of whether > > we carry prejudices and blinders within our psyches, but what kind. But I > > suppose that for Harold Bloom, I'm just one of those (critics and poets) > > who have politicized literature and broken from that Edenic paradise where > > literature possessed no political designs or effects and existed in a > > separate realm altogether. > > > > According to Bloom, remnants of that apolitical period existed before the > > onslaught of the sixties and the resulting deterioration of culture. Yet > > even in the late seventies, when I was a graduate student, the curriculum I > > studied would have probably met Harold Bloom's approval. Other than a > > handful of poems by Amiri Baraka, all the poets were white, and the > > overwhelming majority were white males. According to Bloom, then, I studied > > the apolitical canon. That's not how I remember it. Certain professors and > > critics such as James Dickey implied or explicitly stated that women were > > less capable than men of writing great literature (the logic here: if women > > were more capable, then of course we'd be studying them). Similarly, I was > > told outright and subtly that to identify myself as an Japanese American or > > Asian American writer or a writer of color was to relegate myself to a > > literary ghetto-- to enter literature through a back door affirmative > > action program. This only reinforced the cultural lessons I had learned > > growing up in an all white suburb, wanting to assimilate and erase my > > difference, wanting to disassociate myself from other Japanese-Americans or > > people of color. I told myself I wanted to be judged as an individual, for > > my own merits. What I knew subconsciously was that I really wanted to be > > white. And nothing in my literary training through grad school ever led me > > to question this desire or enabled me to formulate any other understanding > > of my identity. > > _______________________________ > > > > David Graham > > > > >It happens I'm reading Bloom's book right now, and I'm > > >totally engrossed at the enormous breadth of his reading, > > >understanding, and ability to make sweeping comparisons and > > >crossreferences, and to communicate his enthusiasms clearly > > >and gracefully. > > > > > >I'm just amazed that David Graham can use words like > > >"poverty of imagination" and "ludicrous" when speaking of > > >Harold Bloom. > > > > > > > > >David Graham wrote: > > >>>In this regard, the poverty of imagination in a critic like Harold Bloom is > > >>>really stunning, I think. He has no ears for so many different kinds of > > >>>contemporary poetry (especially those based in the oral tradition) that his > > >>>particular brand of elitism just seems ludicrous. > > >>> > > > > > >Richard > > > > > > __________________ > > David Graham > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > __________________ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd Wed May 2 17:08:32 2001 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 16:08:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: According to the most recent Gallup Poll, "A Rabbit as King of the Ghosts" is one of my top 3 Stevens poems, too. The others are "The Snow Man" and "Tea at the Palaz of Hoon." Under torture, I might name "The Snow Man" as my favorite lyric of all time. . . . I first encountered Stevens one summer during college, when I was blessed with a perfect job: tour guide at a historic site that was not very popular. So I had a lot of time between tours to read *The Palm at the End of the Mind*. The first month I just savored Stevens's titles. The second month I read *Harmonium*. The third month I was in despair, and decided never to read poetry again. Poetry can be dangerous. As for cronyism: like Janet Holmes, I have been a slush pile success in terms of getting myself into print without benefit of great contacts. Not that I would have turned such a thing down--it's just that none of my former teachers ever asked! David Graham _________________ THE SNOW MAN One must have a mind of winter To regard the frost and the boughs Of the pine-trees crusted with snow; And have been cold a long time To behold the junipers shagged with ice, The spruces rough in the distant glitter Of the January sun; and not to think Of any misery in the sound of the wind, In the sound of a few leaves, Which is the sound of the land Full of the same wind That is blowing in the same bare place For the listener, who listens in the snow, And, nothing himself, beholds Nothing that is not there and the nothing that is. __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From mmagee Wed May 2 17:22:11 2001 From: mmagee (Michael Magee) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 17:22:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon In-Reply-To: <3AF05EE2.D07B7BBE@earthlink.net> from "chris stroffolino" at May 2, 2001 03:24:20 pm Message-ID: <200105022122.RAA05779@dept.english.upenn.edu> According to chris stroffolino: > > Michael--- > > Isn't this a little bit reductive? Yes, Freud is there...but not as much as some > make of it...It's just one aspect, and often balanced by his interest in Nietzsche > and Emerson... Chris, sure it's a bit reductive, how could it not be? But the spirit of it's right I think. If we say, for the sake of argument, that Freud plus Emerson plus Nietszche equals Bloom (saving for another time Emerson's deep influence on Nietzsche and Nietzsche's on Freud which only complicates matters) then Bloom's renderings of Emerson become an interesting case in point. Bloom inaugurates (along w/ Cavell) the connection between Emerson and post-structuralism in the critical discourse, calling the tactic by which Emerson links the contingency of his selfhood to the contingency of his prose, "evasion." Bloom says, counter-intuitively, that evasion is "the center" of Emerson?s philosophy, and that this evasion accounts for the fact that "no two disciples can agree upon Emerson's doctrine." For Bloom, Emerson's motive for such evasion is a will to agonistic misreading so deeply felt that it extends to what he believes to be his prior selves. Again, Bloom makes it pretty clear that he's borrowed this notion from BEYOND THE PLEASURE PRINCIPLE, "the Freud who establishes the priority of anxiety over its stimuli," as Bloom puts it. That is a really limited/limiting (if also sometimes interesting) reading of Emerson which, among other things, de-politicizes his work (surprise, surprise). For instance, I would argue (and incidentally, do argue in the latest issue of _Raritan_ if any of this sounds interesting) that Emerson's evasion is a will to collaboration based on the democratic structure of language, a will to foster proactively creative reading where any resolution of meaning is based on contextualized "respect to the present hour." I draw this distinction regarding Emerson's motive because it is directly related to his social activism in a way which challenges almost all of our received ideas about Emerson as canonical literary figure. I can only imagine that Bloom, since he already has his narrative in hand, wouldn't have any time for a view of Emerson which foregrounded his abolitionism as central to his aesthetic. I mean, hell, we might find out that his chief influence was not Goethe but Margaret Fuller and Frederick Douglass! Of course its not the fact that Bloom's views are wrong that's the problem. All of our views, after all, are wrong. It's that Bloom claims in a variety of subtle and not-so-subtle ways that his views are right, central and everlasting. Strange thing, that. -m. From BobGrumman Wed May 2 17:22:51 2001 From: BobGrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 17:22:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon References: <200105021657.MAA13757@dept.english.upenn.edu> <3AF05EE2.D07B7BBE@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3AF07AAB.603@nut-n-but.net> Chris, To be really reductive about Bloom (note to Marcus: just for fun), I'd say that in his theology of poetry, Emerson may be Bloom's father, but Freud is God--and Shakespeare is his only begotten Son. --Bob G. chris stroffolino wrote: > > Michael--- > > Isn't this a little bit reductive? Yes, Freud is there...but not as much as some > make of it...It's just one aspect, and often balanced by his interest in Nietzsche > and Emerson... > > Chris From BobGrumman Wed May 2 17:29:18 2001 From: BobGrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 17:29:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The State of Poetry References: Message-ID: <3AF07C2E.4BBF@nut-n-but.net> Moira Russell wrote: > > This may be just another addition to Amber's "why-does-modern-poetry-suck" > list of articles, but I found it interesting, particularly the suggestion > "poets must stop writing poetry for a time. Poets with laureates, sinecures > of creative writing, and other epaulets of official verse culture must > resign their commissions, withholding their services until poetry matters," I like this concept. To me, the idea behind it is that if certified poets stop writing, then (horrors) academic and commercial publishers of poetry will suddenly have to start reading poetry and choosing whom to publish rather than just gong by reputation. Might do them good. I suspect, though, that we'd just get imitations of certified poets, which would be a step down. (Again, for those quick to misread me, I'm not against certified poets, some of whom I consider very good; I'm just against their being nearly the only poets being given prizes, publication, recognition, etc.) --Bob G. From paul.lake Wed May 2 06:25:05 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 05:25:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Western Canon Message-ID: >Of course its not the fact that Bloom's views are wrong that's the >problem. All of our views, after all, are wrong. It's that Bloom claims >in a variety of subtle and not-so-subtle ways that his views are right, >central and everlasting. "All of our views, after all, are wrong." Including this one? Paul Lake From mmagee Wed May 2 17:37:45 2001 From: mmagee (Michael Magee) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 17:37:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Western Canon In-Reply-To: from "Paul Lake" at May 2, 2001 05:25:05 am Message-ID: <200105022137.RAA09546@dept.english.upenn.edu> According to Paul Lake: > > "All of our views, after all, are wrong." > > Including this one? > > > Paul Lake > Paul, yes, in- cluding this one -m. From paul.lake Wed May 2 06:33:53 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 05:33:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Western Canon In-Reply-To: <200105022137.RAA09546@dept.english.upenn.edu> Message-ID: on 5/2/01 4:37 PM, Michael Magee at mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu wrote: > > According to Paul Lake: >> >> "All of our views, after all, are wrong." >> >> Including this one? >> >> >> Paul Lake >> > > Paul, yes, in- > cluding this > one > > -m. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > You don't see a paradox (the Cretan liar paradox, specifically) in statements like the following? "All statements, including this one, are wrong." Paul Lake From moira_russell Wed May 2 17:42:37 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 13:42:37 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] The State of Poetry Message-ID: Bob wrote: >"poets must stop writing poetry for a time. > >I like this concept. I admit it unnerves me. I don't particularly like....let's see....John Updike, but would I want to zap him and thunder "NO MORE BOOKS EVER"? It seems sort of churlish. Is the American poetry scene really so limited that if Mary Oliver wins a prize, there will be no room for someone else? -- Could be, given I know next to nothing about it. But I'm just seeing this suggestion pop up more and more and it seems odd. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From BobGrumman Wed May 2 17:58:00 2001 From: BobGrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 17:58:00 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The State of Poetry References: Message-ID: <3AF082E8.30F7@nut-n-but.net> > >"poets must stop writing poetry for a time. > > >I like this concept. > > I admit it unnerves me. I don't particularly like....let's > see....John Updike, but would I want to zap him and > thunder "NO MORE BOOKS EVER"? It seems sort of churlish. > Is the American poetry scene really so limited that > if Mary Oliver wins a prize, there will be no room > for someone else? -- Well, I said "for a time," not "forever," which would be just a little unfair. And, of course, it's not just Mary Oliver's winning a prize, but--basically--no one but certified poets like Mary Oliver's winning all the (visible) prizes (almost). Moreover, this is clearly not a serious proposal since no one would really want to put it into effect, or be able to. --Bob G. > Could be, given I know next to nothing about it. But I'm just seeing this > suggestion pop up more and more and it seems odd. From halvard Wed May 2 18:40:08 2001 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 18:40:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The State of Poetry In-Reply-To: <3AF082E8.30F7@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Some already do. John Ashbery, for example. Seems to me he said somewhere some years ago that he writes only on Fridays so as not to flood the market. (Or was it that he *doesn't* write on Fridays?) Hal "The time for standing to one side is near now, very near." --John Ashbery Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson > > >"poets must stop writing poetry for a time. > > > >I like this concept. > > > > I admit it unnerves me. I don't particularly like....let's > > see....John Updike, but would I want to zap him and > > thunder "NO MORE BOOKS EVER"? It seems sort of churlish. > > Is the American poetry scene really so limited that > > if Mary Oliver wins a prize, there will be no room > > for someone else? -- > > Well, I said "for a time," not "forever," which would > be just a little unfair. And, of course, it's not just > Mary Oliver's winning a prize, but--basically--no one but > certified poets like Mary Oliver's winning all the (visible) > prizes (almost). Moreover, this is clearly not a serious > proposal since no one would really want to put it into > effect, or be able to. > > --Bob G. > > > > Could be, given I know next to nothing about it. But I'm just seeing this > > suggestion pop up more and more and it seems odd. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From mbales Wed May 2 18:54:12 2001 From: mbales (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 18:54:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon In-Reply-To: <200105022122.RAA05779@dept.english.upenn.edu> References: <3AF05EE2.D07B7BBE@earthlink.net> from "chris stroffolino" at May 2, 2001 03:24:20 pm Message-ID: Michael Magee: > Of course its not the fact that Bloom's views are wrong that's the > problem. All of our views, after all, are wrong. It's that Bloom > claims in a variety of subtle and not-so-subtle ways that his views > are right, central and everlasting. Strange thing, that.<< What's so strange about claiming one's views are right? Do you seek out wrong views to hold and disseminate? If you believe your views to be wrong, do you fall silent in all instances, then, for fear that you might promulgate wrong views to others? And if you believe your views are wrong, on what possible grounds, other than a seeking-out of contrary right views (e.g., if you don't know how to say a word, say it loud, and someone who knows will correct you) do you utter your wrong views? And, if you utter your wrong views hoping someone with right views will correct you, on what grounds do you object, if you object, to others' views? In short, what are the standards of right views and wrong views to which you'd subscribe? Marcus mbales at cybergate.net From wasanthony Wed May 2 18:53:45 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 15:53:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] The State of Poetry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010502225345.99425.qmail@web12102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Moira Russell wrote: > Bob wrote: > > >"poets must stop writing poetry for a time. > > >I like this concept. > > I admit it unnerves me. I don't particularly like....let's > see....John > Updike, but would I want to zap him and thunder "NO MORE BOOKS EVER"? > It > seems sort of churlish. Is the American poetry scene really so > limited that > if Mary Oliver wins a prize, there will be no room for someone else? > -- > Could be, given I know next to nothing about it. But I'm just seeing > this > suggestion pop up more and more and it seems odd. > I wonder if it originated with a poet or a critic, or a poet who hasn't been able to write? It certainly wasn't Lyn Lifshin. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From mmagee Wed May 2 18:55:33 2001 From: mmagee (Michael Magee) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 18:55:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon In-Reply-To: from "Marcus Bales" at May 2, 2001 06:54:12 pm Message-ID: <200105022255.SAA23846@dept.english.upenn.edu> Marcus, and this would respond I think to Paul as well, my phrase was not simply "right" but "right, central and everlasting." Big difference, it seems to me. Bloom wants the universal - he might dodge the issue but it remains, for me at least, as a reader of his work (this, I think is the source of Bob's joke about Freud being God.) As for Paul's question about the paradoxical nature of a stament like "All statements are wrong, including this one" - a Platonist might concern himself with ironing out paradoxes and contradictions, not me. To say that every stament is wrong is simply to say that every "right" statement becomes wrong in the course of time or through a shift in space (context). In the immortal words of the theme song from Different Strokes (slightly altered), "What might be right for Bloom / may not be right for some..." -m. According to Marcus Bales: > > Michael Magee: > > Of course its not the fact that Bloom's views are wrong that's the > > problem. All of our views, after all, are wrong. It's that Bloom > > claims in a variety of subtle and not-so-subtle ways that his views > > are right, central and everlasting. Strange thing, that.<< > > What's so strange about claiming one's views are right? Do you > seek out wrong views to hold and disseminate? If you believe your > views to be wrong, do you fall silent in all instances, then, for fear > that you might promulgate wrong views to others? > > And if you believe your views are wrong, on what possible grounds, > other than a seeking-out of contrary right views (e.g., if you don't > know how to say a word, say it loud, and someone who knows will > correct you) do you utter your wrong views? > > And, if you utter your wrong views hoping someone with right views > will correct you, on what grounds do you object, if you object, to > others' views? > > In short, what are the standards of right views and wrong views to > which you'd subscribe? > > Marcus > > > > > > > mbales at cybergate.net > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From wasanthony Wed May 2 18:56:41 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 15:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010502225641.87616.qmail@web12107.mail.yahoo.com> --- Marcus Bales wrote: > Michael Magee: > > Of course its not the fact that Bloom's views are wrong that's the > > problem. All of our views, after all, are wrong. It's that Bloom > > claims in a variety of subtle and not-so-subtle ways that his views > > are right, central and everlasting. Strange thing, that.<< > > What's so strange about claiming one's views are right? Do you > seek out wrong views to hold and disseminate? If you believe your > views to be wrong, do you fall silent in all instances, then, for > fear > that you might promulgate wrong views to others? > > And if you believe your views are wrong, on what possible grounds, > other than a seeking-out of contrary right views (e.g., if you don't > know how to say a word, say it loud, and someone who knows will > correct you) do you utter your wrong views? > > And, if you utter your wrong views hoping someone with right views > will correct you, on what grounds do you object, if you object, to > others' views? > > In short, what are the standards of right views and wrong views to > which you'd subscribe? > Marcus: There are right views, left views, forward views, and then the one in the rear-view mirror. Best to check them all before you proceed. - Jim, safe driver ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From mbales Wed May 2 20:20:06 2001 From: mbales (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 20:20:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon In-Reply-To: <200105022255.SAA23846@dept.english.upenn.edu> References: from "Marcus Bales" at May 2, 2001 06:54:12 pm Message-ID: Mike Magee: > ... my phrase was > not simply "right" but "right, central and everlasting." Big > difference, it seems to me. Bloom wants the universal...<< I'll grant a small difference, but not a big one, on the grounds that "...and everlasting" is clearly hyperbole on your part. I grant that Bloom thinks he's right and that his right opinions are "central" -- but only for his contemporary audience. I think he's smart enough both to know his opinions are not "everlasting" and not to claim it, either. That he "wants the universal" I'll agree to -- if you'll allow Bloom (and me) the context of "the contemporary universal". I think Bloom, for all that he's accused of, is wrongly accused when he is accused of wanting to replace all opinion, past present and future, with his own. I'll grant that he uses strong language to express strong opinions, but not that he thereby insists that his opinions are right now then and always. So, it seems to me, we're back to the question: do you hold, or advocate that others hold, or ought to hold, wrong tangential opinions on purpose to make sure that you're never accused of trying to hold "right, central" ones? Or do you go so far as to hold, or advocate that others hold, or ought to hold, wrong, tangential and ephemeral opinions just to avoid being accused of trying to hold "right, central, everlasting" ones? Mike Magee: > ... To say that every stament is wrong is simply > to say that every "right" statement becomes wrong in the course of > time or through a shift in space (context).<< I disagree: to say "Every statement is wrong" is a different thing from saying "Every right statement becomes wrong through shifts in time or context". The former abandons pretty explicitly not only right statement but even the hope of right statements, while the latter allows for contingent rightness in context. Marcus mbales at cybergate.net From mackechnie Wed May 2 20:17:49 2001 From: mackechnie (Russ MacKechnie) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 20:17:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens, Gwynn, Anastasios, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >Russ, all wonderful Stevens poems, but for my money "Two Figures >in Dense Violet Night" and "Long and Sluggish Lines" need to be on >the list too, as well as his wonderful titles ("Tea at the Palaz of Hoon," >"The Curtains in the House of the Metaphysician," "The Revolutionists >Stop for Orangeade," etc.). Gee, Janet, why stop there then? There are other *musts*: "Of Mere Being"; "The Man on the Dump"; "Peter Quince at the Clavier"; "The Poems of Our Climate"; "The Idea of Order at Key West"; "Floral Decorations for Bananas" (who said Stevens couldn't be exquisitely erotic?); and the poem that boasts one of the most exotic of all poem titles---no one holds a candle [even a Valley Candle] to Stevens's when it comes to title-making---and two of the finest lines in all of poetry ("Snow sparkles like eyesight falling to earth,/ Like seeing fallen brightly away."): "No Possum, No Sop, No Taters." But wait a minute. Maybe it's *three* of the finest lines in all of poetry ("A pool shines,/ Like a bracelet/ Shaken in a dance.): "Six Significant Landscapes." Hold on, though, maybe it's *four*. . . . Anyway, the man who wrote that "Poetry is a form of redemption" goes about as far as any poet can go in redeeming whoever reads him attentively. "You know then it is not the reason/ That makes us happy or unhappy./ The bird sings. Its feathers shine." Stevens's singing, more than that of any other poet, has made this reader happier than reason ever could, on its most rationale day, in its most reasonable raiment. Those fire-fangled feathers dangling down, those ambiguous undulations, that breath-taking plunge into darkness on extended wings. . . . Russ From wasanthony Wed May 2 20:24:10 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 17:24:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010503002410.93108.qmail@web12107.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Graham wrote: > Under torture, I might name "The Snow > Man" as > my favorite lyric of all time. . . . > > snip > snip > For the listener, who listens in the snow, > And, nothing himself, beholds > Nothing that is not there and the nothing that is. > Well, I can't decide if that would be my choice for "favorite lyric of all time," but that final stanza kept setting off echoes in my mind and I realized that it was because I'd heard/read that move many times. I didn't respond immediately because I couldn't recall examples instantly and didn't have the time to LOOK-THINGS-UP, and I still don't. But, I think we've all seen that move many times. But, my taxed RAM did pull this out of an overloaded MEMORY from Mark Strand's "Keeping Things Whole": In a field I am the absence of field And, once I did that, Strand's lines called up a resonance from W.S. Merwin, but I haven't looked up an example. Perhaps those of you who have the talent to recall these things instantly can recall echoes of Stevens' move in that stanza. Anyway, I think Stevens' stanza gave birth to a modern and post-modern conceit. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From eselinge Wed May 2 21:29:57 2001 From: eselinge (Eric Selinger) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 20:29:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens and Emotion Message-ID: Like Moira, I had trouble connecting with Stevens' work on any emotional level, heart or gut or giggle, until I read (speaking of the Value of Criticism), Helen Vendler's little collection of essays on WS, "Words Chosen Out of Desire," especially the essay "Stevens' Secrecies." After that, I found he often packed an extraordinary wallop, & tried to write about what exactly that wallop consists of--where it comes from, how it works--in my book on love in American poetry. A good case of a good critic (and I do think HV is often very good & useful, at least in her shorter essays and lectures) bringing work to life for a reader, which is one of the job's greener and more pleasant tasks. EMS From mackechnie Wed May 2 22:10:36 2001 From: mackechnie (Russ MacKechnie) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 22:10:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens and Emotion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Eric Selinger writes: > Like Moira, I had trouble connecting with Stevens' work on > any emotional level, heart or gut or giggle, until I read > (speaking of the Value of Criticism), Helen Vendler's little > collection of essays on WS, "Words Chosen Out of Desire," > especially the essay "Stevens' Secrecies." After that, I > found he often packed an extraordinary wallop, & tried to > write about what exactly that wallop consists of--where it > comes from, how it works--in my book on love in American > poetry. I, too, think Vendler did every Stevens reader a real service in _Words Chosen Out of Desire_ , a very slim but rewarding volume. I recommend it without reservation to Moira and anyone else interested in getting a preliminary emotional "grip" on the lawyer-poet. David La Guardia's _Advance on Chaos: The Sanctifying Imagination of Wallace Stevens_ is also a superb all-around introduction to the poet (in the not unusual context, for WS, of Emerson and William James). Might I ask, Eric, the title (and publisher) of your book on love in American poetry? I would very much like to read it---and your take on that "extraordinary wallop" that has, it seems, affected us both. Russ From Cadaly Wed May 2 22:11:02 2001 From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 22:11:02 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] 1926 & 1927 Message-ID: I dunno. Cursory search of Granger's: Ingeborg Bachmann Rgds, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin Wed May 2 22:38:06 2001 From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 19:38:06 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon References: Message-ID: <05a801c0d37a$181b7f60$19acefd8@0021936706> I've probably been brainwashed by the establishment and my white professors, but while I find neither Bloom's or Mura's essays satisfactory in that neither attempts to carve out a middle ground, I'm more comfortable with Bloom's pronouncements. As an "ethnic" writer who chooses to eschew the labels that "society" would place upon me, I'm very uncomfortable when someone like David Mura asserts (as he does in another essay) that I am harboring racial self-hatred simply because I don't write poems about my "ethnic experiences," as if they are fundamentally different from the experiences of human beings everywehre. Nothing could be further from the truth. What I resent is the commodification of ethnicity that I see happening around me. Like it or not, a poet who chooses to ground his poetry in identity politics often has a leg up on his white peers, or his fellow ethnics who choose not to focus on identity in their poetry. I've seen this happen, in MFA programs, and within University faculties. And not to belabor a point I've made before, I was told by a "famous poet" that if I didn't shape up and start writing "chicano poems" my funding would be pulled. I didn't, and it was. I wonder how common this experience is. Tony > But from where I sit, his taste in contemporary poetry is uncomfortably > narrow, since it excludes a great deal of poetry that I admire. I > particularly like what David Mura said in response to Bloom's essay: > > http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR23.3/mura.html > > Here are the opening paragraph's of Mura's essay: > > _____________________ > In the world according to Harold Bloom, there are those who occupy the > heights of objective judgment and the barbarians below. Or, as Bloom would > have it, what he reads with pleasure and profit must possess lasting > aesthetic value. Those who do not see that value have been blinded to the > true purpose of literature by a political or ideological agenda. In > contrast, Bloom's judgment has nothing to do with his race, gender, sexual > orientation, ethnic origin, or politics. He possesses no extra-literary > agenda, no personal biases. If we point out that all the writers he holds > up in admiration are white and most of them male, we are replacing > objective literary criteria with sociology. > > I am not convinced that Bloom's sight is so unequivocally accurate and > god-like. When he proclaims that his opponents are entirely preoccupied > with the race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnic origin, and political > purpose of the would-be poet, I see either a misunderstanding or a > mischaracterization of their arguments. Characteristics such as race and > gender surely suggest areas of study that might aid in understanding and > evaluating a poet. Moreover, for certain poets, such study might be > required to appreciate fully their aesthetic value. It does not follow that > matters of technique or analyses of form should be dismissed or denied > preeminent importance-though even here one might certainly find instances > where the forms a poet employs derive from aspects in their background. > > At the same time, Bloom would probably maintain that the critic's own > background or identity ought to be irrelevant. Or at least, that his must > be. Perhaps Harold Bloom is special. But for myself and every other critic > I've encountered, such factors are relevant. It's not a question of whether > we carry prejudices and blinders within our psyches, but what kind. But I > suppose that for Harold Bloom, I'm just one of those (critics and poets) > who have politicized literature and broken from that Edenic paradise where > literature possessed no political designs or effects and existed in a > separate realm altogether. > > According to Bloom, remnants of that apolitical period existed before the > onslaught of the sixties and the resulting deterioration of culture. Yet > even in the late seventies, when I was a graduate student, the curriculum I > studied would have probably met Harold Bloom's approval. Other than a > handful of poems by Amiri Baraka, all the poets were white, and the > overwhelming majority were white males. According to Bloom, then, I studied > the apolitical canon. That's not how I remember it. Certain professors and > critics such as James Dickey implied or explicitly stated that women were > less capable than men of writing great literature (the logic here: if women > were more capable, then of course we'd be studying them). Similarly, I was > told outright and subtly that to identify myself as an Japanese American or > Asian American writer or a writer of color was to relegate myself to a > literary ghetto-- to enter literature through a back door affirmative > action program. This only reinforced the cultural lessons I had learned > growing up in an all white suburb, wanting to assimilate and erase my > difference, wanting to disassociate myself from other Japanese-Americans or > people of color. I told myself I wanted to be judged as an individual, for > my own merits. What I knew subconsciously was that I really wanted to be > white. And nothing in my literary training through grad school ever led me > to question this desire or enabled me to formulate any other understanding > of my identity. > _______________________________ > > David Graham > > >It happens I'm reading Bloom's book right now, and I'm > >totally engrossed at the enormous breadth of his reading, > >understanding, and ability to make sweeping comparisons and > >crossreferences, and to communicate his enthusiasms clearly > >and gracefully. > > > >I'm just amazed that David Graham can use words like > >"poverty of imagination" and "ludicrous" when speaking of > >Harold Bloom. > > > > > >David Graham wrote: > >>>In this regard, the poverty of imagination in a critic like Harold Bloom is > >>>really stunning, I think. He has no ears for so many different kinds of > >>>contemporary poetry (especially those based in the oral tradition) that his > >>>particular brand of elitism just seems ludicrous. > >>> > > > >Richard > > > __________________ > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > __________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From cstroffo Thu May 3 01:48:14 2001 From: cstroffo (chris stroffolino) Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 01:48:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon References: <200105022122.RAA05779@dept.english.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <3AF0F11D.2A8E1C1B@earthlink.net> Yes, Bloom does depoliticize Emerson, as well as Shelley... and even depoliticizes Freud... but there is still a dialectic going on between Emerson's transcendental strain (even if it's reduced and figured as lingustic play and/or troping) and Freud's family drama...I still don't think his interest in the former, and in visionary poetry, is always subordinated to his Freudian elements... Also, as for Bob's comments on Shakespeare and Freud, I like Bloom's quote that "a Freudian reading of Shakespeare" should be eschewed in favor of "a Shakespearean reading of Freud." I don't think Bloom himself achieves that--- but the suggestion can be quite liberating.... also, doesn't there seem to be a contradiction in recent Bloom's championing (and identification with) Falstaff and his taste in much contemporary poetry (in which Bloom seems to act more like Hal/Henry V after he's rejected Falstaff)? chris Michael Magee wrote: > According to chris stroffolino: > > > > Michael--- > > > > Isn't this a little bit reductive? Yes, Freud is there...but not as much as some > > make of it...It's just one aspect, and often balanced by his interest in Nietzsche > > and Emerson... > > Chris, sure it's a bit reductive, how could it not be? But the spirit of > it's right I think. If we say, for the sake of argument, that Freud plus > Emerson plus Nietszche equals Bloom (saving for another time Emerson's > deep influence on Nietzsche and Nietzsche's on Freud which only > complicates matters) then Bloom's renderings of Emerson become an > interesting case in point. Bloom inaugurates (along w/ Cavell) the > connection between Emerson and post-structuralism in the critical > discourse, calling the tactic by which Emerson links the contingency of > his selfhood to the contingency of his prose, "evasion." Bloom says, > counter-intuitively, that evasion is "the center" of Emerson?s philosophy, > and that this evasion accounts for the fact that "no two disciples can > agree upon Emerson's doctrine." For Bloom, Emerson's motive for such > evasion is a will to agonistic misreading so deeply felt that it extends > to what he believes to be his prior selves. Again, Bloom makes it pretty > clear that he's borrowed this notion from BEYOND THE PLEASURE PRINCIPLE, > "the Freud who establishes the priority of anxiety over its stimuli," as > Bloom puts it. That is a really limited/limiting (if also sometimes > interesting) reading of Emerson which, among other things, de-politicizes > his work (surprise, surprise). For instance, I would argue (and > incidentally, do argue in the latest issue of _Raritan_ if any of this > sounds interesting) that Emerson's evasion is a will to collaboration > based on the democratic structure of language, a will to foster > proactively creative reading where any resolution of meaning is based on > contextualized "respect to the present hour." I draw this distinction > regarding Emerson's motive because it is directly related to his social > activism in a way which challenges almost all of our received ideas about > Emerson as canonical literary figure. I can only imagine that Bloom, > since he already has his narrative in hand, wouldn't have any time for a > view of Emerson which foregrounded his abolitionism as central to his > aesthetic. I mean, hell, we might find out that his chief influence was > not Goethe but Margaret Fuller and Frederick Douglass! > > Of course its not the fact that Bloom's views are wrong that's the > problem. All of our views, after all, are wrong. It's that Bloom claims > in a variety of subtle and not-so-subtle ways that his views are right, > central and everlasting. Strange thing, that. > > -m. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From aprentiss Thu May 3 07:31:08 2001 From: aprentiss (Amber Prentiss) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 07:31:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon Message-ID: I'm not necessarily a believer in fundamental human experience (life in Japan ain't life in India ain't life in the UK ain't life in the South ain't life in Alaska), but that's not my point. When was your funding cut off? But that, too, is not my point. This is my point: There's a market. People want to know how the other side lives while the other side wants to see itself represented. It's been my impression that one of the factors driving the Harlem Renaissance was the patronage of wealthy whites who wanted to know what black life was like. Simple curiosity. There's writing about the human experience and the white experience already in English - tons of it, especially if you start literary history in English with Beowulf or earlier, and there's nothing wrong with that. Still, there's not nearly as much about being (or from people who are) black, Chinese, Native American, or gay if you've got the whole of English and American literary history to contend with. In an increasingly closed-off suburban America, literature can be used to connect with cultures you don't know well or at all. I don't think it's so much a value judgement as base curiosity - hey, what's new? What's it like to be [fill-in]? But I don't think that someone ought to be forced to write in a certain mode, especially after the granters ought to have become aware of what the granted likes to do. -Amber -----Original Message----- From: Anthony Robinson To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 5/2/2001 10:38 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon I've probably been brainwashed by the establishment and my white professors, but while I find neither Bloom's or Mura's essays satisfactory in that neither attempts to carve out a middle ground, I'm more comfortable with Bloom's pronouncements. As an "ethnic" writer who chooses to eschew the labels that "society" would place upon me, I'm very uncomfortable when someone like David Mura asserts (as he does in another essay) that I am harboring racial self-hatred simply because I don't write poems about my "ethnic experiences," as if they are fundamentally different from the experiences of human beings everywehre. Nothing could be further from the truth. What I resent is the commodification of ethnicity that I see happening around me. Like it or not, a poet who chooses to ground his poetry in identity politics often has a leg up on his white peers, or his fellow ethnics who choose not to focus on identity in their poetry. I've seen this happen, in MFA programs, and within University faculties. And not to belabor a point I've made before, I was told by a "famous poet" that if I didn't shape up and start writing "chicano poems" my funding would be pulled. I didn't, and it was. I wonder how common this experience is. Tony > But from where I sit, his taste in contemporary poetry is uncomfortably > narrow, since it excludes a great deal of poetry that I admire. I > particularly like what David Mura said in response to Bloom's essay: > > http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR23.3/mura.html > > Here are the opening paragraph's of Mura's essay: > > _____________________ > In the world according to Harold Bloom, there are those who occupy the > heights of objective judgment and the barbarians below. Or, as Bloom would > have it, what he reads with pleasure and profit must possess lasting > aesthetic value. Those who do not see that value have been blinded to the > true purpose of literature by a political or ideological agenda. In > contrast, Bloom's judgment has nothing to do with his race, gender, sexual > orientation, ethnic origin, or politics. He possesses no extra-literary > agenda, no personal biases. If we point out that all the writers he holds > up in admiration are white and most of them male, we are replacing > objective literary criteria with sociology. > > I am not convinced that Bloom's sight is so unequivocally accurate and > god-like. When he proclaims that his opponents are entirely preoccupied > with the race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnic origin, and political > purpose of the would-be poet, I see either a misunderstanding or a > mischaracterization of their arguments. Characteristics such as race and > gender surely suggest areas of study that might aid in understanding and > evaluating a poet. Moreover, for certain poets, such study might be > required to appreciate fully their aesthetic value. It does not follow that > matters of technique or analyses of form should be dismissed or denied > preeminent importance-though even here one might certainly find instances > where the forms a poet employs derive from aspects in their background. > > At the same time, Bloom would probably maintain that the critic's own > background or identity ought to be irrelevant. Or at least, that his must > be. Perhaps Harold Bloom is special. But for myself and every other critic > I've encountered, such factors are relevant. It's not a question of whether > we carry prejudices and blinders within our psyches, but what kind. But I > suppose that for Harold Bloom, I'm just one of those (critics and poets) > who have politicized literature and broken from that Edenic paradise where > literature possessed no political designs or effects and existed in a > separate realm altogether. > > According to Bloom, remnants of that apolitical period existed before the > onslaught of the sixties and the resulting deterioration of culture. Yet > even in the late seventies, when I was a graduate student, the curriculum I > studied would have probably met Harold Bloom's approval. Other than a > handful of poems by Amiri Baraka, all the poets were white, and the > overwhelming majority were white males. According to Bloom, then, I studied > the apolitical canon. That's not how I remember it. Certain professors and > critics such as James Dickey implied or explicitly stated that women were > less capable than men of writing great literature (the logic here: if women > were more capable, then of course we'd be studying them). Similarly, I was > told outright and subtly that to identify myself as an Japanese American or > Asian American writer or a writer of color was to relegate myself to a > literary ghetto-- to enter literature through a back door affirmative > action program. This only reinforced the cultural lessons I had learned > growing up in an all white suburb, wanting to assimilate and erase my > difference, wanting to disassociate myself from other Japanese-Americans or > people of color. I told myself I wanted to be judged as an individual, for > my own merits. What I knew subconsciously was that I really wanted to be > white. And nothing in my literary training through grad school ever led me > to question this desire or enabled me to formulate any other understanding > of my identity. > _______________________________ > > David Graham > > >It happens I'm reading Bloom's book right now, and I'm > >totally engrossed at the enormous breadth of his reading, > >understanding, and ability to make sweeping comparisons and > >crossreferences, and to communicate his enthusiasms clearly > >and gracefully. > > > >I'm just amazed that David Graham can use words like > >"poverty of imagination" and "ludicrous" when speaking of > >Harold Bloom. > > > > > >David Graham wrote: > >>>In this regard, the poverty of imagination in a critic like Harold Bloom is > >>>really stunning, I think. He has no ears for so many different kinds of > >>>contemporary poetry (especially those based in the oral tradition) that his > >>>particular brand of elitism just seems ludicrous. > >>> > > > >Richard > > > __________________ > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > __________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From DICK Thu May 3 09:00:30 2001 From: DICK (DICK at watson.ibm.com) Date: Thu, 3 May 01 09:00:30 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] "ethnic" writing Message-ID: <200105031302.JAA27492@sp1n189at0.watson.ibm.com> Amber says most literature has told what it was like to live as white in the white world, and it's time to learn more about other categories. Tony says he doesn't want to write Chicano poems, he wants to write what he wants to write (for this I applaud him.) I think the best writing doesn't attempt to describe categories, but individuals. Hemingway - particularly in his short stories - educates us on what it was like to be Hemingway (Ref. Phillip Young, Hemingway, a Reconsideration.) Richard Rodriguez, in his autobiography, tells us an awful lot about himself, who found himself in America, a child without the language, and what it was like to grow from that. Edward Jones' collection of stories, "Lost in the City," tells very much about life in and around Washington DC as experienced by urban blacks, but his characters are very human (and black), rather than "black" characters. I think this distiction is crucial. Richard From aprentiss Thu May 3 09:23:26 2001 From: aprentiss (Amber Prentiss) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 09:23:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "ethnic" writing Message-ID: To clarify myself, I say a piece of work is 'about' something as one of many things that a piece of work could be about. There's plenty of work written by some dearly and not-so-dearly departed white males, and I can learn or infer what it was like to have been a particular sort of European when they wrote it. But now, there are other perspectives people want to know about, too. I think the real problem is distinguishing between what is written about a category and what isn't. How can you tell when a writer's characters are human (and some category) or "category" characters? In this context, what the writer thinks she's doing isn't so important as what others think the writer is trying to do. -Amber -----Original Message----- From: DICK at watson.ibm.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 5/3/2001 9:00 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] "ethnic" writing Amber says most literature has told what it was like to live as white in the white world, and it's time to learn more about other categories. Tony says he doesn't want to write Chicano poems, he wants to write what he wants to write (for this I applaud him.) I think the best writing doesn't attempt to describe categories, but individuals. Hemingway - particularly in his short stories - educates us on what it was like to be Hemingway (Ref. Phillip Young, Hemingway, a Reconsideration.) Richard Rodriguez, in his autobiography, tells us an awful lot about himself, who found himself in America, a child without the language, and what it was like to grow from that. Edward Jones' collection of stories, "Lost in the City," tells very much about life in and around Washington DC as experienced by urban blacks, but his characters are very human (and black), rather than "black" characters. I think this distiction is crucial. Richard _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From CobbCoStudioArts Thu May 3 10:24:34 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 07:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet of the Month Message-ID: <20010503142434.3123336F9@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From Rsgwynn1 Thu May 3 10:36:54 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 10:36:54 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet of the Month Message-ID: <36.155d80ee.2822c706@cs.com> In a message dated 5/3/2001 9:25:15 AM Central Daylight Time, CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com writes: > Sam, > Congratulations on your 30 days sentence! You certainly deserve a lot more! > > Bob Cobb > > Thanks, Bob. I've never had one of these before and it's really nice. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmagee Thu May 3 10:44:59 2001 From: mmagee (Michael Magee) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 10:44:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon In-Reply-To: from "Marcus Bales" at May 2, 2001 08:20:06 pm Message-ID: <200105031444.KAA09934@dept.english.upenn.edu> According to Marcus Bales: > > I disagree: to say "Every statement is wrong" is a different thing > from saying "Every right statement becomes wrong through shifts > in time or context". The former abandons pretty explicitly not only > right statement but even the hope of right statements, while the > latter allows for contingent rightness in context. > Marcus, it depends on how quick a "shift" one allows - Bloom would probably allow that epoch to epoch, even in some cases generation to generation, rights may become wrongs. But I'm thinking of a more radical conception of shifting contexts to which Bloom is clearly antagonistic. My good friend Andrew Epstein, who's been eavesdropping, reminded me of William James' words: "The truth of an idea is not a stagnant property inherent in it. Truth *happens* to an idea. It *becomes* true, is *made* true by events ... Meanwhile we have to live to-day but what truth we can get to-day, and be ready to-morrow to call it falsehood." As James insists, this pragmatic approach IS NOT a rejection of truth, just a fessing-up about its difficulty and contingency. -m. From paul.lake Thu May 3 00:04:48 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 23:04:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Trapped in paradox Message-ID: >To say that every stament is wrong >is simply to say that every "right" statement becomes wrong in the course >of time or through a shift in space (context). Again, including this one? If the above statement, that every right statement becomes wrong, is true, then it isn't true, because it does not become wrong in time. And so your statement is self-cancelling. You hold as absolute unchanging truth that there is no absolute unchanging truth. You can't escape the paradox. Paul Lake From eselinge Thu May 3 11:33:19 2001 From: eselinge (Eric Selinger) Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 10:33:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens as a Poet of Love Message-ID: Oops--my apologies, Russ. I didn't mean to be such a tease. My book is called _What Is It Then Between Us? Traditions of Love in American Poetry_, & it was published by Cornell UP back in 1998. It was on sale in their catalog not long ago, which may mean that it's going out of print, but for a while you could buy it at Borders and such. There is also a fascinating book by the poet Mark Halliday called _Wallace Stevens and the Interpersonal,_ which was published by...hang on...Princeton UP, in 1991. Thinking of Stevens reminds me of a lovely moment in the Wallace Stevens episode of Voices and Visions, that PBS poetry series from the late 1980s: James Merrill musing (that always seems the verb) that "Final Soliloquy of the Interior Paramour" was, for him, what the 23rd Psalm is for other people, a poem that keeps the imagination "new and tender and quick." (A quote from Herbert, maybe, that last?) As for Mr. Bloom, I must say that I've always thought he was better writing about religion than about poetry. _The American Religion_ was a very sharp and entertaining book. When he takes on the barbarians at the gates, he gets huffy and sad, by and large, and rather dull. The real question about poetry criticism in America today, I think, is who out there is as good at po-crit as Pauline Kael or Greil Marcus (or Lester Bangs, for that matter) in their own respective backyards? EMS From paul.lake Thu May 3 00:30:38 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 23:30:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cretan liar paradox Message-ID: Signifying We?ve learned of those French critics who Have got so tangled in their seine Of words, they can?t get out again. Words are null signs, they say. If true, Their own words twist to make them Cretans, Who, liars even as they lie, Signify they don?t signify. Paul Lake From Rsgwynn1 Thu May 3 11:42:21 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 11:42:21 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens as a Poet of Love Message-ID: <6b.13bd0bdf.2822d65d@cs.com> In a message dated 5/3/2001 10:34:12 AM Central Daylight Time, eselinge at wppost.depaul.edu writes: > The real question about poetry criticism in America today, I think, is who > out there is as good at po-crit as Pauline Kael or Greil Marcus (or Lester > Bangs, for that matter) in their own respective backyards? > > Not that I'd want any comparisons made, but Pauline Kael has been a much more potent influence on my own criticism than any academic critic I've ever read (I except Randall Jarrell from this category). She's the tops, in my opinion. Interestingly, she was a good friend of the poet-critic Weldon Kees at Berkeley, and they used to do a radio show together. Anthony Lane, one of the younger New Yorker film critics, is in her mold, and I wish there were a collection of his stuff available (he also writes about poetry from time to time). I wish that more of the caveat emptor approach to poetry-as-product could be found. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mmagee Thu May 3 11:43:13 2001 From: mmagee (Michael Magee) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 11:43:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Trapped in paradox In-Reply-To: from "Paul Lake" at May 2, 2001 11:04:48 pm Message-ID: <200105031543.LAA22804@dept.english.upenn.edu> According to Paul Lake: > > If the above statement, that every right statement becomes wrong, is true, > then it isn't true, because it does not become wrong in time. And so your > statement is self-cancelling. You hold as absolute unchanging truth that > there is no absolute unchanging truth. You can't escape the paradox. > Paul, what can I say? You've found, again, that point in my language where the logos hits the fan. The game smells not a little like sophistry to me but that's the way the cave crumbles when you give up painting on the walls for shining the light of day on said paintings. I suppose now that any sentence, any series of words with capital letter on left and period on right, seeks consent, receives it sometimes and not others, from some and not others, including this one. I would rather consider what that sentence is designed to do for some audience at some time, take your pick, and then what it in fact does. What would happen if you found a sentence, let alone uttered one, which was true for everyone, even for a second. "It might bring - what - some flowers soon?" A free burrito supreme at Taco Bell? Now there's something we all can agree on. Running for the border, -m. From Rsgwynn1 Thu May 3 11:44:18 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 11:44:18 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Cretan liar paradox Message-ID: Doesn't this same paradox frame one of Vonnegut's novels? The one about Ice-9? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Thu May 3 12:24:57 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 12:24:57 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Cretan liar paradox Message-ID: In a message dated 5/3/01 10:46:06 AM Central Daylight Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: > Doesn't this same paradox frame one of Vonnegut's novels? The one about > Ice-9? > Cat's Cradle, now that I've had my coffee. From rkubie Thu May 3 12:27:50 2001 From: rkubie (Rachel Kubie) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 12:27:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Yusef Komunyakaa at Johns Hopkins in Baltimore this Sunday (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 11:06:59 -0400 From: Chuck Beckman To: Rachel Kubie Yusef Komunyakaa to Give Fourth Annual Joshua Ringel Memorial Lecture Sunday, May 6 at Johns Hopkins' Mudd Hall Pulitzer-prize winning poet Yusef Komunyakaa will give the fourth annual Joshua Ringel Memorial Lecture on Sunday, May 6, 2001, at 3 p.m. in Mudd Hall at The Johns Hopkins University Homewood Campus. Poet, essayist, and librettist Komunyakaa won the Pulitzer Prize for poetry in 1994 and teaches at Princeton University. Kirkus Reviews calls Komunyakaa's writing "American poetry at its visionary best." Komunyakaa's blues- and jazz-influenced poetry will be preceded by a jazz quartet performance beginning at 2:30. The performance, lecture, and post-reading reception with Mr. Komunyakaa are free and open to the public. Information and directions: 410-516-0251. From halvard Thu May 3 14:22:42 2001 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 14:22:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: poultry stamps In-Reply-To: <3AF12448.3B2C@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: > Sure, a lot of poetry- > lovers no doubt thought the contest too silly to > participate in, but still . . . > > --Bob G. Quite possibly they respect poets too much to want to lick their behinds. Hal "That's the way the world goes, and it's not going well." --Bertolt Brecht Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From JackKerouac25 Thu May 3 14:36:58 2001 From: JackKerouac25 (JackKerouac25 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 14:36:58 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Auden Message-ID: <42.1439f20c.2822ff4a@aol.com> New Poetry Devotees: I'm trying to read some new things this summer (for me, folks, new for me). One poet that I've recently developed somewhat of a taste for is W.H. Auden. Can you all recommend some place to start? Is his _Collected Poems_ a nice introduction or should I look elsewhere? Additionally, can anyone recommend a good book of essays on Auden? Thanks in advance. Jeffrey L. Newberry Adjunct Instructor Department of English and Foreign Languages University of West Florida 11000 University Parkway Pensacola, FL 32514 850.474.2923 850.473.7330 From paul.lake Thu May 3 03:28:14 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 02:28:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] This is not a statement. Message-ID: >The game smells not a little like sophistry >To me but that's the way the cave crumbles when you give up painting on >the walls for shining the light of day on said paintings. So statements in language don't have truth value because language--and truth--are contingent on speaker, audience, and context, but you have access to some essentialist Platonic light which you shine on the language pictures of others, thus illuminating their contingency and falsehood. The problem is that you have to use language pictures yourself to describe the falsehood of language pictures, thus you're back in the cave scrawling "All sentences (including this) are untrue." And you accuse MY argument of being "a little bit like sophistry"? Paul Lake From jdavis Thu May 3 14:42:53 2001 From: jdavis (Jordan Davis) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 14:42:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Cretan liar paradox In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Paul - What if - and this is a big what if - the Cretan was ahead-of-his-time sarcastic and/or identity-conscious - and had put quotation marks around "All Cretans are liars." What if that scene is read not as a symbolic logic problem but as a dialect/ethnicity misunderstanding scene, a la Foucault's famous Parisian trial of the peasant? Happy trails, y'all - Jordan From JackKerouac25 Thu May 3 14:47:17 2001 From: JackKerouac25 (JackKerouac25 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 14:47:17 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Disordered System? Message-ID: Well, with all this arguing going on about language paradoxes on the list, I figured that I'd share a grad school story: We were sitting in contemporary literary theory one cold February night discussing post-structuralism. The class consisted of a retired US Navy guy (who just happened to be auditing the class), three "regular" grad students (full-time--they also worked in the language lab with me), a surfer named John (another grad student), and yours truly, a redneck trying desperately at the time to hide his southern roots. The prof (whom I won't name) looked up at us after reading a long passage from Derrida's "Sign, Structure, and Play" (I think that's the name of the essay) and said, "So you see, language is a hopelessly disordered system." I looked at the Navy guy; he looked at me. We shared a communal shrug, and I raised my hand. "Hey, Doc?" "Yes, Mr. Newberry?" "If language is a disordered system, why do we still use it?" The prof then proceeded to go off on a rather unenlightening diatribe. I promptly tuned him out. At the break, the Navy guy and I were standing outside smoking a cigarette, and he looked at me. "Hey, Newberry, you know, if language is a disordered system, it's a damn good way to disorganize something, don't you think?" I nodded, happy that I wasn't the only one confused by language games. Cheers to all, Newberry (Sorry about all the parentheses!) (see?) Jeffrey L. Newberry Adjunct Instructor Department of English and Foreign Languages University of West Florida 11000 University Parkway Pensacola, FL 32514 850.474.2923 850.473.7330 From cstroffo Thu May 3 14:22:06 2001 From: cstroffo (chris stroffolino) Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 14:22:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens, Bloom... References: Message-ID: <3AF1A1CF.93189DB7@earthlink.net> Hello To try to gather some of these thoughts together on Stevens and on Bloom (whose best book on poetry at least I believe, is on Stevens---which is not to say necessarily that it is the best book on Stevens), I was wondering if anybody on this list might be up for a little "experiment." Like what we I take a poem at random in Stevens' Collected (I'm thinking of either "The Owl in The Sarcophagus" or "Esthetique du Mal"), and also look at Bloom's reading of them (since he does talk about both--I just checked), and get into an intertextual dialogue with them, and with each other--- I don't expect this to be done quickly (i.e. we can take our time, I wanna do it to-- in private at least, but wanted to see if there was any interest in not just offering our own readings of these poems, but also looking at Bloom's too, and arguing or what-have-you...)... Maybe this could help focus this discussion a little more, even though (or perhaps because) it'sa 90 degree day in may and I'm more resistant to Stevens than I was a month ago (i'm interested in questioning if not necessarily rebukling that resistance), and besides quite a few of you are from different climates... Chris Stroffolino > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From moira_russell Thu May 3 15:21:26 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 11:21:26 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Auden Message-ID: "The Dog beneath the Skin" is a nifty neglected play by Auden, which I've always thought should have more readers. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From moira_russell Thu May 3 15:24:08 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 11:24:08 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Disordered System? Message-ID: Jeff Newberry wrote: >We were sitting in contemporary literary theory one cold February night >discussing post-structuralism. Oohhh....bad BAD flashback to graduate school there. That and someone's earlier reference to Foucault make me want to go lie down with plenty of cold compresses. I remember an hour misspent in one lit theory class arguing over what the _exact_ meaning of "metonymy" was. Brr. Moira russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From antrobin Thu May 3 15:29:08 2001 From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 12:29:08 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon References: Message-ID: <069e01c0d407$937ee380$19acefd8@0021936706> Amber, By "fundamental human experience" I mean those things that all people have in common, not the things that differentiate them. I'll refer you to Shylock's speech, if you cut me do i not bleed, etc... The particularities of human experience are of course, different, and I think the more diverse forms of expression and points of view that literature allows, the better. What I'm responding to is the notion that a person of category X should write about the concerns of category X, and not doing so makes said person a traitor to X. Also, I have a hunch that there is just as much bad "ethnic" poetry as anything else, but the former, at least in the current climate, goes over better because for some, the political and social circumstances and the particulars of a poet's identity are more important than the poetry itself. I hesitate to name names...but I'm sure many of us can come up with our own examples. So to address your point, yes there is a market, but I don't think the market for this sort of thing is driven by a desire to see "good poetry" from other cultural points of view as it is a desire to simply see other cultures and identities represented. Which is not to say there isn't good work out there. There is. >When was your funding cut off? But that, too, is not my point. My funding was cut off when I refused to sign a document promising to "shape up," i.e. write "ethnic" poetry, among other things. Tony From antrobin Thu May 3 15:30:49 2001 From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 12:30:49 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] "ethnic" writing References: <200105031302.JAA27492@sp1n189at0.watson.ibm.com> Message-ID: <069f01c0d407$944fef20$19acefd8@0021936706> Richard wrote: > Edward Jones' collection of stories, "Lost in the City," tells > very much about life in and around Washington DC as experienced > by urban blacks, but his characters are very human (and black), > rather than "black" characters. I think this distiction is > crucial. There are some who would contend, though, that this distinction is a false one, and "blackness" is an essential part of "black" humanity, and that writing characters who are "human" rather than "black humans" reveals a desire on the part of the author to reject his "blackness." I can't quite get with this. Tony From Jholmes Thu May 3 15:56:50 2001 From: Jholmes (Janet Holmes) Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 13:56:50 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: No papers! Message-ID: Heh. Didn't get this until this afternoon...but I DO feel like a good girl! Janet >>> aprentiss at agnesscott.edu 05/02/01 12:58PM >>> Read posts! -Amber -----Original Message----- From: Janet Holmes To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 5/2/2001 2:33 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens, Gwynn, Anastasios, etc. Russ, all wonderful Stevens poems, but for my money "Two Figures in Dense Violet Night" and "Long and Sluggish Lines" need to be on the list too, as well as his wonderful titles ("Tea at the Palaz of Hoon," "The Curtains in the House of the Metaphysician," "The Revolutionists Stop for Orangeade," etc.). Re: Sam Gwynn--of course his poems aren't about himself. Not for nothing did he write "The Narcissiad," which is about almost everybody else! And a long way back, in response to Anastasios's comment "I think that the 'contests' and 'fellowships' etc. make people aim their poetry at a certain poetry reading population/segment, which compromises integrity. Perhaps, I am way off base here, but it is always fascinating to me to who wins what and why. I think sometimes the economics dictate aesthetics and dilute integrity." I'm writing a talk on specifically this topic right now, and I do agree with you; I'd go so far as to say that the yearning of poets to publish in journals and anthologies also dictates the length and structure of many poems. But as editor of a press that is just instituting a contest with the hope of discovering new or underrecognized writers, I'm not willing to go so far as to decry all literary competitions. Sure, we all know of cases in which contests were won by friends or lovers of the judges (I lost two such when seeking to place my first book, though one judge sent me a "letter of encouragement" through the contest administrators separately) or former students, or whatever. Poets are just as tawdry as other humans. But I don't think one can paint contests and fellowships as necessarily bereft of integrity. (Can't afford to--nearly everything I have in print is the result of an anonymous competition.) I used to think that self-publishing was also a bad idea, but can n! ow appreciate that it may be the only way for an "unpopular" or unusual kind of writing to see print at all (cf. Whitman, Virginia Woolf, etc.). Most will fade away unnoticed, but thank goodness for the work that really *was* genius a bit too extraordinary to surface through the usual methods. Janet Holmes ("Grade papers? Read posts? Grade papers? Read posts?") _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From acgold01 Thu May 3 16:01:02 2001 From: acgold01 (Alan C. Golding) Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 16:01:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcement of new book series Message-ID: The University of Wisconsin Press announces a new book series on Contemporary North American Poetry General Editors: Lynn Keller, University of Wisconsin-Madison Alan Golding, University of Louisville Adalaide Morris, University of Iowa This new series will document, analyze, and seek to sustain the many exciting and diverse developments in North American poetry since the 1950s by publishing critical studies of recent poetry, collections of essays on poetics, biographies of individual poets or groups of poets, as well as correspondence and memoirs. The Wisconsin Series on Contemporary North American Poetry aims to represent a variety of contemporary aesthetics and to illuminate ongoing debates about the material forms and contexts of recent poetry. As part of its project, the series will commission from leading scholars new guides to significant poets or poetry movements. We also welcome recommendations for the reprinting of important books of criticism, poetry, and poetics that are currently unavailable. Advisory Board Members: Charles Altieri, University of California-Berkeley Alfred Arteaga University of California-Berkeley Bonnie Costello, Boston University Michael Davidson, University of California-San Diego Johanna Drucker, University of Virginia Rachel Blau DuPlessis, Temple University Thomas Gardner, Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University Linda A. Kinnahan, Duquesne University Aldon Nielsen, Pennsylvania State University Marjorie Perloff, Stanford University (emerita) Lorenzo Thomas, University of Houston Robert von Hallberg, University of Chicago Please send inquiries and proposals to any of the three general editors. Manuscript submissions should be sent to Robert A. Mandel, Director of the University of Wisconsin Press, with notation that they are intended for the Series on Contemporary North American Poetry. Alan Golding Department of English University of Louisville Louisville, KY 40292 acgold01 at louisville.edu Lynn Keller Department of English University of Wisconsin 600 N. Park Street Madison, WI 53706 rlkeller at facstaff.wisc.edu Dee Morris Department of English University of Iowa Iowa City, IA 52242 dee-morris at uiowa.edu Robert A. Mandel, Director after 7/1/01:Robert A. Mandel, Director University of Wisconsin Press University of Wisconsin Press 2537 Daniels Street 1930 Monroe Street Madison, WI 53718 Madison WI 53711 ramandel at facstaff.wisc.edu From paul.lake Thu May 3 04:58:15 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 03:58:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cretan liar paradox In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 5/3/01 1:42 PM, Jordan Davis at jdavis at panix.com wrote: > Paul - > > What if - and this is a big what if - the Cretan was ahead-of-his-time > sarcastic and/or identity-conscious - and had put quotation marks around > "All Cretans are liars." What if that scene is read not as a symbolic > logic problem but as a dialect/ethnicity misunderstanding scene, a la > Foucault's famous Parisian trial of the peasant? > > Happy trails, y'all - > Jordan > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Then we'd have to have a dual standards of truth and justice. Anyone who denied the authenticity of the Cretan's language by pointing out the apparent paradox in his words would be sentenced to sensitivity training. Logic is, after all, a Greek male construct. Cretan activists would denounce the logician's ethnocentricity and call for an apology--and his job. It's one thing for a Cretan to say "All Cretans lie" and quite another for, say, a mainland Greek to repeat the phrase in order to examine its logic in a philosophy class. The truth of any statement does, after all, depend upon the ethnic identity of the speaker, power relations between him/her and the rest of the society, and social rules about what is politically correct to say. Truth is contingent on historical context; that is, on what one can force others to say or not to say. At least, that's what learned opinion now holds. Paul Lake From Rsgwynn1 Thu May 3 16:09:18 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 16:09:18 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Cretan liar paradox Message-ID: From kellogg Thu May 3 17:16:45 2001 From: kellogg (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 17:16:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cretan liar paradox References: Message-ID: <3AF1CABD.908AF1F2@duke.edu> Paul Lake wrote: > on 5/3/01 1:42 PM, Jordan Davis at jdavis at panix.com wrote: > > > Paul - > > > > What if - and this is a big what if - the Cretan was ahead-of-his-time > > sarcastic and/or identity-conscious - and had put quotation marks around > > "All Cretans are liars." What if that scene is read not as a symbolic > > logic problem but as a dialect/ethnicity misunderstanding scene, a la > > Foucault's famous Parisian trial of the peasant? > > > > Happy trails, y'all - > > Jordan > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > Then we'd have to have a dual standards of truth and justice. Anyone who > denied the authenticity of the Cretan's language by pointing out the > apparent paradox in his words would be sentenced to sensitivity training. > Logic is, after all, a Greek male construct. Cretan activists would denounce > the logician's ethnocentricity and call for an apology--and his job. It's > one thing for a Cretan to say "All Cretans lie" and quite another for, say, > a mainland Greek to repeat the phrase in order to examine its logic in a > philosophy class. The truth of any statement does, after all, depend upon > the ethnic identity of the speaker, power relations between him/her and the > rest of the society, and social rules about what is politically correct to > say. Truth is contingent on historical context; that is, on what one can > force others to say or not to say. > > At least, that's what learned opinion now holds. > > Paul Lake A clever caricature, Paul, if a bit breathless in its exaggeration. On an wholly digressive note (but what in this thread is not digressive), I might point out that "Truth is contingent on historical context; that is, on what one can force others to say or not to say" sounds like one of Bush's arguments before the Supreme Court last year. As for me, I'm all on the side of the Sophists (though not of the Bushies). Not for nothing was Plato suspicious of poets. David Kellogg Assistant Director, University Writing Program Duke University (919) 660-4357; FAX (919) 660-4372 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg From moira_russell Thu May 3 17:34:44 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 13:34:44 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cretan liar paradox Message-ID: David Graham wrote: >As for me, I'm all on the side of the Sophists (though not of the Bushies). > Not for nothing was Plato suspicious of poets. Apropos of this there is an interesting essay on the Republic online at http://www.mala.bc.ca/~johnstoi/introser/republic.htm I tried but failed to find the citation online where Socrates talks about the proper treatment of Homer. Isn't it somethng like, we shold appreciate his great talent, and crown him with laurels, and send him on his way and sing hymns instead....? Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From mmagee Thu May 3 17:36:44 2001 From: mmagee (Michael Magee) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 17:36:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] This is not a statement. In-Reply-To: from "Paul Lake" at May 3, 2001 02:28:14 am Message-ID: <200105032136.RAA18115@dept.english.upenn.edu> According to Paul Lake: > > So statements in language don't have truth value because language--and > truth--are contingent on speaker, audience, and context, but you have access > to some essentialist Platonic light which you shine on the language > pictures of others, thus illuminating their contingency and falsehood. The > problem is that you have to use language pictures yourself to describe the > falsehood of language pictures, thus you're back in the cave scrawling "All > sentences (including this) are untrue." > > And you accuse MY argument of being "a little bit like sophistry"? > > Paul Lake > Paul, - and this is the last thing I'll say as I feel this tete-a-tete is becoming unproductive - you've misread my intentions. That's you're right as a reader and, given our differences of opinion, somewhat inevitable I guess. But in your reading of my last post, for what it's worth, you missed both the playfulness of it and the fact that I was decidedly marking myself as one of the cave painters, whatever that means. So, let's "agree to disagree" as my mother says, unless one of us adds something new to the discussion. I'mstarting to feel like the Corinthians! :) -m. From paul.lake Thu May 3 06:31:22 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 05:31:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cretans and cretins Message-ID: >As for me, I'm all on the side of the Sophists (though not of the Bushies). >Not >for nothing was Plato suspicious of poets. As poets are suspicious of Plato. But the Sophists? I dunno. I've been mulling a poem about them for a while. Maybe soon. With luck, it'll be clever and full of breathless exaggeration. Paul Lake From DICK Thu May 3 18:35:26 2001 From: DICK (DICK at watson.ibm.com) Date: Thu, 3 May 01 18:35:26 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] ethnic writing Message-ID: <200105032237.SAA36158@sp1n189at0.watson.ibm.com> Tony Robinson wrote: >>Richard wrote: >> >>> Edward Jones' collection of stories, "Lost in the City," tells >>> very much about life in and around Washington DC as experienced >>> by urban blacks, but his characters are very human (and black), >>> rather than "black" characters. I think this distiction is >>> crucial. >> >> >>There are some who would contend, though, that this distinction is a false >>one, and "blackness" is an essential part of "black" humanity, and that >>writing characters who are "human" rather than "black humans" reveals a >>desire on the part of the author to reject his "blackness." I can't quite >>get with this. >> >>Tony I'm sure what you say is true, but I can't separate that stance much from the bigots' "All are " except that the adjective is not optional. Characters in artful fiction/poetry are not devoid of ethnic character but have life in all dimensions rather than only their ethnicity. IMHO Amber asks how to make the distinction: I can only offer examples that I've made up my mind about: Richard Wright's "Native Son," Alan Paton's "Too Late the Phalarope" (this is perhaps the greatest novel I've ever read), the novels of Nadine Gordimer, the poetry of Marilyn Nelson and Robert Hayden and Lucille Clifton. Richard From mbales Thu May 3 19:53:14 2001 From: mbales (Marcus Bales) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 19:53:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon In-Reply-To: <200105031444.KAA09934@dept.english.upenn.edu> References: from "Marcus Bales" at May 2, 2001 08:20:06 pm Message-ID: Mike Magee: > ... it depends on how quick a "shift" one allows - Bloom would > probably allow that epoch to epoch, even in some cases generation to > generation, rights may become wrongs. But I'm thinking of a more > radical conception of shifting contexts to which Bloom is clearly > antagonistic.<< Clearly, then, I don't see what that radical conception consists of yet. Perhaps you can clue me in. > My good friend Andrew Epstein, who's been eavesdropping, > reminded me of William James' words: "The truth of an idea is not a > stagnant property inherent in it. Truth *happens* to an idea. It > *becomes* true, is *made* true by events ... Meanwhile we have to live > to-day but what truth we can get to-day, and be ready to-morrow to > call it falsehood."<< What sort of "an idea" are you talking about? Are you talking about the sorts of ideas in the general order of magnitude of "It's true that Mike Magee is considered an excellent poet by those who publih his poems", or about the sorts of ideas in the general order of magnitude of "It's wrong to murder"? I could agree that the more one lives in the moment, the less concerned one is with the consequences of one's utterances or acts, the more likely it is that it may seem like a good idea to say that truth (or falseness) just happens to an idea on a moment by moment basis, contingent on one's immediate personal impulses. Is that what you mean to say? > As James insists, this pragmatic approach IS NOT a rejection of truth, > just a fessing-up about its difficulty and contingency.<< But still, agreeing that truth is both difficult to identify and contingent upon circumstances doesn't address the difference between saying "Every statement is wrong" and saying "Every right statement becomes wrong through shifts in time or context", unless you mean to hold that the former is merely shorthand for the latter, a sort of term of art that is common enough that you might reasonably expect your audience to understand the code. Is that what you're saying? mbales at cybergate.net From dzauhar Thu May 3 20:40:18 2001 From: dzauhar (David Zauhar) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 19:40:18 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Auden In-Reply-To: <42.1439f20c.2822ff4a@aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 May 2001 JackKerouac25 at aol.com wrote: > New Poetry Devotees: > > I'm trying to read some new things this summer (for me, folks, new for me). > One poet that I've recently developed somewhat of a taste for is W.H. Auden. > Can you all recommend some place to start? Is his _Collected Poems_ a nice > introduction or should I look elsewhere? Additionally, can anyone recommend > a good book of essays on Auden? > I'm a fan of the selected myself, but there's plenty of Auden to go around. My favorite piece by W.H.A., though, is his travel book written with Louis MacNeice, _Letters From Iceland_, an odd mix that includes verse epistles between Auden and MacNeice, a few chrystomathies concerning the curiousities of Iceland, an extended letter from Auden to Lord Byron. Quite fun, considering it was written, reluctantly, to fulfill a contract. Dave Zauhar > Thanks in advance. > > Jeffrey L. Newberry > Adjunct Instructor > Department of English and Foreign Languages > University of West Florida > 11000 University Parkway > Pensacola, FL 32514 > 850.474.2923 > 850.473.7330 > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From grahamd Wed May 2 12:32:09 2001 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 11:32:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Western Canon In-Reply-To: <200105012304.TAA24260@sp1n189at0.watson.ibm.com> Message-ID: For what it's worth, I was thinking specifically not of Bloom's *The Western Canon* but of his diatribe, "They have the numbers; we, the heights," which introduced his Best of the Best American antho. That essay is available online, along with a number of responses to it: http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR23.2/bloom.html I'm amazed by Bloom's erudition, too. And I've found him an invaluable critic of the Romantics. But from where I sit, his taste in contemporary poetry is uncomfortably narrow, since it excludes a great deal of poetry that I admire. I particularly like what David Mura said in response to Bloom's essay: http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR23.3/mura.html Here are the opening paragraph's of Mura's essay: _____________________ In the world according to Harold Bloom, there are those who occupy the heights of objective judgment and the barbarians below. Or, as Bloom would have it, what he reads with pleasure and profit must possess lasting aesthetic value. Those who do not see that value have been blinded to the true purpose of literature by a political or ideological agenda. In contrast, Bloom's judgment has nothing to do with his race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnic origin, or politics. He possesses no extra-literary agenda, no personal biases. If we point out that all the writers he holds up in admiration are white and most of them male, we are replacing objective literary criteria with sociology. I am not convinced that Bloom's sight is so unequivocally accurate and god-like. When he proclaims that his opponents are entirely preoccupied with the race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnic origin, and political purpose of the would-be poet, I see either a misunderstanding or a mischaracterization of their arguments. Characteristics such as race and gender surely suggest areas of study that might aid in understanding and evaluating a poet. Moreover, for certain poets, such study might be required to appreciate fully their aesthetic value. It does not follow that matters of technique or analyses of form should be dismissed or denied preeminent importance-though even here one might certainly find instances where the forms a poet employs derive from aspects in their background. At the same time, Bloom would probably maintain that the critic's own background or identity ought to be irrelevant. Or at least, that his must be. Perhaps Harold Bloom is special. But for myself and every other critic I've encountered, such factors are relevant. It's not a question of whether we carry prejudices and blinders within our psyches, but what kind. But I suppose that for Harold Bloom, I'm just one of those (critics and poets) who have politicized literature and broken from that Edenic paradise where literature possessed no political designs or effects and existed in a separate realm altogether. According to Bloom, remnants of that apolitical period existed before the onslaught of the sixties and the resulting deterioration of culture. Yet even in the late seventies, when I was a graduate student, the curriculum I studied would have probably met Harold Bloom's approval. Other than a handful of poems by Amiri Baraka, all the poets were white, and the overwhelming majority were white males. According to Bloom, then, I studied the apolitical canon. That's not how I remember it. Certain professors and critics such as James Dickey implied or explicitly stated that women were less capable than men of writing great literature (the logic here: if women were more capable, then of course we'd be studying them). Similarly, I was told outright and subtly that to identify myself as an Japanese American or Asian American writer or a writer of color was to relegate myself to a literary ghetto-- to enter literature through a back door affirmative action program. This only reinforced the cultural lessons I had learned growing up in an all white suburb, wanting to assimilate and erase my difference, wanting to disassociate myself from other Japanese-Americans or people of color. I told myself I wanted to be judged as an individual, for my own merits. What I knew subconsciously was that I really wanted to be white. And nothing in my literary training through grad school ever led me to question this desire or enabled me to formulate any other understanding of my identity. _______________________________ David Graham >It happens I'm reading Bloom's book right now, and I'm >totally engrossed at the enormous breadth of his reading, >understanding, and ability to make sweeping comparisons and >crossreferences, and to communicate his enthusiasms clearly >and gracefully. > >I'm just amazed that David Graham can use words like >"poverty of imagination" and "ludicrous" when speaking of >Harold Bloom. > > >David Graham wrote: >>>In this regard, the poverty of imagination in a critic like Harold Bloom is >>>really stunning, I think. He has no ears for so many different kinds of >>>contemporary poetry (especially those based in the oral tradition) that his >>>particular brand of elitism just seems ludicrous. >>> > >Richard __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From archambeau Wed May 2 14:30:04 2001 From: archambeau (Robert Archambeau) Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 13:30:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Call for Papers (or Proposals) on Ronald Johnson References: Message-ID: <3AF0522C.78809C54@lfc.edu> Eric, We'd be interested in reviewing this at Samizdat when it is published. Robert Archambeau Eric Selinger wrote: > Hello, everyone. I'm currently co-editing a collection of essays on the poet Ronald Johnson. Although the book is filling up nicely, we're still interested in hearing from potential contributors. If you have an essay you're itching to write on RJ's work--especially on the earlier poetry, or the concrete poems, but we're open to offers--please contact me directly at eselinge at wppost.depaul.edu. > > Best, > > EMS > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From CobbCoStudioArts Fri May 4 02:14:05 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 23:14:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Trapped in paradox Message-ID: <20010504061405.0044E36EE@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From BobGrumman Fri May 4 06:03:09 2001 From: BobGrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 06:03:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Call for Papers (or Proposals) on Ronald Johnson References: Message-ID: <3AF27E5D.645C@nut-n-but.net> Glad to here such a book is being done. Ronald Johnson is one of our most under-recognized poets. Question: were his concrete poems ever collected anywhere? I'd love to do an essay on them, but only have a few of them--the ones in the concrete poetry anthologies. --Bob G. From mbales Fri May 4 06:45:10 2001 From: mbales (Marcus Bales) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 06:45:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bush Opera In-Reply-To: <3AF27E5D.645C@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Bush Opera RS Walker, c2001 In Act One, Dubya has just been elected President by a very narrow margin. The Democrats are devastated and angry, and are not at all certain they wish to accept the outcome. As the curtain rises on the opera, Bill Clinton is leaving Washington, DC, and keeps having departure ceremonies. Dubya, meanwhile, is trying to get the cameras to pay attention to him and reassures the public that virtue has been restored to the White House. The opening chorale, "Goodness In Office" (no more flooziescandala), is sung as a sextet. The camera shifts to Al Gore, who is departing quietly with Tipper, via limosine. Several Democrats rush up to him to bid him farewell and to wish him luck. Dan Rather appears on the scene and sings "We Will Find a Way" (dredgi uppa more recounta), following which Gore sings "Home to Mend Fences" (fooking chads falla wronga). He gives Tipper a long, lingering kiss. Act Two begins with Laura Bush telling Dubya he must really have a talk with one of the First Twins, Jenna, about proper conduct at college. Her aria, "Remember Your Name Is Bush" (drinka da good grappa), convinces Dubya he needs to speak with his child. His counsel to her, "The Eyes of the Nation Are Upon You" (hypocriti pious crappola), is followed by her promise to be a good student "I Shall Study Until Dawn" (kegga Sigma Chi). Laura joins with a caution to Jenna not to drive if impaired "Don't Run Down Old Boyfriends" (secreta service take-a you anywhere), and the act closes with the three of them singing "Family Values" (no looka too close). Act Three begins with word that the Chinese have damaged an American surveillance airplane, which has been forced to land on Hainan Island, in China. This information is brought to Dubya by Dick Cheney and Colin Powell, who sing the duet "The Commies Have Captured Our Spy Plane" (caught pantaloni down). Dubya's first reaction is concern for the lives of our service personnel as he sings "Let Us Do Nothing That Might Harm Our Brave Men and Women" (bomba da chinks), which he states on national television. He receives further counsel from various national security advisors who sing "We Must Be Patient" (whazzamatta, you crazy). Laura, too, offers him counsel in her aria, "Your First International Incident!" (hottadoggie, you look-a presidential) and Bush retreats with Laura to their ranch disappearing from the nightly news for several days. Bush returns to Washington to urge passage of his tax cut proposal, singing "The Rich Deserve a Tax Cut, Too" (wasto multi millioni) as the act ends. Act Four begins after the safe return of the captured service personnel, whose homecoming Bush decided not to attend, explaining "Let Them Have the Spotlight" (ask-a me no questioni about Texas Air National Guarda). A chorus of reporters soon appears in the Oval Office to tell Bush about questions being asked regarding former Senator Bob Kerrey's Bronze Star, and whether Kerrey killed innocent civilians, singing "We Only Want to Learn the Truth" (democrato hero in deepa shitti). Dubya declines to comment, singing "As Far As I Know, Bob Kerrey Is an Honorable Man" (une less in oh-four). The reporters close the act with "Does Anyone Believe Us?" (publica desgustanta con media). In the brief Epilogue, Laura sings "It Is a Joy to Be First Lady" (whazza First Twin doing now) while Dubya sings counterpoint "America Loves Us" (hooboy, oh-two looks-a dicey), as the curtain falls. mbales at cybergate.net From JforJames Fri May 4 08:56:58 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 08:56:58 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Hecht in advance Message-ID: <21.b29a6ba.2824011a@aol.com> Date: 5/3/01 11:02:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: webmaster at randomhouse.com Reply-to: knopfwebmaster at randomhouse.com To: JforJames at aol.com A poem by Anthony Hecht from the upcoming collection THE DARKNESS AND THE LIGHT (June 12): Lot?s Wife How simple the pleasures of those childhood days, Simple but filled with exquisite satisfactions. The iridescent labyrinth of the spider, Its tethered tensor nest of polygons Puffed by the breeze to a little bellying sail-- Merely observing this gave infinite pleasure. The sound of rain. The gentle graphite veil Of rain that makes of the world a steel engraving, Full of soft fadings and faint distances. The self-congratulations of a fly, Rubbing its hands. The brown bicameral brain Of a walnut. The smell of wax. The feel Of sugar to the tongue: a delicious sand. One understands immediately how Proust Might cherish all such postage-stamp details. Who can resist the charms of retrospection? Copyright (c) 2001 by Anthony Hecht From mmagee Fri May 4 09:08:24 2001 From: mmagee (Michael Magee) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 09:08:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dunning langpo In-Reply-To: <3AF1AACD.4C8EAB1A@columbia.edu> from "Jeffrey Jullich" at May 3, 2001 03:00:30 pm Message-ID: <200105041308.JAA12574@dept.english.upenn.edu> Hi all you Buffalos and new-poetry listees (to whom this is cross-posted) I wanted to say something about Jeffrey Jullich's last post to the Buffalo List, part of the "Dunn gets Pulitzer" thread which has evolved into something different, specifically this idea: The shell of the ("traditional") prosodic structure may be inherently neutral and, as an empty vessel, equally --- if not more --- malleable to an asyntactical "content." And richard's response: "Jeffrey. The New Formalists writing in metre and rhyme are a pathetic lot. Who wants to be bound by a lot of quite arbitrary rules?" I'm not particularly sympathetic to New Formalism (surprised?) but I have become interested lately in rhyme. Below is an excerpt from a conversation I published between my brother (painter living in Brooklyn) and I for the new "Poets & Painters" series at the Writers House in Philly. We were talking about appropriating elements of traditional form (say, very photorealistic figure drawing, or descriptive writing which was unironized on the local level - - tho ironized by whatever it abridged perhaps) and I brought up the issue of rhyme. With apologies for any formatting problems (I've pasted this in and you know how that can be) here's what I said: [MIKE: Another way to consider this - - which involves not employing the styles of one's hip immediate predecessors but older more outmoded forms which the hip immediate predecessors deemed off limits - - is with Rhyme. As I mentioned the Language Poets (hip immediate predecessors who I've learned a lot from) were pretty antagonistic towards rhyme, with good reason: for one thing there was that sense, amazingly still around in the mainstream / big press world of poetry that rhyme was, if not always desirable, than at least difficult to do and thus a measure of Talent. For another, there was/is a sense that using sound to develop a rich texture had a philosophical/theological point behind it: that rhymes were a matter of Natural Convergences. So, using rhyme, you were either the Great Artificer or the Transcendental Sound Conveyor, and either way you were screwed ("no intuitive well of sonic richness," Bob Perelman insisted). A third option was/is doggerel: which has a long interesting history but it's tough avoiding "There once was a man from Nantucket?" and I think with doggerel you fall into the same problems we discussed regarding parody. So. So I think some younger poets are finding interesting, experimental ways to use rhyme, partly thanks to hip-hop, partly perhaps thanks to the various language theories focussed in on the materiality of the work. Part of the pain-in-the-ass that was Rhymed Poetry involved it's marriage to Narrative Poetry: so that the real sign of excellence involved keeping your rhymes invisible, out of the way of your story but nonetheless heard as sweet music. But what if rhyme actually drives what's being said: I walked in the forest like an elephant Everything I saw seemed irrelevant I walked through the forest like a donkey Everything I saw seemed on key I flew over the river Volga Around it milled a people vulgar That's from Eugene Ostashevsky's "I Locked the House of Myself" which is in Combo 7. The joke about rhyme directing narrative ("Everything I saw seemed on key") is played out in the next couplet where the people are vulgar not because they are vulgar (and here the poem takes on political overtones for me) but because of the need for an approximate sound. As I said, hip-hop often has this emphasis on the materiality of rhyme (jump-rope rhymes do to) and that first couplet reminds me of these ones from Busta Rhymes, "I roam through the forest / just like a Brontosaurus / Born in the month of may so my sign is Taurus / I kick you in the face like my fuckin' name was Chuck Norris." (I suppose there's a narrative coherence in the idea of masculine toughness but it's really about the search for a rhyme ?? the giveaway is in the need to keep extending the meter.) So, I find this a very interesting possibility. It's been around ?? Gertrude Stein does it with nursery rhyme adaptations, Harryette Mullen brings not only Stein but a whole history of African American speaking to bear on the use of rhyme in poems. Another writer doing it is Mark Sardinha (also in Combo 7, see "Stick me in a rib cage"), who I think is aided in his ability to put a new twist on it by his fluency in Portuguese.] Here is Sardinha's poem: stick me in a rib cage play me for my xylophone losing sucks the marrow bone but atrophy ain?t everything monkey in your space garage doing ether these and dozed damage in the fuselage to the tune of subterfuge in a room of telephones dust me off a love song for another fishing hole spear me please the rib cage put down the megaphone just a finger cut off years ago flotilla in a fish bowl Eve-seen men dispense with knees crawling in a traffic zone blame me for a pill of lint I haven?t got the slightest rib take me for one of those [NOTE: If this is interesting you at all, here's how our conversation continued. Lastly, there's a poem of my own in this vein at the bottom of the page.] MITCH: the idea of artifice seems important here. It seems like a dominant trend in late 20th cent. art and poetry is the desire to erase artifice (whatever that means, it's all artifice). Having art more closely approximate life, or art which has such a logical structure that its own directness denies artifice. Poems whose line structure mirrors the length of a breath, poems which have an off-the-cuff casualness, chatty like O'Hara. Art, like Minimalism that exists in the space that you and I inhabit, not the same space as a Rodin. This is realism, I guess, the same sort of impulse that made Caravaggio paint the way he painted rather than painting like Carracci. However, the use of rhyme seems to go against this impulse. This seems great and important but I don't know why. Maybe this is a way to become real again; what was a language the seemed to tear down artifice now seems artificial so that in order to feel *real* and authentic again one must go through the backdoor of artifice. Certainly this is the case for Currin (and maybe every other contemporary artist we've been talking about). The work (I think, but maybe not everyone would see it this way) feels "authentic" *because* of its artificial structure. I don't know. Anyway, it may be that Ostashevsky's poems function a bit in this way, rhyme is dumb and contrived which is a good thing because it allows one to address a whole set of issues which could not be addressed in a conventional ?? or rather, conventional avant-garde ?? poem. Now the notion of rhyme as it relates to African American cultural history may be a whole 'nother ball of wax, but it is important to the discussion. Let's see, Busta Rhymes is interesting because his rhymes are usually direct and dumb and he rhymes the same sound over and over and over again. His stuff feels really off the cuff (improvised) and meaning is derived not from the narrative but from the line to line, free associative connections, "how is he going to get out of this one." This seems to have a long African American lineage, certainly back to minstrelsy; A near-present day example of this comedic rhyming style, thought horrible, is Nipsy Russell. So Busta Rhymes takes on the artificial Jester role to arrive at something real, he goes through the back door. There's a lot of freedom gained, but a lot of authority lost, in playing the clown. I actually want my art to head more in that direction. Sean Landers is a good artist to look at in terms of playing the fool. Right now I'd say my art is a bit drier than I want it to be. MIKE: It's amazing how what you say about artifice and realism here echoes a statement by the language poet Charles Bernstein (who incidentally does work sometimes w/ rhyme in a way not unlike what I've been describing although I would say his version is playing more on Nursery rhymes and less on hip hop rhymes (if at all). Anyway, Bernstein says this in a an essay called "The Artifice of Absorption": Artifice "is a measure of a poem's intractability to being read as the sum of its devices & subject matters. In this sense, "artifice" is the contradiction of "realism", with its insistence on presenting an unmediated (immediate) experience of facts, either of the "external" world of nature or the "internal" world of the mind; for example, naturalistic representation or phenomenological consciousness mapping. Facts in poetry are primarily factitious. That seems pretty close to what your saying, right? And I would agree. What's funny is that Bernstein and his contemporaries shy away from certain kinds of artifice anyway, probably because the canon was a little too real for them in the 70s for the techniques found there to be used as an oppositional practice. (Poets like Richard Wilbur were still using very "artificial" forms ?? elaborate, "perfect" schemes of rhyme and meter ?? toward ends which the Langauge Poets didin't want any part of ?? precisely because someone like Wilbur was ultimately arguing for the naturalness of those forms: even if he wouldn't say so, it was the pure naturalness of "high culture," the rightness of it which underlay his practice. Then in the 80s you had the New Formalists following his lead. So it would've been a tightrope for the Language Poets to try appropriating heroic couplets or something, and I still don't think you could do it without really contextualizing it in some way ?? otherwise it will either simply be heroic couplets, or it will be a parody of them (and again, this problem of pardoy jumps out ?? who wants to be a parodist?) On the other hand, you have a young poet like K. Silem Mohammad who is definitely employing something like High Elizabethan Speech in his poems (see Combo 4 & 6). Take this quatrain, which seems to be all about this very issue of artifice. Mohammad is very canny about this, as he puts it in as a footnote (all italicized) to the wildly polyglot poem "Dietary of Ghostly Health": I am singing to the nutshell not the kernel of the phrase I am pining in the outskirts not the heart of the malaise I bled when I was thirsty and I wept when I was tired I took the thing I wept for and not what I desired So here you have, in something of a riddle, a similar discussion of inside/outside, natural/artifical that you and Bernstein address. But again, this isn't that far from "New Formalism" except that the content (the point about singing to the nutshell and pining in the outskirts) puts the form in stark relief and as a result puts its authority (as "natural" or as natural link in a chain of traditional practice) into doubt ?? plus of course you have the fact that it's contextualized by all sorts of other speech and writing. We're back to this issue of appropriation. Mohammad clearly isn't just lampooning this "high speech" ?? but neither is he celebrating it, except in some subversive way. Is that subversion social/political or is this a "guilty pleasure" or both. One of the things we face is that the work of subverting the Traditional was done for us ?? do sonnets really need any more subverting?? Or naturalists paintings (or for that matter Ab Ex paintings which aspire to "psychological depth")?? There's always the option to subvert immediate high profile predecessors (for the sake of simplicity let's say Minimalists of many stripes and Language Poets) but who cares? And on top of who cares that always depends on or at least falls into an Oedipal narrative which itself has been debunked and looks ridiculous. Phooey. Plus I like the collaborative, both within and across generations. Interesting that you bring up O'Hara. I think the "naturalness" of his writing, the chatty "hey, so I'm going to lunch" aspect, is natural-ized by his immediate followers more than by O'Hara himself. For one thing, early O'Hara can feel very artificial, in the best sense, even using "dumb" rhymes in the way we've been discussing: "At night Chinamen jump / on Asia with a thump," and then later in the poem my personal favorite, "these apples roll beneath our buttocks like a heath // full of Chinese thrushes / flushed from China's bushes." Talk about artificial! It turns the "mystery" of China and Chinese people inside out ?? that poem should be called "I don't know shit about China." The later O'Hara ?? the "I do this I do that" poems, are artificial in a different way: it has to do with thinking of the Self as theatrical: like in "Why I am Not a Painter" the way his descriptions of his own movements feel like stage directions ?? "I drop in?I go?I go?I drop in." You're right, though, the off-the-cuff casualness can make O'Hara feel like a beat poet sometimes, like Gregory Corso, say (who O'Hara really admired) and the issue of the line being the length of a breath (Olson's idea associated w/ the Black Mountain poets) was certainly necessary as a way to opt out of the Formalism of the Day but had its own pitfalls too. Actually, if you read O'Hara's "Personism: A Manifesto" as a response to (if not a full repudiation of) Olson's "Projective Verse" (where this line/breath connection takes full flower), then this oft-quoted line of O'Hara's becomes pretty interesting: As for measure and for other technical apparatus, that's just common sense: if you're going to buy a pair of pants you want them to be tight enough so everyone will want to go to bed with you. There's nothing metaphysical about it. Unless of course you flatter yourself into thinking that what you're experiencing is "yearning." Of course some poets & critics say that that's precisely what O'Hara was experiencing, yearning, and that desire is his metaphysics, his transcendental Signifier. I don't buy that though. **************** POLITICAL SONG, CONFUSED VOICING you tongued my battleship! you bonged my tattle-tale you maimed my mamby-pamby Wagnered my Nietzsche and gotcha'd my sweatshop there ain't room in heaven for us you stapled my skeptic my uptick went septic you bled on my chopsticks cropped all my flowers and bred them for outtakes there ain't room in heaven for us poll tested my pontiff fed chess to my mastiff smashed half my glass ceilings you felted our failings racked, broke and called solids there ain't room in heaven for us if Astors passed AFSCME through ashcan-clad plastics you'd prob'ly statistic my dipstick with arsenic as I blabbed a Catholic as I fact checked a frat kid passed out past his GMAT prepped, tucked and dogmatic there ain't room in heaven for us what buckled the vulgate is good for the frigate that buffered the big one pigged out at the picnic there ain't room in heaven for fuck 'em with upshot and there ain't room in heaven for us a Texas-sized peach fuzz is hell on the ground blood a star-struck fetishist honks for burnt curtains but you rented my benchmark you birthmarked my precedent pressed bets, rolled sevens packed cherubs for action you prayed on my carpet you bombed my parade and there ain't room in heaven no there ain't room in heaven no there ain't room in heaven for us From wasanthony Fri May 4 10:18:18 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 07:18:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Hecht in advance In-Reply-To: <21.b29a6ba.2824011a@aol.com> Message-ID: <20010504141818.42082.qmail@web12103.mail.yahoo.com> Lot's Wife How simple the pleasures of those childhood days, simple but filled with exquisite satisfactions. The iridescent labyrinth of the spider, its tethered tensor nest of polygons puffed by the breeze to a little bellying sail-- merely observing this gave infinite pleasure. The sound of rain. The gentle graphite veil of rain that makes of the world a steel engraving, full of soft fadings and faint distances. The self-congratulations of a fly, rubbing its hands. The brown bicameral brain of a walnut. The smell of wax. The feel of sugar to the tongue: a delicious sand. One understands immediately how Proust might cherish all such postage-stamp details. Who can resist the charms of retrospection? Seems tired to me, and of little consequence. Is there something energetic and at least new in some way in that collection? - Jim --- JforJames at aol.com wrote: > Date: 5/3/01 11:02:33 AM Eastern Daylight Time > From: webmaster at randomhouse.com > Reply-to: knopfwebmaster at randomhouse.com > To: JforJames at aol.com > > A poem by Anthony Hecht from the upcoming collection THE DARKNESS AND > THE > LIGHT (June 12): > > > Lot???s Wife > > How simple the pleasures of those childhood days, > Simple but filled with exquisite satisfactions. > The iridescent labyrinth of the spider, > Its tethered tensor nest of polygons > Puffed by the breeze to a little bellying sail-- > Merely observing this gave infinite pleasure. > The sound of rain. The gentle graphite veil > Of rain that makes of the world a steel engraving, > Full of soft fadings and faint distances. > The self-congratulations of a fly, > Rubbing its hands. The brown bicameral brain > Of a walnut. The smell of wax. The feel > Of sugar to the tongue: a delicious sand. > One understands immediately how Proust > Might cherish all such postage-stamp details. > Who can resist the charms of retrospection? > > Copyright (c) 2001 by Anthony Hecht > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From grahamd Fri May 4 10:46:31 2001 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 09:46:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Dunning langpo In-Reply-To: <200105041308.JAA12574@dept.english.upenn.edu> References: <3AF1AACD.4C8EAB1A@columbia.edu> from "Jeffrey Jullich" at May 3, 2001 03:00:30 pm Message-ID: I want to thank Mike Magee for posting this, and more broadly for trying to engage in discussion across aesthetic battle lines in productive ways. For various real-life reasons I'm afraid I need to beg off any more considered reflection on matters of rhyme and convention for the time being, but I wanted to applaud his efforts publicly. Mike also provided a fascinating discussion a little while back when he posted Ben Friedlander's remarks attacking his own opinions on Sylvia Plath/pedagogy, etc. I think that may be a first: never seen anyone initiate a discussion by attacking *himself* in this way before! I've wished I had more time to participate myself. Alerted by Mike that there was (surprise! surprise!) some Stephen Dunn-bashing going on at the Poetics list, I cruised their archives (http://listserv.acsu.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A1=ind0105&L=poetics ) and reminded myself quickly why I am no longer subscribed there. Amidst some valid complaints that Dunn misunderstands and condescends to Language Poetry, and is smug about it to boot, I found little but condescension and misunderstanding--smug would be too kind a word for most of it-- aimed in the other direction. In particular, I think the take on "new formalism" routinely found in those precincts is every bit as grotesquely oversimplified as any mainstreamer's attitude toward langpo. But that's another list. For now, I just wanted to thank Mike for providing such a shining counter-example to such stuff. To my mind, a chief value of this list is that it has the potential, anyway, to avoid descending into mere boosterism for one camp or another. David Graham ---------------------------------------- >Hi all you Buffalos and new-poetry listees (to whom this is cross-posted) >I wanted to say something about Jeffrey Jullich's last post to the Buffalo >List, part of the "Dunn gets Pulitzer" thread which has evolved into >something different, specifically this idea: > >The shell of the ("traditional") prosodic structure may be inherently >neutral and, as an empty vessel, equally --- if not more --- malleable >to an asyntactical "content." > >And richard's response: > >"Jeffrey. The New Formalists writing in metre and rhyme are a pathetic >lot. >Who wants to be bound by a lot of quite arbitrary rules?" > >I'm not particularly sympathetic to New Formalism (surprised?) but I have >become interested lately in rhyme. Below is an excerpt from a >conversation I published between my brother (painter living in Brooklyn) >and I for the new "Poets & Painters" series at the Writers House in >Philly. We were talking about appropriating elements of traditional form >(say, very photorealistic figure drawing, or descriptive writing which was >unironized on the local level - - tho ironized by whatever it abridged >perhaps) and I brought up the issue of rhyme. With apologies for any >formatting problems (I've pasted this in and you know how that can be) >here's what I said: > > >[MIKE: Another way to consider this - - which involves not employing the >styles of one's hip immediate predecessors but older more outmoded forms >which the hip immediate predecessors deemed off limits - - is with Rhyme. >As I mentioned the Language Poets (hip immediate predecessors who I've >learned a lot from) were pretty antagonistic towards rhyme, with good >reason: for one thing there was that sense, amazingly still around in the >mainstream / big press world of poetry that rhyme was, if not always >desirable, than at least difficult to do and thus a measure of Talent. >For another, there was/is a sense that using sound to develop a rich >texture had a philosophical/theological point behind it: that rhymes were >a matter of Natural Convergences. So, using rhyme, you were either the >Great Artificer or the Transcendental Sound Conveyor, and either way you >were screwed ("no intuitive well of sonic richness," Bob Perelman >insisted). A third option was/is doggerel: which has a long interesting >history but it's tough avoiding "There once was a man from Nantucket?" and >I think with doggerel you fall into the same problems we discussed >regarding parody. So. So I think some younger poets are finding >interesting, experimental ways to use rhyme, partly thanks to hip-hop, >partly perhaps thanks to the various language theories focussed in on the >materiality of the work. Part of the pain-in-the-ass that was Rhymed >Poetry involved it's marriage to Narrative Poetry: so that the real sign >of excellence involved keeping your rhymes invisible, out of the way of >your story but nonetheless heard as sweet music. But what if rhyme >actually drives what's being said: > >I walked in the forest like an elephant >Everything I saw seemed irrelevant > >I walked through the forest like a donkey >Everything I saw seemed on key > >I flew over the river Volga >Around it milled a people vulgar > >That's from Eugene Ostashevsky's "I Locked the House of Myself" which is >in Combo 7. The joke about rhyme directing narrative ("Everything I saw >seemed on key") is played out in the next couplet where the people are >vulgar not because they are vulgar (and here the poem takes on political >overtones for me) but because of the need for an approximate sound. As I >said, hip-hop often has this emphasis on the materiality of rhyme >(jump-rope rhymes do to) and that first couplet reminds me of these ones >>from Busta Rhymes, "I roam through the forest / just like a Brontosaurus / >Born in the month of may so my sign is Taurus / I kick you in the face >like my fuckin' name was Chuck Norris." (I suppose there's a narrative >coherence in the idea of masculine toughness but it's really about the >search for a rhyme -- the giveaway is in the need to keep extending the >meter.) > >[severely snipp'd] __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From paul.lake Fri May 4 00:46:34 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 23:46:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dunning Lango Message-ID: Michael, the following poem by Stevens fits into your thesis about sound and artifice in interesting ways. Paul Lake Bantams in a Pine Woods Chieftain Iffucan of Azcan in caftan Of tan with henna hackles, halt! Damned universal cock, as if the sun Was blackamoor to bear your blazing tail. Fat! Fat! Fat! Fat! I am the personal. Your world is you. I am my world. You ten-foot poet among inchlings. Fat! Begone! An inchling bristles in these pines, Bristles, and points their Appalachian tangs, And fears not portly Azcan nor his hoos. From mmagee Fri May 4 12:11:04 2001 From: mmagee (Michael Magee) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 12:11:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dunning Lango In-Reply-To: from "Paul Lake" at May 3, 2001 11:46:34 pm Message-ID: <200105041611.MAA18709@dept.english.upenn.edu> Paul, yes it sure does, including that little my brother mentioned about minstrelsy. Bob Perelman once said to me (& others) "Stevens is a soundaholic." It's an intriguing aspect of his work - those moments when the sound machine lifts off the narrative soil. -m. According to Paul Lake: > > Michael, the following poem by Stevens fits into your thesis about sound and > artifice in interesting ways. > > Paul Lake > > > Bantams in a Pine Woods > > Chieftain Iffucan of Azcan in caftan > Of tan with henna hackles, halt! > > Damned universal cock, as if the sun > Was blackamoor to bear your blazing tail. > > Fat! Fat! Fat! Fat! I am the personal. > Your world is you. I am my world. > > You ten-foot poet among inchlings. Fat! > Begone! An inchling bristles in these pines, > > Bristles, and points their Appalachian tangs, > And fears not portly Azcan nor his hoos. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From JoFuhrman Fri May 4 12:12:00 2001 From: JoFuhrman (Joanna Fuhrman) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 09:12:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Hecht in advance Message-ID: <33488419.988992720868.JavaMail.imail@neon.excite.com> > Seems tired to me, and of little consequence. Is there something > energetic and at least new in some way in that collection? > > - Jim >Jim, I agree that the poem as a whole is pretty tired. The end is really terrible-- it's like Proust for Dummies. But what's weird is I think something kind of interesting IS happening in the middle of the poem. > > >The gentle graphite veil > > Of rain that makes of the world a steel engraving, > > Full of soft fadings and faint distances. > > The self-congratulations of a fly, > > Rubbing its hands. The brown bicameral brain > > Of a walnut. I kind of like the way these images conflate the self-conscious act of writing with the act of seeing. (the rain is pencil led, the fly is a sort of egotistic poet, the nut's a brain) There's also an interesting relationship between the sounds and the meanings. These sorts of images while they on the surface might look like description are really different than the later images. The smell of wax. The feel > > Of sugar to the tongue: a delicious sand. > > The later images are just objects without an interesting cognitive component. One could argue that these images are metaphoric of "things passing" but I just think that idea is old and dull and obvious.It closes things off instead of opening them up. I mean I just think its sad because Hecht is clearly capable of writing a more interesting poem-- Because of poems like this people sometimes think that all poems that look like "description" of the natural world objectify it or commodify it, which clearly isn't the case. Can't a powerful image disrupt old habits of thinking as much as the play/shift of syntax that Mike seems to advocate. -Joanna _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ From eselinge Fri May 4 12:44:57 2001 From: eselinge (Eric Selinger) Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 11:44:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Langpo, Rhyme, Etc. Message-ID: Reading the post on Lang-po and rhyme, I chuckled to see this original posting: "Jeffrey. The New Formalists writing in metre and rhyme are a pathetic lot. Who wants to be bound by a lot of quite arbitrary rules?" To which the obvious answer is: "Well, they want to. I sometimes want to, as when I set a formal table for a dinner party. Anyone who plays a card game or a sport must want to, on some level, otherwise we'd all golf like my 2 year old daughter, walking up to the hole and dropping the ball in and wondering what all the fuss is about. Browsing the personal ads in my local weekly paper there seem to be a lot of folks who enjoy being bound by a lot of quite arbitrary rules (not to mention leather underwear, ball-gags, etc.) Choosing to be bound by some set of arbitrary rules can be, in fact, one of the great pleasures of adult life--especially when you let yourself then break them, once in a while." Goodness! Is that the best objection Jeffery's interlocutor could come up with? EMS From moira_russell Fri May 4 13:17:55 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 09:17:55 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Langpo, Rhyme, Etc. Message-ID: Jeffrey posts: "The New Formalists writing in metre and rhyme are a pathetic lot. Who wants to be bound by a lot of quite arbitrary rules?" Eric ripostes: "Browsing the personal ads in my local weekly paper there seem to be a lot of folks who enjoy being bound by a lot of quite arbitrary rules (not to mention leather underwear, ball-gags, etc.) Choosing to be bound by some set of arbitrary rules can be, in fact, one of the great pleasures of adult life--especially when you let yourself then break them, once in a while." This reminds me of A.E. Stallings' great phrase "the playful, silk-ribbon bondage of the sonnet." She wrote an interesting essay on formal verse which appeared in the "Alsop Review" and is available at http://www.alsopreview.com/aside/stallings/aesthoughts.html (I think it's also at her website). Below are some excerpts. Moira Russell Seattle, WA *** "I am not against free verse. Indeed, I admire those who can do it well; I cannot. For me, however, to rule out meter or rhyme as tools available to the poet is far more limiting than the playful, silk-ribbon bondage of the sonnet. Free verse, at least in its contemporary guise, has only three major tools at its disposal (though many do wonders with them): the line break, the image (metaphor or simile), and, possibly, diction. Many free-verse poets dispense even with the last, by adopting a severe form of the ?plain style.? The plain style reminds me a bit of newspaper ads, when I was in Atlanta, offering classes to ?lose your accent.? Such a curious thing, to lose an accent! Because, of course, one doesn?t lose an accent, one just trades it for another (mid-western, middle-American--which, of course, to a Brit or an Australian, is still an accent.) Not many years ago, a certain poet, a practitioner of the plain style, wrote a book detailing his ordeal with a plagiarist, who was copying his poems, with only a few modest changes, and passing them off as his own. I am sure this was traumatic, and I am appalled that it happened, but some mischievous part of me did wonder, if he were not a free-verse poet writing in the plainest of plain styles, how easy would he have been to plagiarize? "Of course, despite some noises from the neo-formalist camp, formal verse does not possess any innate superiority either; it is only a tool. Pound put forth the common-sense caveat that poetry should be at least as well written as prose. I would add to that, that formal verse should be at least as well written as free verse. In other words, there is no more excuse for sloppy imagery, diction, fuzzy thinking, or sentimentality in a poem than scans and rhymes than there is for one that does not. (The term ?neo formalism,? by the way, is absurd. There is nothing new about form, nor has it ever ceased from being written, making a break between old and new.) "A lot of misconceptions persist around formal verse, sometimes held not only by those with a bias against it, but by the practitioners themselves. These include, but are not limited to, that formal verse is artificial (and therefore bad; not able to express naturally), regressive, conservative not only aesthetically but politically, socially and academically elitist (and even sexist), and delivers a false sense of closure in an uncertain world." (She goes on to discuss about a number of arguments against formal poetry which have been raised on this list, in fact.) I'm also reminded of one of my favorite quotes about art & artifice: Once out of nature I shall never take My bodily form from any natural thing, But such a form as Grecian goldsmiths make Of hammered gold and gold enamelling To keep a drowsy Emperor awake; Or set upon a golden bough to sing To lords and ladies of Byzantium Of what is past, or passing, or to come. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From alsop Fri May 4 19:34:49 2001 From: alsop (Jaimes Alsop) Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 16:34:49 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Auden References: <42.1439f20c.2822ff4a@aol.com> Message-ID: <3AF33C99.E6408E0B@alsopreview.com> I'd recommend the Selected rather than the Collected Auden. Most poets turn out a fair amount of mediocre poetry in their careers and Auden was no exception. There's lots (and lots!) of the very worst of English, old-school, upper-class twit, look-how-clever-I-am! stuff in the Collected. Very time-consuming, tedious and best avoided. My books are packed for a forthcoming move so I'm not much help with the titles but there are two books of essays by Auden. One's called A Certain World, the other escapes me for the moment. It should be easy to track down, however. In passing, Auden and Larkin were my particular field of study for many years and I'd have to say that everything you'd want to know about either of them can be found in their work. I can't think of another poet I'd say the same for. Jaimes -- Jaimes Alsop The Alsop Review http://www.alsopreview.com From moira_russell Fri May 4 15:53:30 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 11:53:30 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Auden Message-ID: Jaimes Alsop wrote: >there are two books of essays by Auden. One's called A Certain World, the >other escapes me for the moment. "The Dyer's Hand, and Other Essays"? This looks like a nice book of Auden http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0571115020/qid=989005870/sr=1-2/ref=sc_b_3/104-0218872-8280762 Have to admit I am not fond of later Auden, with all of the Capitalized Yet Not Personified Abstractions. I like his love poems. I think there is a special collection of them as well. Agree with you about Auden and Larkin. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From moira_russell Fri May 4 16:14:48 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 12:14:48 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens and Emotion Message-ID: Eric Selinger wrote: >Like Moira, I had trouble connecting with Stevens' work on any emotional >level, heart or gut or giggle, until I read (speaking of the Value of >Criticism), Helen Vendler's little collection of essays on WS, "Words >Chosen Out of Desire," especially the essay "Stevens' Secrecies." Good, now I have a reading list: Vendler Palm at the End of the Mind Harmonium Should be fun. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From CobbCoStudioArts Fri May 4 16:26:14 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 13:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dunning Lango Message-ID: <20010504202614.87BCC274F@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From CobbCoStudioArts Fri May 4 16:39:06 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 13:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dunning Lango Message-ID: <20010504203906.E52E62744@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From alsop Fri May 4 20:45:09 2001 From: alsop (Jaimes Alsop) Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 17:45:09 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Auden References: Message-ID: <3AF34D15.2AECCCE9@alsopreview.com> Moira Russell wrote: > > "The Dyer's Hand, and Other Essays"? > That's the one. Thankyou Moira. Jaimes -- Jaimes Alsop The Alsop Review http://www.alsopreview.com From moira_russell Fri May 4 17:17:55 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 13:17:55 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Auden Message-ID: >Moira Russell wrote: > > > > > "The Dyer's Hand, and Other Essays"? > > > >That's the one. Thankyou Moira. > >Jaimes I agree, it's very very good. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From wasanthony Fri May 4 17:18:05 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 14:18:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Hecht in advance In-Reply-To: <33488419.988992720868.JavaMail.imail@neon.excite.com> Message-ID: <20010504211805.71119.qmail@web12104.mail.yahoo.com> --- Joanna Fuhrman wrote: > > > Seems tired to me, and of little consequence. Is there something > > energetic and at least new in some way in that collection? > > > > - Jim > > >Jim, > > I agree that the poem as a whole is pretty tired. The end is really > terrible-- it's like Proust for Dummies. But what's weird is I think > something kind of interesting IS happening in the middle of the poem. > > > > > >The gentle graphite veil > > > Of rain that makes of the world a steel engraving, > > > Full of soft fadings and faint distances. > > > The self-congratulations of a fly, > > > Rubbing its hands. The brown bicameral brain > > > Of a walnut. > > I kind of like the way these images conflate the self-conscious act > of > writing with the act of seeing. (the rain is pencil led, the fly is a > sort > of egotistic poet, the nut's a brain) There's also an interesting > relationship between the sounds and the meanings. > > These sorts of images while they on the surface might look like > description > are really different than the later images. > Joanna: I agree with you there. And, you know what, your paraphrase I like more than the original: The rain is pencil lead, the fly an egotistical poet, the nut's a brain . . . Remiscent of Lowell, huh? - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From halvard Fri May 4 23:27:22 2001 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 23:27:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Ted Wilentz Message-ID: Ron Silliman posted the following article to another list just recently. I met Ted Wilentz some years ago at a poetry do in Washington, DC, where he and, I believe, his wife were living in retirement in one of the Maryland suburbs. The 8th Street Bookstore many of you in or of the NYC area will remember, I'm sure. Hal ******************************************************** From nwilliams Fri May 4 12:59:09 2001 From: nwilliams (Norman Williams) Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 12:59:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Langpo, Rhyme, Etc. Message-ID: Confidential to Jeffrey et al: The rules aren't arbitrary. From CobbCoStudioArts Sat May 5 13:36:57 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 10:36:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Wired Art from Wired Hearts/TOOT Message-ID: <20010505173657.72E8B2747@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From rloden Sun May 6 19:54:48 2001 From: rloden (Rachel Loden) Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 16:54:48 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Larkin's daffodils References: Message-ID: <3AF5E448.C7ED49C1@concentric.net> Moira Russell wrote: > Gee, this > couldn't possibly be because Larkin had a fairly nasty, glum, grim view of > life, could it? (He was the one who said depression was for him what > daffodils were for Wordsworth.) Actually, he said deprivation (rather than depression) was for him what daffodils were for Wordsworth. It seems an important distinction. Rachel -- Rachel Loden http://www.thepomegranate.com/loden/hotel.html email: rloden at concentric.net From wasanthony Sun May 6 21:16:57 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Sun, 6 May 2001 18:16:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Wired Art from Wired Hearts/TOOT In-Reply-To: <20010505173657.72E8B2747@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <20010507011657.78044.qmail@web12103.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Robert R.Cobb" wrote: > May ~ June 2001 issue of Wired Art from Wired Hearts is on line. May > I > present ~~ > > ******************** > ART > ******************** > > This painting by Linda Cornelius is the official image for the 2001 > African > Movie Festival. I can see why. I love that little guy! > http://wiredheart.hispeed.com/may01/linda_cornelius_1.html > > Alsocatch her mythical birds & fantastic art work > http://wiredheart.hispeed.com/may01/linda_cornelius_2.html Found those a bit . . . what? . . . Sweet? > > Fusionist and hologram artist, Ronald Warunek. Interesting indeed. > http://wiredheart.hispeed.com/may01/ronald_warunek_1.html Now this I liked! Next step for the web is the capability of reproducing holograms on/beyond our screens. > > Andrew Hersey paints his travel goddesses. Hey, they actually talk. > No > lie. Maybe they are real. > http://wiredheart.hispeed.com/may01/andrew_hersey_1.html He's living a fantasy on the web. But who isn't, to some degree. > > He also takes us on a strange tour in > http://wiredheart.hispeed.com/may01/andrew_hersey_2.html > Redundancy. Thanks for these. It's good to explore other means of expresssion. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From alsop Mon May 7 01:19:04 2001 From: alsop (Jaimes Alsop) Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 22:19:04 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Larkin's daffodils References: <3AF5E448.C7ED49C1@concentric.net> Message-ID: <3AF63048.D6DF4B54@alsopreview.com> > > Gee, this > > couldn't possibly be because Larkin had a fairly nasty, glum, grim view of > > life, could it? (He was the one who said depression was for him what > > daffodils were for Wordsworth.) Hmmm. Well, I obviously missed part of the conversation here. I've never thought of Larkin as being 'nasty' or 'glum' or 'grim'. A sweet melancholy would be a more accurate description, I feel. His humour, always self-deprecating, is what transfigures his work. Auden once defined compassion as "love with understanding" and that rather describes Larkin's outlook too. He wasn't fooled by the world, his outlook wasn't optimistic, but that didn't prevent him from loving it nonetheless. Even what could be described as his darkest works have a wry smile to them, a twinkle in the eye. Nasty? Grim? I think not. -- Jaimes Alsop The Alsop Review http://www.alsopreview.com From moira_russell Mon May 7 00:43:40 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 20:43:40 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Larkin's daffodils Message-ID: Jaimes, I'd be interested in hearing which poems of Larkin's you think have the characteristics of "sweet melancholy" in them. The poet to my mind who exemplifies sweet melancholy is Housman. I've never found Larkin anything but bitter. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From moira_russell Mon May 7 00:54:08 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 20:54:08 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Aubade by Philip Larkin Message-ID: Aubade Philip Larkin I work all day, and get half drunk at night. Waking at four to soundless dark, I stare. In time the curtain edges will grow light. Till then I see what's really always there: Unresting death, a whole day nearer now, Making all thought impossible but how And where and when I shall myself die. Arid interrogation: yet the dread Of dying, and being dead, Flashes afresh to hold and horrify. - The good not used, the love not given, time Torn off unused - nor wretchedly because An only life can take so long to climb Clear of its wrong beginnings, and may never: But at the total emptiness forever, The sure extinction that we travel to And shall be lost in always. Not to be here, Not to be anywhere, And soon; nothing more terrible, nothing more true. This is a special way of being afraid No trick dispels. Religion used to try, That vast moth-eaten musical brocade Created to pretend we never die, And specious stuff that says no rational being Can fear a thing it cannot feel, not seeingthat this is what we fear - no sight, no sound, No touch or taste or smell, nothing to think with, Nothing to love or link with, The anaesthetic from which none come round. And so it stays just on the edge of vision, A small unfocused blur, a standing chill That slows each impulse down to indecision Most things may never happen: this one will, And realisation of it rages out People or drink. Courage is no good: It means not scaring others. Being brave Lets no-one off the grave. Death is no different whined at than withstood. Slowly light strengthens, and the room takes shape. It stands plain as a wardrobe, what we know, Have always known, know that we can't escape Yet can't accept. One side will have to go. Meanwhile telephones crouch, getting ready to ring In locked-up offices, and all the uncaring Intricate rented world begins to rouse. The sky is white as clay, with no sun. Work has to be done. Postmen like doctors go from house to house. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From alsop Mon May 7 06:15:24 2001 From: alsop (Jaimes Alsop) Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 03:15:24 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Larkin's daffodils References: Message-ID: <3AF675BC.23A7507@alsopreview.com> > I'd be interested in hearing which poems of Larkin's you think have the > characteristics of "sweet melancholy" in them. The poet to my mind who > exemplifies sweet melancholy is Housman. I've never found Larkin anything > but bitter. 'Aubade' is often trotted out as typical of Larkin's bitterness in much the same way 'This Be The Verse' is trotted out as typical of his hilarious sense of humour. Neither is in fact true since they are the exceptions rather than the rule. My books are packed for the move but off the top of my head I'd say 'I remember, I remember', The Whitsun Weddings' and the long, unfinished poem in the Collected are closer to his mark. Larkin is also, I suspect, largely misunderstood outside of England in much the same way Prevert is (or was, anyway) misunderstood outside of France. Misunderstood may be the wrong word. Misread might be a better one. The Bleaney poem, the 'old toad' poems, the Church-going poem, will all bring a wry smile when read in England. We remember those post-war days, those cities, all too well. It's part of growing up there. Larkin was the most famous, the best-selling poet in England for donkey's years and it wasn't because he was bitter or grim. It was because he was topical. To read Larkin today is to read a dated book. His points of reference aren't there any more. The drab streets, the dreary furnished rooms, were once all too real, for all of us, not just Larkin. He understood it, understood how we all felt and made us smile at ourselves about it, too. We love what we do best, what we understand, I suppose. He loved it so much he never left it. He turned down countless lucrative offers to tour and read. He moved from furnished room to furnished room most of his life. Furnished, dreary perhaps, but also close by the corner pub he could amble over to. Another English thing. Even when England was recovering from the war and rebuilding itself, spiritually and economically, he stayed closest to what he knew, moving to Hull (one of the last cities in England to recover from the war - if it has yet) working as a librarian, probably one of the dullest, boring beaurocratic jobs at the time. (While at Hull, incidentally, he revised the library filing system to such an extent his innovations were eventually adopted by the entire library system of England, later by France and even later by the USA. Hardly the product of a bitter, disillusioned man) He was painfully shy, embarrassed even ( regarding his status as poet, at least) but managed to make -and keep- firm friendships among the literati of London. For all the furnished rooms there were sufficient side trips to dinners and plays to satisfy almost anyone. Me, certainly. He died in the company of his friends, with a very healthy bank account (he didn't *need* the librarian's paycheck) and at peace with the world. I'd wish as much for myself. Or you. Give him another go. Read him seriously, but ever-so-slightly tongue-in-cheek. He's much better than 'bitter'. Much, much better. -- Jaimes Alsop The Alsop Review http://www.alsopreview.com From mbales Mon May 7 08:14:47 2001 From: mbales (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 08:14:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] At Grass - Larkin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At Grass Philip Larkin The eye can hardly pick them out From the cold shade they shelter in, Till wind distresses tail and mane; Then one crops grass, and moves about -- The other seeming to look on -- And stands anonymous again. Yet fifteen years ago, perhaps Two dozen distances sufficed To fable them: faint afternoons Of Cups and Stakes and Handicaps, Whereby their names were artificed To inlay faded, classic Junes -- Silks at the start: against the sky Numbers and parasols: outside Squadrons of empty cars, and heat, And littered grass: then the long cry Hanging unhushed till it subside To stop-press columns on the street. Do memories plague their ears like flies? They shake their heads. Dusk brims the shadows. Summer by summer all stole away, The starting-gates, the crowds and cries -- All but the unmolesting meadows. Almanacked, their names live; they Have slipped their names, and stand at ease, Or gallop for what must be joy, And not a fieldglass sees them home, Or curious stop-watch prophesies: Only the groom, and the groom's boy, With bridles in the evening come. mbales at cybergate.net From CobbCoStudioArts Mon May 7 08:23:51 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 05:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Wired Art from Wired Hearts/TOOT Message-ID: <20010507122351.943A4275F@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From halvard Mon May 7 08:57:10 2001 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 08:57:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnet - Mayer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Sonnet My hand is like a muffin just baked in the electrocuting toaster under the light of the smoke detector full of American Americium to create the further tumors that make poets underpaid in life compared to the more dismal occu- pations like vacuum cleaning or storing thoughts in machines or selling objects to people Writing poems is really dumb but fuck it even we want entertainment I saw the art of the city today smokestacks and buildings from the hospital windows where everybody I know is imprisoned and being demeaned on demerol or else everything's o.k. thank god they're all fine having had operations in there you wouldn't want to sleep with me in exchange would you? This is my new form of sonnet This is the closing of it Please don't stop loving me right this moment Or else one of us might kill the other Just like in the papers. --Bernadette Mayer Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From wasanthony Mon May 7 09:12:35 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 06:12:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Wired Art from Wired Hearts/TOOT In-Reply-To: <20010507122351.943A4275F@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <20010507131235.85136.qmail@web12107.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Robert R.Cobb" wrote: > Jim, > > I thank you for your polite review on the "ART." I assume that you > have not had any time to read, review, comment upon, the rest of the > "issue." Either that, or you have read the rest of the issue and > decided it > worthy of ommission. > The former, Bob. It's last week of classes! - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From wasanthony Mon May 7 09:22:25 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 06:22:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Sonnet - Mayer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010507132225.14951.qmail@web12106.mail.yahoo.com> This poem is a shriek of post-modern anxiety it doesn't want to call a computer a computer it might show up and cash in on the offer proving love can engulf like a downdraft of carcinogens or at least lick the hurt hand an old-fashioned stamp with its momentary face maybe even stick its moist tongue like a bagel into slot A or B toaster jazz Moloch without a proper name etc. - Jim --- Halvard Johnson wrote: > Sonnet > > My hand is like a muffin just baked in the electrocuting > toaster under the light of the smoke detector full of > American Americium to create the further tumors that make > poets underpaid in life compared to the more dismal occu- > pations like vacuum cleaning or storing thoughts in machines > or selling objects to people > > Writing poems is really dumb but fuck it even we want > entertainment I saw the art of the city today smokestacks > and buildings from the hospital windows where everybody > I know is imprisoned and being demeaned on demerol or else > everything's o.k. thank god they're all fine having had > operations in there you wouldn't want to sleep with me in > exchange would you? > > This is my new form of sonnet > This is the closing of it > Please don't stop loving me right this moment > Or else one of us might kill the other > Just like in the papers. > > --Bernadette Mayer > > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From tadrichards Mon May 7 09:32:42 2001 From: tadrichards (OTIS RICHARDS) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 09:32:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Larkin's daffodils References: Message-ID: <001701c0d6fa$32200060$6401a8c0@ibm25310> Poetry of Departures certainly has sweet melancholy in it. So, in it's own way, does High Windows. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Moira Russell" To: Sent: Monday, May 07, 2001 12:43 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Larkin's daffodils > Jaimes, > > I'd be interested in hearing which poems of Larkin's you think have the > characteristics of "sweet melancholy" in them. The poet to my mind who > exemplifies sweet melancholy is Housman. I've never found Larkin anything > but bitter. > > Moira Russell > Seattle, WA > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Jandhodge Mon May 7 09:42:12 2001 From: Jandhodge (Jandhodge at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 09:42:12 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Larkin's daffodils Message-ID: <3b.141ffc14.28280034@aol.com> Jaimes Alsop wrote on Larkin: << Give him another go. Read him seriously, but ever-so-slightly tongue-in-cheek. He's much better than 'bitter'. Much, much better. >> Thanks, Jaimes. My overall sense of him has been much closer to what you write, even in "Audabe," which contains one of my favorite metaphors: "Religion . . . / That vast moth-eaten musical brocade / Created to pretend we never die." Seems to me a brilliantly sharp summary of much of the modern British attitude toward religion. Jan From JforJames Mon May 7 10:03:21 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 10:03:21 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Paul's Poems (NYTimes article) Message-ID: Paul McCartney Finds a New Mode for Expressing Love and Loss By SARAH LYALL Some years ago, Paul McCartney, famous musician and fledgling poet, took a deep breath and showed a selection of his poetic works in progress to his old friend Allen Ginsberg. Ginsberg, who was visiting Mr. McCartney at his house in Sussex, England, had some thoughts. "He was all for economy," Sir Paul, as he has been known the last few years, said recently in his friendly Liverpudlian lilt, recalling his frisson of fear when Ginsberg took out his pencil and began cutting and tweaking. "He said to me: `Never use the word "the." And also try to avoid "ing" - don't use "singing," but use "sing" instead.' " When Ginsberg suggested he change a poem beginning "Two doors open on the 18th of June" to "Two doors open. June 18," the lyricist put his foot down. "I said it's great, but you're making me into a New York Beat poet," said Sir Paul, who kept a copy of the scribbled-over "Ginsberg Variations," as he calls them, for posterity, though he took none of Ginsberg's suggestions. Sir Paul is so used to having critical control that he submits to editing only reluctantly. "Sometimes I've made small suggestions for cuts or changes, and sometimes Paul's accepted them," writes his editor in Britain, the poet Adrian Mitchell, in the preface to Sir Paul's first book of poetry, "Blackbird Singing," which has just been published in the United States by W. W. Norton. And so the poems in the book are very much his own, expressing his familiar obsessions with love and loss and life's vicissitudes in language that is generally simple and direct. In the flesh for an interview at his office in New York, he could not help appearing startlingly familiar, as if he were a cousin who just happened to be really famous. While the other surviving Beatles seem to have grown sharper and craggier, Sir Paul, 58, has softened. His face is still boyish and open, albeit creased with minor wrinkles. Discussing his poems while sitting on an immaculate black couch across from a de Kooning painting, he was dressed in a T-shirt, plaid pants and the sort of clogs that a hipster surgeon might wear on hospital rounds. He is a canny manager of his empire and career, whose net worth, according to The Sunday Times of London, stands at more than $1 billion. In 1997 he was knighted by Queen Elizabeth, which made him officially Sir Paul. But it is as strange to think of him that way as it is to think of the rock star Bob Geldof - a knight as well, and far scruffier than the always clean and shiny Paul McCartney - as Sir Bob. One of the striking things about "Blackbird Singing" is the bold inclusion of some 50 of the former Beatle's lyrics among more than 40 poems, a decision that cannot help but raise the old question about whether lyrics stand as poetry in their own right. Sir Paul is not so sure, though he was cheered when Ginsberg told him, long ago, that " `Eleanor Rigby' is one hell of a poem." (Its lyrics appear in the book, along with those of "Hey Jude" and "Maxwell's Silver Hammer," among others.) Though they emanate from the same impulse, poems and songs come to him in very different ways, Sir Paul explained, mostly having to do with whether he has a musical instrument on hand. With songs he generally works through the lyrics and melody simultaneously, he said, illustrating his point by re-enacting on an imaginary piano how he hashed out the beginning of "Eleanor Rigby." "I was sitting at the piano vamping on the E minor chord," he said. He sang some of the notes, then began: "Da da da da da - Eleanor Rigby picks up the rice . . . And in actual fact, it wasn't Eleanor Rigby, it was something else, because I got the name Eleanor Rigby later. Sometimes the real words arrive, and sometimes I have to kind of go back and fix it." "It's like `Yesterday,' " he continued, starting to sing again. "At first it was `Scrambled eggs/ Oh my baby how I love your legs,' which I thought, `That's gotta be fixed. Can't go with that one.' " Similarly, he said, "Hey Jude," written for John Lennon's son Julian when his parents split up, was originally called "Hey Jules" until he decided that Jude was crisper. In poems, he said, the language tends to come and stay put. He wrote "Jerk of All Jerks," for instance, after being immersed, along with the rest of the world, in the news coverage of Lennon's murder in 1980. "The one phrase that came to my mind was that the guy who did it was the jerk of all jerks," Sir Paul said. The only other explicit reference to Lennon in the book comes in the lyrics to "Here Today," from 1982. It is an affectionate song, alluding to his and Lennon's mismatched temperaments and to Lennon's spikiness, but also to their underlying love. The two put aside their differences before Lennon died. "We had been arguing about stupid stuff - money and things, things that weren't really important in our relationship but were the kind of things people argue about," Sir Paul said. But then they began to talk again. "We talked about him baking bread, him putting the cats out, him padding around the apartment in his robe and slippers, him bringing up his baby, Sean," he recalled. "It was really intimate and mature, good real talk between friends." In a way, Lennon's ghost - the ghost of what might have been - haunts the book, as does the spirit of Sir Paul's wife, Linda, who died of breast cancer in 1998 and who inspired some of his sweetest love poems and songs. In 29 years of marriage, Mr. McCartney never spent a night apart from his wife except when he was in a Tokyo jail on drug charges in 1980, and he spent the year after her death in nearly constant grief, he said. He now has a girlfriend, Heather Mills, 33, a feisty former model whose leg was severed in an accident and who campaigns for land mine reform. As he discussed his wife's death and his new life, his volubility fled for a moment, and he jumped up to adjust a chair on the other side of the room that was not sitting perfectly in line with the carpet. "It was perhaps unlikely in my life that I would have two strong women who I felt so strongly about," he said carefully. "Even though it's early days in my new relationship, I do feel lucky to have met someone strong and interesting and beautiful." "Blackbird Singing" has been a best seller in Britain, but the critical reaction been mixed, as always happens when Sir Paul embarks on a new venture. Some critics were delighted: "Unlike more rarefied poets, who communicate mostly with each other in obscure crannies of our culture, McCartney writes as freely (and often as beautifully) as a blackbird sings," Stephen Logan wrote in The Sunday Times of London. But others have made it clear that they think his talents are strictly musical. "They're not bad so much as unfinished and inconsequential," Mark Hertsgaard wrote of the poems in The Los Angeles Times. The new poet tries not to care. "It's not as if I'm not used to it," he said. " `She Loves You' was called banal when it came out - it was the first time I had ever heard the word." And a review in The New York Times, he said, judged "Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band" "a very bad album," in Sir Paul's words. "But," he said, "I just get on with it." And, judging from Mr. McCartney's two poetry readings, one in Liverpool and the other at the 92nd Street Y in Manhattan, he is in no danger of losing his extraordinary appeal. Charming the onlookers out of their seats with engaging anecdotes, he ended both readings with rousing audience-participation recitations of "Why Don't We Do It in the Road?," included partly as a retort to critics who said some of his lyrics would not stand up to the rigors of being read aloud. In Liverpool he kept his cool even amid the most frenzied of fans. Swept up in a crowd of more than 1,000, he was greeted by a teenage girl who wore a vintage Beatlemania button that said "I slept with Paul McCartney." "Oh, really," said Mr. McCartney, flashing a huge grin, "When was that?" From JforJames Mon May 7 16:39:33 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 16:39:33 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Beats Message-ID: <7f.13ef6098.28286205@aol.com> SAN FRANCISCO BEAT: Talking with the Poets Edited by David Meltzer 0-87286-379-4 $19.95 City Lights Bookstore & Publishers 261 Columbus Ave. San Francisco, CA 94133 415-362-8193 mailto:staff at citylights.com http://www.citylights.com San Francisco Beat is an essential rememberance of the Beat Generation, a rich moment in a fortunate place. America, somnolent, conformist, and paranoid in the 1950s, was changed forever by a handful of people who refused an existence of drudgery and enterprise, opting instead for a life of personal, spiritual, and artistic adventure. In these intimate, free-wheeling conversations, a baker's dozen of the poets of San Francisco talk about the scene then and now, the traditions of poetry, and about anarchism, globalism, Zen, the Bomb, the Kabbalah, and the Internet. San Francisco Beat features major recent interviews with Diane di Prima, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, Jack Hirschman, Joanne Kyger, Philip Lamantia, Michael McClure, Jack Micheline, Gary Snyder, and Philip Whalen--as well as with David Meltzer himself. Also included are David Meltzer's historic interviews with his poet friends Kenneth Rexroth, Michael McClure, Lawrence Ferlinghetti, William Everson, and Lew Welch--an archive of the San Francisco Renaissance first published thirty years ago in The San Francisco Poets. Now San Francisco Beat: Talking with the Poets complements these important records of the time with follow-up interviews with the living or with friends of the missing. David Meltzer is the author of many books of poetry, including Tens, The Name, Arrows: Selected Poetry 1957-1992, and No Eyes: Lester Young. He is the editor of Birth: An Anthology of Ancient Texts, Songs, Prayers, and Stories, The Secret Garden: Anthology of the Classical Kabbalah, Reading Jazz, and Writing Jazz, among other collections. His agit-smut fictions include Orf, The Agency Trilogy, and Under. Meltzer read poetry at the Jazz Cellar in the 1950s and in the 1960s fronted the psychedelic band, Serpent Power. He taught writing in Vacaville Prison but these days David Meltzer teaches poetics at New College of California in San Francisco. From JforJames Mon May 7 17:13:29 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 17:13:29 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Child's Gulag of Verse: The Dark Side of Nat'l Poetry Month Message-ID: Monday May 07 07:33 AM EDT Poetry Night flap leaves boy even more averse to verse Father says By Stacy St. Clair Daily Herald Staff Writer A Naperville father saw no rhyme or reason for a principal to force his son to attend a Poetry Night - and he filed a police report to prove it. Glenn Mendoza asked authorities to charge Spring Brook Elementary Principal Carl Pinnow with battery over the incident that occurred on school grounds late last month. The trouble began when Mendoza's 9-year-old son told his parents he did not want to go to Poetry Night, an after-hours program students are not required to attend. His parents sent the boy's teacher a note saying he would not participate in the April 26 event. "It's not his bag," his father said. "We didn't think it would be detrimental to his academic career if he didn't go to Poetry Night." As Poetry Night festivities were beginning, Mendoza's son asked his parents' permission to go to the school playground less than a block away. Twenty minutes later, he returned home crying and shaking. While at the school, the boy told his parents the principal came out and asked him why he was not attending Poetry Night. Mendoza said his son responded he didn't like poetry. Pinnow, apparently unhappy with the response, ushered the boy into the school. Police said both sides agree Pinnow touched the boy while escorting him into the building but differ on the amount of force that was used. The Mendoza family contends Pinnow grabbed his son by the arm and pulled him inside; the principal told authorities he gently guided the boy into school. The principal took the boy to the boiler room to store his bicycle, police said. Once there, Pinnow began questioning the boy about why he wasn't at Poetry Night. When the third-grader said his parents had excused him, Pinnow left the boy alone in the boiler room and went to consult the teacher. Police said both versions of events also differ on whether the principal closed the door while interrogating the boy and checking with the teacher. After the teacher verified the boy's account, Mendoza said Pinnow lectured his son about the importance of poetry. The principal released the boy around 7:20 p.m., according to his father. "He came home crying and shaking," Mendoza said. "The kid was totally distraught." Naperville police still were processing the report Friday. The department will forward it to the Will County state's attorney office if Mendoza demands it, but Capt. Paul Shafer said it was highly unlikely he would recommend charges. "I doubt very much I am going to find criminal intent," Shafer said. Pinnow has the authority to handle matters in his school as long as he does not break any laws. Barring that, any questions about how he handled the situation should be managed by the school district, Shafer said. The school district conducted - and has concluded - its own investigation. Indian Prairie Unit District 204 Superintendent Gail McKinzie said she was not in a position to second-guess Pinnow's handling of the situation. "From my perspective, he was doing what he saw best," she said. Pinnow could not be reached for comment. Though tensions remain between Pinnow and Mendoza, the principal met with the boy to assure him the dispute between the adults would not be held against him. "Our interest is in the student," McKinzie said. "Mr. Pinnow handled the situation appropriately by following up with the student to make sure he was comfortable in school." Meetings with the boys' parents, however, have been less than successful. The two sides have spoken several times without reaching a consensus. Mendoza - who moved to Naperville nine months ago so his children could attend District 204 schools - says he will push for criminal charges because doesn't want Pinnow to treat another student in such a manner. He also intends to ask the school board to discuss the matter with him in a closed-door meeting. "I don't want this guy's head," Mendoza said. "My kids are young, and they will be in the district for a long time. I don't want to be known as that 'Crazy Mendoza dad.' I'm just trying to make sure this doesn't happen again." Regardless of the outcome, Pinnow's attempt to instill a love of poetry in the third-grader appears to have backfired. "If he did that to make poetry important to my son," Mendoza says, "it really wasn't a good motivator." From CobbCoStudioArts Mon May 7 18:25:54 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 15:25:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Wired Art from Wired Hearts/TOOT Message-ID: <20010507222554.C6F163ECC@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From wasanthony Mon May 7 20:03:55 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 17:03:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Wired Art from Wired Hearts/TOOT In-Reply-To: <20010507222554.C6F163ECC@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <20010508000355.36625.qmail@web12107.mail.yahoo.com> I tried sending this backchannel, but it bounced. Oh well: Bob: Thought it best not to use the list for messages like this - I should have responded to you backchannel in the first place. Anyway, this is the last week of classes and next week is finals week. After a couple of relatively paper-free weeks, I'm now inundated. I suspect other folks are suffering the same fate and that's why list traffic has thinned down significantly. Well, I'm off in a bit to teach my last poetry study class of the semester. Tonight I'm doing the 2nd half of my "editorial decisions" class. Last week I shared some poems I'd rejected (anonymous, of course) and this week I'll share some I've accepted, again anonymous, and with rationale of course. - Jim --- "Robert R.Cobb" wrote: > Jim, > > I forget that some people are still working for a living. When does > your school term end? > > Bob Cobb > > --- jcervantes > > wrote: > > > >--- "Robert R.Cobb" wrote: > >> Jim, > >> > >> I thank you for your polite review on the "ART." I assume that you > >> have not had any time to read, review, comment upon, the rest of > the > >> "issue." Either that, or you have read the rest of the issue and > >> decided it > >> worthy of ommission. > >> > > > >The former, Bob. It's last week of classes! > > > >- Jim > > > > > >===== > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net > >Salt River Review: > >"Ripples" @ > >Poetserv: > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices > >http://auctions.yahoo.com/ > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > == > Poetry Catamaran > > "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known > mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" > > Robert R. Cobb > AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. > http://rrcobb.tripod.com > > _____________________________________________________________ > ----- > Check out my portfolio at www.talent.com > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From moira_russell Tue May 8 00:21:12 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 20:21:12 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] At Grass - Larkin Message-ID: That is indeed a very nice sweet melancholy Larkin. I didn't know he could be so gentle (ignorant me). Do you know of any other poems like this? Moira >From: "Marcus Bales" >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu, new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: [New-Poetry] At Grass - Larkin >Date: Mon, 7 May 2001 08:14:47 -0400 > >At Grass >Philip Larkin > > The eye can hardly pick them out > From the cold shade they shelter in, > Till wind distresses tail and mane; > Then one crops grass, and moves about > -- The other seeming to look on -- > And stands anonymous again. > > Yet fifteen years ago, perhaps > Two dozen distances sufficed > To fable them: faint afternoons > Of Cups and Stakes and Handicaps, > Whereby their names were artificed > To inlay faded, classic Junes -- > > Silks at the start: against the sky > Numbers and parasols: outside > Squadrons of empty cars, and heat, > And littered grass: then the long cry > Hanging unhushed till it subside > To stop-press columns on the street. > > Do memories plague their ears like flies? > They shake their heads. Dusk brims the shadows. > Summer by summer all stole away, > The starting-gates, the crowds and cries -- > All but the unmolesting meadows. > Almanacked, their names live; they > > Have slipped their names, and stand at ease, > Or gallop for what must be joy, > And not a fieldglass sees them home, > Or curious stop-watch prophesies: > Only the groom, and the groom's boy, > With bridles in the evening come. > >mbales at cybergate.net > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From mbales Tue May 8 08:06:38 2001 From: mbales (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 08:06:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sad Steps - Larkin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Moira: > That [At Grass] is indeed a very nice sweet melancholy Larkin. > ... Do you know of any other poems like this?<< SAD STEPS Phillip Larkin Groping back to bed after a piss I part the thick curtains, and am startled by The rapid clouds, the moon's cleanliness. Four o'clock: wedge-shaped gardens lie Under a cavernous, a wind-pierced sky. There's something laughable about this, The way the moon dashes through the clouds that blow Loosely as cannon-smoke to stand apart (Stone-coloured light sharpening the roofs below) High and preposterous and separate? Lozenge of love! Medallion of art! O wolves of memory! Immensements! No, One shivers slightly, looking up there. The hardness and the brightness and the plain far-reaching singleness of that wide stare Is a reminder of the strength and pain Of being young; that it can't come again, But is for others undiminished somewhere. mbales at cybergate.net From mbales Tue May 8 08:10:24 2001 From: mbales (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 08:10:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Church Going - Larkin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Moira: > That [At Grass] is indeed a very nice sweet melancholy Larkin. > ... Do you know of any other poems like this?<< Church Going Phillip Larkin Once I am sure there's nothing going on I step inside, letting the door thud shut. Another church: matting, seats, and stone, And little books; sprawlings of flowers, cut For Sunday, brownish now; some brass and stuff Up at the holy end; the small neat organ; And a tense, musty, unignorable silence, Brewed God knows how long. Hatless, I take off My cycle-clips in awkward reverence, Move forward, run my hand around the font. From JforJames Tue May 8 12:16:23 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 12:16:23 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] 100 Days Message-ID: <86.a516d32.282975d7@aol.com> >From Andrea Brady: > >Barque Press, a small publisher of experimental poetry run by me and Keston >Sutherland, has just gone out on a crippled monetary limb to publish: > > ONE HUNDRED DAYS > >An anthology responding to the first 100 baleful days of the Bush >administration. Poetry, prose, articles, cartoons, photographs, drawings, all manner of rants to cancel the raves: a catalogue of capable dissent and >critical eloquence, ordering change by line and number. > > 184 pages * 148 x 210 mm * ISBN 1-903488-31-1 > =A310 / $15 > >TO ORDER: please send a cheque for =A310 (=A35 for contributors) > made payable to BARQUE PRESS > to: Andrea Brady, Gonville & Caius College, Cambridge CB2 1TA > Contributors include: Adrian Clarke, Alan Gilbert, Alan Sondheim, Alex Stolis, Alice Notley, Alicia Askenase, Alison Fenton, Allison Cobb, Alvin Reiss, Andrea Brady, Andrew Duncan, Andrew Johnson, Ange Mlinko, Anne Waldman, Anselm Berrigan, Anselm Hollo, Athena Kildegaard , Ben Friedlander, Ben Watson, Bill Dunlap, Bill Luoma, Brian Henry, Catherine Daly, Chris Goode, Chris Stroffolino, Dan Bouchard, Daniel Arcana, Daniel Bouchard, David Hess, Deirdre Kovac, Drew Gardner, Drew Milne, Eileen Myles, Elizabeth Robinson, Elizabeth Willis, Elizabeth Rosenberg, Elizabeth Treadwell, Fay Gordon, Frank Matagrano, Gwen Stone, Harriet Zinnes, Harv Teitelbaum, Hassen, Heather Shaw, James Thraves Jeremy Green, John A. Jackson, John Kinsella, John Tranter, John Wilkinson, Jordan Davis, Jules Boykoff, Juliana Spahr, Kaia Sand, Keith Tuma, Keston Sutherland, Kristin Prevallet, Laura Wright, Lauren Oliver, Lawrence Upton, Lynn Bey, Margo Solod, Marcella Durand, Michael C. Colello, Michael Scharf, Mukoma Ngugi, Patrick Herron, Pete Culley, Pete Smith, Peter Riley, Philippe Beck, Phyllis Moore, Pierre Michel, Raegan Kelly, Richard j. O'Connor, Robert Edwards, Robert Lederman, Rod Smith, Rose Drew, Rosemary Zurlo-Cuva, Sam Brenton, Sean Bonney, Stephen Ratcliffe, Stephen Rodefer, Tanya Brolaski, the PIPA (Poetry Is Public Art) Collaborative, Tim Morris, Timothy Liu, Tom Raworth, and William Fuller. >Web record soon to be found at http://www.barquepress.com. > >Please forward this announcement... From Rsgwynn1 Tue May 8 13:35:55 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 13:35:55 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Festival Message-ID: <24.1329bfe1.2829887b@cs.com> An article on the Santa Barbara Poetry Festival: http://www.independent.com/arts/feature_0754.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jholmes Tue May 8 13:42:52 2001 From: jholmes (Janet Holmes) Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 11:42:52 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Larkin Message-ID: Moira, you might also appreciate reading the Larkin collections individually rather than jumping into the Collected Poems. HIGH WINDOWS, for example, is meticulously ordered with correspondences among the poems, whereas Thwaite in the Collected completely undid the ordering so as to provide a chronological accounting of what was written when. Janet Holmes From halvard Tue May 8 14:16:42 2001 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 14:16:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Larkin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Moira, you might also appreciate reading the Larkin collections individually rather than jumping into the Collected > Poems. HIGH WINDOWS, for example, is meticulously ordered with correspondences among the poems, whereas Thwaite in the > Collected completely undid the ordering so as to provide a chronological accounting of what was written when. > > Janet Holmes As though poems are writ chronologically--this one today, that one tomorrow. Hal "Poetry is harder to read than prose because you have to read all the white stuff too." Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From wasanthony Tue May 8 14:35:29 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 11:35:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Larkin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010508183529.2318.qmail@web12105.mail.yahoo.com> --- Halvard Johnson wrote: > > Moira, you might also appreciate reading the Larkin collections > individually rather than jumping into the Collected > > Poems. HIGH WINDOWS, for example, is meticulously ordered with > correspondences among the poems, whereas Thwaite in the > > Collected completely undid the ordering so as to provide a > chronological accounting of what was written when. > > > > Janet Holmes > > As though poems are writ chronologically--this one today, > that one tomorrow. > Right. You can write an ending today and a beginning tomorrow, and maybe never even get to the middle. I'm trying to get the hang of yesterday, then the day before that. Have to go. They're coming for me. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From Rsgwynn1 Tue May 8 14:37:18 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 14:37:18 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Larkin Message-ID: <9c.e2ad275.282996de@cs.com> In a message dated 5/8/01 12:48:57 PM Central Daylight Time, jholmes at boisestate.edu writes: > HIGH WINDOWS, for example, is meticulously ordered with correspondences > among the poems, whereas Thwaite in the Collected completely undid the > ordering so as to provide a chronological accounting of what was written > when. > > This did quite a disservice to Larkin, by the way. Didn't Thwaite know that a librarian would want his poems presented in such and such an order? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames Tue May 8 16:45:03 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 16:45:03 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] The Trouble With Poets Message-ID: <44.da67f03.2829b4cf@aol.com> Folk artist Peter Mulvey's album... http://www.signature-sounds.com/artistpage/artistpage.php3?artist=petermulvey THE TROUBLE WITH POETS was produced by Peter's long-time multi-talented sideman David "Goody" Goodrich and features a stellar cast of musicians including Mike Piehl on drums and Lou Ulrich on bass (both of Groovasaurus), as well as backing vocals by Jennifer Kimball (of The Story) and legendary guitarist/singer/songwriter Chris Smither. Melting together the best aspects of his three previous albums (the acoustic funk of Rapture, the dark, brooding richness of Deep Blue, and the tight, melodic edginess of Glencree), POETS is an unbelievably diverse, yet cohesive, album. It swings effortlessly from the catchy, funky, radio-friendly title track, to the mollifying, partially spoken-word ballad "Tender Blindspot"; from the dark, mysterious "Bright Idea" (or, as Peter calls it, his "Paranoid X-Files Song") to the fun, mandolin-accompanied "You Meet the Nicest People in Your Dreams" (an old Fats Waller tune that Peter slid in as the "Intermission" on the album). The Trouble with Poets is an exhilarating roller coaster ride, with crests and dips, twists and turns, and a seemingly endless supply of delightful surprises. With this album, there is simply no doubt about it - Peter Mulvey is on the brink of becoming a not-so-well-kept secret. THE TROUBLE WITH POETS is an album guaranteed to turn heads, drop jaws, and bring Peter's music to an exponentially wider audience. From moira_russell Tue May 8 00:19:41 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 20:19:41 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Larkin's daffodils Message-ID: Dear Jaimes, All right, I'll admit it, I'm intrigued. Perhaps there is more to Larkin than meets my eye (there's more to _everyone_ than meets the eye, once said a friend of mine in a kind of good-humored exasperation). Thank you for your long description, and I sympathize with your difficulty to reference because most of my books are locked up in boxes, too -- in a garage, no less. I liked very much your description of how the drab meagre furnished rooms were once a part of all British consciousness and Larkin made them even moreso. (Did you spend time in Britain? I wonder about Britain and deprivation. Brian Aldiss remarked once on the "uniquely British" quality of "1984" and how the shortages, the worry, the posters even, were recognizable near-instantly to those who had lived in Britain during the War. It also reminded me of some of A. Alvarez's writing about post-war London.) So I shall give him another go. Your mention of his library cataloguing interests me (having worked in libraries myself) -- makes me think, yes, perhaps there _is_ something I hadn't seen, something I would welcome. Which is always good to see. I might not get to it very soon, though, as I am chewing not only through the massive Merrill volume but also the new edition of "Anatomy of Melancholy" ($20! Amazon.com! Order it now!) and I just snatched up not only "On Lies, Secrets and Silence" but also "The Catbird's Song" pretty near each other in my local Value Village, both for two dollars apiece. Who would donate an unmarked volume of a poet's nonfiction to Value Village? Any ideas? And thank you for taking out the time to write a detailed appreciation of a poet you value whom you felt was getting short shrift. No doubt the list could do with more well-considered "take another look" appeals rather than the endless sniping which is far too easy to do and hurtful in the long run. Yours Moira _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From moira_russell Tue May 8 23:13:47 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Tue, 08 May 2001 19:13:47 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Scotch Tape Message-ID: An Englishman is being shown around a Scottish hospital. At the end of his visit, he is shown into a ward with a number of patients who show no obvious signs of injury.?He goes to examine the first man he sees, and the man proclaims: "Fair fa' yer sonsie face, Great chieftain e' the puddin' race! Aboon them a' ye tak your place, painch tripe or thairm: Weel are ye wordy o' a grace as lang's my arm." The Englishman, somewhat taken aback, goes to the next patient, who immediately launches into: "Some hae meat, and canna eat, and some wad eat that want it, But we hae meat and we can eat, and sae the Lord be thankit." And suddenly the next patient sits up and declaims. "Wee sleekit cow'rin tim'rous beastie, O what a panic's in thy breastie! Thou need na start awa sae hasty, wi' bickering brattle I wad be laith to run and chase thee, wi' murdering prattle!" "Well," said the Englishman to his Scottish colleague, "I see you saved the psychiatric ward for the last." "Nay, nay," the Scottish doctor corrected him, "This is the Serious Burns Unit." _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From mbales Wed May 9 08:01:07 2001 From: mbales (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 08:01:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Scotch Tape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Moira: > "Nay, nay," the Scottish doctor corrected him, "This is the > Serious Burns Unit." A woman has identical twins, and gives them up for adoption. One of them goes to a family in Egypt and is named "Amal." The other goes to a family in Spain; they name him "Juan." Years later, Juan sends a picture of himself to his mom. Upon receiving the picture, she tells her husband that she wishes she also had a picture of Amal. Her husband responds, "But they are twins - if you've seen Juan, you've seen Amal." mbales at cybergate.net From JforJames Wed May 9 09:10:31 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 09:10:31 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] 3rBed Message-ID: 3rdBed #4 is now out featuring: Marc Kipniss Jason Nelson Alan DeNiro M. S. Fodhi-Da-Zen Tex Kerschen John Branseum Michael Burkard Stacey Levine Daniel Coshnear Jessica Treat Jeffrey Encke Maile Chapman Alia Hanna Habib Willard Bohn Brooks Haxton About 3rdBed: 3rd bed is a journal publishing innovative work by known, unknown, and forgotten writers; writers who move beyond the front lawn of domestic realism. We are looking for fiction, for poetry, and for work that blurs the distinction between these genres; we are looking for translations of authors living and dead; we are looking for a range of pieces that evoke anything from disquiet to whimsy, from the jarring to the soothing: work that may be variously urgent, kaleidoscopic, infantile, or elliptical. -- Andrea Baker associate poetry editor http://www.3rdBed.com From wasanthony Wed May 9 12:16:20 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 09:16:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Sven Birkerts?? Message-ID: <20010509161620.76154.qmail@web12106.mail.yahoo.com> Have had no luck via the web in finding the current whereabouts and e-mail address of Sven Birkerts. Perhaps someone on this list knows the answers? I'd like to invite him to a lit conference. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From moira_russell Wed May 9 12:28:35 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 08:28:35 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sven Birkerts?? Message-ID: Doesn't he teach at Bennington? >From: jcervantes >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >To: NewPoetry >Subject: [New-Poetry] Sven Birkerts?? >Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 09:16:20 -0700 (PDT) > >Have had no luck via the web in finding the current whereabouts and >e-mail address of Sven Birkerts. Perhaps someone on this list knows >the answers? I'd like to invite him to a lit conference. > >- Jim > >===== >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net >Salt River Review: >"Ripples" @ >Poetserv: >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices >http://auctions.yahoo.com/ >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From eselinge Wed May 9 12:32:26 2001 From: eselinge (Eric Selinger) Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 11:32:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Multi-cultural American Poetry" Class Message-ID: A net thrown for suggestions! Here at DePaul all sophomores have to take a seminar on "Multiculturalism in the United States," but various courses fit the bill. In my endless quest to teach more poetry, I've proposed a "Multicultural American Poetry" course, and it's been cleared, at least so far. So: for the summer I have 5 weeks, 20-30 students of various majors (many, even most, not English majors), and the requirement that I treat works or authors from at least 3 recognized (or recognizable) "multicultural" groups--but in practice that includes religious difference, sexual identity, geography, and class, as well as the usual racial / ethnic categories. Other than that I have absolutely free rein on readings and assignments. Next time I teach it I'll have 10 weeks, and the same freedom. What do y'all suggest? I'd love ideas for poets, poems, anthologies--the works! Let's leave aside questions of whether such a course should be offered at all--remember, it's mostly an excuse for me to teach what I love (poetry) and for students to take this required course in a way that won't badger them about politics (unless I want it to). --EMS From JforJames Wed May 9 13:43:52 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 13:43:52 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Sven Birkerts?? Message-ID: <8b.65d8c2d.282adbd8@aol.com> Seems I've seen his name associated with the MFA in Creative Writing at Emerson College in Boston MA; and on the masthead of the Boston Review. From wasanthony Wed May 9 14:04:10 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Sven Birkerts?? In-Reply-To: <8b.65d8c2d.282adbd8@aol.com> Message-ID: <20010509180410.11881.qmail@web12104.mail.yahoo.com> --- JforJames at aol.com wrote: > Seems I've seen his name associated with the MFA > in Creative Writing at Emerson College in Boston MA; > and on the masthead of the Boston Review. > Heard from a friend who's in the Bennington program that he's there and she's getting me phone numbers; also heard from another friend who has his secret address. Ah, I love the internet. Hope that's true that he's on The Boston Review masthead and I hope he reads it cause I'm in the current or forthcoming issue - not sure because I haven't gotten my contributor's copy yet, but the publication is/was imminent. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From Rsgwynn1 Wed May 9 14:14:22 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 14:14:22 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Missing Person Message-ID: <25.150922e2.282ae2fe@cs.com> Does anyone know the current address/affiliation of Simon Ortiz? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin Wed May 9 14:23:10 2001 From: antrobin (Anthony Robinson) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:23:10 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Multi-cultural American Poetry" Class References: Message-ID: <00f301c0d8b5$1cb9e940$3facefd8@0021936706> Hi Eric, As suspicious as I am of the rubric "Multicultural Poetry," I'll toss a couple suggestions your way: Jimmy Santiago Baca (chicano poet) His work is extremely uneven, but full of energy with great passages of beauty. If anything, at least in his early poems, he seems too quickly sentimental, and not a very good editor of his own work. That said, he was one of the first poets I actually read for pleasure as a teenager. He "spoke to me," you could say. Many of the poems in his first book "Immigrants in Our Own Land" are "prison poems" which I suppose covers another minority. There's always Frank O'Hara, who manages to be openly gay in many of his poems, although I realize that that's probably not a criterion for selection. Tony > A net thrown for suggestions! > > Here at DePaul all sophomores have to take a seminar on "Multiculturalism in the United States," but various courses fit the bill. In my endless quest to teach more poetry, I've proposed a "Multicultural American Poetry" course, and it's been cleared, at least so far. > > So: for the summer I have 5 weeks, 20-30 students of various majors (many, even most, not English majors), and the requirement that I treat works or authors from at least 3 recognized (or recognizable) "multicultural" groups--but in practice that includes religious difference, sexual identity, geography, and class, as well as the usual racial / ethnic categories. Other than that I have absolutely free rein on readings and assignments. Next time I teach it I'll have 10 weeks, and the same freedom. > > What do y'all suggest? I'd love ideas for poets, poems, anthologies--the works! Let's leave aside questions of whether such a course should be offered at all--remember, it's mostly an excuse for me to teach what I love (poetry) and for students to take this required course in a way that won't badger them about politics (unless I want it to). > > --EMS > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From MerwinDame Wed May 9 14:47:35 2001 From: MerwinDame (MerwinDame at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 14:47:35 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Scotch Tape Message-ID: In a message dated 5/9/01 4:50:06 AM Pacific Daylight Time, mbales at cybergate.net writes: << A woman has identical twins, and gives them up for adoption. One of them goes to a family in Egypt and is named "Amal." The other goes to a family in Spain; they name him "Juan." Years later, Juan sends a picture of himself to his mom. Upon receiving the picture, she tells her husband that she wishes she also had a picture of Amal. Her husband responds, "But they are twins - if you've seen Juan, you've seen Amal." mbales at cybergate.net >> hurrah, herr bales -- i absolutely LOVED this one! :) *muffy* for your further belly-chuckling consideration: I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So, I ran over and said, "Stop! Don't do it!" "Why shouldn't I?" he said. I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!" He said, "Like what?" I said, "Well...are you Religious or Atheist?" He said, "Religious." I said, "Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?" He said, "Christian." I said, "Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?" He said, "Baptist!" I said, "Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist Church of God, or Baptist Church of the Lord?" He said, "Baptist Church of God!" I said, "Me too! Are you Original Baptist Church of God, or are you Reformed Baptist Church of God?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God!" I said, "Me too! Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed Baptist Church of God, Reformation of 1915!" I said, "Die, Heretic Scum...", and pushed him off. -- Emo Phillips From paul.lake Wed May 9 04:42:31 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 03:42:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why poetry (and literature) matters Message-ID: There's an interesting article by Mario Vargas Llosa in The New Republic Online at the following: http://www.thenewrepublic.com/051401/llosa051401.html In it Llosa makes a strong case for the humanizing power of literature. Paul Lake From wasanthony Wed May 9 17:16:38 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 14:16:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Missing Person In-Reply-To: <25.150922e2.282ae2fe@cs.com> Message-ID: <20010509211638.11378.qmail@web12107.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > Does anyone know the current address/affiliation of Simon Ortiz? > He's currently at the Telluride Institute. Sorry I can't offer more than that. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From MillB Wed May 9 17:35:11 2001 From: MillB (MillB at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 17:35:11 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Check out Native American Authors: Simon J. Ortiz Message-ID: <31.14718a55.282b120f@aol.com> Greetings: There's a reference page about Simon Ortiz on the web--if you click the link below, it will take you there. Mill Click here: Native American Authors: Simon J. Ortiz From aprentiss Wed May 9 17:55:48 2001 From: aprentiss (Amber Prentiss) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 17:55:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why poetry (and literature) matters Message-ID: He seems to be preaching to the choir, not the congregation, so I don't understand why he wrote this article exhorting people to read when his audience seems to be people who are well-read. Referencing Cervantes and Madame Bovary would not convince someone who hasn't read either for whatever reason that he ought to read. Telling people that they should read because of Borges presumes that they've read Borges, and if they've already Borges, why is the author telling them to read? I'm 19 and eleven-twelfths years old. I haven't read all these books, but I do read, and I feel slighted. I should read so I can express myself better? I should read Great Literature so I can be able to have conversations over martinis saying "Borgesian?" It sounds like reading for vocabulary, that nasty practice of secondary schooling. Learning about myself and the human condition through reading doesn't necessarily make myself a nicer, better, and well-spoken person, either. Also, this passage seems particularly narrow: When one imagines such a world, one is tempted to picture primitives in loincloths, the small magic-religious communities that live at the margins of modernity in Latin America, Oceania, and Africa. But I have a different failure in mind. Failure? Is there suddenly no oral literature anymore? I find it hard to believe that any people would be without stories and certainly that they would be without the spoken or sung traditions of poetry. Some of the oldest pieces in the canon were once told and then written down. I just don't know about this piece. It seems a bit self-congratulatory. -Amber, now free from exams. -----Original Message----- From: Paul Lake To: New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 5/9/01 4:42 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Why poetry (and literature) matters There's an interesting article by Mario Vargas Llosa in The New Republic Online at the following: http://www.thenewrepublic.com/051401/llosa051401.html In it Llosa makes a strong case for the humanizing power of literature. Paul Lake _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards Wed May 9 21:13:50 2001 From: tadrichards (OTIS RICHARDS) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 21:13:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Multi-cultural American Poetry" Class References: <00f301c0d8b5$1cb9e940$3facefd8@0021936706> Message-ID: <020001c0d8ee$7962ad60$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> The infamous Adrienne Rich BAP, which is nowhere near as bad as it's been made out to be. In fact, it's pretty good. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anthony Robinson" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 2:23 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "Multi-cultural American Poetry" Class > Hi Eric, > > As suspicious as I am of the rubric "Multicultural Poetry," I'll toss a > couple suggestions your way: > > Jimmy Santiago Baca (chicano poet) > > His work is extremely uneven, but full of energy with great passages of > beauty. If anything, at least in his early poems, he seems too quickly > sentimental, and not a very good editor of his own work. That said, he was > one of the first poets I actually read for pleasure as a teenager. He "spoke > to me," you could say. Many of the poems in his first book "Immigrants in > Our Own Land" are "prison poems" which I suppose covers another minority. > > There's always Frank O'Hara, who manages to be openly gay in many of his > poems, although I realize that that's probably not a criterion for > selection. > > Tony > > > > > > > A net thrown for suggestions! > > > > Here at DePaul all sophomores have to take a seminar on "Multiculturalism > in the United States," but various courses fit the bill. In my endless > quest to teach more poetry, I've proposed a "Multicultural American Poetry" > course, and it's been cleared, at least so far. > > > > So: for the summer I have 5 weeks, 20-30 students of various majors > (many, even most, not English majors), and the requirement that I treat > works or authors from at least 3 recognized (or recognizable) > "multicultural" groups--but in practice that includes religious difference, > sexual identity, geography, and class, as well as the usual racial / ethnic > categories. Other than that I have absolutely free rein on readings and > assignments. Next time I teach it I'll have 10 weeks, and the same freedom. > > > > What do y'all suggest? I'd love ideas for poets, poems, anthologies--the > works! Let's leave aside questions of whether such a course should be > offered at all--remember, it's mostly an excuse for me to teach what I love > (poetry) and for students to take this required course in a way that won't > badger them about politics (unless I want it to). > > > > --EMS > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards Wed May 9 21:16:10 2001 From: tadrichards (OTIS RICHARDS) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 21:16:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why poetry (and literature) matters References: Message-ID: <022401c0d8ee$cceeec00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Amber....you have a birthday coming up? Details, details. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amber Prentiss" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 5:55 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Why poetry (and literature) matters > He seems to be preaching to the choir, not the congregation, so I don't > understand why he wrote this article exhorting people to read when his > audience seems to be people who are well-read. Referencing Cervantes and > Madame Bovary would not convince someone who hasn't read either for whatever > reason that he ought to read. Telling people that they should read because > of Borges presumes that they've read Borges, and if they've already Borges, > why is the author telling them to read? > > I'm 19 and eleven-twelfths years old. I haven't read all these books, but I > do read, and I feel slighted. I should read so I can express myself better? > I should read Great Literature so I can be able to have conversations over > martinis saying "Borgesian?" It sounds like reading for vocabulary, that > nasty practice of secondary schooling. Learning about myself and the human > condition through reading doesn't necessarily make myself a nicer, better, > and well-spoken person, either. > > Also, this passage seems particularly narrow: > > When one imagines such a world, one is tempted to picture primitives in > loincloths, the small magic-religious communities that live at the margins > of modernity in Latin America, Oceania, and Africa. But I have a different > failure in mind. > > > Failure? Is there suddenly no oral literature anymore? I find it hard to > believe that any people would be without stories and certainly that they > would be without the spoken or sung traditions of poetry. Some of the oldest > pieces in the canon were once told and then written down. > > I just don't know about this piece. It seems a bit self-congratulatory. > > -Amber, now free from exams. > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Lake > To: New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: 5/9/01 4:42 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Why poetry (and literature) matters > > There's an interesting article by Mario Vargas Llosa in The New Republic > Online at the following: > > http://www.thenewrepublic.com/051401/llosa051401.html > > > In it Llosa makes a strong case for the humanizing power of literature. > > Paul Lake > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JoFuhrman Wed May 9 21:26:18 2001 From: JoFuhrman (Joanna Fuhrman) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 18:26:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] "Multi-cultural American Poetry" Class Message-ID: <2487827.989457978314.JavaMail.imail@prickles> Hi Eric, Do you know the Before Columbus Foundation Poetry Anthology (on Norton)-- it had some interesting work in it including poems by Amiri Baraka, Mei-mei Berssenbrugge, Jayne Cortez, Allen Ginsberg, Maurice Kenny etc. Joanna _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ From tadrichards Wed May 9 21:30:06 2001 From: tadrichards (OTIS RICHARDS) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 21:30:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Multi-cultural American Poetry" Class References: <2487827.989457978314.JavaMail.imail@prickles> Message-ID: <023801c0d8f0$bf78f5a0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> And there's Frank Chin's magazine.... Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joanna Fuhrman" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 9:26 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] "Multi-cultural American Poetry" Class > Hi Eric, > > Do you know the Before Columbus Foundation Poetry Anthology (on Norton)-- it > had some interesting work in it including poems by Amiri Baraka, Mei-mei > Berssenbrugge, Jayne Cortez, Allen Ginsberg, Maurice Kenny etc. > > Joanna > > > > > > _______________________________________________________ > Send a cool gift with your E-Card > http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From eselinge Wed May 9 21:55:02 2001 From: eselinge (Eric Selinger) Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 20:55:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Multi-Culti Suggestions Message-ID: Thanks for the suggestions--keep them coming, please! O'Hara is a fine idea, and yes, being gay certainly counts in this context (I did Angels in America when I did this as a multi-genre course, getting a Jew in too; it was the single biggest hit of the quarter.) I'll take a look at Baca and the Rich BAP, which I have on my shelves & haven't read in years. I recall liking a lot of it, although thinking that the Sherman Alexie poem at the start was duller than most of his work. As for the rubric itself--I too dislike it. But hey, it's a way for me to slip another poetry course into the curriculum! Other suggestions, from other lists: Harryette Mullen's Muse & Drudge Julia Alvarez, "33" (in Homecomings) Alicia Ostriker, _Nakedness of the Fathers_ Simon Ortiz, From Sand Creek Alexie, Summer of the Black Widows Lucille Clifton, Collected Poems The Oxford Modern American Poetry anthology Any thoughts on any of these? EMS From Rsgwynn1 Wed May 9 22:17:15 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 22:17:15 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Multi-Culti Suggestions Message-ID: <39.1470c87a.282b542b@cs.com> In a message dated 5/9/2001 8:56:11 PM Central Daylight Time, eselinge at wppost.depaul.edu writes: > Harryette Mullen's Muse & Drudge > Julia Alvarez, "33" (in Homecomings) > Alicia Ostriker, _Nakedness of the Fathers_ > Simon Ortiz, From Sand Creek > Alexie, Summer of the Black Widows > Lucille Clifton, Collected Poems > The Oxford Modern American Poetry anthology > > Any thoughts on any of these? > > EMS > The Home Place, by Marilyn Nelson (Waniek then) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Wed May 9 22:18:20 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 22:18:20 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Multi-Culti Suggestions Message-ID: <30.147c6a7b.282b546c@cs.com> In a message dated 5/9/2001 8:56:11 PM Central Daylight Time, eselinge at wppost.depaul.edu writes: > Alicia Ostriker, _Nakedness of the Fathers_ > I'd be interested in learning what aspect of the multicultural experience Alicia Ostriker, fine poet that she sometimes is, represents. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aprentiss Wed May 9 22:23:37 2001 From: aprentiss (Amber Prentiss) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 22:23:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Multi-Culti Suggestions Message-ID: 10-15 bucks: The Vintage Book of African American Poetry. I'm no scholar, but I like it. Wheatley to Komunyakaa and beyond, conveniently sized. "Emily Dickinson's Defunct" and "I am a cowboy in the boat of Ra" in one convenient volume! All right. I'll quit selling. -Amber -----Original Message----- From: Eric Selinger To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 5/9/2001 9:55 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Multi-Culti Suggestions Thanks for the suggestions--keep them coming, please! O'Hara is a fine idea, and yes, being gay certainly counts in this context (I did Angels in America when I did this as a multi-genre course, getting a Jew in too; it was the single biggest hit of the quarter.) I'll take a look at Baca and the Rich BAP, which I have on my shelves & haven't read in years. I recall liking a lot of it, although thinking that the Sherman Alexie poem at the start was duller than most of his work. As for the rubric itself--I too dislike it. But hey, it's a way for me to slip another poetry course into the curriculum! Other suggestions, from other lists: Harryette Mullen's Muse & Drudge Julia Alvarez, "33" (in Homecomings) Alicia Ostriker, _Nakedness of the Fathers_ Simon Ortiz, From Sand Creek Alexie, Summer of the Black Widows Lucille Clifton, Collected Poems The Oxford Modern American Poetry anthology Any thoughts on any of these? EMS _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From aprentiss Wed May 9 22:26:18 2001 From: aprentiss (Amber Prentiss) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 22:26:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why poetry (and literature) matters Message-ID: June 7th! I get to drop the -teen. I should say we - my twin and I were (naturally) born on the same date. She's going to be in Panama doing that oral history thing. Boo hoo. -Amber -----Original Message----- From: OTIS RICHARDS To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 5/9/2001 9:16 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Why poetry (and literature) matters Amber....you have a birthday coming up? Details, details. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amber Prentiss" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 5:55 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Why poetry (and literature) matters > He seems to be preaching to the choir, not the congregation, so I don't > understand why he wrote this article exhorting people to read when his > audience seems to be people who are well-read. Referencing Cervantes and > Madame Bovary would not convince someone who hasn't read either for whatever > reason that he ought to read. Telling people that they should read because > of Borges presumes that they've read Borges, and if they've already Borges, > why is the author telling them to read? > > I'm 19 and eleven-twelfths years old. I haven't read all these books, but I > do read, and I feel slighted. I should read so I can express myself better? > I should read Great Literature so I can be able to have conversations over > martinis saying "Borgesian?" It sounds like reading for vocabulary, that > nasty practice of secondary schooling. Learning about myself and the human > condition through reading doesn't necessarily make myself a nicer, better, > and well-spoken person, either. > > Also, this passage seems particularly narrow: > > When one imagines such a world, one is tempted to picture primitives in > loincloths, the small magic-religious communities that live at the margins > of modernity in Latin America, Oceania, and Africa. But I have a different > failure in mind. > > > Failure? Is there suddenly no oral literature anymore? I find it hard to > believe that any people would be without stories and certainly that they > would be without the spoken or sung traditions of poetry. Some of the oldest > pieces in the canon were once told and then written down. > > I just don't know about this piece. It seems a bit self-congratulatory. > > -Amber, now free from exams. > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Lake > To: New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: 5/9/01 4:42 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Why poetry (and literature) matters > > There's an interesting article by Mario Vargas Llosa in The New Republic > Online at the following: > > http://www.thenewrepublic.com/051401/llosa051401.html > > > In it Llosa makes a strong case for the humanizing power of literature. > > Paul Lake > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Thom424 Wed May 9 22:31:55 2001 From: Thom424 (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 22:31:55 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Multi-Culti Suggestions Message-ID: <23.b735424.282b579b@aol.com> Unsettling America : An Anthology of Contemporary Multicultural Poetry by Maria M. Gillan (Editor), Jennifer Gillan (Editor), Marua Mazziotti Gillan List Price: $15.95 Paperback - 406 pages (November 1994) Penguin USA (Paper); ISBN: 014023778X ; Dimensions (in inches): 1.17 x 8.96 x 5.97 Editorial Reviews From tadrichards Wed May 9 22:37:46 2001 From: tadrichards (OTIS RICHARDS) Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 22:37:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Multi-Culti Suggestions References: Message-ID: <001501c0d8fe$acb96d60$6401a8c0@ibm25310> Check out http://www.staff.livjm.ac.uk/leagchan/bibliogs/authors.htm Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amber Prentiss" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 10:23 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Re: Multi-Culti Suggestions > > 10-15 bucks: The Vintage Book of African American Poetry. I'm no scholar, > but I like it. Wheatley to Komunyakaa and beyond, conveniently sized. "Emily > Dickinson's Defunct" and "I am a cowboy in the boat of Ra" in one convenient > volume! All right. I'll quit selling. > > -Amber > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Eric Selinger > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: 5/9/2001 9:55 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Multi-Culti Suggestions > > Thanks for the suggestions--keep them coming, please! O'Hara is a fine > idea, and yes, being gay certainly counts in this context (I did Angels > in America when I did this as a multi-genre course, getting a Jew in > too; it was the single biggest hit of the quarter.) I'll take a look at > Baca and the Rich BAP, which I have on my shelves & haven't read in > years. I recall liking a lot of it, although thinking that the Sherman > Alexie poem at the start was duller than most of his work. > > As for the rubric itself--I too dislike it. But hey, it's a way for me > to slip another poetry course into the curriculum! > > Other suggestions, from other lists: > > Harryette Mullen's Muse & Drudge > Julia Alvarez, "33" (in Homecomings) > Alicia Ostriker, _Nakedness of the Fathers_ > Simon Ortiz, From Sand Creek > Alexie, Summer of the Black Widows > Lucille Clifton, Collected Poems > The Oxford Modern American Poetry anthology > > Any thoughts on any of these? > > EMS > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames Thu May 10 09:57:19 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 09:57:19 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Multi-Culti Suggestions Message-ID: <10.ca442f3.282bf83f@aol.com> A few other names/books of note... Martin Espada: City of Coughing & Dead Radiators; Imagine the Angel's of Bread; Zapata's Disciple (essays) Li-Young Lee: Rose Marilyn Chin: Phoenix Gone, the Terrace Empty Carl Phillips: Cortege Wanda Coleman: Bathwater Wine Joy Harjo: She Had Some Horses; In Mad Love & War Cyrus Cassells: Soul Make A Path Through Shouting From JforJames Thu May 10 10:48:53 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 10:48:53 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Can Poetry Matter (on the other side of the Atlantic)? Message-ID: The Poetry Question (As printed in the Spring 2001 issue of Poetry News) In 1964, Adrian Mitchell said that "most people ignore most poetry because most poetry ignores most people". Was he right then? Is it still true now? Roddy Lumsden asked citizens of the poetry world if Mitchell's much quoted line heralded a retreat from elitism, or whether he simply chose to ignore a different 95% of us. "If Mitchell were right, and had done something about it in his own work, his poems would be read by most people, wouldn't they? And they're not. Most poetry is relevant to everyone, but most people think they don't know how to unlock it, or don't think it's worth the bother. In any activity, you need to put in some effort to reap the reward. It's not a matter of making more accessible poems; it's to do with giving people the keys to access what's already there, and showing them it is worth the bother." Peter Howard ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- "Perhaps Ade was anticipating his namesake's memorable jingle (well, I remember it), "Mitchell's Self-Drive, where people come first". Advertising touches more people than poetry, yet surely such saturation coverage is not what poetry is seeking. I'm reminded of an essay by Ian Walker (for "Postcard" read "Poem"): '... for where the often breathtaking cleverness of adverts is always undermined by their exploitative ethics, (...) one can feel much more positive about postcards. They are touchingly innocent, and indeed plucky in their attempt to match up to the overwhelming variety and richness of the world. (...) Compared to the most subdued of advertising campaigns, their impact is modest. And, perhaps for that reason, they are more subtly persuasive than an advert could ever be'." Ken Cockburn ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- "When are we going to stop worrying about how marginal poetry is? It might be true that the majority of people have little interest in, or don't know how to read, poetry but it is not for any poem to make concessions to that lack of curiosity or application. Poetry's more important job is to work at being a standard-bearer of language and thought; the best poems should offer us a glimpse at wisdom and wonder. Most people today don't care for that. I suspect it has rarely been different." Greta Stoddart ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- Mitchell's remark reduces poetry to its subject matter. Most poetry limits its scope in one way or another (Dr Johnson laughed at the poet of commerce who wanted his muse to sing of rats), but that isn't why people ignore it. They do so because reading it is a skill they don't have the time or inclination to learn. For myself, it may have been poetry's marginality that first attracted me, appealing to my sense of being an outsider. At all events, those that do drift in stay not because of some contrived populism, but because they've experienced its power." Matthew Francis ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- "The ability to speak to the masses is a skill most poets lack. One wonders why popular poets are dismissed by the poetry world's critical organs. I believe there is an elitist class within the poetry world, terrified by a populism which reflects their own linguistic constipation and ever-dwindling bank balances. Thankfully, Adrian Mitchell's maxim is rapidly becoming redundant." Steve Tasane ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- "Mitchell remixed: most people fear most poetry because they know nothing about it. Well, they know it's for extreme states - love, grief - but those are scary places. Some poetry is afraid of people, hiding behind Culture as if reading the 'Book of Job' makes you a better person than supporting Middlesbrough. Poetry the celebration of quotidian miracles doesn't get reported. People think poetry will be more ethereal than they can stand. Poets see it the other way round: for them, the practical, technical aspects of poetry are what make it sublime. But then they (some of them) actually read it." W N Herbert ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- "We need to start thinking in terms of 'poetries' and include the full range of contemporary practice. Most importantly, we need to understand what it is that people want and need from the poetries they read and enjoy. It seems to me that this is just different from what professional poets want. Research needs to be funded into what might be called the social functions of poetry, into understanding how poetry is a way of behaving in language that is also a particular way of behaving in the world. That's the only way to understand the relationship between poetries and people." David Kennedy ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- "Mitchell's comment underlines the importance of poetry's readers. How many poets would keep writing if there was no audience? Various things have changed since 1964 and I imagine that today, fewer members of the public are ignoring poetry because the poetry world, from the Poetry Society down to individual poets, is working harder to broaden the audience for poetry. It is losing some of its "elitist" mystique. Thanks to the internet, poetry in performance, poets in schools, workshops, competitions, 'Poetry Places' schemes, festivals and poetry mixed-media events, poetry is slowly gaining greater visibility and indeed, popularity, a fact often not realised by festival organisers, literary editors and assorted publishers. Are people buying books? Not nearly enough, but that's another story." Katherine Gallagher ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- "I wrote this slogan to distract the attention of reviewers from the vulnerably naked poems in my first book. The trick worked. Way back then in 1964 most published poets in Britain were straight white middle-class male adults from Oxbridge. Since then, partly because of the rise of the oral poetry movement, there has been a welcome flood of books and performances by gay, non-white, working-class, women and child poets, many of whom haven't been to university. That's progress. But poetry, one of the great arts, is still largely ignored by the Arts Council, the press, TV and - its natural home - radio. Venceremos!" Adrian Mitchell From acgold01 Thu May 10 11:17:45 2001 From: acgold01 (Alan C. Golding) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 11:17:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Thoughts on Mullen for Eric Message-ID: Hi, Eric-- Re Mullen's Muse & Drudge: I've taught it at the undergrad and grad level (and in a rush over the summer), and in my experience students (including the non-majors) love it. As with all sorts of texts, one has to take a little time to acclimatize the group to the book's verbal worlds and the sort of reading it asks for, but then they really get into it. I usually combine it with brief selections from her first book, Tree Tall Woman, and from Trimmings, for context, and use her "Poetry and Identity" essay; and she has some very instructive and accessible interviews that also help. On the Gillan anthology Unsettling America: it seems to me mostly predictable and uninteresting both formally and thematically--indistinguishable from the last 100 pages of any anthology of American lit that you'd care to name (the Heath, the Norton, the x, the y). I've also had good luck teaching Cha's Dictee, one of my favorite books, though a few more people remain baffled by that than they do by the Mullen. Alan From jdavis Thu May 10 12:40:27 2001 From: jdavis (Jordan Davis) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 12:40:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Addendum on Mullen / Cha In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Juliana Spahr's new book _Everybody's Autonomy_ has chapters on Mullen and Cha, with specific reference to classroom use. Jordan Davis From dzauhar Thu May 10 13:48:04 2001 From: dzauhar (David Zauhar) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 12:48:04 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Thoughts on Mullen for Eric In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I also taught Mullen to undergrads, though in a "Gender/Sexuality/literature course. Students had no trouble getting into it, though I suspect having read Stein's _Tender Buttons_ about a month before made it a lot more accessible to them than it otherwise would've been. Dictee, though I've never taught it, would also be great, especially if you want to complicate students' senses of how these cultural identities are formed in and through writing. David Zauhar University of Illinois at Chicago "i have a city to cover with lines" --d.a. levy On Thu, 10 May 2001, Alan C. Golding wrote: > Hi, Eric-- > > Re Mullen's Muse & Drudge: I've taught it at the undergrad and grad level (and in a rush over the summer), and in my experience students (including the non-majors) love it. As with all sorts of texts, one has to take a little time to acclimatize the group to the book's verbal worlds and the sort of reading it asks for, but then they really get into it. I usually combine it with brief selections from her first book, Tree Tall Woman, and from Trimmings, for context, and use her "Poetry and Identity" essay; and she has some very instructive and accessible interviews that also help. > > On the Gillan anthology Unsettling America: it seems to me mostly predictable and uninteresting both formally and thematically--indistinguishable from the last 100 pages of any anthology of American lit that you'd care to name (the Heath, the Norton, the x, the y). > > I've also had good luck teaching Cha's Dictee, one of my favorite books, though a few more people remain baffled by that than they do by the Mullen. > > Alan > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From mmagee Thu May 10 14:10:41 2001 From: mmagee (Michael Magee) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 14:10:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Thoughts on Mullen for Eric In-Reply-To: from "David Zauhar" at May 10, 2001 12:48:04 pm Message-ID: <200105101810.OAA08734@dept.english.upenn.edu> Not to just pile on praise for Mullen but, yes, count me along with the others as someone who has taught Mullen to undergrads w/ a lot of success. This is, incidentally, something which can be predicted to some degree by anyone who has attended a Mullen reading - heterodox audiences, by poetry standards, responding to a remarkably wide register within the poems. IN the classroom, students almost invariably find something to hang their hat on (bit of recognized vernacular speech, a line from a song, or something as nebulous as a tone which to them seems inviting) while never coming close to exhausting the work, which is what makes it so fun to teach. I mean, where else (okay I can think of a handful of places) can you talk about Stein, Kristeva and Lakeside's "All the Way Live" in a bout a minutes span? More more more... BTW, the interview whch Farah Griffin, Kristen Galagher and I did w/ Harryette can be found on the EPC website, here: http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc/authors/mullen/interview-new.html -m. ccording to David Zauhar: > > I also taught Mullen to undergrads, though in a > "Gender/Sexuality/literature course. Students had no trouble getting into > it, though I suspect having read Stein's _Tender Buttons_ about a month > before made it a lot more accessible to them than it otherwise would've > been. > Dictee, though I've never taught it, would also be great, > especially if you want to complicate students' senses of how these > cultural identities are formed in and through writing. > > David Zauhar > University of Illinois at Chicago > > "i have a city to cover with lines" > > --d.a. levy > > On Thu, 10 May 2001, Alan C. Golding wrote: > > > Hi, Eric-- > > > > Re Mullen's Muse & Drudge: I've taught it at the undergrad and grad level (and in a rush over the summer), and in my experience students (including the non-majors) love it. As with all sorts of texts, one has to take a little time to acclimatize the group to the book's verbal worlds and the sort of reading it asks for, but then they really get into it. I usually combine it with brief selections from her first book, Tree Tall Woman, and from Trimmings, for context, and use her "Poetry and Identity" essay; and she has some very instructive and accessible interviews that also help. > > > > On the Gillan anthology Unsettling America: it seems to me mostly predictable and uninteresting both formally and thematically--indistinguishable from the last 100 pages of any anthology of American lit that you'd care to name (the Heath, the Norton, the x, the y). > > > > I've also had good luck teaching Cha's Dictee, one of my favorite books, though a few more people remain baffled by that than they do by the Mullen. > > > > Alan > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From ron.silliman Thu May 10 16:24:14 2001 From: ron.silliman (Ron Silliman) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 16:24:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Silliman & Tuttle May 12 in Washington DC Message-ID: <002101c0d98f$3af8aba0$3353fea9@oemcomputer> We hope you can join us Saturday, May 12 at 7:30 p.m. at the Ruthless Grip Poetry Series at Washington Printmakers (1732 Connecticut Ave., second floor, several blocks north of the Dupont Circle Q Street Metro Exit) for a fabulous evening of poetry with RON SILLIMAN and BILL TUTTLE. Since 1979, RON SILLIMAN has been writing a poem entitled The Alphabet. Volumes published thus far from that project have included ABC, Demo to Ink,Jones, Lit, Manifest, N/O, Paradise, (R), Toner, What and Xing. Silliman lives in Chester County, Pennsylvania, with his wife and two sons, and works as a market analyst in the computer industry. His anthology In the American Tree is soon to be re-issued with a new afterword, and Salt is republishing his longpoem Tjanting for British and Australian audiences. BILL TUTTLE is the author of two books of poetry, Private Residence (Leave Books) and epistolary: first series (meow press). His poems and reviews have appeared in Denver Quarterly, Kiosk, Situation, and Open 24 Hours, as well as the anthologies The Gertrude Stein Awards in Innovative American Poetry 1993-94 and Writing from the New Coast. In 1997 he earned his PhD from the Poetics Program at SUNY-Buffalo, writing a dissertation on the meditative long poems of Gertrude Stein, Wallace Stevens, and John Ashbery. Tuttle is also a songwriter and works as a studio musician, playing piano and retro spaceage keyboard. He currently teaches English at Central Community College in Columbus, Nebraska. From mcdono Thu May 10 16:58:16 2001 From: mcdono (Judy McDonough) Date: Thu, 10 May 2001 15:58:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] any wonderful little WCW book like the Vendler on Stevens? Message-ID: <001701c0d993$efd5a5b0$a9712e80@ecn.purdue.edu> The Vendler book on Stevens is so wonderful I'm wondering if there's anything as good as an introduction to Williams? Judy Smith McDonough, editor poetrynow http://www.poetrynow.org From dzauhar Fri May 11 08:53:29 2001 From: dzauhar (David Zauhar) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 07:53:29 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] any wonderful little WCW book like the Vendler on Stevens? In-Reply-To: <001701c0d993$efd5a5b0$a9712e80@ecn.purdue.edu> Message-ID: Sherman Paul's _The Music of Survival_, perhaps. Or James Breslin's _William Carlos Williams: An American Artist_. And a more post-structuralist (actually, Heideggarian) approach: Joseph Riddel's _The Inverted Bell: Modernism and the Counterpoetics of WCW_. Of course, these books just pop into my mind, and the most recent, Riddel's, has to be at least 25 years old. Can anyone update my bibliography? David Zauhar University of Illinois at Chicago "i have a city to cover with lines" --d.a. levy On Thu, 10 May 2001, Judy McDonough wrote: > The Vendler book on Stevens is so wonderful I'm wondering > if there's anything as good as an introduction to Williams? > > Judy Smith McDonough, editor > poetrynow > http://www.poetrynow.org > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From JforJames Fri May 11 08:55:06 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 08:55:06 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Our National Pastime In 3 Lines Message-ID: <3d.b8a2dc1.282d3b2a@aol.com> Submission Deadline: Wednesday, August 1, 2001 The Loft's First Annual Baseball Haiku Prize invites poets and baseball fans to enter as many baseball haiku as they'd like in a competition saluting the American pastime. The Loft will print the best baseball haiku it receives in issues of A View from the Loft, through the 2001 baseball season. Three winners will be chosen in late August to receive a pair of Twins tickets for a game this September. Our contract: we don't expect great poems; you don't expect a pennant race. Poems must be about baseball and must be three lines long (if you don't count syllables, we won't either). Enter early and often for the best chance of seeing your baseball haiku in print and for a crack at Twins tickets. Send all entries (as many as you can stuff into an envelope), by August 1, 2001, to Baseball Haiku, The Loft Literary Center, Suite 200, Open Book, 1011 Washington Avenue South, Minneapolis, MN 55415. Make sure you retain a copy of your haiku. The Loft cannot return them. From JforJames Fri May 11 11:28:47 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 May 2001 11:28:47 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Canon Cut & Paste: Norton Anthology of Theory and Criticism Message-ID: <7e.14b3455b.282d5f2f@aol.com> Making the Cut When the editors of a new Norton anthology decided which writers to keep and which to drop, they cemented theory's place in the academy By SCOTT McLEMEE Full article at... http://chronicle.com/free/v47/i34/34a01601.htm#survivors Excerpts... As central as Mr. Cain finds the work of William Empson, whose book Seven Kinds of Ambiguity influenced generations of English professors, the market forces were not on his side. "There were a lot of constraints," Mr. Cain notes, "certainly more than I expected coming in." "Criticism," Mr. Leitch maintains, no longer means "belletristic" essays by figures such as Lionel Trilling and Alfred Kazin, who wrote for an educated readership outside the university. Instead, Norton is marketing the book to young teachers -- and more experienced instructors who do not want to be hopelessly behind the times -- who may need help to guide their students through Gayatri Spivak's "Can the Subaltern Speak?" should the occasion arise. LITERARY SURVIVORS Nobody said shaping a canon would be easy. In 1996, the editors of The Norton Anthology of Theory and Criticism had a list of 300 candidates for inclusion. After numerous elimination rounds over the next few years, they cut that number almost in half. Last autumn, they discovered that the volume still approached 3,000 pages -- huge, even for a Norton anthology. At the last possible moment, almost two dozen contenders had to be cut. The finished book contains work by 147 prominent figures. Here is a sampling of works that made the cut -- and a few of those that didn't. 10 Who Made the Cut Aristotle (384-322 B.C.) Poetics Christine de Pizan (c. 1364-c. 1430) Excerpts from The Book of the City of Ladies Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel (1770-1831) Introduction to the Philosophy of Fine Arts T. S. Eliot (1888-1965) "Tradition and the Individual Talent" Roman Jakobson (1896-1982) From Cadaly Sat May 12 16:17:06 2001 From: Cadaly (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 16:17:06 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] evolve or die (was norton anthology of critical works) Message-ID: <6b.1440341a.282ef442@aol.com> It's pretty unfortunate they decided to republish so much work that's in the public domain and easily available online, and then had to cut essays students actually don't have and need. Rgds, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards Sat May 12 17:13:29 2001 From: tadrichards (OTIS RICHARDS) Date: Sat, 12 May 2001 17:13:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] evolve or die (was norton anthology of critical works) References: <6b.1440341a.282ef442@aol.com> Message-ID: <000d01c0db28$655c5aa0$6401a8c0@ibm25310> How much is/will/should the availability of public domain work online affect the anthology biz? Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: Cadaly at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2001 4:17 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] evolve or die (was norton anthology of critical works) It's pretty unfortunate they decided to republish so much work that's in the public domain and easily available online, and then had to cut essays students actually don't have and need. Rgds, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wasanthony Sun May 13 08:30:32 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 05:30:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Sven Birkerts declines . . . Message-ID: <20010513123032.79733.qmail@web12104.mail.yahoo.com> the invitation to be keynote speaker for our lit festival, and via an e-mail yet. So now I must find someone else of his caliber in a hurry, and preferably someone who lives not too many states away. Any suggestions? I combed the AWP list and could find no one like that - someone with name-recognition quality. I should be able to think of someone but my head is too crowded with end-of-semester crapola. Actually, I was thinking Robert Sward, who I met in Palm Springs and found quite urbane and eloquent. But, any suggestions would be appreciated. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From JforJames Sun May 13 22:06:38 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 May 2001 22:06:38 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Mulling Over Mullen's Muse & Drudge Message-ID: <9e.144f5620.283097ae@aol.com> I'm glad I read Michael Magee's interview... Harryette Mullen: "I think it's the rhythm and the rhyme, those musical qualities that the poem has. I thought of this as a poem that people could hear even if they didn't really understand it all. I don't expect anyone to understand it all. Even I don't understand it all because some of it is literally nonsense. I mean some of it is my riffing around with words and just seeing what comes out. There's an improvisational aspect to it, and it's not necessarily meant to have a deep meaning, although in some cases it might be meaningful in ways not immediately apparent. My idea is to allow people to be carried along by the oral qualities of the work in those moments when they're not getting it at some other level. So there's still a way that they can be in and with the poem." ...because this is very much what I got out of the book-poem(s) a couple of years back when I first read it: A cadenced rimy riffing...some fortuitous word combinations, for sure; and a certain amount of felicitous phrasing. But nothing groundbreaking to speak of. A ride with a mind using sound as its primary means of propulsion. And some "groaner" puns worked in for good measure. A book(poem) of 80 pages: each page contains a four four line stanzas. It's difficult to tell if each page is meant to stand as both a discrete piece & part-n-parcel of the whole. But I feel the book is meant to be read whole: beginning to end. By the end the 80 pages aggregate to something very much akin to "voice": A singular style of singing that gives the "speaker" some ghostly definition: A who(le). I read the poem straight through in a single sitting. It's not every book of poetry I can say that about. But I'm not sure that is necessarily a good thing. Without narrative underpinnings or a particular subjective perspective/stance, it's perhaps too easy for the mind to run roughshod over such poems. The reader untroubled because the author doesn't seem to have troubled to convince either by rendering distinct experience or by nuance of thought. (Excerpts below.) Finnegan -- excerpts from Muse & Drudge: Sapphire's lyre styles plucked eyebrows bow lips and legs whose lives are lonely too my last nerve's lucid music sure chewed up the juicy fruit you must don't like my peaches there's some left on the tree you've had my thrills a reefer a tub of gin don't mess with me I'm evil I'm in your sin clipped bird eclipsed moon soon no memory of you no drive or desire survives you flutter invisible still (p 1) keep your powder dry your knees together your dress down your drawers shut a picture perfect twisted her limbs lovely as a tree for art's sake muse of the world picks out stark melodies her raspy fabric tickling the ebonies you can sing their songs with words your way put it over to the people know what you doing (p 17) sugar shack full of fat sweaty ladies women of size with men who love too much what is inward wanting to get out prey to the lard trying to pass for butter cakewalk matrix tapping the frets dubbed and mastered tucked into the folds kiss my black bottom good and plenty where the doorknob split the sun don't shine (p 23) up from slobbery hip hyperbole the soles of black feet beat down back streets a Yankee porkchop for your knife and fork your fill of freedom in Philmeyork never trouble rupture urban space fluctuates gentrify the infrastructure feel up vacant spades no moors steady whores studs warn no mares blurred rubble slew of vowels stutter war no more (p. 46) cross color ochre with stalk of okra that prickly lover told her she tastes like an Okie yet lacks the rich aroma of a smoker those cloudy days I'd fly from the icy airport while you tried to breathe life into your bucktoothed scarecrow if you turned down the media so I could write a book then you could look me up in your voluminous recyclopedia raped notes torn as deep ones parted the frank odor of the rodeo the reason a person (p. 68) mister arty martyr a jackass to water changing partners in the middle of a stream bereft of flavor for lack of endeavor he chooses a heifer and loses forever delirious boozer he smoothes her sutures removes a moocher from her future a thing of shreds and patches hideous scarecrow she puts teeth in any nightmare of the man who sleeps with matches (P. 72) just as I am I come knee bent and body bowed this here's sorrow's home my body's southern song cram all you can into jelly jam preserve a feeling keep it sweet so beautiful it was presumptuous to alter the shape of my pleasure in doing or making proceed with abandon finding yourself where you are and who you're playing for with stray companion (p. 80) From bckice Mon May 14 11:26:21 2001 From: bckice (brent kice) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 10:26:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wallace Stevens-Anecdote of the Jar Message-ID: <3afff91d.9390.0@loyno.edu> Wallace Stevens? ?Anecdote of the Jar." I found this poem rather disapointing. It appears to be about a public subject, but written from a private point of view. I am certain that the jar represents something specific to Stevens. I guess it represents some entity within society, maybe industry, through the line, ?It took dominion everywhere.? But then again, he syas, ?I placed a jar in Tennesse.? So, it means that this ?jar? was actually put in place by Stevens. This jar even quelled the wilderness, ?The wilderness rose up to it, / And sprawled around, no longer wild.? This jar only halts things from growing. ?It did not give of bird or bush.? Why does Stevens want to put down a jar that will only ruin things in the end? Maybe if I knew more about him I could have a better understanding of what Tennesse has to do with it. From paul.lake Mon May 14 02:26:04 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 01:26:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bi-polar Emily? Message-ID: An article in today's Washington Post on Emily Dickinson. Paul Lake http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22628-2001May13.html From JforJames Mon May 14 13:36:59 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 13:36:59 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Big City Lit Message-ID: <3c.baf026c.283171bb@aol.com> From moira_russell Mon May 14 13:48:05 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 09:48:05 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bi-polar Emily? Message-ID: I love the empty but-of-course-this-is-all-speculation caveat along paragraph 3: "Diagnosing the mental conditions of the deceased is highly speculative, and linking genius and madness tends to romanticize mental illness: Madness is certainly not a requirement for creativity, and most people with serious mental illnesses are tormented and dysfunctional, not great artists." The rest of the article, of course, is taken up with happy speculating. "Robert Weisberg, a psychologist at Temple University, studied the 19th-century German composer Robert Schumann....to see whether the music created during his manic periods was better. 'He produced a lot more when he was manic, but not a lot that was better,' said Weisberg, who used the number of recordings made of the composer's works to determine 'quality.'" -- The _hell?_ And for heaven's sake, mania doesn't make you psychotic until it rages out of control in "white nights." A professor of psychiatry doesn't know this? No, I suppose what would be surprising would be if a professor of psychiatry _did_ know that. Connolly's "jackals snarling over a dried-up well" has turned into "armchair psychologists arguing over long-gone psyches," apparently. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From JforJames Mon May 14 15:14:22 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 15:14:22 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Anthology of 20th Century British & Irish Poetry. Message-ID: <83.b095906.2831888e@aol.com> I was thinking the other day that I've probably read hundreds of contemporary American poets, but I know the work of only a handful of contemporary British poets (& maybe few more of the Irish). I know the work of less than a handful of Australian. I can hold up no fingers to represent New Zealand. And not many Canadian contemporaries, for that matter, come to mind. Web-based magazines like Jacket and listservs are helping me get a better picture of the poetry from other English speaking countries but I'm still benighted. With all the dithering about "Can poetry matter?", I wonder why more isn't written to decry the parochial bias we have in US (tho I suspect it cuts both ways, to some degree). Finnegan FYI from the British Poets list.... Date: Tue, 8 May 2001 11:32:38 -0600 From: Jeremy Green Subject: Review of OUP anthology Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but Jacket 15 now includes former list-maestro Ric Caddel's review of Keith Tuma's Anthology of 20th Century British & Irish Poetry. Find it at: http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/jacket15/caddel-reviews-tuma.html Rather grudging, I thought. Best, Jeremy From moira_russell Mon May 14 15:26:46 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 11:26:46 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Anthology of 20th Century British & Irish Poetry. Message-ID: James wrote: >I can hold up no fingers to represent New Zealand. I like the OUP "Anthology of New Zealand Poetry in English" quite a lot. Pricey but nicely diverse. Somewhere along the line I got a bit obsessed with New Zealand poetry, not sure why -- something to do with early exposure to Janet Frame, I think. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From tadrichards Mon May 14 15:26:38 2001 From: tadrichards (theoldmole) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 15:26:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bi-polar Emily? References: Message-ID: <008b01c0dcab$cc4d24e0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Re "most people with serious mental illnesses are tormented and ysfunctional, not great artists." Most people without serious mental illness may be cheerful and efficient, but still not great artists. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Moira Russell" To: Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 1:48 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Bi-polar Emily? > > I love the empty but-of-course-this-is-all-speculation caveat along > paragraph 3: "Diagnosing the mental conditions of the deceased is highly > speculative, and linking genius and madness tends to romanticize mental > illness: Madness is certainly not a requirement for creativity, and most > people with serious mental illnesses are tormented and dysfunctional, not > great artists." The rest of the article, of course, is taken up with happy > speculating. > > "Robert Weisberg, a psychologist at Temple University, studied the > 19th-century German composer Robert Schumann....to see whether the music > created during his manic periods was better. 'He produced a lot more when he > was manic, but not a lot that was better,' said Weisberg, who used the > number of recordings made of the composer's works to determine 'quality.'" > -- The _hell?_ > > And for heaven's sake, mania doesn't make you psychotic until it rages out > of control in "white nights." A professor of psychiatry doesn't know this? > No, I suppose what would be surprising would be if a professor of psychiatry > _did_ know that. > > Connolly's "jackals snarling over a dried-up well" has turned into "armchair > psychologists arguing over long-gone psyches," apparently. > > Moira Russell > Seattle, WA > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard Mon May 14 15:57:52 2001 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 15:57:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bi-polar Emily? In-Reply-To: <008b01c0dcab$cc4d24e0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: > Re "most people with serious mental illnesses are tormented and > ysfunctional, not great artists." > > Most people without serious mental illness may be cheerful and efficient, > but still not great artists. Most great artists may be cheerful and efficient people without serious mental illness. Hal "Poetry is harder to read than prose because you have to read all the white stuff too." Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From tadrichards Mon May 14 16:15:33 2001 From: tadrichards (theoldmole) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:15:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bi-polar Emily? References: Message-ID: <00d801c0dcb2$a144bd60$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> How about those of us with two out of three? I'm pretty cheerful, and have no serious mental illness...but efficient? Uh uh. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 3:57 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Bi-polar Emily? > > Re "most people with serious mental illnesses are tormented and > > ysfunctional, not great artists." > > > > Most people without serious mental illness may be cheerful and efficient, > > but still not great artists. > > Most great artists may be cheerful and efficient people without > serious mental illness. > > Hal "Poetry is harder to read than prose because > you have to read all the white stuff too." > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards Mon May 14 16:20:05 2001 From: tadrichards (theoldmole) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:20:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wallace Stevens-Anecdote of the Jar References: <3afff91d.9390.0@loyno.edu> Message-ID: <00d901c0dcb3$43af6a00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> I always assumed that what the jar did to the wilderness in Tennessee was an awful, unintended consequence of the narrator's putting it there. At least, semi-unintended. But I also think that the quelling of the wilderness takes place in the narrator's mind. One jar can't really do all that to the extent that it would be widely noticed. The narrator, having wilfully defaced the wilderness with this jar - as a test of some sort - now has his own consciousness taken over by the jar. And something else is going on in the narrator's mind, too -- form and craft have intruded upon the wilderness of the imagination. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "brent kice" To: Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 11:26 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Wallace Stevens-Anecdote of the Jar Wallace Stevens' "Anecdote of the Jar." I found this poem rather disapointing. It appears to be about a public subject, but written from a private point of view. I am certain that the jar represents something specific to Stevens. I guess it represents some entity within society, maybe industry, through the line, "It took dominion everywhere." But then again, he syas, "I placed a jar in Tennesse." So, it means that this "jar" was actually put in place by Stevens. This jar even quelled the wilderness, "The wilderness rose up to it, / And sprawled around, no longer wild." This jar only halts things from growing. "It did not give of bird or bush." Why does Stevens want to put down a jar that will only ruin things in the end? Maybe if I knew more about him I could have a better understanding of what Tennesse has to do with it. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From moira_russell Mon May 14 16:35:12 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 12:35:12 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wallace Stevens-Anecdote of the Jar Message-ID: I forget where I read it, but there was a tongue-in-cheek interpretation that explained the jar had been full of moonshine, which had been emptied by the poet, hence resulting in the poem. Or maybe it was in one of those gee-look-at-the-boners-our-students-pulled-golly-isn't-that-cute anthologies. Moira Russell Seattle, WA >I always assumed that what the jar did to the wilderness in Tennessee was >an >awful, unintended consequence of the narrator's putting it there. At least, >semi-unintended. > >But I also think that the quelling of the wilderness takes place in the >narrator's mind. One jar can't really do all that to the extent that it >would be widely noticed. The narrator, having wilfully defaced the >wilderness with this jar - as a test of some sort - now has his own >consciousness taken over by the jar. > >And something else is going on in the narrator's mind, too -- form and >craft >have intruded upon the wilderness of the imagination. > > > Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." > The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet > of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 > http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards >----- Original Message ----- >From: "brent kice" >To: >Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 11:26 AM >Subject: [New-Poetry] Wallace Stevens-Anecdote of the Jar > > >Wallace Stevens' "Anecdote of the Jar." I found this poem rather >disapointing. > It appears to be about a public subject, but written from a private point >of >view. I am certain that the jar represents something specific to Stevens. >I guess it represents some entity within society, maybe industry, through >the >line, "It took dominion everywhere." But then again, he syas, "I placed a >jar >in Tennesse." So, it means that this "jar" was actually put in place by >Stevens. > This jar even quelled the wilderness, "The wilderness rose up to it, / >And >sprawled around, no longer wild." This jar only halts things from growing. > "It did not give of bird or bush." Why does Stevens want to put down a >jar >that will only ruin things in the end? Maybe if I knew more about him I >could >have a better understanding of what Tennesse has to do with it. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From Edward.Byrne Mon May 14 16:56:16 2001 From: Edward.Byrne (Edward Byrne) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 15:56:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bi-polar Emily? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: From tadrichards Mon May 14 17:07:26 2001 From: tadrichards (theoldmole) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 17:07:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bi-polar Emily? References: Message-ID: <00fe01c0dcb9$e10908a0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Has anyone considered the most likely theory? Emily was reclusive because she had a secret identity. To the world, a reclusive, bookish New England spinster. But at night...known only to her faithful butler...CATWOMAN! Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edward Byrne" To: Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 4:56 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Bi-polar Emily? > From the article: "Dickinson was much more prolific during the spring > and summer and much less productive in the winter, he found." > > I have suffered from the same fluctuation in productivity for years. > In fact, my mood switched again last week; however, I have usually > attributed this to something I call "summer vacation." > > Also, I remember a number of years back there was an article in _The > New York Times_ suggesting Emily's reclusiveness was a result of poor > eyesight, a condition called Wall-Eye. > > --Edward Byrne > > > An article in today's Washington Post on Emily Dickinson. > > > > Paul Lake > > > > http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A22628-2001May13.html > > -------------------------------------------------- > > Edward Byrne > Department of English > 322 Huegli Hall > Valparaiso University > Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 > > E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu > http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/ > > Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review > E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu > http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/ > Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 > Fax: (219) 464-5511 > > -------------------------------------------------- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard Mon May 14 17:19:29 2001 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 17:19:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bi-polar Emily? In-Reply-To: <00d801c0dcb2$a144bd60$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: No, no, no, Tad. Your task was to add yet another variant of the original sentence. How are we ever going to finish our work if you keep going off on personal tangents? Hal > How about those of us with two out of three? I'm pretty cheerful, and have > no serious mental illness...but efficient? Uh uh. > > > Tad Richards > > > Re "most people with serious mental illnesses are tormented and > > > ysfunctional, not great artists." > > > > > > Most people without serious mental illness may be cheerful and > > >efficient, but still not great artists. > > > > Most great artists may be cheerful and efficient people without > > serious mental illness. From wasanthony Mon May 14 17:25:03 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 14:25:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Bi-polar Emily? In-Reply-To: <00fe01c0dcb9$e10908a0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <20010514212503.65580.qmail@web12105.mail.yahoo.com> --- theoldmole wrote: > Has anyone considered the most likely theory? Emily was reclusive > because > she had a secret identity. To the world, a reclusive, bookish New > England > spinster. But at night...known only to her faithful > butler...CATWOMAN! Yes, but only during spring and summer. In winter she was WORMWOMAN! - Jim, working on his mood, seriously . . . and cheerfully ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From tadrichards Mon May 14 17:43:12 2001 From: tadrichards (theoldmole) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 17:43:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bi-polar Emily? References: Message-ID: <012e01c0dcbe$dfe1fb80$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Uh oh ... there's that confessional school of poetry popping up again. Most great illnesses can be made into an art by the cheerful and efficient. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: Sent: Monday, May 14, 2001 5:19 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Bi-polar Emily? > No, no, no, Tad. Your task was to add yet another variant > of the original sentence. How are we ever going to finish our > work if you keep going off on personal tangents? > > Hal > > > How about those of us with two out of three? I'm pretty cheerful, and have > > no serious mental illness...but efficient? Uh uh. > > > > > > Tad Richards > > > > Re "most people with serious mental illnesses are tormented and > > > > ysfunctional, not great artists." > > > > > > > > Most people without serious mental illness may be cheerful and > > > >efficient, but still not great artists. > > > > > > Most great artists may be cheerful and efficient people without > > > serious mental illness. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From acgold01 Mon May 14 17:48:58 2001 From: acgold01 (Alan C. Golding) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 17:48:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] English and Irish Poetry Message-ID: On the subject of what Jim Finnegan called "parochial bias" regarding contemporary English poetry, I heartily recommend Keith Tuma's Fishing by Obstinate Isles: Modern and Postmodern British Poetry and American Readers (Northwestern, 1998), which both offers a thorough historical recounting of the phenomenon and helps redress it via some exemplary readings of specific poets. (Keith is the editor of the OUP anthology that's been mentioned.) Alan Golding From CobbCoStudioArts Mon May 14 19:03:24 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 16:03:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Bi-polar Emily? Message-ID: <20010514230324.3747E36FA@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From Jandhodge Mon May 14 21:37:21 2001 From: Jandhodge (Jandhodge at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 May 2001 21:37:21 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Bi-polar Emily? Message-ID: << Most great illnesses can be made into an art by the cheerful and efficient. >> And most cheer and efficiency can be made into art by great [mental] illness? Jan From halvard Tue May 15 08:12:41 2001 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 08:12:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] FW: Barcelona Review #24 Now On-line Message-ID: Hi, y'all-- Barcelona Review is celebrating its fourth anniversary, and, while I don't often plug websites, this one has a lot of good reading matter salted away in its archives. If you've not read Irvine Welsh, get acquainted by rummaging around in the archives here and finding "Fault on the Line." Work up a Glaswegian accent and read it aloud to someone with a sense of humor. This is also a good place to practice your Spanish and/or Catalan. Hal > -----Original Message----- > From: Jill Adams [mailto:bar_rev at retemail.es] > Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 6:58 AM > Subject: Barcelona Review #24 Now On-line > > > English - espa?ol - catal? > > Dear friends and subscribers, > > Issue 24, marking TBR?s fourth anniversary issue, is now on-line. We kick off with an extract from James Ellroy?s new > novel, which hits the bookstores this week in the U.S. We also have a profile entitled ?Lunch and Tea with James > Ellroy,? written after we met up with him here in Barcelona where the novel was launched in Spain last month. Our quiz > this issue is on Ellroy as well, so if you?re an aficionado, test your knowledge and maybe win a signed copy of one of his books. > > In translation, we have two stories by Cuban author by Pedro Juan Guti?rrez: ?Buried in Shit? and ?Stars and Losers.? > Guti?rrez writes from the squalid center of today?s Havana where rum, sex and poverty dominate the scene. ?Star and > Losers? opens with the memorable line: ?I like to smell my armpits while I masturbate.? The New York Times compares him > to Jean Genet and Charles Bukowsi ?in the brutality of his honesty.? > > Two new writers this issue - Terry DeHart and Heather Fowler, both from the U.S. - offer humorous, off-beat tales that > won us over. Be sure to have a look. > > We?d also like to bring your attention to the delightfully funny story we featured last year in issue 21 - Alicia Erian?s > ?When Animals Attack.? The story has just come out in the U.S. in her collection _The Brutal Language of Love_ > (Villard), which is getting excellent and well-deserved praise from the critics. If you missed it in issue 21, have a > look now. > > No answers to last issue?s Hemingway Quiz, but many close calls. Check out the answers and find out just who the critic > was that stated: ? . . . The message to women reading [A Farewell to Arms] is simple: the only good woman is a dead one.? > > Be sure to check out four years? worth of TBR fiction in the TBR Archives - authors listed alphabetically, just scroll > down the list and have a look at who?s there. > > Book Reviews on offer as always. And the Links page continues to grow. > > Be sure to send us your comments. We like to get your feedback. > > Hasta la pr?xima, > > Jill Adams > The Barcelona Review -- http://www.barcelonareview.com > ___________________________ > espa?ol > > TBR celebra en este n?mero, con todos sus lectores, su 4? cumplea?os, y quiere hacerlo ofreciendo las mejores lecturas. > > Narrativa: > > ***James Ellroy, Seis de los grandes, Cap?tulo 1: extracto de la ?ltima novela del "perro rabioso" de las letras > norteamericanas, lanzada en espa?ol hace apenas un mes. > ***Pedro Juan Guti?rrez, Aplastado por la mierda y Estrellas y pendejos, dos fragmentos de la vibrante Trilog?a sucia de La Habana > ***Juan Abreu, El masturbador, un relato ya publicado por TBR y recuperado en este n?mero con ocasi?n de la aparici?n de > Garbageland, la ?ltima novela del autor, de la que forma parte > ***C?mo odiamos las despedidas, de Jes?s Llorente, uno de los muchos y muy buenos cuentos que componen el Almanaque > Invasores de Marte > ***Lorena X301, de la poeta, narradora y traductora Amparo Arr?spide, agridulce retrato de una criada-robot con > sentimientos muy humanos, y su "malvada" se?ora > ***Matt Marinovich, Proyecci?n de diapositivas, con traducci?n de Ana Alcaina, un cuento recuperado de nuestro n? 13, > ahora en la nueva versi?n flash > > Poes?a: > > *** Dos poetas luxemburgueses: Anise Koltz y Jean Portante, en versi?n biling?e y traducci?n de Jos? M? Gonz?lez Holguera > ***Delirium tremens (fragemntos), de Leo Zelada, poeta peruano > ***Tres poemas, de Lola M?ndez > > Art?culos: > > Pr?logo al Almanaque Invasores de Marte, por Javier Calvo > > Entrevistas: > > ***James Ellroy, realizada en Madrid por sus traductores Montse Gurgu? y Hern?n Sabat? > ***Juan Abreu, por Daniel Attala > > Quiz: > > ***James Ellroy, preparado por M. Gurgu? > > Rese?as: > > ***Seis de los grandes, de J. Ellroy, por Fabio Vericat > ***Garbageland, de Juan Abreu, por Julieta Lionetti > > Arte: > ***Reproducciones de obra de la artista catalana Sabala, con un texto de Mercedes Abad. > > Nota: > ***Asociaci?n Amigos y Amigas de las Bibliotecas de Barcelona > > Daniel Naj?mas, editor > http://www.barcelonareview.com/cas > ___________________________ > catal? > > Benvolguts subscriptors i amics, > Destaquem en aquest n?mero 24 de la versi? catalana de la Barcelona Review el reportatge po?tico-gr?fic de Victor Sunyol > i Marina Sans sobre el Raval, aix? com la mostra d'obra pict?rica de Sabala. A la secci? de narrativa hi trobareu dos > fragments de Bestiari de Mart? Dom?nguez i un conte de Pinckney Benedict, amb una ressenya de cadascun d'aquests dos > llibres; com tamb? el conte sobre LLum An?mat d'Ester Xargay i la reflexi? parapar?mica de Carles Hac Mor. Melcion Mateu > ens fa una recomanaci? de traductor de l'?ltima novel?la de Michael Ondatjee. A la secci? po?tica, a m?s de 5 poemes de > Ramon Farr?s, i de la > col?laboraci? de Sergi Jover, recomanem algunes activitats de la Setmana de > Poesia de Barcelona que tindr? lloc del 18 al 25 de maig, i us oferim en prim?cia un poema de Dorothy Porter i un altre > de Lionel G. Fogarty. Esperem que us agradi, i agra?rem tota mena de suggeriments. > Una salutaci? cordial. > Dolors Udina, editora > The Barcelona Review -- http://www.barcelonareview.com/cat > From JforJames Tue May 15 10:15:48 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 10:15:48 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] TWO POEMS ON SOLITUDE Message-ID: <97.1550cfe4.28329414@aol.com> From: webmaster at randomhouse.com Reply-to: knopfwebmaster at randomhouse.com TWO POEMS ON SOLITUDE by Daniel Halpern and Jack Gilbert +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ from SOMETHING SHINING, by Daniel Halpern Daughter & Chair It's a sunny day in the middle of the year, My daughter in a new white dress suns herself in a very bright green beach chair. She's too young to sit there for long, just long enough to pursue a dream, a single longing: a sweet, a new toy. The sun is steady, late afternoon. She's an only child and we worry she's lonely, even when dressed up and dreaming. If we ask her she pretends not to hear and pulls at her reddish hair, looking off. If we ask again she'll say, Yes, lonesome. There's only the one sun and it shines in her eyes. Copyright (c) 1999 by Daniel Halpern +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From JforJames Tue May 15 12:21:11 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 12:21:11 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] sonnet contest Message-ID: ANNUAL HOWARD NEMEROV SONNET AWARD The Formalist: A Journal of Medical Poetry 320 Hunter Drive Evansville, IN 47711 Annual contest for an unpublished sonnet to encourage poetic craftsmanship and to honor the memory of the late Howard Nemerov, third US Poet Laureate. Entries: Accepts original and unpublished sonnets. Sonnet sequences are acceptable, but each sonnet will be considered individually. Author's name, address and phone number should be typed on the back of the entry. Contact: Mona Baer. Acquires first North American serial rights for those sonnets chosen for publication. Upon publication all rights revert to the author. Open to the international community of writers. Deadline: June 15. Winners will be notified by Sept. Include SASE for notification. Fees: $3/sonnet. Prizes: The winner receives $1,000. The winning poem and 11 finalists will be published in the Fall/Winter 2001 issue of The Formalist. --- From gmcvay Tue May 15 13:43:33 2001 From: gmcvay (Gwyn McVay) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 13:43:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] sonnet contest In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>>The Formalist: A Journal of Medical Poetry 320 Hunter Drive ^^^^^^^ Evansville, IN 47711 Calling Dr. Gioia! Dr. Steele! Dr. Gioia! From moira_russell Tue May 15 14:06:55 2001 From: moira_russell (Moira Russell) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 10:06:55 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] sonnet contest Message-ID: You say med-i-cal, I say met-ri-cal -- A sonnet! -- A lancet! -- A tisket! -- A tasket! Let's call the whole competition off! Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From JforJames Tue May 15 14:54:00 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 14:54:00 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] English and Irish Poetry Message-ID: > I heartily recommend Keith Tuma's Fishing by Obstinate Isles: Modern and > Postmodern British Poetry and American Readers (Northwestern, 1998), which > both offers a thorough historical recounting of the phenomenon and helps > redress it via some exemplary readings of specific poets Alan, thanks for the tip...I'll track down a copy. Tho right now I seem to building a sturdy fortress wall of unread book at my bedside. Jim Finnegan From JforJames Tue May 15 14:57:50 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 14:57:50 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry From Scotland / The Jewel Box Message-ID: <26.155e4d17.2832d62e@aol.com> The Jewel Box http://www.spl.org.uk/projects/FrameTopProjects.htm Contemporary Scottish Poetry on CD The Jewel Box is a new collection of contemporary Scottish poetry, published on audio CD by the Scottish Poetry Library. It features recordings from some of Scotland's most distinguished and innovative poets, of all ages and backgrounds, writing in English, Scots and Gaelic. The collection offers an exciting opportunity to hear the poets reading their own work. As Tom Pow, one of the contributors, comments: ?I remember the excitement I felt the first time I heard Dylan Thomas read his own poems on a scratchy old record and how rare it was then to hear the poet's voice. So I think it's wonderful that all these Scottish voices should be gathered on one CD - an event both celebratory and historic.? Find out more about The Jewel Box project by reading the preface to the CD booklet, written by the editors, Ken Cockburn and Alec Finlay. See also Alec Finlay's speech written for the launch of The Jewel Box. The CD contents are listed here. (Contributions marked with the symbol can be downloaded free of charge.) McCarey, Peter When it starts... Smith, Iain Crichton Putting out the Ashes Lipton, Douglas from The Flora & Fauna of an Independent Scotland Riddell, Alan The honey pot Herbert, W.N. Corbandie Pow, Tom The Father De Luca, Christine Gyaain fur da Mylk Paisley, Janet Whist & Syrup of Figs Friel, Raymond May 1967 Paterson, Don Heliographer Burns, Elizabeth Sisters McCarey, Peter Was it you that... Fraser, Bashabi Do'Care Ransford, Tessa To My Son Going Abroad McCabe, Brian It Gillies, Valerie Maeve in Manhattan McCarey, Peter Double-click... Morgan, Edwin Transclusion Price, Richard Club mix Murray, Elspeth Flip Flotsam McCarey, Peter Herself as fickle... Whyte, Christopher An Daolag Shionach / The Chinese Beetle Turnbull, Gael There are words Thomson, Derick Da Chanan / Two Languages MacNeacail, Aonghas forladh dhachaigh/home vacation MacNeill, Kevin Young Chinese and Scottish McCarey, Peter The waters thaw... O'Rourke, Donny Great Western Road Jamie, Kathleen Lucky Bag Crawford, Robert The Result Gorman, Rody Naidheachd / News Clanchy, Kate Poem for a man with no sense of smell Bateman, Meg Aotromachd / Lightness Stephen, Ian Providence Bruce, George Herbour Wa, Macduff Leonard, Tom to have access to the silence Fitt, Matthew Jim Leighton McCarey, Peter You've got fifteen seconds... Riach, Alan A short introduction to my Uncle Glen MacLeod, Anne Voices on Water Daiches, Jenni Rain at Brackley Burnside, John Burning a Woman Clark, Thomas A. Twenty Blessings McCarey, Peter I've sung in... The Jewel Box recordings were made during the summer and autumn of 1999 and the CD was released in January 2000. The CD, together with an accompanying booklet, is now on sale priced ?8.99 at the Scottish Poetry Library, at bookshops throughout Scotland, and online via James Thin Booksellers ISBN number 0 9532235 1 5. The Jewel Box project is funded by the Scottish Arts Council National Lottery, from its Millennium Arts Festival Fund. A second strand of the initiative is a series of poetry festivals throughout Scotland during 2000. For any further information about The Jewel Box, please just get in touch: inquiries at spl.org.uk From paul.lake Tue May 15 03:59:30 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 02:59:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Scottish poetry Message-ID: There's a relatively new magazine called *Dark Horse," published in Scotland and edited by Gerry Cambridge, that also includes a lot of work by American poets. If you don't know the magazine, you might want to check it out. Paul Lake From Ben_Friedlander Wed May 16 08:49:44 2001 From: Ben_Friedlander (Ben Friedlander) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 08:49:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] contemporary autobiographical lyric Message-ID: I remember that there was a question on this list as to just what constitutes the "contemporary autobiographical lyric." I'm reading a book now that supplies an answer: Carl Dennis, _Poetry as Persuasion_ (University of Georgia Press, 2001). The book is written with unfailing clarity and exemplary generosity, though many will take issue with its account (I know I do). The stated subject is poetry "spoken in the first person by an 'I' in not always easy to distinguish from the writer, the kind of poem most commonly written today," and this is the underlying thesis: For a poem to be convincing, the primary task of the writer is to construct a speaker whose company is worth keeping, who exhibits certain virtues that win the reader's sympathetic attention. Dennis offers his book, in part, as a guide for aspiring writers, and this, I think, makes him more conservative than he'd be if writing for readers alone. He wants young poets to learn their art's basic craft (as he defines it, of course), and is thus disinclined to linger over poems where the "basics" are called into question. I probably wouldn't be reading this book if I hadn't made a friendly acquaintance with Dennis in Buffalo (a "sympathetic attention" that supports his argument, I suppose), but I'm glad I am. I agree with his conclusions much more than I would have imagined, and my disagreements are helping me sharpen my own understanding of what matters. Also, he offers the only close reading of "The Day Lady Died" that I've ever seen that actually deepens my understanding of what the poem is doing! Ben Friedlander From Edward.Byrne Wed May 16 10:56:33 2001 From: Edward.Byrne (Edward Byrne) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 09:56:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] contemporary autobiographical lyric In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I look forward to reading _Poetry as Persuasion_. It sounds as if Dennis is presenting a thesis similar to that in Jonathan Holden's latest book of criticism, _The Old Formalism: Character in Contemporary American Poetry_ (University of Arkansas Press, 1999), which I have found contains clarity and much common sense. The back jacket summary of Holden's book suggests the folowing: "Our appreciation of American poetry is as influenced by the personae presented in the poems as by public perception of the poets themselves." --Edward Byrne > I remember that there was a question on this list as to just what > constitutes the "contemporary autobiographical lyric." I'm reading a > book now that supplies an answer: Carl Dennis, _Poetry as Persuasion_ > (University of Georgia Press, 2001). The book is written with > unfailing clarity and exemplary generosity, though many will take issue > with its account (I know I do). The stated subject is poetry "spoken in > the first person by an 'I' in not always easy to distinguish from the > writer, the kind of poem most commonly written today," and this is the > underlying thesis: > > For a poem to be convincing, the primary task of the writer is to > construct a speaker whose company is worth keeping, who > exhibits certain virtues that win the reader's sympathetic > attention. > > Dennis offers his book, in part, as a guide for aspiring writers, and > this, I think, makes him more conservative than he'd be if writing for > readers alone. He wants young poets to learn their art's basic craft (as > he defines it, of course), and is thus disinclined to linger over poems > where the "basics" are called into question. > > I probably wouldn't be reading this book if I hadn't made a friendly > acquaintance with Dennis in Buffalo (a "sympathetic attention" that > supports his argument, I suppose), but I'm glad I am. I agree with his > conclusions much more than I would have imagined, and my disagreements > are helping me sharpen my own understanding of what matters. Also, he > offers the only close reading of "The Day Lady Died" that I've ever > seen that actually deepens my understanding of what the poem is doing! > > Ben Friedlander -------------------------------------------------- Edward Byrne Department of English 322 Huegli Hall Valparaiso University Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/ Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/ Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 Fax: (219) 464-5511 -------------------------------------------------- From jdavis Wed May 16 11:40:55 2001 From: jdavis (Jordan Davis) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 11:40:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] synthetic good guy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > person by an 'I' in not always easy to distinguish from the writer, the > kind of poem most commonly written today," and this is the underlying > thesis: > > For a poem to be convincing, the primary task of the writer is to > construct a speaker whose company is worth keeping, who > exhibits certain virtues that win the reader's sympathetic attention. > Ben - That's fine, but there's a corollary; the primary task of the reader is to hold ingratiating speakers of poems at bay until it can be determined just what these speakers are up to, and whether it's safe to sing along. Jordan From cstroffo Wed May 16 12:03:44 2001 From: cstroffo (chris stroffolino) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 12:03:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] synthetic good guy References: Message-ID: <3B02A4E0.35F978CA@earthlink.net> Really Jordan? What is this fear of being contaminated by ingratiating speakers? What is this desire for "safety" as primary when reading another? And if one only sings along when one feels safe, won't we have the kind of synthetic, boring (think 'N Synch) songs that make the first Bush years seem liberal by comparison? Chris Jordan Davis wrote: > > person by an 'I' in not always easy to distinguish from the writer, the > > kind of poem most commonly written today," and this is the underlying > > thesis: > > > > For a poem to be convincing, the primary task of the writer is to > > construct a speaker whose company is worth keeping, who > > exhibits certain virtues that win the reader's sympathetic attention. > > > > Ben - > > That's fine, but there's a corollary; the primary task of the reader is to > hold ingratiating speakers of poems at bay until it can be determined just > what these speakers are up to, and whether it's safe to sing along. > > Jordan > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd Wed May 16 13:02:43 2001 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 12:02:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] synthetic good guy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Ben - > >That's fine, but there's a corollary; the primary task of the reader is to >hold ingratiating speakers of poems at bay until it can be determined just >what these speakers are up to, and whether it's safe to sing along. > >Jordan > Jordan Davis's point is elaborated and complicated in a lovely essay by Sydney Lea, "Making A Case: Or, 'Where Are You Coming From?' ". Available in the Pack/Parini anthology *Writers On Writing* as well as in a certain forthcoming essay anthology on autobiographical poetics that I have plugged here too many times already. . . . Lea is a long-time advocate of Jonathan Holden's rhetorical brand of criticism, as mentioned by Edward Byrne. In his "Making A Case" essay he particularly speaks up for the poet's right to argue, to tell and not just show. And he recognizes that even in a meditative poem, a poet is presenting a speaker whose authority we are right to interrogate. Here are a few excerpts from Lea's essay: +++++++++++++++ In the late seventies, I read an essay by Brendan Galvin on poems he called "Mumblings" (in Ploughshares, 1978). In such poems, Galvin says, an unidentified first person "tries to tell the reader how he ought to feel about the nonspecific predicament of an often unspecified person." Yes, I thought, or else the poet addresses an unidentified second person about the cloudy difficulties of his or her relationship with that second person, or yet a third (also unidentified). I, too, disliked the verse Galvin attacked, especially for its evident premise: that a Poet, by assuming that title, could automatically lay claim to an interesting inner life. Surely, I believed, an "I" was interesting only if proved to be, which meant among other things that he or she must cogently reveal an identity in the writing itself. My recourse was rash. Goaded by my friends and collaborators Jay Parini and Robin Barone, I founded a magazine, the New England Review. Its poetry, we vowed, would operate from more accessible premises. "Pronouns are not people"-I recall my cautionary dictum on certain early rejections, one that unquestionably smacked of the tyro's glibness, but whose gist I still approve. Not that all seventies poets "mumbled" in the way Galvin had mocked. Some relied on image, whether deep or shallow, plain or surreal. And yet these writers, too, seemed often to exclude me from their work's deeper resonances-just as I was expecting some authorial commitment, a poet would turn to notice, say, a pigeon carrying a snip of someone's necktie through a raincloud, or whatever. Subject matter, so to speak, never quite came out in public. +++++++++++++++ I've recently wondered why-having once stumped so for narrative- I want now, both as writer and critic, to move on. It isn't only that I'd avoid repeating Edmund Wilson's error, as the more doctrinaire exponents of the New Narrative may be doing; more important, my inclination to narrative was always of greater moment to me than story line itself. If it served to brake my own narcissism (as pronounced as anyone's), it also provided a more positive, and more intriguing impulse: narrative opened my poems up to rhetoric, by which I, like Jonathan Holden in his Rhetoric of the Contemporary Lyric, mean the language of persuasion-and hence of argument, of testimony, even of the abstraction that Ezra the Ur-Imagist warned us to go in fear of. (I speak of immediately recognizable stuff, not of the rhetorical gestures that I think all good poems contain.) But why was rhetoric, so understood, a goal at all? Having as editor and writer not only lectured but also visited many a "workshop," I had noticed, in addition to (and continuous with) "mumbling," a kind of anti-rhetorical rhetoric among participants: "Show, Don't Tell." Over and over I heard it; and at length I bridled, thankful that most canonical poets had never heeded such an injunction. +++++++++++++++ In any event, I suspect that every access to authoritative point of view will lead, as each has with Keats, into considerations of voice. And yet voice can be established, too, in countless ways: by the things or images a poem talks about ("To Autumn"); by its grammar or syntax; by exploitation of structure ("Ode on a Grecian Urn" could be studied from this angle and all the others), including responses, obedient or rebellious, to received formal structures (like the sonnet, with its promise of high seriousness, the villanelle, which implies obsession, or the couplet, boding a yen for aphorism), and so on. But vocal authority, however accomplished, is essential. Pronouns are not people. If, having composed a draft of a lyric, we ask ourselves "Who says so?" we must have a more compelling answer than naked "I." +++++++++++++++ I've disemboweled the essay, I'm afraid--the core of which is concerned with some close reading of Keats--but perhaps these excerpts will spark some further reflection. David Graham ----------------------------------------- >> person by an 'I' in not always easy to distinguish from the writer, the >> kind of poem most commonly written today," and this is the underlying >> thesis: >> >> For a poem to be convincing, the primary task of the writer is to >> construct a speaker whose company is worth keeping, who >> exhibits certain virtues that win the reader's sympathetic attention. >> > >Ben - > >That's fine, but there's a corollary; the primary task of the reader is to >hold ingratiating speakers of poems at bay until it can be determined just >what these speakers are up to, and whether it's safe to sing along. > >Jordan > __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From jdavis Wed May 16 14:12:51 2001 From: jdavis (Jordan Davis) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 14:12:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] spontaneity under laws / laws only acts of social magic In-Reply-To: <3B02A4E0.35F978CA@earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 May 2001, chris wrote: > Really Jordan? Yep. I'm skeptical that there are ideal readers out there who'll give an even break to every text coming down the pike. That doesn't mean we have to have non-stop guerrilla poetry wars, of course. Nor does it mean that every poem has to be contaminated (your word) by admixture of sincerity and irony. Maybe it's the Bourdieu I'm using to screen out my fellow passengers on the A train, but I thought I was just recasting "The price of freedom is eternal et cetera." Maybe you're objecting to the social aspects of this, maybe you're non-plussed by the tentativity of it. Who can tell. As for the safety part, I know I have different feelings about singing along with, say, "No Fun," "In Bloom", and "Jeremy." [Forgive me for substituting punk-ish music for poetry in this discussion. I'd give three examples from contemporary poetry if I thought there was enough of a common horizon for my (anybody's) examples. Does it take nerve to call a Pearl Jam a Pearl Jam, wrt to the poetry scene?] Jordan From aprentiss Wed May 16 14:17:08 2001 From: aprentiss (Amber Prentiss) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 14:17:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] synthetic good guy Message-ID: I'm confused. I'll try to distill this into what I think this argument says, so hold on: 'I' poems often derail themselves, and the reader is left floundering with no idea who this 'I' is or what part of the story you're in for this nebulous speaker who never explains why this particular moment is supposed to be interesting. This is annoying. Got that part. Then there's the part about "Show, not tell." I always took this to say "Let the reader figure it out," not "Don't tell any stories." Use better images and all that. But in this sense, he seems to say that people have used that to keep a poem from showing any opinions. I think. Sorta got that part. Then, there's the whole argument thing. Who (poet, speaker?) is supposed to be arguing what (I'm a nice guy; eat your veggies; drunks have lots of fun) for whom? I'm confused. Any help? -Amber -----Original Message----- From: David Graham To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 5/16/2001 1:02 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] synthetic good guy >Ben - > >That's fine, but there's a corollary; the primary task of the reader is to >hold ingratiating speakers of poems at bay until it can be determined just >what these speakers are up to, and whether it's safe to sing along. > >Jordan > Jordan Davis's point is elaborated and complicated in a lovely essay by Sydney Lea, "Making A Case: Or, 'Where Are You Coming From?' ". Available in the Pack/Parini anthology *Writers On Writing* as well as in a certain forthcoming essay anthology on autobiographical poetics that I have plugged here too many times already. . . . Lea is a long-time advocate of Jonathan Holden's rhetorical brand of criticism, as mentioned by Edward Byrne. In his "Making A Case" essay he particularly speaks up for the poet's right to argue, to tell and not just show. And he recognizes that even in a meditative poem, a poet is presenting a speaker whose authority we are right to interrogate. Here are a few excerpts from Lea's essay: +++++++++++++++ In the late seventies, I read an essay by Brendan Galvin on poems he called "Mumblings" (in Ploughshares, 1978). In such poems, Galvin says, an unidentified first person "tries to tell the reader how he ought to feel about the nonspecific predicament of an often unspecified person." Yes, I thought, or else the poet addresses an unidentified second person about the cloudy difficulties of his or her relationship with that second person, or yet a third (also unidentified). I, too, disliked the verse Galvin attacked, especially for its evident premise: that a Poet, by assuming that title, could automatically lay claim to an interesting inner life. Surely, I believed, an "I" was interesting only if proved to be, which meant among other things that he or she must cogently reveal an identity in the writing itself. My recourse was rash. Goaded by my friends and collaborators Jay Parini and Robin Barone, I founded a magazine, the New England Review. Its poetry, we vowed, would operate from more accessible premises. "Pronouns are not people"-I recall my cautionary dictum on certain early rejections, one that unquestionably smacked of the tyro's glibness, but whose gist I still approve. Not that all seventies poets "mumbled" in the way Galvin had mocked. Some relied on image, whether deep or shallow, plain or surreal. And yet these writers, too, seemed often to exclude me from their work's deeper resonances-just as I was expecting some authorial commitment, a poet would turn to notice, say, a pigeon carrying a snip of someone's necktie through a raincloud, or whatever. Subject matter, so to speak, never quite came out in public. +++++++++++++++ I've recently wondered why-having once stumped so for narrative- I want now, both as writer and critic, to move on. It isn't only that I'd avoid repeating Edmund Wilson's error, as the more doctrinaire exponents of the New Narrative may be doing; more important, my inclination to narrative was always of greater moment to me than story line itself. If it served to brake my own narcissism (as pronounced as anyone's), it also provided a more positive, and more intriguing impulse: narrative opened my poems up to rhetoric, by which I, like Jonathan Holden in his Rhetoric of the Contemporary Lyric, mean the language of persuasion-and hence of argument, of testimony, even of the abstraction that Ezra the Ur-Imagist warned us to go in fear of. (I speak of immediately recognizable stuff, not of the rhetorical gestures that I think all good poems contain.) But why was rhetoric, so understood, a goal at all? Having as editor and writer not only lectured but also visited many a "workshop," I had noticed, in addition to (and continuous with) "mumbling," a kind of anti-rhetorical rhetoric among participants: "Show, Don't Tell." Over and over I heard it; and at length I bridled, thankful that most canonical poets had never heeded such an injunction. +++++++++++++++ In any event, I suspect that every access to authoritative point of view will lead, as each has with Keats, into considerations of voice. And yet voice can be established, too, in countless ways: by the things or images a poem talks about ("To Autumn"); by its grammar or syntax; by exploitation of structure ("Ode on a Grecian Urn" could be studied from this angle and all the others), including responses, obedient or rebellious, to received formal structures (like the sonnet, with its promise of high seriousness, the villanelle, which implies obsession, or the couplet, boding a yen for aphorism), and so on. But vocal authority, however accomplished, is essential. Pronouns are not people. If, having composed a draft of a lyric, we ask ourselves "Who says so?" we must have a more compelling answer than naked "I." +++++++++++++++ I've disemboweled the essay, I'm afraid--the core of which is concerned with some close reading of Keats--but perhaps these excerpts will spark some further reflection. David Graham ----------------------------------------- >> person by an 'I' in not always easy to distinguish from the writer, the >> kind of poem most commonly written today," and this is the underlying >> thesis: >> >> For a poem to be convincing, the primary task of the writer is to >> construct a speaker whose company is worth keeping, who >> exhibits certain virtues that win the reader's sympathetic attention. >> > >Ben - > >That's fine, but there's a corollary; the primary task of the reader is to >hold ingratiating speakers of poems at bay until it can be determined just >what these speakers are up to, and whether it's safe to sing along. > >Jordan > __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From eselinge Wed May 16 15:03:33 2001 From: eselinge (Eric Selinger) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 14:03:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Multiculti Poetry Message-ID: Thanks to everyone for your suggestions about texts for my multi-cultural poetry class. In the end, with the book order deadline already past, I've simply copped out: I'm teaching the class as a multi-culti LITERATURE class, which is actually what most students are expecting. We'll have some drama (Angels in America, both parts), we'll have some fiction, and we'll have a nice long poetry unit walking through the history of African American poetry, using the Michael Harper Vintage Book thereof, plus some handouts. (More Hayden, some Mullen--supplementary readings in prose by some of the other poets.) Not as ambitious a course as I'd planned, but hey, it's summer school. EMS From cstroffo Wed May 16 15:19:07 2001 From: cstroffo (chris stroffolino) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 15:19:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] spontaneity under laws / laws only acts of social magic References: Message-ID: <3B02D2AC.5D775BE8@earthlink.net> Jordan-- I guess I just objected to "primary task," to me there's--in reading a a kind of (unwilled) ceding of authority to the poem that happens first and then, after my pre-existing sense of self has been exploded by what I read (even if I felt I totally "agree" with it), then, I may be compelled to analyze either what the speaker is "up to" or i may be just "sing along" (this is not just the difference between writing a "review" or a "close reading" on one hand and writing my own poem on the other). But I don't want to be dogmatic about it---obvously, sometimes I do find I "keep at bay" certain poems or certain speakers, and initially approach them skeptically, and in these cases the process may involve a triumph over such skepticism. Yet other times, the skepticism comes second, after the mesh-blur of identities that may occur to a porous one such as sometimes-I, like the riddle "when is a reaction not a reaction?" (when it's a reaction against reaction?) So, which of the three do you prefer to sing along (or shoot your gun) to? Ben - > > That's fine, but there's a corollary; the primary task of the reader is to > hold ingratiating speakers of poems at bay until it can be determined just > what these speakers are up to, and whether it's safe to sing along. > > Jordan > > ___________________ Jordan Davis wrote: > On Wed, 16 May 2001, chris wrote: > > > Really Jordan? > > Yep. I'm skeptical that there are ideal readers out there who'll give an > even break to every text coming down the pike. That doesn't mean we have > to have non-stop guerrilla poetry wars, of course. Nor does it mean that > every poem has to be contaminated (your word) by admixture of sincerity > and irony. Maybe it's the Bourdieu I'm using to screen out my fellow > passengers on the A train, but I thought I was just recasting "The price > of freedom is eternal et cetera." > > Maybe you're objecting to the social aspects of this, maybe you're > non-plussed by the tentativity of it. Who can tell. As for the safety > part, I know I have different feelings about singing along with, say, "No > Fun," "In Bloom", and "Jeremy." [Forgive me for substituting punk-ish > music for poetry in this discussion. I'd give three examples from > contemporary poetry if I thought there was enough of a common horizon for > my (anybody's) examples. Does it take nerve to call a Pearl Jam a Pearl > Jam, wrt to the poetry scene?] > > Jordan > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards Wed May 16 18:11:16 2001 From: tadrichards (theoldmole) Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 18:11:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] synthetic good guy References: <3B02A4E0.35F978CA@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000b01c0de55$21600060$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Safety's not a bad thing, within bounds (uh-oh, tautology creeping in). We look for art to take us into danger, to take us places we haven't been, and we look for a guide that we can trust. Someone who doesn't know about anything except his own feelings isn't going to take us anywhere interesting. Someone who can use the first person as one of the portals to the unknown may well be worth spending some time with. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "chris stroffolino" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2001 12:03 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] synthetic good guy > Really Jordan? What is this fear of being contaminated by ingratiating speakers? > > What is this desire for "safety" as primary when reading another? > And if one only sings along when one feels safe, won't we have the kind > of synthetic, boring (think 'N Synch) songs that make the first Bush years > seem liberal by comparison? > > Chris > > Jordan Davis wrote: > > > > person by an 'I' in not always easy to distinguish from the writer, the > > > kind of poem most commonly written today," and this is the underlying > > > thesis: > > > > > > For a poem to be convincing, the primary task of the writer is to > > > construct a speaker whose company is worth keeping, who > > > exhibits certain virtues that win the reader's sympathetic attention. > > > > > > > Ben - > > > > That's fine, but there's a corollary; the primary task of the reader is to > > hold ingratiating speakers of poems at bay until it can be determined just > > what these speakers are up to, and whether it's safe to sing along. > > > > Jordan > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards Thu May 17 10:58:19 2001 From: tadrichards (theoldmole) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 10:58:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fine isolated verisimilitudes References: <3B02A4E0.35F978CA@earthlink.net> <000b01c0de55$21600060$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <001601c0dee2$907473e0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> I'd always assumed that Keats was praising Coleridge for having the courage to let go of a fine isolated verisimilitude. It always seemed to me a crucially important thing for a poet to be able to do -- to refuse to settle for something good isolation, when the full direction of the poem (Hugo's real subject vs triggering subject) may not be clear yet. I took this as an extension of Keats' negative capability -- the ability to be in doubt or uncertainty, to not make up one's mind too soon. Now I discover that most scholars take the opposite view - that Keats was extolling the fine isolated verisimilitude and criticizing Coleridge for letting it go. I continue to admire the courage involved in letting go of a fine isolated verisimilitude. But have I really been so wrong all these years? From grahamd Thu May 17 14:26:07 2001 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 13:26:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pub Plug Message-ID: Just published: *The Breath of Parted Lips: Voices from the Robert Frost Place* (CavanKerry Press). This anthology collects work from writers who have been poets-in-residence at the Frost Place in Franconia, NH over the past 20-plus summers. Introduction by Donald Hall, and notes on contributors by Donald Sheehan. Contributors include Mary Ruefle, Sue Ellen Thompson, Pattiann Rogers, Robert Hass, William Matthews, Stanley Plumly, Sharon Bryan, Sherod Santos, Dennis Johnson, Cleopatra Mathis, Katha Pollit, Kathy Fagan, Mary Jo Salter, Jeffrey Skinner, and myself. The book is available from Amazon, among other places: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0967885620/qid%3D990122439/103-0864517-64 10255 David Graham __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From slundqu Thu May 17 15:43:11 2001 From: slundqu (Sara Lundquist) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 15:43:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman in poetry Message-ID: <003201c0df09$a51f5e50$a050b783@uhe.utoledo.edu> Dear List: I am looking for poems (modern or contemporary) which refer to Walt Whitman by name (or at least where it's clear he or his work is being referred to). So far I have Creeley, Duncan, Ginsberg, Hughes, Olds, Neruda, Pound, Roethke. Backchannel me? Thanks: Sara Lundquist Associate Professor English Department University of Toledo Toledo, OH 43606 (419) 530-2506 Fax: (419) 530-4440 sara_lundquist at utoledo.edu From paul.lake Thu May 17 04:37:07 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 03:37:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman in poetry In-Reply-To: <003201c0df09$a51f5e50$a050b783@uhe.utoledo.edu> Message-ID: on 5/17/01 2:43 PM, Sara Lundquist at slundqu at uoft02.utoledo.edu wrote: > Dear List: > I am looking for poems (modern or contemporary) which refer to Walt Whitman > by name (or at least where it's clear he or his work is being referred to). > So far I have Creeley, Duncan, Ginsberg, Hughes, Olds, Neruda, Pound, > Roethke. Backchannel me? > Thanks: > Sara Lundquist > Associate Professor > English Department > University of Toledo > Toledo, OH 43606 > (419) 530-2506 > Fax: (419) 530-4440 > sara_lundquist at utoledo.edu > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > There's a poem by Stevens, whose title eludes me. Easy to find, though. Someone will provide title. Paul Lake From paul.lake Thu May 17 04:54:59 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 03:54:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman, Stevens Message-ID: The title just came to me. Stevens talks about Whitman in his infamously titled "Like Decorations in a Nigger Cemetery." Paul Lake From grahamd Thu May 17 17:27:21 2001 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 16:27:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman in poetry In-Reply-To: <003201c0df09$a51f5e50$a050b783@uhe.utoledo.edu> Message-ID: This may be of more general interest, so I'm not back channeling. A wonderful anthology is *Walt Whitman : The Measure of His Song*, ed. Jim Perlman, Ed Folsom, Dan Campion (Holy Cow Press, 1999). Here's the blurb from Amazon: First published to wide critical acclaim in 1981, this revised and expanded monumental anthology charts the ongoing American and international response to the legacy of the seminal poet Walt Whitman (1819-1892). Beginning with Ralph Waldo Emerson's famous 1855 letter ("I greet you at the beginning of a great career..."), this new edition contains responses from Thoreau, Pound, Lawrence, Neruda, Borges, Ginsberg, Jordan, Duncan, Le Sueur, Rich, Snyder and Alexie, among many others. "I know of no more convincing proof of Walt Whitman's impact upon the poetic mind (both at home and abroad) than this collection of tributes by poets -- in prose and verse" -- Gay Wilson Allen, THE SOLITARY SINGER. Includes 17 black & white photos. ___________________ I own the first edition, which is lovely. Poems included by David Ignatow, Jonathan Williams, Hart Crane, Garcia Lorca, Edwin Markham, John Berryman, Denise Levertov, Derek Walcott, Charles Olson, Judith Moffett, Thomas McGrath, Larry Levis, & others. A very fine bibliography as well. David Graham >Dear List: >I am looking for poems (modern or contemporary) which refer to Walt Whitman >by name (or at least where it's clear he or his work is being referred to). >So far I have Creeley, Duncan, Ginsberg, Hughes, Olds, Neruda, Pound, >Roethke. Backchannel me? >Thanks: >Sara Lundquist __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From MillB Thu May 17 17:37:13 2001 From: MillB (MillB at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 17:37:13 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman in poetry Message-ID: Greetings: Ok--so now I'm hooked and stumped. . .like a television jungle for laundry soap that you cannot get rid of. . .since I read the first of this posting thread. . .my mind's been on, "I think of you, tonight, Walt Whitman. .. or "My thoughts turn to you, Walt Whitman." Will someone please pu me out of my misery and. . .name the poem that has that line in it??? I just KNOW it's something obvious that II'll kick myself about later. . . Argh. Mill From grahamd Thu May 17 17:45:05 2001 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 16:45:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman in poetry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: A SUPERMARKET IN CALIFORNIA --Allen Ginsberg What thoughts I have of you tonight, Walt Whit- man, for I walked down the sidestreets under the trees with a headache self-conscious looking at the full moon. In my hungry fatigue, and shopping for images, I went into the neon fruit supermarket, dreaming of your enumerations! What peaches and what penumbras! Whole fam- ilies shopping at night! Aisles full of husbands! Wives in the avocados, babies in the tomatoes!--and you, Garcia Lorca, what were you doing down by the watermelons? I saw you, Walt Whitman, childless, lonely old grubber, poking among the meats in the refrigerator and eyeing the grocery boys. I heard you asking questions of each: Who killed the pork chops? What price bananas? Are you my Angel? I wandered in and out of the brilliant stacks of cans following you, and followed in my imagination by the store detective. We strode down the open corridors together in our solitary fancy tasting artichokes, possessing every frozen delicacy, and never passing the cashier. Where are we going, Walt Whitman? The doors close in an hour. Which way does your beard point tonight? (I touch your book and dream of our odyssey in the supermarket and feel absurd.) Will we walk all night through solitary streets? The trees add shade to shade, lights out in the houses, we'll both be lonely. Will we stroll dreaming ofthe lost America of love past blue automobiles in driveways, home to our silent cottage? Ah, dear father, graybeard, lonely old courage- teacher, what America did you have when Charon quit poling his ferry and you got out on a smoking bank and stood watching the boat disappear on the black waters of Lethe? Berkeley 1955 >Greetings: > >Ok--so now I'm hooked and stumped. . .like a television jungle for laundry >soap that you cannot get rid of. . .since I read the first of this posting >thread. . .my mind's been on, "I think of you, tonight, Walt Whitman. .. or >"My thoughts turn to you, Walt Whitman." Will someone please pu me out of my >misery and. . .name the poem that has that line in it??? > >I just KNOW it's something obvious that II'll kick myself about later. . . > >Argh. > >Mill >_______________________________________________ __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From Jandhodge Thu May 17 20:00:06 2001 From: Jandhodge (Jandhodge at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 20:00:06 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman in poetry Message-ID: <18.cfd25c3.2835c006@aol.com> << I am looking for poems (modern or contemporary) which refer to Walt Whitman by name (or at least where it's clear he or his work is being referred to). >> The title poem in Philip Dacey's wonderfully imaginative poetic study of G. M. Hopkins, "Gerard Manley Hopkins Meets Walt Whitman in Heaven and Other Poems" [Penmaen Press, 1986]. Jan From JforJames Fri May 18 09:24:56 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 09:24:56 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Pattiann Rogers poem Message-ID: THE COMPASSION OF THE IRIS Compassion, if it could be seen, might look Like an early blossom of iris, Something like an uplands flower on a wooded Morning, five purple suns visible on its petals As five points of a shallow dawn. If compassion appeared as an iris It would be possible to trace the actual outline Of its arched and crested edges, to describe The crucial motivation coming at the juncture Of its yellow-ridged sepals, to examine The significance in the structure of white veins Covering its calyx, to discover, by touch, The hidden meat of the bulb from which the origin Of its concept must first have arisen. And maybe the benevolence inherent to ordinary Purple-streaked flowers could be understood As they cover, without intrusion, the lowest rim Of evening, when they draw their violet lines As carefully as dusk draws time above the dusty floor Of the pine barrens. Corms and stems, Lobes and basal clusters might be Recognized as the subtlest, most crucial Tenderness of the soil. And it might be possible to imagine how the bond Creating the central fact of compassion is exactly The same fact binding a gene of violet In the ovary of the iris, how compassion Possesses the same grip on its own form As the perfumed rhizome maintains On the tight molecule of its scent. And what astonishing union is it that takes place On the day when compassion is offered as a gift In the form of spring iris gathered from the field? One might wonder if the iris Should be studied meticulously in order to reveal The intricacies of compassion, Or whether one should act compassionately In order to fully perceive the peculiarities Of that extraordinary blue-violet flower. PATTIANN ROGERS ------------------------ Copyright (c) 2001 Pattiann Rogers. From "Song of the World Becoming: New and Collected Poems, 1981-2001, just published by Milkweed Editions (http://www.milkweed.org). To read more poems by Pattiann Rogers, visit http://www.milkweed.org/3_3_7.html From JforJames Fri May 18 09:32:22 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 09:32:22 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcing Jacket # 13 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 12:18:11 -0700 From: John Tranter Subject: Announcing Jacket # 13 The current issue of Jacket ( # 13 ) is now complete, and awaits your=20 perusal, at http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/jacket13/ THIS ISSUE of Jacket is a co-production with New American Writing magazine,= =20 and as well as appearing on the Internet as Jacket 13, it is published in=20 print form as New American Writing number 19, clocking in at 186 pages. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The featured poet in this special Jacket co-production issue is Clark=20 Coolidge: Clark Coolidge: ten poems Tom Orange: An Interview with Clark Coolidge Tom Orange: Arrangement and Density: A Context for Early Clark Coolidge Alan Halsey: From a Diary of Reading Clark Coolidge Michael Gizzi: XIV: In the Namewakes (for Clark Coolidge) As well as Fiction: Linh Dinh: Our Newlyweds Journal: Mark McMorris: Journals from The Caf=E9 at Light (A Selection) And poems from thirty-five contributors: Jeanne Marie Beaumont: Skill (A.M.) Frances Padorr Brent: Porcelain Blue Boat Leonard Brink: A.Q. Avery Burns: From =C6thers Barbara Campbell: Parable for a Marriage Long Sought Diane Di Prima: Sonnet Sequence Jocelyn Emerson: The Conflagration Clayton Eshleman on Henry Darger Phillip Foss: Strung Drew Gardner: From Water Table Karen Garthe: Victorian Reading Bob Harrison: Rock Hard Pins Charles O. Hartman: From Tambourine Kelly Holt: From Study for the Other Paul Hoover: Sixteen Jackies Michael Ives: two poems Susen James: Filter Devin Johnston: two poems John Kinsella: Fog and Linnets Philip Kobylarz: Preen John Latta: two poems Lisa Lubasch: Vicinities Maureen McLane: two poems M=F6ng-Lan: Three-Auricled Heart Geoffrey O=92Brien: Impressions: 1929 Peter O=92Leary: With More Passionate Flying Greg Purcell: =93Let Me Break One Off-Some and Enter Up-In to This Joint...= =94 Martha Ronk: three poems Lisa Samuels: two poems Spencer Selby: Bargain Kerri Sonnenberg: three poems Cole Swensen: four poems Barbara Tomash: Nude in the Bath Terence Winch: two poems Andrew Zawacki: From Masquerade >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Founded in 1986, New American Writing is a literary magazine emphasizing=20 contemporary American poetry. Edited by Paul Hoover, poet and editor of=20 "Postmodern American Poetry" (W. W. Norton, 1994), and Maxine Chernoff,=20 poet and author of the works of fiction "Bop" and "American Heaven", it=20 appears once a year in early June from 369 Molino Avenue, Mill Valley CA=20 94941, USA. You can visit Maxine Chernoff's homepage at=20 http://www.previewport.com/Home/chernoff.html Contributors have included John Ashbery, Robert Creeley, Charles Simic,=20 Jorie Graham, Denise Levertov, Hilda Morley, August Kleinzahler, Ann=20 Lauterbach, Ned Rorem, Wanda Coleman, Nathaniel Mackey, Barbara Guest,=20 Marjorie Perloff, Lyn Hejinian, and Charles Bernstein, among others. In=20 1988 the magazine was named one of the United States' ten outstanding=20 literary magazines by Coordinating Council of Literary Magazines. Special issues of the magazine include a supplement of Australian poetry=20 edited by John Tranter (No. 4), an issue on Censorship and the Arts (No.=20 5), a supplement of innovative poetry from Great Britain edited by Richard= =20 Caddel, and a supplement of Brazilian poetry edited by Regis Bonvicino (No.= =20 18). All back issues of the magazine are in print with the exception of No.= =20 4 and can be ordered from the address above. -- John Tranter Editor, Jacket magazine From JforJames Fri May 18 09:56:31 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 09:56:31 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Slope 10 Message-ID: <21.be8a8c2.2836840f@aol.com> Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 07:32:40 +1000 From: masthead at ONTHE.NET.AU Subject: Slope 10 Now online - http://www.slope/org Poetry Contemporary Croatian poetry Creative criticism And lots of pretty pictures From jdavis Fri May 18 16:34:46 2001 From: jdavis (Jordan Davis) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 16:34:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] don't know what it means In-Reply-To: <3B02D2AC.5D775BE8@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > and then, after my pre-existing sense of self has been exploded > by what I read (even if I felt I totally "agree" with it), then, I may be > compelled to analyze either what the speaker is "up to" or i may (I'm startled by how often poems *reinforce* my pre-existing sense of self ((ok, selves)), especially the ones that I could just as well describe as having *blown my mind.) (To put it another way, take Stevens's poem "Gubbinal." I think he's taking your side here, in that he keeps renaming the sun ((fiery seed, strange flower)) in an attempt to rebut a dreary second person for whom the world is ugly and the people are sad. But would *you* want to be called a different name every time someone addressed described or mentioned you?) > be just "sing along" (this is not just the difference between writing > a "review" or a "close reading" on one hand and writing my own poem > on the other). But I don't want to be dogmatic about it---obvously, > sometimes I do find I "keep at bay" certain poems or certain speakers, > and initially approach them skeptically, and in these cases the process > may involve a triumph over such skepticism. Yet other times, the skepticism (OK - to equivocate - I was proposing a readerly corollary to Dennis's words to writers about putting forward a plausibly amiable voice. I know *you* know Ron Padgett's and David Shapiro's responses to the idea of "finding your voice" and all the dubious authenticity that gets smuggled into the discussion there ((and that Ron uses even as he makes fun of using it - judo, anyone?)). You know what I'm talking about - the crafted and sensitive ((or surly)) persona-projection that gets in the way of otherwise pretty good poems.) > comes second, after the mesh-blur of identities that may occur to a porous > one such as sometimes-I, > like the riddle "when is a reaction not a reaction?" > (when it's a reaction against reaction?) > > So, which of the three do you prefer to sing along (or shoot your gun) to? (Johnny Rotten in San Francisco. But Qurdt and Iggy are fun too, no?) (Jordan, an ((American)) poet) From MillB Fri May 18 17:35:22 2001 From: MillB (MillB at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 17:35:22 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Poets.org Update #16 Message-ID: <50.15f45348.2836ef9a@aol.com> FYI Mill -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: India Amos Subject: Poets.org Update #16 Date: Fri, 18-May-2001 21:19:39 GMT Size: 4367 URL: From JforJames Fri May 18 20:51:45 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 20:51:45 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Slope 10 Message-ID: Double oops... Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 09:18:26 +1000 From: masthead at ONTHE.NET.AU Subject: Re: Slope 10 Oops - a mistake in the posted address for Slope: it should be http://www.slope.org How could I get that wrong? Sorry - A From grahamd Sun May 20 21:07:24 2001 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Sun, 20 May 2001 20:07:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bitter Quiz Message-ID: Wondering if everyone but me has gone to the beach, there to recite "Sea Surface Full of Clouds" . . . . Perhaps it's time for a diversion. So, a quiz. Who can name the author of the following? (No cheating, now...) The Bitter World of Spring On a wet pavement the white sky recedes mottled black by the inverted pillars of the red elms, in perspective, that lift the tangled net of their desires hard into the falling rain. And brown smoke is driven down, running like water over the roof of the bridge- keeper's cubicle. And, as usual, the fight as to the nature of poetry --Shall the philosophers capture it?-- is on. And, casting an eye down into the water, there, announced by the silence of a white bush in flower, close under the bridge, the shad ascend, midway between the surface and the mud, and you can see their bodies red-finned in the dark water headed, unrelenting, upstream. __________________________________ Assuming you didn't already know this poem, points will be awarded for (a) identifying the author; (b) explaining how you knew; and (c) commenting on why you like/don't like the poem. David Graham __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From wasanthony Mon May 21 09:13:55 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 06:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Bitter Quiz In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010521131355.84853.qmail@web12106.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Graham wrote: > Wondering if everyone but me has gone to the beach, there to recite > "Sea > Surface Full of Clouds" . . . . > > Perhaps it's time for a diversion. So, a quiz. Who can name the > author of > the following? (No cheating, now...) > > > The Bitter World of Spring > > On a wet pavement the white sky recedes > mottled black by the inverted > pillars of the red elms, > in perspective, that lift the tangled > > net of their desires hard into > the falling rain. And brown smoke > is driven down, running like > water over the roof of the bridge- > > keeper's cubicle. And, as usual, > the fight as to the nature of poetry > --Shall the philosophers capture it?-- > is on. And, casting an eye > > down into the water, there, announced > by the silence of a white > bush in flower, close > under the bridge, the shad ascend, > > midway between the surface and the mud, > and you can see their bodies > red-finned in the dark > water headed, unrelenting, upstream. > __________________________________ > > Assuming you didn't already know this poem, points will be awarded > for (a) > identifying the author; William Carlos Williams? > (b) explaining how you knew; It's 6 a.m. and so I asked Google. > and (c) > commenting on > why you like/don't like the poem. Does nothing for me, maybe because it's 6 a.m., but I do acknowledge the craft. I have trouble right away in the first and second stanzas, thanks to the elms and their tangled net of desires. Then I have a problem with the poet taking over. Or is it the poet? Who is "casting an eye"? Once I resolve that shad cannot cast an eye on themselves ascending, I kind of warm to that last cold image. Surely someone can articulate a more comprehensive explanation. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From JforJames Mon May 21 10:01:47 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 10:01:47 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark Strand poem Message-ID: <60.e93448d.283a79cb@aol.com> A five-part poem by Mark Strand from BLIZZARD OF ONE "Five Dogs" 1 I, the dog they call Spot, was about to sing. Autumn Had come, the walks were freckled with leaves, and a tarnished Moonlit emptiness crept over the valley floor. I wanted to climb the poets' hill before the winter settled in; I wanted to praise the soul. My neighbor told me Not to waste my time. Already the frost had deepened And the north wind, trailing the whip of its own scream, Pressed against the house. "A dog's sublimity is never news," He said, "what's another poet in the end?" And I stood in the midnight valley, watching the great starfields Flash and flower in the wished-for reaches of heaven. That's when I, the dog they call Spot, began to sing. 2 Now that the great dog I worshipped for years Has become none other than myself, I can look within And bark, and I can look at the mountains down the street And bark at them as well. I am an eye that sees itself Look back, a nose that tracks the scent of shadows As they fall, an ear that picks up sounds Before they're born. I am the last of the platinum Retrievers, the end of a gorgeous line. But there's no comfort being who I am. I roam around and ponder fate's abolishments Until my eyes are filled with tears and I say to myself, "Oh Rex, Forget. Forget. The stars are out. The marble moon slides by." 3 Most of my kind believe that Earth Is the only planet not covered with hair. So be it, I say, let tragedy strike, let the story of everything End today, then let it begin again tomorrow. I no longer care. I no longer wait in front of the blistered, antique mirror, Hoping a shape or a self will rise, and step From Rsgwynn1 Mon May 21 10:11:49 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 10:11:49 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Wallace Stevens-Anecdote of the Jar Message-ID: <9f.15a9a704.283a7c25@cs.com> In a message dated 5/14/2001 10:28:52 AM Central Daylight Time, bckice at loyno.edu writes: > Why does Stevens want to put down a jar > that will only ruin things in the end? Maybe if I knew more about him I > could > have a better understanding of what Tennesse has to do with it. > Stevens used to travel quite a bit in the insurance business, and I've always suspected this poem is a comical account of a trip to a bootlegger. Can't prove it, of course. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Mon May 21 10:16:09 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 10:16:09 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Bi-polar Emily? Message-ID: In a message dated 5/14/2001 3:55:56 PM Central Daylight Time, Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu writes: > Also, I remember a number of years back there was an article in _The > New York Times_ suggesting Emily's reclusiveness was a result of poor > eyesight, a condition called Wall-Eye. > > In my files I have a copy of a conference paper that claims that E. D. was a victim of child abuse. Might as well claim she was a victim of e.d. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Mon May 21 11:11:37 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 11:11:37 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman in poetry Message-ID: <20.16b8259d.283a8a29@cs.com> In a message dated 5/17/2001 4:38:21 PM Central Daylight Time, MillB at aol.com writes: > Ok--so now I'm hooked and stumped. . .like a television jungle for laundry > soap that you cannot get rid of. . .since I read the first of this posting > thread. . .my mind's been on, "I think of you, tonight, Walt Whitman. .. or > "My thoughts turn to you, Walt Whitman." Will someone please pu me out of > my > misery and. . .name the poem that has that line in it??? > > I just KNOW it's something obvious that II'll kick myself about later. . . > It's Louis Simpson's poem, isn't it? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 Mon May 21 11:12:33 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 11:12:33 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman in poetry Message-ID: <8b.6de2074.283a8a61@cs.com> In a message dated 5/17/2001 4:38:21 PM Central Daylight Time, MillB at aol.com writes: > Ok--so now I'm hooked and stumped. . .like a television jungle for laundry > soap that you cannot get rid of. . .since I read the first of this posting > thread. . .my mind's been on, "I think of you, tonight, Walt Whitman. .. or > "My thoughts turn to you, Walt Whitman." Will someone please pu me out of > my > misery and. . .name the poem that has that line in it??? > > I just KNOW it's something obvious that II'll kick myself about later. . . > > Argh. > > Oops. The Ginsberg poem. Simpson has one that's similar, "Walt Whitman on Bear Mountain." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Edward.Byrne Mon May 21 11:27:44 2001 From: Edward.Byrne (Edward Byrne) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 10:27:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark Strand poem In-Reply-To: <60.e93448d.283a79cb@aol.com> Message-ID: In addition to the readings at Knopf, I also suggest my review of Strand in the current issue of _Valparaiso Poetry Review_: http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/byrnereviewstrand.html --Edward Byrne >JforJames wrote: > A five-part poem by Mark Strand from BLIZZARD OF ONE > > > "Five Dogs" > > 1 > > I, the dog they call Spot, was about to sing. Autumn > Had come, the walks were freckled with leaves, and a tarnished > Moonlit emptiness crept over the valley floor. > I wanted to climb the poets' hill before the winter settled in; > I wanted to praise the soul. My neighbor told me > Not to waste my time. Already the frost had deepened > And the north wind, trailing the whip of its own scream, > Pressed against the house. "A dog's sublimity is never news," > He said, "what's another poet in the end?" > And I stood in the midnight valley, watching the great starfields > Flash and flower in the wished-for reaches of heaven. > That's when I, the dog they call Spot, began to sing. > > > 2 > > Now that the great dog I worshipped for years > Has become none other than myself, I can look within > And bark, and I can look at the mountains down the street > And bark at them as well. I am an eye that sees itself > Look back, a nose that tracks the scent of shadows > As they fall, an ear that picks up sounds > Before they're born. I am the last of the platinum > Retrievers, the end of a gorgeous line. > But there's no comfort being who I am. > I roam around and ponder fate's abolishments > Until my eyes are filled with tears and I say to myself, "Oh Rex, > Forget. Forget. The stars are out. The marble moon slides by." > > > 3 > > Most of my kind believe that Earth > Is the only planet not covered with hair. So be it, > I say, let tragedy strike, let the story of everything > End today, then let it begin again tomorrow. I no longer care. > I no longer wait in front of the blistered, antique mirror, > Hoping a shape or a self will rise, and step > From that misted surface and say: You there, > Come with me into the world of light and be whole, > For the love you thought had been dead a thousand years > Is back in town and asking for you. Oh no. > I say, I'm done with my kind. I live alone > On Walnut Lane, and will until the day I die. > > > 4 > > Before the tremendous dogs are unleashed, > Let's get the little ones inside, let's drag > The big bones onto the lawn and clean The Royal Dog Hotel. > Gypsy, my love, the end of an age has come. Already, > The howls of the great dogs practicing fills the air, > And look at that man on all fours dancing under > The moon's dumbfounded gaze, and look at that woman > Doing the same. The wave of the future has gotten > To them and they have responded with all they have: > A little step forward, a little step back. And they sway, > And their eyes are closed. O heavenly bodies. > O bodies of time. O golden bodies of lasting fire. > > > 5 > > All winter the weather came up with amazing results: > The streets and walks had turned to glass. The sky > Was a sheet of white. And here was a dog in a phone booth > Calling home. But nothing would ease his tiny heart. > For years the song of his body was all of his calling. Now > It was nothing. Those hymns to desire, songs of bliss > Would never return. The sky's copious indigo, > The yellow dust of sunlight after rain, were gone. > No one was home. The phone kept ringing. The curtains > Of sleep were about to be drawn, and darkness would pass > Into the world. And so, and so . . . goodbye all, goodbye dog. > > > > Copyright (c) 1999 by Mark Strand > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > More Mark Strand at http://www.knopfpoetry.com > > Read an essay by Mark Strand from his prose collection THE WEATHER OF > WORDS at http://www.knopfpoetry.com/studentcenter/essays/ > > Give us your feedback in the forum at > http://www.knopfpoetry.com/studentcenter/ > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------------------------------------------- Edward Byrne Department of English 322 Huegli Hall Valparaiso University Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/ Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/ Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 Fax: (219) 464-5511 -------------------------------------------------- From CobbCoStudioArts Mon May 21 12:41:31 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 09:41:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Mark Strand poem Message-ID: <20010521164131.279262744@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From JforJames Mon May 21 14:30:11 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 14:30:11 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Aldrich Poetry Competition Message-ID: <8c.6eca02b.283ab8b3@aol.com> Aldrich Poetry Competition For Immediate Release Press Contact: Aran Winterbottom 203-438-4519 x 3005 awinter at aldrichart.org Event: The Annual Aldrich Poetry Competition Deadline: Postmarked by Tuesday: July 31, 2000 Cost: $10 submittal fee The Annual Aldrich Poetry Competition Juror: Billy Collins Ridgefield, CT (April 2000): Stage A: Poetry & Spoken Word at The Aldrich Museum of Contemporary Art is sending out an area call to all poets for submissions to the 2001 Aldrich Poetry Competition. The juror for 2001's competition is award-winning poet Billy Collins. Two poets will be selected and are awarded an honorarium. Their works will also be published in The Aldrich's poetry chapbook series. A reading will take place in January 2002 (date to be announced). Poets can submit up to 15 poems. For a complete list of guidelines, send a SASE to Pamela Auchincloss, The Aldrich Poetry Competition, c/o AMCA, 258 Main St., Ridgefield, CT 06877 or visit the cultural programs page on the Museum's website www.aldrichart.org. Billy Collins is the author of six books of poetry including Picnic, Lightning (1997). Collins is also the recipient of numerous fellowships, including The National Endowment for the Arts and the Guggenheim Foundation. Currently, Collins is the poet-in-residence at Burren College of Art, Ireland and a professor of English at Lehman College (CUNY). Guidelines: Poets can submit up to 15 poems by Tuesday, July 31, 2001. All entries, which must include a SASE for notification, can be sent to Pamela Auchincloss, The Aldrich Poetry Competition, c/o AMCA, 258 Main Street, Ridgefield, CT 06877. The fee for submittal is $10. Please make all checks payable to The Aldrich Museum of Contemporary Art. Include coversheet with author and titles. Authors name should appear on the coversheet only. Please note that materials will not be returned. The Aldrich Museum of Contemporary Art is located in Ridgefield on Route 35. For directions and reservations, call the museum at (203) 438-4519. Regular Museum hours are Tuesday through Sunday, 12 noon to 5 PM; Friday, 12 noon to 8 PM. From adead_poet Tue May 22 03:01:52 2001 From: adead_poet (dead poet) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 02:01:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] biographical info Message-ID: Hello, I need some biographical information on some poets. I've looked on the internet, but I couldn't find what I was looking for, so I'm hoping one of you can help me. I need basic biographical information on David Lerner (1951-1997), Heather Brittain Bergstrom (no idea her birthdate), Henry Carlile (no idea birthdate), Robert Cooperman (no idea birthdate), Alice B. Fogel (no idea birthdate), Joey Froelich (no idea birthdate), and Mike Golden (no idea birthdate). As well as information on Mark Benyo, Cecil Boatswain, and Herby Ehinger, who are all incarcerated, and I cannot find birthdates or biographical info on any of them. Birth dates (and death dates if applicable) for: Fred Voss, Cathy Smith Bowers, Joyce Sutphen, Jim Chandler, Alan Kaufman, Judson Mitcham, Michael Lally, and Robert Phillips. Also are A.D. Winans, Harold Norse, and Hubert Selby, Jr. still alive? Thanks in advance for any help you can give (and of course, you can reply to me off list). jason _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From CobbCoStudioArts Tue May 22 07:15:44 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 04:15:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] doggerel Message-ID: <20010522111544.8872F36F9@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From wasanthony Tue May 22 08:53:00 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 05:53:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] biographical info In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010522125300.26340.qmail@web12107.mail.yahoo.com> --- dead poet wrote: > Hello, > > I need some biographical information on some poets. I've looked on > the > internet, but I couldn't find what I was looking for, so I'm hoping > one of > you can help me. > > I need basic biographical information on David Lerner (1951-1997), > Heather > Brittain Bergstrom (no idea her birthdate), Henry Carlile (no idea > birthdate), Robert Cooperman (no idea birthdate), Alice B. Fogel (no > idea > birthdate), Joey Froelich (no idea birthdate), and Mike Golden (no > idea > birthdate). As well as information on Mark Benyo, Cecil Boatswain, > and Herby > Ehinger, who are all incarcerated, and I cannot find birthdates or > biographical info on any of them. > > Birth dates (and death dates if applicable) for: Fred Voss, Cathy > Smith > Bowers, Joyce Sutphen, Jim Chandler, Alan Kaufman, Judson Mitcham, > Michael > Lally, and Robert Phillips. > > Also are A.D. Winans, Harold Norse, and Hubert Selby, Jr. still > alive? > > Thanks in advance for any help you can give (and of course, you can > reply to > me off list). > > jason Jason: This lead me on an interesting half-hour search, during which I stumbled upon some info I can use for a project of my own. But, here are some solid leads for several of the people mentioned above (just typing a name within quotation marks in Google works wonders!): David Lerner (1951-1997) Heather Brittain Bergstrom Henry Carlile Cecil Boatswain Michael Lally Robert Phillips Harold Norse Hubert Selby, Jr. Good luck. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From bateman Mon May 21 15:24:00 2001 From: bateman (bateman at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 15:24:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] NYTimes.com Article: How Crit Finally Won Out Over Lit Message-ID: <20010521192400.B1D1658A4D@email5.lga2.nytimes.com> This article from NYTimes.com has been sent to you by bateman at freenet.edmonton.ab.ca. Interesting article. /-------------------- advertisement -----------------------\ Let NYTimes.com Come to You Sign up for one of our weekly e-mails and the news will come directly to you. YOUR MONEY brings you a wealth of analysis and information about personal investing. CIRCUITS plugs you into the latest on personal technology. TRAVEL DISPATCH offers you a jump on special travel deals and news. http://email.nytimes.com/email/email.jsp?eta5 \----------------------------------------------------------/ How Crit Finally Won Out Over Lit By SARAH BOXER W. W. Norton & Company, the maker of literary canons and the publisher of numerous anthologies, is about to release a self-deconstructing bombshell. http://www.nytimes.com/2001/05/19/arts/19NORT.html?ex=991473040&ei=1&en=7bef0c571f9c3d03 /-----------------------------------------------------------------\ Visit NYTimes.com for complete access to the most authoritative news coverage on the Web, updated throughout the day. Become a member today! It's free! http://www.nytimes.com?eta \-----------------------------------------------------------------/ HOW TO ADVERTISE --------------------------------- For information on advertising in e-mail newsletters or other creative advertising opportunities with The New York Times on the Web, please contact Alyson Racer at alyson at nytimes.com or visit our online media kit at http://www.nytimes.com/adinfo For general information about NYTimes.com, write to help at nytimes.com. Copyright 2001 The New York Times Company From tadrichards Tue May 22 09:32:58 2001 From: tadrichards (theoldmole) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 09:32:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] biographical info References: Message-ID: <001101c0e2c3$b8dc0160$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> A.D. Winans is still alive. Ye Olde Font Shoppe Press in Connecticut recently released a new collection of his, San Francisco Streets. Check it out at http://www.webcom.com/~yeolde/ Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "dead poet" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 3:01 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] biographical info > Hello, > > I need some biographical information on some poets. I've looked on the > internet, but I couldn't find what I was looking for, so I'm hoping one of > you can help me. > > I need basic biographical information on David Lerner (1951-1997), Heather > Brittain Bergstrom (no idea her birthdate), Henry Carlile (no idea > birthdate), Robert Cooperman (no idea birthdate), Alice B. Fogel (no idea > birthdate), Joey Froelich (no idea birthdate), and Mike Golden (no idea > birthdate). As well as information on Mark Benyo, Cecil Boatswain, and Herby > Ehinger, who are all incarcerated, and I cannot find birthdates or > biographical info on any of them. > > Birth dates (and death dates if applicable) for: Fred Voss, Cathy Smith > Bowers, Joyce Sutphen, Jim Chandler, Alan Kaufman, Judson Mitcham, Michael > Lally, and Robert Phillips. > > Also are A.D. Winans, Harold Norse, and Hubert Selby, Jr. still alive? > > Thanks in advance for any help you can give (and of course, you can reply to > me off list). > > jason > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From terran Tue May 22 12:33:52 2001 From: terran (shep) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 09:33:52 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] doggerel In-Reply-To: <20010522111544.8872F36F9@sitemail.everyone.net> References: <20010522111544.8872F36F9@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: Makes me think of the song "Old Shep" by Elvis. Do you know it? A real tear-jerker! shep From CobbCoStudioArts Tue May 22 14:51:24 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 11:51:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] doggerel Message-ID: <20010522185124.E9CC23ECC@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From tadrichards Tue May 22 14:59:38 2001 From: tadrichards (theoldmole) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 14:59:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] doggerel References: <20010522185124.E9CC23ECC@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <006d01c0e2f1$59b36a60$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> "Old Shep" was from Elvis' second album on RCA Victor, "Elvis" (the first was entitled "Elvis Presley"). It's a classic country weeper, originally recorded by Red Foley, one of Elvis' early idols (and, I believe, Pat Boone's father-in-law). Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert R.Cobb" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 2:51 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] doggerel > Shep...not your theme song, I presume? "Old Shep" must not have been one of Elvis' "Gold Records." > > Bob Cobb > > --- shep > > wrote: > >Makes me think of the song "Old Shep" by Elvis. Do you know it? A > >real tear-jerker! > > > >shep > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > == > Poetry Catamaran > > "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" > > Robert R. Cobb > AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. > http://rrcobb.tripod.com > > _____________________________________________________________ > ----- > Check out my portfolio at www.talent.com > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Rsgwynn1 Tue May 22 15:15:54 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 15:15:54 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] doggerel Message-ID: <31.152aab42.283c14ea@cs.com> In a message dated 5/22/2001 1:52:34 PM Central Daylight Time, CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com writes: > Shep...not your theme song, I presume? "Old Shep" must not have been one of > Elvis' "Gold Records." > > Bob Cobb > "Old Shep" was, I believe, a Red Foley song before Elvis recorded it. It was one he used to perform in high school talent shows. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wasanthony Tue May 22 18:33:46 2001 From: wasanthony (jcervantes) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 15:33:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] "Ripples" narrative update Message-ID: <20010522223346.88457.qmail@web12108.mail.yahoo.com> The "Ripples" narrative has been updated, for anyone curious about such. It's a long, slow process but I'll bet that by the end of summer we have a dozen pages - once this past spring semester is long forgotten. Oh yeah, it really does have connections to poetry! - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ From JackKerouac25 Tue May 22 19:20:49 2001 From: JackKerouac25 (JackKerouac25 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 19:20:49 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Speaking of Poems . . . Message-ID: <51.c007b63.283c4e51@aol.com> Listers, I shouldn't be doing what I'm about to do; I'm taking advantage of your sensibilities. However, I've been working on some poems about growing up in the 1980s (I'm 26), and I've decided to post one of my own. Any criticism/rants/raves/flames would be helpful. Most of the cats I know think that everything I write is, and I quote, "not bad." I figured the anonymity of the computer screen might encourage some of you to be frank with me. Thanks in advance for your patience and your time. Ghosts before Coffee I There are mornings, sure, when I sleep till 7, but mostly, the ghosts get me out of bed when the day's still blue, when the night's chill hasn't shaken off yet. Beside the bed, the alarm clock glows, flashing, red, reminding me that perhaps the power went last night. Perhaps it didn't. Perhaps I never set the clock at all. These days run together, you know. I still see them, running around this house, feet sticking to the linoleum in the kitchen. I still smell her in the kitchen, fried eggs crackling in a black iron skillet, coffee steaming and brewing in the Mr. Coffee pot, draining into the stained carafe. The paper will still be outside the door when I go, the wind will still blow in off the bay, salty and wet. The news will always come. II The boys' bedroom has become a museum and a storehouse of useless future memories. My boy Allen would have been 14 in the fall, and though I know he loved his books, and would have rather played his games on the weekends, I like the picture him, strong and tall, his arm cocked back in a year book photo, ready to send that football spiraling to the end zone to win that homecoming game- Thomas would have been 12, the year he discovered girls, and he'd come home from school, adamant that the Higgins girl who rode her bike home beside him wasn't a girlfriend, couldn't be because he doesn't even like girls. These misogynistic fantasies fill my head when I stand in the doorway, when I see the stacks of leftover toys, the racked beds, the posters of rock stars whose music I'll never like, Allen's shoes beneath the dresser, sticking out like two tiny feet, Thomas's jacket in a crumpled heap on the floor, dust settling around the small room while the light from the window swords through the dust mites, cutting a prism of shadows through the room. They lived here, I repeat. They lived here. III Her wedding band looked like a sun fading behind the moon. I bought it special made from Sears, a whole month's paycheck blown on the gold and diamond. Now, it sets on top of a small brown jewelry box I bought her our first Christmas together- a jewelry box she never filled, not because I couldn't afford the diamonds or pearls, not because I never bought her anything (for her, I'd have purchased the entire world), but because she never wore any jewelry. In a store once, she tried on a golden ring with emerald inlays like panther's eyes, but while the sales lady gushed with compliments, my wife's eyes said to me, See how it drips off my finger? And I could see the way, suddenly, it looked like molten steel dripping away, and it all looked so unreal, so fake. She never wore makeup, so in the bathroom, I don't have to stare at old compacts or powder. I simply have the mirror where steam used to collect when I showered, where she'd write, "I love you" in the condensation and ask me over breakfast if I received any messages from beyond before I shaved. IV This morning the newspaper forecasts sun for at least another two weeks, and this summer heat's killing me. Dog and cats go mad in this furnace and some mornings the weather burns hotter than the coffee. I sit the empty dining room, steaming coffee before me, and I watch how the smoke always drifts up and how it pirouettes around itself, tying tiny knots that can be destroyed with a simple, careless breath of air. Jeffrey L. Newberry Adjunct Instructor Department of English and Foreign Languages University of West Florida 11000 University Parkway Pensacola, FL 32514 850.474.2923 850.473.7330 From CobbCoStudioArts Tue May 22 20:53:03 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 17:53:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Speaking of Poems . . . Message-ID: <20010523005303.3303536F9@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From JackKerouac25 Tue May 22 23:25:30 2001 From: JackKerouac25 (JackKerouac25 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 May 2001 23:25:30 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Speaking of Poems . . . Message-ID: In a message dated 5/22/01 7:53:39 PM Central Daylight Time, CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com writes: > Jeff, > > There had to have been a most tragic event that wiped out your family. Your > poem poignantly, sadly, expresses your grief. > > Bob Cobb > Bob, Actually, I've never lost my family. I lost my dad, back when I was 15. I was trying to write in a voice that is distinctly different from mine--I tried to channel the emotions of losing a parent into the emotions of losing a family. Thanks for your commentary. Jeffrey L. Newberry Adjunct Instructor Department of English and Foreign Languages University of West Florida 11000 University Parkway Pensacola, FL 32514 850.474.2923 850.473.7330 From JforJames Thu May 24 12:01:40 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:01:40 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] & Truman Capote said, "That's not writing...that's typing." Message-ID: <57.168dc546.283e8a64@aol.com> A bit of lit news clipped from another list... The scroll on which Jack Kerouac composed On the Road 50 years ago was = auctioned on Tuesday at Christie's in Manhattan for $US2.4 million ($4.5 = million), setting the world auction record for a literary manuscript and = significantly eclipsing its presale estimate of $US1 million to $US1.5 = million. ---- The Ammons' heirs may want to test the market for 'Tape for the Turn of the Year' after this news. Jim F From anastasios Thu May 24 12:08:35 2001 From: anastasios (Anastasios Kozaitis) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 12:08:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] & Truman Capote said, "That's not writing...that's typing." In-Reply-To: <57.168dc546.283e8a64@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010524120808.00a74eb0@mail.verizon.net> from a friend-- >I was at Christie's today and met Jim Irsay. He flew up here with his old >friend Douglas Brinkley (who i just met and shared a ride partway downtown >with). The bidding war ended up being between Jim Irsay, sitting behind us, >and a couple in the row in front of us. I went to the auction with Michelle >Esrick who asked Mr. Irsay point blank after he bought the scroll "Are you >going to share it with the world?" Jim talked about the possibility of >bringing the scroll on the road (in celebration of the 50th year), and talked >about the importance of sharing it with others. Jim's also a poet and guitar >player who spoke of his spirituality and connection to the "beat" writers. He >also said that since Kerouac was an american original, that he was hoping to >buy it to keep it in the USA. And he went on at length about honoring Jack >and paying tribute to him, and acknowledgment of his importance in >literature. The commentary about the football trophy was something he threw >in after all the other really nice things he said about Kerouac. I have a >feeling that's the blurb that the media will spread around though. > >I was surprised at the authentic love he had for Kerouac and happy too - the >awesome and beautiful manuscript, which transcends monetary value, could have >gone to someone who cared a lot less. Plus, i was comforted to see that >Douglas Brinkley and Sterling Lord were friends with Jim Irsay. (Two people >who really love Kerouac.) At 12:01 PM 5/24/01, JforJames at aol.com wrote: >A bit of lit news clipped from another list... >The scroll on which Jack Kerouac composed On the Road 50 years ago was = >auctioned on Tuesday at Christie's in Manhattan for $US2.4 million ($4.5 = >million), setting the world auction record for a literary manuscript and = >significantly eclipsing its presale estimate of $US1 million to $US1.5 = >million. >---- >The Ammons' heirs may want to test the market for >'Tape for the Turn of the Year' after this news. >Jim F >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd Thu May 24 14:09:20 2001 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 13:09:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Highway Sixty Visited Message-ID: Can't bear to let Bob Dylan's 60th birthday pass without at least a nod. For better or worse, his lyrics were my highway into poetry, way back when. Of the many Dylan modes, the one I return to most as I grow older is the blues. She Belongs to Me She's got everything she needs, She's an artist, she don't look back. She's got everything she needs, She's an artist, she don't look back. She can take the dark out of the nighttime And paint the daytime black. You will start out standing Proud to steal her anything she sees. You will start out standing Proud to steal her anything she sees. But you will wind up peeking through her keyhole Down upon your knees. She never stumbles, She's got no place to fall. She never stumbles, She's got no place to fall. She's nobody's child, The Law can't touch her at all. She wears an Egyptian ring That sparkles before she speaks. She wears an Egyptian ring That sparkles before she speaks. She's a hypnotist collector, You are a walking antique. Bow down to her on Sunday, Salute her when her birthday comes. Bow down to her on Sunday, Salute her when her birthday comes. For Halloween give her a trumpet And for Christmas, buy her a drum. --Bob Dylan _______________________________ While I'm at it, let me recommend the new Red House Records tribute album, *A Nod to Bob*, which features an eclectic group of performers (e.g. Greg Brown, Eliza Gilkyson, Guy Davis, Rambling Jack Elliott, the Roches) performing favorite Dylan songs. David Graham __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From fmm1 Thu May 24 14:42:33 2001 From: fmm1 (Fred Muratori) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 14:42:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] & Truman Capote said, "That's not writing...that's typing." In-Reply-To: <57.168dc546.283e8a64@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010524141824.00a508a0@postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu> At 12:01 PM 5/24/01 -0400, you wrote: >A bit of lit news clipped from another list... >The scroll on which Jack Kerouac composed On the Road 50 years ago was = >auctioned on Tuesday at Christie's in Manhattan for $US2.4 million ($4.5 = >million), setting the world auction record for a literary manuscript and = >significantly eclipsing its presale estimate of $US1 million to $US1.5 = >million. >---- >The Ammons' heirs may want to test the market for >'Tape for the Turn of the Year' after this news. >Jim F Just as a point of fact, the "Tape for the Turn of the Year" adding machine roll is kept in the Cornell University Library Rare & Manuscript Collection as part of the Ammons archive, where any visitor to the Library can see it on request. -- Fred M. ******************************************************** Fred Muratori (fmm1 at cornell.edu) Reference Services Division Olin * Kroch * Uris Libraries Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853 WWW: http://fmref.library.cornell.edu/spectra.html ********************************************************* "The spaces between things keep getting bigger and more important." - John Ashbery From paul.lake Thu May 24 03:40:47 2001 From: paul.lake (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 02:40:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Highway Sixty Visited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 5/24/01 1:09 PM, David Graham at grahamd at mail.ripon.edu wrote: > Can't bear to let Bob Dylan's 60th birthday pass without at least a nod. > For better or worse, his lyrics were my highway into poetry, way back when. > > > Of the many Dylan modes, the one I return to most as I grow older is the > blues. > > She Belongs to Me > > She's got everything she needs, > She's an artist, she don't look back. > She's got everything she needs, > She's an artist, she don't look back. > She can take the dark out of the nighttime > And paint the daytime black. > > You will start out standing > Proud to steal her anything she sees. > You will start out standing > Proud to steal her anything she sees. > But you will wind up peeking through her keyhole > Down upon your knees. > > She never stumbles, > She's got no place to fall. > She never stumbles, > She's got no place to fall. > She's nobody's child, > The Law can't touch her at all. > > She wears an Egyptian ring > That sparkles before she speaks. > She wears an Egyptian ring > That sparkles before she speaks. > She's a hypnotist collector, > You are a walking antique. > > Bow down to her on Sunday, > Salute her when her birthday comes. > Bow down to her on Sunday, > Salute her when her birthday comes. > For Halloween give her a trumpet > And for Christmas, buy her a drum. > --Bob Dylan > _______________________________ > > While I'm at it, let me recommend the new Red House Records tribute album, > *A Nod to Bob*, which features an eclectic group of performers (e.g. Greg > Brown, Eliza Gilkyson, Guy Davis, Rambling Jack Elliott, the Roches) > performing favorite Dylan songs. > > David Graham > > __________________ > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > __________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Great blues lyrics, David, and wholly unknown to me. Thanks for posting. Paul lake From Edward.Byrne Thu May 24 17:47:30 2001 From: Edward.Byrne (Edward Byrne) Date: Thu, 24 May 2001 16:47:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Highway Sixty Visited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I posted the following to another list, but I'll re-post it here for this thread-- I know for many of us it may be hard to believe as true, but May 24 is the 60th birthday for Bobby Zimmerman (better known as Bob Dylan). So I'd like to pay tribute with some lines from a couple of his own songs: ...remember me, How my lone guitar played sweet for you that old-time melody. And the harmonica around my neck, I blew it for you, free, No one else could play that tune, You know it was up to me. [from "Up to Me"] May your heart always be joyful, May your song always be sung, May you stay forever young. [from "Forever Young"] --Edward Byrne > Can't bear to let Bob Dylan's 60th birthday pass without at least a nod. > For better or worse, his lyrics were my highway into poetry, way back > when. > > > Of the many Dylan modes, the one I return to most as I grow older is the > blues. > > She Belongs to Me > > She's got everything she needs, > She's an artist, she don't look back. > She's got everything she needs, > She's an artist, she don't look back. > She can take the dark out of the nighttime > And paint the daytime black. > > You will start out standing > Proud to steal her anything she sees. > You will start out standing > Proud to steal her anything she sees. > But you will wind up peeking through her keyhole > Down upon your knees. > > She never stumbles, > She's got no place to fall. > She never stumbles, > She's got no place to fall. > She's nobody's child, > The Law can't touch her at all. > > She wears an Egyptian ring > That sparkles before she speaks. > She wears an Egyptian ring > That sparkles before she speaks. > She's a hypnotist collector, > You are a walking antique. > > Bow down to her on Sunday, > Salute her when her birthday comes. > Bow down to her on Sunday, > Salute her when her birthday comes. > For Halloween give her a trumpet > And for Christmas, buy her a drum. > --Bob Dylan > _______________________________ > > While I'm at it, let me recommend the new Red House Records tribute > album, *A Nod to Bob*, which features an eclectic group of performers > (e.g. Greg Brown, Eliza Gilkyson, Guy Davis, Rambling Jack Elliott, the > Roches) performing favorite Dylan songs. > > David Graham -------------------------------------------------- Edward Byrne Department of English 322 Huegli Hall Valparaiso University Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/ Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/ Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 Fax: (219) 464-5511 -------------------------------------------------- From JforJames Fri May 25 12:39:07 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 12:39:07 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] MUDLARK FLASH NO. 11 (2001) Message-ID: <62.f0a87b6.283fe4ab@aol.com> Date: Tue, 15 May 2001 14:19:04 -0400 From: William Slaughter Subject: Mudlark Flash No. 11 (2001) NEW AND ON VIEW: MUDLARK FLASH NO. 11 (2001) Risa Denenberg | The Conversion of Saint Jon for Jon Marshall Greenberg, 1956-1993 "I am a nurse, a lesbian, and a grandmother, but most deeply, a writer. Currently I live and work as a free-lance medical writer in New York City. Most of my published works are non-fiction. Most of my poems are non-fiction as well, some of which have been published here and there." -- Risa Denenberg from After Life At first you see your dead friend all the time walking down the street, turning the corner, slipping from your reach. The lights blink during a brownout in summer, and you think _it's him_. Spread the word. Far and wide, William Slaughter MUDLARK An Electronic Journal of Poetry & Poetics Never in and never out of print... E-mail: mudlark at unf.edu URL: http://www.unf.edu/mudlark From grahamd Sun May 27 16:02:45 2001 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 15:02:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Google Poetry Message-ID: I just stumbled on Google's wonderfully comprehensive site of poetry links--thought I would mention it for the benefit of others who may not have found it yet: http://directory.google.com/Top/Arts/Literature/Poetry/ David Graham __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From halvard Sun May 27 17:15:14 2001 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 17:15:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Google Poetry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Maybe extensive, but comprehensive? Why, great land o' Goshen, I couldn't even find Blue Moon Review there. Hal "Poetry is harder to read than prose because you have to read all the white stuff too." Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson > I just stumbled on Google's wonderfully comprehensive site of poetry > links--thought I would mention it for the benefit of others who may not > have found it yet: > > http://directory.google.com/Top/Arts/Literature/Poetry/ > > David Graham From CobbCoStudioArts Sun May 27 20:04:05 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 17:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Google Poetry Message-ID: <20010528000405.B389E36EE@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From JforJames Sun May 27 20:25:42 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 20:25:42 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Two poems from Given Sugar, Given Salt Message-ID: <30.157342b7.2842f506@aol.com> From JBCM2 Mon May 28 13:41:04 2001 From: JBCM2 (JBCM2 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 13:41:04 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: "RADICAL(?)" LANGPOS FORM ALLIANCE WITH RABID RIGHT-WINGER Message-ID: at the writer's request, I'm sending this along. please forward all comments to carlo parcelli at alphavil at IX.NETCOM.COM jb -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "R. Gancie/C.Parcelli" Subject: "RADICAL(?)" LANGPOS FORM ALLIANCE WITH RABID RIGHT-WINGER Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 22:08:24 +0000 Size: 5945 URL: From JforJames Mon May 28 18:28:11 2001 From: JforJames (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 18:28:11 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: "RADICAL(?)" LANGPOS FORM ALLIANCE WITH RABID RIGHT-WIN... Message-ID: The CD will certainly be of interest but I'd be very interested in hearing the story behind this story of a fellow traveller making a strange bedfellow. Having dipped into the subsubpoetics archives in recent months and seen Richard Dillon's posts, I can confirm that Dillon's politics are outriding the rightmost flank. Perhaps Charles Bernstein will spin it something like Willie Sutton did when he was asked Why did he rob banks? Finnegan From grahamd Tue May 29 17:13:49 2001 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 16:13:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ploughshares web site Message-ID: Ploughshares has a spiffy updated web site that is worth a look: http://www.pshares.org/ The only time I published in Ploughshares w