From JforJames at aol.com Fri Jun 1 09:20:54 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 09:20:54 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Wang Ping poem Message-ID: THESE IMAGES Thus like swans, wings wide open in the air, when spring splashes lakes onto shores, where in the woods, wild ducks wheeling in pairs for a love nest, and snakes, after spring's first thunders, slide forth from winter's fields, when raccoons lose their minds mating among maple leaves in Quaker cemeteries, and golden smoke rises above cypress trees, their needles aquiver with too much pollen, when songs flow from lips and bare feet welcome the embrace of sand, where, under the tent of a white sheet, eyes fall on the sea-drenched forehead of the beloved, when the church bell rings, children dash through the lunchroom, their jackets of tropical fruit and birds of paradise against the concrete ground of P.S. 19, where words are at stake and thoughts immobilized, where life shouts with joy and being is beauty and love no longer clings, where senses quicken their steps to enter hearts of things . . . So simple, these images, their recognition is in our nature, yet too often neglected, our eyes already elsewhere. It is beyond the gods why we hold onto our sorrows so long, and so stubborn. WANG PING --------------------------------- Copyright (c) 1998 Wang Ping. From "Of Flesh and Spirit," published by Coffee House Press, http://www.coffeehousepress.org From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 2 17:26:15 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R. Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 17:26:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetics of History Part I Message-ID: <3B1959F7.6190@ix.netcom.com> As every American schoolchild learns, in 1933, the year Adolph Hitler was appointed Chancellor of Germany, a committee of wealthy bankers and industrialists, calling themselves the American Liberty League, attempted a coup against the duly elected government of Franklin D. Roosevelt. The man chosen to lead this coup was Major General Smedley Butler, Marine Corps Retired, and the only person to ever be awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor twice. Smedley Butler was immensely popular among veterans having giving over a 1000 speeches at VA halls and supporting the Bonus Army when it staged its demonstrations here in Washington. (Ironically, Douglas MacAuthor was the second choice to lead the coup, the man who had driven the Bonus Army veterans from Washington DC at the order of Herbert Hoover.) But Butler was the wrong man to involve in a conspiracy to commit treason. He solicited the help of a journalist, Paul Comly French, to gather coorborating evidence, and then went public with the plot. Congressional hearings were held and the plot and American Liberty League were exposed. The American Liberty league had brokerage head Grayson M.-P. Murphy as its treasurer and Robert Clark as one of its financiers as well as John W. Davis, names that then meant wealth and power then but are largely forgotten today. Contributors to the A.L.L. included representatives of the Morgan, Du Pont, Rockefeller, Pew, and Mellon interests. Directors of The league included Al Smith (yes, the Democratic presidential candidate in 1928) and John J. Raskob a board member and official at Du pont. The League later formed affiliations with pro-Fascist, anti-labor, and anti-semitic organizations. This was not to be a gentle coup. As French testified, "We discussed the question of arms and equipment, and Maguire suggested that they could be obtained from the Remington Arms Co., on credit through the Du Ponts. I do not think at the time he mentioned the connections of Du Ponts with the American Liberty League...but he skirted all around the idea that that was the back door; one of the Du Ponts is on the board of directors of the American Liberty league and they own a controlling interest in the Remington Arms Co....He said the General would not have any trouble enlisting 500,000 men." For years the Congress would release only a heavily censored version of the hearings. The corporate press protected the conspirators because it was financially supported by them and in some owned by the conspirators. Butler charged, quite correctly as history has demonstrated, that "the capitalist-controlled press suppressed facts unfavorable to America's powerul corporations." (see Archer.) Of course, no one involved in the plot was put before a firing squad for treason. The elites were not even questioned. End Part One Carlo Parcelli From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 2 18:02:11 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R. Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 18:02:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetics of History Part I References: <3B1959F7.6190@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3B196263.5EC5@ix.netcom.com> correction not "VA Halls." Should read "American Legion Halls." R.Gancie/C.Parcelli wrote: > > As every American schoolchild learns, in 1933, the year Adolph Hitler > was appointed Chancellor of Germany, a committee of wealthy bankers and > industrialists, calling themselves the American Liberty League, > attempted a coup against the duly elected government of Franklin D. > Roosevelt. The man chosen to lead this coup was Major General Smedley > Butler, Marine Corps Retired, and the only person to > ever be awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor twice. Smedley Butler > was immensely popular among veterans having giving over a 1000 speeches > at VA halls and supporting the Bonus Army when it staged its > demonstrations here in Washington. (Ironically, Douglas MacAuthor was > the second choice to lead the coup, the man who had driven the Bonus > Army veterans from Washington DC at the order of Herbert Hoover.) > > But Butler was the wrong man to involve in a conspiracy to commit > treason. He solicited the help of a journalist, Paul Comly French, to > gather coorborating evidence, and then went public with the plot. > Congressional hearings were held and the plot and American Liberty > League were exposed. > > The American Liberty league had brokerage head Grayson M.-P. Murphy as > its treasurer and Robert Clark as one of its financiers as well as John > W. Davis, names that then meant wealth and power then but are largely > forgotten today. Contributors to the A.L.L. included representatives of > the Morgan, Du Pont, Rockefeller, Pew, and Mellon interests. Directors > of The league included Al Smith (yes, the Democratic presidential > candidate in 1928) and John J. Raskob a board member and official at Du > pont. The League later formed affiliations with pro-Fascist, anti-labor, > and anti-semitic organizations. > > This was not to be a gentle coup. As French testified, "We discussed the > question of arms and equipment, and Maguire suggested that they could be > obtained from the Remington Arms Co., on credit through the Du Ponts. > I do not think at the time he mentioned the connections of Du Ponts > with the American Liberty League...but he skirted all around the idea > that that was the back door; one of the Du Ponts is on the board of > directors of the American Liberty league and they own a controlling > interest in the Remington Arms Co....He said the General would not have > any trouble enlisting 500,000 men." > > For years the Congress would release only a heavily censored version of > the hearings. The corporate press protected the conspirators because it > was financially supported by them and in some owned by the conspirators. > Butler charged, quite correctly as history has demonstrated, that "the > capitalist-controlled press suppressed facts unfavorable to America's > powerul corporations." (see Archer.) Of course, no one involved in the > plot was put before a firing squad for treason. The elites were not even > questioned. > > End Part One > > Carlo Parcelli From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 2 19:05:01 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R. Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 19:05:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Poetics of History Part II Message-ID: <3B19711D.5C26@ix.netcom.com> The plot to overthrow the administraion of Franklin Roosevelt in a military coup was the backdrop for Major General Smedley Butler's most famous public statement--his I WAS A RACKETEER FOR CAPITIALISM speech--which he delivered during testimony before Congress in 1935. It must have given the General particular satisfaction to rattle off the names of some of the eminent coup leaders before a congressional subcommittee even while the perpetrators cranked up their public realtions machines in the form of expanded grants for public libraries and the arts. Butler said: "I spent 33 years and 4 months in active service as a member of our country's most agile military force--the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from a second lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period I spent most of my time being a high-class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the bankers. I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now [after being approached by Maguire about the coup] I am sure of it. Like all members of the military profession I never had an original thought until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of the higher ups. This is typical of everyone in the military service. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American Republics for the benefit of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-12. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American Sugar interests in 1916. I helped get Honduras 'right' for American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested. During those year, I had, as the boys in the back room always say, a swell racket. I was rewarded with honors, medals, promotions. Looking back on it, I feel I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three city districts. We Marines operated on three continents." The General wrote a short book called "War Is A Racket" which is a prescription for ending all war by taking the profits out of it. End of Part II Carlo Parcelli From moira_russell at hotmail.com Sat Jun 2 22:03:40 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 18:03:40 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetics of History Part I Message-ID: Shouldn't this be on alt.politics.com or something similar? Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From moira_russell at hotmail.com Sat Jun 2 22:07:06 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 18:07:06 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Poetics of History Part II Message-ID: OK, if there's a part III, you're going to hear a really loud echoing >KLUNK<. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sun Jun 3 12:07:22 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R. Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 12:07:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetics of History Part I References: Message-ID: <3B1A60BA.6F5F@ix.netcom.com> > > Shouldn't this be on alt.politics.com or something similar? Not necessarily: RE: Pound, Olson, Zukofsky et al e.g. the materials thereof. > > Moira Russell > Seattle, WA > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames at aol.com Sun Jun 3 15:22:28 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 15:22:28 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetics of History Imparted? / "Getting Over" Message-ID: <7e.15e2f5e8.284be874@aol.com> Here's a poem by Luis J Rodriguez... Getting Over A sword to a word --this is what poetry's about crazed with clarity, held in the prism of an iris, perpetually pregnant and getting over. (from _Trochemoche_,Curbstone Press, 1998) From anastasios at hell.com Sun Jun 3 16:35:16 2001 From: anastasios at hell.com (Anastasios Kozaitis) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 16:35:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] the stuff of poetry Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010603163432.009eb8e0@mail.verizon.net> UP RISING: PASSAGES 25 Now Johnson would go up to join the great simulacra of men, Hitler and Stalin, to work his fame with planes roaring out from Guam over Asia, all America become a sea of toiling men stirrd at his will, which would be a bloated thing, drawing from the underbelly of the nation such blood and dreams as swell the idiot psyche out of its courses into an elemental thing until his name stinks with burning meat and heapt honors And men wake to see that they are used like things spent in a great potlatch, this Texas barbecue of Asia, Africa, and all the Americas, And the professional military behind him, thinking to use him as they thought to use Hitler without losing control of their business of war, But the mania, the ravening eagle of America as Lawrence saw him "bird of men that are masters, lifting the rabbit-blood of the myriads up into. . into something terrible, gone beyond bounds, or As Blake saw America in figures of fire and blood raging, ... in what image? the ominous roar in the air, the omnipotent wings, the all-American boy in the cockpit loosing his flow of napalm, below in the jungles "any life at all or sign of life his target, drawing now not with crayons in his secret room the burning of homes and the torture of mothers and fathers and children, their hair a-flame, screaming in agony, but in the line of duty, for the might and enduring fame of Johnson, for the victory of American will over its victims, releasing his store of destruction over the enemy, in terror and hatred of all communal things, communion, of communism. has raised from the private rooms of small-town bosses and businessmen, from the council chambers of the gangs that run the great cities, swollen with the votes of millions, from the fearful hearts of good people in the suburbs turning the savory meat over the charcoal burners and heaping their barbecue plates with more than they can eat, from the closed meeting-rooms of regents of universities and sessions of profiteers - back of the scene: the atomic stockpile; the vials of synthesized diseases eager biologists have developt over half a century dreaming of the bodies of mothers and fathers and children and hated rivals swollen with new plagues, measles grown enormous, influenzas perfected; and the gases of despair, confusion of the senses, mania, inducing terror of the universe, coma, existential wounds, that chemists we have met at cocktail parties, passt daily and with a happy "Good Day on the way to classes or work, have workt to make war too terrible for men to wage- raised this secret entity of America's hatred of Europe, of Africa, of Asia, the deep hatred for the old world that had driven generations of America out of itself, and for the alien world, the new world about him, that might have been Paradise but was before his eyes already cleard back in a holocaust of burning Indians, trees and grasslands, reduced to his real estate, his projects of exploitation and profitable wastes, this specter that in the beginning Adams and Jefferson feard and knew would corrupt the very body of the nation and all our sense of our common humanity, this black bile of old evils arisen anew, takes over the vanity of Johnson; and the very glint of Satan's eyes from the pit of the hell of America's unacknowledged, unrepented crimes that I saw in Goldwater's eyes now shines from the eyes of the President in the swollen head of the nation. --Robert Duncan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From moira_russell at hotmail.com Sun Jun 3 22:00:18 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 18:00:18 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Poetics of History Part II Message-ID: OK, I feel I have been really misinterpreted. Before I get drowned in the floods of political poetry which are promising to roll in, I *did not* say politics has nothing to do with poetry, nor that we should not discuss politics here (which has already happened), nor that there is no such thing as political poetry (whatever I happen to think of its quality, or lack thereof). What my post meant was, if I want to read Usenet-"quality" posts on politics....I will go there. Apparently this was lost on a number of people. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From JforJames at aol.com Sun Jun 3 22:04:04 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 22:04:04 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] World Haiku Review Message-ID: > 19/05/01 IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT Re: Official Launch of The World Haiku Club is pleased to announce the official launch >of its world-wide comprehensive online haiku quarterly "World Haiku >Review". We would like to invite you cordially to take a look at it at: >http://www.worldhaikureview.org This is the first issue of the magazine >but it is only a prototype. However, we have done our best to make it as >complete as possible. Because of the enormous scale of this undertaking, >World Haiku Review will be phased in stage by stage for the first four >issues. We would welcome your comments and feedback in order to improve >the magazine constantly. We also would like to welcome your increased >participation in developing the magazine. It's a dynamic and exciting >magazine and will grow and evolve as much or as little as you put >yourselves into. It aims at providing a free, forward-looking, friendly >and creative culture without the fear of negativity. It seeks the highest >standards and quality and uphold proven lasting poetic values but will >not be afraid of encouraging innovation, experiments and initiatives by >new talent. Please consider a link from your site to World Haiku >Review. Kengin, Susumu Takiguchi Managing Editor, World Haiku Review & >Chairman, The World Haiku Club Debi Bender Editor-in-Chief, World Haiku >Review & Development Advisor, The World Haiku Club The Editorial Team, >World Haiku Review World Haiku Club http://www.worldhaikuclub.org World >Haiku Review: http://www.worldhaikureview.org eigohaiku: >http://www.alc.co.jp/com/eigohaiku/ > From anastasios at hell.com Sun Jun 3 23:10:12 2001 From: anastasios at hell.com (Anastasios Kozaitis) Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 23:10:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Poetics of History Part II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010603230936.009fcec0@mail.verizon.net> I don't see the difference. That's what my post meant. At 06:00 PM 6/3/01 -0800, you wrote: >OK, I feel I have been really misinterpreted. > >Before I get drowned in the floods of political poetry which are promising >to roll in, I *did not* say politics has nothing to do with poetry, nor >that we should not discuss politics here (which has already happened), nor >that there is no such thing as political poetry (whatever I happen to >think of its quality, or lack thereof). > >What my post meant was, if I want to read Usenet-"quality" posts on >politics....I will go there. > >Apparently this was lost on a number of people. > >Moira Russell >Seattle, WA >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu Mon Jun 4 08:50:09 2001 From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Amber Prentiss) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 08:50:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Poetics of History Part II Message-ID: I wouldn't worry about it. Nothing ever rolls in anymore. (Woo. Summer.) -Amber -----Original Message----- From: Moira Russell To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 6/3/2001 10:00 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Poetics of History Part II OK, I feel I have been really misinterpreted. Before I get drowned in the floods of political poetry which are promising to roll in, I *did not* say politics has nothing to do with poetry, nor that we should not discuss politics here (which has already happened), nor that there is no such thing as political poetry (whatever I happen to think of its quality, or lack thereof). What my post meant was, if I want to read Usenet-"quality" posts on politics....I will go there. Apparently this was lost on a number of people. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From TerryP17 at aol.com Mon Jun 4 10:56:10 2001 From: TerryP17 at aol.com (TerryP17 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 10:56:10 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetics of History: The Final Act Message-ID: <74.b458e14.284cfb8a@aol.com> What is this crap? And what does it have to do with poetry? I'm sure Maestro Parcelli will be gracing us next with the subversive history of the Popular Front in the 1930s, eh? Purge. --Terry Ponick From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 4 11:43:41 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R. Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 11:43:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Poetics of History Part III Message-ID: <3B1BACAD.20FC@ix.netcom.com> One of the first things every Harvard MBA hopeful learns is that in 1928, Edward Bernays, the father of modern marketing and public relations, published a book called Propaganda. Not only did it serve as a guide for controlling consumer habits for corporate America, but its tenets were also embraced by the Nazi propaganda machine, and it became a sort of universal bible for the manipulation of the "democratic" electoral process worldwide. Chapter I, Organizing Chaos, begins: "The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of [e.g. Edward Bernays]... Our invisible governors are, in many cases, unaware of the identity of their fellow members in the inner cabinet... ...Whatever attitude one chooses to take toward this condition, it remains a fact that in almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons...who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires that control the public mind, who harness old social forces [and biases and prejudices I might add] and contrive new ways to bond and guide the world." Bernays operated in many economic and political theaters. He did everything from launch the ad campaigns to accelerate smoking among women in the 1920's to doing the public relations work for the U.S. State Department in preparation for the CIA directed coup against the democratically elected Arbenz government in Guatemala in 1954. The latter was performed on behalf of the United Fruit Co., later to be known as United Brands. The flexibility of his methodology is due, in part, to the then new-found ability to, for the first time, collect discrete and quantifiable data on large populations. Further, quantification was the fait accompli for discretion, one hardly having any utility without the other. From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 4 12:14:06 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R. Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 12:14:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Poetics of History: Part VI John Donne Message-ID: <3B1BB3CE.3F02@ix.netcom.com> [Connecting ideogrammically with the Edward Bernays entry that heretofore only appeared on subsubpoetics at listbot.com] During its entire existence between 1606 and 1624, the Virginia Company employed preachers to deliver sermons to shareholders and prospective investors. One of those preachers so employed was the great metaphysical poet, John Donne. Donne was paid by the franchise in cash and possibly stock. To hard sell the economic benefits of the colonies, John Donne, the preacher, relied heavily on Christian eschatology and providentialism. But as a poet, Donne aroused interest in colonial development by employing a means familiar to Bernays and Madison Avenue, sex. For example, in his Elegy XIX, Going to Bed, Donne writes: License my roving hands, and let them go, Before, behind, between, above, below. O my America! my new-found-land, My kingdome, safeliest when with one man man'd, My Myne of precious stones, My Emperie, How blest am I in this discovering thee! To enter in these bonds, is to be free; From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 4 15:01:50 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R. Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 15:01:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Poetics of History Part V Message-ID: <3B1BDB1E.7622@ix.netcom.com> Connected to Donne ideogram by "Christian eschatology", Age of "Discovery", scientific "discovery". Note Sherwood Rowland quote at end. Without a sense of history, methodological reflection or even simple irony, and falling into a self-parody born of arrogance, Paul Gross and Norman Leavitt wrote in their 1994 book, Higher Superstition: "The "hot" issues in environmentalism--the possibility of major global warming, the ozone "hole," species impoverishment, overpopulation and its consequences--are issues that would be unknown and unknowable but for the accomplishments of professional science." Sherwood Rowland, one of the two individuals, who did the original research on the effects of chlorofluorocarbons on the atmosphere ("the ozone 'hole'"), once remarked to his wife upon returning home from work one evening: "The work is going well, but it looks like it might be the end of the world." Thus, scientific eschatology, with all of its claims to the "real", has replaced religious eschatology. Thus, a "real", an historical, eschatology is born out of what Adorno calls an "ahistorical rationalism." CP From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 4 16:07:52 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R. Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 16:07:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Poetics of History Part IV Message-ID: <3B1BEA98.6536@ix.netcom.com> [eschatology-the STUDY of the end time] Of special interest to women and minorities, the Barrow and Tipler quote at the end of this email. Because of the broad commercial applications in industry, the U.S. Congress and the courts will, in the near future, be taking up the question of whether or not to grant "human rights" [e.g. legal status as individuals much as corporations possess now] to automata, or robots. Of course, automata have been around for millenia, noticably flourishing in Europe during the Renaissance and Enlightenment. The advent of modern automata, that is ones with commercial viability as well as anthropomorphic associations, can be in large part attributed to the work of the mathematician John von Neumann. In his book, Theory of Self-Reproducing Automata published in 1966 (preceded by several papers beginning two decades earlier) Von Neumann realizes in a viable scientific form, robots which not only reproduce themselves, but also are programmed, evolutionarily, to colonize space, literally gobbling there way across the universe. Of course, they will have long replaced mankind by then and as Moravec, Barrow, Tipler, Casti, Gelertner et al insist are the "natural" evolutionary heirs of our species. Von Neumann in his book formulates the physical structure of his self-reproducing automata. They are to have eight kinds of parts: A "stimulus organ", a "coincidence organ", an "inhibitory organ", a "stimuli producer", a "fusing organ", a "cutting organ" ["Ouch!"], a "muscle", and a "rigid member". Thus, these automata reproduce. During this exegesis describing the logical evolutionary heirs of mankind occurs this apparently unintended humorous aside: "A rigid member doesn't carry any stimuli." In other words "the rigid member" plays no role in the reproductive process. Thus, our physicists have become legal ethicists. To this end, John Barrow and Frank Tipler wrote in their 1986 "classic" published by Oxford Univ. Press: "As we have shown at length in Chapters 3 and 8, an advanced von Neumann probe would be an intelligent being in its own right, only made of metal rather than flesh and blood. The rise in human civilization has been marked by a decline in racism[?]--which include freedom--to a wider and wider class of people: in fact, the arguments one hears today against considering intelligent computers to be persons and against giving them human rights have precise parallels in the nienteenth-century argumant against giving blacks and women full human rights." Thus, this historically suspect and highly reactionary statement couches itself in the progressive rhetoric of science. From JforJames at aol.com Mon Jun 4 19:21:39 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 19:21:39 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Scully Message-ID: <5b.16eae1f1.284d7203@aol.com> Couple of thoughts: I hope Carlo will tie his posts into "poetry" more directly. Still, there is always the opportunity to change the subject. Or to spin the topic to your own predilection... from James Scully's "Remarks on Political Poetry" (_Line Break_, Bay Press, '88) there is a truth behind the assertion that poetry and politics don't mix, but one so warped it turns on itself. The truth is that much of what is called political poetry...is hackwork. From this comes the generalization that politics destroys poetry. Yet isn't that an arbitrary conclusion? Most any kind of poetry is hackwork, is slipshod, undemanding of itself. The work of idle hands that are maybe not idle enough. When you come upon an inept love poem you aren't likely to conclude that love and poetry don't mix. You may think the poet a bad poet, or even a callow person. And you may pass judgment on the work. But you won't jump to generalizations about the incompatibility of love and poetry. From moira_russell at hotmail.com Mon Jun 4 19:39:24 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 15:39:24 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Scully Message-ID: >from James Scully's "Remarks on Political Poetry" (_Line Break_, Bay Press, >'88) >there is a truth behind the assertion that poetry and politics don't mix, Well, again, I never said anything like this. I didn't say anything about political *poetry.* I'm talking about political *rants,* in which I can see no connection to poetry, of any kind, for all the citations to Pound Yeats Duncan Lowell or whomever. And which suck up more bandwidth faster than 100 lab rats jumping about on a typewriter hoping they'll be rewarded with some more crack. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From wasanthony at yahoo.com Mon Jun 4 20:03:48 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 17:03:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Scully In-Reply-To: <5b.16eae1f1.284d7203@aol.com> Message-ID: <20010605000348.75400.qmail@web12102.mail.yahoo.com> --- JforJames at aol.com wrote: > Couple of thoughts: I hope Carlo will tie his posts into "poetry" > more > directly. Still, there is always the opportunity to change the > subject. > Or to spin the topic to your own predilection... > > from James Scully's "Remarks on Political Poetry" (_Line Break_, Bay > Press, > '88) > > there is a truth behind the assertion that poetry and politics don't > mix, but > one so warped it turns on itself. The truth is that much of what is > called > political poetry...is hackwork. From this comes the generalization > that > politics destroys poetry. Yet isn't that an arbitrary conclusion? > Most any > kind of poetry is hackwork, is slipshod, undemanding of itself. The > work of > idle hands that are maybe not idle enough. When you come upon an > inept love > poem you aren't likely to conclude that love and poetry don't mix. > You may > think the poet a bad poet, or even a callow person. And you may pass > judgment > on the work. But you won't jump to generalizations about the > incompatibility > of love and poetry. > Ah, my heart jumped when I saw the subject line: "Scully." And I thought it was "Scully" from "X-Files." Alas, another love poem bit the dust. But, this Scully's analogy is flawed. A love poem does not espouse a particular kind of love, a "political poem" does. of course there are the politics of love. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From wasanthony at yahoo.com Mon Jun 4 20:05:34 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 17:05:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Scully In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010605000534.95358.qmail@web12108.mail.yahoo.com> --- Moira Russell wrote: > > >from James Scully's "Remarks on Political Poetry" (_Line Break_, Bay > Press, > >'88) > > >there is a truth behind the assertion that poetry and politics don't > mix, > > Well, again, I never said anything like this. > > I didn't say anything about political *poetry.* > > I'm talking about political *rants,* in which I can see no connection > to > poetry, of any kind, for all the citations to Pound Yeats Duncan > Lowell or > whomever. > > And which suck up more bandwidth faster than 100 lab rats jumping > about on a > typewriter hoping they'll be rewarded with some more crack. > Moira, that last sentence is imminently quotable. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From moira_russell at hotmail.com Mon Jun 4 20:08:27 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 16:08:27 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Scully Message-ID: Jim wrote: >Moira, that last sentence is imminently quotable. Hey, feel free. I think I started making remarks about " sucks up bandwidth like a lab rat does crack" a short while after I first got onto the Internet (one of my first trips was actually on a Mac Classic, so.....) and it's just gotten more baroque over the years. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu Mon Jun 4 20:39:49 2001 From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Amber Prentiss) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 20:39:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Scully Message-ID: They don't espouse a particular kind of love? If a poem started with 'Steve Buscemi is beautiful/ a gift to the screen,' how does it not espouse the love of Steve Buscemi (despite the hack quotient of the line)? 'Espousing a particular view' seems to mean 'having an opinion.' Political poetry espouses a particular kind of view, sure, but so would a poem praising the field mouse over the city rat. I don't see how the analogy so obviously fails. -Amber -----Original Message----- From: jcervantes To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 6/4/2001 8:03 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Scully Ah, my heart jumped when I saw the subject line: "Scully." And I thought it was "Scully" from "X-Files." Alas, another love poem bit the dust. But, this Scully's analogy is flawed. A love poem does not espouse a particular kind of love, a "political poem" does. of course there are the politics of love. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From wasanthony at yahoo.com Mon Jun 4 21:22:54 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 18:22:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Scully In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010605012254.58228.qmail@web12101.mail.yahoo.com> --- Amber Prentiss wrote: > > They don't espouse a particular kind of love? If a poem started with > 'Steve > Buscemi is beautiful/ a gift to the screen,' how does it not espouse > the > love of Steve Buscemi (despite the hack quotient of the line)? Possibly because "Steve Buscemi" is a metaphor or symbol or a particular applicable to a more generalized person? - Jim > 'Espousing a > particular view' seems to mean 'having an opinion.' Political poetry > espouses a particular kind of view, sure, but so would a poem > praising the > field mouse over the city rat. I don't see how the analogy so > obviously > fails. > > -Amber > -----Original Message----- > From: jcervantes > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: 6/4/2001 8:03 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Scully > > > > Ah, my heart jumped when I saw the subject line: "Scully." And I > thought it was "Scully" from "X-Files." Alas, another love poem bit > the dust. > > But, this Scully's analogy is flawed. A love poem does not espouse a > particular kind of love, a "political poem" does. of course there > are > the politics of love. > > - Jim > ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Mon Jun 4 21:51:52 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 20:51:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] JCO as ED Message-ID: And now for something completely different. . . . How about a picture of Joyce Carol Oates posing as Emily Dickinson? And you thought she had no sense of humor. http://storm.usfca.edu/~southerr/dickinson.html David Graham __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu Mon Jun 4 22:08:25 2001 From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Amber Prentiss) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 22:08:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Scully Message-ID: What distinguishes a political poem from other sorts of poems? A specific event of reference? A certain sort of tone? Real events, real people? What is it? Or is 'political poetry' the name brand poems with political tones that one thinks don't work get? -Amber -----Original Message----- From: jcervantes To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 6/4/2001 9:22 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Scully --- Amber Prentiss wrote: > > They don't espouse a particular kind of love? If a poem started with > 'Steve > Buscemi is beautiful/ a gift to the screen,' how does it not espouse > the > love of Steve Buscemi (despite the hack quotient of the line)? Possibly because "Steve Buscemi" is a metaphor or symbol or a particular applicable to a more generalized person? - Jim > 'Espousing a > particular view' seems to mean 'having an opinion.' Political poetry > espouses a particular kind of view, sure, but so would a poem > praising the > field mouse over the city rat. I don't see how the analogy so > obviously > fails. > > -Amber > -----Original Message----- > From: jcervantes > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: 6/4/2001 8:03 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Scully > > > > Ah, my heart jumped when I saw the subject line: "Scully." And I > thought it was "Scully" from "X-Files." Alas, another love poem bit > the dust. > > But, this Scully's analogy is flawed. A love poem does not espouse a > particular kind of love, a "political poem" does. of course there > are > the politics of love. > > - Jim > ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From johnbrehm at mindspring.com Mon Jun 4 22:44:59 2001 From: johnbrehm at mindspring.com (john brehm) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 22:44:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Scully References: <20010605000348.75400.qmail@web12102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002c01c0ed69$83f69c20$cb1ef7a5@oemcomputer> "But, this Scully's analogy is flawed. A love poem does not espouse a particular kind of love, a "political poem" does. of course there are the politics of love." I'm not sure about esposals of kinds, and there are probably as many kinds of love as of politics, but I'd guess the great love poems outnumber the great political poems at a raito of about 100 to 1. Which might in fact prove that love is a more fertile source than politics. John Brehm From moira_russell at hotmail.com Mon Jun 4 22:47:41 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 18:47:41 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Scully Message-ID: Aha -- now clearly if one were to write, or read, "Dana Scully, how she enhances the glow emanating from my TV screen" (like Mr. Cervantes, I was disappointed not to see a reference to my favorite grown-up woman on TV) one would clearly be stating an anti-FBI and perhaps even anti-statist viewpoint....? Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From moira_russell at hotmail.com Mon Jun 4 22:59:51 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 18:59:51 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] JCO as ED Message-ID: David Graham offered: >How about a picture of Joyce Carol Oates posing as Emily Dickinson? You know, I've recently had to give up caffeine because of a stomach ailment, and I think this will do for a nice replacement in the mornings. I'll just put it right next to my alarm clock. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From moira_russell at hotmail.com Mon Jun 4 23:53:24 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 19:53:24 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Scully Message-ID: John Brehm offered: >I'd guess the great love poems outnumber the great political poems at a >raito of about 100 to 1. Which might in fact prove that love is a more >fertile source than politics. You know, we could start calling this the Gonne-McBride/Yeats debate....("Here's another love poem for you." "It's a beautiful poem, Willie, but you really should be writing about Ireland." "Here's a love poem for you in the guise of Ireland." "It's lovely, Willie, *but*....") Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Mon Jun 4 23:54:40 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 20:54:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Scully Message-ID: <20010605035440.80CB336F9@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From mbales at cybergate.net Tue Jun 5 07:25:57 2001 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 07:25:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Scully In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Aha -- now clearly if one were to write, or read, "Dana Scully, how > she enhances the glow emanating from my TV screen" (like Mr. > Cervantes, I was disappointed not to see a reference to my favorite > grown-up woman on TV) one would clearly be stating an anti-FBI and > perhaps even anti-statist viewpoint....?<< Well, it would depend on more than just that much before a political intent would be clear -- wouldn't it? After all, if the poem continues along the lines it began it could be a wet-dream sex poem and have nothing to do with the FBI at all. mbales at cybergate.net http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From wasanthony at yahoo.com Tue Jun 5 08:36:24 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 05:36:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] JCO as ED In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010605123624.30024.qmail@web12108.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Graham wrote: > And now for something completely different. . . . > > How about a picture of Joyce Carol Oates posing as Emily Dickinson? > And > you thought she had no sense of humor. > > http://storm.usfca.edu/~southerr/dickinson.html > Gee, thanks, David. If teaching summer school is not bad enough, now I have that image to haunt me. But, let's have a cup of tea after I'm done with my faint. - Jim p.s. - now Gillian Anderson must do battle with JCO/ED to protect my psyche! ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu Tue Jun 5 08:47:43 2001 From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Amber Prentiss) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 08:47:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Scully Message-ID: Well, ignoring the 'what's the criteria for great?' question, that would depend on how many of each kind of poem have been written and who wrote them. There have obviously been times in history when criticizing one's country's leadership would be a particularly bad and short-sighted idea. Are there even as many political poems as there are love poems? (Whatever the hell a political poem is...) -Amber -----Original Message----- From: john brehm To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 6/4/2001 10:44 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Scully "But, this Scully's analogy is flawed. A love poem does not espouse a particular kind of love, a "political poem" does. of course there are the politics of love." I'm not sure about esposals of kinds, and there are probably as many kinds of love as of politics, but I'd guess the great love poems outnumber the great political poems at a raito of about 100 to 1. Which might in fact prove that love is a more fertile source than politics. John Brehm _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From rlong at jcn1.com Tue Jun 5 09:02:15 2001 From: rlong at jcn1.com (Richard Long) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 08:02:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Summer Issue of 2RV Message-ID: <5.0.2.1.2.20010605080137.00a3d420@pop3.slu.edu> It's summer and therefore time for a new issue of The 2River View, this one with new poems by John Amen, Michelle Cameron, Glenda Cooper, Jeffrey Ewing, Raymond Farr, Kris Kahn, Anne Kellas, Rebecca Lu Kiernan, Tom Sheehan, and George Wallace, and art by Mark Flowers. As usual, you can read it by going to http://www.2River.org Richard From jdavis at panix.com Tue Jun 5 09:31:34 2001 From: jdavis at panix.com (Jordan Davis) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 09:31:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems on Affairs of State In-Reply-To: Message-ID: For a substantial archive of political poems, check out the multi-volume anthology of Augustan verse from Yale UP with the title in the header. I don't know about those 100 to 1 odds John Brehm was offering, but there _is_ a substantial poetic tradition in this country that seems to operate under the assumption that anything you can be the right ratio of serious about can be the subject for a poem. What's the ratio? I think it's listed in the Wall Street Journal. If you can get over the unnecessary fake saintliness, John Godfrey's new book Push the Mule is at least as strong a collection of late NY School prose poetry as Lewis Warsh's totally great The Origin of the World. When Anselm Berrigan's Pictures for Private Devotion and Steve Malmude's The Bundle get through the printers, 2001'll be an official annus mirabilis for the quadrant to the SE of Union Square. Jordan Davis From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Jun 5 11:43:25 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 11:43:25 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Scully Message-ID: In a message dated 6/4/01 7:04:46 PM Central Daylight Time, wasanthony at yahoo.com writes: > Ah, my heart jumped when I saw the subject line: "Scully." And I > thought it was "Scully" from "X-Files." Alas, another love poem bit > the dust. > > "The House of Mirth" will cure you permanently. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Jun 5 11:41:34 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 11:41:34 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] The Poetics of History Part IV Message-ID: In a message dated 6/4/01 3:08:39 PM Central Daylight Time, alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes: > [eschatology-the STUDY of the end time] > Of special interest to women and minorities, the Barrow and Tipler quote > at the end of this email. > > I once ran into a former creative writing student, a woman d'une certain age, handing out eschatological pamphlets. She belonged to an organization called The End-Time Handmaidens. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbales at cybergate.net Tue Jun 5 12:14:25 2001 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 12:14:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Scully In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >Moira, that last sentence is imminently quotable.<< Eminently quotable, too. mbales at cybergate.net http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Tue Jun 5 01:48:51 2001 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 00:48:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] West Chester Poetry Conference Message-ID: Taking off tomorrow for the West Chester Poetry Conference in Pennsylvania. Anyone on this list going to be there? If so, let's finally meet eye to eye. Paul Lake From moira_russell at hotmail.com Tue Jun 5 13:33:22 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 09:33:22 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] West Chester Poetry Conference Message-ID: Paul Lake wrote: >Taking off tomorrow for the West Chester Poetry Conference in Pennsylvania. You mean I to I? I would have been there, but my parents have chosen that very weekend to come up for my mother's (coughcoughcough)th birthday. Bring us some pictures? Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 5 13:53:38 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R. Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 13:53:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Poetics of History Part VII Message-ID: <3B1D1CA2.59C7@ix.netcom.com> At the appropriately named Trinity site in the Jornada del Muerto valley, where the first test of an atomic weapon took place, eschatology leapt the fire wall between religion and science. At the site of the blast, J. Robert Oppenheimer, Director of Los Alamos, recalled a line from the Bhagavad-Gita: "Now, I am become Death, destroyer of worlds." The reports of the blast by others at the site are remarkably uniform: Robert Serber: "An overwhelmingly white flash!" Philip Morrison: "Overwhelmingly bright light!" Emilio Segre: "Unbelievably brilliant flash!" For an instant, they were all like Sauls of their own agency. The poetic/ideogrammic possibilities are vast. Scientific eschatology contains within it all the claims of science as regards a special relationship to the 'real', to the world of physical phenomena, to Nature. But it is, in part, the destruction of Nature that drives the current eschatology. Though religious prophecy of an end time is not a strictly a result of sin or sinfulness, man's flawed nature does play a role here. Is there a series of critical flaws in the scientific method, that has forced it, historically, to take up eschatology of its own methodology? Are the mathematico-reductive limits of the experimental method somehow critical here? The 'real' and imaginative, e.g. poetic, questions, go on and on. This is the kind of thematic material the great modernists, Pound, Olson, Zukofsky, Tolson, Jones, Joyce, Johnson, Duncan identified. Then there are perceptual questions concerning paradox. And if you want to loop around back to Smedley Butler, we could point out that Columbus was an eschatologist who wrote his Profecias, and claimed in his letters that the 'Indians' must be enslaved in order to convert them quickly because the 'end time' was upon us. The eschatological nature of capital because after all what binds Columbus and the 2 billion dollars (1940's dollars!) it cost to construct the atomic bomb, but corporate industry. From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jun 5 14:23:05 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 14:23:05 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Scully Message-ID: > John Brehm offered: > > >I'd guess the great love poems outnumber the great political poems at a > >raito of about 100 to 1. Which might in fact prove that love is a more > >fertile source than politics. > But is it safe to say that the pool of love poems written is at least 100 times larger than the pool of political poems? Statistics lie...we need a "poetry think tank" to do a controlled study of such matters. Finnegan From johnbrehm at mindspring.com Tue Jun 5 15:13:06 2001 From: johnbrehm at mindspring.com (johnbrehm at mindspring.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 15:13:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Scully Message-ID: > But is it safe to say that the pool of love poems written is at least 100 times larger than the pool of political poems? Statistics lie...we need a "poetry think tank" to do a controlled study of such matters. Finnegan OK. I just pulled that number out of thin air, but my point, which I think is generally true, is that there are many more great love poems in the English language than there are great political poems. No doubt more have been attempted, but that in itself suggests that love and its attendant miseries is a more attractive subject, for whatever reason, than politics and its miseries. It's an old debate, this one, and my position is I think everybody should write politcal poems if they feel impelled to do so and not if they don't. Fiction, non-fiction, and drama do however seem to me genres better suited to political energies than poetry is. On another subject, I'm curious to know what people here think of David Antin's work. I just read his long poem, The Noise of Time, in the Boston Review and loved it. John Brehm _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From johnbrehm at mindspring.com Tue Jun 5 15:49:53 2001 From: johnbrehm at mindspring.com (johnbrehm at mindspring.com) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 15:49:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Scully Message-ID: Neruda is one of the rare poets who wrote both great love poems and great political poems. Who would be some others? From cstroffo at earthlink.net Tue Jun 5 15:18:53 2001 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (chris stroffolino) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 15:18:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems on Affairs of State References: Message-ID: <3B1D309C.ABE064A3@earthlink.net> I like the necessary fake saintliness... c > > > If you can get over the unnecessary fake saintliness, John Godfrey's new > book Push the Mule is at least as strong a collection of late NY School > prose poetry as the quadrant to the SE of Union Square. > > Jordan Davis > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jdavis at panix.com Tue Jun 5 16:02:56 2001 From: jdavis at panix.com (Jordan Davis) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 16:02:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems on Affairs of State In-Reply-To: <3B1D309C.ABE064A3@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Yeah, it was a selling point for his old neighbor Allen Ginsberg too. Maybe it's just that building, maybe it's the only way out of the NY school "insecure/smart-guy disguised as funny-guy" rap. Like, J > > I like the necessary fake saintliness... > > c > > > > > > > > If you can get over the unnecessary fake saintliness, John Godfrey's new > > book Push the Mule is at least as strong a collection of late NY School > > prose poetry as the quadrant to the SE of Union Square. > > > > Jordan Davis > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From cstroffo at earthlink.net Tue Jun 5 15:34:51 2001 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (chris stroffolino) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 15:34:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Scully References: Message-ID: <3B1D345A.5B3D5C68@earthlink.net> Yes, John, I agree--- "Captain's Verses" in particular, even in English translation, (which won me over after being skeptical about "20 Love...Despair") And I am would like to know if anybody has any suggestions (examples) in answer to your question.... especially as concerns American poetry, or at least perhaps offer a "take" on why there seems to be less convincing passion in Americans on love AND politics than in Neruda... C johnbrehm at mindspring.com wrote: > Neruda is one of the rare poets who wrote both great love poems and great political poems. Who would be some others? > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From moira_russell at hotmail.com Tue Jun 5 16:15:38 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 12:15:38 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Scully Message-ID: >Neruda is one of the rare poets who wrote both great love poems and great >political poems. Who would be some others? Yeats? I like Neruda's politics better though. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Jun 5 16:23:15 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 16:23:15 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] West Chester Poetry Conference Message-ID: In a message dated 6/5/01 11:58:40 AM Central Daylight Time, paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: > If so, let's finally meet eye to > eye. > > How about cheek to jowl? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wasanthony at yahoo.com Tue Jun 5 19:53:41 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 16:53:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Scully In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010605235341.91837.qmail@web12105.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/4/01 7:04:46 PM Central Daylight Time, > wasanthony at yahoo.com writes: > > > > Ah, my heart jumped when I saw the subject line: "Scully." And I > > thought it was "Scully" from "X-Files." Alas, another love poem > bit > > the dust. > > > > > > "The House of Mirth" will cure you permanently. > Ah, but why ruin a perfectly good fantasy. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From wasanthony at yahoo.com Tue Jun 5 19:59:15 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 16:59:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Scully In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010605235915.87917.qmail@web12106.mail.yahoo.com> --- johnbrehm at mindspring.com wrote: > > > On another subject, I'm curious to know what people here think of > David Antin's work. I just read his long poem, The Noise of Time, in > the Boston Review and loved it. > Ditto. Many lines could serve as summaries of threads on this list. I've inflicted summer school on myself and don't have the time or patience to copy out many lines as examples, but maybe you or someone else can do that. I find his kind of discursiveness more rewarding than that of Goldbarth or Weingarten. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From mbales at cybergate.net Tue Jun 5 21:34:41 2001 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 21:34:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Scully In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Neruda is one of the rare poets who wrote both great love poems and > great political poems. Who would be some others? Byron mbales at cybergate.net http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From wasanthony at yahoo.com Tue Jun 5 21:30:54 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 18:30:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] The Poetics of History Part VII In-Reply-To: <3B1D1CA2.59C7@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <20010606013054.85835.qmail@web12102.mail.yahoo.com> --- "R. Gancie/C.Parcelli" wrote: > At the appropriately named Trinity site in the Jornada del Muerto > valley, where the first test of an atomic weapon took place, > eschatology > leapt the fire wall between religion and science. At the site of the > blast, J. Robert Oppenheimer, Director of Los Alamos, recalled a line > from the Bhagavad-Gita: "Now, I am become Death, destroyer of > worlds." > > The reports of the blast by others at the site are remarkably > uniform: > > Robert Serber: "An overwhelmingly white flash!" > Philip Morrison: "Overwhelmingly bright light!" > Emilio Segre: "Unbelievably brilliant flash!" > > For an instant, they were all like Sauls of their own agency. > Your source for that, please? - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 5 22:51:18 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R. Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 22:51:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Poetics of History Part VII References: <20010606013054.85835.qmail@web12102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3B1D9AA6.727D@ix.netcom.com> JIm, The Oppenheimer quote and the cited comments by the other three physicists are common cited in the literature of the Manhattan Project. The Oppenheimer quote has been cited many times, even in TV documentaries. However, for purposes of my (PoHVII) email I used Richard Rhodes' The Making of the Atomic Bomb. All four citations also appear in my poem, Deconstructing the Demiurge: Tale of the Tribe, which appears abridged in FlashPoint online magazine at http://www.FLASHPOINTMAG.COM Anything outside the quotes is my own. CP jcervantes wrote: > > --- "R. Gancie/C.Parcelli" wrote: > > At the appropriately named Trinity site in the Jornada del Muerto > > valley, where the first test of an atomic weapon took place, > > eschatology > > leapt the fire wall between religion and science. At the site of the > > blast, J. Robert Oppenheimer, Director of Los Alamos, recalled a line > > from the Bhagavad-Gita: "Now, I am become Death, destroyer of > > worlds." > > > > The reports of the blast by others at the site are remarkably > > uniform: > > > > Robert Serber: "An overwhelmingly white flash!" > > Philip Morrison: "Overwhelmingly bright light!" > > Emilio Segre: "Unbelievably brilliant flash!" > > > > For an instant, they were all like Sauls of their own agency. > > > > Your source for that, please? > > - Jim > > ===== > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net > Salt River Review: > "Ripples" @ > Poetserv: > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Tue Jun 5 23:02:14 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 22:02:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Antin's "Noise" In-Reply-To: <20010605235915.87917.qmail@web12106.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: Haven't read it yet myself, but the curious should know that David Antin's poem "The Noise of Time" is available, all 583 lines of it, at a click of your mouse: http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR26.2/antin.html David Graham >--- johnbrehm at mindspring.com wrote: >> >> >> On another subject, I'm curious to know what people here think of >> David Antin's work. I just read his long poem, The Noise of Time, in >> the Boston Review and loved it. >> > >Ditto. Many lines could serve as summaries of threads on this list. >I've inflicted summer school on myself and don't have the time or >patience to copy out many lines as examples, but maybe you or someone >else can do that. I find his kind of discursiveness more rewarding >than that of Goldbarth or Weingarten. > >- Jim > > __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Wed Jun 6 01:23:58 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 00:23:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Political Poems Message-ID: I'm probably not alone in finding my eyes glazing over when the term "political poetry" arises--in my case, largely because there's always the danger of finding the critical tail wagging the poetic dog. This is one reason my heart leaps up whenever a text threatens to enter the discussion. I'll offer one in a minute. A few not too focused thoughts first. I'm not yet ready to agree that it's harder to write a political poem than a love poem, though the risks may be in some ways distinct. But even if there are some pitfalls peculiar to poems that engage public life, I suspect that many difficulties are shared with private lyrics: no matter what the subject, there's always the danger of insufficient dramatic detailing, tonal misfirings, sentimentality, smugness, predictability, etc. And I would agree with Carl Dennis, who in his book *Poetry as Persuasion* assumes that all the above are essentially rhetorical challenges to be met by any poet whatever the poem. Dennis does think that there are some problems associated especially with political poetry--and he devotes a chapter of his book to looking at them. The "most common kind of failure in political poetry," he writes, "involves party thinking. Public issues invite combative orthodoxies, with approved arguments and opinions. And poets who are not careful can easily be tempted to become advocates for a group rather than for themselves alone. The result is writing that sounds too much like propaganda--strident and preachy in tone, derivative in language, and predictable in outlook. Such a poem cannot persuade because it seems to have no one in particular standing behind it, no one willing to reject ready-made ideas and discover on his own what he actually believes." Dennis then mentions that recent American political poetry tends to be "an expression of disaffection with the politics of our political leaders and the values of the people who elected them." One peculiarity of such poetry is that such uniform dissent tends not toward originality but its opposite, he argues. And then he looks at a number of poems that he finds exemplary in maintaining various kinds of originality. Before I cite a poem, I'd like to throw out the question: is it true that most political poetry is oppositional in nature? When we hear the term, do we tend automatically to assume that it will be a discontented one? Is there such a thing in our time as a political poem of praise or celebration? *Has* publicly engaged poetry become synonymous with protest, dissent, witness, disaffection, etc.? Aside from works of dubious quality like Angelou's inaugural ode, can anyone think of a counter-example? Here's a poem, finally. It's from Mark Halliday's 1992 book *Tasker Street*, and Carl Dennis employs it as his final positive example. I should note that he does not make large claims for this poem: he calls it "a modest comic poem without grand anger or bitterness." Nonetheless he finds it effective in engaging public issues. I'd welcome any reactions to the poem, or to Dennis's book. David Graham ______________ Fox Point Health Clinic, 1974 In the waiting room this black woman maybe fifty sits down right beside me. Whiskey breath; pocked face. She looks over my shoulder at my notebook where I've been writing about Bjorn Borg in a poem whose point is that I should never cease striving in life. "That's beautiful." A minute later: "I don't see too good." A minute later: "I think I'm dying." So I have to really look at her. The Portuguese women waiting for the doctor don't seem to notice, they murmur placidly. My woman's eyes are round and dark. I say "I certainly hope not." She says "I'm all gone inside. Nothing but bones and ribs. "I've got three children. My older son lives in Gardenia California. My other son I don't know. My daughter she'll be eighteen she goes to St. Patrick's." Her eyes ask me to figure out what all this adds up to-- as if it's a technical puzzle and I'm the expert. I nod, and look down. She leans on me. "Every night I pray to God." She clutches my hand and keeps it. "I'm gonna tell you something. Love is beautiful." I nod. "Black is beautiful too" she says. I nod. She says "I'm not black, I'm only teasing brown." I make my eyes look into her eyes--best I can do; if she's teasing it's a dark shade of teasing. "I won't bug you anymore." She rises slowly and soberly walks out. The Portuguese women shake their heads as if they've seen my black woman do all this before. I have a sore throat, I wish they would vanish, simply vanish. But they don't; and gradually I work back toward Bjorn Borg whose clarity and dedication have seemed so fine, so pure, so white. --Mark Halliday, *Tasker* Street (U Mass Press, 1992): 59-60. __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Wed Jun 6 01:37:52 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 00:37:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurbage Message-ID: Mention of Mark Halliday reminds me that he is the originator of one of my all-time favorite book blurbs. At least, I assume he wrote it himself. The following appears on the back of the paperback edition of his collection *Selfwolf*. (U Chicago, 1999) ____________ If you took the honesty of D. H. Lawrence, the courage of Robin Hood, the mordant incisiveness of William Empson, the ambivalent tension of Dostoevsky, the verve of Kenneth Koch, and the pluck of next year's Wimbledon champion, and multiplied everything by seven, you might have one-third of the talent displayed in *Selfwolf*. Or you might have something else. Reading *Selfwolf* is like reading the e-mail from Whitman's unknown grandson to Pynchon's missing daughter, or vice versa. More readable than Hart Crane, more candid than Jorie Graham, and more up-to-date than Alexander Pope, Mark Halliday is either a new colossus on the scene of post-contemporary American poetry or an infinitesimal blip of male bourgeois anxiety. You be the judge. ___________ Anyone else feel like sharing favorite blurbage? David Graham __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From mbales at cybergate.net Wed Jun 6 05:42:38 2001 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 05:42:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurbage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Anyone else feel like sharing favorite blurbage? from Tom Lehrer's notes to "More of Tom Lehrer": "More desperate than amusing" - NY Herald Tribune "He seldom has any point to make except obvious ones" - Christian Science Monitor Mr Lehrer's muse [is] not fettered by such inhibiting factors as taste" - NY Times "Vulgarity" - Pittsburgh Sun-Telegraph "Obvious, jejune, and remarkably unsophisticated" - London Evening Standard "Plays the piano acceptably" - Oakland Tribune But he has not been spoiled by this critical acclaim, nor is money what he is seeking. "If, after hearing my songs," he says wistfully, "just one human being is inspired to say something nasty to a friend, or perhaps to strike a loved one, it will all have been worth the while." mbales at cybergate.net http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From jdavis at panix.com Wed Jun 6 07:41:44 2001 From: jdavis at panix.com (Jordan Davis) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 07:41:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurbage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Smiling and lighting up a cigar a la George Peppard: "I love it when two threads come together." Kevin Davies' blurb for Rod Smith's In Memory of My Theories reads as follows: "Art is no consolation, but it is art. Rod Smith sends us this "thinking event of the pulse fetish tone handle" from America's capital, where each day blank, pig-eyed men, hissing a kind of English, work toward the further redistribution of wealth from the children of the underclasses to the orbiting robots of capital. Tinned and untinned, Smith's art speaks in resistance to treachery, and on behalf of several suppressed tendencies and human possibilities, some new, some older than agriculture. "A fringe limitation / structures history," but "no analysand can indent this largesse." ..... I'm somewhat surprised that Ron Silliman (or Ben Friedlander, for that matter) hasn't spoken out on any political poetry that requires originality - of subject matter, detail, and form - to stage its protests. I suspect the problem is connected to that slippery word "subject" - and how much it gets taken for granted to mean "what is under discussion" as opposed to "what is being ruled." Jordan Davis From wasanthony at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 08:26:13 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 05:26:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] The Poetics of History Part VII In-Reply-To: <3B1D9AA6.727D@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <20010606122613.27574.qmail@web12105.mail.yahoo.com> --- "R. Gancie/C.Parcelli" wrote: > JIm, > > The Oppenheimer quote and the cited comments by the other three > physicists are common cited in the literature of the Manhattan > Project. > The Oppenheimer quote has been cited many times, even in TV > documentaries. However, for purposes of my (PoHVII) email I used > Richard > Rhodes' The Making of the Atomic Bomb. All four citations also appear > in > my poem, Deconstructing the Demiurge: Tale of the Tribe, which > appears > abridged in FlashPoint online magazine at > http://www.FLASHPOINTMAG.COM > > Anything outside the quotes is my own. CP > Thanks! I was especially interested in the somewhat unremarkable Robert Serber: "An overwhelmingly white flash!" Philip Morrison: "Overwhelmingly bright light!" Emilio Segre: "Unbelievably brilliant flash!" You never know what will stick to a poet's flypaper mind. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From wasanthony at yahoo.com Wed Jun 6 08:29:39 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 05:29:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Antin's "Noise" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010606122939.27839.qmail@web12105.mail.yahoo.com> Shows you what summer school will do to a mind. I went to that url and attempted a cut and paste as an experiment and discovered I'd end up using an hour repositioning lines just to have that ruined by e-mail format. Typing them out might be faster. But not right now. - Jim --- David Graham wrote: > Haven't read it yet myself, but the curious should know that David > Antin's > poem "The Noise of Time" is available, all 583 lines of it, at a > click of > your mouse: > > http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR26.2/antin.html > > David Graham > > >--- johnbrehm at mindspring.com wrote: > >> > >> > >> On another subject, I'm curious to know what people here think of > >> David Antin's work. I just read his long poem, The Noise of Time, > in > >> the Boston Review and loved it. > >> > > > >Ditto. Many lines could serve as summaries of threads on this list. > >I've inflicted summer school on myself and don't have the time or > >patience to copy out many lines as examples, but maybe you or > someone > >else can do that. I find his kind of discursiveness more rewarding > >than that of Goldbarth or Weingarten. > > > >- Jim > > > > ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jun 6 08:52:23 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 08:52:23 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] New Caffeine Destiny Message-ID: <105.4754f15.284f8187@aol.com> Subj: New Caffeine Destiny - Maura Stanton, Jeannine Savard, and more! Date: 6/5/01 5:21:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: editor at caffeinedestiny.com (Susan Denning) To: caffeine at caffeinedestiny.com New Caffeine Destiny, with poems by Maura Stanton and Jeannine Savard, new columns, new features and more! check it out. www.caffeinedestiny.com From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu Wed Jun 6 08:56:07 2001 From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Amber Prentiss) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 08:56:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Political Poems Message-ID: I knew there was a reason I kept Halliday's name bouncing in my head. I don't know what I think of the poem yet, but the fact that I'm still churning it over says it's good enough to think about, if nothing else, and that's pretty good. I remember reading a few of his poems in the recent Fall/Winter edition of the Black Warrior Review and laughing a few body parts off. Thanks for posting your summary. It brings a lot of clarity and fresh air to the issue that I couldn't provide. -Amber -----Original Message----- From: David Graham To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 6/6/2001 1:23 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Political Poems I'm probably not alone in finding my eyes glazing over when the term "political poetry" arises--in my case, largely because there's always the danger of finding the critical tail wagging the poetic dog. This is one reason my heart leaps up whenever a text threatens to enter the discussion. I'll offer one in a minute. A few not too focused thoughts first. I'm not yet ready to agree that it's harder to write a political poem than a love poem, though the risks may be in some ways distinct. But even if there are some pitfalls peculiar to poems that engage public life, I suspect that many difficulties are shared with private lyrics: no matter what the subject, there's always the danger of insufficient dramatic detailing, tonal misfirings, sentimentality, smugness, predictability, etc. And I would agree with Carl Dennis, who in his book *Poetry as Persuasion* assumes that all the above are essentially rhetorical challenges to be met by any poet whatever the poem. Dennis does think that there are some problems associated especially with political poetry--and he devotes a chapter of his book to looking at them. The "most common kind of failure in political poetry," he writes, "involves party thinking. Public issues invite combative orthodoxies, with approved arguments and opinions. And poets who are not careful can easily be tempted to become advocates for a group rather than for themselves alone. The result is writing that sounds too much like propaganda--strident and preachy in tone, derivative in language, and predictable in outlook. Such a poem cannot persuade because it seems to have no one in particular standing behind it, no one willing to reject ready-made ideas and discover on his own what he actually believes." Dennis then mentions that recent American political poetry tends to be "an expression of disaffection with the politics of our political leaders and the values of the people who elected them." One peculiarity of such poetry is that such uniform dissent tends not toward originality but its opposite, he argues. And then he looks at a number of poems that he finds exemplary in maintaining various kinds of originality. Before I cite a poem, I'd like to throw out the question: is it true that most political poetry is oppositional in nature? When we hear the term, do we tend automatically to assume that it will be a discontented one? Is there such a thing in our time as a political poem of praise or celebration? *Has* publicly engaged poetry become synonymous with protest, dissent, witness, disaffection, etc.? Aside from works of dubious quality like Angelou's inaugural ode, can anyone think of a counter-example? Here's a poem, finally. It's from Mark Halliday's 1992 book *Tasker Street*, and Carl Dennis employs it as his final positive example. I should note that he does not make large claims for this poem: he calls it "a modest comic poem without grand anger or bitterness." Nonetheless he finds it effective in engaging public issues. I'd welcome any reactions to the poem, or to Dennis's book. David Graham ______________ Fox Point Health Clinic, 1974 In the waiting room this black woman maybe fifty sits down right beside me. Whiskey breath; pocked face. She looks over my shoulder at my notebook where I've been writing about Bjorn Borg in a poem whose point is that I should never cease striving in life. "That's beautiful." A minute later: "I don't see too good." A minute later: "I think I'm dying." So I have to really look at her. The Portuguese women waiting for the doctor don't seem to notice, they murmur placidly. My woman's eyes are round and dark. I say "I certainly hope not." She says "I'm all gone inside. Nothing but bones and ribs. "I've got three children. My older son lives in Gardenia California. My other son I don't know. My daughter she'll be eighteen she goes to St. Patrick's." Her eyes ask me to figure out what all this adds up to-- as if it's a technical puzzle and I'm the expert. I nod, and look down. She leans on me. "Every night I pray to God." She clutches my hand and keeps it. "I'm gonna tell you something. Love is beautiful." I nod. "Black is beautiful too" she says. I nod. She says "I'm not black, I'm only teasing brown." I make my eyes look into her eyes--best I can do; if she's teasing it's a dark shade of teasing. "I won't bug you anymore." She rises slowly and soberly walks out. The Portuguese women shake their heads as if they've seen my black woman do all this before. I have a sore throat, I wish they would vanish, simply vanish. But they don't; and gradually I work back toward Bjorn Borg whose clarity and dedication have seemed so fine, so pure, so white. --Mark Halliday, *Tasker* Street (U Mass Press, 1992): 59-60. __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From DICK at watson.ibm.com Wed Jun 6 09:34:56 2001 From: DICK at watson.ibm.com (DICK at watson.ibm.com) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 01 09:34:56 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Political poems Message-ID: <200106061336.JAA17050@sp1n189at0.watson.ibm.com> I'll suggest Robert Frost's "The Gift Outright" as an example of a political poem that's not negative in tone. And in case that doesn't brand me as a dinosaur, this will. How about the first stanza of The Star-Spangled Banner? Without the music, it sounds fine to me. Richard From DICK at watson.ibm.com Wed Jun 6 09:57:09 2001 From: DICK at watson.ibm.com (DICK at watson.ibm.com) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 01 09:57:09 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Fox Point Health Clinic Message-ID: <200106061358.JAA18088@sp1n189at0.watson.ibm.com> I'd like the poem more if the narrative voice weren't so misanthropic - toward himself, the Portuguese women at the clinic, even toward his aspirations for his poem. And I detect a bit of self-praise in the narrator's voice in his disapproval of himself ... I did enjoy the play on "not black... teasing brown", and "dark teasing." A lot of the other details struck me as too easy, particularly the Bjorn Borg "so white" reference. Richard From TerryP17 at aol.com Wed Jun 6 10:17:43 2001 From: TerryP17 at aol.com (TerryP17 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 10:17:43 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: West Chester Poetry Conference Message-ID: <7d.16134a70.284f9588@aol.com> Paul-- Too loaded with work this year to make it to West Chester. At Dana's request, may come up for the "Nosferatu" performance on Friday, but roundtripping it from DC to the Philly area on Friday and then going out to West Virginia on Saturday, which I have to do, may be too much. Pat Pepper is bringing the latest ECRs for sale, though. My best to the crew if I don't make it, and here's urging anyone on this board in the NYC-Philly-DC area who's interested in meeting New Formalist poets and confirming that they are not really alien mutants to contact Mike Peich at West Chester's English Dept to see if there's still room in the workshops or academic sections. If not, "Nosferatu" is still open to the public (admission charge). This will be the first concert performance of Alva Henderson's new opera, and it features Dana Gioia's New Formalist libretto. Another journey for poetry--and another time-honored use for poetry as well, stretching back quite awhile. We now return you to our regularly scheduled program. --Terry Ponick From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu Wed Jun 6 11:00:00 2001 From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Amber Prentiss) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 11:00:00 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: West Chester Poetry Conference Message-ID: Have fun up there, everybody who's going. Don't forget your toothbrush! -Amber From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Jun 6 11:28:14 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 11:28:14 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: West Chester Poetry Conference Message-ID: <10d.100e3bf.284fa60e@cs.com> In a message dated 6/6/01 9:58:49 AM Central Daylight Time, aprentiss at agnesscott.edu writes: > Have fun up there, everybody who's going. > > Don't forget your toothbrush! > > -Amber > At my age, it should be "don't forget your teeth." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From moira_russell at hotmail.com Wed Jun 6 11:33:15 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 07:33:15 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Antin's "Noise" Message-ID: David Graham wrote: >Haven't read it yet myself, but the curious should know that David Antin's >poem "The Noise of Time" is available, all 583 lines of it, at a click of >your mouse: > >http://bostonreview.mit.edu/BR26.2/antin.html Thanks very much for providing the URL....I have to say this seems to me more like a very interesting personal essay with the capital letters removed than a poem. That said, I was amused by his description of the varieties of gravy in Oklahoma City. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Wed Jun 6 13:35:15 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 12:35:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurbage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The blurb on William Hathaway's 1992 collection *Churlsgrace* (U Central Florida): "William Hathaway's five previous volumes of poetry and numerous knavish essays have made him secretly famous. Starting as a part-time scab in the creative writing business at Cornell in 1969, he workshopped his way to a directorship at LSU, taught literature courses as a fulltime generalist for seven years at a small college in upstate New York, and is currently a Thaumaturgical Engineering Consultant." To which his publisher gracelessly appended some more conventional notes, I'm sorry to say. Wondering: has Hathaway published anything since 1992, or is he still devoting his time to Thaumaturgy? Anyone know where he is or what he's up to? He always appears on my short list of neglected contemporaries--someone who ought to be better known--though perhaps the spirit indicated in his blurb hints at why his career hasn't gone more smoothly. I've half a mind to post one of his political poems, thus keeping the interthread going. . . . David Graham __________________ >Smiling and lighting up a cigar a la George Peppard: "I love it when two >threads come together." > >Kevin Davies' blurb for Rod Smith's In Memory of My Theories reads as >follows: > >"Art is no consolation, but it is art. Rod Smith sends us this "thinking >event of the pulse fetish tone handle" from America's capital, where each >day blank, pig-eyed men, hissing a kind of English, work toward the further >redistribution of wealth from the children of the underclasses to the >orbiting robots of capital. Tinned and untinned, Smith's art speaks in >resistance to treachery, and on behalf of several suppressed tendencies and >human possibilities, some new, some older than agriculture. "A fringe >limitation / structures history," but "no analysand can indent this >largesse." > >..... > __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu Wed Jun 6 13:47:02 2001 From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Amber Prentiss) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 13:47:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurbage Message-ID: Have a whole mind on it! It's too quiet 'round here. -Amber -----Original Message----- From: David Graham To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 6/6/2001 1:35 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurbage The blurb on William Hathaway's 1992 collection *Churlsgrace* (U Central Florida): "William Hathaway's five previous volumes of poetry and numerous knavish essays have made him secretly famous. Starting as a part-time scab in the creative writing business at Cornell in 1969, he workshopped his way to a directorship at LSU, taught literature courses as a fulltime generalist for seven years at a small college in upstate New York, and is currently a Thaumaturgical Engineering Consultant." To which his publisher gracelessly appended some more conventional notes, I'm sorry to say. Wondering: has Hathaway published anything since 1992, or is he still devoting his time to Thaumaturgy? Anyone know where he is or what he's up to? He always appears on my short list of neglected contemporaries--someone who ought to be better known--though perhaps the spirit indicated in his blurb hints at why his career hasn't gone more smoothly. I've half a mind to post one of his political poems, thus keeping the interthread going. . . . David Graham __________________ >Smiling and lighting up a cigar a la George Peppard: "I love it when two >threads come together." > >Kevin Davies' blurb for Rod Smith's In Memory of My Theories reads as >follows: > >"Art is no consolation, but it is art. Rod Smith sends us this "thinking >event of the pulse fetish tone handle" from America's capital, where each >day blank, pig-eyed men, hissing a kind of English, work toward the further >redistribution of wealth from the children of the underclasses to the >orbiting robots of capital. Tinned and untinned, Smith's art speaks in >resistance to treachery, and on behalf of several suppressed tendencies and >human possibilities, some new, some older than agriculture. "A fringe >limitation / structures history," but "no analysand can indent this >largesse." > >..... > __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Wed Jun 6 15:17:58 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 14:17:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurbage again Message-ID: Then there was the typo on the back of my first book, which had Sydney Lea maintaining that "With his first collection, David Graham instantly becomes decay . . . ." Luckily we caught it at the galley proof stage. But I sometimes wonder if Lea wasn't prophetic. More blurbage, anyone? _______ David Graham, rapidly decaying here __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From moira_russell at hotmail.com Wed Jun 6 15:33:24 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 11:33:24 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Not technically a blurb Message-ID: I always adored the first page of Harlan Ellison's "Approaching Oblivion": "THIS IS CALLED THE SPLASH PAGE! IT'S SUPPOSED TO WANT TO MAKE YOU BUY THIS BOOK MORE URGENTLY THAN MILK FOR STARVING CHILDREN!" Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From gmcvay at patriot.net Wed Jun 6 15:49:11 2001 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 15:49:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurbage again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: David, I empathize with your rapid decay; I flipped my lid when I picked up a copy of the final number of SULFUR in a bookstore (not having gotten contributor's copies) and discovered that my first name was typoed as "Gwen" not only on the contents page but **right above my poem.** My slim consolation is that at least my last name was not spelled "McVeigh." Having a big blast, Gwyn, with a Y and only one N From cstroffo at earthlink.net Wed Jun 6 16:31:02 2001 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (chris stroffolino) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 16:31:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Political Poems References: Message-ID: <3B1E9306.66ECE9F6@earthlink.net> Thanks, David, for your lengthy post-- I, too, don't agree that it's harder to write a political poem than a love poem-- but nor do I find the taboos and prohibitions I detect in Dennis's especially helpful-- especially when I realize that many of my favorite poems may be 'guilty' (even by my own--perhaps looser, compared to many on this list--standards) of one or more of the following: insufficient dramatic detailing, tonal misfirings, sentimentality, smugness, predictability, etc. While I'm sympathetic to Dennis's distate for poetry that "involves party thinking" in which poets may "become advocates for a group rather than for themselves alone," I also believe that this is a pitfall, or temptation, for ANY kind of poetry, including, paradoxically as it may seem, the poetry of personal experience (which, let me make this perfectly clear, ahem, I'm not categorically oppossed to)-- I think of the scene in Monty Python's LIFE OF BRIAN in which Brian, who had been mistaken for a prophet/savior, is confronted by a large chanting crowd while he's trying to make love, and finally yells through the window something to the effect of, "You don't need me. You're all individuals" and they all respond in rote, "Yes, we're all individuals" and one person in the corner says, "I'm not." And it is that person who resists the "party thinking" of our so-called free-individual society as well as gestures toward a moral/ethical conundrum (this person is not necessarily an "original" either).... Even if it's only a joke or quip, it does point to ways in which Dennis's argument is too easily employable to dismiss the challenge a politically inflected poem can pose to "ready-made ideas" (especially if one seriously considers both the rather open-ended idea that "the political is the personal" as well as the idea that "the more different we are, the more similar we are").... I must question the (didactic & propagandistic) taboo against didacticism and propaganda. Dennis may not be preachy in his poetry, but he sure as hell is in his prose--and he doesn't even point to his own paradox. Yes, perhaps a "preachy" poem "can not persuade because it seems to have no one in particular standing behind it," and this is perhaps one of the rhetorical lessons Shakespeare wants to make in Julius Caesar when he contrasts Brutus' oration after Caesar's murder to Antony's---Antony wins by brilliant rhetoric as well as emotional appeal Brutus is incapable of, but this doesn't mean Antony is less political... I digress.... Dennis makes a big leap when he characterizes poetry that expresses "disaffection with the politics of our political leaders and the values of the people who elected them" with "uniform dissent." In the first place, to be disaffected with "our" political leaders does not necessarily mean one criticizes the values of the people who elected them (David, is there specific poems he's talking about here?) In the second place, such dissent is far from uniform. In the third place, I distrust the way hemakes "originality" into a goal. I mean I don't think we can HELP but BE ORIGINAL--- to make it into an injunction is like a parent telling a kid, "that's not you" and not just when he's picking his nose in public... It seems, from David's summary, that Dennis reductively dismisses the POSSIBILITIES for, or OF, a contemporary political poetry, that it isn't all "oppositional in nature" (is his implication that it is "oppositional TO nature"? well, maybe his...), or at least that there may be a feeling of CONTENTMENT to be found in the self-knowledge of discontentment, that "protest" is often misread as a strictly negative "bashing" when etymologically it has more in common with panegyric (even, to a political figure...) I could here cite counter-examples of this, but as a poet and teacher myself I'm more interested in clearing space for possibilities of today and tomorrow.... When I think of political poetry, I think the difference between the public, oratorical, poem (say, "Howl," or Baraka's "When We'll Worship Jesus") that does seem to have a definite idea of what it wants to convey, on one hand, and the more meditative, or dialectic poem that seems to be more improvisatory or heuristic in its engagement of political issues, allowing more room for ambivalence (there's a range here--from, say, Dudley Randall's "Booker T." dialogue poem to Bob Perelman's mid-late 80s work in particular). Though my own published poetry generally has more in common with the latter than the former, I do not wish to dismiss the former mode as, when it works, at the very least, cathartic... An anloaogus distinction exists in my reading of a poet like Dickinson, who is generally not thought of as a political poet. In her oeuvre, there are public poems like "Some keep the sabbath..." or "I Taste a Liquor Never Brewed" or "The World is not Conclusion" (maybe) or "The Brain is Wider..." in which, in Sharon Cameron's words (in her excellent LYRIC TIME), the "poem's beginning is more forceful than its conclusion..."(34). But, alongise, the more ambivalent, improvisatory, less -public, poems like "Behind Me Dips Eternity" or "I Felt A Funeral in My Brain" which also have a political dimension if one wants to look for it (cf. the political dimension to Parra's "Funerales no, muerte si", though some might say I'm defining politics too broadly....) and I am very glad Dickinson's work is various enough to do both... Of course, Dickinson is a poet of ideas much more than Halliday and maybe this has something to do with why I find Halliday's poem so unfulfilling. I don't want to knock it, in and of itself, but when it operates in the context of being a POSITIVE EXAMPLE to support Dennis's argument of prohibitions and taboos, I find it, in David's word, "the critical tail wagging the poetic dog." Sure, we get an insight into the speaker's psyche, or at least personality, and perhaps some sense of race relations in 1974. But how is it "effectively engaging public issues"? even if one is willing to concede that the only reality is face to face? And how does Halliday "reject ready made roles and discover on his own what he actually believes" in this poem? Chris David Graham wrote: > I'm probably not alone in finding my eyes glazing over when the term > "political poetry" arises--in my case, largely because there's always the > danger of finding the critical tail wagging the poetic dog. This is one > reason my heart leaps up whenever a text threatens to enter the discussion. > I'll offer one in a minute. > > A few not too focused thoughts first. I'm not yet ready to agree that it's > harder to write a political poem than a love poem, though the risks may be > in some ways distinct. But even if there are some pitfalls peculiar to > poems that engage public life, I suspect that many difficulties are shared > with private lyrics: no matter what the subject, there's always the danger > of insufficient dramatic detailing, tonal misfirings, sentimentality, > smugness, predictability, etc. And I would agree with Carl Dennis, who in > his book *Poetry as Persuasion* assumes that all the above are essentially > rhetorical challenges to be met by any poet whatever the poem. > > Dennis does think that there are some problems associated especially with > political poetry--and he devotes a chapter of his book to looking at them. > > The "most common kind of failure in political poetry," he writes, "involves > party thinking. Public issues invite combative orthodoxies, with approved > arguments and opinions. And poets who are not careful can easily be > tempted to become advocates for a group rather than for themselves alone. > The result is writing that sounds too much like propaganda--strident and > preachy in tone, derivative in language, and predictable in outlook. Such > a poem cannot persuade because it seems to have no one in particular > standing behind it, no one willing to reject ready-made ideas and discover > on his own what he actually believes." > > Dennis then mentions that recent American political poetry tends to be "an > expression of disaffection with the politics of our political leaders and > the values of the people who elected them." One peculiarity of such poetry > is that such uniform dissent tends not toward originality but its opposite, > he argues. And then he looks at a number of poems that he finds exemplary > in maintaining various kinds of originality. > > Before I cite a poem, I'd like to throw out the question: is it true that > most political poetry is oppositional in nature? When we hear the term, do > we tend automatically to assume that it will be a discontented one? Is > there such a thing in our time as a political poem of praise or > celebration? *Has* publicly engaged poetry become synonymous with > protest, dissent, witness, disaffection, etc.? Aside from works of dubious > quality like Angelou's inaugural ode, can anyone think of a > counter-example? > > Here's a poem, finally. It's from Mark Halliday's 1992 book *Tasker > Street*, and Carl Dennis employs it as his final positive example. I > should note that he does not make large claims for this poem: he calls it > "a modest comic poem without grand anger or bitterness." Nonetheless he > finds it effective in engaging public issues. > > I'd welcome any reactions to the poem, or to Dennis's book. > > David Graham > ______________ > > Fox Point Health Clinic, 1974 > > In the waiting room this black woman maybe fifty sits down > right beside me. Whiskey breath; pocked face. > She looks over my shoulder at my notebook > where I've been writing about Bjorn Borg in a poem > whose point is that I should never cease > striving in life. > "That's beautiful." > A minute later: "I don't see too good." > A minute later: "I think I'm dying." > So I have to really look at her. > The Portuguese women waiting for the doctor don't seem to notice, > they murmur placidly. > My woman's eyes are round and dark. > I say "I certainly hope not." > She says "I'm all gone inside. Nothing but bones and ribs. > "I've got three children. > My older son lives in Gardenia California. > My other son I don't know. > My daughter she'll be eighteen she goes to St. Patrick's." > Her eyes ask me to figure out what all this adds up to-- > as if it's a technical puzzle and I'm the expert. > I nod, and look down. > She leans on me. "Every night I pray to God." > She clutches my hand and keeps it. "I'm gonna tell you something. Love is > beautiful." > I nod. "Black is beautiful too" she says. > I nod. She says "I'm not black, I'm only teasing brown." > I make my eyes look into her eyes--best I can do; > if she's teasing it's a dark shade of teasing. > > "I won't bug you anymore." She rises slowly > and soberly walks out. The Portuguese women shake their heads > as if they've seen my black woman do all this before. > I have a sore throat, I wish they would vanish, simply > vanish. But they don't; and gradually I work back toward > Bjorn Borg whose clarity and dedication have seemed so > fine, so pure, so white. > > --Mark Halliday, *Tasker* Street (U Mass Press, 1992): 59-60. > > __________________ > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > __________________ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From languagethief at yahoo.com Thu Jun 7 01:05:13 2001 From: languagethief at yahoo.com (The Old Mole) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 22:05:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Blurbage again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010607050513.65233.qmail@web12202.mail.yahoo.com> I sent The New Country Music Encyclopedia to Rodney Crowell for a blurb, and he sent back: "Hey, I love this book! They wrote a lot about me! My editor said I had to ask him for another one. They wanted something less frivolous. I said -- "?ou do it, and make sure to tell him that I thought the first one was perfect." --- David Graham wrote: > Then there was the typo on the back of my first > book, which had Sydney Lea > maintaining that "With his first collection, David > Graham instantly becomes > decay . . . ." > > Luckily we caught it at the galley proof stage. > > But I sometimes wonder if Lea wasn't prophetic. > > More blurbage, anyone? > > _______ > David Graham, rapidly decaying here > > __________________ > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > __________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu Thu Jun 7 09:11:12 2001 From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Amber Prentiss) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 09:11:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] I Did It! Message-ID: I made it! It's my birthday! Goodbye, -teen, you were awful. I'm 20 now! Woohoo! -Amber (Sorry. I had to announce it.) From sharnij at hotmail.com Thu Jun 7 09:14:12 2001 From: sharnij at hotmail.com (Sharni Jayawardena) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 19:14:12 +0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] I Did It! Message-ID: Happy Birthday Amber! Look forward to your forties. Best, Sharni >From: Amber Prentiss >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >To: "'new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu '" >Subject: [New-Poetry] I Did It! >Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 09:11:12 -0400 > >I made it! It's my birthday! Goodbye, -teen, you were awful. I'm 20 now! >Woohoo! >-Amber >(Sorry. I had to announce it.) >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. From wasanthony at yahoo.com Thu Jun 7 09:45:22 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 06:45:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] I Did It! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010607134522.20709.qmail@web12105.mail.yahoo.com> --- Amber Prentiss wrote: > I made it! It's my birthday! Goodbye, -teen, you were awful. I'm 20 > now! > Woohoo! > -Amber > (Sorry. I had to announce it.) Amber, I notice the change already! The 30s, 40s, and 50s are good too. Congratulations, and remember to eat your vegetables. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Jun 7 11:20:24 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 11:20:24 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] I Did It! Message-ID: <92.15b80d70.2850f5b8@cs.com> In a message dated 6/7/01 8:09:19 AM Central Daylight Time, aprentiss at agnesscott.edu writes: > I made it! It's my birthday! Goodbye, -teen, you were awful. I'm 20 now! > Woohoo! > -Amber > (Sorry. I had to announce it.) > Oh, just wait until you're two and twenty and have to say "'Tis twue, 'tis twue." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Thu Jun 7 11:37:44 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:37:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gwendolyn Brooks Message-ID: It's the late Gwendolyn Brooks's birthday today. Just wanted to raise a toast. (The following poem, I am tempted to say, has some political implications. . . .) David Graham ____________ THE SECOND SERMON ON THE WARPLAND 1. This is the urgency: Live! and have your blooming in the noise of the whirlwind. 2. Salve salvage in the spin. Endorse the splendor splashes; stylize the flawed utility; prop a malign or failing light-- but know the whirlwind is our commonwealth. Not the easy man, who rides above them all, not the jumbo brigand, not the pet bird of poets, that sweetest sonnet, shall straddle the whirlwind. Nevertheless, live. 3. All about are the cold places, all about are the pushmen and jeopardy, theft-- all about are the stormers and scramblers, but what must our Season be, which starts from Fear? Live and go out. Define and medicate the whirlwind. 4. The time cracks into furious flower. Lifts its face all unashamed. And sways in wicked grace. Whose half-black hands assemble oranges is tom-tom hearted (goes in bearing oranges and boom). And there are bells for orphans-- and red and shriek and sheen. A garbageman is dignified as any diplomat. Big Bessie's feet hurt like nobody's business, but she stands--bigly--under the unruly scrutiny, stands in the wild weed. In the wild weed she is a citizen, and is a moment of highest quality; admirable. It is lonesome, yes. For we are the last of the loud. Nevertheless, live. Conduct your blooming in the noise and whip of the whirlwind. --Gwendolyn Brooks, from *In the Mecca*, 1968 __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From languagethief at yahoo.com Thu Jun 7 11:38:03 2001 From: languagethief at yahoo.com (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 08:38:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] I Did It! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010607153803.63948.qmail@web12208.mail.yahoo.com> Happy Birthday Amber! --- Amber Prentiss wrote: > I made it! It's my birthday! Goodbye, -teen, you > were awful. I'm 20 now! > Woohoo! > -Amber > (Sorry. I had to announce it.) > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From Cadaly at aol.com Thu Jun 7 13:16:51 2001 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 13:16:51 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] poetics/history Message-ID: <9f.1685c956.28511103@aol.com> I had completely forgotten about the bonus army. I am currently scanning Lola Ridge's first two books -- her books from the 30s are not in the public domain -- but she did write about the WWI vets returning to the lower east side in New York. Once you get past some of the returning soldier / soldier of the revolution stuff... I'm not too familiar with the network of American Legion Halls and various union and other halls after WWI, but most of the programs and services avilable to veterans now have only been available since WWII it is interesting to me, reading some of these Ridge poems, which describe these veterans in terms we would think of for Vietnam vets (asked my Dad, he recalls Chicago skid row around WWII as occupied by WWI vets) also an interesting contrast to Dorothy Parker's poetry -- her husband was morphine addicted? in the aftermath of war injuries -- Rgds, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net P.S. I am trying courier, this Time Warner e-mail address is viciously formatting everything that goes out -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From DICK at watson.ibm.com Thu Jun 7 18:29:50 2001 From: DICK at watson.ibm.com (DICK at watson.ibm.com) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 01 18:29:50 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] the noise of time Message-ID: <200106072231.SAA21528@sp1n189at0.watson.ibm.com> I enjoyed the discussion of the phrase from the Russian, and Nabakov's translation to "hubbub." His son's phrase "a landscape in a landscape" was beautiful. I really liked the ending discussion of his son at sixteen playing tennis with his grandfather, and the boys' attempt to find a nice birthday present for him, and the reprise of the phrase "the noise of time." But the rest was totally expendable. I could imagine that as a performance some of it could be quite gripping, but on the page it was very flat. (I can't imagine his riff on The Nation could be made interesting, even though I agree with his opinion.) I found maybe 3 line breaks that had any significance - the rest should have been printed as run-on paragraphs (if at all.) Richard From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Thu Jun 7 21:51:06 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 18:51:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] I Did It! Message-ID: <20010608015106.DF2462755@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From wasanthony at yahoo.com Fri Jun 8 13:46:25 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 10:46:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] cowboy poetry parodies Message-ID: <20010608174625.36233.qmail@web12101.mail.yahoo.com> I've been yakking with John Gilgun and he's in the midst of writing cowboy poetry parodies. He said it was o.k. for me to let this one mosey on over to NewPoetry. Says he was inspired by a book David Romtvedt is trying to get published, one in which the cowboy narrator writes parodies of modernist poets. Sure would like to take a peek at one of them thangs. - Jim Those Language Poets Are Breaking Up That Old Gang of Mine Not a soul down by the bunkhouse. That's a pretty certain sign. Those language poets are breaking up That old gang of mine. There goes Tex. There goes Mex, Reading Michael Davidson. Now and then we meet again. But isn't any fun. They forgot Diane Di Prima, And Diane Wakoski as well. They're reading Lyn Hejinian And everything's gone to hell. Not a soul down at the Long Branch. What's a poor cowpoke to do? I went to see Miss Blanche And she was reading Andrei Codrescu. I've saddled up Old Paint now. Got my dog and trusty gun. I'm riding behind a cow now And reading Charles Ol-son. - John Gilgun ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu Fri Jun 8 14:03:15 2001 From: mmagee at dept.english.upenn.edu (Michael Magee) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 14:03:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] cowboy poetry parodies In-Reply-To: <20010608174625.36233.qmail@web12101.mail.yahoo.com> from "jcervantes" at Jun 8, 2001 10:46:25 am Message-ID: <200106081803.OAA00478@dept.english.upenn.edu> Here's a piece of mine that will come out in PAVEMENT SAW this year sometime, apropos this thread. Asterisks inclose italicized sections. -m. COWBOY POETRY They just love those sounds the yodels yelps & yee-haws, what they do to a mountain and for a mountaineer, the range and a ranger, the plains and plain speakers; and if you ask them they'll describe their symbolic economy, singing songs like "To Get the Wind in Krakow, You've Got to Crack a Window" and "In Your Own Urine You're on Your Own" as examples. But once, when asked if she liked writing poetry, all the mysterious cowboy poet would say was, *Yeah, it's a blast, I really really dig writing poetry.* And yet somehow Sunshine Biscuits, Inc. was convinced to adopt the slogan, "Oh, do not ask, 'What is it?' Let us go and eat this Cheez-It." In the high water, someone made a mark. His name was Mark and he said, Mark my words, I've finally made my mark. But the cowboy poets' nearby yodels were marked by their skepticism, of the kind clay has for tumbleweed, cracking up when it passes by, calling it "Lula." "Lula's Cruel Medulla," her biggest hit in years and her last. Later there was going door to door in Phoenix, Albuquerque, Santa Fe, Tulsa, saying, *If one poem every four hours is good for you, two every four should be twice as good, - it stands to reason.* This was near the end and there was talk of Telos. Telos had ended it the night before w/out so much as a yodel or a yelp. Certainly there wasn't a yee-haw for a hundred miles. *Not so much as a yee-haw*, the cowboy poet smouldered, *I think I deserved that. The awful oracular gestures of Cowboy Destiny are upon me, like John Wayne in "The Searchers," but without the racist subtext.* She believed her himself to be John Wayne w/out the racist and sexist subtexts and more of a poet, and said as much in an improvisation on that old cowboy tune, "That'll Be the Day," which she called, "Just you, just me, just us, justice, evidence," singing against the old story: it's midnight on the bus, partner. It's midnight. On the bus, your partner says she's leaving you and the whole dyke cowboy poetry life -- but that, understand, it's nothing "political." Singing against the old story: *because one day I'm gonna buy myself a boat. Then I'm gonna find me a spot where there ain't no grass 'cause where there ain't no grass, there ain't no horses.* According to jcervantes: > > I've been yakking with John Gilgun and he's in the midst of writing > cowboy poetry parodies. He said it was o.k. for me to let this one > mosey on over to NewPoetry. Says he was inspired by a book David > Romtvedt is trying to get published, one in which the cowboy narrator > writes parodies of modernist poets. Sure would like to take a peek at > one of them thangs. > > - Jim > > Those Language Poets Are Breaking Up That Old Gang of Mine > > Not a soul down by the bunkhouse. > That's a pretty certain sign. > Those language poets are breaking up > That old gang of mine. > > There goes Tex. There goes Mex, > Reading Michael Davidson. > Now and then we meet again. > But isn't any fun. > > They forgot Diane Di Prima, > And Diane Wakoski as well. > They're reading Lyn Hejinian > And everything's gone to hell. > > Not a soul down at the Long Branch. > What's a poor cowpoke to do? > I went to see Miss Blanche > And she was reading Andrei Codrescu. > > I've saddled up Old Paint now. > Got my dog and trusty gun. > I'm riding behind a cow now > And reading Charles Ol-son. > > - John Gilgun > > > ===== > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net > Salt River Review: > "Ripples" @ > Poetserv: > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From JforJames at aol.com Sat Jun 9 18:37:19 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 18:37:19 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Political Poetry & Love Poetry Message-ID: By rights we should distinguish dissident poetry from protest poetry. Most protest poetry is conceptually shallow. I think of the typical protest anthology: poems in opposition to the Vietnam War or to the coup in Chile, ecologically concerned or anti-nuke poetry (with a few devastating exceptions, mainly Japanese), even poems sympathetic to workers (notably those that focus on workers' oppression, a symptomatic issue that leads to poetic moralizing while the ignoring the exploitation that necessitates the oppression). Such poetry is issue-bound, spectatorial--rarely the function of an engaged artistic life, but compensation for a politically marginalized one. It tends to be reactive, victim-oriented, incapacitated, lacking the theoretical and practical coherence that could give it muscle and point. (Look at the _endings_ of protest poems.) But the telltale characteristic of protest poetry is that it seldom speaks the active rage or resolution of people on the receiving end. I mean the oppressed and exploited people. The real subject is the poet's own tender sensibilities, not what is actually, _systematically_ going on. Dissident poetry, however, does not respect boundaries between private and public, self and other. In breaking boundaries it breaks silences: speaking for, or at best _with_, the silenced; opening poetry up, putting it in the middle of life rather than shunting it off into a corner. It is a poetry that talks back, that would act as part of the world, not simply as a mirror of it. *** Politically conscious poets tend to be _more_ profound, not less. Look again at the record. In our own time the three most formidable poets, it seems to me, were intensely "political": the Turkish poet Nazim Hikmet, Vallejo and Brecht (as poet). Political in the most explicit, concrete, partisan way. What's more, their aesthetic achievement is _because of_ their politics, not in spite of it. The most credible, full, _caring_ love poetry has been written by one of the most expressly political poets. I refer, again, to Hikmet. In part this is because he can, and does, write of the _other_--who is never merely an excuse for self-immersion, and who is not reduced, either, to the condition of a delicious ahistorical object. James Scully, "Remarks on Political Poetry" Line Break: poetry as social practice (Bay Press, '98) From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 9 22:10:43 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R. Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 22:10:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Poetics of History Part VIII: Instrumental Realism & a Protest Poem Message-ID: <3B22D723.18F8@ix.netcom.com> For me poetically (e.g. in my poem, Tale of the Tribe) the U.S. invasion of Southeast Asia (also spoken of as the Vietnam War by American apologists) is an ideogrammic lynchpin. The paradigms of Western chauvinism and hegemony are on panoramic display. The attempt to subjugate Laos, Cambodia, Thailand and, of course, Vietnam contains every ideogram necessary for the elaboration of the central themes of Tale of the Tribe. There, of course, is racism utilizing the same vocabulary American invaders used in the Philippines at the turn of the century. There is also the crude technological racism of the General Curtis LeMay, MACV, IBM and Henry Kissinger. There are new methods of quantification via science and technology that inherently advance racist principles even as they maintain a facade of objectivity. After all, Robert McNamara taught systems analysis, e.g. an early form of non-linear bean counting, at Harvard Business School before he became Secretary of Defense. Harking back to the manufacture of nuclear weapons, Kissinger would write vis a vis the 'objective' sciences, "A scientific revolution has, for all practical purposes, removed technical limits from the exercise of power in foreign policy." And like the cold war arms race, fortunes were made in Vietnam and madison executives would be in key policy positions. And unlike the imagined apocalypse of nuclear deterrence, the U.S. invasion of Southeast Asia introduced infrastructure and environmental damage on a monumental scale and with diabolical intent. More bomb tonnage was dropped on Southeast Asia than all the airborne ordinance exhausted in all of the theatres by all of the combatants of World War II combined--by a factor of four! Rome plows didn't plow; they buzz cut foliage (everything) a foot off the ground. 1200 square miles of South Vietnam was bulldozed to a moonscape. Agent Orange isn't a pesticide (technically); its a growth hormone which "tricks" plants into canabalizing themselves. The saturation bombing of Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia and eastern Thailand was so intense that in many areas the water table was fractured or crushed by the concussions and these areas were without potable water, some for deacdes. Virtually all of North Vietnam suffered this fate. It is a well known historical fact that all of the allies of World War II were eager to acquire the services of Germany's Nazi talent The U.S. brought many Nazi scientists and adminstrators to the U.S. to serve in e.g. the space program, most notably Walter Dornberger who oversaw the Peenemunde rocket project and worked to death thousands of Jews, homosexuals, French partisans etc. and, of course, Wernher von Braun, who became head of NASA but who once quipped vis a vis his V-I and V-2 rockets, "I aim for the stars but sometimes I hit London." Lesser SS officers came to the U.S. and blended in becoming machinists in Ohio and dairy farmers in Wisconson among other employs. The U.S. government program was known as Operation Paperclip, but it took on many different forms and names depending on which corporation or branch of the government was interested in acquiring which Nazi expertise. Low level SS and such that fell into the hands of the French were provided with a different fate; they were allowed to join the French Foreign Legion and were promptly shipped to Southeast Asia to fight the Viet Minh Nationalist movement under Ho Chi Minh. It was Legionaires, with a large German contingent, that were ground up by Viet Minh forces at Dien Bien Phu under General Vo Nguyen Giap. The French, of course, were the great tormentor of the Vietnamese after the Vietnamese finally drove Chinese out. All the above is prelude to one of my favorite "Vietnamese War Protest Poems" which though directed at French imperialism could easily apply to the attempted American suzerainty. It is by Phan Van Tri: The Mosquito O mosquito, you're blessed with all nice things! What do you lack? Why buzz and still complain? You've rested on jade mats and ivory beds. You've stroked and kissed rouged lips or powdered cheeks. You've spared no children, pampering your mouth. You've hurt poor people, glutting up your paunch. When a good swatter someday comes to hand, I'll pay you for your crimes without a blink! Notes: For the treat of a lifetime read The Perfect War: Technowar in Vietnam by James William Gibson. "Perfect" being ideogrammic with "mathematical" Also: For more on Instrumental Realism read Don Ihde's work. From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sat Jun 9 22:16:49 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R. Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 22:16:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Poetics of History Part VIII: Instrumental Realism & a Protest Poem References: <3B22D723.18F8@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3B22D891.71FF@ix.netcom.com> As in "cannibalizing" R. Gancie/C.Parcelli wrote: > > For me poetically (e.g. in my poem, Tale of the Tribe) the U.S. invasion > of Southeast Asia (also spoken of as the Vietnam War by American > apologists) is an ideogrammic lynchpin. The paradigms of Western > chauvinism and hegemony are on panoramic display. The attempt to > subjugate Laos, Cambodia, Thailand and, of course, Vietnam contains > every ideogram necessary for the elaboration of the central themes of > Tale of the Tribe. There, of course, is racism utilizing the same > vocabulary American invaders used in the Philippines at the turn of the > century. There is also the crude technological racism of the General > Curtis LeMay, MACV, IBM and Henry Kissinger. There are new methods of > quantification via science and technology that inherently advance racist > principles even as they maintain a facade of objectivity. After all, > Robert McNamara taught systems analysis, e.g. an early form of > non-linear bean counting, at Harvard Business School before he became > Secretary of Defense. Harking back to the manufacture of nuclear > weapons, Kissinger would write vis a vis the 'objective' sciences, "A > scientific revolution has, for all practical purposes, removed technical > limits from the exercise of power in foreign policy." And like the cold > war arms race, fortunes were made in Vietnam and madison executives > would be in key policy positions. > > And unlike the imagined apocalypse of nuclear deterrence, the U.S. > invasion of Southeast Asia introduced infrastructure and environmental > damage on a monumental scale and with diabolical intent. More bomb > tonnage was dropped on Southeast Asia than all the airborne ordinance > exhausted in all of the theatres by all of the combatants of World War > II combined--by a factor of four! Rome plows didn't plow; they buzz cut > foliage (everything) a foot off the ground. 1200 square miles of South > Vietnam was bulldozed to a moonscape. Agent Orange isn't a pesticide > (technically); its a growth hormone which "tricks" plants into > canabalizing themselves. The saturation bombing of Vietnam, Laos, > Cambodia and eastern Thailand was so intense that in many areas the > water table was fractured or crushed by the concussions and these areas > were without potable water, some for deacdes. Virtually all of North > Vietnam suffered this fate. > > It is a well known historical fact that all of the allies of World War > II were eager to acquire the services of Germany's Nazi talent The U.S. > brought many Nazi scientists and adminstrators to the U.S. to serve in > e.g. the space program, most notably Walter Dornberger who oversaw the > Peenemunde rocket project and worked to death thousands of Jews, > homosexuals, French partisans etc. and, of course, Wernher von Braun, > who became head of NASA but who once quipped vis a vis his V-I and V-2 > rockets, "I aim for the stars but sometimes I hit London." > > Lesser SS officers came to the U.S. and blended in becoming machinists > in Ohio and dairy farmers in Wisconson among other employs. The U.S. > government program was known as Operation Paperclip, but it took on many > different forms and names depending on which corporation or branch of > the government was interested in acquiring which Nazi expertise. > > Low level SS and such that fell into the hands of the French were > provided with a different fate; they were allowed to join the French > Foreign Legion and were promptly shipped to Southeast Asia to fight the > Viet Minh Nationalist movement under Ho Chi Minh. It was Legionaires, > with a large German contingent, that were ground up by Viet Minh forces > at Dien Bien Phu under General Vo Nguyen Giap. The French, of course, > were the great tormentor of the Vietnamese after the Vietnamese finally > drove Chinese out. > > All the above is prelude to one of my favorite "Vietnamese War Protest > Poems" which though directed at French imperialism could easily apply to > the attempted American suzerainty. It is by Phan Van Tri: > > The Mosquito > > O mosquito, you're blessed with all nice things! > What do you lack? Why buzz and still complain? > You've rested on jade mats and ivory beds. > You've stroked and kissed rouged lips or powdered cheeks. > You've spared no children, pampering your mouth. > You've hurt poor people, glutting up your paunch. > When a good swatter someday comes to hand, > I'll pay you for your crimes without a blink! > > Notes: For the treat of a lifetime read The Perfect War: Technowar in > Vietnam by James William Gibson. "Perfect" being ideogrammic with > "mathematical" > > Also: For more on Instrumental Realism read Don Ihde's work. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Sun Jun 10 15:55:54 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 14:55:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Political Poetry & Love Poetry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This is a fairly lengthy excerpt, but for me it poses some of the fundamental issues very well. From Alan Williamson's collection of essays *Eloquence & Mere Life*, the opening of his second essay titled "Poetry & Politics." David Graham _____________________________________ Almost everyone wants there to be political poetry--as if it were the badge of our seriousness, our membership in the greater human community. And almost no one, except for a few diehard activists, is satisfied with most of the political poetry we have. It is a subject one almost hesitates to write on at all--fearing one is bound to expose something bad-a cryptoconservatism, or wishy-washy quietism, if not some narrow-minded "political correctness." But the question nags. How many times do we hear quoted at us--always with respect, usually with some sense of guilt or shame--the Latin American poet's judgment about our "little personal poems"? (But would we really want our poetry to be like their second-string, at least as it appears in translation--those blunt newspaper cartoons, the good side all soft porn, young mothers nursing in the fields, the bad side all rape and jackboots?) To give us the courage of our doubts, let us listen to another voice, out of the Stalinist experience of Eastern Europe, Milan Kundera's in The Unbearable Lightness of Being: "What repelled her was not nearly so much the ugliness of the Communist world .. . as the mask of beauty it tried to wear-- in other words, Communist kitsch. . . . The unwritten, unsung motto of the parade was not "Long live Communism!" but "Long live life!" The power and cunning of Communist politics lay in the fact that it appropriated this slogan . . . . The feeling induced by kitsch must be a kind the multitudes can share. Kitsch may not, therefore, depend on an unusual situation; it must derive from the basic images engraved in their memories: the ungrateful daughter, the neglected father, children running on the grass, the motherland betrayed, first love. Kitsch causes two tears to flow in quick succession. The first tear says: How nice to see children running on the grass! The second tear says: How nice to be moved, together with all mankind, by children running on the grass! It is the second tear that makes kitsch kitsch. The brotherhood of man on earth will be possible only on a base of kitsch. . . . Kitsch is the aesthetic ideal of all politicians and all political parties and movements." Do we hear some rather large pedestals starting to crack at these words? That "second tear," that tone of self-congratulation at being on the side of humanity, whether positively or negatively (for we congratulate ourselves on what we abhor, as well as on what moves us) is what some of us dislike in most political poetry even when we agree with the message. Can there be a political art that does not rely on kitsch? It might be fruitful to pose the question differently. What can poetry do with politics that a newspaper editorial, a cartoon, a speech cannot do as well, or better? One answer, I would suggest, is that it has a lot more leeway to deal with mixed feelings--with that ambivalence that may seem indecisive, even treacherous, in the moment, but is almost bound to have some merit in the long run, given the unexpected outcomes of human undertakings. It may be an ambivalence between elements of different political positions, as with Robert Lowell, who was quite sincerely conservative, liberal, and radical, according to his temperament and the differences between situations. It may be caused by a conflict (or simply an interaction) between a political position and other frameworks of value--personal loyalty, aesthetics, religion--that are equally real to the individual. Here, too, poetry may have a special advantage in examining those auras of aesthetic feeling that surround the political, and give it, legitimately or illegitimately, so much of its intrapsychic authority. Or poetry might deal with the sense of powerful drifts in one's own unconscious life, or in other people's, that impede one's freedom to act rationally, for a common good. It can even articulate hatred, though, if it as sensitive as we wish poetry to be, it will also articulate the pain of hatred as a state of mind. The poet is then implicated in the full texture, the confusions, and the guilt of human interactions, not raised above it in the false superiority of Kundera's kitsch. --Alan Williamson. "Poetry and Politics." Eloquence and Mere Life: Essays on The Art of Poetry. U Michigan, 1994: 92-4. _____________________________________ __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From moira_russell at hotmail.com Sun Jun 10 20:12:16 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 16:12:16 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Political Poetry & Love Poetry Message-ID: >How many times do we hear quoted at us--always with respect, usually with >some sense of guilt or shame--the Latin American poet's judgment about our >"little personal poems"? I have become particularly tired of the assumption that if you are not writing actively political poetry (complete with Good Guys and Bad Guys), your poetry doesn't "count" or isn't "anything real." Someone else here recently said something about the difference between politial poetry and protest poetry -- the poetry of nontortured poets who hear about tortured people and feel really, really bad about it, and the poetry of people who have been or possibly can be tortured. The first type of poetry is usually insipid. The second is like a fist to the gut (witness Paul Celan). I'm reminded of the moment in Levertov's essay about Anne Sexton where she says if Sexton had been more overtly political, perhaps she wouldn't have been so lost in her own head, more mentally healthy, etc., etc., etc. I am also reminded of two sentiments I take as mottos -- "He who saves one life, saves the world entire" and "As long as one man is in chains, I am not free." If, as we so often hear, the personal is political, can't the political be somehow personalized? Demanding an artist be political seems a bit like an activist saying to a psychologist, "Why are you worrying about the happiness of this one bourgeois individual? Why don't you devote yourself to giving vaccines to underprivileged people in Third World countries?" Would this really be the best use of the psychologist's talents? In other words when Van Gogh painted his pictures of peasant life I don't think his main goal was to say, "These people are exploited and their lives are unbearable." He was trying to get reality onto the canvas as best he could. And because that was his aim, the paintings still now tell us more about peasant life than hundreds of thousands of words in some dead "political" work. Or in still other words: do we read Milton's sonnet on the Covenanters because it's a blazing political statement, or because it's a good poem? I've never met anyone who understood the background of that poem without a good deal of explication. Yet wouldn't such a good poem written in the service of a political cause seem to immortalize it? Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From TerryP17 at aol.com Sun Jun 10 20:13:30 2001 From: TerryP17 at aol.com (TerryP17 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 20:13:30 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Polemics of History Rant, Part XXXIII Message-ID: <123.220fa6.2855672a@aol.com> In a message dated 6/10/01 12:01:59 PM, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu writes: >For me poetically (e.g. in my poem, Tale of the Tribe) the U.S. invasion >of Southeast Asia (also spoken of as the Vietnam War by American >apologists) is an ideogrammic lynchpin. The paradigms of Western >chauvinism and hegemony are on panoramic display. The attempt to >subjugate Laos, Cambodia, Thailand and, of course, Vietnam contains >every ideogram necessary for the elaboration of the central themes of >Tale of the Tribe. There, of course, is racism utilizing the same >vocabulary American invaders used in the Philippines at the turn of the >century. Ah, I see the anti-American rant is back unabated, with its flimsy poetic excuse for being on this board. Wonder when we'll hear about Joe Stalin's murder of 30 million people and the Sovietski's non-racist lack of interest in subjugating Laos, Cambodia, Thailand, and of course, Vietnam. I won't hold my breath. Purge. --Terry Ponick From moira_russell at hotmail.com Sun Jun 10 20:24:33 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 16:24:33 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Political Poetry & Love Poetry Message-ID: >poetry might deal with the sense of powerful drifts in one's own >unconscious life, or in other people's, that impede one's freedom to act >rationally, for a common good. It can even articulate hatred, though, if >it as sensitive as we wish poetry to be, it will also articulate the pain >of hatred as a state of mind. I doubt if anyone has ever written a decent poem thinking, "I resent the impediment of mine or others' freedom to act rationally, for a common good." This sounds suspiciously like the faux fables made up by bureaucratic clerks about Stalin which were then seeded around the countryside, gathered by equally faux "cultural anthropologists" and published as proof of the Volk's genuine, uninhibited, nonbourgeois natural love of Stalin. Perhaps it is my cynicism but it seems like the people who have the best intentions of using political power in the beginning are the ones who wind up with the bloodiest hands at the end.To argue that poetry, because of its sensitivity, would best portray the pain born of hatred seems a bit like arguing that a cello, because of its musicality, would best be used to represent the moans of suffering. I am tempted to wrap this up saying ISTM "Everything is political, nothing is political," but someone else, of course, said it far better, and he had far more of a right to say it than I do. Moira Russell Seattle, WA *** Name me the final number, the highest, the greatest. But that's absurd! If the number of numbers is infinite, how can there be a final number? Then how can you speak of a final revolution? There is no final one. Revolutions are infinite. (We, 1920) Revolution is everywhere, in everything. It is infinite. There is no final revolution, no final number. The social revolution is only one of an infinite number of numbers: the law of revolution is not a social law, but an immeasurably greater one. It is a cosmic, universal law ? like the laws of the conservation of energy and of the dissipation of energy (entropy). (On Literature, Revolution, Entropy, and Other Matters, 1923) The myth about the angel who rebelled against his Lord is the most beautiful of all myths, the proudest, the most revolutionary, the most immortal of them all. (The Day and the Age, 1924) -- Yevgeny Zamyatin _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From JforJames at aol.com Sun Jun 10 21:24:47 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 21:24:47 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Political Poetry & Love Poetry Message-ID: <5f.16570202.285577df@aol.com> Robinson Jeffers certainly wrote his share of political screeds; and some love poems along way....here's a late poem by Jeffers. It's untitled; written after Una's death: It nearly cancels my fear of death, my dearest said, When I think of cremation. To rot in the earth Is a loathsome end, but to roar up in flame--besides, I am used to it. I have flamed with love or fury so often in my life, No wonder my body is tired, no wonder it is dying. We had great joy in my body. Scatter the ashes. --- Finnegan From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Sun Jun 10 23:59:13 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 20:59:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Peace Talks (the politics of war) Message-ID: <20010611035913.BCAC7273F@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From rloden at concentric.net Mon Jun 11 07:51:38 2001 From: rloden at concentric.net (Rachel Loden) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 04:51:38 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Political Poetry & Love Poetry: Why Choose References: Message-ID: <3B24B0CA.8427B800@concentric.net> My solution to the conundrum (political poetry v. love poetry) is simple: combine them. After all, politicians need love too (presidents especially!) and love poetry needs nails and teeth. So why not write love poems to pols? The sample below first appeared in the _Paris Review_ and then in _Hotel Imperium_ (University of Georgia Press), a book as yet unflogged here. Am indicating italics *with stars*: BRIDE OF TRICKY D. YORBA LINDA, California . . . Plans are afoot to exhume [Checkers], who died in 1964, and rebury him near the former president on the grounds of the Nixon presidential library. --http://cnn.com/US/9704/27/briefs.pm/nixon.checkers/ And the rest is taps, or reveille. Maybe he lies with dog & god beneath the Yorba Linda pines, adrift in history. There is no way he's rumbling on about the next campaign, how crack advance men break & enter paradise while blas? press fly back to Washington. Somebody's shroud is in a twist but it's so deadly smug out on the new world order battlements. "Let's slip the Constitution, Richard, cut red ribbon on the virgin century. Teach me tonight . . . ." I find his fierce beard lovely and the shadows long. *Asleep with Pat & Checkers by his side . . . .* "We could do it," he'll say, "but it would be wrong." --Rachel Loden __________________________________________________________________ http://www.thepomegranate.com/loden/hotel.html email: rloden at concentric.net From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Mon Jun 11 09:57:27 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 06:57:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Political Poetry & Love Poetry: Why Choose Message-ID: <20010611135727.572EB36F9@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 11 10:42:42 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R. Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:42:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Peace Talks (the politics of war) References: <20010611035913.BCAC7273F@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <3B24D8E2.159D@ix.netcom.com> Sorry, but I've lost Moira's email about the beauty of a poem being separate from its political content. How would this apply to Ezra Pound's Cantos? Over on the Pound list, the general concensus is that you cannot separate his fascism and anti-semitism from the poem. How is this judgement influenced by the apriori historical concensus of any audience as regards Mussolini's Fascism and the Nazi's? CP From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Mon Jun 11 13:09:37 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 12:09:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Polipoetics/C.K. Williams Message-ID: I fear what my email program will do to the linebreaks, but pasted below is the text of a poem by C. K. Williams that Alan Williamson singles out for praise in the essay on poetry & politics that I excerpted from yesterday. Following the poem, I'll give the concluding paragraphs of Williamson's essay, which I think give a fair enough sense of his stance--though of course the whole essay is worth study. Earlier in the piece, he analyzes the Williams poem in considerable detail, along with Yeats's "Easter 1916". Here's the Williams: TAR The first morning of Three Mile Island: those first disquieting, uncertain, mystifying hours. All morning a crew of workmen have been tearing the old decrepit roof off our building, and all morning, trying to distract myself, I've been wandering out to watch them as they hack away the leaden layers of asbestos paper and disassemble the disintegrating drains. After half a night of listening to the news, wondering how to know a hundred miles downwind if and when to make a run for it and where, then a coming bolt awake at seven when the roofers we've been waiting for since winter sent their ladders shrieking up our wall, we still know less than nothing: the utility company continues making little of the accident, the slick federal spokesmen still have their evasions in some semblance of order. Surely we suspect now we're being lied to, but in the meantime, there are the roofers, setting winch-frames, sledging rounds of tar apart, and there I am, on the curb across, gawking. I never realized what brutal work it is, how matter-of-factly and harrowingly dangerous. The ladders flex and quiver, things skid from the edge, the materials are bulky and recalcitrant. When the rusty, antique nails are levered out, their heads pull off; the underroofing crumbles. Even the battered little furnace, roaring along as patient as a donkey, chokes and clogs, a dense, malignant smoke shoots up, and someone has to fiddle with a cock, then hammer it, before the gush and stench will deintensify, the dark, Dantean broth wearily subside. In its crucible, the stuff looks bland, like licorice, spill it, though, on your boots or coveralls, it sears, and everything is permeated with it, the furnace gunked with burst and half-burst bubbles, the men themselves so completely slashed and mucked they seem almost from another realm, like trolls. When they take their break, they leave their brooms standing at attention in the asphalt pails, work gloves dinging like Br'er Rabbit to the bitten shafts, and they slouch along the precipitous lip, the enormous sky behind them, the heavy noontime air alive with shimmers and mirages. Sometime in the afternoon I had to go inside: the advent of our vigil was upon us. However much we didn't want to, however little we would do about it, we'd understood: we were going to perish of all this, if not now, then soon, if not soon, then someday. Someday, some final generation, hysterically aswarm beneath an atmosphere as unrelenting as rock, would rue us all, anathematize our earthly comforts, curse our surfeits and submissions. I think I know, though I might rather not, why my roofers stay so clear to me and why the rest, the terror of that time, the reflexive disbelief and distancing, all we should hold on to, dims so. I remember the president in his absurd protective booties, looking absolutely unafraid, the fool. I remember a woman on the front page glaring across the misty Susquehanna at those looming stacks. But, more vividly, the men, silvered with glitter from the shingles, clinging like starlings beneath the eaves. Even the leftover carats of tar in the gutter, so black they seemed to suck the light out of the air. By nightfall kids had come across them: every sidewalk on the block was scribbled with obscenities and hearts. --C. K. Williams. *Poems 1963-1983*. (Farrar Straus Giroux, 1988): 217-9. Alan Williamson, *Eloquence & Mere Life*: _________________ Williams's roofers can be seen as such a "mnemic object." For they have, in fact, preserved the "terror of the time, the reflexive disbelief and distancing," in a form that could issue in a poem, not an editorial. And they have shaped a future "understanding" which is complex, involving basic human motives and collective complicity. Whether such aesthetic recovery is an adequate response is, of course, another question--one the poem itself addresses, obliquely and symbolically, at the end: Even the leftover carats of tar in the gutter, so black they seemed to suck the light out of the air. By nightfall kids had come across them: every sidewalk on the block was scribbled with obscenities and hearts. Will the human race survive because of its daily inventiveness, or perish because of its daily denial? Especially when the inventiveness expresses all sides of our nature, "obscenities and hearts." The prophecy pulls toward one answer, as does the light "suck[ed] ... out of the air"; the mildly upbeat tone of the last line pulls toward another. We are left--as we are left--in the middle. These poems--and one could of course adduce others--neither separate the "personal" from the "political," nor politicize the personal in order to push it toward one monolithic interpretation; rather, they set the political in the fuller context of being human. Whether the reader finds them as deeply satisfying as I do will depend, largely, on what he or she wants from poetry. If one wants a rallying cry or a marching song, Williams's poem is much too defeatist, and even Yeats's too qualified. If one wants historical or sociological information, the kind of information from which the middle-class reader is likely to be sheltered, then Forche's "witness" is an honorable other tradition. But if one thinks of poetry as its own very special kind of knowledge, moving between different areas of consciousness as it moves between the abstract principle and the individual case--then one will be grateful for the kinds of information more argumentative media cannot bring. For auras, ambivalences, unconscious drifts; for Yeats's sense both of the limitations of the political life and the transforming power of its images; for Williams's sense of how complexly our inventiveness and our cowardice, together, are hurtling us toward the unknown future. ____________________ David Graham __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From JBCM2 at aol.com Mon Jun 11 13:41:09 2001 From: JBCM2 at aol.com (JBCM2 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 13:41:09 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] for those who can stand something other than sentiment in their poetry..... Message-ID: <30.161fd3b8.28565cb5@aol.com> Subj: (Fwd) Call for Works of Compassionate Witness...Tell the Stori Date: 06/11/2001 10:45:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time From: BPeters at southampton.liu.edu (Barbara Peters) Sender: owner-WORKING-CLASS-LIST at listserv.liu.edu Reply-to: BPeters at southampton.liu.edu To: working-class-list at listserv.liunet.edu FYI ------- Forwarded message follows ------- Date sent: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 10:39:38 -0400 Send reply to: ahs-talk at listserv.ncsu.edu From: "Montgomery, Laura E." To: "'L.Montgomery at mindspring.com'" , "'AHS'" , "'Boggess, Eric'" Subject: Call for Works of Compassionate Witness...Tell the Stories -----Original Message----- From: Cathy Hyslop Hammack [mailto:Dazzle at dazzle.freeservers.com] Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 11:13 PM To: SOCIAL-CLASS at LISTSERV.UIC.EDU Subject: Fw: Call for Works of Compassionate Witness...Tell the Stories A Call for Manuscripts! Writings that Witness and Reveal Working Hard for the Money America's Working Poor: Stories and Poems Fiction, Poems, Personal Essays, Reportage Bottom Dog Press wants to publish a strong book of writings for, by, and about America's Working Poor: Working Class, Poor, Homeless, Down But Not Out. Give voice to the perspective of workers and families struggling to get by. Editors: Mary E. Weems & Larry Smith *Print this out...Don't forget us. Payment: $25-$50 and 2 copies We will consider reprints. Please indicate place and date of publication. Include a short 75 wd. bio sketch. Length limit to 3 poems, prose to 5,000 wds Deadline: March 4, 2002 .. No online submissions. Include SASE Send to: Bottom Dog Press "Working Hard" c/o Firelands College, Huron, Ohio 44839 Our Previous Books of Working-Class Writing: *Our Working Lives: Short Stories of People and Work, eds. Bonnie Jo Campbell and Larry Smith *Getting By: Stories of Working Lives eds. David Shevin and Larry Smith *Writing Work: Writers on Working-Class Writing, eds. Janet Zandy, David Shevin, & Larry Smith A Red Shadow of Steel Mills: Photos and Poems eds. David Shevin and Larry Smith ------- End of forwarded message ------- "Single Mothers play an important role in society raising the next generation. . . and deserve recognition and respect, not economic hardship." Joy Magezis Barbara J. Peters, Assistant Professor Social Sciences Division Long Island University - Southampton 239 Montauk Highway Southampton, NY 11968 (631) 287-8236 FAX: (631) 287-8203 e-mail bpeters at southampton.liunet.edu www.phoenix.liu.edu/~bpeters/WCA.htm ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from rly-zd05.mx.aol.com (rly-zd05.mail.aol.com [172.31.33.229]) by air-zd05.mail.aol.com (v78_r3.8) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:45:51 -0400 Received: from tornado.liunet.edu (www.southampton.liunet.edu [148.4.5.7]) by rly-zd05.mx.aol.com (v78_r3.8) with ESMTP; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:45:41 -0400 Received: from host (loopback [127.0.0.1]) by tornado.liunet.edu (Switch-2.0.3/Switch-2.0.3) with SMTP id f5BEgZW24226; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:42:35 -0400 Received: from webmail.liu.edu (webmail.liunet.edu [148.4.5.10]) by tornado.liunet.edu (Switch-2.0.3/Switch-2.0.3) with SMTP id f5BEfVW23060 for ; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:41:31 -0400 Received: FROM squall.liunet.edu BY webmail.liu.edu ; Mon Jun 11 10:50:44 2001 -0400 Received: from sand.liunet.edu (sand.liunet.edu [148.4.55.242]) by squall.liunet.edu (Switch-2.0.0/Switch-2.0.0) with ESMTP id f5BEijv13798 for ; Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:44:45 -0400 Received: from SAND/SpoolDir by sand.liunet.edu (Mercury 1.47); 11 Jun 01 10:52:40 -0500 Received: from SpoolDir by SAND (Mercury 1.47); 11 Jun 01 10:52:11 -0500 Message-Id: <3B24A2DA.1846.2FBBFF at localhost> Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:52:09 -0500 Reply-To: BPeters at southampton.liu.edu Sender: owner-WORKING-CLASS-LIST at listserv.liu.edu Precedence: bulk From: "Barbara Peters" To: working-class-list at listserv.liunet.edu Subject: (Fwd) Call for Works of Compassionate Witness...Tell the Stori MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-mailer: Pegasus Mail for Win32 (v3.12c) X-Listprocessor-Version: 7.2 -- ListProcessor by CREN From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Mon Jun 11 13:55:08 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 10:55:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Peace Talks (the politics of war) Message-ID: <20010611175508.5457A3ECC@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From DICK at watson.ibm.com Mon Jun 11 14:03:51 2001 From: DICK at watson.ibm.com (DICK at watson.ibm.com) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 01 14:03:51 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] WCU Formalist Conference Message-ID: <200106111806.OAA17534@sp1n189at0.watson.ibm.com> ... was mentioned several times on this list before the fact. Would any of the attendees care to post a trip report? Richard From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 11 15:31:58 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R. Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 15:31:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Peace Talks (the politics of war) References: <20010611175508.5457A3ECC@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <3B251CAE.5C77@ix.netcom.com> Dear Robert Cobb, I know many readers find the Cantos a bit much ideologically and stylistically as well as too scholarly and containg too much cited material. But what about Hugh Selwyn Mauberley especially its 'formalist' sections? Isn't there things to admire there even in the same way one might admire the shorter Eliot or Philip Larkin? CP Robert R.Cobb wrote: > > I suppose that you could always fall back on the idea "that beauty is in the eye of the beholder," or "beauty is skin-deep, but ugly goes clear to the bone!" If Pound could not separate his "pound of flesh" from his beliefs in fascism and anti-semitism, then let his poetry be judged accordingly. If he counted Mussolini and Hitler in his poetry audience, Ezra's Cantos had to be to their liking ideologies; and,provide propaganda for their political and military machinations. I have never cared > > Bob Cobb > > --- "R. Gancie/C.Parcelli" > > wrote: > >Sorry, but I've lost Moira's email about the beauty of a poem being > >separate from its political content. How would this apply to Ezra > >Pound's Cantos? Over on the Pound list, the general concensus is that > >you cannot separate his fascism and anti-semitism from the poem. How is > >this judgement influenced by the apriori historical concensus of any > >audience as regards Mussolini's Fascism and the Nazi's? CP > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > == > Poetry Catamaran > > "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" > > Robert R. Cobb > AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. > http://rrcobb.tripod.com > > _____________________________________________________________ > ----- > Check out my portfolio at www.talent.com > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Mon Jun 11 05:43:09 2001 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 04:43:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] WCU Formalist Conference In-Reply-To: <200106111806.OAA17534@sp1n189at0.watson.ibm.com> Message-ID: on 6/11/01 1:03 PM, DICK at watson.ibm.com at DICK at watson.ibm.com wrote: > ... was mentioned several times on this list before the fact. > Would any of the attendees care to post a trip report? > > Richard > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Dick, a quick reaction would include the following highlights at West Chester: A great reading by Richard Wilbur, preceded by a beautiful encomium by Anthony Hecht. Large excerpts from Dana Gioia and Alva Henderson's opera _Nosferatu_ were wonderfully performed. There were over 200 poets and aspiring poets in attendance. I discovered, for myself, the poetry of Michael Donaghy, whose reading was remarkably funny and good. And there were two critical seminars, one on the poetry of Richard Wilbur, and one on the contemporary narrative poetry, which should result in some interesting essays and books by the participants. A great feeling of camaraderie pervaded the place. Students said it was the best conference they'd ever been to. And our own Sam Gwynn performed his ballad "Double Wide" during a final talent show night that featured some damned fine music by Leslie Monsour and Will Mills, among others. I had a great time there, and my essay "Speaking Silence in the Mother Tongue" was well-received when read on a panel on Postmodernism and New Formalism--making it personally rewarding as well. Paul Lake Paul Lake From rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu Mon Jun 11 21:25:25 2001 From: rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu (rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 18:25:25 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Political poetry and love poetry Message-ID: <3.0.32.20010611182524.0069edf4@medicine.nodak.edu> As a consumer-not-producer of poetry, I have been been sitting in the grandstand of this Wimbleton match, watching the debate about political poetry slash back and forth across the net, wondering if I would ever have the courage to step out on that court. Taking heart from comments of Moira Russell, David Graham, and others, I found enough end-of-the- workday nerve to make this small contribution (and request): Two characteristics of a good "political" poem for me is that it (a) makes politics personal (such as "Tar" about Three Mile Island) and it (b) digs hooks into my conscience so that I can't forget it when I want to. I recently encountered such a poem, in the Poetry Daily series, by Connie Voisine from her collection *Cathedral of the North.* Like some others cited in this thread, I think it manages to speak about both love and politics: (I hope the lines and line breaks stay intact) ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Hungry when I was fourteen I wrote lies to an incarcerated man in Florida lies about my pretty clothes palomino disco records gold rings my mother bought me he believed me I knew it was a sin but I was so poor and hated having to eat anything that was free my prisoner wrote he wanted to lick my legs slowly like two popsicles down to the white stick I traded our surplus cheese from the state for an electric Lady Shaver and I shaved myself for days in secret the disco on the radio flooding over my legs I bent I twisted touched every inch with the razor the plastic shell buzzed in my hand and numbed my skin while my mother pounded my door I was hungry I yelled she kept on pounding we all are too -------------------------------------------------------------------------- My small request: if this is not an example of good political poetry, could someone help me understand why? Maybe that would help me painlessly unhook that last line from memory. Richard W. Wilsnack Department of Neuroscience University of North Dakota School of Medicine & Health Sciences Grand Forks, ND 58202-9037 rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu P. S. Would "Ozymandias" be regarded, by some of the critics quoted, as a worthy "political" poem? And Sandburg's "Grass"? (But there's no love in those.) From bardo at optonline.net Mon Jun 11 22:10:08 2001 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 22:10:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Political poetry and love poetry References: <3.0.32.20010611182524.0069edf4@medicine.nodak.edu> Message-ID: <008701c0f2e4$d0940240$ef7dbd18@win98> Richard, "Hungry" hits like Olson's "Polis is eyes" mot & "There was a youth named Thomas Granger" do more publicly, as also moreso cummings "I sing of Olaf" & Dorn's _North Atlantic Turbine_ & _Recollections of La Gran Apacheria_ & Corso's "Bomb" & Rupert Brooke & "The Death of the Ball Turret Gunner" too, superbly political, but perish McVeigh & his hideous zombieing in of "Invictus" as if that strut & bravura qualified as public address in the wake of Whitman Ginsberg Sanders Dylan & their juggernautical salvific hobo ilk, up against it, down 'n dirty, no excuses. That last line in "Hungry" tries both ways to offer an excuse, & fails both ways, & that, for me, makes it political, like those famous mules tied tail to tail straining toward piles of hay & starving. The human condition, hanging chads, the divorce case of Tantalus v. Tantalus. "I didn't know there was a subject," Olson says. Power, as Plato says, to the people least addicted to it. Daniel Zimmerman Edison, New Jersey P.S.: Micropolitical Found Political Poems: Spiro Agnew: Grow A Penis George W. Bush: He Grew Bogus ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, June 11, 2001 9:25 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Political poetry and love poetry > As a consumer-not-producer of poetry, I have been > been sitting in the grandstand of this Wimbleton > match, watching the debate about political poetry > slash back and forth across the net, wondering if > I would ever have the courage to step out on that > court. Taking heart from comments of Moira Russell, > David Graham, and others, I found enough end-of-the- > workday nerve to make this small contribution > (and request): > > Two characteristics of a good "political" poem > for me is that it (a) makes politics personal > (such as "Tar" about Three Mile Island) and it > (b) digs hooks into my conscience so that I > can't forget it when I want to. > > I recently encountered such a poem, in the > Poetry Daily series, by Connie Voisine from her > collection *Cathedral of the North.* Like some > others cited in this thread, I think it manages > to speak about both love and politics: > > (I hope the lines and line breaks stay intact) > > -------------------------------------------------- --------------------- > > Hungry > > when I was fourteen I wrote lies to an incarcerated man in Florida > lies about my pretty clothes palomino disco records gold rings my mother > bought me he believed me I knew it was a sin but I was so > poor and hated having to eat anything that was free my prisoner wrote > he wanted to lick my legs slowly like two popsicles down > to the white stick I traded our surplus cheese from the state > for an electric Lady Shaver and I shaved myself for days > in secret the disco on the radio flooding over my legs I bent I twisted > touched every inch with the razor the plastic shell buzzed in my hand > and numbed my skin while my mother pounded my door > I was hungry I yelled she kept on pounding we all are too > > > -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------ > > My small request: if this is not an example of good political poetry, > could someone help me understand why? Maybe that would help me painlessly > unhook that last line from memory. > > Richard W. Wilsnack > Department of Neuroscience > University of North Dakota School of Medicine & Health Sciences > Grand Forks, ND 58202-9037 > rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu > > P. S. Would "Ozymandias" be regarded, by some of the critics quoted, as a > worthy "political" poem? And Sandburg's "Grass"? (But there's no love in > those.) > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Tue Jun 12 00:44:03 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 21:44:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Peace Talks (the politics of war) Message-ID: <20010612044403.EEE7C36F9@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From ron.silliman at gte.net Tue Jun 12 07:23:00 2001 From: ron.silliman at gte.net (Ron Silliman) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 07:23:00 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] W Chester conf (article in the Inky) Message-ID: <001001c0f332$0c7ce540$3353fea9@oemcomputer> A funny article on that funny conference: http://inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2001/06/12/magazine/POETS12.htm From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 12 07:35:00 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R. Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 07:35:00 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Peace Talks (the politics of war) References: <20010612044403.EEE7C36F9@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <3B25FE64.5B02@ix.netcom.com> No, in this correspondent's estimation, far from from being a "shortcoming" there is not much to admire in the "personal politics" of these three gentlemen which gets us back on track as regards my original question concerning Pound, specifically the Pound of the Cantos, and the poems imaginative and aestheitc virtues set in a to-what-degree abhorrent ideological framework. CP Robert R.Cobb wrote: > > Yes, there are things to admire in all of the poets that you have mentioned. I admire Pound for his, (Mauberly's) efforts "to resuscitate the dead art of poetry." And for his attempt to go beyond "the obscure reveries of the inward gaze." I also admire Eliot's > > > --- "R. Gancie/C.Parcelli" > > wrote: > >Dear Robert Cobb, > > > >I know many readers find the Cantos a bit much ideologically and > >stylistically as well as too scholarly and containg too much cited > >material. But what about Hugh Selwyn Mauberley especially its > >'formalist' sections? Isn't there things to admire there even in the > >same way one might admire the shorter Eliot or Philip Larkin? CP > > > >Robert R.Cobb wrote: > >> > >> I suppose that you could always fall back on the idea "that beauty is in the eye of the beholder," or "beauty is skin-deep, but ugly goes clear to the bone!" If Pound could not separate his "pound of flesh" from his beliefs in fascism and anti-semitism, then let his poetry be judged accordingly. If he counted Mussolini and Hitler in his poetry audience, Ezra's Cantos had to be to their liking ideologies; and,provide propaganda for their political and military machinations. I have never car > >> > >> Bob Cobb > >> > >> --- "R. Gancie/C.Parcelli" > >> > wrote: > >> >Sorry, but I've lost Moira's email about the beauty of a poem being > >> >separate from its political content. How would this apply to Ezra > >> >Pound's Cantos? Over on the Pound list, the general concensus is that > >> >you cannot separate his fascism and anti-semitism from the poem. How is > >> >this judgement influenced by the apriori historical concensus of any > >> >audience as regards Mussolini's Fascism and the Nazi's? CP > >> > > >> >_______________________________________________ > >> >New-Poetry mailing list > >> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > >> == > >> Poetry Catamaran > >> > >> "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" > >> > >> Robert R. Cobb > >> AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. > >> http://rrcobb.tripod.com > >> > >> _____________________________________________________________ > >> ----- > >> Check out my portfolio at www.talent.com > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > == > Poetry Catamaran > > "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" > > Robert R. Cobb > AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. > http://rrcobb.tripod.com > > _____________________________________________________________ > ----- > Check out my portfolio at www.talent.com > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 12 07:55:39 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R. Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 07:55:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Peace Talks (the politics of war) References: <20010612044403.EEE7C36F9@sitemail.everyone.net> <3B25FE64.5B02@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3B26033B.3D5C@ix.netcom.com> To be more clear, if Milton's Samson Agonistes can be read with profit and admired for its beauty outside of its political and ideological contexts, can Pound's Cantos be appreciated on the same grounds? Why? Why not? I further think it is invaluable to make at a least a dictionary distinction between 'politics' and history here. CP R. Gancie/C.Parcelli wrote: > > No, in this correspondent's estimation, far from from being a > "shortcoming" there is not much to admire in the "personal politics" of > these three gentlemen which gets us back on track as regards my original > question concerning Pound, specifically the Pound of the Cantos, and the > poems imaginative and aestheitc virtues set in a to-what-degree > abhorrent ideological framework. CP > > Robert R.Cobb wrote: > > > > Yes, there are things to admire in all of the poets that you have mentioned. I admire Pound for his, (Mauberly's) efforts "to resuscitate the dead art of poetry." And for his attempt to go beyond "the obscure reveries of the inward gaze." I also admire Eliot's > > > > > > --- "R. Gancie/C.Parcelli" > > > wrote: > > >Dear Robert Cobb, > > > > > >I know many readers find the Cantos a bit much ideologically and > > >stylistically as well as too scholarly and containg too much cited > > >material. But what about Hugh Selwyn Mauberley especially its > > >'formalist' sections? Isn't there things to admire there even in the > > >same way one might admire the shorter Eliot or Philip Larkin? CP > > > > > >Robert R.Cobb wrote: > > >> > > >> I suppose that you could always fall back on the idea "that beauty is in the eye of the beholder," or "beauty is skin-deep, but ugly goes clear to the bone!" If Pound could not separate his "pound of flesh" from his beliefs in fascism and anti-semitism, then let his poetry be judged accordingly. If he counted Mussolini and Hitler in his poetry audience, Ezra's Cantos had to be to their liking ideologies; and,provide propaganda for their political and military machinations. I have never c > > >> > > >> Bob Cobb > > >> > > >> --- "R. Gancie/C.Parcelli" > > >> > wrote: > > >> >Sorry, but I've lost Moira's email about the beauty of a poem being > > >> >separate from its political content. How would this apply to Ezra > > >> >Pound's Cantos? Over on the Pound list, the general concensus is that > > >> >you cannot separate his fascism and anti-semitism from the poem. How is > > >> >this judgement influenced by the apriori historical concensus of any > > >> >audience as regards Mussolini's Fascism and the Nazi's? CP > > >> > > > >> >_______________________________________________ > > >> >New-Poetry mailing list > > >> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >> > > >> == > > >> Poetry Catamaran > > >> > > >> "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" > > >> > > >> Robert R. Cobb > > >> AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. > > >> http://rrcobb.tripod.com > > >> > > >> _____________________________________________________________ > > >> ----- > > >> Check out my portfolio at www.talent.com > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> New-Poetry mailing list > > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >New-Poetry mailing list > > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > == > > Poetry Catamaran > > > > "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" > > > > Robert R. Cobb > > AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. > > http://rrcobb.tripod.com > > > > _____________________________________________________________ > > ----- > > Check out my portfolio at www.talent.com > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Jun 12 09:20:54 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 09:20:54 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] W Chester conf (article in the Inky) Message-ID: <29.162cf399.28577136@cs.com> Our tent may be large enough to house you, Prof. Silliman. You should consider attending the critical seminar next year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jun 12 09:25:38 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 09:25:38 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Rivard poem Message-ID: QUESTION FOR THE MAGIC HOUR Out of pocket & just before dark the wind simpers into town--tired, and a little annoyed, after having stewed for such a long, long time in its own bittersweet schemes and choices. A wind that's distracted, & vague, sniffly-- like a rabbit, or a sedated professor. It should come instead like a helpful devil or deadly god this wind. This wind should carry the horny summer smell of pine needles, such as those a boatload of nippled sleepers might breathe if anchored not too far from shore. Or else it should wander out of that alley back of the crossroad tavern my witchy sister-in-law once owned, the alley paved with pissed-on brick and crud spilled from dumpsters, a breeze fed by the dreamless constant roar of fryolator vents. Like a deadly god, or a helpful devil-- let the wind come like either of these, & fit to be tied, all right? I plan to hug it & hide it from my neighbors. for Mary Ruefle DAVID RIVARD --------------------------------- copyright (c) 2000 by David Rivard. From "Bewitched Playground," published by Graywolf Press (http://www.graywolfpress.org). From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Jun 12 09:28:21 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 09:28:21 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] WCU Formalist Conference Message-ID: <102.474d59a.285772f5@cs.com> In a message dated 6/11/01 1:07:50 PM Central Daylight Time, DICK at watson.ibm.com writes: > ... was mentioned several times on this list before the fact. > Would any of the attendees care to post a trip report? > > The non-attendance of Richard Attanasio and Moira Russell cast a pall over the conference that forced all of the attendees into heavy, lugubrious drinking for three days running. I don't think the conference ever quite bounced back from these absences. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Mon Jun 11 23:05:05 2001 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 22:05:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] West Chester & Silliman Message-ID: As a matter of fact, Steve Schneider, in our New Narrative seminar mentioned the possibility of discussing the work of Ron Silliman and Lynn Hejenian at next year's conference. I may in fact include them both myself in a paper. Paul Lake From grahamd at vbe.com Tue Jun 12 11:43:31 2001 From: grahamd at vbe.com (David Graham) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 10:43:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] W Chester conf (article in the Inky) Message-ID: <200106121543.f5CFhDi95998@mx1.mx.voyager.net> Haven't been to the West Chester conference myself, and can't comment on its funniness. But I have been interested to hear reports of it. No one would mistake me, even at a distance, for a rebel angel, but I'll go out on a limb here and say that it seems to me that much of what those folks have been saying is, well, *true*. Not all, by any means, but. . . a whole lot For example, Dana Gioia (with whom I do not always agree) is quoted in the article mentioned: "'You have to be taught not to like rhyme,' observes poet and critic Dana Gioia, lunching on Saturday in the student-center cafeteria, already deep into the final stretch of 'Exploring Form and Narrative,' the seventh annual West Chester University Poetry Conference. 'You have to be taught not to like stories. It requires a great deal of education not to like meter.'" Allowing for polemical sound-bite hyperbole, this strikes me as a sensible enough reminder that there may be some babies in the bathwater hurled out by a lot of modern/postmodern practice. David Graham ________________ David Graham grahamd at vbe.com ________________ ---------- >From: "Ron Silliman" >To: >Subject: [New-Poetry] W Chester conf (article in the Inky) >Date: Tue, Jun 12, 2001, 6:23 AM > >A funny article on that funny conference: > >http://inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2001/06/12/magazine/POETS12.htm > From moira_russell at hotmail.com Tue Jun 12 11:54:10 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 07:54:10 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] WCU Formalist Conference Message-ID: Sam wrote: >The non-attendance of Richard Attanasio and Moira Russell cast a pall over >the conference that forced all of the attendees into heavy, lugubrious >drinking for three days running. I don't think the conference ever quite >bounced back from these absences. Guilllllllllllllt.....well, first my parents said they _were_ visiting. Then my father developed horrible problems with some kind of crushed/skewed/screwed disk in his back. He couldn't shuffle across the bedroom to go to the john much less last on an airplane trip. Then he had cortisone shots and felt so much better the trip was on again, and just after I had been all nicely signed up by the Conference they happily informed me they would be in town for just......that.......weekend. Guillllllllllllt, again. In lots of directions. Rest assured there was some fairly heavy drinking up these parts when it became clear the God of Ironically Bad Timing has just as strong a grip as ever. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From ron.silliman at gte.net Tue Jun 12 12:23:45 2001 From: ron.silliman at gte.net (Ron Silliman) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:23:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tents in W. Chester Message-ID: <000701c0f35c$0fe9df60$3353fea9@oemcomputer> "Our tent may be large enough to house you, Prof. Silliman. You should consider attending the critical seminar next year." I've been there -- Jena Osman, Rachel Blau DuPless, Annie Finch & I did a panel there a few years back ('98 I think) immediately prior to Wendy Cope. Actually, I live all of six or seven miles from West Chester & have for years. If you want to see an impressive tent, I recommend Naropa -- that big old canvas outdoor auditorium is a major player in its summer programs. Not just sure where I got that "professorship." The terminal degree here is still a high school diploma, Ron From JNB17 at aol.com Tue Jun 12 13:24:54 2001 From: JNB17 at aol.com (JNB17 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:24:54 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Need quote, badly Message-ID: <99.1634f892.2857aa66@aol.com> Folks, I am almost embarrassed to turn to this crowd with this question. Scratch the almost. I am embarrassed but desperate and against a deadline. I need to identify a quote from a poem, one that I think I might have seen on someone's e-mail signature here. It is a quote about opening and/or removing a door, in the form of an inspired command or two, e.g., "open the door! Take it off its hinges!" Or something roughly like that but with livelier verbs. Could it have been Whitman? Extensive Google-ing has turned up nothing. Just so all is on the level, I need this "poem byte" not for academic or personal reasons. Rather, it plays into a silly corporate internal marketing campaign I have been charged to conceive. But don't withhold for this reason, please! Think of it as sending a little insidiously re-contextualized culture to a place where it is sorely needed, in any context. Any help? Long time lurker, John Burdick From Thom424 at aol.com Tue Jun 12 13:30:40 2001 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 13:30:40 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Need quote, badly Message-ID: <77.160d19ba.2857abc0@aol.com> Unscew the locks from the doors! Unscrew the doors themselves from their jambs! Section 24, "Song of Myself" by Walt Whitman From moira_russell at hotmail.com Tue Jun 12 14:27:49 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 10:27:49 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Need quote, badly Message-ID: Yet another one of those unnerving little New-Poetry moments where I saw the second post first, and the first post second. Time travel. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From artwords at idirect.com Tue Jun 12 16:45:51 2001 From: artwords at idirect.com (Tanya Adele Koehnke) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:45:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [New Poetry] Need quote, badly Message-ID: <3B267F7F.17ED@idirect.com> After I read John Burdick's request, I had a vague recollection of a book about poetry in advertising and/or the mass media. Does anyone know the title of this book? Tanya Adele Koehnke From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Tue Jun 12 16:24:56 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 15:24:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Need quote, badly In-Reply-To: <77.160d19ba.2857abc0@aol.com> Message-ID: And Ginsberg used this particular passage, of course, as epigraph to *Howl*. David Graham >Unscew the locks from the doors! >Unscrew the doors themselves from their jambs! > >Section 24, "Song of Myself" by Walt Whitman __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From moira_russell at hotmail.com Tue Jun 12 16:27:33 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:27:33 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] cowboy poetry parodies Message-ID: Jim wrote: >I've been yakking with John Gilgun and he's in the midst of writing >cowboy poetry parodies. He said it was o.k. for me to let this one >mosey on over to NewPoetry. Says he was inspired by a book David >Romtvedt is trying to get published, one in which the cowboy narrator >writes parodies of modernist poets. Priceless. Who is David Romtvedt, and how can I pry a copy of his book from him? Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From moira_russell at hotmail.com Tue Jun 12 16:37:56 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 12:37:56 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Political Poetry & Love Poetry Message-ID: >Robinson Jeffers certainly wrote his share of political screeds; >and some love poems along way....here's a late poem by Jeffers. I love Jeffers, but something about him changed for me a little bit once I read that Mary McCarthy scene where the hero seduces young women by reading them Jeffers because it means he is Virile. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From tadrichards at prodigy.net Tue Jun 12 16:50:21 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 16:50:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] teaching people not to like rhyme. References: <200106121543.f5CFhDi95998@mx1.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <00e101c0f381$4dc10500$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> I agree with this also, as far as it goes. But what does it mean, exactly, to be taught not to like rhyme, meter and stories? Who does this teaching? Surely it's not subversive menaces like Ron Silliman or Bob Grumman -- they don't have that kind of far-reaching influence on young, teachable minds in junior high and high school, much as they might like to. Unfortunately, all too often, it's people whose teaching has the opposite effect from what they intend -- people who teach formal poetry, and do it badly. All those teachers who don't read poetry themselves, don't like it, teach it because they have to. And...don't forget that junior highs and high schools all have a primary agenda, which is socialization. Civilization. Indoctrinating kids with the idea that it's a good thing to embrace the values of society. I'm not saying this is a bad thing to do. It's probably a good thing to do. But it puts the teaching of literature into this hidden agenda which is at odds with a whole lot of literature. Don't drink and do drugs and have promiscuous sex -- and look, all these great poets like Coleridge and Donne and Herrick are telling you the same thing! Their teachers aren't out there saying "Read Ginsberg and Bukowski -- they're great poets because they don't rhyme." They're more likely saying "Don't read Ginsberg and Bukowski." Even then, of course, most young people aren't taught not to like rhyme -- just not to like rhymed poetry. They still like rap, and pop ballads, and singing commercials. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Graham" To: Cc: Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2001 11:43 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] W Chester conf (article in the Inky) > Haven't been to the West Chester conference myself, and can't comment on its > funniness. But I have been interested to hear reports of it. > > No one would mistake me, even at a distance, for a rebel angel, but I'll go > out on a limb here and say that it seems to me that much of what those folks > have been saying is, well, *true*. Not all, by any means, but. . . a whole > lot > > For example, Dana Gioia (with whom I do not always agree) is quoted in the > article mentioned: "'You have to be taught not to like rhyme,' observes > poet and critic Dana Gioia, lunching on Saturday in the student-center > cafeteria, already deep into the final stretch of 'Exploring Form and > Narrative,' the seventh annual West Chester University Poetry Conference. > 'You have to be taught not to like stories. It requires a great deal of > education not to like meter.'" > > Allowing for polemical sound-bite hyperbole, this strikes me as a sensible > enough reminder that there may be some babies in the bathwater hurled out by > a lot of modern/postmodern practice. > > David Graham > > > ________________ > David Graham > grahamd at vbe.com > ________________ > > ---------- > >From: "Ron Silliman" > >To: > >Subject: [New-Poetry] W Chester conf (article in the Inky) > >Date: Tue, Jun 12, 2001, 6:23 AM > > > > >A funny article on that funny conference: > > > >http://inq.philly.com/content/inquirer/2001/06/12/magazine/POETS12.htm > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jholmes at boisestate.edu Tue Jun 12 16:57:06 2001 From: jholmes at boisestate.edu (Janet Holmes) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:57:06 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] David & Dana Message-ID: Hi David -- In defense of postmodernists, there are enough bad rhymed and metered poems out there to teach some folks who aren't even familiar with critical agendas not to like those conventions, just as there's enough flabby open form work (from a variety of camps) to disgust New Formalists. We can all put our arms around each other -- group hug! -- and puke together. (Erm, or not.) Janet Holmes http://english.boisestate.edu/jholmes http://ahsahtapress.boisestate.edu From wasanthony at yahoo.com Tue Jun 12 17:20:20 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 14:20:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] cowboy poetry parodies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010612212020.1419.qmail@web12104.mail.yahoo.com> --- Moira Russell wrote: > Jim wrote: > > >I've been yakking with John Gilgun and he's in the midst of writing > >cowboy poetry parodies. He said it was o.k. for me to let this one > >mosey on over to NewPoetry. Says he was inspired by a book David > >Romtvedt is trying to get published, one in which the cowboy > narrator > >writes parodies of modernist poets. > > Priceless. > > Who is David Romtvedt, and how can I pry a copy of his book from him? > Romtvedt is in Wyoming. The books is titled Powder River Breaks: A Cowboy's Introduction to American Poetry, and there's and article and interview at (also his e-mail address) - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35 a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From mbmc3 at home.com Wed Jun 13 00:09:48 2001 From: mbmc3 at home.com (Michael McColl) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 00:09:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Message-ID: <20010613041146.LSYK14901.femail12.sdc1.sfba.home.com@[24.40.75.42]> set new-poetry nomail From JNB17 at aol.com Wed Jun 13 13:37:04 2001 From: JNB17 at aol.com (JNB17 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 13:37:04 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] re: need quote badly Message-ID: <24.14df630c.2858fec0@aol.com> Thanks, everyone. I can't believe that I didn't recognize it as the epigraph in Howl. Nor can I believe how comically far off my recollection of it was. The internal marketing campaign has to do with enthusing a team of pharmaceutical sales representatives to use a new market access tool, i.e., one that will "open the doors" of health care professionals and render them sympathetic to the rep's pitch. Thus Walt's unscrewed locks and hinges. I feel like a walking target of a Tom Frank essay, but I appreciate your support. (I even thought about using "find the stable and pull out the bolt" from Yeats' Fascination of What's Difficult, but thought better of it.) John Burdick From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Jun 13 22:55:51 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 22:55:51 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Daily Message-ID: <25.16b49d23.285981b7@cs.com> I've just learned from Poetry Daily that I shall be Poet du jour on 25 June: http://www.poems.com Sam Gwynn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From moira_russell at hotmail.com Thu Jun 14 00:18:38 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 20:18:38 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Daily Message-ID: Sam wrote: >I've just learned from Poetry Daily that I shall be Poet du jour on 25 >June: http://www.poems.com/ **Congratulations**, Sam! Do you know which poem? Did you have a say in the matter? Just curious. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From tadrichards at prodigy.net Thu Jun 14 08:01:55 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 08:01:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Daily References: <25.16b49d23.285981b7@cs.com> Message-ID: <001801c0f4c9$cf80c320$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Sam -- congratulations. I'll look forward to reading you on the 25th -- or more likely the 26th; I'll be on a plane the 25th. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 10:55 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Daily I've just learned from Poetry Daily that I shall be Poet du jour on 25 June: http://www.poems.com Sam Gwynn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Jun 14 11:00:35 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 11:00:35 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Daily Message-ID: In a message dated 6/13/2001 11:19:32 PM Central Daylight Time, moira_russell at hotmail.com writes: > **Congratulations**, Sam! Do you know which poem? Did you have a say in > the matter? Just curious. > > "Randolph Field, 1938" and "Release," picked by the editors. The former is a little more "mainstream," I guess. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Thu Jun 14 12:12:23 2001 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (chris stroffolino) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 12:12:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] COME CELEBRATE THE 30th ANNIVERSARY OF JIM MORRISON'S DEATH Message-ID: <3B28E266.DA6738EE@earthlink.net> FREE..... On Tuesday, July 3, 2001 @ Teachers & Writers 5 Union Square West, 7th Floor 7PM (for more info, calll 212-691-6590) a book party for two new Spuyten Duyvil Books. "Are Not Our Lowing Heifers Sleeker Than Night-Swollen Mushroom?" a book of poetry by NADA GORDON and "SPIN CYCLE" a book of essays/reviews/prose by CHRIS STROFFOLINO Nada Gordon will be reading from her work and several of the writers written about in Chris Stroffolino's book will also read--- David Shapiro Jane Ransom Yuri Hospodar and perhaps others... there may also be music... and copies of the books and mr. novo. rais'n.... From tadrichards at prodigy.net Thu Jun 14 19:59:11 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 19:59:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] In this corner, form and rhyme... Message-ID: <004101c0f52e$02ca7fa0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Glynn Maxwell, in an interview in The Atlantic, is asked "What about form and rhyme in America? Why do they have so many enemies here?" What constitutes an enemy of form and rhyme? Someone who doesn't use them? Or someone who goes to the barricades and attacks them? Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards From MillB at aol.com Thu Jun 14 20:23:01 2001 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:23:01 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] In this corner-- Message-ID: <113.5077f4.285aaf65@aol.com> Greetings Group: I thought I might "throw out" this idea to the masses. After nearly ten years of hibernation where the only fraternizing I do is at poetry readings and AWP conferences. . .I decided to try a "grand experiment." I've contacted (via e-mail and snail mail) a number of writers in my area (Los Angeles, Santa Monica, Venice)--with the idea of maybe getting together. I constructed a list from the latest and greatest Poets and Writers Directory. Maybe drinks and some gossip. Maybe a monthly Writers Group. Not sure yet. Never done anything like this before. Just wanted to connect with like-minded folks. Any thoughts on Writers Groups? or Salons. Any good or bad experiences? Advice? Suggestions? Cheers, Millicent From moira_russell at hotmail.com Thu Jun 14 21:51:48 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 17:51:48 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] In this corner, form and rhyme... Message-ID: The old mole said well: >What constitutes an enemy of form and rhyme? Someone who doesn't use them? >Or someone who goes to the barricades and attacks them? I don't think of it as someone who chooses not to use form and rhyme; if someone prefers to write free verse or concrete poetry or whatever, I don't really care. "Enemies" is also a bit strong for me. I think more of some of the attitudes I've seen evidenced on this list, even, which is quite diverse and where people are usually quite polite: that form is 'outmoded' and can no longer express anything relevant artistically (sometimes I think of this as The Twelve-Tone Artistic Argument), that formalists are conservative in their politics, that formalists tend to be all male, etc etc. But the nice thing is that here that seems to be a minority opinion (among those who speak -- can't say anything for the lurkers, of course). Finding someone on the list like David Graham more than makes up for a dart which may sting for a moment or two. I actually think the influence of postmodernism and, yes, rather rigid PC idealism, is leaching away, and perhaps there's more an air of democracy, or as Socrates describes that in the market, "an open bazaar -- " where we can have Robert Cobb and R.S. Gwyn on the same list, langpo and lyricism and formalism, and plenty of overlapping discussion about all of it. I like that better than people squaring off talking about "enemies." Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From jholmes at boisestate.edu Thu Jun 14 21:54:05 2001 From: jholmes at boisestate.edu (Janet Holmes) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 19:54:05 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Yet MORE s.s.p. Message-ID: (Shameless Self-Promotion, that is. Would love to see/meet anyone who'll be in the area Saturday.) The Ear Inn Readings Saturdays at 3:00 326 Spring Street, west of Greenwich New York City FREE June 16 Al Greenberg, Janet Holmes, Fred Marchant The Ear Inn Readings Michael Broder, Director Patrick Donnelly, Lisa Freedman, Kathleen E. Krause, Jason Schneiderman, Co-Directors Martha Rhodes, Executive Director The Ear is one block north of Canal Street, a couple blocks west of Hudson. The closest trains are the 1-9 to Canal Street @ Varick, the A to Canal Street @ Sixth Ave, or the C-E to Spring Street@ Sixth Ave. For additional information, contact Michael Broder at (212) 246-5074. From moira_russell at hotmail.com Thu Jun 14 21:56:13 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 17:56:13 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Erratum E-slip Message-ID: >more an air of democracy, or as Socrates describes that in the market, "an >open bazaar -- " Wups. Should be =more an air of democracy, or, as Socrates describes that concept as a marketplace in 'The Republic,' "an open bazaar -- " where philosophy (and poetry?) can only truly flourish.= Brain went one way, fingers another. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From wasanthony at yahoo.com Thu Jun 14 22:05:33 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 19:05:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] In this corner-- In-Reply-To: <113.5077f4.285aaf65@aol.com> Message-ID: <20010615020533.82544.qmail@web12102.mail.yahoo.com> --- MillB at aol.com wrote: > Greetings Group: > > I thought I might "throw out" this idea to the masses. > > After nearly ten years of hibernation where the only fraternizing I > do is at > poetry readings and AWP conferences. . .I decided to try a "grand > experiment." > > I've contacted (via e-mail and snail mail) a number of writers in my > area > (Los Angeles, Santa Monica, Venice)--with the idea of maybe getting > together. > I constructed a list from the latest and greatest Poets and Writers > Directory. > > Maybe drinks and some gossip. Maybe a monthly Writers Group. Not > sure yet. > Never done anything like this before. Just wanted to connect with > like-minded folks. > > Any thoughts on Writers Groups? or Salons. Any good or bad > experiences? > Advice? Suggestions? Good luck, Millicent. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From gmcvay at patriot.net Thu Jun 14 23:02:30 2001 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 23:02:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] In this corner, form and rhyme... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>>Robert Cobb and R.S. Gwyn on the same list, Fine! We'll declare the merger: R.S. Gwyn McVay, Inc. But who bought who? Gwyn of one N From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Thu Jun 14 23:40:01 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:40:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] In this corner, form and rhyme... Message-ID: <20010615034001.4368236F9@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From moira_russell at hotmail.com Fri Jun 15 00:25:21 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 20:25:21 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] In this corner, form and rhyme... Message-ID: > >Fine! We'll declare the merger: R.S. Gwyn McVay, Inc. But who bought who? Damn typos typoes? no, typos I think.... Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Jun 15 00:42:52 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:42:52 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] In this corner, form and rhyme... Message-ID: In a message dated 6/14/2001 7:04:32 PM Central Daylight Time, tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: > What constitutes an enemy of form and rhyme? Someone who doesn't use them? > Or someone who goes to the barricades and attacks them? > > I think it's the latter, Tad. These devices are so well established in the poetic tradition that I frankly can't understand why anyone would wish to attack them. There should be room enough in contemporary practice for those who choose to use them. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Jun 15 00:50:05 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:50:05 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] In this corner, form and rhyme... Message-ID: In a message dated 6/14/2001 10:03:29 PM Central Daylight Time, gmcvay at patriot.net writes: > Fine! We'll declare the merger: R.S. Gwyn McVay, Inc. But who bought who? > > > That's "R. S. Gwynn-McVay" s'il vous plait. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Fri Jun 15 05:43:16 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 05:43:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] In this corner-- References: <113.5077f4.285aaf65@aol.com> Message-ID: <007901c0f57f$9ae00c00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Mill -- I think this is a great idea. Let us know how it works out. I've been a part of a writer's group that's met more or less weekly for 5 years, and it's been invaluable.Tough critiques, real support, and of course, the pressure to write. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 8:23 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] In this corner-- > Greetings Group: > > I thought I might "throw out" this idea to the masses. > > After nearly ten years of hibernation where the only fraternizing I do is at > poetry readings and AWP conferences. . .I decided to try a "grand > experiment." > > I've contacted (via e-mail and snail mail) a number of writers in my area > (Los Angeles, Santa Monica, Venice)--with the idea of maybe getting together. > I constructed a list from the latest and greatest Poets and Writers > Directory. > > Maybe drinks and some gossip. Maybe a monthly Writers Group. Not sure yet. > Never done anything like this before. Just wanted to connect with > like-minded folks. > > Any thoughts on Writers Groups? or Salons. Any good or bad experiences? > Advice? Suggestions? > > Cheers, > > Millicent > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards at prodigy.net Fri Jun 15 05:49:27 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 05:49:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] In this corner, form and rhyme... References: <20010615034001.4368236F9@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <009101c0f580$77d2da20$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert R.Cobb" To: Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 11:40 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] In this corner, form and rhyme... > Dear Gwyn, > > I am not sure into which corner I may have painted myself. As an artist, my work ranges from realistic to non-objective. As a poet, I have written poems tied to form as well as rhyme to free verse. I don't know if I am qualified to be merged, Gwyn. I only hope that it is not a hostile take-over. > > Robert Cobb > I wonder how many others on this list have the same eclecticism of composition? I'd be one of them -- from free verse to my forthcoming book-length poem in rhymed quatrains. And for those of us who do work both sides of the street, what goes into the decision? From yakub_beg at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 08:29:26 2001 From: yakub_beg at yahoo.com (K. Lorraine Graham) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 08:29:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] In this corner, form and rhyme... In-Reply-To: <009101c0f580$77d2da20$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: Why exclude any form (rhymed or otherwise)? Not that simple I think but knowing and understanding more traditional forms a poet has more poetic opportunity--write the form or deconstruct or reconstruct...and I confess to not having read much of any recent "formalist" poetry. Anyone want to recommend some? -Lorraine Graham www.yakub-beg.com _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Fri Jun 15 09:26:03 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 06:26:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] In this corner, form and rhyme... Message-ID: <20010615132603.9EDF836EF@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu Fri Jun 15 10:14:21 2001 From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Amber Prentiss) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:14:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] In this corner, form and rhyme... Message-ID: Whom should die. -Amber -----Original Message----- From: Robert R.Cobb To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 6/15/2001 9:26 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] In this corner, form and rhyme... Moira, ...bought whom, I think. To whom are you speaking? Bob Cobb (who feels neither bought nor sold, and certainly is not a buyer.) --- "Moira Russell" > wrote: > >> >Fine! We'll declare the merger: R.S. Gwyn McVay, Inc. But who bought who? > >Damn typos > >typoes? > >no, typos > >I think.... > >Moira Russell >Seattle, WA > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry == Poetry Catamaran "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" Robert R. Cobb AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. http://rrcobb.tripod.com _____________________________________________________________ ----- Check out my portfolio at www.talent.com _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JackKerouac25 at aol.com Fri Jun 15 10:25:44 2001 From: JackKerouac25 at aol.com (JackKerouac25 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 10:25:44 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] In this corner, form and rhyme... Message-ID: In a message dated 6/15/01 7:29:55 AM Central Daylight Time, yakub_beg at yahoo.com writes: > I confess to > not having read much of any recent "formalist" poetry. Anyone want to > recommend some? > > -Lorraine Graham > > www.yakub-beg.com > Hmmm....where to begin? I'd try out some of these: _Rebel Angels_, Mark Jarman & David Mason, ed. _Daily Horoscope_, Dana Gioia _Unholy Sonnets_, Mark Jarman These are just three of my favorites. Jeff Newberry Adjunct Instructor Department of English and Foreign Languages University of West Florida -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From moira_russell at hotmail.com Fri Jun 15 11:07:54 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 07:07:54 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] In this corner, form and rhyme... Message-ID: Bob, I didn't write who nor whom, that was Gyn. I was attempting to refer to Sam. >Whom should die. > >-Amber -----Original Message----- From: Robert R.Cobb To: >new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 6/15/2001 9:26 AM Subject: Re: >[New-Poetry] In this corner, form and rhyme... > >Moira, > >...bought whom, I think. To whom are you speaking? > >Bob Cobb (who feels neither bought nor sold, and certainly is not a buyer.) > >--- "Moira Russell" > wrote: > >> >Fine! We'll declare the merger: R.S. >Gwyn McVay, Inc. But who bought who? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Jun 15 11:13:48 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:13:48 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] In this corner, form and rhyme... Message-ID: In a message dated 6/15/2001 9:26:37 AM Central Daylight Time, JackKerouac25 at aol.com writes: > In a message dated 6/15/01 7:29:55 AM Central Daylight Time, > yakub_beg at yahoo.com writes: > > > >> I confess to >> not having read much of any recent "formalist" poetry. Anyone want to >> recommend some? >> >> -Lorraine Graham >> >> www.yakub-beg.com >> > > Hmmm....where to begin? I'd try out some of these: > > _Rebel Angels_, Mark Jarman & David Mason, ed. > > _Daily Horoscope_, Dana Gioia > > _Unholy Sonnets_, Mark Jarman > > These are just three of my favorites. > > Jeff Newberry > Adjunct Instructor > Department of English and Foreign Languages > University of West Florida > No Word of Farewell, by R. S. Gwynn. My personal favorite. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Jun 15 00:18:18 2001 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 23:18:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] In this corner, form and rhyme... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 6/15/01 7:29 AM, K. Lorraine Graham at yakub_beg at yahoo.com wrote: > Why exclude any form (rhymed or otherwise)? Not that simple I think but > knowing and understanding more traditional forms a poet has more poetic > opportunity--write the form or deconstruct or reconstruct...and I confess to > not having read much of any recent "formalist" poetry. Anyone want to > recommend some? > > -Lorraine Graham > > www.yakub-beg.com > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > One book of formal poetry you must look at is Sam Gwynn's new Selected Poems, No Word of Farewell, from Story Line. Three books I bought recently also contain some interesting work: Rachel Hadas' Halfway Down the Hall: New and Selected Poems; Robert B. Shaw's Below the Surface; and one by a poet utterly new to me that I heard at West Chester, Michael Donaghy's Dances Learned Last Night: Poems 1975-1995, from Picador. Paul Lake From yakub_beg at yahoo.com Fri Jun 15 11:32:49 2001 From: yakub_beg at yahoo.com (K. Lorraine Graham) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:32:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] In this corner, form and rhyme... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ta to all who offered recs -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu]On Behalf Of Paul Lake Sent: Friday, June 15, 2001 12:18 AM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] In this corner, form and rhyme... on 6/15/01 7:29 AM, K. Lorraine Graham at yakub_beg at yahoo.com wrote: > Why exclude any form (rhymed or otherwise)? Not that simple I think but > knowing and understanding more traditional forms a poet has more poetic > opportunity--write the form or deconstruct or reconstruct...and I confess to > not having read much of any recent "formalist" poetry. Anyone want to > recommend some? > > -Lorraine Graham > > www.yakub-beg.com > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > One book of formal poetry you must look at is Sam Gwynn's new Selected Poems, No Word of Farewell, from Story Line. Three books I bought recently also contain some interesting work: Rachel Hadas' Halfway Down the Hall: New and Selected Poems; Robert B. Shaw's Below the Surface; and one by a poet utterly new to me that I heard at West Chester, Michael Donaghy's Dances Learned Last Night: Poems 1975-1995, from Picador. Paul Lake _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From moira_russell at hotmail.com Fri Jun 15 11:32:58 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 07:32:58 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] In this corner, form and rhyme... Message-ID: > > I confess to > > not having read much of any recent "formalist" poetry. Anyone want to > > recommend some? Gladly. >_Rebel Angels_, Mark Jarman & David Mason, ed. >_Daily Horoscope_, Dana Gioia >_Unholy Sonnets_, Mark Jarman These are all good, especially Dana Gioia. Sam won't recommend his own book, probably, "No Word of Farewell," his selected poems, so I will; it's a slim book but packed with more meaningful poetry than most poets get out of multiple volumes. I bet Paul Lake won't push "Walking Backwards" either. That's also very very good. A.E. Stallings, "Archaic Smile," which I just bought, is very good. Molly Peacock and Marilyn Hacker are two fine modern formalist poets who often have a kind of slangy style and erm, controversial topics (shakes up the idea of formalist poetry as staid). Anthony Hecht has a new book out. Kelly Cherry is also good (nice sonnets). Thomas Disch is sharp as a tack technically and can be hilarious. Thom Gunn's poetry, often celebrating the beauty of boys and motorcycles, and later (especially in "The Man Who Had Night Sweats") dwelling on AIDS, is also great. Louise Bogan is a really overlooked wonderful lyric poet. Elizabeth Bishop is always good, although you have to sort of sit still and really listen to her poems; they don't hit you over the head, but they seem to really look into the center of things with a really deep vision. If you want to invest a big chunk of money in a beautifully designed book which is like a treasure chest -- any time you dip into it you come up with a jewel -- the "Collected Poems of James Merrill" just came out. Theodore Roethke is sort of a sentimental favorite although he can be terribly imitative of Thomas and Hopkins and Yeats (oh my). Those are a few of my favorites snatched out of the air -- I would say you could pick up any book by any one of them and find it worth reading. Lately I've been rereading Yeats, Hopkins, Hardy, the poetry I tend to circle around like a cat and come back and back to. I used to be madly in love with Dylan Thomas (what young poet isn't) but not so much anymore. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Fri Jun 15 11:41:11 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 08:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] In this corner, form and rhyme... Message-ID: <20010615154111.7246E3ECC@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Jun 15 11:41:44 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:41:44 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] In this corner, form and rhyme... Message-ID: <3c.d1dc45a.285b86b8@cs.com> In a message dated 6/15/2001 10:34:04 AM Central Daylight Time, moira_russell at hotmail.com writes: > Sam won't recommend his own > book, probably, "No Word of Farewell," his selected poems, so I will; it's > a slim book but packed with more meaningful poetry than most poets get out > of multiple volumes. If Moira had gone to West Chester and met me, she would know the inaccuracy of her first clause here. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Fri Jun 15 11:50:22 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 08:50:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] In this corner, form and rhyme... Message-ID: <20010615155022.4CB2E36F9@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From moira_russell at hotmail.com Fri Jun 15 11:50:57 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 07:50:57 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] In this corner, form and rhyme... Message-ID: R.S. GwynN wrote: >If Moira had gone to West Chester and met me, she would know the inaccuracy >of her first clause here. Ahhh, missed opportunities....I shall be there next year. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Fri Jun 15 12:23:00 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 09:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] In this corner, form and rhyme... Message-ID: <20010615162300.5046E274E@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 15 15:12:27 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R. Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 15:12:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Poetics of History: Footnote 1: Four Favorite Formailst Poets References: Message-ID: <3B2A5E1B.797D@ix.netcom.com> Four of my favorite formalist poets are: James Jesus Angleton, editor of Furioso magazine and former Director of Internal Security at the CIA. Robert Conquest, who began as a poet, but went on to author such works as The Great Terror, which deals with the Stalin purges. Whittaker Chambers of Alger Hiss fame. Warren McCulloch who along with Walter Pitts identified neural nets which in turn have helped advance the study of A.I. One of McCulloch's untitled works goes: Wisdom is in his grave; Let him lie! He was a dreary knave, Cold and dry. You were his droning slave? So was I! Wisdom is in the grave! Let him Lie. This our cry: We were too bold and brave, Ready to starve and stave, Live and Die! Wisdom is in his grave? Pass him by. Paul Lake wrote: > > on 6/15/01 7:29 AM, K. Lorraine Graham at yakub_beg at yahoo.com wrote: > > > Why exclude any form (rhymed or otherwise)? Not that simple I think but > > knowing and understanding more traditional forms a poet has more poetic > > opportunity--write the form or deconstruct or reconstruct...and I confess to > > not having read much of any recent "formalist" poetry. Anyone want to > > recommend some? > > > > -Lorraine Graham > > > > www.yakub-beg.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > One book of formal poetry you must look at is Sam Gwynn's new Selected > Poems, No Word of Farewell, from Story Line. Three books I bought recently > also contain some interesting work: Rachel Hadas' Halfway Down the Hall: New > and Selected Poems; Robert B. Shaw's Below the Surface; and one by a poet > utterly new to me that I heard at West Chester, Michael Donaghy's Dances > Learned Last Night: Poems 1975-1995, from Picador. > > Paul Lake > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Jun 15 04:19:04 2001 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 03:19:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Poetics of History: Footnote 1: Four Favorite Formailst Poets In-Reply-To: <3B2A5E1B.797D@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: on 6/15/01 2:12 PM, R. Gancie/C.Parcelli at alphavil at ix.netcom.com wrote: > Robert Conquest, who began as a poet, but went on to author such works > as The Great Terror, which deals with the Stalin purges. Robert Conquest is still writing poetry. He's got a new one in the last issue of The Formalist. Paul Lake From moira_russell at hotmail.com Fri Jun 15 15:42:12 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:42:12 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Poetics of History: Footnote 1: Four Favorite Formailst Poets Message-ID: Nice interview: http://www.booknotes.org/transcripts/50546.htm "I don't mind writing poetry, because at least it's short." >Robert Conquest is still writing poetry. He's got a new one in the last >issue of The Formalist. >Paul Lake _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 15 16:07:27 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R. Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 16:07:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Poetics of History: Footnote 1: Four Favorite Formailst Poets References: Message-ID: <3B2A6AFF.4888@ix.netcom.com> Ideogrammic with The Poetics of History III: Edward Bernays and his book Propaganda 1928. Moira Russell wrote: > > Nice interview: > > http://www.booknotes.org/transcripts/50546.htm > > "I don't mind writing poetry, because at least it's short." > > >Robert Conquest is still writing poetry. He's got a new one in the last > >issue of The Formalist. > >Paul Lake > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Fri Jun 15 16:52:09 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R. Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 16:52:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetics of History X: "Lab Mice" References: <3B2A6AFF.4888@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3B2A7579.570@ix.netcom.com> Certainly when Bernays was penning "The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses", he had Robert Conquest in mind, of course not literally but in spirit. And, of course, the "masses" he was referring to were not Soviet though they certainly could have been in a very generalized way. One individual he did consider an elite who, also, was an important element in the manipulation of "democratic" thought and society was the 'discoverer' of Scientific Managemant and Time-Motion Studies, Frederick Winslow Taylor. Taylor, as well as Bernays dovetail nicely as poetic ideograms with my reference to the Invasion of Southeast Asia. In fact Gibson in "The Perfect War: Technowar in Vietnam" early in the work cites Taylor as a fundamental influence on operations research and systems analysis methods used by MACV in Vietnam with its accelerated quantifiable technoloigical dehumanization. Taylor's magnum opus is called The Principles of Scientific Management. On page 45 he relates his approach toward a day laborer: The task before us, then, narrowed itself down to getting Schmidt to handle 47 tons of pig iron per day and making him glad to do it. This was done as follows. Schmidt was called out from among the gang of Pig-iron handlers and talked to somewhat in this way: "Schmidt, are you a high-priced man?" "Vell, I don't know vat you mean." "Oh yes, you do. What I want to know is whether you are a high-priced man or not." "Vell, I don't know vat you mean." "Oh, come now, you answer my questions. What I want to find out is whether you are a high-priced man or one of these cheap fellows here. What I want to find out is whether you want to earn $1.85 a day or whether you are satisfied with $1.15, just the same as all those cheap fellows are getting." "Did I vant $1.85 a day? Vas dot a high-priced man? Vell, yes, I vas a high-priced man." [You get the picture here. After more coersion, Taylor explains the conditons under which Schmidt will become a "high-priced man."] "Well, if you are a high-priced man, you will do exactly as this man [Scientific Management trained foreman] tells you tomorrow, from morning till ight. When he tells you to pick up the pig[iron] and walk, you pick it up and you walk, and when he tells you to sit down and rest, you sit down. You do it straight through the day. And what's more no back talk...[etc]" Of course, there never was a "Schmidt" as Taylor relates him here. Its a caricature of the ideal ignorant laborer---the "lab mouse" of Taylor's engineering dreams. Any number of times, workers on the shop floors threatened to kill Taylor until things beacme so dire the U.S. Congress intervened. The technological advances which probably saved Taylor's life, we now know only routinized generally less physical jobs for American workers, and accelerated the need for an Americam Empire so that the physical work could be done abroad where possible, and where a "high-priced man" was very lucky to get the original $1.15 for his labor. From jdavis at panix.com Fri Jun 15 17:10:53 2001 From: jdavis at panix.com (Jordan Davis) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 17:10:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetics of History X: "Lab Mice" In-Reply-To: <3B2A7579.570@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: It's a shame I feel such a knee-jerk need to recycle -- the Financial Times did a very lovely story on the Capitalist/Communist race to fabricate the ideal worker -- it underscored the moment when Lenin throws himself completely over to Taylorism... if it weren't for that blue bin I'd be typing in salient excerpts -- if only for the critical value of the prose. Dana Gioia for Secretary of Education, Jordan From gmcvay at patriot.net Fri Jun 15 18:54:35 2001 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 18:54:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] In this corner, form and rhyme... In-Reply-To: <009101c0f580$77d2da20$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: >>>And for those of us who do work both sides of the street, what goes into the decision?<<< Sometimes, frustration. "What the fuck, I'll write a goddamn sonnet." (or sestina, etc.) The odd thing is this can produce a really decent poem. McVay, a wholly owned subsidiary From JforJames at aol.com Sat Jun 16 12:14:27 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 12:14:27 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] In this corner, form and rhyme... Message-ID: In a message dated 6/15/01 11:28:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: << recent "formalist" poetry. Anyone want to > recommend some? >> Don't think this one has been mentioned: A FORMAL FEELING COMES: POEMS IN FORM BY CONTEMPORARY WOMEN, ed. Annie Finch Story Line Press, '94 Finnegan From JforJames at aol.com Sat Jun 16 18:30:50 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 18:30:50 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia poem Message-ID: <109.15e9029.285d381a@aol.com> A friend sent me copy of this poem by Dana Gioia. I'm not sure in what journal he encountered it... After A Line By Cavafy --for the poet John Finlay, dead of AIDS Return and take me, distant afternoon, Return and take hold of me When the blue lake is dry white stone, And the earth reclaims its arch of green. Remember and repeat some confidence we shared, Drunk with the promise of our new acquaintance, Walking on the shore arguing ideas As only the young can argue-- Passionate, naive, and nervous with excitement, Like hands touching for the first time-- We who were neither lovers nor intimates And never met again. --- I first ran into Finlay's poems in copy of a litmag featuring his work, posthumously. I tried to order a copy of the magazine to read the poetry and the various essays about his work more closely, but it was never sent to me. From what I remember the poetry was dense and tightly wrought, almost knotted, formal work. Finnegan From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Jun 16 19:53:55 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 19:53:55 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia poem Message-ID: In a message dated 6/16/2001 5:32:50 PM Central Daylight Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > I first ran into Finlay's poems in copy of a litmag featuring his work, > posthumously. I tried to order a copy of the magazine to read the > poetry and the various essays about his work more closely, but it was > never sent to me. From what I remember the poetry was dense and > tightly wrought, almost knotted, formal work. > Finnegan > Finlay was a Wintersian, out of Donald Stanford's classes at LSU. His work has been collected in several forms by David Middleton of Nicholls State U. in Louisiana. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sun Jun 17 12:37:15 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 12:37:15 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Rhizomes #2 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 18:01:35 -0700 From: Frank Parker Subject: Rhizomes, issue #2, newly up Rhizomes, issue #2, newly up at http://www.rhizomes.net Table of Contents Romantic Ecologies: On John Kinsella Louis Armand Wages of Compassion T.R. Bell The Role of The Humanities in Global Culture: Questions and Hypotheses Mikhail Epstein A Nomadic Austen: Imagining Radical Malleability in Persuasion Michael Kramp Poems Alan Sondheim Poems: Letters Gary Sullivan Come Shining Photographs by Deborah Luster Essay by C.D. Wright Introduction by Bruce Lineker *************** Frank Parker franks at now.at http://now.at/frankshome I believe I heard language through my mother's belly both violent and sweet and wanted to get to it - Robin Blaser From TerryP17 at aol.com Mon Jun 18 09:19:25 2001 From: TerryP17 at aol.com (TerryP17 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 09:19:25 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetics of History X: "Lab Rats" Message-ID: <108.160c6cb.285f59dd@aol.com> From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Mon Jun 18 09:26:43 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 06:26:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetics of History X: "Lab Rats" Message-ID: <20010618132643.3DB602751@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From TerryP17 at aol.com Mon Jun 18 09:33:20 2001 From: TerryP17 at aol.com (TerryP17 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 09:33:20 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetics of History part Endless: "Lab Rats" Message-ID: <27.170a3360.285f5d20@aol.com> Still waiting to see the sonnet on Stalin's glorious treatment of Soviet worker-heroes and mother-heroines of the people. While we're all waiting, I suggest perusing the following interesting volume: Theremin: Ether Music and Espionage, by Albert Glinsky with a foreword by Robert Moog. Urbana and Chicago, IL: University of Illinois Press, 2000. 403 pp. $34.95. Yep, Theremin is the guy who invented the weird, wailing instrument you hear in "The Day the Earth Stood Still" and in the Beach Boys' "Good Vibrations." He was also a loyal Commie and spy who spent several years among the cognoscenti in NYC in the 1920s, and as a reward for his efforts, this "worker" was nearly exterminated in Stalin's Siberian slave deathcamps. Hey, now that's a way to really economize on wages, eh? Surprised we never thought of that. Ah, but I forgot, Capitalists are always the bad guys. Gotta love the dialectic. Terry Ponick From tadrichards at prodigy.net Mon Jun 18 09:30:35 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (OTIS RICHARDS) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 09:30:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetics of History X: "Lab Rats" References: <108.160c6cb.285f59dd@aol.com> Message-ID: <001801c0f7fa$deba2640$6401a8c0@ibm25310> Zen and the poetics of history? Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 9:19 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetics of History X: "Lab Rats" > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 18 10:54:19 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R. Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 10:54:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetics of History part Endless: "Lab Rats" References: <27.170a3360.285f5d20@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B2E161B.3726@ix.netcom.com> Would this sonnet somehow justify or even ameliorate the actions of those so far cited in my posts and my poems? Tale of the Tribe has nothing to do with the Cold War, yet you have inevtably and belatedly taken your comments there because that is somehow your only point of reference (Again, see Bernays). If at all summarizable, Tale of the Tribe is a poem tracing the historical ramifications of the quantification/mathematization of western culture and consequential attempt to conform world cultures to this paradigm. The main focusses are the sciences and its attendant technologies, and, further, the way they have structured our modes of thinking even unto our social domestic structures. If you knew the sources I am citing you would see that THEY saw themselves, first and foremost as scientists, that is 'neutral' and scientifically 'objective.' (See F.H Hayek on Economics for counter view). This is even true of people like Ed Lansdale. Further, in my reading I continually find statements of the superiority of Western and American science and technology. I simply take them at their word because I want to confront and analyze the best. And lastly, I live, as I believe you do, right outside Washington DC, which last time I looked was in the U.S., so it is the rapine and murder done in my name that I most concern myself with. I've surfed the web and found many sites with peoples poems on display. The number of patriotic poems are enormous, second only to those dealing with love. There is plenty of soothing conformity out there for you if you just seek it. CP TerryP17 at aol.com wrote: > > Still waiting to see the sonnet on Stalin's glorious treatment of Soviet worker-heroes and mother-heroines of the people. While we're all waiting, I suggest perusing the following interesting volume: > > Theremin: Ether Music and Espionage, by Albert Glinsky with a foreword by Robert Moog. Urbana and Chicago, IL: University of Illinois Press, 2000. 403 pp. $34.95. > > Yep, Theremin is the guy who invented the weird, wailing instrument you hear in "The Day the Earth Stood Still" and in the Beach Boys' "Good Vibrations." He was also a loyal Commie and spy who spent several years among the cognoscenti in NYC in the 1920s, and as a reward for his efforts, this "worker" was nearly exterminated in Stalin's Siberian slave deathcamps. Hey, now that's a way to really economize on wages, eh? Surprised we never thought of that. Ah, but I forgot, Capitalists are always t > > Terry Ponick > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames at aol.com Mon Jun 18 14:48:03 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 14:48:03 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Well Put Message-ID: <12b.383982.285fa6e3@aol.com> Can a biography be poetic? Only if the anecdotes are transmuted into poems, that is, only if the deeds and the dates cease to be history and become exemplary. But exemplary not in the didactic sense of the term but in the sense of "notable action," as when we say: unique example. Or: myth, ideal argument and real fable. The poets help themselves to legends in order to tell us real things; and with real events they create fables, examples. The dangers of poetic biography are twofold: the unsolicited confession and the unasked counsel. --by Octavio Paz (tranlated by Michael Schmidt) from the introductory essay to the Selected Poems of Luis Cernuda From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Mon Jun 18 11:33:34 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R. Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 11:33:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetics of History part Endless: "Lab Rats" References: <27.170a3360.285f5d20@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B2E1F4E.6F5B@ix.netcom.com> Also, more to the point, supplement Bernays, with comments made by Robert Lovett, Madison Ave. ad man, Executive at Brown Bros. (yes same Brown Bros. Smedley Butler named in Congressional testimony (ideogram?)) when Lovett was in Eisenhower admin. to the effect of "selling" the Cold war to the American public. Lovett was a first rate salesman, but just one among many. (Again, see Bernays.) CP TerryP17 at aol.com wrote: > > Still waiting to see the sonnet on Stalin's glorious treatment of Soviet worker-heroes and mother-heroines of the people. While we're all waiting, I suggest perusing the following interesting volume: > > Theremin: Ether Music and Espionage, by Albert Glinsky with a foreword by Robert Moog. Urbana and Chicago, IL: University of Illinois Press, 2000. 403 pp. $34.95. > > Yep, Theremin is the guy who invented the weird, wailing instrument you hear in "The Day the Earth Stood Still" and in the Beach Boys' "Good Vibrations." He was also a loyal Commie and spy who spent several years among the cognoscenti in NYC in the 1920s, and as a reward for his efforts, this "worker" was nearly exterminated in Stalin's Siberian slave deathcamps. Hey, now that's a way to really economize on wages, eh? Surprised we never thought of that. Ah, but I forgot, Capitalists are always t > > Terry Ponick > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Jun 18 18:58:54 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 18:58:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] teaching people not to like rhyme. References: <200106121543.f5CFhDi95998@mx1.mx.voyager.net> <00e101c0f381$4dc10500$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <3B2E87AE.2B49@nut-n-but.net> Hey, Mole, just because I think there is value in other poetic devices BESIDES rhyme and meter doesn't mean I'd teach people not to like them. I like them. I've used them. Nor am I too concerned about being influential with the young or anybody else--I just want to be taken more seriously than I so far have been (although that's very much secondary to my wanting to compose good poetry). It is true, though, that if I were teaching poetry, I would discuss the bad as well as the good of rhyme and meter-- and give examples of other devices I consider as effective, and more interesting since not yet fully explored (like, gasp, the use of mathematics in poetry). --Bob G. From tadrichards at prodigy.net Tue Jun 19 00:03:29 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (OTIS RICHARDS) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 00:03:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetics of History part Endless: "Lab Rats" References: <27.170a3360.285f5d20@aol.com> Message-ID: <000701c0f874$cdaaee00$6401a8c0@ibm25310> The only thing I know about Theremim's life is from the documentary movie of the same name. They didn't mention anything about his being a Commie spy - just said he was kidnapped by the NKVD. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 9:33 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetics of History part Endless: "Lab Rats" > Still waiting to see the sonnet on Stalin's glorious treatment of Soviet worker-heroes and mother-heroines of the people. While we're all waiting, I suggest perusing the following interesting volume: > > Theremin: Ether Music and Espionage, by Albert Glinsky with a foreword by Robert Moog. Urbana and Chicago, IL: University of Illinois Press, 2000. 403 pp. $34.95. > > Yep, Theremin is the guy who invented the weird, wailing instrument you hear in "The Day the Earth Stood Still" and in the Beach Boys' "Good Vibrations." He was also a loyal Commie and spy who spent several years among the cognoscenti in NYC in the 1920s, and as a reward for his efforts, this "worker" was nearly exterminated in Stalin's Siberian slave deathcamps. Hey, now that's a way to really economize on wages, eh? Surprised we never thought of that. Ah, but I forgot, Capitalists are always the bad guys. Gotta love the dialectic. > > Terry Ponick > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards at prodigy.net Tue Jun 19 02:29:28 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (OTIS RICHARDS) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 02:29:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] teaching people not to like rhyme. References: <200106121543.f5CFhDi95998@mx1.mx.voyager.net> <00e101c0f381$4dc10500$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> <3B2E87AE.2B49@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <005f01c0f889$373b1200$6401a8c0@ibm25310> Bob - you've made that clear in the past. My point was that in order to seriously put forth the idea that there are insidious forces of anti-formalism out there trying to teach people to hate form, you have to create some fairly absurd straw men. My point was that it's silly to suggest that minimalists, or language poets, are (a) out there trying to teach people to hate form, or (b) are so incredibibly influential over young and impressionable minds that they could do it if they wanted to. Why do I always seem to end up being credited with attacking people I think I'm defending. I must be an even badder person than I give myself credit for being. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 6:58 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] teaching people not to like rhyme. > Hey, Mole, just because I think there is value in other > poetic devices BESIDES rhyme and meter doesn't mean I'd > teach people not to like them. I like them. I've used > them. Nor am I too concerned about being influential with > the young or anybody else--I just want to be taken more > seriously than I so far have been (although that's very > much secondary to my wanting to compose good poetry). It is > true, though, that if I were teaching poetry, I would > discuss the bad as well as the good of rhyme and meter-- > and give examples of other devices I consider as effective, > and more interesting since not yet fully explored (like, > gasp, the use of mathematics in poetry). > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Jun 19 07:21:36 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 07:21:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] teaching people not to like rhyme. References: <200106121543.f5CFhDi95998@mx1.mx.voyager.net> <00e101c0f381$4dc10500$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> <3B2E87AE.2B49@nut-n-but.net> <005f01c0f889$373b1200$6401a8c0@ibm25310> Message-ID: <3B2F35C0.6A1A@nut-n-but.net> OTIS RICHARDS wrote: > > Bob - you've made that clear in the past. My point was that in order to > seriously put forth the idea that there are insidious forces of > anti-formalism out there trying to teach people to hate form, you have to > create some fairly absurd straw men. My point was that it's silly to suggest > that minimalists, or language poets, are (a) out there trying to teach > people to hate form, or (b) are so incredibibly influential over young and > impressionable minds that they could do it if they wanted to. > > Why do I always seem to end up being credited with attacking people I think > I'm defending. I must be an even badder person than I give myself credit for > being. I wasn't sure whether you were attacking or defending me, Tad, but you did say something about my not being as influential with the young as I'd like to be. Anyway, I had to make sure my position was clear, however often I've stated it (since there are those who do get it much wronger than you may have). As for anti-formalists, I do think there are some out there inveighing against form, etc., but I agree with you that they aren't influential, and that it's bad teaching (with some blame going to use of dead examples in teaching) that's more at fault. --Bob G. From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Jun 19 07:50:34 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 07:50:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Atlantic Center for the Arts References: Message-ID: <3B2F3C8A.7F37@nut-n-but.net> http://www.atlanticcenterforthearts.org I've just finished a residency at the Atlantic Center for the Arts that I enjoyed so much I thought I should tell this list about it, and encourage people on it to apply for similar residencies. Go to the above URL to get details. My residency was under Richard Kostelanetz. I had to pay to get to the place, but room, board, and the use of all kinds of terrific computer hardware and software, and studio space, was free (except for a $20 application fee). The residency was for three weeks. Fellow associates, as we were called, included Kathy Ernst, Scott Helmes and John M. Bennett, friends of mine (as is Richard). I'd personally met both John and Richard before but not Kathy and Scott, so doing the latter was a big plus, as was meeting the four younger associates in our group-- and the associates in the only other group at ACA with us, and their "master-artist"/group-leader, A-1 painter Kerry James Marshall. It was probably the best inter-personal arts experience I've ever had, for I learned a lot about using computers for doing colored visual poetry--and making movies! I picked up a bunch of ideas from the work and talk of the others, and from collaborations. (I got to make three new mathemaku with John, for instance--one of which I like close to as much as the best I've done entirely by myself.) I made ten new (single-authored) mathemaku--thus equalling my entire output as a poet in all forms for the past three YEARS! Of course, most of the new works were based on sketches I'd brought with me. Still . . . Very nice Florida wildernessy place, too--with a particularly good beach for swimmers and sun-bathers nearby. The center has no advertising budget, so if anyone has any ideas as to how to give it free advertising, please let Rachel Ward at the above URL know. Rachel is also looking for master-artist recommendations. Master-artists get a stipend and lots else. --Bob G. From wasanthony at yahoo.com Tue Jun 19 08:43:44 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 05:43:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] teaching people not to like rhyme. In-Reply-To: <3B2F35C0.6A1A@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <20010619124344.99535.qmail@web12102.mail.yahoo.com> Mea culpa. It's not Bob or anyone else spreading anti-formalist doctrine: It's me! A kind of Johnny Appleseed going from school to school with my anti-formalist pills. First it was Iowa, where they didn't need much convincing. Then it was Vermont, where the response was: "Oh, so that's what Frost was doing!" Then Washington, where I got: "Oh, so if I take all those sounds out of the middle of Roethke's lines and put 'em at the end, and break the long soliloquies into equal portions, it would be formal? Like NOT torching the union?" Then Arizona, where they thought a sestina was a way to describe Tina Turner taking a siesta. Then California, where they read Auden and said, "This guy's gotta chill out." Then back to Arizona and a no-brainer: "Oh, the fence guy. We're mostly free-range out here." So I gave 'em some Jim Carroll and they whipped out their guitars. No, don't blame Bob Grumman. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. http://buzz.yahoo.com/ From tadrichards at prodigy.net Tue Jun 19 09:05:07 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (OTIS RICHARDS) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 09:05:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] teaching people not to like rhyme. References: <20010619124344.99535.qmail@web12102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <009d01c0f8c0$77e85ce0$6401a8c0@ibm25310> Jim - was it all worth it? Have you taught a new generation to hate rhyme and meter? Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "jcervantes" To: Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 8:43 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] teaching people not to like rhyme. > Mea culpa. It's not Bob or anyone else spreading anti-formalist > doctrine: It's me! A kind of Johnny Appleseed going from school to > school with my anti-formalist pills. First it was Iowa, where they > didn't need much convincing. Then it was Vermont, where the response > was: "Oh, so that's what Frost was doing!" Then Washington, where I > got: "Oh, so if I take all those sounds out of the middle of Roethke's > lines and put 'em at the end, and break the long soliloquies into equal > portions, it would be formal? Like NOT torching the union?" Then > Arizona, where they thought a sestina was a way to describe Tina Turner > taking a siesta. Then California, where they read Auden and said, > "This guy's gotta chill out." Then back to Arizona and a no-brainer: > "Oh, the fence guy. We're mostly free-range out here." So I gave 'em > some Jim Carroll and they whipped out their guitars. No, don't blame > Bob Grumman. > > - Jim > > > > > > > ===== > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net > Salt River Review: > "Ripples" @ > Poetserv: > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Spot the hottest trends in music, movies, and more. > http://buzz.yahoo.com/ > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JackKerouac25 at aol.com Tue Jun 19 09:35:45 2001 From: JackKerouac25 at aol.com (JackKerouac25 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 09:35:45 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] My First Thought Was . . . Message-ID: <72.bdc0518.2860af31@aol.com> Poetry People: There's a poem out there somewhere by somebody that begins, "My first thought was, he lied with every word." I think these lines belong to a poem--do they? If so, what poem? Dammit! I'm driving myself up the wall trying to remember where this comes from. Blame R.S. Gwynn. I was reading his _No Word of Farewell_ last night, and he has a poem in there that plays off this line. Help! Jeff N. Jeff Newberry Adjunct Instructor Department of English and Foreign Languages University of West Florida From tadrichards at prodigy.net Tue Jun 19 09:44:52 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (OTIS RICHARDS) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 09:44:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] My First Thought Was . . . References: <72.bdc0518.2860af31@aol.com> Message-ID: <00a301c0f8c6$053bebc0$6401a8c0@ibm25310> Childe Roland to the Dark Tower came, by Robert Browning Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2001 9:35 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] My First Thought Was . . . > Poetry People: > > There's a poem out there somewhere by somebody that begins, "My first thought was, he lied with every word." I think these lines belong to a poem--do they? If so, what poem? Dammit! I'm driving myself up the wall trying to remember where this comes from. Blame R.S. Gwynn. I was reading his _No Word of Farewell_ last night, and he has a poem in there that plays off this line. > > Help! > > Jeff N. > > > Jeff Newberry > Adjunct Instructor > Department of English and Foreign Languages > University of West Florida > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Tue Jun 19 10:49:15 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 09:49:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] My First Thought Was . . . In-Reply-To: <72.bdc0518.2860af31@aol.com> Message-ID: Childe Roland To The Dark Tower Came --Robert Browning I. My first thought was, he lied in every word, That hoary cripple, with malicious eye Askance to watch the working of his lie On mine, and mouth scarce able to afford Suppression of the glee, that pursed and scored Its edge, at one more victim gained thereby. _____________________ David Graham >Poetry People: > >There's a poem out there somewhere by somebody that begins, "My first >thought was, he lied with every word." I think these lines belong to a >poem--do they? If so, what poem? Dammit! I'm driving myself up the wall >trying to remember where this comes from. Blame R.S. Gwynn. I was >reading his _No Word of Farewell_ last night, and he has a poem in there >that plays off this line. > >Help! > >Jeff N. > > >Jeff Newberry >Adjunct Instructor >Department of English and Foreign Languages >University of West Florida >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Jun 19 11:11:18 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 11:11:18 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] My First Thought Was . . . Message-ID: <117.834581.2860c596@cs.com> In a message dated 6/19/01 8:36:35 AM Central Daylight Time, JackKerouac25 at aol.com writes: > Poetry People: > > There's a poem out there somewhere by somebody that begins, "My first > thought was, he lied with every word." I think these lines belong to a > poem--do they? If so, what poem? Dammit! I'm driving myself up the wall > trying to remember where this comes from. Blame R.S. Gwynn. I was reading > his _No Word of Farewell_ last night, and he has a poem in there that plays > off this line. > > Help! > > Jeff N. > > > Jeff Newberry > Adjunct Instructor > Department of English and Foreign Languages > University of West Florida > Go to the horse's other end for the answer: it's Browning's "Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Tue Jun 19 11:31:13 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 10:31:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: teaching people not to like rhyme. In-Reply-To: <005f01c0f889$373b1200$6401a8c0@ibm25310> References: <200106121543.f5CFhDi95998@mx1.mx.voyager.net> <00e101c0f381$4dc10500$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> <3B2E87AE.2B49@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Since I posted the Gioia quote in the first place about people having to be taught to dislike rhyme (duly noting its sound-bite hyperbole, by the way) maybe I should offer some amends. If I may be so bold as to speak for Dana Gioia, I think what he probably meant was simply that rhyming is a natural human pleasure. I hope that assertion isn't controversial, but I suppose I could bring in Mother Goose to back me up on this, not to mention hopscotch, top 40, "thirty days hath september," and hip hop. . . . So if you don't like rhyme (and surely I'm not alone in knowing poets who turn up their noses as conventional end rhyme) then somewhere, somehow a normal poetic resource has been, well, educated out of you. I don't see a conspiracy here (though Jim Cervantes's confession did have me rolling), but I do see in *much* American poetry since about 1914 a tendency to downplay or discard some conventional features of poetry that in my view still have a great deal of life in them. Same is true, I would say, for story--good old conventional unproblematized narrative. We may not find much of it in certain poetry journals these days, but the human hunger for story will not be suppressed, and it shows up elsewhere in the culture. Are these fair conclusions? Controversial? David Graham, secret rhymer ________________ >Bob - you've made that clear in the past. My point was that in order to >seriously put forth the idea that there are insidious forces of >anti-formalism out there trying to teach people to hate form, you have to >create some fairly absurd straw men. My point was that it's silly to suggest >that minimalists, or language poets, are (a) out there trying to teach >people to hate form, or (b) are so incredibibly influential over young and >impressionable minds that they could do it if they wanted to. > >Why do I always seem to end up being credited with attacking people I think >I'm defending. I must be an even badder person than I give myself credit for >being. > __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From TerryP17 at aol.com Tue Jun 19 12:13:09 2001 From: TerryP17 at aol.com (TerryP17 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 12:13:09 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Theremin and the Lab Rats Message-ID: <11a.7905ee.2860d415@aol.com> Tad-- You wrote: <> Sorry about the "Zen" of my initial blank email, guys. The web version of AOL sometimes leaps before I'm ready. Glad you mentioned the movie, Tad. It was about the last thing Theremin was involved with in his long, interesting life. After the filming of the American segments of this flick, he returned to his pathetic little apartment in Russia (he was about 94 at the time) and found it ransacked with all his experimental devices destroyed. A last little gift, I guess, of the KGB or what was left of it. Very sad, really. This guy was a "true believer" and they constantly screwed him. He was indeed "kidnapped" by the NKVD circa '33, because he'd outlived his usefulness in NYC and needed to return to the People's Paradise for rehab. This was just before the Popular Front was launched in the U.S., when the CPUSA "went underground" where it is today, waiting for the Revolution, something our friend elsewhere on the board--who always ignores the substance of what I say before returning to his usual didacticism--never bothers to discuss. Theremin didn't figure into these plans and by that time was too public a figure. And too controversial. He'd married a black American dancer, and that, according to the author of the book, caused many of his "artsy" patrons to start avoiding him. Meanwhile, Stalin's gulags nearly did Theremin in until Hitler launched his attack and Stalin realized he'd killed nearly everyone in the Soviet Union with brains. So his goons brought Theremin back to Moscow and he helped in the war effort engineering substantial improvements to aging Soviet armaments. He later designed a nifty little wireless transmitter for spying. They placed it in the eagle's beak of a sculpture of the US Seal they presented as a gift to the American Ambassador in Moscow in the late 1940s. It was hung in an embassy meeting room, and successfully eavesdropped on everything for years. Years later, when Francis Gary Powers was shot down and Khruschev did his little shoe pounding thing at the UN (late 1950s), the American ambassador to the UN displayed the device publicly at the UN--our guys had finally discovered it a few years before--as proof the Rushkies were pretty good at spying themselves. Another little glimpse of fame for Theremin. The filmmakers, of course, weren't interested in highlighting Theremin's Communist credentials as that might've made him a little less of a sympathetic hero. Further, Theremin's KGB files--to which the author of the book gained access--were pretty much unavailable at the time the film was made. Actually, I think the whole thing is a damn interesting story--a fascinating marriage of radical politics, music, and engineering, all wrapped up in one pretty multifaceted guy. All art is not necessarily political--but some of it sure is. --Terry From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Tue Jun 19 16:13:35 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 15:13:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Auld Lang Syne/CAP-L Message-ID: Feeling nostalgic today, I thought some might be interested to know that a partial archives of the old CAP-L discussion list is available: http://homepages.packet.net/schaeff/capl/welcome.html This is from something called "Dissociated Press." Found out about it on the valuable About.com/poetry site: http://poetry.miningco.com/arts/poetry/mbody.htm They also have a link to the New-Poetry site, incidentally, which is how I stumbled upon the CAP-L archives. About.com is well worth surfing around in, by the way. David Graham ___________________ __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jun 20 10:12:39 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 10:12:39 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Twice Removed by Ralph Angel, with sample poem Message-ID: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Sarabande Books Announces the October 2001 Publication of Twice Removed, Poems by Ralph Angel Just as Richard Diebenkorn defined Los Angeles for me in his paintings, so too has Ralph Angel defined that city in his remarkable poetry. And I am amazed by the timeless and universal quality of his work. He brings something ancient and compellingfrom Andalusia through Rhodes and Constantinople, through the Pacific Northwestthat we recognize as a kind of rare Sephardic wisdom, a brilliance traveling at the speed of Los Angeles light. He is one of Americas very best poets. A true visionary. Tomaz Salamun Poems, said Robert Lowell, should be events, not records of events. The poems of Twice Removed are events, set in the bright between, that place between short days and long shadows, between past and future, between the inviolate self and the public person. Ralph Angels poems see, and then reveal, Joycean layers of historythe past showing through the present, a host of bustling echoes set in motion by the vanished lives of others, and by the poets own previous selves. Among the very dawn of us, Angel sings, a single shrug of heart unleashes waves of / birds and voices from the plaza. Angels poems are haunted by a sort of collective esprit de lescalieran anguish that things we left undone and unsaid go on resonating: A bride and groom stand shivering on a tarmac / in the mist, and / they are happy. Each one // and all of us entangled. Angel writes the arias of our subtext, provoking in the reader the recognition of longings just beyond reach of articulation. And though his poems are addressed to complexity, the language is not obscure: Angels intense, visionary lyricism arrives in a seamless weave of elegance and streetwise savvy, the cadences somehow hypnotic and urgent at once. This is a poet with the audacity to push the very limits of the American idiom in order to say things that could not previously be said, using sounds not previously heard. Ralph Angel stands as an American original, and Twice Removed is a book that will expand his already large and passionate audience of readers. Ralph Angel is the author of two collections of poetry: Neither World (Miami University Press), which received the 1995 James Laughlin Award of The Academy of American Poets, and Anxious Latitudes, which was published in the Wesleyan University Press New Poets Series. His poems have appeared in The New Yorker, Poetry, The Antioch Review, The American Poetry Review, and many other magazines. His work has been collected in numerous anthologies, including The Best American Poetry, New American Poets of the '90s, and Forgotten Language: Contemporary Poets and Nature. His most recent honors include a Pushcart Prize and awards from the Fulbright Foundation, Poetry magazine, and the Fundacion Valparaiso in Spain. Originally from Seattle, Mr. Angel now lives in Los Angeles. He holds the Edith R. White Endowed Chair in English at the University of Redlands, where he teaches creative writing. And, for the past two years, he has served as Visiting Poet in the MFA Program in Writing at Vermont College. Twice Removed is the thirty-ninth title to be published by Sarabande Books, a nonprofit literary press headquartered in Louisville, Kentucky. Since the 1996 debut of the press, Sarabande Books titles have received positive review attention from nationally distinguished media including The New York Times Book Review, Publishers Weekly, Kirkus Reviews, American Book Review, Small Press, The Nation, and Library Journal. This book was funded in part by a grant from the Kentucky Arts Council, a state agency of the Education, Arts and Humanities Cabinet, and by a grant from the National Endowment for the Arts. Title: Twice Removed Author: Ralph Angel ISBN: 1-889330-57-4 (cloth) 1-889330-58-2 (paper) Price: $20.95 (cloth) $12.95 (paper) Trim: 6 x 9 Marketing Information: --Author tour in Los Angeles, San Francisco, Boston, and Seattle areas --Ads in AWP, Poets & Writers, Poetry, American Poetry Review. --Featured Title in Sarabande Catalog and Newsletter. --Brochures and Postcards to MFA Programs, Bookstores, Libraries, and Author Lists. For additional information or to request a review copy, please contact: Nickole Brown Sarabande Books 2234 Dundee Road, Suite 200 Louisville, KY 40205 Phone: (502) 458-4028 Fax: (502) 458-4065 E-mail: SarabandeB at aol.com Distributed to the trade by: Consortium Book Sales & Distribution, Inc. 1045 Westgate Drive Saint Paul, MN 55114 (800) 283-3572 ------- And More I open my eyes again. So be it, good. Don't leave. The dark slides into slippers easily. The quiet finds a robe. The room rises and is falling with your breathing. As if I'd never seen you sleeping, in this house and warmth, at this hour, this bed I can't quite put my finger on and like. Please visit our Website! www.SarabandeBooks.org From TerryP17 at aol.com Wed Jun 20 10:37:13 2001 From: TerryP17 at aol.com (TerryP17 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 10:37:13 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Teaching People Not to Like Rhyme Message-ID: David-- <> Knowing Dana fairly well, I'd agree, and think this is a fair assessment. Rhyming is actually fun, makes it easy to memorize things. I was struck by this Monday night during a rehearsal of the Cathedral Choral Society in DC, which is working on a Gilbert & Sullivan Concert they're going to do with the National Symphony at Wolf Trap on July 6. Singers of all age groups were just having a blast trying to learn all this snappy patter with its boatloads of rhyme and alliteration. No redeeming social value, but lots of really good fun trying to ramp "Modern Major General" up to breakneck speed. There's just a natural attraction to this kind of thing, and I think that's what Dana was addressing. --Terry Ponick From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jun 20 10:40:30 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 10:40:30 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Lost Quotations Message-ID: <4a.176187ef.28620fde@aol.com> This list showed it knew its Browning...but for other missing swatches of verse, people might want to check out this site... The Poetry Library at Royal Festival Hall has a "Lost Quotations" noticeboard http://www.hayward-gallery.org.uk/poetry/ From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Jun 20 12:19:34 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 12:19:34 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Lost Quotations Message-ID: <38.17d146b3.28622716@cs.com> Here's the poem with the first stanza lifted from Browning. I've indicated italics with *. . .*. Also to the Tower *My first thought was, he lied in every word, That hoary cripple, with malicious eye Askance to watch the working of his lie On mine, and mouth scarce able to afford Suppression of the glee, that pursed and scored Its edge, at one more victim gained thereby.* My second thought was, *Kill the s.o.b.* "Seminal scholar," tweedy, old school tie, (Was it the Phi Bete key that caught my eye?) Who set me on this course, for it is he Who bears the sole responsibility For my dark woes, his victim gained thereby. How I hung upon his words! That tenured sage Who puffed his briar and spewed ash on my clothes While scribbling in my margins cryptic prose Directives meant to steer my callow rage To holy war against the empty page That has an ending . . . where? God only knows. *Here is your Strange Device,* he whispered, *known But to the few.* He delved into his bag And pulled therefrom a putrid swatch of rag. *Defend it well!* It was a white whale, sewn Upon a field of white. He carried on About the symbolism: *See? Your flag! * Then took my arm and led me to my mare (Only three legs but otherwise OK), Gave me my cloak and sword and six months' pay (Personal check!), a snapshot of the fair Languishing captive maid with flaxen hair (A few black roots), and sped me on my way. With his guffaws still chugging in my ear And the sealed orders snug against my chest, I spurred the nag and set forth on the quest While grackles overhead wheeled low to jeer. The road was narrow, but the way seemed clear. A sickly yellow sun hung in the West. How shall I chronicle the trials I knew? I shan't. So much for that. Let it suffice To say the ways were slick with filthy ice, The fields with filthy slush through which a few Black tangled stems of briar forlornly grew. The driven sleet picked at my skin like lice. After a year or so, I thought to stop And ask directions: *Sirrah! Might I ask The shortcut to . . . .* Perhaps my rubber mask With the red fright-wig frizzing at the top Alarmed him, for he signaled to a cop. I hurried off, still vague as to my task. Then I bethought myself to take a look Inside my mentor's envelope. (How grave His look had been!) The thing was empty, save For the dustjacket photo from his book, *The Archetypes of Wrath.* My fingers shook. I made for shelter in a nearby cave. As when some imbecile turns up his Coke And peers into the mouth to see the fly The guys have warned him of; and in his eye It dumps, while they, like victims of a stroke, Choke and redden, convulsed so with their joke They fall upon the ground and prostrate lie; Thus did I feel, on whom this jest was played. For this had I disdained wine, wench, and food? Was he the holy grail my tracks pursued? I plunged my dagger at my breast. The blade Slid back into the handle. Undismayed, I tried again. Again, the same ensued. Dark ran my thoughts, that somehow I might kill Not just myself, but take that bastard too. I turned. My mind was made. The slug-horn blew, Unmaking it, echoing forth with shrill Notes from the summit of a squatty hill Where loomed at last, though somewhat overdue, The fabled Tower where my sage had said The trail would end. In truth, I knew the place: Ivory brick, twin boulders at the base, The shaft thrust upward toward the rounded, red Turret where pennants whitely streamed. I shed Piecemeal my mail, so eager was my pace! Significant Form! So manly did I feel I plunged through the gate, pausing not to heed The motto cut above. (I could not read Italian, anyway.) A rusty squeal Snickered behind me, and I heard the steel Click of the lock, yet did not check my speed. Climbing the thing, I then at length could see The blasted prospect of that endless plain, Where, popping up like toadstools after rain, More towers stood, on each a clown like me Vainly searching his trousers for the key (The key? What key?) to set him free again. Thus, it began, my lasting tenure there, Or here, that is, here where I have my own Booze in the bottom drawer to sip alone, Which tends to help. The comforts here are spare But adequate: some books, a desk and chair, Jacket and pipe, false beard and telephone-- Which just now rings: "I called up to remind You, sir . . ." Familiar voice, though girl or boy I cannot say. ". . . today. Would it annoy You if . . ." *Very* familiar. ". . . somehow find A moment for my latest . . ." Would *I* mind? *Nothing, dear childe, would give us greater joy!* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jun 20 20:45:30 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 20:45:30 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Lyric/Anti-lyric: essays on contemporary poetry Message-ID: <9e.161f15aa.28629daa@aol.com> Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 07:19:05 -0600 From: Douglas Barbour Subject: Re: Pardon the PR, but... FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: . Lyric/Anti-lyric: essays on contemporary poetry Writer as Critic: VIII Douglas Barbour . Lyric/Anti-lyric: essays on contemporary poetry, by Douglas Barbour, is the latest addition to NeWest Press' award-winning Writer as Critic Series. . Douglas Barbour is a well known Canadian poet living in Edmonton, Alberta. Lyric/Anti-lyric begins with his well known essay by the same title and includes a number of his recent essays on the poetry of various Canadian poets-including Michael Ondaatje, Phyllis Webb, E.D. Blodgett, Roy Kiyooka, Sharon Thesen and others-as well as some Australian and New Zealand poets, and one long essay on American poet Susan Howe. Lyric/Anti-lyric brings together the best of Barbour's criticism over the past two decades. . Since first visiting Australia and New Zealand in 1984 Barbour has developed a growing interest in the poetry of both countries which share a wide range of colonial and postcolonial experiences with Canada. He has always been interested in US poetry in the Pound-Williams line, and this has led to his recent work on Howe. . "This accessible collection of essays represents twenty years of Douglas Barbour's thinking about modern and contemporary poetry. Barbour is a careful reader who attends to poetry's nuances and responds with the subtlety of a scholar and the passion of a poet. 'I tend to write essays as a series of notes,' Barbour writes, 'little travels over the body of single words, trying to see and hear what I can, and to articulate that response as accurately as possible.' His readers are fortunate indeed to join Barbour in his travels through a variety of works by Canadian, Australian and New Zealand poets." -Manina Jones . Douglas Barbour is a professor in the Department of English, University of Alberta, where he teaches creative writing, modern poetry, Canadian Literature, and science fiction and fantasy. A teacher, writer, critic, theorist, editor, publisher and poet, Barbour holds degrees from Acadia, Dalhousie and Queen's Universities. His latest book of poetry, Fragmenting Body etc was published by NeWest Press and SALT Publishing in 2000. . For more information or to order please contact: Erin Creasey NeWest Press erin at newestpress.com (780) 432-9427 www.newestpress.com . Or visit your favourite on-line bookseller. Douglas Barbour Department of English University of Alberta Edmonton Alberta Canada T6G 2E5 (h) [780] 436 3320 (b) [780] 492 0521 http://www.ualberta.ca/~dbarbour/dbhome.htm We speak and as we stop we forget even to be alone is to repeat. (A silence's potential is to be infinitely printable.) Clark Coolidge From JforJames at aol.com Thu Jun 21 12:22:18 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:22:18 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: teaching people not to like rhyme. Message-ID: <4f.d5baa2a.2863793a@aol.com> To add to what others have said: I think it's not so much an issue of young students being programmed not to like rhyme, as it was a matter of a lack of enthusiasm toward or positive reinforcement for young poets keen on rhyme & meter; or teaching sonnets, etc, as historical curiousities or rites of passage rather than one's possible life's work. Esp'lly in a certain number of influential writing programs and in many poetry writing 101courses for undergrads. Certainly if all the "masthead" poets in a school have turned away from form in their own work, it's going to be a lonely experience for any young student poet who might be inclined to formalism. But if one looked hard enough, there were always a few formalist diehards to seek out as mentors/exemplars, even when free verse held nearly universal sway. I remember MFA students at Washington U.(early 80s) taking classes with Howard Nemerov; most complained about his chiding them toward tighter more formal work. (So there may have been a lack of enthusiasm coming from the other direction as well.) Here's a bit, which I doesn't offend, that I clipped from another list some months ago...tho certainly an "overdrawn characterization," this perhaps represents what some young poets were faced with... Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 19:52:36 -0000 From: domfox Subject: The Bastard Creative Writing Teacher From Hell Is this your true voice? Have you found it yet? Read what you have written out loud, in your own voice. Does it sound true? Have you finally found your true voice? You have a talent for pastiche, and a penchant for regrettable invective, and at this rate you may be able to make a fair go of it in the world of magazines and perhaps television scriptwriting if you learn to curb your excesses and choose appropriate models for imitation. I am afraid that your true voice is not one that other people are likely to wish to hear, whiny and intemperate as it often is. You should bin at least half of what you write, and submit the other half to a competent editor; expect him to bin at least three quarters of what you give him, and be prepared to thank him for doing so. This is my advice; you can take it or leave it; you may be richer if you take it, and as for what will happen to you if you leave it, well, fortuna vera meretrix est. You are approaching authenticity somewhat timidly, in fits and starts, you self-realisation hampered by your repressed middle-class upbringing and thwarted libido. I can detect moments of true beauty and inspiration in what you have written - about one every three paragraphs. If gathered together they would make a painfully incandescent and unfortunately completely unreadable poem. For goodness, and more importantly your writing's, sake, try to lighten up. Take whatever it takes: drink, drugs, wild promiscuity (and don't give me any excuses about how none of the girls will touch you with a bargepole: what you mean is, you're *afraid*, or possibly a closet homosexual - either conquer your misogyny or get over your homophobia and I promise you you'll do fine). Try to avoid using too many latinate polysyllables. In fact, I suggest you try to do without them altogether for a brief, purgatorial, period. Read some Hemingway, some Henry Miller. Try wearing women's clothing occasionally - just a hunch, but I think it might help. Calling Allen Ginsburg a "NAMBLA-supporting pederastic fat fuck" may seem to you like a laudable expression of straight-edge attitude; but to me it just screams "Oedipal crisis". I'm loaning you my copy of Harold Bloom's "The Anxiety of Influence", which should make a few things clearer. If you have any more dreams about scary balloons, please refrain from writing them down. Man, the sonnet is just so dead. I can't believe you went and wrote something so dead as a sonnet. I could feel myself dying inside as I read the first few lines. I'm afraid I didn't make it to the couplet - had to go and screw a coupla co-ed's just to reassure myself that I wasn't about to keel over myself. Your girlfriend's pretty cute, by the way. I bet you wrote her a sonnet. I on the other hand just shared a bag of weed with her, told her she had very creative ankles and then balled her for about twenty- five minutes in the underground carpark. Saves having to think of rhymes. I also gave her a few tips on how to give better head, but you don't have to thank me for that. You write as if you had talent, which takes a kind of talent in itself. Unfortunately you have no talent, apart from the talent needed to write as if you had talent. Your writing is fake all the way through. I hated it, although it was superficially very likeable. You could be a major success, but history will forget you instantaneously the moment your mask slips and the essential cruddiness and vacuity of your writing is revealed. Go ahead, make loads of money, schtupp loads of chicks, go on loads of talk shows. I'll be watching, waiting for the denouement. You'd better believe it. You still haven't found your true voice. It's in there somewhere. Keep looking. You have to be true to yourself. Are you being true to yourself yet? From JforJames at aol.com Thu Jun 21 15:00:24 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 15:00:24 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Living Poet-Humorist Message-ID: <76.c012ae9.28639e48@aol.com> This query was posted to another list...I'll forward any tips NewPoetry list members might have... Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 15:12:59 -0400 From: claank design Subject: humor and poetry Hello I am trying to put together a list of living poets who's work is absurd or otherwise humorous. Russell Edson is on top of the list so far... I wondered if anyone might have suggestions. Thanks Andrea Baker From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Thu Jun 21 03:56:49 2001 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 02:56:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Living Poet-Humorist In-Reply-To: <76.c012ae9.28639e48@aol.com> Message-ID: on 6/21/01 2:00 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: > This query was posted to another list...I'll forward any > tips NewPoetry list members might have... > Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 15:12:59 -0400 > From: claank design > Subject: humor and poetry > > Hello > > I am trying to put together a list of living poets who's work is absurd or > otherwise humorous. Russell Edson is on top of the list so far... > > I wondered if anyone might have suggestions. > > > Thanks > Andrea Baker > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > X. J. Kennedy, R. S. Gwynn, Billy Collins. . . . Paul Lake From artwords at idirect.com Thu Jun 21 17:06:19 2001 From: artwords at idirect.com (Tanya Adele Koehnke) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:06:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Living Poet-Humorist Message-ID: <3B3261CB.3856@idirect.com> Dear Andrea, Your query brings to mind "How to Make Poetry Comics" by David Morice. About his book, Morice notes, "The readers enjoyed seeing the muse toppled from the pedestal, and several fellow poets offered their works for 'cartoonization.'" Although I have not yet read Morice's book, it definitely looks worthy of a few chuckles inasmuch as it usurps canonization through creative animation. For more information, you may visit the following website: www.twc.org/forums/TT_UCM_FAQ.html You might also want to flip through Canadian poet Dennis Lee's books for children which always ensure a rollicking read. :-D Tanya Adele Koehnke From moira_russell at hotmail.com Thu Jun 21 16:18:53 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:18:53 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: teaching people not to like rhyme. Message-ID: >Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 19:52:36 -0000 >From: domfox >Subject: The Bastard Creative Writing Teacher From Hell Um, yuck. Was this a caricature? Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Thu Jun 21 16:32:55 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 13:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Living Poet-Humorist Message-ID: <20010621203255.988FA273F@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From dzauhar at uic.edu Thu Jun 21 18:22:31 2001 From: dzauhar at uic.edu (David Zauhar) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 17:22:31 -0500 (CDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Living Poet-Humorist In-Reply-To: <76.c012ae9.28639e48@aol.com> Message-ID: Charles Simic. Ed Ochester. Gerald Locklin. Ronald Koertge. Jack Grapes. Steve Kowitt. Denise Duhamel. Maureen Seeton. Gary Soto. Ron Padgett. Edward Field. Dorianne Laux. Philip Dacey. Mark Vinz. Kenneth Koch. Bill Knott. Greg Keeler. From Canada, David McFadden. From England, V.A. Fanthorpe (I think that's right). Back in the USA, Robert Bly has cracked me up on several occasions, though rarely was that his intention. David Zauhar University of Illinois at Chicago "i have a city to cover with lines" --d.a. levy On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 JforJames at aol.com wrote: > This query was posted to another list...I'll forward any > tips NewPoetry list members might have... > Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 15:12:59 -0400 > From: claank design > Subject: humor and poetry > > Hello > > I am trying to put together a list of living poets who's work is absurd or > otherwise humorous. Russell Edson is on top of the list so far... > > I wondered if anyone might have suggestions. > > > Thanks > Andrea Baker > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Jun 21 19:30:39 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 19:30:39 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Living Poet-Humorist Message-ID: <6a.fafbb11.2863dd9f@cs.com> Wendy Cope, of course. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Fri Jun 22 00:29:08 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 23:29:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Living Poet-Humorist In-Reply-To: References: <76.c012ae9.28639e48@aol.com> Message-ID: My favorite current funnypoets would include William Trowbridge, Mark Halliday, and the Canadian Tom Wayman, and many already mentioned. But there aren't too many poets I love who don't have at least a streak of humor. Denise Levertov & Adrienne Rich are the only ones who spring immediately to mind. Can anyone recall a funny poem committed by either? David Graham _____________________ >Charles Simic. Ed Ochester. Gerald Locklin. Ronald Koertge. Jack >Grapes. Steve Kowitt. Denise Duhamel. Maureen Seeton. Gary Soto. Ron >Padgett. Edward Field. Dorianne Laux. Philip Dacey. Mark Vinz. >Kenneth Koch. Bill Knott. Greg Keeler. From Canada, David McFadden. From >England, V.A. Fanthorpe (I think that's right). Back in the USA, Robert >Bly has cracked me up on several occasions, though rarely was that his >intention. > >David Zauhar >University of Illinois at Chicago > __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From dweinsto at middlebury.edu Fri Jun 22 01:46:03 2001 From: dweinsto at middlebury.edu (David Weinstock) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 00:46:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Living Poet-Humorist Message-ID: <200106220447.f5M4ln927932@wiz.cath.vt.edu> I've been thinking about this a lot, especially since judging a poetry competition last winter. Funny poems are rare indeed. Even funny people don't write funny poems. Perfectly normally witty human beings, when they get to writing poems, go solemn as an undertaker. I can only guess that most think it's illegal, or indecorous, or somehow inconsistent with the spirit of the art. Actually, David, I'm surprised you don't remember that Adrienne Rich and Denise Levertov once collaborated on a hilarious book of limericks, "There Once Was a Person of Gender." Sometimes the Comedy Channel still reruns a tape of a reading they did of it. My favorite part is when Levertov goes off-script and starts doing her W.C. Fields impression, and Rich, not to be outdone, recites an entire Bill Cosby routine about Fat Albert. Next time I see I'll tape it for you. David W. ---------- >From: David Graham >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: [New-Poetry] Living Poet-Humorist >Date: Thu, Jun 21, 2001, 11:29 PM > > My favorite current funnypoets would include William Trowbridge, Mark > Halliday, and the Canadian Tom Wayman, and many already mentioned. > > But there aren't too many poets I love who don't have at least a streak of > humor. Denise Levertov & Adrienne Rich are the only ones who spring > immediately to mind. Can anyone recall a funny poem committed by either? > > David Graham > _____________________ > > > >>Charles Simic. Ed Ochester. Gerald Locklin. Ronald Koertge. Jack >>Grapes. Steve Kowitt. Denise Duhamel. Maureen Seeton. Gary Soto. Ron >>Padgett. Edward Field. Dorianne Laux. Philip Dacey. Mark Vinz. >>Kenneth Koch. Bill Knott. Greg Keeler. From Canada, David McFadden. From >>England, V.A. Fanthorpe (I think that's right). Back in the USA, Robert >>Bly has cracked me up on several occasions, though rarely was that his >>intention. >> >>David Zauhar >>University of Illinois at Chicago >> > > __________________ > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > __________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From moira_russell at hotmail.com Fri Jun 22 02:29:57 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 22:29:57 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Living Poet-Humorist Message-ID: David W. wrote to David G.: >My favorite part is when Levertov goes >off-script and starts doing her W.C. Fields impression, and Rich, not to be >outdone, recites an entire Bill Cosby routine about Fat Albert. Man, you are kidding me, right? If not, could you possibly dub off a tape for me, too? Moira Russell salivating in Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From Slyyake at aol.com Fri Jun 22 09:29:37 2001 From: Slyyake at aol.com (Slyyake at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:29:37 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Living Poets Humorists Message-ID: My favorite is England's Wendy Cope. Stevie Smith (female, British) and Dorothy Parker, of the dead poets. Sarah Yake Conversation enriches the understanding; but solitude is the school of genius. --R.W. Emerson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Fri Jun 22 09:33:27 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:33:27 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: "widely accessible" Poet Laureate Message-ID: <3b.1660df9c.2864a327@aol.com> > Subj: "widely accessible" Poet Laureate > Date: 6/21/01 3:16:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time > From: MatererT at missouri.edu (Timothy Materer) > Sender: owner-MODERN_POETS-L at lists.missouri.edu > Reply-to: MODERN_POETS-L at lists.missouri.edu > To: MODERN_POETS-L at lists.missouri.edu > > Copyright 2001 The Washington Post > June 21, 2001, Thursday, Final Edition > > Lloyd Grove Washington Post, Staff Writer > > * The Library of Congress has named English professor Billy Collins > the new U.S. poet laureate. > > "I haven't done a cost-benefit analysis," the 60-year-old Collins > told The Post's Linton Weeks yesterday > from his farmhouse in Somers, N.Y. "When your country calls, you rise > to the occasion. Or attempt to. > My first reaction was: vertigo." He added that he accepted the post > as the country's 11th poet > laureate for the "sheer glory of it." > > "Billy Collins's poetry is widely accessible," Librarian of Congress > James H. Billington said about the City > University of New York professor. "He writes in an original way about > all manner of ordinary things and > situations." > > Consider these lines from Collins's poem "Victoria's Secret": "Who > has the time to linger on these > delicate / lures, these once unmentionable things? / Life is rushing > by like a mad, swollen river. / One > minute roses are opening in the garden / and the next, snow is flying > past my window." > > Collins's latest collection, "Sailing Alone Around the Room: New and > Selected Poems," will be published > in September. He replaces Stanley Kunitz in the position that gives > him responsibility for a reading > series at the library and for promoting poetry throughout the land. > > > -- > > Timothy Materer, 107 Tate Hall, English Department > University of Missouri, Columbia MO 65211 > Fax: 573 882-5785 > Modern_Poets-L: The Modern Poets Electronic Discussion Forum > http://www.missouri.edu/~engtim/mopo.html > From JforJames at aol.com Fri Jun 22 09:51:02 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:51:02 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Living Poets Humorists Message-ID: <75.168dccd8.2864a746@aol.com> A few poets who often employ humor; all alive last I heard... James Tate, Tom Wayman (Canadian), Robert Creely (sometimes), Heather McHugh, David Lee, Charles Simic, David Clewell, Hal Sirowitz, Martha McFerren, Gerald Stern. Finnegan From JackKerouac25 at aol.com Fri Jun 22 10:27:47 2001 From: JackKerouac25 at aol.com (JackKerouac25 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 10:27:47 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Modern Poets-L Message-ID: <5b.17b2da5f.2864afe3@aol.com> Howdy Poetry People, Question: How do I joint Modern Poets-L? Would someone answer me off-list? Thanks a million. Jeff Newberry Adjunct Instructor Department of English and Foreign Languages University of West Florida From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Jun 22 11:05:12 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:05:12 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Living Poet-Humorist Message-ID: In a message dated 6/21/2001 11:48:53 PM Central Daylight Time, dweinsto at middlebury.edu writes: > Actually, David, I'm surprised you don't remember that Adrienne Rich and > Denise Levertov once collaborated on a hilarious book of limericks, "There > Once Was a Person of Gender." Sometimes the Comedy Channel still reruns a > tape of a reading they did of it. My favorite part is when Levertov goes > off-script and starts doing her W.C. Fields impression, and Rich, not to be > outdone, recites an entire Bill Cosby routine about Fat Albert. Next time I > see I'll tape it for you. > I always thought Levertov's poem about stabbing Nixon and napalming Kissinger was a real scream. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Jun 22 11:06:37 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:06:37 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: "widely accessible" Poet Laureate Message-ID: Billy Collins? This should put an end to the funny poet debate. Great choice! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Jun 22 11:07:15 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:07:15 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Living Poets Humorists Message-ID: <12f.6383e3.2864b923@cs.com> In a message dated 6/22/2001 8:51:40 AM Central Daylight Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > A few poets who often employ humor; all alive last I heard... > James Tate, Tom Wayman (Canadian), Robert Creely (sometimes), > Heather McHugh, David Lee, Charles Simic, David Clewell, > Hal Sirowitz, Martha McFerren, Gerald Stern. > Finnegan > Leon Stokesbury is another. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Fri Jun 22 11:34:48 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:34:48 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: teaching people not to like rhyme. Message-ID: In a message dated 6/21/01 4:19:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, moira_russell at hotmail.com writes: > Bastard Creative Writing Teacher From Hell > > > > Um, yuck. Was this a caricature? Moira, Yes...but not of any one badboy teacher, I don't think. Much of what is suspect & distasteful balled up into a monologue. The advice to shy away from "Latinate" polysyllables I know I have heard at least second hand. Finnegan From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jun 22 11:49:47 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 11:49:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Our "Accessible" New Poet Laureate, Billy Collins References: <4f.d5baa2a.2863793a@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B33691A.4EA0@nut-n-but.net> "Life is rushing by like a mad swollen river?" That's supposed to be accessible? Surely only another poet could appreciate such a brilliantly apt, original, and deep simile. --Bob G. From wasanthony at yahoo.com Fri Jun 22 12:09:46 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:09:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: teaching people not to like rhyme. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010622160946.83106.qmail@web12108.mail.yahoo.com> Rats. I seem to have missed the original "Bastard Creative Writing Teacher From Hell" post and, being a creative writing teacher sometimes bastardly (secretly) and from/in hell, it sounds like a must read. Would the original poster please send it to me backchannel. One is not supposed to say "thanks" in advance . . . but, thanks. - Jim --- JforJames at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 6/21/01 4:19:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > moira_russell at hotmail.com writes: > > > Bastard Creative Writing Teacher From Hell > > > > > > > > Um, yuck. Was this a caricature? > Moira, > Yes...but not of any one badboy teacher, I don't think. > Much of what is suspect & distasteful balled up into > a monologue. The advice to shy away from > "Latinate" polysyllables I know I have heard > at least second hand. > Finnegan > ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From wasanthony at yahoo.com Fri Jun 22 12:12:07 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 09:12:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Our "Accessible" New Poet Laureate, Billy Collins In-Reply-To: <3B33691A.4EA0@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <20010622161207.4097.qmail@web12105.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bob Grumman wrote: > "Life is rushing by like a mad swollen river?" That's > supposed to be accessible? Surely only another poet could > appreciate such a brilliantly apt, original, and deep simile. > Or a swollen life rushes by like a mad river. Or . . . what the hell, I think everyone should write an ode to Billy Collins, drowned by swollen fame. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From Jandhodge at aol.com Fri Jun 22 12:53:54 2001 From: Jandhodge at aol.com (Jandhodge at aol.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 12:53:54 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Our "Accessible" New Poet Laureate, Billy Collins Message-ID: <73.f0568b5.2864d222@aol.com> << "Life is rushing by like a mad swollen river?" That's supposed to be accessible? Surely only another poet could appreciate such a brilliantly apt, original, and deep simile. --Bob G. >> Or any one of the thousands of people who have been displaced by floods during the last several years?? Jan From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jun 22 15:25:09 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 15:25:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Our "Accessible" New Poet Laureate, Billy Collins References: <73.f0568b5.2864d222@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B339B95.41D0@nut-n-but.net> > "Life is rushing by like a mad swollen river?" That's > supposed to be accessible? Surely only another poet could > appreciate such a brilliantly apt, original, and deep simile. > > --Bob G. >> > > Or any one of the thousands of people who have been > displaced by floods during the last several years?? > They'd sure understand the amazingly original image of the "mad swollen river," by gum, especially if they kept up with newspaper writin', but would they have the cultural resources to see how life could plausibly be compared to it? With that, I myself am already tired of my sarcasticness, so that's it for this thread, for me, Jan. --Bob G. From wasanthony at yahoo.com Fri Jun 22 21:31:16 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 18:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Ode to Billy Collins Message-ID: <20010623013116.60204.qmail@web12104.mail.yahoo.com> Ode to Billy Collins Little words can grow up to be big words, like "pup" can become "big-dog." But chihuahua can never become mastiff. Likewise, what's on the back of a lease really amounts to: "Money in the bank for lessor." No other way to say it, no other way to see it except as incoming fog that obscures concourse "D" of a new shopping center near Maryland's share of deep Chesapeake Bay. Like aforesaid "big-dog," words can get out of hand and you'll find yourself chasing the loop on the end of a leash, whistling in thickening fog. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From JforJames at aol.com Sat Jun 23 20:30:00 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 20:30:00 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Billy Collins Message-ID: <92.16742f31.28668e88@aol.com> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010620/en/poet_l aureate_1.html Collins Named U.S. Poet Laureate By CARL HARTMAN, Associated Press Writer WASHINGTON (AP) - Billy Collins, a popular poet who makes money at the job, was named Wednesday as the 11th U.S. poet laureate. Collins can collect $2,000 for a single reading of his poetry and Random House has reportedly offered him a publishing contract of at least $100,000 for three books. He also is a distinguished professor of English at Lehman College in Somers, N.Y. His one-year post as laureate will net him a $35,000 salary, a Washington office at the Library of Congress (news - web sites) and few duties except to give more readings. Collins, born in 1941, succeeds 95-year-old Stanley Kunitz and Robert Pinsky, whose project to collect Americans' favorite poems drew the participation of President Clinton (news - web sites) and first lady Hillary Rodham Clinton (news - web sites). There's no problem interpreting Collins' poetry. He has written a sonnet in the conventional 14 lines but with little regard for such matters as rhyme or meter. Four of the lines read: ``How easily it goes unless you get Elizabethan and insist the iambic bongos must be played and rhymes positioned at the end of lines one for every station of the cross.'' He wrote one poem about a neighbor's barking dog who annoyed him so much that he started playing a Beethoven record to drown out the noise. ``... but I can still hear him muffled under the music barking, barking, barking ... and now I see him sitting in the orchestra his head raised confidently as if Beethoven had included a part for barking dog.'' From JforJames at aol.com Sat Jun 23 20:41:50 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 20:41:50 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Billy Collins Message-ID: <97.173adb45.2866914e@aol.com> http://www.nypress.com/14/25/billboard/#6/21_2 Jim Knipfel Roses Are Red/Something-Something-Something Let the bells ring out and the banners fly! America has a new poet laureate! To celebrate, let's all go down to the coffee shop and read aloud from the collected works of...Billy Collins! When I first saw the headline "Collins Named U.S. Poet Laureate," hell, I thought they meant either Jackie or Phil at first. Realizing that they weren't exactly American, I knew I shouldn't get my hopes up. Then I figured maybe it was Bootsy. Now that would give us some reason to care about what the poet laureate was up to. But no, it was Billy. Billy Collins, American. He's even a local?teaching English up at Lehman College. And, according to the AP story, he's also incredibly popular. Well, you know?for a poet. For some reason, whenever I hear of a "popular poet," I immediately think of Candy's McPhisto. Now, I have nothing against poetry. Or even some poets. But let's think about this. I've always been under the impression (though I'm sure the people at the Library of Congress would take issue with me) that the job was created in the first place in a vain attempt to prove to the rest of the world (especially those damned snooty Europeans!) that there was, in fact, much as the foreigners may scoff, such a thing as capital-C American Culture. For a while there, I think we were doing okay, too. I think we were able to pull it off. "U.S. Poet Laureate" was a position first held in 1937 by Joseph Auslander. In later years it's been held by such luminaries as Robert Frost, Robert Penn Warren, Robert Lowell, Karl Shapiro, Howard Nemerov, Conrad Aiken and William Carlos Williams?all very respectable poets. Their work's profound but not too highfalutin, so regular folks could read some of it on one of those "Poetry in Motion" subway posters and not be all "Huh?" In recent years, however, I think the job has lost some of its sheen. (Quick?recite a few lines by Mona Van Duyn or Robert Hass.) It's become less a matter of honoring the one poet who most richly captured the prevailing American spirit in verse than just another side project for some already-tenured English professor who happened to know somebody. Here are a few lines from a poem Collins wrote about trying to drown out a barking dog by playing Beethoven really loud. ...but I can still hear him muffled under the music barking, barking, barking... and now I see him sitting in the orchestra his head raised confidently as if Beethoven had included a part for barking dog. As the AP story put it, "There's no problem interpreting Collins' poetry." I guess not?and I have no problem with that. The fact that his poetry is "simple" probably helps explain why he's so popular. Maybe by being "simple," he's a more accurate representative of what passes for capital-C American Culture these days. Maybe it would be foolish to try to put some (as Terry Southern called them) Quality Lit types in there. Still, we probably won't be fooling any Europeans this time around. From JforJames at aol.com Sat Jun 23 21:23:50 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 21:23:50 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] TROPE Message-ID: <115.b22ddd.28669b26@aol.com> Stripped from subsubpoetics archive... Date: Jun 07 2001 15:11:32 EDT From: David Hickman Subject: Trope The Second Issue of TROPE is now completed and online at http://home.earthlink.net/~ibid1/ Poetry: Joe Brennan, Carlo Parcelli, Elizabeth Kronoff, Frank Shalley, David Hickman, Erminia Passannanti, Christopher Mulrooney Fiction and Essays: Jack Foley, John Atkinson, Sheridan Hill Art: Clark Arroyo, Susan Rule, Alice Nym From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sun Jun 24 12:38:11 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 12:38:11 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Daily Message-ID: <103.527f28a.28677173@cs.com> A reminder: tomorrow's a big day here: Poetry Daily http://www.poems.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sun Jun 24 16:36:31 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 16:36:31 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Humor in poetry Message-ID: Light Quarterly will be featured on Poetry Daily on Friday 29 June. www.poems.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wasanthony at yahoo.com Mon Jun 25 17:49:57 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 14:49:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Today's Poetry Daily Message-ID: <20010625214957.19905.qmail@web12104.mail.yahoo.com> Enjoyed Sam Gwynn day on Poetry Daily. "Release" satisfied my predilection for the lyric. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From Jandhodge at aol.com Mon Jun 25 20:46:10 2001 From: Jandhodge at aol.com (Jandhodge at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:46:10 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] "widely accessible" Poet Laureate Message-ID: <5b.17dd266b.28693552@aol.com> Anyone but me struck by the irony that some of those who most often bewail the "lack of an audience for poetry" are among the loudest detractors of a poet who is both good and widely popular? Just thought I'd send along Collins's own response to the "charge" that his poetry is "accessible." This from an article in the NYTimes: MR. COLLINS is often called accessible, because his poems appeal to those who find many poets inscrutable. He dislikes the word, saying it calls to mind on-ramps for the "poetically handicapped." He prefers "hospitable." For a long time he thought only difficult poems had value. He had what he called his neo- beatnik Angry Young Man phase, then a Brooding Romantic Genius phase, then a Slavish Imitation phase. Then he decided that there was no reason life's questions could not be probed head on. The best poems, he now believes, start in clarity and end in mystery. Cheers, Jan From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Jun 25 21:55:18 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 21:55:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "widely accessible" Poet Laureate References: <5b.17dd266b.28693552@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B37EB86.305F@nut-n-but.net> Just to set the record straight about myself, I'm an elitist, so do not bewail poetry's lack of an audience any more than I bewail mathematics's lack of an audience. What I bewail is that in this country the best poets get real recognition from no one but each other, nor any material help in achieving as much as they could from those claiming to nurture our culture while mediocrities, some of them no doubt quite good at filling out received forms with received techniques, tonalities, attitudes and subject matter, but none taking what any sane observer would call aesthetic risks, get the laurels and grants. But Ted Pelton put it better. --Bob G. From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu Tue Jun 26 00:01:55 2001 From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Amber Prentiss) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 00:01:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "widely accessible" Poet Laureate Message-ID: (It's late. I'm hyper. This is long. You are all forewarned.) Is material help desperately necessary to advance poetry? Poets have no canvas to stretch, no need to watch their credit balances rise at Dick Blick or much more than a little time, a little space, a pen, pencil, crayon, and some paper or, if hard pressed, lipstick and a napkin. Poets seem to me to be the last ones in need of artistic welfare, except for those truly on their last financial legs. While it would be nice for anyone to have said to them, 'Here, I like what you do, have some cash so you can hole up for a while,' it's really not going to happen. Is someone's poetry going to just stop if they don't get that grant? I don't think so. I will insist on this until I have an asthma attack: Poetry needs the audience, hell, *an* audience composed of more than poets, and to think that poetry is too difficult for the book-minded with free time and access to decent libraries and/or bookstores (who else do you expect to read?), that poetry is for the elect, is nonsense. Difficult fiction can still make the big consumer book reviews and occasionally even the bestseller lists. Difficult art creates controversy in New York. But few people seem to read contemporary poetry whether it's difficult or not, whether it's awarded or not, whether it's rhymed or not, long or not, etc. Why the (fill-in) is that so? Is poetry so hard that even the literary reading public, not absolutely enormous but there, that seems to have amiably trucked along with plenty of convoluted isms in the fiction world, can't get it? People have no idea what contemporary poetry is up to. I'm just barely finding out now (you list-folk have helped a lot.) It's not even on the radar screen. And it's a damn shame, because what I think poetry is good at, giving little pills of emotion and jolting the imagination in what's usually a relatively tiny space (as compared to a short story or novel), is damn near perfect for a world with no time and less feeling. No audience for poetry? Unless all those who compulsively read as children, the numbers filling college campuses, the people of all stripes who just love curling up with a good book are absolute dolts, there is one. They just don't know we're here. When was the last time you read a review in something your mother could pick up of something other than a long-established poet's New & Selected? How many handfuls of poetry books written in the last 25 years can you separate from your local bookstore's stock selection of the classics and the canonized? That's the dang root of the problem, not some incredibly special nature of poetry. Or so I think. If you got all the way down here, thanks for reading. -Amber -----Original Message----- From: Bob Grumman To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 6/25/2001 9:55 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "widely accessible" Poet Laureate Just to set the record straight about myself, I'm an elitist, so do not bewail poetry's lack of an audience any more than I bewail mathematics's lack of an audience. What I bewail is that in this country the best poets get real recognition from no one but each other, nor any material help in achieving as much as they could from those claiming to nurture our culture while mediocrities, some of them no doubt quite good at filling out received forms with received techniques, tonalities, attitudes and subject matter, but none taking what any sane observer would call aesthetic risks, get the laurels and grants. But Ted Pelton put it better. --Bob G. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Jun 26 06:23:44 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 06:23:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "widely accessible" Poet Laureate References: Message-ID: <3B3862B0.5B14@nut-n-but.net> Amber Prentiss wrote: > > (It's late. I'm hyper. This is long. You are all forewarned.) > > Is material help desperately necessary to advance poetry? No. I certainly did not say it was. But without help, a poet has to work, and unless lucky will have to work at a job that flattens his mind. At the very best, it will only rob him of the leisure to do as much poetry as he otherwise would have. I'm currently reading an interesting book about the Princeton Institute of Advanced Study. Mathematicians and various theoretical scientists are given free rides there to do nothing but think. I claim it helped science. Something similar would help writers. As for audience, when you bring in the "book-minded," you're already an elitist concerned with a small minority. And it is a fact, not nonsense, that the most advanced poetry is difficult beyond the (full) grasp of all but the few just the way advanced mathematics is--although, since it is verbal, some levels of it can (perhaps even, ought to) be accessible (which is not generally the case with mathematics). --Bob G. Poets have no > canvas to stretch, no need to watch their credit balances rise at Dick Blick > or much more than a little time, a little space, a pen, pencil, crayon, and > some paper or, if hard pressed, lipstick and a napkin. Poets seem to me to > be the last ones in need of artistic welfare, except for those truly on > their last financial legs. While it would be nice for anyone to have said to > them, 'Here, I like what you do, have some cash so you can hole up for a > while,' it's really not going to happen. Is someone's poetry going to just > stop if they don't get that grant? I don't think so. > > I will insist on this until I have an asthma attack: Poetry needs the > audience, hell, *an* audience composed of more than poets, and to think that > poetry is too difficult for the book-minded with free time and access to > decent libraries and/or bookstores (who else do you expect to read?), that > poetry is for the elect, is nonsense. Difficult fiction can still make the > big consumer book reviews and occasionally even the bestseller lists. > Difficult art creates controversy in New York. But few people seem to read > contemporary poetry whether it's difficult or not, whether it's awarded or > not, whether it's rhymed or not, long or not, etc. Why the (fill-in) is that > so? Is poetry so hard that even the literary reading public, not absolutely > enormous but there, that seems to have amiably trucked along with plenty of > convoluted isms in the fiction world, can't get it? People have no idea what > contemporary poetry is up to. I'm just barely finding out now (you list-folk > have helped a lot.) It's not even on the radar screen. And it's a damn > shame, because what I think poetry is good at, giving little pills of > emotion and jolting the imagination in what's usually a relatively tiny > space (as compared to a short story or novel), is damn near perfect for a > world with no time and less feeling. No audience for poetry? Unless all > those who compulsively read as children, the numbers filling college > campuses, the people of all stripes who just love curling up with a good > book are absolute dolts, there is one. They just don't know we're here. When > was the last time you read a review in something your mother could pick up > of something other than a long-established poet's New & Selected? How many > handfuls of poetry books written in the last 25 years can you separate from > your local bookstore's stock selection of the classics and the canonized? > That's the dang root of the problem, not some incredibly special nature of > poetry. > > Or so I think. If you got all the way down here, thanks for reading. > > -Amber > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Grumman > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: 6/25/2001 9:55 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "widely accessible" Poet Laureate > > Just to set the record straight about myself, I'm an > elitist, so do not bewail poetry's lack of an audience > any more than I bewail mathematics's lack of an audience. > What I bewail is that in this country the best poets > get real recognition from no one but each other, nor > any material help in achieving as much as they could > from those claiming to nurture our culture while > mediocrities, some of them no doubt quite good at > filling out received forms with received techniques, > tonalities, attitudes and subject matter, but none taking > what any sane observer would call aesthetic risks, get the > laurels and grants. But Ted Pelton put it better. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Tue Jun 26 08:29:32 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 05:29:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] "widely accessible" Poet Laureate Message-ID: <20010626122932.B211236F9@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jun 26 08:32:22 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 08:32:22 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] a poem by Erin Belieu Message-ID: <115.d32a87.2869dad6@aol.com> NEWS OF THE WAR The neighbor's wolfhound is in heat again - I hear her circling the block, a shapely ghost that ruts behind our garbage bin. There is no fence built high enough to keep her home. The full stink of summer leans on us all; the poor and old expire, sighing in their suffocating rooms. I have come to expect this, the small event of her nightly mission, tail held stiff, divining rod that pulls the storm, unleashing thundereads. Erin Belieu --------------------------------- copyright (c) 2000 by Erin Belieu. From "One Above & One Below," published by Copper Canyon Press (http://www.ccpress.org) From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Jun 26 09:02:17 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:02:17 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] a poem by Erin Belieu In-Reply-To: <115.d32a87.2869dad6@aol.com> Message-ID: Finnegan, should that last line be "thunderheads"? Hal "If the brain were so simple we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't.'' --Lyall Watson Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson > NEWS OF THE WAR > > > The neighbor's wolfhound > is in heat again - > > I hear her circling the block, > a shapely ghost that ruts > behind our garbage bin. > > There is no fence > built high enough to keep her > home. The full stink > of summer leans on us > > all; the poor and old expire, > sighing in their suffocating > rooms. I have come > > to expect this, the small > event of her nightly > mission, tail held stiff, > > divining rod that pulls > the storm, unleashing > thundereads. > > > > Erin Belieu > > > --------------------------------- > copyright (c) 2000 by Erin Belieu. From "One Above & One Below," published by > Copper Canyon Press (http://www.ccpress.org) > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jdavis at panix.com Tue Jun 26 09:28:36 2001 From: jdavis at panix.com (Jordan Davis) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:28:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Hood, Praed, and Beddoes In-Reply-To: <20010626122932.B211236F9@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: Just when I was convinced they weren't going to make new editions of the kinds of books you find in the great used bookstores, out comes Selected Poems of Thomas Hood, Winthrop Mackworth Praed, and Thomas Lovell Beddoes, edited by Susan J. Wolfson and Peter J. Manning from, of all places, U Pittsburgh Press! The nineteenth century before it lost its sense of humor... from Hood's The Last Man 'Twas in the year two thousand and one, A pleasant morning of May, I sat on the gallows-tree, all alone, A chaunting a merry lay, -- To think how the pest had spared my life, To sing with the larks that day! When up the heath came a jolly knave, Like a scarecrow, all in rags: It made me crow to see his old duds Allabroad in the wind, like flags; -- So up he came to the timbers' foot And pitch'd down his greasy bags. -- Good Lord! how blithe the old beggar was! At pulling out his scraps, -- THe very sight of his broken orts Made a work in his wrinkled chaps: 'Come down,' says he, 'you Newgate-bird, And have a taste of my snaps!' -- Then down the rope, like a tar from the mast, I slided, and by him stood; But I wish'd myself on the gallows again When I smelt that beggar's food, -- A foul beef-bone and a mouldy crust; -- 'Oh!' quoth he, 'the heavens are good!' ... Jordan From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jun 26 09:49:48 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 09:49:48 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] a poem by Erin Belieu Message-ID: In a message dated 6/26/01 9:07:30 AM Eastern Daylight Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > Finnegan, should that last line be "thunderheads"? > > Hal Hal, that's right I'm sure...I read it without even noticing the typo...disclaimer: typo wasn't mine...I just did a cut & paste from the publisher's email promo. Jim From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Jun 26 11:01:23 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:01:23 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Hood, Praed, and Beddoes Message-ID: <10d.1ddcb3c.2869fdc3@cs.com> Praed is especially good. It's a shame that so much of his stuff is so topical that it makes little sense without extensive notes. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu Tue Jun 26 13:56:57 2001 From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Amber Prentiss) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 13:56:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Turnaround Time and Simultaneous Submissions (not long-winded) Message-ID: What's a reasonable turnaround time for a submission of poetry? How prevalent are non-permitted simultaneous submissions? Does everybody do it or just a few renegades? -Amber From fmm1 at cornell.edu Tue Jun 26 14:22:41 2001 From: fmm1 at cornell.edu (Fred Muratori) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:22:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Turnaround Time and Simultaneous Submissions (not long-winded) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010626140528.00a4dac0@postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu> Reasonable is 2 or 3 months -- but magazines haven't been that reasonable since the 1970s, before all you young whippersnappers flooded the MFA programs and glutted the mags with more poems than any group of dedicated editors could even begin to read over the course of multiple lifetimes. Seriously, though, I'm finding that magazines now keep my work for at least 5 months to a year, or -- with frightening regularity -- seem to misplace it entirely. I don't indulge in simultaneous submissions myself, but I think they're justified by the absurdly long turnaround times. (Example: after waiting nearly a year for a response, I had an argument with one editor about this point -- he'd written an editorial about the evils of multiple submission -- and was subsequently banned from submitting work to his magazine.) Generally I'll wait about six months, then query the publication. If I don't receive a timely response to the query, I'll consider the poems lost and send them elsewhere. I should note, though, that my last acceptance came after 18 months of consideration -- long after the sub had been given up for lost -- and other acceptances have come after a year or more. The situation is even worse with book: I've had query letters -- just queries with samples, not full mss. -- that have been out for at least a year. More and more mags will consider simultaneous submissions as long as you notify them when something has been take elsewhere. The safe bet is to check out the mag itself -- or its Web site -- for specific policies. And speaking of Web sites, check out http://www.library.cornell.edu/okuref/lit/litmags.html It's a little service I provide for MFAs here at Cornell, and contains links to sites for those magazines the Library subscribes to. -- Fred M. At 01:56 PM 6/26/01 -0400, you wrote: >What's a reasonable turnaround time for a submission of poetry? How >prevalent are non-permitted simultaneous submissions? Does everybody do it >or just a few renegades? > >-Amber >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ******************************************************** Fred Muratori (fmm1 at cornell.edu) Reference Services Division Olin * Kroch * Uris Libraries Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853 WWW: http://fmref.library.cornell.edu/spectra.html ********************************************************* "The spaces between things keep getting bigger and more important." - John Ashbery From languagethief at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 14:29:14 2001 From: languagethief at yahoo.com (The Old Mole) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 11:29:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Turnaround Time and Simultaneous Submissions (not long-winded) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010626140528.00a4dac0@postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: <20010626182914.68643.qmail@web12206.mail.yahoo.com> Fred -- no luck with the link. Are you sure it's right? Tad --- Fred Muratori wrote: > Reasonable is 2 or 3 months -- but magazines haven't > been that reasonable > since the 1970s, before all you young > whippersnappers flooded the MFA > programs and glutted the mags with more poems than > any group of dedicated > editors could even begin to read over the course of > multiple lifetimes. > > Seriously, though, I'm finding that magazines now > keep my work for at least > 5 months to a year, or -- with frightening > regularity -- seem to misplace > it entirely. I don't indulge in simultaneous > submissions myself, but I > think they're justified by the absurdly long > turnaround times. (Example: > after waiting nearly a year for a response, I had an > argument with one > editor about this point -- he'd written an editorial > about the evils of > multiple submission -- and was subsequently banned > from submitting work to > his magazine.) Generally I'll wait about six months, > then query the > publication. If I don't receive a timely response > to the query, I'll > consider the poems lost and send them elsewhere. I > should note, though, > that my last acceptance came after 18 months of > consideration -- long after > the sub had been given up for lost -- and other > acceptances have come after > a year or more. The situation is even worse with > book: I've had query > letters -- just queries with samples, not full mss. > -- that have been out > for at least a year. > > More and more mags will consider simultaneous > submissions as long as you > notify them when something has been take elsewhere. > The safe bet is to > check out the mag itself -- or its Web site -- for > specific policies. And > speaking of Web sites, check out > http://www.library.cornell.edu/okuref/lit/litmags.html > It's a little > service I provide for MFAs here at Cornell, and > contains links to sites for > those magazines the Library subscribes to. > > -- Fred M. > > > At 01:56 PM 6/26/01 -0400, you wrote: > >What's a reasonable turnaround time for a > submission of poetry? How > >prevalent are non-permitted simultaneous > submissions? Does everybody do it > >or just a few renegades? > > > >-Amber > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > ******************************************************** > Fred Muratori > (fmm1 at cornell.edu) > Reference Services Division > Olin * Kroch * Uris Libraries > Cornell University > Ithaca, NY 14853 > WWW: http://fmref.library.cornell.edu/spectra.html > ********************************************************* > "The spaces between things keep getting bigger and > more > important." - John Ashbery > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From yakub_beg at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 14:31:14 2001 From: yakub_beg at yahoo.com (K. Lorraine Graham) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:31:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Turnaround Time and Simultaneous Submissions (not long-winded) Message-ID: There's also a list at the EPC of print & electronic mags: http://epc.buffalo.edu/mags/ -Lorraine Graham Research Assistant China Program The Henry L. Stimson Center 11 Dupont Circle, NW Suite 900 Washington, DC 20036 Tel: (202) 223-5956 ext. 3470 Fax: (202) 238-9604 http://www.stimson.org _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From yakub_beg at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 14:39:41 2001 From: yakub_beg at yahoo.com (K. Lorraine Graham) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:39:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Turnaround Time and Simultaneous Submissions (not long-winded) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: oops, didn't mean to have the stodgy sig file attached to that email. Very washingtonesque... -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu]On Behalf Of K. Lorraine Graham Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2001 2:31 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Turnaround Time and Simultaneous Submissions (not long-winded) There's also a list at the EPC of print & electronic mags: http://epc.buffalo.edu/mags/ -Lorraine Graham Research Assistant China Program The Henry L. Stimson Center 11 Dupont Circle, NW Suite 900 Washington, DC 20036 Tel: (202) 223-5956 ext. 3470 Fax: (202) 238-9604 http://www.stimson.org _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com From fmm1 at cornell.edu Tue Jun 26 15:47:40 2001 From: fmm1 at cornell.edu (Fred Muratori) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:47:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Turnaround Time and Simultaneous Submissions (not long-winded) In-Reply-To: <20010626182914.68643.qmail@web12206.mail.yahoo.com> References: <4.2.0.58.20010626140528.00a4dac0@postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010626154616.00a47240@postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu> At 11:29 AM 6/26/01 -0700, you wrote: >Fred -- no luck with the link. Are you sure it's >right? > > >Tad Whoops, my typo. The link should have read: http://www.library.cornell.edu/okuref/lit/litmag.html -- no "s" on "litmag." -- Fred ******************************************************** Fred Muratori (fmm1 at cornell.edu) Reference Services Division Olin * Kroch * Uris Libraries Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853 WWW: http://fmref.library.cornell.edu/spectra.html ********************************************************* "The spaces between things keep getting bigger and more important." - John Ashbery -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wasanthony at yahoo.com Tue Jun 26 18:22:39 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 15:22:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Turnaround Time and Simultaneous Submissions (not long-winded) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010626222239.93873.qmail@web12103.mail.yahoo.com> --- Amber Prentiss wrote: > What's a reasonable turnaround time for a submission of poetry? How > prevalent are non-permitted simultaneous submissions? Does everybody > do it > or just a few renegades? > I'm with the other folk. Two to three months should be sufficient. I only wait three months before sending the work elsewhere if I haven't heard anything. I also lessen the frustration time by staying away from those magazines whose high-handed inconsideration might results in waits of six months or longer. Lately, the turnaround time for me has been one year from writing a poem to seeing it in print. Electronic publications, of course, are a lot faster. As for simultaneous submissions: I do that only with magazines who say in print that they allow it. And they should all declare in print one way or the other about that. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ From JforJames at aol.com Tue Jun 26 19:14:49 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 19:14:49 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Turnaround Time and Simultaneous Submissions (not long-winded) Message-ID: <11d.da46a9.286a7169@aol.com> I've never understood how a mag that pays only contrib copies, or at best a paltry fee, can insist on anything other than courtesy from those who submit work. Seems simple enough to me to notify other litmags if one of your poems gets picked up. It might even motivate an editor to take a good hard look at the other poems in the batch, esp. if you are telling him/her that BIG GLOSSY REVIEW just took "Certified Work of Genius" for its next issue. I am sympathetic with editors who must face an immense volume of material since the advent of processed word; but from the other side: What percentage of the material printed in each issue of a highly visible periodical comes over the transom vs. being solicited?: Dear Mr. Collins, Congratulations on your appointment as Poet Laureate. Please favor our magazine with a few unpublished poems, etc... Finnegan From MillB at aol.com Tue Jun 26 19:22:29 2001 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 19:22:29 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Turnaround (long-winded and written quickly) Message-ID: <85.c3b54a5.286a7335@aol.com> Amber: Where do I start? In my mind, a "reasonable" turnaround time is two to four months; however, publishers vary. For example, Jack Grapes, editor of OntheBus (Poets Market) lists his response as "any time from two weeks to two years." Which stickes me as flippant and down-right rude. Journals that reply a few days after I submit work also cause me to be suspicious (did they read it?) and journals that take over six months make me wonder whether my work was misplaced or lost in transit. Certain editors, I feel, have earned the right to longer consideration time and a little slack. For example, when Mr Parisi kept my poems for nearly a year, I was honored. His charming follow-up letter about having "not forgotten me" because he'd been busy with his Index and web site and had taken his first vacation in "over two years" was heart-felt and written to me personally. Not an index-card, standard rejection. Stephen Corey (Georgia Review) also wrote me a gracious, two page response letter. As did David Huddle as guest "host" of The New England Review when editors misplaced my submission. Some writers send queries after a few months if there has been no response; I prefer to wait. Sounds kind of small-change, but I don't make a fortune: postage and competition fees add up. Here's what I do: I send out simultaneous submissions and hope for the best. In ten years, no one has ever accepted the same poem, and my work has appeared in about 40 different journals. Maybe I've been lucky? I just figure that it could be worse than having to deal with a double acceptance. I used to be more careful about multiple submissions, but, after hearing an urban legend about Raymond Carver, I changed my tune. Esquire and Playboy both published one of his short stories, during the same month (he'd sent out multiple submissions)--with the only difference being the title. This opinion of mine probably will not be popular. . .but what's the worst that could happen? What are the chances of an editor noticing the same poem in another journal? If it DOES get taken two places. Is anyone going to sue me? Black list me? Ask for contributor copies back? I'm careful with the larger-audience journals and pay respect as respect is due. Journals come and go, though. If it ever happens that the same poem is accepted in two places, I would just withdraw one from consideration. Now, I DO read poetry journals. I rotate subscriptions: Tampa Review, The New Yorker, Georgia Review, Gettysburg Review, Southern California Anthology, Witness, Madison. . .one year. . .and Harpers, Poetry, Hubbub, Laurel Review, American Poetry Review, Sewanee, Indiana Review, Iota the next. I go to conferences and bookfairs and buy sample copies. Not for marketing research purposes, but because I enjoy poetry. Cheers, Mill From MillB at aol.com Tue Jun 26 21:37:58 2001 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 21:37:58 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Turnaround Time Message-ID: <7f.16554d79.286a92f6@aol.com> In a message dated 6/26/01 4:16:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: << I've never understood how a mag that pays only contrib copies, or at best a paltry fee, can insist on anything other than courtesy from those who submit work. >> Here! Here! That's what I was trying to say in my long-winded posting. I mean, if a number one song (that generates millions of dollars) were "sold" to two record companies, there would be hell to pay, but. . .a poem that appears in a small literary magazine? I'm sure that ethics plays a part in the whole poetry submission process. So does respect and the reputation of the writers and the editors. . . but. . .there is a major difference between commercial things such screen plays, best selling novels and poetry: money. At last count, there were 2,000 journals listed in Poets Market; a writer could run the risk of being blackballed a few times for acting inappropriately by (horrors!) double submitting work once in a while. The philosophy or system I use (and I'm sure I'll be chastised for this) is that I classify journals into three rough categories: 1) The "A" list (journals with great editors, wonderful work, long-standing literary reputations). 2) The "B" list. Medium. (journals with solid reputations and work, but not The New Yorker--perhaps university or special-interest publications). 3) The "C" List. New journals. Publications with a small press run. Perhaps a student-run college journal, with instructors or grad students as guest editors. To the "A" List, I never double submit. I just cross my fingers and wish for miracles. I always send my best work. First. To the "B" and "C" lists, I double submit work and then--if it's taken by both, I withdraw my work from the "C" list. Of course there are journals that I'm fond of. Editors I admire. My rules are not set in stone; this is just a general idea of how I plan my submission process. I also tend to "sit with" my work for at least a year before sending it out. Anywhere. I feel that's only fair. If I can read and revise and live with it for that long and still believe in it enough to fold it, put it in an envelope and mail it, then I do. Cheers, Mill From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Jun 27 09:03:35 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 09:03:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Turnaround Time and Simultaneous Submissions (not long-winded) In-Reply-To: <20010626222239.93873.qmail@web12103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Just wondering--is there any other place in the "market" where buyers demand and get the right to take sole options on properties without paying to do so? Try buying a house that way. Hal "If the brain were so simple we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't.'' --Lyall Watson Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson > I'm with the other folk. Two to three months should be sufficient. I > only wait three months before sending the work elsewhere if I haven't > heard anything. I also lessen the frustration time by staying away > from those magazines whose high-handed inconsideration might results in > waits of six months or longer. Lately, the turnaround time for me has > been one year from writing a poem to seeing it in print. Electronic > publications, of course, are a lot faster. > > As for simultaneous submissions: I do that only with magazines who say > in print that they allow it. And they should all declare in print one > way or the other about that. > > - Jim From tadrichards at prodigy.net Wed Jun 27 09:53:11 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 09:53:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Turnaround Time and Simultaneous Submissions (not long-winded) References: Message-ID: <001f01c0ff10$8181c920$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Actually, this is true in the music business, too. I once had Hank Williams, Jr., put a "hold" on a song of mine -- which he ultimately never recorded -- and it meant that I couldn't send it to anyone else, and I didn't get paid for it. BUT....still a major difference. His putting a hold on it meant he had heard the song, liked it, and specifically intended to record it (it was for a blues duet album that never got off the ground). And, of course, if he had recorded it, the financial upside would have been a lot greater. And it can be true in the movie business. Sometimes a small independent producer will ask to option a script for no cash up front, and sometimes -- if you like the producer, and no one else is bidding on the property -- you'll do it. But again, that's not the same thing as -- I may read this six months from now, or a year from now -- or I may never read it -- and I probably won't like it -- but I want exclusive rights to it until I decide to get around to it. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 9:03 AM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Turnaround Time and Simultaneous Submissions (not long-winded) > Just wondering--is there any other place in the "market" where buyers > demand and get the right to take sole options on properties without > paying to do so? Try buying a house that way. > > Hal "If the brain were so simple we could understand it, > we would be so simple we couldn't.'' > --Lyall Watson > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson > > > > > I'm with the other folk. Two to three months should be sufficient. I > > only wait three months before sending the work elsewhere if I haven't > > heard anything. I also lessen the frustration time by staying away > > from those magazines whose high-handed inconsideration might results in > > waits of six months or longer. Lately, the turnaround time for me has > > been one year from writing a poem to seeing it in print. Electronic > > publications, of course, are a lot faster. > > > > As for simultaneous submissions: I do that only with magazines who say > > in print that they allow it. And they should all declare in print one > > way or the other about that. > > > > - Jim > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jun 27 10:01:22 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 10:01:22 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Turnaround (long-winded and written quickly) Message-ID: <85.c455d98.286b4132@aol.com> > Jack Grapes, editor of > OntheBus (Poets Market) lists his response as "any time from two weeks to > two > years." Which stickes me as flippant and down-right rude. ... > Certain editors, I feel, have earned the right to longer consideration time > and a little slack. For example, when Mr Parisi kept my poems for nearly a > year, I was honored. His charming follow-up letter about having "not > forgotten me" because he'd been busy with his Index and web site and had > taken his first vacation in "over two years" was heart-felt and written to > me > personally. Not an index-card, standard rejection. Stephen Corey (Georgia > Review) also wrote me a gracious, two page response letter. As did David > Huddle as guest "host" of The New England Review when editors misplaced my > submission. Millicent, I'd have trouble criticizing the editor of almost any small independent journal. I don't know Jack Grapes at all, but am I correct in saying ONTHEBUS is not affiliated with any university or a funded & staffed arts organization, nor does it have anything like the circulation & establishment behind POETRY? God bless Jack Grapes, or any litmag editor, without institutional funding and student staff to rely on, who can keep a literary magazine afloat beyond a couple issues.And rather than flippant or rude, he's probably being refreshingly honest when he says he might be sitting on your work for 2 years. I'd give my Here, Here!s to these independent cusses and the time and resources they've pissed away on their labors of love and on behalf of the literary lost cause of publishing poetry. Finnegan From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu Wed Jun 27 10:25:46 2001 From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Amber Prentiss) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 10:25:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vietnam War Poetry Message-ID: I had a thought and, for once, it didn't go away. Here's what it was: Hey, I want an anthology of Vietnam War poetry. So: Hey, I want an anthology of Vietnam War poetry. Know of any?(Specifically any good ones?) -Amber From anastasios at hell.com Wed Jun 27 10:34:24 2001 From: anastasios at hell.com (ANASTASIOS KOZAITIS) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 10:34:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vietnam War Poetry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010627103102.00a581e0@mail.verizon.net> At 10:25 AM 6/27/01, you wrote: >I had a thought and, for once, it didn't go away. Here's what it was: > >Hey, I want an anthology of Vietnam War poetry. > >So: Hey, I want an anthology of Vietnam War poetry. Know of >any?(Specifically any good ones?) > >-Amber >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Amber-- Check out the William Joiner Center for the Study of War and Social Consequences. http://omega.cc.umb.edu/~joiner/ They are publishing a great deal of literature -- Vietnam era work. For instance, Writing Between The Lines: An Anthology on War and Its Social Consequences. Editors: Kevin Bowen and Bruce Weigl Foreword by Denise Levertov An excellent compilation of poetry, short stories, essays, and novels excerpts from a group of top writers with ties to the Vietnam War. The Veteran (Vietnam Veterans of America) The William Joiner Center for the Study of War and Social consequences and the Creative Writing Program at the University of Massachusetts in Boston celebrated the tenth anniversary of its Writers' Workshop this June. In cooperation with the Joiner Center, the University of Massachusetts Press has published an anthology representing the Center's ongoing work. The poets, writers, anti-war and social activists included here have taught, given readings, and offered classes in the Workshop for the last ten years. What's extraordinary about this collection is not only the wide range of accomplished American and Hispanic writers but in particular the writings of many Vietnamese poets and novelists including writings taken from soldiers by American intelligence officers during what the Vietnamese call "the American war." These are among the most unforgettable writings in this immensely powerful anthology, much of which is available in translation here for the first time. Writing Between the Lines is an extraordinary mosaic of stories, poems, and journalism about lives marked by war, oppression, and senseless, indelible suffering. The anthology reaches across the borders of nationality, of difference, of culture to show not so much closure, but balance. The book is a moving effort at both speech and silence. The fact that all the royalties go to the Joiner Foundation's Outpatient Pediatric Clinic at Hue Central Hospital in Vietnam is reason enough to buy the book. Another reason is that it presents documents of Astonishing range, depth, and courage. All of these writings--and writers--deserve close reading. One piece has particular resonance: for the collection, for history, for the many, varied, unspeakable stories these documents tell. That is Lady Borton's nonfiction entry, "The House on Lotus Pond," which appears at the end of the "Going Back" section. It's from her 1995 book, After Sorrow. Borton, who worked as an American Friends Service Committee volunteer during the war, also assisted the Vietnamese boat people in 1980 and recently directed the Quaker Field Services in Vietnam. Here, she records the conversation between the American field worker and the people the United States government once considered "enemies." "Welcome to the Ho Chi Minh Trail!" The writer's friend Flower says ironically. Later, in badminton game with another associate who lost his wife and son in the war, the writer asks, "Uncle, can you ever forgive us?" Borton's final paragraph is as follows: "sometimes late at night I awaken from a recurring dream, where Americans and Vietnamese together pluck those fleshettes [sic] from earth and flesh, gathering them from the face of Vietnam and from the faces of Vietnamese. They lay the arrows side by side, end on end, until their flanges fuse into a span of steel strong enough to carry all the stories that separate us." The anthology is organized into sections that follow the chronology of catastrophe: "In country," "Aftermath," "Across Borders," "Going Back," and "Mountain and Rivers: Works from Viet Nam." A section on folk poetry follows the captured documents. Among the Vietnamese writers represented in the final part, Pham Tien Duat is one of the most highly respected poets in Vietnam; as noted in his biography, he "served as a soldier and poet along the Ho Chi Minh Trail for en years during the war." "The Alabaster Stork," Written by Tran Dang Khoa when he was eleven years old, is a particularly moving poem, beautifully translated by Fred Marchant and the poet. Another memorable work is the following, quoted in its entirety: NONATTACHMENT by Nguyen Ba Chung Let's gather every fragment of our memories It's all that we have at the end of our life Warring days and nights, showers of sun and rain What's left of love? Let's gather what remains of our memories It's all that we have at the close of our life Warring days and nights make us wonder Should the bundle we gather be empty or full? The title of the final poem in the book is by Nguyen Duy, translated by Kevin Bowen, is "A Small Song of Peace." That's what this book is, writ large. Ellen Davis in Harvard Review Mountain River Vietnamese Poetry From the Wars, 1948 - 1993 Edited by Kevin Bowen, Nguyen Ba Chung, and Bruce Weigl Introduction by Nguyen Ba Chung This powerful and moving bilingual collection affirms the importance of poetry in the formation and perpetuation of Vietnamese national identity. These poems testify to the centrality of war in Vietnamese history and experience over the past fifty years. Beginning with Ho Chi Minh in the 1940s and moving forward in time to Nguyen Quang Thieu in the 1990s, the book presents significant poetry reflecting the thoughts and feelings of the major Vietnamese writers, who lived through many years of war, first with the French and later with the Americans. Mountain River will serve as a valuable introductory survey of Vietnamese poetry written since World War II and as an example of the integral role of poets and poetry in Vietnamese culture. "Translation of poetry from Vietnamese to English presents difficult problems; these translations are among the best I've ever seen. The book will appeal to scholars and teachers in the fields of Viet Nam War studies, postcolonial literary studies, and Pacific Rim studies. It could easily be used as a course text, as well as provide important material for scholars. . . . A most useful and beautiful work." Renny Christopher, author of The Viet Nam War/The American War: Images and Representations in Euro-American and Vietnamese Exile Narratives. "The quality of the translations is excellent." Ngo Nhu Binh, Harvard University. Kevin Bowen is director of the William Joiner Center for the Study of War and Social consequences at the University of Massachusetts Press, 1997). Nguyen Ba Chung is an associate of the Joiner Center and cotranslator of A Time Far Past. Bruce Weigl is professor of English at Pennsylvania State University and cotranslator of Poems from Captured Documents (University of Massachusetts Press, 1994), a collection of Vietnamese soldiers' poetry. --Ak -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu Wed Jun 27 12:04:55 2001 From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Amber Prentiss) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 12:04:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] While I'm wishlisting - Message-ID: Anyone know of a good anthology of nursery rhymes? -Amber From johnbrehm at mindspring.com Wed Jun 27 12:08:46 2001 From: johnbrehm at mindspring.com (john brehm) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 12:08:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vietnam War Poetry References: Message-ID: <003a01c0ff23$73358740$2819f7a5@oemcomputer> Amber, You might want to look at Yusef Kommunyakaa's Dien Cai Dau, about his experiences in Viet Nam. A terrific book. John Brehm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amber Prentiss" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 10:25 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Vietnam War Poetry > I had a thought and, for once, it didn't go away. Here's what it was: > > Hey, I want an anthology of Vietnam War poetry. > > So: Hey, I want an anthology of Vietnam War poetry. Know of > any?(Specifically any good ones?) > > -Amber > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jdavis at panix.com Wed Jun 27 12:21:42 2001 From: jdavis at panix.com (Jordan Davis) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 12:21:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Vietnam War Poetry In-Reply-To: <003a01c0ff23$73358740$2819f7a5@oemcomputer> Message-ID: Don't forget Michael Casey's Obscenities. Jordan Davis From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Jun 27 12:24:54 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 12:24:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] While I'm wishlisting - In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Anyone know of a good anthology of nursery rhymes? > -Amber Isn't RLS's *A Child's Garden of Verses* still around? Hal "Between the manifold splendors of anger, I watch a door slam like the corsage of a flower or the erasers of schoolchildren." --Andre Breton Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jun 27 12:40:26 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 12:40:26 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Vietnam War Poetry Message-ID: Also, The Moon Reflected Fire (Alice James Books) by Doug Anderson...who in fact is teaching at the Joiner Center this week. Finnegan From JBCM2 at aol.com Wed Jun 27 12:50:41 2001 From: JBCM2 at aol.com (JBCM2 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 12:50:41 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Vietnam War Poetry Message-ID: In a message dated 06/27/2001 10:24:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, aprentiss at agnesscott.edu writes: << I had a thought and, for once, it didn't go away. Here's what it was: Hey, I want an anthology of Vietnam War poetry. So: Hey, I want an anthology of Vietnam War poetry. Know of any?(Specifically any good ones?) -Amber >> Vietnam War Poetry A Selected Bibliography Anderson Maggie and Alex Gildzen, eds. A Gathering of Poets. Kent, Ohio: Kent State University Press, 1992. Baker, Richard E. Shell Burst Pond. Tacoma, Wash.: Rapier Press, 1980. Balaban, John. After Our War. Pittsburgh: University of Pittsburgh Press, 1974. _____. Vietnam Poems. Oxford: Carcanet Press, 1970. Barr, John. The War Zone. Easthampton, Mass.: Warwick Press, 1989. Barry, Jan. Veterans Day. Montclair, N.J.: East River Anthology, 1983. _____. War Baby. Montclair, N.J.: East River Anthology, 1983. _____, ed. Peace Is Our Profession: Poems and Passages of War Protest. Montclair, N.J.: East River Anthology, 1981. Barry, Jan, and W. D. Ehrhart, eds. Demilitarized Zones: Veterans After Vietnam. Perkasie, Pa.: East River Anthology, 1976. Barth, Robert L. Forced Marching for the Styx: Vietnam War Poems. Van Nuys, Calif.: Perivale Press, 1983. _____. Simonides in Vietnam. Santa Barbara, Calif.: John Daniel, 1990. _____. A Soldier's Time: Vietnam War Poems. Santa Barbara, Calif.: John Daniel, 1987. Barton, Peter. Little Tri and Power. Saturday Review v. 52 (July 26, 1969):52. Bauer, Bill. The Eye of the Ghost: Vietnam Poems. Kansas City, Mo.: BkMk Press/University of Missouri Kansas City, 1986. _____. Last Lambs: New and Selected Poems of Vietnam. Kansas City, Mo.: BkMk Press, 1997. Berrigan, Daniel. Night Flight to Hanoi: War Diary with 11 Poems. New York: Macmillan, 1968. Berry, D. C. saigon cemetery. Athens: University of Georgia Press, 1972. Bingaman, H. W. Reckonings: Stories of the Air War Over North Vietnam. New York: Vantage, 1988. Bly, Robert. The Light Around the Body. New York: Harper & Row, 1967. _____. The Teeth-Mother Naked at Last. San Francisco: City Lights, 1970. Bly, Robert, and David Ray, eds. A Poetry Reading Against the Vietnam War. Madison, Minn.: American Writers Against the Vietnam War, 1966. Bowen, Kevin, Nguyen Ba Chung, and Bruce Weigl, eds. Mountain River: Vietnamese Poetry from the Wars, 1948-1993. Amherst, University of Massachusetts Press, 1998. Cantwell, James M. Highway Number One: A Vietnamese Odyssey in Verse. Smithtown, N.Y.: Exposition Press, 1980. Carlson, R. S. "Was That Someplace You Were?": Selected Poems 1968-1987. Genre v. 21, no. 4 (Winter, 1988):553-577. Caron, D. Phillip. Eagles and Other Prey: A Vietnam Experience in Prose and Poetry. Memphis: Volunteer Publications, 1989. Casey, Michael. Obscenities. New Haven, Conn.: Yale University Press, 1972. Chagnon, Jacquelyn, and Don Luce, eds. Of Quiet Courage: Poems from Vietnam. Washington, D.C.: Indochina Mobile Education Project, 1974. Cross, Frank A. Reminders. Big Timber, Mont.: Seven Buffaloes Press, 1986. Curry, Richard. Crossing Over: A Vietnam Journal. Cambridge, Mass.: Apple-wood Press, 1980. Di Prima, Diane, ed. War Poems. New York: Poets Press, 1968. Drinkard, Tom. Finding the Way Home: Vietnam and the Aftermath: Poems of the War. Langston, Ala.: Blue Heron Press, 1989. Eastlake, William. A Child's Garden of Verses for the Revolution. New York: Grove Press, 1970. Ehrhart, W. D. The Awkward Silence. Stafford, Va.: Northwoods Press, 1980. _____. Carrying the Darkness: American Indochina: The Poetry of the Vietnam War. New York: Avon, 1985. _____. A Generation of Peace. New York: New Voices, 1975. _____. To Those Who Have Gone Home Tired: New and Selected Poems. New York: Thunder's Mouth Press, 1984. _____, ed. Carrying the Darkness: American Indochina: The Poetry of the Vietnam War. New York: Avon, 1985. _____, ed. Unaccustomed Mercy: Soldier-Poets of the Vietnam War. Lubbock, Tex.: Texas Tech University Press, 1989. Floyd, Bryan. The Long War Dead: An Epiphany. 1st Platoon, U.S.M.C. New York: Avon, 1976. Grollmes, Eugene E. At the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, Washington, D.C.: Between the Lines. Washington, D. C.: Friends of the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, 1988. Hamilton, Fritz. A Father at a Soldier's Grave. New York: Downtown Poets, 1980. Hansen, J. Vincent. Blessed Are the Piecemakers: A Collection of Poems and Uncertain Notions. St. Cloud, Minn.: North Star Press of St. Cloud, 1989. Hollis, Jocelyn. Collected Vietnam Poems and Other Poems. Philadelphia: American Poetry and Literature, 1986. _____. Poems of the Vietnam War. Philadelphia: American Poetry and Literature Press, 1985. _____. Vietnam Poems: The War Poems of Today. New York: American Poetry Press, 1979. _____. Vietnam Poems II: The War Poems of Today; A New Collection. Philadelphia: American Poetry Press, 1983. Jaeger, Lowell. War on War. Logan, Utah: Utah State University Press, 1988. Jordan, William Reynier. In the Darkness and the Shadows. Philadelphia: Dorrance, 1975. Komunyakaa, Yusef. Dien Cai Dau. Middletown, Conn.: Wesleyan University Press, 1988. Larson, Wendy Wilder and Tran Thi Nga. Shallow Graves: Two Women and Vietnam. New York: Random House, 1986. Layne, McAvoy. How Audie Murphy Died in Vietnam. Garden City, N.Y.: Anchor, 1973. Le, Nancylee. Duckling in a Thunderstorm. Colorado Springs: Rong-Tien Publishing, 1983. Levertov, Denise. The Freeing of the Dust. New York: New Directions, 1975. _____. Poems, 1960-1967. New York: New Directions, 1966. _____. To Stay Alive. New York: New Directions, 1971. Lliteras, D. S. In a Warrior's Romance. Norfolk, Va.: Hampton Roads Publishing Company, 1991. Lowenfels, Walter, ed. Where is Vietnam? American Poets Respond. Garden City, N.Y.: Anchor, 1967. _____. Writing on the Wall: 108 American Poems of Protest. Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday, 1969. Luce, Don, John C. Schafer, and Jacqueline Chagnon, comps. We Promise One Another: Poems from an Asian War. Washington, D.C.: Indochina Mobile Education Project, 1971. McCarthy, Gerald. War Story: Vietnam War Poems. Trumansburg, N.Y.: Crossing Press, 1977. McDonald, Walter. After the Noise of Saigon. Amherst: University of Massachusetts Press, 1988. _____. Caliban in Blue and Other Poems. Lubbock: Texas Tech Press, 1976. _____. Night Landings. New York: Harper & Row, 1989. McGovern, Robert and Richard Syder, eds. 70 on the 70's: A Decade's History in Verse. Ashland, Ohio: Ashland Poetry Press, 1981. _____. 60 on the 60's: A Decade's History in Verse. Ashland, Ohio: Ashland Poetry Press, 1970. Mahoney, Philip. From Both Sides Now: The Poetry of the Vietnam War and Its Aftermath. New York: Scribners, 1998. Martin, Earl E. A Poet Goes to War. Bozeman: Big Sky Books, Montana State University, 1970. Mason, Steve. The Human Being: A Warrior's Journey Toward Peace and Mutual Healing. New York: Simon & Schuster, 1990. _____. Johnny's Song. New York: Bantam, 1986. _____. Warrior for Peace. New York: Simon and Schuster, 1988. Moore, Daniel. Burnt Heart: Ode to the War Dead. San Francisco: City Lights, 1971. Nemerov, Howard. War Stories: Poems About Long Ago and Now. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1987. Nguyen Ngoc Bich. War Poems From the Vietnamese. Hudson Review v.20, # 3 (Autumn 1967):361-68. Nguyen Thanh T. and Bruce Weigl. Poems from Captured Documents. Amherst, Mass.: University of Massachusettes Press, 1994. Nhat Hanh, Tich. The Cry of Vietnam. Santa Barbara, Calif.: Unicorn Press, 1968. _____. The Viet Nam: Poems. Santa Barbara, Calif.: Unicorn Press, 1967. Oldham, Perry. Vinh Long. Meadows of Dan, Va.: Northwoods Press, 1976. Philip, Neil, ed. War and the Pity of War. New York: Clarion, 1998. Poetry Against the War. Poetry Magazine v. 70, # 6 (September 1972):319-65. Poetry of the Anti-War. Nation v. 206, #23 ( June 3, 1968):738-39. Poetry of the Read-in Campaign. Nation v.202, #22 (May 30, 1066):653-55. Rawlings, Doug. Survivor's Manual. Samisdat v. 30, # 4 (1982). Richman, Elliot. A Bucket of Nails: Poems from the Second Indochina War. Samisdat v. 55, #4, (1990). Robertssen, Lowell. Remembering the Women of the Vietnam War. Eden Prairie, Minn.: Tessera Publishing, 1990. Rottmann, Larry. Voices From the Ho Chi Minh Trail: Poetry of America and Vietnam, 1965-1993. Desert Hot Springs, Calif.: Event Horizon Press, 1993. Rottmann, Larry, Jan Barry, and Basil T. Paquet, eds. Winning Hearts and Minds: War Poems by Vietnam Veterans. Brooklyn, N.Y.: 1st Casualty Press, 1972. Sinke, Ralph, E. G., Jr. Don't Cry for Us. Dale City, Va.: REGS Enterprises, 1984. Sonenberg, Jack, ed. Artists and Writers Protest Against the War in Viet Nam: Poems. New York: Profile Press, 1967. Stallworthy, Jon, ed. The Oxford Book of War Poetry. New York: Oxford University Press, 1984. Steptoe, Lamont B. Mad Minute. Camden, N.J.: Whirlwind Press, 1990. Topham, J., ed. Vietnam Heroes: A Tribute--An Anthology of Poems by Veterans and Their Friends. Claymont, Del.: American Poetry Press, 1982. _____. Vietnam Heroes II: The Tears of a Generation. New York: American Poetry Press, 1982. _____. Vietnam Heroes III: That We Have Peace--An Anthology of Poems by Veterans of Vietnam. Philadelphia: American Poetry Press, 1983. _____. Vietnam Heroes IV: The Long Ascending Cry--Memories and Recollections in Story and Poem by Vietnam Veterans. Philadelphia: American Poetry Press, 1985. Ulisse, Peter. Vietnam Voices. Lewiston, N.Y.: Edwin Mellen Press, 1991. Van Devanter, Lynda and Joan A. Furey, eds. Visions of War, Dreams of Peace: Writings of Women in the Vietnam War. New York: Warner Books, 1991. War: Poetic Impressions. Christian Century v. 85, #13 (March 27, 1968):382-83. Watermark: Vietnamese American Poetry & Prose. New York: Asian American Writers' Workshop, 1998. Weigl, Bruce. The Monkey Wars. Athens: University of Georgia Press, 1985. _____. A Romance. Pittsburgh: University of Pittsburgh Press, 1979. _____. Song of Napalm. New York: Atlantic Monthly Press, 1988. For additional information, see Wittman, Sandra. Writing About Vietnam: A Bibliography of the Literature of the Vietnam Conflict. Boston: G. K. Hall, 1989. From JforJames at aol.com Wed Jun 27 13:05:41 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 13:05:41 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Academy Message-ID: Friday June 22 10:56 AM ET Poetry Academy Opens in Italy VERONA, Italy (AP) - The World Academy of Poetry, a new institution dedicated to the promotion of poetry around the globe, opens Friday in the Italian city best known for its star-crossed lovers, Romeo and Juliet. Among those expected to take part in the inauguration ceremonies were Wole Soyinka of Nigeria, who won the 1986 Nobel Prize for Literature, and 50 other literary greats. They will take part in concerts and readings around Verona this weekend to celebrate the new academy. The academy will sponsor poetry contests and readings, publish a magazine and produce television broadcasts on prominent members of the institution, the Italian news agency ANSA said. The northeastern city of Verona, chosen by Shakespeare for his tragic love story ``Romeo and Juliet,'' already is home to the International Institute for Opera and Poetry, which was established by UNESCO From lgraham at stimson.org Tue Jun 26 14:29:37 2001 From: lgraham at stimson.org (K. Lorraine Graham) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 14:29:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Turnaround Time and Simultaneous Submissions (not long-winded) Message-ID: There's also a list at the EPC of print & electronic mags: http://epc.buffalo.edu/mags/ -Lorraine Graham From tsummerl at schreiner.edu Tue Jun 26 17:23:02 2001 From: tsummerl at schreiner.edu (Summerlin, Tim) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 16:23:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Daily Message-ID: Wait-- you aren't Wesley McNair. He is the poet of the day that I found today. CTS -----Original Message----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com [mailto:Rsgwynn1 at cs.com] Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 11:38 AM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Daily A reminder: tomorrow's a big day here: Poetry Daily http://www.poems.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From archambeau at hermes.lfc.edu Wed Jun 27 12:17:31 2001 From: archambeau at hermes.lfc.edu (Robert Archambeau) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 11:17:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] ANTI-LAUEREATE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA Message-ID: <3B3A071B.E7A9F8B8@lfc.edu> Okay, folks, I'm taking this Anti-Laureate idea global. In the tradition of the Russian Belyi prize for unrecognized literature, the award will take the form of one bottle of vodka, along with an announcement of the winner in this summer's edition of Samizdat (which features Michael Heller and Belgian Surrealism). Add to that the possible printing of a limited edition chapbook by the winner from Samizdat Editions. Send your nominations to me at archambeau at lfc.edu until July 3, and I'll annouce the winner of the first Anti-Laureate competion to the list on July 4th. (cross-post from the Buffalo Poetics list) All poets are eligible (non-US poets too), except those with Iowa MFAs, Pulitzer Prizes, or strong personal ties to Helen Vendler. Nominees so far are: John M. Bennett Karl Kempton Will Inman Alan Sondheim Ron Silliman Kathy Ernst Richard Kostelanetz Alice Notley and (my nominee) Pierre Joris (who has the added alure of being from Luxembourg, a country grossly underrepresented among U.S. Poets Laureate). From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Jun 27 13:41:31 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 13:41:31 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Daily Message-ID: <8d.88f1c36.286b74cb@cs.com> In a message dated 6/27/01 12:23:57 PM Central Daylight Time, tsummerl at schreiner.edu writes: > > > > > > Wait-- you aren't Wesley McNair. He is the poet of the day that I found > today. CTS > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com [mailto:Rsgwynn1 at cs.com] >> Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2001 11:38 AM >> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Daily >> >> >> A reminder: tomorrow's a big day here: >> >> Poetry Daily >> http://www.poems.com > That was 25 June. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From DICK at watson.ibm.com Wed Jun 27 13:38:16 2001 From: DICK at watson.ibm.com (DICK at watson.ibm.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 01 13:38:16 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] thoughts going away Message-ID: <200106271741.NAA24498@sp1n189at0.watson.ibm.com> Amber wrote: >> >>I had a thought and, for once, it didn't go away. Here's what it was: >> You've got to expect more of that, Amber, now that you've passed your 20th :-) Richard From anastasios at hell.com Wed Jun 27 13:49:26 2001 From: anastasios at hell.com (ANASTASIOS KOZAITIS) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 13:49:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] ANTI-LAUEREATE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA In-Reply-To: <3B3A071B.E7A9F8B8@lfc.edu> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010627134915.00a54b20@mail.verizon.net> I nominate JAY WRIGHT At 12:17 PM 6/27/01, Robert Archambeau wrote: >Okay, folks, I'm taking this Anti-Laureate idea global. > >In the tradition of the Russian Belyi prize for unrecognized literature, > >the award will take the >form of one bottle of vodka, along with an announcement of the winner in > >this summer's edition >of Samizdat (which features Michael Heller and Belgian Surrealism). > >Add to that the possible printing of a limited edition chapbook by the >winner from Samizdat Editions. > >Send your nominations to me at archambeau at lfc.edu until July 3, and I'll > >annouce the winner >of the first Anti-Laureate competion to the list on July 4th. > >(cross-post from the Buffalo Poetics list) > > >All poets are eligible (non-US poets too), except those with Iowa MFAs, >Pulitzer Prizes, or >strong personal ties to Helen Vendler. > >Nominees so far are: > > >John M. Bennett > >Karl Kempton > >Will Inman > >Alan Sondheim > >Ron Silliman > >Kathy Ernst > >Richard Kostelanetz > >Alice Notley > >and (my nominee) Pierre Joris > >(who has the added alure of being from Luxembourg, a country >grossly underrepresented among U.S. Poets Laureate). > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From artwords at idirect.com Wed Jun 27 15:42:20 2001 From: artwords at idirect.com (Tanya Adele Koehnke) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:42:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] While I'm wishlisting - Message-ID: <3B3A371C.57CC@idirect.com> > Isn't RLS's *A Child's Garden of Verses* still around? > > Hal Dear Halvard, Earlier this year, I inherited from my late great-grandmother a soft, leather-bound book which contains Robert Louis Stevenson's _A Child's Garden of Verses_. Fortunately, this delightful book *is* still around--in fact, I just read from it one of my favourite lyrics which I hope you likewise enjoy: PICTURE-BOOKS IN WINTER. Summer fading, winter comes-- Frosty mornings, tingling thumbs, Window robins, winter rooks, And the picture story-books. Water now is turned to stone Nurse and I can walk upon; Still we find the flowing brooks In the picture story-books. All the pretty things put by, Wait upon the children's eye, Sheep and shepherds, trees and crooks, In the picture story-books. We may see how all things are, Seas and cities, near and far, And the flying fairies' looks, In the picture story-books. How am I to sing your praise, Happy chimney-corner days, Sitting safe in nursery nooks, Reading picture story-books? Stevenson, Robert Louis. "Picture-Books In Winter." _ A Child's Garden of Verses_. _The Works of Robert Louis Stevenson_ (Vol. VI). New York: Thomas Nelson and Sons (date not provided). 30. --------------------------------- Sincerely, Tanya Adele Koehnke From anastasios at hell.com Wed Jun 27 14:40:56 2001 From: anastasios at hell.com (ANASTASIOS KOZAITIS) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:40:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] POETICAL CORRECTNESS In-Reply-To: <3B3A371C.57CC@idirect.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010627143958.00a5b5f0@mail.verizon.net> Has anyone read this, yet? ====================================== POETICAL CORRECTNESS American fiction may be big, but the poetry is pitiful. Michael Lind applauds the range of British verse and finds in Dana Gioia a rare American talent. At the beginning of the 21st century, the contrast between the relative health of poetry in Britain and its dire condition in the US is striking. In Britain, the Poet Laureate is known if not always respected and the selection of the Professor of Poetry at Oxford makes the newspapers; in the US, nobody can tell you the name of the Poet Laureate (answer: Stanley Kunitz). The best British poets, such as Seamus Heaney, James Fenton, Charles Causley, Tony Harrison and Wendy Cope, use traditional verse techniques in innovative ways to write about a range of subjects in a variety of genres, including political satire and light verse. In the US, by contrast, almost all of the prestige poetry is written in the early 20th-century mode of "free verse"--that is to say, lines of prose chopped up at arbitrary points--and almost all of it consists of relatively short poems, usually a domestic epiphany or a description of a scene or item as its subject. Hardly anyone writes poetry in the US other than professors--and hardly anybody reads it, other than the professors who write it. The collapse of American poetry into the black hole of academic obscurity is a process that has been occurring for half a century. As recently as the 1920s and 1930s, poets like Robert Frost and Robinson Jeffers were celebrities. Edna St Vincent Millay had her own radio programme. The book-length narrative poems of Edwin Arlington Robinson and Stephen Vincent Benet were bestsellers. Between the wars, as in the 19th century, American poets were more likely to be journalists, men of letters, or even public figures than professors--John Quincy Adams, the sixth president, translated Horace. All of this changed when a gang of professors hijacked American poetry. TS Eliot and Ezra Pound--two expatriate Americans with PhDs--inspired several generations of literary intellectuals to believe that, in Eliot's words, "poets in our civilisation, as it exists at present, must be difficult." Their idea of difficulty was baffling readers with untranslated bits of Sanskrit (Eliot) and Mandarin Chinese (Pound) and writing poems that could not be read, only deciphered, sometimes with the help of footnotes like those the author appended to The Waste Land. This was new. Greek and Roman and Renaissance poets, like those of the 18th century and the Victorian period, had sometimes used allusions that would baffle the ignorant, but they counted on being understood by educated contemporaries. Even the Alexandrians of Ptolemy's Egypt, like Callimachus, who have come to symbolise mandarinism in art, wrote poetry that courtiers and generals of the Hellenistic era with a basic liberal education could appreciate. But Eliot and Pound were alienated even from the elite of their era in a way that Virgil and Dante and Shakespeare and Goethe and Tennyson had not been. The two expatriates wanted a coterie art that would ward off the uninitiated because they detested modern, mass, democratic civilisation. Eliot, an admirer of the French authoritarian ideologue Charles Maurras, famously declared his support for Anglo-Catholicism, classicism and royalism, while Pound made radio broadcasts during the second world war on behalf of Mussolini and Hitler. Both men vilified Jews in their poetry; Eliot also treated the Irish as the exemplary subhumans of the democratic age (Sweeney Erect). After the first world war, the esoteric right-wing modernism of Eliot and Pound found enthusiasts among the "southern fugitives," a group of reactionary professors of literature centered at Vanderbilt University in Nashville. After spending the 1930s writing polemics on agrarian economics and white supremacy, the wiser fugitives like Robert Penn Warren and Allen Tate metamorphosed into purely literary figures. In this capacity, they and allies like Cleanth Brooks moved north and conquered the Ivy League English departments in the 1940s and 1950s, spreading the gospel of Eliotic/Maurassien coterie culture. Oddly enough, these missionaries of aristocratic reaction found allies among many Jewish Trotskyist intellectuals, who equated popular art of any kind with the crude MassCult of their rivals, the Stalinists of the popular front era. Writing in 1971, the poet Kenneth Rexroth spoke of "the highly select Trotskyite-Southern Agrarian Establishment." Rexroth summarises the fate of US poetry after 1945: "Within a very short time after the second world war, all but a few American poets of any reputation had been recruited into the universities. Every college in the land competed with every other to catch a 'poet in residence.'" The Babylonian captivity of poetry on the American campus has been prolonged by the explosion of "creative-writing" programmes, each of which offers an MFA (Master of Fine Arts) in novel-writing, short-story writing or poetry-writing. Most of the products of these programmes are mediocre, but this has not prevented patiently networking MFAs from capturing the institutional power bases of what remains of "serious literature" in the US, where they use their connections to puff their allies and deride their rivals. The feuding MFAs are probably no more vicious than the court poets around Maecenas or Elizabeth I, and rivalry among artists can produce great art. Not, alas, in this case. The reason is that the MFA programmes were founded at the moment that the most prestigious American poets completely abandoned writing metrical verse (that is to say, verse) in favour of free verse (that is to say, prose). The first disciples of Eliot and Pound in the American professoriate, the so-called "academic formalists" of the mid-20th century, had followed their gurus in favouring an elite coterie art, but they had not imitated Old Possum and Ez in abandoning metrical verse. Instead, in their own poetry, they followed WH Auden, a virtuoso of almost every verse technique. The influence of Auden can be seen in the attention to craft in the work of the best mid-century academic formalists, James Merrill and Richard Wilbur. But then in the 1960s, Robert Lowell, the most famous though not the best American poet of the day, told the Paris Review: "I couldn't get any experience into tight metrical forms... Prose is in many ways better off than poetry." It is difficult to imagine Frost, or Tennyson, declaring that, gosh, writing good verse is just too hard, or being taken seriously if he had. But Lowell's abandonment of verse for chopped-up prose at the height of his ephemeral fame legitimated free verse for countless American poets who had never mastered the difficult craft of prosody. Thanks to their influence, several generations of American poets who cannot tell the difference between a heroic quatrain and an Alcaic stanza have convinced themselves that they are poets. By the 1950s, then, academic coterie poetry had driven out accessible poetry in the US, and by the 1970s, in a palace coup limited to the campus, free verse had defeated academic formalist verse. The last third of the 20th century saw a succession of short-lived schools--Black Mountain, Deep Image, LANGUAGE poetry--each of which consisted of a handful of professors advertising their wares with manifestos, using the ritualised language of aesthetic revolution inherited from the avant-garde of the first world war era. Under any label, the would-be revolutionary professor-poets all write pretty much the same kind of brief random descriptions and meditations in the same kind of amputated prose. This history explains how it is that John Ashbery and Jorie Graham, professors both, came to be the most celebrated poets in the US today. Ashbery, who began as a sprig from the tree of Auden, writes rambling, surreal monologues. The work of Ashbery and Graham illustrates the observation of the late Australian poet AD Hope that in "present day America and in much of the world beside, the poet feels no obligation to his reader. He believes either that he is a sort of dark oracle or that he has no contract to communicate." As a result, Hope said, "the rest of the world treats their poetry as a trivial game." Inevitably, a reaction has set in against the mass-produced free verse of the professor-poets. In the 1970s and 1980s, a number of younger poets and critics began defying orthodoxy and writing in the meters and rhyme schemes which the academic authorities had proscribed. By the 1990s the "new formalists," as they were called, had two goals: to expand the audience of poetry beyond the universities, and to revive and renew the metrical techniques that had been discarded. Although verse narratives by Vikram Seth (The Golden Gate, 1986), Frederick Turner (The New World, 1985) and myself (The Alamo, 1997) sold better than most literary novels, the project of winning back the audience of fiction in prose, to fiction and drama in verse, has not yet succeeded. The efforts of the poetry establishment to win back readers have also failed, in spite of "poetry on the subways" and readings from "cowboy poets" on National Public Radio. So far the new formalists have produced more manifestoes than masterpieces, and the movement may degenerate into another academic clique (almost all of them, like their rivals, make their living by teaching creative writing or literature). Even so, movements are remembered for the handful of geniuses they produce, rather than for the mediocrities. By general consent the leading figure of the new formalism is Dana Gioia, who is a very considerable poet indeed. Gioia, who recently turned 50, should not be a poet at all, by the standards of the academic world. Before retiring in his forties to devote himself to literature, he had a successful career in business, becoming a vice-president of General Foods; he is happily married; he has no history of confinement in asylums, and is not a victim of substance abuse; he does not even own a black turtleneck sweater of the kind that authentic poets wear when posing for photographs. He earned the collective enmity of the creative-writing industry when he wittily vivisected it in a widely-read 1989 essay in the Atlantic Monthly, "Can Poetry Matter?" For the last decade, the professor-poets have avenged themselves by alternately pretending that he does not exist and denouncing him. Although Gioia is one of the few American poets whose books sell, a few years ago the MFA apparat ensured that his name was left off the invitation list to a White House conclave on poetry. But to the horror, no doubt, of the free-verse establishment's tenured representatives, the only contemporary poet whom First Lady Hillary Clinton quoted was Dana Gioia. But the snubs do not matter, because Gioia's reputation as a poet and a critic has grown by word of mouth. This year has seen the publication of his third collection of poems, Interrogations at Noon, and of his libretto for the composer Alva Henderson's opera, Nosferatu. Gioia is considered a slow writer by members of the campus poetry subculture who crank out a new collection of poems every year or so (it's easy to be prolific when your lines don't scan or rhyme). The accumulating size of Gioia's oeuvre, however, is as impressive as its diversity. In addition to three collections of lyric poetry and the libretto, Gioia has translated Seneca, Eugenio Montale and other Italian authors (Gioia, a Californian by heritage, is of Italian and Mexican descent). His lyric poems have been set to music by dozens of composers. This matters because, in the words of the critic Gary Taylor: "Genre is itself important because different genres usually deal, in different styles, with different topics and materials, and so the mastery of more genres implies a greater variety of human stuff." Interrogations at Noon demonstrates that Gioia has a range matched in contemporary poetry in English only by James Fenton. Gioia, who studied at Harvard with Elizabeth Bishop and Robert Fitzgerald, can be as coyly allusive as the late James Merrill, in "Elegy with Surrealist Proverbs as Refrain." But he can also turn to satire in "The Archbishop," subtitled "For a famous critic," and then again to a nature idyll of Goethean simplicity and strangeness in "The End of the World." This haunting poem concludes: "I stood at the edge where the mist ascended,/ My journey done where the world ended./I looked downstream. There was nothing but sky,/ The sound of the water, and the water's reply." Unlike so many of his contemporaries, Gioia has avoided creating a niche for himself by adopting a single, predictable style or set of subjects. But if there were typically "Gioian" poems, they would be the lyrics in which the subject is the wistful erotic longing of personae who are beyond youth but not yet old. One poem in this vein, "Summer Storm," is already well-known: "We stood on the rented patio/While the party went on inside./You knew the groom from college./I was a friend of the bride./We hugged the brownstone wall behind us/To keep our dress clothes dry/And watched the sudden summer storm/Floodlit against the sky." Critics of poetry such as this complain that it is akin to popular song. Those critics concede far more than they intend to. American popular music has conquered the world precisely because it unites the straightforward evocation of sentiments that our cynical intellectuals deride with the meter and rhyme that make language dance. In the work of Dana Gioia, American poetry dances as it has not danced for a long time. Michael Lind is a journalist, poet and novelist who lives in Washington DC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From TerryP17 at aol.com Wed Jun 27 14:58:20 2001 From: TerryP17 at aol.com (TerryP17 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:58:20 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: ANTI-LAUEREATE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA Message-ID: <28.175109d8.286b86cc@aol.com> Gosh, did everyone forget the incomparable Lyn Lifshin? Though I did appreciate mention of Kostelanetz who darkens my mailbox about 3x per year with usually the same article. Re: Lind's piece, just accessed it this morning on the Web. Michael is a friend of mine who tends to be a bit outspoken. Interesting piece indeed, but I think I'll just lurk and see what happens on this. --Terry From tadrichards at prodigy.net Wed Jun 27 15:00:06 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 15:00:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] POETICAL CORRECTNESS References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010627143958.00a5b5f0@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: <014101c0ff3b$61caae00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Hard to make a strong case for the idea that Lowell wrote free verse because he wasn't skilled enough to manage form. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: ANASTASIOS KOZAITIS To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 2:40 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] POETICAL CORRECTNESS Has anyone read this, yet? ====================================== POETICAL CORRECTNESS American fiction may be big, but the poetry is pitiful. Michael Lind applauds the range of British verse and finds in Dana Gioia a rare American talent. At the beginning of the 21st century, the contrast between the relative health of poetry in Britain and its dire condition in the US is striking. In Britain, the Poet Laureate is known if not always respected and the selection of the Professor of Poetry at Oxford makes the newspapers; in the US, nobody can tell you the name of the Poet Laureate (answer: Stanley Kunitz). The best British poets, such as Seamus Heaney, James Fenton, Charles Causley, Tony Harrison and Wendy Cope, use traditional verse techniques in innovative ways to write about a range of subjects in a variety of genres, including political satire and light verse. In the US, by contrast, almost all of the prestige poetry is written in the early 20th-century mode of "free verse"--that is to say, lines of prose chopped up at arbitrary points--and almost all of it consists of relatively short poems, usually a domestic epiphany or a description of a scene or item as its subject. Hardly anyone writes poetry in the US other than professors--and hardly anybody reads it, other than the professors who write it. The collapse of American poetry into the black hole of academic obscurity is a process that has been occurring for half a century. As recently as the 1920s and 1930s, poets like Robert Frost and Robinson Jeffers were celebrities. Edna St Vincent Millay had her own radio programme. The book-length narrative poems of Edwin Arlington Robinson and Stephen Vincent Benet were bestsellers. Between the wars, as in the 19th century, American poets were more likely to be journalists, men of letters, or even public figures than professors--John Quincy Adams, the sixth president, translated Horace. All of this changed when a gang of professors hijacked American poetry. TS Eliot and Ezra Pound--two expatriate Americans with PhDs--inspired several generations of literary intellectuals to believe that, in Eliot's words, "poets in our civilisation, as it exists at present, must be difficult." Their idea of difficulty was baffling readers with untranslated bits of Sanskrit (Eliot) and Mandarin Chinese (Pound) and writing poems that could not be read, only deciphered, sometimes with the help of footnotes like those the author appended to The Waste Land. This was new. Greek and Roman and Renaissance poets, like those of the 18th century and the Victorian period, had sometimes used allusions that would baffle the ignorant, but they counted on being understood by educated contemporaries. Even the Alexandrians of Ptolemy's Egypt, like Callimachus, who have come to symbolise mandarinism in art, wrote poetry that courtiers and generals of the Hellenistic era with a basic liberal education could appreciate. But Eliot and Pound were alienated even from the elite of their era in a way that Virgil and Dante and Shakespeare and Goethe and Tennyson had not been. The two expatriates wanted a coterie art that would ward off the uninitiated because they detested modern, mass, democratic civilisation. Eliot, an admirer of the French authoritarian ideologue Charles Maurras, famously declared his support for Anglo-Catholicism, classicism and royalism, while Pound made radio broadcasts during the second world war on behalf of Mussolini and Hitler. Both men vilified Jews in their poetry; Eliot also treated the Irish as the exemplary subhumans of the democratic age (Sweeney Erect). After the first world war, the esoteric right-wing modernism of Eliot and Pound found enthusiasts among the "southern fugitives," a group of reactionary professors of literature centered at Vanderbilt University in Nashville. After spending the 1930s writing polemics on agrarian economics and white supremacy, the wiser fugitives like Robert Penn Warren and Allen Tate metamorphosed into purely literary figures. In this capacity, they and allies like Cleanth Brooks moved north and conquered the Ivy League English departments in the 1940s and 1950s, spreading the gospel of Eliotic/Maurassien coterie culture. Oddly enough, these missionaries of aristocratic reaction found allies among many Jewish Trotskyist intellectuals, who equated popular art of any kind with the crude MassCult of their rivals, the Stalinists of the popular front era. Writing in 1971, the poet Kenneth Rexroth spoke of "the highly select Trotskyite-Southern Agrarian Establishment." Rexroth summarises the fate of US poetry after 1945: "Within a very short time after the second world war, all but a few American poets of any reputation had been recruited into the universities. Every college in the land competed with every other to catch a 'poet in residence.'" The Babylonian captivity of poetry on the American campus has been prolonged by the explosion of "creative-writing" programmes, each of which offers an MFA (Master of Fine Arts) in novel-writing, short-story writing or poetry-writing. Most of the products of these programmes are mediocre, but this has not prevented patiently networking MFAs from capturing the institutional power bases of what remains of "serious literature" in the US, where they use their connections to puff their allies and deride their rivals. The feuding MFAs are probably no more vicious than the court poets around Maecenas or Elizabeth I, and rivalry among artists can produce great art. Not, alas, in this case. The reason is that the MFA programmes were founded at the moment that the most prestigious American poets completely abandoned writing metrical verse (that is to say, verse) in favour of free verse (that is to say, prose). The first disciples of Eliot and Pound in the American professoriate, the so-called "academic formalists" of the mid-20th century, had followed their gurus in favouring an elite coterie art, but they had not imitated Old Possum and Ez in abandoning metrical verse. Instead, in their own poetry, they followed WH Auden, a virtuoso of almost every verse technique. The influence of Auden can be seen in the attention to craft in the work of the best mid-century academic formalists, James Merrill and Richard Wilbur. But then in the 1960s, Robert Lowell, the most famous though not the best American poet of the day, told the Paris Review: "I couldn't get any experience into tight metrical forms... Prose is in many ways better off than poetry." It is difficult to imagine Frost, or Tennyson, declaring that, gosh, writing good verse is just too hard, or being taken seriously if he had. But Lowell's abandonment of verse for chopped-up prose at the height of his ephemeral fame legitimated free verse for countless American poets who had never mastered the difficult craft of prosody. Thanks to their influence, several generations of American poets who cannot tell the difference between a heroic quatrain and an Alcaic stanza have convinced themselves that they are poets. By the 1950s, then, academic coterie poetry had driven out accessible poetry in the US, and by the 1970s, in a palace coup limited to the campus, free verse had defeated academic formalist verse. The last third of the 20th century saw a succession of short-lived schools--Black Mountain, Deep Image, LANGUAGE poetry--each of which consisted of a handful of professors advertising their wares with manifestos, using the ritualised language of aesthetic revolution inherited from the avant-garde of the first world war era. Under any label, the would-be revolutionary professor-poets all write pretty much the same kind of brief random descriptions and meditations in the same kind of amputated prose. This history explains how it is that John Ashbery and Jorie Graham, professors both, came to be the most celebrated poets in the US today. Ashbery, who began as a sprig from the tree of Auden, writes rambling, surreal monologues. The work of Ashbery and Graham illustrates the observation of the late Australian poet AD Hope that in "present day America and in much of the world beside, the poet feels no obligation to his reader. He believes either that he is a sort of dark oracle or that he has no contract to communicate." As a result, Hope said, "the rest of the world treats their poetry as a trivial game." Inevitably, a reaction has set in against the mass-produced free verse of the professor-poets. In the 1970s and 1980s, a number of younger poets and critics began defying orthodoxy and writing in the meters and rhyme schemes which the academic authorities had proscribed. By the 1990s the "new formalists," as they were called, had two goals: to expand the audience of poetry beyond the universities, and to revive and renew the metrical techniques that had been discarded. Although verse narratives by Vikram Seth (The Golden Gate, 1986), Frederick Turner (The New World, 1985) and myself (The Alamo, 1997) sold better than most literary novels, the project of winning back the audience of fiction in prose, to fiction and drama in verse, has not yet succeeded. The efforts of the poetry establishment to win back readers have also failed, in spite of "poetry on the subways" and readings from "cowboy poets" on National Public Radio. So far the new formalists have produced more manifestoes than masterpieces, and the movement may degenerate into another academic clique (almost all of them, like their rivals, make their living by teaching creative writing or literature). Even so, movements are remembered for the handful of geniuses they produce, rather than for the mediocrities. By general consent the leading figure of the new formalism is Dana Gioia, who is a very considerable poet indeed. Gioia, who recently turned 50, should not be a poet at all, by the standards of the academic world. Before retiring in his forties to devote himself to literature, he had a successful career in business, becoming a vice-president of General Foods; he is happily married; he has no history of confinement in asylums, and is not a victim of substance abuse; he does not even own a black turtleneck sweater of the kind that authentic poets wear when posing for photographs. He earned the collective enmity of the creative-writing industry when he wittily vivisected it in a widely-read 1989 essay in the Atlantic Monthly, "Can Poetry Matter?" For the last decade, the professor-poets have avenged themselves by alternately pretending that he does not exist and denouncing him. Although Gioia is one of the few American poets whose books sell, a few years ago the MFA apparat ensured that his name was left off the invitation list to a White House conclave on poetry. But to the horror, no doubt, of the free-verse establishment's tenured representatives, the only contemporary poet whom First Lady Hillary Clinton quoted was Dana Gioia. But the snubs do not matter, because Gioia's reputation as a poet and a critic has grown by word of mouth. This year has seen the publication of his third collection of poems, Interrogations at Noon, and of his libretto for the composer Alva Henderson's opera, Nosferatu. Gioia is considered a slow writer by members of the campus poetry subculture who crank out a new collection of poems every year or so (it's easy to be prolific when your lines don't scan or rhyme). The accumulating size of Gioia's oeuvre, however, is as impressive as its diversity. In addition to three collections of lyric poetry and the libretto, Gioia has translated Seneca, Eugenio Montale and other Italian authors (Gioia, a Californian by heritage, is of Italian and Mexican descent). His lyric poems have been set to music by dozens of composers. This matters because, in the words of the critic Gary Taylor: "Genre is itself important because different genres usually deal, in different styles, with different topics and materials, and so the mastery of more genres implies a greater variety of human stuff." Interrogations at Noon demonstrates that Gioia has a range matched in contemporary poetry in English only by James Fenton. Gioia, who studied at Harvard with Elizabeth Bishop and Robert Fitzgerald, can be as coyly allusive as the late James Merrill, in "Elegy with Surrealist Proverbs as Refrain." But he can also turn to satire in "The Archbishop," subtitled "For a famous critic," and then again to a nature idyll of Goethean simplicity and strangeness in "The End of the World." This haunting poem concludes: "I stood at the edge where the mist ascended,/ My journey done where the world ended./I looked downstream. There was nothing but sky,/ The sound of the water, and the water's reply." Unlike so many of his contemporaries, Gioia has avoided creating a niche for himself by adopting a single, predictable style or set of subjects. But if there were typically "Gioian" poems, they would be the lyrics in which the subject is the wistful erotic longing of personae who are beyond youth but not yet old. One poem in this vein, "Summer Storm," is already well-known: "We stood on the rented patio/While the party went on inside./You knew the groom from college./I was a friend of the bride./We hugged the brownstone wall behind us/To keep our dress clothes dry/And watched the sudden summer storm/Floodlit against the sky." Critics of poetry such as this complain that it is akin to popular song. Those critics concede far more than they intend to. American popular music has conquered the world precisely because it unites the straightforward evocation of sentiments that our cynical intellectuals deride with the meter and rhyme that make language dance. In the work of Dana Gioia, American poetry dances as it has not danced for a long time. Michael Lind is a journalist, poet and novelist who lives in Washington DC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jdavis at panix.com Wed Jun 27 15:10:48 2001 From: jdavis at panix.com (Jordan Davis) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 15:10:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] POETICAL CORRECTNESS In-Reply-To: <014101c0ff3b$61caae00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: Interesting non-standard use of the word "best" throughout that article. Jordan From johnbrehm at mindspring.com Wed Jun 27 15:26:22 2001 From: johnbrehm at mindspring.com (john brehm) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 15:26:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] POETICAL CORRECTNESS References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010627143958.00a5b5f0@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: <008001c0ff3f$0daae520$2819f7a5@oemcomputer> Mr. Lind's ignorance of the history, practice, and purpose of free verse appears to be total. ----- Original Message ----- From: ANASTASIOS KOZAITIS To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2001 2:40 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] POETICAL CORRECTNESS Has anyone read this, yet? ====================================== POETICAL CORRECTNESS American fiction may be big, but the poetry is pitiful. Michael Lind applauds the range of British verse and finds in Dana Gioia a rare American talent. At the beginning of the 21st century, the contrast between the relative health of poetry in Britain and its dire condition in the US is striking. In Britain, the Poet Laureate is known if not always respected and the selection of the Professor of Poetry at Oxford makes the newspapers; in the US, nobody can tell you the name of the Poet Laureate (answer: Stanley Kunitz). The best British poets, such as Seamus Heaney, James Fenton, Charles Causley, Tony Harrison and Wendy Cope, use traditional verse techniques in innovative ways to write about a range of subjects in a variety of genres, including political satire and light verse. In the US, by contrast, almost all of the prestige poetry is written in the early 20th-century mode of "free verse"--that is to say, lines of prose chopped up at arbitrary points--and almost all of it consists of relatively short poems, usually a domestic epiphany or a description of a scene or item as its subject. Hardly anyone writes poetry in the US other than professors--and hardly anybody reads it, other than the professors who write it. The collapse of American poetry into the black hole of academic obscurity is a process that has been occurring for half a century. As recently as the 1920s and 1930s, poets like Robert Frost and Robinson Jeffers were celebrities. Edna St Vincent Millay had her own radio programme. The book-length narrative poems of Edwin Arlington Robinson and Stephen Vincent Benet were bestsellers. Between the wars, as in the 19th century, American poets were more likely to be journalists, men of letters, or even public figures than professors--John Quincy Adams, the sixth president, translated Horace. All of this changed when a gang of professors hijacked American poetry. TS Eliot and Ezra Pound--two expatriate Americans with PhDs--inspired several generations of literary intellectuals to believe that, in Eliot's words, "poets in our civilisation, as it exists at present, must be difficult." Their idea of difficulty was baffling readers with untranslated bits of Sanskrit (Eliot) and Mandarin Chinese (Pound) and writing poems that could not be read, only deciphered, sometimes with the help of footnotes like those the author appended to The Waste Land. This was new. Greek and Roman and Renaissance poets, like those of the 18th century and the Victorian period, had sometimes used allusions that would baffle the ignorant, but they counted on being understood by educated contemporaries. Even the Alexandrians of Ptolemy's Egypt, like Callimachus, who have come to symbolise mandarinism in art, wrote poetry that courtiers and generals of the Hellenistic era with a basic liberal education could appreciate. But Eliot and Pound were alienated even from the elite of their era in a way that Virgil and Dante and Shakespeare and Goethe and Tennyson had not been. The two expatriates wanted a coterie art that would ward off the uninitiated because they detested modern, mass, democratic civilisation. Eliot, an admirer of the French authoritarian ideologue Charles Maurras, famously declared his support for Anglo-Catholicism, classicism and royalism, while Pound made radio broadcasts during the second world war on behalf of Mussolini and Hitler. Both men vilified Jews in their poetry; Eliot also treated the Irish as the exemplary subhumans of the democratic age (Sweeney Erect). After the first world war, the esoteric right-wing modernism of Eliot and Pound found enthusiasts among the "southern fugitives," a group of reactionary professors of literature centered at Vanderbilt University in Nashville. After spending the 1930s writing polemics on agrarian economics and white supremacy, the wiser fugitives like Robert Penn Warren and Allen Tate metamorphosed into purely literary figures. In this capacity, they and allies like Cleanth Brooks moved north and conquered the Ivy League English departments in the 1940s and 1950s, spreading the gospel of Eliotic/Maurassien coterie culture. Oddly enough, these missionaries of aristocratic reaction found allies among many Jewish Trotskyist intellectuals, who equated popular art of any kind with the crude MassCult of their rivals, the Stalinists of the popular front era. Writing in 1971, the poet Kenneth Rexroth spoke of "the highly select Trotskyite-Southern Agrarian Establishment." Rexroth summarises the fate of US poetry after 1945: "Within a very short time after the second world war, all but a few American poets of any reputation had been recruited into the universities. Every college in the land competed with every other to catch a 'poet in residence.'" The Babylonian captivity of poetry on the American campus has been prolonged by the explosion of "creative-writing" programmes, each of which offers an MFA (Master of Fine Arts) in novel-writing, short-story writing or poetry-writing. Most of the products of these programmes are mediocre, but this has not prevented patiently networking MFAs from capturing the institutional power bases of what remains of "serious literature" in the US, where they use their connections to puff their allies and deride their rivals. The feuding MFAs are probably no more vicious than the court poets around Maecenas or Elizabeth I, and rivalry among artists can produce great art. Not, alas, in this case. The reason is that the MFA programmes were founded at the moment that the most prestigious American poets completely abandoned writing metrical verse (that is to say, verse) in favour of free verse (that is to say, prose). The first disciples of Eliot and Pound in the American professoriate, the so-called "academic formalists" of the mid-20th century, had followed their gurus in favouring an elite coterie art, but they had not imitated Old Possum and Ez in abandoning metrical verse. Instead, in their own poetry, they followed WH Auden, a virtuoso of almost every verse technique. The influence of Auden can be seen in the attention to craft in the work of the best mid-century academic formalists, James Merrill and Richard Wilbur. But then in the 1960s, Robert Lowell, the most famous though not the best American poet of the day, told the Paris Review: "I couldn't get any experience into tight metrical forms... Prose is in many ways better off than poetry." It is difficult to imagine Frost, or Tennyson, declaring that, gosh, writing good verse is just too hard, or being taken seriously if he had. But Lowell's abandonment of verse for chopped-up prose at the height of his ephemeral fame legitimated free verse for countless American poets who had never mastered the difficult craft of prosody. Thanks to their influence, several generations of American poets who cannot tell the difference between a heroic quatrain and an Alcaic stanza have convinced themselves that they are poets. By the 1950s, then, academic coterie poetry had driven out accessible poetry in the US, and by the 1970s, in a palace coup limited to the campus, free verse had defeated academic formalist verse. The last third of the 20th century saw a succession of short-lived schools--Black Mountain, Deep Image, LANGUAGE poetry--each of which consisted of a handful of professors advertising their wares with manifestos, using the ritualised language of aesthetic revolution inherited from the avant-garde of the first world war era. Under any label, the would-be revolutionary professor-poets all write pretty much the same kind of brief random descriptions and meditations in the same kind of amputated prose. This history explains how it is that John Ashbery and Jorie Graham, professors both, came to be the most celebrated poets in the US today. Ashbery, who began as a sprig from the tree of Auden, writes rambling, surreal monologues. The work of Ashbery and Graham illustrates the observation of the late Australian poet AD Hope that in "present day America and in much of the world beside, the poet feels no obligation to his reader. He believes either that he is a sort of dark oracle or that he has no contract to communicate." As a result, Hope said, "the rest of the world treats their poetry as a trivial game." Inevitably, a reaction has set in against the mass-produced free verse of the professor-poets. In the 1970s and 1980s, a number of younger poets and critics began defying orthodoxy and writing in the meters and rhyme schemes which the academic authorities had proscribed. By the 1990s the "new formalists," as they were called, had two goals: to expand the audience of poetry beyond the universities, and to revive and renew the metrical techniques that had been discarded. Although verse narratives by Vikram Seth (The Golden Gate, 1986), Frederick Turner (The New World, 1985) and myself (The Alamo, 1997) sold better than most literary novels, the project of winning back the audience of fiction in prose, to fiction and drama in verse, has not yet succeeded. The efforts of the poetry establishment to win back readers have also failed, in spite of "poetry on the subways" and readings from "cowboy poets" on National Public Radio. So far the new formalists have produced more manifestoes than masterpieces, and the movement may degenerate into another academic clique (almost all of them, like their rivals, make their living by teaching creative writing or literature). Even so, movements are remembered for the handful of geniuses they produce, rather than for the mediocrities. By general consent the leading figure of the new formalism is Dana Gioia, who is a very considerable poet indeed. Gioia, who recently turned 50, should not be a poet at all, by the standards of the academic world. Before retiring in his forties to devote himself to literature, he had a successful career in business, becoming a vice-president of General Foods; he is happily married; he has no history of confinement in asylums, and is not a victim of substance abuse; he does not even own a black turtleneck sweater of the kind that authentic poets wear when posing for photographs. He earned the collective enmity of the creative-writing industry when he wittily vivisected it in a widely-read 1989 essay in the Atlantic Monthly, "Can Poetry Matter?" For the last decade, the professor-poets have avenged themselves by alternately pretending that he does not exist and denouncing him. Although Gioia is one of the few American poets whose books sell, a few years ago the MFA apparat ensured that his name was left off the invitation list to a White House conclave on poetry. But to the horror, no doubt, of the free-verse establishment's tenured representatives, the only contemporary poet whom First Lady Hillary Clinton quoted was Dana Gioia. But the snubs do not matter, because Gioia's reputation as a poet and a critic has grown by word of mouth. This year has seen the publication of his third collection of poems, Interrogations at Noon, and of his libretto for the composer Alva Henderson's opera, Nosferatu. Gioia is considered a slow writer by members of the campus poetry subculture who crank out a new collection of poems every year or so (it's easy to be prolific when your lines don't scan or rhyme). The accumulating size of Gioia's oeuvre, however, is as impressive as its diversity. In addition to three collections of lyric poetry and the libretto, Gioia has translated Seneca, Eugenio Montale and other Italian authors (Gioia, a Californian by heritage, is of Italian and Mexican descent). His lyric poems have been set to music by dozens of composers. This matters because, in the words of the critic Gary Taylor: "Genre is itself important because different genres usually deal, in different styles, with different topics and materials, and so the mastery of more genres implies a greater variety of human stuff." Interrogations at Noon demonstrates that Gioia has a range matched in contemporary poetry in English only by James Fenton. Gioia, who studied at Harvard with Elizabeth Bishop and Robert Fitzgerald, can be as coyly allusive as the late James Merrill, in "Elegy with Surrealist Proverbs as Refrain." But he can also turn to satire in "The Archbishop," subtitled "For a famous critic," and then again to a nature idyll of Goethean simplicity and strangeness in "The End of the World." This haunting poem concludes: "I stood at the edge where the mist ascended,/ My journey done where the world ended./I looked downstream. There was nothing but sky,/ The sound of the water, and the water's reply." Unlike so many of his contemporaries, Gioia has avoided creating a niche for himself by adopting a single, predictable style or set of subjects. But if there were typically "Gioian" poems, they would be the lyrics in which the subject is the wistful erotic longing of personae who are beyond youth but not yet old. One poem in this vein, "Summer Storm," is already well-known: "We stood on the rented patio/While the party went on inside./You knew the groom from college./I was a friend of the bride./We hugged the brownstone wall behind us/To keep our dress clothes dry/And watched the sudden summer storm/Floodlit against the sky." Critics of poetry such as this complain that it is akin to popular song. Those critics concede far more than they intend to. American popular music has conquered the world precisely because it unites the straightforward evocation of sentiments that our cynical intellectuals deride with the meter and rhyme that make language dance. In the work of Dana Gioia, American poetry dances as it has not danced for a long time. Michael Lind is a journalist, poet and novelist who lives in Washington DC -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kellogg at duke.edu Wed Jun 27 15:32:10 2001 From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 15:32:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] POETICAL CORRECTNESS In-Reply-To: <014101c0ff3b$61caae00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: Where did this idiotic little recap of various new formalist cliches appear? Michael Lind has one good book, _Up from Conservatism_, but it ain't poetry. I tried to read his Alamo poem, but it was too painfully bad. To point out various specific wrongs: --Seamus Heaney does not consider himself a "British" poet, and has loudly protested his being named so in the Field Day pamphlet "open letter." --neither Eliot nor Pound had a Ph.D. --a stunning misreading of the Lowell quote about experience and meter. Lowell did _not_ say verse was "too hard." --neither Black Mountain, Deep Image, or language poetry were movements of a "handful of professors." Olson was a professor only in the loosest possible sense, and language writing was _outside_ academic poetry for its first ten years or so. --Ashbery may be a "professor" by virtue of having a teaching job, but he has no Ph.D. and was not a professor until _after_ he'd become a major poet. The bulk of Lind's article is simply evidence-free assertion the "best" and a puff piece on Gioia, who should be embarrassed to have such defenders. Though I disagreed with Gioia's manifesto, it was at least something worth arguing about. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Assistant Director kellogg at acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program (919) 660-4357 Duke University FAX (919) 660-4372 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ From anastasios at hell.com Wed Jun 27 15:43:23 2001 From: anastasios at hell.com (ANASTASIOS KOZAITIS) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 15:43:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] POETICAL CORRECTNESS In-Reply-To: References: <014101c0ff3b$61caae00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010627153916.00a3cb80@mail.verizon.net> That article appeared in Prospect Magazine http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/highlights/artsandbooks_july01/index.html I found that Lind took great liberties to support his final position on Gioia. I too found his calling Heaney British amusing. It is interesting that the piece appeared in a British publication, and I found the link to the article on Arts and Letters Daily (http://www.aldaily.com/). I thought it would be an interesting topic for the list. The stuff on Lowell was interesting as well. Though I do not like Lowell's work, he did possess a sense of craft. His absolute dismissal of free verse is interesting. But rather than looking at things that are disagreeable, are there ideas/points in the article with which people agreed? --Ak At 03:32 PM 6/27/01, you wrote: >Where did this idiotic little recap of various new formalist cliches >appear? > >Michael Lind has one good book, _Up from Conservatism_, but it ain't >poetry. I tried to read his Alamo poem, but it was too painfully bad. > >To point out various specific wrongs: > >--Seamus Heaney does not consider himself a "British" poet, and has >loudly protested his being named so in the Field Day pamphlet "open >letter." > >--neither Eliot nor Pound had a Ph.D. > >--a stunning misreading of the Lowell quote about experience and meter. >Lowell did _not_ say verse was "too hard." > >--neither Black Mountain, Deep Image, or language poetry were movements of >a "handful of professors." Olson was a professor only in the loosest >possible sense, and language writing was _outside_ academic poetry for its >first ten years or so. > >--Ashbery may be a "professor" by virtue of having a teaching job, but he >has no Ph.D. and was not a professor until _after_ he'd become a major >poet. > >The bulk of Lind's article is simply evidence-free assertion the "best" >and a puff piece on Gioia, who should be embarrassed to have such >defenders. Though I disagreed with Gioia's manifesto, it was at least >something worth arguing about. > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >David Kellogg Assistant Director >kellogg at acpub.duke.edu University Writing Program >(919) 660-4357 Duke University >FAX (919) 660-4372 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Jun 27 16:02:09 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 16:02:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: ANTI-LAUEREATE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA References: <28.175109d8.286b86cc@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B3A3BC1.3598@nut-n-but.net> Gosh, did everyone forget the incomparable Lyn Lifshin? Though I did appreciate mention of Kostelanetz who darkens my mailbox about 3x per year with usually the same article. Yeah, one of Richard's flaws is that he's competing with Lifshin for most appearances in print ever, so he sends stuff everywhere, some of it not too great. > Re: Lind's piece, just accessed it this morning on the Web. Michael is a friend of mine who tends to be a bit outspoken. Interesting piece indeed, but I think I'll just lurk and see what happens on this. >From what he wrote, it's obvious that Lind knows too little about either British or American poetry--or poetry in general--to bother with. --Bob G. From DICK at watson.ibm.com Wed Jun 27 16:05:35 2001 From: DICK at watson.ibm.com (DICK at watson.ibm.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 01 16:05:35 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Interrogations at Noon Message-ID: <200106272008.QAA18854@sp1n189at0.watson.ibm.com> For a more balanced evaluation than Lind's, see one by Art Mortensen - very much a pro-formalist - at http://www.n2hos.com/acm/ Richard From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Jun 27 16:36:46 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 16:36:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Interrogations at Noon References: <200106272008.QAA18854@sp1n189at0.watson.ibm.com> Message-ID: <3B3A43DD.6AE7@nut-n-but.net> > For a more balanced evaluation than Lind's, see > one by Art Mortensen - very much a pro-formalist - > at http://www.n2hos.com/acm/ What's the title of the piece, Richard? I went to the above and found lots of Mortensen essays. The one I read said that if it weren't for Peggy Guggenheim, no one would ever have heard of Jackson Pollock, so I must say I don't expect to get much out of what he's written on poetry. --Bob G. From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Wed Jun 27 17:36:47 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:36:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] POETICAL CORRECTNESS Message-ID: <20010627213647.4563A2744@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From dick at watson.ibm.com Wed Jun 27 18:19:03 2001 From: dick at watson.ibm.com (C. R. Attanasio) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 18:19:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Interrogations at Noon Message-ID: <3B3A5BD7.931E203@watson.ibm.com> http://www.n2hos.com/acm/contents.html Try this link, Bob G. and anyone else who's interested. "The opinions expressed by Mortensen are not necessarily mine." One thing I find annoying about Gioia's poems is that almost every line is its own syntactic unit, at least in the examples Mortensen uses. It makes for very monotonous reading. Does anyone else notice this? Richard From johnbrehm at mindspring.com Wed Jun 27 19:01:19 2001 From: johnbrehm at mindspring.com (john brehm) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 19:01:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] POETICAL CORRECTNESS References: <014101c0ff3b$61caae00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20010627153916.00a3cb80@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: <00c601c0ff5d$14ea1360$2819f7a5@oemcomputer> "The stuff on Lowell was interesting as well. Though I do not like Lowell's work, he did possess a sense of craft. His absolute dismissal of free verse is interesting. But rather than looking at things that are disagreeable, are there ideas/points in the article with which people agreed?" Lind ruins his credibilty so quickly that's it's hard to agree with him even where one might be inclined to do so. Defining free verse as "prose chopped up at arbitrary points" is so willfully stupid--are Whitman's lines arbitrary? Or Williams's? Or Neruda's? Or Creeley's? Or Levertov's--makes clear that this is more propaganda than considered argument. (Ah, if only Song of Myself were in terza rima, and Spring and All a sonnet sequence). I'm not sure how this absolute dismissal is "interesting." It's certainly not new. Of course one could look at the worst free verse currently being written and jump to the conclusion that ALL free verse is worthless, but that's a little like looking at George Bush and assuming that ALL Republicans are inarticulate dimwits. Which, of course, they aren't. I'm inclined to agree with his critique of Eliot and Pound as elitist, but this is hardly a breathtaking observation. And for all Eliot's elitism he had, and I would guess still has, a huge and varied readership. Is there a better-known or more widely read American poem than The Wasteland? I also think there are serious problems with American poets being so thorougly absorbed into academia, but Lind's inflated rhetoric--the golden age ended when "a gang of professors hijacked American poetry"--wouldn't allow him much useful insight on this subject. John Brehm From kellogg at duke.edu Wed Jun 27 19:32:21 2001 From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 19:32:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] POETICAL CORRECTNESS References: <014101c0ff3b$61caae00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> <5.0.0.25.2.20010627153916.00a3cb80@mail.verizon.net> <00c601c0ff5d$14ea1360$2819f7a5@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <3B3A6D05.3389C4D1@duke.edu> john brehm wrote: [snip] > I'm inclined to agree with his critique of Eliot and Pound as elitist, but > this is hardly a breathtaking observation. And for all Eliot's elitism he > had, and I would guess still has, a huge and varied readership. Is there a > better-known or more widely read American poem than The Wasteland? I also > think there are serious problems with American poets being so thorougly > absorbed into academia, but Lind's inflated rhetoric--the golden age ended > when "a gang of professors hijacked American poetry"--wouldn't allow him > much useful insight on this subject. Exactly. Indeed, "The Waste Land" was made popular by non-academics, not by the "professors" Lind derides. I'm reminded of Edmund Wilson's observation in _Axel's Castle_: "where some of even the finest intelligences of the elder generation read "The Waste Land" with blankness or laughter, the young had recognized a poet." David Kellogg Assistant Director, University Writing Program Duke University (919) 660-4357; FAX (919) 660-4372 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Jun 27 19:48:11 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 19:48:11 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] POETICAL CORRECTNESS Message-ID: <87.c4525c3.286bcabb@cs.com> In a message dated 6/27/2001 1:42:51 PM Central Daylight Time, anastasios at hell.com writes: > TS Eliot and Ezra Pound--two expatriate Americans with PhDs--inspired > several generations of literary intellectuals to believe that, in Eliot's > words, "poets in our civilisation, as it exists at present, must be > difficult." Slipshod work here. Neither had a Ph. D. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Jun 27 20:01:47 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 20:01:47 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] POETICAL CORRECTNESS Message-ID: In a message dated 6/27/2001 1:42:51 PM Central Daylight Time, anastasios at hell.com writes: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Jun 27 20:04:37 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 20:04:37 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] POETICAL CORRECTNESS Message-ID: <10f.1bb98d5.286bce95@cs.com> In a message dated 6/27/2001 1:42:51 PM Central Daylight Time, anastasios at hell.com writes: > Has anyone read this, yet? > Unfortunately, yes. Lind's rant is silly, ill-informed, and paranoid. Gioia would be better served by a critic who pays more attention to the poetry, less to global conspiracy theories. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From griffinbaker at home.com Thu Jun 28 02:14:06 2001 From: griffinbaker at home.com (Mark Baker) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 23:14:06 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Accessible Blurbs References: <3B3A071B.E7A9F8B8@lfc.edu> Message-ID: <3B3ACB2E.228D450F@home.com> "At once disjunctive and contrained _Torontology_ celebrates the joyful arbitrariness of the verbal sign along vectors of incision but with a steady critical engagement with transparency that promotes self-reflexivity and metalanguage to new dimensions. The sedimentary of the mythological and the surface of the pop mix felicitously in the spiral rave of the logos." Steve McCaffery on Stephn Cain's _Torontology_. How can I quote this? Because right there in the bookstore I took out my pen and copied it, overcome by the logos. Mark Baker From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jun 28 06:35:34 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 06:35:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Interrogations at Noon References: <3B3A5BD7.931E203@watson.ibm.com> Message-ID: <3B3B0876.67D@nut-n-but.net> C. R. Attanasio wrote: > > http://www.n2hos.com/acm/contents.html > > Try this link, Bob G. and anyone else who's interested. Thanks, Richard. This time I got to the essay. Better than Lind but I didn't get too much out of it. >One thing I find annoying about Gioia's poems is that almost every line is its own syntactic unit, at least in the examples Mortensen uses. It makes for very monotonous reading. Not sure about one-line-units in Gioia but I also find his poems mostly monotonous. He has a very standard mind, it seems to me. --Bob G. From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Jun 28 09:28:49 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 09:28:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] While I'm wishlisting - In-Reply-To: <3B3A371C.57CC@idirect.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the memories, Tanya. Haven't read any of that in ages. Hal > > Isn't RLS's *A Child's Garden of Verses* still around? > > > > Hal > > Dear Halvard, > > Earlier this year, I inherited from my late great-grandmother a soft, > leather-bound book which contains Robert Louis Stevenson's _A Child's > Garden of Verses_. Fortunately, this delightful book *is* still > around--in fact, I just read from it one of my favourite lyrics which I > hope you likewise enjoy: > > PICTURE-BOOKS IN WINTER. > > Summer fading, winter comes-- > Frosty mornings, tingling thumbs, > Window robins, winter rooks, > And the picture story-books. > > Water now is turned to stone > Nurse and I can walk upon; > Still we find the flowing brooks > In the picture story-books. > > All the pretty things put by, > Wait upon the children's eye, > Sheep and shepherds, trees and crooks, > In the picture story-books. > > We may see how all things are, > Seas and cities, near and far, > And the flying fairies' looks, > In the picture story-books. > > How am I to sing your praise, > Happy chimney-corner days, > Sitting safe in nursery nooks, > Reading picture story-books? > > Stevenson, Robert Louis. "Picture-Books In Winter." _ A Child's Garden > of Verses_. _The Works of Robert Louis Stevenson_ (Vol. VI). New York: > Thomas Nelson and Sons (date not provided). 30. > > --------------------------------- > > Sincerely, > > Tanya Adele Koehnke > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From TerryP17 at aol.com Thu Jun 28 11:21:34 2001 From: TerryP17 at aol.com (TerryP17 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 11:21:34 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: POETICAL CORRECTNESS Message-ID: <9b.1714097e.286ca57e@aol.com> All-- Glad I lurked for awhile on Lind's piece. Michael is an interesting fellow. Once an acolyte of Bill Buckley's on the National Review, he decided to turn against Conservatism, which is always a good idea if you want a writing career, and now it's a little tough to tell where his politics are, since the Liberals aren't inclined to trust him either. He's down here with the rest of us political junkies in DC right now, and is the political editor for Harpers Magazine. He is actually primarily a political writer who does quite a bit of poetry "on the side." I am not totally sure how Michael got involved with poetry, but the Formalistas, I think, keep him at arm's length because they regard him as sort of a loose cannon, in that he fires rather quickly from the hip. This is due, at least in part, to the fact that if you're a journalist, which he is, a hit or an error today will quickly be forgotten by the next issue of the newspaper. But they need the column inches filled today. This tends to be a problem when you use this methodology in writing academic or semi-academic criticism. Professors--who work with criticism day in and day out, unlike commercial writers--are always there ready to nail you with obvious inaccuracies like the Heaney-British(!) thing. (Which my Dublin-born wife would also be the first to clobber him with.) When a layman takes on this kind of stuff he has to work twice as hard, just to maintain credibility amongst the profs. Michael makes some interesting arguments here, but they are undercut and at times buried by the inaccuracies of the citations. "The Alamo"--not sure that the whole book is "painfully bad" but some verses sure are. It was a noble experiment. I am, of course, a huge fan of formal verse, and Michael does well with his version of epic meter and rhyme in this book, but a couple hundred pages of this, alas, just don't seem to work well in English anymore, and the engine creaks from time to time with the excruciating labor involved in simply maintaining the structure. Unless any of you strenuously object, I would like to "digest" this particular email chain, delete the names to protect the innocent, and email it to Lind. I think he needs to see this stuff before he writes another piece in this area. I find the criticism here a little nasty, but not particularly invalid. I think it would be good for him to read it. --Terry Ponick From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Jun 28 11:25:20 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 11:25:20 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: POETICAL CORRECTNESS Message-ID: <10e.1c54166.286ca660@cs.com> In a message dated 6/28/2001 10:22:48 AM Central Daylight Time, TerryP17 at aol.com writes: > > "The Alamo"--not sure that the whole book is "painfully bad" but some > verses sure are. It was a noble experiment. I am, of course, a huge fan of > formal verse, and Michael does well with his version of epic meter and > rhyme in this book, but a couple hundred pages of this, alas, just don't > seem to work well in English anymore, and the engine creaks from time to > time with the excruciating labor involved in simply maintaining the > structure. > His essay on the epic conventions is much better than the poem itself. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 28 11:38:09 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R. Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 11:38:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] POETICAL CORRECTNESS References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010627143958.00a5b5f0@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: <3B3B4F61.5FD4@ix.netcom.com> Thanks Anastasios, Just caught up with this. But-but-but-but-but in the Cantos the Mandarin IS accompanied by its translation. This article is very funny. I read it to my neighbors cat. Carlo ANASTASIOS KOZAITIS wrote: > > Has anyone read this, yet? > > ====================================== > > POETICAL CORRECTNESS > > American fiction may be big, but the poetry is pitiful. Michael Lind > applauds the range of British verse and finds in Dana Gioia a rare > American talent. > > At the beginning of the 21st century, the contrast between the > relative health of poetry in Britain and its dire condition in the US > is striking. In Britain, the Poet Laureate is known if not always > respected and the selection of the Professor of Poetry at Oxford makes > the newspapers; in the US, nobody can tell you the name of the Poet > Laureate (answer: Stanley Kunitz). The best British poets, such as > Seamus Heaney, James Fenton, Charles Causley, Tony Harrison and Wendy > Cope, use traditional verse techniques in innovative ways to write > about a range of subjects in a variety of genres, including political > satire and light verse. In the US, by contrast, almost all of the > prestige poetry is written in the early 20th-century mode of "free > verse"--that is to say, lines of prose chopped up at arbitrary > points--and almost all of it consists of relatively short poems, > usually a domestic epiphany or a description of a scene or item as its > subject. Hardly anyone writes poetry in the US other than > professors--and hardly anybody reads it, other than the professors who > write it. > > The collapse of American poetry into the black hole of academic > obscurity is a process that has been occurring for half a century. As > recently as the 1920s and 1930s, poets like Robert Frost and Robinson > Jeffers were celebrities. Edna St Vincent Millay had her own radio > programme. The book-length narrative poems of Edwin Arlington Robinson > and Stephen Vincent Benet were bestsellers. Between the wars, as in > the 19th century, American poets were more likely to be journalists, > men of letters, or even public figures than professors--John Quincy > Adams, the sixth president, translated Horace. > > All of this changed when a gang of professors hijacked American > poetry. TS Eliot and Ezra Pound--two expatriate Americans with > PhDs--inspired several generations of literary intellectuals to > believe that, in Eliot's words, "poets in our civilisation, as it > exists at present, must be difficult." Their idea of difficulty was > baffling readers with untranslated bits of Sanskrit (Eliot) and > Mandarin Chinese (Pound) and writing poems that could not be read, > only deciphered, sometimes with the help of footnotes like those the > author appended to The Waste Land. This was new. Greek and Roman and > Renaissance poets, like those of the 18th century and the Victorian > period, had sometimes used allusions that would baffle the ignorant, > but they counted on being understood by educated contemporaries. Even > the Alexandrians of Ptolemy's Egypt, like Callimachus, who have come > to symbolise mandarinism in art, wrote poetry that courtiers and > generals of the Hellenistic era with a basic liberal education could > appreciate. > > But Eliot and Pound were alienated even from the elite of their era in > a way that Virgil and Dante and Shakespeare and Goethe and Tennyson > had not been. The two expatriates wanted a coterie art that would ward > off the uninitiated because they detested modern, mass, democratic > civilisation. Eliot, an admirer of the French authoritarian ideologue > Charles Maurras, famously declared his support for Anglo-Catholicism, > classicism and royalism, while Pound made radio broadcasts during the > second world war on behalf of Mussolini and Hitler. Both men vilified > Jews in their poetry; Eliot also treated the Irish as the exemplary > subhumans of the democratic age (Sweeney Erect). > > After the first world war, the esoteric right-wing modernism of Eliot > and Pound found enthusiasts among the "southern fugitives," a group of > reactionary professors of literature centered at Vanderbilt University > in Nashville. After spending the 1930s writing polemics on agrarian > economics and white supremacy, the wiser fugitives like Robert Penn > Warren and Allen Tate metamorphosed into purely literary figures. In > this capacity, they and allies like Cleanth Brooks moved north and > conquered the Ivy League English departments in the 1940s and 1950s, > spreading the gospel of Eliotic/Maurassien coterie culture. Oddly > enough, these missionaries of aristocratic reaction found allies among > many Jewish Trotskyist intellectuals, who equated popular art of any > kind with the crude MassCult of their rivals, the Stalinists of the > popular front era. Writing in 1971, the poet Kenneth Rexroth spoke of > "the highly select Trotskyite-Southern Agrarian Establishment." > > Rexroth summarises the fate of US poetry after 1945: "Within a very > short time after the second world war, all but a few American poets of > any reputation had been recruited into the universities. Every college > in the land competed with every other to catch a 'poet in residence.'" > The Babylonian captivity of poetry on the American campus has been > prolonged by the explosion of "creative-writing" programmes, each of > which offers an MFA (Master of Fine Arts) in novel-writing, > short-story writing or poetry-writing. Most of the products of these > programmes are mediocre, but this has not prevented patiently > networking MFAs from capturing the institutional power bases of what > remains of "serious literature" in the US, where they use their > connections to puff their allies and deride their rivals. The feuding > MFAs are probably no more vicious than the court poets around Maecenas > or Elizabeth I, and rivalry among artists can produce great art. Not, > alas, in this case. The reason is that the MFA programmes were founded > at the moment that the most prestigious American poets completely > abandoned writing metrical verse (that is to say, verse) in favour of > free verse (that is to say, prose). > > The first disciples of Eliot and Pound in the American professoriate, > the so-called "academic formalists" of the mid-20th century, had > followed their gurus in favouring an elite coterie art, but they had > not imitated Old Possum and Ez in abandoning metrical verse. Instead, > in their own poetry, they followed WH Auden, a virtuoso of almost > every verse technique. The influence of Auden can be seen in the > attention to craft in the work of the best mid-century academic > formalists, James Merrill and Richard Wilbur. > > But then in the 1960s, Robert Lowell, the most famous though not the > best American poet of the day, told the Paris Review: "I couldn't get > any experience into tight metrical forms... Prose is in many ways > better off than poetry." It is difficult to imagine Frost, or > Tennyson, declaring that, gosh, writing good verse is just too hard, > or being taken seriously if he had. But Lowell's abandonment of verse > for chopped-up prose at the height of his ephemeral fame legitimated > free verse for countless American poets who had never mastered the > difficult craft of prosody. Thanks to their influence, several > generations of American poets who cannot tell the difference between a > heroic quatrain and an Alcaic stanza have convinced themselves that > they are poets. > > By the 1950s, then, academic coterie poetry had driven out accessible > poetry in the US, and by the 1970s, in a palace coup limited to the > campus, free verse had defeated academic formalist verse. The last > third of the 20th century saw a succession of short-lived > schools--Black Mountain, Deep Image, LANGUAGE poetry--each of which > consisted of a handful of professors advertising their wares with > manifestos, using the ritualised language of aesthetic revolution > inherited from the avant-garde of the first world war era. Under any > label, the would-be revolutionary professor-poets all write pretty > much the same kind of brief random descriptions and meditations in the > same kind of amputated prose. > > This history explains how it is that John Ashbery and Jorie Graham, > professors both, came to be the most celebrated poets in the US today. > Ashbery, who began as a sprig from the tree of Auden, writes rambling, > surreal monologues. The work of Ashbery and Graham illustrates the > observation of the late Australian poet AD Hope that in "present day > America and in much of the world beside, the poet feels no obligation > to his reader. He believes either that he is a sort of dark oracle or > that he has no contract to communicate." As a result, Hope said, "the > rest of the world treats their poetry as a trivial game." > > Inevitably, a reaction has set in against the mass-produced free verse > of the professor-poets. In the 1970s and 1980s, a number of younger > poets and critics began defying orthodoxy and writing in the meters > and rhyme schemes which the academic authorities had proscribed. By > the 1990s the "new formalists," as they were called, had two goals: to > expand the audience of poetry beyond the universities, and to revive > and renew the metrical techniques that had been discarded. Although > verse narratives by Vikram Seth (The Golden Gate, 1986), Frederick > Turner (The New World, 1985) and myself (The Alamo, 1997) sold better > than most literary novels, the project of winning back the audience of > fiction in prose, to fiction and drama in verse, has not yet > succeeded. The efforts of the poetry establishment to win back readers > have also failed, in spite of "poetry on the subways" and readings > from "cowboy poets" on National Public Radio. > > So far the new formalists have produced more manifestoes than > masterpieces, and the movement may degenerate into another academic > clique (almost all of them, like their rivals, make their living by > teaching creative writing or literature). Even so, movements are > remembered for the handful of geniuses they produce, rather than for > the mediocrities. By general consent the leading figure of the new > formalism is Dana Gioia, who is a very considerable poet indeed. > > Gioia, who recently turned 50, should not be a poet at all, by the > standards of the academic world. Before retiring in his forties to > devote himself to literature, he had a successful career in business, > becoming a vice-president of General Foods; he is happily married; he > has no history of confinement in asylums, and is not a victim of > substance abuse; he does not even own a black turtleneck sweater of > the kind that authentic poets wear when posing for photographs. He > earned the collective enmity of the creative-writing industry when he > wittily vivisected it in a widely-read 1989 essay in the Atlantic > Monthly, "Can Poetry Matter?" For the last decade, the professor-poets > have avenged themselves by alternately pretending that he does not > exist and denouncing him. Although Gioia is one of the few American > poets whose books sell, a few years ago the MFA apparat ensured that > his name was left off the invitation list to a White House conclave on > poetry. But to the horror, no doubt, of the free-verse establishment's > tenured representatives, the only contemporary poet whom First Lady > Hillary Clinton quoted was Dana Gioia. > > But the snubs do not matter, because Gioia's reputation as a poet and > a critic has grown by word of mouth. This year has seen the > publication of his third collection of poems, Interrogations at Noon, > and of his libretto for the composer Alva Henderson's opera, > Nosferatu. Gioia is considered a slow writer by members of the campus > poetry subculture who crank out a new collection of poems every year > or so (it's easy to be prolific when your lines don't scan or rhyme). > The accumulating size of Gioia's oeuvre, however, is as impressive as > its diversity. In addition to three collections of lyric poetry and > the libretto, Gioia has translated Seneca, Eugenio Montale and other > Italian authors (Gioia, a Californian by heritage, is of Italian and > Mexican descent). His lyric poems have been set to music by dozens of > composers. This matters because, in the words of the critic Gary > Taylor: "Genre is itself important because different genres usually > deal, in different styles, with different topics and materials, and so > the mastery of more genres implies a greater variety of human stuff." > > Interrogations at Noon demonstrates that Gioia has a range matched in > contemporary poetry in English only by James Fenton. Gioia, who > studied at Harvard with Elizabeth Bishop and Robert Fitzgerald, can be > as coyly allusive as the late James Merrill, in "Elegy with Surrealist > Proverbs as Refrain." But he can also turn to satire in "The > Archbishop," subtitled "For a famous critic," and then again to a > nature idyll of Goethean simplicity and strangeness in "The End of the > World." This haunting poem concludes: "I stood at the edge where the > mist ascended,/ My journey done where the world ended./I looked > downstream. There was nothing but sky,/ The sound of the water, and > the water's reply." Unlike so many of his contemporaries, Gioia has > avoided creating a niche for himself by adopting a single, predictable > style or set of subjects. But if there were typically "Gioian" poems, > they would be the lyrics in which the subject is the wistful erotic > longing of personae who are beyond youth but not yet old. One poem in > this vein, "Summer Storm," is already well-known: "We stood on the > rented patio/While the party went on inside./You knew the groom from > college./I was a friend of the bride./We hugged the brownstone wall > behind us/To keep our dress clothes dry/And watched the sudden summer > storm/Floodlit against the sky." > > Critics of poetry such as this complain that it is akin to popular > song. Those critics concede far more than they intend to. American > popular music has conquered the world precisely because it unites the > straightforward evocation of sentiments that our cynical intellectuals > deride with the meter and rhyme that make language dance. In the work > of Dana Gioia, American poetry dances as it has not danced for a long > time. > > Michael Lind is a journalist, poet and novelist who lives in > Washington DC From moira_russell at hotmail.com Thu Jun 28 11:59:31 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 07:59:31 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Accessible Blurbs Message-ID: Mark Baker wrote: >How can I quote this? Because right there in the bookstore I took out my >pen and copied it, overcome by the logos. Now, you can't fool me -- you made this up, right? Mock-suspiciously Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 28 12:10:28 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R. Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 12:10:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Accessible Blurbs References: Message-ID: <3B3B56F4.336B@ix.netcom.com> This is the way "the poetics of mobility" hustles their wares. Others hustle their's by using words such as "accessible" in the 'blurts.' This is called marketing. Ref. the ubiquitous Edward Bernays and his lovely consort Robert Lovett. Moira Russell wrote: > > Mark Baker wrote: > > >How can I quote this? Because right there in the bookstore I took out my > >pen and copied it, overcome by the logos. > > Now, you can't fool me -- you made this up, right? > > Mock-suspiciously > > Moira Russell > Seattle, WA > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From moira_russell at hotmail.com Thu Jun 28 12:22:05 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 08:22:05 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] POETICAL CORRECTNESS Message-ID: >From: ANASTASIOS KOZAITIS >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: [New-Poetry] POETICAL CORRECTNESS >Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:40:56 -0400 > >Has anyone read this, yet? > >====================================== > >POETICAL CORRECTNESS I find in cases like this that whatever sentiments the writer may have, and whatever sentiments I as reader may have, when I come across so many factual errors in a short piece I am automatically suspicious of whatever conclusions the author may draw. It simply makes me believe whoever the writer is or whatever he is writing on, he doesn't really know what he's talking about. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jun 28 12:21:46 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 12:21:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: POETICAL CORRECTNESS References: <9b.1714097e.286ca57e@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B3B599A.1937@nut-n-but.net> Terry, Michael's problem for me is not inaccuracy--who cares what nationality Heaney thinks he is. Michael's problem is that he knows very little about poetry. --Bob G. From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 28 12:43:02 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R. Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 12:43:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] POETICAL CORRECTNESS References: Message-ID: <3B3B5E96.486E@ix.netcom.com> Here, here Moira. Lind's article is monumentally ignorant of poetry, and a slap in the face to all of us who care about it. (There are currently dozen's of radio broadcasts around this great nation featuring poets. The poet Jack Foley who has a weekly radio program in San Francisco recently sent me a tape of an interview he did with-------------------------Dana Gioia on his radio show. Lind does point out that Pound had his own radio show but that was before FM became popular. I guess we could split hairs over national syndication.) CP Moira Russell wrote: > > >From: ANASTASIOS KOZAITIS > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Subject: [New-Poetry] POETICAL CORRECTNESS > >Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:40:56 -0400 > > > >Has anyone read this, yet? > > > >====================================== > > > >POETICAL CORRECTNESS > > I find in cases like this that whatever sentiments the writer may have, and > whatever sentiments I as reader may have, when I come across so many factual > errors in a short piece I am automatically suspicious of whatever > conclusions the author may draw. It simply makes me believe whoever the > writer is or whatever he is writing on, he doesn't really know what he's > talking about. > > Moira Russell > Seattle, WA > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From moira_russell at hotmail.com Thu Jun 28 13:06:45 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 09:06:45 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: POETICAL CORRECTNESS Message-ID: Bob Grumman wrote: >Terry, Michael's problem for me is not inaccuracy--who cares what >nationality Heaney thinks he is. Michael's problem is that he knows >very little about poetry. But isn't that 'knowing very little about poetry' demonstrated through his (considerable) inaccuracy? I think Heaney would disagree with you about no one caring what he thinks his nationality is. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From TerryP17 at aol.com Thu Jun 28 13:08:38 2001 From: TerryP17 at aol.com (TerryP17 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 13:08:38 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: POETICAL CORRECTNESS Message-ID: <110.1952071.286cbe96@aol.com> Bob-- <> Actually, the funny thing is, Bob, that Michael does know quite a lot about poetry, at least for a guy who doesn't have multiple degrees in the field. Sam Gwynn, in another email to this list, rightly observes that "His essay on the epic conventions [which appears in the back of "The Alamo"] is much better than the poem itself." Absolutely correct. Folks should check it out in their copious free time, assuming some libraries have actually stocked the book. Which is what makes the currently quoted Lind piece all the more a puzzle. Just beats the Dickens out of me. --Terry Ponick From tadrichards at prodigy.net Thu Jun 28 13:37:59 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 13:37:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: POETICAL CORRECTNESS References: <9b.1714097e.286ca57e@aol.com> Message-ID: <002401c0fff9$130973a0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Terry -- with all due respect, the easy and not necessarily accurate linking of epithets (professor-poet) is a strategy of attack I've noticed from the right (although you say Lind is a conservative apostate...like Brock?) What is a professor-poet? Lind seems to be assuming that no New Formalists are professors, which is inaccurate, and he definitely assumes professorship for some free verse poets who aren't professors. I wonder where he'd put me? I was a full-time academic for about 4 years after graduate school (Iowa), then I got blacklisted and my teaching career was ended. So I became a non-professor-poet, but not by choice -- I would have preferred to go on being a professor-poet. So what does that make me? A genuine non-professor-poet, or a sham? After 17 years of editing skin magazines and business magazines, writing historical novels and mysteries, I went back to teaching part time, and writing non-fiction books on money management. Last year, after about 17 years of that, I taught full time. This fall...I don't know yet. Could Lind read my work and figure out what was professor-poetry and what was non-professor-poetry? Would he assume that the formal work was done when I was a non-professor, and the free verse, or loose accentual stuff, was done while I was professoring (which would be a faulty assumption)?: Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 11:21 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: POETICAL CORRECTNESS > All-- > > Glad I lurked for awhile on Lind's piece. Michael is an interesting fellow. Once an acolyte of Bill Buckley's on the National Review, he decided to turn against Conservatism, which is always a good idea if you want a writing career, and now it's a little tough to tell where his politics are, since the Liberals aren't inclined to trust him either. He's down here with the rest of us political junkies in DC right now, and is the political editor for Harpers Magazine. He is actually primarily a political writer who does quite a bit of poetry "on the side." > > I am not totally sure how Michael got involved with poetry, but the Formalistas, I think, keep him at arm's length because they regard him as sort of a loose cannon, in that he fires rather quickly from the hip. This is due, at least in part, to the fact that if you're a journalist, which he is, a hit or an error today will quickly be forgotten by the next issue of the newspaper. But they need the column inches filled today. > > This tends to be a problem when you use this methodology in writing academic or semi-academic criticism. Professors--who work with criticism day in and day out, unlike commercial writers--are always there ready to nail you with obvious inaccuracies like the Heaney-British(!) thing. (Which my Dublin-born wife would also be the first to clobber him with.) When a layman takes on this kind of stuff he has to work twice as hard, just to maintain credibility amongst the profs. Michael makes some interesting arguments here, but they are undercut and at times buried by the inaccuracies of the citations. > > "The Alamo"--not sure that the whole book is "painfully bad" but some verses sure are. It was a noble experiment. I am, of course, a huge fan of formal verse, and Michael does well with his version of epic meter and rhyme in this book, but a couple hundred pages of this, alas, just don't seem to work well in English anymore, and the engine creaks from time to time with the excruciating labor involved in simply maintaining the structure. > > Unless any of you strenuously object, I would like to "digest" this particular email chain, delete the names to protect the innocent, and email it to Lind. I think he needs to see this stuff before he writes another piece in this area. I find the criticism here a little nasty, but not particularly invalid. I think it would be good for him to read it. > > --Terry Ponick > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jdavis at panix.com Thu Jun 28 13:42:27 2001 From: jdavis at panix.com (Jordan Davis) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 13:42:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Accessible Blurbs In-Reply-To: <3B3ACB2E.228D450F@home.com> Message-ID: I'll say this for Steve McCaffery, for a skinny old Canadian guy he sure can transgress with the best of them, I mean up there with Johnny Rotten. At a reading at Poetry City in New York, Steve interrupted one of his poems by holding the page up to his face and sticking his tongue through the page. That gibberishy blurb for "torontology" has to be him putting his tongue somewhere else, i.e. his cheek. Let's say he meant it though; it sounds like "Torontology" deals with corporation and government language and other abuses of accessible language ("transparency"), while mainly just fooling around with words ("spiral rave"). I can see how the fake-authoritative use of jargon might still put people off -- but *you* try and say something meaningful in a blurb. Every group has their particular rubber stamp/territory mark -- Mark Baker, will you be so kind as to hunt down a representative sampling? Jordan Davis From anastasios at hell.com Thu Jun 28 14:21:48 2001 From: anastasios at hell.com (ANASTASIOS KOZAITIS) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 14:21:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] POETICAL CORRECTNESS In-Reply-To: <3B3B5E96.486E@ix.netcom.com> References: Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20010628141511.00a4f050@mail.verizon.net> A friend of mine, who is an editor, said this: "Hardly anyone writes poetry in the US other than professors--and hardly anybody reads it, other than the professors who write it. " What is remarkable is that everything in the statement is upside down. Contrasted with US vitality the situation in Britain is pitiful. And in the US the spread of the audience outside academic walls has been the big story of the last 10 - 12 years. Now, what I think points to a book that Carlo brought to my attention a few months ago: John Aldredge's In Search of Heresy: American Literature in an Age of Conformity. Aldredge (and correct me if I'm mistaken, Carlo) claims that academia through the pressures of publish or perish turned academic scholars into more commercial writers and through this homogenized and diluted a great deal of American literature after WWII. I'm surprised that Lind brings Rexroth up in his essay. The irony of someone like Lind bringing up Rexroth should not be lost. Rexroth would have chewed him out if he'd read that article. The more we delve into the article, the more we see how irresponsible an article it is. Why would Lind publish this article in the UK? Would he publish something like that in the US? --Ak At 12:43 PM 6/28/01, you wrote: >Here, here Moira. Lind's article is monumentally ignorant of poetry, and >a slap in the face to all of us who care about it. > >(There are currently dozen's of radio broadcasts around this great >nation featuring poets. The poet Jack Foley who has a weekly radio >program in San Francisco recently sent me a tape of an interview he did >with-------------------------Dana Gioia on his radio show. Lind does >point out that Pound had his own radio show but that was before FM >became popular. I guess we could split hairs over national syndication.) >CP > > Moira Russell wrote: > > > > >From: ANASTASIOS KOZAITIS > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >Subject: [New-Poetry] POETICAL CORRECTNESS > > >Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:40:56 -0400 > > > > > >Has anyone read this, yet? > > > > > >====================================== > > > > > >POETICAL CORRECTNESS > > > > I find in cases like this that whatever sentiments the writer may have, and > > whatever sentiments I as reader may have, when I come across so many > factual > > errors in a short piece I am automatically suspicious of whatever > > conclusions the author may draw. It simply makes me believe whoever the > > writer is or whatever he is writing on, he doesn't really know what he's > > talking about. > > > > Moira Russell > > Seattle, WA > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 28 15:06:50 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R. Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 15:06:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] POETICAL CORRECTNESS References: <5.0.0.25.2.20010628141511.00a4f050@mail.verizon.net> Message-ID: <3B3B804A.6DAA@ix.netcom.com> Anastasios, I think your summary statement on Aldridge is accurate. I'd like to add that this essay in that collection, The Writer in the University as well as the following one, The Heresy of Literary Manners, also serve as a cautionary tale for the destructive insularity of forms and movements. As the engine of academic poetry was stoked it produced more of the kind cloned aspirants, grants, publishing, institutions, prizes, theories and positions none of which directed its energies toward the quality of the poetry being produced or its impact on a wider audience. In fact, the opposite happened, and every poet became "great": it became (is) a renaissance outside of reality--a total absurdity. There was nothing "difficult" about any of the poetry produced by these academics. In fact, it structure was demonstrably declarative, often formal, and its subject more often than not domestic. What's so cynical about Lind's piece is that he is counting on the ignorance of his reader not to know or, even more cynically, when they do know, not to acknowledge, his stream of errors and distortions. Movements often produce short term, small-time public success for some. But as Aldridge attempts to point out, none of this is done for the greater good of poetry and nothing of these movements seems worthy of remembrance by the public at large. CP ANASTASIOS KOZAITIS wrote: > > A friend of mine, who is an editor, said this: > > "Hardly anyone writes poetry in the US other than professors--and > hardly > anybody reads it, other than the professors who write it. " > > What is remarkable is that everything in the statement is upside down. > > Contrasted with US vitality the situation in Britain is pitiful. And > in the > US the spread of the audience outside academic walls has been the big > story > of the last 10 - 12 years. > > Now, what I think points to a book that Carlo brought to my attention > a few months ago: John Aldredge's In Search of Heresy: American > Literature in an Age of Conformity. Aldredge (and correct me if I'm > mistaken, Carlo) claims that academia through the pressures of publish > or perish turned academic scholars into more commercial writers and > through this homogenized and diluted a great deal of American > literature after WWII. > > I'm surprised that Lind brings Rexroth up in his essay. The irony of > someone like Lind bringing up Rexroth should not be lost. Rexroth > would have chewed him out if he'd read that article. The more we > delve into the article, the more we see how irresponsible an article > it is. Why would Lind publish this article in the UK? Would he > publish something like that in the US? > > --Ak > > At 12:43 PM 6/28/01, you wrote: > > Here, here Moira. Lind's article is monumentally ignorant of > poetry, and > a slap in the face to all of us who care about it. > > (There are currently dozen's of radio broadcasts around this > great > nation featuring poets. The poet Jack Foley who has a weekly > radio > program in San Francisco recently sent me a tape of an > interview he did > with-------------------------Dana Gioia on his radio show. > Lind does > point out that Pound had his own radio show but that was > before FM > became popular. I guess we could split hairs over national > syndication.) > CP > > Moira Russell wrote: > > > > >From: ANASTASIOS KOZAITIS > > >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >Subject: [New-Poetry] POETICAL CORRECTNESS > > >Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 14:40:56 -0400 > > > > > >Has anyone read this, yet? > > > > > >====================================== > > > > > >POETICAL CORRECTNESS > > > > I find in cases like this that whatever sentiments the > writer may have, and > > whatever sentiments I as reader may have, when I come > across so many factual > > errors in a short piece I am automatically suspicious of > whatever > > conclusions the author may draw. It simply makes me > believe whoever the > > writer is or whatever he is writing on, he doesn't really > know what he's > > talking about. > > > > Moira Russell > > Seattle, WA > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > http://explorer.msn.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jdavis at panix.com Thu Jun 28 15:33:56 2001 From: jdavis at panix.com (Jordan Davis) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 15:33:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] domestic subjects In-Reply-To: <3B3B804A.6DAA@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: Carlo - Would you foreclose on all literature on domestic subjects? (And am I wrong to parse "domestic subjects" as household dramas of everyday life? In which case, aren't you, um, disdaining about half to two-thirds of human experience?) Jordan From johnbrehm at mindspring.com Thu Jun 28 15:53:43 2001 From: johnbrehm at mindspring.com (johnbrehm at mindspring.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 15:53:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] domestic subjects Message-ID: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote: > Carlo - Would you foreclose on all literature on domestic subjects? (And am I wrong to parse "domestic subjects" as household dramas of everyday life? In which case, aren't you, um, disdaining about half to two-thirds of human experience?) Jordan Good point. It's always amazes me that people still make the argument against subject matter. In this case, the implication seems to be that if only all these poets writing about "domestic" subjects started hiking the Alps or doing surrealistic interior monologues they'd produce better poems. They might, but I'd guess choice of subject matter is less a problem than the quality of imagination one brings to it. Or maybe it's a failure of imagination not to reach for more varied subjects? John Brehm _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Jun 28 15:59:47 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 15:59:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: POETICAL CORRECTNESS References: Message-ID: <3B3B8CB3.34EE@nut-n-but.net> Yes, Moira, Heaney would disagree with me about who cares about his nationality. My point was that his nationality ought to be of little interest to a reader of an essay on poetry. I also think it quite possible for a writer to say important things while getting irrelevant details wrong. So, no, I don't believe that Lind's "knowing very little about poetry" is *necessarily* demonstrated through his (considerable) inaccuracy. I think what that what mostly demonstrates that is the poetry, whole schools of it, that he doesn't mention; his factual inaccuracies only demonstrate carelessness. --Bob G. From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 28 16:05:37 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R. Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 16:05:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] domestic subjects References: Message-ID: <3B3B8E11.4111@ix.netcom.com> You people so overestimate my power! I'm flattered. Flaccid, flaccid, flaccid, flaccid, flaccid, flaccid, flaccid, flaccid, flaccid, flaccid, flaccid........................................... Davis wrote: > > Carlo - > > Would you foreclose on all literature on domestic subjects? (And am I > wrong to parse "domestic subjects" as household dramas of everyday life? > In which case, aren't you, um, disdaining about half to two-thirds of > human experience?) > > Jordan > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From moira_russell at hotmail.com Thu Jun 28 16:12:57 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 12:12:57 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: POETICAL CORRECTNESS Message-ID: I don't think distorting something Robert Lowell said to mean "writing metrical verse is too hard" (Robert Lowell! of all people!) is an "irrelevant detail." God (and the Devil) are in the details. If someone makes one or two slips in an article, _that's_ carelessness. If they constantly distort and misrepresent easily checked facts -- that's something else altogether. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Thu Jun 28 16:53:55 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R. Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 16:53:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Did you come to the theatre to see her dice carrots or shov............................? Message-ID: <3B3B9963.619E@ix.netcom.com> As the engine of academic poetry was stoked it produced more of its kind, cloned aspirants, grants, publishing, institutions, prizes, material comfort, domesticity, theories and positions none of which directed its energies toward the quality of the poetry being produced or its impact on a wider audience. In fact, the opposite happened, and every poet became "great": it became (is) a renaissance outside of reality--a total absurdity. From TerryP17 at aol.com Thu Jun 28 17:09:12 2001 From: TerryP17 at aol.com (TerryP17 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 17:09:12 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: POETICAL CORRECTNESS Message-ID: <18.e9242b9.286cf6f9@aol.com> Tad-- You wrote: <> Two threads here, the second one first. Mike Lind, like Brock, made a very public exit from the right a few years ago. Whether genuine or not, such dramatic exits are always meant to score points with the lit'ry and political establishment and sometimes do, although the establishment is more likely to distrust the "ex" conservative and thus not let him or her into the charmed circles anyway, leaving the heretic in even worse shape than when the exercise started. The suspicion among your new "friends" is always there that your "conversion experience" was not genuine. If you really like invective, you ought to check out a few of David Horowitz' old columns on Lind in the archives of frontpagemag.com. Makes the comments on Lind on this listserv seem like they came out of a convent. Re: the Conservative vs. the professors stuff. I would say it is probably a strategy of the Right in that it's done, although it probably doesn't get to the heart of the matter. It's not really a concerted and planned strategy in the sense that a whole bunch of Conservatives have sat down and said, yeah, let's get all the professors. But it is a known and convenient fact that approximately 95% or more of all English professors, in surveys done by almost anyone, define themselves as Liberals and generally vote Democratic. It is genuinely something the English profs themselves can't refute and thus becomes a really convenient opening for Conservative attack, because it is axiomatic. English departments make matters even more tempting for Conservatives by continuing to do their very best to keep Conservative assistant profs out of the tenure process, and they've really been incredibly effective at this for at least a quarter century. I oughta know. Of course, where you go with this is another thing. I think Michael got lost. <> Totally correct observation. In fact, Gioia is about the only recognized Formalista who is NOT an academic. Tends to mess with Michael's argument. A professor-poet? Simplistically, a professor who writes poetry, more specifically one who is known for this. Even this is a little complicated. Some professor-poets started out as poets, realized they'd starve, so got academic credentials and a teaching slot so they could still do poetry and have a roof over their head. Other professor-poets may have started out as profs and gotten into poetry. It's hard to generalize. You could say, though, with reasonable accuracy, that most folks who are "acknowledged" as poets today are probably involved in teaching it, at least part-time. <> I wasn't aware that you and I shared the academic blackballing experience Tad, and I'm sorry to hear you got whacked, too. Your points above are well-taken, and no, it would probably be difficult to discern where your writings placed you just based on the writings alone. We could maybe call you an ex-professor-poet. And that would make me an ex-professor-former-poet because I don't write poetry anymore. No easy categories here, I think, even though it looks easy to start with. That's what I mean when I say Michael got lost. There was a potential argument there but it never got developed. --Terry P From JforJames at aol.com Thu Jun 28 18:02:37 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 18:02:37 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] POETICAL CORRECTNESS Message-ID: In a message dated 6/27/01 7:25:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kellogg at duke.edu writes: > Indeed, "The Waste Land" was made popular by non-academics, not by the > "professors" Lind derides. I'm reminded of Edmund Wilson's observation in > _Axel's Castle_: "where some of even the finest intelligences of the elder > generation read "The Waste Land" with blankness or laughter, the young had > recognized a poet." > Some of you may have heard Susan Standberg's interview with Walter Mostely (of Easy Rollins mystery series fame). Mosley picked the Four Quartets as his selection of piece of writing that was both important to and an influence on him. Just a bit of anecdotal evidence that Eliot's poetry may have some surprisingly engaging effects on readers one might not suspect it would. Finnegan From tadrichards at prodigy.net Thu Jun 28 19:26:13 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 19:26:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: POETICAL CORRECTNESS References: <18.e9242b9.286cf6f9@aol.com> Message-ID: <002d01c10029$b979a220$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> I come from Woodstock, NY, which is a true bastion of non-professor-poets, and is also a place where no one has heard of the New Formalists. The Beats still reign supreme here. Ed Sanders and Janine Pommy Vega are our two most celebrated poets. Mikhail Horowitz, in my opinion the most brilliant poet-satirist of our time (relating back to an earlier thread about poet-humorists) is another prominent figure, and to the extent that he's related to any school, it would be the beats. Bukowski is held in high esteem here. The late Ray Bremser was esteemed. Among younger poets, Antler would be a name to reckon with. Around here, if you mentioned professor-poets, they'd assume you were talking about people who write in rhyme and meter. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 5:09 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: POETICAL CORRECTNESS > Tad-- > > You wrote: > > < of epithets (professor-poet) is a strategy of attack I've noticed from the > right (although you say Lind is a conservative apostate...like Brock?)>> > > Two threads here, the second one first. Mike Lind, like Brock, made a very public exit from the right a few years ago. Whether genuine or not, such dramatic exits are always meant to score points with the lit'ry and political establishment and sometimes do, although the establishment is more likely to distrust the "ex" conservative and thus not let him or her into the charmed circles anyway, leaving the heretic in even worse shape than when the exercise started. The suspicion among your new "friends" is always there that your "conversion experience" was not genuine. If you really like invective, you ought to check out a few of David Horowitz' old columns on Lind in the archives of frontpagemag.com. Makes the comments on Lind on this listserv seem like they came out of a convent. > > Re: the Conservative vs. the professors stuff. I would say it is probably a strategy of the Right in that it's done, although it probably doesn't get to the heart of the matter. It's not really a concerted and planned strategy in the sense that a whole bunch of Conservatives have sat down and said, yeah, let's get all the professors. But it is a known and convenient fact that approximately 95% or more of all English professors, in surveys done by almost anyone, define themselves as Liberals and generally vote Democratic. It is genuinely something the English profs themselves can't refute and thus becomes a really convenient opening for Conservative attack, because it is axiomatic. English departments make matters even more tempting for Conservatives by continuing to do their very best to keep Conservative assistant profs out of the tenure process, and they've really been incredibly effective at this for at least a quarter century. I oughta know. > > Of course, where you go with this is another thing. I think Michael got lost. > > < are professors, which is inaccurate, and he definitely assumes professorship > for some free verse poets who aren't professors.>> > > Totally correct observation. In fact, Gioia is about the only recognized Formalista who is NOT an academic. Tends to mess with Michael's argument. A professor-poet? Simplistically, a professor who writes poetry, more specifically one who is known for this. Even this is a little complicated. Some professor-poets started out as poets, realized they'd starve, so got academic credentials and a teaching slot so they could still do poetry and have a roof over their head. Other professor-poets may have started out as profs and gotten into poetry. It's hard to generalize. You could say, though, with reasonable accuracy, that most folks who are "acknowledged" as poets today are probably involved in teaching it, at least part-time. > > < after graduate school (Iowa), then I got blacklisted and my teaching career > was ended. So I became a non-professor-poet, but not by choice -- I would > have preferred to go on being a professor-poet. So what does that make me? A > genuine non-professor-poet, or a sham? After 17 years of editing skin > magazines and business magazines, writing historical novels and mysteries, I > went back to teaching part time, and writing non-fiction books on money > management. Last year, after about 17 years of that, I taught full time. > This fall...I don't know yet. Could Lind read my work and figure out what > was professor-poetry and what was non-professor-poetry? Would he assume that > the formal work was done when I was a non-professor, and the free verse, or > loose accentual stuff, was done while I was professoring (which would be a > faulty assumption)?:>> > > I wasn't aware that you and I shared the academic blackballing experience Tad, and I'm sorry to hear you got whacked, too. Your points above are well-taken, and no, it would probably be difficult to discern where your writings placed you just based on the writings alone. We could maybe call you an ex-professor-poet. And that would make me an ex-professor-former-poet because I don't write poetry anymore. No easy categories here, I think, even though it looks easy to start with. That's what I mean when I say Michael got lost. There was a potential argument there but it never got developed. > > --Terry P > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From griffinbaker at home.com Fri Jun 29 02:12:10 2001 From: griffinbaker at home.com (Mark Baker) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 23:12:10 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Accessible Blurbs References: Message-ID: <3B3C1C3A.1A7CEE95@home.com> Try this, Jordan, for a sampling, of poetry that's all sampling, and a review: http://www.poets.ca/pshstore/cata2/cain.htm Just as McCaffery said, or blurbed, or rubber-stamped. Jordan Davis wrote: > I'll say this for Steve McCaffery, for a skinny old Canadian guy he sure > can transgress with the best of them, I mean up there with Johnny Rotten. > At a reading at Poetry City in New York, Steve interrupted one of his > poems by holding the page up to his face and sticking his tongue through > the page. That gibberishy blurb for "torontology" has to be him putting > his tongue somewhere else, i.e. his cheek. Let's say he meant it though; > it sounds like "Torontology" deals with corporation and government > language and other abuses of accessible language ("transparency"), while > mainly just fooling around with words ("spiral rave"). I can see how the > fake-authoritative use of jargon might still put people off -- but *you* > try and say something meaningful in a blurb. Every group has their > particular rubber stamp/territory mark -- Mark Baker, will you be so kind > as to hunt down a representative sampling? > > Jordan Davis > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Jun 29 11:26:12 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 11:26:12 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Light Verse Message-ID: Light, a quarterly of light and humorous verse, is featured on Poetry Daily today, 6/25: www.poems.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From DICK at watson.ibm.com Fri Jun 29 15:31:05 2001 From: DICK at watson.ibm.com (DICK at watson.ibm.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 01 15:31:05 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] academic blackballing Message-ID: <200106291934.PAA10046@sp1n189at0.watson.ibm.com> Terry P and Tad, you've both mentioned suffering this. If you'd rather not elaborate I certainly understand, in which case please ignore this. But, as a citizen, I'm very curious about what brings such a thing about, and how it operates. Richard From JackKerouac25 at aol.com Fri Jun 29 17:20:48 2001 From: JackKerouac25 at aol.com (JackKerouac25 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 17:20:48 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Interrogations at Noon Message-ID: <79.16e18e17.286e4b30@aol.com> Not sure about one-line-units in Gioia but I also find his poems mostly monotonous. He has a very standard mind, it seems to me. --Bob G. Bob, What exactly do you mean by "monotonous?" I find Gioia's poems fascinating, especially his work in _The Gods of Winter_. Please, if you will, elaborate on his supposed "standard mind." I'd enjoy seeing more of what you specifically think. Jeff Newberry University of West Florida From JackKerouac25 at aol.com Fri Jun 29 17:35:47 2001 From: JackKerouac25 at aol.com (JackKerouac25 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 17:35:47 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] academic blackballing Message-ID: <20.18959d99.286e4eb3@aol.com> Terry P and Tad, you've both mentioned suffering this. If you'd rather not elaborate I certainly understand, in which case please ignore this. But, as a citizen, I'm very curious about what brings such a thing about, and how it operates. Richard Richard, Although I'm only an adjunct, I have found that I, too, wind up being left out because of my conservative views. While I'm not a Rush Limbaugh-quoting die-hard literalist, I do have some personal and religious views that mark me as the bad guy in some academic circles. What I'm trying to figure out is this: In the world of academia, profs and students often talk about individual rights. However, once a person identifies himself as conservative, he's almost immediately blacklisted. It seems to me that some people are as blind as they accuse others to be. Here's to wishing I hadn't hit the "send" button, Jeff Newberry University of West Florida From moira_russell at hotmail.com Fri Jun 29 17:58:05 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 13:58:05 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] academic blackballing Message-ID: >What I'm trying to figure out is this: In the world of academia, profs and >students often talk about individual rights. However, once a person >identifies himself as conservative, he's almost immediately blacklisted. I wouldn't really identify myself as a "conservative," but I certainly had differing views from most of my classmates when I was in graduate school and a TA. The intolerance practiced in the name of tolerance was also striking to me, although certainly not everyone of leftist/liberal/whatever views was this way. However, it did lead to self-censorship of a sort that, rather than get into endless fights, one classmate of mine and I remained quiet during political discussions in class -- so much so that it wasn't until the end of the semester in an out-of-class talk that we discovered we both had the same political views. This was also about the time a "hate-free speech zone" was being considered on campus among other PC-type stuff. There seemed to be a big emphasis on opposing camps, with battle lines being drawn up very firmly, and not much room for communication. -- I'm aware this is certainly a big generalization, and it wasn't as though there was an organized monolithic force against differing views. But the irony of suppressing differing views in the service of multiculturalism was a particularly bitter one. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jun 29 19:02:58 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 19:02:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Interrogations at Noon References: <79.16e18e17.286e4b30@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B3D0922.174E@nut-n-but.net> > Not sure about one-line-units in Gioia but I also find his > poems mostly monotonous. He has a very standard mind, it > seems to me. > > --Bob G. > > Bob, > > What exactly do you mean by "monotonous?" I find Gioia's poems fascinating, especially his work in _The Gods of Winter_. Please, if you will, elaborate on his supposed "standard mind." I'd enjoy seeing more of what you specifically think. > Jeff Newberry Oops, caught again. My remark was offhand. I'm not up to backing it up with examples. I simply find his poems predictible in just about all ways--but I've only seen the ones in the New Criterion, and the few in reviews mentioned in this forum, and the poems of his quoted here. No fresh techniques, few fresh subjects, tone, word-combinations . . . As for his standard mind, I was thinking more of his Atlantic Monthly essay, and things he's said about poetry elsewhere. All stuff I'd heard many times elsewhere--and didn't think much of ever. But I'm not being fair to him--and AM envious of him for having gotten his views into wide circulation. --Bob G. From moira_russell at hotmail.com Fri Jun 29 19:07:57 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 15:07:57 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Interrogations at Noon Message-ID: >Oops, caught again. My remark was offhand. I'm not up to >backing it up with examples. I simply find his poems >predictible in just about all ways--but I've only seen the >ones in the New Criterion, and the few in reviews mentioned in >this forum, and the poems of his quoted here. No fresh techniques, >few fresh subjects, tone, word-combinations . . . Any specifics you can think of? Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Jun 29 20:20:39 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 20:20:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Interrogations at Noon References: Message-ID: <3B3D1B56.584F@nut-n-but.net> No specific examples of unfreshness from Gioia, and I'm not up to finding any of his poems and thinking about them. He rarely writes anything bad, just little that I would consider inspired. --Bob G. From wasanthony at yahoo.com Fri Jun 29 21:34:11 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 18:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Gioia Message-ID: <20010630013411.38910.qmail@web12105.mail.yahoo.com> Found a substantial representation of Gioia on the web, and what follows is just a part of it. I'd like to comment on them but that will have to wait until tomorrow. - Jim ----------------- Insomnia Now you hear what the house has to say. Pipes clanking, water running in the dark, the mortgaged walls shifting in discomfort, and voices mounting in an endless drone of small complaints like the sounds of a family that year by year you've learned how to ignore. But now you must listen to the things you own, all that you've worked for these past years, the murmur of property, of things in disrepair, the moving parts about to come undone, and twisting in the sheets remember all the faces you could not bring yourself to love. How many voices have escaped you until now, the venting furnace, the floorboards underfoot, the steady accusations of the clock numbering the minutes no one will mark. The terrible clarity this moment brings, the useless insight, the unbroken dark. Dana Gioia found at: http://www.poemtree.com/Insomnia.htm -------- Aesthetic pleasure WHY SHOULD ANYONE but a poet care about the problems of poetry? What possible relevance does this art form have to contemporary society? In a better world, poetry would need no justification beyond the sheer splendour of its own existence. Children know this essential truth when they ask to hear their favourite nursery rhymes again and again. Aesthetic pleasure needs no justification. But the rest of society has mostly forgotten the value of poetry. Anyone who hopes to broaden poetry?s audience faces a daunting challenge. How does one persuade justly skeptical readers that poetry still matters? THE HISTORY OF art tells the same story over and over. As art forms develop, they establish conventions that guide creation, performance, instruction, even analysis. But eventually these conventions grow stale. They begin to stand between the art and its audience. Although much wonderful poetry is being written, the poetry establishment is locked into a series of exhausted conventions ? outmoded ways of presenting, discussing, editing, and teaching poetry. Educational institutions have codified them into a stifling bureaucratic etiquette that enervates the art. These conventions may once have made sense, but today they imprison poetry in an intellectual ghetto. It is time to experiment, time to leave the well-ordered but stuffy classroom, time to restore a vitality to poetry and unleash the energy now trapped in the sub-culture. There is nothing to lose. Society has already told us that poetry is dead. Let?s build a funeral pyre out of the desiccated conventions piled around us and watch the ancient, spangle-feathered, unkillable phoenix rise from the ashes. Dana Gioia PLANTING A SEQUOIA All afternoon my brothers and I have worked in the orchard, Digging this hole, laying you into it, carefully packing the soil. Rain blackened the horizon, but cold winds kept it over the Pacific, And the sky above us stayed the dull gray Of an old year coming to an end. In Sicily a father plants a tree to celebrate his first son?s birth ? An olive or a fig tree ? a sign that the earth has once more life to bear. I would have done the same, proudly laying new stock into my father?s orchard. A green sapling rising among the twisted apple boughs, A promise of new fruit in other autumns. But today we kneel in the cold planting you, our native giant, Defying the practical custom of our fathers, Wrapping in your roots a lock of hair, a piece of an infant?s birth cord, All that remains above earth of a first-born son, A few stray atoms brought back to the elements. We will give you what we can ? our labour and our soil, Water drawn from the earth when the skies fail, Nights scented with the ocean fog, days softened by the circuit of bees. We plant you in the corner of the grove, bathed in western light, A slender shoot against the sunset. And when our family is no more, all of his unborn brothers dead, Every niece and nephew scattered, the house torn down, His mother?s beauty ashes in the air, I want you to stand among strangers, all young and ephemeral to you, Silently keeping the secret of your birth. BECOMING A REDWOOD Stand in a field long enough, and the sounds start up again. The crickets, the invisible toad who claims that change is possible, And all the other life too small to name. they merge into the single voice of a summer hill. Yes, it?s hard to stand still, hour after hour, fixed as a fencepost, hearing the steers snort in the dark pasture, smelling the manure. And paralysed by the mystery of how a stone can bear to be a stone, the pain the grass endures breaking through the earth?s crust. Unimaginable the redwoods on the far hill, rooted for centuries, the living wood grown tall and thickened with a hundred thousand days of light. The old windmill creaks in perfect time to the wind shaking the miles of pasture grass, and the last farmhouse light goes off. Something moves nearby. Coyotes hunt these hills and packs of feral dogs. But standing here at night accepts all that. You are your own pale shadow in the quarter moon, moving more slowly than the crippled stars, part of the moonlight as the moonlight falls, Part of the grass that answers the wind, part of the midnight?s watchfulness that knows there is no silence but when danger comes. Dana Gioia Both poems have been taken from The Gods of Winter published by Peterloo Poets from Resurgence issue 204 California Hills in August I can imagine someone who found these fields unbearable, who climbed the hillside in the heat, cursing the dust, cracking the brittle weeds underfoot, wishing a few more trees for shade. An Easterner especially, who would scorn the meagerness of summer, the dry twisted shapes of black elm, scrub oak, and chaparral, a landscape August has already drained of green. One who would hurry over the clinging thistle, foxtail, golden poppy, knowing everything was just a weed, unable to conceive that these trees and sparse brown bushes were alive. And hate the bright stillness of the noon without wind, without motion. the only other living thing a hawk, hungry for prey, suspended in the blinding, sunlit blue. And yet how gentle it seems to someone raised in a landscape short of rain? the skyline of a hill broken by no more trees than one can count, the grass, the empty sky, the wish for water. Dana Gioia From tadrichards at prodigy.net Fri Jun 29 22:10:07 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001 22:10:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] academic blackballing References: <200106291934.PAA10046@sp1n189at0.watson.ibm.com> Message-ID: <00b301c10109$c88b7280$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> In my case, it was the mid-60s, a time during which protesting the Vietnam War was not yet as accepted position on most college campuses. So I was frowned on for that, but it wasn't the big issue. The big issue was the dreaded Free University. I kinow it sounds impossible corny and dated now, students wanting courses that had more relevance, but the actual demands they were making sound incredible to today's students. They actually weren't trying to tear the university down, or ban the teaching of dead white males, or eliminate required courses. They just wanted the school to give them classroom space to pursue a wider range of courses -- in other words, they were protesting for the right to take more classes. But it was seen as a devastating threat by the school, and since I thought it sounded like a good idea, and supported it, I was out in front, getting my head lopped off. One of my students -- I can't remember why -- occupied the administration building as a protest. I went over to the president's home to suggest that it might be a good gesture to go and talk to him, but the president was having none of it. The president's house was decorated all over with pictures of Gandhi, and I have never had such an overwhelming desire to hit someone over the head with a picture of Gandhi. I lasted two years there, after which I was informed that I would not be coming back. I could resign, or they'd fire me. They didn't want to fire me, because I was pretty popular, and they were afraid of the repercussions. So they made a deal with me. I was a terrific young teacher, I had a promising career ahead of me, they wished me well, and if I would resign, they'd make sure I got the best references. But they lied. They stuck a poison pen letter in with my references, and by the time I discovered it (through subterfuge - you weren't allowed to see your own CV), my reputation had been destroyed throughout the academic world, and there was no chance of my ever getting another job. So I figured if I was too dangerous a radical for academia, I might as well go to work for IBM. Which I did. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Friday, June 29, 2001 3:31 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] academic blackballing > Terry P and Tad, you've both mentioned suffering this. > > If you'd rather not elaborate I certainly understand, in > which case please ignore this. > > But, as a citizen, I'm very curious about what brings such > a thing about, and how it operates. > > Richard > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry