From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Dec 1 00:22:57 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 00:22:57 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] questions Message-ID: <166.4d93a80.2939c331@cs.com> In a message dated 11/29/2001 8:20:10 PM Central Standard Time, duemer at clarkson.edu writes: > Sam, are you saying the lyric voice is somehow subsidiary to narrative & > epic? Or derived from it? What about the Song of Songs? What about the > ancient non-narrative traditions of China & India? Or are you not making > universal claims? > > I may be wrong, but I think the tribal voice (as opposed to the personal one) must come first. And the tribal voice tells stories of the tribe, not of the poet. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Dec 1 00:43:17 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 00:43:17 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Questions/Kooser Message-ID: <170.4db0ad3.2939c7f5@cs.com> This has been worked over pretty well, and I'm sorry to jump in at such a late date (been offline a day or so). About all I can add is that if I'm going to lie a little, I write in the lyric mode; if I'm going to lie a lot, I write a dramatic monologue. I'm not sure what I'm doing when writing a narrative except maybe lying low. Someone (maybe Ciardi or John Nims) once said, "A poem lies its way to the truth." That seems reasonable enough. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From adead_poet at hotmail.com Sat Dec 1 01:17:51 2001 From: adead_poet at hotmail.com (dead poet) Date: Sat, 01 Dec 2001 00:17:51 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Questions/Kooser Message-ID: i think that you do what you need for the art to be the best it can. i don't think it really matters whether or not you experienced what you are writing. it's probably helpful with certain subject material, but sometimes you have to bend or twist or change things because the piece demands it. really all i have to contribute to the arguement is a quote from picasso: The artist must know the manner whereby to convince others of the truthfulness of his lies --Pablo Picasso jason _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From wjbat at conncoll.edu Sat Dec 1 04:27:38 2001 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 01:27:38 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] questions In-Reply-To: <166.4d93a80.2939c331@cs.com> Message-ID: <20011201012738.002639@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> Rsgwynn1 wrote: >I may be wrong, but I think the tribal voice (as opposed to the personal one) >must come first. And the tribal voice tells stories of the tribe, not of the >poet. Sam, the tribe is made up of cries of love and pain. The stories might be what makes them a tribe, but I doubt they'd be at the same fire if they hadn't heard some true song to assure them that there were other humans there. That's lyric. I'm skeptical about claims of primacy either way. Wendy ----------------------------------------- The night may be dark, but the apples have been counted. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Dec 1 05:10:41 2001 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 05:10:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Questions/Kooser References: Message-ID: <002001c17a50$6f5e2de0$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> > really all i > have to contribute to the arguement is a quote from picasso: > > The artist must know the manner whereby to convince others of the > truthfulness of his lies > --Pablo Picasso > > > jason > Similarly, one of my sayings is that poetry is the appropriate misuse of words. --Bob G. From JforJames at aol.com Sat Dec 1 15:28:40 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 15:28:40 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Questions/Kooser Message-ID: In a message dated 11/30/01 2:55:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: >An interesting variation on these questions: What if--as an Australian author recently did--a writer authors a novel in the voice of a racial minority--and perhaps even assumes a fictive persona as a minority author, complete with authentic-sounding pseudonym. If the novel wins rave reviews and literary awards on the basis of its good writing and portrayal of, say, aboriginal life, and the author later turns out to be a white Anglo woman, does that invalidate the reviews? and should it be a cause for the return of literary awards on the ground of fraud? Or can the author say that all writers employ a fictive voice, and that he or she has simply been better at it than most? And what about the recent practice of certain New York editors, who call up novelists whose work they've decided they might print to see if the author really is a member of the racial minority the work in hand suggests?< PauI, that does change the stakes once again. At this stage in our history and cultural development, I'm inclined to be in favor of holding open a certain amount of exclusive literary space for those with a "first person investment" in matter's of race (& gender/sexuality, to some degree). To me there is something a little unseemly, given the relatively recent bar to these literatures, that with barely a foot in the door, so to speak, suddenly a queue of white writers start lining up...saying "I feel your pain; I'm just like you." Hang back, for godsakes....it's not about a facility for mimicry... a real cry must be first heard. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sat Dec 1 15:53:48 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2001 15:53:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Questions/Kooser References: Message-ID: <001d01c17aaa$46890b60$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Diane Wakoski's "Justice Is Reason Enough," about the suicide of her brother with whom she had an incestuous relationship, is entirely made up. I believe lyric poets have exactly the same license to write fiction that any other artist has. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "dead poet" To: Sent: Saturday, December 01, 2001 1:17 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Questions/Kooser > i think that you do what you need for the art to be the best it can. i don't > think it really matters whether or not you experienced what you are writing. > it's probably helpful with certain subject material, but sometimes you have > to bend or twist or change things because the piece demands it. really all i > have to contribute to the arguement is a quote from picasso: > > The artist must know the manner whereby to convince others of the > truthfulness of his lies > --Pablo Picasso > > > jason > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Dec 2 09:12:34 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 09:12:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: "November Talks" by Michael Palmer Message-ID: November Talks for Bob Perelman Certain faces seem to be ours pieces of April broken from the main part window and door entirely ours who dream of the path of ice beneath shade, sleep flowering casually over narrow shoulders and wheels of a given day within wheels A headless man is crossing the road as we remember the earliest shore outlined by cloud, sleep wet to our touch, material of tears offered in sips so many of us here, so many missing who might have been here --Michael Palmer Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html From cstroffo at earthlink.net Sun Dec 2 09:55:05 2001 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 06:55:05 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Golding on "Romantic theories of poetry" References: Message-ID: <3C0A40C8.E0BF9377@earthlink.net> Alan--- Very good points, and with wider application than the specific instances you mention. First, yes, remember when I was first becoming aware of the "poetry wars" of the mid-to-late 80s and encountering the lang. pos, who were, at the time, generally much more dogmatic about their anti-Romanticism, and the phrases "we must write ourselves out of Romanticism" were hurled around. It seemed to me that many of them mistook the poetry for the THEORY, the theory that, sure, may have found its root in Wordsworth's (notorious) notion, but found its HOME more in certain CRITICS, and ultimately, it seems to me now (as it did to me then) that what is often called "Romanticism" is actually but a moment, or aspect, or (to employ a dramatic term), a character, in the poetry of the "romantics." (for remember for instance, most of the canonizing critics of the "movement" had to marginalize Shelley's more public, "political" (in the "vulgar" sense) poetry from his achievement in order to put forth THEIR Shelley.... Second, as for Period style. It's a very sobering. humbling thought, to realize this, especially in an era of so-called originality, but it's no less applicable to those with affinities to (or influenced by) Merwin in the 60s, than those writing the currently fashionable fragmented lyric today---of course, we all have our different ideas of what is "fashionable" and insofar as the term is used with derision, it's often "exactly what we ourselves DON'T DO", but it's a bigger question, for there's obviously a plurality of fashions, but I still find it, in many ways, for me personally, to read writers from other eras perhaps more than writers from our own, for despite the alleged "wide-range" of contemporary fashions in American poetry, it seems that the spectrum (even if we include that wide range that Bob G. keeps pleaing for), is somewhat narrow, and even if the "end-result" (in terms of "product") of our own work ends up looking like "contemporary poetry" or "excellent scribbling in a period style" at least there's the hope that we may speak to some "outside" and, these days, I think reading the so-called "High Romantics" may be helpful in pointing toward this in a way it wasn't when they were more "fashionable" or "official".....but then again this is just my own personal beginning map, and I don't want to repeat the dogmatisms of the lang. pos, or Eliot, or whoever,.... chris "Alan C. Golding" wrote: > When Joe Duemer writes that the idea of poetry as personal lyric effusion derives from "Romantic theories of poetry," I'm inclined to stress the term "theories." That is, poetry as personal effusion seems to derive as much (or more) from Romantic *theories*--most notoriously, Wordsworth's spontaneous overflow of powerful feelings--as from Romantic *practice*. Granted the obvious exceptions, all those moments of ceasing upon the midnight with no pain and falling upon the thorns of life, the major Romantics wrote a huge amount of poetry that could not be meaningfully circumscribed by terms like "personal," "lyric," or "effusive" (which circumscription Joe was not intending, I realize). > > On writing in "the voice of poetry": how do we distinguish this from the idea of a period style? In the 1960s, for instance, Merwin (in The Lice) or Wright or Bly seemed to a lot of people to be writing in the voice of poetry, when they were actually writing in a period style that they themselves had established and that fairly quickly became dated or recognizable as such. > > Alan Golding > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Dec 2 11:59:55 2001 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 11:59:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Golding on "Romantic theories of poetry" References: <3C0A40C8.E0BF9377@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000801c17b52$c5a145e0$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> Chris: ". . . it seems that the spectrum (even if we include that wide range that Bob G. keeps pleading for), is somewhat narrow . . . The spectrum I'm for is technique-centered; it would include every known form of poetry as technically-defined (though ultimately, I would want it to contain every known kind of poetry by ANY reasonable definition--by which I mean mainly any definition that doesn't let anything whatever be classified as poetry). Aside from that, Chris, could you name a few specific kinds of poetry you feel are missing from the spectrum (and not missing simply because they're part of another spectrum, such as political propaganda, that some of us--I, certainly--would not consider poetry). Apologies if you've already done this in this thread. I've skimmed through it (with interest) but haven't had time to do much more than skim anything lately, so have missed much. --Bob G. From cstroffo at earthlink.net Sun Dec 2 17:56:37 2001 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 14:56:37 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Golding on "Romantic theories of poetry" References: <3C0A40C8.E0BF9377@earthlink.net> <000801c17b52$c5a145e0$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> Message-ID: <3C0AB1A6.9F80B99C@earthlink.net> Bob--- I don't want to create more "fodder" for your characterizations--- I'm mainly interested in the narrowness of the contemporary and, to borrow a term from, Carla Harryman, "the arrogance of the contemporary" (even willing to include myself in that) and the possibility that there may be something (not necessarily 'new') not "dreamt of in (y)our taxonomies." (Well said, ole' mole....?) And nor do I wish to special plead for the propaganda you would call unreasonable (oh g-d forbid poetry not be reasonable) though I don't see any reason not to call, say, Bertolt Brecht poetry any more than somebody who publishes pages nothing but a 20" letter N (but this is a secondary argument....I'm not really interested in playing out again....) but thanks for writing, Chris Bob Grumman wrote: > Chris: ". . . it seems that the spectrum (even if we include that wide range > that Bob G. keeps pleading for), is somewhat narrow . . . > > The spectrum I'm for is technique-centered; it would include every known > form of poetry as technically-defined (though ultimately, I would want it to > contain every > known kind of poetry by ANY reasonable definition--by which I mean mainly > any > definition that doesn't let anything whatever be classified as poetry). > > Aside from that, Chris, could you name a few specific kinds of poetry you > feel are missing from the spectrum (and not missing simply because they're > part of another spectrum, such as political propaganda, that some of us--I, > certainly--would not consider poetry). Apologies if you've already done > this in this thread. I've skimmed > through it (with interest) but haven't had time to do much more than skim > anything > lately, so have missed much. > > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sun Dec 2 18:09:59 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 18:09:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Golding on "Romantic theories of poetry" References: <3C0A40C8.E0BF9377@earthlink.net> <000801c17b52$c5a145e0$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> <3C0AB1A6.9F80B99C@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <006101c17b86$77cc5b00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Chris...well said. The Old Mole Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino" To: Sent: Sunday, December 02, 2001 5:56 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Golding on "Romantic theories of poetry" > Bob--- > > > I don't want to create more "fodder" for your characterizations--- > I'm mainly interested in the narrowness of the contemporary > and, to borrow a term from, Carla Harryman, "the arrogance of the contemporary" > > (even willing to include myself in that) and the possibility that there may be > something (not necessarily 'new') not "dreamt of in (y)our taxonomies." > > (Well said, ole' mole....?) > > And nor do I wish to special plead for > the propaganda you would call unreasonable > (oh g-d forbid poetry not be reasonable) > though I don't see any reason not to call, say, Bertolt Brecht poetry > any more than somebody who publishes pages nothing but a 20" letter N > (but this is a secondary argument....I'm not really interested in playing out > again....) > > but thanks for writing, > > Chris > > > > Bob Grumman wrote: > > > Chris: ". . . it seems that the spectrum (even if we include that wide range > > that Bob G. keeps pleading for), is somewhat narrow . . . > > > > The spectrum I'm for is technique-centered; it would include every known > > form of poetry as technically-defined (though ultimately, I would want it to > > contain every > > known kind of poetry by ANY reasonable definition--by which I mean mainly > > any > > definition that doesn't let anything whatever be classified as poetry). > > > > Aside from that, Chris, could you name a few specific kinds of poetry you > > feel are missing from the spectrum (and not missing simply because they're > > part of another spectrum, such as political propaganda, that some of us--I, > > certainly--would not consider poetry). Apologies if you've already done > > this in this thread. I've skimmed > > through it (with interest) but haven't had time to do much more than skim > > anything > > lately, so have missed much. > > > > > > --Bob G. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Dec 2 18:47:13 2001 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 18:47:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Golding on "Romantic theories of poetry" References: <3C0A40C8.E0BF9377@earthlink.net> <000801c17b52$c5a145e0$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> <3C0AB1A6.9F80B99C@earthlink.net> <006101c17b86$77cc5b00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <000d01c17b8b$ab6b6fa0$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> > Bob--- > > > > > > I don't want to create more "fodder" for your characterizations--- > > I'm mainly interested in the narrowness of the contemporary > > and, to borrow a term from, Carla Harryman, "the arrogance of the > contemporary" I'm really not trying to start an argument. I just think that anyone who says anything is narrow must think something is missing from it, and ought to have some idea of what it is,and I'm genuinely curious as to what it might be. Contemporary poetry seems to cover just about all subjects I know of, from all points of view I know of--and use just about all modes of expression I'm aware of, too. (My only problem is with the narrowness of the range of reasonably recognized poetry, which is another topic.) --Bob G. From duemer at clarkson.edu Sun Dec 2 19:35:18 2001 From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 19:35:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] period style In-Reply-To: <3C0A40C8.E0BF9377@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Three or four years ago APR ran an interview with Donald Justice in which Dana Gioia asked (as I recall) whether DJ had any regrets about his career. Justice replied that he would have preferred to have lived in a time when there was a "period style" upon which he might have spent his time working variations. Though I studied with Don many years ago & was aware of his reverence for-to take one example-the Elizabethan song writers so admired by Auden-I had always thought of my former teacher as an innovator, so this surprised me. Don had after all been deeply influenced by WCW, who had fought mightily against the influence of Eliot on American poetry. Don said (again, as I recall) that the "poetry wars" made him tired & that he would have liked to have avoided them; a period style would have allowed for that. In a related matter, Don told me once, when I asked him about Gioia's hagiography, "It's nice to have disciples." Certainly, the New Metricalists have had to divide Justice in half so as to honor him. (Bruce Bawer, the conservative literary critic, is the exemplar of this strategy.) jd ===================== Joseph Duemer School of Liberal Arts / 5750 Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699 duemer at clarkson.edu weblog: reading & writing From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Dec 2 19:54:21 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 19:54:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] period style In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Certainly, the New Metricalists > have had to divide Justice in half so as to honor him. (Bruce Bawer, the > conservative literary critic, is the exemplar of this strategy.) > > jd Hmm, did they divide him latitudinally or longitudinally? And did it hurt? Hal "A poet is someone from whom nothing must be taken and to whom nothing must be given." --Anna Akhmatova Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html From griffinbaker at shaw.ca Sun Dec 2 21:00:00 2001 From: griffinbaker at shaw.ca (Mark Baker) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 18:00:00 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: "November Talks" by Michael Palmer References: Message-ID: <3C0ADCA0.37589022@shaw.ca> A poem by Palmer dedicated to Perelman! That seems to guarantee gibberish. Does the "Talks" allude to Perelman's "talks"? Or is this November somehow doing the talking? I have lots of guesses, but little that moves me to answer why I should bother. Sleep flowering on a path of ice is interesting botany. I don't think you like to explain, Hal, and maybe not explaining's the point, but tell, please, what's in this for you. Mark Baker Halvard Johnson wrote: > November Talks > > for Bob Perelman > > Certain faces seem to be ours > pieces of April broken from the main part > window and door entirely ours > who dream of the path of ice > beneath shade, sleep flowering > > casually over narrow shoulders > and wheels of a given day within wheels > A headless man is crossing the road > as we remember the earliest shore > outlined by cloud, sleep > > wet to our touch, material > of tears offered in sips > so many of us > here, so many missing > who might have been here > > --Michael Palmer > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Dec 2 22:15:38 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 22:15:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: "November Talks" by Michael Palmer In-Reply-To: <3C0ADCA0.37589022@shaw.ca> Message-ID: I don't think I'd bother with those questions either, Mark. But what I found there was an interesting constellation of words--much more pleasurable than the piles of essays I've been reading here lately-- thus, I found, read, and passed it on. Ah, the joy of sharing! Hal > A poem by Palmer dedicated to Perelman! That seems to guarantee > gibberish. Does the "Talks" allude to Perelman's "talks"? > Or is this November somehow doing the talking? I have lots of guesses, > but little that moves me to answer why I should > bother. Sleep flowering on a path of ice is interesting botany. I don't > think you like to explain, Hal, and maybe not explaining's the point, > but tell, please, what's in this for you. > > Mark Baker > > Halvard Johnson wrote: > > > November Talks > > > > for Bob Perelman > > > > Certain faces seem to be ours > > pieces of April broken from the main part > > window and door entirely ours > > who dream of the path of ice > > beneath shade, sleep flowering > > > > casually over narrow shoulders > > and wheels of a given day within wheels > > A headless man is crossing the road > > as we remember the earliest shore > > outlined by cloud, sleep > > > > wet to our touch, material > > of tears offered in sips > > so many of us > > here, so many missing > > who might have been here > > > > --Michael Palmer > > > > Hal > > > > Halvard Johnson > > =============== > > email: halvard at earthlink.net > > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Dec 3 05:15:35 2001 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 05:15:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: "November Talks" by Michael Palmer References: Message-ID: <003501c17be3$7389fc20$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> > > > November Talks > > > > > > for Bob Perelman > > > > > > Certain faces seem to be ours > > > pieces of April broken from the main part > > > window and door entirely ours > > > who dream of the path of ice > > > beneath shade, sleep flowering > > > > > > casually over narrow shoulders > > > and wheels of a given day within wheels > > > A headless man is crossing the road > > > as we remember the earliest shore > > > outlined by cloud, sleep > > > > > > wet to our touch, material > > > of tears offered in sips > > > so many of us > > > here, so many missing > > > who might have been here > > > > > > --Michael Palmer I liked this poem enough to put it in my "Interesting Poems Off the Internet" file (where most that Hal posts go). I was surprised to like it since I'm not a fan of Palmer, nor very big on the now-acadominant language poetry. But the jump-cuts and surrealism work here, for me, because I take the poem to be about kinds of sleep--conventional sleep, the sleep of the year that starts in November, and death-- which makes dream logic and verbal expression appropriate. That wouldn't mean much if not that I like many of the images, some of them nicely old-fashionedly lyrical. "the earliest shore outlined by cloud" is one I like a lot, especially in context: shore being something to get to at the end of a voyage as sleep/winter/death is but here also as a shore returned to, which brings back "wheels," and the April past. This is a poem that requires a lot of slow assimilation to find the words for its logic, but its emotional logic seems pretty evident to me. On the other hand, I do find it somewhat more cryptic than it need be. The title seems wrong to me, and confusing. But I'm not confident it won't eventually make good sense. --Bob G. From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Sun Dec 2 22:49:46 2001 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 21:49:46 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Arthur Sze poem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 11/30/01 9:56 PM, Gwyn McVay at gmcvay at patriot.net wrote: >> Maybe it's that "incredibly" that makes this sound so banal. Except where >> it's trying self-consciously to be "poetic," this poem strikes me as rather >> flat. I wonder if others share this feeling. >> >> Paul Lake >> > Paul, stop the presses: you and I have just agreed on something regarding > poetry. It is *precisely* the word "incredibly" that is *so* annoying > here. It's like bad Carl Sagan--a tone of labored special pleading. I like > other poems of Sze's but this one has too many words in it. > > Gwyn (Yes, I know the "too many notes" quote to Mozart) > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Hey, we even like the same quote from Amadeus. I've used it myself on many occasions. This agreeing on stuff is pretty nice. Paul From DICK at watson.ibm.com Mon Dec 3 10:44:00 2001 From: DICK at watson.ibm.com (DICK at watson.ibm.com) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 01 10:44:00 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] "real cry" or "mimicry" Message-ID: <200112031546.fB3FkGU39632@sp1n293en1.watson.ibm.com> It seems to me that the only way to contain this can of worms is to insist on truth in advertising. Publishers must identify their products as selected, to some degree, to right historical wrongs -- if that's the case -- and then of course they have the right to query authors regarding their "identity." Many small mags do advertise that they publish work by and/or and/or . Fair enough. For those that claim to publish I think the commitment that Finnegan describes is inappropriate. The real problem, of course, is what's the default? Richard >>In a message dated 11/30/01 2:55:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, >>paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: >>>An interesting variation on these questions: What if--as an Australian >>author recently did--a writer authors a novel in the voice of a racial >>minority--and perhaps even assumes a fictive persona as a minority author, >>complete with authentic-sounding pseudonym. If the novel wins rave reviews >>and literary awards on the basis of its good writing and portrayal of, say, >>aboriginal life, and the author later turns out to be a white Anglo woman, >>does that invalidate the reviews? and should it be a cause for the return of >>literary awards on the ground of fraud? >> >>Or can the author say that all writers employ a fictive voice, and that he >>or she has simply been better at it than most? >> >>And what about the recent practice of certain New York editors, who call up >>novelists whose work they've decided they might print to see if the author >>really is a member of the racial minority the work in hand suggests?< >> >>PauI, >>that does change the stakes once again. At this stage in our history >>and cultural development, I'm inclined to be in favor of holding open >>a certain amount of exclusive literary space for those with a "first person >>investment" in matter's of race (& gender/sexuality, to some degree). >>To me there is something a little unseemly, given the relatively >>recent bar to these literatures, that with barely a foot in the door, so >>to speak, suddenly a queue of white writers start lining up...saying >>"I feel your pain; I'm just like you." >>Hang back, for godsakes....it's not about a facility for mimicry... >>a real cry must be first heard. >>Finnegan >> >> From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Sun Dec 2 23:45:30 2001 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 22:45:30 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] period style In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 12/2/01 6:35 PM, Joseph Duemer at duemer at clarkson.edu wrote: > Three or four years ago APR ran an interview with Donald Justice in which > Dana Gioia asked (as I recall) whether DJ had any regrets about his career. > Justice replied that he would have preferred to have lived in a time when > there was a "period style" upon which he might have spent his time working > variations. Though I studied with Don many years ago & was aware of his > reverence for-to take one example-the Elizabethan song writers so admired by > Auden-I had always thought of my former teacher as an innovator, so this > surprised me. Don had after all been deeply influenced by WCW, who had > fought mightily against the influence of Eliot on American poetry. Don said > (again, as I recall) that the "poetry wars" made him tired & that he would > have liked to have avoided them; a period style would have allowed for that. > In a related matter, Don told me once, when I asked him about Gioia's > hagiography, "It's nice to have disciples." Certainly, the New Metricalists > have had to divide Justice in half so as to honor him. (Bruce Bawer, the > conservative literary critic, is the exemplar of this strategy.) > > jd > ===================== > Joseph Duemer > School of Liberal Arts / 5750 > Clarkson University > Potsdam NY 13699 > duemer at clarkson.edu > weblog: reading & writing > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > I dunno. Dana Gioia has always written free verse along side his formal verse and proudly advertised the fact. Likewise, I'm classified as a New Formalist, but I've published a bunch of free verse poems, as have many others considered New Formalists. Paul Lake From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu Mon Dec 3 12:22:05 2001 From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Prentiss, Amber) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 12:22:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "real cry" or "mimicry" Message-ID: If, as Paul suggested, the writer used a fictional persona/name attached to the work, perhaps the audience has the right to feel had. After taking a brief look at Aboriginal writers' names, it's as likely that they have an Anglicized name as not. So, the author could write the book, use her own name, and just not add a picture. Assumption as to the author's ethnicity would be on the audience's part. I think, though, if a writer intentionally leads people to believe that she belongs to some group that she doesn't by deliberately picking an ethnic-sounding name, the audience should feel condescended to or undervalued. No one wants to be deliberately had, even if the con produces wonderful results. I don't know if it invalidates the awards or the reviews, but it certainly calls them into question. (Reviews are somewhat spurious, anyway. They may praise someone's accurate portrayal of '[adjective] life,' but how does a reviewer know what's accurate about that sort of life?) -Amber -----Original Message----- From: DICK at watson.ibm.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 12/3/01 10:44 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] "real cry" or "mimicry" It seems to me that the only way to contain this can of worms is to insist on truth in advertising. Publishers must identify their products as selected, to some degree, to right historical wrongs -- if that's the case -- and then of course they have the right to query authors regarding their "identity." Many small mags do advertise that they publish work by and/or and/or . Fair enough. For those that claim to publish I think the commitment that Finnegan describes is inappropriate. The real problem, of course, is what's the default? Richard >>In a message dated 11/30/01 2:55:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, >>paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: >>>An interesting variation on these questions: What if--as an Australian >>author recently did--a writer authors a novel in the voice of a racial >>minority--and perhaps even assumes a fictive persona as a minority author, >>complete with authentic-sounding pseudonym. If the novel wins rave reviews >>and literary awards on the basis of its good writing and portrayal of, say, >>aboriginal life, and the author later turns out to be a white Anglo woman, >>does that invalidate the reviews? and should it be a cause for the return of >>literary awards on the ground of fraud? >> >>Or can the author say that all writers employ a fictive voice, and that he >>or she has simply been better at it than most? >> >>And what about the recent practice of certain New York editors, who call up >>novelists whose work they've decided they might print to see if the author >>really is a member of the racial minority the work in hand suggests?< >> >>PauI, >>that does change the stakes once again. At this stage in our history >>and cultural development, I'm inclined to be in favor of holding open >>a certain amount of exclusive literary space for those with a "first person >>investment" in matter's of race (& gender/sexuality, to some degree). >>To me there is something a little unseemly, given the relatively >>recent bar to these literatures, that with barely a foot in the door, so >>to speak, suddenly a queue of white writers start lining up...saying >>"I feel your pain; I'm just like you." >>Hang back, for godsakes....it's not about a facility for mimicry... >>a real cry must be first heard. >>Finnegan >> >> _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From spacks at snowcrest.net Mon Dec 3 13:25:05 2001 From: spacks at snowcrest.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 10:25:05 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: "November Talks" by Michael Palmer In-Reply-To: <003501c17be3$7389fc20$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011203102505.007cb690@snowcrest.net> At 05:15 AM 12/3/01 -0500, Bob G. wrote: >The title seems wrong to me, and confusing. But >I'm not confident it won't eventually make good sense. The poem works for me also, and yes, takes a slowing down (all strong suggestivity does). The one bit least cryptic for this reader is in fact that title, which seems to me crucial in allowing the piece to stay just this side of obscurity: what's talking here is November, i.e., the Penultimate voice, before the cold/dark year(life)end: the voice of the "almost-there." on on, B. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Dec 3 15:34:23 2001 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 15:34:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: "November Talks" by Michael Palmer References: <3.0.5.32.20011203102505.007cb690@snowcrest.net> Message-ID: <004e01c17c39$e56a17c0$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> > The one bit least cryptic for this reader is > in fact that title, which seems to me crucial > in allowing the piece to stay just this side > of obscurity: what's talking here is November, > i.e., the Penultimate voice, before the cold/dark > year(life)end: the voice of the "almost-there." For some reason, I never thought of "talks" as a verb--though I'm not sure you take it as that. The title does make more sense as November talking, or the talks of November. I don't much like November as the speaker of the poem since "our" doesn't work, for me, with it. I would have preferred plain, "November," or "In November," or the like. Thanks to Barry, though, the title does join and amplify the rest of the poem, for me. --Bob G. From JforJames at aol.com Mon Dec 3 16:10:28 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 16:10:28 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Poems from Black Series by Laurie Sheck Message-ID: <54.1f074856.293d4444@aol.com> from Black Series: Medusa I can almost taste the glassy air. Where are the birds in it, wings lifting as currents buffet them like echoes, bright chaos of atomized instances, storm-light gashing, hurrying, dispersing? I can almost taste the stillness. Are there faces in front of me? Are there eyes? And tongues in a gathering wilderness of mouths? Always it is strange to watch them change when he lifts me from the sack and makes me look ? my eyes a chisel, then a shroud, wrapping them, colorless, frozen there, all stone. Inside the sack I remember the soft contorted flickerings of skin before I drew my gaze completely up and entered, still amazed at how my eyes enact their mandate. And I think of how, from out of my own body (which is lost to me now, rotting in some nameless place, torso, arms and legs gone piece-meal, mossy, rank) a horse with wings was born, flying up past dirt, past swirling dust, into the winds that sweep past stone, past all the dead and trees and leaning stems, and past the steady weapons of my eyes. How did that horse come to grow in me, that winged and unbound thing? It was like something I dreamt, a whispering I might have heard in the long-ago of light and mist and rain imprinting unreadable coins on the rooftops. What is safety? How can the world shelter itself from itself? If I could stay blindfolded forever ? and not turn each thing into a caption, rigid and shatterless, perfectly intact. There are quick particles of light behind my eyes, neurons acidly scattering small suns, unhooded sky (or my body, wholly lost to me now, or the horse's wings prospering and beating). Then I taste the glassy air again, hear the steady breathing, and then the hands (I think of them as voices speaking on a soundtrack that re-winds, repeats, repeats) reaching to undo the sack, lift me into sunlight, make me look. Seaweeds Before we touched Medusa's head we felt the soft wreckage of the waves on our bodies, rode with the foam netting and un-netting us, the stiff trees so strange in their separateness, as if grafted to a fear we couldn't see. Above us, stars like passwords, access codes glittering in zones of the unhidden. Above us: clouds scattering in horrorless dissonance, sun untouched by footsteps. We didn't know what it meant to be so savagely self-sealed. This is the relentless dream, this the admission ticket that can't be given back. As there are cardinal points that can't be changed, machines that are programmed to do just one thing, and one thing only, as there are xeroxes of other xeroxes, lighter or darker but basically the same, as there are screens unaltered by the wishes that move through them, and scenes that can't rescind their harsh configurations, so, too, we remember from within our rigidity now: rush of waves mapless gatherings of leaves. We think: That midnight was. The brights between. Plummeting sunshine, blue amaze. The waves move through each other without hurting each other. The sand unbinds itself slowly. Sea roses open. The minutes impart their vertigo as summations are given, retracted, then given again. A child dreams she's swimming through a wall, and the wall is white water. Eyes move back and forth beneath closed lids. We think: cloisters of envy threshold winding stair. Laurie Sheck Black Series, Alfred A. Knopf, Inc., (c) 2001 From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Dec 3 17:28:02 2001 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 17:28:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Two Poems from Black Series by Laurie Sheck References: <54.1f074856.293d4444@aol.com> Message-ID: <000a01c17c49$c614e700$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> I'll be nice and just say that these two didn't make it into my "Interesting Poems From the Internet" File. --Bob G. From JforJames at aol.com Mon Dec 3 17:47:25 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 17:47:25 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: "November Talks" by Michael Palmer Message-ID: The poem is unnecessarily cryptic methinks. I hope it's not November talking...that is much too strange a reading for me. It seems more acceptable that this poem was evoked by talks/conversations during the month of November... perhaps between the two poets out walking in the November landscape? Since there are few narrative markers in this poem, all one is left with only mood; and I do get an aspect of dread...two people becoming acutely aware of mortality...the human turnover rate, if you will: "so many of us/ here,so many missing /who might have been here." Best line of the poem: "And wheels of given a day within wheels." Speaking to me of the greater gravitational mechanics of our planet and the sun within our solar system all the way down to down to the idea of a rat on an exercise wheel. Finnegan > November Talks > > for Bob Perelman > > > Certain faces seem to be ours > pieces of April broken from the main part > window and door entirely ours > who dream of the path of ice > beneath shade, sleep flowering > > casually over narrow shoulders > and wheels of a given day within wheels > A headless man is crossing the road > as we remember the earliest shore > outlined by cloud, sleep > > wet to our touch, material > of tears offered in sips > so many of us > here, so many missing > who might have been here > > --Michael Palmer > > From spacks at snowcrest.net Mon Dec 3 17:52:50 2001 From: spacks at snowcrest.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 14:52:50 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: "November Talks" by Michael Palmer In-Reply-To: <004e01c17c39$e56a17c0$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> References: <3.0.5.32.20011203102505.007cb690@snowcrest.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011203145250.007d5760@snowcrest.net> At 03:34 PM 12/3/01 -0500, Bob G. wrote: > >For some reason, I never thought of "talks" as a verb--though I'm >not sure you take it as that. Maybe better as a noun, in the light of the "our" incompatibility. Talks-Presented-in-November (cf. Weil's "September Song), word-offerings in the spirit of the waning year. But the verb can also encompass the 'human-speak' of the poem, in the sense of "late in our creaturely year," or "our autumnal state." B. From adead_poet at hotmail.com Mon Dec 3 19:33:50 2001 From: adead_poet at hotmail.com (dead poet) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 18:33:50 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] sandburg Message-ID: hey, i'm looking for a good biography and/or critical work of sandburg. i looked around but i'm not sure what the best one is or if there are any. thanks, jason _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From tadrichards at prodigy.net Mon Dec 3 20:59:54 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 20:59:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "real cry" or "mimicry" References: <200112031546.fB3FkGU39632@sp1n293en1.watson.ibm.com> Message-ID: <001001c17c67$609a86a0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> > >>paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: > >>>An interesting variation on these questions: What if--as an Australian > >>author recently did--a writer authors a novel in the voice of a racial > >>minority--and perhaps even assumes a fictive persona as a minority author, > >>complete with authentic-sounding pseudonym. If the novel wins rave reviews > >>and literary awards on the basis of its good writing and portrayal of, say, > >>aboriginal life, and the author later turns out to be a white Anglo woman, > >>does that invalidate the reviews? and should it be a cause for the return of > >>literary awards on the ground of fraud? > >> I believe it was Marilyn Nelson, when she was posting on CAP-L, who gave us this story -- paraphrased from memory -- about discussing a poem with another black writer, who said -- it's sensitive and profound. When Nelson told her it had been written by a white poet, the other writer said, "Well, in that case, it's racist." Have we -- I may have missed a thread or two -- congratulated Marilyn Nelson on being named poet laureate of Connecticut? And it sure would be nice if she decided to come back to this list. Tad From JackKerouac25 at aol.com Mon Dec 3 21:25:00 2001 From: JackKerouac25 at aol.com (JackKerouac25 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 21:25:00 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Billy Collins Profile . . . Message-ID: <91.14695abb.293d8dfc@aol.com> I enjoyed this piece about Collins at _The Washington Post_: <> Some of you will; some of you won't. While I do enjoy collins, perhaps the best quote in the piece is from Miller Williams: "There is a lobby of obscurantists in this country," says poet and Collins-defender Miller Williams, "who believe that a poem is not to be experienced but solved. People who subscribe to this are contemptuous of anyone whose poetry can be followed. Anyone can be hard to understand -- a 3-year-old or a drunk. What is rare and difficult is the ability to be clear and mysterious at the same time." Well-said, Miller Williams. Cordially, JLN Jeffrey L. Newberry Adjunct Instructor Department of English and Foreign Languages University of West Florida 11000 University Parkway Pensacola, FL 32514 850.474.2923 850.473.7330 From gmcvay at patriot.net Mon Dec 3 22:34:46 2001 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 22:34:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Agreement: fountain pens? References: Message-ID: <3C0C4415.D85EF715@patriot.net> I agree about agreeing on things, and I'm wondering who else on the list agrees with me that sometimes it is a very great thing to write with a fountain pen. Not on checks, or upside down, or what have you. Just consciously applying that ink to the paper as the words come out. Gwyn, agreeably using a pen with brown marblings like fudge ripple ice cream (on a piece of paper offscreen, that is) From antrobin at clipper.net Mon Dec 3 22:07:29 2001 From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 19:07:29 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Agreement: fountain pens? References: <3C0C4415.D85EF715@patriot.net> Message-ID: <03e601c17c70$d2405f60$68aeefd8@0021936706> I agree that when using a fountain pen, I always end up with ink on my hands, which isn't the worst that can happen, but it's sufficiently unpleasant to ensure that I'll usually choose ballpoint. Tony __________________ "The assumption that a poem must always have the concept of a speaking voice narrating its feeling--well that seemed and still seems an awfully narrow mandate for verbal art." Charles Bernstein "You can't handle the truth. No truth-handler you. I deride your truth-handling abilities!" Sideshow Bob Terwilliger ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gwyn McVay" To: Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 7:34 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Agreement: fountain pens? > I agree about agreeing on things, and I'm wondering who else on the list > agrees with me that sometimes it is a very great thing to write with a > fountain pen. Not on checks, or upside down, or what have you. Just > consciously applying that ink to the paper as the words come out. > > Gwyn, agreeably using a pen with brown marblings like fudge ripple ice > cream (on a piece of paper offscreen, that is) > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu Mon Dec 3 22:43:10 2001 From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Prentiss, Amber) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 22:43:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Agreement: fountain pens? Message-ID: I agree that fountain pens are nice, and on occasion I actually locate my cheap-o one. However, since I practically need a pack of pens a day to keep from losing them, they're not very economically feasible. Bics forever, Amber -----Original Message----- From: Anthony Robinson To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 12/3/01 10:07 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Agreement: fountain pens? I agree that when using a fountain pen, I always end up with ink on my hands, which isn't the worst that can happen, but it's sufficiently unpleasant to ensure that I'll usually choose ballpoint. Tony __________________ "The assumption that a poem must always have the concept of a speaking voice narrating its feeling--well that seemed and still seems an awfully narrow mandate for verbal art." Charles Bernstein "You can't handle the truth. No truth-handler you. I deride your truth-handling abilities!" Sideshow Bob Terwilliger ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gwyn McVay" To: Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 7:34 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Agreement: fountain pens? > I agree about agreeing on things, and I'm wondering who else on the list > agrees with me that sometimes it is a very great thing to write with a > fountain pen. Not on checks, or upside down, or what have you. Just > consciously applying that ink to the paper as the words come out. > > Gwyn, agreeably using a pen with brown marblings like fudge ripple ice > cream (on a piece of paper offscreen, that is) > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards at prodigy.net Mon Dec 3 22:52:37 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 22:52:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Agreement: fountain pens? References: Message-ID: <00ba01c17c77$1e5f5080$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> I use very very fine point drawing pens -- .005 Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Prentiss, Amber" To: Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 10:43 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Agreement: fountain pens? > > I agree that fountain pens are nice, and on occasion I actually locate my > cheap-o one. However, since I practically need a pack of pens a day to keep > from losing them, they're not very economically feasible. > > Bics forever, > Amber > -----Original Message----- > From: Anthony Robinson > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: 12/3/01 10:07 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Agreement: fountain pens? > > I agree that when using a fountain pen, I always end up with ink on my > hands, which isn't the worst that can happen, but it's sufficiently > unpleasant to ensure that I'll usually choose ballpoint. > > Tony > __________________ > "The assumption that a poem must always have the concept of a speaking > voice > narrating its feeling--well that seemed and still seems an awfully > narrow > mandate for verbal art." > Charles Bernstein > > "You can't handle the truth. No truth-handler you. I deride your > truth-handling abilities!" > Sideshow Bob Terwilliger > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Gwyn McVay" > To: > Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 7:34 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Agreement: fountain pens? > > > > I agree about agreeing on things, and I'm wondering who else on the > list > > agrees with me that sometimes it is a very great thing to write with a > > fountain pen. Not on checks, or upside down, or what have you. Just > > consciously applying that ink to the paper as the words come out. > > > > Gwyn, agreeably using a pen with brown marblings like fudge ripple ice > > cream (on a piece of paper offscreen, that is) > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JackKerouac25 at aol.com Mon Dec 3 23:38:20 2001 From: JackKerouac25 at aol.com (JackKerouac25 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 23:38:20 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Agreement: fountain pens? Message-ID: I use whatever pen I happen to find in my desk drawer, usually one I've accidentally lifted from somebody else. As a matter of fact, now that I'm writing this, I can't actually every *remember* buying any pens . . . Hmmmm..... Jeff N (wondering whose pens he's stolen this time) ============================================================= Jeffrey L. Newberry Adjunct Instructor Department of English and Foreign Languages University of West Florida 11000 University Parkway Pensacola, FL 32514 850.474.2923 850.473.7330 From tadrichards at prodigy.net Mon Dec 3 23:48:44 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 23:48:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Billy Collins Profile . . . References: <91.14695abb.293d8dfc@aol.com> Message-ID: <00ce01c17c7e$f56bf0e0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Do you suppose it's true? About no one at Lehman knowing who he is? Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, December 03, 2001 9:25 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Billy Collins Profile . . . > I enjoyed this piece about Collins at _The Washington Post_: > > <> > > Some of you will; some of you won't. > > While I do enjoy collins, perhaps the best quote in the piece is from Miller > Williams: > > "There is a lobby of obscurantists in this country," says poet and > Collins-defender Miller Williams, "who believe that a poem is not to be > experienced but solved. People who subscribe to this are contemptuous of > anyone whose poetry can be followed. Anyone can be hard to understand -- a > 3-year-old or a drunk. What is rare and difficult is the ability to be clear > and mysterious at the same time." > > Well-said, Miller Williams. > > Cordially, > > JLN > > Jeffrey L. Newberry > Adjunct Instructor > Department of English and Foreign Languages > University of West Florida > 11000 University Parkway > Pensacola, FL 32514 > 850.474.2923 > 850.473.7330 > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Tue Dec 4 00:14:10 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 21:14:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Agreement: fountain pens? Message-ID: <20011204051410.E317B2756@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Tue Dec 4 00:19:21 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 21:19:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Agreement: fountain pens? Message-ID: <20011204051921.EDF1336F9@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu Tue Dec 4 00:36:58 2001 From: Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu (Edward Byrne) Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 23:36:58 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Agreement: fountain pens? In-Reply-To: <3C0C4415.D85EF715@patriot.net> Message-ID: Yes, I enjoy writing with a fountain pen. Perhaps part of this has to do with my nostalgic memories of elementary school where every student wrote with a fountain pen and had an inkwell on his or her desk. --Ed B. > I agree about agreeing on things, and I'm wondering who else on the list > agrees with me that sometimes it is a very great thing to write with a > fountain pen. Not on checks, or upside down, or what have you. Just > consciously applying that ink to the paper as the words come out. > > Gwyn, agreeably using a pen with brown marblings like fudge ripple ice > cream (on a piece of paper offscreen, that is) -------------------------------------------------- Edward Byrne Department of English 322 Huegli Hall Valparaiso University Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/ Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/ Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 Fax: (219) 464-5511 -------------------------------------------------- From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Dec 4 08:34:55 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 08:34:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Billy Collins Profile . . . In-Reply-To: <00ce01c17c7e$f56bf0e0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: Would that really be surprising? I seem to remember that some guys researching a book on the NJ Turnpike several years ago found that no one working at the Walt Whitman rest-stop knew who W.W. was. I don't remember if they checked out the Joyce Kilmer rest-stop. Hal > Do you suppose it's true? About no one at Lehman knowing who he is? > > > Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." From tadrichards at prodigy.net Tue Dec 4 08:35:51 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 08:35:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Billy Collins Profile . . . References: Message-ID: <010801c17cc8$98782a80$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> How about the Vince Lombardi rest stop? Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 8:34 AM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Billy Collins Profile . . . > Would that really be surprising? I seem to remember that some guys > researching a book on the NJ Turnpike several years ago found that > no one working at the Walt Whitman rest-stop knew who W.W. was. > I don't remember if they checked out the Joyce Kilmer rest-stop. > > Hal > > > Do you suppose it's true? About no one at Lehman knowing who he is? > > > > > > Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From wasanthony at yahoo.com Tue Dec 4 10:07:14 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 07:07:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] "real cry" or "mimicry" In-Reply-To: <001001c17c67$609a86a0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <20011204150714.85195.qmail@web12103.mail.yahoo.com> --- theoldmole wrote: > > >>paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: > > >>>An interesting variation on these questions: What if--as an > Australian > > >>author recently did--a writer authors a novel in the voice of a > racial > > >>minority--and perhaps even assumes a fictive persona as a > minority > author, > > >>complete with authentic-sounding pseudonym. If the novel wins > rave > reviews > > >>and literary awards on the basis of its good writing and > portrayal of, > say, > > >>aboriginal life, and the author later turns out to be a white > Anglo > woman, > > >>does that invalidate the reviews? and should it be a cause for > the > return of > > >>literary awards on the ground of fraud? > > >> > > I believe it was Marilyn Nelson, when she was posting on CAP-L, who > gave us > this story -- paraphrased from memory -- about discussing a poem with > another black writer, who said -- it's sensitive and profound. When > Nelson > told her it had been written by a white poet, the other writer said, > "Well, > in that case, it's racist." Not too different from the woman who came to hear me read, having never heard of me before. After the reading, she came up and said in an accusatory tone, "You don't write Chicano poetry." Ah well . . . the baggage other people carry for us. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Tue Dec 4 10:21:12 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 07:21:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Billy Collins Profile . . . Message-ID: <20011204152112.D07202755@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Tue Dec 4 11:18:43 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 08:18:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Questions/Kooser Message-ID: <20011204161843.EDD3C2755@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Tue Dec 4 11:35:35 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 11:35:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Questions/Kooser References: <20011204161843.EDD3C2755@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <013501c17ce1$b520dc40$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> My office-mate just told me about a satire that actually had him fooled for bit -- an academic paper about the erotic passages taken out of Jane Austen by her prudish editors. It ends with a letter from Jane saying, look, if you're gonna censor the real me, just leave my name off the novel, and say it was written by "a lady." Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert R.Cobb" To: Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 11:18 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Questions/Kooser > Paul, > > To confound these questions even more, whose voice is to be believed > when writers collaborate? Or, when ghost writers are used, or pseudonyms, > pen-names have been chosen so as not to reveal the true identity/persona/gender > of the author(s)? > > Bob C. > > Poetry Catamaran > > "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" > > Robert R. Cobb > AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. > http://rrcobb.tripod.com > > > --- Paul Lake wrote: > >on 11/30/01 1:27 PM, JforJames at aol.com at JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > > >> In a message dated 11/30/01 10:28:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, > >> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu writes: > >> > >>> As Carol Frost once put it, wouldn't we all be pissed if we learned that > >>> Alicia Ostriker, author of "The Mastectomy Poems," had in fact never > >>> suffered from breast cancer? Or that Sharon Olds's father was *not* an > >>> alcoholic at all? Or that Komunyakaa spent the Vietnam years in > >> Vancouver? > >>> If so, on what basis? If not, why not? Isn't it true that certain poems > >>> make implied truth claims about their authors--a claim of authority, in > >>> fact? Or, at least, that most readers understand things that way? > >>> > >>> I tend to agree with Kooser that things may get troubling when authors > >> allow > >>> themselves to receive credit and sympathy, personally, for fictive > >>> sufferings. In other words, there may be a distinction to be made between > >>> publishing a fictive piece and reading it in public and letting people > >>> assume things about you, or even encouraging the mistake. > >> David, > >> It seems from some of the examples given that a reader only > >> feels this pang of being taken in by the speaker when the poem > >> evokes pathos. If a speaker "lies" to us about a great love or > >> joyous experience in his/her life, do we feel deceived? & no one > >> cares if the poet has fictively employed an emotionally neutral > >> experience, do they? > >> Finnegan > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > >An interesting variation on these questions: What if--as an Australian > >author recently did--a writer authors a novel in the voice of a racial > >minority--and perhaps even assumes a fictive persona as a minority author, > >complete with authentic-sounding pseudonym. If the novel wins rave reviews > >and literary awards on the basis of its good writing and portrayal of, say, > >aboriginal life, and the author later turns out to be a white Anglo woman, > >does that invalidate the reviews? and should it be a cause for the return of > >literary awards on the ground of fraud? > > > >Or can the author say that all writers employ a fictive voice, and that he > >or she has simply been better at it than most? > > > >And what about the recent practice of certain New York editors, who call up > >novelists whose work they've decided they might print to see if the author > >really is a member of the racial minority the work in hand suggests? > > > > > >Paul Lake > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames at aol.com Tue Dec 4 13:00:13 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 13:00:13 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Billy Collins Profile . . . Message-ID: <2d.152aa0e9.293e692d@aol.com> In a message dated 12/3/01 9:26:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, JackKerouac25 at aol.com writes: > "There is a lobby of obscurantists in this country," says poet and > Collins-defender Miller Williams, "who believe that a poem is not to be > experienced but solved. People who subscribe to this are contemptuous of > anyone whose poetry can be followed. Anyone can be hard to understand -- a > 3-year-old or a drunk. What is rare and difficult is the ability to be clear > and mysterious at the same time." > > Well-said, Miller Williams. Jeff, I want to quibble with this text bite. It would be nice to know who is part of this "lobby of obscurantists." Michael Palmer and those influenced by language poetry, perhaps. Certain well-known contemporaries like Jorie Graham or Brenda Hillman might also be tilting in this direction. But, by and large, opening journal after journal of contempoetry, clear (often rendered in free verse) poetry still holds sway, don' t you think? Certainly this nefarious lobby hasn't been very successful in ruining the enjoyment of many readers and writers of contemporary poetry. The last part of the quote really confounds me: "What is rare and difficult is the ability to be clear and mysterious at the same time." Rare and difficult?...why not say "impossible"? A poem will either be clear or it will be mysterious. The recently posted Michael Palmer poem with the headless figure crossing the road was mysterious. And this poem, judging by the variant readings, was not particularly clear. I suppose one can have clearly rendered images or events that are mysterious taken as a whole....but you can't have mysterious doings in a poem and be clear. In any case, I can't see how mysteriousness, even clearly rendered mysteriousness, would apply to the poetry of Billy Collins. Maybe I'm being too exacting, but can a poet have it both ways? I guess we could as easily again tar the Romantic poets and their theories: Coleridge stating that a poem is generally best when not well understood. Finnegan From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Tue Dec 4 13:10:32 2001 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 13:10:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Billy Collins Profile . . . In-Reply-To: <2d.152aa0e9.293e692d@aol.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011204130423.00a9fa00@postoffice.brown.edu> It's not hard to be clear. What's difficult is being real. What leads poets into obscurity is that very difficulty. It's hard to show how the beautiful & the real are united. It's easy to be clear - it's harder not to be trivial, superficial, meretricious, sentimental, self-indulgent, derivative, ugly, boring, pretentious, phony, false. Most of those harping against "obscurantism" fall into one or more of these pits. Most of the pretentious-obscure poets fall into them also. Henry At 01:00 PM 12/4/01 -0500, you wrote: >In a message dated 12/3/01 9:26:04 PM Eastern Standard Time, >JackKerouac25 at aol.com writes: > > > "There is a lobby of obscurantists in this country," says poet and > > Collins-defender Miller Williams, "who believe that a poem is not to be > > experienced but solved. People who subscribe to this are contemptuous of > > anyone whose poetry can be followed. Anyone can be hard to understand > -- a > > 3-year-old or a drunk. What is rare and difficult is the ability to be >clear > > and mysterious at the same time." > > > > Well-said, Miller Williams. >Jeff, >I want to quibble with this text bite. It would be nice to know >who is part of this "lobby of obscurantists." Michael Palmer >and those influenced by language poetry, perhaps. >Certain well-known contemporaries like Jorie Graham or Brenda >Hillman might also be tilting in this direction. But, by and large, >opening journal after journal of contempoetry, clear (often >rendered in free verse) poetry still holds sway, don' t you think? >Certainly this nefarious lobby hasn't been very successful in >ruining the enjoyment of many readers and writers of >contemporary poetry. >The last part of the quote really confounds me: "What is rare >and difficult is the ability to be clear and mysterious at the >same time." Rare and difficult?...why not say "impossible"? >A poem will either be clear or it will be mysterious. The recently >posted Michael Palmer poem with the headless figure crossing >the road was mysterious. And this poem, judging by the variant >readings, was not particularly clear. I suppose one can have >clearly rendered images or events that are mysterious taken >as a whole....but you can't have mysterious doings in a poem >and be clear. >In any case, I can't see how mysteriousness, even clearly rendered >mysteriousness, would apply to the poetry of Billy Collins. >Maybe I'm being too exacting, but can a poet have it both ways? >I guess we could as easily again tar the Romantic poets and >their theories: Coleridge stating that a poem is generally best >when not well understood. >Finnegan >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ******************************************************** HG afloat: www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Tue Dec 4 02:11:03 2001 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 01:11:03 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] "real cry" or "mimicry" In-Reply-To: <001001c17c67$609a86a0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: on 12/3/01 7:59 PM, theoldmole at tadrichards at prodigy.net wrote: >>>> paul.lake at mail.atu.edu writes: >>>>> An interesting variation on these questions: What if--as an Australian >>>> author recently did--a writer authors a novel in the voice of a racial >>>> minority--and perhaps even assumes a fictive persona as a minority > author, >>>> complete with authentic-sounding pseudonym. If the novel wins rave > reviews >>>> and literary awards on the basis of its good writing and portrayal of, > say, >>>> aboriginal life, and the author later turns out to be a white Anglo > woman, >>>> does that invalidate the reviews? and should it be a cause for the > return of >>>> literary awards on the ground of fraud? >>>> > > I believe it was Marilyn Nelson, when she was posting on CAP-L, who gave us > this story -- paraphrased from memory -- about discussing a poem with > another black writer, who said -- it's sensitive and profound. When Nelson > told her it had been written by a white poet, the other writer said, "Well, > in that case, it's racist." > > Have we -- I may have missed a thread or two -- congratulated Marilyn Nelson > on being named poet laureate of Connecticut? > > And it sure would be nice if she decided to come back to this list. > > Tad > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Marilyn was frequently lurking on the old list, so perhaps she's quietly taking in our discussion--in which case, congratulations, Marilyn, on your well-deserved laureateship. Paul Lake From MillB at aol.com Tue Dec 4 16:42:28 2001 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 16:42:28 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] "real cry" or "mimicry" Message-ID: This happens in the art world as well-- A project by Michael Oatman. He created a 18th century painter apparently over-looked and forgotten. The shows as were the reviews were real. He duped the critique community until finally they caught on. Cheers, Mill From GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU Tue Dec 4 17:41:50 2001 From: GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 16:41:50 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Speaks Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BE05F@mail.ripon.edu> "Sometimes Poetry Should Be Seen But Not Heard," by Adam Kirsch: http://slate.msn.com/?id=2059241 It's a review of the new book/CD package *Poetry Speaks*. Has anyone seen/heard this volume? Any thoughts to report? I've been trying to decide whether or not to splurge on it, for unlike Adam K I do love listening to poetry spoken, even sometimes when the poet isn't terribly good as performer. =================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu =================== From chryss at silcom.com Tue Dec 4 18:01:21 2001 From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost) Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 15:01:21 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Speaks Message-ID: <20011204230547.A3CD01457FC@beach.silcom.com> Kirsch's review seems fair. It's a fascinating collection for many reasons, sometimes BECAUSE a performance is so strange. There are nice little intros to each poem (unlike most poetry CDs I've heard), so beginners can follow along, too. I confess to being a fan of poetry on CD generally, since they are wonderful on road trips and easier for me to memorize than poems on the page. Barry Spacks's CD is a favorite. . . C. Not too sure about Kirsch's last line, but that's an entirely different discussion: "The poem is always only what the poet wrote down on the page. Everything else is show business." ---------- >From: "Graham, David" >To: "'New-Poetry'" >Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Speaks >Date: Tue, Dec 4, 2001, 2:41 PM > >"Sometimes Poetry Should Be Seen But Not Heard," by Adam Kirsch: > >http://slate.msn.com/?id=2059241 > >It's a review of the new book/CD package *Poetry Speaks*. Has anyone >seen/heard this volume? Any thoughts to report? I've been trying to decide >whether or not to splurge on it, for unlike Adam K I do love listening to >poetry spoken, even sometimes when the poet isn't terribly good as >performer. > >=================== >David Graham >grahamd at mail.ripon.edu >=================== >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Dec 4 18:58:37 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 18:58:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Speaks In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BE05F@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: And Adam Kirsch is one of those critics better left unread, it seems to me. Not that I'd want to listen to him. Hal > "Sometimes Poetry Should Be Seen But Not Heard," by Adam Kirsch: > > http://slate.msn.com/?id=2059241 > > It's a review of the new book/CD package *Poetry Speaks*. Has anyone > seen/heard this volume? Any thoughts to report? I've been trying to decide > whether or not to splurge on it, for unlike Adam K I do love listening to > poetry spoken, even sometimes when the poet isn't terribly good as > performer. > > =================== > David Graham > grahamd at mail.ripon.edu > =================== > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From gmcvay at patriot.net Tue Dec 4 19:59:41 2001 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 19:59:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Speaks In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BE05F@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: Please, I beg of participants in this discussion, none of what the movie trade calls "spoilers," as I'm rather hoping for this set from Santa. Signed, Not Virginia, But In Virginia From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Dec 4 20:01:03 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 20:01:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Speaks In-Reply-To: <20011204230547.A3CD01457FC@beach.silcom.com> Message-ID: > Not too sure about Kirsch's last line, but that's an entirely different > discussion: "The poem is always only what the poet wrote down on the page. > Everything else is show business." See what I mean? Hal From jdavis at panix.com Wed Dec 5 09:02:28 2001 From: jdavis at panix.com (Jordan Davis) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 09:02:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] "real cry" or "mimicry" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: This happens in the musical community as well. Fritz Kreisler "discovered" a number of peasant violin tunes that he later confessed to writing. Jordan Davis From tadrichards at prodigy.net Wed Dec 5 10:14:34 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 10:14:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "real cry" or "mimicry" References: Message-ID: <002501c17d9f$8d00da80$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> What about Jimmie Rodgers? When he went to Bristol to record for Ralph Peer, he started singing the songs he knew, which were popular Tin Pan Alley songs of the day. Peer told him no, no, no -- he didn't want that, he wanted authentic indigenous folk music. Rodgers said right, he'd come back with some tomorrow. But since he didn't know any authentic folk music, and he wanted the ten bucks, he went over to his sister-in-law's, and the two of them made up a bunch of songs, with which he proceeded to hoodwink Peer, and get paid for the recording session. He didn't enrich our knowledge of authentic folk music. But he did invent modern country muisc. Not a bad trade-off. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jordan Davis" To: Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 9:02 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "real cry" or "mimicry" > This happens in the musical community as well. Fritz Kreisler "discovered" > a number of peasant violin tunes that he later confessed to writing. > > Jordan Davis > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Dec 5 10:39:12 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 10:39:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Spencer Holst: NYT obit Message-ID: Here's Harvey Shapiro's obit for Spencer Holst, which ran in the NYT this morning. Hal *************** December 5, 2001 Spencer Holst, 75, Writer and Teller of Fables, Dies By HARVEY SHAPIRO Spencer Holst, a writer of fables and a fixture of the downtown Manhattan avant-garde scene for 30 years, died on Nov. 23 at St. Vincent's Hospital in Manhattan. He was 75. He had been suffering from emphysema and apparently died of a stroke, said George Quasha, a co- owner of Station Hill/Barrytown, Mr. Holst's publisher. Mr. Holst gained his reputation partly from his own readings of his stories. He was a big-eyed man and read the magical tales with an air of constant wonderment, as if they had been dropped on his doorstep just that morning. They were short and often funny stories in which animals mixed with people. The poet Hugh Seidman, Mr. Holst's neighbor for 30 years in Westbeth, the housing complex for artists in the West Village, said, "Once you heard him perform his classic tales, like `The Frog' or `A Balkan Entertainment,' it was impossible to get his voice out of your head, impossible not to hear it each time you read one of his fables." His venues for readings included Westbeth, the former club Max's Kansas City, Judson Memorial Church and the Village Vanguard. His books of stories included "On Demons" (written with his wife, the painter Beate Wheeler), "The Language of Cats and Other Stories," "Prose for Dancing," "The Zebra Storyteller," "Brilliant Silence," and "Spencer Holst Stories," for which he received the Hilda and Richard Rosenthal Foundation Award from the American Academy and Institute of Arts and Letters in 1977. His stories are hard to classify. The poet John Hollander said: "These are routines ? something like fictions, something like jokes ? of a stand-up tragic. Transcriptions of a spoken voice, their cadences linger beyond laughter." In one of his characteristic stories, "The Frog," a frog becomes "addicted to morphine during experiments at the federal hospital at Lexington, Ky.," is eventually kissed by a beautiful teenager and, of course, becomes a prince ("a tall Italian-looking guy"). But the girl won't marry her prince because he is a drug addict; the narrator wins her. Some of his short stories are very short indeed. For example, "Mona Lisa Meets Buddha" reads in its entirety: "Up in heaven the curtains fluttered, the curtains fluttered, and the Mona Lisa entered at one end of a small hall, which was hung with many veils. Up in heaven the curtains fluttered, fluttered, fluttered, and the Buddha entered the hall at the other end. They smiled." He once said of himself, "In the geography of literature I have always felt my work to be equidistant between two writers, each born in Ohio ? Hart Crane and James Thurber ? but my wife says don't be silly, your stories are halfway between Hans Christian Andersen and Franz Kafka." Mr. Holst was born in 1926 in Detroit and grew up in Ohio, where his father was a sports columnist for The Toledo Blade and The Toledo Times. In 1957 he came to New York determined to be a writer. He married Ms. Wheeler, and in 1970 they became charter tenants of Westbeth. He lived there until his death. In addition to his wife, he is survived by a sister, Mary-Ella Holst, of Manhattan; a son, Sebastian, of Chevy Chase, Md.; and two grandchildren. From GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU Wed Dec 5 12:05:48 2001 From: GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU (Graham, David) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 11:05:48 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Videos Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BE06A@mail.ripon.edu> The Lannan Foundation, via Small Press Distribution, is offering an amazing deal. Videos from their extensive collection of writers' interviews and readings is being given away to institutions such as colleges, community centers, and libraries. They even pay the postage. Read about it at the SPD site; look under "Free Lannan Videos." http://www.pub24x7.com/scripts/rgw.dll/rblive/BOOKS:ORDERHOME So far I've viewed the Pattiann Rogers and the Philip Levine videos, which are both quite fine. Their video backlist is most impressive. It's heavy on the poetry, and on American writers, but there are exceptions to that. Here's a partial list of what's available: Available Videos: Yehuda Amichai, Amiri Baraka, Eavan Boland, Kay Boyle, Ernesto Cardenal, Hayden Carruth, Sandra Cisneros, Lucille Clifton, Robert Creeley, Victor Hernandez Cruz, Mark Doty, Stuart Dybek, Carolyn Forche, Richard Ford, Carlos Fuentes, Eduardo Galeano Vol. 1, Jack Gilbert, Allen Ginsberg, Louise Gluck, Eamon Grennan, Barbara Guest, Thom Gunn, Joy Harjo, Seamus Heaney, Larry Heinemann, Linda Hogan, Kazuo Ishiguro, Galway Kinnell, Yusef Komunyakaa, Li-Young Lee, Denise Levertov, Philip Levine, Barry Lopez, Derek Mahon, David Malouf, Paule Marshall, Peter Matthiessen, W.S. Merwin, Czeslaw Milosz Vol. 1, Richard Nelson, Eilean Ni Chuilleanain & Nuala Ni Dhomhnaill, Edna O'Brien, Sharon Olds, Michael Ondaatje, Grace Paley, Octavio Paz, Caryl Phillips, Peter Reading, Ishmael Reed, Adrienne Rich Vol. 1, Adrienne Rich Vol. 2, Luis Rodriguez, Pattiann Rogers, Sonia Sanchez, Scott Russell Sanders, Gary Snyder Vol. 1, Gary Snyder Vol. 2, Gilbert Sorrentino, Gary Soto, Arthur Sze, Alice Walker, Paul West, John Edgar Wideman, Richard Wilbur, Where Poems Come From David Graham =================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu =================== From Jtcanaday at aol.com Wed Dec 5 13:30:54 2001 From: Jtcanaday at aol.com (Jtcanaday at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 13:30:54 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Speaks -- including possible "spoilers," so don't read this Gwyn Message-ID: <17b.38dde1.293fc1de@aol.com> I think Kirsch raises an important point: as poetry readings become an increasingly mandatory part of the marketing of poetry, poets who write works that are "difficult" to catch on a first hearing will be at a disadvantage compared with poets who write with performance in mind. Personally, I enjoy both sorts of poetry (if they can be said to be true "sorts"), and I'd like to see them both flourish; but since so much in life is embroiled in competition, including the small world of verse, I am afraid that the performers will thrive at the expense of their quieter cousins. Or, perhaps, the performers simply stimulate a market for poetry in general and the quieter set can do some riding on coattails. In either case, I found the CDs to be more valuable than the book. The book includes some wonderful poems, of course, but far fewer than most good anthologies, and not many that aren't generally available. The introductions by "eminent" poets are interesting (at times), but too short to offer much depth of analysis or insight. And the coffee tableness of the book is, to my mind, actually a drawback: the design is flashy and distracting, rather than attractive. Of course many readers will disagree with me on this, but I don't like the boxes around the quotes in the intro essays, and I dislike the blue lines leading me from one paragraph or quote to another. They seem to me unnecessary and ugly. The brief intros to each poet on the CDs, by Charles Osgood, are serviceable but oversimplify their subjects (no surprise there). The readings on the CDs are undeniably of variable quality. Many I don't care for. But all are interesting: they show each poet struggling to give physical substance to the words on the page, to body forth the internal voice(s) that guide(s) the composition of each poem. Because there is no one "right" way of reading these poems, I find that hearing the poet attempt a reading is almost always enlightening, inspiring, or at least provocative. Berryman isn't a great reader, for instance, as Kirsch points out with some vehemence, but I find his readings fascinating: the struggle, the nervous energy, the bursts and stutters, leaps and pauses give a life to the Dream Songs that is not definitive, of course, but revealing. Finally, writing poetry is (usually) such a private act, that I find the effort to unite the poet with his or her poems in public quite moving (usually--though sometimes even more annoying). I won't return to all the readings on the CDs, but I will to many. From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Wed Dec 5 03:59:32 2001 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 02:59:32 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Speaks In-Reply-To: <20011204230547.A3CD01457FC@beach.silcom.com> Message-ID: on 12/4/01 5:01 PM, Chryss Yost at chryss at silcom.com wrote: > Kirsch's review seems fair. It's a fascinating collection for many reasons, > sometimes BECAUSE a performance is so strange. There are nice little intros > to each poem (unlike most poetry CDs I've heard), so beginners can follow > along, too. > I confess to being a fan of poetry on CD generally, since they are wonderful > on road trips and easier for me to memorize than poems on the page. > Barry Spacks's CD is a favorite. . . > C. > Not too sure about Kirsch's last line, but that's an entirely different > discussion: "The poem is always only what the poet wrote down on the page. > Everything else is show business." > ---------- >> From: "Graham, David" >> To: "'New-Poetry'" >> Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Speaks >> Date: Tue, Dec 4, 2001, 2:41 PM >> > >> "Sometimes Poetry Should Be Seen But Not Heard," by Adam Kirsch: >> >> http://slate.msn.com/?id=2059241 >> >> It's a review of the new book/CD package *Poetry Speaks*. Has anyone >> seen/heard this volume? Any thoughts to report? I've been trying to > decide >> whether or not to splurge on it, for unlike Adam K I do love listening to >> poetry spoken, even sometimes when the poet isn't terribly good as >> performer. >> >> =================== >> David Graham >> grahamd at mail.ripon.edu >> =================== >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > There's a new journal coming out in CD format called *Scriptorium.* The journal is in its beginning stages, with the first issue due out soon. I'm not sure if the voices of the poets will be heard on the disk, or if there will only be text versions of the poems. But Sam Gwynn and yours truly will both have poems in the premiere issue. The home page for the journal is scriptorium-journal.org Paul Lake From JforJames at aol.com Wed Dec 5 15:57:36 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 15:57:36 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Sugar Mule - new issue online now Message-ID: <4e.2e0cd6c.293fe440@aol.com> From: M L Weber Subject: Sugar Mule - new issue online now Content-Type: multipart/mixed; Sugar Mule www.SugarMule.com has a new issue containing work by Karl Young, Eileen Tabios, Jessy Randall, George Quasha, Manorama Mathai, Tristram Kimbrough, Jascha Kessler, Samir Dayal, John M. Daniel, Cydney Chadwick, James Cervantes, and Jonathan Alexader. For issue 10, the theme is "on the road", deadline Feb. 15, 2002-- Submit ONLY via email or with an email file attachment (if by attachment be SURE to include YOUR NAME and email address WITHIN the attached file) in any version of an MS Word, ascii, html or .txt file yours, M. L. Weber,editor From JforJames at aol.com Wed Dec 5 18:29:49 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 18:29:49 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Speaks Message-ID: <171.52025d4.294007ed@aol.com> I couldn't disagree with Kirsch more. Yes, you can, as he says, 'hear' a poem perfectly well without hearing it read aloud, but why cut yourself off from the delight of that other (secondary) experience? Hearing a poem recited is a different (not a lesser) experience from someone handing you the text and letting you peruse it. I think an important thing that Kirsch overlooks is that going to a poetry reading is a very special thing in our society. What's the average attendance?...20-50... I've been to readings w/ only a handful in attendance. I don't think Broadway or Hollywood are quaking in their boots. Most "entertainments" would close their doors if they had to live on the average house for a poetry reading. It's a very simple pleasure...all too rare in our culture: A poet stands before a small group of people. A lectern, maybe a little amplification...and that's it. That's the whole show, folks...no props, scenery, laser light show, no flashy h-tech needed (or desired). A human voice reading a few poems. Afterwards maybe some books get sold & signed (Kirsch can't be against moving some text/inventory), and perhaps a little socializing over coffee or wine-n-cheese...a bit of conversation (discourse) and community are not a bad thing either. It's not about who reads better...who gives the best performance. I learned years ago that if you're interested in the speaker and what the speaker has to say, she/he can be very soft spoken, mumbly/monotone, or even have terrible stutter, and you'll find yourself listening even harder, more closely. Finnegan From spacks at snowcrest.net Wed Dec 5 19:03:30 2001 From: spacks at snowcrest.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 16:03:30 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins on Workshops, Drafts & Mystery In-Reply-To: <4e.2e0cd6c.293fe440@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011205160330.007dfb80@snowcrest.net> Colleagues, I beg pardon for the length of what follows, a short excerpt, ending an essay, that relates to a few recent threads hereabouts; also an evidence of the need not to "formulate" Collins (or anyone) too quickly, and perhaps a stalking horse for some speedier thoughts in this shopping season, about workshopping. Barry ************************ from The Secret Game of Poetry by Billy Collins Now let us turn to another recent cultural ritual that affects the private and public nature of poetry, the ritual that Philip Levine has called "one of America's fastest growth industries"--the poetry workshop. Many reasons have been offered for its prevalence. It provides a known, sympathetic audience (people who will sit in a circle and discuss your poem); it forces more work out of you; it fulfills the psychic need to be taken seriously; it may even make your writing better. The list keeps growing. One poet told me he thought that what drove many people into writing workshops was a mid- or late-life crisis which raised the question "Is that all there is?" My sense is that a great measure of the appeal of poetry workshops lies in the fact that the workshop alleviates some of the secrecy, isolation, and covertness of the creative process. Here the space between composing poet and reading audience is narrowed; the members of workshops are both readers and poets. They read a poem not only as poets--that is, as professionals--but they read it as if they had written it. Like the figure/ground illustration of the duck/rabbit, a member of a workshop is poet/reader and reader/poet. By socializing a deeply solitary activity, the workshop attempts to collapse the distance between poet and reader by insisting on mixing the two roles. How else can you imagine what may be done to improve a poem if you do not envision yourself as its composer or co-composer, proud of its strengths, chagrined by its weaknesses? And how else can you evaluate a poem unless you hold it at arm's length and cast a cold reader's eye upon it? This happy muddling of the roles of poet and audience is subverted if a workshop member succumbs to vanity and brings to the workshop a poem that is for all intents and purposes "finished." Instead of submitting it to a magazine or sending it to the United States Bureau of Engraving, the poet brings it to the workshop. "This one's really giving me a lot of trouble," the poet lies as the thing is being passed around the table. This is not just showing off; this is sabotaging the workshop by forcing its members to be readers only, not poets. If the poem is really done, there is no way for anyone else to participate in it except as a passive reader, though I have seen people violently smash holes in the outer walls of such poems in order to get inside. Besides whatever other banners fly over the workshop table the first motto of every such group should be: everything is a draft. By taking place beyond the attention of the general readership, the workshop attempts at least to occupy a space within the sphere of the compositional process itself. In trying to render public what would seem to be an intrinsically private process, the workshop courts both success and failure. There are both obvious and subtle dangers that attend trying to transform a deeply subjective experience into a social activity. The workshop is the beginning of a poem's independence, its first exposure to light. But anyone who has participated in a workshop knows the sinking feeling that the poem has gotten out of one's control. It is being not just being misunderstood, but mauled, carried off in a sack. If I have a conclusion, it is that the poet exists always in a realm separate from his audience, despite the purported obligation of poetry to communicate, to form a verbal bridge between two minds, two hearts. The recent overuse of the term "accessible" in reviews and book blurbs-as if the poem were a building with convenient ramps for the intellectually handicapped-signals an unwillingness to acknowledge the fact that while language communicates publicly, literary language is formed and shaped in private realm too subjective and complex to be accessible to anyone even the poet himself or herself. At a time when energies are being marshaled in an effort to find a wider audience for poetry, perhaps it is a good thing to remember the almost impenetrably private nature of poetic composition. Poems may be displayed on subways and placed in the drawers of motel nightstands, but poets know that the excitement and the mystery of producing poems lie in realms of subjectivity that are deeply inexplicable. If we could understand this realm fully, we probably would be too overwhelmed by it to write a line, and it were easily explained, we probably would not even bother to try. From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Dec 5 20:22:14 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 20:22:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Speaks In-Reply-To: <171.52025d4.294007ed@aol.com> Message-ID: My dream poetry reading would be one in which we in the audience quietly watched as the poet sat quietly reading to him/herself in a comfortable armchair. We'd hear the occasion sigh or groan or chuckle, and maybe the slight rustle of a page being turned. At the end, we could all cry out, "Well read!" Hal "Open the mirage that calls you." --Philip Lamantia Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html > I couldn't disagree with Kirsch more. Yes, you can, > as he says, 'hear' a poem perfectly well without hearing > it read aloud, but why cut yourself off from the delight > of that other (secondary) experience? Hearing a poem > recited is a different (not a lesser) experience from someone > handing you the text and letting you peruse it. > > I think an important thing that Kirsch overlooks is that > going to a poetry reading is a very special thing > in our society. What's the average attendance?...20-50... > I've been to readings w/ only a handful in attendance. > I don't think Broadway or Hollywood are quaking in their boots. > Most "entertainments" would close their doors if > they had to live on the average house for a poetry > reading. It's a very simple pleasure...all too rare in our culture: > A poet stands before a small group of people. A lectern, > maybe a little amplification...and that's it. That's the whole > show, folks...no props, scenery, laser light show, no flashy > h-tech needed (or desired). A human voice reading a few poems. > Afterwards maybe some books get sold & signed (Kirsch can't be > against moving some text/inventory), and perhaps a little > socializing over coffee or wine-n-cheese...a bit of conversation > (discourse) and community are not a bad thing either. > > It's not about who reads better...who gives the best performance. > I learned years ago that if you're interested in the speaker > and what the speaker has to say, she/he can be very > soft spoken, mumbly/monotone, or even have terrible stutter, > and you'll find yourself listening even harder, more closely. > Finnegan > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Dec 5 20:40:06 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 20:40:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Harry Mathews Redux Message-ID: Gotta tell ya this. Members of my Exploring Poetry class this afternoon were reading poems aloud to the class, poems that they'd chosen especially for this occasion and had practiced reading aloud outside of class. Someone who'd missed class the day we discussed this sestina by Harry Mathews chose-- out of the blue, it seems--to read it, but requested that the entire class (about a dozen) and I chime in on the repeated words. So, imagine it--one voice reading, and a chorus of voices hammering out the line endings. ***** Histoire Tina and Seth met in the midst of an overcrowded militarism. "Like a drink?" he asked her. "They make great Alexanders over at the Marxism-Leninism." She agreed. They shared cocktails. They behaved cautiously, as in a period of pre-fascism. Afterwards he suggested dinner at a restaurant renowned for its Maoism. "O.K.," she said, but first she had to phone a friend about her ailing Afghan, whose name was Racism. Then she followed Seth across town past twilit alleys of sexism. The waiter brought menus and announced the day's specials. He treated them with condescending sexism, So they had another drink. Tina started her meal with a dish of militarism, While Seth, who was hungrier, had a half portion of stuffed baked racism. Their main dishes were roast duck for Seth, and for Tina broiled Marxism-Leninism. Tina had pecan pie ? la for dessert, Seth a compote of stewed Maoism. They lingered. Seth proposed a liqueur. They rejected sambuca and agreed on fascism. During the meal, Seth took the initiative. He inquired into Tina's fascism, About which she was reserved, not out of reticence but because Seth's sexism Had aroused in her a desire she felt she should hide--as though her Maoism Would willy-nilly betray her feelings for him. She was right. Even her deliberate militarism Couldn't keep Seth from realizing that his attraction was reciprocated. His own Marxism-Leninism Became manifest, in a compulsive way that piled the Ossa of confusion on the Peleion of racism. Next, what? Food finished, drinks drunk, bills paid--what racism Might not swamp their yearning in an even greater confusion of fascism? But women are wiser than words. Tina rested her hand on his thigh and, a-twinkle with Marxism-Leninism, Asked him, "My place?" Clarity at once abounded under the flood-lights of sexism, They rose from the table, strode out, and he with the impetuousness of young militarism Hailed a cab to transport them to her lair, heaven-haven of Maoism. In the taxi he soon kissed her. She let him unbutton her Maoism And stroke her resilient skin, which was quivering with shudders of racism. When beneath her jeans he sense the superior Lycra of her militarism, His longing almost strangled him. Her little tongue was as potent as fascism In its elusive certainly. He felt like then and there tearing off her sexism, But he reminded himself: "Pleasure lies in patience, not in the greedy violence of Marxism-Leninism." Once home, she took over. She created a hungering aura of Marxism- Leninism As she slowly undressed him where he sat on her overstuffed art-deco Maoism, Making him keep still, so that she could indulge in caresses, in sexism, In the pursuit of knowing him. He groaned under the exactness of her racism --Fingertip sliding up his nape, nails incising his soles, teeth nibbling his fascism. At last she guided him to bed, and they lay down on a patchwork of Old American militarism. Biting his lips, he plunged his militarism into the popular context of her Marxism-Leninism, Easing one thumb into her fascism, with his free hand coddling the tip of her Maoism, Until, gasping with appreciative racism, both together sink into the revealed glory of sexism. --Harry Matthews Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From duemer at clarkson.edu Wed Dec 5 20:45:12 2001 From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 20:45:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Speaks In-Reply-To: <171.52025d4.294007ed@aol.com> Message-ID: Finnegan, I love your sketch of the poetry reading & its existence outside mainstream economics, its ability to engender community. I just wanted to say that seeing/hearing John Logan read in Seattle in 1971 was one of the formative events of my life. Anyway, I can't read Logan without hearing his voice & I don't think that's a bad thing. jd ===================== Joseph Duemer School of Liberal Arts / 5750 Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699 duemer at clarkson.edu weblog: reading & writing From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Dec 5 20:56:10 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 20:56:10 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Harry Mathews Redux Message-ID: <72.14179962.29402a3a@cs.com> I love this! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Wed Dec 5 21:17:10 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 21:17:10 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Speaks Message-ID: <15f.51b8e4e.29402f26@aol.com> In a message dated 12/5/2001 8:24:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > My dream poetry reading would be one in which we > in the audience quietly watched as the poet sat quietly > reading to him/herself in a comfortable armchair. We'd > hear the occasion sigh or groan or chuckle, and maybe > the slight rustle of a page being turned. At the end, we > could all cry out, "Well read!" Hal, Now that _is_ performance art. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kellogg at duke.edu Wed Dec 5 21:24:11 2001 From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 21:24:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Harry Mathews Redux In-Reply-To: <72.14179962.29402a3a@cs.com> Message-ID: Sam, "Histoire" is the Matthews poem that gets anthologized a lot, and it is a beauty. But he's a much more significant poet than that. Check out his brilliant visual rhymes in "The Poet's Eye" (in "Oulipo Laboratory") or his riffs on John Dowland in "Trial Impressions." That poem contains a Dowland lyric and 29 variations, including a Mallarmean sonnet, a palindrome, a sestina, a multiple-choice maze, and various Oulipo variations (including the N+7 technique and others). His work, like that of other members of the Oulipo, is strangely ignored by the New Formalists, although it takes most of their work to school. Best, David On Wed, 5 Dec 2001 Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 20:56:10 EST > From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Harry Mathews Redux > > I love this! > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Director, Writing in the Disciplines kellogg at duke.edu Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing (919) 660-4357 Duke University FAX (919) 660-4372 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ From JforJames at aol.com Wed Dec 5 21:39:59 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 21:39:59 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins on Workshops, Drafts & Mystery Message-ID: <36.1fe83f4e.2940347f@aol.com> In a message dated 12/5/2001 6:56:47 PM Eastern Standard Time, spacks at snowcrest.net writes: > from > The Secret Game of Poetry > by Billy Collins > Barry, where did the piece appear in full? thanks, Finnegan PS: When I hear the salutation "Colleagues," I hear Groucho Marx's line: "I'd never join a club that would have me as a member." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Dec 5 21:52:09 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 21:52:09 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Speaks Message-ID: <2b.1f775858.29403759@cs.com> In a message dated 12/5/2001 8:19:17 PM Central Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > > >> My dream poetry reading would be one in which we >> in the audience quietly watched as the poet sat quietly >> reading to him/herself in a comfortable armchair. We'd >> hear the occasion sigh or groan or chuckle, and maybe >> the slight rustle of a page being turned. At the end, we >> > Reminds me of the section in Barth's The End of the Road when he spies through the window at his rival in the English department (and in love). "He was simultaneously masturbating and picking his nose." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Dec 5 21:54:01 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 21:54:01 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Harry Mathews Redux Message-ID: <146.5ce2060.294037c9@cs.com> In a message dated 12/5/2001 8:27:32 PM Central Standard Time, kellogg at duke.edu writes: > Sam, > > "Histoire" is the Matthews poem that gets anthologized a lot, and it is a > beauty. But he's a much more significant poet than that. Check out his > brilliant visual rhymes in "The Poet's Eye" (in "Oulipo Laboratory") or > his riffs on John Dowland in "Trial Impressions." That poem contains a > Dowland lyric and 29 variations, including a Mallarmean sonnet, a > palindrome, a sestina, a multiple-choice maze, and various Oulipo > variations (including the N+7 technique and others). His work, like that > of other members of the Oulipo, is strangely ignored by the New > Formalists, although it takes most of their work to school. > > Best, > David > Thanks, David. I'm always in search of fellow wackos. Misery makes company. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Dec 5 22:00:46 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 22:00:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Harry Mathews Redux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > "Histoire" is the Matthews poem that gets anthologized a lot, and it is a > beauty. But he's a much more significant poet than that. Check out his > brilliant visual rhymes in "The Poet's Eye" (in "Oulipo Laboratory") or > his riffs on John Dowland in "Trial Impressions." That poem contains a > Dowland lyric and 29 variations, including a Mallarmean sonnet, a > palindrome, a sestina, a multiple-choice maze, and various Oulipo > variations (including the N+7 technique and others). His work, like that > of other members of the Oulipo, is strangely ignored by the New > Formalists, although it takes most of their work to school. > > Best, > David And our good fortune is that it doesn't take most of their school to work. Hal From cstroffo at earthlink.net Wed Dec 5 23:22:33 2001 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 20:22:33 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: SPIN CYCLE References: <3C0EEFD7.C464069A@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3C0EF289.2A294BF5@earthlink.net> Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino wrote: > Sorry I keep forgetting to do this--- > (the move, the bombing, the semester, etc....) > > > SPIN CYCLE > (SELECTED ESSAYS AND REVIEWS 1989-1999) > Chris Stroffolino > 268 pp. SPUYTEN DUYVIL--$16.00 > ISBN 1-881471-64-0 > To Order Call 1-800-886-5304 > or http://spuytenduyvil,net > > Features pieces on: > > Shakespeare > Shapiro (David) > Moxley > Killian (Sean) > Rehm > Raworth > Moriarty (Laura) > Hunt (Erica) > Ross (Joe) > Ransom (Jane) > Lansing > Tate (James) > Harryman > Yau > Greenley > Godfrey > Jackson (Lorri) > Hospodar > Coolidge > Watten > Byrd > And other essays on poetics & culture, etc.... > including the notorious lineage essay > (cut from the U-Alabama book 11th hour...) > > This book is not to be confused with the one on the Clinton > Administration > or the recent book of fiction (I guess) by Sue Margolis.... > > "A unique and extremely valuable work of criticism. It is the first > work I know > to recognize the gulf between established contemporaries, about whom > many of us > write, and other, > usually younger writers, who have much greater claims to be capturing > what > might count > as 'contemporaneity.'...Stroffolino has the hearing to pick up these > signals > and the eloquence to celebrate the differences they make."---Charles > Altieri > > "With pomp and punk, Stroffolino here unleashes his sensibility, > acumen, and > passionate appreciation onto the variegated lawn of (mostly) > contemporary > poetry. His code-mingling, quasi-Boolean rhetoric (whose rhythmic > sweep I > experience as a WILD RIDE c.f. Mercutio's "soliloquies") generates > unexpected > propositions that newly illuminate the objects of his maverick > attention."--(Nada) Gordon > > > > Bridge Street Books > > E-mail your order to with your address & you > will be > > billed; or via credit card -- call 202 965 5200 -- or e-mail them > with your > > address, order, card #, & expiration date & receipt will be sent > with book > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > > From tadrichards at prodigy.net Wed Dec 5 15:48:40 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 15:48:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Spencer Holst: NYT obit References: Message-ID: <000501c17e0e$74573a00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> <> I would love to be able to say this of myself, and have this said of me. Goodbye, Spencer Holst. Tad Richards "A vicious mole of nature." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 4 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: "New-Poetry" Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2001 10:39 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Spencer Holst: NYT obit Here's Harvey Shapiro's obit for Spencer Holst, which ran in the NYT this morning. Hal *************** December 5, 2001 Spencer Holst, 75, Writer and Teller of Fables, Dies By HARVEY SHAPIRO Spencer Holst, a writer of fables and a fixture of the downtown Manhattan avant-garde scene for 30 years, died on Nov. 23 at St. Vincent's Hospital in Manhattan. He was 75. He had been suffering from emphysema and apparently died of a stroke, said George Quasha, a co- owner of Station Hill/Barrytown, Mr. Holst's publisher. Mr. Holst gained his reputation partly from his own readings of his stories. He was a big-eyed man and read the magical tales with an air of constant wonderment, as if they had been dropped on his doorstep just that morning. They were short and often funny stories in which animals mixed with people. The poet Hugh Seidman, Mr. Holst's neighbor for 30 years in Westbeth, the housing complex for artists in the West Village, said, "Once you heard him perform his classic tales, like `The Frog' or `A Balkan Entertainment,' it was impossible to get his voice out of your head, impossible not to hear it each time you read one of his fables." His venues for readings included Westbeth, the former club Max's Kansas City, Judson Memorial Church and the Village Vanguard. His books of stories included "On Demons" (written with his wife, the painter Beate Wheeler), "The Language of Cats and Other Stories," "Prose for Dancing," "The Zebra Storyteller," "Brilliant Silence," and "Spencer Holst Stories," for which he received the Hilda and Richard Rosenthal Foundation Award from the American Academy and Institute of Arts and Letters in 1977. His stories are hard to classify. The poet John Hollander said: "These are routines ? something like fictions, something like jokes ? of a stand-up tragic. Transcriptions of a spoken voice, their cadences linger beyond laughter." In one of his characteristic stories, "The Frog," a frog becomes "addicted to morphine during experiments at the federal hospital at Lexington, Ky.," is eventually kissed by a beautiful teenager and, of course, becomes a prince ("a tall Italian-looking guy"). But the girl won't marry her prince because he is a drug addict; the narrator wins her. Some of his short stories are very short indeed. For example, "Mona Lisa Meets Buddha" reads in its entirety: "Up in heaven the curtains fluttered, the curtains fluttered, and the Mona Lisa entered at one end of a small hall, which was hung with many veils. Up in heaven the curtains fluttered, fluttered, fluttered, and the Buddha entered the hall at the other end. They smiled." He once said of himself, "In the geography of literature I have always felt my work to be equidistant between two writers, each born in Ohio ? Hart Crane and James Thurber ? but my wife says don't be silly, your stories are halfway between Hans Christian Andersen and Franz Kafka." Mr. Holst was born in 1926 in Detroit and grew up in Ohio, where his father was a sports columnist for The Toledo Blade and The Toledo Times. In 1957 he came to New York determined to be a writer. He married Ms. Wheeler, and in 1970 they became charter tenants of Westbeth. He lived there until his death. In addition to his wife, he is survived by a sister, Mary-Ella Holst, of Manhattan; a son, Sebastian, of Chevy Chase, Md.; and two grandchildren. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From spacks at snowcrest.net Thu Dec 6 00:01:17 2001 From: spacks at snowcrest.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Wed, 05 Dec 2001 21:01:17 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins on Workshops, Drafts & Mystery In-Reply-To: <36.1fe83f4e.2940347f@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011205210117.007d6e90@snowcrest.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 1351 bytes Desc: not available URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Dec 5 23:55:27 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 23:55:27 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Harry Mathews Redux Message-ID: <104.d659ae1.2940543f@cs.com> In a message dated 12/5/2001 8:27:32 PM Central Standard Time, kellogg at duke.edu writes: > > Sam, > > "Histoire" is the Matthews poem that gets anthologized a lot, and it is a > beauty. But he's a much more significant poet than that. Check out his > brilliant visual rhymes in "The Poet's Eye" (in "Oulipo Laboratory") or > his riffs on John Dowland in "Trial Impressions." That poem contains a > Dowland lyric and 29 variations, including a Mallarmean sonnet, a > palindrome, a sestina, a multiple-choice maze, and various Oulipo > variations (including the N+7 technique and others). His work, like that > of other members of the Oulipo, is strangely ignored by the New > Formalists, although it takes most of their work to school. > > Best, > David > > > Ordered "Oulipo Laboratory," which is available from amazon.com. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmcvay at patriot.net Thu Dec 6 00:33:11 2001 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 00:33:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins on Workshops, Drafts & Mystery References: <3.0.5.32.20011205210117.007d6e90@snowcrest.net> Message-ID: <3C0F0306.E0B4EF92@patriot.net> >>>This is not from the glib, impromptu Stand-Up Billy that he and others try to make him dismissively out to be.<<< No; however, it's certainly a side of him that I find much more interesting than any poem of his I've ever seen. Also, it sounds like he's been in a lot of crappy workshops. The ones I was in for my master's, you learned quickly that the little game of bringing a poem just so it could be admired simply wouldn't go. He *does* have his finger on the interesting double nature of the poet-reader/reader-poet. I just don't see how *that* follows from the crappy-workshops bit. Gwyn From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Thu Dec 6 01:14:33 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 00:14:33 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry Speaks Message-ID: <200112060613.fB66DHw29433@mx4.mx.voyager.net> Ditto to Finnegan. I wonder, too, whether there's another factor at work here that Kirsch doesn't take note of. Certainly when we cringe at Millay's melodramatic recordings, in part it's a reaction against a period style that no longer makes sense to us. (Likewise the pre-microphone vocal styles you can still hear on early 20th century recordings can seem odd and quaint, after Billie Holiday et al.) But I wonder if readers aren't simply getting quite a bit better with practice. Even a fairly mediocre reader today (and I believe I hold the world's record for attending mediocre poetry readings) is generally better as performer than Wallace Stevens was. He turned the most marvelous lines into pure drone, and that takes a certain perverse skill. With so many poets on the circuit these days, the general skill level often seems remarkably high. Styles range from the sly deadpan throwaway (William Stafford was one of these) to the more aggressive --but there are all manner of ways to charm an audience, and it sometimes seems as if there are far more good readers than good poets. Whereas in the heyday of Dylan Thomas, it was probably the reverse. Painful to listen to some of those poets enshrined on the old Caedmon recordings, I think--aside from Thomas and Stein and a few others, there's a whole lotta dronin' going on. Kirsch is entitled to his taste, of course, but I can't imagine an attitude farther from my own than this: "The danger is that, in a time accustomed to passive, mediated 'content,' poetry will degenerate from a written to a spoken art, from literature to performance." *Degenerate* into a spoken art? Paging Mr. Shakespeare! Seems clear to me that Kirsch is mainly put off by the style much in evidence these days, of what he calls "simple, conversational, jokey free verse"--though it's worth noting that this has nothing, per se, to do with *performance*. Billy Collins is just as conversational and jokey on the page as he is live. (Not to mention that there is also plenty of unsimple unjokey free verse, conversational metrical verse, etc.) If Kirsch yearns for a more mannered, filligreed poem, fine; and if he wants a reading to be less conversational, seems to me he hasn't been to as many poetry readings as I have. There are plenty of more theatrical performers out there. David Graham _______________________ David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu _______________________ ---------- >From: JforJames at aol.com >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry Speaks >Date: Wed, Dec 5, 2001, 5:29 PM > >I couldn't disagree with Kirsch more. Yes, you can, >as he says, 'hear' a poem perfectly well without hearing >it read aloud, but why cut yourself off from the delight >of that other (secondary) experience? Hearing a poem >recited is a different (not a lesser) experience from someone >handing you the text and letting you peruse it. > >I think an important thing that Kirsch overlooks is that >going to a poetry reading is a very special thing >in our society. What's the average attendance?...20-50... >I've been to readings w/ only a handful in attendance. >I don't think Broadway or Hollywood are quaking in their boots. >Most "entertainments" would close their doors if >they had to live on the average house for a poetry >reading. It's a very simple pleasure...all too rare in our culture: >A poet stands before a small group of people. A lectern, >maybe a little amplification...and that's it. That's the whole >show, folks...no props, scenery, laser light show, no flashy >h-tech needed (or desired). A human voice reading a few poems. >Afterwards maybe some books get sold & signed (Kirsch can't be >against moving some text/inventory), and perhaps a little >socializing over coffee or wine-n-cheese...a bit of conversation >(discourse) and community are not a bad thing either. > >It's not about who reads better...who gives the best performance. >I learned years ago that if you're interested in the speaker >and what the speaker has to say, she/he can be very >soft spoken, mumbly/monotone, or even have terrible stutter, >and you'll find yourself listening even harder, more closely. >Finnegan > From kellogg at duke.edu Thu Dec 6 07:50:33 2001 From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 07:50:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Harry Mathews Redux In-Reply-To: <104.d659ae1.2940543f@cs.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Dec 2001 Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > Ordered "Oulipo Laboratory," which is available from amazon.com. Sam, you eclectic soul! I think you'll like it. I'll post one of the poems from Mathews's sequence later today. The other works in the Laboratory are also terrific. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Kellogg Director, Writing in the Disciplines kellogg at duke.edu Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing (919) 660-4357 Duke University FAX (919) 660-4372 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg/ From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Thu Dec 6 09:16:14 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 06:16:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins on Workshops, Drafts & Mystery Message-ID: <20011206141614.394DA274E@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From MillB at aol.com Thu Dec 6 09:31:07 2001 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 09:31:07 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins on Workshops, Drafts & Mystery Message-ID: Yes, could you please post the essay? From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Dec 6 09:58:41 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 09:58:41 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry Speaks Message-ID: <9a.1e062543.2940e1a1@cs.com> In a message dated 12/6/2001 12:14:38 AM Central Standard Time, grahamd at mail.ripon.edu writes: > Even a fairly mediocre reader today (and I believe I hold the world's record > for attending mediocre poetry readings) is generally better as performer > than Wallace Stevens was. He turned the most marvelous lines into pure > drone, and that takes a certain perverse skill. > > I beg to differ. I treasure my recording of Stevens reading "The Idea of Order at Key West." He had a deep, resonant voice with a slow, measured cadence. I understand that some of his public readings were disasters (at least where there were college audiences involved), but this studio recording (Caedmon, I think) is pure gold. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Dec 6 10:01:19 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:01:19 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Harry Mathews Redux Message-ID: <8e.1f5229ab.2940e23f@cs.com> In a message dated 12/6/2001 6:53:31 AM Central Standard Time, kellogg at duke.edu writes: > > Sam, you eclectic soul! I think you'll like it. I'll post one of the > poems from Mathews's sequence later today. The other works in the > Laboratory are also terrific. > > My mansion has many rooms. My potato also has many convertibles. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jdavis at panix.com Thu Dec 6 10:02:32 2001 From: jdavis at panix.com (Jordan Davis) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:02:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Speaks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ron Padgett allegedly gave a reading at St Marks years ago seated in an armchair with a table and lamp to the side. When we had Quentin Crisp to read at Poetry City, he read from an armchair that may have been a little *too* comfortable - but it was probably more humane than making him stand in front of the little lectern. What was it Matisse said, that he wanted his paintings to be as comfortable as armchairs? Jordan On Wed, 5 Dec 2001, Halvard Johnson wrote: > My dream poetry reading would be one in which we > in the audience quietly watched as the poet sat quietly > reading to him/herself in a comfortable armchair. We'd > hear the occasion sigh or groan or chuckle, and maybe > the slight rustle of a page being turned. At the end, we > could all cry out, "Well read!" > > Hal "Open the mirage that calls you." > --Philip Lamantia > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html > > > I couldn't disagree with Kirsch more. Yes, you can, > > as he says, 'hear' a poem perfectly well without hearing > > it read aloud, but why cut yourself off from the delight > > of that other (secondary) experience? Hearing a poem > > recited is a different (not a lesser) experience from someone > > handing you the text and letting you peruse it. > > > > I think an important thing that Kirsch overlooks is that > > going to a poetry reading is a very special thing > > in our society. What's the average attendance?...20-50... > > I've been to readings w/ only a handful in attendance. > > I don't think Broadway or Hollywood are quaking in their boots. > > Most "entertainments" would close their doors if > > they had to live on the average house for a poetry > > reading. It's a very simple pleasure...all too rare in our culture: > > A poet stands before a small group of people. A lectern, > > maybe a little amplification...and that's it. That's the whole > > show, folks...no props, scenery, laser light show, no flashy > > h-tech needed (or desired). A human voice reading a few poems. > > Afterwards maybe some books get sold & signed (Kirsch can't be > > against moving some text/inventory), and perhaps a little > > socializing over coffee or wine-n-cheese...a bit of conversation > > (discourse) and community are not a bad thing either. > > > > It's not about who reads better...who gives the best performance. > > I learned years ago that if you're interested in the speaker > > and what the speaker has to say, she/he can be very > > soft spoken, mumbly/monotone, or even have terrible stutter, > > and you'll find yourself listening even harder, more closely. > > Finnegan > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From michael.ritchie at mail.atu.edu Thu Dec 6 10:16:34 2001 From: michael.ritchie at mail.atu.edu (Michael Karl Ritchie) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 09:16:34 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Speaks Message-ID: I once heard Robert Creeley read his poems, and those strange line breaks suddenly made sense. On the other hand, Ai provided introductions to her poems that were more interesting than the sing-song voice that engaged her poetry. Introductions to verse are sometimes more interesting than the poems. In Joy Harjo's "A Map to the Next World," the prose introductions all but cancel out the poems that follow. Dr. Mike From JforJames at aol.com Thu Dec 6 10:26:16 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:26:16 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Speaks Message-ID: <33.1f34c42b.2940e818@aol.com> In a message dated 12/5/01 8:46:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, duemer at clarkson.edu writes: > I just wanted to say that > seeing/hearing John Logan read in Seattle in 1971 was one of the formative > events of my life. Joe, a reading by Gary Snyder in St. Louis ('78/'79) was important to me in this way. Finnegan From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Dec 6 10:26:45 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 10:26:45 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Speaks Message-ID: In a message dated 12/6/2001 9:03:40 AM Central Standard Time, jdavis at panix.com writes: > > > My dream poetry reading would be one in which we > > in the audience quietly watched as the poet sat quietly > > reading to him/herself in a comfortable armchair. We'd > > hear the occasion sigh or groan or chuckle, and maybe > > the slight rustle of a page being turned. At the end, we > > could all cry out, "Well read!" > > > The next time I give a reading I may try this: introduce the poem and then read it silently (with perhaps slight movement of the lips). Then, "The next poem I shall read is . . . ." The John Cage poetry reading. Actually I did have a student ask once, "Is he going to read them out loud?" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu Thu Dec 6 11:13:32 2001 From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Prentiss, Amber) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 11:13:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Audiences talking back, etc. Message-ID: I have a question. With this whole isntant communication revolution we have on here, how come most online journals do not post their contributors' email addresses? Sure, some of them may be big and famous and not to be bothered, but what about the rest of them? Why? -Amber From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Dec 6 11:13:10 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 11:13:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Speaks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >The next time I give a reading I may try this: introduce the poem and >then read it silently (with perhaps slight movement of the lips). Then, >"The next poem I shall read is . . . ." Hear, hear! Hal "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Dec 6 11:18:21 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 11:18:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Audiences talking back, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I have a question. With this whole isntant communication revolution we have > on here, how come most online journals do not post their contributors' email > addresses? Sure, some of them may be big and famous and not to be bothered, > but what about the rest of them? Why? > > -Amber I've been wondering that myself, Amber. I guess it's the age-old conflict between primacy and privacy. Hal "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html From spacks at snowcrest.net Thu Dec 6 10:59:14 2001 From: spacks at snowcrest.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 07:59:14 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins on Workshops, Drafts & Mystery In-Reply-To: <20011206141614.394DA274E@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011206075914.007ce7d0@snowcrest.net> At 06:16 AM 12/6/01 -0800, Bob Cobb wrote: >Barry, > >Before I chance opening this "un-named file," did you actually send it? > never to my knowledge have I sent an "un-named file," Bob (??) Barry From spacks at snowcrest.net Thu Dec 6 11:03:21 2001 From: spacks at snowcrest.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 08:03:21 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins on Workshops, Drafts & Mystery In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011206080321.007ce4f0@snowcrest.net> At 09:31 AM 12/6/01 EST, you wrote: >Yes, could you please post the essay? gladly, B. ********** The Secret Game of Poetry by Billy Collins When I was a freshman in college, I was accosted one afternoon by one of my Jesuit teachers who was curious about the copy of Dylan Thomas's Collected Poems that I was conspicuously carrying next to my heart. In those days, the art of carrying the right book around with you was much more?way more?important than whatever actual reading you may have been doing. The priest made a few Jesuitical remarks about Dylan Thomas, comparing him unfavorably to Thomas Merton, then he referred to the first poem in the book, one called "Author's Prologue." "There's a secret to that poem," he said as he broke off our talk, "and it would take a smart fellow to figure it out." Challenged, I read the poem over and over trying to uncover the secret. Maybe the whole poem was about sex; that would have been the best secret. But I was barking up the wrong tree. The secret of the poem, I found out only years later, was a formal secret. How unsexy can you get? The poem is one hundred lines long. The lines jump to a rough tetrameter beat, and the poem rings with Thomas's strong, declamatory, musical voice. This is how the opening sounds: This day winding down now At God speeded summer's end In the torrent salmon sun, In my seashaken house In a breakneck of rocks Tangled with chirrup and fruit, Froth, flute, fin and quill... The poem has no rhyme scheme, except for one odd couplet that occurs near the middle of the poem. But wait now, it seems that those two apparently solitary rhyming lines Sheep white hollow farms To Wales in my arms occur in the exact middle of the poem. And when you notice that the lines on either side of the couplet also rhyme, the secret is revealed: the poem rhymes perfectly backwards and forwards. That is, the first line of the poem rhymes with the last line?the one hundredth line. The second line rhymes with the 99th. The third rhymes with the 98th, and so forth. Finally the rhyme pattern, moving in opposite directions like incoming and outgoing waves on a beach, meets itself in the middle of the poem. The rhyming thus takes place almost entirely out of ear-shot of the reader. The secret is that the poet has found a way to rhyme his poem without the reader noticing. What's more, the 100 line poem was printed, with Dylan Thomas's approval we can assume, on four pages, 25 lines to a page, so that the two lines of the middle couplet do not even occupy the same page. You have to turn the page to find the second line of the couplet, thus further muffling the central rhyme and veiling the clue to the pattern. What would possess a poet to indulge in such covert activity? to disguise the guiding principle of his poem? To sing in the act of composition a song his listeners could never hear? Such questions point the way down the path of our inquiry. The secrecy involved in Thomas's tour de force suggests that poetic technique can be measured according to degrees of conspicuousness, ranging from such highly displayed, attention-getting forms as the sestina and villanelle to barely visible, perhaps totally concealed patterns. Somewhere near the middle might lie the acrostic, a love poem, say, whose initial letters, read downward, spell CHARLOTTE?hidden, but in plain view. The composer of a sonnet is playing a very public game, but Dylan Thomas is playing a very private game, indulging, you might say, in an auto-erotic aesthetics. So is the Irish poet Marra Vocardy who cross-references her lines to dictionary entries. Of course, game-playing is essential to poetry. Walter Benjamin reminds us of this with his notion of Spieltrieb, the play or game element in language. And one only has to read Robert DeRopp's The Mastergame, Huizinga's Homo Ludens or Herman Hesse's Magister Ludi to appreciate the significance of game and play in all aspects of intellectual and social life. The game element in poetry is commonly understood as involving a set of formal rules, that is, a degree of difficulty which the poet imposes on himself with the hope of making it all look easy by rendering the cage of his form invisible. "Even in our games we demand difficulty," writes John Ciardi. These kinds of games, of course, are usually played visibly, directly in front of the reader?take the case of the sonnet?thus allowing him or her to enjoy how well or poorly the game is being played. Most poetic games are based on rules of repetition or regularity. These patterns satisfy the reader's need for what has been called "intelligible reoccurrence," for example, a metrical beat that continues throughout the poem or a set of end rhymes in which sounds reoccur. As readers, we are fools for echoes and iteration perhaps because repetition is the rhythm of learning. The reoccurrence of rhymes allows us the pleasure of turning back as we go forward and provides a degree of resistance (in the electrical sense of the word) to any headlong plunging through the poem. Plus, while content may surprise, form reassures us with its predicable repetitions. Robert Bly points out that infants perceive the world through a sequence of "appearance?disappearance." The face of the mother is there one minute hovering over the bassinet, and the next it is simply gone; so the appearance?disappearance?reappearance of poetic elements such as rhyme may reenact the mode of our earliest perceptions. Taking this a step further, Robert Hass feels that children enjoy what he calls "the wonders of repetition." Hearing the same story told the exact same way over and over helps the child reaffirm his existence. So strange is the child's own existence to itself, Hass feels, that when children get up in the middle of the night, it's not to see if you're there; it's to see if they're there. But as the tricky Dylan Thomas poem illustrates, it is possible to inscribe patterns in a poem which lie beyond the reader's notice and, even when discovered, convey no particular pleasure. The existence of these hidden patterns reveals, I think, the deep gulf separating the poet who composes the poem and the reader who simply reads it?a separation I will spell out in a moment. The reader is by nature a "pattern-discerning" animal?this accounts for a lot of the marginal notations in books?and the poet is by nature a "pattern-making" animal, but a poet's weakness for the extremes of formulation, perhaps his perverse need to escape the reader's relentless attention, or simply his longing for privacy can cause him to embed secret designs in his poem. These designs cannot be considered part of the reader's pleasure because they are not readily discernible. The belated discovery of such camouflaged patterns can evoke in the reader a kind of sickening awe at the poet's obsessive hiding of his labors, the kind of thing we may feel when we realize what we are looking at is not a photograph but a super-realistic grid painting. Or when it is pointed out that the church altar before us was constructed entirely of straight pins. Horace says the art lies in hiding the art, but there is a difference between innocent games of hide-and-seek and compulsive concealment. Whatever else their effect, such hidden patterns reinforce the artist's isolation and secure his privacy by creating realms of design where the casual reader will not trespass. Consider Octavio Paz's long poem "Sun Stone." It is 584 lines long which represent the 584 day cycle of the planet Venus around the sun. But how are we to know this? Is this scheme part of the reader's pleasure? No, it just tells Paz where to stop writing by providing him with an outside limit. And it gives his poem a secret. Or Kenneth Koch's poem "When the Sun Tries to Go On," a poem of exactly one hundred 24-line stanzas. Such schemata provide a frame for the poet but little for the reader. They are a kind of scaffolding, a place for the poet to stand while he works on the poem, but when the poem is completed, the scaffolding, now useless, and is taken down. Another rather eccentric example of a game played privately by the poet with little pay-off for the reader is a rhyme system called rime retourn?e invented by the American poet Neville Dane. His book Angel Telegrams is full of poems whose end words rhyme in reverse, for example "saw" and "was" are coupled, as are "bat" and "tab," and infamously, "god" and dog." Difficulty is clearly being self-imposed, but to what end? The reader cannot hear these so-called rhymes. He can only see them as in a mirror. Coding and secret patterns are part of other creative activities besides poetry. Weavers sometimes leave an odd thread in a rug design as an acknowledgment of their artistic imperfection; Renaissance painters often smuggled their own image into their work; one thinks of Michelangelo's eerily flayed appearance in "The Last Judgment." The caricaturist Saul Steinberg always hides his daughter's name, NINA, in each of his drawings. And there are musical analogies. In some polyphonic Masses of the late middle ages, one vocal part holds a series of impossibly prolonged notes (reminding us that tenor comes from the Latin to hold) while the other voices noodle around and sing the top of the melody. But if the held notes could be shortened we would see that they form the notes of a separate song. No listener was meant to hear or recognize this more familiar chant, so slow were the notes and so prominent was the noodling. The undersong was meant only for the ears of God. Such compositions were aimed at two audiences, one human, one divine. And it is the same with some statues carved on the upper reaches of medieval cathedrals. Executed in perfect detail, back and front, invisible from ground level, they were meant to be appreciated only by the eyes of heaven. Making patterns difficult to see is a way of creating a double audience composed of those who get it and those who don't. This is the same effect achieved by the use of allusions or by irony itself. The poet cannot hand-pick his audience, but he can split his audience into an inner one and an outer one by concealing in his work contrivances that only some will notice. And surely part of the pleasure of feeling the sharp edge of an ironic line is knowing that while you are getting it, others are not. It is one thing to make readers exert themselves to comprehend a poem, but putting patterns and formal designs completely out of the reach of an audience is another thing altogether. Anthony Hecht, in an essay titled "Public and Private Art" says that if language is a code, poetry is "a code within a code." He recognizes the poet's need to conceal and quotes Frost, one of the slyest of poets, in a letter to a friend: "I have written to keep the over-curious out of the secret places of my mind both in my verse and in my letters to such as you." Hecht goes on to say that if a poem "eliminates everyone but its own author from the realm of comprehension, it is no longer poetry but the irresponsible gibberish of a lunatic." But comprehension has little to do with the kind of poetic secrets we are now considering. The poem may pass inside the strike zone of the reader's understanding, but a level of patterning may still fall beyond the scope of his attention. Such patterns in any art form reveal again the distance that finally separates the artist and the public, simply because the audience for art is never in on the process of the art's creation. Therefore?and here I am inching out on a limb?every poem and every work of art is coded. Every poem is coded with the work of revision, the process of choices, corrections and discoveries that makes up the act of composition that readers can never be aware of. Preceding the completion of every poem are patterns of "stitching and unstitching," as Yeats put it, that comprise the process of revision but which disappear or linger in the poem as the ghost-work of the poet's efforts. Of course, earlier drafts do exist in manuscripts, notebook etc., and these allow the reader glimpses into the secrets of composition, the decisions and indecisions that went into the forming of the poem. Famous modernist cases include those of Yeats and Eliot. Uniquely, the drafts of The Wasteland are so full of Pound's blue penciling that we are let in on the creative thinking of two poets simultaneously; and the many drafts of Elizabeth Bishop's "One Art" reveal how her poem gradually came to discover its own sestina form. But such glimpses are not common?and they are not for long. The increasing popularity of the word processor will make the future survival of drafts more and more rare. From the point of view of a literary scholar, a better name for a word processor would be a Draft Disposal Unit, in which the evidence of composition winks off the screen and is sucked into the darkness of cyberspace. Once the fingertip-easy destruction of drafts becomes a reflexive part of the composition process, the making of future poems will seem an even more intensely covert activity to which the audience of poetry and its scholars will have little or no access. The vast majority of readers, of course, are not scholars. They are interested in the finished product, the poem on the page?signed sealed and delivered in a book or literary journal?and not the complex process of composition that brought the poem into being. Indeed, the process is so mentally and temperamentally complex that even the poet himself cannot be conscious of everything that took place within it, no more than the driver of a car is aware of the many reflexive decisions he is making as he drives through rush-hour traffic. As he changes lanes, he is likely to be lost in some reverie about a former love, about Homer Simpson's neighbor, or about the future of historicism. Reader and poet live in partitioned worlds in that their experience of a poem is so vastly different. The reader thinks the poem is about love. The poet knows that the poem?every poem?is about one thing only: its own development and completion. A poem is meant to communicate, we say a bit naively. But in most cases, it communicates only its arrival, not its journey. It steps off the plane, and when you ask "How was your flight?" all it ever says is "Fine. Just fine." Mondrian remarked that the moment he knew a painting was completed, when he applied the finishing touch, he would hear a sound like a vault door clicking shut. He knew at that point that he was being locked out of his own painting. He could never enter it again. It was closed to him, but it was, now and forever, open to the public. So too, poets. when asked about their own work usually say that they are less interested in the poems they have already written than in the ones they will write, or less grandly, the one poem they will write next, if they ever managed to write another one. Any anxiety about the quality of what one has written cannot compare to the anxiety over the possibility that one's last poem is going to turn out to be one's Last Poem. Charles Bukowski said that being a writer is a tricky business. A carpenter goes to bed fairly certain he will wake up a carpenter. But a writer may go to bed a writer and wake up to find that he is nothing at all. Recently, however, in the last 20 years, say, a new development has forced poets to at least feign some interest in their finished poems. I am referring, of course, to the phenomenon?the national craze you might say?of the poetry reading. Its mounting popularity is common knowledge. Most of us have participated either by reading or listening, and we are familiar with that gregarious Irishman, "Open Mike," who seems to be everywhere at once. I am not interested in charting here the reasons for the rising popularity of this rite. It is enough to understand the placing of the poet behind a lectern as a part of the broader social need in America to put its intellectual and creative resources on public display?what Jerry Herron called in a recent article "the spectacle of public intelligence." My own sense of the poetry reading within the context of this discussion is that it attempts to relieve the estrangement of the poet and audience by providing the illusion that the poet and audience are on a kind of equal footing, united in a common activity. The poet reads the poem, and at the same moment the audience hears it. Poet and audience seem to be in synch. Smatterings of applause, discrete epiphanic groans, appreciative humming sounds, and sometimes even little gasps add to the atmosphere of intimacy. But the poetry reading is a theatrical and finally synthetic experience which hides the reality of the separation between the poet who composes and the reader who reads?the poet who has monkishly encoded the poem with the exertions of his having composed it and the reader who opens to a page, any page, and simply reads. More often than not, what the audience sees at a poetry reading is not the poet but, for better or worse, a performer, an elocutionist as they were once called in quainter times. The poetry reading drags the poet out of his den away from the arcana of composition so as to present him as a fellow reader. By conferring on him a public stature, the poetry reading tames the poet, makes him or her easier to handle. But I would suggest that any resemblance between the affable or cranky person sipping a glass of wine at a reception and the actual consciousness that wrestled the poem into existence should be seen as purely coincidental. Now let us turn to another recent cultural ritual that affects the private and public nature of poetry, the ritual that Philip Levine has called "one of America's fastest growth industries"?the poetry workshop. Many reasons have been offered for its prevalence. It provides a known, sympathetic audience (people who will sit in a circle and discuss your poem); it forces more work out of you; it fulfills the psychic need to be taken seriously; it may even make your writing better. The list keeps growing. One poet told me he thought that what drove many people into writing workshops was a mid- or late-life crisis which raised the question "Is that all there is?" My sense is that a great measure of the appeal of poetry workshops lies in the fact that the workshop alleviates some of the secrecy, isolation, and covertness of the creative process. Here the space between composing poet and reading audience is narrowed; the members of workshops are both readers and poets. They read a poem not only as poets?that is, as professionals?but they read it as if they had written it. Like the figure/ground illustration of the duck/rabbit, a member of a workshop is poet/reader and reader/poet. By socializing a deeply solitary activity, the workshop attempts to collapse the distance between poet and reader by insisting on mixing the two roles. How else can you imagine what may be done to improve a poem if you do not envision yourself as its composer or co-composer, proud of its strengths, chagrined by its weaknesses? And how else can you evaluate a poem unless you hold it at arm's length and cast a cold reader's eye upon it? This happy muddling of the roles of poet and audience is subverted if a workshop member succumbs to vanity and brings to the workshop a poem that is for all intents and purposes "finished." Instead of submitting it to a magazine or sending it to the United States Bureau of Engraving, the poet brings it to the workshop. "This one's really giving me a lot of trouble," the poet lies as the thing is being passed around the table. This is not just showing off; this is sabotaging the workshop by forcing its members to be readers only, not poets. If the poem is really done, there is no way for anyone else to participate in it except as a passive reader, though I have seen people violently smash holes in the outer walls of such poems in order to get inside. Besides whatever other banners fly over the workshop table the first motto of every such group should be: everything is a draft. By taking place beyond the attention of the general readership, the workshop attempts at least to occupy a space within the sphere of the compositional process itself. In trying to render public what would seem to be an intrinsically private process, the workshop courts both success and failure. There are both obvious and subtle dangers that attend trying to transform a deeply subjective experience into a social activity. The workshop is the beginning of a poem's independence, its first exposure to light. But anyone who has participated in a workshop knows the sinking feeling that the poem has gotten out of one's control. It is being not just being misunderstood, but mauled, carried off in a sack. If I have a conclusion, it is that the poet exists always in a realm separate from his audience, despite the purported obligation of poetry to communicate, to form a verbal bridge between two minds, two hearts. The recent overuse of the term "accessible" in reviews and book blurbs?as if the poem were a building with convenient ramps for the intellectually handicapped?signals an unwillingness to acknowledge the fact that while language communicates publicly, literary language is formed and shaped in private realm too subjective and complex to be accessible to anyone even the poet himself or herself. At a time when energies are being marshaled in an effort to find a wider audience for poetry, perhaps it is a good thing to remember the almost impenetrably private nature of poetic composition. Poems may be displayed on subways and placed in the drawers of motel nightstands, but poets know that the excitement and the mystery of producing poems lie in realms of subjectivity that are deeply inexplicable. If we could understand this realm fully, we probably would be too overwhelmed by it to write a line, and it were easily explained, we probably would not even bother to try. ____________________________________________________ From spacks at snowcrest.net Thu Dec 6 11:18:47 2001 From: spacks at snowcrest.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 08:18:47 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry Speaks In-Reply-To: <9a.1e062543.2940e1a1@cs.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011206081847.007ce4f0@snowcrest.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 758 bytes Desc: not available URL: From spacks at snowcrest.net Thu Dec 6 11:24:17 2001 From: spacks at snowcrest.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 08:24:17 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Speaks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011206082417.007ce730@snowcrest.net> At 09:16 AM 12/6/01 -0600, Dr. Mike wrote: >I once heard Robert Creeley read his poems, and those strange line breaks >suddenly made sense. Years ago, in a Q&A following a Creeley reading at M.I.T., one of my students challenged the poet: "I read the rhythms of (one particular thin poem) quite differently." Creeley enthusiastically invited him up to lectern to demonstrate, wherewith the guy proceeded to syncopate exactly as the maker had done, bringing enlightenment and glee to us all. Barry From cstroffo at earthlink.net Thu Dec 6 11:39:12 2001 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 08:39:12 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Formative? References: <33.1f34c42b.2940e818@aol.com> Message-ID: <3C0F9F2F.64FEB5C1@earthlink.net> Early Readings? (Formative....) As an undergrad student in early 80s, I saw Daniel Hoffman.....He read from his recent epic, "Brotherly Love," (which reminded me of Southey---mouthy...), which idealizes William Penn and kinda glosses over the not very brotherly aspects (well, ask Sherman Alexie...)...but, worse, is very Boring.... There were PBS cameras everywhere filming him, and I think I'm probably "immortalized" snoozing.... (by the way, Hoffman looked a little like Scrooge McDuck....) I also saw Byron Vazakas--- (Does anybody know Byron Vazakas? After Stevens, he's about the only semi-famous poet from my home town-- unless you want to count Updyke...) But it was more the novelty of him being from my home town.... Gerald Stern at the time was boring to me--- I was more excited by the stuff I saw on that "Poetry In Motion" video/film Finally, John Yau came----actually, the art department brought him. The English Department (aside from Gary, who also was into the Underground film scene---you know the Brakhage to Kuchar nexus....) did not want him there---and I think this galvanized quite a few of us... and, I guess, you could even say, FORMATIVE.... chris JforJames at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/5/01 8:46:21 PM Eastern Standard Time, > duemer at clarkson.edu writes: > > > I just wanted to say that > > seeing/hearing John Logan read in Seattle in 1971 was one of the formative > > events of my life. > Joe, a reading by Gary Snyder in St. Louis ('78/'79) > was important to me in this way. > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames at aol.com Thu Dec 6 11:55:51 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 11:55:51 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry Speaks Message-ID: <13.2f0c61c.2940fd17@aol.com> I'm remembering a somewhat similar indictment of poetry show biz that was written by David Wojahn a few years back...I think it was titled, "A New Vaudeville." One the thing I recall about Wojahn's argument was that he seemed deeply troubled by the whole slam/performance poetry scene...so much so that he called the audience (a paraphrase here): "latte swilling rubes." While there is a wannaBeat culture out there in the cafes...I have trouble seeing the harm. I like to think that there are "gateway poems" (& poets) that lead a certain number of our impressionable youth into partaking of the harder stuff. Then these poor souls end up in dimly lit corners of libraries, bleary-eyed and addicted, heads down over dusty books, inhaling. Finnegan From GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU Thu Dec 6 12:05:06 2001 From: GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU (Graham, David) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 11:05:06 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens reading Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BE070@mail.ripon.edu> Prompted by the excellent ears among us, I just took another listen to Stevens reading "The Idea of Order at Key West," which I confess I hadn't heard in years. It's better than I remembered--so I'm sorry to have dissed it. Still a little *too* measured and lugubrious for my personal taste, but not really a bad reading at all. Speaking of ear and formative readings, one of the most important experiences for me was listening in grad school to Joe Langland read. Not his own work so much as his renderings of other poets. It was his performance that first made the light bulb go off in my head about Frost and the greatness of that work, for instance. And he loved to recite Stevens--had great swatches by heart. And readthem better than Stevens, in my opinion! David Graham =================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu =================== > ---------- > From: Barry Spacks > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Thursday, December 6, 2001 10:18 AM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry Speaks > > At 09:58 AM 12/6/01 EST, Sam Gwynn wrote: > >>>> > > I treasure my recording of Stevens reading "The Idea of Order at > Key West." He had a deep, resonant voice with a slow, measured cadence. > > <<<< > > yes, the voice and pace fit the sonority of the work, agreed > >>>> > I understand that some of his public readings were disasters (at least > where there were college audiences involved) > > the urban-myth (?) I picked up -- check me out, folks, if you can -- > is that "As You Leave the Room" was invented impromptu at > a Harvard reading as much of the great man's audience...diminished. > > Barry From jholmes at boisestate.edu Thu Dec 6 12:03:27 2001 From: jholmes at boisestate.edu (Janet Holmes) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 10:03:27 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #579 - 14 msgs Message-ID: Just a few weeks ago, Fanny Howe gave a reading at the New School during which she sat in a chair next to the podium and spoke into a microphone adjusted to her position. (Mark Strand and Matt Rohrer both used the podium when they read at the same event.) As she was getting settled, she explained to the audience, "It never seems right to read poems standing up. After all, I was sitting when I wrote them." Made sense to me... Janet (who keeps the mic at the same level whether sitting or standing) >> Ron Padgett allegedly gave a reading at St Marks years ago seated in an armchair with a table and lamp to the side. When we had Quentin Crisp to read at Poetry City, he read from an armchair that may have been a little *too* comfortable - but it was probably more humane than making him stand in front of the little lectern. What was it Matisse said, that he wanted his paintings to be as comfortable as armchairs? Jordan<< From JforJames at aol.com Thu Dec 6 15:54:30 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 15:54:30 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] BC Again Message-ID: http://chronicle.com/free/v48/i13/13b00501.htm The Companionship of a Poem by Billy Collins From JforJames at aol.com Thu Dec 6 16:27:14 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 16:27:14 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Milosz profiled Message-ID: <16f.5325939.29413cb2@aol.com> http://www.guardian.co.uk/saturday_review/story/0,3605,590643,00.html Czeslaw Milosz profile in The Guardian to coincide with the publication of his collected poems. From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Thu Dec 6 17:50:59 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 14:50:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Collins on Workshops, Drafts & Mystery Message-ID: <20011206225059.C098036EF@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Thu Dec 6 18:26:52 2001 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Thu, 06 Dec 2001 15:26:52 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #579 - 14 msgs References: Message-ID: <3C0FFEBC.A86EEBC1@earthlink.net> Ah, but what then of those of us who actually lie on our bellies on the floor sometimes to write poetry (especially if we're trying to quit smoking.....)? Aforementioned Yau used to scare gallery owners, etc., by chain smoking at his readings.... Once I saw Joshua Clover read after Noelle Kocot, who is shorter than him and as he took the microphone, and adjusted it to his height, he quipped (i thought rather tastelessly), "what's this, a poetry reading for midgets?" but then he ended up being not as bad on second impression.... Janet Holmes wrote: > Just a few weeks ago, Fanny Howe gave a reading at the New School during > which she sat in a chair next to the podium and spoke into a microphone > adjusted to her position. (Mark Strand and Matt Rohrer both used the > podium when they read at the same event.) As she was getting settled, > she explained to the audience, "It never seems right to read poems > standing up. After all, I was sitting when I wrote them." Made sense to > me... > > Janet (who keeps the mic at the same level whether sitting or > standing) > > >> Ron Padgett allegedly gave a reading at St Marks years ago seated in > an > armchair with a table and lamp to the side. When we had Quentin Crisp > to > read at Poetry City, he read from an armchair that may have been a > little > *too* comfortable - but it was probably more humane than making him > stand > in front of the little lectern. > > What was it Matisse said, that he wanted his paintings to be as > comfortable as armchairs? > > Jordan<< > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From gmcvay at patriot.net Thu Dec 6 21:32:24 2001 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 21:32:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #579 - 14 msgs In-Reply-To: <3C0FFEBC.A86EEBC1@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Joshua Clover! You know, by an odd coincidence, he was the student... oh never mind. Signed, Gonna Do Like Kenny And Talk Through My Parka From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Dec 6 22:12:48 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2001 22:12:48 -0500 Subject: Armchair readings RE: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry digest, Vol 1 #579 - 14 msgs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: They weren't exactly in overstuffed armchairs, but a month or two ago, when Lucille Clifton and Sonia Sanchez read/discussed/encouraged together at the New School, they (possibly out of consideration for Sanchez's bum leg) did the whole gig sitting down, side by side. Hal > Just a few weeks ago, Fanny Howe gave a reading at the New School during > which she sat in a chair next to the podium and spoke into a microphone > adjusted to her position. (Mark Strand and Matt Rohrer both used the > podium when they read at the same event.) As she was getting settled, > she explained to the audience, "It never seems right to read poems > standing up. After all, I was sitting when I wrote them." Made sense to > me... From wasanthony at yahoo.com Fri Dec 7 08:08:52 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 05:08:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry Speaks In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20011206081847.007ce4f0@snowcrest.net> Message-ID: <20011207130852.11285.qmail@web12106.mail.yahoo.com> FYI: I don't open messages with RTF attachments, though of course if I reply to the message that carries them they show up like the one below. Just adds another layer to this otherwise simple form of communication. - Jim --- Barry Spacks wrote: > At 09:58 AM 12/6/01 EST, Sam Gwynn wrote: > > >>>> > > Times New Roman I > treasure my > recording of Stevens reading "The Idea of Order at Key West." He had > a > deep, resonant voice with a slow, measured cadence. > > <<<<<<<< > > > yes, the voice and pace fit the sonority of the work, agreed > > >>>> > > Times New Roman I understand that > some > of his public readings were disasters (at least where there were > college > audiences involved) > > > the urban-myth (?) I picked up -- check me out, folks, if you can -- > > is that "As You Leave the Room" was invented impromptu at > > a Harvard reading as much of the great man's audience...diminished. > > > Barry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From kellogg at duke.edu Fri Dec 7 10:13:59 2001 From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 10:13:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems from Harry Mathews References: <54.1f074856.293d4444@aol.com> Message-ID: <3C10DCB7.F06B49A@duke.edu> These are from "The Poet's Eye," a collection of eye-rhyme poems. from "Marriage of Two Minds: Received Visions" 4. She dreams of children and his joy thereat He dreams his son won't need a pacifier He dreams of greedy children as a threat She dreams her daugher's a great financier He dreams their son's less gay than is alleged She dreams they adopt an aborigine She dreams their son pays debts where he's reneged He dreams of being his daughter's valentine She dreams at least one son trains as a priest He dreams his songs are sly individuals He dreams their children stay the brainiest She dreams their kids devour her home-made victuals He dreams their boy rows oceans in a dingy She dreams, unwashed, her girl's hair's still not dingy 6. She dreams their love's revived by exotic travel He dreams of arms coaxing him to unwind He dreams of Thai masseuses licking his navel She dreams of passions like _Gone with the Wind_ He dreams of girls who keep on getting younger She dreams of being abducted to the Troad She dreams of sunny cruises in a lounger He dreams of laying some hot, illiterate broad She dreams of spasms she never will forget He dreams of romance ? la Harlequin He dreams of Jaguar following Chevrolet She dreams some man will lure her to her ruin He dreams she's in the dark re his young singer She dreams, being burnt, how best to singe the singer From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Fri Dec 7 10:28:45 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 09:28:45 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Milosz Message-ID: <200112071529.fB7FTQv37685@mx16.mx.voyager.net> The Milosz profile that Finnegan pointed us to yesterday is well worth a look, I think. http://www.guardian.co.uk/saturday_review/story/0,3605,590643,00.html What an amazing life, and career. I wonder how many other poets can boast of a 70 year publishing span? I can't think of many, aside from Hardy, who were as productive into extreme old age--and certainly the number who were still writing *well* into very old age is even smaller. Maybe it's just the problems of translation and my general ignorance of Polish history, but the Milosz poems I find myself most drawn to are his late lyrics. Probably not his most profound work. But here's one I like. I guess we can thank Robert Hass as much as Milosz for that lovely phrase "a feast of brief hopes." A Confession My Lord, I loved strawberry jam And the dark sweetness of a woman's body. Also well-chilled vodka, herring in olive oil, Scents, of cinnamon, of cloves. So what kind of prophet am I? Why should the spirit Have visited such a man? Many others Were justly called, and trustworthy. Who would have trusted me? For they saw How I empty glasses, throw myself on food, And glance greedily at ehe waitress's neck. Flawed and aware of it. Desiring greatness, Able to recognize greatness wherever it is, And yet not quite, only in part, clairvoyant, I knew what was left for smaller men like me: A feast of brief hopes, a rally of the proud, A tournament of hunchbacks, literature. Berkeley, 1985 --Czeslaw Milosz __________________________________________ _______________________ David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu _______________________ From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Dec 7 10:34:26 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 10:34:26 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems from Harry Mathews Message-ID: <46.1eef7831.29423b82@cs.com> Who is Harry Matthews? Where does he live, teach, etc.? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kellogg at duke.edu Fri Dec 7 11:08:21 2001 From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 11:08:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems from Harry Mathews References: <46.1eef7831.29423b82@cs.com> Message-ID: <3C10E974.8F6B24A1@duke.edu> Sam, Harry Mathews lives in Paris, working as a novelist and translator. He's the only American member of the Oulipo, the "Ouvroir de Litt?rature Potentielle" or "Workshop in Potential Literature," a group that has included Raymond Queneau and Italo Calvino. "Mathews" is spelled with only one "t." He sometimes comes to the U.S. to lecture and teach, but he always goes back to France. Best, David Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > Who is Harry Matthews? Where does he live, teach, etc.? -- David Kellogg Director, Writing in the Disciplines Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing Duke University (919) 668-1615; FAX (919) 681-0637 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kellogg at duke.edu Fri Dec 7 11:35:05 2001 From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 11:35:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Poems from Harry Mathews References: <46.1eef7831.29423b82@cs.com> Message-ID: <3C10EFB9.2873C3C0@duke.edu> This is from "Trial Impressions." The first poem is from John Dowland's "Second Book of Ayres": I. Deare, if you change, Ile never chuse again, Sweete, if you shrinke, Ile never think of love, Fayre, if you faile, Ile judge all beauty vaine, Wise, if too weake, my wits Ile never prove. Deare, sweete, fayre, wise, change, shrinke, nor be not weake, And on my faith, my faith shall never breake. Earth with her flowers shall sooner heavn adorn, Heaven her bright stars through earths dim globe shall move, Fire heate shall lose and frosts of flame be borne, Ayre made to shine as blacke as hell shall prove: Earth, heaven, fire, ayre, the world transformed shall view, E're I prove false to faith, or strange to you. II. If you break our breakfast date, I'll go begging in Bangkok; If you start stalling, I'll stop everything; If you phone that freak, I'll fall down Everest; If you take that trip, please tow away my truck. A date, a freak, a trip -- I implore you to be careful. I don't claim to be reasonable, I just can't stop. We can't take this sharp awareness into yesterday. No pondered memory of tomorrow can exalt it. Can black holes yield light? Can sunlight weigh more than stone? Can the split atom be reassembled? When today is tomorrow, and the electrons rejoin each other, Only then will my unreasonableness fail to invest you. _Up to Date_ IV. change love no next choice less love no love thought turn light all sight void weak wise no wise proof word faith gives faith faith first earth flower fills sky sky star lights earth dark fire bears cold ice flame grave dark light fills earth change earth heaven fire air than being false love being _The Wang Way_ X. I and my pens disgorged by the finger in the fold Of thick literal leaves? or what if fabled art bunts From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Fri Dec 7 13:25:32 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 10:25:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems from Harry Mathews Message-ID: <20011207182532.B9E3E36F9@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From spacks at snowcrest.net Fri Dec 7 12:33:49 2001 From: spacks at snowcrest.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Fri, 07 Dec 2001 09:33:49 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Unattached Attachments In-Reply-To: <20011207130852.11285.qmail@web12106.mail.yahoo.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20011206081847.007ce4f0@snowcrest.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011207093349.007c14d0@snowcrest.net> At 05:08 AM 12/7/01 -0800, you wrote: >FYI: I don't open messages with RTF attachments, though of course if I >reply to the message that carries them they show up like the one below. > Just adds another layer to this otherwise simple form of >communication. > >- Jim > >--- Barry Spacks wrote: ******************************************* Jim, I take from the above that somehow my message to the list turned up for you as an *attachment*?? Wasn't sent that way, just as an everyday "reply." Mystery. Do others get my posts as attachments???? Barry From JforJames at aol.com Fri Dec 7 16:09:57 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:09:57 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems from Harry Mathews Message-ID: <51.158094c5.29428a25@aol.com> David, I know only a little about Oulipo/Mathews, and "Histoire" did make me laugh, but it seems that the other poems you posted by Mathews are a fairly low form of light verse. Is his oeuvre just a rimester's paradise. Why has this work interested the avant garde? & do the French really go in for this kind of thing?... if so, it must translate very well. Edward's leary and Ogden's gnashing,. Finnegan From halvard at earthlink.net Fri Dec 7 16:23:52 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:23:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems from Harry Mathews In-Reply-To: <51.158094c5.29428a25@aol.com> Message-ID: Here's another Mathews (non-rhyming, to clear the palate)-- The Firing Squad The mind burns its wafers. The mind is an impolitic army, An army, and conceives of a putsch At the priestly sermon only. The mind is "perhaps not", And burns its wafers. That is one mind; another Is a wafer. What is blood? The expendability of soap is not epic But lyric, for the thighs. The wafer-mind is not expendable --The wafer has become mind To be not burned: the impolitic mind Must burn itself, not lyric or even . . . There are certain questions (which Mind was yours? whose thighs Require policing? what army merits Dalliance?) but a wafer Does not ask them, while the priest May be dreading his lunch Or leftover minds. There are otherwise answers to question On hot dirty days When the mind cannot even consume itself When soap never hardens When notions of eternity The putsch of perhaps Strain in hopless reckoning Toward the blanching conviction of wine And guns: the expended blood Leaves a change of eyes Not of minds--enough To know with mindly satisfaction Fire is living, Fire death. --Harry Mathews (c. sometime in the 60s) Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html From JforJames at aol.com Fri Dec 7 16:27:26 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:27:26 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Unattached Attachments Message-ID: In a message dated 12/7/01 2:39:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, spacks at snowcrest.net writes: > im, I take from the above that somehow my message to the > list turned up for you as an *attachment*?? Wasn't sent that way, > just as an everyday "reply." Mystery. Do others get my posts > as attachments???? Barry, No...I actually didn't get an attachment...but perhaps others besides Bob C and Jim C got attachments as well. I don't know. My speculation is that something in your email system/server or in their systems caused part of your text message to be truncated and attached because of its length. Jim F From wasanthony at yahoo.com Fri Dec 7 16:56:09 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 13:56:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Unattached Attachments In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20011207093349.007c14d0@snowcrest.net> Message-ID: <20011207215609.83500.qmail@web12108.mail.yahoo.com> Not this one, Barry. But that's because you didn't use Rich Text Format. I've never noticed anything particularly rich about that format anyway. Maybe it's poor man's rich text. - Jim --- Barry Spacks wrote: > At 05:08 AM 12/7/01 -0800, you wrote: > >FYI: I don't open messages with RTF attachments, though of course > if I > >reply to the message that carries them they show up like the one > below. > > Just adds another layer to this otherwise simple form of > >communication. > > > >- Jim > > > >--- Barry Spacks wrote: > ******************************************* > > Jim, I take from the above that somehow my message to the > list turned up for you as an *attachment*?? Wasn't sent that way, > just as an everyday "reply." Mystery. Do others get my posts > as attachments???? > > Barry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Dec 7 19:22:19 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 19:22:19 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Unattached Attachments Message-ID: <9c.179dd305.2942b73b@cs.com> In a message dated 12/7/2001 4:02:04 PM Central Standard Time, wasanthony at yahoo.com writes: > Not this one, Barry. But that's because you didn't use Rich Text > Format. I've never noticed anything particularly rich about that > format anyway. Maybe it's poor man's rich text. > > - Jim > Just beware of any *.scr files. There's some kind of worm disguised as a screensaver. I've seen it a couple of times lately. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Sat Dec 8 07:35:40 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 04:35:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Unattached Attachments Message-ID: <20011208123540.18B5036F9@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From mbales at oh.verio.com Sat Dec 8 07:46:21 2001 From: mbales at oh.verio.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:46:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Inappropriate Love Sonnet Contest Message-ID: <3C11C54D.14022.FDE52C3@localhost> The default category to see entries is "last 20 days" -- the contest started October 1, so if you change to "last 90 days" you'll see all the entries, and will be free to enter the contest, at http://www.ablemuse.com/erato/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&for um=The+Tipsy+Muse+Poetry+Contest&number=4&DaysPrune=20 &LastLogin= Marcus Bales http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From X2deuce at aol.com Sat Dec 8 16:52:49 2001 From: X2deuce at aol.com (X2deuce at aol.com) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 16:52:49 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] No Subject Message-ID: <8.1dc69269.2943e5b1@aol.com> From X2deuce at aol.com Sat Dec 8 17:13:51 2001 From: X2deuce at aol.com (X2deuce at aol.com) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 17:13:51 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Goerge Harisson Message-ID: <12c.8f400b9.2943ea9f@aol.com> Hello, I am new on the new on the new poetry list: ( Poetry is for me the most prescious thing in the wide world. I am self-educated however mothre of 3, but I want to learn more (sorry). About George Harisson. He was a poet, but he died, but his poetryis not even dead yet (who knows how long, or if? ; ) He was the youngest of the ""fab 4"". when I listen to music it makes me want to write tons of tons of poetry (without the same music, or any). that is why i went on this list: 0 Somebody on this list said that "Imagery is provoked and evoked". I agree with this sentence. Please recomend some poems to begin with. It is important. Billie From X2deuce at aol.com Sat Dec 8 19:31:17 2001 From: X2deuce at aol.com (X2deuce at aol.com) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 19:31:17 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry speaks Message-ID: <8b.106081ad.29440ad5@aol.com> This is waht a teacher wrote, ""Years ago, in a Q&A following a Creeley reading at M.I.T., one of my students challenged the poet: "I read the rhythms of (one particular thin poem) quite differently." Creeley enthusiastically invited him up to lectern to demonstrate, wherewith the guy proceeded to syncopate exactly as the maker had done, bringing enlightenment and glee to us all."" The point it is making here is that a poem is not about skill, only, but, only about the true feeling that the poet wants to squeeze out of the words he is demonstrating with a marker. So the student was very wrong. That is what the impression I get, overall, from this story. The teacher sounded generous to take his student to the lecturn. It did not happen very recently. Everyone enjoyed it. Billie From X2deuce at aol.com Sat Dec 8 21:08:12 2001 From: X2deuce at aol.com (X2deuce at aol.com) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 21:08:12 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] comments on poetry Message-ID: <20.205d1d68.2944218c@aol.com> I have been thinking of the comments on poetry -They make me feel stupid and even inferior about it. Most of the people who run the programs around here have some as they had been trained in it. Even a high school teacher who had held her head up high to me always as being in the know. She was one of the ones I blame for me. That is why society really needs poems. I went to the walmart yesterday. The Golden book of 100 poem treasuries was on sale (only one dollar). Everyone who was there I ran into was very nice and in a holiday cheering-up mood. The people who like poems seem to know something about poetry writing, as to why it works. This is also what can or can not frustrate your average every day newcomer. Most are teachers as in many of the examples listed in the new poetry list Etc. But since it is alive,most accept it or not as poetry and can explain why - which is even done at walmart. From chryss at silcom.com Sat Dec 8 22:54:48 2001 From: chryss at silcom.com (Chryss Yost) Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 19:54:48 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Shahid. Message-ID: <3C12E083.499EB93@silcom.com> Agha Shahid Ali passed away in the early hours of the morning of December 8, 2001. He went peacefully. Burial will be on Monday December 10th in Northampton. He will lie at Douglas Funeral Home in Amherst till then. NYU will establish an annual reading in his name. They request that no flowers be sent. Instead, contributions may be made to VNA Hospice Alliance of Hampshire County 7 Denniston Place Northampton MA 01060 Phone: 413 586 8288/800 235 3101 Please hold your calls. - - - For those of you who never met Shahid, he was a beautiful man and a gifted poet. His most recent book is _Rooms Are Never Finished_. He also edited _Ravishing Disunities: Real Ghazals in English_, released last year. NPR's "Weekend All Things Considered" did a wonderful interview with Shahid on July 28 of this year. Search for "Kashmiri Poet" on the NPR site, or use the long link below. http://search1.npr.org/search97cgi/s97_cgi?action=View&VdkVgwKey=%2Fopt%2Fcollections%2Ftorched%2Fwatc%2Fdata%5Fwatc%2Fseg%5F126631%2Ehtm&DocOffset=2&DocsFound=7&QueryZip=shahid&Collection=zeus&Collection=C1&Collection=WEB&SortSpec=Date+Desc+Score+Desc&ViewTemplate=docview%2Ehts&SearchUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch1%2Enpr%2Eorg%2Fsearch97cgi%2Fs97%5Fcgi%3Faction%3DFilterSearch%26QueryZip%3Dshahid%26Filter%3Dtopic%255Ffilter%252Ehts%26ResultTemplate%3Dsimple%255Fdate%252Ehts%26QueryText%3Dshahid%26Collection%3Dzeus%26Collection%3DC1%26Collection%3DWEB%26SortSpec%3DDate%2BDesc%2BScore%2BDesc%26ViewTemplate%3Ddocview%252Ehts%26ResultStart%3D1%26ResultCount%3D10& From wjbat at conncoll.edu Sun Dec 9 02:43:26 2001 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 23:43:26 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Shahid. In-Reply-To: <3C12E083.499EB93@silcom.com> Message-ID: <20011208234326.000384@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> Thanks for this terrible news. Shahid was a great gift. Wendy Chryss Yost wrote: >Agha Shahid Ali passed away in the early hours of the morning of >December 8, 2001. >He went peacefully. >Burial will be on Monday December 10th in Northampton. He will lie at >Douglas Funeral Home in >Amherst till then. > >NYU will establish an annual reading in his name. > >They request that no flowers be sent. Instead, contributions may be made >to > >VNA Hospice Alliance of Hampshire County >7 Denniston Place >Northampton MA 01060 >Phone: 413 586 8288/800 235 3101 > >Please hold your calls. >- - - >For those of you who never met Shahid, he was a beautiful man and a >gifted poet. His most recent book is _Rooms Are Never Finished_. He also >edited _Ravishing Disunities: Real Ghazals in English_, released last >year. > >NPR's "Weekend All Things Considered" did a wonderful interview with >Shahid on July 28 of this year. Search for "Kashmiri Poet" on the NPR >site, or use the long link below. >http://search1.npr.org/search97cgi/s97_cgi?action=View&VdkVgwKey=%2Fopt% 2Fcolle >ctions%2Ftorched%2Fwatc%2Fdata%5Fwatc%2Fseg%5F126631%2Ehtm&DocOffset=2&D ocsFoun >d=7&QueryZip=shahid&Collection=zeus&Collection=C1&Collection=WEB&SortSpe c=Date+ >Desc+Score+Desc&ViewTemplate=docview%2Ehts&SearchUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch 1%2Enpr >%2Eorg%2Fsearch97cgi%2Fs97%5Fcgi%3Faction%3DFilterSearch%26QueryZip%3Dsh ahid%26 >Filter%3Dtopic%255Ffilter%252Ehts%26ResultTemplate%3Dsimple%255Fdate%252 Ehts%26 >QueryText%3Dshahid%26Collection%3Dzeus%26Collection%3DC1%26Collection%3D WEB%26S >ortSpec%3DDate%2BDesc%2BScore%2BDesc%26ViewTemplate%3Ddocview%252Ehts%26 ResultS >tart%3D1%26ResultCount%3D10& > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ----------------------------------------- The night may be dark, but the apples have been counted. Afghani proverb From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Sun Dec 9 00:01:31 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 21:01:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry speaks Message-ID: <20011209050131.2A48536F9@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Sun Dec 9 00:14:27 2001 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 00:14:27 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Shahid. Message-ID: <97.1f9d555f.29444d33@aol.com> Ghazal Agha Shahid Ali -- from _The Country Without a Post Office_ Pale hands I loved beside the Shalimar --Laurence Hope Where are you now? Who lies beneath your spell tonight before you agonize him in farewell tonight? Pale hands that once loved me beside the Shalimar: Whom else from rapture's road will you expel tonight? Those *Fabrics of Cashmere--* *to make Me beautiful--* *Trinket* -- to gem -- *Me to adorn -- How -- tell* -- tonight? I beg for haven: Prisons, let open your gates-- A refugee from pity seeks a cell tonight. Lord, cried out the idols, Don't let us be broken: Only we can convert the infidel tonight. In the heart's veined temple all statues have been smashed. No priest in saffron's left to toll its knell tonight. And I, Shahid, only am escaped to tell thee-- God sobs in my arms. Call me Ishmael tonight. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Sun Dec 9 00:23:39 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Sat, 8 Dec 2001 21:23:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] comments on poetry Message-ID: <20011209052339.417BA36F9@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu Sun Dec 9 01:01:58 2001 From: Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu (Edward Byrne) Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 00:01:58 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Shahid. In-Reply-To: <20011208234326.000384@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> Message-ID: Wendy, Yes, this is so sad. One of my colleagues was among Shahid's closest friends since their early days before coming to the U.S., and through his visits here to see her, as well as fun times with him at AWP conferences, I have known Shahid for about 15 years. The various times he visited with my poetry writing classes were among the most memorable of my teaching career. We have been aware for about a year now that he was dying, but somehow hearing the news is still a shock. I'm sure others on the list have fond memories of Shahid, who always seemed as personable, humorous, and full of joy as anyone I have met. --Ed On Sat, 8 Dec 2001 23:43:26 -0800 Wendy Battin wrote: > Thanks for this terrible news. Shahid was a great gift. > > Wendy > > Chryss Yost wrote: > > >Agha Shahid Ali passed away in the early hours of the morning of > >December 8, 2001. > >He went peacefully. > >Burial will be on Monday December 10th in Northampton. He will lie at > >Douglas Funeral Home in > >Amherst till then. -------------------------------------------------- Edward Byrne Department of English 322 Huegli Hall Valparaiso University Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/home/faculty/ebyrne/homepage/ Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu http://www.valpo.edu/english/vpr/ Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 Fax: (219) 464-5511 -------------------------------------------------- From X2deuce at aol.com Sun Dec 9 03:51:05 2001 From: X2deuce at aol.com (X2deuce at aol.com) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 03:51:05 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] comments on potery Message-ID: <172.775d09.29447ff9@aol.com> ""I applaud you for your bravery and for your desire to learn as much as possible."" I will interpret this e-mail comment from Bob C. as encuragment to me and my bravery. I know that i can be a poet because when I had always wanted to acomplish something important I always acomplished it, every time.You have to go after you're dreams. nothing can stop you. I think Bob C. is saying that I am going to go after my dream of a poet. The sky is a limit. And that he believes I can really do it. So i will sacrafice. This is his advice because he is one of the elete in poetry, after 7 years of doing it. He is telling me to follow my dreams where ever they go. Not to give up. Also not to feel inferior to everybody. Everybody is equal. I want to learn as evreything as possible. This list will be a big difference for me and my children. Each day i will teach them about new words with a dictionairy (as for me to). This is what Bob C is telling me to do. Thank you. Luv, Billie From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sun Dec 9 09:01:58 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2001 09:01:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Shahid. References: <20011208234326.000384@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> Message-ID: <002b01c180ba$11ccee80$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> This is cause for mourning, and for celebration of one who gave much. Tad Richards "A vicious mole of nature." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 4 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wendy Battin" To: Sent: Sunday, December 09, 2001 2:43 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Shahid. > Thanks for this terrible news. Shahid was a great gift. > > Wendy > > Chryss Yost wrote: > > >Agha Shahid Ali passed away in the early hours of the morning of > >December 8, 2001. > >He went peacefully. > >Burial will be on Monday December 10th in Northampton. He will lie at > >Douglas Funeral Home in > >Amherst till then. > > > >NYU will establish an annual reading in his name. > > > >They request that no flowers be sent. Instead, contributions may be made > >to > > > >VNA Hospice Alliance of Hampshire County > >7 Denniston Place > >Northampton MA 01060 > >Phone: 413 586 8288/800 235 3101 > > > >Please hold your calls. > >- - - > >For those of you who never met Shahid, he was a beautiful man and a > >gifted poet. His most recent book is _Rooms Are Never Finished_. He also > >edited _Ravishing Disunities: Real Ghazals in English_, released last > >year. > > > >NPR's "Weekend All Things Considered" did a wonderful interview with > >Shahid on July 28 of this year. Search for "Kashmiri Poet" on the NPR > >site, or use the long link below. > >http://search1.npr.org/search97cgi/s97_cgi?action=View&VdkVgwKey=%2Fopt% > 2Fcolle > >ctions%2Ftorched%2Fwatc%2Fdata%5Fwatc%2Fseg%5F126631%2Ehtm&DocOffset=2&D > ocsFoun > >d=7&QueryZip=shahid&Collection=zeus&Collection=C1&Collection=WEB&SortSpe > c=Date+ > >Desc+Score+Desc&ViewTemplate=docview%2Ehts&SearchUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch > 1%2Enpr > >%2Eorg%2Fsearch97cgi%2Fs97%5Fcgi%3Faction%3DFilterSearch%26QueryZip%3Dsh > ahid%26 > >Filter%3Dtopic%255Ffilter%252Ehts%26ResultTemplate%3Dsimple%255Fdate%252 > Ehts%26 > >QueryText%3Dshahid%26Collection%3Dzeus%26Collection%3DC1%26Collection%3D > WEB%26S > >ortSpec%3DDate%2BDesc%2BScore%2BDesc%26ViewTemplate%3Ddocview%252Ehts%26 > ResultS > >tart%3D1%26ResultCount%3D10& > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ----------------------------------------- > The night may be dark, > but the apples have been counted. > > Afghani proverb > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Mon Dec 10 11:03:14 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 10:03:14 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday Emily Dickinson Message-ID: <200112101603.fBAG38O94574@mx7.mx.voyager.net> Who goes to dine must take his feast Or find the banquet mean The table is not laid without Till it is laid within For pattern is the mind bestowed That imitating her Our most ignoble services Exhibit worthier --Emily Dickinson _______________________ David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu _______________________ From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Mon Dec 10 11:36:00 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 08:36:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday Emily Dickinson Message-ID: <20011210163600.F2FE236EE@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Mon Dec 10 15:51:34 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 14:51:34 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Word Query Message-ID: <200112102051.fBAKpUA74017@mx7.mx.voyager.net> Michael Harper's poem "The Loon" begins with these lines: The estate bird sits on the water outside my window; Does anyone recognize the phrase "estate bird"? My desktop references have struck out on this one. _______________________ David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu _______________________ From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Dec 10 15:55:55 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 15:55:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Word Query In-Reply-To: <200112102051.fBAKpUA74017@mx7.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: I don't know what one looks like, David, but here's how you feed one. http://www.birdsfly.com/residential/catalog/estate.html Hal "All revolutions have been betrayed By slush of feeling . . ." --Bill Berkson Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html > Michael Harper's poem "The Loon" begins with these lines: > > The estate bird > sits on the water > outside my window; > > Does anyone recognize the phrase "estate bird"? My desktop references have > struck out on this one. > _______________________ > David Graham > grahamd at mail.ripon.edu > _______________________ > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Mon Dec 10 16:09:27 2001 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 16:09:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Word Query In-Reply-To: <200112102051.fBAKpUA74017@mx7.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20011210160814.00a98170@postoffice.brown.edu> It may be a typo. The loon is the state bird of Minnesota. I think Harper lived there for several years. Maybe it's also a pun. Henry At 02:51 PM 12/10/01 -0600, you wrote: >Michael Harper's poem "The Loon" begins with these lines: > > The estate bird > sits on the water > outside my window; > >Does anyone recognize the phrase "estate bird"? My desktop references have >struck out on this one. >_______________________ >David Graham >grahamd at mail.ripon.edu >_______________________ >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ******************************************************** HG afloat: www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Dec 10 18:17:44 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 18:17:44 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Word Query Message-ID: <179.8836d7.29469c98@cs.com> In a message dated 12/10/2001 2:52:53 PM Central Standard Time, grahamd at mail.ripon.edu writes: > Michael Harper's poem "The Loon" begins with these lines: > > The estate bird > sits on the water > outside my window; > > Does anyone recognize the phrase "estate bird"? My desktop references have > struck out on this one. > _______________________ > This isn't another one of those awful Yaddo poems, is it? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From X2deuce at aol.com Mon Dec 10 18:33:41 2001 From: X2deuce at aol.com (X2deuce at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 18:33:41 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Word Query Message-ID: <139.5fce4b4.2946a055@aol.com> I think Michael H. is saying that he lives where ther are ducks. if you look at them it looks like they are in the water and sitting, not, swimming. Also a swan. The poem is too short you can't ID what kind of bird. I think he is saying that the duck is beautiful and that he wishes he could fly just like a sitting duck. Billie From MillB at aol.com Mon Dec 10 20:22:25 2001 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:22:25 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Word Query Message-ID: <141.61bb067.2946b9d1@aol.com> Wait. Awful Yaddo poems? I was there with Michael Harper and it was not, definitely not, awful. . . Mill From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Mon Dec 10 20:37:06 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 19:37:06 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Word Query Message-ID: <200112110136.fBB1a8077918@mx3.mx.voyager.net> I don't think "estate bird" is a typo, since it's repeated. (In case anyone's interested, I'll paste in the poem below.) Just curious to know if "estate bird" is some allusion I'm not catching--Harper's a fairly allusive poet. I find this whole poem a bit opaque. David Graham _________________________ The Loon The estate bird sits on the water outside my window; if you watch long enough you will see her dive from her canopy, and in the understory of the weather, in trees, beneath the surface, you might see another estate bird. In this scene the call goes out to the ground cover, where you can lay your face, unbroken by the ceremonial tears of the funeral, on ferns. Oh deciduous pouch of awful leaves at a would-be cemetery, listen to the loon. You could dream conifers, the deep roots of burrowing animals and insects, the opossum drunk on his tail hearing the interior voice of secret soil layer where we bury her. --Michael Harper _______________________ David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu _______________________ ---------- >From: Henry Gould >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Word Query >Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001, 3:09 PM > >It may be a typo. The loon is the state bird of Minnesota. I think Harper >lived there for several >years. Maybe it's also a pun. > >Henry From X2deuce at aol.com Mon Dec 10 21:05:44 2001 From: X2deuce at aol.com (X2deuce at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:05:44 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Word Query Message-ID: ""the opossum drunk on his tail hearing the interior voice of secret soil layer where we bury her "" The opossum is a cross-between a skunk and a rackoon. That animal is clear. Maybe he thinks the opssum is drunk. Then he could make a mistake about the name of the estake bird two times. Why is the opossm buried? Why is it a female? Is the duck female or masculine? The opossm is sitting on its tail. The estate duck could be female as the rackoon. It is a pretty poem. The poet does a convincing job of his emotions about the animals where he lives outside. Billie From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Dec 10 21:19:00 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:19:00 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Word Query Message-ID: <32.1f600af6.2946c714@cs.com> In a message dated 12/10/2001 7:23:45 PM Central Standard Time, MillB at aol.com writes: > Wait. > > Awful Yaddo poems? I was there with Michael Harper and it was not, > definitely not, awful. . . > > Mill > Not Yaddo, just the poems about it. Like Michael Ryan's. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Dec 10 21:23:53 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:23:53 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Word Query Message-ID: <7f.1eb445f1.2946c839@cs.com> In a message dated 12/10/2001 8:06:42 PM Central Standard Time, X2deuce at aol.com writes: > > ""the opossum > drunk on his tail > hearing the interior voice > of secret soil layer > where we bury her "" > > The opossum is a cross-between a skunk and a rackoon. That animal is > clear. > Maybe he thinks the opssum is drunk. Then he could make a mistake about > the > name of the estake bird two times. Why is the opossm buried? Why is it a > female? Is the duck female or masculine? The opossm is sitting on its > tail. > The estate duck could be female as the rackoon. It is a pretty poem. The > poet does a convincing job of his emotions about the animals where he lives > outside. > > Ladies and gentlemen, I suspect a hoax here. Finnegan, please inspect. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Mon Dec 10 21:29:38 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:29:38 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad Yadoo Poems? Message-ID: <200112110228.fBB2Sf784280@mx14.mx.voyager.net> Would that awful Yadoo poem perhaps be "A Burglary" by Michael Ryan? Opening lines: It was only of my studio at Yaddo, a twenty-by-twenty cabin in the woods whose walls are nearly all windows, and all they got was a typewriter and stereo (I say "they" though it may have been one burglar) and something ludicrously cheap, like a stapler, I didn't miss at first and now can't remember, though I remember my not being able to find the thing weeks later bringing the fact of the burglary back in a rush. If you want to play how-bad-is-it, you can surf on over to the Ploughshares site and take a look at all 281 lines: http://www.pshares.org/issues/article.cfm?prmarticleID=2616 Seems that "A Burglary" won an award, incidentally. . . . David Graham _______________________ David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu _______________________ ---------- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Word Query Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001, 8:19 PM In a message dated 12/10/2001 7:23:45 PM Central Standard Time, MillB at aol.com writes: Wait. Awful Yaddo poems? I was there with Michael Harper and it was not, definitely not, awful. . . Mill Not Yaddo, just the poems about it. Like Michael Ryan's. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Dec 10 21:37:00 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:37:00 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad Yadoo Poems? Message-ID: In a message dated 12/10/2001 8:31:02 PM Central Standard Time, grahamd at mail.ripon.edu writes: > > Would that awful Yadoo poem perhaps be "A Burglary" by Michael Ryan? > > That's the one, all right. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Dec 10 21:41:58 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:41:58 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad Yadoo Poems? Message-ID: <127.89e9b4c.2946cc76@cs.com> In a message dated 12/10/2001 8:31:02 PM Central Standard Time, grahamd at mail.ripon.edu writes: > http://www.pshares.org/issues/article.cfm?prmarticleID=2616 As bad as I remembered it. . . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmcvay at patriot.net Mon Dec 10 22:00:36 2001 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 22:00:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Word Query References: <7f.1eb445f1.2946c839@cs.com> Message-ID: <3C1576C2.3A4C760A@patriot.net> >>>Ladies and gentlemen, I suspect a hoax here. Finnegan, please inspect.<<< Just *now,* you're smelling something fishy? Do you yearn to fly like the sitting ducks we all are here? Senator, you're no Araki Yasusada. Gwyn From X2deuce at aol.com Mon Dec 10 21:44:57 2001 From: X2deuce at aol.com (X2deuce at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:44:57 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad Yadoo Poems? Message-ID: <114.90b12d9.2946cd29@aol.com> what is my mistake? i'm crying because i dont understand From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Dec 10 21:46:27 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:46:27 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Word Query Message-ID: In a message dated 12/10/2001 8:45:21 PM Central Standard Time, gmcvay at patriot.net writes: > Just *now,* you're smelling something fishy? Do you yearn to fly like > the sitting ducks we all are here? > > Senator, you're no Araki Yasusada. > > Gwyn > I plead exam week. Brain slow working. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Dec 10 21:51:19 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:51:19 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Word Query Message-ID: <137.5fdf856.2946cea7@cs.com> In a message dated 12/10/2001 8:45:21 PM Central Standard Time, gmcvay at patriot.net writes: > Senator, you're no Araki Yasusada. > So why does it have to be *me* who finally says something? Gwyn, you're no Gwynn. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From duemer at clarkson.edu Mon Dec 10 21:53:01 2001 From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:53:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad Yadoo Poems? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There?s also a hideous Charles Martin Yaddo poem, though I forget the title. Come to think of it, it might be a hideous MacDowell poem. jd ===================== Joseph Duemer School of Liberal Arts / 5750 Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699 duemer at clarkson.edu weblog: reading & writing -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Dec 10 21:55:02 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:55:02 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Word Query Message-ID: <31.1f321e5b.2946cf86@cs.com> http://wings.buffalo.edu/epc/authors/perloff/boston.html I'd forgotten about this story. Thanks, Gwyn. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Dec 10 21:56:50 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:56:50 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad Yadoo Poems? Message-ID: <140.61da7d9.2946cff2@cs.com> In a message dated 12/10/2001 8:54:31 PM Central Standard Time, duemer at clarkson.edu writes: > > There?s also a hideous Charles Martin Yaddo poem, though I forget the > title. Come to think of it, it might be a hideous MacDowell poem. > > > I think it's that West Coast place--Djerassi or something like that? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Mon Dec 10 22:00:42 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 21:00:42 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Bad Yadoo Poems? Message-ID: <200112110300.fBB30jh84420@mx5.mx.voyager.net> Hey, is anyone else thinking anthology here? Something like *Beat the Retreat: Overstuffed Poems from Writers' Colonies*. An updated *Stuffed Owl* for our academic age. . . . But here's the real challenge: can anyone think of truly excellent poems written about writers' colonies, conferences, and the like? And, if you can, can you then think of good ones that aren't satiric? David Graham _______________________ David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu _______________________ ---------- From: "Joseph Duemer" To: Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Bad Yadoo Poems? Date: Mon, Dec 10, 2001, 8:53 PM Theres also a hideous Charles Martin Yaddo poem, though I forget the title. Come to think of it, it might be a hideous MacDowell poem. jd ===================== Joseph Duemer School of Liberal Arts / 5750 Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699 duemer at clarkson.edu weblog: reading & writing -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From X2deuce at aol.com Mon Dec 10 22:04:43 2001 From: X2deuce at aol.com (X2deuce at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 22:04:43 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Bad Yadoo Poems? Message-ID: From X2deuce at aol.com Mon Dec 10 22:06:03 2001 From: X2deuce at aol.com (X2deuce at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 22:06:03 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Bad Yadoo Poems? Message-ID: <12a.8d6df7e.2946d21b@aol.com> From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Dec 10 22:06:54 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 22:06:54 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Bad Yadoo Poems? Message-ID: <6.20a183bc.2946d24e@cs.com> In a message dated 12/10/2001 9:01:37 PM Central Standard Time, grahamd at mail.ripon.edu writes: > But here's the real challenge: can anyone think of truly excellent poems > written about writers' colonies, conferences, and the like? > No, but there are wonderful anecdotes, like the one about the remarkably taciturn E. A. Robinson at MacDowell. Seems that a distraught young poet had thrown himself down in the middle of the driveway, waiting to be run over. The guests were all milling around, wringing their hands when Robinson appeared, smoking a cigar. "The ants will get him," he said. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Mon Dec 10 22:30:00 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 22:30:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad Yadoo Poems? References: Message-ID: <00d001c181f4$1d85dd00$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> There is, however, a very funny Yaddo novel, in Stephen Dobyns' "Saratoga" series. Tad Richards "A vicious mole of nature." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 4 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: Joseph Duemer To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 9:53 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Bad Yadoo Poems? There's also a hideous Charles Martin Yaddo poem, though I forget the title. Come to think of it, it might be a hideous MacDowell poem. jd ===================== Joseph Duemer School of Liberal Arts / 5750 Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699 duemer at clarkson.edu weblog: reading & writing -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From acgold01 at gwise.louisville.edu Mon Dec 10 22:54:12 2001 From: acgold01 at gwise.louisville.edu (Alan C. Golding) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 22:54:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Welcoming "Billie" Message-ID: Anyone else sharing Sam Gwynn's sense of smell might be interested in the overlaps between the text of our new friend Billie's opening posts and the following, from the Poetics List Alan Golding Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:56:40 -0500 From: Geoffrey Gatza Subject: Re: Walmart poetry I have been thinking of your comments on the academic poetry - I am not too sure poetry exists outside of the academy. Most of the people who run the programs around here have some air of authority as they have been trained in it. Even a high school teacher who wrote dreadful muck held her head up high as being in the know. Society doesn't really need poems. I went to the walmart yesterday and every person there wouldn't look at a poem as anything other than something to worship and not enjoy. The Golden book of 100 poem treasuries were on sale in the bargain book bin. This was a crowd of america, the ones who Pound fled to Europe to escape. These people are who we write for, are they not? This is all of us, only they look natural in checkered flannel and grizzly beards. Everyone who I ran across was very nice and in a holiday cheer. The people who are moved by poems seem to drift towards the university as it is by law that they teach literature. Not like basket weaving which is a free elective. The state requires us to be exposed to poems So the ranking within schools programs which the stage for the celebrity of Bernstein, Perloff and Sillyman. Not a bad place to be as they have done exceptional work which can be recognized. But this only fuels the flames as each person knows what a poem is and that gap of common understanding is a big problem. We expect current poets to know something about the art and the theory as to why it works. This deals with your light hearted holing up on the writing list - its free flowing because we each see the poem as something different and find our own ends with it. We all have read "our" poet heroes and come from it acting in a know. Most are in a university program so to find some way to keep the flame of desire burning while doing something that has social value. Unfortunately its not pop music. No one expects Brittany Spears to know why her rhythms works on to the audience it does or the social implications of her body movements. Etc. But since it is alive and in the public eye most accept it or not and can explain why - which is done at walmart. what would happen to poetry if the universities gave it up? I am hopeful that the people would stand up and organize; but they would more likely contribute to a museum to tame it or maybe a even a black coffin. Best, Geoffrey Geoffrey Gatza editor BlazeVOX2k1 http://vorplesword.com/ From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Dec 10 23:31:03 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 23:31:03 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Welcoming "Billie" Message-ID: <111.9e3ab43.2946e607@cs.com> In a message dated 12/10/2001 9:55:26 PM Central Standard Time, acgold01 at gwise.louisville.edu writes: > Anyone else sharing Sam Gwynn's sense of smell might be interested in the > overlaps between the text of our new friend Billie's opening posts and the > following, from the Poetics List > > Alan Golding > I salute you, Mr. Holmes. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spacks at snowcrest.net Mon Dec 10 23:40:19 2001 From: spacks at snowcrest.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 20:40:19 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Word Query In-Reply-To: <3C1576C2.3A4C760A@patriot.net> References: <7f.1eb445f1.2946c839@cs.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011210204019.007cdc70@snowcrest.net> At 10:00 PM 12/10/01 -0500, Gwyn wrote: > >Just *now,* you're smelling something fishy? Do you yearn to fly like >the sitting ducks we all are here? > >Senator, you're no Araki Yasusada. > >Gwyn >_______________________________________________ > I tucked away the first 3 hoax posts as a found-poem-sequence (useful for teaching "voice") -- sad to see the borrowings, but as to voice the adaptations set the gold-standard B. (I also see a nice Stein-ian exercise in the patient explanations: 'This poem about a pterodactyl is trying to say that's not a bird albeit could fly, which did not happen recently' -- flavorsome voice, so seductive!) From cstroffo at earthlink.net Tue Dec 11 04:20:15 2001 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 01:20:15 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Welcoming "Billie"man References: Message-ID: <3C15CFCF.9C027E8D@earthlink.net> Well, Billie, do not be discouraged. That's what I'm saying. Do not be discouraged by the golding. By the local. Habitation and a name. It is all a sitting duck. Or is it bull. A last name. Word. A last word. That's what I say. They're trying to say you're not you, but I know you are. Yurs, De Campos "Alan C. Golding" wrote: > Anyone else sharing Sam Gwynn's sense of smell might be interested in the overlaps between the text of our new friend Billie's opening posts and the following, from the Poetics List > > Alan Golding > > Date: Fri, 7 Dec 2001 16:56:40 -0500 > From: Geoffrey Gatza > Subject: Re: Walmart poetry > > I have been thinking of your comments on the academic poetry - I am not too > sure poetry exists outside of the academy. Most of the people who run the > programs around here have some air of authority as they have been trained in > it. Even a high school teacher who wrote dreadful muck held her head up high > as being in the know. Society doesn't really need poems. I went to the > walmart yesterday and every person there wouldn't look at a poem as anything > other than something to worship and not enjoy. The Golden book of 100 poem > treasuries were on sale in the bargain book bin. This was a crowd of > america, the ones who Pound fled to Europe to escape. These people are who > we write for, are they not? This is all of us, only they look natural in > checkered flannel and grizzly beards. Everyone who I ran across was very > nice and in a holiday cheer. The people who are moved by poems seem to drift > towards the university as it is by law that they teach literature. Not like > basket weaving which is a free elective. The state requires us to be exposed > to poems So the ranking within schools programs which the stage for the > celebrity of Bernstein, Perloff and Sillyman. Not a bad place to be as they > have done exceptional work which can be recognized. But this only fuels the > flames as each person knows what a poem is and that gap of common > understanding is a big problem. We expect current poets to know something > about the art and the theory as to why it works. This deals with your light > hearted holing up on the writing list - its free flowing because we each see > the poem as something different and find our own ends with it. We all have > read "our" poet heroes and come from it acting in a know. Most are in a > university program so to find some way to keep the flame of desire burning > while doing something that has social value. Unfortunately its not pop > music. No one expects Brittany Spears to know why her rhythms works on to > the audience it does or the social implications of her body movements. Etc. > But since it is alive and in the public eye most accept it or not and can > explain why - which is done at walmart. > what would happen to poetry if the universities gave it up? I am hopeful > that the people would stand up and organize; but they would more likely > contribute to a museum to tame it or maybe a even a black coffin. > > Best, Geoffrey > > Geoffrey Gatza > editor BlazeVOX2k1 > http://vorplesword.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From X2deuce at aol.com Tue Dec 11 07:52:28 2001 From: X2deuce at aol.com (X2deuce at aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 07:52:28 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Welcoming "Billie" Message-ID: <24.1dd30a2d.29475b8c@aol.com> Cris explains me. She is saying not to be somebody else who you cant be, be yourself. Do not copy somebodys opinions. But I forgive you. I agree with this because somebody wil find out. When you grow old you will not be sorry that you had began to learn the right and the wrong ways to behave about writing. Golding did a checkup on me. Then Sam complemented him. Thanks you Cris for helping me with my life, cleaning the mess in it. Gynn Mcvay had said she always knew of this. My opinion of Golding is like a teacher who is nasty but has a kind heart underneth it. From katenexile at yahoo.com Tue Dec 11 09:20:35 2001 From: katenexile at yahoo.com (kate thorn) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 06:20:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Welcoming "Billie" In-Reply-To: <24.1dd30a2d.29475b8c@aol.com> Message-ID: <20011211142035.81800.qmail@web12201.mail.yahoo.com> To the cafe-bluers--does billie remind you of someone in our collective cyber past?? ===== PassionForPoetry at yahoogroups.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PassionForPoetry __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From gmcvay at patriot.net Tue Dec 11 09:23:41 2001 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:23:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad Yadoo Poems? In-Reply-To: <127.89e9b4c.2946cc76@cs.com> Message-ID: And this piece of writing by Ryan is lineated... why? Gwyn From gmcvay at patriot.net Tue Dec 11 09:29:57 2001 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:29:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Welcoming "Billie" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>>This is all of us, only they look natural in checkered flannel and grizzly beards.<<< When this message by Gatza originally appeared on the other list, it didn't occur to me to realize that *I* might not look terribly natural in a beard, grizzly or otherwise. Gwyn of a different gender than Gwynn From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Tue Dec 11 10:27:03 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 07:27:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Word Query Message-ID: <20011211152703.65C9136F9@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Tue Dec 11 10:47:53 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 07:47:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Welcoming "Billie" Message-ID: <20011211154753.EC334274E@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU Tue Dec 11 11:23:03 2001 From: GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 10:23:03 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad Yadoo Poems? Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86C92@mail.ripon.edu> It's not a Yadoo poem, but how about William Matthews's "On the Porch at the Frost Place" as an example of one of the rare good poems written about writers' retreats or conferences? (By the same token, I suppose I would put forward the Frost Festival itself as a bright spot in the world of poetry conferences.) Of course, Matthews's poem isn't really *about* the conference per se, which is probably significant. Anyway, here's a link to it: http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/poetry/antholog/matthews/porch.htm David Graham =================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu =================== > ---------- > From: David Graham > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 9:00 PM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Bad Yadoo Poems? > > Hey, is anyone else thinking anthology here? Something like *Beat the > Retreat: Overstuffed Poems from Writers' Colonies*. An updated *Stuffed > Owl* for our academic age. . . . > > But here's the real challenge: can anyone think of truly excellent poems > written about writers' colonies, conferences, and the like? > > And, if you can, can you then think of good ones that aren't satiric? > > David Graham > From wasanthony at yahoo.com Tue Dec 11 11:37:34 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 08:37:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad Yadoo Poems? In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD7599E86C92@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <20011211163734.7391.qmail@web12104.mail.yahoo.com> Yes, better by far than the Yadoo-conscious poems and, as you say, better because it's not about Frost Place as a literary notch on one's belt. Still, don't you trip at this point: . . . And no wonder he chose a climate whose winter and house whose isolation could be stern enough . . . Have to confess this sub-sub-genre of poems from/of/about retreats and conferences is new to me, though I'm not surprised at their existence. Sort of like the poets were trying to stare through the lint in their navels. - Jim --- "Graham, David" wrote: > It's not a Yadoo poem, but how about William Matthews's "On the Porch > at the > Frost Place" as an example of one of the rare good poems written > about > writers' retreats or conferences? (By the same token, I suppose I > would put > forward the Frost Festival itself as a bright spot in the world of > poetry > conferences.) Of course, Matthews's poem isn't really *about* the > conference per se, which is probably significant. Anyway, here's a > link to > it: > > http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/poetry/antholog/matthews/porch.htm > > David Graham > > =================== > David Graham > grahamd at mail.ripon.edu > =================== > > > ---------- > > From: David Graham > > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Sent: Monday, December 10, 2001 9:00 PM > > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Bad Yadoo Poems? > > > > Hey, is anyone else thinking anthology here? Something like *Beat > the > > Retreat: Overstuffed Poems from Writers' Colonies*. An updated > *Stuffed > > Owl* for our academic age. . . . > > > > But here's the real challenge: can anyone think of truly excellent > poems > > written about writers' colonies, conferences, and the like? > > > > And, if you can, can you then think of good ones that aren't > satiric? > > > > David Graham > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From X2deuce at aol.com Tue Dec 11 14:35:41 2001 From: X2deuce at aol.com (X2deuce at aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:35:41 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Robert Bly Message-ID: <133.60560d1.2947ba0d@aol.com> This is a poem nicknamed In The Time Of Peony Bloosoming. When i come up near the red peony flower i tremble as water does near thunder as a well did when the plates of earth move or a tree when fifty birds leave at one. The red peonny said that we have been given the gift, and it is not the gift of this world behind the leaves of the peonny there is a world stiller, and darker, that fed most. In the first it describes a talking flower. Next there was a thunder storm and an earthquake together by a huge coinsidince. It scared the birds. A lot of plates broke down. Plus the man is scared. In my mind I can picture a giant disaster. Maybe a lot of people were dead in a forest fire nearto a city. But the man has a gift. He is too special to die in a catastarophe. The talking flower saves him. It has powers out of this world. Third maybe it is a Christian poem telling us to be better the most than we can. From gmcvay at patriot.net Tue Dec 11 14:43:11 2001 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 14:43:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Robert Bly In-Reply-To: <133.60560d1.2947ba0d@aol.com> Message-ID: >>>The talking flower saves him. It has powers out of this world. Third maybe it is a Christian poem telling us to be better the most than we can. Dear Billie, Do you think there might be a connection between the talking flower and the burning bush that spoke to Methuselah? Yours, Gwyn From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Dec 11 15:24:35 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:24:35 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Robert Bly Message-ID: <12f.919c101.2947c583@cs.com> In a message dated 12/11/2001 1:37:34 PM Central Standard Time, X2deuce at aol.com writes: > When i come up near the red peony flower > i tremble as water does near thunder > as a well did when the plates of earth move > or a tree when fifty birds leave at one. > I believe the peony is him, Bligh, who trembles like the water. The plates may have been in the water, soaking. Or maybe children were making mudpies and the plates had water and earth in them. Why do all fifty of the birds leave at one? Why not at noon when everybody else does? Were there birds left behind? How many? It must have been a not so very large tree, too. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From X2deuce at aol.com Tue Dec 11 15:56:28 2001 From: X2deuce at aol.com (X2deuce at aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:56:28 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Robert Bly Message-ID: <140.6214e5f.2947ccfc@aol.com> ""Why do all fifty of the birds leave at one? Were there birds left behind? How many? According to any dictonairy, the peony is a genius (Paeonia) of plants with the crowfoot family wiyh large flowers of red whie and pinkish-colored flowers. Robert Bly picked a good flower. This i sthe poets job to think about his charachters in his poem. He should have done a better job anyway with the birds that are undescribed realistically. In my opinion there were exactly 50 birds to balance out the poem. The man was counting them BEFORE the disasater attacked the world or else he would not have enough time to talk to the flower. Billie From gmcvay at patriot.net Tue Dec 11 15:56:50 2001 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:56:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Robert Bly In-Reply-To: <12f.919c101.2947c583@cs.com> Message-ID: >>>as a well did when the plates of earth move<<< Dear Sam, I don't know much about mudpies, but on reflection, I think this is actually a dirty poem. As you know, F. Scott Fitzgerald, famous he-man, macho novelist of the Lost Generation, had one character tell the other that "the earth moved" after they had just finished having s*x. Not inside of wedlock either, I believe. I wish he had been more like Ernest Hemmmingway, who wrote about the magician "The Great Gatsby." Anyway, could we please study a cleaner poem? Fondly, Gwyn From wasanthony at yahoo.com Tue Dec 11 16:16:00 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 13:16:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Robert Bly In-Reply-To: <12f.919c101.2947c583@cs.com> Message-ID: <20011211211600.66189.qmail@web12103.mail.yahoo.com> --- Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/11/2001 1:37:34 PM Central Standard Time, > X2deuce at aol.com writes: > > > > When i come up near the red peony flower > > i tremble as water does near thunder > > as a well did when the plates of earth move > > or a tree when fifty birds leave at one. > > > > I believe the peony is him, Bligh, who trembles like the water. The > plates > may have been in the water, soaking. Or maybe children were making > mudpies > and the plates had water and earth in them. Why do all fifty of the > birds > leave at one? Why not at noon when everybody else does? Hah. There's a subtle, underlying connection. The plates of the earth SHIFT, just as the birds (or is it "bards"?!) work on a different SHIFT, which is why they leave at noon and not one. Besides, they don't get over-time. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Dec 11 16:21:26 2001 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 16:21:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Word Query References: <20011211152703.65C9136F9@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <001801c18289$cb434b40$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> > Regarding "Billie," "Hoaxes,"etc., I took her bait, hook, line, and sinker, and even went out on a limb > to encourage her not to feel "stupid," or "inferior." It's no wonder that I seem to be on every scam artist's > sucker list! Maybe it's a Bob problem. I, too, took her at face value. But I wasn't sympathetic because I've run into people who really do think like her--submitters to my press. I tried to help them and all it got me, finally, was scorn for my inability to appreciate their work (because I suggested ways to improve it). --Bob G. From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Dec 11 18:06:57 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:06:57 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Robert Bly Message-ID: In a message dated 12/11/2001 2:58:23 PM Central Standard Time, gmcvay at patriot.net writes: > Anyway, > could we please study a cleaner poem? > Nemerov's "The Vacuum" is one of my favorites. Or was it written by Carole King? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Tue Dec 11 18:39:53 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 18:39:53 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re:Word Query Message-ID: <59.148a0443.2947f349@aol.com> In a message dated 12/10/01 8:38:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, grahamd at mail.ripon.edu writes: > I don't think "estate bird" is a typo, since it's repeated. (In case > anyone's interested, I'll paste in the poem below.) Just curious to know if > "estate bird" is some allusion I'm not catching--Harper's a fairly allusive > poet. I find this whole poem a bit opaque. David, apologies if this has been mentioned already, but it would think that "estate bird" might be simply fauna purchased for the estate by its owners, kept and maintained on the premises, the way ornamental flora would be planted & tended by the estate's groundskeepers... in other words, the property owners might fill their pond with waterfowl and koi for their viewing pleasure, perhaps even have a few deer released onto the property to roam about, etc. FInnegan From JforJames at aol.com Tue Dec 11 19:59:41 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 19:59:41 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Announcing Jacket 15 Message-ID: <62.179e1887.294805fd@aol.com> Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 15:38:50 +1100 From: John Tranter Subject: = Announcing Jacket 15 = Announcing: Jacket # 15 -- December 2001 -- a cultural stocking stuffed with rich and various literary presents: http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/jacket15/index.html Featuring a special tribute to New York poet Kenneth Koch -- 23 items from over twenty writers, including an audio recording of "Popeye and William Blake Fight to the Death" a hilarious public rhyming contest between Koch and Allen Ginsberg at St Mark's Poetry Project, New York City, 9 May 1979, ... and tributes to Kenneth Koch from Bill Berkson, Tom Clark, Robert Creeley, Barbara Guest, Paul Hoover, Vincent Katz, Jack Kimball and Kent Johnson, John Kinsella, David Lehman, Harry Mathews, Nicole Mauro, Charles North, Hilton Obenzinger, Ron Padgett, Tom Raworth, Hazel Smith, Tony Towle, David Shapiro, John Tranter and Anne Waldman. and "Words to Comfort" -- A selection of poems and photographs from the benefit readings to support the World Trade Center Relief Fund on Wednesday October 17, 2001. Many of the poems being read were selected from the enormous public outpouring of poetry after the terrorist attack, posted at New York City fire stations, Union Square, and numerous other memorial sites around the city. PLUS more glittering baubles on the tree of art: Reviews: ...by Douglas Barbour, Andrea Brady, Pam Brown, Richard Caddel, Tom Clark, Alan Gilbert, Gabriel Gudding, Kris Hemensley, Kim Hjelmgaard, Mark Neely, Patrick Pritchett, Dale Smith and Chris Tysh. Articles ...by Keston Sutherland, Craig Dworkin and Michel Delville. Feature: Ian Hamilton Finlay =97 the contemporary Spartan philosopher, gardener, poet and artist interviewed by Nagy Rashwan, with articles by Brian Kim Stefans, Drew Milne and Mark Scroggins. Poems by Homero Aridjis, Aaron Belz, Peter Boyle, Chris Edwards, John Hawke, J.Nicole Hoelle, S.K. Kelen, John Kinsella, Helen Lambert, David Lehman, Cassie Lewis, Geraldine McKenzie, Mark Mahemoff, Ange Mlinko, Chri Tysh, Ethan Paquin, C.D. Wright, and Yang Lian Interviews: Steven Clay of Granary Books interviewed by Olivier Brossard, Alice Notley interviewed by Brian Kim Stefans, Dale Smith interviewed by Kent Johnson, C.D. Wright interviewed by Kent Johnson with Deborah Luster's remarkable photographs of inmates from Louisana prisons and C.D. Wright: excerpt from her poem sequence Deepstep Come Shining And remember: the previous fourteen issues of the magazine are always available too. ... if you'd like to be taken off this mailing list, please just ask. John Tranter, Editor, Jacket magazine From X2deuce at aol.com Tue Dec 11 21:03:31 2001 From: X2deuce at aol.com (X2deuce at aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 21:03:31 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] estate bird Message-ID: <118.93e1635.294814f3@aol.com> "estate bird" might be simply fauna purchased for the estate by its owners, kept and maintained on the premises, the way ornamental flora would be planted & tended by the estate's groundskeepers... in other words, the property owners might fill their pond with waterfowl and koi for their viewing pleasure" Maybe they want to shoot them too. That's how come they buried the opssum. Did the hero of the poem try to kill the estake bird from the property owners? From duemer at clarkson.edu Tue Dec 11 21:39:07 2001 From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 21:39:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] estate bird In-Reply-To: <118.93e1635.294814f3@aol.com> Message-ID: <> The estake bird clearly represents the moral _mistake_ made by the owners-obviously not the poet, who is an heroic figure-in thinking they could dominate nature by owning a waterfoul, as any John Greenleaf Whistlir could tell you if you were listening but your not. jd ===================== Joseph Duemer School of Liberal Arts / 5750 Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699 duemer at clarkson.edu weblog: reading & writing From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Dec 11 22:28:58 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 22:28:58 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] estate bird Message-ID: In a message dated 12/11/2001 8:40:37 PM Central Standard Time, duemer at clarkson.edu writes: > < owners?>> > > The estake bird clearly represents the moral _mistake_ made by the > owners-obviously not the poet, who is an heroic figure-in thinking they > could dominate nature by owning a waterfoul, as any John Greenleaf Whistlir > could tell you if you were listening but your not. > > I think Joe is saying that he'd rather eat estake any day then a water foul. So would I. Even William Jennings Bryant was not a veterinarian but ate meet. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Tue Dec 11 23:09:36 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 23:09:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Robert Bly References: <12f.919c101.2947c583@cs.com> Message-ID: <00a301c182c2$d01e5680$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Bligh? Christian? I think I'm starting to understand this poem. No wonder he trembled when he got near water. Tad Richards "A vicious mole of nature." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 4 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, December 11, 2001 3:24 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Robert Bly In a message dated 12/11/2001 1:37:34 PM Central Standard Time, X2deuce at aol.com writes: When i come up near the red peony flower i tremble as water does near thunder as a well did when the plates of earth move or a tree when fifty birds leave at one. I believe the peony is him, Bligh, who trembles like the water. The plates may have been in the water, soaking. Or maybe children were making mudpies and the plates had water and earth in them. Why do all fifty of the birds leave at one? Why not at noon when everybody else does? Were there birds left behind? How many? It must have been a not so very large tree, too. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From X2deuce at aol.com Wed Dec 12 05:59:52 2001 From: X2deuce at aol.com (X2deuce at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 05:59:52 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] estate bird Message-ID: <174.a161aa.294892a8@aol.com> In a message dated 12/11/01 9:40:37 PM, duemer at clarkson.edu writes: << The estake bird clearly represents the moral _mistake_ made by the owners-obviously not the poet, who is an heroic figure-in thinking they could dominate nature by owning a waterfoul as any John Greenleaf Whistlir could tell you if you were listening but your not.>> Owning an animal is the biggest responsibilty. You have to walk it and feed it too early every morning. maybe the property owners didnt have enough money to feed enough of the estake ducks. they felt dominated by the ducks, like me and my children. My childrin are very dominant around the house and leave messes, they act like animals. This is what the Michael the poet is saying to me, DONT make a moral mistake and also listen to othrs. I agree with it and Joe D. A poem can mean what you don't expect it to be. It can be anything. That is what makes everybody special. They are all different acording to Michael. Billie. PS thanks to everybody on this list, I love you, even the grouchy ones are just hiding up how beutiful theyre inside can be improved. From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Wed Dec 12 10:01:47 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 07:01:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Robert Bly Message-ID: <20011212150148.048ED2757@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Dec 12 10:10:39 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:10:39 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Robert Bly Message-ID: <86.1424541c.2948cd6f@cs.com> In a message dated 12/12/2001 9:02:53 AM Central Standard Time, CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com writes: > Sam, > > I think it should read, "as one." > > Bob > > Oh. Never mind. R S Roseannadanna -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From TerryP17 at aol.com Wed Dec 12 10:13:40 2001 From: TerryP17 at aol.com (TerryP17 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:13:40 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Robert Bly Message-ID: I am beginning to understand now. Bligh is trembling because he fears certain Fletcher Christians and the rolling expanse of the sea underneath which there are many broken plates. This is quite subtle. --Terry Ponick From duemer at clarkson.edu Wed Dec 12 11:04:40 2001 From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 11:04:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Robert Bly References: Message-ID: <001401c18326$b5084ae0$3d1b9980@snell.clarkson.edu> Just remember, the mistake bird plays no favorites. jd ====================== Joseph Duemer School of Liberal Arts, 5750 Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699 315.268.3967 website http://web.northnet.org/duemer journal http://rw/blogspot.com ====================== From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Wed Dec 12 11:49:44 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:49:44 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of Message-ID: <200112121648.fBCGmk464273@mx10.mx.voyager.net> It's time for my annual request for favorite books you've read recently. The poetry biz being what it is, I don't always discover good new collections the same year they're published, so. . . . What are the best recent books you've read in 2001 (not necessarily published this year)? I'll start. Lately I've been really enjoying Frank X. Gaspar's 1999 collection, *A Field Guide to the Heavens* (U Wisconsin), which Gray Jacobik mentioned in a lecture I heard, and which I then took a deeper look at. Here's a blurb from the jacket: "*A Field Guide to the Heavens* is punctuated with the designs of science, the wondering and rapt observations of the sky made at the eyepiece of a backyard telescope. In this collection, the mystical and the mundane are threaded together to bring us more than a guide to the heavens; Gaspar offers a guide to human experience. In poems that may juxtapose the presence of Mohammed, Buddha, Augustine, George Herbert, Emily Dickinson, or Blake with a family selling their belongings from an old pickup truck or June bugs beating at the poet's late-night windows, the magnitude of the fleeting human moment is weighed against themes as enduring as the stars." At Amazon you can look at a couple sample poems: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0299165248/qid=1008175511/sr=12-1/102 -3717482-4153705 David Graham _______________________ David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu _______________________ From snospx at silcom.com Wed Dec 12 12:04:10 2001 From: snospx at silcom.com (Barry Spacks) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 09:04:10 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Billie-Speak In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011212090410.007d83d0@snowcrest.net> At 10:13 AM 12/12/01 EST, Terry Ponick wrote: >I am beginning to understand now. Bligh is trembling because he fears certain Fletcher Christians and the rolling expanse of the sea underneath which there are many broken plates. This is quite subtle. > >--Terry Ponick I think Terry Ponick is saying fetch Christians which I did anyweigh. this is to encourage me when the plates broke B. From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Dec 12 12:49:01 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:49:01 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of Message-ID: <51.15c77ec4.2948f28d@cs.com> Morri Creech's Paper Cathedrals is a good first book. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmcvay at patriot.net Wed Dec 12 13:14:45 2001 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:14:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of In-Reply-To: <51.15c77ec4.2948f28d@cs.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Dec 2001 Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > Morri Creech's Paper Cathedrals is a good first book. > Yes, but who wants to be named "Morri Creech"? I guess it beats "Uriah Heep," unless you're a heavy-metal/garage band. Ebenezer Scrooge From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Dec 12 13:23:10 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:23:10 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of Message-ID: <59.14990584.2948fa8e@cs.com> In a message dated 12/12/01 12:15:44 PM Central Standard Time, gmcvay at patriot.net writes: > > On Wed, 12 Dec 2001 Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > > > Morri Creech's Paper Cathedrals is a good first book. > > > Yes, but who wants to be named "Morri Creech"? I guess it beats "Uriah > Heep," unless you're a heavy-metal/garage band. > > Ebenezer Scrooge > > Alas, what little control we have over the monikers we're saddled with, Gwyn-who-lacks-a-final-n. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From michael.ritchie at mail.atu.edu Wed Dec 12 15:12:07 2001 From: michael.ritchie at mail.atu.edu (Michael Karl Ritchie) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 14:12:07 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Best Of Message-ID: 12 December Wednesday LIsts! What I most love are lists! My favorite book this year has been Russell Edson's "The Tormented Mirror." My least favorite has been Billy Collins' Collected, especially for the newer poems, which I find boring, even though I still like the earlier work. Mostly I've been reading fiction: Donald Antrim's "The Verificationist," J. G. Ballard's "Super Cannes," J.T.LeRoy's "The Heart is Deceitful Above All Things," Chuck Palaniuk's "Choke." Dr. Mike From jpl3 at lehigh.edu Wed Dec 12 15:44:32 2001 From: jpl3 at lehigh.edu (Joe Lucia) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 15:44:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Best Of References: Message-ID: <3C17C1B0.8CE2A877@lehigh.edu> Though it came out in 2000, Michael O'Brien's _Sills: selected poems_ (Cambridge, Zoland Books) has provided me with enormous pleasure and stimulation over the past several months. His work is the find of the year for me. And I owe that to a mention of him by Jordan Davis on this list. Neo-formalists out there probably won't like this one, I'll admit that. But if your tastes run to an eclectic, disjunctive lyricism that is never discursive but always somehow tender, gritty, and unflinching, full of urban intensities and ragged music, then this stuff might be for you. I think that Jordan asserted that O'Brien is somewhat like a Jack Gilbert without the pretense and self-inflation. That strikes me as about right. Here's the opening poem from the book. It's a little more linear and accessibly ordered than some of his more adventurous work: The Falls Nerves, those fine pianos, plaintive as the applause of palms; under the rain the green goes dark, muted, difficult as desire. The nights are white pages, the feelings accidental. In the dream the river runs over stone to the falls where a girl lies on her side under the moving water which descends the stair to the pool below, whose floor you touch before you let the water bear you back to air. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: jpl3.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 342 bytes Desc: Card for Joe Lucia URL: From aburack at mail.slc.edu Wed Dec 12 19:03:17 2001 From: aburack at mail.slc.edu (Alexandra Burack) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 19:03:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of References: <200112121648.fBCGmk464273@mx10.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <003b01c18369$91d8e500$930653c6@bzln101> From tadrichards at prodigy.net Wed Dec 12 19:50:41 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 19:50:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of References: <59.14990584.2948fa8e@cs.com> Message-ID: <007401c18370$4b8b9820$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> The way I look at it, everyone named Morri Creech means one less person named Gwyn(n). Tad Richards "A vicious mole of nature." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 4 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 1:23 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Best of In a message dated 12/12/01 12:15:44 PM Central Standard Time, gmcvay at patriot.net writes: On Wed, 12 Dec 2001 Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > Morri Creech's Paper Cathedrals is a good first book. > Yes, but who wants to be named "Morri Creech"? I guess it beats "Uriah Heep," unless you're a heavy-metal/garage band. Ebenezer Scrooge Alas, what little control we have over the monikers we're saddled with, Gwyn-who-lacks-a-final-n. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From X2deuce at aol.com Wed Dec 12 20:31:11 2001 From: X2deuce at aol.com (X2deuce at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 20:31:11 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of Message-ID: <126.8c2e0d4.29495edf@aol.com> A good volume for all the gals is Doan't Step on my Rainbow. (My advice, the men will be too bored to tears by the lovey-parts of the best poems in the wide world.) ""Everytimr I give him one of those baseball hats he likeshe says i shouldn't have spent all that money for him. he doesnt need it. that i spent too much on him. that he doesn't need a hat. He doesn't need. Also I sent my own poemes to Peotry magazine six days ago and havent heard anything from these poems as of today. I think their lost. As a result should I re-submit the hundred-some pomes for re-review? They are the ones that show me I have a lot of promise, to me Luv Billie From wasanthony at yahoo.com Wed Dec 12 20:38:55 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 17:38:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of In-Reply-To: <126.8c2e0d4.29495edf@aol.com> Message-ID: <20011213013855.31418.qmail@web12103.mail.yahoo.com> Hardy-har-har (snort). Billie, you really do take the cake. Keep 'em comin, sweetheart. - Jim p.s. - Try Merican Poetree Revoo next --- X2deuce at aol.com wrote: > A good volume for all the gals is Doan't Step on my Rainbow. (My > advice, the > men will be too bored to tears by the lovey-parts of the best poems > in the > wide world.) > > ""Everytimr I give him > one of those baseball hats > he likeshe says > i shouldn't have spent all that money > for him. he doesnt need it. > that i spent too much on him. > that he doesn't need a hat. > He doesn't need. > > Also I sent my own poemes to Peotry magazine six days ago and havent > heard > anything from these poems as of today. I think their lost. As a > result > should I re-submit the hundred-some pomes for re-review? They are > the ones > that show me I have a lot of promise, to me > > Luv Billie > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Dec 12 21:34:48 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 21:34:48 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of Message-ID: In a message dated 12/12/2001 6:56:12 PM Central Standard Time, tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: > The way I look at it, everyone named Morri Creech means one less person > named Gwyn(n). > That was uncalled for, Keith. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From katenexile at yahoo.com Wed Dec 12 23:10:22 2001 From: katenexile at yahoo.com (kate thorn) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 20:10:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Best Of In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011213041022.67185.qmail@web12203.mail.yahoo.com> My favorite book of the year is The Collected Poems of May Sarton--1930-1993. Her works sings.---kate ===== PassionForPoetry at yahoogroups.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PassionForPoetry __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From mbales at oh.verio.com Wed Dec 12 06:56:20 2001 From: mbales at oh.verio.com (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 06:56:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Google back 20 years In-Reply-To: <174.a161aa.294892a8@aol.com> Message-ID: <3C16FF94.24832.7323595@localhost> Check this out. Really: it's amazing. http://www.google.com/googlegroups/archive_announce_20.html Marcus Bales http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From rlong at jcws.net Thu Dec 13 18:00:10 2001 From: rlong at jcws.net (Richard Long) Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 17:00:10 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Issue of 2RV Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20011213165850.01bc9e98@pop3.slu.edu> The season has changed at 2River. Thus a winter issue of The 2River View, this one with new poems by Thomas Bates, Roger Jones, Leigh Kirkland, Robert Hill Long, Frances Ruhlen McConnel, Michael Meyerhofer, Ann Politte, Logan Ryan Smith, T. L. Stokes, Kelly White, and Ian Randall Wilson, and text/image collaborations by Clark Lunberry and David Reisman. You can read it by going to http://www.2River.org where you'll see the link to the winter issue. Since 1996, 2River has been a site of poetry, art, and theory, quarterly publishing The 2River View and occasionally publishing individual authors in the 2River Chapbook Series. Have a good end of the year holiday. Richard Long -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Fri Dec 14 12:21:01 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 12:21:01 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] The Disparities and My Life Message-ID: <122.9186e42.294b8efd@aol.com> Date: 12/14/01 11:31:52 AM Eastern Standard Time From: djmess at greeninteger.com (Douglas Messerli) To: djmess at greeninteger.com (Douglas Messerli) Green Integer (in collaboration with O Books) is proud to announce the publication of The Disparities by Rodrigo Toscano. The book is available to individuals on this list for a 20% discount. The book retails for $9.95, which means that with $1.50 postage, you should mail a check to Green Integer (6026 Wilshire Boulevard, Los Angeles, California 90036) for $9.46. In The Disparities, Rodrigo Toscano's first full-length collection of poetry, the author explores "how things wouldn't happen." The Disparities brings together official and unofficial histories that vie with one another to expose new meanings created between "the gaps." Time, in this highly original work of poetry, is "unwound," revealing new significance for the things of the world, "not apples and oranges / but fruits / off the same carved-up tree." Rodrigo lives and works in Brooklyn, New York. _________________ Let me also take this opportunity to announce to the poetic community that we are reprinting My Life by Lyn Hejinian in the Green Integer series. This will be the fifth reprinting of the book, a book which we care very much about, and which have been instrumental in keeping in print and available. Although we have a few copies of the Sun & Moon edition available, the book (for all practical purposes) is out of stock. But the new edition, reset and corrected, is now at the printers, and should be available by the first week of February 2002. I feel a bit frustrated by the statements made regarding My Life on the Poetics list. Any time a reader makes a copy of a book for which we have not given permission he or she is showing a great disregard for both author and publisher, since neither will see any money that would help the writer to survive and help the publisher to keep the book (and others) in print. Perhaps, as Standard Shaefer has suggested, it might have been more sensible to have contacted the publisher (Sun & Moon or Green Integer) than simply getting on the list and presenting incorrect information. I am quite available, and will be happy to answer any questions you have about any book we publish. You can contact me, Douglas Messerli, at djmess at greeninteger.com My best, Douglas Messerli From cstroffo at earthlink.net Fri Dec 14 19:30:17 2001 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2001 16:30:17 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Welcoming "Billie" References: <24.1dd30a2d.29475b8c@aol.com> Message-ID: <3C1A9999.77A88CE0@earthlink.net> Yes, and not only that, if you get Golding drunk, he'll sing along with Lou Reed songs at poetry conferences in New England.... X2deuce at aol.com wrote: > Cris explains me. She is saying not to be somebody else who you cant be, be > yourself. Do not copy somebodys opinions. But I forgive you. I agree with > this because somebody wil find out. When you grow old you will not be sorry > that you had began to learn the right and the wrong ways to behave about > writing. Golding did a checkup on me. Then Sam complemented him. Thanks > you Cris for helping me with my life, cleaning the mess in it. Gynn Mcvay > had said she always knew of this. My opinion of Golding is like a teacher who > is nasty but has a kind heart underneth it. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From X2deuce at aol.com Sat Dec 15 03:50:57 2001 From: X2deuce at aol.com (X2deuce at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 03:50:57 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Welcoming "Billie" Message-ID: In a message dated 12/14/01 7:28:21 PM, cstroffo at earthlink.net writes: << if you get Golding drunk, he'll sing along with Lou Reed songs >> Alchlolism is a disease for everybody. Golding is not a bad person even if he is drunk. Always make sure there is a designated driver if he wants to drive. Friends dont let freinds act like Golding. He drinks alot. He will have a hard time going cold turkey if he loves himself. If you are a good friened stop him from wasting his self. Probably Golding hated the person he turned into when he became a drunk. Cris is worried about Goldng because he is always drunk. Maybe he is unemployted. Cris loves Golding but he hates his drunkness. Cris is trying to help Golding to stop being drunk. I think Golding is always drunk when he writes his emails according to cris. Goldng likes Lou reed. Do not give up! Luv Billie From act at eastendensemble.com Sat Dec 15 07:19:17 2001 From: act at eastendensemble.com (act) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 07:19:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Join us for an on going poetry slam/gathering/all welcome Message-ID: <000801c18562$b9702bf0$f34a79a5@garrett> The East End Ensemble hosts a poetry slam every Wednesday night from 7pm until. We are located at 273 Smith street in Carroll Gardens , Brooklyn.Give us a call or come on by. For more info e mail us at the above address or go to our website www.eastendensemble.com Also, we are looking for poems, essays, and the like for a new book on 9/11 called: 9-11 A Brooklyn Perspective.Any and all poetry, song lyrics,essays,letters,etc. will be gathered into a book for publication. The proceeds of which shall go to The Robin Hood Fund, The September 11th Fund and the most needy charities which have been left out due to 9/11. Please contact Garrett McConnell for more information at gmcconnell at eastendensemble.com Thank You and Have a safe,Happy, Holiday. The East End Ensemble 273 Smith street Brooklyn, New York 11231 718-624-8878 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Sat Dec 15 17:57:26 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2001 17:57:26 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of Message-ID: <145.667d01c.294d2f56@aol.com> My vote: Yusef Komunyakaa's Pleasure Dome: New & Selected Poems Wesleyan U. Press, 2001 Finnegan A YK to Jacko poem... Never Land I don't wish you were one of The Jackson Five tonight, only you were still inside yourself unchanged by the vampire moonlight. So eager to play The Other, did you forget Dracula was singled out because of his dark hair & olive skin? After you became your cover, tabloid headlines grafted your name to a blond boy's. The personals bled through the newsprint, across your face. Victor Frankenstein knew we must love our inventions. Now, maybe skin will start to grow over the lies & subtract everything that under- mines nose & cheekbone. You could tell us if loneliness is what makes the sparrow sing. Michael, don't care what the makeup artist says, you know your sperm will never reproduce that face in the oval mirror. --Yusef Komunyakaa From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Sun Dec 16 13:39:24 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 12:39:24 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of/ Dugan Message-ID: <200112161838.fBGIcCv38981@mx14.mx.voyager.net> I'd love to hear more "best of" recommendations of recent books. I haven't yet swallowed hard and shelled out my $35 for Alan Dugan's *Poems Seven: New & Complete Poetry*, so I haven't seen his newest work, but I'm guessing this book will soon enough be on my "best of" list. Dugan is truly one of a kind, it seems to me. It is great to have his work back in print again. There's a nice thoughtful review of Dugan's collected by Robert Pinsky in the New York Times, along with a few sample poems: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/12/16/books/review/16PINSKYT.html And here's one of his oldest poems: How We Heard the Name The river brought down dead horses, dead men and military debris, indicative of war or official acts upstream, but it went by, it all goes by, that is the thing about the river. Then a soldier on a log went by. He seemed drunk and we asked him Why had he and this junk come down to us so from the past upstream. ''Friends,'' he said, ''the great Battle of Granicus has just been won by all of the Greeks except the Lacedaemonians and myself: this is a joke between me and a man named Alexander, whom all of you ba-bas will hear of as a god.'' --Alan Dugan _______________________ David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu _______________________ From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Sun Dec 16 14:20:59 2001 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 14:20:59 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of/ Dugan Message-ID: <42.1f24c03d.294e4e1b@aol.com> In a message dated 12/16/2001 1:41:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, grahamd at mail.ripon.edu writes: > I haven't yet swallowed hard and shelled out my $35 for Alan Dugan's *Poems > Seven: New & Complete Poetry*, so I haven't seen his newest work, but I'm > guessing this book will soon enough be on my "best of" list. > David: $22.50 at www.half.com Jeffrey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From X2deuce at aol.com Sun Dec 16 20:07:02 2001 From: X2deuce at aol.com (X2deuce at aol.com) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 20:07:02 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Best of/ Dugan Message-ID: <18e.9a5f09.294e9f36@aol.com> Douglass Messerlie wrote a book about Green intiger. Dungan wrote a book about a pollutued river. It cost 35 dollars. Douglass is complainting about not buying his book instead of copying the volume on xerox or handwriting it out for free. Dunganses expensive poems are the best of 2001 according to James when he finally reads it. He says he will like them the most by teaching the list to like it. I think Dungan is prdicting Oasma a bin Laden in his war poem. It takres place in the US civil wars. Their was slavery. Alexander is a ranaway slave on a log. This is like blowing up the World Trade Center. The tape shows that Osma blew it up. According to Dungan the war between the south freed the slaves. Abrahm Lincoln got shot in a play. This is one of the best books in 2001. Luv, Billie From Thom424 at aol.com Sun Dec 16 22:58:51 2001 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2001 22:58:51 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] 1914 Xmas Truce Poem Message-ID: <14.1f74081e.294ec77b@aol.com> Who wrote poems about the Xmas truce of 1914? From acgold01 at gwise.louisville.edu Mon Dec 17 00:21:31 2001 From: acgold01 at gwise.louisville.edu (Alan C. Golding) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 00:21:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Yes, and not only that, if you get Golding drunk, he'll sing along with Lou Reed Message-ID: "Yes, and not only that, if you get Golding drunk, he'll sing along with Lou Reed songs at poetry conferences in New England...." Yes, and not only that, he'll sing along with Lou Reed songs even if you don't get him drunk. Rock and Roll Animal From JforJames at aol.com Mon Dec 17 09:58:32 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 09:58:32 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] another Alan Dugan poem Message-ID: <66.1903ae24.294f6218@aol.com> Actually it was David Graham who recommended Dugan...not that I disagree. I think I've said this before but there is a recalcitrant attitude and a sarcastic streak in Dugan that is similar to the sensibility I find in the work of William Bronk. Anyway, here's another one by Dugan that's always intrigued me Finnegan On A Professional Couple In A Side-Show She is the knife-thrower's lady: around her outline there is a rage of knives. Unharmed, he hopes, inside, she is love's engine of dark business and the target of design. What does she think of this? The same, reversed: money is money and spangled tights. Those whistling knives of his are kitchened at night. Alan Dugan Poems 4, (c) 1974 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Mon Dec 17 14:37:59 2001 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 11:37:59 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [ImitaPo] Poem References: <0.1600034025.1777635502-738719082-1008613678@topica.com> Message-ID: <3C1E4996.417B05CE@earthlink.net> But James--- he's slightly more "outwardly turning" than Bronk.....no? Patrick Herron wrote: > Imitation Poetics > imitationpoetics at topica.com > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > POEM > > by Alan Dugan > > After your first poetry reading > I shook hands with you > and got a hard-on. Thank you. > We know that old trees > can not feel a thing > when the green tips burst > through the tough bark in spring, > but that's the way it felt, > that's the Objective Correlative > between us poets, love: > a wholly unexpected pain > of something new breaking out > with something old about it > like your new radical poems > those audible objects of love > breaking out through nerves > as you sweated up on stage, > going raw into painful air > for everyone to know. > > Patrick > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Imitation Poetics web site: > http://www.topica.com/lists/imitationpoetics/ > > ==^================================================================ > This email was sent to: cstroffo at earthlink.net > > EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bUrJ6z.bVWYWi > Or send an email to: imitationpoetics-unsubscribe at topica.com > > T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! > http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register > ==^================================================================ From Thom424 at aol.com Mon Dec 17 14:52:31 2001 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:52:31 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems about Xmas Truce of 1914 Message-ID: Can anyone provide authors/titles of poems written about the famous WW I Xmas truce of 1914? Thanks. Thom Tammaro Moorhead, MN From kellogg at duke.edu Mon Dec 17 15:09:43 2001 From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 15:09:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems about Xmas Truce of 1914 References: Message-ID: <3C1E5107.21FC1BFD@duke.edu> Here's one by Paul Muldoon. It was published in a chapbook called _Names and Addresses_, then in _Why Brownlee Left_, and then in his _Collected Poems_. TRUCE It begins with one or two soldiers And one or two following With hampers over their shoulders. They might be off wildfowling As they would another Christmas Day, So gingerly they pick their steps. No one seems sure of what to do. All stop when one stops. A fire gets lit. Some spread Their greatcoats on the frozen ground. Polish vodka, fruit and bread Are broken out and passed round. The air of an old German song, The rules of Patience, are the secrets They'll share before long. They draw on their last cigarettes As Friday-night lovers, when it's over, Might get up from their mattresses To congratulate each other And exchange names and addreses. Thom424 at aol.com wrote: > Can anyone provide authors/titles of poems written about the famous WW I Xmas > truce of 1914? > > Thanks. > > Thom Tammaro > Moorhead, MN > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- David Kellogg Director, Writing in the Disciplines Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing Duke University (919) 668-1615; FAX (919) 681-0637 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Dec 17 16:10:06 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:10:06 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems about Xmas Truce of 1914 Message-ID: <9b.1fcff9f0.294fb92e@cs.com> In a message dated 12/17/2001 1:53:44 PM Central Standard Time, Thom424 at aol.com writes: > Can anyone provide authors/titles of poems written about the famous WW I > Xmas > truce of 1914? > I'm not sure, but Paul Fussell may quote one of them in The Great War and Modern Memory. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon Dec 17 18:02:44 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 18:02:44 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Bronk v. Dugan Message-ID: <63.38c87ce.294fd394@aol.com> In a message dated 12/17/01 2:35:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, cstroffo at earthlink.net writes: > But James--- > he's slightly more "outwardly turning" > than Bronk.....no? > > Chris, you're being too cryptic for me to adequately respond. Of course Dugan is still alive and Bronk's passed on...& Dugan is demonstrating, at least when that poem was written, that he's still sensate, shall we say. Anyway, do you mean that Bronk's concerns are often more philosophical and a certain number of WB's poems are almost hermetic? Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Dec 17 20:02:28 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:02:28 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems about Xmas Truce of 1914 Message-ID: <11a.8fb149e.294fefa4@cs.com> There's a History Channel show about this that's on tonight, 9/17. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From X2deuce at aol.com Mon Dec 17 21:06:16 2001 From: X2deuce at aol.com (X2deuce at aol.com) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:06:16 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Bronk v. Dugan Message-ID: <16e.5d64783.294ffe98@aol.com> In a message dated 12/17/01 6:03:47 PM, JforJames at aol.com writes: << WB's poems are almost hermetic? Finnegan. >> William and Alan are two of the best poets. The difference is that William is a hermit type as Finnegin. Alan liked to be the opposite as of a hermit. May be they were freinds anyawy in despite of Bronkss shy behavior. Alan is a people type person personality like me who could love everybody, it doesnt matter. The poems are the best of the year. Alan was sorry that Bronks had died if they heard of each other. They were high up. In my opinion the funeral was a lavish affair. Luv forever, Billie From gmcvay at patriot.net Mon Dec 17 21:23:46 2001 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 21:23:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Bronk v. Dugan In-Reply-To: <16e.5d64783.294ffe98@aol.com> Message-ID: Dear Billie (I don't recall your mentioning--is your last name Burke, by any chance?), I think you are right. Finnegin is like a hermit, you know, an acidic type who always stays a wake. The last part of Finnegin is "gin." Gin is a distilled spirit. Therefore, Finnegin is a very spiritual man. Gwyn From cstroffo at earthlink.net Mon Dec 17 21:35:23 2001 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 18:35:23 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bronk v. Dugan References: <63.38c87ce.294fd394@aol.com> Message-ID: <3C1EAB6B.E66DE8C9@earthlink.net> I think James i got confused---- there were two different lists I'm on, both discussing Dugan---- I didn't realize it at the time..... ignore.....sorry... Chris JforJames at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/17/01 2:35:53 PM Eastern Standard Time, > cstroffo at earthlink.net writes: > > > >> But James--- >> he's slightly more "outwardly turning" >> than Bronk.....no? >> > > Chris, you're being too cryptic for me to adequately > respond. Of course Dugan is still alive and > Bronk's passed on...& Dugan is demonstrating, > at least when that poem was written, that he's > still sensate, shall we say. Anyway, do you mean > that Bronk's concerns are often more philosophical > and a certain number of WB's poems are almost hermetic? > Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Tue Dec 18 09:45:10 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 09:45:10 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Kaplinski poem Message-ID: "We started home, my son and I" We started home, my son and I. Twilight already. The Young moon stood in the western sky and beside it a single star. I showed them to my son and explained how the moon should be greeted and that this star is the moon's servant. As we neared home, he said that the moon is far, as far as that place where we went. I told him the moon is much, much farther and reckoned: if one were to walk ten kilometers each day, it would take almost a hundred years to reach the moon. But this was not what he wanted to hear. The road was already almost dry. The river was spread on the marsh; ducks and other waterfowl crowed the beginning of night. The snow's crust crackled underfoot - it must have been freezing again. All the houses' windows were dark. Only in our kitchen a light shone. Beside our chimney, the shining moon, and beside the moon, a single star. -- Jaan Kaplinski translated from the Estonian by the Author with Sam Hamill and Riina Tamm copyright (c) 1987. From "The Wandering Border," published by Copper Canyon Press (http://www.coppercanyonpress.org). From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Dec 18 09:50:55 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 09:50:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Hans Magnus Enzenberger, 'joy" Message-ID: joy she does not want me to speak of her she won't be put down on paper she can't stand prophets she is a stranger but i know her i know her well she will overthrow all that is settled and fast she will not lie she will riot by her alone i am justified she is my reason, my reason of state she does not belong to me she is strange and headstrong i harbour, i hide her like a disgrace she is a fugitive not to be shared with others not to be kept for yourself i keep nothing from her i share with her all i have she will leave me others will harbour her on her long flight to victory and hide her by night --Hans Magnus Enzenberger (trans. H.M.E.) Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html From wasanthony at yahoo.com Tue Dec 18 10:27:40 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 07:27:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Hans Magnus Enzenberger, 'joy" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011218152740.95544.qmail@web12104.mail.yahoo.com> Japanese Bloodgod I feed my sorrow I feed my sorrow spinach I feed my sorrow eggs I feed my sorrow sunflowers I feed my sorrow pineapples and newspapers and trash There is a cake rising for my sorrow I feed it opium and I buy Scotch tape for it I buy batteries for my sorrow I throw coins at my sorrow I look at it through binoculars I throw lavender on the sheets of my sorrow I burn frankincense for my sorrow I starch my sorrow I iron it flat, then fold it up again I buy blueberries for my sorrow Like all things, it likes itself It likes what it is made of When I want to touch it I fill the sink with hot water and add a submarine ? 2001 Mary Ruefle --- Halvard Johnson wrote: > joy > > she does not want me to speak of her > she won't be put down on paper > she can't stand prophets > > she is a stranger > but i know her > i know her well > > she will overthrow all that is settled and fast > she will not lie > she will riot > > by her alone i am justified > she is my reason, my reason of state > she does not belong to me > > she is strange and headstrong > i harbour, i hide her > like a disgrace > > she is a fugitive > not to be shared with others > not to be kept for yourself > > i keep nothing from her > i share with her all i have > she will leave me > > others will harbour her > on her long flight to victory > and hide her by night > > --Hans Magnus Enzenberger (trans. H.M.E.) > > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Dec 18 10:32:13 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 10:32:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Adventures at Home" Message-ID: Adventures at Home Sunday: Skipping church for a change and just staying home and "reading the papers." Monday: Cleaning up around the house. Doing the laundry. Taking Hans, the giant schnauzer, for a walk--twice. Looking up "skilicet" and learning what it means. Tuesday: Fixing things: broken dishes, doors that don't fit. These take more time than you'd think. Wednesday: Playing Chopin's "Revolutionary" ?tude on the Pianola. Trying to understand why it is called revolutionary. Thursday: Feeding the baby and changing its diaper. Friday: Watching a movie on TV, or maybe renting something and trying out the new VCR. Bu?uel, perhaps, or something by Monty Python. Saturday: Taking a bath, needed or not. Staying up late. Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html From JforJames at aol.com Tue Dec 18 11:11:04 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 11:11:04 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN LITERATURE Message-ID: <74.151a3e83.2950c498@aol.com> Snagged from the wompo list, but I imagine the invitation is open until all the slots are taken...certain omissions (HD, Rukeyser,...) were noted by members of that list... >Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 15:25:38 -0500 >From: "Parini, Jay" >Subject: Oxford Encyclopedia > >. . . . the OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN LITERATURE, which I'm >just beginning to >assemble.... > >I will append the table of contents. These will be essays of either ten or >five thousand words...depending on the subject. OUP will pay $2000 for ten >thousand, $1000 for one thousand word essays. > >Please do pass this around to your friends and colleagues. I'm looking for >good people to write for me. > >All best, > >Jay > >Jay Parini >Middlebury College > > The Oxford Encyclopedia of American Literature > Edited by Jay Parini > > Table of Contents > > > MAJOR AUTHORS > > Henry Adams > Edward Albee > John Ashbery > W.H. Auden > James Baldwin > Saul Bellow > Elizabeth Bishop > Anne Bradstreet > Willa Cather > Hart Crane > Stephen Crane > Emily Dickinson > Frederick Douglass > Theodore Dreiser > Jonathan Edwards > T.S. Eliot > Ralph Ellison > Ralph Waldo Emerson > William Faulkner > F. Scott Fitzgerald > Benjamin Franklin > Robert Frost > Don DeLillo > Nathaniel Hawthorne > Ernest Hemingway > Langston Hughes > Henry James > Sinclair Lewis > Henry Wadsworth Longfellow > Bernard Malamud > Herman Melville > James Merrill > Arthur Miller > Toni Morrison > Flannery O'Connor > Eugene O'Neill > Vladimir Nabokov > Sylvia Plath > E.A. Poe > Ezra Pound > Thomas Pynchon > Adrienne Rich > Philip Roth > J.D. Salinger > John Steinbeck > Wallace Stevens > Henry David Thoreau > Mark Twain > Edith Wharton > Walt Whitman > William Carlos Williams > Tennesee Williams > > OTHER AUTHORS > > Conrad Aiken > Julia Alvarez > Sherwood Anderson > Maya Angelou > Margaret Atwood > Russell Banks > Ann Beattie > Stephen Vincent Benet > John Berryman > Gwendolyn Brooks > William Cullen Bryant > Charles Bukowski > William S. Burroughs > Raymond Carver > John Cheever > Kate Chopin > Sandra Cisneros > James Fenimore Cooper > Truman Capote > Stephen Crane > Hector St. John de Crevecoeur > E.E. Cummings > Joan Didion > E.L. Doctorow > Paul Laurence Dunbar > W.E.B. Dubois > Richard Ford > Philip Freneau > John Gardner > Allen Ginsberg > Louise Gl?ck > Thom Gunn > John Dos Passos > Anthony Hecht > Joseph Heller > Lillian Hellman > O. Henry > William Dean Howells > Zora Neale Hurston > William Kennedy > John Irving > Washington Irving > Randall Jarrell > Sarah Orne Jewitt > Erica Jong > Jack Kerouac > Jamaica Kincaid > Maxine Hong Kingston > Galway Kinnell > Philip Levine > Jack London > Robert Lowell > Norman Mailer > David Mamet > Cotton Mather > Peter Matthiessen > Mary McCarthy > Carson McCullers > John McPhee > H.L. Mencken > W.S. Merwin > Henry Miller > Edna St. Vincent Millay > Marianne Moore > N. Scott Momaday > Gloria Naylor > Howard Nemerov > Frank Norris > Joyce Carol Oates > Tim O'Brien > Frank O'Hara > John O'Hara > Sharon Olds > Frank Norris > Grace Paley > Katherine Anne Porter > John Crowe Ransom > E.A. Robinson > Theodore Roethke > Carl Sandburg > Delmore Schwartz > Anne Sexton > Sam Shepard > Charles Simic > Neil Simon > William Gilmore Simms (and Antebellum Southern Lit) > Upton Sinclair > Isaac Bashevis Singer > Gary Soto > Jean Stafford > Gertrude Stein > Harriet Beecher Stowe > Mark Strand > Allen Tate > Booth Tarkington > Edward Taylor > James Thurber > Lionel Trilling > John Updike > Gore Vidal > Kurt Vonnegut > Derek Walcott > Alice Walker > Nathanael West > Robert Penn Warren > Eudora Welty > Phillis Wheatley > E.B. White > Richard Wilbur > Thornton Wilder > August Wilson > Edmund Wilson > Charles Wright > James Wright > Richard Wright > Louis Zukofsky > > LITERARY MASTERWORKS > > Absalom, Absalom! (Wm. Faulkner) > Age of Innocence, The (E. Warton) > All the King's Men (R.P. Warren) > Ambassadors, The (Henry Hames) > American Buffalo (David Mamet) > As I Lay Dying (Wm Faulkner) > Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas (G. Stein) > Autobiography of Malcolm X. (A. Haley and Malcolm X) > Ballad of the Sad Caf? (Carson McCullers) > Bartelby the Scrivener (H. Melville) > Bell Jar, The (Sylvia Plath) > Beloved (Toni Morrison) > Catcher in the Rye (J.D. Salinger) > Death of a Salesman (Arthur Miller) > Fences (August Wilson) > Glass Menagerie, The (Tennessee Williams) > Gone With the Wind (Margaret Mitchell) > Grapes of Wrath, The (Steinbeck) > The Great Gatsby (Fitzergerald) > Howl (Allen Ginsberg) > Huckleberry Finn (Mark Twain) > Life on the Mississippi (Mark Twain) > Light in August (Wm Faulkner) > Lolita (V. Nabokov) > Long Day's Journey into Night (E. O'Neill) > Lottery, The (Shirley Jackson) > Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock (T.S. Eliot) > Miss Lonelyhearts (Nathanial West) > Moby-Dick (Melville) > Native Son (Richard Wright) > Notes Toward a Supreme Fiction (Stevens) > On the Road (Jack Kerouac) > Our Town (Thornton Wilder) > Paterson (W.C. Williams) > Portrait of a Lady, The (Henry James) > Raisin in the Sun, A (Lorraine Hansberry) > Red Badge of Courage, The (Stephen Crane) > Scarlet Letter, The (Hawthorne) > Slaughterhouse-Five (Vonnegut) > Song of Myself (Whitman) > Sound and the Fury, The (Faulkner) > Streetcar Named Desire, A (T. Williams) > Sun Also Rises, The (Hemingway) > Tender Is the Night (Fitzgerald) > Their Eyes Were Watching God (Zora Neale Hurston) > Things They Carried, The (Tim O'Brien) > To Kill a Mockingbird (Harper Lee) > Turn of the Screw (Henry James) > Uncle Tom's Cabin (Harriet Beecher Stowe) > Walden (H.D. Thoreau) > Waste Land, The (T.S. Eliot) > Winesburg, Ohio (Sherwood Anderson) > Yellow Wallpaper, The (Charlotte Perkins Gilman) > > MOVEMENTS AND THEMES > > American Theater > Academic Novels > Algonquin Roundtable > American Autobiography > American Essay, The > American Humor > American Pragmatism > American Renaissance > Asian-American Literature > Beat Movement, The > Black Arts Movement > Black Mountain Poetry > Captivity Narratives > Confessional Poetry > Gay Literature: Poetry and Prose > Feminist Movement in Literature > Harlem Renaissance > Hispanic Fiction in America > Italian-American Literature > Imagism: Amy Lowell, H.D., others > Immigrant Literature > Jewish-American Fiction > Latino/Latina Poetry > Little Magazines > Long Poem, The > Metafiction: Pynchon, Coover, Barthes, Barthelme, Gass > Minimalism > The Muckrakers > Native American Literature > Naturalism: Local Color and Regional Literature > Nature Writing: Poetry > Nature Writing: Prose > New Critics, The > New Formalism, The > New Journalism, The > New York Intellectuals > New York School of Poets > Objectivism (Reznikoff, Zukofsy, Oppen) > Popular Fiction > Proletarian Literature (including the WPA Writers' Project) > Puritanism in American Literature > Schoolhouse Poets, The: Whittier, Bryant, Lowell, etc. > Science Fiction > Sentimental Literature: Charles Brockden Brown, Harriet B. >Stowe, Horatio Alger, etc. > Slave Narratives > Southern Agrarianism and The Fugitives > Southern Women Writers > Transcendentalism > War, The Literature of > West Coast School > Western Fiction: Zane Gray, Stegner, McMurtry, Cormac >McCarthy, etc. > Vietnam in Poetry and Prose From cstroffo at earthlink.net Tue Dec 18 13:46:25 2001 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 10:46:25 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Hans Magnus Enzenberger, 'joy" References: Message-ID: <3C1F8F01.E991FFB4@earthlink.net> Halvard--- Good to see a poem by HME here; don't know if I like it yet.... but I'm glad to hear other people actually know him--- being a big fan of that "Poems For People Who Don't Read Poems" book (a title allegedly he didn't sanction) as well as many of his essays.... I just haven't kept up..... thanks, chris Halvard Johnson wrote: > joy > > she does not want me to speak of her > she won't be put down on paper > she can't stand prophets > > she is a stranger > but i know her > i know her well > > she will overthrow all that is settled and fast > she will not lie > she will riot > > by her alone i am justified > she is my reason, my reason of state > she does not belong to me > > she is strange and headstrong > i harbour, i hide her > like a disgrace > > she is a fugitive > not to be shared with others > not to be kept for yourself > > i keep nothing from her > i share with her all i have > she will leave me > > others will harbour her > on her long flight to victory > and hide her by night > > --Hans Magnus Enzenberger (trans. H.M.E.) > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Dec 18 13:59:15 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 13:59:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Hans Magnus Enzenberger, 'joy" In-Reply-To: <3C1F8F01.E991FFB4@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Thanks, Chris. I'm not sure if I like it either, but then I rarely get around to making decisions like that. I liked it enough to send it along. (Call that liking? Call that sending?) Anyway, there may be two copies of *Smut* around here somewhere. I may just have to go and hunt that up again one of these days. You're still trying to "keep up"? Hmm, I guess one of the privileges of senior citizenship is not having to do that anymore. Hal "language--the Riviera of consciousness" --Bob Perelman Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html > Halvard--- > > Good to see a poem by HME here; don't know if I like it yet.... > but I'm glad to hear other people actually know him--- > being a big fan of that "Poems For People Who Don't Read Poems" book > (a title allegedly he didn't sanction) as well as many of his essays.... > > I just haven't kept up..... > > thanks, chris > > Halvard Johnson wrote: > > > joy > > > > she does not want me to speak of her > > she won't be put down on paper > > she can't stand prophets > > > > she is a stranger > > but i know her > > i know her well > > > > she will overthrow all that is settled and fast > > she will not lie > > she will riot > > > > by her alone i am justified > > she is my reason, my reason of state > > she does not belong to me > > > > she is strange and headstrong > > i harbour, i hide her > > like a disgrace > > > > she is a fugitive > > not to be shared with others > > not to be kept for yourself > > > > i keep nothing from her > > i share with her all i have > > she will leave me > > > > others will harbour her > > on her long flight to victory > > and hide her by night > > > > --Hans Magnus Enzenberger (trans. H.M.E.) > > > > Hal > > > > Halvard Johnson > > =============== > > email: halvard at earthlink.net > > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Dec 18 15:27:21 2001 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 15:27:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN LITERATURE References: <74.151a3e83.2950c498@aol.com> Message-ID: <005101c18802$7b7ebc60$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> > Snagged from the wompo list, but I imagine the invitation > is open until all the slots are taken...certain omissions (HD, > Rukeyser,...) were noted by members of that list... But thank goodness "Vietnam in Poetry and Prose" will be covered. That should make up for the non-coverage of language poetry, visual poetry and just about all other post-1950 poetry of technical interest. --Bob G. From Cadaly at aol.com Tue Dec 18 16:18:54 2001 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 16:18:54 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN LITERATURE Message-ID: <65.1faecdee.29510cbe@aol.com> actually, "West Coast School" covers some of that, and it is mine, all mine Rgds, Catherine "got my Hat" Daly cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Tue Dec 18 16:29:04 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 15:29:04 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN LITERATURE Message-ID: <200112182128.fBILSbY75568@mx8.mx.voyager.net> Well, I for one am shocked, shocked! to learn that an entity like the Oxford Encyclopedia may present a lopsidedly mainstream picture of the poetic landscape. . . . I mean, who would have thought it? But don't sniff at "Vietnam in Poetry and Prose", Bob. Nothing wrong with that, I don't think. Hard to imagine a more important theme, or a more formative historical force on a whole generation. For what it's worth, I'll repeat a couple observations I made on another list, in response to the posted list of Oxford topics and authors (repasted below for those interested). Seems to me that such institutions as the Oxford are inherently conservative in nature, and that fact has both good and bad ramifications, potentially. It's easier to see the bad, of course. Just in terms of literary politics, for instance, I am curious about the division of writers on their list into "major" and "other," and how such decisions get made. Gertrude Stein, Gwendolyn Brooks, Zora Neale Hurston, and Marianne Moore *not* major, while James Merrill and Don DeLillo are? Hmmm. Also: just 8 major women out of 52 "majors"? Even if you're uncomfortable with quotas, that seems odd. I suppose that a lot of decisions get made around marketing concerns--teachers tend to like to teach what they've taught before, often, and many have formed their taste, of course, from previous anthologies. A sort of vicious circle. One pet peeve of mine is that, great as "The Waste Land" assuredly is, the studies of major *works* is never too adventurous in such reference tomes. I'd love to see Frost's "Home Burial" given its own treatment, for example--a poem every bit as good as Eliot's, if not as influential. Or Moore's "Marriage." Or. . . . Many further oddities: Plath's *Bell Jar* as a "literary masterwork" but *not* *Ariel*? But if things like the Oxford didn't exist, wouldn't the world be a much glummer place? What would we argue about if there were no anthologies? For example, despite my carefully cast bait a couple days ago, it seems that no one in these parts wants to argue about Alan Dugan, or about Pinsky's review of his collected poems. David Graham _______________________ David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu _______________________ The Oxford Encyclopedia of American Literature > Edited by Jay Parini > > Table of Contents > > > MAJOR AUTHORS > > Henry Adams > Edward Albee > John Ashbery > W.H. Auden > James Baldwin > Saul Bellow > Elizabeth Bishop > Anne Bradstreet > Willa Cather > Hart Crane > Stephen Crane > Emily Dickinson > Frederick Douglass > Theodore Dreiser > Jonathan Edwards > T.S. Eliot > Ralph Ellison > Ralph Waldo Emerson > William Faulkner > F. Scott Fitzgerald > Benjamin Franklin > Robert Frost > Don DeLillo > Nathaniel Hawthorne > Ernest Hemingway > Langston Hughes > Henry James > Sinclair Lewis > Henry Wadsworth Longfellow > Bernard Malamud > Herman Melville > James Merrill > Arthur Miller > Toni Morrison > Flannery O'Connor > Eugene O'Neill > Vladimir Nabokov > Sylvia Plath > E.A. Poe > Ezra Pound > Thomas Pynchon > Adrienne Rich > Philip Roth > J.D. Salinger > John Steinbeck > Wallace Stevens > Henry David Thoreau > Mark Twain > Edith Wharton > Walt Whitman > William Carlos Williams > Tennesee Williams > > OTHER AUTHORS > > Conrad Aiken > Julia Alvarez > Sherwood Anderson > Maya Angelou > Margaret Atwood > Russell Banks > Ann Beattie > Stephen Vincent Benet > John Berryman > Gwendolyn Brooks > William Cullen Bryant > Charles Bukowski > William S. Burroughs > Raymond Carver > John Cheever > Kate Chopin > Sandra Cisneros > James Fenimore Cooper > Truman Capote > Stephen Crane > Hector St. John de Crevecoeur > E.E. Cummings > Joan Didion > E.L. Doctorow > Paul Laurence Dunbar > W.E.B. Dubois > Richard Ford > Philip Freneau > John Gardner > Allen Ginsberg > Louise Gl?ck > Thom Gunn > John Dos Passos > Anthony Hecht > Joseph Heller > Lillian Hellman > O. Henry > William Dean Howells > Zora Neale Hurston > William Kennedy > John Irving > Washington Irving > Randall Jarrell > Sarah Orne Jewitt > Erica Jong > Jack Kerouac > Jamaica Kincaid > Maxine Hong Kingston > Galway Kinnell > Philip Levine > Jack London > Robert Lowell > Norman Mailer > David Mamet > Cotton Mather > Peter Matthiessen > Mary McCarthy > Carson McCullers > John McPhee > H.L. Mencken > W.S. Merwin > Henry Miller > Edna St. Vincent Millay > Marianne Moore > N. Scott Momaday > Gloria Naylor > Howard Nemerov > Frank Norris > Joyce Carol Oates > Tim O'Brien > Frank O'Hara > John O'Hara > Sharon Olds > Frank Norris > Grace Paley > Katherine Anne Porter > John Crowe Ransom > E.A. Robinson > Theodore Roethke > Carl Sandburg > Delmore Schwartz > Anne Sexton > Sam Shepard > Charles Simic > Neil Simon > William Gilmore Simms (and Antebellum Southern Lit) > Upton Sinclair > Isaac Bashevis Singer > Gary Soto > Jean Stafford > Gertrude Stein > Harriet Beecher Stowe > Mark Strand > Allen Tate > Booth Tarkington > Edward Taylor > James Thurber > Lionel Trilling > John Updike > Gore Vidal > Kurt Vonnegut > Derek Walcott > Alice Walker > Nathanael West > Robert Penn Warren > Eudora Welty > Phillis Wheatley > E.B. White > Richard Wilbur > Thornton Wilder > August Wilson > Edmund Wilson > Charles Wright > James Wright > Richard Wright > Louis Zukofsky > > LITERARY MASTERWORKS > > Absalom, Absalom! (Wm. Faulkner) > Age of Innocence, The (E. Warton) > All the King's Men (R.P. Warren) > Ambassadors, The (Henry Hames) > American Buffalo (David Mamet) > As I Lay Dying (Wm Faulkner) > Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas (G. Stein) > Autobiography of Malcolm X. (A. Haley and Malcolm X) > Ballad of the Sad Caf? (Carson McCullers) > Bartelby the Scrivener (H. Melville) > Bell Jar, The (Sylvia Plath) > Beloved (Toni Morrison) > Catcher in the Rye (J.D. Salinger) > Death of a Salesman (Arthur Miller) > Fences (August Wilson) > Glass Menagerie, The (Tennessee Williams) > Gone With the Wind (Margaret Mitchell) > Grapes of Wrath, The (Steinbeck) > The Great Gatsby (Fitzergerald) > Howl (Allen Ginsberg) > Huckleberry Finn (Mark Twain) > Life on the Mississippi (Mark Twain) > Light in August (Wm Faulkner) > Lolita (V. Nabokov) > Long Day's Journey into Night (E. O'Neill) > Lottery, The (Shirley Jackson) > Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock (T.S. Eliot) > Miss Lonelyhearts (Nathanial West) > Moby-Dick (Melville) > Native Son (Richard Wright) > Notes Toward a Supreme Fiction (Stevens) > On the Road (Jack Kerouac) > Our Town (Thornton Wilder) > Paterson (W.C. Williams) > Portrait of a Lady, The (Henry James) > Raisin in the Sun, A (Lorraine Hansberry) > Red Badge of Courage, The (Stephen Crane) > Scarlet Letter, The (Hawthorne) > Slaughterhouse-Five (Vonnegut) > Song of Myself (Whitman) > Sound and the Fury, The (Faulkner) > Streetcar Named Desire, A (T. Williams) > Sun Also Rises, The (Hemingway) > Tender Is the Night (Fitzgerald) > Their Eyes Were Watching God (Zora Neale Hurston) > Things They Carried, The (Tim O'Brien) > To Kill a Mockingbird (Harper Lee) > Turn of the Screw (Henry James) > Uncle Tom's Cabin (Harriet Beecher Stowe) > Walden (H.D. Thoreau) > Waste Land, The (T.S. Eliot) > Winesburg, Ohio (Sherwood Anderson) > Yellow Wallpaper, The (Charlotte Perkins Gilman) > > MOVEMENTS AND THEMES > > American Theater > Academic Novels > Algonquin Roundtable > American Autobiography > American Essay, The > American Humor > American Pragmatism > American Renaissance > Asian-American Literature > Beat Movement, The > Black Arts Movement > Black Mountain Poetry > Captivity Narratives > Confessional Poetry > Gay Literature: Poetry and Prose > Feminist Movement in Literature > Harlem Renaissance > Hispanic Fiction in America > Italian-American Literature > Imagism: Amy Lowell, H.D., others > Immigrant Literature > Jewish-American Fiction > Latino/Latina Poetry > Little Magazines > Long Poem, The > Metafiction: Pynchon, Coover, Barthes, Barthelme, Gass > Minimalism > The Muckrakers > Native American Literature > Naturalism: Local Color and Regional Literature > Nature Writing: Poetry > Nature Writing: Prose > New Critics, The > New Formalism, The > New Journalism, The > New York Intellectuals > New York School of Poets > Objectivism (Reznikoff, Zukofsy, Oppen) > Popular Fiction > Proletarian Literature (including the WPA Writers' Project) > Puritanism in American Literature > Schoolhouse Poets, The: Whittier, Bryant, Lowell, etc. > Science Fiction > Sentimental Literature: Charles Brockden Brown, Harriet B. >Stowe, Horatio Alger, etc. > Slave Narratives > Southern Agrarianism and The Fugitives > Southern Women Writers > Transcendentalism > War, The Literature of > West Coast School > Western Fiction: Zane Gray, Stegner, McMurtry, Cormac >McCarthy, etc. > Vietnam in Poetry and Prose > >But thank goodness "Vietnam in Poetry and Prose" will be covered. That >should make >up for the non-coverage of language poetry, visual poetry and just about all >other >post-1950 poetry of technical interest. > > > --Bob G. > > From JforJames at aol.com Tue Dec 18 17:51:45 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 17:51:45 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] New Tinfish titles Message-ID: <166.5d9d829.29512281@aol.com> From: "Susan M. Schultz" Subject: Do not erase this message: important book announcement!! Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I'm writing to announce the publication of Linh Dinh's new Tinfish book, Three Vietnamese Poets, which he translated. His introduction to the book is available at the Skanky Possum Pouch: http://www.skankypossum.com/pouch.htm#dinh. Three Vietnamese Poets features work by Nguyen Quoc Chanh, Phan Nhien Hao, and Van Cam Hai, their work located in places as far-flung as Hue and Silicon Valley. Book design is by Stuart Henley of the University of Hawai`i Art Department. Linh Dinh's previous chapbooks of poems are A small triumph over lassitude (Leroy, 2001) and Drunkard Boxing (Singing Horse Press, 1998). He is author of the short story collection, Fake House (Seven Stories Press, 1998) and editor of the anthology Night, Again: Contemporary Fiction from Vietnam (Seven Stories Press). He translated the poems and wrote the introduction while living in Vietnam; he moved recently to Annandale, Virginia. Tinfish Press publishes innovative poetry from the Pacific. The journal, Tinfish, comes out twice a year and is available by subscription from Susan M. Schultz, Editor, 47-728 Hui Kelu Street #9, Kaneohe, HI 96744. Tinfish 11, due out within the month, features work by Linh Dinh himself. Other recent chapbooks include Sista Tongue, by Lisa Linn Kanae, and Physics, by Lisa Asagi and Gaye Chan. More information is available from the editor at sschultz at hawaii.edu. Please forward this message to anyone who might be interested! From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Dec 18 18:03:21 2001 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:03:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN LITERATURE References: <65.1faecdee.29510cbe@aol.com> Message-ID: <001a01c18818$30f46440$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> ----- Original Message ----- From: Cadaly at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 4:18 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN LITERATURE actually, "West Coast School" covers some of that, and it is mine, all mine As usual, I just skimmed the post--and then deleted it. Is there really a topic called "West Coast School?" --Bob G. Rgds, Catherine "got my Hat" Daly cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wasanthony at yahoo.com Tue Dec 18 18:48:02 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 15:48:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN LITERATURE In-Reply-To: <001a01c18818$30f46440$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> Message-ID: <20011218234802.31980.qmail@web12102.mail.yahoo.com> I want to practice Billie-speak because it is good. The bad thing about poetry is it is not always persona. Some are not na and are a man. A person without the a. In this post, Bobby G. is a person without the a. He did not want to answer. Catherine has the hat she wanted for Christmas so Bob's post went to the trash. She is of the west coast schools. But she wonders if there is a west coast. Bob likes pictures. He also likes numbers because pictures and numbers go together. Cathy is west coast so she doesn't need numbers. Poetry is wide like west ocast and eats. - Jim --- Bob Grumman wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Cadaly at aol.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Tuesday, December 18, 2001 4:18 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN > LITERATURE > > > actually, "West Coast School" covers some of that, and it is mine, > all mine > > As usual, I just skimmed the post--and then deleted it. Is there > really a topic called "West > Coast School?" > > > --Bob G. > Rgds, > Catherine "got my Hat" Daly > cadaly at pacbell.net > ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Dec 18 18:49:40 2001 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 18:49:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN LITERATURE References: <200112182128.fBILSbY75568@mx8.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <001d01c1881e$a9707340$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> > Well, I for one am shocked, shocked! to learn that an entity like the Oxford > Encyclopedia may present a lopsidedly mainstream picture of the poetic > landscape. . . . I mean, who would have thought it? Nevertheless, I'm willing to bet that the people involved with the Oxford Encyclopedia think they are genuinely representing the state of American Poetry. So it's proper to demonstrate that someone thinks they are not. > But don't sniff at "Vietnam in Poetry and Prose", Bob. Nothing wrong with > that, I don't think. The title indicates a concern with subject-matter as opposed to literature. It's also provincial: I note that WWII in Poetry and Prose is not a subject, nor anything to do with the Civil War, or Korea, or 1776 . . . > Hard to imagine a more important theme, or a more > formative historical force on a whole generation. If you go in for ephemeral historical themes, I think drugs, the pill, the legalization of Tropic of Cancer, x-rated movies, Xerox, television, the personal computer, the moon landing, Watson/Crick, cloning, to mention a few, were more important. But I'm not interested in "formative historical forces," but in truth and beauty, so may well be missing something here. > For what it's worth, I'll repeat a couple observations I made on another > list, in response to the posted list of Oxford topics and authors (repasted > below for those interested). Seems to me that such institutions as the > Oxford are inherently conservative in nature, and that fact has both good > and bad ramifications, potentially. It's easier to see the bad, of course. I can see the good of one or two "encyclopedias" presenting the academy's idea of what's going on in a field, but what's the good of this Oxford enclyclopedia's repeating what several other similar books have already presented? > Just in terms of literary politics, for instance, I am curious about the > division of writers on their list into "major" and "other," and how such > decisions get made. > > Gertrude Stein, Gwendolyn Brooks, Zora Neale Hurston, and Marianne Moore > *not* major, while James Merrill and Don DeLillo are? Hmmm. Also: just 8 > major women out of 52 "majors"? Even if you're uncomfortable with quotas, > that seems odd. Now, I'll really upset people: to come up with their "majors," I think the editors listed the writers just about everyone considers major, like Stevens, then crammed in as many politically-correct choices as they thought they could get away with. But I, too, am bemused that Moore and Stein didn't make "major." Perhaps Stein's innovativeness is still too much for her being female and homosexual to overcome. And maybe one of the editors just had a thing against Moore. I agree that trying to work out how the editors thought is interesting. I suspect DeLillo got in to show that they are with it, or maybe he's a friend of one of the editors. > I suppose that a lot of decisions get made around marketing > concerns--teachers tend to like to teach what they've taught before, often, > and many have formed their taste, of course, from previous anthologies. A > sort of vicious circle. Definitely. > One pet peeve of mine is that, great as "The Waste Land" assuredly is, the > studies of major *works* is never too adventurous in such reference tomes. > I'd love to see Frost's "Home Burial" given its own treatment, for > example--a poem every bit as good as Eliot's, if not as influential. Or > Moore's "Marriage." Or. . . . Short lyric poems are ignored, too. Some of Stevens's single short poems are much worthier of in-depth analysis than the long one of his they picked, it seems to me. And if Toklas is a masterpiece, why isn't Stein major? Uhn, I see that the encyclopedia WILL cover one of my kinds of literature: minimalism-- except that I suspect they mean something different by the term than I do. > Many further oddities: Plath's *Bell Jar* as a "literary masterwork" but > *not* *Ariel*? > > But if things like the Oxford didn't exist, wouldn't the world be a much > glummer place? What would we argue about if there were no anthologies? Yes, but think of the arguments we could have if some of the visible anthologies clashed with each other. > For example, despite my carefully cast bait a couple days ago, it seems that > no one in these parts wants to argue about Alan Dugan, or about Pinsky's > review of his collected poems. I had nothing new to say. Yes, I know that doesn't always stop me, but in this case it did. --Bob G. From duemer at clarkson.edu Tue Dec 18 19:27:59 2001 From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2001 19:27:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN LITERATURE In-Reply-To: <001d01c1881e$a9707340$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> Message-ID: No Hayden Carruth? Shameful. jd ===================== Joseph Duemer School of Liberal Arts / 5750 Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699 duemer at clarkson.edu weblog: reading & writing From JforJames at aol.com Wed Dec 19 10:13:18 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:13:18 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Pinsky on Dugan Message-ID: <7e.1fd20139.2952088e@aol.com> In a message dated 12/18/01 4:30:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, grahamd at mail.ripon.edu writes: > For example, despite my carefully cast bait a couple days ago, it seems that > no one in these parts wants to argue about Alan Dugan, or about Pinsky's > review of his collected poems. > > David Graham David, I thought Pinsky's review was very good. Being a longtime Dugan fan, I was pleased by it. (Pleased to see the aged but unbowed Dugan on the cover of NYT Book Review, too.) Dugan has remained a little under the radar in contemporary poetry...I think this largely by his choice. You get the impression from his poetry that he's contrarian, and not for the hob-nobbing literary life. I did notice that Pinsky couldn't resist a concluding jab against avant-garde & postmo writers...suggesting that they could learn something from the Dugan model. I'm not certain that's entirely true...but the other night browsing in my copy of the New & Selected Poems (which stops at Poems 5, I think), I noticed that Dugan does experiment at times with the typography of his poems. Also, his diction can be jarring or clipped at times. (On another list Ron Silliman described his language use as a "cribbed" style.) Certainly his poetry as whole is argument with prevailing views of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness in America. Not to defend Pinsky's potshot, but I think he was probably speaking to fact that many who associate their work with the avant-garde, seem unwilling or unable to recognize (as tho critically blind to) those poets, like Dugan, whose work surges and eddies, so to speak, within the wide flow of what is called mainstream poetry. Finnegan From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Wed Dec 19 11:53:05 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 10:53:05 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pinsky on Dugan Message-ID: <200112191652.fBJGqZa94644@mx6.mx.voyager.net> I'm pretty much in agreement with you, Finnegan. It's probably unfortunate that Pinsky couldn't resist his potshot at progressive poetics, since the whole point was (or should have been) to praise Dugan, not to use him in some amorphous po-war. But it's also true, as you suggest, that the amorphous "mainstream" has plenty of interesting poets in it, like Dugan, who evade stereotype in various ways. And it would be nice to have that fact recognized more often. Likewise, though Pinsky's remark *is* a potshot and not an argument, isn't "self-reflexive doubt about language" indeed one of the bits of conventional wisdom most in need of re-examination these days? For those who haven't seen it, I'll paste below an excerpt from Pinsky's remarks. David Graham _____________________________________ In ''Plague of Dead Sharks,'' Dugan takes up the old idea of mutability, in an image that is both traditional and characteristic: What is more built for winning than the swept-back teeth, water-finished fins, and pure bad eyes these old, efficient forms of appetite are dressed in? Yet it looks as if the sea digested what it wished of them with viral ease and threw up what was left to stink and dry. The blunt, plain ''built / for winning'' has Dugan's eccentric, impatient economy, and his love for downright words of one syllable energizes ''and threw up what was left to stink and dry.'' In another kind of language, a pungent, Latinate precision, the poem considers the consuming sea's ''propensity to feed as animal entire.'' The willingness to generalize and generate logical finalities in this case expresses itself not in a moral summary but in a question and an Orphic statement: Who knows whether the sea heals or corrodes?: what the sun burns up of it, the moon puts back. The outlandish punctuation, question mark followed by colon, indicates the way this resolution hovers between the elemental and the unknowable. At the age of 78, Dugan remains a high-wire adept. A circus pro above mere flash, he has seen over his long career many tons of lion and elephant droppings go down the drains. In a period when cautious young poets may attend graduate school to learn how to be avant-garde, doing their homework in self-reflexive doubt about language, Dugan presents a challenging alternative: a lyrical skepticism, rooted in experience, that scorns the postmodern safety net. Though Dugan might hate the word, the teller of these awkward or unpleasant truths has a role that could be called sacred, as well as unwelcome. Where our appetite may be for something heroic, elevating or hedonistic, he is more likely to present us with something like a bill. --Robert Pinsky on Alan Dugan ____________________________________ _______________________ David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu _______________________ ---------- >From: JforJames at aol.com >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: [New-Poetry] Pinsky on Dugan >Date: Wed, Dec 19, 2001, 9:13 AM > >In a message dated 12/18/01 4:30:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, >grahamd at mail.ripon.edu writes: > >> For example, despite my carefully cast bait a couple days ago, it seems that >> no one in these parts wants to argue about Alan Dugan, or about Pinsky's >> review of his collected poems. >> >> David Graham >David, >I thought Pinsky's review was very good. Being a longtime Dugan >fan, I was pleased by it. (Pleased to see the aged but unbowed Dugan >on the cover of NYT Book Review, too.) Dugan has remained a little >under the radar in contemporary poetry...I think this largely by his >choice. You get the impression from his poetry that he's contrarian, >and not for the hob-nobbing literary life. >I did notice that Pinsky couldn't resist a concluding jab against >avant-garde & postmo writers...suggesting that they could learn something >from the Dugan model. I'm not certain that's entirely true...but the other >night browsing in my copy of the New & Selected Poems (which stops >at Poems 5, I think), I noticed that Dugan does experiment at times >with the typography of his poems. Also, his diction can be jarring >or clipped at times. (On another list Ron Silliman described his >language use as a "cribbed" style.) Certainly his poetry as whole is >argument with prevailing views of life, liberty and pursuit of happiness >in America. >Not to defend Pinsky's potshot, but I think he was probably speaking >to fact that many who associate their work with the avant-garde, seem >unwilling or unable to recognize (as tho critically blind to) those poets, >like Dugan, whose work surges and eddies, so to speak, within the >wide flow of what is called mainstream poetry. >Finnegan >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames at aol.com Wed Dec 19 11:55:46 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 11:55:46 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] TELLING IT SLANT Message-ID: Hey friends: TELLING IT SLANT: AVANT GARDE POETICS OF THE 1990s, ed. Mark Wallace and Steven Marks, is now out from the University of Alabama Press. This collection of 26 essays by various writers focuses on many of the essential issues regarding avant garde poetry in the last decade. I hope you'll consider buying a copy; information on how to get your 20% discount can be found at the website below. And please pass this information along to anybody else who might be interested. Contributors to the collection include: Daniel Barbiero Caroline Bergvall Charles Borkhuis Sherry Brennan Jeff Derksen Steve Evans Ben Friedlander Chris Funkhouser C. S. Giscombe Jeff Hansen Andrew Levy Tan Lin Bill Luoma Steven Marks Harryette Mullen Siann Ngai Jena Osman Kristin Prevallet Lisa Robertson Leonard Schwartz Rod Smith Juliana Spahr Brian Kim Stefans Gary Sullivan Mark Wallace Elizabeth Willis Further information, including purchase and discount information, about the book can be found at: http://www.uapress.ua.edu/authors/wallac01.html Or begin with the UA Press web site, and you'll find a link/feature for the Modern and Contemporary Poetics Series: From wasanthony at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 12:04:48 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 09:04:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pinsky on Dugan In-Reply-To: <200112191652.fBJGqZa94644@mx6.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <20011219170448.32884.qmail@web12104.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Graham wrote: > > Likewise, though Pinsky's remark *is* a potshot and not an argument, > isn't > "self-reflexive doubt about language" indeed one of the bits of > conventional > wisdom most in need of re-examination these days? For the sake of clarity, could you please translate "self-reflexive doubt about language"? And how is it "conventional wisdom"? One would need to know all that before deciding whether to re-examine, or whether one is even able to examine objectively anything that is "self-reflexive." - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Dec 19 12:06:00 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 12:06:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pinsky on Dugan In-Reply-To: <20011219170448.32884.qmail@web12104.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Pinsky, not David, is the guy to ask, Jim. Hal "All revolutions have been betrayed By slush of feeling . . ." --Bill Berkson Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html > --- David Graham wrote: > > > > Likewise, though Pinsky's remark *is* a potshot and not an argument, > > isn't > > "self-reflexive doubt about language" indeed one of the bits of > > conventional > > wisdom most in need of re-examination these days? > > For the sake of clarity, could you please translate "self-reflexive > doubt about language"? And how is it "conventional wisdom"? One would > need to know all that before deciding whether to re-examine, or whether > one is even able to examine objectively anything that is > "self-reflexive." > > - Jim > > ===== > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net > Salt River Review: > "Ripples" @ > Poetserv: > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Wed Dec 19 15:20:16 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 14:20:16 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Reflexive Message-ID: <200112192019.fBJKJim16535@mx8.mx.voyager.net> Hey, is this a postmodern moment or what? I'm being asked to translate what "self-reflexive doubt about language" means! I didn't mean anything too fancy by it, Jim, and I don't suppose Pinsky did, either. Not presuming to speak for RP, I simply refer to the tide of poems these days that weave into their very fabric all sorts of doubts about the efficacy of language--thinking of all those poems (not just by certified LangPo's) that include various strategies of ellipsis, self-cancellation, fragmentation, multiplicity of tone and surface, etc. Poems that use language to communicate the question of whether language can communicate, etc. In my view, such poetry is so commonplace these days that it has become one of our period styles. Of course, lyric poets for centuries have had doubts about the efficacy of language--what we're seeing today is a surge of poems that put such a theme rather insistently in the foreground. (Along with that, such poets *sometimes* treat poets who put the theme in the background (e.g. Frost) as naive or simplistic, but that's another argument.) In any case, I think that when an allegiance to such a poetics blinds one to the possible virtues of a poetics that does not choose to put self-reflexiveness about language in the foreground, then we're in the realm of conventional wisdom. Which is always worth examining. Please note that I'm not denying that there are other period styles, equally ripe for examination. _______________________ David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu _______________________ ---------- >From: jcervantes >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Pinsky on Dugan >Date: Wed, Dec 19, 2001, 11:04 AM > > >--- David Graham wrote: >> >> Likewise, though Pinsky's remark *is* a potshot and not an argument, >> isn't >> "self-reflexive doubt about language" indeed one of the bits of >> conventional >> wisdom most in need of re-examination these days? > >For the sake of clarity, could you please translate "self-reflexive >doubt about language"? And how is it "conventional wisdom"? One would >need to know all that before deciding whether to re-examine, or whether >one is even able to examine objectively anything that is >"self-reflexive." > >- Jim > >===== From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Dec 19 15:53:17 2001 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 15:53:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pinsky on Dugan References: <200112191652.fBJGqZa94644@mx6.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <007e01c188cf$2fe61460$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> > In a period when cautious young poets may attend graduate > school to learn how to be avant-garde, doing their homework in > self-reflexive doubt about language, The only thing I don't like about this remark is its implication that self-reflexive doubt about language is the basis of avant-garde poetry. I agree that for too many poets such self-reflexive doubt DOES provide the basis of their poetry, but there are a lot of avant-garde poets, by whatever name, who have no such doubt. (Confession: I'm not sure what "self-reflexive doubt about language" would be so take it mainly as automatic, expressed doubt about language.) --Bob G. From duemer at clarkson.edu Wed Dec 19 16:58:59 2001 From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 16:58:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Reflexive In-Reply-To: <200112192019.fBJKJim16535@mx8.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: David, I'm pretty catholic in my poetic tastes, but when you say, <> I can't help wondering what we have learned from the history of the 20th century, if not that language is a problematic medium. And since poets are concerned by the nature of their craft with language, it's not surprising that a lot of poetry deals with the nature of its medium. Which is not to say that poetry cannot do other things as well-poetry still "works" because language has not been completely drained of its ability to express & communicate. (It couldn't of course call itself into question otherwise.) This may be conventional wisdom, but on examination it seems to me it holds up pretty well. jd ===================== Joseph Duemer School of Liberal Arts / 5750 Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699 duemer at clarkson.edu weblog: reading & writing From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Dec 19 17:08:59 2001 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 17:08:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Reflexive References: <200112192019.fBJKJim16535@mx8.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <009801c188d9$c31e2ce0$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> Maybe this is dumb but I'm not clear about how one can be SELF-reflexively doubtful about language. --Bob G. From JforJames at aol.com Wed Dec 19 17:38:29 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 17:38:29 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Tomas Kitchaid: Poet of Light Message-ID: <159.617363a.295270e5@aol.com> Tomas Kitchade: Poet of Light In this poem there is a little village and a brook that wends its way under a covered footbridge. Now and forever a brick walk will lead you to the door of a cottage. Let's say the wind stole a shingle or two. All the windowpanes aglow with a rich yellow light as though at any moment a ruddy cheeked child might peek from behind the curtains. In this poem, as in my others, smoke wafts from the chimney into a dreamy twilit sky. Always it is a few days before Christmas. From X2deuce at aol.com Wed Dec 19 21:07:58 2001 From: X2deuce at aol.com (X2deuce at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 21:07:58 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Reflexive Message-ID: <151.6059860.2952a1fe@aol.com> I think it is like when the time that the doctor hits you in the knees. Except you do it you do it to your own legs. --Billie From wasanthony at yahoo.com Wed Dec 19 22:48:00 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 19:48:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Reflexive In-Reply-To: <151.6059860.2952a1fe@aol.com> Message-ID: <20011220034800.2572.qmail@web12101.mail.yahoo.com> --- X2deuce at aol.com wrote: > I think it is like when the time that the doctor hits you in the > knees. > Except you do it you do it to your own legs. > > --Billie Hey, I've done that! But it results in a moment of clarity. With that poetics David is talking about, it just makes things fuzzier. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Wed Dec 19 23:20:16 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2001 22:20:16 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Self-Reflexive Message-ID: <200112200419.fBK4Jpr87845@mx5.mx.voyager.net> Joe, as you know, there are tomes and tomes to be written here. A few quick thoughts (I'm leaving town tomorrow for a couple weeks, so if I don't take this thread further it's not because I'm pouting or uninterested in further developments). The problematic nature of language as a medium for communication is, I think, not news to any poet of the last couple eons. No argument there, I suspect. Nor would I quarrel with the fact that 20th century poets turned the heat up considerably on such concerns. But they didn't teach me that language was problematic--I already knew that from Shakespeare, not to mention from my own awkward efforts to write. In any case, although I didn't learn that language is a problematic medium *exclusively* from reading modern poetry, I do see that theme burgeoning in recent poetry, and as a theme it's worthy enough, just as you say. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. My hesitation, if any, is with (how shall I put this?) the apparently unproblematic *way* I often see the "problematic nature of language" showing up all over the place--it's become, as I say, part of our period style. It enters the realm of fashion, and as such seems ripe for some skeptical questioning. As with any period style, it also brings its fashionable effects, all those ellipses, fragments, self-conscious erasures, and so on that I referred to earlier. (And I'll repeat: yes, there are other period styles out there.) Probably "conventional wisdom" is a poor phrase to use, but I can't think of a better one at the moment to describe this sort of thing--a truism that somehow seems to lead a great many poets to similar conclusions about stylistic choices--many of them evidently under the impression that they are being transgressive in doing so. When every second poem I see in some journals seems to be about language itself, many of them strenuous in their avoidance of conventional narrative and even continuous syntax, I recall that there are other ways to question language's efficacy than fragmentation and so forth. And finally, I want to insist that there are other themes (a great many, in fact) that continue to be of interest beyond language itself. To the extent that I feel like arguing any position, it would probably be to speak up for pluralism in such matters. (And that's what I *thought* Pinsky was trying to do, in pointing to the virtues of Alan Dugan's poetry.) But I suspect we agree on pluralism. David Graham _______________________ David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu _______________________ ---------- >From: "Joseph Duemer" >To: >Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Self-Reflexive >Date: Wed, Dec 19, 2001, 3:58 PM > >David, >I'm pretty catholic in my poetic tastes, but when you say, > ><to the possible virtues of a poetics that does not choose to put >self-reflexiveness about language in the foreground, then we're in the realm >of conventional wisdom. Which is always worth examining.>> > >I can't help wondering what we have learned from the history of the 20th >century, if not that language is a problematic medium. And since poets are >concerned by the nature of their craft with language, it's not surprising >that a lot of poetry deals with the nature of its medium. Which is not to >say that poetry cannot do other things as well-poetry still "works" because >language has not been completely drained of its ability to express & >communicate. (It couldn't of course call itself into question otherwise.) >This may be conventional wisdom, but on examination it seems to me it holds >up pretty well. > >jd > From JforJames at aol.com Thu Dec 20 12:34:12 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 12:34:12 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN LITERATURE Message-ID: <62.181efdc2.29537b14@aol.com> Others, major/minor, who missed Parini's cut... Robinson Jeffers Laura (Riding) Jackson Amy Lowell A.R. Ammons Diane DiPrima Mina Loy Robert Bly Lawrence Ferlinghetti Richard Hugo William Stafford Cselaw Milosz Vachel Lindsay Archibald McLeish Stanley Kunitz Louise Bogan May Swenson Dasheill Hammett Cormac McCarthy Yvor Winters Kenneth Burke R.P. Blackmur From wasanthony at yahoo.com Thu Dec 20 13:34:35 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 10:34:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Tomas Kitchaid: Poet of Light In-Reply-To: <159.617363a.295270e5@aol.com> Message-ID: <20011220183435.91847.qmail@web12102.mail.yahoo.com> By the way, I really like this. Who is/was Tomas Kitchade? - Jim --- JforJames at aol.com wrote: > Tomas Kitchade: Poet of Light > > In this poem there is a little village > and a brook that wends its way > under a covered footbridge. > > Now and forever a brick walk will lead > you to the door of a cottage. > Let's say the wind stole a shingle or two. > All the windowpanes aglow > with a rich yellow light as though > at any moment a ruddy cheeked child > might peek from behind the curtains. > > In this poem, as in my others, smoke wafts > from the chimney into a dreamy twilit sky. > Always it is a few days before Christmas. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From kellogg at duke.edu Thu Dec 20 13:52:49 2001 From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:52:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tomas Kitchaid: Poet of Light References: <20011220183435.91847.qmail@web12102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3C223381.86C0E4F@duke.edu> That is hilarious. jcervantes wrote: > By the way, I really like this. Who is/was Tomas Kitchade? > > - Jim > > --- JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > Tomas Kitchade: Poet of Light > > > > In this poem there is a little village > > and a brook that wends its way > > under a covered footbridge. > > > > Now and forever a brick walk will lead > > you to the door of a cottage. > > Let's say the wind stole a shingle or two. > > All the windowpanes aglow > > with a rich yellow light as though > > at any moment a ruddy cheeked child > > might peek from behind the curtains. > > > > In this poem, as in my others, smoke wafts > > from the chimney into a dreamy twilit sky. > > Always it is a few days before Christmas. > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > ===== > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net > Salt River Review: > "Ripples" @ > Poetserv: > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- David Kellogg Director, Writing in the Disciplines Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing Duke University (919) 668-1615; FAX (919) 681-0637 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg From JforJames at aol.com Thu Dec 20 14:14:29 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 14:14:29 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Tomas Kitchaid: Poet of Light Message-ID: <175.11a3336.29539295@aol.com> In a message dated 12/20/01 1:36:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, wasanthony at yahoo.com writes: > By the way, I really like this. Who is/was Tomas Kitchade? > > - Jim > > --- JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > Tomas Kitchade: Poet of Light > > > > In this poem there is a little village > > and a brook that wends its way > > under a covered footbridge. > > > > Now and forever a brick walk will lead > > you to the door of a cottage. > > Let's say the wind stole a shingle or two. > > All the windowpanes aglow > > with a rich yellow light as though > > at any moment a ruddy cheeked child > > might peek from behind the curtains. > > > > In this poem, as in my others, smoke wafts > > from the chimney into a dreamy twilit sky. > > Always it is a few days before Christmas. In a message dated 12/20/01 1:36:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, wasanthony at yahoo.com writes: > By the way, I really like this. Who is/was Tomas Kitchade? > Jim, that was something I drafted last night after work sitting at my desk & staring out of the window. (Later I realized I'd misspelt "kitsch", should have "Kitschade").... anyway, I was having a little fun with the "artist" (& the commerce of) Thomas Kinkade: Painter of Light.... his company mass produces his very romantized artworks in signed editions. He employs "master highlighters" who, with oil paint, touch in hues of light on the prints. It's godawful art that very successfully speaks to the sentimental side of folks. He makes Norman Rockwell seem the American Rembrandt. Oh, but in that brief reverie, I was the Poet of Light. Finnegan PS: I'm reminded now of an Alan Dugan quote. Once he was asked why his poems were so dark...he answered: "Because I abhor cheap affirmation." Youch. From wasanthony at yahoo.com Thu Dec 20 16:57:04 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:57:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Tomas Kitchaid: Poet of Light In-Reply-To: <3C223381.86C0E4F@duke.edu> Message-ID: <20011220215704.23950.qmail@web12102.mail.yahoo.com> My Google search for "Tomas Kitchade" gave me this: Did you mean: "Tomas Kitchenaid" Your search - "Tomas Kitchade" - did not match any documents. No pages were found containing "kitchade". Suggestions: Make sure all words are spelled correctly. Try different keywords. Try more general keywords. Gosh, you guys just don't stop! - Jim ;-) --- David Kellogg wrote: > That is hilarious. > > jcervantes wrote: > > > By the way, I really like this. Who is/was Tomas Kitchade? > > > > - Jim > > > > --- JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > > Tomas Kitchade: Poet of Light > > > > > > In this poem there is a little village > > > and a brook that wends its way > > > under a covered footbridge. > > > > > > Now and forever a brick walk will lead > > > you to the door of a cottage. > > > Let's say the wind stole a shingle or two. > > > All the windowpanes aglow > > > with a rich yellow light as though > > > at any moment a ruddy cheeked child > > > might peek from behind the curtains. > > > > > > In this poem, as in my others, smoke wafts > > > from the chimney into a dreamy twilit sky. > > > Always it is a few days before Christmas. > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > ===== > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net > > Salt River Review: > > "Ripples" @ > > Poetserv: > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of > > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com > > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- > David Kellogg > Director, Writing in the Disciplines > Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing > Duke University > (919) 668-1615; FAX (919) 681-0637 > http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From tadrichards at prodigy.net Thu Dec 20 17:31:06 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 17:31:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tomas Kitchaid: Poet of Light References: <20011220215704.23950.qmail@web12102.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00ed01c189a6$042fc320$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> > > > Tomas Kitchenaid: Poet of Convenience > > > > > > In this poem there is a little kitchen > > > and a sink that drains its way > > > into a quaint suburban sewer system. > > > > > > Now and forever a garbage disposall will merge > > > coffee grounds, tangerine rinds, eggshells. > > > Let's say an egg or two hit the floor. > > > The quicker picker upper, > > > full and quilted, > > > will scoop it up before the curly-tailed retriever > > > comes scampering from the mudroom. > > > > > > In this poem, as in my others, the cuisinart > > > blends the juice of healthy vegetables. > > > Always it is a few days before the great President's Day sales. > > > Tad Richards "A vicious mole of nature." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 4 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "jcervantes" To: Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 4:57 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tomas Kitchaid: Poet of Light > My Google search for "Tomas Kitchade" gave me this: > > Did you mean: "Tomas Kitchenaid" > > > Your search - "Tomas Kitchade" - did not match any documents. > No pages were found containing "kitchade". > > Suggestions: > > Make sure all words are spelled correctly. > Try different keywords. > Try more general keywords. > > Gosh, you guys just don't stop! > > - Jim ;-) > > > --- David Kellogg wrote: > > That is hilarious. > > > > jcervantes wrote: > > > > > By the way, I really like this. Who is/was Tomas Kitchade? > > > > > > - Jim > > > > > > --- JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > > > Tomas Kitchade: Poet of Light > > > > > > > > In this poem there is a little village > > > > and a brook that wends its way > > > > under a covered footbridge. > > > > > > > > Now and forever a brick walk will lead > > > > you to the door of a cottage. > > > > Let's say the wind stole a shingle or two. > > > > All the windowpanes aglow > > > > with a rich yellow light as though > > > > at any moment a ruddy cheeked child > > > > might peek from behind the curtains. > > > > > > > > In this poem, as in my others, smoke wafts > > > > from the chimney into a dreamy twilit sky. > > > > Always it is a few days before Christmas. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > ===== > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net > > > Salt River Review: > > > "Ripples" @ > > > Poetserv: > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > > > Do You Yahoo!? > > > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of > > > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com > > > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > -- > > David Kellogg > > Director, Writing in the Disciplines > > Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing > > Duke University > > (919) 668-1615; FAX (919) 681-0637 > > http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ===== > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net > Salt River Review: > "Ripples" @ > Poetserv: > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Thu Dec 20 18:41:27 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:41:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Tomas Kitchaid: Poet of Light Message-ID: <20011220234127.AFE5E36FA@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From wasanthony at yahoo.com Thu Dec 20 18:55:44 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 15:55:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN LITERATURE In-Reply-To: <62.181efdc2.29537b14@aol.com> Message-ID: <20011220235544.66063.qmail@web12108.mail.yahoo.com> I'm still flumoxed over seeing Gary Soto listed, and then, under schools and movements, "Latino and Latina poetry." Made me want to swipe the curio shelf. - Jim --- JforJames at aol.com wrote: > Others, major/minor, who missed Parini's cut... > > Robinson Jeffers > Laura (Riding) Jackson > Amy Lowell > A.R. Ammons > Diane DiPrima > Mina Loy > Robert Bly > Lawrence Ferlinghetti > Richard Hugo > William Stafford > Cselaw Milosz > Vachel Lindsay > Archibald McLeish > Stanley Kunitz > Louise Bogan > May Swenson > > Dasheill Hammett > Cormac McCarthy > > Yvor Winters > Kenneth Burke > R.P. Blackmur > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Thu Dec 20 19:10:42 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:10:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Tomas Kitchaid: Poet of Light Message-ID: <20011221001042.3EBBB2755@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From duemer at clarkson.edu Thu Dec 20 19:20:43 2001 From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 19:20:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN LITERATURE In-Reply-To: <20011220235544.66063.qmail@web12108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: How can you put Soto ON & keep Carruth OFF? jd ===================== Joseph Duemer School of Liberal Arts / 5750 Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699 duemer at clarkson.edu weblog: reading & writing From snospx at silcom.com Thu Dec 20 19:34:33 2001 From: snospx at silcom.com (Barry Spacks) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 16:34:33 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN LITERATURE In-Reply-To: References: <20011220235544.66063.qmail@web12108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011220163433.007cb480@snowcrest.net> At 07:20 PM 12/20/01 -0500, Joseph Duemer wrote: >How can you put Soto ON & keep Carruth OFF? 'piece a pork, Joe -- just press the glowing PC-button. B. From wasanthony at yahoo.com Thu Dec 20 20:12:18 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 17:12:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN LITERATURE In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20011220163433.007cb480@snowcrest.net> Message-ID: <20011221011218.21242.qmail@web12103.mail.yahoo.com> I think that is the correct answer. - Jim --- Barry Spacks wrote: > At 07:20 PM 12/20/01 -0500, Joseph Duemer wrote: > >How can you put Soto ON & keep Carruth OFF? > > 'piece a pork, Joe -- just press the glowing PC-button. > > B. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From antrobin at clipper.net Thu Dec 20 20:46:03 2001 From: antrobin at clipper.net (Anthony Robinson) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 17:46:03 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN LITERATURE References: <20011220235544.66063.qmail@web12108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01e401c189c1$423be700$9aaeefd8@0021936706> Watch it Jim. I hear cries of "racial self-loathing" coming from over yonder....[scanning the horizon] Tony "trying to think of a more mexican-sounding middle name so people will let me in the club" Robinson > I'm still flumoxed over seeing Gary Soto listed, and then, under > schools and movements, "Latino and Latina poetry." Made me want to > swipe the curio shelf. > > - Jim From wasanthony at yahoo.com Thu Dec 20 21:51:58 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 18:51:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Tomas Kitchaid: Poet of Light In-Reply-To: <175.11a3336.29539295@aol.com> Message-ID: <20011221025158.27587.qmail@web12106.mail.yahoo.com> Ah, the light went on. I'd never heard of the guy or seen his work. - Jim --- JforJames at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/20/01 1:36:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, > wasanthony at yahoo.com writes: > > > By the way, I really like this. Who is/was Tomas Kitchade? > > > > - Jim > > > > --- JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > > Tomas Kitchade: Poet of Light > > > > > > In this poem there is a little village > > > and a brook that wends its way > > > under a covered footbridge. > > > > > > Now and forever a brick walk will lead > > > you to the door of a cottage. > > > Let's say the wind stole a shingle or two. > > > All the windowpanes aglow > > > with a rich yellow light as though > > > at any moment a ruddy cheeked child > > > might peek from behind the curtains. > > > > > > In this poem, as in my others, smoke wafts > > > from the chimney into a dreamy twilit sky. > > > Always it is a few days before Christmas. > In a message dated 12/20/01 1:36:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, > wasanthony at yahoo.com writes: > > > By the way, I really like this. Who is/was Tomas Kitchade? > > > Jim, that was something I drafted last night after work > sitting at my desk & staring out of the window. (Later I > realized I'd misspelt "kitsch", should have "Kitschade").... > anyway, I was having a little fun with the "artist" (& the > commerce of) Thomas Kinkade: Painter of Light.... > his company mass produces his very romantized artworks > in signed editions. He employs "master highlighters" > who, with oil paint, touch in hues of light on the prints. > It's godawful art that very successfully speaks to > the sentimental side of folks. He makes Norman > Rockwell seem the American Rembrandt. Oh, but > in that brief reverie, I was the Poet of Light. > Finnegan > PS: I'm reminded now of an Alan Dugan quote. Once he > was asked why his poems were so dark...he answered: > "Because I abhor cheap affirmation." Youch. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From wasanthony at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 09:08:00 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 06:08:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN LITERATURE In-Reply-To: <01e401c189c1$423be700$9aaeefd8@0021936706> Message-ID: <20011221140801.91901.qmail@web12106.mail.yahoo.com> Oh gosh, let's don't go there again. I keep forgetting to put tamales in my poems and someone will notice eventually. - Jim p.s. - I'm told my favorite childhood swear word (phrase) was "caca-pee-pee-damn-shit," but I outgrew that. --- Anthony Robinson wrote: > Watch it Jim. I hear cries of "racial self-loathing" coming from > over > yonder....[scanning the horizon] > > Tony "trying to think of a more mexican-sounding middle name so > people will > let me in the club" Robinson > > > > I'm still flumoxed over seeing Gary Soto listed, and then, under > > schools and movements, "Latino and Latina poetry." Made me want to > > swipe the curio shelf. > > > > - Jim > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From kellogg at duke.edu Fri Dec 21 09:58:35 2001 From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 09:58:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tomas Kitchaid: Poet of Light References: <20011221025158.27587.qmail@web12106.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3C234E1B.70F01D31@duke.edu> Jim, The Thomas Kinkaide gallery is right next to the Bombay Company in every mall in America. It's velvet Elvises for upscale Christians. But if you're not willing to brave the malls, see http://www.fourmansgallery.com/ . Best, David jcervantes wrote: > Ah, the light went on. I'd never heard of the guy or seen his work. > > - Jim > > --- JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 12/20/01 1:36:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > wasanthony at yahoo.com writes: > > > > > By the way, I really like this. Who is/was Tomas Kitchade? > > > > > > - Jim > > > > > > --- JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > > > Tomas Kitchade: Poet of Light > > > > > > > > In this poem there is a little village > > > > and a brook that wends its way > > > > under a covered footbridge. > > > > > > > > Now and forever a brick walk will lead > > > > you to the door of a cottage. > > > > Let's say the wind stole a shingle or two. > > > > All the windowpanes aglow > > > > with a rich yellow light as though > > > > at any moment a ruddy cheeked child > > > > might peek from behind the curtains. > > > > > > > > In this poem, as in my others, smoke wafts > > > > from the chimney into a dreamy twilit sky. > > > > Always it is a few days before Christmas. > > In a message dated 12/20/01 1:36:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > wasanthony at yahoo.com writes: > > > > > By the way, I really like this. Who is/was Tomas Kitchade? > > > > > Jim, that was something I drafted last night after work > > sitting at my desk & staring out of the window. (Later I > > realized I'd misspelt "kitsch", should have "Kitschade").... > > anyway, I was having a little fun with the "artist" (& the > > commerce of) Thomas Kinkade: Painter of Light.... > > his company mass produces his very romantized artworks > > in signed editions. He employs "master highlighters" > > who, with oil paint, touch in hues of light on the prints. > > It's godawful art that very successfully speaks to > > the sentimental side of folks. He makes Norman > > Rockwell seem the American Rembrandt. Oh, but > > in that brief reverie, I was the Poet of Light. > > Finnegan > > PS: I'm reminded now of an Alan Dugan quote. Once he > > was asked why his poems were so dark...he answered: > > "Because I abhor cheap affirmation." Youch. > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > ===== > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net > Salt River Review: > "Ripples" @ > Poetserv: > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- David Kellogg Director, Writing in the Disciplines Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing Duke University (919) 668-1615; FAX (919) 681-0637 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Dec 21 10:11:42 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 10:11:42 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Tomas Kitchaid: Poet of Light Message-ID: <1e.206082d6.2954ab2e@cs.com> In a message dated 12/21/2001 9:05:08 AM Central Standard Time, kellogg at duke.edu writes: > http://www.fourmansgallery.com/ . > Sample description, broken into lines for convenience: In "Deer Creek Cottage," the world appears reborn in beauty, all the barrenness of the winter wood hidden by white. The delicate fawn, peering at the lights in the cottage windows, seems to join in the reverent mood. Perhaps even the animals of the forest can celebrate Christmas! Ick. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wasanthony at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 10:20:52 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 07:20:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Tomas Kitchaid: Poet of Light In-Reply-To: <1e.206082d6.2954ab2e@cs.com> Message-ID: <20011221152052.49623.qmail@web12102.mail.yahoo.com> Oh god! And I just had breakfast. - Jim --- Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 12/21/2001 9:05:08 AM Central Standard Time, > kellogg at duke.edu writes: > > > > http://www.fourmansgallery.com/ . > > > > Sample description, broken into lines for convenience: > > In "Deer Creek Cottage," > the world appears reborn > in beauty, all the barrenness > of the winter wood hidden > by white. The delicate fawn, > peering at the lights > in the cottage windows, seems > to join in the reverent mood. > Perhaps even the animals > of the forest can celebrate Christmas! > > > Ick. > > > > ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From wasanthony at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 10:23:14 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 07:23:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Tomas Kitchaid: Poet of Light In-Reply-To: <3C234E1B.70F01D31@duke.edu> Message-ID: <20011221152314.98089.qmail@web12101.mail.yahoo.com> Well, only some malls have the Bombay Company, and I was just in one that does. I didn't notice a Thomas Kinkaide, however. I wasn't connected then, or maybe they had their lights off. - Jim --- David Kellogg wrote: > Jim, > > The Thomas Kinkaide gallery is right next to the Bombay Company in > every > mall in America. It's velvet Elvises for upscale Christians. But if > you're not willing to brave the malls, see > http://www.fourmansgallery.com/ . > > Best, > David > > jcervantes wrote: > > > Ah, the light went on. I'd never heard of the guy or seen his > work. > > > > - Jim > > > > --- JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > > In a message dated 12/20/01 1:36:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > > wasanthony at yahoo.com writes: > > > > > > > By the way, I really like this. Who is/was Tomas Kitchade? > > > > > > > > - Jim > > > > > > > > --- JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > > > > Tomas Kitchade: Poet of Light > > > > > > > > > > In this poem there is a little village > > > > > and a brook that wends its way > > > > > under a covered footbridge. > > > > > > > > > > Now and forever a brick walk will lead > > > > > you to the door of a cottage. > > > > > Let's say the wind stole a shingle or two. > > > > > All the windowpanes aglow > > > > > with a rich yellow light as though > > > > > at any moment a ruddy cheeked child > > > > > might peek from behind the curtains. > > > > > > > > > > In this poem, as in my others, smoke wafts > > > > > from the chimney into a dreamy twilit sky. > > > > > Always it is a few days before Christmas. > > > In a message dated 12/20/01 1:36:09 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > > wasanthony at yahoo.com writes: > > > > > > > By the way, I really like this. Who is/was Tomas Kitchade? > > > > > > > Jim, that was something I drafted last night after work > > > sitting at my desk & staring out of the window. (Later I > > > realized I'd misspelt "kitsch", should have "Kitschade").... > > > anyway, I was having a little fun with the "artist" (& the > > > commerce of) Thomas Kinkade: Painter of Light.... > > > his company mass produces his very romantized artworks > > > in signed editions. He employs "master highlighters" > > > who, with oil paint, touch in hues of light on the prints. > > > It's godawful art that very successfully speaks to > > > the sentimental side of folks. He makes Norman > > > Rockwell seem the American Rembrandt. Oh, but > > > in that brief reverie, I was the Poet of Light. > > > Finnegan > > > PS: I'm reminded now of an Alan Dugan quote. Once he > > > was asked why his poems were so dark...he answered: > > > "Because I abhor cheap affirmation." Youch. > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > ===== > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net > > Salt River Review: > > "Ripples" @ > > Poetserv: > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > __________________________________________________ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of > > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com > > or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- > David Kellogg > Director, Writing in the Disciplines > Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing > Duke University > (919) 668-1615; FAX (919) 681-0637 > http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From halvard at earthlink.net Fri Dec 21 12:08:22 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 12:08:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tomas Kitchaid: Poet of Light In-Reply-To: <1e.206082d6.2954ab2e@cs.com> Message-ID: Sort of like Baltimore screen-painting, but with no way for air or light to get through. Hal No pets or dogs. --sign at the entrance to the gardens of St. Luke in the Fields, NYC Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html Sample description, broken into lines for convenience: In "Deer Creek Cottage," the world appears reborn in beauty, all the barrenness of the winter wood hidden by white. The delicate fawn, peering at the lights in the cottage windows, seems to join in the reverent mood. Perhaps even the animals of the forest can celebrate Christmas! Ick. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From snospx at silcom.com Fri Dec 21 12:36:46 2001 From: snospx at silcom.com (Barry Spacks) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 09:36:46 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Reflexive In-Reply-To: <151.6059860.2952a1fe@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011221093646.007beb00@snowcrest.net> At 09:07 PM 12/19/01 EST, Billie wrote: >I think it is like when the time that the doctor hits you in the knees. >Except you do it you do it to your own legs. POEM SAMPLING TWO LINES OF "BILLIE-SPEAK" I think it is like when the time that the doctor hits you in the knees And he hits you and he hits you with that hard rubber of his hammer Except you do it you do it to your own legs. Or when you pray Enough Already! but you're in a hurry (because of the pain) and you forgot to say please Or there's a distressingly ecclesiastical deflect in your grammar. But mainly it's like when the doctor hits you in the knees. I also think it's like when you start dying a lot from a little seiz- You're sure there must be a cure oh no what use to clamor Except you do it. You do it to your own legs, To your own head, your heart: pain sauced with pain, you're burning in your grease -- So? You gonna stop one Holy War with Cool It on your banner? I think it is like when the time that the doctor hits you in the knees, Or like Hell the Musical, or you're left out swinging in the breeze, Or you're standing tall to curse the whole shitty system but you get knocked down so you stammer; Except you do it, you do it to your own legs. Look, it's one big chop-up by advanced degrees, Shared by all, sure -- so it should help that I am him plus I am her? I think it's like when the time the doctor hits you in the knees Except you do it, you do it to your own legs. From wasanthony at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 12:47:22 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 09:47:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Reflexive In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20011221093646.007beb00@snowcrest.net> Message-ID: <20011221174722.79995.qmail@web12104.mail.yahoo.com> Oh yeah, we're far from done with this one. This is a bit on the "self-reflexive" conundrum, tainted slightly by Billie-mind. This Doubt ". . . you are a series of random episodes" - John Le Carre, The Constant Gardener My name is Trinpan Eponamae ("Trin-pan E-poe-na-may") and lately I have wondered if my name is not simply language, like "spinach," which is the sign in our minds for a tangy, leafy plant of dark green color, doused often with vinegar and downed by the can by a muscled man, a cartoon character. Does he think "spinach" looking in the mirror for himself or spinach, or the product of spinach and his escapades? Trinpan was my father's name. "Me Trinpan," the code in his brain must have said. Perhaps with my mother he grunted Trin-pan, Trin-pan, and it was always himself he meant. Perhaps he stopped and stripped the name from the trunk and limbs and history of a fluid mass blessed with sight, able to see itself beneath a sign: Trinpan? Eponamae was configured from several mothers - they never told me anything but I looked in the special village books - and none possessed the whole of the name. Together, Trinpan and many mothers made a thing. Looking out at the world, it wandered one night into the square. A woman with a name smiled back at it and a nameless man and woman named fell beneath a tree named "olive" because its fruit is round, because after the bite there is a soft pucker in the mouth. I, Trinpan Eponamae, writing now my name, know this because my arm was around another's waist and flowers from somewhere and hair against my face made me miss a step before the fountain. Six decades with Trinpan like a gown and Eponamae its belt, wrapping fussily this nothing. Or, with wine, some long accident of stars whose resemblance to my silhouette is flat against the sky. But look, it swings like the sign it is, blank on the other side this drunken, windless night. - Jim --- Barry Spacks wrote: > At 09:07 PM 12/19/01 EST, Billie wrote: > >I think it is like when the time that the doctor hits you in the > knees. > >Except you do it you do it to your own legs. > > POEM SAMPLING TWO LINES OF "BILLIE-SPEAK" > > I think it is like when the time that the doctor hits you in the > knees > And he hits you and he hits you with that hard rubber of his hammer > Except you do it you do it to your own legs. > > Or when you pray Enough Already! but you're in a hurry (because of > the pain) > and you forgot to say please > Or there's a distressingly ecclesiastical deflect in your grammar. > But mainly it's like when the doctor hits you in the knees. > > I also think it's like when you start dying a lot from a little seiz- > You're sure there must be a cure oh no what use to clamor > Except you do it. You do it to your own legs, > > To your own head, your heart: pain sauced with pain, you're > burning in your grease -- > So? You gonna stop one Holy War with Cool It on your banner? > I think it is like when the time that the doctor hits you in the > knees, > > Or like Hell the Musical, or you're left out swinging in the breeze, > Or you're standing tall to curse the whole shitty system but you > get knocked down so you stammer; > Except you do it, you do it to your own legs. > > Look, it's one big chop-up by advanced degrees, > Shared by all, sure -- so it should help that I am him plus I am her? > I think it's like when the time the doctor hits you in the knees > Except you do it, you do it to your own legs. > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com From tadrichards at prodigy.net Fri Dec 21 12:58:52 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 12:58:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Reflexive References: <3.0.5.32.20011221093646.007beb00@snowcrest.net> Message-ID: <049b01c18a49$27641280$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Barry...I love it. Tad Richards "A vicious mole of nature." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 4 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Barry Spacks" To: Sent: Friday, December 21, 2001 12:36 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Self-Reflexive > At 09:07 PM 12/19/01 EST, Billie wrote: > >I think it is like when the time that the doctor hits you in the knees. > >Except you do it you do it to your own legs. > > POEM SAMPLING TWO LINES OF "BILLIE-SPEAK" > > I think it is like when the time that the doctor hits you in the knees > And he hits you and he hits you with that hard rubber of his hammer > Except you do it you do it to your own legs. > > Or when you pray Enough Already! but you're in a hurry (because of the pain) > and you forgot to say please > Or there's a distressingly ecclesiastical deflect in your grammar. > But mainly it's like when the doctor hits you in the knees. > > I also think it's like when you start dying a lot from a little seiz- > You're sure there must be a cure oh no what use to clamor > Except you do it. You do it to your own legs, > > To your own head, your heart: pain sauced with pain, you're > burning in your grease -- > So? You gonna stop one Holy War with Cool It on your banner? > I think it is like when the time that the doctor hits you in the knees, > > Or like Hell the Musical, or you're left out swinging in the breeze, > Or you're standing tall to curse the whole shitty system but you > get knocked down so you stammer; > Except you do it, you do it to your own legs. > > Look, it's one big chop-up by advanced degrees, > Shared by all, sure -- so it should help that I am him plus I am her? > I think it's like when the time the doctor hits you in the knees > Except you do it, you do it to your own legs. > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From snospx at silcom.com Fri Dec 21 13:32:13 2001 From: snospx at silcom.com (Barry Spacks) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 10:32:13 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Reflexive In-Reply-To: <049b01c18a49$27641280$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> References: <3.0.5.32.20011221093646.007beb00@snowcrest.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011221103213.00842210@snowcrest.net> At 12:58 PM 12/21/01 -0500, Tad Richards wrote: >Barry...I love it. a pleasure to hear that, thanks -- nothing like a Tad of Billie-Speak with ginseng tea on a rainy day in Santa Barbara Barry From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Dec 21 04:31:49 2001 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 03:31:49 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Thomas Kitcbaid Message-ID: In "Deer Creek Cottage," > the world appears reborn > in beauty, all the barrenness > of the winter wood hidden > by white. The delicate fawn, > peering at the lights > in the cottage windows, seems > to join in the reverent mood. > Perhaps even the animals > of the forest can celebrate Christmas! I'm glad you said where this came from. Otherwise, I'd have thought it was a Robert Bly poem. Paul Lake From halvard at earthlink.net Fri Dec 21 16:02:31 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 16:02:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Just wondering . . . Message-ID: Just wondering if anyone here would submit to a journal that has, among its other guidelines, the following: Prose manuscripts can be any length but should not exceed 5000 words. Hal Please take your belongings with you. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Dec 21 17:42:57 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 17:42:57 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Thomas Kitcbaid Message-ID: <13.3d7bf0f.295514f1@cs.com> A Kinkade Cento The wind, too, has its work to do. The windmill harnesses the freedom of the wind to the ponderous purpose of the millstone. Fleecy clouds and delicate V's of geese trace the comings and goings of the wind. The redwoods guard the tranquility of a hidden bower where stream and trail and a grove of flaming bushes come together in perfect harmony. The setting sun is a masterful painter, touching leaf and water with a radiance that awakens unsuspected colors. A peaceful fertile farm is guarded by great sentinel mountain peaks. The scene is not all tranquility, there is drama and energy courtesy of a blazing golden sunset that seems almost to be a celestial spotlight, shining down from the heavens. The violet radiance colors the garden flowers, deepening their hues. Such glorious evenings as this lay a purple cloak upon the land... and every home becomes a castle. The heart has its special places: quiet retreats, fragrant with the sweet perfume of flowers, bathed in the romantic light of sunset, soothed by the music of a laughing brook and droning bees. Places made possible by the precious gift of love. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Dec 21 06:33:07 2001 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 05:33:07 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Thomas Kitcbaid In-Reply-To: <13.3d7bf0f.295514f1@cs.com> Message-ID: on 12/21/01 4:42 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com at Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > A Kinkade Cento > > The wind, too, has its work to do. > The windmill harnesses the freedom of the wind > to the ponderous purpose of the millstone. > Fleecy clouds and delicate V's of geese > trace the comings and goings of the wind. > The redwoods guard the tranquility > of a hidden bower where stream and trail > and a grove of flaming bushes come together > in perfect harmony. The setting sun > is a masterful painter, touching > leaf and water with a radiance > that awakens unsuspected colors. > A peaceful fertile farm is guarded > by great sentinel mountain peaks. > The scene is not all tranquility, > there is drama and energy > courtesy of a blazing golden sunset > that seems almost to be a celestial spotlight, > shining down from the heavens. > The violet radiance colors the garden flowers, > deepening their hues. Such glorious evenings > as this lay a purple cloak upon the land... > and every home becomes a castle. > The heart has its special places: quiet retreats, > fragrant with the sweet perfume of flowers, > bathed in the romantic light of sunset, > soothed by the music of a laughing brook > and droning bees. Places made possible > by the precious gift of love. > Come on, Sam, quit kidding around. Any idiot can tell that?s a Mary Oliver poem. Paul Lake -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wasanthony at yahoo.com Fri Dec 21 18:45:32 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 15:45:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Thomas Kitcbaid In-Reply-To: <13.3d7bf0f.295514f1@cs.com> Message-ID: <20011221234532.63649.qmail@web12101.mail.yahoo.com> Ah, yes. Would you like a box for that? - Jim --- Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > A Kinkade Cento > > The wind, too, has its work to do. > The windmill harnesses the freedom of the wind > to the ponderous purpose of the millstone. > Fleecy clouds and delicate V's of geese > trace the comings and goings of the wind. > The redwoods guard the tranquility > of a hidden bower where stream and trail > and a grove of flaming bushes come together > in perfect harmony. The setting sun > is a masterful painter, touching > leaf and water with a radiance > that awakens unsuspected colors. > A peaceful fertile farm is guarded > by great sentinel mountain peaks. > The scene is not all tranquility, > there is drama and energy > courtesy of a blazing golden sunset > that seems almost to be a celestial spotlight, > shining down from the heavens. > The violet radiance colors the garden flowers, > deepening their hues. Such glorious evenings > as this lay a purple cloak upon the land... > and every home becomes a castle. > The heart has its special places: quiet retreats, > fragrant with the sweet perfume of flowers, > bathed in the romantic light of sunset, > soothed by the music of a laughing brook > and droning bees. Places made possible > by the precious gift of love. > > ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From Cadaly at aol.com Fri Dec 21 18:51:39 2001 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2001 18:51:39 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re OXFORD ENCYCLOPEDIA OF AMERICAN LITERATURE Message-ID: <112.9ce69df.2955250b@aol.com> In a message dated 12/20/01 9:35:00 AM Pacific Standard Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > Laura (Riding) Jackson > Amy Lowell > A.R. Ammons > Mina Loy > Robert Bly > Richard Hugo > William Stafford > Cselaw Milosz > Vachel Lindsay > Archibald McLeish > Stanley Kunitz > Louise Bogan > May Swenson > > Dasheill Hammett > Cormac McCarthy > > Kenneth Burke > R.P. Blackmur "West Coast School" is a peculiar grab bag essay which will track "West" vs. East as well as "West Coast" and encompasses Jeffers, Rexroth, Everson, SF Renaissance, the Beats, Winters & students, LANGUAGE (often called West Coast School on its own) of both SF and LA flavors, but must also, I feel, mention other U of Washington folks, but must also update the art and performance poetry situations here. I am teaching California Literature next term, and will be able to use my syllabus-creating exercise for the essay. Right now, that looks like Chandler, West but DAY OF THE LOCUST, Moseley, Ursula LeGuin, Octavia Butler, Kathy Acker, maybe some of the OG lit (MONSTER) and two weeks on poetry like that mentioned above, but I am terribly short on Mexican/a and Asian American lit and SF novels. Some recommended ones were awful. Happy, merry, Catherine Daly cadaly at aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anthropophagy at anthropophagy.com Thu Dec 20 13:57:40 2001 From: anthropophagy at anthropophagy.com (anthropophagy.com, an online journal of text an image) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2001 13:57:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Anthropophagy.com Message-ID: Anthropophagy.com is offering new work by: Alfred Corn Chip Gladson Sharon Harper D. T. Harris Lyn Hillis Jordan Hoffman Dean Kostos Nicholas Lawrus Julia Pearson Morgan Roberts Elizabeth Routen Alex Weinstein Stephen Welch They are more than just flesh. Take a bite. http://www.anthropophagy.com From X2deuce at aol.com Sat Dec 22 13:57:05 2001 From: X2deuce at aol.com (X2deuce at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 13:57:05 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] best of the year Message-ID: <59.1527440b.29563181@aol.com> In my cataegory of the best poetry in the year my number one pick is Wiiliaim Shakesperaes Romeo and Juliette starting Leonardo Di caprio in 1999. The entire cast did a wonderful job with this poem in which Shakepeare co-screenwrote. He was one of the best uneducated poets in England (no Latin American or Greek ability). His wife got the best bed he had ever owned from him. In Romeo and Juliette Shakespere was well acted plus in addition he was not as boring as everybody had claimed. The difference in historcial language only makes it confused. If he lived today Shakespere would not even become a poet. When you see the flick, please notice how Leonard had made a good Romeo as a skilled actor. Shakes pere is the greatest forefather in my educated guess. Merry x-mass, Billie :) From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Dec 22 14:16:30 2001 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 19:16:30 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] best of the year References: <59.1527440b.29563181@aol.com> Message-ID: <008201c18b1d$f16ab820$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3> > His wife got the best bed he had ever owned Among the several nonsenses in this silly post ... Anne Hathaway got the +second best bed+ -- this is a cliche. Go away, Kent. Robin Hamilton From X2deuce at aol.com Sat Dec 22 15:39:52 2001 From: X2deuce at aol.com (X2deuce at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 15:39:52 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] best poetry Message-ID: <5f.1fc7b3f0.29564998@aol.com> <> Dear Robin, Thank you for the bed info. Shakespeer should have avoided a cliche. In conclusion do you think that Romeo and Juliette is based on the autobiographys of Anne and Williaim as you had claimed? From X2deuce at aol.com Sat Dec 22 15:54:29 2001 From: X2deuce at aol.com (X2deuce at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 15:54:29 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] romeo and julliette, a question Message-ID: Does the gang think that Roneo and Julliette has too sad an ending to be down to earth? Luv Billie. From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Dec 22 16:12:12 2001 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 21:12:12 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] best poetry References: <5f.1fc7b3f0.29564998@aol.com> Message-ID: <00ba01c18b2d$6027e120$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3> > In > conclusion do you think that Romeo and Juliette is based on the > autobiographys of Anne and Williaim as you had claimed? I didn't claim that (please read my posts with more care) but perhaps it would do you (he/she) good to read D.B.W . Lewis (the Catholic satirist, not the Apes of God man). The classic text would probably be +At the Sign of the Blue Moon+. I'm sure you could procure this if you +tried+. On ebay. The phrase which immediately springs to mind is, "Get a Life". Robin. From snospx at silcom.com Sat Dec 22 16:26:23 2001 From: snospx at silcom.com (Barry Spacks) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 13:26:23 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] romeo and julliette, an answer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011222132623.007c6b20@snowcrest.net> At 03:54 PM 12/22/01 EST, Luv Billie wrote: >Does the gang think that Roneo and Julliette has too sad an ending to be down >to earth? I think Bill is saying here ok Shakes Pierre made script credit but it's two sad, they could get Tom Sophead in there or somebody have a Dutch X. Machine to destrife the Caps & the Mons or why not an anecdote to the poison like they want for Amtracks? especially now in the Holidays luv-Barry (somebody stop me!) From X2deuce at aol.com Sat Dec 22 16:37:53 2001 From: X2deuce at aol.com (X2deuce at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 16:37:53 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] best poetry Message-ID: <134.6ad8683.29565731@aol.com> In a message dated 12/22/01 4:16:12 PM, robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: << read D.B.W . Lewis (the Catholic satirist, not the Apes of God man).The classic text would probably be +At the Sign of the Blue Moon+.I'm sure you could procure this if you +tried+.On ebay.The phrase which immediately springs to mind is, "Get a Life". >> I will read the satire of the Planet of the apes. I tried the phrase get a life on e-bay and ordered the video to answer my own quiz. Now number 2. Did Shakespere borrow the plots he used in every poem he needed to write by somebody else? For example Julies Cesar? From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Dec 22 16:55:08 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 16:55:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Thomas McGrath, "The Enemy" Message-ID: The Enemy He is there, somewhere . . . high up over the pass We must travel in air thinner than spirit, Bloodless, structure of cold fog. His rifle Gleams. He waits as we cross the ridge. Son, you will see him Sometimes: at the foot of the bed, grieving, A wavering presence in your fever-dream. Or seeming to grieve. Wearing the mask of your father. --Thomas McGrath Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Dec 22 17:18:45 2001 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 17:18:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] romeo and julliette, an answer References: <3.0.5.32.20011222132623.007c6b20@snowcrest.net> Message-ID: <001901c18b36$9fcd20c0$cf04fea9@y3b2r8> > I think Bill is saying here ok Shakes Pierre made script credit but > it's two sad, they could get Tom Sophead in there > or somebody have a Dutch X. Machine to destrife the Caps > & the Mons or why not an anecdote to the poison like > they want for Amtracks? especially now in the Holidays > > luv-Barry (somebody stop me!) Not unitl you stoff makin more scends than some pipfulls in this gruip. Which i'nt y Im posting this whish is in my capcity as Shakespurr authority: his 2rd-bestest bed was the one he really liked the best, so your verry wrong, Robin. He gave it to his wif Mary Ardent to support the forests in WWI. bobbie From X2deuce at aol.com Sat Dec 22 17:24:12 2001 From: X2deuce at aol.com (X2deuce at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 17:24:12 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] thanx robin!! Message-ID: Dear Robin, You sound like a person who wants to have a very good opinion of themself. So do I too. Maybe you are undereducated and want to improve. Then you looked on ebay for all of the enjoyable books that people told you to. Therefore you can be a role model for other like myself. Also, to conclude, everything about the bed was very intersesting. luv billie From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Dec 22 17:56:40 2001 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 22:56:40 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] best poetry References: <134.6ad8683.29565731@aol.com> Message-ID: <00fd01c18b3c$2f447a00$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3> > In a message dated 12/22/01 4:16:12 PM, robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com writes: > > << read D.B.W . Lewis (the Catholic satirist, not > > the Apes of God man).The classic text would probably be +At the Sign of the > Blue Moon+.I'm sure you could procure this if you +tried+.On ebay.The phrase > which immediately springs to mind is, "Get a Life". >> > > I will read the satire of the Planet of the apes. I tried the phrase get a > life on e-bay and ordered the video to answer my own quiz. Look, sweetheart, you're about twenty years adrift on this. I'm not talking about Pierre Boule's cross-dressed chimps .. > Now number 2. > Did Shakespere borrow the plots he used in every poem he needed to write by > somebody else? For example Julies Cesar? God (as Dorothy Parker said): "Constant Reader Pucked Up." I mean, REALLY ... Look. Kenty boy, +PLEASE+ ... Robin c > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Dec 22 18:15:46 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 18:15:46 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] best poetry Message-ID: In a message dated 12/22/2001 3:39:04 PM Central Standard Time, X2deuce at aol.com writes: > Did Shakespere borrow the plots he used in every poem he needed to write by > somebody else? For example Julies Cesar? > > Shaxberd's pilots were sometime well recieved. But they showd them in the sumer when no body much was watching. Thats becuase the Glob Theater had no roof an it rained alot in Lindon in the summary. Some times a pilot summery is beter than the reel thing, like in Corey O'Lanus, a play I have never got thru. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From X2deuce at aol.com Sat Dec 22 18:18:38 2001 From: X2deuce at aol.com (X2deuce at aol.com) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 18:18:38 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] number 3 Message-ID: <60.186776f4.29566ece@aol.com> > Now number 2. > Did Shakespere borrow the plots he used in every poem he needed to write by > somebody else? For example Julies Cesar? God (as Dorothy Parker said): "Constant Reader Pucked Up." I mean, REALLY ... Robin>> I know, that is the toughest question (number 2 on my quiz)!!!! But do not be embarassed by it Robin. Look it up!! I know you can succed. Here is number 3. Is Hamlet really psycho or is it a plan all along from the ghost? Also, why did the uncle put poison in the kings eardrum if Hamlet isnt crazy? PS. I don't think hamlets very good relationship with his mother even helped him to cure himself. True or False??? luv billie From X2deuce at aol.com Sun Dec 23 00:21:33 2001 From: X2deuce at aol.com (X2deuce at aol.com) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 00:21:33 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Robin hamilton is the best Message-ID: <149.6ca5e4c.2956c3dd@aol.com> For me, I have learned a lot of info from Robin in concerning Shakespere. According to her the second bed is the biggest mystery of all times. therefore I think robin is saying that material belongs are not the real meaning of christmass. Shakespere beleived in this. She would say it is on ebay to back it up. Buy the book by the right person. get a life and be the best that you can be according to your potential. Read a satire about crossdressing. It is up to you. In the movie Shakespere is in Love Robin would say that you had to back it up with facts. She beleives you can do it if you try to. Plus I think she has a crush on Roneo the exact same thing as Kent-boy. I think he loves her too if J or james is correct. She is playing hard to get, but everything will turn out. Finally Pierre Boulez mad a mistake when he wrote about the existinse of any chimps in Shakespere. From snospx at silcom.com Sun Dec 23 00:54:51 2001 From: snospx at silcom.com (Barry Spacks) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2001 21:54:51 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Robin hamilton is the best In-Reply-To: <149.6ca5e4c.2956c3dd@aol.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011222215451.007c1100@snowcrest.net> At 12:21 AM 12/23/01 EST, you wrote: >Plus I think she has a crush on Roneo Billie, Billie, so it comes to this? crushed Roneo? I knew Roneo, Billie. You're no Jaack Roneo. From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sun Dec 23 00:39:47 2001 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 05:39:47 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] number 3 References: <60.186776f4.29566ece@aol.com> Message-ID: <012901c18b77$a35dff20$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3> > > Now number 2. > > Did Shakespere borrow the plots he used in every poem he needed to write > by > > somebody else? For example Julies Cesar? > > God (as Dorothy Parker said): "Constant Reader Pucked Up." > > I mean, REALLY ... > > Robin>> > > I know, that is the toughest question (number 2 on my quiz)!!!! But do not > be embarassed by it Robin. Look it up!! Well (to treat this trash more seriously than it deserves) howabout of the 36 Merry Wives and LLL? > I know you can succed. Here is > number 3. Is Hamlet really psycho or is it a plan all along from the ghost? Hamlet isn't crazy. Hamlet doesn't even delay. The Seven-Soliloquies version is a result of cramming the Q and F texts into one basket. Your scholarship is as outdated as your "wit". Robin From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sun Dec 23 02:01:49 2001 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 07:01:49 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Robin hamilton is the best References: <149.6ca5e4c.2956c3dd@aol.com> Message-ID: <015301c18b80$80ad4b80$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3> > For me, I have learned a lot of info from Robin in concerning Shakespere. > According to her I am (as you perfectly well know, as if it matters) a he, not a she. [... despite once having been characterised as the only lesbian poet in the entire history of Scottish literature.] > Read a satire about > crossdressing. Two Gents, AYLI , MV, TN, Cimbles. Makes five out of 36. NOT a high scoring rate. Enough with the cliches. > mistake when he wrote about the existinse of any chimps in Shakespere. My typewriter is bigger than your typewriter ... Robin (No bed for bacon) [Well, at least you got cross-dressing right. Wasn't till post-1660 that it came to be called 'the breeches part'.] MOTTO FOR THE DAY: Try harder {Ooops -- sorry, six. Missed Fastolf in The Merry Wives. But then again, it's an eminently forgetable play.} From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Sun Dec 23 10:02:02 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 07:02:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] number 3 Message-ID: <20011223150202.34F653ED3@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Sun Dec 23 10:04:32 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 07:04:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Robin hamilton is the best Message-ID: <20011223150432.EBDD22756@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From snospx at silcom.com Sun Dec 23 10:45:38 2001 From: snospx at silcom.com (Barry Spacks) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 07:45:38 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Robin hamilton is the best In-Reply-To: <20011223150432.EBDD22756@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20011223074538.007c55d0@snowcrest.net> At 07:04 AM 12/23/01 -0800, BobC wrote: >Barry, > >You are taking this "billie" fellow way too humorously. > It's like a virus, Bob, I'm lost, it's an illness, have pity, I'll go to meetings: "My name is Barry. I'm a Billieholic." (has anyone ever been the same after reading Huck Finn?) luv-Barrie From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sun Dec 23 10:45:14 2001 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 15:45:14 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] number 3 References: <20011223150202.34F653ED3@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <019f01c18bca$d69aac00$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3> Bob: > You are taking this "billie" fellow way too seriously! Just delete. > > BobC Normally I would, but I'm undergoing a severely bad-hair month, therefore looking for whomever I can devour. Thuswise, putting the boot into Kent Johnson's latest cyberidentity beats (just barely) kicking the wall. Robin From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sun Dec 23 15:19:57 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 15:19:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] best poetry References: Message-ID: <017301c18bef$31a005e0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Sam -- Cory goes home and shots himself. I know B-cuz this is a famous peom by Paul Simmon. Tad Richards "A vicious mole of nature." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 4 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2001 6:15 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] best poetry In a message dated 12/22/2001 3:39:04 PM Central Standard Time, X2deuce at aol.com writes: Did Shakespere borrow the plots he used in every poem he needed to write by somebody else? For example Julies Cesar? Shaxberd's pilots were sometime well recieved. But they showd them in the sumer when no body much was watching. Thats becuase the Glob Theater had no roof an it rained alot in Lindon in the summary. Some times a pilot summery is beter than the reel thing, like in Corey O'Lanus, a play I have never got thru. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmcvay at patriot.net Sun Dec 23 16:51:13 2001 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 16:51:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] best poetry In-Reply-To: <00fd01c18b3c$2f447a00$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3> Message-ID: > God (as Dorothy Parker said): "Constant Reader Pucked Up." > Look! It's a bird! It's a plane! It's Hideously Pedantic Woman!... delivering her Yuletide message that Parker actually said "Tonstant Weader fwowed up," in reviewing _The House at Pooh Corner._ This message brought to you by the Society for the Overeducated From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sun Dec 23 18:16:24 2001 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 23:16:24 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] best poetry References: Message-ID: <0c7a01c18c0d$87ae5fe0$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3> > > God (as Dorothy Parker said): "Constant Reader Pucked Up." > > > Look! It's a bird! It's a plane! It's Hideously Pedantic Woman!... > delivering her Yuletide message that Parker actually said "Tonstant Weader > fwowed up," in reviewing _The House at Pooh Corner._ > > This message brought to you by the Society for the Overeducated Think the original (Algonquin) version was, "Constant Reader Threw Up." Dot was (am I right?) righting a syndacated clom for the Noo Yorker. Her name of scratch was "Constant Reader". [So your "Tonstant Weader" revison is an orrible example of just exactly why Dot puked violently into her program.] And she wasn't reviewing Pooh but a Broadway Dramatisation of Pooh. [Actually, I may be totally wrong on this -- look it up tomorrow.] {sorry to be so pedantic} Robin Roy McGregor Campbell [MALE!!! MAIL!!! MEEP ....] From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sun Dec 23 19:39:12 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2001 19:39:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] best poetry References: <0c7a01c18c0d$87ae5fe0$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3> Message-ID: <020301c18c13$68b45300$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> I think Gwyn is right...it was the book itself, which Parker hated. And I think -- oh Lord, super-Pedant! --that you'll find the truth lies somewhere in between. Her column was signed "Constant Reader," but for the purpose of this review -- and here relying on memory also -- she used the variation "Tonstant Reader" (not "Weader," because she was saving the "w" for "fwowed"). Tad Richards "A vicious mole of nature." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 4 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Hamilton" To: Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2001 6:16 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] best poetry > > > God (as Dorothy Parker said): "Constant Reader Pucked Up." > > > > > Look! It's a bird! It's a plane! It's Hideously Pedantic Woman!... > > delivering her Yuletide message that Parker actually said "Tonstant Weader > > fwowed up," in reviewing _The House at Pooh Corner._ > > > > This message brought to you by the Society for the Overeducated > > Think the original (Algonquin) version was, "Constant Reader Threw Up." > > Dot was (am I right?) righting a syndacated clom for the Noo Yorker. Her > name of scratch was "Constant Reader". > > [So your "Tonstant Weader" revison is an orrible example of just exactly why > Dot puked violently into her program.] > > And she wasn't reviewing Pooh but a Broadway Dramatisation of Pooh. > > [Actually, I may be totally wrong on this -- look it up tomorrow.] > > {sorry to be so pedantic} > > Robin Roy McGregor Campbell > > [MALE!!! MAIL!!! MEEP ....] > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sun Dec 23 20:51:30 2001 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 01:51:30 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] best poetry References: <0c7a01c18c0d$87ae5fe0$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3> <020301c18c13$68b45300$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: <0c9601c18c1d$950a3960$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3> Right. I managed to get this (surprise, surprise) TOTALLY wrong. Page reference is to _The Collected [or Portable] Dorothy Parker_ (Penguin and Viking, various dates. 1944 on.) p. 518 (review published 20/10/28) concludes: "And it is that word, 'hummy,' my darlings, that marks the first place in _The House at Pooh Corner_ at which Tonstant Weader Fwowed up." Yup. Review of the book, not a play. And "Tonstant Weader" not Constant Reader. Think I'll take Dot's advice (p. 99) Gas smells awful; You might as well live. Robin (apologetically) From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Dec 24 10:59:17 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2001 10:59:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Howard Nemerov, "Because You Asked . . ." Message-ID: Because You Asked about the Line between Prose and Poetry Sparrows were feeding in a freezing drizzle That while you watched turned into pieces of snow Riding a gradient invisible From silver aslant to random, white, and slow. There came a moment that you couldn't tell. And then they clearly flew instead of fell. --Howard Nemerov Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Dec 25 09:10:45 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 09:10:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Season's greetings Message-ID: Best wishes for the holidays and the New Year. Hal and Lynda From wjbat at conncoll.edu Tue Dec 25 22:57:43 2001 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 19:57:43 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Season's greetings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011225195743.024584@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> A WRITER of Fables was passing through a lonely forest when he met a Fortune. Greatly alarmed, he tried to climb a tree, but the Fortune pulled him down and bestowed itself upon him with cruel persistence. "Why did you try to run away?" said the Fortune, when his struggles had ceased and his screams were stilled. "Why do you glare at me so inhospitably?" "I don't know what you are," replied the Writer of Fables, deeply disturbed. "I am wealth; I am respectability," the Fortune explained; "I am elegant houses, a yacht, and a clean shirt every day. I am leisure, I am travel, wine, a shiny hat, and an unshiny coat. I am enough to eat." "All right," said the Writer of Fables, in a whisper; "but for goodness' sake speak lower." "Why so?" the Fortune asked, in surprise. "So as not to wake me," replied the Writer of Fables, a holy calm brooding upon his beautiful face. From wjbat at conncoll.edu Tue Dec 25 23:02:57 2001 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2001 20:02:57 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Season's greetings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011225200257.025729@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> More greetings, with apologies: I left Ambrose Bierce's venerable name off "Fortune and the Fabulist." It's his and no other's, obviously. Wendy, with blessings to all, even to the-one-with-too-much-time-on-his-hands From JforJames at aol.com Thu Dec 27 18:01:17 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 18:01:17 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Leopold Senghor obit Message-ID: <13d.6e04250.295d023d@aol.com> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011220/wl/obit_senghor_7.html From X2deuce at aol.com Thu Dec 27 21:19:23 2001 From: X2deuce at aol.com (X2deuce at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 21:19:23 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] season's greetings Message-ID: Happy Merry Holidays, Luv to everysinglebody including Robin who is a heshe is a mistake. I think heshe is a college graduate that impressed my moms, or did some college (2+ years). Heshe beleives that Shesperes did so many cliches. For example Hamlet. Plus there are to many solos in Hamlet. It made Dorothy Parker more exasperated in 1944 according to IT. She spelled something in many ways that everybody was looking up. It was very interseting to everybody that couldnt wait to find out about it. CONSTANT> It is in a Penguin accordig to Robin. Sam agrees with everybody. J or james says read the top 10. Gwyn is "aboys name," he exasperated. Plus Robin is apretty birds boys name on top of that. Heshe is so overeducated for a college man (2+ years) and high up in poetry. Everything you can say abou t Shakesperes will be wrong. No knowhow according to himher. Heshe is well known for this and even famous. You ARE ALL SPECAIAL AND VERY VERY SMARTER THAN ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!CONGRATS Luv Billie. From gmcvay at patriot.net Fri Dec 28 00:15:18 2001 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 00:15:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] season's greetings In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>>No knowhow according to himher. Heshe is well known for this and even famous.<<< James Joyce! Quit bugging people. From MerwinDame at aol.com Fri Dec 28 11:26:06 2001 From: MerwinDame at aol.com (MerwinDame at aol.com) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 11:26:06 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] art in a time of terror Message-ID: <6e.15528d30.295df71e@aol.com> Ruth Padel: Art in a time of terror 27 December 2001Special report The shadow of terror: Three months on http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=111722 "Art should not console," said Iris Murdoch austerely. But sometimes it's the only thing that can. One thing 11 September broke was a pattern in the ways we see ourselves in the world. And when such perceptions are challenged is when we most need pattern-making in the form of art. We need existing great art, and to urgently find new meaning in structures already familiar to us; we also need the structure of art made after the trauma to confront it, to explain it for us. Some arts can confront it directly. "We are not healers or protectors, merely artists," said Tom Hanks at the "Tribute to Heroes" telethon concert. But Bruce Springsteen sang a new song, "My City of Ruins", for "our fallen brothers and sisters", ending it with "Rise up, rise up". It sounds corny, but it worked. "I wanted to hug the guy," says Rick de Yampert, a journalist. For art does heal. The art of presenting audiences with knowledge that is terrible to accept, of making us able to survive horror by structuring it in a particular way, is the art of tragedy. And Aristotle's metaphor for tragedy's method was catharsis. Patsy Rodenburg, voice trainer at the National Theatre, has just taught a Shakespeare-speaking course in New York. "There's a yearning there now for profound work. You can go to the great plays and not feel so lonely. I did Richard III and Julius Caesar; plays full of envy, grief, murder on an unbelievable scale, about what they were facing themselves. They got the power of it: Richard the murderer, 'hell's black intelligencer'. It's comforting that it's happened before, that Shakespeare structured the words for us." After 11 September, the United States also embraced WH Auden's poem on the declaration of war, "September 1, 1939". It was read on national radio. "Auden muses on Manhattan skyscrapers as symbols of modern power, and the isolation of America's consumer culture," says poet Dana Gioia, who recited it at a reading on 12 September. "'The unmentionable odour of death/ Offends the September night...' ? they gasped as I read." "There's a profound thirst for poetry now," says Alice Quinn, The New Yorker 's poetry editor. "Anthologies of poems that speak to the time are coming out; the Poetry Society of America organised a reading at Cooper Union, where Lincoln gave his most stirring speeches; 1,200 people came." Chip McGrath, the books editor of The New York Times, sees a different cultural shift. "Books on warfare, Islam, Afghanistan, are jumping off the shelves. Otherwise, it's cookery. Hardly any fiction, to my surprise." In Britain, the bestseller lists have been reconquered by Harry Potter and the celebrity chefs. In the US, however, another kind of book has recently been appearing on the best-seller lists: books with titles like New York September 11 (Magnum Photographers), September 11: A Testimony (Reuters), September 11th 2001: New York Attacked (New York Magazine) ? dozens upon dozens of coffee-table books, of which the book-buying public cannot get enough. "Images are crucial to our understanding," said Thomas Hoepker, vice-president of Magnum in New York. "People want to have something they can keep. TV images are powerful, but fleeting." "Mmm," said a friend of mine. "Isn't there a thin line between consoling and cashing in?" Obviously, there will be some cashing in. No doubt the books and films have already started ? Woody Allen said the events would be "fair game" for directors. Some will be exploitative; others will be necessary art ? in the sense that Gerard Manley Hopkins found it necessary in 1875 to write a poem on the death of five nuns in a blazing ship. "The Wreck of the Deutschland" became his masterpiece, but that's not the point: he had to write it. The Art Museum in Yad Vashem, Jerusalem's memorial-museum for the Holocaust, contains sketches of gas chimneys, barbed wire and scalped hair, made in death camps by people for whom art was a necessity: "driven to it by what they saw," say the museum's curators. Bruno Bettelheim, a death-camp survivor, said you shouldn't try to understand horror, just stop it happening again. The critic Theodor Adorno said there could be no poetry after Auschwitz. But there had to be. To go on, we have to find a pattern in our responses to trauma. Audiences need the questioning clarity of art; artists need to create new structures from pain. "Cashing in" will depend on the artist's integrity. On 11 September, 11 members of the photographic agency Magnum were in Manhattan: all took photographs. What would 11 top photographers have done in New York but take photos? And now the book has come out. "If something upsets me," the photographer Helmut Newton told me once, "I get my camera out. I believe that if a photographer has a camera between him and horror, he can face anything." "In a peculiar way, for artists, this is the best as well as the worst of times," the theatre director Deborah Warner said recently. "We have a terrible thing to draw on. There'll be new energy. My feeling after 11 September was to return to the theatre. It's a very safe place." That's the response to Tom Hanks. Art does protect and heal. Sometimes it's the only place where you feel safe. On 11 September, however, art was made unsafe, too. Art, under attack along with everything else, was abused; even stolen. When video-artist John Maybury saw the second tower hit, he recognised an aspect of his art: "What I was seeing was artfully done. The first plane got our attention, so we'd look at the second." The planes were a video-installation, with the world as audience. The music of Karlheinz Stockhausen, the 73-year-old experimental composer, has long incorporated elements of theatre and spectacle. He has followed Duchampian aesthetics, searching for metaphorically violent ways of thrusting image and sound together. His 1994 "Helicopter Quartet", based on a dream he had of "towers of television screens", thousands of outdoor spectators and musicians in flying helicopters, was creepily prescient of 11 September as a live spectacle. Inevitably, he responded to the attack in those terms, as "the greatest work of art there's ever been. That people rehearse like crazy for 10 years, totally fanatically for one concert, and then die! Compared to this, we are nothing as composers." Faced with fury and outrage, Stockhausen later said he was referring to the "Luciferian aspect of art", but his comments also show that late Modernist ideas of art, privileging spectacle and "happening", are stale; that they must change. Different arts will change differently as they move beyond 11 September. They will change because that day was destruction, the antithesis of creativity. And making something new, good, bearable out of destruction is what creativity is for. The fall of Troy, of the "towers of Ilium", is tragedy's first metaphor of human fragility ? and changes in design are obvious. "More emphasis on safety," says Frank Gehry, architect of Bilbao's Guggenheim Museum. "More technical discussion of how to get people out of tall buildings fast," says Cecil Balmond, the designer-engineer of iconic buildings throughout the world. Others may take longer. Art offers safety because it takes risks. Nicola Lane, a London artist whose work is currently touring in the Arts Council exhibition Adorn, Equip, says she felt guilty about taking a magnifying glass to photos of people jumping from the towers, "but I had to know the shape of their bodies in the air". That's her job. Art has to risk knowing appalling things, to draw constructive conclusions from them. But risks can backfire. The earliest Greek tragedy we know of was written when Persia was the global super-power. In 499BC, Athens helped the Eastern Greeks rebel against Persia: in revenge, Persia burnt the Eastern Greek city of Miletus, massacring men and enslaving women. In 493 BC, the Athenian dramatist Phrynichus wrote a play, The Sack of Miletus, and was fined 1,000 drachmas for "reminding the Athenians of their own misfortunes". After 11 September, the riskiest art may be fiction. Novelists can't ignore 11 September. If they describe it poorly, they kill their novel; do it well, and they unbalance it and risk accusations of cashing in on the tragedy. "Such a huge thing bulldozes through any narrative," says Deborah Moggach, author of Tulip Fever. "You'd have to acknowledge it. Awareness of it affects everything, but if you mention it explicitly readers may feel it's dragged in for effect." Many novelists have been unable to work recently. "Shock, grief, aftershock: one's reactions were extreme and changed every day," says Moggach. "It was difficult to concentrate." "Novelists respond in oblique ways, mediated by imagination," says Michele Roberts, author of The Looking Glass. "That takes time." She was in the middle of a city novel about suffering, death, and compassion, set in August 2001. "Now there'll be more death, and more compassion, " she says. "September 11 is affecting novelists who draw inspiration from the world outside, rather than the world within," says Amanda Craig, author of In a Dark Wood. "It brought home to us how our cultures are bound up with each other, and made the American psyche more permeable by the rest of the world. My American characters have become more complex, anguished, conscious of being hostages of fortune." The novel is the art of the story, and stories outlast everything. What are Troy and Persia now? A handful of ruins ? and stories. The story of 11 September will be told when photographs are dust, as long as there are people to tell it. But though we live in a story-shaped world, we don't know what shape it will take next. Osama bin Laden knew America's story ? our modern Athens, our talismanic culture ? inside-out. It's in that narrative of invincibility that the biggest break has been made. No one knows how permanent this deliberate break will be. For Americans to take control of their story again, they have to understand it from other people's point of view. There are always two sides to the story in a divorce, just as there was in the Crusades ? that episode of international piracy remembered in the West in Turkish operetta characters, in pubs called The Saracen's Head and in Bush's unfortunate rhetoric. Bin Laden must have smiled when he heard Bush utter that word which, for millions of people living in conditions other than ours, is so capable of arousing memories of outrage. With 19 plastic Stanley knives( box cutters), bin Laden became Saladin, energising the story of the Crusades as seen through non-Western eyes. Looking at one's own story from a different side is a prime characteristic of Western art, distinguishing Homer from, say, contemporary Assyria. Homer shows the pity of war from both the Greek and Trojan points of view. The earliest surviving tragedy, by Aeschylus, showed Athens's final victory over Persia as a tragedy for Persia. John Buchan, a master of narrative, knew the stories in other nations' heads. "We have laughed at the jihad," says Walter Bullivant in Greenmantle, published in 1916. "But there is a jihad preparing. The question is, how?" ? words the CIA might have attended to in 1996. The day after the bombing of Hiroshima, a New York Times editorial declared, "Civilization and humanity can now survive only if there is a revolution in mankind's political thinking." What happened to that revolution? Is technology the only way we've advanced since 499BC? What about culture? Different ethnic groups live all over US cities, but no one programmes sympathetic knowledge of other peoples' stories into our education. In Yad Vashem, Jewish schoolchildren are shown the Holocaust story: why aren't Palestinian children, too? And where's the museum of Palestinian suffering, where Jewish kids can be taken to learn the stories of people they'll grow up beside? Why is the history of Islam ? and the treasures it gave the West when we were still medieval thugs and warlords ? not on the national curriculum for all children in countries with Muslim populations? The art that helps us understand our own tragedies has to be big enough, like that of Homer, to sympathise with the suffering of people who cause them. We won't get rid of terrorism ? or the support for it now preparing in the hearts and memories of thousands of mutilated, bereaved, dispossessed people ? without understanding our story and theirs, from their point of view. For ? as Gandalf says in The Lord of the Rings ? "Stories do not end, we are all still part of the same story." Troy and Greece, Athens and Persia, Saladin and the Lionheart, New York and Tora Bora; we are part of the same pattern still. Can't we ever break it for good? ? 2001 Independent Digital (UK) Ltd ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From DICK at watson.ibm.com Fri Dec 28 11:32:53 2001 From: DICK at watson.ibm.com (DICK at watson.ibm.com) Date: Fri, 28 Dec 01 11:32:53 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Billie talk Message-ID: <200112281636.fBSGaGn40702@sp1n293en1.watson.ibm.com> >>>>>No knowhow according to himher. Heshe is well known for this and even >>famous.<<< >> >>James Joyce! Quit bugging people. >> Seconded. Richard From JforJames at aol.com Sat Dec 29 21:32:11 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 21:32:11 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Leopold Sedar Senghor poem Message-ID: <127.99b19f5.295fd6ab@aol.com> We Delighted, My Friend We delighted, my friend, in an African presence: Furniture from Guinea and the Congo, Heavy and polished, dark and light. Primitive and pure masks on distant walls yet so near. Taborets of honor for the hereditary hosts, The princes from the high country. Wild and proud perfumes from the thick tresses of silence, Cushions of shadow and leisure like quiet wells running. Eternal words and the distant alternating chant As in the loin cloth from the Sudan. But then the friendly light of your blue kindness Will soften the obsession of this presence in Black, white, and red, O red like the soil of Africa. From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Dec 30 13:11:14 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 13:11:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Brenda Hillman, "Styrofoam Cup" Message-ID: Styrofoam Cup thou still unravished thou thou, thou bride thou unstill, thou unravished unbride unthou unbride --Brenda Hillman Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html From wasanthony at yahoo.com Sun Dec 30 13:34:09 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 10:34:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Brenda Hillman, "Styrofoam Cup" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20011230183409.18192.qmail@web12105.mail.yahoo.com> I unthank thou for this this this thou contra fushia. - Jim, still holding his breakfast --- Halvard Johnson wrote: > Styrofoam Cup > > > thou still unravished thou > > thou, thou bride > > > thou unstill, > > thou unravished unbride > > > unthou unbride > > > --Brenda Hillman > > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send your FREE holiday greetings online! http://greetings.yahoo.com From X2deuce at aol.com Sun Dec 30 15:00:26 2001 From: X2deuce at aol.com (X2deuce at aol.com) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 15:00:26 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] the jew in modern poetry (1) Message-ID: <12c.a1327e8.2960cc5a@aol.com> The Jew in Modern Poetry They were sitting, just before the rain broke, under a Japanese pine tree on the grounds of St. Elizabeth?s Hospital: Ezra and Dorothy Pound, and twelve or thirteen others?mostly younger writers?the core of whom (those who?d been visiting Pound regularly throughout the summer) comprising, on most weekends, something a little bizarrely like a seminar at a pastoral academy. ?JEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJE . . . ,? Pound was saying. He leaned against the trunk of the pine tree dressed in snow-white as if for tennis, shoes off, shirt unbuttoned. Perhaps he was in Hell. Every night?each time as vividly real and equally as painful as the last?the Hindu god Vishnu broke open his head and licked out his brain with a thirteen inch tongue: . . . heart, intestines, liver, pancreas, turned out, nauseatingly, onto the floor, the meat peeled off his body like a tight glove. ?. . . WJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJE WJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJ EWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJ. . . .? A hot, white light glared in the black green of the trees. Carefully, Dorothy poured tea for Pound?s visitors. In the slightly concave planes of the teapot, the reflection of her arm blended with the pool of colors mirroring the lawn and sky. The tea struck the bottom of each cup with a faint tinkling sound?like needles and nails?and then seemed to flow backwards into the pot, a translucent, twisted column of weightless copper. From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sun Dec 30 17:01:05 2001 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 22:01:05 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] the jew in modern poetry (1) References: <12c.a1327e8.2960cc5a@aol.com> Message-ID: <0f8b01c1917d$800475c0$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3> From: ?JEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJEWJE . . . ,? Pound was saying. ... except, of course, that just then that's the +last+ thing he'd have done, as by then he'd developed this theory that there were only so many words you were allowed to speak before you died. So in St Elizabeth's, he was +parsimonious+ with words. He may have been cracked, but at least he wasn't boring. Robin From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sun Dec 30 17:36:50 2001 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 22:36:50 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] season's greetings References: Message-ID: <0fbc01c19182$ea0d4a00$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3> From: > Heshe beleives that Shesperes did so many cliches. For example > Hamlet. Plus there are to many solos in Hamlet. Actually (which is probably giving the comment more weight than it's worth), to decode this crab-basket of juvenile porridge, there are seven soliloquies in the +Composite+ _Hamlet_. The maximum in either Q1, Q2, or F is five. (I may have the figures wrong -- haven't got time to check. Got this essay to write for Psy101 before I pick my dress for the Junior Prom.) Whatever, The Delaying Hamlet is a post-18thC construct. Sorreeeee .... [Sheesh, at least get your apology for scholarship +half+ right ...] Robin From JforJames at aol.com Mon Dec 31 11:05:25 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 11:05:25 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Longfellow's The Fire of Drift-Wood Message-ID: <6f.203012b1.2961e6c5@aol.com> THE FIRE OF DRIFT-WOOD We sat within the farm-house old, Whose windows, looking o'er the bay, Gave to the sea-breeze, damp and cold An easy entrance, night and day. Not far away we saw the port, The strange, old-fashioned, silent town, The lighthouse, the dismantled fort, The wooden houses, quaint and brown. We sat and talked until the night, Descending, filled the little room; Our faces faded from the sight, Our voices only broke the gloom, We spoke of many a vanished scene, Of what we once had thought and said, Of what had been, and might have been, And who was changed, and who was dead; And all that fills the hearts of friends, When first they feel, with secret pain, There lives henceforth have separate ends, And never can be one again; The first slight swerving of the heart, That words are powerless to express, And leave it still unsaid in part, Or say it in too great excess. The very tones in which we spake Had something strange, I could but mark; The leaves of memory seemed to make A mournful rustling in the dark. Oft died the words upon our lips, As suddenly, from out the fire Built of the wreck of stranded ships, The flames would leap and then expire, And, as their splendor flashed and failed, We thought of wrecks upon the main, Of ships dismasted, that were hailed And sent no answer back again. The windows, rattling in their frames, The ocean, roaring up the beach, The gusty blast, the bickering flames, All mingled vaguely in our speech; Until they made themselves a part Of fancies floating through the brain, The long-lost ventures of the heart, That send no answers back again. O flames that glowed! O heart that yearned! They were indeed too much akin, The drift-wood fire without that burned, The thoughts that burned and glowed within. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Dec 31 15:56:12 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 15:56:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy New Year! Message-ID: Happy New Year, one and all. 2002--Year of the Palindrome. Hal "language--the Riviera of consciousness" --Bob Perelman Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html From roger at nenuphar.freeserve.co.uk Mon Dec 31 20:11:40 2001 From: roger at nenuphar.freeserve.co.uk (roger day) Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 01:11:40 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy New Year! References: Message-ID: <006401c19261$45d36750$a8ee87d9@BYRON> farewell 11111010001, helloo 11111010010 ... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: "New-Poetry" Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 20:56 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy New Year! > > > Happy New Year, one and all. > > 2002--Year of the Palindrome. > > Hal "language--the Riviera of consciousness" > --Bob Perelman > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvard/index.html > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Mon Dec 31 20:22:44 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 17:22:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy New Year! Message-ID: <20020101012244.694DA36EE@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From wjbat at conncoll.edu Mon Dec 31 23:35:30 2001 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 20:35:30 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy New Year! In-Reply-To: <006401c19261$45d36750$a8ee87d9@BYRON> Message-ID: <20011231203530.020905@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> roger day wrote: >farewell 11111010001, helloo 11111010010 ... I trust there are good hexes as well as bad? Wendy, wishing everyone better next year