From moira_russell at hotmail.com Wed Aug 1 02:51:32 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 22:51:32 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Revision Message-ID: >it's a real hoot when he takes a word like >"liquifaction" out of -- oh, you know what poem it is! -- and replaces it >with "scintillation." Is this rewriting Herrick? That takes some brass ones. What I like a lot more than reading someone else's revision of a lot of different poems is reading notebooks/drafts of favorite poets to see how they battled their way through to something which looks so pristine and effortless on the page. I had a near-epiphany in the Santa Fe Public Library at about twelve looking at a book which traced the drafts of "Leda and the Swan" and realizing poetry was damned hard _work._ Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From moira_russell at hotmail.com Wed Aug 1 02:59:33 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2001 22:59:33 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Revision Message-ID: Poet lariat wrote: >I revise all the time, sometimes on poems that are years old. I don't >think >that just because a poem has appeared in print that that means that you've >had your final say on it. Ah, I can see editors of future Collected-Poems-Of are going to love _you._ This could be called the Robert Lowell school of revision (although come to think of it didn't Yeats revise poems years afterwards, after they were published? Sometimes seeing the work in cold print can be a near-revelatory experience about what it _ought_ to be like). With all this talk about revision I'm a bit surprised we haven't yet touched on Pound's revision of "The Wasteland." I have a pretty cheap edition of the annotated version, and it's fascinating to see what Pound did line by line. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From adead_poet at hotmail.com Wed Aug 1 03:55:40 2001 From: adead_poet at hotmail.com (dead poet) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 02:55:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Revision Message-ID: bishop's 'the art of losing' is one of my favorite poems. you wouldn't happen to know if the first draft(s) are on the web or would i find it in a book. thanks, jason >"Moira Russell" >I gained >a lot of heart when younger from seeing a draft of Elizabeth Bishop's "The >art of losing isn't hard to master," because I tend to go wild at first, >have too many lines and images I can't use, too many ways the poem could >go, >too many planned stanzas. Usually more than half of that goes. >Usually >what I'll wind up with is something slowly in the process of evolving, >first >second and third or whatever stanzas fairly set, fourth and fifth jelling, >sixth and seventh still being messed around with. Sometimes what results >from the coming-together of stanzas six and seven (just as an example) is >the dumping of stanzas one two and three. > >(interrupted by a ten-minute monologue from a co-worker about her graduate >advisor. eek. flashback) > >Anyhow, what I'm trying to say rather long-windedly here, is something I >saw >in the Anne Sexton biography by Diane Wood Middlebrook: the method is: >write, write, write. Then (and only then), in a separate process: cut, >cut, cut (or revise, revise, revise). Then, back to write, write, write. >Cut, cut, cut. Repeat until you have something good. This is the >important >part for me -- the writing and the editing/cutting/revising portions have >to >be separate. If you go in with an editorial eye and try to spontaneously >create, you'll freeze yourself up. If you're not rigorous enough and >looking for possible flaws when editing, you'll wind up not knowing what to >cut. I also find passing a poem by at least another pair or 2 of eyes >helps >immensely. > >I forget who it was who said "a writer must murder his darlings" -- >although >it does seem like the worked-over sections of a poem are what tend to >suffer >most. I also used to be rather nervous over those moments when the poem >suddenly flew off in another direction entirely, but I've come to see those >moments as gifts, no matter how much they wreck carefully laid-out plans. > >A good exercise for me if a poem isn't working is to "prose" it, to lay out >a kind of prose argument of it in completely non-poetic (non-formal-poetic >anyway) form. This usually always starts to turn to poetry by the end, and >it's a good way to see the subject in a different way. > >But I usually feel very suspicious talking about my working methods (and >it's fairly rare for me to show work to someone if it's not in a >semi-finished state) so I'll quit now. > >Moira Russell >Seattle, WA > >Wise Wretch! with Pleasures too refin'd to please; >With too much Spirit to be e'er at ease; >With too much Quickness ever to be taught; >With too much Thinking to have common Thought: >You purchase Pain with all that Joy can give, >And die of nothing but a Rage to live. >-- Alexander Pope > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Aug 1 08:13:40 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 08:13:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Revision In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I revise all the time, sometimes on poems that are years old. I don't think > that just because a poem has appeared in print that that means that you've > had your final say on it. In other words, it ain't over till *you're* over, eh? Hal "Flotsam, please, and a side order of jetsam." Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From rlong at jcn1.com Wed Aug 1 08:34:14 2001 From: rlong at jcn1.com (Richard Long) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 07:34:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Addition to 2River Chapbook Series Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20010801073220.00a62940@pop3.slu.edu> 2River today released its latest addition to the 2River Chapbook Series, SEX WITH TREES AND OTHER THINGS EQUALLY RESPONSIVE, a collection of 18 poems by Rebecca Lu Kiernan, in which she conveys the delicious misery of being on the verge of satisfaction. I hope you have the time to read it on one of these summer afternoons. Just follow the link below to 2River, where you'll see an announcement of the new chapbook. Since 1996, 2River has been a site of poetry, art, and theory, quarterly publishing THE 2RIVER VIEW and occasionally publishing individual writers in the 2River Chapbook Series. Richard Long ============ 2River rlong at 2River.org http://www.2River.org From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Aug 1 09:56:37 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 09:56:37 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Revision Message-ID: <31.1877d144.28996495@cs.com> In a message dated 8/1/2001 2:00:22 AM Central Daylight Time, moira_russell at hotmail.com writes: > Ah, I can see editors of future Collected-Poems-Of are going to love _you._ > This could be called the Robert Lowell school of revision (although come to > think of it didn't Yeats revise poems years afterwards, after they were > published? Sometimes seeing the work in cold print can be a > near-revelatory > experience about what it _ought_ to be like). > Lots of poets have. Ransom was the most notorious, and his revisions were generally pretty bad. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Aug 1 10:03:53 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 10:03:53 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Revision Message-ID: <110.32b98ed.28996649@cs.com> Here's a diction exercise I use. There is no 1. _____________ like a book To bear us 2. _____________ away Nor any 3. ___________ like a page Of 4. ____________ poetry. This 5. _____________ may the poorest take Without 6. _____________ of toll. How 7. __________ is the 8. __________ That bears the human soul. 1. type of ship 2. word indicating distance 3. type of horse 4. modifier signifying vitality 5. synonym for "trip" 6. noun signifying a burden 7. modifier signifying inexpensive 8. type of wheeled conveyance -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kellogg at duke.edu Wed Aug 1 11:25:40 2001 From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 11:25:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Revision References: <31.1877d144.28996495@cs.com> Message-ID: <3B681F73.EF1076B0@duke.edu> Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/1/2001 2:00:22 AM Central Daylight Time, > moira_russell at hotmail.com writes: > > > >> Ah, I can see editors of future Collected-Poems-Of are going to >> love _you._ >> This could be called the Robert Lowell school of revision >> (although come to >> think of it didn't Yeats revise poems years afterwards, after they >> were >> published? Sometimes seeing the work in cold print can be a >> near-revelatory >> experience about what it _ought_ to be like). > > Lots of poets have. Ransom was the most notorious, and his > revisions were > generally pretty bad. Another example: Thomas Kinsella. Despite the reputation of Famous Seamus, Kinsella is really the best Irish poet alive, but his post-publication revisions are sometimes problematic. He tends to publish "drafts" in his Peppercanister pamphlet series, then rearrangements and revisions in his Oxford books (now Carcanet, I suppose). His 1996 Collected, while still an essential volume, performs drastic and, I think, disfiguring revisions on several poems from his groundbreaking volume Notes from the Land of the Dead. David Kellogg Assistant Director, University Writing Program Duke University (919) 660-4357; FAX (919) 660-4372 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Aug 1 10:32:41 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 10:32:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: "Earthquake Weather" by August Kleinzahler Message-ID: Earthquake Weather She's talking to herself or somebody spasm talk heaving broken apart as it escapes her weather She can slip in there when the air's right and lay her stripe down red along your nerve-snake's sheathing Mrs B she forgot her medication now she's *on* flinching at the rejoinder or blow matted hair and chewed red nose that's her hard done by . . . husband mother . . . cruel fat daughter money always money pleasing her case down Clayton solo in the fog past the old Lab' puzzling her scent through Mrs B faces staring as the bus makes its turn she'll lay her stripe down when the air gets still she'll slip right in and make you breathe wrong --August Kleinzahler Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Aug 1 10:48:33 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 10:48:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Revision In-Reply-To: <110.32b98ed.28996649@cs.com> Message-ID: Here's a diction exercise I use. There is no xebec like a book To bear us parsecs away Nor any pony like a page Of pumped-up poetry. This safari may the poorest take Without a load of toll. How cut-rate is the taxi That bears the human soul. 1. type of ship 2. word indicating distance 3. type of horse 4. modifier signifying vitality 5. synonym for "trip" 6. noun signifying a burden 7. modifier signifying inexpensive 8. type of wheeled conveyance From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Aug 1 11:00:56 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 11:00:56 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Revision Message-ID: <53.97bf449.289973a8@cs.com> In a message dated 8/1/2001 9:55:14 AM Central Daylight Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > Here's a diction exercise I use. > > There is no xebec like a book > To bear us parsecs away > Nor any pony like a page > Of pumped-up poetry. > > This safari may the poorest take > Without a load of toll. > How cut-rate is the taxi > That bears the human soul. > > 1. type of ship > 2. word indicating distance > 3. type of horse > 4. modifier signifying vitality > 5. synonym for "trip" > 6. noun signifying a burden > 7. modifier signifying inexpensive > 8. type of wheeled conveyance Well, that captures some kind of flavor, in a Mad-Libs sort of way. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Aug 1 11:03:44 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 11:03:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Revision In-Reply-To: <53.97bf449.289973a8@cs.com> Message-ID: There is no xebec like a book To bear us parsecs away Nor any pony like a page Of pumped-up poetry. This safari may the poorest take Without a load of toll. How cut-rate is the taxi That bears the human soul. 1. type of ship 2. word indicating distance 3. type of horse 4. modifier signifying vitality 5. synonym for "trip" 6. noun signifying a burden 7. modifier signifying inexpensive 8. type of wheeled conveyance Well, that captures some kind of flavor, in a Mad-Libs sort of way. ************** Would I have gotten more points if I'd filled the blanks with Dickinson's words? Shucks, I should've taken more time. Is something like this going to be on the final? Hal "metaphor--I use them. They keep me regular." --Paul Violi Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From moira_russell at hotmail.com Wed Aug 1 11:16:03 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 07:16:03 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Revision Message-ID: You can find it in Bishop's "Complete Poems." Wise Wretch! with Pleasures too refin'd to please; With too much Spirit to be e'er at ease; With too much Quickness ever to be taught; With too much Thinking to have common Thought: You purchase Pain with all that Joy can give, And die of nothing but a Rage to live. -- Alexander Pope >From: "dead poet" >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: Revision >Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 02:55:40 -0500 > > >bishop's 'the art of losing' is one of my favorite poems. you wouldn't >happen to know if the first draft(s) are on the web or would i find it in a >book. > >thanks, >jason > >>"Moira Russell" > >>I gained >>a lot of heart when younger from seeing a draft of Elizabeth Bishop's "The >>art of losing isn't hard to master," because I tend to go wild at first, >>have too many lines and images I can't use, too many ways the poem could >>go, >>too many planned stanzas. > > > > > >Usually more than half of that goes. >>Usually >>what I'll wind up with is something slowly in the process of evolving, >>first >>second and third or whatever stanzas fairly set, fourth and fifth jelling, >>sixth and seventh still being messed around with. Sometimes what results >>from the coming-together of stanzas six and seven (just as an example) is >>the dumping of stanzas one two and three. >> >>(interrupted by a ten-minute monologue from a co-worker about her graduate >>advisor. eek. flashback) >> >>Anyhow, what I'm trying to say rather long-windedly here, is something I >>saw >>in the Anne Sexton biography by Diane Wood Middlebrook: the method is: >>write, write, write. Then (and only then), in a separate process: cut, >>cut, cut (or revise, revise, revise). Then, back to write, write, write. >>Cut, cut, cut. Repeat until you have something good. This is the >>important >>part for me -- the writing and the editing/cutting/revising portions have >>to >>be separate. If you go in with an editorial eye and try to spontaneously >>create, you'll freeze yourself up. If you're not rigorous enough and >>looking for possible flaws when editing, you'll wind up not knowing what >>to >>cut. I also find passing a poem by at least another pair or 2 of eyes >>helps >>immensely. >> >>I forget who it was who said "a writer must murder his darlings" -- >>although >>it does seem like the worked-over sections of a poem are what tend to >>suffer >>most. I also used to be rather nervous over those moments when the poem >>suddenly flew off in another direction entirely, but I've come to see >>those >>moments as gifts, no matter how much they wreck carefully laid-out plans. >> >>A good exercise for me if a poem isn't working is to "prose" it, to lay >>out >>a kind of prose argument of it in completely non-poetic (non-formal-poetic >>anyway) form. This usually always starts to turn to poetry by the end, >>and >>it's a good way to see the subject in a different way. >> >>But I usually feel very suspicious talking about my working methods (and >>it's fairly rare for me to show work to someone if it's not in a >>semi-finished state) so I'll quit now. >> >>Moira Russell >>Seattle, WA >> >>Wise Wretch! with Pleasures too refin'd to please; >>With too much Spirit to be e'er at ease; >>With too much Quickness ever to be taught; >>With too much Thinking to have common Thought: >>You purchase Pain with all that Joy can give, >>And die of nothing but a Rage to live. >>-- Alexander Pope >> >>_________________________________________________________________ >>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From moira_russell at hotmail.com Wed Aug 1 11:20:26 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 07:20:26 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Revision Message-ID: And let us not forget Robert Graves, whose Collected editions wreaked increasing havoc on a lot of his best poetry. I guess this is turning into a "when to stop revising" thread. (STOP ME BEFORE I REWRITE AGAIN....) When I used to paint semi-seriously, a long time ago, one of the hardest things for me to learn was when to step away from the canvas and stop fiddling with it -- to know when it was Done. This often semed quite counterintuitive, and I had the nasty habit of fiddling incessantly with one corner until it was entirely out of whack with the rest of the painting, and then it was either try to wipe out the excessive revision or rework the rest of the painting to match that particular corner (and THAT never worked). I think someone else already asked this question, but: how do you know when a poem is Done? Do you hear a "click," like Yeats? Do you Just Know? Or do you just get tired of fooling with the damned thing? >From: David Kellogg >Another example: Thomas Kinsella. Wise Wretch! with Pleasures too refin'd to please; With too much Spirit to be e'er at ease; With too much Quickness ever to be taught; With too much Thinking to have common Thought: You purchase Pain with all that Joy can give, And die of nothing but a Rage to live. -- Alexander Pope _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Aug 1 11:38:28 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 11:38:28 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Revision Message-ID: In a message dated 8/1/2001 10:23:57 AM Central Daylight Time, moira_russell at hotmail.com writes: > Or > do you just get tired of fooling with the damned thing? > > Abandoned in despair, as (I believe) Valery said. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From simmers at primex.co.uk Wed Aug 1 11:46:02 2001 From: simmers at primex.co.uk (George Simmers) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 16:46:02 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] August Snakeskin - and the prospect of October's Message-ID: <002701c11aa1$c838b160$3383a5d5@oemcomputer> August Snakeskin is now online. It's rather a good issue, with poems by: Roddy Lumsden Robert James Berry Helena Nelson Sam Brenton Stephen Brown L.Fullington John Cornwall Peter Cavendish and Nicolette Turner October Snakeskin will be a special issue, guest-edited by New Zealand poet Alan Papprill. The theme of the issue will be Journeys and Arrivals. Any approach to the theme is welcome - literal, metaphorical or downright weird. For more details see the Future Plans page on the website. Looking forward to hearing from you George ______________________________________________ George Simmers Snakeskin Poetry Webzine is at http://www.snakeskin.org.uk From Jandhodge at aol.com Wed Aug 1 12:24:06 2001 From: Jandhodge at aol.com (Jandhodge at aol.com) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 12:24:06 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Revision Message-ID: <28.18ff64b2.28998726@aol.com> Sam Gwynn write: << I revise all the time, sometimes on poems that are years old. I don't think that just because a poem has appeared in print that that means that you've had your final say on it. >> I'm with Sam on this. As Yeats [oh dear] put it: Friends that have it I do wrong Whenever I remake a song, Should know what issue is at stake: It is myself that I remake. I'm also rather partial to the old-fashioned notion that a poem is a "made thing," and try to make each one as close to a "finished object" as I can. Of course all kinds of unanticipated things happen in the process, often changing the entire thrust or focus of a poem. And "finished" doesn't in any way preclude a wide range of possible responses or intrepretations. I'm not sure it's a matter of either/or. Jan From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Aug 1 12:33:51 2001 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 17:33:51 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] final word until print References: Message-ID: <000401c11aa9$83bbc240$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3> I've been away for a few days, and only just caught this. Who else other than Our Kent parades the destination of the copies he is sending out? Sometimes blank-copy isn't a cop-out, but simply decent manners to cut down on the noise-level. In another post, David Kellogg quite rightly objects to having his posts quoted without permission. I have to say that my own proposed strategy here will be to reference list archives (Buffalo, subsub, british-poets, poetryetc, possibly New-Poetry) -- but there are already problems emerging. The earlier subsub archives have already been pulped by Microsoft, and the later archives may have gone by the time my article appears (post-September at the earliest), and current access to the poetryetc archives is restricted to members of poetryetc. I'd be grateful for any advice as to how to deal with this. As to Amber's point that this is a trivial flamewar in a barbecue pit, it +has+ been going on for some considerable time (my current feeling is that the roots lie in The Yasuda Moment in 1996, which would give it a longer run than the First World War). Even if we take the Buffalo Fiasco as the start, that gives us a three year plus time-span. And it involves issues of several kinds -- L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E poetry, literary and cybernetic personae, tolerance and webspace, poems even (or if I may be allowed scare-quotes, "poems" even) ... But (as someone else said on this list) wait for the publically published version ... Robin Hamilton ----- Original Message ----- From: "kent johnson" To: ; ; Cc: ; Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 2:32 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] final word until print > Candice, > > As the moderator in charge of overseeing the Poetryetc rules, you should > stop all this cross-posting! > > Give it a rest now. You and Alison got arrogant, messed with the wrong > person, and you've lost. > > It's too bad you couldn't have dealt with your shame without looking like > you were having a nervous breakdown in print. > > Now drop the issue, and drop your ugly threats against the New-Poetry list. > > Kent > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Aug 1 14:17:16 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 14:17:16 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] final word until print Message-ID: <110.3383041.2899a1ac@cs.com> Do Language poets revise? Or is spontaneity all? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From duemer at clarkson.edu Wed Aug 1 14:22:45 2001 From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 14:22:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] final word until print References: <110.3383041.2899a1ac@cs.com> Message-ID: <007601c11ab6$f7738e40$b15cfea9@fwvfv> Language poets don't even deign to write, Sam, so how could they revise? jd ====================== Joseph Duemer School of Liberal Arts, 5750 Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699 315.268.3967 duemer at clarkson.edu http://web.northnet.org/duemer http://www.grammarbitch.com/ppp/index.html ====================== Times are bad. Children no longer Obey their parents, and everyone Is writing a book. [Cicero] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From artwords at idirect.com Wed Aug 1 16:28:02 2001 From: artwords at idirect.com (Tanya Adele Koehnke) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 15:28:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: [New-Poetry} final word until print Message-ID: <3B686652.2ECE@idirect.com> > Language poets don't even deign to write, Sam, so how could they revise? > > jd Joseph Duemer's comment prompts me to ponder... Are language poets verbal existentialists/verbal nihilists? Has anyone ever compared them to Sartre, Nietzsche, and the like? Tanya Adele Koehnke From klvarnes at home.com Wed Aug 1 15:21:47 2001 From: klvarnes at home.com (Kathrine Varnes) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 14:21:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Revision In-Reply-To: <28.18ff64b2.28998726@aol.com> Message-ID: Can't presume to say much about all language poets, but one avant garde poet, Jackson Mac Low, revises quite a bit -- which I discovered when reprinting a couple of his poems in An Exaltation of Forms (now in press). Kathrine From gmcvay at patriot.net Wed Aug 1 15:48:09 2001 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 15:48:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Revision In-Reply-To: <110.32b98ed.28996649@cs.com> Message-ID: > There is no 1. destroyer like a book > To bear us 2. half a block away > Nor any 3. Appaloosa like a page > Of 4. perky poetry. > > This 5. leisure cruise may the poorest take > Without 6. mother-in-law of toll. > How 7. cheesy is the 8. scooter > That bears the human soul. > > 1. type of ship > 2. word indicating distance > 3. type of horse > 4. modifier signifying vitality > 5. synonym for "trip" > 6. noun signifying a burden > 7. modifier signifying inexpensive > 8. type of wheeled conveyance > I like my version better. Gwyn of one "n" From kljohnson45 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 1 15:52:07 2001 From: kljohnson45 at hotmail.com (kent johnson) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 14:52:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] revising for IQ Message-ID: "Language poets don't even deign to write, so how could they revise?" The above comment is either sarcastically directed at the apparent naivete of the question "Do Language poets revise?", or reflects a stunning and poignant stupidity on the part of its sender! _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From kljohnson45 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 1 15:57:27 2001 From: kljohnson45 at hotmail.com (kent johnson) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 14:57:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Paging Mr. Hamilton in Manila Message-ID: That would be *Yasusada*, George. Let me know if I can be of any help to you as the article unfolds! Kent _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From AP201070 at BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU Wed Aug 1 15:53:10 2001 From: AP201070 at BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (Henry) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 15:53:10 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Revision In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <010801.160147.EDT.AP201070@BROWNVM.brown.edu> This, imhumho, is very very fine, Gwyn, fine. And yet if I were to presume to fiddle with it... shall I presume? I find it rather difficult to think of "cheesy" in the same quadrant, or even different quadrant, of my brain, with "scooter" (although I suppose cheesy could be considered an almost-, pseudo-, or perhaps a para-anagram for scooter, but then, do you really want to embellish your work with baroquities of that sorte?). Thus, if on a midnight dweeb & dweewy, I were to REVISE this... I tend to lean toward "How breezy is the boater That's booted by the sole." But that's just my idiosyncratic personal thumbprint at work, I suppose. - Eric Blarnes On Wed, 1 Aug 2001 15:48:09 -0400 (EDT) Gwyn McVay said: >> There is no 1. destroyer like a book >> To bear us 2. half a block away >> Nor any 3. Appaloosa like a page >> Of 4. perky poetry. >> >> This 5. leisure cruise may the poorest take >> Without 6. mother-in-law of toll. >> How 7. cheesy is the 8. scooter >> That bears the human soul. >> >> 1. type of ship >> 2. word indicating distance >> 3. type of horse >> 4. modifier signifying vitality >> 5. synonym for "trip" >> 6. noun signifying a burden >> 7. modifier signifying inexpensive >> 8. type of wheeled conveyance >> >I like my version better. > >Gwyn of one "n" > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Aug 1 16:48:44 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 16:48:44 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] final word until print Message-ID: In a message dated 8/1/2001 1:31:49 PM Central Daylight Time, duemer at clarkson.edu writes: > > ??< I dunno. Doesn't the < mix the metaphor a bit? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Aug 1 16:49:44 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 16:49:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] final word until print References: <110.3383041.2899a1ac@cs.com> Message-ID: <3B686B68.3014@nut-n-but.net> Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > Do Language poets revise? Or is spontaneity all? Good question. Ron? The one language poet I know, John M. Bennett, does very little revising--or, better, most of his poems are revisions of earlier ones. (Bennett, incidentally, has never been accepted as a language poet by the official language poets, mainly--I suspect-- because he's not concerned in his poetry with the horrors of capitalism, etc., and he didn't hang out with the language poets; but he thinks of himself a making language poems, and is the most thorough and interesting explorer of burst syntax, spelling, etc., I know of.) I have composed a few poems I consider language poems, and subjected them to careful revision. On second thought, my poems of that kind are almost always only partially language poems. I like to move in and out of burst syntax in ways that seem metaphorically interesting to me--the way Roethke, an unrecognized fore-runner of language poetry (after Joyce) grew some of his best poems from the "wrong" syntax of baby-talk through surrealism to various grand clarities in a way that suggested, among many things, a days progress from night to noon. --Bob G. From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Aug 1 16:50:23 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 16:50:23 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Revision Message-ID: <45.a004889.2899c58f@cs.com> In a message dated 8/1/2001 2:49:19 PM Central Daylight Time, gmcvay at patriot.net writes: > Subj:Re: [New-Poetry] Revision > Date:8/1/2001 2:49:19 PM Central Daylight Time > From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) > Sender: new-poetry-admin at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Reply-to: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > > > > > There is no 1. destroyer like a book > > To bear us 2. half a block away > > Nor any 3. Appaloosa like a page > > Of 4. perky poetry. > > > > This 5. leisure cruise may the poorest take > > Without 6. mother-in-law of toll. > > How 7. cheesy is the 8. scooter > > That bears the human soul. > > > > 1. type of ship > > 2. word indicating distance > > 3. type of horse > > 4. modifier signifying vitality > > 5. synonym for "trip" > > 6. noun signifying a burden > > 7. modifier signifying inexpensive > > 8. type of wheeled conveyance > > > I like my version better. > > Gwyn of one "n" > Well, your seventh line is a classic. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From duemer at clarkson.edu Wed Aug 1 16:47:37 2001 From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 16:47:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] revising for IQ References: Message-ID: <000a01c11acb$33926540$18724342@twcny.rr.com> Kent Johnson writes:<<"Language poets don't even deign to write, so how could they revise?" The above comment is either sarcastically directed at the apparent naivete of the question "Do Language poets revise?", or reflects a stunning and poignant stupidity on the part of its sender!>> Short week, Kent. But I'm not complaining--I won the pool. More on this topic anon. ====================== Joseph Duemer School of Liberal Arts, 5750 Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699 315.268.3967 duemer at clarkson.edu http://web.northnet.org/duemer http://www.grammarbitch.com/ppp/index.html ====================== Times are bad. Children no longer Obey their parents, and everyone Is writing a book. [Cicero] From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Aug 1 17:03:17 2001 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 22:03:17 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Paging Mr. Hamilton in Manila References: Message-ID: <005b01c11acd$dfa5fde0$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3> > That would be *Yasusada*, George. I'll get this right by the day -- currently, I'm focusing on remembering the correct title -- DoubleD Flowering, right? > Let me know if I can be of any help to you as the article unfolds! I'm trying to stick to front-channel source material -- the figure in the carpet. Rules of the game. > Kent Robin From kljohnson45 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 1 17:15:51 2001 From: kljohnson45 at hotmail.com (kent johnson) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 16:15:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject) Message-ID: Joe Duemer said, >>I haven't written anything since finishing the poems in my next book<< Holy Philip K. Dick, Joe! What's the title of this book? *Back to the Future*? and then he said, >>but when I begin writing again I hope that the poems somehow take themselves apart on the page. I hope they have bad manners. I hope they do not need to be embarrassed by their own beauty or their own beliefs.<< Good, Joe! If you don't get sucked into a wormhole before you're ready to start your new project, you might try reading Spicer. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From wasanthony at yahoo.com Wed Aug 1 17:52:34 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 14:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] final word until print In-Reply-To: <007601c11ab6$f7738e40$b15cfea9@fwvfv> Message-ID: <20010801215234.14419.qmail@web12102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Joseph Duemer wrote: > Language poets don't even deign to write, Sam, so how could they > revise? > Kinda reminds me of the ole whale in the bathtub, Joe. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From duemer at clarkson.edu Wed Aug 1 20:46:16 2001 From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 20:46:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Back to the Future References: Message-ID: <004201c11aec$89d18be0$18724342@twcny.rr.com> That was a rather strange locution re: my "next book," but appropriate for a book in press, I think. The title, since you were nice enough to ask, is Magical Thinking, due out this fall from Ohio State University Press. And there are already some bad mannered poems in there, I think. And what makes you think I don't know Spicer's work? As for my remark about language poets, it was meant to indicate in a hyperbolic way--surely, Kent, you are familiar with this rhetorical device if no other--that language poets might be said to let the language do the driving, so if any revision gets done it gets done by the language itself. (This is a perspective with which I have a good deal of sympathy, as it happens.) jd ====================== Joseph Duemer School of Liberal Arts, 5750 Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699 315.268.3967 duemer at clarkson.edu http://web.northnet.org/duemer http://www.grammarbitch.com/ppp/index.html ====================== Times are bad. Children no longer Obey their parents, and everyone Is writing a book. [Cicero] From kellogg at duke.edu Wed Aug 1 22:26:40 2001 From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 22:26:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Back to the Future References: <004201c11aec$89d18be0$18724342@twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <3B68BA60.6DF6B883@duke.edu> Joseph Duemer wrote: > As for my remark about language poets, it was meant to indicate in a > hyperbolic way--surely, Kent, you are familiar with this rhetorical device > if no other--that language poets might be said to let the language do the > driving, so if any revision gets done it gets done by the language itself. > (This is a perspective with which I have a good deal of sympathy, as it > happens.) I've been following this discussion a bit. It seems to me that, as usual, the term "language poets" casts a pretty wide net. It also seems to me that different strains of language writing have different attitudes with regard to authorial control. The total control exerted in Barrett Watten's work, for example, seems to require revision. At the opposite end of the spectrum is Ron Silliman. Somewhere in Ron's "Alphabet" series, there is a poem about how the poem proceeds without revision. (Elsewhere -- in "Lit"? -- that sentence gets quoted along with an entire negative review of Ron's project. I love that moment.) It's interesting how Barry and Ron are so close when their methods differ so. In other words, it's not about method. Method is a way of getting somewhere. Do what works for you to get there, revision-wise. All of this is to say that the allegiance to "process" is not absolute in language writing. I'm on the verge of publishing a wonderful little chapbook by Erica Hunt, a writer associated with language, and David Kellogg Director, Writing in the Disciplines Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing Duke University (919) 660-4357; FAX (919) 660-4372 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg From kellogg at duke.edu Wed Aug 1 22:28:56 2001 From: kellogg at duke.edu (David Kellogg) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 22:28:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] back to the future (corrected) Message-ID: <3B68BAE8.DD604853@duke.edu> Whoops! Sent too early. Complete version of my post below. Joseph Duemer wrote: > As for my remark about language poets, it was meant to indicate in a > hyperbolic way--surely, Kent, you are familiar with this rhetorical device > if no other--that language poets might be said to let the language do the > driving, so if any revision gets done it gets done by the language itself. > (This is a perspective with which I have a good deal of sympathy, as it > happens.) I've been following this discussion a bit. It seems to me that, as usual, the term "language poets" casts a pretty wide net. It also seems to me that different strains of language writing have different attitudes with regard to authorial control. The total control exerted in Barrett Watten's work, for example, seems to require revision. At the opposite end of the spectrum is Ron Silliman. Somewhere in Ron's "Alphabet" series, there is a poem about how the poem proceeds without revision. (Elsewhere -- in "Lit"? -- that sentence gets quoted along with an entire negative review of Ron's project. I love that moment.) It's interesting how Barry and Ron are so close when their methods differ so. In other words, it's not about method. Method is a way of getting somewhere. Do what works for you to get there, revision-wise. All of this is to say that the allegiance to "process" is not absolute in language writing. I'm on the verge of publishing a wonderful little chapbook by Erica Hunt, a writer associated with language poetry, and she's still revising hard. David Kellogg Director, Writing in the Disciplines Center for Teaching, Learning, and Writing Duke University (919) 660-4357; FAX (919) 660-4372 http://www.duke.edu/~kellogg From AP201070 at BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU Wed Aug 1 21:39:11 2001 From: AP201070 at BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (Henry) Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2001 21:39:11 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Back to the Future In-Reply-To: <004201c11aec$89d18be0$18724342@twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <010801.220004.EDT.AP201070@BROWNVM.brown.edu> I guess if you're going to "talk shop" it might be fun to talk about revising, or not revising. But as a lens for considering poems, it seems pretty useless to me. You could spend all day talking about the process, and never get to a single poem. In other words it's utterly irrelevant to my interest, whether or not Ron Silliman or Barret Watten revise their work. Or anyone else for that matter. Jonson wrote or said of Shakespeare, "would he had blotted a thousand! (lines)" But that wasn't criticism. It was mere internet jabber. I revise mostly as I go along, at the time of composition. Occasionally I discover glaring lapses or goofs later on, but I'm not that interested in re-working. Either because I'm lazy, or because I think of poems as complex occasions happening at a certain time of day, year, or era, and returning to tweak often results in something even weaker. Auden tweaked too, I believe, because he had nothing better to do at the time. Other methods may work better for you, however. "and Burke is a psychologist - of acute and raccoon- like curiosity. _Summa diligentia_; to the humbug, whose name is so amusing - very young and very rushed, Caesar crossed the Alps on the 'top of a _diligence_". [Marianne Moore] - Henry "cold water" Gould From wasanthony at yahoo.com Wed Aug 1 22:43:03 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 19:43:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Back to the Future In-Reply-To: <010801.220004.EDT.AP201070@BROWNVM.brown.edu> Message-ID: <20010802024303.69500.qmail@web12108.mail.yahoo.com> --- Henry wrote: > I guess if you're going to "talk shop" it might be fun to talk about > revising, or not revising. But as a lens for considering poems, > it seems pretty useless to me. You could spend all day talking > about the process, and never get to a single poem. > I'm with you there buddy. And what did Joe mean by his subject line? Could be I'm tired, but he over-arched me there. - Jim p.s. - Joe and I were classmates at U.W. some 30 years ago. Maybe he's tired too. ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From gmcvay at patriot.net Wed Aug 1 22:52:43 2001 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 22:52:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] On making noises In-Reply-To: <20010802024303.69500.qmail@web12108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The form provides openings--then miracles can happen. That's what we're in it for: those moments of unexpected joy. Jerome John Garcia August 1, 1942-August 9, 1995 From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Aug 2 06:52:52 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 06:52:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Back to the Future References: <20010802024303.69500.qmail@web12108.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3B693104.4EE5@nut-n-but.net> You could spend all talking about a poem and never get to process. (To each his own, but some people find knowing how things work interesting.) --Bob G. From AP201070 at BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU Thu Aug 2 08:20:55 2001 From: AP201070 at BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (Henry) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 08:20:55 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Back to the Future In-Reply-To: <3B693104.4EE5@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <010802.083237.EDT.AP201070@BROWNVM.brown.edu> Everything is interesting, if you're interested. You're right, Bob. I'm sorry to throw cold water. But I'm still skeptical about the substance of what you come away with. After you've gone over how me or you or poet X or Y "proceeded", are you any closer to the poem, or have you just added to your stock of useless knowledge? & is it even knowledge? What do you "know" about the way poet Z works, after you've heard that s/he "revises obsessively", etc.? It's just that I'm reading old essays by RP Blackmur lately, like "The Critic's Job of Work". The poem is a work of feeling/intellect that we respond to in complex ways, as we look at a beautiful building or listen to music. But so much shop talk makes it seem rather like a 24-hr hobby, like being an avid member of a bowling club. Poetry's not like that. Blackmur is interested in how critics bring their knowledge to bear, & their "amateur" responses to bear, in ways that illuminate the poem without turning it into something it's not or enlisting it in more useful uses. He's sensible: he recognizes that poems are not autonomous, that there are always ulterior motives - but he looks for what the art work does as art work, as its main raison d'etre. Henry On Thu, 02 Aug 2001 06:52:52 -0400 Bob Grumman said: >You could spend all talking about a poem and never get to process. >(To each his own, but some people find knowing how things work >interesting.) > > --Bob G. > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Aug 2 09:46:30 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 09:46:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Back to the Future References: <010802.083237.EDT.AP201070@BROWNVM.brown.edu> Message-ID: <3B6959B6.39C8@nut-n-but.net> Henry, I'm just popping off (again) in general against something I preceive as too much like the standard guff of the anti-reflection crowd--the kind who don't think it makes sense to distinguish poetry from that which is not poetry, or worry about what a poet is doing as opposed to how one feels the immediate result thereof, etc. > After you've gone over how me or you or poet X or Y "proceeded", > are you any closer to the poem, It would depend on the poet and your investigation. It could make all the difference in what you get from a poem--if, for instance, you learn that word A was originally word B, you might suddenly realize the importance of word A, which might suddenly make you understand what the poem was most about. > or have you just added to your stock of useless knowledge? You can't know in advance but it's more than once led to knowledge I considered good for me to have > & is it even knowledge? Of course, it's knowledge. Unless you want to play subjective games about data you like (knowledge) and data I like (information or whatever). > What do you "know" about the way poet Z works, after > you've heard that s/he "revises obsessively", etc.? That the poet revises obsessively. And we're into the creative process, which--I have to say--is possibly of more interest to me than poetry (and there's definitely NO reason it ought to be for others). I think everything we know about poets will tell us about how they create. Naturally, I would like to know more about a given poet than only that he revises obsessively, though that could be of value by itself (it would make me, as a critic, less inhibited about assuming plain errors than otherwise in what the poet writes, for instance). I further believe this could be useful to other poets, not just people interested in psychology like me, because it might suggest new PRODUCTIVE ways of working. Or simply encourage one that one is doing it right--that one is not a fool for revising dozens of times since Yeats did so, or that not revising necessarily means one is going about it wrong since John M. Bennett (or some other poet one admires) revises minimally. > It's just that I'm reading old essays by RP Blackmur lately, like > "The Critic's Job of Work". The poem is a work of feeling/intellect > that we respond to in complex ways, as we look at a beautiful > building or listen to music. But so much shop talk makes it seem > rather like a 24-hr hobby, like being an avid member of a bowling > club. Poets' resistance to poetry shop talk makes it hard for me to think of them as more than hobbyists--though I know many very serious poets are purely intuitive, and don't like shop talk. > Poetry's not like that. I suspect bowlers are exactly like poets in that many of the most serious ones will tell you they don't like to talk about what they do, they just do it, and others will go on and on about the nature and significance of lane conditions in various bowling alleys, etc. > Blackmur is interested in how critics > bring their knowledge to bear, & their "amateur" responses to bear, in > ways that illuminate the poem without turning it into something it's not > or enlisting it in more useful uses. He's sensible: he recognizes that > poems are not autonomous, that there are always ulterior motives - but > he looks for what the art work does as art work, as its main raison > d'etre. I've always thought of Blackmur as one of our best critics, but haven't read much of him. Hope to read more of him one of these days. I go along with the idea that what an artwork does as an artwork is its main purpose; what else could be its MAIN reason for being? --Bob G. From JforJames at aol.com Thu Aug 2 09:49:26 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 09:49:26 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Jacket 15 (futural) Message-ID: <22.19ab8ce4.289ab466@aol.com> Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2001 14:45:04 -0700 From: John Tranter Subject: Jacket 15 When I was a philosophy student I was marked down for wrongly answering the question "Can you read tomorrow's newspaper today?" And then there's Rimbaud's remark: "...and sometimes I have seen what men imagined they saw!" Conundrums like that are as nothing to the intrepid cybernaut: in the strange world of cyberspace you can read issues of Jacket magazine that aren't even due for publication until the end of the year. Jacket # 15 is under construction, and will be complete in December 2001. In the meantime you can read these items, at http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/jacket15/index.html Articles: Keston Sutherland: The Trade in Bathos Craig Dworkin and Michel Delville: Conference, May 18-20, 2000, Universidad de Salamanca Reviews: Douglas Barbour reviews Calyx, an anthology of Australian poetry Richard Caddel reviews Keith Tuma (ed.): Anthology of Twentieth-Century British & Irish Poetry Tom Clark reviews John Ashbery's 100 Multiple-Choice Questions Kris Hemensley reviews New and Selected Poems 1978-97 by John Anderson Kim Hjelmgaard reviews A Poetry of Two Minds, by Sherod Santos Mark Neely reviews Eleni Sikelianos: Earliest Worlds Patrick Pritchett reviews Ring of Fire, by Lisa Jarnot Dale Smith reviews Lewis MacAdams: Birth of the Cool Chris Tysh reviews Marjorie Welish: The Annotated "Here" and Selected Poems Poems from Aaron Belz, Peter Boyle, Chris Edwards, John Hawke, J.Nicole Hoelle, S.K.Kelen, John Kinsella, David Lehman, Cassie Lewis, Geraldine McKenzie, Mark Mahemoff, Ange Mlinko, Chris Tysh, Ethan Paquin, C.D.Wright and Yang Lian Interviews - C.D.Wright interviewed by Kent Johnson - with Deborah Luster's remarkable photographs of inmates from Louisana prisons - C.D.Wright: excerpt from her poem sequence Deepstep Come Shining - Dale Smith interviewed by Kent Johnson from John Tranter Editor, Jacket magazine: http://www.jacket.zip.com.au/ > new John Tranter homepage - poetry, reviews, articles, at: http://www.austlit.com/johntranter/ > early writing at: http://setis.library.usyd.edu.au/tranter/ 39 Short Street, Balmain NSW 2041, Sydney, Australia tel (+612) 9555 8502 fax (+612) 9818 8569 From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu Thu Aug 2 10:21:43 2001 From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Amber Prentiss) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 10:21:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Back to the Future Message-ID: I feel like yakking this morning. Sometimes /writing/ poetry feels like a 24-hour hobby. I feel that way partially because most people, after all, do something else as a way of supporting themselves and their work (teaching, vacuuming, whatever.) I also think of it this way because I think there's a danger of taking poetry (writing and reading) too seriously. Chefs play with food; painters play with their paints; if you can't play with your words anymore, where's the fun? Something about the word 'art' creates a sense of the remove of the gallery. You can't afford it; you can't get too close; you can't touch it. You can spill coffee on a poem, absolutely ruin the spine on a book, have your dog run over it, and yet it's still there. A poem's main reason for existence seems to be that annoying voice that bugs people to get out of bed when they don't necessarily want to and write something down when they don't necessarily feel like it. To bring the poet down from a legend into a person who has done work helps bring the poem off the shelf into something I can tear apart, laugh at (even and especially when it's not intended to be funny), and examine without reverence. I have no idea if this is making sense. I need to go to work. -Amber -----Original Message----- From: Henry To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 8/2/2001 8:20 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Back to the Future But so much shop talk makes it seem rather like a 24-hr hobby, like being an avid member of a bowling club. Poetry's not like that. Blackmur is interested in how critics bring their knowledge to bear, & their "amateur" responses to bear, in ways that illuminate the poem without turning it into something it's not or enlisting it in more useful uses. He's sensible: he recognizes that poems are not autonomous, that there are always ulterior motives - but he looks for what the art work does as art work, as its main raison d'etre. Henry On Thu, 02 Aug 2001 06:52:52 -0400 Bob Grumman said: >You could spend all talking about a poem and never get to process. >(To each his own, but some people find knowing how things work >interesting.) > > --Bob G. > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From AP201070 at BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU Thu Aug 2 10:27:26 2001 From: AP201070 at BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (Henry) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 10:27:26 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Back to the Future In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <010802.103640.EDT.AP201070@BROWNVM.brown.edu> I think that makes a lot of sense, Amber. I just think that also, on the other hand, one of the most obvious problems in the poem-bowling world at the moment is the dearth of real, evaluative criticism. Poetry may be a full-time hobby but it's also something more. (I know somebody will pipe up & say there's plenty of good real criticism happening. Prove it to me, please!) Bob, in Blackmur's terms, the curious investigations you're talking about are a kind of scholarship, not criticism (not that you were saying they were criticism in the 1st place!). Scholarship being a collective process, internet discussion is of course a very useful spot for leads, new ideas, etc. as you say. Blackmur says scholarship is to criticism as engineering is to architecture. He's all for it. I guess the question I'm asking is, are we evaluating all this internet scholarship (ie. shop talk, chat, gab, gossip, useless tidbits of vapid information, etc) as we go along? I'm not saying there's an answer to this question, I'm just putting it out there. Henry From JforJames at aol.com Thu Aug 2 11:24:36 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 11:24:36 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Revision Message-ID: <109.3802d59.289acab4@aol.com> Here's some shop talk, related to revision, from Bunting: Basil Bunting's advice to young poets I SUGGEST 1. Compose aloud; poetry is a sound. 2. Vary rhythm enough to stir the emotion you want but not so as to lose impetus. 3. Use spoken words and syntax. 4. Fear adjective; they bleed nouns. Hate the passive. 5. Jettison ornament gaily but keep shape Put your poem away till you forget it, then: 6. Cut out every word you dare. 7. Do it again a week later, and again. Never explain - your reader is as smart as you. From Jandhodge at aol.com Thu Aug 2 11:55:43 2001 From: Jandhodge at aol.com (Jandhodge at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 11:55:43 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Back to the Future Message-ID: <20.1a16fe7e.289ad1ff@aol.com> Henry "cold water" writes: << Blackmur is interested in how critics bring their knowledge to bear, & their "amateur" responses to bear, in ways that illuminate the poem without turning it into something it's not . . . He's sensible: . . . he looks for what the art work does as art work, as its main raison d'etre. >> As a "finished object"? Jan From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Aug 2 11:55:49 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 11:55:49 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Frost's Gift Outright Message-ID: Just came across this, re. a recent thread: Has any major poet written a worse poem about America than ?The Gift Outright?? It contains every part of Frost?s terrible sentiment for the Land, America, the Past, for Ourselves, for the general myth that replaces the mangled event?even the best line, ?To the land vaguely realizing westward,? drowns in the horror of all that is left unsaid. --William Logan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu Thu Aug 2 12:06:01 2001 From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Amber Prentiss) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 12:06:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Show not tell? Message-ID: Somewhere in the long thread about revising, someone mentioned outgrowing the advice to 'show, not tell.' So what did the phrase mean then that needed outgrowing? Or - what does it mean? (This is trying not to be a stupid question.) -A From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Thu Aug 2 12:18:07 2001 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 12:18:07 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Frost's Gift Outright Message-ID: <92.185b5041.289ad73f@aol.com> Maybe, but in truth, I think Frost himself knew this. The look he gave during the JFK inaug. after his occasional poem got itself wind spent was telling. As he launched into Gift, he formed a full if vatic frown that, I think, was not merely responsive to the low gale, but acknowledged a different kind of defeat. On the other hand, at least JFK invited the poet to read. But not sure I understand the point of the trashing. (I understand the point of criticism. It's trashing I don't.) Yes, a lousy poem. Sentimental subjects tend to yield sentimental poems. Maybe that's why we co-opt drinking songs for our anthems. At least the doggerel is saved by a spirited (forgive) self-mocking. Anyway, for three days been moving from darkest New Jersey to festive Connecticut. This may well be the land of Stevens, but (aye, here be irony), the lawyer who did my closing just happened to be W.C. Williams' grandnephew. Jeffrey In a message dated 8/2/01 11:58:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: > Just came across this, re. a recent thread: > > Has any major poet written a worse poem about America than ???The Gift > Outright???? It contains every part of Frost???s terrible sentiment for the > Land, America, the Past, for Ourselves, for the general myth that replaces > the mangled event???even the best line, ???To the land vaguely realizing > westward,??? drowns in the horror of all that is left unsaid. > > > --William Logan > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Aug 2 12:30:23 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 12:30:23 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Frost's Gift Outright Message-ID: <114.292b31a.289ada1f@cs.com> Logan's essay can be found at the New Criterion's website. It's quirky but interesting. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Aug 2 12:32:24 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 12:32:24 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Frost's Pauper Witch Message-ID: <10.104ecf5b.289ada98@cs.com> Anyone have any thoughts on Frost's "The Pauper Witch of Grafton"? Its companion piece, "The Witch of Coos," has attracted a bit of attention, but I don't think this one, which is weirdly compelling, has been written about much at all. It strikes me as one of Frost's few forays into rather dark sexual material. Maybe that's why it's been so often overlooked. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Aug 2 13:03:57 2001 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 18:03:57 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Show not tell? References: Message-ID: <002501c11b75$56487fc0$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3> From: "Amber Prentiss" > Somewhere in the long thread about revising, someone mentioned outgrowing > the advice to 'show, not tell.' So what did the phrase mean then that needed > outgrowing? Or - what does it mean? (This is trying not to be a stupid > question.) > -A Maybe this is a bit obvious, but doesn't the "show, not tell" statement go back to Henry James' Prefaces? My personal sense is that it goes back to the sixties (and mixes with the New Criticism's, "Never Biography!" credo). I grew up with it (mostly prose -- Wayne Booth's _The Rhetoric of Fiction_ springs to mind) but increasingly came to see it as an oversimplification. Like all absolutist statements, it begs for qualification. And like much else in the sixties, was a response to Prevailing Orthodoxy -- in this case, to the third-person narrator in fiction. Yesterday's wars ... Robin Hamilton From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Aug 2 13:07:23 2001 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 18:07:23 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Back to the Future References: <20.1a16fe7e.289ad1ff@aol.com> Message-ID: <002d01c11b75$9c2cf480$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3> > Henry "cold water" writes: > > << Blackmur is interested in how critics > bring their knowledge to bear, & their "amateur" responses to bear, in > ways that illuminate the poem without turning it into something it's not > . . . He's sensible: . . . he looks for what the art work does as art work, > as its main raison d'etre. >> > > As a "finished object"? > > Jan ... or even a verbal icon? Robin Hamilton From wasanthony at yahoo.com Thu Aug 2 13:14:19 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 10:14:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] How things sometimes get written Message-ID: <20010802171419.131.qmail@web12101.mail.yahoo.com> Thought I'd throw this into the mix. Tried to send it earlier but something's wormy out there. A Flash Fiction Ingredients: 1. a glass or two of ouzo, always a catalyst for me for whacko dreams 2. an ouzo-assisted dream 3. brain-tickling images and e-mails I save (not knowing why beyond the fact that they're "brain-tickling") Mix all of the above, wake in the morning with #2, whip through files with #2 as a magnet, which instantly attaches itself to #3. Write. - Jim ========================= > Wunderbar, K-------! Here's P---'s Memorial Day in Walpole, NH, > babelfished. (BTW, I've done this sort of thing by hand, so to speak, > but this program does it much, much faster. > > Hal > > The men in feathers/springs know ulteriorly horns. ========================= Men Without Feathers I could never tell him that a fly had landed on the tip of his penis. There we all were, naked on space-age blankets, using our knapsacks as pillows, the girls in their segment of the campfire perimeter. George had gone to sleep instantly on his back: on display, as it were. So, I had followed this evening fly's slow flight until it alighted. Maybe one of the girls was also awake, squinting, her eyes' hidden movement looking past her blurred left nipple until the fly rested on George's little helmet. It was kind of like a worn, flesh-color crayon, at least in the light of the dying campfire. When we awoke, my hat was still on my crotch, and George was on his right side, sleepily mooning me. The girls were also mooning me, like poster-size hearts or butterflys. "You didn't even twitch," I whispered, suspecting George was awake. "Huh?" "When that fly landed on your penis!," I whispered loudly. But now I felt stupid for letting out a secret I could never fully explain. "What are you guys yakking about?," Amanda asked, fully awake. She rolled over, her breasts a split-second behind her body's movement, and stared directly at George's crotch as his left hand made a lazy swipe in that direction. ~ ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From JforJames at aol.com Thu Aug 2 13:16:21 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 13:16:21 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Per Kent's Request Message-ID: Kent Johnson has asked me to announce to the list that he has requested that I unsub him rather than submit to a "message review" status. (Yesterday I'd put him in this status; whereby I would determine whether his messages went out to the list or not.) Note: I'd prefer the list not make a big deal over this. As a personal note from your list manager: Please bear in mind that I manage the list as a "hobby"; & I just can't spare the time to intervene constantly & to referee complaints regarding what I will call euphemistically "rough & ready" postings Secondly, I've changed the Welcome Message to NewPoetry to emphasize that the list manager & CATH are not responsible for the postings to this list. I don't want to be put in the position of the "list police." I will be passive, perhaps to a fault, and very slow to act. Jim F From Cadaly at aol.com Thu Aug 2 13:32:13 2001 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 13:32:13 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] mac low Message-ID: <8b.a2f20e9.289ae89d@aol.com> I for one yould be very interested in hearing more about Jackson Mac Low's revisions, Kathrine, if you have time... I know that some of my poems which use algorythms or concepts or findings (nice jewelry-making word) (but are not diastic) DO require a great deal of revision, perhaps more than would appear to be the case. Be well, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net From jholmes at boisestate.edu Thu Aug 2 14:14:34 2001 From: jholmes at boisestate.edu (Janet Holmes) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 12:14:34 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Blackmur, criticism, etc. Message-ID: I use Blackmur's criticism of Emily Dickinson when I teach her, though perhaps not as Henry and others would like. From LANGUAGE AS GESTURE: "No judgment is so persuasive as when it is disguised as a statement of facts. I think it is a fact that the failure and success of Emily Dickinson?s poetry were uniformly accidental largely because of the private and eccentric nature of her relations to the business of poetry. She was neither a professional poet nor an amateur; she was a private poet who wrote indefatigably as some women cook or knit. Her gift for words and the cultural predicament of her time drove her to poetry instead of antimacassars. Neither her personal education nor the habit of her society as she knew it ever gave her the least inkling that poetry is a rational and objective art and most so when the theme is self- expression." The bad reading, cultural assumptions, and downright hubris of this passage (and many others in Blackmur) is not, I think, "what poetry needs" just now. I'd suggest the two essays on Dickinson by Michael Ryan in his book A DIFFICULT GRACE as balance, if not as correctives. Janet Holmes http://ahsahtapress.boisestate.edu http://english.boisestate.edu/jholmes From moira_russell at hotmail.com Thu Aug 2 14:35:51 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 10:35:51 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Blackmur, criticism, etc. Message-ID: Janet quoted: >"(Dickinson)was was a private poet who wrote indefatigably as some women >cook or knit. Her gift for words and the cultural predicament of her time >drove her to poetry instead of antimacassars." grrrrrrrrrrrrrr. This is like a bad parody.... Isn't Blackmur one of the co-authors of "Understanding Poetry," one of the New Criterion ur-bibles? Didn't he say something like "A poem is like a pudding: one asks that it work"? (Leaving aside the question of how does a pudding _work_....) Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From tadrichards at prodigy.net Thu Aug 2 14:46:18 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 14:46:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Per Kent's Request References: Message-ID: <008501c11b83$6b015640$6801a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Jim -- you've got my support completely on these decisions -- both the fact that you made them and the fact that you didn't make them precipitously. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2001 1:16 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Per Kent's Request > Kent Johnson has asked me to announce to the > list that he has requested that I unsub him rather than > submit to a "message review" status. (Yesterday > I'd put him in this status; whereby I would determine > whether his messages went out to the list or not.) > > Note: I'd prefer the list not make a big deal over this. > > As a personal note from your list manager: Please bear > in mind that I manage the list as a "hobby"; & I just > can't spare the time to intervene constantly & to referee > complaints regarding what I will call euphemistically > "rough & ready" postings > > Secondly, I've changed the Welcome Message to > NewPoetry to emphasize that the list manager & > CATH are not responsible for the postings to this list. > I don't want to be put in the position of the "list police." > I will be passive, perhaps to a fault, and very slow to act. > Jim F > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Aug 2 15:06:14 2001 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 20:06:14 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Blackmur, criticism, etc. References: Message-ID: <007601c11b86$428d2b00$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3> > Isn't Blackmur one of the co-authors of "Understanding Poetry," one of the > New Criterion ur-bibles? Didn't he say something like "A poem is like a > pudding: one asks that it work"? (Leaving aside the question of how does a > pudding _work_....) > > Moira Russell > Seattle, WA As a snappy aside, _Understanding Poetry_ was a pop-for-the-natives New +Criticism+ bible [and Penn Warren and Cleanth Brooks were co-editors]. Shouldn't be hijacked by the post - L=A=N=G=U=E po "and now we have Goia as the apologist for Neo(American) Formalist" crap. These (and i do so +love+ repeating myself) are Old Wars ... New Criticism was given it's name by Ransom (who disliked it, but was the echt-formalist, that the NeoFormalists -- "No truth except in iambics" -- prefer to ignore). And there's [please, the Nation is large but it isn't totally everywhere] Peter Porter (hi, Australian folks, you there still?) who might gain the bays as the ultimate formalist (While Les Murray was doing Unspeakable Things to Australian Sheep). Uh, oh ... Signing off before I get banned ... (PS -- I +think+ the pudding crack was James on Dostoevsky or Dickens -- but I'm prepared to be corrected on this.) Robin Hamilton From AP201070 at BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU Thu Aug 2 15:14:06 2001 From: AP201070 at BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (Henry) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 15:14:06 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Back to the Future In-Reply-To: <20.1a16fe7e.289ad1ff@aol.com> Message-ID: <010802.152358.EDT.AP201070@BROWNVM.brown.edu> Maybe somebody more well-read in Blackmur could answer this question. But from the little I've read so far he hasn't gotten into all the New Critical chestnuts about teleology & autonomy. As I said before, he thinks that it can be useful to recognize "ulterior" aspects of an art work. Yes, the Blackmur quote about Dickinson is as dated as can be. But I wasn't making any big claims about "what poetry needs" at the moment. I brought him up because he formulated some ideas about what a critic does, & differentiated it from the work of a scholar or scientist or economist, with interesting examples, in his essay "The Critic's Job of Work". No, he didn't co-author "Understanding Poetry". Henry > >As a "finished object"? > >Jan >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Thu Aug 2 15:36:00 2001 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 20:36:00 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Back to the Future References: <010802.152358.EDT.AP201070@BROWNVM.brown.edu> Message-ID: <001701c11b8a$70ba9f40$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3> Henry: > Yes, the Blackmur quote about Dickinson is as dated as can be. The Blackmur-on-Dickinson is presumably pre-1955? NOTHING about ED before 1955 makes any sense, does it? +Shame+ on you!!! Robin From moira_russell at hotmail.com Thu Aug 2 15:47:04 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 11:47:04 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Blackmur, criticism, etc. Message-ID: >As a snappy aside, _Understanding Poetry_ was a pop-for-the-natives New >+Criticism+ bible [and Penn Warren and Cleanth Brooks were co-editors]. If we all must know, I remembered because Sylvia Plath won it as a prize in her senior year of high school, I think. New _Criticism,_ yeah, don't know how Criterion got in there for godsakes unless it was Sam referencing the Logan essay -- >New Criticism was given it's name by Ransom (who disliked it, but was the >echt-formalist, that the NeoFormalists -- "No truth except in iambics" -- >prefer to ignore). Wellllllllllllll, "NeoFormalists" covers a large bit of ground which includes people that aren't strictly metrical, as the Expansive Poetry & Music site frequently points out -- and then there are people like A.E. Stallings and Marilyn Hacker who obviously know a great deal of meter, but play around with it. And did Ransom dislike the name or New Criticism or what? And Peter Porter just had a piece excerpted in the Australian Book Review about the respective achievements of Plath and Hughes (he thought Plath was better). There, that's our 1000% recommended minimum reqirement of Plath for the day. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From moira_russell at hotmail.com Thu Aug 2 15:57:37 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 11:57:37 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Blackmur Message-ID: "In 1935 the publication of (Blackmur's) first volume of essays, The Double Agent, marked the beginning of what was to become known as the New Criticism" -http://mondrian.princeton.edu/CampusWWW/Companion/blackmur_richard_p.html Interesting article by R.V. Young here, if a bit fervent -http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9308/articles/young.html with an interesting paragraph: "At their best the New Critics stress not "mere form," but form as a structure of significance, an embodiment of human experience. By capturing human experience in words and isolating it from the flow of time-in other words, by creating aesthetic distance-the literary work of art furnishes unique and invaluable access to that experience. Thus, far from evincing a lack of interest in history, this view of literature strengthens the relation between the author and history by treating the literary work as a portal into the meaning of the ceaseless currents of the historical process." Moira Russell Seattle, WA Wise Wretch! with Pleasures too refin'd to please; With too much Spirit to be e'er at ease; With too much Quickness ever to be taught; With too much Thinking to have common Thought: You purchase Pain with all that Joy can give, And die of nothing but a Rage to live. -- Alexander Pope _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From moira_russell at hotmail.com Thu Aug 2 16:05:59 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 12:05:59 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fun Blackmur Factoid Message-ID: According to the Columbia Encyclopedia, he did not go to college (nothing disparaging here -- just interesting. How many critics today would be considered major or even considered if they did not go to college?). http://www.bartleby.com/65/bl/Blackmur.html Moira Russell Seattle, WA Wise Wretch! with Pleasures too refin'd to please; With too much Spirit to be e'er at ease; With too much Quickness ever to be taught; With too much Thinking to have common Thought: You purchase Pain with all that Joy can give, And die of nothing but a Rage to live. -- Alexander Pope _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From AP201070 at BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU Thu Aug 2 17:27:54 2001 From: AP201070 at BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (Henry) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 17:27:54 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Blackmur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <010802.173830.EDT.AP201070@BROWNVM.brown.edu> I like the RV Young quote. I don't know if Blackmur was part of what became New Critical dogma later on. Ironic that a high school grad would become one of the founders of the New Academy. He called himself an "amateur". The last essay in the book I'm reading (Form & Value in Modern Poetry, 1952), called "Tennyson's Scissors", is a kind of pantheon, ranking the major poets from 1912-1950. With definitive judgements that would be ruled out of court today, and that only a good amateur could produce. Definitive, but not dogmatic. His hero appears to have been Montaigne. Henry [p.s. Tennyson said he knew the quantity of every English vowel except those in the word "scissors".] On Thu, 02 Aug 2001 11:57:37 -0800 Moira Russell said: > >"In 1935 the publication of (Blackmur's) first volume of essays, The Double >Agent, marked the beginning of what was to become known as the New >Criticism" >-http://mondrian.princeton.edu/CampusWWW/Companion/blackmur_richard_p.html > >Interesting article by R.V. Young here, if a bit fervent >-http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9308/articles/young.html with an >interesting paragraph: > >"At their best the New Critics stress not "mere form," but form as a >structure of significance, an embodiment of human experience. By capturing >human experience in words and isolating it from the flow of time-in other >words, by creating aesthetic distance-the literary work of art furnishes >unique and invaluable access to that experience. Thus, far from evincing a >lack of interest in history, this view of literature strengthens the >relation between the author and history by treating the literary work as a >portal into the meaning of the ceaseless currents of the historical >process." > >Moira Russell >Seattle, WA > >Wise Wretch! with Pleasures too refin'd to please; >With too much Spirit to be e'er at ease; >With too much Quickness ever to be taught; >With too much Thinking to have common Thought: >You purchase Pain with all that Joy can give, >And die of nothing but a Rage to live. >-- Alexander Pope > >_________________________________________________________________ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From moira_russell at hotmail.com Thu Aug 2 18:14:12 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 14:14:12 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Blackmur Message-ID: >The last essay in the book I'm reading >(Form & Value in Modern Poetry, 1952), called "Tennyson's Scissors", >is a kind of pantheon, ranking the major poets from 1912-1950. >With definitive judgements that would be ruled out of court >today, and that only a good amateur could produce. Definitive, but >not dogmatic Well, come on, are you going to give us a hint about his rankings? No one will carp. Well, this is Nuevo-Po, so yes, someone probably will. But I'm interested. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Thu Aug 2 18:22:26 2001 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 18:22:26 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Blackmur Message-ID: I'm thinking about carping in advance. Somebody's gotta do it. Jeffrey In a message dated 8/2/01 6:15:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, moira_russell at hotmail.com writes: > Well, come on, are you going to give us a hint about his rankings? No one > will carp. Well, this is Nuevo-Po, so yes, someone probably will. But I'm > interested. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AP201070 at BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU Thu Aug 2 18:24:59 2001 From: AP201070 at BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (Henry) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 18:24:59 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Blackmur In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <010802.183004.EDT.AP201070@BROWNVM.brown.edu> Eh, it's always a letdown in the end, Moira. But you should experience the essay for yourself. Please get back to me after you... do. In the meantime, here's a clue: WBY TSE EP WS EEC MM the Violent Apocalypticists the [no-name transition poets] ...and looking ahead, the Younger [suicidal] generation... (Blackmur is down/up there with Hazlitt & co. & he knows it. All the better poets are of the School of John Donne.) Hank From AP201070 at BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU Thu Aug 2 18:38:51 2001 From: AP201070 at BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (Henry) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 18:38:51 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] re: blackmrrr Message-ID: <010802.184458.EDT.AP201070@BROWNVM.brown.edu> "mr" in ancient Egyptian meant "pyramid". Alistair Fowler has investigated the "pyramidal" numerology of WS's "dark lady" Sonnets. black mrrrrrrrr "That in black ink my love may still shine bright" (the qualified distance of John Donne) From moira_russell at hotmail.com Thu Aug 2 19:07:53 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 15:07:53 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Blackmur Message-ID: Jeffrey wrote: >I'm thinking about carping in advance. Somebody's gotta do it. And will that carp be medium rare or well done, sir? Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From moira_russell at hotmail.com Thu Aug 2 19:10:10 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 15:10:10 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Blackmur Message-ID: >Eh, it's always a letdown in the end, Moira. But you should experience the >essay for yourself. Please get back to me after you... do. oog. read poetic criticism? when i'm not in grad school? and it's not randall jarrell? hmmmmm. does he crack any jokes? >In the meantime, here's a clue: >WBY >TSE >EP yeats, eliot, and pound....right? >WS >EEC >MM ok, this is semi-cheating, because i know he liked ee cummings. i'm sorry, but i look at the initials mm and thinking marilyn monroe. unless it's merrill moore. >the Violent Apocalypticists >the [no-name transition poets] blake? >...and looking ahead, the Younger [suicidal] generation... i don't remember who it was that said if plath were alive now she would have been younger than allen ginsburg, but it was striking. moira russell seattle, wa (typing lowercaps to conserve hands) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Thu Aug 2 20:42:52 2001 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 20:42:52 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Blackmur Message-ID: <86.d85a5ae.289b4d8c@aol.com> My carps are rarely well done, but I manage cavils to perfection. Jeffrey In a message dated 8/2/01 7:08:34 PM Eastern Daylight Time, moira_russell at hotmail.com writes: > And will that carp be medium rare or well done, sir? > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From klvarnes at home.com Thu Aug 2 21:10:31 2001 From: klvarnes at home.com (Kathrine Varnes) Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2001 20:10:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] mac low In-Reply-To: <8b.a2f20e9.289ae89d@aol.com> Message-ID: > I for one would be very interested in hearing more about Jackson Mac Low's > revisions, Kathrine, if you have time... Thanks Catherine. We are reprinting, with Jena Osman's introduction to Procedural Verse, a "Ridiculous in Picadilly" -- the first in _The Virginia Woolf Poems_. Even though his procedure involves choosing a phrase from the source text (in this case, The Waves) and then working through it, letter by letter, as a sort of diagonal and sometimes lateral then zigzagging acrostic is maybe a good way to explain it. (I know, Catherine, that you're familiar with this, but others may not be.) Essentially, he takes the first word in the novel that starts with 'r' then the second word after the first that has 'i' as its second letter, and so on. So the first two stanzas are: ridiculous Piccadilly. end stain bookcase, reassuring brutally eating-house. Of course, the key is choosing a good source text and phrase. For a poem of this type, lineation, punctuation, and stanza breaks can be revised, but I don't remember them changing. The excerpt from "154 Forties" (included in Mark Wallace's section on predetermined avant garde forms) was not written in a procedural method, so the poems changed quite a bit, and as Mac Low notes, "were and are often revised in many ways, prosodical and sometimes lexical, often involving changes of emphasis and/or hyphenated syntactical or grammatical connections between contiguous words." Best to have it in his own words, yes? The revisions he sent me for that poem were extensive, but fascinating, since they had much to do, it seemed to me, with the rhythms of the poem as he wanted it spoken. He changed quite a few of his Hopkins-like accents, and I remember thinking how I'd like to hear him read both into a recorder and explain why one worked better than the other. As for exact changes, I'm in midst of "cleaning" my office, so I can't be more specific until (if?!) the dust settles . Kathrine From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Aug 2 23:18:19 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2001 23:18:19 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] New Anthology Message-ID: The new (3rd) edition of my anthology, Poetry: A Pocket Anthology, has just been published by Penguin Academics. I hope you'll take a look on amazon.com or at the Addison Wesley Longman website. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pihel_e at pipeline.com Fri Aug 3 08:33:14 2001 From: pihel_e at pipeline.com (Erik Pihel) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 08:33:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] clickable poems References: <10.104ecf5b.289ada98@cs.com> Message-ID: <00fc01c11c18$77acf120$9112393f@one> Please check out the new issue of Clickable Poems at: http://www.clickablepoems.com This issue features two new hypertexts plus: David Thoreen's sardonic take on interviewing at the MLA conference, three stunning poems by Jody Burke-Kaiser, and a series of haikus by James Roderick Burns. Erik Pihel pihel_e at pipeline.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From MillB at aol.com Fri Aug 3 09:24:44 2001 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 09:24:44 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Show not tell? Message-ID: <51.f1a6ee7.289c001c@aol.com> Jez I'm only 30 something, but feel really old, reading about someone who is not familiar with the "Show not Tell" philosophy. Next, maybe it will be 8 track tapes? What are those? Mill From mbmc3 at home.com Fri Aug 3 09:44:28 2001 From: mbmc3 at home.com (Michael McColl) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 09:44:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Show not tell? Message-ID: <20010803134554.UNLA1450.femail36.sdc1.sfba.home.com@[24.40.75.42]> --- Along with show don't tell, at least in fiction writing advice, came choosing the universal detail instead of the merely personal. Choosing the eccentric personal detail displayed lack of character; you hadn't transcended your writer-ego to become, like shakespeare, everything and nothing. At the same time the writer was counseled that the personal, at the deepest level, was universal. The contradiction was not even recognized. I wince at how I took so much of this kind of thing to heart. MM ---------- >From: MillB at aol.com >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Show not tell? >Date: Fri, 3 Aug, 2001, 9:24 AM > > Jez > > I'm only 30 something, but feel really old, reading about someone who is not > familiar with the "Show not Tell" philosophy. Next, maybe it will be 8 track > tapes? What are those? > > Mill > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames at aol.com Fri Aug 3 10:34:41 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 10:34:41 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Nova by Standard Schaefer Message-ID: Subj: Re: A review of NOVA in Publishers Weekly Date: 8/2/01 6:03:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time From: djmess at greeninteger.com (kiwi) In this week's Publishers Weekly (July 23, 2002, p. 70) there is a review of Nova, by Standard Schaefer. I've reprinted the review below. Once again, we offer subscribers of this list a 20% discount. Send a check with $1.25 for postage, made out to Sun & Moon Press, 6026 Wilshire Blvd., Los Angeles, CA 90036 Price $10.95 (112p), ISBN 1-55713-404-9 By turns bizarre, trendy and loveable, Schaefer's National Poetry Series-winning debut takes some of its bearings from the language writing of the '70s and '80s and jostles among their more recent, more lyrical and often racier heirs. Of these three sequences, "Fort" inches and backtracks toward a vivid, almost Faulknerian portrayal of spaces along the Mexico-U.S. border, "where aunts are obvious," Spanish is spoken and "there's a new south rising against the sliding glass / of a dead language." "Ovalness"attacks the modern economy and the roles of "employer" and "occupant," and cryptically warns "The bald one-- / will turn out badly." By far the longest sequence, "Nova Suite" interleaves angels, birds, cars, highways, "paper doilies," particle physicists, "atoms of a lost identity" and a web of mock-academic footnotes. Schaefer's title invokes at once America's nuclear program and its automobile industry, whose products behave like chemical elements-- "Saturns or Plymouths are inert," while a Chevy Nova (Spanish for "doesn't go") may bear cosmic dangers. The first two, shorter sequences are by for the stronger work here, and may be the most recently written. If so, they presage further lyrical damage to come. From wasanthony at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 10:52:21 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 07:52:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Nova by Standard Schaefer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010803145221.78058.qmail@web12107.mail.yahoo.com> --- JforJames at aol.com wrote: > Subj: Re: A review of NOVA in Publishers Weekly > Date: 8/2/01 6:03:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time > From: djmess at greeninteger.com (kiwi) > > In this week's Publishers Weekly (July 23, 2002, p. 70) Getting a little ahead of ourselves, are we? - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu Fri Aug 3 11:19:56 2001 From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Amber Prentiss) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 11:19:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Show not tell? Message-ID: What's the difference between a universal and a personal detail? Red pants vs. worn out red vinyl pants? -Amber -----Original Message----- From: Michael McColl To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 8/3/01 9:44 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Show not tell? --- Along with show don't tell, at least in fiction writing advice, came choosing the universal detail instead of the merely personal. Choosing the eccentric personal detail displayed lack of character; you hadn't transcended your writer-ego to become, like shakespeare, everything and nothing. At the same time the writer was counseled that the personal, at the deepest level, was universal. The contradiction was not even recognized. I wince at how I took so much of this kind of thing to heart. MM ---------- >From: MillB at aol.com >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Show not tell? >Date: Fri, 3 Aug, 2001, 9:24 AM > > Jez > > I'm only 30 something, but feel really old, reading about someone who is not > familiar with the "Show not Tell" philosophy. Next, maybe it will be 8 track > tapes? What are those? > > Mill > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From sd at debris.org.uk Fri Aug 3 11:22:01 2001 From: sd at debris.org.uk (steve duffy) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 16:22:01 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Per Kent's Request In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20010803141816.D433.SD@debris.org.uk> jim, you don't say why kent was submitted to review status. i don't want to make a big deal out of this but i do think it important that list policy is clear in relation to actions taken. i know that lists are not public spaces [they are "owned" spaces, with local laws] and that new-poetry has received the fall-out from events elsewhere, but even so, i'm becoming increasingly disturbed by what appears to be the banishment of controversial opinion from the spaces of poetics. thanks, steve on Thu, 2 Aug 2001 13:16:21 EDT JforJames at aol.com wrote: >> Kent Johnson has asked me to announce to the >> list that he has requested that I unsub him rather than >> submit to a "message review" status. (Yesterday >> I'd put him in this status; whereby I would determine >> whether his messages went out to the list or not.) >> >> Note: I'd prefer the list not make a big deal over this. >> >> As a personal note from your list manager: Please bear >> in mind that I manage the list as a "hobby"; & I just >> can't spare the time to intervene constantly & to referee >> complaints regarding what I will call euphemistically >> "rough & ready" postings >> >> Secondly, I've changed the Welcome Message to >> NewPoetry to emphasize that the list manager & >> CATH are not responsible for the postings to this list. >> I don't want to be put in the position of the "list police." >> I will be passive, perhaps to a fault, and very slow to act. >> Jim F o + . o dEbRiS <>< e sd at debris.org.uk . ><[[[[?> web http://www.debris.org.uk scattered_fragMents.l0ose_materiALs.etc o . / . . ||| . / .*-|/-* delete? |||||||||1|||||||||2|||||||||3|||||||||4|||||||||5|||||||||6||||||||7|| exit From JforJames at aol.com Fri Aug 3 11:21:06 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 11:21:06 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Nova by Standard Schaefer Message-ID: <5b.19a4f233.289c1b62@aol.com> In a message dated 8/3/01 10:54:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, wasanthony at yahoo.com writes: > Getting a little ahead of ourselves, are we? > > - Jim Get behind me, Future. F From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu Fri Aug 3 11:30:28 2001 From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Amber Prentiss) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 11:30:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Show not tell? Message-ID: I'm familiar with the three-word version of it. It just doesn't make any sense to me anymore. Show what instead of telling what? What's the difference between a showing thing and a telling thing? -Amber -----Original Message----- From: MillB at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 8/3/2001 9:24 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Show not tell? Jez I'm only 30 something, but feel really old, reading about someone who is not familiar with the "Show not Tell" philosophy. Next, maybe it will be 8 track tapes? What are those? Mill _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jdavis at panix.com Fri Aug 3 11:42:11 2001 From: jdavis at panix.com (Jordan Davis) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 11:42:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] What's the difference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Show: He came to the meeting at 9:07, took a chair out of view of the videocamera, slumped a little to the right, and slowly removed his sunglasses. Tell: He showed up at the meeting late and drunk and didn't seem to care what impression he was making. I suppose both ought to occur in what is known as standard good writing -- 100% phenomenology not much clearer than 100% didacticism, but doesn't the whole prospect jus' plain bore your pants off? Jordan On Fri, 3 Aug 2001, Amber Prentiss wrote: > > I'm familiar with the three-word version of it. It just doesn't make any > sense to me anymore. Show what instead of telling what? What's the > difference between a showing thing and a telling thing? > > -Amber > -----Original Message----- > From: MillB at aol.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: 8/3/2001 9:24 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Show not tell? > > Jez > > I'm only 30 something, but feel really old, reading about someone who is > not > familiar with the "Show not Tell" philosophy. Next, maybe it will be 8 > track > tapes? What are those? > > Mill > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From terran2 at mindspring.com Fri Aug 3 12:14:23 2001 From: terran2 at mindspring.com (shep) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 09:14:23 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mallarme on tape Message-ID: -- I've tried all over the Internet, called local and distal possible sources and have been unable to find a cassette or CD of Mallarme's poems being read in French. Can anyone help? Thanks shep From JforJames at aol.com Fri Aug 3 12:43:58 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 12:43:58 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Per Kent's Request Message-ID: Steve, I hope this doesn't set the list spinning again away from our defined topic: poetry. But I will tell what I can from my perspective (emphasis "my"): I believe I showed a a lot of forbearance in the hope Kent would blow off his steam about Poetryetc and settle back into the role of regular NewPoetry list citizen. (I use the word "citizen" because it implies a person who has both rights & responsibilities to his/her fellow citizens.) Secondly, I did go thru "a process", frontchannel and backchannel directly to Kent: 1) Mild Admonishments (both to Kent & others intent on engaging him in the Poetryetc spillover flap; 2) An Outright Rebuke; & 3) A Final Warning. But Kent was unable to heed my warning, so I put him in the "message review" status, with the suggestion that he might want to just unsub at this point. Which he did. Personally, as I've said, I have neither the time nor the inclination to be this list's cop. When I placed him in the "message review" status, I said to Kent, & I say to all on this list, "We know 'abusive' and 'excessive' posting when we see it." Finally, I wish Kent well. I hope he doesn't see me as a "list dictator"...if it comes to that, please unsub me. Finnegan From moira_russell at hotmail.com Fri Aug 3 12:52:34 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 08:52:34 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Mallarme on tape Message-ID: Daisy Aldan reads Mallarme http://www.skybluepress.com/mallarme.html http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0965236447/qid=996857485/sr=1-1/ref=sc_b_1/104-8094849-0535944 Moira Russell Seattle, WA Wise Wretch! with Pleasures too refin'd to please; With too much Spirit to be e'er at ease; With too much Quickness ever to be taught; With too much Thinking to have common Thought: You purchase Pain with all that Joy can give, And die of nothing but a Rage to live. -- Alexander Pope >From: shep >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: [New-Poetry] Mallarme on tape >Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 09:14:23 -0700 > > >-- >I've tried all over the Internet, called local and distal possible >sources and have been unable to find a cassette or CD of Mallarme's >poems being read in French. Can anyone help? >Thanks > shep >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Fri Aug 3 13:31:35 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 12:31:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Good Show, I Tell You Message-ID: Since I threw this particular chestnut into the fire, I suppose I could say a few words. I'd say that the "show, don't tell" rule, as it filtered down to creative writing classes in recent decades, probably had its most important origins in Imagism and modernist practice early in the past century. We find a surprising if momentary concord among many poets then: Pound ("go in fear of abstractions," "the natural object is always the adequate symbol" ), Williams ("no ideas but in things"), Stevens ("accuracy of observation is the equivalent of accuracy of thinking"), etc. Even Frost, in his early work, before he began surrendering to didacticism, is marvelously dramatic and presentational. All of this was, in turn, a revolt against the worst excesses of Victorian rhetoric, "emotional slither," as Pound famously put it. In time, "show, don't tell" (SDT) became an orthodoxy arguably as pernicious as Victorian slither--and Robert Pinsky even wrote a whole book (*The Situation of Poetry*) largely devoted to demolishing it. Of course, the careers of poets like Shakespeare, Milton and Dickinson had already sufficiently demolished SDT in its slogan-form. Obviously, none of the poets mentioned avoided abstract diction entirely (Williams was particularly fond of telling, seems to me), and few poets would want to. SDT was mostly a classroom convenience even at its best--a way to urge students toward more vivid diction, dramatic detail, and so forth. Anyone who's taught beginners knows that trite and abstract language/thinking is often a big problem. As several have noted, you can soon get into a definitional mess when you attempt to draw a line between a phrase that shows and one that tells. This was a large part of Pinsky's argument, that all language is inherently abstract. He says something to the effect that "Robert's foot" and "Robert's large dirty foot" are equally "abstract"--the second term merely adding categories. As a teacher, however, it still makes sense to me to notice a difference between the usual novice diction: my heart fills with powerful emotions and something more tasty: I heard a fly buzz when I died One way to describe the difference between these two lines is to say (with due qualification, ho hum), that the second one "shows" us more, uses a dramatic action to begin to body forth those powerful emotions rather than simply slapping a relatively abstract (and vague) label on them. David Graham __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From moira_russell at hotmail.com Fri Aug 3 14:20:41 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 10:20:41 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Good Show, I Tell You Message-ID: I would agree with David's idea that "show don't tell" is advice mostly suited to beginners (although Floating Abstractions like those in Auden's later poetry show up in all classes). One interesting exercise is to compare haiku written by masters and haiku written by Westerners beginning to attempt the form. There's a clear and powerful difference between being able to communicate something -- a feeling, an experience, even an Abstract Idea -- in sharp, interesting detail as opposed to vague language which only feels around whatever the writer's trying to communicate and doesn't have anything for the reader to hold onto. I think "show don't tell" got beaten into the ground by teachers exhausted by short stories in creative writing classes but it remains a useful dictum. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From sd at debris.org.uk Fri Aug 3 14:21:56 2001 From: sd at debris.org.uk (steve duffy) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 19:21:56 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Per Kent's Request In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20010803184735.C289.SD@debris.org.uk> jim, thanks for your generous response. the chase across four lists raises some very interesting questions with regard to the nature of the space of poetics, but i'm not suggesting that the list get into a spin about it. i had no intention of suggesting that your actions were dictatorial and hope you don't feel that i was implying heavyhandedness by asking my question. regards, steve on Fri, 3 Aug 2001 12:43:58 EDT JforJames at aol.com wrote: >> Steve, >> I hope this doesn't set the list spinning again away from >> our defined topic: poetry. But I will tell what I can from >> my perspective (emphasis "my"): I believe I showed a >> a lot of forbearance in the hope Kent would blow off his >> steam about Poetryetc and settle back into the role of >> regular NewPoetry list citizen. (I use the word "citizen" >> because it implies a person who has both rights & >> responsibilities to his/her fellow citizens.) Secondly, I did >> go thru "a process", frontchannel and backchannel directly to >> Kent: 1) Mild Admonishments (both to Kent & others intent >> on engaging him in the Poetryetc spillover flap; 2) An Outright >> Rebuke; & 3) A Final Warning. But Kent was unable to heed my >> warning, so I put him in the "message review" status, with the >> suggestion that he might want to just unsub at this point. >> Which he did. >> Personally, as I've said, I have neither the time nor the >> inclination to be this list's cop. When I placed him in the >> "message review" status, I said to Kent, & I say >> to all on this list, "We know 'abusive' and 'excessive' >> posting when we see it." >> Finally, I wish Kent well. I hope he doesn't see me as >> a "list dictator"...if it comes to that, please unsub me. >> Finnegan o + . o dEbRiS <>< e sd at debris.org.uk . ><[[[[?> web http://www.debris.org.uk scattered_fragMents.l0ose_materiALs.etc o . / . . ||| . / .*-|/-* delete? |||||||||1|||||||||2|||||||||3|||||||||4|||||||||5|||||||||6||||||||7|| exit From Cadaly at aol.com Fri Aug 3 15:04:09 2001 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 15:04:09 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] mac low Message-ID: I have the original Virginia Woolf Poems and brought it into class last Tues.! I was doing acrostic, mesostic, diastic. There's one of the Forties at Academy of American Poets, so's folks can see the accents, and at epc, a recording of MacLow reading; I have an Anne Tardos book; she's done some cyberpoetry as well. I want to hear more after that office is clean. Catherine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From languagethief at yahoo.com Fri Aug 3 17:18:51 2001 From: languagethief at yahoo.com (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 14:18:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Good Show, I Tell You In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010803211851.14762.qmail@web12206.mail.yahoo.com> Who are we saying ?show don?t tell? to? Experienced poets who know that both showing and telling are in the poet?s arsenal, and either do or do not have the resources to use them to their best advantage? Or students who still think of poetry solely as an way to express their feelings, and who really do need to learn this concept. Here?s an exercise I use in undergraduate workshops. It?s essentially a show vs tell exercise, but I call it ?tired words? vs. ?working words,? and it goes like this. Tired words are words that have been used too often, or are too generic, or too vague, to bring any working energy with them into a poem. Working words are the other kind ? words that have a spark of life, that bring a piece of their world with them into the poem. There?s no hard and fast rule about what makes a tired word, or a working word. And there are probably some words that are neutral -- tired in some contexts, working in others. But look at these two groupings. I?ve taken pretty typical student poems, and two poems by Billy Collins, and broken them down into parts of speech, NOUNS Student poems: agony arcs beauty chants chuckle cold death dreams eternity face feeling funeral heat language laughter moonlight peace sea shadows silence sun thoughts water way wind woman Collins poems: Atlantic beach bench bottoms calendar crowd drawings ears exhaust pipe feet fish garage holiday mechanic murkiness pinup sound Spain surface tools wall water waterspouts wave weight whales Atlantic beach bench bottoms calendar crowd drawings ears exhaust pipe feet fish garage holiday mechanic murkiness pinup sound Spain surface tools wall water waterspouts wave weight whales VERBS: Student list: blow come dying falling hides lies mar meets misting sailing saying screaming settling shining sings sitting soaring think undermining whisper Collins list: appearing checking clear disappearing feel hammering holding imagine look make out ringing sleep stepping thinking try wait walking MODIFIERS Student List: airy asunder balanced bitter cruelest delicate elaborate endless finally frantic frosty gently incomplete most softly sublime sweet tumultuous utterly Collins list dense first local rocking shifting I took these lists, and set up some ratios: Ratio of nouns to modifiers Student list: 26-19 Collins list: 26-5 Ratio of concrete to abstract nouns: Student list: 12-14 Collins list: 22-4 Ratio of transitive to intransitive verbs: Student list: 7-14 Collins list: 7-10 The last ratio I set up was what I called Sensory vs. Quality modifiers. Someone probably has a better name for this. Modifiers that tell us more about the sensory nature of a poem, vs modifiers that describe an emotional or spiritual or philosophical quality. That came out like this: Student list: 2-17 Collins list: 5-0 I doubt that these ratios surprise anyone. But they make a point to the students. And while I try to never actually use words ?show don?t tell,? I do talk about tired words and working words, and I do try to point it out when my students start using too many abstract nouns and ?quality? adjectives. Of course, these are part of our language, and they?re part of what we use. I would never suggest that young writers banish them from their writing (well, sometimes I tell them to banish adverbs). Tad Richards __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Aug 3 18:28:59 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 18:28:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Good Show, I Tell You References: <20010803211851.14762.qmail@web12206.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3B6B25AB.7887@nut-n-but.net> Fun exercise. Out of curiosity, I used it on the first two poems in my only published collection of textual poems, Of Poem: NOUNS echoings Stevens Roethke Hughes thought day Crazy Jane ardors feathers words fingers genitals voice silence (2 times) Poem (name of poem's persona) syntax dependency subway lungs thus (used as noun) car princesses axis willow lyricule April way Sappho 2 in common with students, 0 in common with Collins VERBS: was set faltered light up racketing shedding farting princed struggling tried ascend starts yellows fraying preconcepted laughing 0 in common with either MODIFIERS fragmentary misslept vagrant one untrellised occasional eventually always disciplinary so unurgent all-yestering his Ratio of nouns to modifiers > Student list: 26-19 > Collins list: 26-5 Grumman list: 29-12 > Ratio of concrete to abstract nouns: > > Student list: 12-14 > Collins list: 22-4 Grumman list: 22-7 (but I'm not sure my idea of an abstract noun is the same as Tad's; I counted "thought" as abstract because I think he did but I don't really consider it abstract) > Ratio of transitive to intransitive verbs: > > Student list: 7-14 > Collins list: 7-10 Grumman list: 7-9 > The last ratio I set up was what I called Sensory vs. > Quality modifiers. Someone probably has a better name > for this. Modifiers that tell us more about the > sensory nature of a poem, vs modifiers that describe > an emotional or spiritual or philosophical quality. > That came out like this: > > Student list: 2-17 > Collins list: 5-0 Grumman list: 4-8 (but I'm not sure how to classify several words) That was fun. Too many other variables to mean much. Makes me wonder about use of prepositions. I love prepositions. Avoids, understandably in classes like Tad's probably are, use of form, syntax, typography, word-tones, etc., to show not tell. But I think Tad's exercise should be very effective for inexperienced poets. --Bob G. From duemer at clarkson.edu Fri Aug 3 21:35:57 2001 From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 21:35:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Back to the Future References: <010802.152358.EDT.AP201070@BROWNVM.brown.edu> Message-ID: <01fa01c11c85$d103cd80$18724342@twcny.rr.com> Henry, I've been looking for my volume of Blackmur essays, but we've been painting here & so things have been stacked in sundry places. It's been a long time, but I tend to recognize the picture you have been presenting. There is a lack of dogmatism in B's responses to the writers he discusses that is very attractive--maybe that's what "amateur" means. Also, I recognized a long time ago the weird parallels between language theory & the New Crit. The idea of the autonomy of language can apparently take one in divergent political directions. Somehow (taking a leap), this puts me in mind of a colleague's remark years ago that deconstruction is "the high culture of Reaganism." jd ====================== Joseph Duemer School of Liberal Arts, 5750 Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699 315.268.3967 ====================== From groggydays at hotmail.com Fri Aug 3 22:19:02 2001 From: groggydays at hotmail.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 03:19:02 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Per Kent's Request References: <20010803184735.C289.SD@debris.org.uk> Message-ID: Ok Steve and with apologies to Jim for mentioning anything on this subject yet again, but I really am getting fed up with all this double-talk. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the Poetry Etc blow-up Kent has persisted in sending some of the most vilely abusive messages to a scatter of whoever happens not to support him and I cannot but laugh ironically at notions of free speech in this respect. Especially as everything seems to have been destined for magazine publication in the first place. Too, I am very mindful of a phrase in VeRT, y'know, _that_ issue, the one where I and others are portrayed in, Kent's unforgettable remark , a 'good-humoured parody', by Jacques Debrot, as sexual perverts who use poetry-lists as a means to gratification, that phrase, Andrew Felsinger's I think, which characterizes people who disagreed with Kent as a 'conservative establishment'. Laugh I could have cried. That includes ME! I am for instance a middle-aged soon to be redundant telephone operator who lives in a housing society tower block coffin-sized flat and have absolutely no clout with the literary establishment. The wicked Alison Croggon, for example, can vie with me in poverty and I love the notion of a nicely salaried US academic like Kent, even if he does teach at a rural college, characterizing the likes of us as either an establishment or conservative. What are you Steve? David Bircumshaw ----- Original Message ----- From: "steve duffy" To: Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 7:21 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Per Kent's Request > > jim, thanks for your generous response. > > the chase across four lists raises some very interesting questions with > regard to the nature of the space of poetics, but i'm not suggesting > that the list get into a spin about it. > > i had no intention of suggesting that your actions were dictatorial and > hope you don't feel that i was implying heavyhandedness by asking my > question. > > regards, steve > > on Fri, 3 Aug 2001 12:43:58 EDT > JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > >> Steve, > >> I hope this doesn't set the list spinning again away from > >> our defined topic: poetry. But I will tell what I can from > >> my perspective (emphasis "my"): I believe I showed a > >> a lot of forbearance in the hope Kent would blow off his > >> steam about Poetryetc and settle back into the role of > >> regular NewPoetry list citizen. (I use the word "citizen" > >> because it implies a person who has both rights & > >> responsibilities to his/her fellow citizens.) Secondly, I did > >> go thru "a process", frontchannel and backchannel directly to > >> Kent: 1) Mild Admonishments (both to Kent & others intent > >> on engaging him in the Poetryetc spillover flap; 2) An Outright > >> Rebuke; & 3) A Final Warning. But Kent was unable to heed my > >> warning, so I put him in the "message review" status, with the > >> suggestion that he might want to just unsub at this point. > >> Which he did. > >> Personally, as I've said, I have neither the time nor the > >> inclination to be this list's cop. When I placed him in the > >> "message review" status, I said to Kent, & I say > >> to all on this list, "We know 'abusive' and 'excessive' > >> posting when we see it." > >> Finally, I wish Kent well. I hope he doesn't see me as > >> a "list dictator"...if it comes to that, please unsub me. > >> Finnegan > > o > + . o > dEbRiS <>< > e sd at debris.org.uk . ><[[[[?> > web http://www.debris.org.uk > scattered_fragMents.l0ose_materiALs.etc o > . / . . ||| . / .*-|/-* delete? > |||||||||1|||||||||2|||||||||3|||||||||4|||||||||5|||||||||6||||||||7|| > exit > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From AP201070 at BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU Fri Aug 3 22:55:57 2001 From: AP201070 at BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (Henry) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 22:55:57 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Back to the Future In-Reply-To: <01fa01c11c85$d103cd80$18724342@twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <010803.230517.EDT.AP201070@BROWNVM.brown.edu> Joseph, I think one of the keys to Blackmur's open-mindedness (in the midst of the datedness...) is that he recognizes an affinity between what he calls the "preconscious" impulse that leads to poetry, and the instinctive response of its readers. I think he would agree with Kant & Greenberg that a taste for the beautiful is something that HAPPENS to us, is sui generis, has its own role to play in the larger moral economy of civilization... & it's the curiousity about that experience, multiplied in the particular curiousities about the actualities of individual poems, that makes for good criticism. I'm not going to be a New Criterionist however and negate all those "ulterior" social/spiritual realities. Neither does Blackmur... Henry From moira_russell at hotmail.com Fri Aug 3 23:39:11 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 19:39:11 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Back to the Future Message-ID: >I'm not going to be a New Criterionist however and negate all those >"ulterior" social/spiritual realities. Neither does Blackmur... Meant seriously: what is the difference between a New Criterionist and New Criticism? Are they related? Is it like sexing chicks or something? And could you maybe quote a few paragraphs from Blackmur? I haven't been able to find any of his criticism online, and the UW library has a nasty habit of closing at 5 PM on Fridays and I have an equally nasty habit of forgetting (denying) this. I think I get a good idea of him from your descriptions, but it is always good to have some of the original source. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Fri Aug 3 23:46:50 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2001 22:46:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Frost's Pauper Witch/ Jarrell In-Reply-To: <10.104ecf5b.289ada98@cs.com> Message-ID: Happily, Sam's remark sent me back to my shelf of Frost, where I was a little surprised to find that Christopher Clausen's very interesting 1980 essay on "Robert Frost's Marriage Group" did not even mention the "Pauper Witch," as my dim memory told me it had. Clausen's thesis divides Frost's poems on love & marriage much too neatly into portrayals of "ideal" and "unhappy" marriages, I think, but he has some good things to say about some of the complexities in the unhappy poems--such as "Home Burial." Frost's portraits of women have been often enough praised, and I'd say that there are rather a lot that touch in various ways on dark psychological material, very gender-charged if not always explicitly sexual. Off the top of my head: in addition to "Home Burial" and the "Pauper Witch," there's "The Hill Wife," "The Subverted Flower," "A Servant To Servants," "The Housekeeper," "The Fear," and of course the more famous "Witch of Coos." And am I the only one to see some rather disturbed/disturbing sexual (homoerotic) undertones in "A Hundred Collars"? In the face of such poems as I've just listed, it beats me how Frost can still be considered, in some circles, as an avuncular lightweight nature poet and crackerbox philosopher. Yes, he wrote some very tiresome stuff in his later career, but I seldom hear critics holding "Practical Cats" against T. S. Eliot. . . . In any case, I was soon re-reading Randall Jarrell (always a pleasure) on Frost--*his* essay on "Home Burial" is very nearly the best piece of close reading I've ever encountered. And sure enough, he has some high praise for the "Pauper Witch" in both Frost essays in *Poetry & The Age*. He loves the ending of "Pauper Witch" particularly, and notes "I sometime murmur to myself, in a perverse voice, that there is more sexuality there than in several hothouses full of Dylan Thomas; and of course, there is love, there." Jarrell's listing of the best Frost poems in these essays has--for me, at least--stood the test of time very well. And some of the poems he singled out as relatively neglected have since gained in reputation, largely due to Jarrell. The current thread on Blackmur and criticism also made me think of Jarrell, for I find I re-read his essays more often than those of any other critic, past or present. I think that, as I age, the quality of his essays I most enjoy is one that is often singled out as their weakness: his impressionism, his utter lack of system. With nothing but taste and enthusiasm, he got things more right than most critics ever do, and his essays still sparkle in style as well. I like some of Blackmur well enough, but Jarrell's another kind of "amateur" entirely. David Graham _______________ >Anyone have any thoughts on Frost's "The Pauper Witch of Grafton"? Its >companion piece, "The Witch of Coos," has attracted a bit of attention, >but I >don't think this one, which is weirdly compelling, has been written about >much at all. It strikes me as one of Frost's few forays into rather dark >sexual material. Maybe that's why it's been so often overlooked. __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From moira_russell at hotmail.com Sat Aug 4 00:08:51 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2001 20:08:51 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Towing, Shelling Message-ID: It came to my mind recently that James Merrill (believe someone mentioned Wallace Stevens earlier) is yet another poet who seems quite comfortable with abstract themes and ideas in poetry -- in fact quite a lot of the things in Merrill's poetry, although presented in quite exact "thingness," turn out to have depths of abstraction in them, like looking through water at objects near the bottom of a pool. Elizabeth Bishop also strikes me this same way, although her poetry *appears* both thematically simple and emotionally oblique -- a stratagem, I think. Moira Russell Seattle, WA Wise Wretch! with Pleasures too refin'd to please; With too much Spirit to be e'er at ease; With too much Quickness ever to be taught; With too much Thinking to have common Thought: You purchase Pain with all that Joy can give, And die of nothing but a Rage to live. -- Alexander Pope _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From AP201070 at BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU Sat Aug 4 00:14:25 2001 From: AP201070 at BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (Henry) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 00:14:25 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Towing, Shelling In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <010804.001635.EDT.AP201070@BROWNVM.brown.edu> it's a beautiful stratagem, Moira. It's the most pleasurable strategem. a stratagem that is biblical, 4-fold, allegorical, deep, witty. it's what keeps a lot of sad poets going, & wise poets too. it's a very very old stratagem. henry From AP201070 at BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU Sat Aug 4 00:20:31 2001 From: AP201070 at BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (Henry) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 00:20:31 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Back to the Future In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <010804.003130.EDT.AP201070@BROWNVM.brown.edu> The New Criterionists are a pack of trust-fund hounds bent on re-establish- ing the best of the Gilded Age for themselves. The New Critics were a bunch of talented litterateurs (REALLY talented) in desperate need of jobs during the Depression (the modern University was invented to provide for them). a sample of Blackmur: "Besides the Apocalyptic school, and related to it closely, there was another school of anti-intelligence (pro-culture and self-verbal varieties) who filled the little magazines of the 20s and early 30s, together with the attics and bars, with their random spontaneity and arbitrary rites on words. They got rid of too much of their reason, and as a result they effervesced rather than expressed, and what is left is flat. Nameless they shall be here; they belonged only to their principal journal _transition_. What was wrong with them is clear when you see how weak is their imitation of Apollinaire, Aragon, Cocteau, Soupault, and how great their misunderstanding of Mallarme, Rilke, Joyce, Kafka, and Pirandello; all men who longing to be freed from reason had a kind of bottom supply of it. Neither the English nor the Americans have ever been very good at this sort of thing. Let us say that we have not so much of reason that we can afford to lose any of it; we need it to make our nonsense real as well as genuine; and one would say that in this respect prosody was a form of reason." from "Lord Tennyson's Scissors", 1951 Ironic (& the irony works both ways) that this appears just before the advent of the New York School, who WERE "very good at it". Henry From sd at debris.org.uk Sat Aug 4 15:41:59 2001 From: sd at debris.org.uk (steve duffy) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 20:41:59 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Per Kent's Request In-Reply-To: References: <20010803184735.C289.SD@debris.org.uk> Message-ID: <20010804203621.7386.SD@debris.org.uk> david, i was one those british-poets subscribers whose messages appeared in edited form in the zine _vert_. i was *not* approached for permission. as for what i am ... it's no secret - i'm someone who witnessed those events on british-poets which lead to kent being suspended. i'm also someone who would like to see the end to that discord, but i don't think sweeping the whole thing under the carpet is the solution. i've no intention of sending this list into a spin. i suggest that if you wish to discuss those events then we do so backchannel. we could also discuss what we each are, if you wish - i'm sure my views on david bircumshaw and other matters would surprise you [and i'm not being sarcastic here]. regards, steve on Sat, 4 Aug 2001 03:19:02 +0100 "David Bircumshaw" wrote: >> Ok Steve >> >> and with apologies to Jim for mentioning anything on this subject >> yet again, but I really am getting fed up with all this double-talk. >> Whatever the rights and wrongs of the Poetry Etc blow-up Kent has >> persisted in sending some of the most vilely abusive messages to a >> scatter of whoever happens not to support him and I cannot but laugh >> ironically at notions of free speech in this respect. >> >> Especially as everything seems to have been destined for magazine >> publication in the first place. >> >> Too, I am very mindful of a phrase in VeRT, y'know, _that_ issue, >> the one where I and others are portrayed in, Kent's unforgettable >> remark , a 'good-humoured parody', by Jacques Debrot, as sexual >> perverts who use poetry-lists as a means to gratification, that >> phrase, Andrew Felsinger's I think, which characterizes people who >> disagreed with Kent as a 'conservative establishment'. >> >> Laugh I could have cried. >> >> That includes ME! >> >> I am for instance a middle-aged soon to be redundant telephone >> operator who lives in a housing society tower block coffin-sized flat >> and have absolutely no clout with the literary establishment. >> The wicked Alison Croggon, for example, can vie with me in poverty >> and I love the notion of a nicely salaried US academic like Kent, >> even if he does teach at a rural college, characterizing the likes of >> us as either an establishment or conservative. >> >> What are you Steve? >> >> >> David Bircumshaw >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "steve duffy" >> To: >> Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 7:21 PM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Per Kent's Request >> >> >> > >> > jim, thanks for your generous response. >> > >> > the chase across four lists raises some very interesting questions with >> > regard to the nature of the space of poetics, but i'm not suggesting >> > that the list get into a spin about it. >> > >> > i had no intention of suggesting that your actions were dictatorial and >> > hope you don't feel that i was implying heavyhandedness by asking my >> > question. >> > >> > regards, steve >> > >> > on Fri, 3 Aug 2001 12:43:58 EDT >> > JforJames at aol.com wrote: >> > >> > >> Steve, >> > >> I hope this doesn't set the list spinning again away from >> > >> our defined topic: poetry. But I will tell what I can from >> > >> my perspective (emphasis "my"): I believe I showed a >> > >> a lot of forbearance in the hope Kent would blow off his >> > >> steam about Poetryetc and settle back into the role of >> > >> regular NewPoetry list citizen. (I use the word "citizen" >> > >> because it implies a person who has both rights & >> > >> responsibilities to his/her fellow citizens.) Secondly, I did >> > >> go thru "a process", frontchannel and backchannel directly to >> > >> Kent: 1) Mild Admonishments (both to Kent & others intent >> > >> on engaging him in the Poetryetc spillover flap; 2) An Outright >> > >> Rebuke; & 3) A Final Warning. But Kent was unable to heed my >> > >> warning, so I put him in the "message review" status, with the >> > >> suggestion that he might want to just unsub at this point. >> > >> Which he did. >> > >> Personally, as I've said, I have neither the time nor the >> > >> inclination to be this list's cop. When I placed him in the >> > >> "message review" status, I said to Kent, & I say >> > >> to all on this list, "We know 'abusive' and 'excessive' >> > >> posting when we see it." >> > >> Finally, I wish Kent well. I hope he doesn't see me as >> > >> a "list dictator"...if it comes to that, please unsub me. >> > >> Finnegan >> > >> > o >> > + . o >> > dEbRiS <>< >> > e sd at debris.org.uk . ><[[[[?> >> > web http://www.debris.org.uk >> > scattered_fragMents.l0ose_materiALs.etc o >> > . / . . ||| . / .*-|/-* delete? >> > |||||||||1|||||||||2|||||||||3|||||||||4|||||||||5|||||||||6||||||||7|| >> > exit >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New-Poetry mailing list >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry o + . o dEbRiS <>< e sd at debris.org.uk . ><[[[[?> web http://www.debris.org.uk scattered_fragMents.l0ose_materiALs.etc o . / . . ||| . / .*-|/-* delete? |||||||||1|||||||||2|||||||||3|||||||||4|||||||||5|||||||||6||||||||7|| exit From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Sat Aug 4 17:05:19 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 16:05:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Stafford query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Geez, I feel like a bad teacher, answering my own question, but. . . since no one seemed to know the Stafford line in question, and I'm sure many have been losing sleep over it, I will reveal that a return to my home library, followed by extensive research, has turned up the line in question. It's in "Connections," which was originally published in *West of Your City*; first line: "Ours is a low, curst, under-swamp land." And the line I mangled actually reads "And if we purify the pond, the lilies die." No, I'm not going to type out the whole thing. Not unless you beg. . . . David Graham ___________________ >Can anyone tell me which poem by William Stafford includes the line "if you >purify the pond, the lilies die"? I'm quoting from memory and may have >that wrong. . . . > >Thanks. > >David Graham > >__________________ __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Sat Aug 4 17:22:36 2001 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 17:22:36 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Stafford query Message-ID: <67.17d55dda.289dc19c@aol.com> . . . and quoted without attribution by Admiral Stockdale in the 1992 Vice Presidential debates (w/ Quail, et al.). Won't reproduce the whole Stockdalean plum. Not unless you beg . . . Jeffrey In a message dated 8/4/01 5:06:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, grahamd at mail.ripon.edu writes: > It's in "Connections," which was originally published in *West of Your > City*; first line: "Ours is a low, curst, under-swamp land." And the > line I mangled actually reads "And if we purify the pond, the lilies die." > > No, I'm not going to type out the whole thing. Not unless you beg. . . . > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From duemer at clarkson.edu Sat Aug 4 18:06:36 2001 From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 18:06:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Back to the Future References: <010803.230517.EDT.AP201070@BROWNVM.brown.edu> Message-ID: <009301c11d31$bb42ba40$18724342@twcny.rr.com> Henry, I'm very taken with the idea that a taste for the beautiful is something that happens to us as human beings. A taste for the beautiful is quite different, of course, from a taste for the pretty, which is one of the things poetry sets out to subvert. But we might also say that poetry sets out to subvert a taste for the ugly. As for Blackmur's stance toward poetry, as you have described it & as I dimly recall it, his amateur status allows him to be eclectic in applying critical formulae--he doesn't have a professional commitment to a particular stance. This is a kind of pluralism that runs deep in American culture, finding its most ardent exponent in William James. jd ====================== Joseph Duemer School of Liberal Arts, 5750 Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699 315.268.3967 ====================== From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Sat Aug 4 18:35:17 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 17:35:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Taste for the beautiful In-Reply-To: <009301c11d31$bb42ba40$18724342@twcny.rr.com> References: <010803.230517.EDT.AP201070@BROWNVM.brown.edu> Message-ID: Nothing directly to do with Blackmur, no, but here's a poem called "Beauty" by B. H. Fairchild, who has a taste for the Big Subjects--I previously praised his "Body and Soul," which in addition to those abstractions, is about baseball. "Beauty," is, among other things, about the fear of beauty. Text available at this web site: http://gladiola.umfacad.maine.edu/~ajb/beauty.htm Fairchild's collection *The Art of the Lathe* has been my bedside book for a month or more, and I'm not tired of it yet. He shows, he tells, he crawls on his belly like a reptile. . . . David Graham ________________________ >Henry, >I'm very taken with the idea that a taste for the beautiful is something >that happens to us as human beings. A taste for the beautiful is quite >different, of course, from a taste for the pretty, which is one of the >things poetry sets out to subvert. But we might also say that poetry sets >out to subvert a taste for the ugly. > >As for Blackmur's stance toward poetry, as you have described it & as I >dimly recall it, his amateur status allows him to be eclectic in applying >critical formulae--he doesn't have a professional commitment to a particular >stance. This is a kind of pluralism that runs deep in American culture, >finding its most ardent exponent in William James. > >jd __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From moira_russell at hotmail.com Sat Aug 4 19:28:58 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Sat, 04 Aug 2001 15:28:58 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Stafford query Message-ID: David Graham wrote: >No, I'm not going to type out the whole thing. Not unless you beg. . . . Well, I don't beg. But I do say please? Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From wasanthony at yahoo.com Sat Aug 4 19:49:32 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2001 16:49:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Back to the Future In-Reply-To: <009301c11d31$bb42ba40$18724342@twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <20010804234932.86074.qmail@web12101.mail.yahoo.com> --- Joseph Duemer wrote: > Henry, > I'm very taken with the idea that a taste for the beautiful is > something > that happens to us as human beings. A taste for the beautiful is > quite > different, of course, from a taste for the pretty, which is one of > the > things poetry sets out to subvert. But we might also say that poetry > sets > out to subvert a taste for the ugly. > > As for Blackmur's stance toward poetry, as you have described it & as > I > dimly recall it, his amateur status allows him to be eclectic in > applying > critical formulae--he doesn't have a professional commitment to a > particular > stance. Under what circumstances would one have "a professional commitment to a particular stance." - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From mbales at cybergate.net Sun Aug 5 09:04:49 2001 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 09:04:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Surprised by joy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David Graham: > Having said all this, I would also like to see some examples of > *relatively* joyful poems that listmembers find compelling. Running 1.1933 (North Caldwell, New Jersey) Richard Wilbur What were we playing? Was it prisoner's base? I ran with whacking keds Down the cart-road past Rickard's place, And where it dropped beside the tractor-sheds Leapt out into the air above a blurred Terrain, through jolted light, Took two hard lopes, and at the third Spanked off a hummock-side exactly right, And made the turn, and with delighted strain Sprinted across the flat By the bull-pen, and up the lane. Thinking of happiness, I think of that. mbales at cybergate.net http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From languagethief at yahoo.com Sun Aug 5 10:27:43 2001 From: languagethief at yahoo.com (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 07:27:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Surprised by joy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010805142743.13789.qmail@web12207.mail.yahoo.com> A lovely poem, and -- again -- one with that elegaic feeling that so often accompanies the art of joy. Ron Swoboda said it as well as anyone. When they interviewed him in the locker room after the Mets won the '69 World Series. Paraphrasing from memory, but pretty close to right. This is the happiest moment of my life, and it's also the saddest, because I can already feel it slipping into the past. Tad Richards --- Marcus Bales wrote: > David Graham: > > Having said all this, I would also like to see > some examples of > > *relatively* joyful poems that listmembers find > compelling. > > > Running > 1.1933 > (North Caldwell, New Jersey) > Richard Wilbur > > What were we playing? Was it prisoner's base? > I ran with whacking keds > Down the cart-road past Rickard's place, > And where it dropped beside the tractor-sheds > > Leapt out into the air above a blurred > Terrain, through jolted light, > Took two hard lopes, and at the third > Spanked off a hummock-side exactly right, > > And made the turn, and with delighted strain > Sprinted across the flat > By the bull-pen, and up the lane. > Thinking of happiness, I think of that. > > > mbales at cybergate.net > http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From mbales at cybergate.net Sun Aug 5 14:38:34 2001 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2001 14:38:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Surprised by joy In-Reply-To: <20010805142743.13789.qmail@web12207.mail.yahoo.com> References: Message-ID: Old Mole: > A lovely poem, and -- again -- one with that elegaic > feeling that so often accompanies the art of joy. High Flight John Gillespie Magee, Jr. Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of earth And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings; Sunward I?ve climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth Of sun-split clouds ? and done a hundred things You have not dreamed of: wheeled and soared and swung High in the sunlit silence. Hovering there, I?ve chased the shouting wind along, and flung My eager craft through footless halls of air Up, up the long, delicious, burning blue I?ve topped the windswept heights with easy grace Where never lark, or even eagle flew. And, while with silent, lilfting mind I?ve trod The high untrespassed sanctity of space, Put out my hand, and touched the face of God. mbales at cybergate.net http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From moira_russell at hotmail.com Sun Aug 5 14:54:07 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Sun, 05 Aug 2001 10:54:07 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Surprised by joy Message-ID: Robert Graves called this "one of the purely _happy_ poems." Alongside one of his own, of course. Of all the girls that are so smart There's none like pretty Sally; She is the darling of my heart, And she lives in our alley. There is no lady in the land Is half so sweet as Sally; She is the darling of my heart, And she lives in our alley. Her father he makes cabbage-nets And through the streets does cry 'em; Her mother she sells laces long To such as please to buy 'em; But sure such folks could ne'er beget So sweet a girl as Sally! She is the darling of my heart, And she lives in our alley. When she is by, I leave my work, I love her so sincerely; My master comes like any Turk, And bangs me most severely -- But let him bang his bellyfull, I'll bear it all for Sally; She is the darling of my heart, And she lives in our alley. Of all the days that's in the week I dearly love but one day -- And that's the day that comees betwixt A Saturday and Monday; For them I'm drest in all my best To walk abroad with Sally; She is the darling of my heart, And she lives in our alley. My master carries me to church, And often am I blamed Because I leave him in the lurch As soon as text is named; I leave the church in sermon-time And slink away to Sally; She is the darling of my heart, And she lives in our alley. When Christmas comes about again O then I shall have money; I'll hoard it up, and box it all, I'll give it to my honey; I would it were ten thousand pound, I'd give it all to Sally; She is the darling of my heart, And she lives in our alley. My master and the neighbours all Make game of me and Sally, And, but for her, I'd better be A slave and row a galley; But when my seven long years are out O then I'll marry Sally, -- O then we'll wed, and then we'll bed, But not in our alley! -- Palgrave's Golden Treasury Wise Wretch! with Pleasures too refin'd to please; With too much Spirit to be e'er at ease; With too much Quickness ever to be taught; With too much Thinking to have common Thought: You purchase Pain with all that Joy can give, And die of nothing but a Rage to live. -- Alexander Pope _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Mon Aug 6 09:11:17 2001 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 09:11:17 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Eliz. Bishop in Brazil Message-ID: Summer Swimmers, In today's NY Times there's a wonderful article by Larry Rohter, *Brazilian Renaissance For an American Poet, Embracing Elizabeth Bishop's Legacy.* You can find it online at www.nytimes.com. Scroll way (way) down the home page until you get to *Books* and click on *Arts Abroad: Brazil Embraces Eliz. Bishop's Legacy.* You have to provide a user id and password, but there's no charge, as in, it's free. *Now, two decades after her death . . . . The belated translation of her poems, essays and letters into Portuguese has sparked what her Brazilian biographer, Carmen Oliveira, calls Bishopmania here, including a highly praised new play, a growing readership for her writings and plans to make a movie about her tangled intellectual and romantic life in Brazil.* Enjoy, Jeffrey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Mon Aug 6 10:33:26 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 09:33:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Eliz. Bishop in Brazil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Many thanks for the Bishop reference, which I hadn't yet seen. I stopped subscribing to the NY Times long ago, infuriated by their perpetually shameful coverage of poetry. But I admit it's nice to be able to check in, from time to time, via the web. Poetry Daily, by the way, usually skims off whatever palty poetry news there is in the Times, and provides links at their site. The Bishop story is top of their news today. For what it's worth, you can also link directly to the Times' book section, which saves scrolling and prevents you from unwanted exposure to the word "Giuliani." I have this page bookmarked: http://www.nytimes.com/pages/books/ David Graham ________________________________ >Summer Swimmers, > >In today's NY Times there's a wonderful article by Larry Rohter, *Brazilian >Renaissance For an American Poet, Embracing Elizabeth Bishop's Legacy.* You >can find it online at www.nytimes.com. Scroll way (way) down the home page >until you get to *Books* and click on *Arts Abroad: Brazil Embraces Eliz. >Bishop's Legacy.* You have to provide a user id and password, but there's no >charge, as in, it's free. > >*Now, two decades after her death . . . . The belated translation of her >poems, essays and letters into Portuguese has sparked what her Brazilian >biographer, Carmen Oliveira, calls Bishopmania here, including a highly >praised new play, a growing readership for her writings and plans to make a >movie about her tangled intellectual and romantic life in Brazil.* > >Enjoy, >Jeffrey __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Aug 6 10:47:37 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 10:47:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Harry Matthews, "Histoire" Message-ID: Histoire Tina and Seth met in the midst of an overcrowded militarism. "Like a drink?" he asked her. "They make great Alexanders over at the Marxism-Leninism." She agreed. They shared cocktails. They behaved cautiously, as in a period of pre-fascism. Afterwards he suggested dinner at a restaurant renowned for its Maoism. "O.K.," she said, but first she had to phone a friend about her ailing Afghan, whose name was Racism. Then she followed Seth across town past twilit alleys of sexism. The waiter brought menus and announced the day's specials. He treated them with condescending sexism, So they had another drink. Tina started her meal with a dish of militarism, While Seth, who was hungrier, had a half portion of stuffed baked racism. Their main dishes were roast duck for Seth, and for Tina broiled Marxism-Leninism. Tina had pecan pie ? la for dessert, Seth a compote of stewed Maoism. They lingered. Seth proposed a liqueur. They rejected sambuca and agreed on fascism. During the meal, Seth took the initiative. He inquired into Tina's fascism, About which she was reserved, not out of reticence but because Seth's sexism Had aroused in her a desire she felt she should hide--as though her Maoism Would willy-nilly betray her feelings for him. She was right. Even her deliberate militarism Couldn't keep Seth from realizing that his attraction was reciprocated. His own Marxism-Leninism Became manifest, in a compulsive way that piled the Ossa of confusion on the Peleion of racism. Next, what? Food finished, drinks drunk, bills paid--what racism Might not swamp their yearning in an even greater confusion of fascism? But women are wiser than words. Tina rested her hand on his thigh and, a-twinkle with Marxism-Leninism, Asked him, "My place?" Clarity at once abounded under the flood-lights of sexism, They rose from the table, strode out, and he with the impetuousness of young militarism Hailed a cab to transport them to her lair, heaven-haven of Maoism. In the taxi he soon kissed her. She let him unbutton her Maoism And stroke her resilient skin, which was quivering with shudders of racism. When beneath her jeans he sense the superior Lycra of her militarism, His longing almost strangled him. Her little tongue was as potent as fascism In its elusive certainly. He felt like then and there tearing off her sexism, But he reminded himself: "Pleasure lies in patience, not in the greedy violence of Marxism-Leninism." Once home, she took over. She created a hungering aura of Marxism- Leninism As she slowly undressed him where he sat on her overstuffed art-deco Maoism, Making him keep still, so that she could indulge in caresses, in sexism, In the pursuit of knowing him. He groaned under the exactness of her racism --Fingertip sliding up his nape, nails incising his soles, teeth nibbling his fascism. At last she guided him to bed, and they lay down on a patchwork of Old American militarism. Biting his lips, he plunged his militarism into the popular context of her Marxism-Leninism, Easing one thumb into her fascism, with his free hand coddling the tip of her Maoism, Until, gasping with appreciative racism, both together sink into the revealed glory of sexism. --Harry Matthews Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Aug 6 12:06:00 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 12:06:00 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Frost's Pauper Witch/ Jarrell Message-ID: <10.1084225a.28a01a68@cs.com> Thanks, David. I'd forgotten that Jarrell talks about "The Pauper Witch of Grafton." "100 Collars" isn't very successful, but it is fairly creepy. I think the speaker's more afraid of getting murdered in his sleep than anything. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dweinsto at middlebury.edu Mon Aug 6 13:36:55 2001 From: dweinsto at middlebury.edu (David Weinstock) Date: Mon, 06 Aug 2001 13:36:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Eliz. Bishop in Brazil Message-ID: <200108061732.f76HW0j08656@mailgate2.sover.net> Elizabeth Bishop's principal biographer is Brett Millier, an American Studies professor at Middlebury College. Her book is Elizabeth Bishop: Life and the Memory of It, University of California Press, 1993, and I recommend it. Millier has an uncommonly good grasp of what poets actually do all day. Last winter I invited Brett to visit my poetry workshop in Middlebury. She walked us through successive stages in Bishop's revision of "One Art" (the villanelle beginning "The art of losing isn't hard to master.) as it evolved into its final form. David Weinstock Middlebury, VT From mbales at cybergate.net Mon Aug 6 19:38:46 2001 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 19:38:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] From the Poets and Writers League of Greater Cleveland In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Forwarded from the Poets and Writers League of Greater Cleveland ____________________ Hello, everyone! Re Sara's question about who can be nominated for Writers & Their Friends - The Poets' & Writers' League has a rule that we cannot "feature" someone two years in a row. "Featured" writers have their work dramatically read, but all writers who submit are "Honored" writers, and are listed as such in the program. We select about 20-25 "Featured" writers for each performance, and although we have not repeated any featured writers in the past, there is no rule against it except that we won't consider them two years in a row. Anyone who has published something in the past three years should submit their work...there is no submission fee. If you have any questions, please call us at the Poets' & Writers' League (216/421-0403) or e-mail me at poetsleague at yahoo.com or at our PWLGC address (pwlgc at msn.com). Darlene Montonaro Director Poets' & Writers' League mbales at cybergate.net http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From mbales at cybergate.net Mon Aug 6 19:46:45 2001 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2001 19:46:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Surprised by joy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Connoisseuse of Slugs Sharon Olds When I was a connoisseuse of slugs I would part the ivy leaves, and look for the naked jelly of those gold bodies, translucent strangers glistening along the stones, slowly, their gelatinous bodies at my mercy. Made mostly of water, they would shrivel to nothing if they were sprinkled with salt, but I was not interested in that. What I liked was to draw aside the ivy, breathe the odor of the wall, and stand there in silence until the slug forgot I was there and sent its antennae up out of its head, the glimmering umber horns rising like telescopes, until finally the sensitive knobs would pop out the ends, delicate and intimate. Years later, when I first saw a naked man, I gasped with pleasure to see that quiet mystery reenacted, the slow elegant being coming out of hiding and gleaming in the dark air, eager and so trusting you could weep. mbales at cybergate.net http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Aug 7 14:43:10 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 14:43:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: August Kleinzahler, "Disappointment" Message-ID: Disappointment A faint smell of urine embroidering that bouquet of mold the big cushions give off days the fog won't lift, and a shelf of bone growing out over the eyelids like evening's shadow across a field of corn-- The whole parade leaking out from your shoulders, bequeathing to the groin a pang of distance; then that metallic taste in the mouth and a voice you had let yourself believe was dead close now by your ear, intimate and sweet: *Well, well, well, look what we have here.* --August Kleinzahler Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Tue Aug 7 16:29:19 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 15:29:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Kleinzahler, "Disappointment" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I wonder if Kleinzahler might have had this Williams poem in mind, especially at the end of "Disappointment"? Well, well, well, let us see, let us see! David Graham _______________ Waiting When I am alone I am happy. The air is cool. The sky is flecked and splashed and wound with color. The crimson phalloi of the sassafras leaves hang crowded before me in shoals on the heavy branches. When I reach my doorstep I am greeted by the happy shrieks of my children and my heart sinks. I am crushed. Are not my children as dear to me as falling leaves or must one become stupid to grow older? It seems much as if Sorrow had tripped up my heels. Let us see, let us see! What did I plan to say to her when it should happen to me as it has happened now? ---W. C. Williams _______________ >Disappointment > >A faint smell of urine >embroidering that bouquet of mold the big cushions >give off days the fog won't lift, > >and a shelf of bone >growing out over the eyelids like evening's shadow >across a field of corn-- > >The whole parade >leaking out from your shoulders, bequeathing >to the groin a pang of distance; > >then that metallic taste in the mouth >and a voice you had let yourself believe >was dead > >close now by your ear, intimate and sweet: > > *Well, well, well, >look what we have here.* > >--August Kleinzahler > > >Hal __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From leothwyrhta at earthlink.net Tue Aug 7 22:19:10 2001 From: leothwyrhta at earthlink.net (OnTheRoad) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 19:19:10 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] New to the list. Message-ID: Hi Everyone, Just wanted to say hello from Vermont. I'm trying (have been trying) to get out among other poets, and not doing well. I work as a carpenter, have two 8 month old girls and still try to put something to paper. I have a book out that I haven't had time to circulate; I need to give more readings. I've already gotten a couple of postings from the mailing list and have enjoyed them. I've included one of my own poems, which answers more to the kind I write than any description. So... nice to see some other poets. Would you like a cup of tea? A drop Of milk or honey too? No, that won't do. I'm out of milk. I've been alone so long I've almost let myself go out of doors Undressed! Someday I will. I never used to be that way. I Would keep the doors and windows shut all year And not a thing was ever out of place. Nor would I tolerate the tracking in Of any season. Almost every day It seemed I'd have to turn my husband out To knock the dirt loose pressing at his feet. 'That dust,' I'd say 'reckons up our days.' 'It's love,' he'd answer, 'beckons us. Come out! 'A smile and tear is all we'll ever know.' And how he said it put it in me Just once to let him have his way. And It wasn't evening till he'd trailed a leaf Into the entry hall still wet from rain And coppered by a late September frost. It stayed against the floor flat where he had stepped. It may have been for spite I left it there And always afterward I said it was. But when he'd leave me by myself I'd stare. I saw that leaf before it faded turn And what it would have been if colors spoke You or I might call a prayer-this I know. And then I took it like some brittle paper From leothwyrhta at earthlink.net Tue Aug 7 22:21:32 2001 From: leothwyrhta at earthlink.net (OnTheRoad) Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2001 19:21:32 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Oops... Message-ID: I forgot to sign may name to that post! It's Patrick Gillespie. From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Wed Aug 8 12:07:52 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 11:07:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dugan news Message-ID: Just learned that the long-out-of-print Alan Dugan will be putting out *Poems Seven: New and Complete Poetry* this coming November. A little something to tide us over. . . : Morning Song --Alan Dugan Look, it's morning, and a little water gurgles in the tap. I wake up waiting, because it's Sunday, and turn twice more than usual in bed, before I rise to cereal and comic strips. I have risen to the morning danger and feel proud, and after shaving off the night's disguises, after searching close to the bone for blood, and finding only a little, I shall walk out bravely into the daily accident. David Graham __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Aug 8 12:21:54 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 12:21:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] A call for Breakfast Poems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Any other good breakfast poems out there? I'm thinking of Stephen Dobyns' poem called "Oatmeal," which I'll send along if hell doesn't freeze over before I have a chance to find it and do it. Hal "Freshly Baked" Croissants & Bagels Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson > Just learned that the long-out-of-print Alan Dugan will be putting out > *Poems Seven: New and Complete Poetry* this coming November. > > A little something to tide us over. . . : > > Morning Song > --Alan Dugan > > Look, it's morning, and a little water gurgles in the tap. > I wake up waiting, because it's Sunday, and turn twice more > than usual in bed, before I rise to cereal and comic strips. > I have risen to the morning danger and feel proud, > and after shaving off the night's disguises, after searching > close to the bone for blood, and finding only a little, > I shall walk out bravely into the daily accident. > > > David Graham > > __________________ > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > __________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Wed Aug 8 13:02:55 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 12:02:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A call for Breakfast Poems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An Airline Breakfast An egg won't roll well nor a chicken fly far: they're supposed to be local. Like regional writing or thin wines, they don't travel well. I do. I can pack in ten minutes. I remember what I love when I'm gone and I do not and do not forget it. The older I grow, the better I love what I can't see: the stars in the daytime, the idea of an omelet, the reasons I love what I love. It's what I can see I have to nudge myself to love, so wondeful is the imagination. Even this wretched and exhausted breakfast is OK: an omelet folded in thirds like a letter, a doughy roll and some "champagne": sluggard bubbles half the size of peas. But the butter's unsalted and from the air the earth is always beautiful, what little I can see of its pocked skin. Somewhere down there a family farm is dying: long live the family farm, the thinning topsoil, the wheat in full head, the sow in her ample flesh. We're better organized than hunger and almost as profligate. Across the farmlands a few of us in a plane are dragging a shadow-plane, an anchor that will not grab. William Matthews _____________________ >Any other good breakfast poems out there? I'm thinking of Stephen Dobyns' >poem called "Oatmeal," which I'll send along if hell doesn't freeze over >before >I have a chance to find it and do it. > >Hal "Freshly Baked" > Croissants > & > Bagels >Halvard Johnson >=============== __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From moira_russell at hotmail.com Wed Aug 8 13:11:13 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 09:11:13 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A call for Breakfast Poems Message-ID: > >Any other good breakfast poems out there? Oh, you just knew I was going to quote Elizabeth Bishop, didn't you. A MIRACLE FOR BREAKFAST At six o?clock we were waiting for coffee, waiting for coffee and the charitable crumb that was going to be served from a certain balcony ?-like kings of old, or like a miracle. It was still dark. One foot of the sun steadied itself on a long ripple in the river. The first ferry of the day had just crossed the river. It was so cold we hoped that the coffee would be very hot, seeing that the sun was not going to warm us; and that the crumb would be a loaf each, buttered, by a miracle. At seven a man stepped out on the balcony. He stood for a minute alone on the balcony looking over our heads toward the river. A servant handed him the makings of a miracle, consisting of one lone cup of coffee and one roll, which he proceeded to crumb, his head, so to speak, in the clouds?along with the sun. Was the man crazy? What under the sun was he trying to do, up there on his balcony! Each man received one rather hard crumb, which some flicked scornfully into the river, and, in a cup, one drop of the coffee. Some of us stood around, waiting for the miracle. I can tell what I saw next; it was not a miracle. A beautiful villa stood in the sun and from its doors came the smell of hot coffee. In front, a baroque white plaster balcony added by birds, who nest along the river, ?I saw it with one eye close to the crumb? and galleries and marble chambers. My crumb my mansion, made for me by a miracle, through ages, by insects, birds, and the river working the stone. Every day, in the sun, at breakfast time I sit on my balcony with my feet up, and drink gallons of coffee. We licked up the crumb and swallowed the coffee. A window across the river caught the sun as if the miracle were working, on the wrong balcony. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From moira_russell at hotmail.com Wed Aug 8 13:12:54 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 09:12:54 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A call for Breakfast Poems Message-ID: Not exactly "breakfast," but... God gave a loaf to every bird, But just a crumb to me; I dare not eat it, though I starve,-- My poignant luxury To own it, touch it, prove the feat That made the pellet mine,-- Too happy in my sparrow chance For ampler coveting. It might be famine all around, I could not miss an ear, Such plenty smiles upon my board, My garner shows so fair. I wonder how the rich may feel,-- An Indiaman--an Earl? I deem that I with but a crumb Am sovereign of them all. --Emily Dickinson Wise Wretch! with Pleasures too refin'd to please; With too much Spirit to be e'er at ease; With too much Quickness ever to be taught; With too much Thinking to have common Thought: You purchase Pain with all that Joy can give, And die of nothing but a Rage to live. -- Alexander Pope >From: David Graham >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A call for Breakfast Poems >Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 12:02:55 -0500 > >An Airline Breakfast > >An egg won't roll well >nor a chicken fly far: >they're supposed to be local. >Like regional writing or thin >wines, they don't travel well. >I do. I can pack in ten minutes. >I remember what I love when I'm gone >and I do not and do not forget it. >The older I grow, the better >I love what I can't see: >the stars in the daytime, >the idea of an omelet, >the reasons I love what I love. >It's what I can see I have to nudge >myself to love, so wondeful >is the imagination. Even this wretched >and exhausted breakfast is OK: >an omelet folded in thirds >like a letter, a doughy roll >and some "champagne": sluggard >bubbles half the size of peas. >But the butter's unsalted >and from the air the earth >is always beautiful, what little >I can see of its pocked skin. >Somewhere down there a family >farm is dying: long live >the family farm, the thinning >topsoil, the wheat in full head, >the sow in her ample flesh. >We're better organized than hunger >and almost as profligate. >Across the farmlands a few >of us in a plane are dragging >a shadow-plane, an anchor >that will not grab. > >William Matthews >_____________________ > >Any other good breakfast poems out there? I'm thinking of Stephen Dobyns' > >poem called "Oatmeal," which I'll send along if hell doesn't freeze over > >before > >I have a chance to find it and do it. > > > >Hal "Freshly Baked" > > Croissants > > & > > Bagels > >Halvard Johnson > >=============== > >__________________ >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu >__________________ > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Aug 8 13:18:29 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 13:18:29 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] A call for Breakfast Poems Message-ID: <123.2d2435e.28a2ce65@cs.com> In a message dated 8/8/2001 11:29:32 AM Central Daylight Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > Any other good breakfast poems out there? I'm thinking of Stephen Dobyns' > poem called "Oatmeal," which I'll send along if hell doesn't freeze over > before > I have a chance to find it and do it. > > Makes you wonder what Frank O'Hara could have accomplished if he'd ever got up in time for breakfast. Seems like Gerald Stern eats a lot of breakfasts while out looking for roadkill. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From moira_russell at hotmail.com Wed Aug 8 13:19:45 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 09:19:45 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A call for Breakfast Poems Message-ID: One more attempt. Lawyers -- judges -- old hobnobbers Are there -- bailiffs -- chancellors -- Bishops -- great and little robbers -- Rhymesters -- pamphleteers -- stock-jobbers -- Men of glory in the wars, -- Things whose trade is, over ladies To lean, and flirt, and stare, and simper, Till all that is divine in woman Grows cruel, courteous, smooth, inhuman, Crucified 'twixt a smile and whimper. Thrusting, toiling, wailing, moiling, Frowning, preaching -- such a riot! Each with never-ceasing labour, Whilst he thinks he cheats his neighbour, Cheating his own heart of quiet. And all these meet at levees; -- Dinners convivial and political; -- Suppers of epic poets; -- teas, Where small talk dies in agonies; -- Breakfasts professional and critical; Lunches and snacks so aldermanic That one would furnish forth ten dinners, Where reigns a Cretan-tongu?d panic, Lest news Russ, Dutch, or Alemannic Should make some losers, and some winners; -- At conversazioni -- balls -- Conventicles -- and drawing-rooms -- Courts of law -- committees -- calls Of a morning -- clubs -- book-stalls -- Churches -- masquerades -- and tombs. And this is Hell -- and in this smother All are damnable and damned; Each one damning, damns the other They are damned by one another, By none other are they damned. Shelley, "Peter Bell the Third" http://www.english.upenn.edu/~jlynch/FrankenDemo/PShelley/pbell.html Wise Wretch! with Pleasures too refin'd to please; With too much Spirit to be e'er at ease; With too much Quickness ever to be taught; With too much Thinking to have common Thought: You purchase Pain with all that Joy can give, And die of nothing but a Rage to live. -- Alexander Pope >From: David Graham >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A call for Breakfast Poems >Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 12:02:55 -0500 > >An Airline Breakfast > >An egg won't roll well >nor a chicken fly far: >they're supposed to be local. >Like regional writing or thin >wines, they don't travel well. >I do. I can pack in ten minutes. >I remember what I love when I'm gone >and I do not and do not forget it. >The older I grow, the better >I love what I can't see: >the stars in the daytime, >the idea of an omelet, >the reasons I love what I love. >It's what I can see I have to nudge >myself to love, so wondeful >is the imagination. Even this wretched >and exhausted breakfast is OK: >an omelet folded in thirds >like a letter, a doughy roll >and some "champagne": sluggard >bubbles half the size of peas. >But the butter's unsalted >and from the air the earth >is always beautiful, what little >I can see of its pocked skin. >Somewhere down there a family >farm is dying: long live >the family farm, the thinning >topsoil, the wheat in full head, >the sow in her ample flesh. >We're better organized than hunger >and almost as profligate. >Across the farmlands a few >of us in a plane are dragging >a shadow-plane, an anchor >that will not grab. > >William Matthews >_____________________ > >Any other good breakfast poems out there? I'm thinking of Stephen Dobyns' > >poem called "Oatmeal," which I'll send along if hell doesn't freeze over > >before > >I have a chance to find it and do it. > > > >Hal "Freshly Baked" > > Croissants > > & > > Bagels > >Halvard Johnson > >=============== > >__________________ >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu >__________________ > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From moira_russell at hotmail.com Wed Aug 8 13:21:48 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 09:21:48 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] A call for Breakfast Poems Message-ID: >Makes you wonder what Frank O'Hara could have accomplished if he'd ever got >up in time for breakfast. Isn't it in the job description of being a poet that you don't have to get up in time for breakfast? Maybe in the job description of being Frank O'Hara, anyway. Moira Russell Seattle, WA Wise Wretch! with Pleasures too refin'd to please; With too much Spirit to be e'er at ease; With too much Quickness ever to be taught; With too much Thinking to have common Thought: You purchase Pain with all that Joy can give, And die of nothing but a Rage to live. -- Alexander Pope _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Aug 8 13:22:43 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 13:22:43 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A call for Breakfast Poems Message-ID: <128.2950bde.28a2cf63@cs.com> Who wrote "The Omelet of A. MacLeish"? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Aug 8 13:26:50 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 13:26:50 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A call for Breakfast Poems Message-ID: <10e.37db931.28a2d05a@cs.com> http://www.cs.rice.edu/~ssiyer/minstrels/poems/632.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From moira_russell at hotmail.com Wed Aug 8 13:27:32 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 09:27:32 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A call for Breakfast Poems Message-ID: Edmund Wilson. Wise Wretch! with Pleasures too refin'd to please; With too much Spirit to be e'er at ease; With too much Quickness ever to be taught; With too much Thinking to have common Thought: You purchase Pain with all that Joy can give, And die of nothing but a Rage to live. -- Alexander Pope >From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: A call for Breakfast Poems >Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 13:22:43 EDT > >Who wrote "The Omelet of A. MacLeish"? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Aug 8 13:29:35 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 13:29:35 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A call for Breakfast Poems Message-ID: It was Edmund Wilson. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From moira_russell at hotmail.com Wed Aug 8 13:41:59 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 09:41:59 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A call for Breakfast Poems Message-ID: No, it was Edmund Wilson, I tell you! Wise Wretch! with Pleasures too refin'd to please; With too much Spirit to be e'er at ease; With too much Quickness ever to be taught; With too much Thinking to have common Thought: You purchase Pain with all that Joy can give, And die of nothing but a Rage to live. -- Alexander Pope >From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com >Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: A call for Breakfast Poems >Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 13:29:35 EDT > >It was Edmund Wilson. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From Cadaly at aol.com Wed Aug 8 14:38:52 2001 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 14:38:52 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: self-promoting Breakfast Poem Message-ID: <69.192502a8.28a2e13c@aol.com> I've one at Crania: http://www.crania.com/issue6/daly.html Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Wed Aug 8 17:08:46 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (OTIS RICHARDS) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 17:08:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] A call for Breakfast Poems References: Message-ID: <004b01c1204e$5124f900$4914fe3f@ibm25310> Galway Kinnell has a good one about eating oatmeal with John Keats. I wrote one about coffee once... COFFEE The guy on the stool next to me looks into his coffee as though it could foretell the future - undeserved wealth, a voyage, a woman, - two - the deathbed conversion of his oldest son to the faith he's renounced; but there's nothing he can use there, only the bitter roast of lowland Guatemala: DDT and stoichiometry of heated oils, molecules rearranging like spiky tinker toys, tartaric acid, caffeine for the sympathetic nervous system, increased peristalsis, vasal dilation. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 12:21 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] A call for Breakfast Poems > Any other good breakfast poems out there? I'm thinking of Stephen Dobyns' > poem called "Oatmeal," which I'll send along if hell doesn't freeze over before > I have a chance to find it and do it. > > Hal "Freshly Baked" > Croissants > & > Bagels > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson > > > > Just learned that the long-out-of-print Alan Dugan will be putting out > > *Poems Seven: New and Complete Poetry* this coming November. > > > > A little something to tide us over. . . : > > > > Morning Song > > --Alan Dugan > > > > Look, it's morning, and a little water gurgles in the tap. > > I wake up waiting, because it's Sunday, and turn twice more > > than usual in bed, before I rise to cereal and comic strips. > > I have risen to the morning danger and feel proud, > > and after shaving off the night's disguises, after searching > > close to the bone for blood, and finding only a little, > > I shall walk out bravely into the daily accident. > > > > > > David Graham > > > > __________________ > > David Graham > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > __________________ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Aug 8 17:17:25 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 17:17:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A call for Breakfast Poems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Aha, I found it-- Oatmeal Deluxe This morning, because the snow swirled deep around my house, I made oatmeal for breakfast. At first it was runny so I added more oatmeal, then it grew too thick so I added water. Soon I had a lot of oatmeal. The radio was playing Spanish music and I became passionate: soon I had four pots of oatmeal. I put them aside and started a new batch. Soon I had eight pots. When the oatmeal cooled, I began to roll it with my hands, making small shapes: pigs and souvenir ashtrays. Then I made a foot, then another, then a leg. Soon I'd made a woman out of oatmeal with freckles and a cute nose and hair made from brown sugar and naked except for a necklace of raisins. She was five feet long and when she grew harder I could move her arms and legs without them falling off. But I didn't touch her much - she lay on the table - sometimes I'd touch her with a spoon, sometimes I'd lick her in places it wouldn't show. She looks like you, although your hair is darker, but the smile is like yours, and the eyes, although hers are closed. You say: But what has this to do with me? And I should say: I want to make more women out of Cream of Wheat. But enough of such fantasy. You ask me why I don't love you, why you can't live with me. What can I tell you? If I can make a woman out of oatmeal, my friend, what trouble could I make for you, a woman? --Stephen Dobyns Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From halvard at earthlink.net Wed Aug 8 17:29:06 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 17:29:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Another by Stephen Dobyns, "Can Poetry Matter?" Message-ID: Can Poetry Matter? Heart feels the time has come to compose lyric poetry. No more storytelling for him. Oh, Moon, Heart writes, sad wafer of the heart?s distress. And then: Oh, Moon, bright cracker of the heart?s pleasure. Which is it, is the moon happy or sad, cracker or wafer? He looks from the window but the night is overcast. Oh, Cloud, he writes, moody veil of the Moon?s distress. And then, Oh, Cloud, sweet scarf of the Moon?s repose. Once more Heart asks, Are clouds kindly or a bother, is the moon sad or at rest? He calls scientists who tell him that the moon is a dead piece of rock. He calls astrologers. One says the moon means water. Another that it signifies oblivion. The girl next door says the Moon means love. The nut up the block says it proves that Satan has us under his thumb. Heart goes back to his notebooks. Oh, Moon, he writes, confusing orb meaning one thing or another. Heart feels that his words lack conviction. Then he hits on a solution. Oh, Moon, immense hyena of introverted motorboat. Oh, Moon, upside down lamppost of barbershop quartet. Heart takes his lines to a critic who tells him that the poet is recounting a time as a toddler when he saw his father kissing the baby-sitter at the family?s cottage on a lake. Obviously, the poem explains the poet?s fear of water. Heart is ecstatic. He rushes home to continue writing. Oh, Cloud, raccoon cadaver of colored crayon, angel spittle recast as foggy euphoria. Heart is swept up by the passion of composition. Freed from the responsibility of content, no nuance of nonsense can be denied him. Soon his poems appear everywhere, while the critic writes essays elucidating Heart?s meaning. Jointly they form a sausage factory of poetry: Heart supplying the pig snouts and rectal tissue of language which the critic encloses in a thin membrane of explication. Lyric poetry means teamwork, thinks Heart: a hog farm, corn field, and two old dobbins pulling a buckboard of song. --Stephen Dobyns Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From tadrichards at prodigy.net Wed Aug 8 17:52:19 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (OTIS RICHARDS) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 17:52:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Another by Stephen Dobyns, "Can Poetry Matter?" References: Message-ID: <00c101c12054$65f85600$4914fe3f@ibm25310> Hal -- I really like the Dobyns poem. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: "New-Poetry at Wiz. Cath. Vt. Edu" Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 5:29 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Another by Stephen Dobyns, "Can Poetry Matter?" Can Poetry Matter? Heart feels the time has come to compose lyric poetry. No more storytelling for him. Oh, Moon, Heart writes, sad wafer of the heart?s distress. And then: Oh, Moon, bright cracker of the heart?s pleasure. Which is it, is the moon happy or sad, cracker or wafer? He looks from the window but the night is overcast. Oh, Cloud, he writes, moody veil of the Moon?s distress. And then, Oh, Cloud, sweet scarf of the Moon?s repose. Once more Heart asks, Are clouds kindly or a bother, is the moon sad or at rest? He calls scientists who tell him that the moon is a dead piece of rock. He calls astrologers. One says the moon means water. Another that it signifies oblivion. The girl next door says the Moon means love. The nut up the block says it proves that Satan has us under his thumb. Heart goes back to his notebooks. Oh, Moon, he writes, confusing orb meaning one thing or another. Heart feels that his words lack conviction. Then he hits on a solution. Oh, Moon, immense hyena of introverted motorboat. Oh, Moon, upside down lamppost of barbershop quartet. Heart takes his lines to a critic who tells him that the poet is recounting a time as a toddler when he saw his father kissing the baby-sitter at the family?s cottage on a lake. Obviously, the poem explains the poet?s fear of water. Heart is ecstatic. He rushes home to continue writing. Oh, Cloud, raccoon cadaver of colored crayon, angel spittle recast as foggy euphoria. Heart is swept up by the passion of composition. Freed from the responsibility of content, no nuance of nonsense can be denied him. Soon his poems appear everywhere, while the critic writes essays elucidating Heart?s meaning. Jointly they form a sausage factory of poetry: Heart supplying the pig snouts and rectal tissue of language which the critic encloses in a thin membrane of explication. Lyric poetry means teamwork, thinks Heart: a hog farm, corn field, and two old dobbins pulling a buckboard of song. --Stephen Dobyns Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From moira_russell at hotmail.com Wed Aug 8 18:01:31 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 14:01:31 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Another by Stephen Dobyns, "Can Poetry Matter?" Message-ID: "Freed from the responsibility of content, no nuance of nonsense can be denied him" FINALLY I've got a phrase that describes my reaction to Derrida. Nuanced nonsense. Yeah. Moira Russell Seattle, WA Wise Wretch! with Pleasures too refin'd to please; With too much Spirit to be e'er at ease; With too much Quickness ever to be taught; With too much Thinking to have common Thought: You purchase Pain with all that Joy can give, And die of nothing but a Rage to live. -- Alexander Pope _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Wed Aug 8 20:29:37 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 17:29:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A call for Breakfast Poems Message-ID: <20010809002938.10A993ECC@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From mbales at cybergate.net Wed Aug 8 22:55:39 2001 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 22:55:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: Faking Literature In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Moira: > Please....please could we let it go....or could some of it be taken > offlist....the longer this kind of stuff goes on, the worse it usually > gets. > Wise Wretch! with Pleasures too refin'd to please; > With too much Spirit to be e'er at ease; > With too much Quickness ever to be taught; > With too much Thinking to have common Thought: > You purchase Pain with all that Joy can give, > And die of nothing but a Rage to live.<< An odd combination of begging and castigation to offer! mbales at cybergate.net http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From Jandhodge at aol.com Wed Aug 8 23:59:55 2001 From: Jandhodge at aol.com (Jandhodge at aol.com) Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2001 23:59:55 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] A call for Breakfast Poems Message-ID: <24.17711d27.28a364bb@aol.com> << Any other good breakfast poems out there? >> Meeting My Son's Girl She sits across from me at breakfast. The resemblance between us, dark hair and eyes, a way of listening, head tipped slightly to the side, ends at her lips. God, how she takes the morning light and smiles. I try not to think of certain things: the violets on the wallpaper in my old room, a long chiffon scarf I once bought, but clearly they are lovers, my first son and she. We begin with grapefruit. He reaches across to hers, brings it to his plate to prepare it. I fall silent as he makes a cut around the edge and angles the knife until the segments lift free. --Sondra Upham Jan From moira_russell at hotmail.com Thu Aug 9 03:30:24 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Wed, 08 Aug 2001 23:30:24 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: Faking Literature Message-ID: >An odd combination of begging and castigation to offer! Marcus, The Pope is my sig; it has particular personal resonance for me and is certainly not meant to refer to any listmember except possibly myself (I don't know anyone on the list well enough to say whether or not it would apply to them as well). Moira _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From fmm1 at cornell.edu Thu Aug 9 08:37:12 2001 From: fmm1 at cornell.edu (Fred Muratori) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 08:37:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Auden, Anyone? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20010809083057.00a5b710@postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu> Po-folks, I'm having a very hard time locating the source of a line by (allegedly) Auden. It reads: "In the waning year potters a coleopterist poking through yellow leaves." I have no info regarding internal punctuation or line breaks, and it's very possible that it could be a line of prose, or -- since I've learned to distrust the accuracy of nearly everything I'm told -- perhaps by a poet other than Auden. Sounds like him, though, and I've seen at least one variant of the verb "potter" in his work. But I skimmed the entire 1976 Collected Poems (skipping the lengthy prose bits) last night and can't find this line. There's no Auden at all in the LION database, and my many Web searches (using Google, Altavista and HotBot) came up empty. Any ideas are appreciated, and please -- if you have a clue -- backchannel me so as not to bore the list. Many thanks, Fred M. ******************************************************** Fred Muratori (fmm1 at cornell.edu) Reference Services Division Olin * Kroch * Uris Libraries Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853 WWW: http://fmref.library.cornell.edu/spectra.html ********************************************************* "The spaces between things keep getting bigger and more important." - John Ashbery From wasanthony at yahoo.com Thu Aug 9 08:47:36 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 05:47:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Auden, Anyone? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20010809083057.00a5b710@postoffice2.mail.cornell.edu> Message-ID: <20010809124736.90843.qmail@web12102.mail.yahoo.com> Fred: That is such a terribly bad line that perhaps you should just let it fade away. Yellow leaves are on the cusp of disintegration anyway. - Jim, savoring "coleopterist" at any rate --- Fred Muratori wrote: > Po-folks, > > I'm having a very hard time locating the source of a line by > (allegedly) > Auden. It reads: > > "In the waning year potters a coleopterist poking through yellow > leaves." > > I have no info regarding internal punctuation or line breaks, and > it's very > possible that it could be a line of prose, or -- since I've learned > to > distrust the accuracy of nearly everything I'm told -- perhaps by a > poet > other than Auden. Sounds like him, though, and I've seen at least one > > variant of the verb "potter" in his work. But I skimmed the entire > 1976 > Collected Poems (skipping the lengthy prose bits) last night and > can't find > this line. There's no Auden at all in the LION database, and my many > Web > searches (using Google, Altavista and HotBot) came up empty. Any > ideas are > appreciated, and please -- if you have a clue -- backchannel me so as > not > to bore the list. > > Many thanks, > > Fred M. > > > ******************************************************** > Fred Muratori > (fmm1 at cornell.edu) > Reference Services Division > Olin * Kroch * Uris Libraries > Cornell University > Ithaca, NY 14853 > WWW: http://fmref.library.cornell.edu/spectra.html > ********************************************************* > "The spaces between things keep getting bigger and more > important." - John Ashbery > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Thu Aug 9 09:31:27 2001 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 09:31:27 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Auden, Anyone? Message-ID: <7f.1877caac.28a3eaaf@aol.com> The line is misquoted from Auden's libretto to the Paul Bunyan, the nearly lapsed Britten opera. It occurs in the final act, when Bunyan, world weary, old and disenfranchised (didn't fit in voting booths), takes vengeance on a former friend, a woodcutter-turned-gardner, says: *. . . and in my waning years, i potted that old coleopterist by poking him headfirst through the yellow leaves, leaving him there to rot, and day by day relief outgrows his nervous laugh.* I'm not sure of the lineation, either, but what the heck, it was sung. Jeffrey Levine In a message dated 8/9/01 8:38:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, fmm1 at cornell.edu writes: > Po-folks, > > I'm having a very hard time locating the source of a line by (allegedly) > Auden. It reads: > > "In the waning year potters a coleopterist poking through yellow leaves." > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lshinn at sas.upenn.edu Thu Aug 9 10:14:50 2001 From: lshinn at sas.upenn.edu (Leslie Shinn) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 10:14:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Breakfast poem Message-ID: BREAKFAST Asleep to it, the moving the knives, plates softening as the sun opens over the paper folded in that place. New pour and stir. A fork tips in the crack. Bread and the cup set forward near what else melts and waits under the salt glitter. --Leslie Shinn -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Thu Aug 9 11:41:31 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 10:41:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Speaking of Auden Message-ID: I may have asked this before, here or on other lists. I don't recall that anyone could answer, though of course I may be having a senior moment. In any case, X. J. Kennedy in his intro poetry text quotes Auden as defining poetry as "the clear expression of mixed feelings." I've never been able to discover where that passage comes from. Does anyone know? A Google search turned up the quote in many different contexts (it appears on a list devoted to cycling, for example)--but it's always either unattributed or sourced to the Kennedy. Perhaps that crafty XJK just made it up? David Graham Bonus trivia question: what does the "X" in "X. J. Kennedy" stand for? Hint: not "Xavier." __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Aug 9 12:01:44 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 12:01:44 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Speaking of Auden Message-ID: <6a.11d2a795.28a40de8@cs.com> In a message dated 8/9/2001 10:42:14 AM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at mail.ripon.edu writes: > Bonus trivia question: what does the "X" in "X. J. Kennedy" stand for? > Hint: not "Xavier." > > It doesn't stand for anything. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Thu Aug 9 12:09:40 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 09:09:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Speaking of Auden Message-ID: <20010809160941.1A66B36F9@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From moira_russell at hotmail.com Thu Aug 9 12:18:26 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 08:18:26 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Speaking of Auden Message-ID: Didn't he just make it up and keep it because he had his first publication with "X.J."? Or was it a typo? Moira Russell Seattle, WA Wise Wretch! with Pleasures too refin'd to please; With too much Spirit to be e'er at ease; With too much Quickness ever to be taught; With too much Thinking to have common Thought: You purchase Pain with all that Joy can give, And die of nothing but a Rage to live. -- Alexander Pope _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Aug 9 12:16:47 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 12:16:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Speaking of Auden In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > I may have asked this before, here or on other lists. I don't recall that > anyone could answer, though of course I may be having a senior moment. In > any case, X. J. Kennedy in his intro poetry text quotes Auden as defining > poetry as "the clear expression of mixed feelings." I've never been able > to discover where that passage comes from. > > Does anyone know? Formerly known as? Hal "What, should we get rid of our ignorance, the very substance of our lives, merely in order to understand each other?" --R. P. Blackmur Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Thu Aug 9 12:33:40 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 11:33:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A call for Breakfast Poems In-Reply-To: <24.17711d27.28a364bb@aol.com> Message-ID: The Wounded Breakfast A huge shoe mounts up from the horizon, squealing and grinding forward on small wheels, even as a man sitting to breakfast on his veranda is suddenly engulfed in a great shadow almost the size of the night. He looks up and sees a huge shoe ponderously mounting out of the earth. Up in the unlaced ankle-part an old woman stands at a helm behind the great tongue curled forward; the thick laces dragging like ships' rope on the ground as the huge thing squeals and grinds forward; children everywhere, they look from the shoelace holes, they crowd about the old woman, even as she pilots this huge shoe over the earth. . . Soon the huge shoe is descending the opposite horizon, a monstrous snail squealing and grinding into the earth. . . The man turns to his breakfast again, but sees it's been wounded, the yolk of one of his eggs is bleeding. . . --Russell Edson __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Thu Aug 9 12:34:50 2001 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 12:34:50 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Speaking of Auden Message-ID: In a message dated 8/9/01 11:42:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, grahamd at mail.ripon.edu writes: > I may have asked this before, here or on other lists. I don't recall that > anyone could answer, though of course I may be having a senior moment. In > any case, X. J. Kennedy in his intro poetry text quotes Auden as defining > poetry as "the clear expression of mixed feelings." I've never been able > to discover where that passage comes from. > > Does anyone know? > > David, have you checked The Dyer's Hand? Hard to believe it's not in there somewhere. Mine's in a box somewhere, or I'd take it out to the hammock with a pile of breakfast poems. Jeffrey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Thu Aug 9 12:54:31 2001 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 12:54:31 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Speaking of Auden Message-ID: <60.1226c06d.28a41a47@aol.com> In a message dated 8/9/01 11:42:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, grahamd at mail.ripon.edu writes: > Bonus trivia question: what does the "X" in "X. J. Kennedy" stand for? > Hint: not "Xavier." > > > Joe, or not Joe, or x-Joe In any event, I have learned though the application of careful scholarship that *Joe* lives next door to a busy bike path in a hundred-year-old house with a colony of rabbits under the front porch. I am now searching for their names (the rabbits). Jeffrey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Jandhodge at aol.com Thu Aug 9 12:57:58 2001 From: Jandhodge at aol.com (Jandhodge at aol.com) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 12:57:58 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Speaking of Auden Message-ID: <12b.2ae7b55.28a41b16@aol.com> In a message dated 01-08-09 11:42:14 EDT, you write: << Bonus trivia question: what does the "X" in "X. J. Kennedy" stand for? Hint: not "Xavier." >> As Sam said, it stands for . . . nothing. His given name was John Fitzgerald[?] Kennedy, and he decided there were enough of those in the world [this before the presidency], and wanting something more distinctive, dubbed himself X. J. Jan From JforJames at aol.com Thu Aug 9 13:03:22 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 13:03:22 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] More Lost Lines Message-ID: I think I mentioned this site before, and obviously it's very hard to stump this list, but if you have a quote, or just some half-remembered lines, you'd like to attribute, here's a site that may help: The Poetry Library at Royal Festival Hall London, "Lost Quotations" noticeboard http://www.hayward-gallery.org.uk/poetry/ These beautiful lines (below) appeared in a Bar Mitzvah program. I asked the family if they knew who had written them. They didn't recall; and so far the quoted piece has stumped the Lost Quotations notice board as well. My admiration of your literary resourcefulness offered in lieu of a monetary reward. Finnegan --- Our angels Spend much of their time sleeping In their dreams They tear down the new houses by the sea And build old ones In their place No matter how long they may sleep One hundred, two hundred years Ten centuries is not too much The first to wake up takes the torch that has been handed down Adds a drop of oil to the lamp Blesses the eternal light And then recalls the name Of every other angel And one by one as they are remembered They wake up For them as for us There is nothing more beautiful than memory From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Thu Aug 9 13:23:55 2001 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 13:23:55 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Speaking of Auden Message-ID: <65.187f4500.28a4212b@aol.com> In a message dated 8/9/01 12:59:15 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Jandhodge at aol.com writes: > As Sam said, it stands for . . . nothing. His given name was John > Fitzgerald[?] Kennedy, and he decided there were enough of those in the > world > [this before the presidency], and wanting something more distinctive, > dubbed > himself X. J. > > Jan > Actually, he was born Joseph Charles Kennedy, 1929, Dover, New Jersey. Don't mess with me, I've been Googling. Jeffrey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Aug 9 13:24:59 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 13:24:59 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Speaking of Auden Message-ID: <27.19975e4d.28a4216b@cs.com> In a message dated 8/9/2001 11:59:15 AM Central Daylight Time, Jandhodge at aol.com writes: > As Sam said, it stands for . . . nothing. His given name was John > Fitzgerald[?] Kennedy, and he decided there were enough of those in the > world > [this before the presidency], and wanting something more distinctive, > dubbed > himself X. J. > > Jan > I think it was "Joseph Charles," but he did say that he took on the nom de plume to avoid any association with the "better-known" Kennedys. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wasanthony at yahoo.com Thu Aug 9 13:43:05 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 10:43:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Speaking of Auden In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010809174305.84464.qmail@web12105.mail.yahoo.com> --- Halvard Johnson wrote: > > I may have asked this before, here or on other lists. I don't > recall that > > anyone could answer, though of course I may be having a senior > moment. In > > any case, X. J. Kennedy in his intro poetry text quotes Auden as > defining > > poetry as "the clear expression of mixed feelings." I've never > been able > > to discover where that passage comes from. > > > > Does anyone know? > > Formerly known as? > Or, the offspring of the ubiquitous Madame X? - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From moira_russell at hotmail.com Thu Aug 9 13:47:15 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 09:47:15 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] A call for Breakfast Poems (LONG) Message-ID: Tad wrote: >Galway Kinnell has a good one about eating oatmeal with John Keats. WARNING: this is a long one. Oatmeal -Galway Kinnell (When One Has Lived a Long Time Alone) I eat oatmeal for breakfast. I make it on the hot plate and put skimmed milk on it. I eat it alone. I am aware it is not good to eat oatmeal alone. Its consistency is such that is better for your mental health if somebody eats it with you. That is why I often think up an imaginary companion to have breakfast with. Possibly it is even worse to eat oatmeal with an imaginary companion. Nevertheless, yesterday morning, I ate my oatmeal porridge, as he called it with John Keats. Keats said I was absolutely right to invite him: due to its glutinous texture, gluey lumpishness, hint of slime, and unsual willingness to disintigrate, oatmeal should not be eaten alone. He said that in his opinion, however, it is perfectly OK to eat it with an imaginary companion, and that he himself had enjoyed memorable porridges with Edmund Spenser and John Milton. Even if eating oatmeal with an imaginary companion is not as wholesome as Keats claims, still, you can learn something from it. Yesterday morning, for instance, Keats told me about writing the "Ode to a Nightingale." He had a heck of a time finishing it those were his words "Oi 'ad a 'eck of a toime," he said, more or less, speaking through his porridge. He wrote it quickly, on scraps of paper, which he then stuck in his pocket, but when he got home he couldn't figure out the order of the stanzas, and he and a friend spread the papers on a table, and they made some sense of them, but he isn't sure to this day if they got it right. An entire stanza may have slipped into the lining of his jacket through a hole in his pocket. He still wonders about the occasional sense of drift between stanzas, and the way here and there a line will go into the configuration of a Moslem at prayer, then raise itself up and peer about, and then lay \ itself down slightly off the mark, causing the poem to move forward with a reckless, shining wobble. He said someone told him that later in life Wordsworth heard about the scraps of paper on the table, and tried shuffling some stanzas of his own, but only made matters worse. I would not have known any of this but for my reluctance to eat oatmeal alone. When breakfast was over, John recited "To Autumn." He recited it slowly, with much feeling, and he articulated the words lovingly, and his odd accent sounded sweet. He didn't offer the story of writing "To Autumn," I doubt if there is much of one. But he did say the sight of a just-harvested oat field go thim started on it, and two of the lines, "For Summer has o'er-brimmed their clammy cells" and "Thou watchest the last oozings hours by hours," came to him while eating oatmeal alone. I can see him drawing a spoon through the stuff, gazing into the glimmering furrows, muttering. Maybe there is no sublime; only the shining of the amnion's tatters. For supper tonight I am going to have a baked potato left over from lunch. I am aware that a leftover baked potato is damp, slippery, and simultaneaously gummy and crumbly, and therefore I'm going to invite Patrick Kavanagh to join me. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Aug 9 13:49:23 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 13:49:23 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] A call for Breakfast Poems (LONG) Message-ID: <9f.197b8159.28a42723@cs.com> Kinnell really needs to get out more. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From moira_russell at hotmail.com Thu Aug 9 14:17:45 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 10:17:45 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] A call for Breakfast Poems (LONG) Message-ID: Didn't he climb Mt. Kinnock once? >Kinnell really needs to get out more. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From JforJames at aol.com Thu Aug 9 14:25:38 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 14:25:38 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] A tangle of recent threads Message-ID: (speaking to Melancholy Poets, Alan Dugan, & Lost Quotes) This is perhaps only a paraphrase of an outtake from an interview I may have once read... Interviewer: Mr. Dugan, why does all your poetry seem so dark? Dugan: Because I abhor cheap affirmation --- Finnegan From halvard at earthlink.net Thu Aug 9 14:38:19 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 14:38:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tonight's oration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Just a reminder that tonight is Dubya's oration on federal funding of stem-cell research. The standard he must meet is high: to wit-- the first president to be loved by his bitterest enemies" is dead the only man woman or child who wrote a simple declarative sentence with seven grammatical errors "is dead" beautiful Warren Gamaliel Harding "is" dead he's "dead" if he wouldn't have eaten them Yapanese Craps somebody might hardly never not have been unsorry,perhaps --E. E. Cummings Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Thu Aug 9 16:35:39 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 15:35:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Solving for X J In-Reply-To: <65.187f4500.28a4212b@aol.com> Message-ID: Jeffrey and Sam win the prize, with honorable mention to Jan. It's definitely Joseph, not John Kennedy. The story I heard, which may be blurred, was that young Joe Kennedy, poet, felt that there were too many unpoetic associations to that name, and so added the X. As for the Auden quote, I *have* skimmed through *The Dyer's Hand* on a number of occasions, but I've never turned up the passage. I'm no Auden expert, though, and might well have missed it. Can anyone help? David Graham +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ How about a new quiz? Who knows what Yusef Komunyakaa's birth name was? (In this case I don't--or rather, I'm unsure, having heard different stories.) ______________________________________ >As Sam said, it stands for . . . nothing. His given name was John >Fitzgerald[?] Kennedy, and he decided there were enough of those in the >world >[this before the presidency], and wanting something more distinctive, >dubbed >himself X. J. > >Jan > > > >Actually, he was born Joseph Charles Kennedy, 1929, Dover, New Jersey. Don't >mess with me, I've been Googling. > >Jeffrey __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From MillB at aol.com Thu Aug 9 17:46:43 2001 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 17:46:43 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] American Icons Message-ID: Greetings: This posting is not about breakfast poems. . .but it is relevant to poetry and teaching and such. Every semester, in my writing class, I "do" an American Icon section where students work with poems and other written text-- ****Successful icons should be immediately recognizable, comprehensible, powerful, even when their precise meaning is unclear or disputed: e.g., the flag, the six-shooter, Mount Rushmore. Icons should contain ambivalence, contradiction, incoherence: e.g., Tom Paine, Madonna, Daniel Boone, The Declaration of Independence. Icons can be emptied of significant meaning over time, their original three-dimensional historicity and contingency flattened into two dimensions -- or less: e.g., New England's little white churches, The Declaration of Independence. Unlike a sack, icons still stand upright even when empty, devoid of content they still somehow also remain 'real' and powerful; the Democrat donkey and Republican elephant. Icons can be lost, then rediscovered, reevaluated, redefined through time and across space: e.g., Anne Hutchinson, Malcolm X. An icon can be a person, place, item, text, event. . . ***** Some of the subjects I've used in the past are a little "done to death," (James Dean, Marilyn Monroe, John Wayne, Jello, CocaCola), and I would like to breathe new air into my assignments this coming fall. Any suggestions? Related poems, essays, topics? Ideas for icons that fit the above definition???? Many thanks, Mill From Cadaly at aol.com Thu Aug 9 18:01:43 2001 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Thu, 09 Aug 2001 18:01:43 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] American Icons Message-ID: <18.109b8623.28a46248@aol.com> I've got a new draft ms. called ALL THE ANGELS AND SAINTS which has got some germaine sections, but I wanted to point out that a look at Joseph Cornell might be really useful, and also his use of celebrity mags (precursors to TIGER BEAT, perhaps?), but so might a look at THE GOLDEN LEGEND, patron saints, and the Mormons, the Woody Allen movie CELEBRITY, and maybe even stuff like GUNSLINGER or recent Clark Coolidge re: Mitchum. Rgds, Catherine Daly cadaly at pacbell.net From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Aug 9 20:02:10 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 20:02:10 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] American Icons Message-ID: <91.eabd488.28a47e82@cs.com> There are enough Georgia O'Keeffe poems to fill a flower pot. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From duemer at clarkson.edu Thu Aug 9 20:07:39 2001 From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 20:07:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] American Icons References: <91.eabd488.28a47e82@cs.com> Message-ID: <026501c12130$787588c0$18724342@twcny.rr.com> There are enough Georgia O'Keefe poems to fill a greenhouse. ====================== Joseph Duemer School of Liberal Arts, 5750 Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699 315.268.3967 ====================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu Fri Aug 10 00:09:55 2001 From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Prentiss, Amber) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 00:09:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] American Icons Message-ID: the frontier Jimi Hendrix peace sign jeans Waffle House pick a chain store, any chain store that anarchy symbol thing Capitol Hill sneakers Tammy Faye Baker... etc. -Amber -----Original Message----- From: MillB at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 8/9/2001 5:46 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] American Icons Greetings: This posting is not about breakfast poems. . .but it is relevant to poetry and teaching and such. Every semester, in my writing class, I "do" an American Icon section where students work with poems and other written text-- ****Successful icons should be immediately recognizable, comprehensible, powerful, even when their precise meaning is unclear or disputed: e.g., the flag, the six-shooter, Mount Rushmore. Icons should contain ambivalence, contradiction, incoherence: e.g., Tom Paine, Madonna, Daniel Boone, The Declaration of Independence. Icons can be emptied of significant meaning over time, their original three-dimensional historicity and contingency flattened into two dimensions -- or less: e.g., New England's little white churches, The Declaration of Independence. Unlike a sack, icons still stand upright even when empty, devoid of content they still somehow also remain 'real' and powerful; the Democrat donkey and Republican elephant. Icons can be lost, then rediscovered, reevaluated, redefined through time and across space: e.g., Anne Hutchinson, Malcolm X. An icon can be a person, place, item, text, event. . . ***** Some of the subjects I've used in the past are a little "done to death," (James Dean, Marilyn Monroe, John Wayne, Jello, CocaCola), and I would like to breathe new air into my assignments this coming fall. Any suggestions? Related poems, essays, topics? Ideas for icons that fit the above definition???? Many thanks, Mill _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Aug 10 01:35:27 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 01:35:27 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] American Icons Message-ID: <110.3ac21aa.28a4cc9f@cs.com> In a message dated 8/9/2001 11:08:35 PM Central Daylight Time, aprentiss at agnesscott.edu writes: > the frontier > Jimi Hendrix > peace sign > jeans > Waffle House > pick a chain store, any chain store > that anarchy symbol thing > Capitol Hill > sneakers > Tammy Faye Baker... > etc. > -Amber > > Billie Holliday Elvis Babe Ruth Baby Ruth Tiger Woods Michael Jackson Michael Jordan Other Michaels Oprah Strom Thurmond Jackie O. Roy Orbison Marilyn Stuckeys (only in the South) R. E. Lee Stonewall Jackson Sherman Madonna Katherine Hepburn John Wayne Wayne Shoeless Joe Jackson Me Jesse James Jesse Jackson Jackson Pollock Jackson Browne Tom Wolfe Thomas Wolfe Hemingway Fred Astaire Ginger Rogers Allen Ginsberg James Dickey Edgar Allan Poe Ann Rice Edgar Rice Burroughs William Burroughs etc. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Aug 10 01:40:51 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 01:40:51 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] American Icons Message-ID: <115.2eaee8f.28a4cde3@cs.com> http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/poetry/antholog/mayers/sestina.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JoFuhrman at excite.com Fri Aug 10 01:55:48 2001 From: JoFuhrman at excite.com (Joanna Fuhrman) Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2001 22:55:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons Message-ID: <11040870.997422948697.JavaMail.imail@slippery> Hi Mill sounds like fun some things that come to mind right now of course, list member Rachel Loden does great things with icons in _Hotel Imperium_ also Connie Deanovich's Zombie Jet is fun-- great poem about cole porter and batwoman Linda Bierd's book coming out this fall should have lots too--mainly not american, but I know there are a few americans in there ok enough for now...I need to go to sleep take care, Joanna _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ From halvard at earthlink.net Fri Aug 10 08:14:17 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 08:14:17 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] American Movie Classics Message-ID: American Movie Classics 1. A woman masquerades as her own niece in order to win back the love of a man who doesn't recognize her after a runaway munitions worker is wrongly accused of murder. 2. A crisis hot line volunteer struggles to keep a suicidal woman on the phone while a wagon train travels through dangerous Indian territory. 3. A faith-healing country girl in the Ozarks falls for a cynical sergeant suspected of being a German spy. 4. A sultry woman meets a mysterious man in the Algerian desert and marries him, unaware of his attempts to turn state's evidence against a psychopathic killer. 5. A lawyer is forced to use guns instead of words to defend himself and his town against a nurse who believes he's innocent. 6. A judge sentences a man to death but delays the hanging because he fears an oilman, who in turn lusts for the playboy's bride. 7. A girl who was raised in a brothel must chose between two suitors? an ambulance driver and a nurse. 8. Three devoted brothers, serving in the Foreign Legion, battle Arabs as well as newlyweds adjusting to changes and hardships in post-WWII New York. 9. The unsteady relationship between a frumpy housewife and her alcoholic husband crumbles after the arrival of a legendary gunfighter, who learns he has cancer and attempts to retire, but finds he cannot escape his reputation. 10. A woman is stricken with amnesia, causing her to forget men of the sea and the friendships they form with one another. 11. A fortune hunter's plan to pass herself off as a dead heiress is jeopardized when an ousted magnate tries to regain his rightful place on the throne and returns home to find his girl engaged to the town bully, who may or may not be a spy for the Nazis. 12. When a man goes astray and becomes a cattle rustler, an old friend woos a glamorous starlet so she will endorse a particular brand of lipstick. 13. In WWII, a dedicated Navy doctor is determined to get himself and his patients to safety before a superstitious Welsh girl has an extramarital affair which turns destructive. 14. A wife ditches her spouse and flees to Florida, where she hobnobs with the Commander in Chief's psychoanalyst, who knows too much, quits his job, and is pursued by half the government. 15. A traveling theatrical troupe is constantly in trouble with a woman who has a vision of the Virgin Mary at Lourdes and incurs the scorn of the townspeople who doubt her, causing her to forget her one true love and go head-to-head with a band of buccaneers trying to hold off the Germans until reinforcements arrive. 16. An overzealous gunslinger faces cancer while in Mexico searching for an unattractive spinster wooed by a fortune hunter after the arrival of an attractive houseguest and three gold prospectors who are snowbound in the Klondike. 17. A reporter exploits a supposedly dying girl and turns her into a soldier, who wins a trip to Paris with a lovely starlet and an army psychologist. 18. Love gives a young Hollywood hopeful the maturity to become a legendary gunfighter who learns he has cancer and attempts to retire, but instead finds poignant drama in a movie which looks at the men of the sea and the friendships they form with one another. 19. In a small town, a murderer on the run seeks asylum on a fishing boat and decides to change his ways, but it may be too late; a dressmaker finds it difficult to keep a secret about her teenage daughter; an eccentric man, who owns a failing baseball team, dies, and leaves it to his pet cat; a girl slowly realizes that her beloved uncle is a wanted serial killer; an egotistical singer drops his side- kick and tries to succeed as a solo act; an innocent man seeks refuge on a plantation owned by a beautiful woman; a mentally unbalanced babysitter threatens the life of her charge; a possessive lawyer sends his sister's fiance to prison unjustly; a reformed outlaw tries to protect settlers' provisions from his crooked ex-partner; an incompetent fool is awarded the post of bank detective after foiling a robbery; a disturbed and crippled boy convicts an innocent man of murder; wedding bells lead to heartbreak when an American teacher discovers that her new husband is a gigolo who married her in order to immigrate. 20. A legendary gunfighter learns he has cancer and attempts to retire, but finds that a girl slowly realizing that her uncle is a wanted serial killer has been designed for "effortless living" on a fishing boat where a dressmaker finds it difficult to keep a secret about her teenage daughter, who braves the African jungle to find an intrepid explorer, who gives a young Hollywood hopeful the maturity to become a wanted serial killer who joins the French Foreign Legion to catch a fugitive Nazi who learns he has cancer and attempts to retire to Florida, where three beautiful women who ditch their chaperones and travel through Europe in the 192Os, where a former US war correspondent searches Paris orphanages trying to locate his son, who was born during WWII but is forced to take over a Mississippi steamboat from his irascible father until a sexy singer catches the eye of a navy lieutenant as rumblings of war creep toward them, and he, learning he has cancer, attempts to retire, but finds he cannot escape his reputation for violence, partial nudity, and some adult language. Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From wasanthony at yahoo.com Fri Aug 10 09:07:28 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 06:07:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] American Icons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010810130728.80279.qmail@web12102.mail.yahoo.com> --- MillB at aol.com wrote: > Greetings: > > This posting is not about breakfast poems. . .but it is relevant to > poetry > and teaching and such. But let us not forget Wheaties, the breakfast of champions. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From rloden at concentric.net Fri Aug 10 10:11:19 2001 From: rloden at concentric.net (Rachel Loden) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 07:11:19 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons References: <11040870.997422948697.JavaMail.imail@slippery> Message-ID: <3B73EB87.8DB59399@concentric.net> Hey thanks, Joanna. And you're right about Connie Deanovich, in both _Watusi Titanic_ and _Zombie Jet_: "Dating Patton" (as in General George S.), various Hitchcock poems, etc. Maxine Chernoff's work in _Leap Year Day_ and elsewhere is chockablock with icons ("Fred Astaire," "The Moe, Larry and Curly Conspiracy," cameos appearances by Mamie Eisenhower, Yul Brynner and a huge cast). Jim Elledge edited two anthologies about American pop cult (and political?) icons, _Real Things_ and _Sweet Nothings_. Rachel Joanna Fuhrman wrote: > > Hi Mill > > sounds like fun > > some things that come to mind right now > > of course, list member Rachel Loden does great things with icons in _Hotel > Imperium_ > > also Connie Deanovich's Zombie Jet is fun-- great poem about cole porter and > batwoman > > Linda Bierd's book coming out this fall should have lots too--mainly not > american, but I know there are a few americans in there > > ok enough for now...I need to go to sleep > > take care, > > Joanna > > _______________________________________________________ > Send a cool gift with your E-Card > http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Rachel Loden http://www.thepomegranate.com/loden/hotel.html email: rloden at concentric.net From bardo at optonline.net Fri Aug 10 10:15:46 2001 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 10:15:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] query on virus/Dan Zimmerman References: Message-ID: <016701c121a6$f2ae9520$ef7dbd18@win98> Kent, Thanks! But kill the message: it contains the Sircam virus, which hit my home machine while I taught in London, & sent itself out to everyone in my address book & cache. I used FixSirc, available from Symantec's site, to clean my machine. Best, Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: kent johnson To: Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 9:38 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] query on virus/Dan Zimmerman > I have an unopened message from "Daniel Zimmerman". It's subject heading is > "Warren 1297". I know that Dan Zimmerman is one fo the most interesting > poets writing, and I have heard that virused messges are coming from a > "Daniel Zimmerman." > > Poet Dan, if you are on list, could you tell me if this is you or someone > else? > > Kent > > ____________________________________________________ _____________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bardo at optonline.net Fri Aug 10 10:26:05 2001 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 10:26:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] calling Dan Zimmerman References: Message-ID: <019f01c121a8$63d65de0$ef7dbd18@win98> Nope: the Sircam worm sent itself from my machine to everyone in my address book and cache. It hit my home machine while I spent a month teaching in London. Kill it! Disinfect with Symantec's FixSirc program. Update virus definitions, too. Best, Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: kent johnson To: Sent: Monday, July 30, 2001 11:10 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] calling Dan Zimmerman > Dan, if you are on this list, could you tell me, ON LIST, if you have just > sent me a post titled "professional"? I won't open until I hear from you. > > thanks, > Kent > > ____________________________________________________ _____________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From duemer at clarkson.edu Fri Aug 10 10:28:21 2001 From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 10:28:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons References: <11040870.997422948697.JavaMail.imail@slippery> <3B73EB87.8DB59399@concentric.net> Message-ID: <006b01c121a8$b57bdb20$18724342@twcny.rr.com> Nobody has mentioned Bugs Bunny, the quintessential Brooklyn wise guy & archetypical trickster. jd ====================== Joseph Duemer School of Liberal Arts, 5750 Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699 315.268.3967 ====================== From JforJames at aol.com Fri Aug 10 11:08:53 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 11:08:53 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] American Icons Message-ID: If memory serves there were whole anthologies built of Elvis poems, Marilyn poems, and Barbie (But none on GI Joe, that I know of). My favorite Elvis poem ever: "Memphis" by David St. John. Generally speaking, I come to poetry to flee from popular culture and Americana run amok. I read a Denise Duhamel poem recently that was a long windy and whiny-funny complaint that John Ashbery had beat her to the subject of Darger, w/ his "Girls on the Run." Finnegan From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Fri Aug 10 11:28:26 2001 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 11:28:26 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons Message-ID: <111.3b02d3f.28a5579a@aol.com> Some random musings on icons, mixed liberally with heat-induced desuetude: Campbell McGrath is a modern prophet of contemporary culture in general, and harbors icons like they belong to him. I'm a thinkin' of Blue Tulips and Night Train for Jack Kerouac's Grave (ok, a demi-icon), WILD THING (his white Impala -- cars!!! -- and Vanna White, Roxy and the Cubs), all in AMERICAN NOISE, and then he has that Bob Hope Poem in SPRING COMES TO CHICAGO, Goldbarth, of course. Too many to mention. All of them? Duhamel's *Difference Between Pepsi and Pope,* *Cockroaches* (I know, I know, we didn't invent them, but we perfected them), *The Star-Spangled Banner,* all from, duh, THE STAR SPANGLED BANNER. Tom Sleigh, in THE DREAMHOUSE, manages to work Dr. Pepper (soft drinks!), the Bible (forgive, an icon), the V-6, Ali and Liston, Ford, Mantle, Maris & Mays, tricycles, the Plymouth Valiant with fins, to say nothing of Lethe's waters, into his poem, *Raft.* Lightman's EINSTEIN'S DREAMS, for believers that an icon can be, you know, like, um, smart, *The Other Woman* and *The Older Woman* (am I stretching?) in Steve Orlen's THE BRIDGE OF SIGHS, Wesley McNair pays homage to the dirty joke in *The Characters of Dirty Jokes,* and love handles (obsession with weight as American icon? can an obsession be an icon? why not?) in *Love Handles,* --both in TALKING IN THE DARK. *Introduction of the Shopping Cart,* *Fatty Arbuckle,* *Carl Yastrzemski* and others in Gerald Costanzo's NOBODY LIVES ON ARTHUR GODFREY BOULEVARD, Many (most? all?) of Ashbery's poems, but isn't there one with Disneyland or Mickey Mouse or some such, or all such? *The Vegas Cantos* and *Last Walk With Sinatra's Dog* a *translation* of Book 11, lines 138-157 of The Odyssey, from A PATH BETWEEN HOUSES by Greg Rappleye (Brittingham Prize). Long may they wave. Jeffrey Levine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Fri Aug 10 11:41:25 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 11:41:25 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons Message-ID: <90.187c0034.28a55aa5@aol.com> I may be just making this up, but I seem to remember that Jello & Kool-Ade where brands that Dana Gioia managed when he worked at General Foods. Does he have a Kool-Ade Man (big red pitcher w/ smiley face with a flair for dramatic entrances, like bursting thru thru stage sets, & coaxing kids into drinking quarts of artificial-colored & flavored sugar water) poem to show for all his years in the corporate America? Finnegan From wasanthony at yahoo.com Fri Aug 10 12:15:36 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 09:15:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons In-Reply-To: <006b01c121a8$b57bdb20$18724342@twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <20010810161536.79399.qmail@web12103.mail.yahoo.com> --- Joseph Duemer wrote: > Nobody has mentioned Bugs Bunny, the quintessential Brooklyn wise guy > & > archetypical trickster. ??< __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Fri Aug 10 12:25:24 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 09:25:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] American Icons Message-ID: <20010810162524.DA9FB2757@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Fri Aug 10 12:44:10 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 12:44:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Warhorse References: <20010810162524.DA9FB2757@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <003e01c121bb$b6ed71e0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> We raked "Show don't tell" over the coals here a couple of weeks ago. Any thoughts on the Imitative Fallacy? Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards From tadrichards at prodigy.net Fri Aug 10 12:46:38 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 12:46:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] American Icons References: <20010810162524.DA9FB2757@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <004201c121bc$06f9ffa0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> From: "Robert R.Cobb" > ... Dean & Jerry... > > Bob C. > SYLVIA --When are Tom Hanks and Meg Ryan going to make another of those wonderful romantic comedies, like Sleepless in Seattle or You've Got Mail? --Tom and Meg will certainly be looking for scripts they can do together. But meanwhile, they each have projects going on their own. They'll both be going in front of the cameras in biopics-Tom playing Dean Martin, while Meg does the life of Sylvia Plath. Give up those adorable Tom and Meg romances? It's too much to ask. And there's a better way. Sylvia loses the Mademoiselle competition. To make it up, her parents take her for a week in Havana. She meets Dino--handsome, gifted, unfulfilled. She tells him he needs a partner, a wisecracker, zany-"What about you, sweetheart?" Dean asks, eyes twinkling. Her parents take her back to Boston. She's shoved into Wellesley, Lowell, poetry, Ted Hughes, and Dean meets Jerry, who looks sort of like Sylvia, without her vivacious wit. Life pulls them apart, their chance at happiness lost.forever? It looks that way for Sylvia. One day, she decides to end it all. She goes to turn on the gas jet, but by mistake, hits the radio, hears, through the static, Everybody loves somebody sometime.Dean! He's playing the Albert Hall, with Jerry! She leaves Ted and his mistress minding the kids, she takes a cab, gets backstage to find Dean in his dressing room, a gun to his head. She pries it gently from his fingers. They talk all night, walking beside the Thames. Dean tells her he can't stand another night with Jerry. They've found each other. Jerry goes off to France, Dean and Sylvia head for Vegas, where he teaches her how to laugh again, she writes new material for him, brings a touch of profundity to his act: When a boot hits your eye like a big Nazi spy that's a Daddy. It's a happy ending for Sylvia, and there's a lesson to be learned from all of this: Tad Richards From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Fri Aug 10 12:57:37 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 11:57:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons In-Reply-To: <20010810161536.79399.qmail@web12103.mail.yahoo.com> References: <006b01c121a8$b57bdb20$18724342@twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: >--- Joseph Duemer wrote: >> Nobody has mentioned Bugs Bunny, the quintessential Brooklyn wise guy >> & >> archetypical trickster. > -------------- Here's an older one of mine on the topic at hand. I'd also be interested in learning, Mill, just what you do in your American Icons unit--what sort of exercises, readings, etc. David Graham -------------------------------- In Memory Of Bugs Bunny --for Mel Blanc, 1908-1989 1. Children, Bugs is dead and like some network madman holed up in a fast food restaurant he took a whole crowd with him: Tweetie Pie and Daffy Duck, Porky Pig, Foghorn Leghorn, Speedy Gonzales and Sylvester the Cat. But Bugs isn't just gone, he's immortal! Yeah, a regular unravished bride, silent town, child of time. In fact, your parents love him more than you do. *That's* what's up, Doc, along with the truth that he died ticked off at everything. 2. Bugs, without you the world flattens like soda, loses its wobbly tune, its testy explosions and regenerations. You had been to hell and gone in a flicker of one bellylaugh, and always returned, Biblical in your unfairness. Yes, we were jumped by joy in your skedaddling chicanery, and that voice!--it must have come from the marriage of delicatessen and borscht belt, how it kept one eye locked on the cash register as carrots exploded and the millions rolled in. 3. So let twenty junior high school bands with their hundreds of slapstick hearts beat cadence for this funeral that reruns will deny. We'll know the truth, won't we, children, who never die? How that blank man who made him talk can't be muzzled now. __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Fri Aug 10 13:11:04 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 12:11:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Musical Icons/Duhamel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And has anyone mentioned David Wojahn's very powerful sonnet sequence, "Mystery Train," in the book of that same title? Poems on Elvis, Buddy Holly, James Brown, Hank Williams, Jerry Lee Lewis, Woody Guthrie, Bob Marley, John Lennon, Janis Joplin, the Sex Pistols, et al. I taught Jim Elledge's rock & roll anthology *Sweet Nothings* a couple times, and was nonplussed to realize how meaningless most of the icons in it were to my 20-something students. They'd *heard* of John Lennon, most of them, but after that it was tough sledding. I had to explain who Ray Charles was, had to bring in recordings of "Johnny B. Goode" for them to hear, etc. I shall wear my trousers rolled. . . . David Graham ______________ By the way, the Denise Duhamel poem Jim Finnegan mentions, "Mia and Darger, Ashbery and Gina," is available in the Poetry Daily archives, if you wish to check it out. [ http://www.poems.com/miaanduh.htm ] Finnegan's right about its windiness and whininess, but despite all that, I found it very entertaining, in sort of a Blakean "Enough! Or, too much" sort of way. >If memory serves there were whole anthologies built >of Elvis poems, Marilyn poems, and Barbie (But none >on GI Joe, that I know of). >My favorite Elvis poem ever: "Memphis" by David St. John. >Generally speaking, I come to poetry to flee from >popular culture and Americana run amok. >I read a Denise Duhamel poem recently that was a long >windy and whiny-funny complaint that John Ashbery had >beat her to the subject of Darger, w/ his "Girls on the Run." >Finnegan __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From TerryP17 at aol.com Fri Aug 10 13:14:27 2001 From: TerryP17 at aol.com (TerryP17 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 13:14:27 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test Message-ID: <71.10fe5014.28a57074@aol.com> Jim-- You wrote: <> Visited Dana at his place in Santa Rosa in 1997. No Kool-Ade men there. Just a spacious, white house and a separate writing cabin atop a very high hill overlooking the Sonoma vinyards and Jack London country. Best poet's residence in the U.S. and I'm sure General Foods was a help, Jell-O, Kool-Ade or whatever! Jack London--now there was an American icon, at least in his day. --Terry Ponick From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Fri Aug 10 13:27:28 2001 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 13:27:28 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test Message-ID: In a message dated 8/10/01 1:15:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, TerryP17 at aol.com writes: > Jack London--now there was an American icon, at least in his day. > > Now a pinot noir from a noted California winery. Cosi fan tutti. Jeffrey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From maxpaul at sfsu.edu Fri Aug 10 14:32:28 2001 From: maxpaul at sfsu.edu (MAXINE CHERNOFF) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 11:32:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] American Icons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Paul Hoover has many iconic poems:" Sixteen Jackies", about Jackie O and Andy Warhol, "The Task" re/Ike and Tina Turner, "At the Desiring Vine" and lots more. MC On Fri, 10 Aug 2001 JforJames at aol.com wrote: > If memory serves there were whole anthologies built > of Elvis poems, Marilyn poems, and Barbie (But none > on GI Joe, that I know of). > My favorite Elvis poem ever: "Memphis" by David St. John. > Generally speaking, I come to poetry to flee from > popular culture and Americana run amok. > I read a Denise Duhamel poem recently that was a long > windy and whiny-funny complaint that John Ashbery had > beat her to the subject of Darger, w/ his "Girls on the Run." > Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Aug 10 14:37:49 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 14:37:49 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons Message-ID: In a message dated 8/10/2001 10:42:07 AM Central Daylight Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > > I may be just making this up, but I seem to remember > that Jello & Kool-Ade where brands that Dana Gioia > managed when he worked at General Foods. Does he > have a Kool-Ade Man (big red pitcher w/ smiley face > with a flair for dramatic entrances, like bursting thru > thru stage sets, & coaxing kids into drinking quarts > of artificial-colored & flavored sugar water) poem > to show for all his years in the corporate America? > Finnegan > This is silly, James. Should I have a mounted spindle of yarn because I used to work for Spray Cotton Mills? You might as well ridicule Stevens for working for the Hartford or Eliot for working for Lloyds--neither of which vocations made it into their poems. A poet's choice of work should not be a subject for easy fun. Would you go out and laugh at a neighbor because he sells cars? Or another because she manages a grocery store? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Aug 10 14:41:43 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 14:41:43 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Warhorse Message-ID: In a message dated 8/10/2001 11:47:23 AM Central Daylight Time, tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: > > We raked "Show don't tell" over the coals here a couple of weeks ago. Any > thoughts on the Imitative Fallacy? > > A lot of May Swenson's work could perhaps fall under this stricture. But I find it absolutely delightful. If you think there's a relationship between form and content (and who doesn't?) this "fallacy" seems pretty fallacious. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Aug 10 14:42:20 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 14:42:20 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons Message-ID: <85.e503d6c.28a5850c@cs.com> There's Ashbery's "Daffy Duck in Hollywood." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Fri Aug 10 14:43:15 2001 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 14:43:15 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons Message-ID: With apologies, I'm only a few weeks (2?) on the list. Who is Rsgwynn1 at cs.com please? (Not in any way meant as a comment on yr post. Just want to know.) Jeffrey Levine In a message dated 8/10/01 2:39:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: > In a message dated 8/10/2001 10:42:07 AM Central Daylight Time, > JforJames at aol.com writes: > > > > >> >> I may be just making this up, but I seem to remember >> that Jello & Kool-Ade where brands that Dana Gioia >> managed when he worked at General Foods. Does he >> have a Kool-Ade Man (big red pitcher w/ smiley face >> with a flair for dramatic entrances, like bursting thru >> thru stage sets, & coaxing kids into drinking quarts >> of artificial-colored & flavored sugar water) poem >> to show for all his years in the corporate America? >> Finnegan >> > > > This is silly, James. Should I have a mounted spindle of yarn because I > used > to work for Spray Cotton Mills? You might as well ridicule Stevens for > working for the Hartford or Eliot for working for Lloyds--neither of which > vocations made it into their poems. A poet's choice of work should not be > a > subject for easy fun. Would you go out and laugh at a neighbor because he > sells cars? Or another because she manages a grocery store? > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Fri Aug 10 14:44:48 2001 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 14:44:48 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons Message-ID: <29.18ff8da6.28a585a0@aol.com> In a message dated 8/10/01 2:43:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: > There's Ashbery's "Daffy Duck in Hollywood." > > > Yes! That's the one I meant. Brilliant poem! (Uh oh, here it comes.) Jeffrey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Aug 10 14:47:14 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 14:47:14 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons Message-ID: <74.e7403dd.28a58632@cs.com> Rsgwynn1 at cs.com is R. S. Gwynn. The one and only. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Aug 10 14:48:24 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 14:48:24 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons Message-ID: <117.2f1044c.28a58678@cs.com> In a message dated 8/10/2001 1:45:09 PM Central Daylight Time, FanwoodJEL at aol.com writes: > > >> There's Ashbery's "Daffy Duck in Hollywood." >> >> >> > > Yes! That's the one I meant. Brilliant poem! (Uh oh, here it comes.) > > I'm not much of an Ashbery fan, but I do like this one. Also "Farm Implements and Rutabagas in a Landscape," which features Popeye and company. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From moira_russell at hotmail.com Fri Aug 10 14:49:54 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 10:49:54 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Warhorse Message-ID: > > We raked "Show don't tell" over the coals here a couple of weeks ago. >Any thoughts on the Imitative Fallacy? Is that like the Pathetic Fallacy? Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From moira_russell at hotmail.com Fri Aug 10 14:51:38 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 10:51:38 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons Message-ID: >With apologies, I'm only a few weeks (2?) on the list. Who is >Rsgwynn1 at cs.com please? Someone with his own archive! http://www.library.swt.edu/swwc/archives/writers/gwynn.html He's Sam around here, though. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Aug 10 14:54:07 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 14:54:07 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons Message-ID: <105.787ddec.28a587cf@cs.com> http://deadlysins.com/snow.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Fri Aug 10 14:54:37 2001 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 14:54:37 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons Message-ID: In a message dated 8/10/01 2:48:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: > Rsgwynn1 at cs.com is R. S. Gwynn. The one and only. > > > is my face red! j e levine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Fri Aug 10 15:04:17 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 12:04:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons Message-ID: <20010810190417.5593D36F9@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Fri Aug 10 15:11:00 2001 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 15:11:00 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons Message-ID: <17.19d42ebc.28a58bc4@aol.com> In a message dated 8/10/01 3:05:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com writes: > Sam Gwynn. Welcome, Jeffrey. > > Bob Cobb > > Thanks, Bob. Great list. Call me Sam. Build me an archive. (If you build an archive, will they come?) Jeffrey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From moira_russell at hotmail.com Fri Aug 10 15:12:49 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 11:12:49 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons Message-ID: I have sent this poem to a lot of L.C. (Lapsed Catholic) friends (quite a few people). They all love it. Moira Russell Seattle, WA Wise Wretch! with Pleasures too refin'd to please; With too much Spirit to be e'er at ease; With too much Quickness ever to be taught; With too much Thinking to have common Thought: You purchase Pain with all that Joy can give, And die of nothing but a Rage to live. -- Alexander Pope >http://deadlysins.com/snow.html _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From JforJames at aol.com Fri Aug 10 15:45:42 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 15:45:42 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons Message-ID: In a message dated 8/10/01 2:39:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com writes: > This is silly, James. Should I have a mounted spindle of yarn because I used > > to work for Spray Cotton Mills? You might as well ridicule Stevens for > working for the Hartford or Eliot for working for Lloyds--neither of which > vocations made it into their poems. A poet's choice of work should not be a > > subject for easy fun. Would you go out and laugh at a neighbor because he > sells cars? Or another because she manages a grocery store? > Sam, I didn't think of it as laughing at someone's day job...but I was having a little fun thinking about what Kool-Ade Man really meant, in social terms as a minor American icon. It's a question Dana Gioia perhaps asked himself once or twice before getting out of the business world. BTW, my day job is selling insurance to banks...so I'm somewhere between the worlds of Eliot (banking) & Stevens (insurance). And in no position to cast stones. I justify my bi-polar existence by keeping in mind Willie Sutton's retort when they asked him why he robbed banks: "Because that's where the money is." Actually, I have a little cartoon pinned over my desk that says "Can the soul of poet live inside the body of insurance salesman?" It's an open question. A sad fact is that most of us don't choose our work...it's what we fall into and for a variety of reasons or circumstances, can't extricate ourselves from even if we wanted to. Finnegan From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Aug 10 16:03:44 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 16:03:44 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons Message-ID: In a message dated 8/10/2001 2:46:22 PM Central Daylight Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: > Sam, > I didn't think of it as laughing at someone's day job...but I was having a > little fun thinking about what Kool-Ade Man really meant, in social terms > as a minor American icon. It's a question Dana Gioia perhaps asked himself > once or twice before getting out of the business world. Fair enough. I must say that all of my experiences with Jell-O and Kool-Aid have been happy ones, even though I try to avoid both nowadays. Dana knew for a good while that he was getting out of Kraft/General Foods to write full time. He did well enough to retire from business at 40. Wish I could say the same about academia and my own nest egg. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Aug 10 16:06:10 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 16:06:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons References: Message-ID: <3B743EB2.5F77@nut-n-but.net> Ahem, I thought "Kool Ade" was wrong and thought it would be corrected, but then it was not, so I checked, and I was right, for once: it's KOOL AID! I assure you, if I had both Kool Aid and Jello in my background, they'd have gotten into my poems. If they ARE not in Gioia's, I would consider that instructive. Popsicles are at least once in my own poems--though not in my background, just equally classically American Icons. (I do look down on Stevens for working for an insurance since I have a low opinion of that particular racket, but I still number him among my three top American Poets. I'm neutral about Eliot's working for a bank. Ditto, Gioia.) --Bob G. From TerryP17 at aol.com Fri Aug 10 16:08:32 2001 From: TerryP17 at aol.com (TerryP17 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 16:08:32 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Electric Kool-Ade Acid Test deux Message-ID: Jeffery-- > Jack London--now there was an American icon, at least in his day. > > Now a pinot noir from a noted California winery. Cosi fan tutti. Score. Indeed, they all do it, particularly the Californians. You're right to point out that Jack's "icon" lives on on the label of "his" winery (owned by Kendall-Jackson, I think), many of whose vinyards are on the grounds of the magnificent London manse, sadly lost to fire not long after it was built. And awesome wines these are. Unfortunately, not many cases get to wineshops near my more modest pad in Virginia--I think the working stiffs in San Francisco have first dibs. Jack would have approved. Speaking of American icons and wine, we also have Davy Crockett, aka Fess Parker, who is really creating some outstanding reds as well. Not bad for a guy who once wore a coonskin cap. As a California acquaintance once said to me, "Friends don't let friends drink white zinfandel." --Terry Ponick From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Aug 10 16:16:31 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 16:16:31 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Electric Kool-Ade Acid Test deux Message-ID: <11c.2fa2903.28a59b1f@cs.com> In a message dated 8/10/2001 3:09:26 PM Central Daylight Time, TerryP17 at aol.com writes: > Speaking of American icons and wine, we also have Davy Crockett, aka Fess > Parker, who is really creating some outstanding reds as well. Not bad for a > guy who once wore a coonskin cap. > I beg to differ. His merlot is pretty bad. But he does have a nice resort in Santa Barbara. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Fri Aug 10 16:29:08 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 15:29:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Electric Kool-Ade Acid Test deux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I remember seeing some Elvis Wine years ago. Right on the label it noted that, although Elvis himself was not known to be much of a wine drinker, nonetheless *this* was the sort of wine that they felt he *would* have drunk, if he had drunk wine. I swear I am not making that up. No doubt someone out there has already written a poem about it. . . . David Graham ____________________ > >Now a pinot noir from a noted California winery. Cosi fan tutti. > >Score. Indeed, they all do it, particularly the Californians. You're right >to point out that Jack's "icon" lives on on the label of "his" winery >(owned by Kendall-Jackson, I think), many of whose vinyards are on the >grounds of the magnificent London manse, sadly lost to fire not long after >it was built. And awesome wines these are. Unfortunately, not many cases >get to wineshops near my more modest pad in Virginia--I think the working >stiffs in San Francisco have first dibs. Jack would have approved. > >Speaking of American icons and wine, we also have Davy Crockett, aka Fess >Parker, who is really creating some outstanding reds as well. Not bad for >a guy who once wore a coonskin cap. > >As a California acquaintance once said to me, "Friends don't let friends >drink white zinfandel." > >--Terry Ponick __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 10 16:28:53 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 16:28:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lost Epic Found!!! Message-ID: <3B744404.F0F6415C@ix.netcom.com> In the spring of 1995, brush fires raged out of control over the dry hills around San Francisco. Among the dozens of homes, businesses, tool sheds, crystal meth plants, bomb shelters, 16th century cathedrals, greenhouses, clandestine air strips and their hangers, outhouses, gazebos and jacuzzi's, a small white writer's cottage on an abandoned property was also consumed by the flames. Months later an editor from Reader's Digest was hiking in the foothills above the remnants of the writer's cottage. He decided to explore the ruin. Inside he discovered a partially burned manuscript of undetermined length. The title of the manuscript revealed the author's state of mind: The Enlightenment: AWork in Regress. Ever since paper conservators, ballistics experts and curators from the National Archive's, the Library of Congresss and the FBI have labored countless hours to reconstruct and preserve this text. Below you will find the first installment of the surviving text which has just this moment been made public. There are various theories as to the author, but at this point we simply seem to be dealing with virtually paranormal or fun house mirror problems of authorship. It has been suggested that the author is of alien origin; perhaps from Uruguay or Dutch Suriname. The text below seems to be loosely drawn from the Divine Comedy of Florentine politician and part-time poet, Dante Alighieri. (This has variously given rise to the author possibly being Eugene McCarthy, E. Howard Hunt, William S. Cohen or Rob Owen.) The fragment of the poem presented below relates a little known event in American history; the attempted assassination of a journalist by a prominent TX/CT family upon that journalist's publication of an expose in the Texas Observer of this family's connections with firms sympathetic to the Nazi's during the Second World War. The body of the tale itself is told by the blind, hermaphroditic seer, Tiresias to the heretofore unknown author of the text. It begins at charred edges "in medias res": Collateral Damage, or The Death of Classics in America And at that moment, Tiresias wandering like a Somnambulist Threw a Zip Loc on Forcas's Scalloped Lips. And invoking The Ancient Greek God of Household Savings whom the Romans called Variously Molli Lectus or Coqui Olla, he mounted a vision, The Car of Kronos with Four Chargers foaming and stamping in front And One Enormous Arrow in his Quiver, with a Tapestry of the Acropolis In Utter Ruins that dropped suspended from a Brass Banister running the Length of the Mezzanine of the Old Gold Exchange. And from his perch Tiresias declaimed: "Official Version, House Document 12588 or The Day the Classics in America Died. It all started with A Muckraking Journalist from the Lone Star State who Went snooping around in the Bush Clan's Nazi Archives And got George Senior all Frothing and Fearful At the Blasphemous Truths directed at Old Daddy Prescott. But matters became intolerable when this Muckraking News Hound, Who for Reasons of Levity, we will call Hamstrung, began to Dig around in Poppy's business deals and Capacious Acts of Felony and Fraud on the part of The Juniors and Jeb. It's then that the Wheels of Dallas Justice ? la Lyndon Johnson, Bill Moyers and Mack Wallace began To grind again in its Fiefdom, Washington DC. It's mildly Suspicious that Gordon Liddy had John Dean fill in On his Talk Show and that Howard Hunt missed His Knife Throwing Class. And that Jeb was in Florida Beating his Manatee. And Junior was in Texas Executing a Schoolgirl. And Dad was in Kennebunkport Where they keep Prescott Sr. in an old Amana Freezer. And Scowcroft was in orbit on the Shuttle Dyspepsia, mapping new sights for Israeli 'Avocados' under Exclusive Contract To the Sultan of Brunei. And Eagleburger Was at the annual Vernon Walters Belly Flop Contest Leaving Impact Craters in Pure H2O. And Donald Gregg was using the Family Vacation, Once again, as an Occasion for Perjury. Dick Secord was Being Crowned Emperor of the Plain of Jars By Pharmaceuticals Executive, Vang Pao. And Felix Rodriguez was cutting sacks of Powdered Milk with Runway Quality Cement. And Tom Clines was burning Edwin Wilson's Appeals in a Trash Bin behind the George Bush Memorial Torture Theatre in the Round On the Backlot at Langley Studios. And Albert Hakim Was wiping the Belly Button Account off his Hard Drive With his tongue. And Dewey Clarridge was picking his Ass At Ilopango. And Robert Gates was having his Larynx Replaced with a #2 Clarinet Reed while Walter Pincus Called in Sick at the CIA. John Singlaub was hunting Guatemalan Orphans on the Back Lot at Disney World. Posada Carilles was on assignment for the N.Y. Times And Ricky Morales was doing the Lights for The Ted Koppel Christmas Special called "General Pinochet: Is the U.S. Doing Enough To Protect His Rights," Sponsored by Vita-Germ, Fort Detrick's first attempt To exploit the Burgeoning American Market in Race-Specific Over-The-Counter Sterilization Bacilli. Henry Kissinger was having his Back Hot-Waxed while He fought his extradition to Hanoi. And Frank Carlucci Was parked at a Panorama overlooking the Potomac just as William Colby pushed Off in his Kayak not noticing Ted Shackley, who was fishing from a Nearby Pier, As he signaled to Frank Sturgis disguised as a Despondent Congressional Aid fiddling with an outboard. Joseph Alsop Was channeling through Howard Kurtz as he puttered at the Keyboard Of his Powerful PC. And 6000 Specially Selected Latin American Military Personnel were attending the Late Klaus Barbie's Taped Seminar, "Human Rights: Fact or Fiction," Specifically the section entitled "How Not To Give Yourself Away at an Exhumation" with Helpful Hints Like Avoid the High-Five with your Co-Assassins, Don't Send Out For Takeout, and Cover All Tattoos That Display the Image of Reagan or Mein Fuhrer. And Our All-Knowing, All-Seeing, Exotically Omnipotent God was playing dice with Enrico Fermi and Four Roman Centurions against the Wall of a Stall in the Lawrence Livermore Laboratory's Lavatories. So when Hamstrung, late for an Interview with the Community Access Show, Print News Report with a Viewership of 8, Approached the Driveway of the Marriott Hotel, his accelerator Jammed and his rented Yugo hurtled Headlong toward The Collective Genius of the Society of American Classicists Gathered for their annual convention. Now why these Brilliant Scholars were walking in the road instead of the Broad Sidewalk Provided by the Good People of the City of Washington has Become the subject of Endless and Monumentally Idle Speculation. Some think that, even though the Doors of Athenian Temples were Powered by Steam, the Ancestors of The same doors that breach our contemporary Wal-Mart; in short, Even though Ancient Greece is the Cradle of Western Technology, The Burp Place of Modern Science, the Classicists so caught up In their Eros and Agape ignore the Very Existence Of the Piston, the Pneumatic Tire and the Attendant Rat Race. Others attribute it to a Vague a/k/a Liberal Concern for the Environment, a result of Europe being in the throws Of Rome for at least ten centuries too Long. And others say A Shifty Fellow dressed as a Bellhop with Lieutenant Colonel's Stripes Requested that the Scholars strut in the Road to spare the Sidewalk Undo wear. But No Man would say their Deaths were caused by Hubris or Monstrous Pride. The Net Result was the Sabotaged Car Like a Deus Ex Machina in some ignored Product Safety Expert's Wet Dream plowed through the Cream of Classicist Thought. And That is why, despite the Protestations of America's Most Patriotic of Poets, the Classics, whether Catullus or Kung, Due to Alleged Mass Vehicular Manslaughter on the part Of a Bush Cabal, Do Not Have a Wide Circulation, Pal. I know there are Readers who will chalk this up To the Conspiratorial Blitherings of a Blind Psychic with the Genitals of Both Subsets. But indeed "the sale of [panty] hose Has long since superseded the cultivation of Pierian roses." And when All the Profits have been Assiduously Computed; And All the Debts passed on to the Weak; And when All The Starving have been extorted; and All Political Favors Duly Dispensed; And All the Laundries have been acquitted; And All the Systems checked against Balance; And All the Asses That Count have been kissed. One must Conclude with Utter Certainty That Five Hundred Dead Classicists have hardly been missed. And call it Simple Manslaughter Or call it Vehicular Homicide. There's One Thing that's for Certain; The American People were just along for the Ride." "No Regrets!!" Homer hooted, churning the Air with his Fist. Gracious Mammon said, "Thank you, Tiresias, for your Inspiring Tale. But let's get you and Your Charge Through Hell here so Forcas and I can get back to work.' From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Aug 10 16:32:12 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 16:32:12 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Electric Kool-Ade Acid Test deux Message-ID: <24.178793eb.28a59ecc@cs.com> In a message dated 8/10/2001 3:30:19 PM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at mail.ripon.edu writes: > > I remember seeing some Elvis Wine years ago. Right on the label it noted > that, although Elvis himself was not known to be much of a wine drinker, > nonetheless *this* was the sort of wine that they felt he *would* have > drunk, if he had drunk wine. > > I swear I am not making that up. No doubt someone out there has already > written a poem about it. . . . > > My liquor store has it. Also they stock Marilyn Merlot. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Aug 10 06:09:18 2001 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 05:09:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] American Icons Message-ID: Dead Poets Society Over plain and plateau, you go, long tongue lolling, As far up ahead on the Arizona sand, Your feather-brained nemesis is rapidly roaring Over gulch, flat, and arroyo in a blue blur of smoke. O Wile E. Coyote, won't you ever wise up To the truth, that that blue bird's an unlikely catch? All your tar pits and glue traps, your trompe l'oeil painted billboards Only catch or confound you, while Road Runner flees. Your dynamite delays, fuses fizzling like sparklers, Till your prey's out of range, then explodes in your face. Still, you strap on Icarian wings, an Acme rocket, And, confidently poising yourself on the brink Of another disaster, hear that haunting meep-meep That fires up your rockets and sends you flying furiously Smack into a cliff face. . . or with featherless wings, For a few frantic seconds, treading measureless air, Till a quick double-take shows your depthless dumb folly And you curse the first dimwit who said, "Seize the day." Paul Lake From tadrichards at prodigy.net Fri Aug 10 22:35:06 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 22:35:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] American Movie Classics References: Message-ID: <004601c1220e$3c19e0e0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Hal -- I liked American Movie Classics a lot. It goes some very nice places. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Halvard Johnson" To: "New-Poetry at Wiz. Cath. Vt. Edu" Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 8:14 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] American Movie Classics American Movie Classics 1. A woman masquerades as her own niece in order to win back the love of a man who doesn't recognize her after a runaway munitions worker is wrongly accused of murder. 2. A crisis hot line volunteer struggles to keep a suicidal woman on the phone while a wagon train travels through dangerous Indian territory. 3. A faith-healing country girl in the Ozarks falls for a cynical sergeant suspected of being a German spy. 4. A sultry woman meets a mysterious man in the Algerian desert and marries him, unaware of his attempts to turn state's evidence against a psychopathic killer. 5. A lawyer is forced to use guns instead of words to defend himself and his town against a nurse who believes he's innocent. 6. A judge sentences a man to death but delays the hanging because he fears an oilman, who in turn lusts for the playboy's bride. 7. A girl who was raised in a brothel must chose between two suitors? an ambulance driver and a nurse. 8. Three devoted brothers, serving in the Foreign Legion, battle Arabs as well as newlyweds adjusting to changes and hardships in post-WWII New York. 9. The unsteady relationship between a frumpy housewife and her alcoholic husband crumbles after the arrival of a legendary gunfighter, who learns he has cancer and attempts to retire, but finds he cannot escape his reputation. 10. A woman is stricken with amnesia, causing her to forget men of the sea and the friendships they form with one another. 11. A fortune hunter's plan to pass herself off as a dead heiress is jeopardized when an ousted magnate tries to regain his rightful place on the throne and returns home to find his girl engaged to the town bully, who may or may not be a spy for the Nazis. 12. When a man goes astray and becomes a cattle rustler, an old friend woos a glamorous starlet so she will endorse a particular brand of lipstick. 13. In WWII, a dedicated Navy doctor is determined to get himself and his patients to safety before a superstitious Welsh girl has an extramarital affair which turns destructive. 14. A wife ditches her spouse and flees to Florida, where she hobnobs with the Commander in Chief's psychoanalyst, who knows too much, quits his job, and is pursued by half the government. 15. A traveling theatrical troupe is constantly in trouble with a woman who has a vision of the Virgin Mary at Lourdes and incurs the scorn of the townspeople who doubt her, causing her to forget her one true love and go head-to-head with a band of buccaneers trying to hold off the Germans until reinforcements arrive. 16. An overzealous gunslinger faces cancer while in Mexico searching for an unattractive spinster wooed by a fortune hunter after the arrival of an attractive houseguest and three gold prospectors who are snowbound in the Klondike. 17. A reporter exploits a supposedly dying girl and turns her into a soldier, who wins a trip to Paris with a lovely starlet and an army psychologist. 18. Love gives a young Hollywood hopeful the maturity to become a legendary gunfighter who learns he has cancer and attempts to retire, but instead finds poignant drama in a movie which looks at the men of the sea and the friendships they form with one another. 19. In a small town, a murderer on the run seeks asylum on a fishing boat and decides to change his ways, but it may be too late; a dressmaker finds it difficult to keep a secret about her teenage daughter; an eccentric man, who owns a failing baseball team, dies, and leaves it to his pet cat; a girl slowly realizes that her beloved uncle is a wanted serial killer; an egotistical singer drops his side- kick and tries to succeed as a solo act; an innocent man seeks refuge on a plantation owned by a beautiful woman; a mentally unbalanced babysitter threatens the life of her charge; a possessive lawyer sends his sister's fiance to prison unjustly; a reformed outlaw tries to protect settlers' provisions from his crooked ex-partner; an incompetent fool is awarded the post of bank detective after foiling a robbery; a disturbed and crippled boy convicts an innocent man of murder; wedding bells lead to heartbreak when an American teacher discovers that her new husband is a gigolo who married her in order to immigrate. 20. A legendary gunfighter learns he has cancer and attempts to retire, but finds that a girl slowly realizing that her uncle is a wanted serial killer has been designed for "effortless living" on a fishing boat where a dressmaker finds it difficult to keep a secret about her teenage daughter, who braves the African jungle to find an intrepid explorer, who gives a young Hollywood hopeful the maturity to become a wanted serial killer who joins the French Foreign Legion to catch a fugitive Nazi who learns he has cancer and attempts to retire to Florida, where three beautiful women who ditch their chaperones and travel through Europe in the 192Os, where a former US war correspondent searches Paris orphanages trying to locate his son, who was born during WWII but is forced to take over a Mississippi steamboat from his irascible father until a sexy singer catches the eye of a navy lieutenant as rumblings of war creep toward them, and he, learning he has cancer, attempts to retire, but finds he cannot escape his reputation for violence, partial nudity, and some adult language. Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Fri Aug 10 23:25:06 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 20:25:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] American Icons Message-ID: <20010811032506.EC0FD36F9@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu Sat Aug 11 01:12:28 2001 From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Prentiss, Amber) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 01:12:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons Message-ID: I still drink Kool-Aid. So do my parents. I'll eat Jell-O, too, though I wouldn't bother making it because it takes too much time to jell. I also don't know a zinfandel from a white grape squashed beneath my shoe. Does that get me kicked off the list? -Amber -----Original Message----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 8/10/2001 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons In a message dated 8/10/2001 2:46:22 PM Central Daylight Time, JforJames at aol.com writes: Sam, I didn't think of it as laughing at someone's day job...but I was having a little fun thinking about what Kool-Ade Man really meant, in social terms as a minor American icon. It's a question Dana Gioia perhaps asked himself once or twice before getting out of the business world. Fair enough. ?I must say that all of my experiences with Jell-O and Kool-Aid have been happy ones, even though I try to avoid both nowadays. ?Dana knew for a good while that he was getting out of Kraft/General Foods to write full time. ?He did well enough to retire from business at 40. ?Wish I could say the same about academia and my own nest egg. From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Aug 11 02:25:48 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 02:25:48 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons Message-ID: In a message dated 8/11/2001 12:11:21 AM Central Daylight Time, aprentiss at agnesscott.edu writes: > I also don't know a zinfandel from a white grape squashed beneath my shoe. > Does that get me kicked off the list? > As I recall, you aren't 21 yet. You've got years to learn (but not yet). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mbales at cybergate.net Sat Aug 11 08:54:27 2001 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 08:54:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] On W's Stem Cell Research Decision In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On W's Stem Cell Research Decision Half-measured compromise is politics, I guess: though no one likes it we abide The awkward checks and balances that fix No policy as permanent, no guide To good except competing dirty tricks. But even if we finally set aside Political triangulation, W -- Doesn?t the backwards moralizing trouble you? Your moral theory seems to hold that those Whatever-they-may-bes that we may call Mere cell collections, gametes, embryos, Potential life or babies, are not all Created equal. Potential parents chose To make a few in love, while labs install This cell in that to try to cure disease ? And you think human life is which of these? If any cells deserve the decent rites Of human death it seems it ought to be The ones that might have come to term. It spites The sanctity of human life to free Ourselves from meaning and intent. It blights Our ethics with convenience to agree To use that which, by circumstantial oddity Once almost human, now is a commodity. Commodity! Where are you Faulconbridge When most we need you? Where are you to rant Against a king who demonstrates no smidge Of sometime moral agency; who can't See why unlabeled things inside the fridge Or freezer are not his -- that he has scant Or no entitlement to other peoples' stuff; That that he wants to is just not good enough? mbales at cybergate.net http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Aug 11 09:15:34 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 09:15:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] American Movie Classics In-Reply-To: <004601c1220e$3c19e0e0$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: Many thanks, Tad. I take it you're a Hudson Valley guy, right? I myself was born in Newburgh and lived for various lengths of time in Middletown, Kingston, Carmel, Yonkers, and of course NYC. The Lordly Hudson, ah. Hal > Hal -- I liked American Movie Classics a lot. It goes some very nice places. > > > Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." > The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet > of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 > http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Halvard Johnson" > To: "New-Poetry at Wiz. Cath. Vt. Edu" > Sent: Friday, August 10, 2001 8:14 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] American Movie Classics > > > American Movie Classics > > 1. > A woman masquerades as her own niece > in order to win back the love of a man > who doesn't recognize her after a runaway > munitions worker is wrongly accused > of murder. > > 2. > A crisis hot line volunteer struggles to keep > a suicidal woman on the phone > while a wagon train travels through > dangerous Indian territory. > > 3. > A faith-healing country girl in the Ozarks > falls for a cynical sergeant suspected of being > a German spy. > > 4. > A sultry woman meets a mysterious man > in the Algerian desert and marries him, unaware > of his attempts to turn state's evidence > against a psychopathic killer. > > 5. > A lawyer is forced to use guns instead of words > to defend himself and his town against > a nurse who believes he's innocent. > > 6. > A judge sentences a man to death > but delays the hanging because he fears > an oilman, who in turn lusts > for the playboy's bride. > > 7. > A girl who was raised in a brothel > must chose between two suitors? > an ambulance driver and a nurse. > > 8. > Three devoted brothers, serving > in the Foreign Legion, battle Arabs as well > as newlyweds adjusting to changes > and hardships in post-WWII New York. > > 9. > The unsteady relationship between > a frumpy housewife and her alcoholic husband > crumbles after the arrival of a legendary > gunfighter, who learns he has cancer and attempts > to retire, but finds he cannot escape his reputation. > > 10. > A woman is stricken with amnesia, causing her > to forget men of the sea and the friendships > they form with one another. > > 11. > A fortune hunter's plan to pass herself off as > a dead heiress is jeopardized when > an ousted magnate tries to regain his rightful place > on the throne and returns home to find > his girl engaged to the town bully, > who may or may not > be a spy for the Nazis. > > 12. > When a man goes astray and becomes > a cattle rustler, an old friend woos > a glamorous starlet so she > will endorse a particular brand of lipstick. > > 13. > In WWII, a dedicated Navy doctor > is determined to get himself and his patients > to safety before a superstitious > Welsh girl has an extramarital affair > which turns destructive. > > 14. > A wife ditches her spouse and flees > to Florida, where she hobnobs with > the Commander in Chief's psychoanalyst, > who knows too much, quits his job, > and is pursued by half the government. > > 15. > A traveling theatrical troupe is constantly > in trouble with a woman who has > a vision of the Virgin Mary at Lourdes > and incurs the scorn of the townspeople > who doubt her, causing her to forget > her one true love and go head-to-head > with a band of buccaneers trying to > hold off the Germans until > reinforcements arrive. > > 16. > An overzealous gunslinger > faces cancer while in Mexico > searching for an unattractive spinster > wooed by a fortune hunter > after the arrival of an attractive houseguest > and three gold prospectors who are > snowbound in the Klondike. > > 17. > A reporter exploits a supposedly > dying girl and turns her into > a soldier, who wins a trip to > Paris with a lovely starlet and > an army psychologist. > > 18. > Love gives a young Hollywood hopeful > the maturity to become a legendary gunfighter > who learns he has cancer and attempts > to retire, but instead finds poignant > drama in a movie which looks at the men > of the sea and the friendships they > form with one another. > > 19. > In a small town, > a murderer on the run seeks asylum > on a fishing boat and decides > to change his ways, but > it may be too late; > a dressmaker finds it difficult > to keep a secret about > her teenage daughter; > an eccentric man, who owns > a failing baseball team, > dies, and leaves it to his pet cat; > a girl slowly realizes that her beloved > uncle is a wanted serial killer; > an egotistical singer drops his side- > kick and tries to succeed as > a solo act; > an innocent man seeks refuge > on a plantation owned > by a beautiful woman; > a mentally unbalanced babysitter > threatens the life of her charge; > a possessive lawyer sends > his sister's fiance to prison > unjustly; > a reformed outlaw tries > to protect settlers' provisions > from his crooked ex-partner; > an incompetent fool > is awarded the post of bank > detective after foiling > a robbery; > a disturbed and crippled boy > convicts an innocent > man of murder; > wedding bells lead to > heartbreak when an American > teacher discovers that her new > husband is a gigolo who > married her in order to immigrate. > > 20. > A legendary gunfighter learns he has cancer and attempts to retire, > but finds that a girl slowly realizing that her uncle is a wanted serial > killer > has been designed for "effortless living" on a fishing boat > where a dressmaker finds it difficult to keep a secret about her > teenage daughter, who braves the African jungle to find an intrepid > explorer, > who gives a young Hollywood hopeful the maturity to become > a wanted serial killer who joins the French Foreign Legion > to catch a fugitive Nazi who learns he has cancer and > attempts to retire to Florida, where three beautiful women > who ditch their chaperones and travel through Europe in the 192Os, > where a former US war correspondent searches Paris > orphanages trying to locate his son, who was born during > WWII but is forced to take over a Mississippi steamboat > from his irascible father until a sexy singer catches the eye > of a navy lieutenant as rumblings of war creep toward them, and he, > learning he has cancer, attempts to retire, but finds he cannot escape > his reputation for violence, partial nudity, and some adult language. > > > > > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From msnider at mindspring.com Sat Aug 11 10:49:34 2001 From: msnider at mindspring.com (Michael Snider) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 10:49:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] On W's Stem Cell Research Decision In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200108111452.KAA20487@smtp6.mindspring.com> Bravo! On Saturday, August 11, 2001, at 08:54 AM, Marcus Bales wrote: > From: "Marcus Bales" > Date: Sat Aug 11, 2001 08:54:27 AM US/Eastern > To: "'new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu '" , > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: [New-Poetry] On W's Stem Cell Research Decision > Reply-To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > On W's Stem Cell Research Decision > > Half-measured compromise is politics, > I guess: though no one likes it we abide > The awkward checks and balances that fix > No policy as permanent, no guide > To good except competing dirty tricks. > But even if we finally set aside > Political triangulation, W -- > Doesn?t the backwards moralizing trouble you? > > Your moral theory seems to hold that those > Whatever-they-may-bes that we may call > Mere cell collections, gametes, embryos, > Potential life or babies, are not all > Created equal. Potential parents chose > To make a few in love, while labs install > This cell in that to try to cure disease ? > And you think human life is which of these? > > If any cells deserve the decent rites > Of human death it seems it ought to be > The ones that might have come to term. It spites > The sanctity of human life to free > Ourselves from meaning and intent. It blights > Our ethics with convenience to agree > To use that which, by circumstantial oddity > Once almost human, now is a commodity. > > Commodity! Where are you Faulconbridge > When most we need you? Where are you to rant > Against a king who demonstrates no smidge > Of sometime moral agency; who can't > See why unlabeled things inside the fridge > Or freezer are not his -- that he has scant > Or no entitlement to other peoples' stuff; > That that he wants to is just not good enough? > > mbales at cybergate.net > http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From mbales at oh.verio.com Fri Aug 10 16:25:39 2001 From: mbales at oh.verio.com (mbales at oh.verio.com) Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2001 16:25:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons In-Reply-To: <3B743EB2.5F77@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <3B740B03.24273.9CE16B2@localhost> > I assure you, if I had both Kool Aid and > Jello in my background, they'd have gotten into my poems.< Rah. > (I do look down on Stevens for working for an insurance since I have a > low opinion of that particular racket,...< So do you have a hierarchy of jobs, then, or "rackets", that make some people more pure or holy than others, Bob? mbales at oh.verio.net From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Aug 11 12:14:52 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 12:14:52 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] On W's Stem Cell Research Decision Message-ID: <85.e5bdba4.28a6b3fc@cs.com> In a message dated 8/11/2001 7:39:02 AM Central Daylight Time, mbales at cybergate.net writes: > On W's Stem Cell Research Decision > Well-turned! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Aug 11 12:15:58 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 12:15:58 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Roundup Message-ID: <67.1846d229.28a6b43e@cs.com> I have a roundup review of Kumin, Kizer, Schnackenberg, and two first-book poets, Diane Thiel and Sarah Cortez, in the current (summer) Hudson Review. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Aug 11 13:21:12 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 13:21:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons References: <3B740B03.24273.9CE16B2@localhost> Message-ID: <3B756988.2FC3@nut-n-but.net> mbales at oh.verio.com wrote: > > > I assure you, if I had both Kool Aid and > > Jello in my background, they'd have gotten into my poems.< > > Rah. > > > (I do look down on Stevens for working for an insurance since I have a > > low opinion of that particular racket,...< > > So do you have a hierarchy of jobs, then, or "rackets", that make > some people more pure or holy than others, Bob? What I have is a hierarchy of occupations in which some rank higher than others with regard to value for other human beings, Marcus. I suspect this does not make me unique among human beings. I might add that there are many occupations that seem to me worse than Stevens's. --Bob G. From wasanthony at yahoo.com Sat Aug 11 13:25:57 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 10:25:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons In-Reply-To: <3B756988.2FC3@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <20010811172557.45460.qmail@web12103.mail.yahoo.com> --- Bob Grumman wrote: > mbales at oh.verio.com wrote: > > > > > I assure you, if I had both Kool Aid and > > > Jello in my background, they'd have gotten into my poems.< > > > > Rah. > > > > > (I do look down on Stevens for working for an insurance since I > have a > > > low opinion of that particular racket,...< > > > > So do you have a hierarchy of jobs, then, or "rackets", that make > > some people more pure or holy than others, Bob? > > What I have is a hierarchy of occupations in which some rank higher > than others with regard to value for other human beings, Marcus. I > suspect this does not make me unique among human beings. I might > add that there are many occupations that seem to me worse than > Stevens's. > "Developer" is way down there on my list. As for others, it's kind of like, . . . uh, trying to nail jello to the wall. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From klvarnes at home.com Sat Aug 11 14:08:58 2001 From: klvarnes at home.com (Kathrine Varnes) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 13:08:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] who is R.S? In-Reply-To: <24.178793eb.28a59ecc@cs.com> Message-ID: An impossible question to answer! But as he has a penchant for clerihews . . . R. S. Gwynn committed one sin but as it occurred on a listserv (flagrante) the appropriate circle's not given by Dante. Kathrine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Aug 11 14:16:24 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 14:16:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons References: <20010811172557.45460.qmail@web12103.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3B757678.7FD8@nut-n-but.net> Yeah, developer would be a lot lower on my list than insurance- salesman. Though I do believe that there are decent developers, who want to do well for both Mom Nature and people who need houses. Just haven't met any of them. --Bob G. > "Developer" is way down there on my list. As for others, it's kind of > like, . . . uh, trying to nail jello to the wall. > > - Jim From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sat Aug 11 14:22:54 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 14:22:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons References: <3B740B03.24273.9CE16B2@localhost> Message-ID: <003201c12292$a3eef280$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> From: > > > (I do look down on Stevens for working for an insurance since I have a > > low opinion of that particular racket,...< > > So do you have a hierarchy of jobs, then, or "rackets", that make > some people more pure or holy than others, Bob? > > Absolutely. I do. Big league ballplayer would be on top. Bass singer in a doo-wop group would be second. From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Sat Aug 11 14:47:17 2001 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 14:47:17 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons Message-ID: In a message dated 8/11/01 2:25:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, tadrichards at prodigy.net writes: > Absolutely. I do. Big league ballplayer would be on top. Bass singer in a > doo-wop group would be second. > > Well, dropping this back scalewise to do (as in do, a deer, a female deer), I heard recently from a poet friend that, these days, he's doing reading gigs backed by someone he styles an *avant-garde bassist.* Now, all the bass players I've ever known are waaay this side of avant-garde, still, that seems just the right job, no? avant-gardly plunking the vibratory low notes behind, say, R. S. (Sam-I-Am) Gwynn, he in natty tux and cummerbund (Hindi, of course, by way of Persian). Right there with you on second-team doo-wop. Jeffrey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gmcvay at patriot.net Sat Aug 11 15:47:07 2001 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 15:47:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons In-Reply-To: <003201c12292$a3eef280$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: >>>Absolutely. I do. Big league ballplayer would be on top. Bass singer in a doo-wop group would be second.<<< Leaving aside the question of the pure, holy Pete Rose... Everybody please rush out and avail yourself of any album by the Persuasions (I am partial to their album of Grateful Dead cover tunes, but that's just me). Their bass singer can hit notes that are lower than whale shit. He doesn't look like you'd think he might; he isn't big or burly. The big, burly guy in the group is the lead tenor. The bass, whose hand I got to shake, looks like a middle-aged chiropractor (my own nomination for holy occupation). Gwyn From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Aug 11 17:51:29 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 17:51:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And how can the American Icons thread not include something from the sequence of poems called "Star Vehicles" in Wayne Koestenbaum's *Rhapsodies of a Repeat Offender*? There are poems there on Bette Davis, Sophia Loren, Ida Lupino, Rita Hayworth, Raquel Welch, and Greta Garbo, among others. Here's the one on Ida Lupino: Ida's Glove Ida Lupino appeared on "This Is Your Life," one of her hands gloved. Some prior mystery ruined the hand; she wears a glove to hide the flaw. Her protege'es rustle in the studio audience, waiting to bear public witness to the star's *noir* greatness. Ida owes me an explanation for her glove on "This Is Your Life." Was the defect congenital or late-blooming? Was the hand paralyzed? What undocumented malady justifies the glove on national TV? "Hello, Ida Lupino, this is your life!" I, too, had a life, most of it unextraordinary. I will not trouble you with its detailed recapitulation. Watching Ida on "This Is Your Life," I discover a place for my perplexity: 1956, when my mother was twenty-six, and I wasn't born, is still a cue ball poised for flight on the past's green baize pool table, amid smoke and raillery in the pool hall where I gamble away my life, the pool hall of acedia, the pool hall of worthless fancy, the pool hall of sacrilege and rise-and-fall. In Ida's movies I see no enigmatic glove, no wounded hand. Damage only appears belatedly, on "This Is Your Life." Thus the program is not her career's flattering summation but an extra, disastrous occasion, masked as joy. --Wayne Koestenbaum Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From wasanthony at yahoo.com Sat Aug 11 19:44:30 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Sat, 11 Aug 2001 16:44:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010811234430.31284.qmail@web12105.mail.yahoo.com> And what about Ricky Ricardo? This one, by Jim Simmerman, takes an elliptical path out of popular culture, but what good poem wouldn't if it wanted to survive? - Jim Ricky Ricardo Drinks Alone I-yi-yi-yi! look at that moon floating up there like a teaspoon of sweet cane sugar or the head of a conga drum. Someone said the man in the moon is an old Cuban fisherman who sold his boat for enough bay rum to sail out of his body one soft Havana night, and half the time I think it's true. Laugh if you like, but I have watched his eyes fix upon the thatched hat of a woman who waits each night by the dock for her late sailor to return, only to see the morning paint a blue and emptier harbor, only to turn once more from the sea and yearn slowly home, across fallow tideland. Her long yellow dress made her look, from a distance, like a canary, come to sing the forests back. What has become of the rain that cut through the night like maracas? And of the flower monger whose hand was a warm garden on my neck? And of the sails that hovered like doves on the horizon? And of the clop- clop-clop of Lucinda? I want to stop the moon with a bray sometimes. I want to bray so sweetly it will fly backward, like an empty bottle over my shoulder. Bray until I am back on the beach with my father, learning to tie a bowline, mend a net. There was a song he sang - I remember how the surf beat out time, though the words, the words . . . Low tide left me shells shaped like pink fans. Luck was the bright bit of glass I found one day. Keep it close, he told me. Memory is a ship in a bottle. The bottle breaks. - Jim Simmerman _Home_, 1983 ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From mbales at cybergate.net Sun Aug 12 06:30:55 2001 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 06:30:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons In-Reply-To: <3B756988.2FC3@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: > What I have is a hierarchy of occupations in which some rank higher > than others with regard to value for other human beings, Marcus. I > suspect this does not make me unique among human beings. I might add > that there are many occupations that seem to me worse than Stevens's. I agree having such a hierarchy of occupations doesn't make you unique; and in all likelihood your stated propensity for looking down on some doesn't make you unique, either. It is, however, unusual to find someone so willing to openly declare that being a lawyer for an insurance company is an occupation to look down on. But common as it may be to have a hierarchy of occupations, it seems to me that we ought not "look down" on people because of their occupations. It seems to me that the notion of "look down on" is a notion of moral judgment and that it is, thus, not a notion that lends itself readily to such a broad-brush generalization as that all insurance men, or all lawyers, or even all insurance lawyers, are to be looked down on. mbales at cybergate.net http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From mbales at cybergate.net Sun Aug 12 06:34:16 2001 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 06:34:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons In-Reply-To: <20010811172557.45460.qmail@web12103.mail.yahoo.com> References: <3B756988.2FC3@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: BG: > > What I have is a hierarchy of occupations ...<< JCervantes: > "Developer" is way down there on my list....<< No good or moral people can be developers? No developers can be good or moral people? What about "venture capitalists"? Or "personal injury lawyers"? Or "dumpster divers"? Or "loan sharks"? Or "prostitutes"? mbales at cybergate.net http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From mbales at cybergate.net Sun Aug 12 06:35:11 2001 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 06:35:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons In-Reply-To: <3B757678.7FD8@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: BGrumman > Yeah, developer would be a lot lower on my list than insurance- > salesman. ...<< Who's the insurance salesman? mbales at cybergate.net http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From mbales at cybergate.net Sun Aug 12 06:36:48 2001 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 06:36:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons In-Reply-To: <003201c12292$a3eef280$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Message-ID: BG: > > (I do look down on Stevens for working for an insurance since I > > have a low opinion of that particular racket,...< MB: > So do you have a hierarchy of jobs, then, or "rackets", that make > some people more pure or holy than others...<< OldMole: > Absolutely. I do. Big league ballplayer would be on top. Bass singer > in a doo-wop group would be second.<< Ty Cobb was a famously dirty big-league ballplayer. Him, too? mbales at cybergate.net http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Aug 12 06:45:08 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 06:45:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons References: Message-ID: <3B765E34.3412@nut-n-but.net> > > What I have is a hierarchy of occupations in which some rank higher > > than others with regard to value for other human beings, Marcus. This does not equal the statement: all those who have an occupation I rank low are scum, Marcus. In the first place, I'm talking about occupations, not those who hold them. In the second place, I'm saying I have a low opinion of some occupations, not that I ABHOR those occupations TO THE NTH DEGREE, as you imply (e.g., while I would prefer massage parlors in my neighborhood to insurance offices, I would not campaign against the latter). In the third place, I'm stating a generality (i.e., I don't use the word, "all," and expect the phrase, "in general," to be understood). You're in your hyper-quibblic I-gotta-put-the-evil-thinkers-in- their-place mode, though, so I doubt that you'll be able to understand any of these points. Sorry, I'm not up to further helping you. --Bob G. From groggydays at hotmail.com Sun Aug 12 08:20:06 2001 From: groggydays at hotmail.com (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 13:20:06 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons References: Message-ID: From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Aug 12 10:10:37 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 10:10:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And here's a taste of Edward Field's "The Life of Joan Crawford" (just the first three sections--for the rest, see either his collection *Variety Photoplays* or his *New and Selected Poems*. The Life of Joan Crawford for Barbara Barry She was a working girl from a small town but the town wasn't so small that it didn't have a railroad track dividing the right side from the wrong side. On the right side was the Hill where the swells lived in big houses, and on the wrong side, the Hollow where the proletariat spent their greasy and unrewarding lives. (For in those days the American town was a living demonstration of Marxist theory). Joan of course lived in the Hollow in one of those shacks with sagging porches the mill put up rows of for the workers. Her father, Tim Crawford, was the town drunk living on relief and odd jobs ever since the mines closed down when Joan was a baby. He had been waiting for them to reopen for twenty years. Joan never knew what had happened to her mother: Joan's birth, her mother's disappearance or death, the mine's closing, that was in a time of violence no one would discuss. Just mention it and her father went on a binge, not that he was ever sober. She sighed, and went off to work in the five-and-ten wearing her made-over dress with little washable collar and cuffs. Even with her prole accent and the cheap bag and shoes she was a good looker. Men used to come by in their flashy suits and big cigars, call her tootsie and ask for a date, but she knew a poor girl didn't stand a chance with them. She wasn't one of those innocents who think a guy loves you if he gets a hard-on. Yet she wouldn't go with any of the boys from the Hollow because with them the future was sleazy with kids and the ruin of her figure before she was thirty-- and no fun after the honeymoon except the Friday-night fight when he would come home stinking, having drunk up the paycheck and beat her black and blue when she threw the stack of overdue bills at him and then screw her viciously on the dining-room table. Some fun. That was life in the Hollow and she wasn't having any. She had turned down a job at the five-and-ten where people called her Miss and she could pose genteelly behind the Tangee cosmetic display and the ribbon counter. For Joan had the makings of a lady if she could ever get some dough to fix herself up with and a speech teacher to correct her dreadful accent. . . . --Edward Field Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From mbales at cybergate.net Sun Aug 12 10:36:02 2001 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 10:36:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > From my point of view, 'look down' is something that doesn't trouble > Vice-Presidents of insurance companies, nor property developers, nor > litigation lawyers, the poor things, but does have a very immediate > and personal feel to persons who might be telephone operators, for > instance, especially if they live in a culture that is predicated on > status-snobbery.<< But isn't it pretty much self-evident that those who declare that they "look down on" this or that occupation are living in a culture predicated on status-snobbery? > Some of the Stevens poems are brilliant, the funny ones especially, > but his social and political attitudes stank, he thought Eisenhower a > dangerous radical, for Christ's sake. Well, objecting to Stevens's own views on their merits is something entirely different from objecting to him on the general moral principle that those who work for insurance companies ought to be looked down on. mbales at cybergate.net http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From mbales at cybergate.net Sun Aug 12 10:51:04 2001 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 10:51:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons In-Reply-To: <3B765E34.3412@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: > "What I have is a hierarchy of occupations in which some rank > higher than others with regard to value for other human beings...:" Bob Grumman: > This does not equal the statement: all those who have an > occupation I rank low are scum....I'm talking about occupations, > not those who hold them.<< No, but I don't assert it does; instead I infer that you probably hold the person in the same low esteem you hold their occupation if you, as you clearly do from your open declaration, are willing to generalize so broadly about occupations. You were, after all, speaking about an esteemed poet as a poet who you "look down on" as a poet, as a person, because of his occupation! And now you are trying to say you do not look down on him as a poet or a person even though you look down on his occupation? What's the point of saying ANYTHING about his occupation in the first place, then, if you didn't mean to look down on him or his poetry by looking down on his occupation? If you make such a radical separation, what's the point of bringing up the occupation at all EXCEPT to make the separation: "Even though Stevens's career as an insurance lawyer produced in him political views that were so conservative that he thought Eisenhower a dangerous radical, his poetry is marked by a freedom of thought and feeling that makes his politics irrelevant" or something of that sort? mbales at cybergate.net http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Sun Aug 12 12:42:32 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 11:42:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] More American Icons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Looks like it's up to me to bring William Trowbridge into this discussion--American iconographer extraordinaire. I'm thinking of his many King Kong poems, of course (e.g. "Kong Views an Experimental Film"), but also of the great variety of other icons he tackles and occasionally topples. The great American pastime, for instance: Poets' Corner by William Trowbridge They put me in right field because I didn't pitch that well or throw or catch or hit, because I tried to steer the ball like a paper plane, watched Christmas gifts with big red ribbons floating through the strike zone, and swung at dirt balls. So they played the odds, sent me out there in the tall grass by the Skoal sign, where I wandered distant as the nosebleed seats my father got us in Comiskey Park, my teammates looking remote and miniature, their small cries and gesticulations like things remembered from a dream. I went dreamy, sun on my face, the scent of sod and bluegrass, the lilt of birdcall and early cricket bending afternoon away from fastballs and hook slides to June's lazy looping single: baseball at its best, my only fear the deep fly with my name on it, meteoric as Jehovah or Coach Bob Zambisi closing in to deliver once again the meaning of the game: what it takes to play, why I had to crouch vigilant as a soldier in combat, which he never had the privilege of being, and stop that lolling around with my head up my ass, watching the birdies and picking dandelions like some kind of little priss, some kind of Percy Bitch Shelby. ____________________ Then there is Buster Keaton, which produced one of my very favorite Trowbridge poems: Saint's Life Let's face it, classmates, faith's a gift for being too amazed, too curious to be afraid when a pasture full of shit hits the fan, when the huge blind finger on the horizon finds your house and flicks you out an upstairs window. Think of little Buster, windborne, descending like a kite four blocks away, bemused by Joe and Myra's cries. Now, when his life flickers miraculously before us, we fly with him, reel to reel, in a dream of ourselves: blessed survivors in a world where nothing works, where everything, sooner or later, breaks, clogs, goes kerflooey. We show the immortal deadpan, all staring and cheekbones, as the house falls, the boat sinks, the Lizzie dies on the tracks, sure we'll think of something before time runs out or discover the whole thing's a bluff we can call by simply standing still: the wall crashes harmlessly around us, the boat rises on a submarine, the train switches tracks and blusters off. Dressed in solemn oaths, our faults and stewings chase us through the streets, waving their billys, too fat, too dumb, too choked with rage to ever beat us to the next corner, the next unreeling, where the anarchist's bomb serves only to light our cigarette. The secret it not to break the face's holy silence, not to laugh, not even to lift an eyebrow: it gives us away, spoils the gag, wakes us in midair. --William Trowbridge _____________________________________ David Graham >And how can the American Icons thread not include something >from the sequence of poems called "Star Vehicles" in Wayne >Koestenbaum's *Rhapsodies of a Repeat Offender*? There >are poems there on Bette Davis, Sophia Loren, Ida Lupino, >Rita Hayworth, Raquel Welch, and Greta Garbo, among >others. Here's the one on Ida Lupino: > __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From msnider at mindspring.com Sun Aug 12 13:38:24 2001 From: msnider at mindspring.com (Michael Snider) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 13:38:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More American Icons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200108121741.NAA27172@hall.mail.mindspring.net> David, "Poet's Corner" reminded me of my own short career in baseball. I played one season of Little League at third base. One game I was spinning around, arms outstretched, and a line drive hit my glove and stuck. I didn't know I had caught the ball and searched frantically on the ground while everyone yelled at me and the runner on second stole third. It was the last game I played in. On Sunday, August 12, 2001, at 12:42 PM, David Graham wrote: > Looks like it's up to me to bring William Trowbridge into this > discussion--American iconographer extraordinaire. I'm thinking of his > many > King Kong poems, of course (e.g. "Kong Views an Experimental Film"), but > also of the great variety of other icons he tackles and occasionally > topples. > > The great American pastime, for instance: > > Poets' Corner > by William Trowbridge > > > They put me in right field > because I didn't pitch that well > or throw or catch or hit, > because I tried to steer the ball > like a paper plane, watched > Christmas gifts with big > red ribbons floating through > the strike zone, and swung > at dirt balls. So they played the odds, > sent me out there in the tall grass > by the Skoal sign, where I wandered > distant as the nosebleed seats > my father got us in Comiskey Park, > my teammates looking > remote and miniature, > their small cries and gesticulations > like things remembered > from a dream. I went dreamy, > sun on my face, the scent > of sod and bluegrass, the lilt > of birdcall and early cricket > bending afternoon away > from fastballs and hook slides > to June's lazy looping > single: baseball at its best, > my only fear the deep fly > with my name on it, > meteoric as Jehovah > or Coach Bob Zambisi > closing in to deliver once > again the meaning of the game: > what it takes to play, why I had to > crouch vigilant as a soldier > in combat, which he never > had the privilege of being, > and stop that lolling around > with my head up my ass, > watching the birdies and picking > dandelions like some kind of > little priss, some kind > of Percy Bitch Shelby. > ____________________ > > Then there is Buster Keaton, which produced one of my very favorite > Trowbridge poems: > > Saint's Life > > Let's face it, classmates, faith's a gift > for being too amazed, too curious > to be afraid when a pasture full of shit > hits the fan, when the huge blind finger > on the horizon finds your house and flicks you out > an upstairs window. Think of little Buster, > windborne, descending like a kite four blocks > away, bemused by Joe and Myra's cries. > > Now, when his life flickers miraculously before us, > we fly with him, reel to reel, in a dream of ourselves: > blessed survivors in a world where nothing works, > where everything, sooner or later, breaks, clogs, > goes kerflooey. We show the immortal deadpan, > all staring and cheekbones, as the house falls, > the boat sinks, the Lizzie dies on the tracks, > sure we'll think of something before time runs out > or discover the whole thing's a bluff we can call > by simply standing still: the wall crashes > harmlessly around us, the boat rises on a submarine, > the train switches tracks and blusters off. > > Dressed in solemn oaths, our faults and stewings > chase us through the streets, waving their billys, > too fat, too dumb, too choked with rage to ever > beat us to the next corner, the next unreeling, > where the anarchist's bomb serves only to light > our cigarette. The secret it not to break > the face's holy silence, not to laugh, > not even to lift an eyebrow: it gives us away, > spoils the gag, wakes us in midair. > --William Trowbridge > _____________________________________ > > David Graham > >> And how can the American Icons thread not include something >> from the sequence of poems called "Star Vehicles" in Wayne >> Koestenbaum's *Rhapsodies of a Repeat Offender*? There >> are poems there on Bette Davis, Sophia Loren, Ida Lupino, >> Rita Hayworth, Raquel Welch, and Greta Garbo, among >> others. Here's the one on Ida Lupino: >> > > __________________ > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > __________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sun Aug 12 14:42:20 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:42:20 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons Message-ID: <33.19509c88.28a8280c@cs.com> In a message dated 8/12/2001 5:19:45 AM Central Daylight Time, mbales at cybergate.net writes: > Who's the insurance salesman? > Isn't Ted Kooser an insurance agent? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sun Aug 12 14:43:30 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 14:43:30 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons Message-ID: <32.19400a08.28a82852@cs.com> In a message dated 8/12/2001 9:17:52 AM Central Daylight Time, halvard at earthlink.net writes: > And here's a taste of Edward Field's "The Life of Joan Crawford" > Field also has a good one about the comic strip Nancy. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jholmes at boisestate.edu Sun Aug 12 17:16:07 2001 From: jholmes at boisestate.edu (Janet Holmes) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 15:16:07 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons Message-ID: I admit I've been skipping over these messages really quickly, but it's been clear to me ever since I've been on this list that the occupation most looked-down-upon by New-Poetry poets is that of an employed academic teaching creative writing. (Which figures, since when I was in the corporate world, academics found it humorous that I considered myself a poet. Maybe directing software projects for a printing company wasn't as glamourous as being a lawyer or a food company's top exec? Or maybe being wealthy makes the occupation irrelevant?) Is anyone else finding this discussion absurd? Surely one of you is already writing a poem about the taxonomy of occupations ... Janet Holmes http://english.boisestate.edu/jholmes "Assistant Professor and Proud Of It" >>> new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu 08/12/01 10:01AM >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: ; Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 11:30 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons > > What I have is a hierarchy of occupations in which some rank higher > > than others with regard to value for other human beings, Marcus. I > > suspect this does not make me unique among human beings. I might add > > that there are many occupations that seem to me worse than Stevens's. > > I agree having such a hierarchy of occupations doesn't make you > unique; and in all likelihood your stated propensity for looking down > on some doesn't make you unique, either. It is, however, unusual > to find someone so willing to openly declare that being a lawyer for > an insurance company is an occupation to look down on. > > But common as it may be to have a hierarchy of occupations, it > seems to me that we ought not "look down" on people because of > their occupations. It seems to me that the notion of "look down > on" is a notion of moral judgment and that it is, thus, not a notion > that lends itself readily to such a broad-brush generalization as that > all insurance men, or all lawyers, or even all insurance lawyers, are > to be looked down on. > > > mbales at cybergate.net > http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From AP201070 at BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU Sun Aug 12 18:24:48 2001 From: AP201070 at BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (Henry) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 18:24:48 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <010812.183918.EDT.AP201070@BROWNVM.brown.edu> THE PECKING ORDER OF MEN OF THE NILE ACCORDING TO VICE-REGENT-QUEEN- BEE-MOTHER HATPSHEPTSHPUT, KINGDOM OF EGYPT, 6,542 BC 1. Pharaoh 2. Pharaoh's First-Born 3.-18. Pharoah's 2nd to 15th-born Son 19. Pharaoh's Daughter 20. Head Fan-Holder 21. Assistant to Head Fan-Holder 22. Fan-Holder's Assistant's Assistant 23. Fan-Holder's Assistant's Assistant's Head Chef 24. Busboy (Royal) 25. Busboy (Regular) 26. Busboy (Royal)'s Chauffeur 27. Commander-in-Chief of the Pharoah's Army & Navy 28. Hair Stylist to Queen Habshabmamut 29. Stone-Mason #1 30. Tax Collector's Official Astrologer 31. Hieroglyphologist to Tax Collector's Official Astrologer (Full-Time) 32. Head Manager of Pharaonic Bingo-Hall 33. Honorable Laugher-In-Times-Of-Levity 34. Associate Director of Laughter Management 35. Important Main Silencer at Royal Occasions (sometimes supersedes #33 in Authority) 36. Nile Gahbahgeman 37. Poet/Effeminate Person for State Ceremonies 38. Official Mocker of Poet/Effeminate Person 39. Insurance Agent for Upper Nile Region 40. Slave 41. Assistant Slave 42. Official Assistant to Assistant Slave 43. Joe (in charge of granaries for the time being) From mbales at cybergate.net Sun Aug 12 18:57:16 2001 From: mbales at cybergate.net (Marcus Bales) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 18:57:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: BG: > > > What I have is a hierarchy of occupations in which some rank > > > higher than others with regard to value for other human beings, > > > Marcus. I suspect this does not make me unique among human > > > beings. I might add that there are many occupations that seem to > > > me worse than Stevens's. MB: > > I agree having such a hierarchy of occupations doesn't make you > > unique; and in all likelihood your stated propensity for looking > > down on some doesn't make you unique, either. It is, however, > > unusual to find someone so willing to openly declare that being a > > lawyer for an insurance company is an occupation to look down on. > > But common as it may be to have a hierarchy of occupations, it > > seems to me that we ought not "look down" on people because of > > their occupations. It seems to me that the notion of "look down on" > > is a notion of moral judgment and that it is, thus, not a notion > > that lends itself readily to such a broad-brush generalization as > > that all insurance men, or all lawyers, or even all insurance > > lawyers, are to be looked down on. Janet Holmes: > Is anyone else finding this discussion absurd? Surely one of you > is already writing a poem about the taxonomy of occupations...<< It's my point that the taxonomy of occupations to which Mr Grumman admits (that he feels entitled to "look down on" an insurance man from wherever it is that Mr Grumman sits, and that there are even lower positions on the rungs than that) implies a moral judgment of the person in the occupation if that moral judgment is not explicitly set aside in some way. My question is whether there are occupations in Mr Grumman's taxonomy that he may say, and we may approve of him saying, are so soul-deadening that they can produce no poetry, no art, no good life? That's what Mr Grumman's taxonomy seems to me to demand: that we approve of his dismissal of all the workers in the insurance industry, Wallace Stevens included, as non-poets, people to look down on because of their occupations. Surely THAT is absurd. But to have the discussion, to object to Mr Grumman's taxonomy, surely that is NOT absurd, but rather necessary. mbales at cybergate.net http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Sun Aug 12 18:50:51 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 15:50:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons Message-ID: <20010812225052.504F736F9@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sun Aug 12 21:09:41 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:09:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons References: Message-ID: <003101c12394$a32dbc20$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Janet -- it never occurred to me that it wasn't absurd. Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Janet Holmes" To: Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 5:16 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons > I admit I've been skipping over these messages really quickly, but it's been clear to me ever since I've been on this list that the occupation most looked-down-upon by New-Poetry poets is that of an employed academic teaching creative writing. (Which figures, since when I was in the corporate world, academics found it humorous that I considered myself a poet. Maybe directing software projects for a printing company wasn't as glamourous as being a lawyer or a food company's top exec? Or maybe being wealthy makes the occupation irrelevant?) > > Is anyone else finding this discussion absurd? Surely one of you is already writing a poem about the taxonomy of occupations ... > > Janet Holmes > http://english.boisestate.edu/jholmes > "Assistant Professor and Proud Of It" > > >>> new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu 08/12/01 10:01AM >>> > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Marcus Bales" > To: ; > Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 11:30 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons > > > > > What I have is a hierarchy of occupations in which some rank higher > > > than others with regard to value for other human beings, Marcus. I > > > suspect this does not make me unique among human beings. I might add > > > that there are many occupations that seem to me worse than Stevens's. > > > > I agree having such a hierarchy of occupations doesn't make you > > unique; and in all likelihood your stated propensity for looking down > > on some doesn't make you unique, either. It is, however, unusual > > to find someone so willing to openly declare that being a lawyer for > > an insurance company is an occupation to look down on. > > > > But common as it may be to have a hierarchy of occupations, it > > seems to me that we ought not "look down" on people because of > > their occupations. It seems to me that the notion of "look down > > on" is a notion of moral judgment and that it is, thus, not a notion > > that lends itself readily to such a broad-brush generalization as that > > all insurance men, or all lawyers, or even all insurance lawyers, are > > to be looked down on. > > > > > > mbales at cybergate.net > > http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tadrichards at prodigy.net Sun Aug 12 21:12:17 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:12:17 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons References: Message-ID: <004101c12394$feaf0720$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Unless Bob Grumman was kidding, to start with..... Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: ; Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 6:57 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons > BG: > > > > What I have is a hierarchy of occupations in which some rank > > > > higher than others with regard to value for other human beings, > > > > Marcus. I suspect this does not make me unique among human > > > > beings. I might add that there are many occupations that seem to > > > > me worse than Stevens's. > > MB: > > > I agree having such a hierarchy of occupations doesn't make you > > > unique; and in all likelihood your stated propensity for looking > > > down on some doesn't make you unique, either. It is, however, > > > unusual to find someone so willing to openly declare that being a > > > lawyer for an insurance company is an occupation to look down on. > > > But common as it may be to have a hierarchy of occupations, it > > > seems to me that we ought not "look down" on people because of > > > their occupations. It seems to me that the notion of "look down on" > > > is a notion of moral judgment and that it is, thus, not a notion > > > that lends itself readily to such a broad-brush generalization as > > > that all insurance men, or all lawyers, or even all insurance > > > lawyers, are to be looked down on. > > Janet Holmes: > > Is anyone else finding this discussion absurd? Surely one of you > > is already writing a poem about the taxonomy of occupations...<< > > It's my point that the taxonomy of occupations to which Mr > Grumman admits (that he feels entitled to "look down on" an > insurance man from wherever it is that Mr Grumman sits, and that > there are even lower positions on the rungs than that) implies a > moral judgment of the person in the occupation if that moral > judgment is not explicitly set aside in some way. > > My question is whether there are occupations in Mr Grumman's > taxonomy that he may say, and we may approve of him saying, are > so soul-deadening that they can produce no poetry, no art, no good > life? That's what Mr Grumman's taxonomy seems to me to > demand: that we approve of his dismissal of all the workers in the > insurance industry, Wallace Stevens included, as non-poets, > people to look down on because of their occupations. > > Surely THAT is absurd. But to have the discussion, to object to Mr > Grumman's taxonomy, surely that is NOT absurd, but rather > necessary. > > mbales at cybergate.net > http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From wasanthony at yahoo.com Sun Aug 12 21:34:23 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 18:34:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] THE PECKING ORDER OF MEN . . . In-Reply-To: <010812.183918.EDT.AP201070@BROWNVM.brown.edu> Message-ID: <20010813013423.23873.qmail@web12102.mail.yahoo.com> Thanks, Henry :-) And for taking this in the proper spirit. - Jim --- Henry wrote: > THE PECKING ORDER OF MEN OF THE NILE ACCORDING TO VICE-REGENT-QUEEN- > BEE-MOTHER HATPSHEPTSHPUT, KINGDOM OF EGYPT, 6,542 BC > > 1. Pharaoh > 2. Pharaoh's First-Born > 3.-18. Pharoah's 2nd to 15th-born Son > 19. Pharaoh's Daughter > 20. Head Fan-Holder > 21. Assistant to Head Fan-Holder > 22. Fan-Holder's Assistant's Assistant > 23. Fan-Holder's Assistant's Assistant's Head Chef > 24. Busboy (Royal) > 25. Busboy (Regular) > 26. Busboy (Royal)'s Chauffeur > 27. Commander-in-Chief of the Pharoah's Army & Navy > 28. Hair Stylist to Queen Habshabmamut > 29. Stone-Mason #1 > 30. Tax Collector's Official Astrologer > 31. Hieroglyphologist to Tax Collector's Official Astrologer > (Full-Time) > 32. Head Manager of Pharaonic Bingo-Hall > 33. Honorable Laugher-In-Times-Of-Levity > 34. Associate Director of Laughter Management > 35. Important Main Silencer at Royal Occasions (sometimes supersedes > #33 > in Authority) > 36. Nile Gahbahgeman > 37. Poet/Effeminate Person for State Ceremonies > 38. Official Mocker of Poet/Effeminate Person > 39. Insurance Agent for Upper Nile Region > 40. Slave > 41. Assistant Slave > 42. Official Assistant to Assistant Slave > 43. Joe (in charge of granaries for the time being) > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ From duemer at clarkson.edu Sun Aug 12 21:59:06 2001 From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:59:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons References: <010812.183918.EDT.AP201070@BROWNVM.brown.edu> Message-ID: <015301c1239b$89346560$18724342@twcny.rr.com> <<43. Joe (in charge of granaries for the time being)>> I am no longer in charge of anything, being a mere poet (unofficial). w/ utmst rspct, jd ====================== Joseph Duemer School of Liberal Arts, 5750 Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699 315.268.3967 ====================== From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu Sun Aug 12 22:33:25 2001 From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Prentiss, Amber) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 22:33:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons Message-ID: Actually, I think that might be surpassed by the quasi-occupation of student, having seen a few messages about the young whippersnappers myself. -Amber -----Original Message----- From: Janet Holmes To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 8/12/2001 5:16 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons I admit I've been skipping over these messages really quickly, but it's been clear to me ever since I've been on this list that the occupation most looked-down-upon by New-Poetry poets is that of an employed academic teaching creative writing. (Which figures, since when I was in the corporate world, academics found it humorous that I considered myself a poet. Maybe directing software projects for a printing company wasn't as glamourous as being a lawyer or a food company's top exec? Or maybe being wealthy makes the occupation irrelevant?) Is anyone else finding this discussion absurd? Surely one of you is already writing a poem about the taxonomy of occupations ... Janet Holmes http://english.boisestate.edu/jholmes "Assistant Professor and Proud Of It" >>> new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu 08/12/01 10:01AM >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: ; Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 11:30 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons > > What I have is a hierarchy of occupations in which some rank higher > > than others with regard to value for other human beings, Marcus. I > > suspect this does not make me unique among human beings. I might add > > that there are many occupations that seem to me worse than Stevens's. > > I agree having such a hierarchy of occupations doesn't make you > unique; and in all likelihood your stated propensity for looking down > on some doesn't make you unique, either. It is, however, unusual > to find someone so willing to openly declare that being a lawyer for > an insurance company is an occupation to look down on. > > But common as it may be to have a hierarchy of occupations, it > seems to me that we ought not "look down" on people because of > their occupations. It seems to me that the notion of "look down > on" is a notion of moral judgment and that it is, thus, not a notion > that lends itself readily to such a broad-brush generalization as that > all insurance men, or all lawyers, or even all insurance lawyers, are > to be looked down on. > > > mbales at cybergate.net > http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jholmes at boisestate.edu Sun Aug 12 23:41:16 2001 From: jholmes at boisestate.edu (Janet Holmes) Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:41:16 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons Message-ID: True. On this list there's a lot of disparagement due to insecurity, so don't let it get to you. I personally am very fond of students -- some of whom can't any longer fit into the "whippersnapper" category! Janet >>> aprentiss at agnesscott.edu 08/12/01 20:31 PM >>> Actually, I think that might be surpassed by the quasi-occupation of student, having seen a few messages about the young whippersnappers myself. -Amber -----Original Message----- From: Janet Holmes To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 8/12/2001 5:16 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons I admit I've been skipping over these messages really quickly, but it's been clear to me ever since I've been on this list that the occupation most looked-down-upon by New-Poetry poets is that of an employed academic teaching creative writing. (Which figures, since when I was in the corporate world, academics found it humorous that I considered myself a poet. Maybe directing software projects for a printing company wasn't as glamourous as being a lawyer or a food company's top exec? Or maybe being wealthy makes the occupation irrelevant?) Is anyone else finding this discussion absurd? Surely one of you is already writing a poem about the taxonomy of occupations ... Janet Holmes http://english.boisestate.edu/jholmes "Assistant Professor and Proud Of It" >>> new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu 08/12/01 10:01AM >>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Marcus Bales" To: ; Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2001 11:30 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons > > What I have is a hierarchy of occupations in which some rank higher > > than others with regard to value for other human beings, Marcu. I > > suspect this does not make me unique among human beings. I might add > > that there are many occupations that seem to me worse than Stevens's. > > I agree having such a hierarchy of occupations doesn't make you > unique; and in all likelihood your stated propensity for looking down > on some doesn't make you unique, either. It is, however, unusual > to find someone so willing to openly declare that being a lawyer for > an insurance company is an occupation to look down on. > > But common as it may be to have a hierarchy of occupations, it > seems to me that we ought not "look down" on people because of > their occupations. It seems to me that the notion of "look down > on" is a notion of moral judgment and that it is, thus, not a notion > that lends itself readily to such a broad-brush generalization as that > all insurance men, or all lawyers, or even all insurance lawyers, are > to be looked down on. > > > mbales at cybergate.net > http://pub15.ezboard.com/btimely > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From AP201070 at BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU Mon Aug 13 08:00:23 2001 From: AP201070 at BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU (Henry) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 08:00:23 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons In-Reply-To: <015301c1239b$89346560$18724342@twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <010813.080304.EDT.AP201070@BROWNVM.brown.edu> Joe, I meant the other Joe, as in Joseph, son of Jacob. But I hear there's a vacancy for Chief Hod-Carrier to Astrologer #3, a highly- respected (if not especially remunerative) Position. Polish up your papyrus & send it along. - Henry, Honorary Resume Inspector to Queen Habshabmamut On Sun, 12 Aug 2001 21:59:06 -0400 Joseph Duemer said: ><<43. Joe (in charge of granaries for the time being)>> > >I am no longer in charge of anything, being a mere poet (unofficial). > >w/ utmst rspct, >jd >====================== >Joseph Duemer >School of Liberal Arts, 5750 >Clarkson University >Potsdam NY 13699 >315.268.3967 >====================== > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From duemer at clarkson.edu Mon Aug 13 08:44:23 2001 From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 08:44:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons References: <010813.080304.EDT.AP201070@BROWNVM.brown.edu> Message-ID: <003c01c123f5$afed2ac0$18724342@twcny.rr.com> <> Henry, Joseph-son-of-Jacob would be that paragon of fundamentalist rectitude (& government functionary) my mother named me after, adding as a middle name that of the gospel-writing tax-collector, thus uniting the Law with Grace & leading the new chosen people out of the Egypt of the working class & into the glories of suburbia. Hod-carrying, then, is in my background--something to fall back on when the frogs begin falling from the sky. Joe ====================== Joseph Duemer School of Liberal Arts, 5750 Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699 315.268.3967 ====================== From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Mon Aug 13 09:04:10 2001 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 09:04:10 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icons Message-ID: In a message dated 8/13/01 8:53:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, duemer at clarkson.edu writes: > Hod-carrying, then, is in my background--something > to fall back on when the frogs begin falling from the sky. > > Joe > > All say: ibid, ibid, ibid Jeffrey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From TerryP17 at aol.com Mon Aug 13 09:39:28 2001 From: TerryP17 at aol.com (TerryP17 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 09:39:28 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: King of the Wild Frontier Message-ID: Sam-- You wrote-- > Speaking of American icons and wine, we also have Davy Crockett, aka Fess > Parker, who is really creating some outstanding reds as well. Not bad for a > guy who once wore a coonskin cap. > I beg to differ. His merlot is pretty bad. But he does have a nice resort in Santa Barbara. Can't speak on the merits of the merlot. Had a decent cabernet blend with his label on it. A little hard to get the label up here. Wish I still had my coonskin cap from the 50s. --Terry Ponick From TerryP17 at aol.com Mon Aug 13 09:51:16 2001 From: TerryP17 at aol.com (TerryP17 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 09:51:16 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Marilyn Merlot Message-ID: Sam & Amber-- <> Saw Marilyn Merlot on the shelves up here, too, but don't have the nerve to try it. Don't know what other listmembers think of the stuff, but real zinfandel is actually my favorite vino. Made from a specific grape, very small and intense, it is the signature California wine in my book, although I believe at least some of its lineage can be traced to Eastern Europe. California makes some very heavy duty zins, powerful flavors and fruit, high alcohol content. I always have a few aging downstairs. But zin, if anything, got too popular in the late 70s, early 80s, and led to overplanting. When the zin boom busted, vintners were left with a huge oversupply. Someone (Gallo perhaps?) got the bright idea of taking the grape skins out early and creating "blush" wines and "white zin" (no skins at all) to sell to the younger age bracket and to wine newbies in order to dispose of the oversupply. Both were a surprising hit, saved the zin industry (if you can call it that), and is still a best seller to this day. I find the stuff lightweight, sickeningly sweet, and a travesty. The phrase, "Friends don't let friends drink white zinfandel" showed up on a T-shirt I saw someone wearing and I need to get my hands on one. Made my summer. Don't know what any of this has to do with poetry, except poets, being a spirited lot, have been known to imbibe plenty of same. --Terry Ponick From MillB at aol.com Mon Aug 13 11:11:06 2001 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 11:11:06 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: King of the Wild Frontier Message-ID: Greetings: I thought I'd add my two cents. . .cannot remember the wine. . .must not have been memorable. . .I did, however, meet Fess Parker and get him to autograph a bottle for me. . .still have it. . .unopened. His winery was nice. . .scenery. . .we had lunch there. Mill From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Mon Aug 13 11:24:35 2001 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 11:24:35 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: King of the Wild Frontier Message-ID: <99.192332fb.28a94b33@aol.com> In a message dated 8/13/01 11:11:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, MillB at aol.com writes: > Greetings: > > I thought I'd add my two cents. . .cannot remember the wine. . .must not > have > been memorable. . .I did, however, meet Fess Parker and get him to > autograph > a bottle for me. . .still have it. . .unopened. > > His winery was nice. . .scenery. . .we had lunch there. > > Mill > Though I still tend to think of myself as, well, young, when I was even younger, I had the original 45 rpm of Davey (with an *e*--I was there--Crockett. Was made to sing it for the benefit (?) of company. Sang from the bathroom where the froid was in more abundant supply. Those early (earlier) years I wasn't permitted to drink wine, of course, but had I been, surely Fess Parker's little cabernet would have been the sort I'd a hankered after. Elvis of Tupelo doubtless mighta liked it to, as surely as her Hatpsheptshputness. Jeffrey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Aug 13 23:58:51 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 23:58:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Your Next Poetry Assignment Message-ID: Here's your next assignment: At the bottom of this message is a prose poem by Elaine Equi. Your assignment is to write one or more poems using nothing but words and punctuation marks found in her text. The rules: 1. Use only words and punctuation marks found in Equi's text. 2. If a word is used five times in Equi's text, you may use it an equal number of times, but no more. Same goes for marks of punctuation. 3. You may use word variants: e.g. "talked" for "talking." 4. You may use word parts: e.g. the "king" from "talking." 5. You may not use groups of words in sequence from Equi: (i.e. not even "of the"). 6. You must follow the rules. All the rules. 7. If or when you break any of the first five rules, you must append a "confession" to the poem you've submitted. In the confession, you must explain your reason(s) for breaking the rule(s) and plead for mercy. The text: Hi-Fashion Girl I'm swinging through a department store of the future because by then it will be possible to do that. I mean hear red. Dig the brass section of this cra-zy shirt. Wait a minute. If this is the future, why am I talking like a ridiculous beatnick poet? The past must be following too close behind. Lodged by the cosmetics like a little Vietnamese girl with a grenade under her dress. I'd offer chocolate but in the department store of the future all they sell is the potential for candy. The potential to make Mom happy on her birthday the potential to look terrific. What is all this potential I keep seeing like landscape in a recurring weirdo dream? It must be the reason I ask you to style my hair, order my meals and supervise the movies I see. Yes, so I'll be ready for the next big trend after death. Glass elevators where you really do ascend into heaven but are kept around to serve champagne. Man, that is not modern. That was done in the Dark Ages. --Elaine Equi Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Tue Aug 14 04:05:24 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 01:05:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Your Next Poetry Assignment Message-ID: <20010814080524.C06892755@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From mbales at oh.verio.com Mon Aug 13 10:16:44 2001 From: mbales at oh.verio.com (mbales at oh.verio.com) Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2001 10:16:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: King of the Wild Frontier In-Reply-To: <99.192332fb.28a94b33@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B77A90C.5785.A6777B@localhost> > Though I still tend to think of myself as, well, young, when I was even > younger, I had the original 45 rpm of Davey (with an *e*--I was > there--Crockett. Was made to sing it for the benefit (?) of company. Sang > from the bathroom where the froid was in more abundant supply.<< Born on a table-top in Joe's Cafe Dirtiest place in the whole USA HIs father was a bear and his mother was a deer And poor little Davey was a bottle of beer! Davey! Davey Crockett! King of his own back yard. mbales at oh.verio.net From MillB at aol.com Tue Aug 14 10:59:52 2001 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 10:59:52 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: American Icon Assignment Message-ID: <93.e9f4480.28aa96e8@aol.com> Greetings: Thanks for all the great suggestions! Here's one of the Icon assignments that I'll be using in my Freshman Comp class this fall. I plan to use poetry as topics for free-writes. . . Cheers, Mill ****** American Icon Research Assignment In the article "The Mystery of Mickey Mouse," John Up dike writes that Mickey Mouse has become a cultural icon, reflecting American values. He quotes Walt Disney as saying, "There's a lot of the mouse in me," implying that Disney himself represented these values. Choose another icon and explore the impact on American culture and how the icon reflects American values: blue jeans, G. I. Joe, Coca-Cola, Uncle Sam-nothing is too sacred. This first part of the assignment should be approximately 7 pages, typed, doubled-spaced (about 250 words per page) and in MLA format with a Works Cited page. Research: Before you begin your research, write down everything you already know or believe about the icon and what it represents. Freewriting first will do two things: help guide your research and give you some of your own thoughts to use in the essay. Then, explore thoroughly. Make use of the data bases and microfilm in the library: Infotrac, ProQuest, Sirs, newspapers. Electric Library on the Internet is also an excellent site. Just remember that the internet can be a scary place (anyone can post anything), so make sure your sources are reliable. In the course of your research, you might find your assumptions about your icon have been exploded or confirmed. No matter what you discover, you'll be on your way to developing your thesis, or argument. Note: Be careful not to over-quote. I want to know what you think, so don't rely too heavily on sources. Draw your own conclusions. Infer. Argue. Refute quotes. Do explore different sources, and don't fall into the book trap. Use articles, interviews, films, videos, pamphlets, posters. Use at least 5 sources. Your sources don't have to relate directly to your icon. They can be sources about Americana or pop culture, psychology or sociology. Use your imagination. If the material you want to quote is too boring, rewrite it in your own voice, being sure to give a parenthetical reference. Thesis and Development: After you've done some research and drawn some conclusions, formulate your thesis. Remember, your essay is an argument. You are trying to convince the reader, not just inform. Go beyond the obvious. Look at the reality behind what the icon supposedly represents. For example, Uncle Sam represents patriotism, the protection of mom, home, and apple pie. But something more sinister lurks behind those "I want you" posters: war, death, destruction. The reality lurking behind the reality: the political and economic reasons for war. So don't be afraid to rip off the masks. Expose the icon's secrets, its sinister side. Your thesis must contain the dark aspect of the icon and at least three aspects of American culture that the icon represents. Also discuss how these aspects influence society. This paper is more about what the icon represents rather than the icon itself. Avoid history (except for brief, pertinent information) and biography. As you are probably beginning to see, this assignment is not for the I'm-a-really-lazy , throw-something-together-at-the-last-minute person. Organization: We will discuss riddles and different organizational strategies in class, but this section of the assignment is pretty straightforward argumentation/analysis. Rules: you must have a riddle introduction, define the term "icon," and explain why your icon fits the definition. Be sure to describe the icon, physically. Description can provide clues as to what the icon represents. Developmental paragraphs should consist of specific points you wish to make that support your argument. Revision: After you have done at least three drafts of your essay, it's time to fine tune. First, clean house: check for fragments, run-ons, comma splices, punctuation errors, cliches, subject/verb agreement, shifts in tense or person, and other grammatical errors. Now, decorate: Revise for wordiness. Delete unnecessary material. Explain areas that might not be clear. Other Tips: If you can't find material on your icon, ask the librarians. Ask me. Don't just flounder. Good luck. And stay tuned for more information. Sample Research Thesis Statements 1. John Wayne's class cowboy attire, worn but neat, screams American male values: power, manhood, justice. And underneath all of the God-bless-America hype, is control, insensitivity, revenge. 2. With billions of burgers sold, with restaurants being built on nearly every block and with countless foreign nations identifying American culture with Ronald McDonald, it just might be a good idea to understand exactly what impact McDonald's has had on our nation and what it reflects, what it says about the American people. In short, it says we are an excessive, indulgent group in love with everything fast and easy and who support en masse anything that is sanitized, safe, inoffensive and always the same. (many thanks to Donna Barnard who originally came up with this idea) From JforJames at aol.com Tue Aug 14 11:48:47 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 11:48:47 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Pavement Saw Press Transcontinental Award Message-ID: <90.18b1af44.28aaa25f@aol.com> David Baratier, Editor, Pavement Saw Press --------- Last year two books were published. One chosen by the judge (who won publication and monetary prize) and one by the editor (whose book was published with a royalty contract). Annual Transcontinental Poetry Award by Pavement Saw Press Each year Pavement Saw Press will seek to publish at least one book of poetry and/or prose poems from manuscripts received during this competition. Selection is made anonymously through a competition that is open to anyone who has not previously published a volume of poetry or prose. The author receives $1500 and copies. The judge of the competition is David Bromige. Previous judges have included Bin Ramke and Howard McCord. All poems must be original, all prose must be original, fiction or translations are not acceptable. Writers who have had volumes of poetry and/or prose under 40 pages printed or printed in limited editions of no more than 500 copies are eligible. Submissions are accepted during the months of June, July, and until August 15th. Entries must meet these requirements: 1. The manuscript should be at least 48 pages and no more than 64 pages in length. 2. A cover letter which includes a brief biography, the book's title, your name, address, and telephone number, your signature, and, if you have e-mail, your e-mail address. It should also include a list of acknowledgments for the book. 3. The manuscript should be bound with a single clip and begin with a title page including the book's title, your name, address, and telephone number, and, if you have e-mail, your e-mail address. Submissions to the contest are judged anonymously. 4. The second page should have only the title of the manuscript. There are to be no acknowledgments or mention of the author's name from this page forward. 5. A table of contents should follow the second title page. 6. The manuscript should be paginated, beginning with the first page of poetry. 7. There should be no more than one poem on each page. The manuscript can contain pieces that are longer than one page. Your manuscript should be accompanied by a check in the amount of $15.00 (US) made payable to Pavement Saw Press. All US contributors to the contest will receive at least one book provided a self addressed 9 by 12 envelope with $1.60 postage attached is provided. Add appropriate postage for other countries. For acknowledgment of the manuscripts arrival, please include a stamped, self-addressed postcard. For notification of results, enclose a SASE business size envelope. A decision will be reached in September. Do not send the only copy of your work. All manuscripts will be recycled, and individual comments on the manuscripts cannot be made. Manuscripts and correspondence should be sent to: Pavement Saw Press Transcontinental Award Entry P.O. Box 6291 Columbus, OH 43206 Submissions are accepted during the months of June, July, and postmarked until August 15th only. http://pavementsaw.org From Jofuhrman at excite.com Tue Aug 14 14:07:33 2001 From: Jofuhrman at excite.com (Joanna Fuhrman) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 11:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] adeena@compuserve.com Message-ID: <2528848.997812453013.JavaMail.imail@tracker.excite.com> hi adeena here's a cool comp idea best, Jo On Tue, 14 Aug 2001 10:59:52 EDT, new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote: > Greetings: > > Thanks for all the great suggestions! Here's one of the Icon assignments > that I'll be using in my Freshman Comp class this fall. I plan to use poetry > as topics for free-writes. . . > > Cheers, > > Mill > > ****** > > American Icon Research Assignment > > In the article "The Mystery of Mickey Mouse," John Up dike writes that Mickey > Mouse has become a cultural icon, reflecting American values. He quotes Walt > Disney as saying, "There's a lot of the mouse in me," implying that Disney > himself represented these values. Choose another icon and explore the impact > on American culture and how the icon reflects American values: blue jeans, G. > I. Joe, Coca-Cola, Uncle Sam-nothing is too sacred. > > This first part of the assignment should be approximately 7 pages, typed, > doubled-spaced (about 250 words per page) and in MLA format with a Works > Cited page. > > Research: Before you begin your research, write down everything you already > know or believe about the icon and what it represents. Freewriting first > will do two things: help guide your research and give you some of your own > thoughts to use in the essay. Then, explore thoroughly. Make use of the data > bases and microfilm in the library: Infotrac, ProQuest, Sirs, newspapers. > Electric Library on the Internet is also an excellent site. Just remember > that the internet can be a scary place (anyone can post anything), so make > sure your sources are reliable. In the course of your research, you might > find your assumptions about your icon have been exploded or confirmed. No > matter what you discover, you'll be on your way to developing your thesis, or > argument. > > Note: Be careful not to over-quote. I want to know what you think, so don't > rely too heavily on sources. Draw your own conclusions. Infer. Argue. > Refute quotes. Do explore different sources, and don't fall into the book > trap. Use articles, interviews, films, videos, pamphlets, posters. Use at > least 5 sources. Your sources don't have to relate directly to your icon. > They can be sources about Americana or pop culture, psychology or sociology. > Use your imagination. If the material you want to quote is too boring, > rewrite it in your own voice, being sure to give a parenthetical reference. > > Thesis and Development: After you've done some research and drawn some > conclusions, formulate your thesis. Remember, your essay is an argument. > You are trying to convince the reader, not just inform. Go beyond the > obvious. Look at the reality behind what the icon supposedly represents. > For example, Uncle Sam represents patriotism, the protection of mom, home, > and apple pie. But something more sinister lurks behind those "I want you" > posters: war, death, destruction. The reality lurking behind the reality: > the political and economic reasons for war. So don't be afraid to rip off > the masks. Expose the icon's secrets, its sinister side. Your thesis must > contain the dark aspect of the icon and at least three aspects of American > culture that the icon represents. Also discuss how these aspects influence > society. This paper is more about what the icon represents rather than the > icon itself. > > Avoid history (except for brief, pertinent information) and biography. As > you are probably beginning to see, this assignment is not for the > I'm-a-really-lazy , throw-something-together-at-the-last-minute person. > > Organization: We will discuss riddles and different organizational > strategies in class, but this section of the assignment is pretty > straightforward argumentation/analysis. Rules: you must have a riddle > introduction, define the term "icon," and explain why your icon fits the > definition. Be sure to describe the icon, physically. Description can > provide clues as to what the icon represents. Developmental paragraphs > should consist of specific points you wish to make that support your > argument. > > Revision: After you have done at least three drafts of your essay, it's time > to fine tune. First, clean house: check for fragments, run-ons, comma > splices, punctuation errors, cliches, subject/verb agreement, shifts in tense > or person, and other grammatical errors. Now, decorate: Revise for > wordiness. Delete unnecessary material. Explain areas that might not be > clear. Other Tips: If you can't find material on your icon, ask the > librarians. Ask me. Don't just flounder. Good luck. And stay tuned for > more information. > > Sample Research Thesis Statements > 1. John Wayne's class cowboy attire, worn but neat, screams American male > values: power, manhood, justice. And underneath all of the God-bless-America > hype, is control, insensitivity, revenge. > > 2. With billions of burgers sold, with restaurants being built on nearly > every block and with countless foreign nations identifying American culture > with Ronald McDonald, it just might be a good idea to understand exactly what > impact McDonald's has had on our nation and what it reflects, what it says > about the American people. In short, it says we are an excessive, indulgent > group in love with everything fast and easy and who support en masse anything > that is sanitized, safe, inoffensive and always the same. > > (many thanks to Donna Barnard who > originally came up with this idea) > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ From JforJames at aol.com Tue Aug 14 18:28:03 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 18:28:03 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Your Next Poetry Assignment Message-ID: <123.325f3a2.28aafff3@aol.com> Glass Dress, Champagne And Red Candy Grenade With all that is possible, All that potential, What reason but trend For the cosmetic modern style Of a ridiculous poet? -- > At the bottom of this message is a prose poem by Elaine Equi. > Your assignment is to write one or more poems using nothing > but words and punctuation marks found in her text. > > The rules: > > 1. Use only words and punctuation marks found in Equi's text. > 2. If a word is used five times in Equi's text, you may use it an > equal number of times, but no more. Same goes for marks > of punctuation. > 3. You may use word variants: e.g. "talked" for "talking." > 4. You may use word parts: e.g. the "king" from "talking." > 5. You may not use groups of words in sequence from Equi: > (i.e. not even "of the"). > 6. You must follow the rules. All the rules. > 7. If or when you break any of the first five rules, you must > append a "confession" to the poem you've submitted. In > the confession, you must explain your reason(s) for breaking > the rule(s) and plead for mercy. > > The text: > > Hi-Fashion Girl > > I'm swinging through a department store of the future > because by then it will be possible to do that. I mean hear > red. Dig the brass section of this cra-zy shirt. > Wait a minute. If this is the future, why am I talking > like a ridiculous beatnick poet? The past must be following > too close behind. Lodged by the cosmetics like a little > Vietnamese girl with a grenade under her dress. > I'd offer chocolate but in the department store of the > future all they sell is the potential for candy. The potential > to make Mom happy on her birthday > the potential to look terrific. > What is all this potential I keep seeing like landscape in > a recurring weirdo dream? It must be the reason I ask you to > style my hair, order my meals and supervise the movies I see. > Yes, > so I'll be ready for the next big trend after death. > Glass elevators where you really do ascend into heaven > but are kept around to serve champagne. Man, > that is not modern. That was done in the Dark Ages. > > --Elaine Equi > From JforJames at aol.com Tue Aug 14 23:19:20 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2001 23:19:20 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Slagging the Gods Message-ID: > Looking through an old book of Gilbert Sorrentino's I came across these > lines about Wallace Stevens: "His language is that of instruction booklets > on the installation of air conditioners. In his more elegantly turned > phrases, one hears the echoes of commercials . . . . I sicken of him." A friend sent me this quote. Tho I've seen some badly translated instruction manuals that tilt toward pure poetry...oh, that it were true...what a world this would be. Finnegan From GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU Wed Aug 15 15:04:21 2001 From: GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU (Graham, David) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 14:04:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Slagging the Gods Message-ID: <2BD2DCAF6140D3118A3F0008C733F25501B45924@triton.ripon.edu> One of the pleasures of growing older, I find, is the gradual erosion of any guilt I might once have felt about admitting certain things, such as the fact that Henry James quite reliably puts me to sleep. So do many of the poems of Wallace Stevens--the longer meditations, mainly, of his latter years. Give me *Harmonium* any day, or the briefer lyrics in *The Rock*. Roethke has a line in one of his journals somewhere that says (paraphrasing): "I'm depressed. I wish I liked Henry James." That's where he and I differ, I guess. I'm not depressed. . . . Anyway, how about a little WS for a slow day at NewPoetry? David Graham ______________ A Postcard from the Volcano Children picking up our bones Will never know that these were once As quick as foxes on the hill; And that in autumn, when the grapes Made sharp air sharper by their smell These had a being; breathing frost; And least will guess that with our bones We left much more, left what still is The look of things, left what we felt At what we saw. The spring clouds blow Above the shuttered mansion-house, Beyond our gate and the windy sky Cries out a literate despair. We knew for long the mansion's look And what we said of it became A part of what it is . . . Children, Still weaving budded aureoles, Will speak our speech and never know, Will say of the mansion that it seems As if he that lived there left behind A spirit storming in blank walls, A dirty house in a gutted world, A tatter of shadows peaked to white, Smeared with the gold of the opulent sun. =================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu =================== > ---------- > From: JforJames at aol.com > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2001 10:19 PM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: [New-Poetry] Slagging the Gods > > > Looking through an old book of Gilbert Sorrentino's I came across these > > lines about Wallace Stevens: "His language is that of instruction > booklets > > on the installation of air conditioners. In his more elegantly turned > > phrases, one hears the echoes of commercials . . . . I sicken of him." > > A friend sent me this quote. Tho I've seen some badly translated > instruction manuals that tilt toward pure poetry...oh, that it were > true...what a world this would be. > Finnegan > From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Aug 15 15:15:57 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 15:15:57 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Slagging the Gods Message-ID: Re. Stevens I've never understood the attraction of that late stuff for folks like Vendler. It may be interesting as ideas for critics to chew over, but most of it is pretty dull as poetry. Another vote for Harmonium and about 15% of the rest. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Wed Aug 15 16:11:14 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2001 16:11:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Your Next Poetry Assignment References: <123.325f3a2.28aafff3@aol.com> Message-ID: <000701c125e8$33e6f920$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> champagne under Mom's bra recurring potential for her but for me it's a glass grenade Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Your Next Poetry Assignment > Glass Dress, Champagne And Red Candy Grenade > > With all that is possible, > All that potential, > What reason but trend > For the cosmetic modern style > Of a ridiculous poet? > > -- > > At the bottom of this message is a prose poem by Elaine Equi. > > Your assignment is to write one or more poems using nothing > > but words and punctuation marks found in her text. > > > > The rules: > > > > 1. Use only words and punctuation marks found in Equi's text. > > 2. If a word is used five times in Equi's text, you may use it an > > equal number of times, but no more. Same goes for marks > > of punctuation. > > 3. You may use word variants: e.g. "talked" for "talking." > > 4. You may use word parts: e.g. the "king" from "talking." > > 5. You may not use groups of words in sequence from Equi: > > (i.e. not even "of the"). > > 6. You must follow the rules. All the rules. > > 7. If or when you break any of the first five rules, you must > > append a "confession" to the poem you've submitted. In > > the confession, you must explain your reason(s) for breaking > > the rule(s) and plead for mercy. > > > > The text: > > > > Hi-Fashion Girl > > > > I'm swinging through a department store of the future > > because by then it will be possible to do that. I mean hear > > red. Dig the brass section of this cra-zy shirt. > > Wait a minute. If this is the future, why am I talking > > like a ridiculous beatnick poet? The past must be following > > too close behind. Lodged by the cosmetics like a little > > Vietnamese girl with a grenade under her dress. > > I'd offer chocolate but in the department store of the > > future all they sell is the potential for candy. The potential > > to make Mom happy on her birthday > > the potential to look terrific. > > What is all this potential I keep seeing like landscape in > > a recurring weirdo dream? It must be the reason I ask you to > > style my hair, order my meals and supervise the movies I see. > > Yes, > > so I'll be ready for the next big trend after death. > > Glass elevators where you really do ascend into heaven > > but are kept around to serve champagne. Man, > > that is not modern. That was done in the Dark Ages. > > > > --Elaine Equi > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Thu Aug 16 07:56:25 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2001 04:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] On poetry and libraries... Message-ID: <20010816115625.8FC7B2758@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From gmcvay at patriot.net Fri Aug 17 03:53:44 2001 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 03:53:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Your Next Poetry Assignment References: Message-ID: <3B7CCD22.807767B0@patriot.net> Vietnamese Girl With Weirdo Depart the future, dig the ridiculous glass hair style Yes I'll be ready After death you really do serve champagne The brass shirt lodged too close behind the movies, Dark Ages cosmetics Man, like, this chocolate potential --Gwyn From alcidebava1 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 17 04:24:58 2001 From: alcidebava1 at hotmail.com (Alcide Bava) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 08:24:58 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Zinfandel Message-ID: An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Fri Aug 17 10:46:12 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 09:46:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hudgins Message-ID: Nice bit of light verse by Andrew Hudgins at Poetry Daily today. A parody of both Yeats and Gwendolyn Brooks, in the form of "We Real Cool," called "The Wild Swans Skip School." http://www.poems.com/today_lo.htm I thought that perhaps the teachers among us might get a kick out of this as fall semester looms. ("We scorn Yeats. We / have mates.") David Graham __________________ David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu __________________ From TerryP17 at aol.com Fri Aug 17 13:30:37 2001 From: TerryP17 at aol.com (TerryP17 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 13:30:37 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Last Word on Zinfandel Message-ID: <87.ed2447e.28aeaebd@aol.com> Dear "Alcide Bava": <> Well, one can never have too much info on zinfandel, but this sure comes close! Actually, thanx for the interesting post. Shows there are still a few "unsolved mysteries" concerning America's favorite wine. An interesting read! --Terry P From jholmes at boisestate.edu Fri Aug 17 19:04:52 2001 From: jholmes at boisestate.edu (Janet Holmes) Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2001 17:04:52 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Zinfandel Message-ID: Agoston Haraszthy's book about his American travels is packed with whoppers, similar to Chateubriand's. His son probably spent his lifetime learning that half the things daddy told him were'nt true... Janet, who is glad to know an albino vine exposes the falsity of "white" zinfandel From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Aug 18 11:31:33 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2001 11:31:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Paul Violi, "At the Corner of Muck and Myer" Message-ID: "At the Corner of Muck and Myer" for Jim Shepperd Green light--Go. Red light--Stop. Yellow light--Caution. Blinking Red light--Strong suspicions. Blinking Blue light--Apprehension. Yellow light with bells--Mounting fears, accusations. White light--Sweat, speechlessness, ranting isolation. Steady Violet light--Sunlit fragrant rooms, visitors, casual interrogations, short walks with attendant . . . --Paul Violi Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From grahamd at vbe.com Mon Aug 20 00:10:29 2001 From: grahamd at vbe.com (David Graham) Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2001 23:10:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Did I Miss Anything? Message-ID: <200108200411.f7K4BfI64331@mx5.mx.voyager.net> Hope I haven't posted this before, but as the fall semester looms large for the teachers among us, I can't resist quoting my current favorite classroom poem. This is by Tom Wayman, a Canadian who seems to be not that well known in the US. This is the title poem of one of his selected editions. [In case of format problems: alternate stanzas are supposed to be indented.] David Graham ___________________________ DID I MISS ANYTHING? Question frequently asked by students after missing a class Nothing. When we realized you weren't here we sat with our hands folded on our desks in silence, for the full two hours Everything. I gave an exam worth 40 per cent of the grade for this term and assigned some reading due today on which I'm about to hand out a quiz worth 50 per cent Nothing. None of the content of this course has value or meaning Take as many days off as you like: any activities we undertake as a class I assure you will not matter either to you or me and are without purpose Everything. A few minutes after we began last time a shaft of light descended and an angel or other heavenly being appeared and revealed to us what each woman or man must do to attain divine wisdom in this life and the hereafter This is the last time the class will meet before we disperse to bring this good news to all people on earth Nothing. When you are not present how could something significant occur? Everything. Contained in this classroom is a microcosm of human existence assembled for you to query and examine and ponder This is not the only place such an opportunity has been gathered but it was one place And you weren't here --Tom Wayman, from The Astonishing Weight of the Dead (Vancouver: Polestar, 1994) ________________ David Graham grahamd at vbe.com ________________ From JforJames at aol.com Mon Aug 20 09:04:58 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 09:04:58 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] North American Centre for Interdisciplinary Poetics Message-ID: <139.4a48aa.28b264fa@aol.com> Subject: new website www.poetics.yorku.ca Welcome to NACIP Housed at York University, Toronto, this de-centred Centre is conceived initially as a web-based forum for free exchange on matters pertaining to interdisciplinary creativity and making. At this point you might wish to proceed to the Director's introductory essay on Parapoetics (in the Parapoetics section of Various Poetics) for a description of the spirit of "para" in which NACIP is born. Polymorphous, democratic, but not sprawling, NACIP will grow as its active constituency grows. Starting with five initial topics: Cognitive poetics, Architectural poetics, Ethnopoetics, Cyberpoetics and Parapoetics, new ones will be added as the relevant material accrues. New articles will regularly be posted under each topic, but the commentary, response, and dialogue will be ongoing and fashioned as it will, unmonitored. From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu Mon Aug 20 15:00:15 2001 From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Prentiss, Amber) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 15:00:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Monster Poems? Message-ID: I'm looking for poems about monsters real (boa constrictor) and otherwise (Loch Ness Monster), and I'm not using the term loosely. Under-the-bed-grab-your-foot-and-chew-it-off monsters! Shipwrecking beasts! (Or steal your shoes and your only pair of scissors gremlins.) I don't know why. So if you know of any good ones, please help! -Amber From GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU Mon Aug 20 15:06:38 2001 From: GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU (Graham, David) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 14:06:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Monster Poems? Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDE84@ARIEL> Well, there's always that fearsome ancient monster, the Thesaurus: THESAURUS It could be the name of a prehistoric beast that roamed the Paleozoic earth, rising up on its hind legs to show off its large vocabulary, or some lover in a myth who is metamorphosed into a book. It means treasury, but it is just a place where words congregate with their relatives, a big park where hundreds of family reunions are always being held, house, home, dwelling, lodgings, and digs all sharing the same picnic basket and thermos; hairy, hirsute, woolly, furry, and shaggy all running sack race or throwing horseshoes, inert, static, motionless, fixed, and immobile standing and kneeling in rows for a group photograph. Here father is next to sire and brother close to sibling, separated only by fine shades of meaning. And every group has its odd cousin, the one who traveled the farthest to be here: astereognosis, polydipsia, or some eleven syllable, unpronounceable substitute for the word tool. Even their own relatives have to squint at their name tags. I can see my own copy up on a high shelf. I rarely open it, because I know there is no such thing as a synonym and because I get nervous around people who always assemble with their own kind, forming clubs and nailing signs to closed front doors while others huddle alone in the dark streets. I would rather see words out on their own, away from their families and the warehouse of Roget, wandering the world where they sometimes fall in love with a completely different word. Surely, you have seen pairs of them standing forever next to each other on the same line inside a poem, a small chapel where weddings like these, between perfect strangers, can take place. -Billy Collins The Art Of Drowning =================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu =================== > ---------- > From: Prentiss, Amber > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Monday, August 20, 2001 2:00 PM > To: 'new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu' > Subject: [New-Poetry] Monster Poems? > > I'm looking for poems about monsters real (boa constrictor) and otherwise > (Loch Ness Monster), and I'm not using the term loosely. > Under-the-bed-grab-your-foot-and-chew-it-off monsters! Shipwrecking > beasts! > (Or steal your shoes and your only pair of scissors gremlins.) I don't > know > why. So if you know of any good ones, please help! > > -Amber > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From MillB at aol.com Mon Aug 20 15:54:45 2001 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 15:54:45 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Monster Poems? Message-ID: Amber: In the Richard Peck children's poetry anthology, there's a found poem about how to make a monster (taken from toy instructions)--If I can locate it, I'll type it up for you. . .Edward Fields has a few poems about Frankenstein, etc. . . Mill From fmm1 at cornell.edu Mon Aug 20 16:38:40 2001 From: fmm1 at cornell.edu (fmm1 at cornell.edu) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:38:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Monster Poems? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There's Wilbur's classic vampire poem, "The Undead," and Lawrence Raab has a number of poems about monsters, including "Attack of the Crab Monsters" in _The Collector of Cold Weather_. - Fred Muratori On Mon, 20 Aug 2001, Prentiss, Amber wrote: > I'm looking for poems about monsters real (boa constrictor) and otherwise > (Loch Ness Monster), and I'm not using the term loosely. > Under-the-bed-grab-your-foot-and-chew-it-off monsters! Shipwrecking beasts! > (Or steal your shoes and your only pair of scissors gremlins.) I don't know > why. So if you know of any good ones, please help! > > -Amber > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From MillB at aol.com Mon Aug 20 16:50:50 2001 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:50:50 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Monster Poems? Message-ID: Amber: Here are a few--by Edward Field Cheers, Mill Three Frankenstein Poems -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Frankenstein The monster has escaped from the dungeon where he was kept by the Baron, who made him with knobs sticking out from each side of his neck where the head was attached to the body and stitching all over where parts of cadavers were sewed together. He is pursued by the ignorant villagers, who think he is evil and dangerous because he is ugly and makes ugly noises. They wave firebrands at him and cudgels and rakes, but he escapes and comes to the thatched cottage of an old blind man playing on the violin Mendelssohn's "Spring Song." Hearing him approach, the blind man welcomes him: "Come in, my friend," and takes him by the arm. "You must be weary," and sits him down inside the house. For the blind man has long dreamed of having a friend to share his lonely life. The monster has never known kindness ‹ the Baron was cruel -- but somehow he is able to accept it now, and he really has no instincts to harm the old man, for in spite of his awful looks he has a tender heart: Who knows what cadaver that part of him came from? The old man seats him at table, offers him bread, and says, "Eat, my friend." The monster rears back roaring in terror. "No, my friend, it is good. Eat -- gooood" and the old man shows him how to eat, and reassured, the monster eats and says, "Eat -- gooood," trying out the words and finding them good too. The old man offers him a glass of wine, "Drink, my friend. Drink -- gooood." The monster drinks, slurping horribly, and says, "Drink -- gooood," in his deep nutty voice and smiles maybe for the first time in his life. Then the blind man puts a cigar in the monster's mouth and lights a large wooden match that flares up in his face. The monster, remembering the torches of the villagers, recoils, grunting in terror. "No, my friend, smoke -- gooood," and the old man demonstrates with his own cigar. The monster takes a tentative puff and smiles hugely, saying, "Smoke -- gooood," and sits back like a banker, grunting and puffing. Now the old man plays Mendelssohn's "Spring Song" on the violin while tears come into our dear monster s eyes as he thinks of the stones of the mob the pleasures of meal-time, the magic new words he has learned and above all of the friend he has found. It is just as well that he is unaware -- being simple enough to believe only in the present -- that the mob will find him and pursue him for the rest of his short unnatural life, until trapped at the whirlpool's edge he plunges to his death. The Bride of Frankenstein The Baron has decided to mate the monster, to breed him perhaps, in the interests of pure science, his only god. So he goes up into his laboratory which he has built in the tower of the castle to be as near the interplanetary forces as possible, and puts together the prettiest monster-woman you ever saw with a body like a pin-up girl and hardly any stitching at all where he sewed on the head of a raped and murdered beauty queen. He sets his liquids burping, and coils blinking and buzzing, and waits for an electric storm to send through the equipment the spark vital for life. The storm breaks over the castle and the equipment really goes crazy like a kitchen full of modern appliances as the lightning juice starts oozing right into that pretty corpse. He goes to get the monster so he will be right there when she opens her eyes, for she might fall in love with the first thing she sees as ducklings do. That monster is already straining at his chains and slurping, ready to go right to it: He has been well prepared for coupling by his pinching leering keeper who's been saying for weeks, "Ya gonna get a little nookie, kid," or "How do you go for some poontang, baby?" All the evil in him is focused on this one thing now as he is led into her very presence. She awakens slowly, she bats her eyes, she gets up out of the equipment, and finally she stands in all her seamed glory, a monster princess with a hairdo like a fright wig, lightning flashing in the background like a halo and a wedding veil, like a photographer snapping pictures of great moments. She stands and stares with her electric eyes, beginning to understand that in this life too she was just another body to be raped. The monster is ready to go: He roars with joy at the sight of her, so they let him loose and he goes right for those knockers. And she starts screaming to break your heart and you realize that she was just born: In spite of her big tits she was just a baby. But her instincts are right -- rather death than that green slobber: She jumps off the parapet. And then the monster's sex drive goes wild. Thwarted, it turns to violence, demonstrating sublimation crudely; and he wrecks the lab, those burping acids and buzzing coils, overturning the control panel so the equipment goes off like a bomb, and the stone castle crumbles and crashes in the storm destroying them all . . . perhaps. Perhaps somehow the Baron got out of that wreckage of his dreams with his evil intact, if not his good looks, and more wicked than ever went on with his thrilling career. And perhaps even the monster lived to roam the earth, his desire still ungratified; and lovers out walking in shadowy and deserted places will see his shape loom up over them, their doom -- and children sleeping in their beds will wake up in the dark night screaming as his hideous body grabs them. The Return of Frankenstein He didn't die in the whirlpool by the mill where he had fallen in after a wild chase by all the people of the town. Somehow he clung to an overhanging rock until the villagers went away. And when he came out, he was changed forever, that soft heart of his had hardened and he really was a monster now. He was out to pay them back, to throw the lie of brotherly love in their white Christian teeth. Wasn't his flesh human flesh even made from the bodies of criminals, the worst the Baron could find? But love is not necessarily implicit in human flesh: Their hatred was now his hatred, so he set out on his new career his previous one being the victim, the good man who suffers. Now no longer the hunted but the hunter he was in charge of his destiny and knew how to be cold and clever, preserving barely a spark of memory for the old blind musician who once took him in and offered brotherhood. His idea -- if his career now had an idea -- was to kill them all, keep them in terror anyway, let them feel hunted. Then perhaps they would look at others with a little pity and love. Only a suffering people have any virtue. Unwanted The poster with my picture on it Is hanging on the bulletin board in the Post Office. I stand by it hoping to be recognized Posing first full face and then profile But everybody passes by and I have to admit The photograph was taken some years ago. I was unwanted then and I'm unwanted now Ah guess ah'll go up echo mountain and crah. I wish someone would find my fingerprints somewhere Maybe on a corpse and say, You're it. Description: Male, or reasonably so White, but not lily-white and usually deep-red Thirty-fivish, and looks it lately Five-feet-nine and one-hundred-thirty pounds: no physique Black hair going gray, hairline receding fast What used to be curly, now fuzzy Brown eyes starey under beetling brow Mole on chin, probably will become a wen It is perfectly obvious that he was not popular at school No good at baseball, and wet his bed. His aliases tell his history: Dumbell, Good-for-nothing, Jewboy, Fieldinsky, Skinny, Fierce Face, Greaseball, Sissy. Warning: This man is not dangerous, answers to any name Responds to love, don't call him or he will come. From msnider at mindspring.com Mon Aug 20 17:11:11 2001 From: msnider at mindspring.com (Michael Snider) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 17:11:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Monster Poems? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200108202114.RAA22072@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Now We Are Sick: An Anthology of Nasty Verse, edited by Neil Gaiman and Stephen Jones, is a collection of sf, fantasy, and horror verse with lots of monsters. Titles like "Something Came Out of the Toilet," "You're Deceased, Father William," "Mummy's Blocked the Lav Again," "A Slice of Life," and Kim Newman's "You Always Eat the One You Love," which is short enough to type out here: You always eat the one you love, The one you shouldn't munch at all, You always take the sweetest rose, And chew it till the petals fall, You always gulp the kindest heart, For that tasty snack you can't recall, So if I ate your heart last night, That's because I love you most of all... Of course there's Beowulf, "Christabel," big chunks of "The Faerie Queen," and "Lamia." I'd be surprised if there aren't monsters somewhere in Swinburne, though I can't think of any. There's lots in Robert Graves: some good ghost poems, "The Troll's Nosegay, " and "The Window Sill," which ends Then a wild sobbing spread from door to door, And every floor Cried shame on every floor, As she unlaced her bosom to disclose Each breast a rose, A white and cankered rose. Here's all of his "The Sweet-Shop Round the Corner," which may not have a real monster, but is certainly a frightening poem: The child dreaming along a crowded street Lost hold of his mother, who had turnde to greet Some neighbour, and mistakenly matched his tread With a strange woman's. 'Buy me sweets,' he said, Waving his hand, which he found warmly pressed; So dragged her on, boisterous and self-possessed: 'The sweet-shop's around the corner!' Both went in, And not for a long while did the child begin To feel a dread that something had gone wrong:: Were Mother's legs so lean, or her shoes so long, Or her skirt so patched, or her hair tousled and grey? Why did she twitter in such a ghostly way? 'O Mother, are you dead?' What else could a child say? Here's a sonnet of mine, which has some problems in the second quatrain: Succubus One day the door opens. "Hello, dear," She says, as though you loved her. You suppose That's right -- but what's her name? "I need a beer -- You want one?" She pecks your cheek and goes Into the kitchen, leaving you to think How kind she is. She comes back naked. "Don't Just sit there. Take your beer and take a drink And take your clothes off. Then take me. I won't Bite at first." And isn't she your wife? You watch the ring she's wearing on the hand She reaches out to pull you from your life And take you to her dark, unending land -- Where you, your mind and flesh, are her delight, Where nothing matters but her appetite. On Monday, August 20, 2001, at 03:00 PM, Prentiss, Amber wrote: > I'm looking for poems about monsters real (boa constrictor) and > otherwise > (Loch Ness Monster), and I'm not using the term loosely. > Under-the-bed-grab-your-foot-and-chew-it-off monsters! Shipwrecking > beasts! > (Or steal your shoes and your only pair of scissors gremlins.) I don't > know > why. So if you know of any good ones, please help! > > -Amber > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From wasanthony at yahoo.com Mon Aug 20 19:36:54 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:36:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] North American Centre for Interdisciplinary Poetics In-Reply-To: <139.4a48aa.28b264fa@aol.com> Message-ID: <20010820233654.35797.qmail@web12101.mail.yahoo.com> Cool site. It'll join the ranks on the links page at poetserv.com Thanks, Finnegan. - Jim --- JforJames at aol.com wrote: > Subject: new website > > www.poetics.yorku.ca > > Welcome to NACIP > > Housed at York University, Toronto, this de-centred Centre is > conceived > initially as a web-based forum for free exchange on matters > pertaining to > interdisciplinary creativity and making. At this point you might wish > to > proceed to the Director's introductory essay on Parapoetics (in the > Parapoetics section of Various Poetics) for a description of the > spirit of > "para" in which NACIP is born. Polymorphous, democratic, but not > sprawling, > NACIP will grow as its active constituency grows. Starting with five > initial > topics: Cognitive poetics, Architectural poetics, Ethnopoetics, > Cyberpoetics > and Parapoetics, new ones will be added as the relevant material > accrues. New > articles will regularly be posted under each topic, but the > commentary, > response, and dialogue will be ongoing and fashioned as it will, > unmonitored. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Aug 20 22:44:41 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 22:44:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Monster Poems? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Amber-- Here's an old (and I mean ancient) one of mine: Projections, 23 the thing was white, it had white eyes, white claws, white hairy armpits the sky & ground were winter white as the thing crept toward him over the snow slowly, flashing the whitest of teeth, whistling whitely under its breath Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson > I'm looking for poems about monsters real (boa constrictor) and otherwise > (Loch Ness Monster), and I'm not using the term loosely. > Under-the-bed-grab-your-foot-and-chew-it-off monsters! Shipwrecking beasts! > (Or steal your shoes and your only pair of scissors gremlins.) I don't know > why. So if you know of any good ones, please help! > > -Amber > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From grahamd at vbe.com Mon Aug 20 22:56:13 2001 From: grahamd at vbe.com (David Graham) Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2001 21:56:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Monster Poems? Message-ID: <200108210256.f7L2uQZ45468@mx16.mx.voyager.net> Sorry to be such a William Trowbridge booster hereabouts, but someone's got to do it. Let's not forget his ongoing series of King Kong poems. For instance: KONG VIEWS AN EXPERIMENTAL ART FILM AT THE CITY LIBRARY by William Trowbridge I sat behind the man in the motorcycle pants and the woman with hair like a shocked sombrero. All of us would be blown away in the vast concussion of Tony's art, which was good. So said the leader, a tube-shaped woman who made hand washing motions while recounting Tony's terrible struggle to get where he was, which was by the cheese plate, and apologized about the projector's having too little power for such a large piece of art, though somehow adjustments were made. And so commenced a mighty flickering. "FEED ME!" screamed an angry severed head (Tony's). "CLOTHE ME!" "There is still PREJUDICE!" Much activity followed this: a person stood there, another looked aside, another scratched his foot (all Tony, but with different earrings each time). Then window curtains parted to reveal an atomic bomb, Rudy Vallee, and the last five minutes of someone else's art, entitled Easy Rider. After the applause, the lights came on, and Tony himself stood to tell us what to think, though he didn't think anyone could say anything about what his pictures meant. "Like meaning," he said, "always means like the same thing anyway: Bourgeois Capitalism and Phallocentricity," which I'm almost sure was that Belgian dance act I followed at the Roxy. Finally the man in the pants asked Tony if he didn't think that the treatment of artists was like the Holocaust and where did he buy his boots, to which Tony replied that questions about art were fascist and Gucci's basement. Before leaving, I tried to drink some carrot juice out of the little plastic cup. from *O Paradise*, 1995 U of Arkansas Press ________________ David Graham grahamd at vbe.com ________________ ---------- >From: "Prentiss, Amber" >To: "'new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu'" >Subject: [New-Poetry] Monster Poems? >Date: Mon, Aug 20, 2001, 2:00 PM > >I'm looking for poems about monsters real (boa constrictor) and otherwise >(Loch Ness Monster), and I'm not using the term loosely. >Under-the-bed-grab-your-foot-and-chew-it-off monsters! Shipwrecking beasts! >(Or steal your shoes and your only pair of scissors gremlins.) I don't know >why. So if you know of any good ones, please help! > >-Amber >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From jdavis at panix.com Tue Aug 21 09:20:19 2001 From: jdavis at panix.com (Jordan Davis) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 09:20:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Monster Poems? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Amber - Forgive the apparent self-promotion, but I've been a little greedy for monsters the past couple years. There are "context monsters" in my poem "Yeah, No", and the 23rd poem in my alphabet series (tha's "W") is an essay on monsters; both poems are in the book Yeah, No (available at www.spdbooks.org). Jordan From JforJames at aol.com Tue Aug 21 10:54:37 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 10:54:37 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Love & Ink like Oil & Water? Message-ID: <13d.1b5634.28b3d02d@aol.com> This article from The Chronicle of Higher Education (http://chronicle.com) was posted recently on WomPo... From the issue dated August 17, 2001 A Letter to My Students By MICHAEL BLUMENTHAL My dear young friends: As I prepare to depart your august institution, I am aware that I will hardly be leaving a mournful group of tear-struck students in my wake. On the contrary, many of you will be glad to see me go. For, I well realize, many of the expectations engendered, and nurtured, by your previous instructors in what we call -- at times euphemistically -- "creative writing" have been disappointed, if not downright dashed, by my presence among you over the past 10 weeks. Several weeks before the end of this quarter, I was struck by a certain "Love Letter and Thank You Note" addressed to you and my other temporary colleagues by one of the younger, departing professors of creative writing -- a warm and seemingly charming person -- in which she declared her devotion to what she described as "student-centered, relationship-based teaching," and attributed her own, self-described success (which I have come to equate, simply, with popularity) to the fact that she "love(s) my students." She "started loving my students," she went on, "because I saw such inspiring, fragile, invincible, vulnerable beauty in them." She saw, our young poet did, "the same kind of beauty in them I see in the just-about-to-fall spring petals on the trees ..." Not satisfied with providing her own encomiums to her capacities as a teacher, our young colleague -- whom many of you had as a teacher -- also furnished testimony from one of her students' mothers, who, after having sat in on her class and observed what was no doubt the unabashed praise of her offspring's work, said to our erstwhile young professor, "I wish the media would cover stories like this [class] -- we'd all feel a lot more hope about our future in this country." This being California, our young, about-to-go-on-to-greener-pastures professor couldn't, of course, simply content herself with an outsider's praise. "When people feel loved, nourished, supported and respected; when people feel recognized, seen, and known; when people feel unique and valued," she went on, "they feel confident enough to explore their gifts, to develop those gifts, and to make significant contributions to the human community." To which I can only add: Amen. In her defense, my younger colleague is probably a victim of what a friend of mine contends (and I wholeheartedly agree) has become, increasingly, the purpose of university life itself: the presentation of moments of self-gratification, little assurances and narcissistic stabilizers that confirm: Yes, I am smart, I am creative, I am loved. Personally, however, I prefer Goethe's approach -- of which you will come, in time, like it or not, to see the wisdom: "If I love you," the great bard wisely asked, "what business is that of yours?" And now, my young friends, at the risk of both dashing one of your dear mother's hopes, and relieving any of you who may be experiencing a certain sadness at my departure, let me make a terrible confession: I do not love you. While I have come to like several of you quite a bit, admire some others, feel sympathy for some, and a cool distance toward others, I must confess that for none of you have I developed that rare, precious, and deeply human feeling I would describe as love. Nor, let me assure you, am I someone incapable of feeling that emotion we call love. I love my son and my close friends. I have loved both my wives in different ways, and several lovers before and between them. But I was not brought here -- your former professor's mushy rhetoric notwithstanding -- to love you, but, rather, to teach you, as I hope I have, something about the beauties, challenges, hardships, joys, and dignity of making, and reading, poems. I was brought here not to be an oracle of love, but because presumably I knew a bit more about being a writer than you do; so that, with some luck and application on all our parts, we might together learn something about that difficult and demanding vocation. Several years ago, a friend of mine, a long-tenured professor of creative writing, warned me -- in a gesture both well-meaning and sincere -- not to "shit in your own backyard," an act for which my ancestors, the Germans, have a much more poignant, and efficient, term: Nestbeschmutzer -- someone who dirties his own nest, a term popular among the Nazis as well. But thanks in no small part to colleagues like the one who has showered you with her love and testimonials to "the endless possibilities of the human spirit," I have long ago ceased to think of the world of creative writing and its instructors as my "nest" (much as I would like to hope that I have a home of sorts in the world of literature), nor have I continued, except for occasional forays such as this one, to inhabit that backyard. So I can afford, as I am doing now, to take liberties, preferring to cite a line from one of my own generation's better poets, Bob Dylan: "When you got nothin', you got nothin' to lose." On our first day of class this quarter, I told you that, insofar as I was concerned, there were three possible things to be gained from a class in creative writing: the ability to become better, more discriminating readers; a greater capacity for truth-telling and, with it, the acceptance of hard truths from others; and a greater respect for the difficulty of writing itself. If I have done my job, whether you have come to "love" me or not, you may have learned something about all three, and I can leave here a satisfied, if not universally beloved, teacher. Which leads me to yet another confession you may, or may not, want to hear: I do not need your love. (And is there, I wonder, a more abused, and misused, word in all of the English language than "love"?) For I am, in that sense, a lucky man: I already have the love of most, if not all, of those whose love I need. What I need from you, or at least would prefer, is something more befitting our student-teacher relationship: your respect. And respect -- let me assure you, from the lofty vantage point of middle age -- is something both more enduring, and more necessary of being earned, than are the vagaries and vicissitudes of what we so often mistakenly call "love." Nonetheless, I am well aware that you are under the impression that you have been "nurtured" and "loved" by certain teachers who have been far more popular with you than I have been. But let me let you in on yet another little trade secret: You have been neither loved nor nurtured. You have, rather, been lied to and betrayed. Though the mother's milk that flows from such breasts may temporarily satisfy your ravenous appetites for praise (and its donors' hunger for tenure), it is not, I assure you, a very nourishing brew. You have been told that the not good is good, that the unworthy is the worthy. Rather than being commended on the hard work and noble intentions of your ambition (when it was worth commending), you have been praised for the beauty and rightness of its product (for poetry, as the poet Howard Nemerov once put it, is "getting something right in language"). And, perhaps worst of all, to paraphrase Auden, rather than being respected for wanting to learn how to play an instrument, you have been virtually handed a seat in the orchestra, endowed with a feeling of professionalism without either the hard work or genuine apprenticeship that normally precedes it. This, today, is what passes for "nurturing"; once upon a time, it went by another name: deceit. But to give you such unearned praise -- as a friend of mine, a long-tenured professor who has taught at Johns Hopkins, Stanford, and the University of Chicago, recently reminded me -- "is not only to give [you] nothing at all, it's to deprive [you] of the one thing we have to hold onto: real work and an objective correlative." Nor has anyone, I suspect, bothered to acquaint you with the dark subtext that underlies all this nurturing and lying and love: That dishonesty -- for a writer even more than for most "ordinary" people -- is an acquired, and contagious, habit. That if you are lied to by your teachers and encouraged to lie to one another and, ultimately, to lie to yourself, the habit of lying will ultimately permeate both your soul and your work, and you will be incapable -- even if you are otherwise graced with the gifts of language, subject, time, and peace of mind -- of uttering in your work that most difficult, and necessary, of truths: the truth, as Matthew Arnold put it, "of what we feel indeed." And so, my young friends, I leave you with perhaps not the most stellar student evaluations, but also with the luxury of not needing them, seeing as how the department of which I aspire to be a tenured member has no office here, nor at any other university. And if, some day, as has happened to me on numerous occasions in the past, I should receive a letter from some -- or at least one -- of you, saying, "Although I didn't particularly like you at the time, or feel sufficiently praised by you, I realize now that I learned something about poetry, and about the struggles and exhilarations of being a writer, from being in your class," it will feel as good to me as being praised by one of your mothers, or covered by the media. It will even -- let me assure you -- feel better than being loved. Respectfully yours, Michael Blumenthal Michael Blumenthal, a poet, novelist, essayist, and translator, was a visiting writer at Santa Clara University last spring. This fall he will be a visiting professor of American literature at the University Jean Monnet Saint-Etienne and a visiting professor of creative nonfiction at the American University of Paris. His memoir, All My Mothers and Fathers, will be published by Harper Collins next March. From Waldrop at LIBRARY.Vanderbilt.edu Tue Aug 21 13:31:42 2001 From: Waldrop at LIBRARY.Vanderbilt.edu (Christopher Waldrop) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 12:31:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Monster Poems? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3B8254AE.4413.1A00D114@localhost> Hi Amber, I'm normally a lurker on the list (would that make me a monster of sorts?) but couldn't turn down this request. So here are a few from a particular region: Nessie the Mannerless Monster is a poem/children's book about Nessie of Loch Nessby Ted Hughes W.N. Herbert has another Loch Ness poem called "Song of the Terrible Lizard" from his book Cabaret McGonagall Edwin Morgan has yet another Loch Ness poem called "The Loch Ness Monster's Song" Ellen Bryant Voigt has a poem that mentions the Loch Ness Monster called "A Marriage Poem" There's just a few, but I hope that helps. On 20 Aug 2001, at 15:00, Prentiss, Amber wrote: > I'm looking for poems about monsters real (boa constrictor) and otherwise > (Loch Ness Monster), and I'm not using the term loosely. > Under-the-bed-grab-your-foot-and-chew-it-off monsters! Shipwrecking beasts! > (Or steal your shoes and your only pair of scissors gremlins.) I don't know > why. So if you know of any good ones, please help! > > -Amber > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Christopher Waldrop Serials Coordinator Vanderbilt University Library Order Services Department Tel: 615-343-3831 Fax: 615-343-8834 From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Tue Aug 21 02:35:35 2001 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 01:35:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Love & Ink Message-ID: My first teaching gig--as an adjunct lecturer--was at Santa Clara University. The undergraduates there, as I remember, were mostly from upper middle class families (I was sometimes invited to their Lake Tahoe summer homes, but declined) and about half of the class graduated in the top two or three of their high school graduating classes. But their freshman compositions were utterly unimpressive, often riddled with mechanical errors. They thought they were better students than they actually were. I had some pretty good--and one very good--creative writing students there. So I know the ambiance Blumenthal speaks of pretty well. Still, I wonder, isn't his published "letter" to the Chronicle just as much an unnecessary exercise in self-congratulation (with an aftertaste of sour grapes) as the instructor he derided for "loving" her students in such a fulsome way? Paul Lake From msnider at mindspring.com Tue Aug 21 14:06:14 2001 From: msnider at mindspring.com (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 14:06:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Love & Ink In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200108211809.OAA24700@tisch.mail.mindspring.net> Seems that way to me. On Tuesday, August 21, 2001, at 02:35 AM, Paul Lake wrote: > Still, I wonder, isn't his published "letter" to the Chronicle just as > much > an unnecessary exercise in self-congratulation (with an aftertaste of > sour > grapes) as the instructor he derided for "loving" her students in such a > fulsome way? From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu Tue Aug 21 15:12:32 2001 From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Prentiss, Amber) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 15:12:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Love & Ink like Oil & Water? Message-ID: What's a hard truth? 'This is a piece of shit my dog wouldn't even sniff' or 'this isn't strong enough; you can and have done better?' Because if it's the former, then the writer is basically trying to justify his being a pompous ass, but if it's the latter or a close approximation, then his students are touchy. People from the age of three to almost dead have abused the interests of the truth to justify their delivery of it. An aerobics instructor who says to his student, 'Hey, you're fat, stop eating so much,' is not likely to get his pupil to change eating habits. 'This is the worst piece of writing to come across my desk yet' is more likely to prompt loathing of the teacher rather than serious self-evaluation of writing. Also, it's hard to respect a teacher whose comments to his students are buried in the Chronicle of Higher Education instead of the campus newspaper. -Amber -----Original Message----- From: JforJames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 8/21/2001 10:54 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Love & Ink like Oil & Water? This article from The Chronicle of Higher Education (http://chronicle.com) was posted recently on WomPo... From the issue dated August 17, 2001 A Letter to My Students By MICHAEL BLUMENTHAL My dear young friends: As I prepare to depart your august institution, I am aware that I will hardly be leaving a mournful group of tear-struck students in my wake. On the contrary, many of you will be glad to see me go. For, I well realize, many of the expectations engendered, and nurtured, by your previous instructors in what we call -- at times euphemistically -- "creative writing" have been disappointed, if not downright dashed, by my presence among you over the past 10 weeks. Several weeks before the end of this quarter, I was struck by a certain "Love Letter and Thank You Note" addressed to you and my other temporary colleagues by one of the younger, departing professors of creative writing -- a warm and seemingly charming person -- in which she declared her devotion to what she described as "student-centered, relationship-based teaching," and attributed her own, self-described success (which I have come to equate, simply, with popularity) to the fact that she "love(s) my students." She "started loving my students," she went on, "because I saw such inspiring, fragile, invincible, vulnerable beauty in them." She saw, our young poet did, "the same kind of beauty in them I see in the just-about-to-fall spring petals on the trees ..." Not satisfied with providing her own encomiums to her capacities as a teacher, our young colleague -- whom many of you had as a teacher -- also furnished testimony from one of her students' mothers, who, after having sat in on her class and observed what was no doubt the unabashed praise of her offspring's work, said to our erstwhile young professor, "I wish the media would cover stories like this [class] -- we'd all feel a lot more hope about our future in this country." This being California, our young, about-to-go-on-to-greener-pastures professor couldn't, of course, simply content herself with an outsider's praise. "When people feel loved, nourished, supported and respected; when people feel recognized, seen, and known; when people feel unique and valued," she went on, "they feel confident enough to explore their gifts, to develop those gifts, and to make significant contributions to the human community." To which I can only add: Amen. In her defense, my younger colleague is probably a victim of what a friend of mine contends (and I wholeheartedly agree) has become, increasingly, the purpose of university life itself: the presentation of moments of self-gratification, little assurances and narcissistic stabilizers that confirm: Yes, I am smart, I am creative, I am loved. Personally, however, I prefer Goethe's approach -- of which you will come, in time, like it or not, to see the wisdom: "If I love you," the great bard wisely asked, "what business is that of yours?" And now, my young friends, at the risk of both dashing one of your dear mother's hopes, and relieving any of you who may be experiencing a certain sadness at my departure, let me make a terrible confession: I do not love you. While I have come to like several of you quite a bit, admire some others, feel sympathy for some, and a cool distance toward others, I must confess that for none of you have I developed that rare, precious, and deeply human feeling I would describe as love. Nor, let me assure you, am I someone incapable of feeling that emotion we call love. I love my son and my close friends. I have loved both my wives in different ways, and several lovers before and between them. But I was not brought here -- your former professor's mushy rhetoric notwithstanding -- to love you, but, rather, to teach you, as I hope I have, something about the beauties, challenges, hardships, joys, and dignity of making, and reading, poems. I was brought here not to be an oracle of love, but because presumably I knew a bit more about being a writer than you do; so that, with some luck and application on all our parts, we might together learn something about that difficult and demanding vocation. Several years ago, a friend of mine, a long-tenured professor of creative writing, warned me -- in a gesture both well-meaning and sincere -- not to "shit in your own backyard," an act for which my ancestors, the Germans, have a much more poignant, and efficient, term: Nestbeschmutzer -- someone who dirties his own nest, a term popular among the Nazis as well. But thanks in no small part to colleagues like the one who has showered you with her love and testimonials to "the endless possibilities of the human spirit," I have long ago ceased to think of the world of creative writing and its instructors as my "nest" (much as I would like to hope that I have a home of sorts in the world of literature), nor have I continued, except for occasional forays such as this one, to inhabit that backyard. So I can afford, as I am doing now, to take liberties, preferring to cite a line from one of my own generation's better poets, Bob Dylan: "When you got nothin', you got nothin' to lose." On our first day of class this quarter, I told you that, insofar as I was concerned, there were three possible things to be gained from a class in creative writing: the ability to become better, more discriminating readers; a greater capacity for truth-telling and, with it, the acceptance of hard truths from others; and a greater respect for the difficulty of writing itself. If I have done my job, whether you have come to "love" me or not, you may have learned something about all three, and I can leave here a satisfied, if not universally beloved, teacher. Which leads me to yet another confession you may, or may not, want to hear: I do not need your love. (And is there, I wonder, a more abused, and misused, word in all of the English language than "love"?) For I am, in that sense, a lucky man: I already have the love of most, if not all, of those whose love I need. What I need from you, or at least would prefer, is something more befitting our student-teacher relationship: your respect. And respect -- let me assure you, from the lofty vantage point of middle age -- is something both more enduring, and more necessary of being earned, than are the vagaries and vicissitudes of what we so often mistakenly call "love." Nonetheless, I am well aware that you are under the impression that you have been "nurtured" and "loved" by certain teachers who have been far more popular with you than I have been. But let me let you in on yet another little trade secret: You have been neither loved nor nurtured. You have, rather, been lied to and betrayed. Though the mother's milk that flows from such breasts may temporarily satisfy your ravenous appetites for praise (and its donors' hunger for tenure), it is not, I assure you, a very nourishing brew. You have been told that the not good is good, that the unworthy is the worthy. Rather than being commended on the hard work and noble intentions of your ambition (when it was worth commending), you have been praised for the beauty and rightness of its product (for poetry, as the poet Howard Nemerov once put it, is "getting something right in language"). And, perhaps worst of all, to paraphrase Auden, rather than being respected for wanting to learn how to play an instrument, you have been virtually handed a seat in the orchestra, endowed with a feeling of professionalism without either the hard work or genuine apprenticeship that normally precedes it. This, today, is what passes for "nurturing"; once upon a time, it went by another name: deceit. But to give you such unearned praise -- as a friend of mine, a long-tenured professor who has taught at Johns Hopkins, Stanford, and the University of Chicago, recently reminded me -- "is not only to give [you] nothing at all, it's to deprive [you] of the one thing we have to hold onto: real work and an objective correlative." Nor has anyone, I suspect, bothered to acquaint you with the dark subtext that underlies all this nurturing and lying and love: That dishonesty -- for a writer even more than for most "ordinary" people -- is an acquired, and contagious, habit. That if you are lied to by your teachers and encouraged to lie to one another and, ultimately, to lie to yourself, the habit of lying will ultimately permeate both your soul and your work, and you will be incapable -- even if you are otherwise graced with the gifts of language, subject, time, and peace of mind -- of uttering in your work that most difficult, and necessary, of truths: the truth, as Matthew Arnold put it, "of what we feel indeed." And so, my young friends, I leave you with perhaps not the most stellar student evaluations, but also with the luxury of not needing them, seeing as how the department of which I aspire to be a tenured member has no office here, nor at any other university. And if, some day, as has happened to me on numerous occasions in the past, I should receive a letter from some -- or at least one -- of you, saying, "Although I didn't particularly like you at the time, or feel sufficiently praised by you, I realize now that I learned something about poetry, and about the struggles and exhilarations of being a writer, from being in your class," it will feel as good to me as being praised by one of your mothers, or covered by the media. It will even -- let me assure you -- feel better than being loved. Respectfully yours, Michael Blumenthal Michael Blumenthal, a poet, novelist, essayist, and translator, was a visiting writer at Santa Clara University last spring. This fall he will be a visiting professor of American literature at the University Jean Monnet Saint-Etienne and a visiting professor of creative nonfiction at the American University of Paris. His memoir, All My Mothers and Fathers, will be published by Harper Collins next March. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Tue Aug 21 15:31:08 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 15:31:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Love & Ink like Oil & Water? In-Reply-To: <13d.1b5634.28b3d02d@aol.com> Message-ID: Another demo that there's no fool like an old fool? Hal "Flotsam, please, and a side order of jetsam." Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson > This article from The Chronicle of Higher Education > (http://chronicle.com) was posted recently on WomPo... > From the issue dated August 17, 2001 > > A Letter to My Students > > By MICHAEL BLUMENTHAL > > My dear young friends: > > As I prepare to depart your august institution, I am aware > that I will hardly be leaving a mournful group of tear-struck > students in my wake. On the contrary, many of you will be glad > to see me go. For, I well realize, many of the expectations > engendered, and nurtured, by your previous instructors in what > we call -- at times euphemistically -- "creative writing" have > been disappointed, if not downright dashed, by my presence > among you over the past 10 weeks. > > Several weeks before the end of this quarter, I was struck by > a certain "Love Letter and Thank You Note" addressed to you > and my other temporary colleagues by one of the younger, > departing professors of creative writing -- a warm and > seemingly charming person -- in which she declared her > devotion to what she described as "student-centered, > relationship-based teaching," and attributed her own, > self-described success (which I have come to equate, simply, > with popularity) to the fact that she "love(s) my students." > She "started loving my students," she went on, "because I saw > such inspiring, fragile, invincible, vulnerable beauty in > them." She saw, our young poet did, "the same kind of beauty > in them I see in the just-about-to-fall spring petals on the > trees ..." > > Not satisfied with providing her own encomiums to her > capacities as a teacher, our young colleague -- whom many of > you had as a teacher -- also furnished testimony from one of > her students' mothers, who, after having sat in on her class > and observed what was no doubt the unabashed praise of her > offspring's work, said to our erstwhile young professor, "I > wish the media would cover stories like this [class] -- we'd > all feel a lot more hope about our future in this country." > > This being California, our young, > about-to-go-on-to-greener-pastures professor couldn't, of > course, simply content herself with an outsider's praise. > "When people feel loved, nourished, supported and respected; > when people feel recognized, seen, and known; when people feel > unique and valued," she went on, "they feel confident enough > to explore their gifts, to develop those gifts, and to make > significant contributions to the human community." To which I > can only add: Amen. > > In her defense, my younger colleague is probably a victim of > what a friend of mine contends (and I wholeheartedly agree) > has become, increasingly, the purpose of university life > itself: the presentation of moments of self-gratification, > little assurances and narcissistic stabilizers that confirm: > Yes, I am smart, I am creative, I am loved. Personally, > however, I prefer Goethe's approach -- of which you will come, > in time, like it or not, to see the wisdom: "If I love you," > the great bard wisely asked, "what business is that of yours?" > > And now, my young friends, at the risk of both dashing one of > your dear mother's hopes, and relieving any of you who may be > experiencing a certain sadness at my departure, let me make a > terrible confession: I do not love you. While I have come to > like several of you quite a bit, admire some others, feel > sympathy for some, and a cool distance toward others, I must > confess that for none of you have I developed that rare, > precious, and deeply human feeling I would describe as love. > > Nor, let me assure you, am I someone incapable of feeling that > emotion we call love. I love my son and my close friends. I > have loved both my wives in different ways, and several lovers > before and between them. But I was not brought here -- your > former professor's mushy rhetoric notwithstanding -- to love > you, but, rather, to teach you, as I hope I have, something > about the beauties, challenges, hardships, joys, and dignity > of making, and reading, poems. I was brought here not to be an > oracle of love, but because presumably I knew a bit more about > being a writer than you do; so that, with some luck and > application on all our parts, we might together learn > something about that difficult and demanding vocation. > > Several years ago, a friend of mine, a long-tenured professor > of creative writing, warned me -- in a gesture both > well-meaning and sincere -- not to "shit in your own > backyard," an act for which my ancestors, the Germans, have a > much more poignant, and efficient, term: Nestbeschmutzer -- > someone who dirties his own nest, a term popular among the > Nazis as well. But thanks in no small part to colleagues like > the one who has showered you with her love and testimonials to > "the endless possibilities of the human spirit," I have long > ago ceased to think of the world of creative writing and its > instructors as my "nest" (much as I would like to hope that I > have a home of sorts in the world of literature), nor have I > continued, except for occasional forays such as this one, to > inhabit that backyard. So I can afford, as I am doing now, to > take liberties, preferring to cite a line from one of my own > generation's better poets, Bob Dylan: "When you got nothin', > you got nothin' to lose." > > On our first day of class this quarter, I told you that, > insofar as I was concerned, there were three possible things > to be gained from a class in creative writing: the ability to > become better, more discriminating readers; a greater capacity > for truth-telling and, with it, the acceptance of hard truths > from others; and a greater respect for the difficulty of > writing itself. If I have done my job, whether you have come > to "love" me or not, you may have learned something about all > three, and I can leave here a satisfied, if not universally > beloved, teacher. > > Which leads me to yet another confession you may, or may not, > want to hear: I do not need your love. (And is there, I > wonder, a more abused, and misused, word in all of the English > language than "love"?) For I am, in that sense, a lucky man: I > already have the love of most, if not all, of those whose love > I need. What I need from you, or at least would prefer, is > something more befitting our student-teacher relationship: > your respect. And respect -- let me assure you, from the lofty > vantage point of middle age -- is something both more > enduring, and more necessary of being earned, than are the > vagaries and vicissitudes of what we so often mistakenly call > "love." > > Nonetheless, I am well aware that you are under the impression > that you have been "nurtured" and "loved" by certain teachers > who have been far more popular with you than I have been. But > let me let you in on yet another little trade secret: You have > been neither loved nor nurtured. You have, rather, been lied > to and betrayed. Though the mother's milk that flows from such > breasts may temporarily satisfy your ravenous appetites for > praise (and its donors' hunger for tenure), it is not, I > assure you, a very nourishing brew. > > You have been told that the not good is good, that the > unworthy is the worthy. Rather than being commended on the > hard work and noble intentions of your ambition (when it was > worth commending), you have been praised for the beauty and > rightness of its product (for poetry, as the poet Howard > Nemerov once put it, is "getting something right in > language"). > > And, perhaps worst of all, to paraphrase Auden, rather than > being respected for wanting to learn how to play an > instrument, you have been virtually handed a seat in the > orchestra, endowed with a feeling of professionalism without > either the hard work or genuine apprenticeship that normally > precedes it. This, today, is what passes for "nurturing"; once > upon a time, it went by another name: deceit. But to give you > such unearned praise -- as a friend of mine, a long-tenured > professor who has taught at Johns Hopkins, Stanford, and the > University of Chicago, recently reminded me -- "is not only to > give [you] nothing at all, it's to deprive [you] of the one > thing we have to hold onto: real work and an objective > correlative." > > Nor has anyone, I suspect, bothered to acquaint you with the > dark subtext that underlies all this nurturing and lying and > love: That dishonesty -- for a writer even more than for most > "ordinary" people -- is an acquired, and contagious, habit. > That if you are lied to by your teachers and encouraged to lie > to one another and, ultimately, to lie to yourself, the habit > of lying will ultimately permeate both your soul and your > work, and you will be incapable -- even if you are otherwise > graced with the gifts of language, subject, time, and peace of > mind -- of uttering in your work that most difficult, and > necessary, of truths: the truth, as Matthew Arnold put it, "of > what we feel indeed." > > And so, my young friends, I leave you with perhaps not the > most stellar student evaluations, but also with the luxury of > not needing them, seeing as how the department of which I > aspire to be a tenured member has no office here, nor at any > other university. And if, some day, as has happened to me on > numerous occasions in the past, I should receive a letter from > some -- or at least one -- of you, saying, "Although I didn't > particularly like you at the time, or feel sufficiently > praised by you, I realize now that I learned something about > poetry, and about the struggles and exhilarations of being a > writer, from being in your class," it will feel as good to me > as being praised by one of your mothers, or covered by the > media. > > It will even -- let me assure you -- feel better than being > loved. > > Respectfully yours, > Michael Blumenthal > > Michael Blumenthal, a poet, novelist, essayist, and > translator, was a visiting writer at Santa Clara University > last spring. This fall he will be a visiting professor of > American literature at the University Jean Monnet > Saint-Etienne and a visiting professor of creative nonfiction > at the American University of Paris. His memoir, All My > Mothers and Fathers, will be published by Harper Collins next > March. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From JforJames at aol.com Tue Aug 21 17:47:26 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2001 17:47:26 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Feeding the Fire by Jeffrey Harrison Message-ID: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Sarabande Books Announces the November 2001 Publication of Feeding the Fire, Poems by Jeffrey Harrison Harrisons language is exact, sinuous, and compelling, and leads, as in the memorable Our Other Sister, to places we may not have seen before, but know when we arrive. This is a beautiful book. Henry Taylor This is a book that can be read from start to finish with ever-heightened expectations that are never disappointed, and with sustained delight. The poems move with the fluidity of a minds swift and graceful agility, full of darts and surprising turns, alive with leaps, sprints, and spirals. Anthony Hecht Here are hauntingly composed poems of remembrance, of happiness and eagerness and regretof life lyrically embraced, all beautifully rendered by one of our finest poets. Robert Coles Jeffrey Harrisons third collection, Feeding the Fire, sustains itself on the fuel of memory. In these new poems, the charged moments of youth, dimly understood at the time of occurrence, return to the poet in flashes of brilliant clarity and passages of transporting reminiscence. Its the transitions / Ive always loved, that sense of being / two places and once and in neither one, Harrison says in a poem that recaptures youthful exuberance. In other poems, a calmer, surreally precise rendering returns past scenes to their inchoate mystery. Harrison recreates the gravity, as well as the levity, of small events, finding words for both the ineffable and the embarrassing encounters of the pastinnocence seen through the eyes of experience. The result is provocative and intense. The poems make a kind of suspension bridge between our own amorphous younger selvesall perception and desireand the no less mysterious vantage of mid life. Harrison is the author of two highly praised previous collections of poems, one a winner in the National Poetry Series. Feeding the Fire retains the virtue of the earlier workaccessibility and clarity, without sacrifice of complexitywhile branching into new territory. In addition to the poems of recollection, there are love poems, lyrics of the here-and-now, poems entwined in the doubleness of metaphor, as well as a number of elegies for the unfamous, those indelible characters met in any life who shape individual consciousness. In all these poems, Harrison is a superb makerthe skill and intelligence of every line coaxes out the potential of language. In this new collection, Harrison affirms the restorative mystery of our own innocence and articulates our complex, stumbling passage toward experience. Jeffrey Harrison is the author of Feeding the Fire (Sarabande Books, 2001), and of two previous books of poetry, The Singing Underneath, selected by James Merrill for the National Poetry Series, and Signs of Arrival. He has received fellowships from the John Simon Guggenheim Memorial Foundation and the National Endowment for the Arts, as well as a Pushcart Prize, the Amy Lowell Traveling Poetry Scholarship, and the Lavan Younger Poets Award from the Academy of American Poets. His poems have appeared in The New Yorker, The New Republic, Poetry, The Paris Review, The Yale Review, and in many other magazines. He has taught at several universities, and at Phillips Academy, where he was the Roger Murray Writer-in-Residence for three years. Feeding the Fire is the forty-first title to be published by Sarabande Books, a nonprofit literary press headquartered in Louisville, Kentucky. Founded in 1994 to publish poetry and short fiction, Sarabandes mission is to disburse these works with diligence and integrity, and to serve as an educational resource to teachers and students of creative writing. This book was funded in part by a grant from the Kentucky Arts Council, a state agency of the Education, Arts and Humanities Cabinet, and by a grant from the National Endowment for the Arts. Title: Feeding the Fire Author: Jeffrey Harrison ISBN: 1-889330-63-9 (cloth) 1-889330-64-7 (paper) Price: $20.95 (cloth) $12.95 (paper) Trim: 6 x 9 Marketing Information: --Author tour in Cincinnati, New York City, and Boston areas. --Ads in AWP, Poets & Writers, Poetry, Poetry Calendar, and American Poetry Review. --Featured Title in Sarabande Catalog and Newsletter. --Brochures and Postcards to MFA Programs, Bookstores, Libraries, and Author Lists. For additional information or to request a review copy, please contact: Nickole Brown Sarabande Books 2234 Dundee Road, Suite 200 Louisville, KY 40205 Phone: (502) 458-4028 Fax: (502) 458-4065 E-mail: SarabandeB at aol.com Distributed to the trade by: Consortium Book Sales & Distribution, Inc. 1045 Westgate Drive Saint Paul, MN 55114 (800) 283-3572 Please visit our Website! www.SarabandeBooks.org Green Canoe I don't often get the chance any longer to go out alone in the green canoe and, lying in the bottom of the boat, just drift where the breeze takes me, down to the other end of the lake or into some cove without my knowing because I can't see anything over the gunwales but sky as I lie there, feeling the ribs of the boat as my own, this floating pod with a body inside it... also a mind, that drifts among clouds and the sounds that carry over water a flutter of birdsong, a screen door slamming shut as well as the usual stuff that clutters it, but slowed down, opened up, like the fluff of milkweed tugged from its husk and floating over the lake, to be mistaken for mayflies at dusk by feeding trout, or be carried away to a place where the seeds might sprout. From TerryP17 at aol.com Wed Aug 22 15:07:59 2001 From: TerryP17 at aol.com (TerryP17 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 15:07:59 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Love & Ink like Oil & Water? Message-ID: <95.f343330.28b55d10@aol.com> Amber-- <> Astute observation in more ways than one, one which you seem to share with Paul. Blumenthal's "letter" shows a preference to share wit and wisdom with peers rather than with the student-unwashed. I sympathize with this guy's irritation at the love-and-kisses school of writing, but not with his smugly condescending attitude. The larger subtext here is that students, whether in creative or expository writing are just not coming to college with the tools that used to be expected, and many college instructors, rightly or wrongly, are not interested in remedying the deficiency. It is a serious problem that this piece only hints at. Terry Ponick From JforJames at aol.com Wed Aug 22 16:56:17 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 16:56:17 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Love & Ink like Oil & Water? Message-ID: <7b.19d30364.28b57671@aol.com> Aside from the off-putting attitude of the Blumethal's piece, I wonder if one shouldn't take a different approach when teaching an undergraduate Intro to Poetry Writing (as I imagine the class MB referred to was) than when leading a more rigorous graduate MFA Poetry Workshop. I can't see any point in alienating younger students, whose interest in poetry may be casual at best, with one's brutally honest criticism. It seems like the goal for the former would be to engender a love of the art form by teaching them to recognize what's going on inside of poems, and along the way imparting a few tips that might help them make better poems if they have a serious desire to do so. I'd imagine that the better students in a class that had too little rigor would be as annoyed with the instructor as the lesser students might be in a workshop where "tough love" critiques were the norm. It's been a while since I read the piece, but wasn't Roethke's essay "Last Class" a bit like Blumenthal's parting shot. I seem to remember it being a bit nasty in tone. Finnegan From DICK at watson.ibm.com Wed Aug 22 16:57:58 2001 From: DICK at watson.ibm.com (DICK at watson.ibm.com) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 01 16:57:58 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Comments on Love and Ink Message-ID: <200108222124.f7MLOSn19668@sp1n189at0.watson.ibm.com> As is often the case, Amber's comments make more sense than most. If criticism is delivered with respect, e.g., " you can do better, and this is how I think you should proceed..." this is no less than students and teachers have a right to expect from each other. If criticism is made with contempt, that is in itself contemptible and unacceptable. However, it nevertheless doesn't mean that the work is praiseworthy. Paul Lake recognizes the problem of students not being correctly informed of the quality of their work, but then veers off on an irrelevant tangent, that Blumenthal is praising himself in his note. Doesn't really say anything about B's point, does it? I for one wish that more teachers had Blumenthal's attitude toward teaching than the one B. ascribes to his colleague. Richard From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Wed Aug 22 06:47:41 2001 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 05:47:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Comments on Love and Ink In-Reply-To: <200108222124.f7MLOSn19668@sp1n189at0.watson.ibm.com> Message-ID: on 8/22/01 3:57 PM, DICK at watson.ibm.com at DICK at watson.ibm.com wrote: > As is often the case, Amber's comments make more sense than > most. If criticism is delivered with respect, e.g., " you > can do better, and this is how I think you should proceed..." > this is no less than students and teachers have a right to > expect from each other. If criticism is made with contempt, > that is in itself contemptible and unacceptable. However, it > nevertheless doesn't mean that the work is praiseworthy. > > Paul Lake recognizes the problem of students not being correctly > informed of the quality of their work, but then veers off on an > irrelevant tangent, that Blumenthal is praising himself in his > note. Doesn't really say anything about B's point, does it? > > I for one wish that more teachers had Blumenthal's attitude > toward teaching than the one B. ascribes to his colleague. > > Richard > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > If the choice is between Blumenthal's brutal "truth" and the other poet's ubiquitous "love," I'll take Blumenthal's method, too. But, like you, I prefer Amber's approach--honest but respectful criticism and encouragement whenever possible. Paul Lake From klvarnes at home.com Thu Aug 23 00:03:26 2001 From: klvarnes at home.com (Kathrine Varnes) Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 23:03:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] bob & wheel query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Like most of you, I get lots of poetry questions from friends and academics, but this one has me stumped. A pal asks about terminology of the bob and wheel -- not what it means -- but from where the terms derive. He had thought these terms were descriptive of the form -- the short bit (bob) followed by a longer bit that circles or wheels back (in rhyme) to the first. Perhaps stemming from mild square dancing trauma in the public elementary school, I'd somehow vaguely connected these terms to early dances. His student suspects they came from weaving. (huh?) Anyone know, or have a really good fake answer? Bobbing but not yet wheeling, Kathrine From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Thu Aug 23 00:43:06 2001 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 00:43:06 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] bob & wheel query Message-ID: <12c.3776c8d.28b5e3da@aol.com> Kathrine, It would be a terrible mistake, of course, to cruelly implicate the bob into square dancing, as bobbing has been outlawed from civilized square dancing since roughly the Third Crusade--except in Louisiana, where, as you know, anything goes--in fact, that's where we originally got *laissez les bob-temps roulez" (Les Mots au Go Go, Jean Paul (Jim Bob) Blaff D'Orsin, Fleche Press, Aix-a-Year-en-Provence, p. 58.) So, in truth, Bob and Wheel have sometimes referred to distinct devices for applying polish: the bob being one kind of thing, and the wheel quite another. What you polish with a bob is, of course, a bob. Though you can also buff with a bob, and you can bob in the buff, and in Louisiana, you can bob WITH a consenting buff. But this is, you know, nothing but a fifth-tier definition, not countenanced by Dante, and not at all what you're after, either. Bob Dylan's _This Wheel's on Fire_ is often thought--mistakenly so--to mark the etymology of this particular phraseology, linguistically speaking. Alas, another false lead. No. The answer my friend is bloody obvious. The culprit (as so often turns out in matters orthographic) is that pesky final letter *l* -- which was never, ever meant to be an *l* but rather a (an) *!*. It all makes sense when you see the phrase as *bob & whee!* which, naturally, refers to the volta--you know, that little hemisemidemiquaver at the start of the 9th line that separates the lyric part and the didactic finale of the Shakespearean sonnet, many of its benefactors and most of its offspring. It derives from the Bard's habit of biting into the fallen limb of an apple tree while it lay aslant a stream--which he routinely did for inspiration or refreshment immediately after completing his labors over the first two quatrains (Shakespeare, the Missing Years. Hodbodkins. p. 81, n.12. Stratford-Off-Off Avon Press, 1802.) Hope this helps. Jeffrey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jdavis at panix.com Thu Aug 23 09:20:09 2001 From: jdavis at panix.com (Jordan Davis) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 09:20:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Comments on Love and Ink In-Reply-To: <200108222124.f7MLOSn19668@sp1n189at0.watson.ibm.com> Message-ID: > Paul Lake recognizes the problem of students not being correctly > informed of the quality of their work, but then veers off on an > irrelevant tangent, that Blumenthal is praising himself in his > note. Doesn't really say anything about B's point, does it? On the contrary, it indicates that Blumenthal is more of an authority on vanity than he pretends, and that he may have been misinformed on the matter of quality and his own work. All that nonsense about writing being hard work -- so go take it easy as a human resources vice president then! And quit yammering into your beard about kids today. Or, of course writing is hard work, but weren't yukyuks like Blumenthal formerly fond of saying that the point was to make it look easy? Jordan Davis From JforJames at aol.com Thu Aug 23 10:10:48 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 10:10:48 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] redirected CONDUIT Message-ID: Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 12:24:24 -0400 From: Gabriel Gudding Subject: New Website: CONDUIT Pologies for Cruss-pustin. www.conduit.org Very strange, very fun, and some lippy versin. From languagethief at yahoo.com Thu Aug 23 11:39:01 2001 From: languagethief at yahoo.com (The Old Mole) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 08:39:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Comments on Love and Ink In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010823153901.56368.qmail@web12207.mail.yahoo.com> I don't see anything in Blumenthal's screed that indicates he's interested in the quality of education, or the best interests of students, at all. It sounds to me as though he's primarily interested in getting back at the other professor. She sounds kinda lame, but we only have B's word for that. We're only getting his version of her. And we don't know the story behind it. --- Jordan Davis wrote: > > Paul Lake recognizes the problem of students not > being correctly > > informed of the quality of their work, but then > veers off on an > > irrelevant tangent, that Blumenthal is praising > himself in his > > note. Doesn't really say anything about B's point, > does it? > > On the contrary, it indicates that Blumenthal is > more of an authority on > vanity than he pretends, and that he may have been > misinformed on the > matter of quality and his own work. > > All that nonsense about writing being hard work -- > so go take it easy as a > human resources vice president then! And quit > yammering into your beard > about kids today. Or, of course writing is hard > work, but weren't yukyuks > like Blumenthal formerly fond of saying that the > point was to make it look > easy? > > Jordan Davis > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From JforJames at aol.com Thu Aug 23 12:05:01 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 12:05:01 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Dara Wier poem Message-ID: <4d.105dc799.28b683ad@aol.com> Dara Wier Democratic Vistas Steady flow along fingernail production pipelines, Reliable tearwell, good nerve inventory, Adequate eyelash supply, And while we?re here do you have any high-quality Heart rotation powders? Stairwell well-rubbed, in fair condition, Exits & entrances clear, Public area malleable, with sun pockets and shade, Well-marked emotional stations & collection facilities, Over-lapping pacing paths, And since we?re here any chance there?s a little deep- End traction pollen to spare? Quick frozen memento georama transistor helmet outlets, Laser surgery kiosk, re-identification services, And while we?re here might we borrow a key for the Venal extraction elevator, And the venom ducts, have they been secured? Someone wanted to know the whereabouts of the violation Vista, Someone asked how to re-start the informal nervous break- Down battery. The feathers were ready to be attached to the wings. There were a few tongues no one could identify. A placard saying zero defects blew across the courtyard. A scentbox emitted a threat of rain. We?d find tarps for the diary displays & rack of lamb. And while we?re at it, mind if we start a little fire To warm up some biscuits? From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Thu Aug 23 12:45:10 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 12:45:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dara Wier poem References: <4d.105dc799.28b683ad@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B853315.8F569208@ix.netcom.com> Billy-Goth By Yaso Adiodi The gardenias have an insolance about them. The chosen ones wince at the reification of smoke. The truffles are greeted with space attuned to the function constant. Snow blithers inside storming the halibut. It?s a bithard out there? The philharmoonic secretes to the fire exit. Time tested australogies factor max. Stand clear! They dwell on the crust. Chunky peanut butter damns up Soui Ca. Hear the moles and the jewels rumble in the cuisinart. Plain bread is the bane of the barcalounger. Waste knot, And you'll want what the knot held secure. From TerryP17 at aol.com Thu Aug 23 12:57:54 2001 From: TerryP17 at aol.com (TerryP17 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 12:57:54 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Derriere Guard Message-ID: All-- FYI, most PBS stations are airing tonight what promises to be an interesting program on the revival of tonal music, representational art, etc., with perhaps a passing reference to Formalist poetry, all under the occasional banner of the "Derriere Guard" festival that is--or was--periodically hosted in various venues in New York, Chicago, and San Francisco. The Washington Post has already roundly panned the program in a preview this morning (typical of that paper), which indicates it should probably be a controversial show. Program features some friends of mine (and, I believe, Paul Lake's and Sam Gwynn's as well), including composer Stefania de Kennesey, poet-critic Fred Turner, and art philanthropist and critic Jim Cooper. Time in most places is supposed to be 10 PM, in NYC 9PM tomorrow evening. Not having seen a preview myself, I have no idea just how well or badly done the show will be, but I guess there is one way to find out. --Terry Ponick From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Thu Aug 23 13:14:35 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 13:14:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Derriere Guard References: Message-ID: <3B8539FA.EE943767@ix.netcom.com> Pelt-down Man By Yaso Adiodi I've worn the seat of my suit away To reveal my derriere. My suit was cut mohair but my Buttocks are even hairier. My face is a fright, Having once been alight From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Thu Aug 23 14:40:50 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 14:40:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Derriere Guard References: <3B8539FA.EE943767@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3B854E32.CBBBB142@ix.netcom.com> A livid Yaso Adiodi just telegraphed me to inform me that "flame thrower" "should read "flame swallower" in Pelt-down Man. CP "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" wrote: > Pelt-down Man > > By Yaso Adiodi > > I've worn the seat of my suit away > To reveal my derriere. > My suit was cut mohair but my > Buttocks are even hairier. > My face is a fright, > Having once been alight > >From a flame throwers drunken guffaw, > So's I ain't any lenger recognizable to me maw, > But in the end > When I bend > The general consensus is > I'm even scarier. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames at aol.com Thu Aug 23 17:08:10 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 17:08:10 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] CHAIN 8: COMICS is now available Message-ID: <105.8449f9d.28b6caba@aol.com> CHAIN 8: COMICS is now available If you are a contributor or a subscriber, your copies were put in the mail last week. Others can order by sending a check made out to 'A'A Arts for $12 to Jena Osman/Chain Magazine English Department Temple University Anderson Hall (022-29) 1114 W. Berks St. Philadelphia, PA 19122 Contents include works by: Jonathan Allen & John Coletti, Bill Anthony, Peter Bagge, Holly Bittner, Christopher Boucher, Joe Brainard & Robert Creeley, FC Brandt, Ivan Brunetti, Warren Burt, Elizabeth Castagna & Edwin Torres, Isabelle Chemin & Jean-Rene LaSalle, Abigail Child, David Choe, Rey Chow, Emilie Clark & Lyn Hejinian, Peter Conrad, Troy Cook, Martin Corless-Smith & Cathy Wagner, Veronic Corpuz, Brent Cunningham, Jane Dalrymple-Hollo & Anne Waldman, Trane DeVore & David Kirschenbaum, Adam Degraff, Patrick Durgin, Michelle Ellsworth, Larry Feign, Thalia Field, Ellen Forney, Maria Galvez-Breton, Drew Gardner & Gary Sullivan, Stephen Gibson, Phoebe Gloeckner, Arielle Greenberg, Brenda Hillman, Emmanuel Hocquard & Juliette Valery, Sandy Huss, Brenda Iijima, Jeffrey Jullich, Ben Katchor & David Lang & Michael Gordon & Julia Wolfe & David Krasnow, Keith Knight, David Larsen, David Lasky, Paul Lyons, Sawako Nakayasu, Florence Neal, Josh Neufeld, Ron Padgett, Tamara Paris, Raymond Pettibon, Louis Phillips, Jeanne Quinn, Kevin Quigley, Ramez Qureshi, Elizabeth Robinson, David Sandlin, Peter Saul, Leslie Scalapino, Lytle Shaw, Sally Silvers, Chris Slane & Robert Sullivan, Blair Solovy, Virgil Suarez, Lee Tonouchi, John Tranter, Zak Vreeland, Wendy Walker, John Wesley, Mack White, Aleksandar Zogroff, Tom Zummer. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -- From JforJames at aol.com Thu Aug 23 17:09:09 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 17:09:09 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] ROOTSTOCK call for submissions Message-ID: <6b.1970de48.28b6caf5@aol.com> This is a bit of a departure from my usual for the list but Ive managed to get a poetry page in Organic Valley's newsletter, ROOTSTOCK. We are looking to feature 3-5 poems by a single poet & I am specifically looking for work which embodies ecology, organics, health, healing, homesteading, populist politics.... This is a 20 page tabloid newsprint, distributed nationally to food coops & as such is by no means a bastion of avant garde literary activity. Deadline for submissions is Sept 5, 2001. Send your submissions to miekal.and at organicvalley.com www.organicvalley.com mIEKAL From JforJames at aol.com Thu Aug 23 17:19:44 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 17:19:44 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] nicely turned metaphor Message-ID: The poem wasn't any great shakes, but I did like the concluding metaphor. > Across the farmlands a few > of us in a plane are dragging > a shadow-plane, an anchor > that will not grab. > > William Matthews Seen any good ones lately? Finnegan From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Thu Aug 23 18:53:28 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 18:53:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Freneau! Freneau! Where did our poetry go? References: <3B8539FA.EE943767@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3B858967.3DD274A8@ix.netcom.com> (Sorry, but Yaso adamantly refused to allow me to send the unabridged, full-length, twelve CD version of Freneau! Freneau! along to this list, insisting it would violate his contract with Viking/Penguin. Yaso's last volume of verse, "Ask Ted Koppell. I'm Sure Ted Koppell Will Know" was published by Simon and Schuster and won both the Pen/Faulkner award as well two free tickets to the hit movie Delf's Chubby.) By Yaso Adiodi (altered to fit your screen) Freneau! Freneau! Where did our poetry go? Is it in the tea leaves or the sugar cubes? Does it rise to the occasion When we give mummy her lube? Can you cadge a verse on credit? Or buy it by the tube? Can you shove it into Two chords and sell it to pre-pubes? Does it mellow with tenure And surrender all its odor? A professional mulch? A soporific confection of manure That we sprinkle on the heads Of the young and impressionable When we sequester one by one In our office confessional. Or erect a verse like Legos From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Thu Aug 23 23:48:28 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 22:48:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Freneau! Freneau! Where did our poetry go? Message-ID: <200108240348.f7O3mHv89319@mx2.mx.voyager.net> Verse this nasty ought to be better wrought, I should think. As William Carlos Williams once noted, in response to some poorly crafted rhyming verse by Allen Ginsberg, "in this mode perfection is basic." _______________________ David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu _______________________ ---------- >From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: [New-Poetry] Freneau! Freneau! Where did our poetry go? >Date: Thu, Aug 23, 2001, 5:53 PM > >(Sorry, but Yaso adamantly refused to allow me to send the unabridged, >full-length, twelve CD version of Freneau! Freneau! along to this list, >insisting it would violate his contract with Viking/Penguin. Yaso's >last volume of verse, "Ask Ted Koppell. I'm Sure Ted Koppell Will Know" >was published by Simon and Schuster and won both the Pen/Faulkner award >as well two free tickets to the hit movie Delf's Chubby.) > > >By Yaso Adiodi >(altered to fit your screen) > >Freneau! Freneau! > >Where did our poetry go? >Is it in the tea leaves or the sugar cubes? >Does it rise to the occasion >When we give mummy her lube? > >Can you cadge a verse on credit? >Or buy it by the tube? >Can you shove it into >Two chords and sell it to pre-pubes? > >Does it mellow with tenure >And surrender all its odor? >A professional mulch? >A soporific confection of manure > >That we sprinkle on the heads >Of the young and impressionable >When we sequester one by one >In our office confessional. > >Or erect a verse like Legos >From the brightly delusional plastique >Of our Lexingtons and Alamos >With the blood bathos of worn technique. > >Or the pity patterson of little feet >Chasing little, domestic thoughts >Like a shit smeared child grinning >Ear-to-ear, proud of what it's wrought. > >So where in this fair Republic >Hides the verse we should all hold close? >Should I ask Phil Levine in his denim >While before a factory we pose? > >Should I run ask old Stanley Kunitz >Where the anthems in his dirty laundry lie? >Should I ask the crimson main of Jorie Graham >If it is more poetic to die and dye. > >Should I ask Gary Snyder if his silent >Bhuddy is sittin' his fat ass on the way. >Or should I ask Rita Dove what >Makes a poem fall like a souffle. > >Or should I shuck the ghost of Berryman >From the bark of the suicide tree? >Or should I rush to stop the Ferryman >Before he shuttles Ammons to crispy immutability. > >Should I juju Weldon Kees car keys? >Should I ouija up Sexton or Plath? >Or any of the hermetics >Of the Solipsist's bloodbath? > >Should I like Poe drag Poe >From his vintage vault? >Should I grift a backhoe >And interrogate Walt? > >Should I rouse old Emily in a s?ance? >See if under her skirts is concealed what I must know? >Should I spill chicken blood on the mouldy pants >Of John Greenleaf Whittier and Henry 'The Rake' Longfellow? > >Should I ask the salon of poets >That are proud to lead with their asses >Why the beauty they say they so pine for >Requires think tanks of hired assassins? > >Or ask little Hilty Kramer >Who this immigrant once terrified >If he might not better appreciate campesino verse >If U.S. blood money financed his last ride. > >Or ask the "leftist" poet about >The subversions of the signified >That result from becoming a market analyst >And, beard shorn, incognito going along for the ride. > >Or all the talentless, disillusioned boobs >Wandering the wonderless ivory halls >Scouring the office, the Safeway, and personal grief >For poetry no bigger than their cubicles. > >So I'm sorry to have bothered you >My dear, dear patriot-poet Freneau. >You weren't no great shakes yourself >But, at least, this you had the grace to know. > > > > > From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 24 09:21:31 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 09:21:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Freneau! Freneau! Where did our poetry go? References: <200108240348.f7O3mHv89319@mx2.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <3B8654DA.8CBD2C96@ix.netcom.com> I'll let Yaso know of your concerns. But I'll wait til the end of the month when he's scheduled to get his injections. CP David Graham wrote: > Verse this nasty ought to be better wrought, I should think. As William > Carlos Williams once noted, in response to some poorly crafted rhyming verse > by Allen Ginsberg, "in this mode perfection is basic." > _______________________ > David Graham > grahamd at mail.ripon.edu > _______________________ > > ---------- > >From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >Subject: [New-Poetry] Freneau! Freneau! Where did our poetry go? > >Date: Thu, Aug 23, 2001, 5:53 PM > > > > >(Sorry, but Yaso adamantly refused to allow me to send the unabridged, > >full-length, twelve CD version of Freneau! Freneau! along to this list, > >insisting it would violate his contract with Viking/Penguin. Yaso's > >last volume of verse, "Ask Ted Koppell. I'm Sure Ted Koppell Will Know" > >was published by Simon and Schuster and won both the Pen/Faulkner award > >as well two free tickets to the hit movie Delf's Chubby.) > > > > > >By Yaso Adiodi > >(altered to fit your screen) > > > >Freneau! Freneau! > > > >Where did our poetry go? > >Is it in the tea leaves or the sugar cubes? > >Does it rise to the occasion > >When we give mummy her lube? > > > >Can you cadge a verse on credit? > >Or buy it by the tube? > >Can you shove it into > >Two chords and sell it to pre-pubes? > > > >Does it mellow with tenure > >And surrender all its odor? > >A professional mulch? > >A soporific confection of manure > > > >That we sprinkle on the heads > >Of the young and impressionable > >When we sequester one by one > >In our office confessional. > > > >Or erect a verse like Legos > >From the brightly delusional plastique > >Of our Lexingtons and Alamos > >With the blood bathos of worn technique. > > > >Or the pity patterson of little feet > >Chasing little, domestic thoughts > >Like a shit smeared child grinning > >Ear-to-ear, proud of what it's wrought. > > > >So where in this fair Republic > >Hides the verse we should all hold close? > >Should I ask Phil Levine in his denim > >While before a factory we pose? > > > >Should I run ask old Stanley Kunitz > >Where the anthems in his dirty laundry lie? > >Should I ask the crimson main of Jorie Graham > >If it is more poetic to die and dye. > > > >Should I ask Gary Snyder if his silent > >Bhuddy is sittin' his fat ass on the way. > >Or should I ask Rita Dove what > >Makes a poem fall like a souffle. > > > >Or should I shuck the ghost of Berryman > >From the bark of the suicide tree? > >Or should I rush to stop the Ferryman > >Before he shuttles Ammons to crispy immutability. > > > >Should I juju Weldon Kees car keys? > >Should I ouija up Sexton or Plath? > >Or any of the hermetics > >Of the Solipsist's bloodbath? > > > >Should I like Poe drag Poe > >From his vintage vault? > >Should I grift a backhoe > >And interrogate Walt? > > > >Should I rouse old Emily in a s?ance? > >See if under her skirts is concealed what I must know? > >Should I spill chicken blood on the mouldy pants > >Of John Greenleaf Whittier and Henry 'The Rake' Longfellow? > > > >Should I ask the salon of poets > >That are proud to lead with their asses > >Why the beauty they say they so pine for > >Requires think tanks of hired assassins? > > > >Or ask little Hilty Kramer > >Who this immigrant once terrified > >If he might not better appreciate campesino verse > >If U.S. blood money financed his last ride. > > > >Or ask the "leftist" poet about > >The subversions of the signified > >That result from becoming a market analyst > >And, beard shorn, incognito going along for the ride. > > > >Or all the talentless, disillusioned boobs > >Wandering the wonderless ivory halls > >Scouring the office, the Safeway, and personal grief > >For poetry no bigger than their cubicles. > > > >So I'm sorry to have bothered you > >My dear, dear patriot-poet Freneau. > >You weren't no great shakes yourself > >But, at least, this you had the grace to know. > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 24 09:35:58 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 09:35:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Freneau! Freneau! Where did our poetry go? References: <200108240348.f7O3mHv89319@mx2.mx.voyager.net> <3B8654DA.8CBD2C96@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3B86583E.2A286A5B@ix.netcom.com> Also, after a telepathic chat with Yaso early this morning, I convinced the non-native born speaker that the term he was looking for in Pelt-down Man was "fire-eater" e.g. the "fire-eater guffawed." CP P.S. How would Williams know? "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" wrote: > I'll let Yaso know of your concerns. But I'll wait til the end of the month when > he's scheduled to get his injections. CP > > David Graham wrote: > > > Verse this nasty ought to be better wrought, I should think. As William > > Carlos Williams once noted, in response to some poorly crafted rhyming verse > > by Allen Ginsberg, "in this mode perfection is basic." > > _______________________ > > David Graham > > grahamd at mail.ripon.edu > > _______________________ > > > > ---------- > > >From: "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" > > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > >Subject: [New-Poetry] Freneau! Freneau! Where did our poetry go? > > >Date: Thu, Aug 23, 2001, 5:53 PM > > > > > > > >(Sorry, but Yaso adamantly refused to allow me to send the unabridged, > > >full-length, twelve CD version of Freneau! Freneau! along to this list, > > >insisting it would violate his contract with Viking/Penguin. Yaso's > > >last volume of verse, "Ask Ted Koppell. I'm Sure Ted Koppell Will Know" > > >was published by Simon and Schuster and won both the Pen/Faulkner award > > >as well two free tickets to the hit movie Delf's Chubby.) > > > > > > > > >By Yaso Adiodi > > >(altered to fit your screen) > > > > > >Freneau! Freneau! > > > > > >Where did our poetry go? > > >Is it in the tea leaves or the sugar cubes? > > >Does it rise to the occasion > > >When we give mummy her lube? > > > > > >Can you cadge a verse on credit? > > >Or buy it by the tube? > > >Can you shove it into > > >Two chords and sell it to pre-pubes? > > > > > >Does it mellow with tenure > > >And surrender all its odor? > > >A professional mulch? > > >A soporific confection of manure > > > > > >That we sprinkle on the heads > > >Of the young and impressionable > > >When we sequester one by one > > >In our office confessional. > > > > > >Or erect a verse like Legos > > >From the brightly delusional plastique > > >Of our Lexingtons and Alamos > > >With the blood bathos of worn technique. > > > > > >Or the pity patterson of little feet > > >Chasing little, domestic thoughts > > >Like a shit smeared child grinning > > >Ear-to-ear, proud of what it's wrought. > > > > > >So where in this fair Republic > > >Hides the verse we should all hold close? > > >Should I ask Phil Levine in his denim > > >While before a factory we pose? > > > > > >Should I run ask old Stanley Kunitz > > >Where the anthems in his dirty laundry lie? > > >Should I ask the crimson main of Jorie Graham > > >If it is more poetic to die and dye. > > > > > >Should I ask Gary Snyder if his silent > > >Bhuddy is sittin' his fat ass on the way. > > >Or should I ask Rita Dove what > > >Makes a poem fall like a souffle. > > > > > >Or should I shuck the ghost of Berryman > > >From the bark of the suicide tree? > > >Or should I rush to stop the Ferryman > > >Before he shuttles Ammons to crispy immutability. > > > > > >Should I juju Weldon Kees car keys? > > >Should I ouija up Sexton or Plath? > > >Or any of the hermetics > > >Of the Solipsist's bloodbath? > > > > > >Should I like Poe drag Poe > > >From his vintage vault? > > >Should I grift a backhoe > > >And interrogate Walt? > > > > > >Should I rouse old Emily in a s?ance? > > >See if under her skirts is concealed what I must know? > > >Should I spill chicken blood on the mouldy pants > > >Of John Greenleaf Whittier and Henry 'The Rake' Longfellow? > > > > > >Should I ask the salon of poets > > >That are proud to lead with their asses > > >Why the beauty they say they so pine for > > >Requires think tanks of hired assassins? > > > > > >Or ask little Hilty Kramer > > >Who this immigrant once terrified > > >If he might not better appreciate campesino verse > > >If U.S. blood money financed his last ride. > > > > > >Or ask the "leftist" poet about > > >The subversions of the signified > > >That result from becoming a market analyst > > >And, beard shorn, incognito going along for the ride. > > > > > >Or all the talentless, disillusioned boobs > > >Wandering the wonderless ivory halls > > >Scouring the office, the Safeway, and personal grief > > >For poetry no bigger than their cubicles. > > > > > >So I'm sorry to have bothered you > > >My dear, dear patriot-poet Freneau. > > >You weren't no great shakes yourself > > >But, at least, this you had the grace to know. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames at aol.com Fri Aug 24 10:25:39 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 10:25:39 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Eleni Sikelianos poem Message-ID: <12a.3516b8e.28b7bde3@aol.com> Matter has been Blown off the Surface of this V i s i b l e Star In my collection of gluons whose color adds up to white: a time the universe was the size of a darkening string; a quark, an antiquark, red + antired, green + antigreen, or blue = white. A glue ball, really---(Are there any infinities left?) Yes, yes, they still unload the crates of Coca-Cola in the winter morning sunlight, some third graders' milk cartons in blue plastic bags waiting on the street corner. What are they waiting for? (The trash collectors.) I will have to eliminate them---the yellow styrofoam lunch boxes stacked together, oily, glistening---Listen: The earth together with all its inhabitants, all demolished and not-demolished things, is out there hissing. Eleni Sikelianos --------------------------------- copyright (c) Eleni Sikelianos. From "Earliest Worlds," published by Coffee House Press (http://www.coffeehousepress.org) --------------------------------- From GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU Fri Aug 24 10:58:28 2001 From: GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU (Graham, David) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 09:58:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Freneau! Freneau! Where did our poetry go? Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDE9B@mail.ripon.edu> The entity known as "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" wrote, in regard to Williams chastising Ginsberg for some poorly written rhymes: "P.S. How would Williams know?" I daresay he knew enough to recognize an ad hominem when it bopped him on the nose. There's that nastiness I was lamenting once again rearing. . . . But to wrench this "discussion" back to poetry, I am ready to listen to criticism of the work of Levine, Jorie Graham, or even Williams. And I enjoy some nicely turned satire. But sophomoric jabs at Jorie G's *hair* written in god-awful doggerel? Spare me. Over and out, David =================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu =================== > ---------- > From: R.Gancie/C.Parcelli > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 8:35 AM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Freneau! Freneau! Where did our poetry > go? > > Also, after a telepathic chat with Yaso early this morning, I convinced > the > non-native born speaker that the term he was looking for in Pelt-down Man > was > "fire-eater" e.g. the "fire-eater guffawed." CP > > P.S. How would Williams know? > > "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" wrote: > > > I'll let Yaso know of your concerns. But I'll wait til the end of the > month when > > he's scheduled to get his injections. CP > > > > David Graham wrote: > > > > > Verse this nasty ought to be better wrought, I should think. As > William > > > Carlos Williams once noted, in response to some poorly crafted rhyming > verse > > > by Allen Ginsberg, "in this mode perfection is basic." > > > _______________________ > From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Aug 24 11:17:32 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:17:32 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Freneau! Freneau! Where did our poetry go? Message-ID: In a message dated 8/24/01 10:00:06 AM Central Daylight Time, GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU writes: > But sophomoric jabs at Jorie G's *hair* > written in god-awful doggerel? Did anyone ever see that awful sestina David Lehman wrote about Jorie G.? It was in the New Republic, I believe. Can't find my copy of it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jdavis at panix.com Fri Aug 24 11:23:02 2001 From: jdavis at panix.com (Jordan Davis) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:23:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Lehman re Graham's hair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Big Hair appeared in the TLS. Quite the ambiguous tone, no? Jordan From GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU Fri Aug 24 11:23:34 2001 From: GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU (Graham, David) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 10:23:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Big Hair Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDE9C@mail.ripon.edu> The poem's "Big Hair," and is available online: http://www.webdelsol.com/LITARTS/David_Lehman/bighair.htm DG =================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu =================== > ---------- > From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 10:17 AM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] RE: Freneau! Freneau! Where did our poetry > go? > > In a message dated 8/24/01 10:00:06 AM Central Daylight Time, > GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU writes: > > > > > But sophomoric jabs at Jorie G's *hair* > written in god-awful doggerel? > > > > Did anyone ever see that awful sestina David Lehman wrote about Jorie G.? > It > was in the New Republic, I believe. Can't find my copy of it. > From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 24 11:43:14 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:43:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Main Street Midway References: Message-ID: <3B867612.29BF1929@ix.netcom.com> Main Street Midway By Yaso Adiodi Midway through my life, I looked up at my wife. Honey could you please pass the jam. I don't know who I am. But I don't mind cadging the luck Of this silly, simple fuck. Even if to ease my tension He's trapped in another dimension. So what if I'm a little fatter, And I leak at butt and bladder. It's better than bein' North Korean. Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/24/01 10:00:06 AM Central Daylight Time, > GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU writes: > > > >> But sophomoric jabs at Jorie G's *hair* >> written in god-awful doggerel? > > Did anyone ever see that awful sestina David Lehman wrote about Jorie > G.? It > was in the New Republic, I believe. Can't find my copy of it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Fri Aug 24 11:56:22 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 11:56:22 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Big Hair Message-ID: <6f.19abb514.28b7d326@aol.com> In a message dated 8/24/01 11:24:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU writes: > The poem's "Big Hair," and is available online: > > http://www.webdelsol.com/LITARTS/David_Lehman/bighair.htm > A poem like that makes one look out over the parapet of the citadel, toward the horizon, searching for plumes of smoke rising from the barbarian campfires. Not with dread, but with eagerness, the neck cranes toward the fall of the axe. Finnegan From moira_russell at hotmail.com Fri Aug 24 12:07:09 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 08:07:09 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Freneau! Freneau! Where did our poetry go? Message-ID: >sophomoric jabs at Jorie G's *hair* >written in god-awful doggerel? Spare me. //digressive rant mode ON// Why is it society seems so concerned with how women poets (hell, women writers in general) appear? In the quite flattering NYer profile on Graham, the writer STILL spent at least 2-3 paragraphs on her appearance, long skirts, long hair, etc., etc., etc. Does this happen when male poets are profiled? I don't think so. //digressive rant mode OFF// Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From moira_russell at hotmail.com Fri Aug 24 12:12:27 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 08:12:27 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Big Hair Message-ID: > > http://www.webdelsol.com/LITARTS/David_Lehman/bighair.htm >A poem like that makes one look out >over the parapet of the citadel, toward >the horizon, searching for plumes >of smoke rising from the barbarian campfires. >Not with dread, but with eagerness, >the neck cranes toward the fall of the axe. >Finnegan Oh groan. Yes, now women writers WANT to be stereotyped and dismissed in terms of lingerie and physical appearance. Every woman still adores a brute, especially one with a big plume and a bigger axe. Christ on toast. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 24 12:18:39 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 12:18:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Main Street Midway References: <3B867612.29BF1929@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3B867E5F.E15E8CD3@ix.netcom.com> Apparently, Yaso has an old copy of Jane's Light Infantry Weapons in his ward. Excited by the image of a cocklike bodily extension shooting ignited jelly and fond of weapons in general, Yaso insists that in "Pelt-down Man", he is making reference to a flame thrower not a flame eater. He sites Lindsay's work on ancient ballistics and early Greek optics, especially Aristotle and Myopthenes, as his sources. He's clearly at the end of this cycle of medication. Anyway, this morning I teleported myself down to the hearing room at the Capitol where Sticky Dicky Myers' (as we knew him in solitary) confirmation hearings are being held. I put the flame thrower/eater question to the General who replied, "Fuck off, maggot." Desperate for an answer, I protested that I was almost a veteran at which point he had 2 MPs dislocate my shoulders. CP "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" wrote: > Main Street Midway > > By Yaso Adiodi > > Midway through my life, > I looked up at my wife. > Honey could you please pass the jam. > I don't know who I am. > > But I don't mind cadging the luck > Of this silly, simple fuck. > Even if to ease my tension > He's trapped in another dimension. > > So what if I'm a little fatter, > And I leak at butt and bladder. > It's better than bein' > North Korean. > > > Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > >> In a message dated 8/24/01 10:00:06 AM Central Daylight Time, >> GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU writes: >> >> >> >> > But sophomoric jabs at Jorie G's *hair* >> > written in god-awful doggerel? >> >> Did anyone ever see that awful sestina David Lehman wrote about >> Jorie G.? It >> was in the New Republic, I believe. Can't find my copy of it. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Aug 24 12:40:39 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 12:40:39 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Freneau! Freneau! Where did our poetry go? Message-ID: <82.f3290b4.28b7dd87@cs.com> In a message dated 8/24/01 11:08:07 AM Central Daylight Time, moira_russell at hotmail.com writes: > In the quite flattering NYer profile on Graham, > the writer STILL spent at least 2-3 paragraphs on her appearance, long > skirts, long hair, etc., etc., etc. Does this happen when male poets are > profiled? I don't think so. > > It does in the case of Japanese prime ministers. You thought that profile was quite flattering? I can away from it with the impression of a serious nut case. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Aug 24 12:42:29 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 12:42:29 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] My New Poem Message-ID: <22.1ace24ba.28b7ddf5@cs.com> Also, California congressmen get the hair treatment. Which reminds me to post my newest poem. Here it is: What Rep. Condit Revealed -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Fri Aug 24 12:48:28 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 12:48:28 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Big Hair Message-ID: <70.f12d4e1.28b7df5c@aol.com> In a message dated 8/24/01 12:14:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, moira_russell at hotmail.com writes: > > http://www.webdelsol.com/LITARTS/David_Lehman/bighair.htm > >A poem like that makes one look out > >over the parapet of the citadel, toward > >the horizon, searching for plumes > >of smoke rising from the barbarian campfires. > >Not with dread, but with eagerness, > >the neck cranes toward the fall of the axe. > >Finnegan > > Oh groan. Yes, now women writers WANT to be stereotyped and dismissed in > terms of lingerie and physical appearance. Every woman still adores a > brute, especially one with a big plume and a bigger axe. Christ on toast. > Moira, my post was directed at "the poem" not its subject...the poem of a poetry partry boybimbo of the Late Empire. Finnegan From moira_russell at hotmail.com Fri Aug 24 12:51:44 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 08:51:44 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Freneau! Freneau! Where did our poetry go? Message-ID: >You thought that profile was quite flattering? I can away from it with the >impression of a serious nut case. Well, I thought the author really liked Graham, let's put it that way. I thought it was about as much of a puff job as the "review" of the poetry collection "A Working Girl Can't Win" by one of the NYorker editors. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From moira_russell at hotmail.com Fri Aug 24 12:55:41 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 08:55:41 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Big Hair Message-ID: >my post was directed at "the poem" not its subject...the poem >of a poetry partry boybimbo of the Late Empire. >Finnegan "boybimbo"? Why not just "bimbo"? Like "male nurse" or "male slut." Grump grump grump Moira _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From JoFuhrman at excite.com Fri Aug 24 13:05:07 2001 From: JoFuhrman at excite.com (Joanna Fuhrman) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 10:05:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Big Hair Message-ID: <5811024.998672707057.JavaMail.imail@puffer> Yeah I'm embarrassed to say I find that sestina amusing despite its sexism. I first heard about it a few months after Noelle Kocot and I wrote this villanelle poking fun at Lehman. Looking at his poems now I think ours doesn't seem all that skillful-satire probably does work better if it's protected by craft. Anyway, it was written at 2 in the morning which I think shows, but Now reading Lehman's poem, I think maybe ours should have been harsher-should have complained about all the bland name dropping and stock market worrying in the Daily Poems or something. Oh well Joanna --- The Singing Animal World David Lehman you are in the news. David, go smoke some pot. David Lehman you love to schmooze. David Lehman your noir poems provide the clues For what you'll have to ask the hossentot. David Lehman you are in the news Spouting your sexy sexy jailbreak criticism poetry muse. David Lehman you always know which girls are hot. David Lehman, is this why you love to schmooze? Is this anti-De Man stuff just a ruse? But to lose the art is to lose the master, you sot-- David Lehman do you even read the news? Because if you do, you know we're just trying to be crude As sexy girls from outer space take a lot Of time to turn against Da Man, so schmooze, Schmooze! We know you feel confused Among the monochromal caterpillar passageways we forgot Or didn't really know at all, not from the news Blasting black and white before our times, before the noisy butterfly theories eked their ways across the darkened ever-growing poem which is winter but at the end of hibernation stretches the big paw of the anti-lion verb to schmooze. _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ From moira_russell at hotmail.com Fri Aug 24 13:12:50 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 09:12:50 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Big Hair Message-ID: Joanna wrote: >I first heard about it a few months after Noelle Kocot and I wrote this >villanelle poking fun at Lehman. Well hey, why not share a copy? Does it say anything about HIS hair? Could we Photoshop a picture of David Lehman in gun-moll black lingerie? Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 24 13:28:15 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 13:28:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Big Hair References: Message-ID: <3B868EAF.663C96A9@ix.netcom.com> It must be pointed out that Yaso Adiodi holds a grudge against North Koreans. he was once tortured by them along with Bon Jovi. Also, Yaso is a huge admirer of Gen. Dicky Myers and wrote the following "Ode" to honor the Gen.on his 600th bombing run over North Vietnam, South Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, Burma, Southern China, Adis Ababa and Watts. Following the current list discussion with breathless interest concerning the poet who in person insists on leading with her hair, I must warn that some of the language in Yaso's "Ode" could be interpreted as sexist. But there is reference made to baby killing for comic relief. CP Ode (for Dicky Myers) By Yaso Adiodi Whenever I change a pamper, I think of my ol' two ramper With six big cherries loaded on. And when I got to rev her Heaven help them heathin' yaller Babies up their 'round Haiphong. And when I'd nipped and tucked The slanty little fucks I called for my cho-wife in Saigon. And then I'd strip and beat her, Shove her face up next might heat her While she stripped off her stinkin' allied thong. Moira Russell wrote: > Joanna wrote: > > >I first heard about it a few months after Noelle Kocot and I wrote this > >villanelle poking fun at Lehman. > > Well hey, why not share a copy? Does it say anything about HIS hair? Could > we Photoshop a picture of David Lehman in gun-moll black lingerie? > > Moira Russell > Seattle, WA > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 24 13:35:16 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 13:35:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Big Hair References: <3B868EAF.663C96A9@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3B869053.7E334087@ix.netcom.com> Note: "Ode" was formerly called "Ode To My Load"; hence the too obvious reference in the opening line. "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" wrote: > It must be pointed out that Yaso Adiodi holds a grudge against North Koreans. he > was once tortured by them along with Bon Jovi. > > Also, Yaso is a huge admirer of Gen. Dicky Myers and wrote the following "Ode" > to honor the Gen.on his 600th bombing run over North Vietnam, South Vietnam, > Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, Burma, Southern China, Adis Ababa and Watts. > > Following the current list discussion with breathless interest concerning the > poet who in person insists on leading with her hair, I must warn that some of > the language in Yaso's "Ode" could be interpreted as sexist. But there is > reference made to baby killing for comic relief. CP > > Ode (for Dicky Myers) > > By Yaso Adiodi > > Whenever I change a pamper, > I think of my ol' two ramper > With six big cherries loaded on. > > And when I got to rev her > Heaven help them heathin' yaller > Babies up their 'round Haiphong. > > And when I'd nipped and tucked > The slanty little fucks > I called for my cho-wife in Saigon. > > And then I'd strip and beat her, > Shove her face up next might heat her > While she stripped off her stinkin' allied thong. > > Moira Russell wrote: > > > Joanna wrote: > > > > >I first heard about it a few months after Noelle Kocot and I wrote this > > >villanelle poking fun at Lehman. > > > > Well hey, why not share a copy? Does it say anything about HIS hair? Could > > we Photoshop a picture of David Lehman in gun-moll black lingerie? > > > > Moira Russell > > Seattle, WA > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Fri Aug 24 13:38:26 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 10:38:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Freneau! Freneau! Where did our poetry go? Message-ID: <20010824173827.0AC3F36F9@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 24 13:39:12 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 13:39:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Big Hairy? References: <3B868EAF.663C96A9@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3B869140.4BF0F8F@ix.netcom.com> Yaso, means "my heater" not "might heat her." CP "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" wrote: > It must be pointed out that Yaso Adiodi holds a grudge against North Koreans. he > was once tortured by them along with Bon Jovi. > > Also, Yaso is a huge admirer of Gen. Dicky Myers and wrote the following "Ode" > to honor the Gen.on his 600th bombing run over North Vietnam, South Vietnam, > Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, Burma, Southern China, Adis Ababa and Watts. > > Following the current list discussion with breathless interest concerning the > poet who in person insists on leading with her hair, I must warn that some of > the language in Yaso's "Ode" could be interpreted as sexist. But there is > reference made to baby killing for comic relief. CP > > Ode (for Dicky Myers) > > By Yaso Adiodi > > Whenever I change a pamper, > I think of my ol' two ramper > With six big cherries loaded on. > > And when I got to rev her > Heaven help them heathin' yaller > Babies up their 'round Haiphong. > > And when I'd nipped and tucked > The slanty little fucks > I called for my cho-wife in Saigon. > > And then I'd strip and beat her, > Shove her face up next might heat her > While she stripped off her stinkin' allied thong. > > Moira Russell wrote: > > > Joanna wrote: > > > > >I first heard about it a few months after Noelle Kocot and I wrote this > > >villanelle poking fun at Lehman. > > > > Well hey, why not share a copy? Does it say anything about HIS hair? Could > > we Photoshop a picture of David Lehman in gun-moll black lingerie? > > > > Moira Russell > > Seattle, WA > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 24 13:42:38 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 13:42:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Ode To a Load" corrected version as per Yaso's request References: <3B868EAF.663C96A9@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3B86920E.741E5D80@ix.netcom.com> Ode (for Dicky Myers) By Yaso Adiodi Whenever I change a pamper, I think of my ol' two ramper With six big cherries loaded on. And when I got to rev her Heaven help them heathin' yaller Babies up their 'round Haiphong. And when I'd nipped and tucked The commie little fucks I called for my cho-wife in Saigon. And then I'd strip and beat her, Shove her face up next my heater While she stripped off her stinkin' allied thong. "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" wrote: > It must be pointed out that Yaso Adiodi holds a grudge against North Koreans. he > was once tortured by them along with Bon Jovi. > > Also, Yaso is a huge admirer of Gen. Dicky Myers and wrote the following "Ode" > to honor the Gen.on his 600th bombing run over North Vietnam, South Vietnam, > Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, Burma, Southern China, Adis Ababa and Watts. > > Following the current list discussion with breathless interest concerning the > poet who in person insists on leading with her hair, I must warn that some of > the language in Yaso's "Ode" could be interpreted as sexist. But there is > reference made to baby killing for comic relief. CP > > Ode (for Dicky Myers) > > By Yaso Adiodi > > Whenever I change a pamper, > I think of my ol' two ramper > With six big cherries loaded on. > > And when I got to rev her > Heaven help them heathin' yaller > Babies up their 'round Haiphong. > > And when I'd nipped and tucked > The slanty little fucks > I called for my cho-wife in Saigon. > > And then I'd strip and beat her, > Shove her face up next might heat her > While she stripped off her stinkin' allied thong. > > Moira Russell wrote: > > > Joanna wrote: > > > > >I first heard about it a few months after Noelle Kocot and I wrote this > > >villanelle poking fun at Lehman. > > > > Well hey, why not share a copy? Does it say anything about HIS hair? Could > > we Photoshop a picture of David Lehman in gun-moll black lingerie? > > > > Moira Russell > > Seattle, WA > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From moira_russell at hotmail.com Fri Aug 24 13:47:37 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 09:47:37 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Freneau! Freneau! Where did our poetry go? Message-ID: >Does it ever happen when male poets are profiled by female critics? If >not, you could start a trend. Fight sexism with sexism? Bah. Besides, a man's social worth is far far less dependent on how young/thin/weird-looking/big-haired he is (check out Strom Thurmond and his new wife for a stunning example). It doesn't have the same resonance. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From JforJames at aol.com Fri Aug 24 13:50:12 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 13:50:12 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Feeding the Fire by Jeffrey Harrison Message-ID: <17.1a85d2de.28b7edd4@aol.com> I think a few weeks ago Tad Richards brought up the concept of mimetic fallacy. With their easy-going pace & diction, these lines kind of drift as the canoe does. The poem also eases nicely into its conceit of the canoe as milkweed pod. I could've done without that rhetorically pregnant ending of, "to a place where the seeds might sprout;" but as summer lapses away I did enjoy reading this one (below). Finnegan > > Green Canoe > > I don't often get the chance any longer > to go out alone in the green canoe > and, lying in the bottom of the boat, > just drift where the breeze takes me, > down to the other end of the lake > or into some cove without my knowing > because I can't see anything over > the gunwales but sky as I lie there, > feeling the ribs of the boat as my own, > this floating pod with a body inside it... > also a mind, that drifts among clouds > and the sounds that carry over water > a flutter of birdsong, a screen door > slamming shut as well as the usual stuff > that clutters it, but slowed down, opened up, > like the fluff of milkweed tugged > from its husk and floating over the lake, > to be mistaken for mayflies at dusk > by feeding trout, or be carried away > to a place where the seeds might sprout. From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Fri Aug 24 13:57:02 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 10:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Big Hair Message-ID: <20010824175703.06BDE36EE@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From cstroffo at earthlink.net Fri Aug 24 15:17:37 2001 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 12:17:37 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Freneau! Freneau! Where did our poetry go? References: Message-ID: <3B86A850.EC2A2626@earthlink.net> Ah, how to achieve equality between the sexes? Should women be alowed to be as bald and fat and ugly as most men let themselves go....in the name of "inner beauty" or should the femme force men into a new whig-like vanity like the recently deceased Ernie K. Doe...... (who looked pretty damn good in his wig....) now, here's a question central to poetics (and i'm not being 'ironic')..... c Moira Russell wrote: > >sophomoric jabs at Jorie G's *hair* > >written in god-awful doggerel? Spare me. > > //digressive rant mode ON// > > Why is it society seems so concerned with how women poets (hell, women > writers in general) appear? In the quite flattering NYer profile on Graham, > the writer STILL spent at least 2-3 paragraphs on her appearance, long > skirts, long hair, etc., etc., etc. Does this happen when male poets are > profiled? I don't think so. > > //digressive rant mode OFF// > > Moira Russell > Seattle, WA > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From cstroffo at earthlink.net Fri Aug 24 15:22:52 2001 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 12:22:52 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Big Hair References: <5811024.998672707057.JavaMail.imail@puffer> Message-ID: <3B86A98B.E9177C69@earthlink.net> Hey Joanna--- got your call... liked your message to the list of course, maybe had you attacked the "stock market worrying" your work never would have been reviewed in the wall street journal! write back....chris Joanna Fuhrman wrote: > Yeah I'm embarrassed to say I find that sestina amusing despite its sexism. > I first heard about it a few months after Noelle Kocot and I wrote this > villanelle poking fun at Lehman. Looking at his poems now I think ours > doesn't seem all that skillful-satire probably does work better if it's > protected by craft. Anyway, it was written at 2 in the morning which I think > shows, but > > Now reading Lehman's poem, I think maybe ours should have been > harsher-should have complained about all the bland name dropping and stock > market worrying in the Daily Poems or something. > > Oh well > > Joanna > > --- > > The Singing Animal World > > David Lehman you are in the news. > David, go smoke some pot. > David Lehman you love to schmooze. > > David Lehman your noir poems provide the clues > For what you'll have to ask the hossentot. > David Lehman you are in the news > > Spouting your sexy sexy jailbreak criticism poetry muse. > David Lehman you always know which girls are hot. > David Lehman, is this why you love to schmooze? > > Is this anti-De Man stuff just a ruse? > But to lose the art is to lose the master, you sot-- > David Lehman do you even read the news? > > Because if you do, you know we're just trying to be crude > As sexy girls from outer space take a lot > Of time to turn against Da Man, so schmooze, > > Schmooze! We know you feel confused > Among the monochromal caterpillar passageways we forgot > Or didn't really know at all, not from the news > Blasting black and white before our times, before the noisy butterfly > theories eked their ways across the darkened ever-growing poem which is > winter > but at the end of hibernation stretches the big paw of the anti-lion verb > to schmooze. > > _______________________________________________________ > Send a cool gift with your E-Card > http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU Fri Aug 24 16:09:09 2001 From: GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU (Graham, David) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 15:09:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Big Sigh Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDE9E@mail.ripon.edu> In hopes of putting the Big Hair debate rapidly behind us. . . I hereby put on the table for discussion a somewhat lengthy excerpt from the new *American Poetry Review*. In a long review/essay, Tony Hoagland does some deft and provocative summarizing of the state of current American poetics, I think. After this passage, which opens his piece, he reviews books by Lynn Emanuel, Mark Halliday, Forrest Gander, and Susan Mitchell, all of whom strike Hoagland as offering "both beauty and subversion." Personally I have some problems with Hoagland's taxonomy--which tends to ignore more than a little current poetry, I think, between the hyperbolic poles that he defines. But see what you think: __________________ Whatever your level of appreciation for the subversions, deconstructions, revisionings, fractures and spasms of recent American poetics, the "peeling back" and exposure of representation seems one of its primary features. In poems everywhere, one sees the referential dream insistently denied. Here's one sample of what might be called a "self-reflexive text," from the poet Bruce Andrews: Editing is composition lab pleasure this vanishing anticipation of enormous lights what's left to curve thought inflation siren indecency actually precede by brinked out lacking in hinges--I'm ashamed to deny this-- experience isn't always necessary, . . . I Wed this Uncertainty agreeable to be your syllables-- Without trying to parse Andrews's passage, we can note how determinedly the poem reminds the reader of its status as vocabulary. It's not per se a mistrust of *language* that is accountable--after all, thousands of such poems are being written, and read. Rather, perhaps what is being rejected here are the conventions of "wholeness," the claim of some poems to a vision so intact that it transcends textuality. By this aesthetic, to expose the partial is better than to manufacture the allegedly "finished." Thus, fracture and obliquity are among the most popular techniques of current poetry. As the saying goes, "brinked out / lacking in hinges." Whatever the reasons, the new paradigm requires that some dismantling be part of any poetic project. Or, to put it in Marxist terms, the means of production are being insistently brought to the foreground of the consumer's attention. But the desire to dream is an essential part of our appetite for language--the dream of sense, of story, of pretty pictures. And the downside of the contemporary avant-garde often is a loss of simple poetic pleasure. Call it a loss of sensuousness. Experimental poetics seem to require not just theoretical sophistication from its writers and readers, but an unintentional asceticism. When I read an issue of Denver Quarterly, I sometimes feel that I have been served a meal of styrofoam peanuts, a drab, pleasureless repast of poetics rather than poems. It seems all headfood. Take the beginning of "Poise on Row" by Ann Lauterbach: Look laminated / dichotomy / field sutured to field open your mouth an ocean is within chronic diaspora open open tribulations of a say ain't dust star centuries of dew. And were we to annoit these commodious villagers the eagle would be high over the perfect V vintage/voyage hell's mermeronic clip. Obscurity aside (big sigh), the experience of reading this, for me, is just not pleasurable enough to compensate for my effort. Is this my reward for earning my GED? To be stretched on the rack of my inadequacy? It feels like one of those anxiety dreams in which a calculus exam is being administered--in Sumerian. Of course, to the avant-garde, the vast legions of more "mainstream" writers are equally the stuff of comedy--a roomful of stenographic monkeys at typewriter tables, all writing the same poem called "The Death of Grandmother," convinced that it is an expression of their individuality. With their manufacture of chummy intimacy with the reader, their affectations of "sincerity" and "artlessness," these poor dreamers are a bunch of brainwashed factory workers with repetitive motion syndrome. Yet, one wonders, isn't it possible to have both beauty and subversion? To be self-conscious but not anorectically intellectual? To entertain as well as harass the reader? To elicit both dreaming and writing in ways that aren't so specialized, and elitist? In fact, some contemporary poets do complicate the relative roles of the reader and writer while at the same time preserving conventions of representational pleasure. --Tony Hoagland. fr. "The Appetite for Dream." *American Poetry Review*. Sept/Oct 2001: 29. __________________ =================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu =================== From GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU Fri Aug 24 16:17:05 2001 From: GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU (Graham, David) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 15:17:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Even Bigger Sigh Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDE9F@mail.ripon.edu> Typo in the Hoagland quote, I'm sorry to say. Here's the corrected paragraph, which is second from the end: Yet, one wonders, isn't it possible to have both beauty and subversion? To be self-conscious but not anorectically intellectual? To entertain as well as harass the reader? To elicit both dreaming and watching? To problematize the act of reading and writing in ways that aren't so specialized, and elitist? Below is the entire corrected passage. =================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu =================== > ---------- > From: Graham, David > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Friday, August 24, 2001 3:09 PM > To: 'New-Poetry' > Subject: [New-Poetry] Big Sigh > > In hopes of putting the Big Hair debate rapidly behind us. . . I hereby > put > on the table for discussion a somewhat lengthy excerpt from the new > *American Poetry Review*. In a long review/essay, Tony Hoagland does some > deft and provocative summarizing of the state of current American poetics, > I > think. > > After this passage, which opens his piece, he reviews books by Lynn > Emanuel, > Mark Halliday, Forrest Gander, and Susan Mitchell, all of whom strike > Hoagland as offering "both beauty and subversion." > > Personally I have some problems with Hoagland's taxonomy--which tends to > ignore more than a little current poetry, I think, between the hyperbolic > poles that he defines. But see what you think: > > __________________ > Whatever your level of appreciation for the subversions, > deconstructions, revisionings, fractures and spasms of recent American > poetics, the "peeling back" and exposure of representation seems one of > its > primary features. In poems everywhere, one sees the referential dream > insistently denied. Here's one sample of what might be called a > "self-reflexive text," from the poet Bruce Andrews: > > Editing is composition lab pleasure > this vanishing anticipation of enormous lights what's left > to curve thought inflation siren indecency > actually precede by brinked out > lacking in hinges--I'm ashamed to deny this-- > experience isn't always necessary, . . . > I Wed this Uncertainty agreeable to be your syllables-- > > Without trying to parse Andrews's passage, we can note how > determinedly > the poem reminds the reader of its status as vocabulary. It's not per se > a > mistrust of *language* that is accountable--after all, thousands of such > poems are being written, and read. Rather, perhaps what is being rejected > here are the conventions of "wholeness," the claim of some poems to a > vision > so intact that it transcends textuality. By this aesthetic, to expose the > partial is better than to manufacture the allegedly "finished." Thus, > fracture and obliquity are among the most popular techniques of current > poetry. As the saying goes, "brinked out / lacking in hinges." > > Whatever the reasons, the new paradigm requires that some dismantling > be part of any poetic project. Or, to put it in Marxist terms, the means > of > production are being insistently brought to the foreground of the > consumer's > attention. > > But the desire to dream is an essential part of our appetite for > language--the dream of sense, of story, of pretty pictures. And the > downside of the contemporary avant-garde often is a loss of simple poetic > pleasure. Call it a loss of sensuousness. Experimental poetics seem to > require not just theoretical sophistication from its writers and readers, > but an unintentional asceticism. When I read an issue of Denver > Quarterly, > I sometimes feel that I have been served a meal of styrofoam peanuts, a > drab, pleasureless repast of poetics rather than poems. It seems all > headfood. Take the beginning of "Poise on Row" by Ann Lauterbach: > > Look laminated / dichotomy / field > sutured to field > open your mouth an ocean is within > chronic diaspora > open open > tribulations of a say ain't > dust star > centuries of dew. > > And were we to annoit these commodious villagers > the eagle would be > high over the perfect V > vintage/voyage hell's mermeronic clip. > > Obscurity aside (big sigh), the experience of reading this, for me, > is > just not pleasurable enough to compensate for my effort. Is this my > reward > for earning my GED? To be stretched on the rack of my inadequacy? It > feels > like one of those anxiety dreams in which a calculus exam is being > administered--in Sumerian. > > Of course, to the avant-garde, the vast legions of more "mainstream" > writers are equally the stuff of comedy--a roomful of stenographic monkeys > at typewriter tables, all writing the same poem called "The Death of > Grandmother," convinced that it is an expression of their individuality. > With their manufacture of chummy intimacy with the reader, their > affectations of "sincerity" and "artlessness," these poor dreamers are a > bunch of brainwashed factory workers with repetitive motion syndrome. > > Yet, one wonders, isn't it possible to have both beauty and > subversion? To be self-conscious but not anorectically intellectual? To > entertain as well as harass the reader? To elicit both dreaming and > watching? To problematize the act of reading and writing in ways that > aren't so specialized, and elitist? > > > In fact, some contemporary poets do complicate the relative roles of > the reader and writer while at the same time preserving conventions of > representational pleasure. > > --Tony Hoagland. fr. "The Appetite for Dream." *American Poetry Review*. > Sept/Oct 2001: 29. > > __________________ > > =================== > David Graham > grahamd at mail.ripon.edu > =================== > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From languagethief at yahoo.com Fri Aug 24 16:21:05 2001 From: languagethief at yahoo.com (The Old Mole) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 13:21:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dachine Rainer In-Reply-To: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDE9C@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <20010824202105.36789.qmail@web12207.mail.yahoo.com> Help! Can anyone provide me with any -- even brief and sketchy -- biographical information on Dachine Rainer? Tad Richards __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From moira_russell at hotmail.com Fri Aug 24 16:28:43 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 12:28:43 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Big Sigh Message-ID: What an interesting excerpt -- far more interesting than Big Hair, anyway. > But the desire to dream is an essential part of our appetite for >language--the dream of sense, of story, of pretty pictures. And the >downside of the contemporary avant-garde often is a loss of simple poetic >pleasure. Call it a loss of sensuousness. Experimental poetics seem to >require not just theoretical sophistication from its writers and readers, >but an unintentional asceticism. This reminds me of John Gardner's advice that reading fiction is like dreaming awake -- and what spoils the fiction is when the dream is broken (or when that weight of disbelief hits the floor again). >Is this my reward for earning my GED? To be stretched on the rack of my >inadequacy? It feels like one of those anxiety dreams in which a calculus >exam is being administered--in Sumerian. Ha, I wonder if he really does have a GED. I do (I call it the Generic Equivalency Diploma). There seems to be the clash here between highbrow and not -- well, not lowbrow, but someone who is not educated in that particular aesthetic context reading for pleasure (hmm, "lowbrow" is simpler to say). >Yet, one wonders, isn't it possible to have both beauty and subversion? >To be self-conscious but not anorectically intellectual? To entertain as >well as harass the reader? To elicit both dreaming and writing in ways >that aren't so specialized, and elitist? Well, in my opinion formal poetry does this well. There are even formal poets (oops, typed "pets") who play around with the form well enough to subvert it and have something which isn't "typical formalism" but something more interesting (a great example of this, for me, is Sam's sonnet consisting completely of TV listings of Shakespeare plots). I like the tension between the musicality and rhythm of formal poetry and the sense, the challenge between having a formal structure and playing with it, playing within it, playing against it -- what AE Stallings referred to as the "silk-scarf bondage of the sonnet." I know I've probably mentioned her to death here, but I like Molly Peacock as a poet of intense emotion which is contained in disciplined forms -- there's a real opening-up of style, all of a sudden. But, frankly, I think it is a lot easier to more or less toss off some of the poorer examples cited in the excerpt than it is to try to explore the more radical side of formalism. >In fact, some contemporary poets do complicate the relative roles of >the reader and writer while at the same time preserving conventions of >representational pleasure. Does he go on to say which ones? It would be interesting to see who he cites. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From moira_russell at hotmail.com Fri Aug 24 16:31:24 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 12:31:24 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Big Sigh Message-ID: Damn. I forgot to add a possible criticism of this view (not one I would make, but what the hey) would be the implicit idea that poetry, and all other works of art, are representative -- presenting the world in miniature, in realistic, recognized forms, going back to Plato's idea (and why he called Homer the greatest poet: his ability to imitate. Sadly, that was also poetry's downfall, in Plato's view). Someone could probably argue against the representative as being the only way to approach art, but I don't have the theoretical background (or frankly the desire) to attempt it. Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU Fri Aug 24 16:45:52 2001 From: GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU (Graham, David) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 15:45:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] nicely turned metaphor Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDEA0@mail.ripon.edu> Not from a poem, but from the Hoagland essay just posted. This is a pretty good metaphor, I think: "When I read an issue of Denver Quarterly, I sometimes feel that I have been served a meal of styrofoam peanuts, a drab, pleasureless repast of poetics rather than poems." David Graham =================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu =================== > ---------- > From: JforJames at aol.com > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2001 4:19 PM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: [New-Poetry] nicely turned metaphor > > The poem wasn't any great shakes, > but I did like the concluding metaphor. > > > Across the farmlands a few > > of us in a plane are dragging > > a shadow-plane, an anchor > > that will not grab. > > > > William Matthews > > Seen any good ones lately? > Finnegan > From GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU Fri Aug 24 16:52:45 2001 From: GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU (Graham, David) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 15:52:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Big Sigh Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDEA1@mail.ripon.edu> In all the verbiage you probably missed it, Moira, but yes, Hoagland does point to several poets as combining pleasure with postmodern self-reflexiveness. They are Mark Halliday, Lynn Emanuel, Forrest Gander, and Susan Mitchell. As to your point about how formal conventions can insist on their own artifice in a way that is quite different from much postmodern fracturing and subversion, I think you're right on. Annie Finch has a fascinating essay, "Coherent Decentering: Towards A New Model Of The Poetic Self," which takes up some of these matters, by the way. David Graham, whose hair is small (what there is of it) =================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu =================== > >In fact, some contemporary poets do complicate the relative roles of > >the reader and writer while at the same time preserving conventions of > >representational pleasure. > > Does he go on to say which ones? It would be interesting to see who he > cites. > > > From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Aug 24 16:47:09 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 16:47:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Big Sigh References: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDE9E@mail.ripon.edu> Message-ID: <3B86BD4D.2E5E@nut-n-but.net> Thanks for the Tony Hoagland piece, David. Glad to see that the American Poetry Review is finally publishing 1980s criticism of one small segment of 1980s avant-garde poetry. (Note: people against language poetry have been saying what Hoagland says about it for at least two decades, and similarly ignoring the many other schools of innovative poetry that do all kinds of things Hoagland's idea of language poetry doesn't do.) ". . . tends to ignore more than a little current poetry . . . between the hyperbolic poles that he defines," yes. And at and beyond them. --Bob G. From paul.lake at mail.atu.edu Fri Aug 24 05:55:12 2001 From: paul.lake at mail.atu.edu (Paul Lake) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 04:55:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sighs Message-ID: "Yet, one wonders, isn't it possible to have both beauty and subversion? To be self-conscious but not anorectically intellectual? To entertain as well as harass the reader? To elicit both dreaming and watching? To problematize the act of reading and writing in ways that aren't so specialized, and elitist?" Sure, and while we're at it let's also problematize the following: Breathing Eating Love Making Architecture Engineering Proof reading Base ball Computer manufacturing Software designing I'd love to drive across a problematized bridge to get back to my problematized house and eat some problematized meals, so I can read some problematized poems. Because why should anything feel good, fit my human capacities, or be safe when it can malfunction, frustrate me, and even kill me? Let's problematize everything, including the internet and APR so Haogland's essay can be as problematized as the beautiful, subversive poetry he admires. And don?t forget to send him his problematized check. Paul Lake From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Fri Aug 24 17:30:05 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 14:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Big Sigh Message-ID: <20010824213005.98E512755@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Fri Aug 24 17:38:58 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 14:38:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] nicely turned metaphor Message-ID: <20010824213858.A6D2536F9@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From JoFuhrman at excite.com Fri Aug 24 17:52:21 2001 From: JoFuhrman at excite.com (Joanna Fuhrman) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 14:52:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Big Sigh Message-ID: <13848436.998689941699.JavaMail.imail@puffer> (Note: people > against language poetry have been saying what Hoagland says about > it for at least two decades, and similarly ignoring the many > other schools of innovative poetry that do all kinds of things > Hoagland's idea of language poetry doesn't do.) > Thanks Bob, I think this is a really good point-- who would be your examples? I guess Hoagland might say Gander is an example of this, no? or the new Mitchel which is pretty strange and playful...I just think it's hard for some "avanter" poets to read work seriously if they see it has a "mainstream" press... Also(Maybe you could say that Halliday is innovative in a way that at his best he's kind of bad which I admire--I mean he's willing to be adolescent and clumsy in kind of a fresh way) But yeah I guess it would have been nice if Hoagland wrote about people who came out of "the avant-guarde" too-- whatever that term means-- I do want to know who people on this list might people name as interesting non-language "innovative" writers? (I mean I tend to call anyone interesting "innovative"-- even if their poems look "mainstream" on the surface-- or in their distrubution.)But that's not what I mean here. best, Joanna ______________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________________ Send a cool gift with your E-Card http://www.bluemountain.com/giftcenter/ From moira_russell at hotmail.com Fri Aug 24 18:18:31 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 14:18:31 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Big Sigh Message-ID: >In all the verbiage you probably missed it, Moira, but yes, Hoagland does >point to several poets as combining pleasure with postmodern >self-reflexiveness. They are Mark Halliday, Lynn Emanuel, Forrest Gander, >and Susan Mitchell. Oh yeah, I think you pointed that out at the opening. Oops. >As to your point about how formal conventions can insist on their own >artifice in a way that is quite different from much postmodern fracturing >and subversion, I think you're right on. Annie Finch has a fascinating >essay, "Coherent Decentering: Towards A New Model Of The Poetic Self," >which takes up some of these matters, by the way. Oh, that sounds good. What book/magazine is that in? Does she have a collection of essays? Moira _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Aug 24 18:55:07 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 18:55:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Big Sigh References: <13848436.998689941699.JavaMail.imail@puffer> Message-ID: <3B86DB4B.B98@nut-n-but.net> Thanks for the response, Joanna, to my: > > (Note: people > > against language poetry have been saying what Hoagland says about > > it for at least two decades, and similarly ignoring the many > > other schools of innovative poetry that do all kinds of things > > Hoagland's idea of language poetry doesn't do.) > . . . who would be your examples? I don't want to return to our old what's innovative debate, so I'll just say (as I've too often said before) that there are whole schools of poets ignored by people like Hoagland that are doing good work of a kind not yet widely anthologized or taught: visual poetry, sound poetry, performance poetry, mathematical poetry, infraverbal poetry (which I consider a kind of language poetry but which is generally highly lyrical and not in high repute with the poets considered the major stars of language poetry). I've listed many of the poets involved in these schools before. Few of them seem known to others at New-Poetry: Karl Kempton, Karl Young, Marilyn Rosenberg, Kathy Ernst, Bill Keith, many many others for visual poetry; Michael Basinski for performance poetry (a school I don't know much about but assume is up there with visual poetry, as is sound poetry, another school I don't know as much as I should about); Scott Helmes in math poetry, which is my own forte as a poet, too; G. Huth, Jonathan Brannen, Richard Kostelanetz for infraverbal poetry. Many others, and most of the ones named have done good work in many or all of the schools I've named. Then there are the many poets Mark Wallace wrote a good essay about five or more years ago who are trying, if I understand him right, to combine language poetry techniques with lyricism and even interest in the self and everyday life. He, incidentally, was responding to criticism of language poetry like Hoagland's, which was old by his time. > I guess Hoagland might say Gander is an example of this, no? or > the new Mitchel which is pretty strange and playful...I just think > it's hard for some "avanter" poets to read work seriously if they > see it has a "mainstream" press... Also (Maybe you could say that > Halliday is innovative in a way that at his best he's kind of bad > which I admire--I mean he's willing to be adolescent and clumsy in > kind of a fresh way) > But yeah I guess it would have been nice if Hoagland wrote about > people who came out of "the avant-guarde" too-- whatever that > term means-- I'm not so concerned with "out of the avant-garders"; I just wish people like Hoagland didn't presume that language poetry and Iowa School Poetry were the only poetries around--except maybe for a few favored poets they think are rsing above one or the other of those two schools, but don't seem to be significantly doing so to me. > I do want to know who people on this list might people name as > interesting non-language "innovative" writers? (I mean I tend > to call anyone interesting "innovative"-- even if their poems > look "mainstream" on the surface-- or in their distribution.) > But that's not what I mean here. Well, what I've been asking for in vain for a long time is simply a list of all the kinds of poetry written nowadays--so that omissions of whole schools in essays like Hoagland's, and in classes and/or anthologies supposedly surveying "contemporary American Poetry," and in would immediately be obvious. --Bob G. From msnider at mindspring.com Fri Aug 24 19:11:05 2001 From: msnider at mindspring.com (Michael Snider) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 19:11:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Big Sigh In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200108242314.TAA01120@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> On Friday, August 24, 2001, at 06:18 PM, Moira Russell wrote: > Oh, that sounds good. What book/magazine is that in? Does she have a > collection of essays? > You may know these already -- Besides her poetry (Eve, Catching the Mermother, and The Encyclopedia of Scotland), Annie Finch has written The Ghost of Meter: Culture and Prosody in American Free Verse, and edited A Formal Felling Comes: Poems in Form by Contemporary Women. There's an essay of hers in David Baker (ed) Meter in English: A Critical Engagement -- "Metrical Diversity: A Defense of the Non-Iambic Meters." There's certainly more -- her web page is http://www.muohio.edu/~finchar/ From msnider at mindspring.com Fri Aug 24 19:13:43 2001 From: msnider at mindspring.com (Michael Snider) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 19:13:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Big Sigh In-Reply-To: <200108242314.TAA01120@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <200108242317.TAA14332@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> That's A Formal Feeling, not Felling On Friday, August 24, 2001, at 07:11 PM, Michael Snider wrote: > > On Friday, August 24, 2001, at 06:18 PM, Moira Russell wrote: > >> Oh, that sounds good. What book/magazine is that in? Does she have a >> collection of essays? >> > > You may know these already -- > Besides her poetry (Eve, Catching the Mermother, and The Encyclopedia > of Scotland), Annie Finch has written The Ghost of Meter: Culture and > Prosody in American Free Verse, and edited A Formal Felling Comes: > Poems in Form by Contemporary Women. > > There's an essay of hers in David Baker (ed) Meter in English: A > Critical Engagement -- "Metrical Diversity: A Defense of the Non-Iambic > Meters." > > There's certainly more -- her web page is > http://www.muohio.edu/~finchar/ > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From moira_russell at hotmail.com Fri Aug 24 19:42:49 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 15:42:49 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Big Sigh Message-ID: >Well, what I've been asking for in vain for a long time is simply >a list of all the kinds of poetry written nowadays--so that omissions >of whole schools in essays like Hoagland's, and in classes and/or >anthologies supposedly surveying "contemporary American Poetry," and >in would immediately be obvious. Bob, if this is what you have been desiring so urgently for so long, why not try to attempt a start on it yourself? (I don't mean to be sarcastic or facetious here.) In the spirit of Samuel R. Delany -- "I write books I really want to read and can't find anywhere." If you think this taxonomy would be so valuable, why not supply it? Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From moira_russell at hotmail.com Fri Aug 24 19:48:13 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 15:48:13 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad Poetry Generator Message-ID: The Bad Poetry Generator is making the rounds on another (non-poetry) list I belong to. http://www.pangloss.com/seidel/Poem/index.html Moira Russell Seattle, WA _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From wasanthony at yahoo.com Fri Aug 24 21:16:23 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 18:16:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Big Sigh In-Reply-To: <200108242314.TAA01120@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: <20010825011623.2729.qmail@web12103.mail.yahoo.com> --- Michael Snider wrote: > > On Friday, August 24, 2001, at 06:18 PM, Moira Russell wrote: > > > Oh, that sounds good. What book/magazine is that in? Does she > have a > > collection of essays? > > > > You may know these already -- > Besides her poetry (Eve, Catching the Mermother, and The > Encyclopedia > of Scotland), Annie Finch has written The Ghost of Meter: Culture and > > Prosody in American Free Verse, and edited A Formal Felling Comes: > Poems > in Form by Contemporary Women. A typo, I hope, worthy of deep psychoanalysis. - Jim, suddenly entranced by the idea of a formal felling (multi-gender, of course). ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From wasanthony at yahoo.com Fri Aug 24 21:18:31 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 18:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Big Sigh In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010825011831.31730.qmail@web12102.mail.yahoo.com> --- Moira Russell wrote: > > >Well, what I've been asking for in vain for a long time is simply > >a list of all the kinds of poetry written nowadays--so that > omissions > >of whole schools in essays like Hoagland's, and in classes and/or > >anthologies supposedly surveying "contemporary American Poetry," and > >in would immediately be obvious. > > Bob, if this is what you have been desiring so urgently for so long, > why not > try to attempt a start on it yourself? (I don't mean to be sarcastic > or > facetious here.) In the spirit of Samuel R. Delany -- "I write books > I > really want to read and can't find anywhere." Hooray! A Delany fan? _Stars In My Pockets Like Grains of Sand_ is, I think, a masterpiece. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From wasanthony at yahoo.com Fri Aug 24 21:25:40 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 18:25:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Bad Poetry Generator In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010825012540.99468.qmail@web12107.mail.yahoo.com> --- Moira Russell wrote: > The Bad Poetry Generator is making the rounds on another (non-poetry) > list I > belong to. > > http://www.pangloss.com/seidel/Poem/index.html > zzzzzzz ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Aug 24 22:06:58 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 22:06:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Big Sigh References: Message-ID: <3B870842.3A2A@nut-n-but.net> > >Well, what I've been asking for in vain for a long time is simply > >a list of all the kinds of poetry written nowadays--so that omissions > >of whole schools in essays like Hoagland's, and in classes and/or > >anthologies supposedly surveying "contemporary American Poetry," and > >in would immediately be obvious. > > Bob, if this is what you have been desiring so urgently for > so long, why not try to attempt a start on it yourself? > (I don't mean to be sarcastic or facetious here.) In > the spirit of Samuel R. Delany -- "I write books I > really want to read and can't find anywhere." > If you think this taxonomy would be so valuable, > why not supply it? What I want is a typology, not a taxonomy, Moira (i.e., an unsystematic list of poetry schools). And I have started such a thing, first as an editorial published several years ago in Small Press Review, then in two or three versions at the Buffalo poetry discussion site; one of the versions was reprinted at poetry.about.com. (I tried several times this evening to get out to it, but kept getting kicked off the internet, so quit trying.) I really thought people would jump in and suggest schools I had missed, but few did. Found poetry was one. I got a suggestion of two for improving definitions of schools that I accepted, too. But that was it. Tomorrow, if finding it at Poetry.About.Com seems too hard, I'll try to find a copy and post it here. It's not too long. --Bob G. From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Aug 25 05:25:03 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 05:25:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry References: Message-ID: <3B876EEF.DA1@nut-n-but.net> My essay on schools of poetry is at: http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/compfour/schls.html But I don't mind quoting it here: An Attempt at a List of Current Schools of Poetry Since it's my view that the academic and commercial establishments are completely ignoring large segments of first-rate contemporary poetry, I've always felt that a list of currently active poetry schools would be of great value. Hence, this attempt at one. My hope is that others will augment and adjust it, and that we can arrive at some kind of intelligent, non-hierarchical, informal Master-List that just about everyone agrees covers the field. This isn't my first such list. A few years ago I had one in Small Press Review as a guest editorial. Alas, it generated next to no interest, only two people writing me about it. Too many poets and poetry-readers have a prejudice against pigeon-holing. I didn't give up, though, but later I posted a version of my list at the Internet poetics discussion group hosted by SUNY, Buffalo, and did better, getting several quite helpful responses--enough to convince me it'd be worthwhile to carry on here. Once the list seems set, I will put a summary of it in the dictionary which is the central goal of Comprepoetica, as well as individual entries on most, or all, the schools we come up with. Then who knows what might happen? Perhaps even the publication at last of a truly catholic anthology of current American poetry! In any event, here's my list: MAINSTREAM POETRY What's in all the standard anthologies; Vendler-certified; many sub-schools, some of which are: Iowa-Workshop Poetry (e.g., Bell) Surrealist Poetry (e.g., Bly) Ecological Poetry (e.g., Snyder) Jump-Cut Poetry (e.g., Ashbery) EASY-STREAM POETRY A variety of poetry that, based on its popularity, ought to be mainstream but is shut out of the major anthologies because academics look down on it. Light Verse Haiku LANGUAGE POETRY The poetry in *In the American Tree*, the Messerli anthology, etc.; Perloff-certified; several sub-schools that I lack the knowledge to untangle CONTRA-GENTEEL POETRY All the 'unrefined" plain-writing poets inspired by W.C. Williams, Frank O'Hara, the Beats, Bukowski. (Note: I include the social identity poets in this school--but, of course, many poets, particularly the social identity, are in more than one group--Maya Angelou, for instance, seems to me at times Mainstream, and at times Contra-Genteel.) The main sub-schools I know of are: Conversationalist Poetry (e.g., the many followers of Frank O'Hara) Beat Poetry (e.g., Gregory Corso, the many followers of Charles Bukowski), with several sub-divisions Social Identity Poetry (e.g., Wanda Coleman, Vietnam War poetry, all forms of "ethnic poetry") Pop-Rhyme, which sudivides into Rap and the Neo-James- Whitcomb-Reilly School (yes, I need a less condescending name for this group--and probably for the Iowa-Workshop school) Wild-Woman Poetry (e.g., Cheryl Townsend--and, yes, this one could use a better name, too) NEOFORMALIST POETRY Poetry continuing the techniques of traditional English poetry, especially meter. PLURAESTHETIC POETRY Any poetry that mixes expressive modalities: Visual Poetry (e.g., Karl Kempton) Sound Poetry (e.g., Steve McCaffery), also with three major and many smaller sub-divisions Performance Poetry (e.g., Jack Foley) Mathematical Poetry (e.g., LeRoy Gorman) Flow-Chart Poetry (I've seen some but don't remember the name of anyone who does it) Compucentric Poetry, or poetry using computer language (e.g., Alan Sondheim) Polylingual Poetry (e.g., John M. Bennett, Susan Smith Nash, Sheila Murphy) INFRAVERBAL POETRY Poetry whose focus is on textual elements smaller than words-- letters and punctuation marks, for the most part. Taxonomically, I consider this school a sub-group of Language Poetry, but it seems sufficiently off on its own to rank as a separate school for the purposes of this list (which is not intended as a formal taxonomy); James Joyce and Lewis Carroll are infraverbal poetry's chief forebears--and E. E. Cummings, whom I've come to consider more an infraverbal than a visual poet. HYPERTEXTUAL POETRY I know almost nothing about this. It might just be pluraesthetic poetry in a new medium. There they are, the eight main schools of poetry I'm aware of (or remember). Any additions, corrections, comments, would be greatly appreciated. Bob Grumman From languagethief at yahoo.com Sat Aug 25 09:00:31 2001 From: languagethief at yahoo.com (The Old Mole) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 06:00:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry In-Reply-To: <3B876EEF.DA1@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <20010825130031.14884.qmail@web12205.mail.yahoo.com> Good job, Bob. I've read -- and used in class -- Bob Grumman's essay on language poetry, which is really excellent and thought-;provoking. Tad Richards --- Bob Grumman wrote: > My essay on schools of poetry is at: > > > http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/compfour/schls.html > > But I don't mind quoting it here: > > An Attempt at a List of Current Schools > of Poetry > > > Since it's my view that the academic and > commercial establishments > are completely ignoring large segments of first-rate > contemporary > poetry, I've always felt that a list of currently > active poetry > schools would be of great value. Hence, this attempt > at one. My > hope is that others will augment and adjust it, and > that we can > arrive at some kind of intelligent, > non-hierarchical, informal > Master-List that just about everyone agrees covers > the field. > > This isn't my first such list. A few years ago I had > one in Small Press > Review as a guest editorial. Alas, it generated > next to no interest, > only two people writing me about it. Too many poets > and poetry-readers > have a prejudice against pigeon-holing. I didn't > give up, though, but > later I posted a version of my list at the Internet > poetics discussion > group hosted by SUNY, Buffalo, and did better, > getting several quite > helpful responses--enough to convince me it'd be > worthwhile to carry on > here. > > Once the list seems set, I will put a summary of it > in the dictionary > which is the central goal of Comprepoetica, as well > as individual > entries on most, or all, the schools we come up > with. Then who knows > what might happen? Perhaps even the publication at > last of a truly > catholic anthology of current American poetry! In > any event, here's my > list: > > MAINSTREAM POETRY > > What's in all the standard anthologies; > Vendler-certified; many > sub-schools, some of which are: > > Iowa-Workshop Poetry (e.g., Bell) > > Surrealist Poetry (e.g., Bly) > > Ecological Poetry (e.g., Snyder) > > Jump-Cut Poetry (e.g., Ashbery) > > EASY-STREAM POETRY > > A variety of poetry that, based on its > popularity, ought to be > mainstream but is shut out of the major anthologies > because academics > look down on it. > > Light Verse > > Haiku > > LANGUAGE POETRY > > The poetry in *In the American Tree*, the > Messerli anthology, etc.; > Perloff-certified; several sub-schools that I lack > the knowledge to > untangle > > CONTRA-GENTEEL POETRY > > All the 'unrefined" plain-writing poets > inspired by W.C. Williams, > Frank O'Hara, the Beats, Bukowski. (Note: I include > the social identity > poets in this school--but, of course, many poets, > particularly the > social identity, are in more than one group--Maya > Angelou, for instance, > seems to me at times Mainstream, and at times > Contra-Genteel.) The main > sub-schools I know of are: > > Conversationalist Poetry (e.g., the many > followers of Frank > O'Hara) > > Beat Poetry (e.g., Gregory Corso, the many > followers of Charles > Bukowski), with several sub-divisions > > Social Identity Poetry (e.g., Wanda Coleman, > Vietnam War poetry, > all forms of "ethnic poetry") > > Pop-Rhyme, which sudivides into Rap and the > Neo-James- > Whitcomb-Reilly School (yes, I need a less > condescending name for this > group--and probably for the Iowa-Workshop school) > > Wild-Woman Poetry (e.g., Cheryl > Townsend--and, yes, this one > could use a better name, too) > > NEOFORMALIST POETRY > > Poetry continuing the techniques of traditional > English poetry, > especially meter. > > PLURAESTHETIC POETRY > > Any poetry that mixes expressive modalities: > > Visual Poetry (e.g., Karl Kempton) > > Sound Poetry (e.g., Steve McCaffery), also > with three major and > many smaller sub-divisions > > Performance Poetry (e.g., Jack Foley) > > Mathematical Poetry (e.g., LeRoy Gorman) > > Flow-Chart Poetry (I've seen some but don't > remember the name of > anyone who does it) > > Compucentric Poetry, or poetry using computer > language (e.g., > Alan Sondheim) > > Polylingual Poetry (e.g., John M. Bennett, > Susan Smith Nash, > Sheila Murphy) > > INFRAVERBAL POETRY > > Poetry whose focus is on textual elements > smaller than words-- > letters and punctuation marks, for the most part. > Taxonomically, I > consider this school a sub-group of Language Poetry, > but it seems > sufficiently off on its own to rank as a separate > school for the > purposes of this list (which is not intended as a > formal taxonomy); > James Joyce and Lewis Carroll are infraverbal > poetry's chief > forebears--and E. E. Cummings, whom I've come to > consider more an > infraverbal than a visual poet. > > HYPERTEXTUAL POETRY > > I know almost nothing about this. It might just > be pluraesthetic > poetry in a new medium. > > There they are, the eight main schools of > poetry I'm aware of (or > remember). Any additions, corrections, comments, > would be greatly > appreciated. > > > > Bob Grumman > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Aug 25 10:27:12 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 10:27:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry In-Reply-To: <3B876EEF.DA1@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: > Too many poets and poetry-readers > have a prejudice against pigeon-holing. These include me, Bob, but I'll at least skim some attempt to convert me. Hal No animal has been injured, killed, or abused in the making of this message. Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Aug 25 12:05:20 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 12:05:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry References: <20010825130031.14884.qmail@web12205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3B87CCBF.3EB2@nut-n-but.net> Gah, taught in a class! I'll never live it down, Tad! (But thanks!) --Bob G. > > Good job, Bob. > > I've read -- and used in class -- Bob Grumman's essay > on language poetry, which is really excellent and > thought-provoking. > > Tad Richards From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Aug 25 12:28:00 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 12:28:00 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry References: Message-ID: <3B87D20F.510F@nut-n-but.net> > > Too many poets and poetry-readers > > have a prejudice against pigeon-holing. > > These include me, Bob, but I'll at least skim > some attempt to convert me. Halvard Johnson I think the big problem arises when a critic tries, as too often happens, to shove a given poet into one narrow pigeon-hole instead of the several most poets are in. Misclassifying a poet will always be common, too--but misuse of pigeon-holing is only one of many forms of misrepresentation, and I say, better to be misrepresented than ignored. And better to be misrepresented as being in a school one is not, which it should be easy objectively to demonstrate, than misrepresented less clearly, which is the usual case. I would add, now that I think about it, that pigeon-holing is unavoidable--for instance, critics often write about Poet A that Poet A's work is like, say, Jane Blow's. All that is, is classifying a poet nebulously. I say, if we're going to classify, why not do it right? Anyway, I still see no better way to work out what kinds of poetries are extant than a list like mine, and think it important that we know what kinds of poetries ARE out there. So I welcome most any complaint of my missing some school or other, or not satisfactorily defining or naming one. This list is definitely provisional! --Bob G. From cstroffo at earthlink.net Sat Aug 25 18:10:36 2001 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 15:10:36 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry References: <3B876EEF.DA1@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <3B88225B.B4699FD5@earthlink.net> Hey Bob, yeah, whatever happened to Susan Smith Nash? she used to be very active, then.... not a peep in years.... chris Bob Grumman wrote: > My essay on schools of poetry is at: > > http://www.geocities.com/comprepoetica/compfour/schls.html > > But I don't mind quoting it here: > > An Attempt at a List of Current Schools of Poetry > > Since it's my view that the academic and commercial establishments > are completely ignoring large segments of first-rate contemporary > poetry, I've always felt that a list of currently active poetry > schools would be of great value. Hence, this attempt at one. My > hope is that others will augment and adjust it, and that we can > arrive at some kind of intelligent, non-hierarchical, informal > Master-List that just about everyone agrees covers the field. > > This isn't my first such list. A few years ago I had one in Small Press > Review as a guest editorial. Alas, it generated next to no interest, > only two people writing me about it. Too many poets and poetry-readers > have a prejudice against pigeon-holing. I didn't give up, though, but > later I posted a version of my list at the Internet poetics discussion > group hosted by SUNY, Buffalo, and did better, getting several quite > helpful responses--enough to convince me it'd be worthwhile to carry on > here. > > Once the list seems set, I will put a summary of it in the dictionary > which is the central goal of Comprepoetica, as well as individual > entries on most, or all, the schools we come up with. Then who knows > what might happen? Perhaps even the publication at last of a truly > catholic anthology of current American poetry! In any event, here's my > list: > > MAINSTREAM POETRY > > What's in all the standard anthologies; Vendler-certified; many > sub-schools, some of which are: > > Iowa-Workshop Poetry (e.g., Bell) > > Surrealist Poetry (e.g., Bly) > > Ecological Poetry (e.g., Snyder) > > Jump-Cut Poetry (e.g., Ashbery) > > EASY-STREAM POETRY > > A variety of poetry that, based on its popularity, ought to be > mainstream but is shut out of the major anthologies because academics > look down on it. > > Light Verse > > Haiku > > LANGUAGE POETRY > > The poetry in *In the American Tree*, the Messerli anthology, etc.; > Perloff-certified; several sub-schools that I lack the knowledge to > untangle > > CONTRA-GENTEEL POETRY > > All the 'unrefined" plain-writing poets inspired by W.C. Williams, > Frank O'Hara, the Beats, Bukowski. (Note: I include the social identity > poets in this school--but, of course, many poets, particularly the > social identity, are in more than one group--Maya Angelou, for instance, > seems to me at times Mainstream, and at times Contra-Genteel.) The main > sub-schools I know of are: > > Conversationalist Poetry (e.g., the many followers of Frank > O'Hara) > > Beat Poetry (e.g., Gregory Corso, the many followers of Charles > Bukowski), with several sub-divisions > > Social Identity Poetry (e.g., Wanda Coleman, Vietnam War poetry, > all forms of "ethnic poetry") > > Pop-Rhyme, which sudivides into Rap and the Neo-James- > Whitcomb-Reilly School (yes, I need a less condescending name for this > group--and probably for the Iowa-Workshop school) > > Wild-Woman Poetry (e.g., Cheryl Townsend--and, yes, this one > could use a better name, too) > > NEOFORMALIST POETRY > > Poetry continuing the techniques of traditional English poetry, > especially meter. > > PLURAESTHETIC POETRY > > Any poetry that mixes expressive modalities: > > Visual Poetry (e.g., Karl Kempton) > > Sound Poetry (e.g., Steve McCaffery), also with three major and > many smaller sub-divisions > > Performance Poetry (e.g., Jack Foley) > > Mathematical Poetry (e.g., LeRoy Gorman) > > Flow-Chart Poetry (I've seen some but don't remember the name of > anyone who does it) > > Compucentric Poetry, or poetry using computer language (e.g., > Alan Sondheim) > > Polylingual Poetry (e.g., John M. Bennett, Susan Smith Nash, > Sheila Murphy) > > INFRAVERBAL POETRY > > Poetry whose focus is on textual elements smaller than words-- > letters and punctuation marks, for the most part. Taxonomically, I > consider this school a sub-group of Language Poetry, but it seems > sufficiently off on its own to rank as a separate school for the > purposes of this list (which is not intended as a formal taxonomy); > James Joyce and Lewis Carroll are infraverbal poetry's chief > forebears--and E. E. Cummings, whom I've come to consider more an > infraverbal than a visual poet. > > HYPERTEXTUAL POETRY > > I know almost nothing about this. It might just be pluraesthetic > poetry in a new medium. > > There they are, the eight main schools of poetry I'm aware of (or > remember). Any additions, corrections, comments, would be greatly > appreciated. > > Bob Grumman > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Aug 25 18:27:37 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 18:27:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry References: <3B876EEF.DA1@nut-n-but.net> <3B88225B.B4699FD5@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3B882659.7FD4@nut-n-but.net> Not sure what happened to Susan. I heard she was about to marry, then nothing . . . --Bob G. Chris wrote: > > Hey Bob, yeah, whatever happened to Susan Smith Nash? > she used to be very active, then.... > not a peep in years.... > > chris From bardo at optonline.net Sat Aug 25 19:16:23 2001 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 19:16:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry References: <3B876EEF.DA1@nut-n-but.net> <3B88225B.B4699FD5@earthlink.net> <3B882659.7FD4@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <001e01c12dbb$f56ed420$ef7dbd18@win98> See http://www.occe.ou.edu/nash/nashcv/ ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2001 6:27 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry > Not sure what happened to Susan. I heard she was about to marry, > then nothing . . . > > --B ob G. > Chris wrote: > > > > Hey Bob, yeah, whatever happened to Susan Smith Nash? > > she used to be very active, then.... > > not a peep in years.... > > > > chris > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From languagethief at yahoo.com Sat Aug 25 21:25:27 2001 From: languagethief at yahoo.com (The Old Mole) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 18:25:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] TV Guide In-Reply-To: <13848436.998689941699.JavaMail.imail@puffer> Message-ID: <20010826012527.63064.qmail@web12205.mail.yahoo.com> I should have posted this before, but so busy the past few days. I'm one of the organizers of the Woodstock Poetry Festival, going on this weekend (Dunn/Creeley/Bly/Collins/Goedicke/Sanders/Vega etc), and tomorrow morning (Sunday) I may be on TV. The Sunday Today show is planning to cover the morning event, which I'm hosting -- a celebration of Woodstock poets past in the Artist's Cemetery. Tad Richards __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From adead_poet at hotmail.com Sat Aug 25 22:31:50 2001 From: adead_poet at hotmail.com (dead poet) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 21:31:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Big Sigh Message-ID: where would i go to learn more about these types of poetry. i admit that i know little or nothing about visual,sound, mathematical, and intraverbal poetry. so is there a place on the internet where i could learn more about these not mainstream types of poetry. jason >I don't want to return to our old what's innovative debate, so I'll >just say (as I've too often said before) that there are whole schools >of poets ignored by people like Hoagland that are doing good work of >a kind not yet widely anthologized or taught: visual poetry, sound >poetry, performance poetry, mathematical poetry, infraverbal poetry >(which I consider a kind of language poetry but which is generally >highly lyrical and not in high repute with the poets considered the >major stars of language poetry _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From halvard at earthlink.net Sat Aug 25 22:28:37 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 22:28:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry In-Reply-To: <3B87D20F.510F@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: By and large, what you say is reasonable enough, Bob, but the bigger problem arises when the poet takes the pigeon-holing as having some sort of meaning or necessity. Hal > I think the big problem arises when a critic tries, as too often > happens, to shove a given poet into one narrow pigeon-hole instead of > the several most poets are in. Misclassifying a poet will always be > common, too--but misuse of pigeon-holing is only one of many forms > of misrepresentation, and I say, better to be misrepresented than > ignored. And better to be misrepresented as being in a school one > is not, which it should be easy objectively to demonstrate, than > misrepresented less clearly, which is the usual case. > > I would add, now that I think about it, that pigeon-holing is > unavoidable--for instance, critics often write about Poet A that > Poet A's work is like, say, Jane Blow's. All that is, is > classifying a poet nebulously. I say, if we're going to classify, > why not do it right? > > Anyway, I still see no better way to work out what kinds of poetries > are extant than a list like mine, and think it important that we > know what kinds of poetries ARE out there. So I welcome most any > complaint of my missing some school or other, or not satisfactorily > defining or naming one. This list is definitely provisional! > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Aug 26 06:46:36 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 06:46:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry References: Message-ID: <3B88D38C.19FD@nut-n-but.net> Halvard Johnson wrote: > > By and large, what you say is reasonable enough, Bob, but the > bigger problem arises when the poet takes the pigeon-holing > as having some sort of meaning or necessity. Well, Hal, I'd agree if you mean by "some sort of PRESCRIPTIVE AND/OR STATOOZNIKAL meaning or necessity." That is, some poets are stupid enough to think that they must fit their poems into some high-rating pigeon-hole to gain status. This is the fault of the poets, not of pigeon-holing. To imply, however, that pigeon-holing has no "meaning or necessity" is daft since the function of language is to pigeon hole. --Bob G. From languagethief at yahoo.com Sun Aug 26 08:44:51 2001 From: languagethief at yahoo.com (The Old Mole) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 05:44:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] TV Guide In-Reply-To: <20010826012527.63064.qmail@web12205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20010826124451.42210.qmail@web12204.mail.yahoo.com> It occurs to me that they have to be taping this, not doing it live, becuase it doesn't start till eleven a.m. I'll find out what their plans are for it. --- The Old Mole wrote: > I should have posted this before, but so busy the > past > few days. I'm one of the organizers of the Woodstock > Poetry Festival, going on this weekend > (Dunn/Creeley/Bly/Collins/Goedicke/Sanders/Vega > etc), > and tomorrow morning (Sunday) I may be on TV. The > Sunday Today show is planning to cover the morning > event, which I'm hosting -- a celebration of > Woodstock > poets past in the Artist's Cemetery. > > > Tad Richards > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute > with Yahoo! Messenger > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Aug 26 09:45:50 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 09:45:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry In-Reply-To: <3B88D38C.19FD@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: > To imply, however, that > pigeon-holing has no "meaning or necessity" is daft since the > function of language is to pigeon hole. > > --Bob G. I'd say that's *one* function of language, Bob, not *the* function. Another of language's many functions is to free us from the pigeon hole. Hal "Flotsam, please, and a side order of jetsam." Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Sun Aug 26 09:59:12 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 06:59:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry Message-ID: <20010826135912.54F1A36F9@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From duemer at clarkson.edu Sun Aug 26 10:02:04 2001 From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 10:02:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry References: <3B88D38C.19FD@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <004601c12e37$afda8fe0$18724342@twcny.rr.com> Bob Grumman writes: <> I'm not entirely sure what the "function of language" is, but I'm pretty sure it's NOT to "pigeon hole." And as for schools of poetry, the problem with such pigeon holes is how much they fail to describe. To take only one example, the subgroup under "Mainstream," Bob's list says: "Iowa Workshop poetry (e.g. Bell)," and while I realize this is only a gesture toward definition, it leaves out both the multiplicity of personalities who have shaped the Iowa program & the changes over time. Marvin Bell hasn't had any serious influence on workshop direction since the advent of Jorie Graham. And historically, it was Don Justice who shaped the aesthetic of the workshop in its 1970s heyday. And by the way, how does the fact that Justice, one of the most elegant poets around, had a high appreciation for the "contra-genteel" poetry of WCW, as well as for the verbal pyrotechnics of Berryman--& imparted these values to many of his students? jd ====================== Joseph Duemer School of Liberal Arts, 5750 Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699 315.268.3967 ====================== From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu Sun Aug 26 10:34:44 2001 From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Prentiss, Amber) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 10:34:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry Message-ID: What, poets can't have serious self-image problems? Everyone else in the world (with the exception of sociopaths) cares what people think of them, even and especially when it has nothing to do with their self-perception. The poet's allowed to be as flimsy and shallow as the rest of us, and the poet often is. Anyway, all this classifying has the tendency to make the poetry world look like high school (not that I necessarily disagree with that perception.) In this corner, we have the blue jeans and bleached teeth bunch, and in the other corner, we have the 100-hole Doc Martens and morbidly pale bunch! Who shall get the blessing of the ranting crowd? Fight fight fight! -Amber, feeling silly. -----Original Message----- From: Halvard Johnson To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 8/25/2001 10:28 PM Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry By and large, what you say is reasonable enough, Bob, but the bigger problem arises when the poet takes the pigeon-holing as having some sort of meaning or necessity. Hal > I think the big problem arises when a critic tries, as too often > happens, to shove a given poet into one narrow pigeon-hole instead of > the several most poets are in. Misclassifying a poet will always be > common, too--but misuse of pigeon-holing is only one of many forms > of misrepresentation, and I say, better to be misrepresented than > ignored. And better to be misrepresented as being in a school one > is not, which it should be easy objectively to demonstrate, than > misrepresented less clearly, which is the usual case. > > I would add, now that I think about it, that pigeon-holing is > unavoidable--for instance, critics often write about Poet A that > Poet A's work is like, say, Jane Blow's. All that is, is > classifying a poet nebulously. I say, if we're going to classify, > why not do it right? > > Anyway, I still see no better way to work out what kinds of poetries > are extant than a list like mine, and think it important that we > know what kinds of poetries ARE out there. So I welcome most any > complaint of my missing some school or other, or not satisfactorily > defining or naming one. This list is definitely provisional! > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 26 10:55:49 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 10:55:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pigeon-holing: Or Poerty (& Language) Go Taxanomial References: <3B88D38C.19FD@nut-n-but.net> <004601c12e37$afda8fe0$18724342@twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <3B890DF5.EFC3CFB6@ix.netcom.com> Match a genus of poetry with a genus of pigeon!!! (Pigeon/Poetry Stuffing!!!) (Influences of Sciences Denied!!!) (Poetic Taxidermy Taught Here!!!) Pigeon Color Morphs blue-bar This bird has two black or dark gray stripes or "bars" on each light-gray wing. It has a dark-gray body and shiny, rainbow-like neck feathers. red-bar This bird has two red stripes or "bars" on each light-gray wing. It also has a rusty-red or brown shade to its body. spread This bird has one dark color spread all over its body. red This bird has a rusty-red or brown shade to its body and light-gray bars on its wings. checker This bird looks a little like a checkerboard. Its wing feathers have checks of light and dark. pied white This bird has white as well as other colors on its body. The "pied white flight" has white wing feathers, which are easy to see when the bird is flying. pied splash The "pied splash" pigeon has one or more spots of white. white This bird is solid white. This color morph is what some people call a dove of peace. Joseph Duemer wrote: > Bob Grumman writes: > > < daft since the function of language is to pigeon hole.>> > > I'm not entirely sure what the "function of language" is, but I'm pretty > sure it's NOT to "pigeon hole." > > And as for schools of poetry, the problem with such pigeon holes is how much > they fail to describe. To take only one example, the subgroup under > "Mainstream," Bob's list says: "Iowa Workshop poetry (e.g. Bell)," and while > I realize this is only a gesture toward definition, it leaves out both the > multiplicity of personalities who have shaped the Iowa program & the changes > over time. Marvin Bell hasn't had any serious influence on workshop > direction since the advent of Jorie Graham. And historically, it was Don > Justice who shaped the aesthetic of the workshop in its 1970s heyday. And by > the way, how does the fact that Justice, one of the most elegant poets > around, had a high appreciation for the "contra-genteel" poetry of WCW, as > well as for the verbal pyrotechnics of Berryman--& imparted these values to > many of his students? > > jd > ====================== > Joseph Duemer > School of Liberal Arts, 5750 > Clarkson University > Potsdam NY 13699 > 315.268.3967 > ====================== > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Aug 26 10:47:30 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 10:47:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry References: Message-ID: <3B890C02.4AC0@nut-n-but.net> Halvard Johnson wrote: > > > To imply, however, that > > pigeon-holing has no "meaning or necessity" is daft since the > > function of language is to pigeon hole. > > > > --Bob G. > > I'd say that's *one* function of language, Bob, not *the* > function. Another of language's many functions is to free us from > the pigeon hole. Could you give me an example of language's freeing us from the pigeon hole? All it can do, it seems to me, is take an object fromone pigeon hole and put it in another. I stand by my belief that the central purpose of language is to label things, so we can use it to communicate. Indeed, I think it stops being language when used any other way (but I haven't thought that through). --Bob G. From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Aug 26 10:51:16 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 10:51:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry References: <3B88D38C.19FD@nut-n-but.net> <004601c12e37$afda8fe0$18724342@twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <3B890CE4.86@nut-n-but.net> Joseph Duemer wrote: > > Bob Grumman writes: > > < daft since the function of language is to pigeon hole.>> > > I'm not entirely sure what the "function of language" is, but I'm pretty > sure it's NOT to "pigeon hole." > > And as for schools of poetry, the problem with such pigeon holes is how much > they fail to describe. To take only one example, the subgroup under > "Mainstream," Bob's list says: "Iowa Workshop poetry (e.g. Bell)," and while > I realize this is only a gesture toward definition, it leaves out both the > multiplicity of personalities who have shaped the Iowa program & the changes > over time. Marvin Bell hasn't had any serious influence on workshop > direction since the advent of Jorie Graham. And historically, it was Don > Justice who shaped the aesthetic of the workshop in its 1970s heyday. And by > the way, how does the fact that Justice, one of the most elegant poets > around, had a high appreciation for the "contra-genteel" poetry of WCW, as > well as for the verbal pyrotechnics of Berryman--& imparted these values to > many of his students? > > jd Quick reply: I made a point of saying that a given poet could be in more than one school. And, yes, the "Iowa-School" label is a gesture toward indicating a school. As for "pigeon-holing," why do people pigeon-hole language as not pigeon-holing? --Bob G. From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Aug 26 10:54:36 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 10:54:36 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry References: <20010826135912.54F1A36F9@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <3B890DAC.41B7@nut-n-but.net> One question for you, Bob: why do you classify the thing having to do with Popeye in your poem as a "grin?" Don't you demean it by pigeon-holing it? --Bob G. From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Aug 26 11:00:34 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 11:00:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Big Sigh References: Message-ID: <3B890F11.6689@nut-n-but.net> > where would i go to learn more about . . . visual, sound, > mathematical, and inFraverbal poetry? > > jason Not many places anywhere to go to learn about them. But there IS my own website, Comprepoetica: http:/www.geocities.com/Comprepoetica and my essay at light&dust: http://www.thing.net/~grist/l&d/grumman/egrumn.htm The whole light&dust site has lots of different poetries but little discussion of them, so far as I know. If you're at a good library, you might be able to get hold of Richard Kostelanetz's Dictionary of the Avant-Gardes, which has brief entries on much of this stuff (some by me). --Bob G. From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 26 11:00:50 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 11:00:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pigeon-holing: Or Poerty (& Language) Go Taxanomial References: <3B88D38C.19FD@nut-n-but.net> <004601c12e37$afda8fe0$18724342@twcny.rr.com> <3B890DF5.EFC3CFB6@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3B890F22.7DECD81F@ix.netcom.com> "Taxonomial" "We murder to dissect." "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" wrote: > Match a genus of poetry with a genus of pigeon!!! > (Pigeon/Poetry Stuffing!!!) > (Influences of Sciences Denied!!!) > (Poetic Taxidermy Taught Here!!!) > > Pigeon Color Morphs > blue-bar > This bird has two black or dark gray stripes or "bars" on each > light-gray wing. It has a > dark-gray body and shiny, rainbow-like neck feathers. > red-bar > This bird has two red stripes or "bars" on each light-gray wing. It > also has a rusty-red or > brown shade to > its body. > spread > This bird has one dark color spread all over its body. > red > This bird has a rusty-red or brown shade to its body and light-gray > bars on its wings. > checker > This bird looks a little like a checkerboard. Its wing feathers > have checks of light and > dark. > pied white > This bird has white as well as other colors on its body. The "pied > white flight" has white > wing feathers, which are easy to see when the bird is flying. > pied splash > The "pied splash" pigeon has one or more spots of white. > white > This bird is solid white. This color morph is what some people call > a dove of peace. > > Joseph Duemer wrote: > > > Bob Grumman writes: > > > > < > daft since the function of language is to pigeon hole.>> > > > > I'm not entirely sure what the "function of language" is, but I'm pretty > > sure it's NOT to "pigeon hole." > > > > And as for schools of poetry, the problem with such pigeon holes is how much > > they fail to describe. To take only one example, the subgroup under > > "Mainstream," Bob's list says: "Iowa Workshop poetry (e.g. Bell)," and while > > I realize this is only a gesture toward definition, it leaves out both the > > multiplicity of personalities who have shaped the Iowa program & the changes > > over time. Marvin Bell hasn't had any serious influence on workshop > > direction since the advent of Jorie Graham. And historically, it was Don > > Justice who shaped the aesthetic of the workshop in its 1970s heyday. And by > > the way, how does the fact that Justice, one of the most elegant poets > > around, had a high appreciation for the "contra-genteel" poetry of WCW, as > > well as for the verbal pyrotechnics of Berryman--& imparted these values to > > many of his students? > > > > jd > > ====================== > > Joseph Duemer > > School of Liberal Arts, 5750 > > Clarkson University > > Potsdam NY 13699 > > 315.268.3967 > > ====================== > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Aug 26 11:12:12 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 11:12:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pigeon-holing: Or Poerty (& Language) Go Taxanomial References: <3B88D38C.19FD@nut-n-but.net> <004601c12e37$afda8fe0$18724342@twcny.rr.com> <3B890DF5.EFC3CFB6@ix.netcom.com> <3B890F22.7DECD81F@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3B8911CC.4F10@nut-n-but.net> And the point of that which follows is what? That we should just call birds "birds" and not try to distinguish one kind of bird from another? Or should we do it right and not distinguish anything from anything else? Or is it only poems that are too sacred to be distinguished from one another--high ethereal utterances without material attributes. Except, dang, I've just pigeon-holed them as high ethereal utterances without material attributes. Whatever all those things are. confusedly, Bob G. > > "Taxonomial" > > "We murder to dissect." No, we name in order to distinguish one thing from another. > "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" wrote: > > > Match a genus of poetry with a genus of pigeon!!! > > (Pigeon/Poetry Stuffing!!!) > > (Influences of Sciences Denied!!!) > > (Poetic Taxidermy Taught Here!!!) > > > > Pigeon Color Morphs > > blue-bar > > This bird has two black or dark gray stripes or "bars" on each > > light-gray wing. It has a > > dark-gray body and shiny, rainbow-like neck feathers. > > red-bar > > This bird has two red stripes or "bars" on each light-gray wing. It > > also has a rusty-red or > > brown shade to > > its body. > > spread > > This bird has one dark color spread all over its body. > > red > > This bird has a rusty-red or brown shade to its body and light-gray > > bars on its wings. > > checker > > This bird looks a little like a checkerboard. Its wing feathers > > have checks of light and > > dark. > > pied white > > This bird has white as well as other colors on its body. The "pied > > white flight" has white > > wing feathers, which are easy to see when the bird is flying. > > pied splash > > The "pied splash" pigeon has one or more spots of white. > > white > > This bird is solid white. This color morph is what some people call > > a dove of peace. > > From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Sun Aug 26 11:27:41 2001 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 11:27:41 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Pigeon-holing: Or Poerty (& Language) Go Taxanomial Message-ID: <34.19ebf585.28ba6f6d@aol.com> We name, I think, in order to get beyond naming. To know convergences and divergences alike. To know differences, so we can rely on them--or forget them-- according to our needs. -Jeffrey Plum Trees We lay flank to flank, brushed by the thinning blood, its russet warmth. "Don't be cross," my brother asked. Or my mother asked. Over the phone, kitchen window, cardinal-watching, her three vermilion families. I know this though we're talking long distance. I've put in my time at that window. She wanted to ask about her other son, but stopped, imprisoned star, caught in the instant's freezing. If he appears in fire, a thousand lights contend for him mid a vault of thorns. La volta degli spini, I offered. "What?" Shredded, trampled, furrowed night. "Oh. The smoke always smells so bitter. Why is that, dear?" Every so often she happens on a soap that reminds her of the children when they were babies. "I wish he would talk to me," she sighed. I told her my nine-year-old can make out eight different species of pigeon in the city: Pied-Splash, Blue-Bar, Checker, Red-- A good eye identifies 28 color morphs, or feather patterns, I told my mother, who was not listening. She wanted to know when the next lunar eclipse would come. You must learn to measure time precisely, to plot the angle through the eyes - opposite over hypotenuse, I reminded her. Let x = sine. She began to sob. "What of the doves? Tell me more." Chaste and faithful, columbina simplicitas--simple. Be ye wise as serpents and harmless as doves, says the Bible. Though they flee, tremble, in terror of the eagle, the hawk. "Why only to you?" The cardinals eat and drink ceaselessly and well. She says they are "delighted" and too tremulous to sing. Optics deceive. Music lies. Their geometry encourages unjust dominion and mathematics, avarice. The sun falls in tufts of cotton from its place in the heavens. Oh, you night of grasses, she said. She had forgotten her quotes. I ask only the barefoot light on the sleeping land. I need to think of a proof for her. An oracle with cold lips and vaporous thought. Even a single blade of tasseled wheat. My brother's skin at seven years, saffron toasted in the sun, doe-eyed, a wounded bird. Each night, his house turns to stone, too cold for you, I warned my mother. Our bodies cover themselves with vines of syllables. Our murmurs collect in pitchers on the terrace. She pours them over the roots of the old and gnarled plum trees-- just before they flower, just before they fruit. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sun Aug 26 11:35:45 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 11:35:45 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry Message-ID: I think I've posted this before, but I did an essay on "schools" about ten years ago. It's at http://home.earthlink.net/~arthur505/cult1096.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 26 11:52:58 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 11:52:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pigeon-holing: Or Poerty (& Language) Go Taxanomial References: <3B88D38C.19FD@nut-n-but.net> <004601c12e37$afda8fe0$18724342@twcny.rr.com> <3B890DF5.EFC3CFB6@ix.netcom.com> <3B890F22.7DECD81F@ix.netcom.com> <3B8911CC.4F10@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <3B891B5A.216FCABE@ix.netcom.com> "Distinguish" and "pigeon-hole" have utterly different connotations. Besides your statements in general are poorly grounded and thus difficult to address. But I would insist that "distinguishing" pigeon species does not in itself carry those distinctions in different respects beyond the individual, group of specialists, culture etc. whatever discretion is performing the taxonomial act. (See Benjamin Whorf on Shawnee and Hopi or of course Wittgenstein.) Further, my concern which I have elababorated in my work (and it has been demonstrated that this work is well beyond the capacities of most people on this list) is to connect your categorical predilections to an uncritical, even unconcsious, submission to specifically western taxonomial practices which have their origins and methods in the sciences and not language, and certainly not poetry. The dangers of 'borrowing' from scientific taxonomial practices are well documented. (See anywhere from Dreyfus to Feyerabend to Adorno to Hayek.) Even physicists and mathematicians have warned against such practice ad nauseam (See Bohr, Heisenberg, Born, etc.) yet the scientific/mathematical method forms the substructure of all acknowledged endeavor in our culture which is now by force, both military or economic, becoming everybody's culture. I have now turned my own study to the literature of eschatology that is growing in the scientific communtiy itself, a 'language' of the end-time from the very creators of the scientific practices that brought about the end time scenarios. If you haven't noticed the language of ecology and the environment is just as much a language of eschatology as is the language of self-reproducing automata and strong A.I. As for math and science, my math and science friends are rushing headlong toward nonlinearity like nonlinear systems were some sort of fire exit---their escape from the taxonomial apocalypse. Of course, I point out that they are decidedly not becoming poets of the cosmos, just creating more sophistcated mathematical approaches still grounded in the old limited and limiting discretions. Wittgenstein wrote: "When, for example, I am given an albebraic function, I am CERTAIN (Witt.'s ironic caps) that I shall be able to work out its values for the arguments 1, 2, 3,...up to 10. This certainty will be called 'well-founded', for I have learned to compute such functions, and so on. In other cases no reasons will be given for it---but it will be justified by success." Among many, the Francis Bacon provided the necessary caveat to Witt,'s remark: "For man's sense is falsely asserted to the standard of things." CP Bob Grumman wrote: > And the point of that which follows is what? That we should just > call birds "birds" and not try to distinguish one kind of bird from > another? Or should we do it right and not distinguish anything > from anything else? Or is it only poems that are too sacred to be > distinguished from one another--high ethereal utterances without > material attributes. Except, dang, I've just pigeon-holed them > as high ethereal utterances without material attributes. Whatever > all those things are. > > confusedly, Bob G. > > > > "Taxonomial" > > > > "We murder to dissect." > > No, we name in order to distinguish one thing from another. > > > "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" wrote: > > > > > Match a genus of poetry with a genus of pigeon!!! > > > (Pigeon/Poetry Stuffing!!!) > > > (Influences of Sciences Denied!!!) > > > (Poetic Taxidermy Taught Here!!!) > > > > > > Pigeon Color Morphs > > > blue-bar > > > This bird has two black or dark gray stripes or "bars" on each > > > light-gray wing. It has a > > > dark-gray body and shiny, rainbow-like neck feathers. > > > red-bar > > > This bird has two red stripes or "bars" on each light-gray wing. It > > > also has a rusty-red or > > > brown shade to > > > its body. > > > spread > > > This bird has one dark color spread all over its body. > > > red > > > This bird has a rusty-red or brown shade to its body and light-gray > > > bars on its wings. > > > checker > > > This bird looks a little like a checkerboard. Its wing feathers > > > have checks of light and > > > dark. > > > pied white > > > This bird has white as well as other colors on its body. The "pied > > > white flight" has white > > > wing feathers, which are easy to see when the bird is flying. > > > pied splash > > > The "pied splash" pigeon has one or more spots of white. > > > white > > > This bird is solid white. This color morph is what some people call > > > a dove of peace. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Sun Aug 26 12:03:40 2001 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:03:40 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Pigeon-holing: Or Poerty (& Language) Go Taxanomial Message-ID: <93.f4b2a96.28ba77dc@aol.com> In a message dated 8/26/01 11:55:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes: > The dangers of 'borrowing' from > scientific taxonomial practices are well documented. (See anywhere from > Dreyfus to > Feyerabend to Adorno to Hayek.) Even physicists and mathematicians have > warned against > Ack! I had no idea! Please delete my poem at once (if you haven't done already), else all hell break loose, and woe betide the careless. Jeffrey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wasanthony at yahoo.com Sun Aug 26 12:24:04 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 09:24:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Pigeon-holing: Or Poerty (& Language) Go Taxanomial In-Reply-To: <93.f4b2a96.28ba77dc@aol.com> Message-ID: <20010826162404.60274.qmail@web12108.mail.yahoo.com> In all this, has anyone pointed out that pigeons don't sing? However, the sounds they do make might be like that of a certain type of pigeon-poet. - Jim ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 26 12:27:49 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:27:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry References: <3B88D38C.19FD@nut-n-but.net> <004601c12e37$afda8fe0$18724342@twcny.rr.com> <3B890CE4.86@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <3B892385.3196BBA9@ix.netcom.com> Bob Grumman wrote: Ah, Logic 101 e.g. "I am not lying." Or quite a bit more fun, the "Are you a tree-frog?" vignette from Herzog's Caspar Hauser starring the divine Bruno S. In other words, first we'll need a defintion of "pigeon-holing" that will stand in perpetuity. Otherwise nothing short of a telepathic, absolute accord on what constitutes a"pigeon-hole" will do. Sorry, even that isn't absolutely testable--Tarski . P.S. I would hazard that some obscene, scatalogical 'definition' of 'pigeon-holing' is more likely to find its way into the coarse 'poetry' of us common men and women for untold generations, than your heretofore amorphous application to poetic taxonomies and language in general. This however does not mean that 'pigeon holing' has been well-defined in either case. Of course, the origins of the term could go far in determining it's applicability as a poetic gloss. This sort of specificity makes for good poetry too (see Pound). CP Bob Grumman wrote: > Joseph Duemer wrote: > > > > Bob Grumman writes: > > > > < > daft since the function of language is to pigeon hole.>> > > > > I'm not entirely sure what the "function of language" is, but I'm pretty > > sure it's NOT to "pigeon hole." > > > > And as for schools of poetry, the problem with such pigeon holes is how much > > they fail to describe. To take only one example, the subgroup under > > "Mainstream," Bob's list says: "Iowa Workshop poetry (e.g. Bell)," and while > > I realize this is only a gesture toward definition, it leaves out both the > > multiplicity of personalities who have shaped the Iowa program & the changes > > over time. Marvin Bell hasn't had any serious influence on workshop > > direction since the advent of Jorie Graham. And historically, it was Don > > Justice who shaped the aesthetic of the workshop in its 1970s heyday. And by > > the way, how does the fact that Justice, one of the most elegant poets > > around, had a high appreciation for the "contra-genteel" poetry of WCW, as > > well as for the verbal pyrotechnics of Berryman--& imparted these values to > > many of his students? > > > > jd > > Quick reply: I made a point of saying that a given poet could be > in more than one school. And, yes, the "Iowa-School" label is a > gesture toward indicating a school. > > As for "pigeon-holing," why do people pigeon-hole language as > not pigeon-holing? > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Aug 26 12:24:42 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:24:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry In-Reply-To: <3B890C02.4AC0@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: > Halvard Johnson wrote: > > > > > To imply, however, that > > > pigeon-holing has no "meaning or necessity" is daft since the > > > function of language is to pigeon hole. > > > > > > --Bob G. > > > > I'd say that's *one* function of language, Bob, not *the* > > function. Another of language's many functions is to free us from > > the pigeon hole. > > Could you give me an example of language's freeing us from the > pigeon hole? All it can do, it seems to me, is take an object > fromone pigeon hole and put it in another. I stand by my belief > that the central purpose of language is to label things, so we > can use it to communicate. Indeed, I think it stops being language > when used any other way (but I haven't thought that through). > > --Bob G. Well, my last message to you is one example. At least it's an *attempt* to free us from the pigeon hole. I'd certainly agree that one of the "central" things that language does is to name things. But language in and of itself has no purpose at all. There are only the various purposes of those who use language. And those can be to confuse, to miscommunicate, and to prevent communication (among many others) as well as to communicate. And I haven't even mentioned these--to amuse, to edify, to astonish, to outrage, to assuage, to bemuse, etc., etc. etc. Now give me an example that shows when language stops being language, please. (purpose here: polite request) Hal "The thing to remember is that each time of life has its appropriate rewards, whereas when you're dead it's hard to find the light switch." --Woody Allen Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 26 12:32:21 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:32:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pigeon-holing: Or Poerty (& Language) Go Taxanomial References: <93.f4b2a96.28ba77dc@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B892495.21081773@ix.netcom.com> Well, of course, you had no idea. CP FanwoodJEL at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/26/01 11:55:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > alphavil at ix.netcom.com writes: > > > >> The dangers of 'borrowing' from >> scientific taxonomial practices are well documented. (See anywhere >> from >> Dreyfus to >> Feyerabend to Adorno to Hayek.) Even physicists and mathematicians >> have >> warned against >> such practice ad nauseam (See Bohr, Heisenberg, Born, etc.) > > Ack! I had no idea! Please delete my poem at once (if you haven't done > > already), else all hell break loose, and woe betide the careless. > > Jeffrey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Aug 26 12:35:38 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:35:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Violins Violence Silence Message-ID: Violins Violence Silence "The true artist helps the world by revealing mystic truths." ?Bruce Nauman "Language assists the mind in stabilizing and preserving intellectual entities. It does this, for example, with the perceptual concepts that emerge from direct experience. The generalities acquired in perception are embedded in the continuum of the visual world. The concept of tree rests on an endless variety of trees of different color, shape, and size; it is found inherent in each tree but is not identical with any one specimen. Furthermore, the range to which such a type concept applies is not clearly confined but slides into that of its neighbors. Trees border on shrubs, vegetables blend with fruits, violas with violins, the Romanesque with the Gothic, Miss A with Miss B. Thought needs discrete types, and perception is geared to supply it, but the structure of the raw material of experience does not furnish neat dichotomies, simple either-or's; it consists of ranges, shades, gliding scales." ?Rudolf Arnheim The true artist rests on trees of different cholers ships and seizures discreet types acquired in mystic trues slide into those of their neighbors Miss A and Miss B por ejemplo who share the same edges perform violin and viola duos in both Romanesque and Gothic styles across a street intellectual energies merge with morning miseries embedding themselves in continuum of visibly violent world the apple tree glides sans effort into neat dichotomies of hedge Miss B's favorite viola bush torn asunder by perceptual concepts ripped direct from eggsperience the raw material of the violin is found after each in trees but not a matter of simple ether-ores while stabilized silence shades into each scaling ranges animals vegetals geared to generalities of shrubs confined but bordering on inherent instability of applied language its jaggedly revealed truths Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From wasanthony at yahoo.com Sun Aug 26 13:29:39 2001 From: wasanthony at yahoo.com (jcervantes) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 10:29:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Violins Violence Silence In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010826172939.62578.qmail@web12108.mail.yahoo.com> Pigeon "Either" and Pigeon "Or" My two pigeons bordered on extinction for fifteen days, until wind or possibly cats furnished the yard with feathers of the same color, shape, and size. My concept of pigeon slid away from crows in the trees, sparrows in the shrubs, and the colorful splatter of birds who'd eaten my fruits and vegetables. Neighbor A told me discretely of Neighbor B, whose Gothic son possessed a pellet gun and camoflauge play-clothes. I should have perceived he was geared for violence despite his specimen violin and Romanesque scales. I should have confined his dichotomy, made a flyway for the pigeon-world, a continuum of gray. - Jim --- Halvard Johnson wrote: > Violins Violence Silence > > "The true artist > helps the world > by revealing mystic truths." > > ?Bruce Nauman > > "Language assists the mind in stabilizing > and preserving > intellectual entities. It does this, for > example, with the > perceptual concepts that emerge from direct > experience. > The generalities acquired in perception are > embedded in > the continuum of the visual world. The concept of > tree > rests on an endless variety of trees of different > color, > shape, and size; it is found inherent in each tree > but is > not identical with any one specimen. Furthermore, > the > range to which such a type concept applies is not > clearly > confined but slides into that of its neighbors. > Trees border > on shrubs, vegetables blend with fruits, violas > with violins, > the Romanesque with the Gothic, Miss A with Miss B. > Thought needs discrete types, and perception is > geared > to supply it, but the structure of the raw material of > experience does not furnish neat dichotomies, > simple > either-or's; it consists of ranges, shades, > gliding scales." > > ?Rudolf Arnheim > > > The true artist rests on trees > of different cholers ships and seizures > discreet types > acquired in mystic trues > slide into those of their neighbors > Miss A and Miss B por ejemplo > who share the same edges perform violin and viola duos > in both Romanesque and Gothic styles > across a street > intellectual energies merge with morning miseries > embedding themselves in continuum > of visibly violent world the apple > tree glides sans effort into neat dichotomies of hedge > Miss B's favorite viola bush torn asunder > by perceptual concepts > ripped direct from eggsperience > > the raw material of the violin > is found after each in trees but not > a matter of simple ether-ores while stabilized silence shades > into each scaling ranges > animals vegetals geared > to generalities of shrubs confined but bordering on > inherent instability > of applied language > its jaggedly revealed truths > > > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > =============== > email: halvard at earthlink.net > website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson > > ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ James Cervantes: wasanthony at yahoo.com & jvcervantes at earthlink.net Salt River Review: "Ripples" @ Poetserv: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ From bardo at optonline.net Sun Aug 26 13:57:37 2001 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 13:57:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pigeon-holing: Or Poerty (& Language) Go Taxanomial References: <3B88D38C.19FD@nut-n-but.net> <004601c12e37$afda8fe0$18724342@twcny.rr.com> <3B890DF5.EFC3CFB6@ix.netcom.com> <3B890F22.7DECD81F@ix.netcom.com> <3B8911CC.4F10@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <001b01c12e58$97f80c60$ef7dbd18@win98> Well, we might want to distinguish the red herring bird (the purely verbal creation of a featherless biped; see below) from the birds of different feathers. As for language that liberates us from the pigeonholing function, try metaphor 1. as in featherless biped--a literal statement with metaphorical implications--or 2. my love is a rose--a metaphor which, because literally untrue, has little intrinsic force to keep anyone in whatever pigeonhole it might propose. (The pigeon won't fit in the hole. The dove has flown the cote.) Applied to poets, taxonomy shoots the messenger. I take it, Bob, that you apply it to poems (or types of poems). Perhaps much of the resistance to your project results from conflating the poet with the poem (much as the construction of a red herring results from a conflation of the relevant with the less so). Listening, Dan Zimmerman ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 11:12 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pigeon-holing: Or Poerty (& Language) Go Taxanomial > And the point of that which follows is what? That we should just > call birds "birds" and not try to distinguish one kind of bird from > another? Or should we do it right and not distinguish anything > from anything else? Or is it only poems that are too sacred to be > distinguished from one another--high ethereal utterances without > material attributes. Except, dang, I've just pigeon-holed them > as high ethereal utterances without material attributes. Whatever > all those things are. > > confusedly, Bob G. > > > > "Taxonomial" > > > > "We murder to dissect." > > No, we name in order to distinguish one thing from another. > > > "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" wrote: > > > > > Match a genus of poetry with a genus of pigeon!!! > > > (Pigeon/Poetry Stuffing!!!) > > > (Influences of Sciences Denied!!!) > > > (Poetic Taxidermy Taught Here!!!) > > > > > > Pigeon Color Morphs > > > blue-bar > > > This bird has two black or dark gray stripes or "bars" on each > > > light-gray wing. It has a > > > dark-gray body and shiny, rainbow-like neck feathers. > > > red-bar > > > This bird has two red stripes or "bars" on each light-gray wing. It > > > also has a rusty-red or > > > brown shade to > > > its body. > > > spread > > > This bird has one dark color spread all over its body. > > > red > > > This bird has a rusty-red or brown shade to its body and light-gray > > > bars on its wings. > > > checker > > > This bird looks a little like a checkerboard. Its wing feathers > > > have checks of light and > > > dark. > > > pied white > > > This bird has white as well as other colors on its body. The "pied > > > white flight" has white > > > wing feathers, which are easy to see when the bird is flying. > > > pied splash > > > The "pied splash" pigeon has one or more spots of white. > > > white > > > This bird is solid white. This color morph is what some people call > > > a dove of peace. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Aug 26 13:40:49 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 13:40:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry References: Message-ID: <3B8934A1.4CD3@nut-n-but.net> > > > > To imply, however, that > > > > pigeon-holing has no "meaning or necessity" is daft since the > > > > function of language is to pigeon hole. > > > > > > > > --Bob G. > > > > > > I'd say that's *one* function of language, Bob, not *the* > > > function. Another of language's many functions is to free > > > us from the pigeon hole. > > Could you give me an example of language's freeing us from the > > pigeon hole? All it can do, it seems to me, is take an object > > from one pigeon hole and put it in another. I stand by my belief > > that the central purpose of language is to label things, so we > > can use it to communicate. Indeed, I think it stops being language > > when used any other way (but I haven't thought that through). > > > > Well, my last message to you is one example. At least it's an > *attempt* to free us from the pigeon hole. But it can't work because you use definitions/names/pigeon-holing to give "language" a bigger pigeon-hole than I had it in. > I'd certainly agree that one of the "central" things that language > does is to name things. But language in and of itself has no purpose > at all. There are only the various purposes of those who use > language. Sorry, I don't understand this. A purpose is what a thing has apparently been made to do; it's ascertainable from what it CAN do. You can't eat language or make a coat from it. You CAN use it to communicate. Etc. > And those can be to confuse, to miscommunicate, and > to prevent communication (among many others) as well as to > communicate. And I haven't even mentioned these--to amuse, > to edify, to astonish, to outrage, to assuage, to bemuse, etc., > etc. etc. These all seem kinds of communications to me. I'm not sure you can "miscommunicate"; I tend to think you can only communicate things that are false, or something other than you meant, etc. > Now give me an example that shows when language stops > being language, please. (purpose here: polite request) h Okay: hhhhhhhhhhhhhh h This is (verbal) language divorced of verbality to become design Example #2 (spoken): Joop-ulk, jook-ulp This is (verbal) language divorced of verbality to become music (almost but not quite, since any syllable will suggest words and thus connote something) Example #3: gjpglmdnvxx This is language reduced out of verbality to nonsense, which I claim is not verbal language except inasmuch as it can communicate the absence of sense. We can be silly and say that everything can mean something, so everything is language, but I would claim that language, to be language, has to be able SIGNIFICANTLY to mean (for a majority of thinking individuals). --Bob G. From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Aug 26 13:46:13 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 13:46:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Violins Violence Silence References: Message-ID: <3B8935E5.5517@nut-n-but.net> Fun poem, Hal, and the Arnheim quotation makes sense. All he's saying, for me, though, is that no pigeon-hole will ever precisely separate one X for all that is not X. One can come close, though: "Bob Grumman's cat Suzy at 1:45 P.M. on August 16, 2001," for instance. --Bob G. From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Aug 26 14:11:08 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:11:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pigeon-holing: Or Poerty (& Language) Go Taxanomial References: <3B88D38C.19FD@nut-n-but.net> <004601c12e37$afda8fe0$18724342@twcny.rr.com> <3B890DF5.EFC3CFB6@ix.netcom.com> <3B890F22.7DECD81F@ix.netcom.com> <3B8911CC.4F10@nut-n-but.net> <3B891B5A.216FCABE@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3B893BBC.46D2@nut-n-but.net> > "Distinguish" and "pigeon-hole" have utterly different connotations. I don't know about "utterly," but they do have significantly different connotations. To classify a poet's work in a way the poet likes is to distinguish it; to classify it in a way he doesn't but can't refute is to pigeon-hole it. What's important, though, is the shared denotation of the two words. > Besides your statements in general are poorly grounded and thus > difficult to address. And yours are obscurantistly relativistic and difficult to address. > But I would insist that "distinguishing" pigeon species does not > in itself carry those distinctions in different respects beyond the > individual, group of specialists, culture etc. whatever discretion > is performing the taxonomial act. (See Benjamin Whorf on Shawnee and > Hopi or of course Wittgenstein.) By which you mean each of us classifies things only down to the level of his particular interest? So what? > Further, my concern which I have elababorated in my work (and it > has been demonstrated that this work is well beyond the capacities > of most people on this list) is to connect your categorical > predilections to an uncritical, even unconscious, submission to > specifically western taxonomial practices which have their origins > and methods in the sciences and not language, and certainly not > poetry. The dangers of 'borrowing' from scientific taxonomial > practices are well documented. (See anywhere from Dreyfus to > Feyerabend to Adorno to Hayek.) Even physicists and mathematicians > have warned against such practice ad nauseam (See Bohr, Heisenberg, > Born, etc.) yet the scientific/mathematical method forms the > substructure of all acknowledged endeavor in our culture which is > now by force, both military or economic, becoming everybody's > culture. The scientific/mathematical method seems to be the ideal for rational people, yes--but it is certainly not becoming "everybody's culture." The dangers of ignoring "western" rationality have also been "documented" by a slew of big names in philosophy and elsewhere. > I have now turned my own study to the literature of eschatology > that is growing in the scientific community itself, a 'language' > of the end-time from the very creators of the scientific practices > that brought about the end time scenarios. If you haven't noticed > the language of ecology and the environment is just as much a > language of eschatology as is the language of self-reproducing > automata and strong A.I. > > As for math and science, my math and science friends are rushing > headlong toward nonlinearity like nonlinear systems were some > sort of fire exit---their escape from the taxonomial apocalypse. No, they are trying to escape from the possibility that their theories make no sense by taking up non-linearity (i.e. philosophical irresponsibility). > Of course, I point out that they are decidedly not becoming poets > of the cosmos, just creating more sophisticated mathematical > approaches still grounded in the old limited and limiting > discretions. As opposed to what? Anything can be anything and everything? > Wittgenstein wrote: "When, for example, I am given an albebraic > function, I am CERTAIN (Witt.'s ironic caps) that I shall be able > to work out its values for the arguments 1, 2, 3,...up to 10. > This certainty will be called 'well-founded', for I have learned > to compute such functions, and so on. In other cases no reasons > will be given for it---but it will be justified by success." Sorry, I'm just another Dr. Johnson, refuting Berkeley by kicking a stone. You have to start with a subjective idea of what reality is and go from there, using logic (which is human--actually animal-- not "Western"). This allows you to sit where the chair is rather than just anywhere to because anything can be a chair. I am aware of not thoroughly or even semi-responsibly replying to your position. My point is simply that we need names to allow for communication, and we can only get names by pigeon-holing things. Well-grounded or not, that's about all I want to say about pigeon-holing. --Bob G. > > Among many, the Francis Bacon provided the necessary caveat to Witt,'s remark: "For > man's sense is falsely asserted to the standard of things." CP > > Bob Grumman wrote: > > > And the point of that which follows is what? That we should just > > call birds "birds" and not try to distinguish one kind of bird from > > another? Or should we do it right and not distinguish anything > > from anything else? Or is it only poems that are too sacred to be > > distinguished from one another--high ethereal utterances without > > material attributes. Except, dang, I've just pigeon-holed them > > as high ethereal utterances without material attributes. Whatever > > all those things are. > > > > confusedly, Bob G. > > > > > > "Taxonomial" > > > > > > "We murder to dissect." > > > > No, we name in order to distinguish one thing from another. > > > > > "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" wrote: > > > > > > > Match a genus of poetry with a genus of pigeon!!! > > > > (Pigeon/Poetry Stuffing!!!) > > > > (Influences of Sciences Denied!!!) > > > > (Poetic Taxidermy Taught Here!!!) > > > > > > > > Pigeon Color Morphs > > > > blue-bar > > > > This bird has two black or dark gray stripes or "bars" on each > > > > light-gray wing. It has a > > > > dark-gray body and shiny, rainbow-like neck feathers. > > > > red-bar > > > > This bird has two red stripes or "bars" on each light-gray wing. It > > > > also has a rusty-red or > > > > brown shade to > > > > its body. > > > > spread > > > > This bird has one dark color spread all over its body. > > > > red > > > > This bird has a rusty-red or brown shade to its body and light-gray > > > > bars on its wings. > > > > checker > > > > This bird looks a little like a checkerboard. Its wing feathers > > > > have checks of light and > > > > dark. > > > > pied white > > > > This bird has white as well as other colors on its body. The "pied > > > > white flight" has white > > > > wing feathers, which are easy to see when the bird is flying. > > > > pied splash > > > > The "pied splash" pigeon has one or more spots of white. > > > > white > > > > This bird is solid white. This color morph is what some people call > > > > a dove of peace. > > > > From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sun Aug 26 14:15:55 2001 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 19:15:55 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pigeon-holing: Or Poerty (& Language) Go Taxanomial References: <3B88D38C.19FD@nut-n-but.net> <004601c12e37$afda8fe0$18724342@twcny.rr.com> <3B890DF5.EFC3CFB6@ix.netcom.com> <3B890F22.7DECD81F@ix.netcom.com> <3B8911CC.4F10@nut-n-but.net> <001b01c12e58$97f80c60$ef7dbd18@win98> Message-ID: <00bc01c12e5b$3033fe60$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3> From: "Daniel Zimmerman" > 2. my love is a rose--a metaphor Simile -- Burns wrote, "My love is +like+ [sic] a red, red rose." Metaphors assert an identity -- similes proffer a comparison. Robin Hamilton. From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Aug 26 14:13:41 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:13:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Violins Violence Silence In-Reply-To: <3B8935E5.5517@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: > Fun poem, Hal, and the Arnheim quotation makes sense. All he's > saying, for me, though, is that no pigeon-hole will ever precisely > separate one X for all that is not X. One can come close, though: > "Bob Grumman's cat Suzy at 1:45 P.M. on August 16, 2001," for > instance. > > --Bob G. In what time zone would that be? What calendar? Which Bob Grumman? Which physical universe? Eh? Hal "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." --Albert Einstein Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Aug 26 14:28:56 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:28:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry References: Message-ID: <3B893FE8.359E@nut-n-but.net> Yes, and we discussed it here, I think. Well-written and interesting but pretty limited from my point-of-view--a brief, not very up-to-date or knowledgeable mention of "concrete poetry" (long superceded by visual poetry) is the only reference to any of my own favored poetries. I do think I could graft some thoughts from it onto my list of schools to the advantage of the latter. Which I hope to do when I have time. --Bob G. From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Sun Aug 26 14:33:14 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 13:33:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pigeon Coo Blurb Message-ID: <200108261833.f7QIXQP41558@mx16.mx.voyager.net> Of course we poets are obsessed with our Adamic function: we're namers, makers of meaning and anti-meaning and everything in between. We even like to argue about whether we pigeon-hole things or not. Delicious. One of my favorite examples of the difficulties of categorization, description, discernment, and so forth is that most lyric form, the book blurb. Most blurbists settle for one or more of the current platitudes ("astonishing" "risk-taking" "compassionate" "deeply humane"), or else they simply strut the blurbist's own self-importance. Most blurbs, like most lyrics, fail to clarify, much less to sing. Thus I'm always alerted when I encounter a blurb that seems to succeed. For example, Thom Gunn on the back of August Kleinzahler's *Red Sauce, Whiskey and Snow* seems to me to perform valuable service to those who might be contemplating parting with their $19 (hardback): "The distinction of AK is that he has combined two opposed poetic modes. The first is the joky improvised speech we associate with O'Hara; the second the condensed, considered 'lapidary' style of let us say Bunting. When Kleinzahler reconciles them, he creates something all his own, and does so with an energy I find unequalled by other living poets." Entirely apart from whether I admire Kleinzahler's poetry (as I do) I find this blurb exemplary--not just in its judicious comparison-as-categorization, but in its equally judicious awareness ("we associate," "let us say") of what such comparisons cannot do, where they must inevitably fall short. Like metaphors (as Frost reminded us) that inevitably break down when you push them too far, so too all taxonomies when you cling too avidly too them. Or so it seems to me. _______________________ David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu _______________________ From bardo at optonline.net Sun Aug 26 14:33:08 2001 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:33:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pigeon-holing: Or Poerty (& Language) Go Taxanomial References: <3B88D38C.19FD@nut-n-but.net> <004601c12e37$afda8fe0$18724342@twcny.rr.com> <3B890DF5.EFC3CFB6@ix.netcom.com> <3B890F22.7DECD81F@ix.netcom.com> <3B8911CC.4F10@nut-n-but.net> <001b01c12e58$97f80c60$ef7dbd18@win98> <00bc01c12e5b$3033fe60$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3> Message-ID: <005001c12e5d$8d84a040$ef7dbd18@win98> Yeah, Robin. I know. I didn't quote Burns. I gave an example of a metaphor which resembles Burns' simile. OK with you, or do I have to pay a fine? Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: Robin Hamilton To: Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 2:15 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pigeon-holing: Or Poerty (& Language) Go Taxanomial > From: "Daniel Zimmerman" > > > 2. my love is a rose--a metaphor > > Simile -- Burns wrote, "My love is +like+ [sic] a red, red rose." > > Metaphors assert an identity -- similes proffer a comparison. > > Robin Hamilton. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From trbell at home.com Sun Aug 26 12:27:10 2001 From: trbell at home.com (trbell at home.com) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 11:27:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry way off topic? References: <3B893FE8.359E@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <01f201c12e4b$f50ed760$2e442718@ruthfd1.tn.home.com> way off topic, perhaps, but sometimes words matter. the enclosed is something I'm working on for a medical audience, but might be poetry? tom bell Words that Really Matter A. "Vexing inconvenience" is the best a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist, David Willman, [1] could come up to describe the pain and life-destroying agony experienced by those who suffer from irritable bowel syndrome, a functional gastrointestinal disorder, which has recently been receiving recognition and research. This is a complex and fairly common disorder which goes by a number of names and in the past was often dismissed by physicians who felt frustrated by their inability to treat it [2]. It went by many names in the past, including 'spastic colon' and 'psychosomatic disorder' which may have contributed to physicians' and members of the general public's tendency to dismiss it. It is also one of the "functional somatic syndromes" which recently been the focus of some medical and scientific controversy over diagnosis and terminology [3]. Although an improvement on earlier terms, Willman's use was 'vexing' to hundreds of sufferers who belonged to an internet advocacy group and dismissive terms like this may well be a factor in funding for research and development of appropriate medication and in decisions regarding approval of these medications. (I have corresponded with Mr. Willman on this issue and he is aware of the problem. He also received numerous emails on this and probably won't be averse to publicity on the issue) B. "All in the mind" seems to be something people often think their doctor is saying. All he or she is saying is that such things as stress, anxiety, and depression might contribute to problems. The doctor is not saying the problem is imaginary or even that it is all 'psychological', unless he or she is also a victim of the Cartesian fallacy [4]. Not only is psychological treatment which in fact focuses paradoxically on the body (hypnosis, biofeedback, and cognitive behavioral therapy) effective in reducing stress, anxiety, and depression, but research is now showing that it appears to affect the "physical" symptomatology [5]. It may be that so-called mind-body therapies may be in the end be more appropriately called body-mind therapies. [1] THE NATION; FDA Moving to Revive Deadly Drug; Health: Agency director works with manufacturer to bring back Lotronex despite fatalities, DAVID WILLMAN; The Los Angeles Times; May 30, 2001; Record edition; pg. A.1 [2] "Indecision" on the part of physicians is possibly a contributing factor itself according to some parties in a recent medical controversy: Paulley, J. W. "Indecision and irritable bowel," Gut 2001;49:455-456 ( September ). [4] Descartes and the gut: "I'm pink therefore I am" D G THOMPSON Gut 2001 49: 165-166 [5] Blanchard, Edward. Irritable Bowel Syndrome: Psychosocial Assessment and Treatment, Washungton, APA, 2001. From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Aug 26 14:39:00 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:39:00 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pigeon-holing: Or Poerty (& Language) Go Taxanomial References: <3B88D38C.19FD@nut-n-but.net> <004601c12e37$afda8fe0$18724342@twcny.rr.com> <3B890DF5.EFC3CFB6@ix.netcom.com> <3B890F22.7DECD81F@ix.netcom.com> <3B8911CC.4F10@nut-n-but.net> <001b01c12e58$97f80c60$ef7dbd18@win98> Message-ID: <3B894244.E49@nut-n-but.net> See? You try for a list of poetries and we get all kinds of stuff on pigeon-holing, but not one addition to my list. Gahh! Daniel Zimmerman wrote: > Well, we might want to distinguish the red herring > bird (the purely > verbal creation of a featherless biped; see below) > from the birds > of different feathers. As for language that > liberates us from the > pigeonholing function, try metaphor > 1. as in featherless biped--a literal statement with > metaphorical implications--or > 2. my love is a rose--a metaphor which, because > literally untrue, has little > intrinsic force to keep anyone in whatever > pigeonhole it might propose. > (The pigeon won't fit in the hole. The dove has > flown the cote.) I disagree. What a metaphor does is make a pigeonhole, in the preceding example, one for loves that can be compared to red roses. > Applied to poets, taxonomy shoots the messenger. I > take it, Bob, that > you apply it to poems (or types of poems). types of poems, yes. I try to keep stating that one poet can be in many schools, by which I mean can have poems in various schools. But most poets are significantly in at least one school as poets, or makers of enough poems that fit the school to be considered poets of that school. > Perhaps > much of the > resistance to your project results from conflating > the poet with the > poem (much as the construction of a red herring > results from a > conflation of the relevant with the less so). I think that's true. But there's also the fear of many poets, I believe, of being found out. They think if their work can be defined, they'll lose their magician badges or something. --Bob G. From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Aug 26 14:47:38 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:47:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Violins Violence Silence References: Message-ID: <3B89444A.C4@nut-n-but.net> Halvard Johnson wrote: > > > Fun poem, Hal, and the Arnheim quotation makes sense. All he's > > saying, for me, though, is that no pigeon-hole will ever precisely > > separate one X for all that is not X. One can come close, though: > > "Bob Grumman's cat Suzy at 1:45 P.M. on August 16, 2001," for > > instance. > > > > --Bob G. > > In what time zone would that be? What calendar? Which Bob > Grumman? Which physical universe? Eh? > > Hal I suspect that if I promised you a millyun dollars for answering your questions, you'd be able to, Hal. (Note: I was going to put my address in but forgot. Anyway, having a standard vocabulary and knowledge is to be understood.) --Bob G. From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sun Aug 26 15:00:28 2001 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 20:00:28 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pigeon-holing: Or Poerty (& Language) Go Taxanomial References: <3B88D38C.19FD@nut-n-but.net> <004601c12e37$afda8fe0$18724342@twcny.rr.com> <3B890DF5.EFC3CFB6@ix.netcom.com> <3B890F22.7DECD81F@ix.netcom.com> <3B8911CC.4F10@nut-n-but.net> <001b01c12e58$97f80c60$ef7dbd18@win98> <00bc01c12e5b$3033fe60$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3> <005001c12e5d$8d84a040$ef7dbd18@win98> Message-ID: <00ed01c12e62$41b46a60$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3> Dan: Nah -- I was being clever clever -- thought the discussion about the Rose stuff was about to rack up to "All nicht be the rose", and Chaucer's romance. But the simile/metaphor distinction is one of my hot buttons. My fault -- excuse. Robin (Incidentally, your email address -- "bardo" -- way back when, I wrote a poem titled "A Bardo of the Rock" which was severely into formucopia. Any connection? Other than the obvious Tibetan one ... D2) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Zimmerman" To: Cc: "Daniel Zimmerman" Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 7:33 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pigeon-holing: Or Poerty (& Language) Go Taxanomial > Yeah, Robin. I know. I didn't quote Burns. > I gave an example of a metaphor which resembles > Burns' simile. OK with you, or do I have to pay a > fine? > > Dan > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Robin Hamilton > > To: > Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 2:15 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pigeon-holing: Or Poerty > (& Language) Go Taxanomial > > > > From: "Daniel Zimmerman" > > > > > 2. my love is a rose--a metaphor > > > > Simile -- Burns wrote, "My love is +like+ [sic] a > red, red rose." > > > > Metaphors assert an identity -- similes proffer a > comparison. > > > > Robin Hamilton. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Aug 26 15:06:05 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:06:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pigeon Coo Blurb References: <200108261833.f7QIXQP41558@mx16.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <3B89489D.3611@nut-n-but.net> > "The distinction of AK is that he has combined two opposed poetic > modes. The first is the joky improvised speech we associate with > O'Hara; the second the condensed, considered 'lapidary' style of > let us say Bunting. When Kleinzahler reconciles them, he creates > something all his own, and does so with an energy I find unequalled > by other living poets." Yes, nice blurb (though I don't know why Gunn has to advertise how few living poets he's familiar with)--but if we had a good typology of poetries in wide circulation, he could have been briefer: "mix of NYSchool and Xschool" (for whatever school Bunting is supposed to be in). Sure, as he has it is better stylistically--but for brevity and clarity, schools could come in handy; for instance, if the school Bunting is in were clearly defined and named somewhere, I--not familiar with Bunting's poetry--would likely better understand his description of AK's poetry. --Bob G. > > Entirely apart from whether I admire Kleinzahler's poetry (as I do) I find > this blurb exemplary--not just in its judicious > comparison-as-categorization, but in its equally judicious awareness ("we > associate," "let us say") of what such comparisons cannot do, where they > must inevitably fall short. Like metaphors (as Frost reminded us) that > inevitably break down when you push them too far, so too all taxonomies when > you cling too avidly too them. Or so it seems to me. > _______________________ > David Graham From gmcvay at patriot.net Sun Aug 26 15:14:46 2001 From: gmcvay at patriot.net (Gwyn McVay) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:14:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >>>like high school (not that I necessarily disagree with that perception.) In this corner, we have the blue jeans and bleached teeth bunch, and in the other corner, we have the 100-hole Doc Martens and morbidly pale bunch!<<< While we're schooling, I did want to quietly point out that some of us come by our pallor honestly, and wear Doc Martens (though not up to the hips) 'cause it's hard to find an orthopedic shoe that looks good... yet do not belong to the School of Vampire, Angst, and Dead Roses Poetry. (Not that there's anything *wrong* with that; just not my cuppa wormwood.) Signed, A Masonite * * = not a Mason From trbell at home.com Sun Aug 26 13:21:40 2001 From: trbell at home.com (trbell at home.com) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:21:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pigeon-holing: Or Poerty (& Language) Go Taxanomial References: <3B88D38C.19FD@nut-n-but.net> <004601c12e37$afda8fe0$18724342@twcny.rr.com> <3B890DF5.EFC3CFB6@ix.netcom.com> <3B890F22.7DECD81F@ix.netcom.com> <3B8911CC.4F10@nut-n-but.net> <001b01c12e58$97f80c60$ef7dbd18@win98> <3B894244.E49@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <021501c12e53$92ad9fe0$2e442718@ruthfd1.tn.home.com> I missed the original 'list' in this thread but would suspect the 'poetry of illness" is not on it? poetical taxonomies are usually about form rather than content or combinations of form and content. tom bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pigeon-holing: Or Poerty (& Language) Go Taxanomial > See? You try for a list of poetries and we get all kinds of > stuff on pigeon-holing, but not one addition to my list. Gahh! > > Daniel Zimmerman wrote: > > > Well, we might want to distinguish the red herring > > bird (the purely > > verbal creation of a featherless biped; see below) > > from the birds > > of different feathers. As for language that > > liberates us from the > > pigeonholing function, try metaphor > > > 1. as in featherless biped--a literal statement with > > metaphorical implications--or > > 2. my love is a rose--a metaphor which, because > > literally untrue, has little > > intrinsic force to keep anyone in whatever > > pigeonhole it might propose. > > (The pigeon won't fit in the hole. The dove has > > flown the cote.) > > I disagree. What a metaphor does is make a pigeonhole, in the > preceding example, one for loves that can be compared to red > roses. > > > Applied to poets, taxonomy shoots the messenger. I > > take it, Bob, that > > you apply it to poems (or types of poems). > > types of poems, yes. I try to keep stating that one poet > can be in many schools, by which I mean can have poems in > various schools. But most poets are significantly in at least > one school as poets, or makers of enough poems that fit the > school to be considered poets of that school. > > > Perhaps > > much of the > > resistance to your project results from conflating > > the poet with the > > poem (much as the construction of a red herring > > results from a > > conflation of the relevant with the less so). > > I think that's true. But there's also the fear of many poets, > I believe, of being found out. They think if their work can > be defined, they'll lose their magician badges or something. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at mail.ripon.edu Sun Aug 26 15:37:58 2001 From: grahamd at mail.ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:37:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pigeon Coo Blurb Message-ID: <200108261937.f7QJbGr40504@mx11.mx.voyager.net> Bob, I'm having a little trouble understanding why you have to advertise how few living poets you're familiar with, especially in a message that begins by faulting Thom Gunn for same. Seriously, I think you might have missed a point here. Or, to be fair, maybe we've reached a never-the-twain-shall-meet point. I would say that Gunn's deliberately loose, artfully qualified categorization of Kleinzahler's work is better than the shorthand you're looking for--precisely because such "vagueness" is *more accurate* to the messy complexity of the poetry. David Graham "Our moods do not believe in each other"--Emerson _______________________ David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu _______________________ ---------- >From: Bob Grumman >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pigeon Coo Blurb >Date: Sun, Aug 26, 2001, 2:06 PM > >> "The distinction of AK is that he has combined two opposed poetic >> modes. The first is the joky improvised speech we associate with >> O'Hara; the second the condensed, considered 'lapidary' style of >> let us say Bunting. When Kleinzahler reconciles them, he creates >> something all his own, and does so with an energy I find unequalled >> by other living poets." > >Yes, nice blurb (though I don't know why Gunn has to advertise how >few living poets he's familiar with)--but if we had a good typology >of poetries in wide circulation, he could have been briefer: "mix >of NYSchool and Xschool" (for whatever school Bunting is supposed >to be in). Sure, as he has it is better stylistically--but >for brevity and clarity, schools could come in handy; for instance, >if the school Bunting is in were clearly defined and named somewhere, >I--not familiar with Bunting's poetry--would likely better >understand his description of AK's poetry. > > --Bob G. > > >> >> Entirely apart from whether I admire Kleinzahler's poetry (as I do) I find >> this blurb exemplary--not just in its judicious >> comparison-as-categorization, but in its equally judicious awareness ("we >> associate," "let us say") of what such comparisons cannot do, where they >> must inevitably fall short. Like metaphors (as Frost reminded us) that >> inevitably break down when you push them too far, so too all taxonomies when >> you cling too avidly too them. Or so it seems to me. >> _______________________ >> David Graham > From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Aug 26 15:44:53 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:44:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pigeon-holing: Or Poerty (& Language) Go Taxanomial References: <3B88D38C.19FD@nut-n-but.net> <004601c12e37$afda8fe0$18724342@twcny.rr.com> <3B890DF5.EFC3CFB6@ix.netcom.com> <3B890F22.7DECD81F@ix.netcom.com> <3B8911CC.4F10@nut-n-but.net> <001b01c12e58$97f80c60$ef7dbd18@win98> <3B894244.E49@nut-n-but.net> <021501c12e53$92ad9fe0$2e442718@ruthfd1.tn.home.com> Message-ID: <3B8951B5.295C@nut-n-but.net> No, Tom, my list doesn't have poetry of illness. I believe names of schools should be based on formal considerations: what poems objectively, materially do. Because there are fewer formal poetry-making strategies than kinds of content. Content would be at the lowest level of typing, I would think--e.g., visual poem of such-and-such a size using such-and-such a tone about such-and-such a subject. Roughly. --Bob G. From halvard at earthlink.net Sun Aug 26 15:48:49 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 15:48:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pigeon Coo Blurb In-Reply-To: <200108261833.f7QIXQP41558@mx16.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: > Of course we poets are obsessed with our Adamic function: we're namers, > makers of meaning and anti-meaning and everything in between. We even like > to argue about whether we pigeon-hole things or not. Delicious. Yummy, indeed, David. I have no problem with pigeon-holing things actually, especially when there are practical (as opposed to theoretical/esthetic) reasons to do so. I don't really give a damn (sorry, Rhett) about how many kinds of poetry there are and how to name them, but I do, for example, care a lot about kinds of parking spots here in New York City. For example, there are those where the streetcleaners come through on Mondays and Thursday sometime between 11am and 2pm, where they come through between 8am and 11am on those days. And then the same goes for Tuesday and Fridays. New York folks with cars build their weeks and (some) their lives around such pigeon-holes, trying all the while to stay far enough away from the pigeon holes not to be decorated with pigeon guano. Blurbs, of course, also help one avoid the pigeon guano (sometimes). But Bob G. is aiming for a classification system that will encompass the entire known poetical universe. And in *Fence* a couple issues back David Kellogg in a piece called "The Self in the Poetic Field" developed an amusing quadripartite system that located poems/poems primarily in one of four quadrants--Tradition, Self, Community, and Innovation--and found that while many poets fit into one quadrant or another, some seemed to fit into more than one, and a few (he names Adrienne Rich, John Ashbery, Allen Ginsberg, Sylvia Plath, "and even" Elizabeth Bishop) transcend the four quadrants in the sense that they are seen (not necessarily by all) as belonging to all four quadrants. Fun to read, but also fun to forget all about. That's in *Fence* Fall/Winter 2000-01. Hal "England is the paradise of women, the purgatory of men, and the hell of horses." --John Florio (c. 1553-1625) Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Aug 26 16:08:08 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:08:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pigeon Coo Blurb References: <200108261937.f7QJbGr40504@mx11.mx.voyager.net> Message-ID: <3B895728.2998@nut-n-but.net> > >> "The distinction of AK is that he has combined two opposed poetic > >> modes. The first is the joky improvised speech we associate with > >> O'Hara; the second the condensed, considered 'lapidary' style of > >> let us say Bunting. When Kleinzahler reconciles them, he creates > >> something all his own, and does so with an energy I find unequalled > >> by other living poets." > Bob, I'm having a little trouble understanding why you have to > advertise how few living poets you're familiar with, especially > in a message that begins by faulting Thom Gunn for same. Not sure how I advertised how many living poets I'm unfamiliar with. My jab at Gunn was basically because I dislike generalities from authority about living poets since no one can know enough living poets to decide, for instance, what living poet has the most energy. Though Gunn did say, "I find," which sort of takes him off the hook since he didn't say he looked at many living poets' work. > Seriously, I think you might have missed a point here. > Or, to be fair, maybe we've reached a never-the-twain-shall-meet > point. I would say that Gunn's deliberately loose, artfully > qualified categorization of Kleinzahler's work is better than > the shorthand you're looking for--precisely because such "vagueness" > is *more accurate* to the messy complexity of the poetry. Basically what Gunn did was compare AK to two poets. Great, if the reader is familiar with the work of the two poets; if not, his having been able to say that AK's work was a mix of known school A and known school B would have been better if duller. Best, it seems to me, would be Gunn as is, but with an Internet list of poets that indicates which school(s) they're in. Then someone who knows O'Hara and Bunting can enjoy the blurb as is, and someone who doesn't know both, can go to the list and get a better idea of what Gunn is talking about. I don't think I'd want blurbs to make much use of schools; knowledge of schools should be silent, and keep anthologists from claiming that their anthologies cover the whole spectrum of current poetry when they don't, etc. Such knowledge, too, would make answering questions about what kind of poetry certain poets write in brief--when space or time is at a premium. --Bob G. From duemer at clarkson.edu Sun Aug 26 16:16:10 2001 From: duemer at clarkson.edu (Joseph Duemer) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 16:16:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry References: Message-ID: <00c501c12e6b$f2b96820$18724342@twcny.rr.com> Naming as a function of language is only accurate in so far as it is arbitrary; we long, though, for non-arbitrary namings, i.e., meanings. Meanings cannot be named. A purely Adamic language would contain no meanings. Language, especially poetic language, is indicative--it points toward the unsayable. A system of pigeonholes as it has been discussed here is simply a poor approximation of the social reality of poetry. The world hangs together, but not in such a rationally taxonomic manner; the world hangs together loosely & our systems of though serve best when they seek out what Wittgenstein called "family resemblances" among things. (Pigeonholing is a form of reification.) No single system can encompass even a simple phenomenon like schools of poetry (see William James on philosophical pluralism.) Though the metaphor of a "school" of poetry does name a family resemblance, it seems to me. The problem arises when we attempt to create a system--a taxonomy--that explains the relationships of these schools. jd jd ====================== Joseph Duemer School of Liberal Arts, 5750 Clarkson University Potsdam NY 13699 315.268.3967 ====================== From trbell at home.com Sun Aug 26 15:09:48 2001 From: trbell at home.com (trbell at home.com) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 14:09:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pigeon-holing: Or Poerty (& Language) Go Taxanomial References: <3B88D38C.19FD@nut-n-but.net> <004601c12e37$afda8fe0$18724342@twcny.rr.com> <3B890DF5.EFC3CFB6@ix.netcom.com> <3B890F22.7DECD81F@ix.netcom.com> <3B8911CC.4F10@nut-n-but.net> <001b01c12e58$97f80c60$ef7dbd18@win98> <3B894244.E49@nut-n-but.net> <021501c12e53$92ad9fe0$2e442718@ruthfd1.tn.home.com> <3B8951B5.295C@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <028401c12e62$adadb640$2e442718@ruthfd1.tn.home.com> I think I had in mind something a little broader here and perhaps I was referring to the process of 'making' poetry rather than just typology. it seems to me that there are poems that 'healed' in the process of writing them just as poems can 'heal' life rather than distracting from it. perhaps this is too broad an issue and i certainly don't have the terminology (if, in fact it exists) tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 2:44 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pigeon-holing: Or Poerty (& Language) Go Taxanomial > No, Tom, my list doesn't have poetry of illness. I believe names > of schools should be based on formal considerations: what poems > objectively, materially do. Because there are fewer formal > poetry-making strategies than kinds of content. Content would > be at the lowest level of typing, I would think--e.g., visual > poem of such-and-such a size using such-and-such a tone about > such-and-such a subject. Roughly. > > --Bob G. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Aug 26 20:25:35 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 20:25:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry References: <00c501c12e6b$f2b96820$18724342@twcny.rr.com> Message-ID: <3B89937F.7E3C@nut-n-but.net> > Naming as a function of language is only accurate in so far as it is > arbitrary; we long, though, for non-arbitrary namings, i.e., meanings. > Meanings cannot be named. A purely Adamic language would contain no > meanings. Language, especially poetic language, is indicative--it > points toward the unsayable. I'm afraid I don't understand all this, JD. To me, language is nothing but names, and each name is the simple meaning of what it names. More complex meanings arise from names' connecting with other names. I even go so far as to believe that anything that is unsayable is non-existent (with the caveat that by "sayable" I mean "sufficiently sayable" not "absolutely sayable"; in other words, no one can perfectly define anything, but everything, for me, can be defined adequately). > A system of pigeonholes as it has been discussed here is simply a poor > approximation of the social reality of poetry. A poor approximation is better than nothing. > The world hangs together, but not in such a rationally taxonomic > manner; the world hangs together loosely & our systems of thought > serve best when they seek out what Wittgenstein called "family > resemblances" among things. (Pigeonholing is a form of reification.) > No single system can encompass even a simple phenomenon like > schools of poetry (see William James on philosophical pluralism.) > Though the metaphor of a "school" of poetry does name a family > resemblance, it seems to me. The problem arises when we attempt to > create a system--a taxonomy--that explains the relationships of > these schools. I don't know what you mean about a taxonomy that explains; for me, a taxonomy describes. Anyway, I just want a typology, as I indicated before. I think I'm simply seeking family resemblances. The idea that poetry can be distinguished from water polo, say, but that various kinds of poetry cannot be usefully distinguished from one another seems to me nutty. Not that anyone seems to be saying exactly that, but that's where some seem headed. I find it rather amazing that poets seem to care so little about what I take to be the world of poetry. I'd be thrilled if someone named some school I was unfamiliar with and eager to know more about it; I get the impression that most others at New-Poetry either don't care about any poetries except the ones they're involved in, or are smugly certain that THEY are familiar with all the important poetries and needn't bother with whatever pseudo-poetries might turn up on a list like mine. --Bob G. From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Sun Aug 26 22:26:41 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 19:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry Message-ID: <20010827022641.B788436F9@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From moira_russell at hotmail.com Sun Aug 26 22:32:37 2001 From: moira_russell at hotmail.com (Moira Russell) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 18:32:37 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry Message-ID: What about anthologies which group poems by content? Although certainly not "taxonomies," interesting similarities and differences can be found that might not have been apparent before. In fact I think it's something of a shame poetry anthologies have become so rigidly classified (either by chronology or form). Something like "Palgrave's Golden Treasury" has all kinds of poems in it. An anthology of poetry on sickness might include everything from John Donne to Sylvia Plath's "Tulips" to contemporary poetry on AIDS -- now that could be interesting to read. I do think there's a big difference between saying "Frank O'Hara and Bunting" and "the New York School and X School." For one thing, it seems a bit insulting to the New York School poets, any and all of them, to say they "equal" Frank O'Hara in some weird taxonomical algebraic way (like "Sylvia Plath = 'Confessionalism'"). For another thing, linking the New York School poets together by whatever similarities they may share is, as someone else already pointed out, a lot less exact than saying "Frank O'Hara" if the poet being reviewed has more to do specifically with O'Hara than the New York Schools. It would be a bit like taking Dana Gioia or R.S. Gwynn or Marilyn Hacker or Molly Peacock et al et al to stand for the _entire_ "New Formalist/New Expansive Poetry" movement. The only real similarities about these poets is that they prefer to write in form. For all the rest of it, they're as individual as their fingerprints. Finally, it's a little annoying to see someone chide Thom Gunn for supposedly showing off his ignorance about living poets and then breezily admitting "Bunting, whoever he is." Thom Gunn may not be familiar with the living poets Bob Grumman likes, and vice versa. This doesn't suggest to me a grave deficiency of taxonomical knowledge in either poet. I don't know if having a grand sweeping taxonomy of all possible poetry in the universe is possible, let alone a good idea. Moira Russell Seattle, WA Wise Wretch! with Pleasures too refin'd to please; With too much Spirit to be e'er at ease; With too much Quickness ever to be taught; With too much Thinking to have common Thought: You purchase Pain with all that Joy can give, And die of nothing but a Rage to live. -- Alexander Pope _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp From trbell at home.com Sun Aug 26 20:24:28 2001 From: trbell at home.com (trbell at home.com) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 19:24:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry References: Message-ID: <02ee01c12e8e$a3619680$2e442718@ruthfd1.tn.home.com> I think it would be interesting as well. However, the only anthology like this I've seen that goes beyond a collection of "poems" by sick people is _Beyond Bedlam_ out of England a couple of years back. Any others? tom bell ----- Original Message ----- From: "Moira Russell" To: Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2001 9:32 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry > What about anthologies which group poems by content? Although certainly not > "taxonomies," interesting similarities and differences can be found that > might not have been apparent before. In fact I think it's something of a > shame poetry anthologies have become so rigidly classified (either by > chronology or form). From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Sun Aug 26 22:57:10 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 19:57:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Pigeon-holing: Or Poerty (& Language) Go Taxanomial Message-ID: <20010827025710.D67E32756@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Sun Aug 26 23:37:59 2001 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 23:37:59 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Pigeon-holing: Or Poerty (& Language) Go Taxanomial Message-ID: <136.ad5bb6.28bb1a97@aol.com> I'm wondering why this site sounds by exponential degrees more and more like an ill-mannered, bully-on-the-playground, testosterone-enriched pissing contest. I keep thinking I must be missing something--you know, an undercurrent of grace that maybe others have been able to locate but I can't--but I think I'm about ready to give up the search. It baffles me, utterly, why anyone--least of all poets and those concerned with poetry (to say nothing of adults)--would be interested in being calculatingly hurtful. The incessant, mean-spirited, smirking, holier-than-thouing is more than a little exasperating. It's rather disgusting, tell the truth, and says something about the slingers I'd just as soon not spend any more time worrying myself over. I have no illusions that those of you who make of this practice just so much sport will do any self-examining. Easier, less wear-and-tear on the psyche, to wave off this little diatribe as rubbish. Or pidgin. As you like. Know that it is heartfelt, as is my thanks to those of you who have gone out of your way to be welcoming. Exiting stage left. Jeffrey In a message dated 8/26/01 10:58:45 PM Eastern Daylight Time, CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com writes: > Jim, > > Could this poet be speaking "pidgin-English"? > > Bob C. > > --- jcervantes > > wrote: > > > >In all this, has anyone pointed out that pigeons don't sing? However, > >the sounds they do make might be like that of a certain type of > >pigeon-poet. > > > >- Jim > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From klvarnes at home.com Sun Aug 26 23:53:26 2001 From: klvarnes at home.com (Kathrine Varnes) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 22:53:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] bob & whee! In-Reply-To: <12c.3776c8d.28b5e3da@aol.com> Message-ID: > Such a fast moving list, here, that I will seem haunted by the pale > florescence of our last century when I thank Jeff for enlightening us on > etymology for bob and the illusory wheel. > > Such evident authority overwhelms theory 3, a gendered understanding of a male > bob and female wheel, working in harmony, we might say, to reproduce the form. > Misguided readers of both French feminists and arcane prosody will know how > the rest goes. > > Kathrine > > > It would be a terrible mistake, of course, to cruelly implicate the bob into > square dancing, as bobbing has been outlawed from civilized square dancing > since roughly the Third Crusade--except in Louisiana, where, as you know, > anything goes--in fact, that's where we originally got *laissez les bob-temps > roulez" (Les Mots au Go Go, Jean Paul (Jim Bob) Blaff D'Orsin, Fleche Press, > Aix-a-Year-en-Provence, p. 58.) > > So, in truth, Bob and Wheel have sometimes referred to distinct devices for > applying polish: the bob being one kind of thing, and the wheel quite > another. What you polish with a bob is, of course, a bob. Though you can also > buff with a bob, and you can bob in the buff, and in Louisiana, you can bob > WITH a consenting buff. But this is, you know, nothing but a fifth-tier > definition, not countenanced by Dante, and not at all what you're after, > either. > > Bob Dylan's _This Wheel's on Fire_ is often thought--mistakenly so--to mark > the etymology of this particular phraseology, linguistically speaking. Alas, > another false lead. No. The answer my friend is bloody obvious. The culprit > (as so often turns out in matters orthographic) is that pesky final letter > *l* -- which was never, ever meant to be an *l* but rather a (an) *!*. It all > makes sense when you see the phrase as *bob & whee!* which, naturally, refers > to the volta--you know, that little hemisemidemiquaver at the start of the > 9th line that separates the lyric part and the didactic finale of the > Shakespearean sonnet, many of its benefactors and most of its offspring. It > derives from the Bard's habit of biting into the fallen limb of an apple tree > while it lay aslant a stream--which he routinely did for inspiration or > refreshment immediately after completing his labors over the first two > quatrains (Shakespeare, the Missing Years. Hodbodkins. p. 81, n.12. > Stratford-Off-Off Avon Press, 1802.) > > Hope this helps. > > Jeffrey > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Mon Aug 27 00:44:14 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 21:44:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Pigeon-holing: Or Poerty (& Language) Go Taxanomial Message-ID: <20010827044414.61D2C36F9@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Mon Aug 27 00:51:27 2001 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 05:51:27 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] bob & whee! References: Message-ID: <009d01c12eb4$58cff820$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3> Re: [New-Poetry] bob & whee!What's this big thing about the bob-and-wheel? Thought the obvious answer was the Gawain Poem -- the major bits were the alliterative stanzas (bob), with a four-line short rhyming piece (wheel) at the end. Or have I missed something? Robin Hamilton. ----- Original Message ----- From: Kathrine Varnes To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 4:53 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] bob & whee! Such a fast moving list, here, that I will seem haunted by the pale florescence of our last century when I thank Jeff for enlightening us on etymology for bob and the illusory wheel. Such evident authority overwhelms theory 3, a gendered understanding of a male bob and female wheel, working in harmony, we might say, to reproduce the form. Misguided readers of both French feminists and arcane prosody will know how the rest goes. Kathrine It would be a terrible mistake, of course, to cruelly implicate the bob into square dancing, as bobbing has been outlawed from civilized square dancing since roughly the Third Crusade--except in Louisiana, where, as you know, anything goes--in fact, that's where we originally got *laissez les bob-temps roulez" (Les Mots au Go Go, Jean Paul (Jim Bob) Blaff D'Orsin, Fleche Press, Aix-a-Year-en-Provence, p. 58.) So, in truth, Bob and Wheel have sometimes referred to distinct devices for applying polish: the bob being one kind of thing, and the wheel quite another. What you polish with a bob is, of course, a bob. Though you can also buff with a bob, and you can bob in the buff, and in Louisiana, you can bob WITH a consenting buff. But this is, you know, nothing but a fifth-tier definition, not countenanced by Dante, and not at all what you're after, either. Bob Dylan's _This Wheel's on Fire_ is often thought--mistakenly so--to mark the etymology of this particular phraseology, linguistically speaking. Alas, another false lead. No. The answer my friend is bloody obvious. The culprit (as so often turns out in matters orthographic) is that pesky final letter *l* -- which was never, ever meant to be an *l* but rather a (an) *!*. It all makes sense when you see the phrase as *bob & whee!* which, naturally, refers to the volta--you know, that little hemisemidemiquaver at the start of the 9th line that separates the lyric part and the didactic finale of the Shakespearean sonnet, many of its benefactors and most of its offspring. It derives from the Bard's habit of biting into the fallen limb of an apple tree while it lay aslant a stream--which he routinely did for inspiration or refreshment immediately after completing his labors over the first two quatrains (Shakespeare, the Missing Years. Hodbodkins. p. 81, n.12. Stratford-Off-Off Avon Press, 1802.) Hope this helps. Jeffrey -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wjbat at conncoll.edu Sun Aug 26 21:02:48 2001 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 01:02:48 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pigeon-holing: Or Poerty (& Language) Go Taxanomial In-Reply-To: <136.ad5bb6.28bb1a97@aol.com> Message-ID: <20010827010248.026778@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> I had to unsub some weeks ago to accommodate summer travels; just signed back on and am struck (I guess that's the right word) by how stubborn rhetorical habits are. If you feel what you do is dismissed as "not poetry," of course it's attractive to widen and level the field by positing schools and species. If you feel that your work is dismissed unread because "we all know what happens in that kind of poem," it makes more sense to oppose them. There are probably a lot more of us in the latter category, so I can understand why by Bob G. needs to dig his heels in. But wouldn't it be more useful to consider why we're unsatisfied with how we're (not) read? Collocation of massive egos aside, you'd think anyone who had time to perpetrate these discussions would have time to read other people's poetry as well. Wendy, who's willing to be persuaded that she should just have kept her mouth shut and unsubbed again ====================== Wendy Battin wjbat at conncoll.edu Hey, if you can't stand Byzantine intrigue, get out of the Kabal. --Halvard Johnson From FanwoodJEL at aol.com Mon Aug 27 01:17:19 2001 From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com (FanwoodJEL at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 01:17:19 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Pigeon-holing: Or Poerty (& Language) Go Taxanomial Message-ID: <8f.f042df9.28bb31df@aol.com> Bob, This is not about me, or how I feel I've been treated--delusional or no. And it's not about whether I, personally, am welcome here. Rather, it's about whether anyone is truly welcome here. It's about tone, and the sarcastic nature of it. It's about a certain clubbishness, and, unless there are only ten or twelve list members, the almost certain fear and trembling the (let me guess) vast majority of the list seem to have about hazarding a post. And no wonder. Who enjoys getting sandbagged? This list--no list--needs a leading point scorer while everybody else sits on the bench. I'm more than willing to admire lively, provocative discussions on any subject. I'm all for them. I'm a big fan of lively, provocative discussions, without the overtones of nastiness and derisive undertow. If I'm delusional about this tone, then by backchannel response in the past hour, I'm in the company of far more delusional list-members. However, I'd think it more fitting to characterize this group as disillusioned list members--numbering, I should add, considerably in excess of those posting regularly to the list. Katherine, thanks so much for your post. I suggest, despite my continuing high dudgeon, that we not abandon the ship, but rather attempt, at least for a while, to give this list a more humane feel. I promise to answer your threads, and I urge all who have responded by backchannel, and those who would like to have lively, provocative discussions without having to wear protective gear, to contribute in the same spirit. Best to all, Jeffrey In a message dated 8/27/01 12:45:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com writes: > Fanwood, > > Chill out, nobody is out to hurt you. I am sorry that you have felt > offended, baffled too, but no hurt was intended, and certainly none was > "calculated" by my passing remark. I am not a "bully-on-the-playground." > And, I, frankly, cannot believe that anyone on this "site" is > "ill-mannered." There is no "contest, testoterone-enriched pissing," or > otherwise that we have been engaged in, just a lively, provocative > discussion on schools of poetry and whether they can be > "pigeon-holed" or not. This might be what you are missing. We are all > adults, playing with words as poets will do regardless of what school(s) we > may belong/not belong to. I propose that you are looking for > "undercurrents of grace" where they don't exist, (which may be why you are > not "able to locate" them.) > Furthermore, nothing could be more far-reaching from the truth than for you > to believe that I, or any other [New-Poetry] member is "mean-spirited," > "holier than thou," even if we, on occasion, grin, scowl, frown, or smirk. > You may have no "illusions," but, there could exist some delusions > regarding how you think you have been mistreated. I, for one, regret that > you feel you must not be welcome here. > > Bob Cobb > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trbell at home.com Sun Aug 26 23:05:06 2001 From: trbell at home.com (trbell at home.com) Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 22:05:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pigeon-holing: Or Poerty (& Language) Go Taxanomial References: <8f.f042df9.28bb31df@aol.com> Message-ID: <038a01c12ea5$13b69960$2e442718@ruthfd1.tn.home.com> I'm always amazed at how readily people seem to imagine hurt and warfare on a mail list, particularly reading tones into posts that just aren't there. I've been ob lists that were really hostile and encountered 'hateful' people but no than in 'real' life.. as this is in a sense a language list one would think a spade could be called a spade. tom bell ----- Original Message ----- From: FanwoodJEL at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 12:17 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Pigeon-holing: Or Poerty (& Language) Go Taxanomial Bob, This is not about me, or how I feel I've been treated--delusional or no. And it's not about whether I, personally, am welcome here. Rather, it's about whether anyone is truly welcome here. It's about tone, and the sarcastic nature of it. It's about a certain clubbishness, and, unless there are only ten or twelve list members, the almost certain fear and trembling the (let me guess) vast majority of the list seem to have about hazarding a post. And no wonder. Who enjoys getting sandbagged? This list--no list--needs a leading point scorer while everybody else sits on the bench. I'm more than willing to admire lively, provocative discussions on any subject. I'm all for them. I'm a big fan of lively, provocative discussions, without the overtones of nastiness and derisive undertow. If I'm delusional about this tone, then by backchannel response in the past hour, I'm in the company of far more delusional list-members. However, I'd think it more fitting to characterize this group as disillusioned list members--numbering, I should add, considerably in excess of those posting regularly to the list. Katherine, thanks so much for your post. I suggest, despite my continuing high dudgeon, that we not abandon the ship, but rather attempt, at least for a while, to give this list a more humane feel. I promise to answer your threads, and I urge all who have responded by backchannel, and those who would like to have lively, provocative discussions without having to wear protective gear, to contribute in the same spirit. Best to all, Jeffrey In a message dated 8/27/01 12:45:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com writes: Fanwood, Chill out, nobody is out to hurt you. I am sorry that you have felt offended, baffled too, but no hurt was intended, and certainly none was "calculated" by my passing remark. I am not a "bully-on-the-playground." And, I, frankly, cannot believe that anyone on this "site" is "ill-mannered." There is no "contest, testoterone-enriched pissing," or otherwise that we have been engaged in, just a lively, provocative discussion on schools of poetry and whether they can be "pigeon-holed" or not. This might be what you are missing. We are all adults, playing with words as poets will do regardless of what school(s) we may belong/not belong to. I propose that you are looking for "undercurrents of grace" where they don't exist, (which may be why you are not "able to locate" them.) Furthermore, nothing could be more far-reaching from the truth than for you to believe that I, or any other [New-Poetry] member is "mean-spirited," "holier than thou," even if we, on occasion, grin, scowl, frown, or smirk. You may have no "illusions," but, there could exist some delusions regarding how you think you have been mistreated. I, for one, regret that you feel you must not be welcome here. Bob Cobb -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Aug 27 08:47:03 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 08:47:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RIP Vicki Hearne Message-ID: AUG 27, 2001 Vicki Hearne, Who Saw Human Traits in Pets, Dies at 55 By HELEN VERONGOS Vicki Hearne, a writer who trained animals and used her poetry and prose to express her belief that pets possess courage, wisdom and intellect, died on Tuesday at the Connecticut Hospice in Branford, Conn. She was 55 and lived in Westbrook, Conn. The cause was lung cancer, family members said. Ms. Hearne, who trained animals and their owners at Silver Trails: The Animal Inn, turned her childhood love of dogs and horses into a life's work and the foundation of a philosophy of human and animal relations and communication that was articulated in her best-known book, "Adam's Task: Calling Animals by Name" (Knopf, 1986). In her writing she used real animals she had encountered to show that pets have not only an intellect, but also a desire to achieve and be challenged and a capacity for moral understanding. Michiko Kakutani, in a review in The New York Times, wrote that "Adam's Task" "emerges, at once, as an informed defense of animals' capacity for understanding and commitment and a philosophical meditation on the nature of learning, responsibility and language." Yi-Fu Tuan, in a review of "Adam's Task" in The New York Times Book Review, wrote that Ms. Hearne went "out of her way to test her reader's credulity." He cited the book's example of a pit bull named Belle, who, he wrote, was "capable of sizing people up `not as bite prospects, but as problems in moral philosophy and metaphysics.' " "After many excesses of this kind," he continued, "I, a person who seldom can size up another metaphysically, begin to feel so inferior that I find myself retaliating by refusing to grant even the management of a `happy grin' (as distinct from a happy smile?) to a puppy." And Ms. Hearne, addressing the topic from a different slant, wrote in 1984: "These days, there is a rule among scientists against attributing human traits to animals. There used to be a rule against attributing human traits to God. So, though the definition of anthropomorphism has changed, its role as a buttress supporting the intellectual establishment's fondest superstitions has remained the same." Ms. Hearne may be best remembered for her defense of the much- maligned pit bull in the 1980's, when the breed's presumed ability to fight to the death was the stuff of news and urban legend. In an opinion article for The Times, she noted that an untrained eye could not always make the distinction between a pit bull and related breeds and, further, that, despite myths about lethal double jaws, pit bulls bit people less often and less seriously than many other common pets like Labrador retrievers and cocker spaniels. In her poem "The Bull Terrier," she wrote: Their legs and backs Should seem to be Merely the motive Power for the low Broad, implacable Jaw. They will never Hurt a child and never Leave justice undone, They are justice. She became the human hero in the story of Bandit, a dog in Stamford, Conn., who took a bite out of an intruder and ended up sentenced to death, becoming a symbol in the battle of pet owners against ordinances that banned particular breeds of dogs or put the lives of dogs deemed vicious into the hands of officials who, Ms. Hearne posited, might have a broad definition of the word. Bandit, not a pit bull at all, but an American bulldog, endeared himself to Ms. Hearne immediately. "Even in the most bulldoggy" of pit bulls, she wrote, recalling the dog, "there is something ? a sprightliness in the stance, some suggestion of the possibilities of tap dancing and vaudeville, some impish gleam of the eye to suggest the terrier." Bandit escaped death after Ms. Hearne challenged the authorities and won custody of the dog for three months of training. Instead of a savage beast, she found a genteel nature she described as "terribly black tie." Ultimately, Bandit came to live with Ms. Hearne. Her account, "Bandit: Dossier of a Dangerous Dog," was published by HarperCollins in 1991, and her experiences with Bandit were the subject of a documentary film, "A Little Vicious." Victoria Elizabeth Hearne was born Feb. 13, 1946, in Austin, Tex. She worked as a self-employed animal trainer beginning in 1967. She earned a bachelor of arts degree in English at the University of California, Riverside, in 1969 and was a Stegner Fellow in Poetry at Stanford University during a year of study there. She worked as a lecturer in creative writing at the University of California, Riverside, from 1980 to 1984 and as an assistant professor of English at Yale from 1984 to 1986. From 1989 to 1995 she was a visiting fellow at the Institution for Social and Policy Studies at Yale. In addition to "Adam's Task," she was the author of "Animal Happiness" (HarperCollins, 1994) and a novel, "The White German Shepherd" (Atlantic Monthly Press, 1988); three volumes of poetry: "Nervous Horses" (University of Texas Press, 1980), "In the Absence of Horses" (Princeton University Press, 1984) and "The Parts of Light" (Johns Hopkins, 1994); and many essays and articles. She is survived by her father, Willie Hearne; her husband, Robert Tragesser; a daughter from a previous marriage, Colleen Mendelsohn; and a brother, James Hearne. Copyright 2001 The New York Times Company From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Aug 27 09:38:55 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 09:38:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems by others: Vicki Hearne, "St. Luke Painting the Virgin" Message-ID: St. Luke Painting the Virgin St. Luke's eyes are steady on the babe. I, insufficiently transfixed, Am led inexorably beyond Van der Weyden's (you call him "Roger," Just as you ought)--beyond the window Roger has set behind radiant St. Luke, peaceful knower, to gardens, And beyond them to find in the clear Distance the delicate city street Where the figures of humanity Consult the ground, their eyes helplessly On the details of history that Hold them there in the street as the laws Of perspective, not imperfectly, Hold the infant before the St.'s eyes. It is the beauty of these figures As background, as reinterpreted Landscape I cry for; to be landscape Is not to be at the center, not The first thing the painter, seizing his Focus, illuminated, and what Are we, unilluminated? What, To go on, is illumination For? In the painting, for instance, The atrocity is not in fact Visible on the streets but in the eyes Of the painter--St. Luke. The painter, Gazing only on the bright infant, Instead of out the window, reaches A conclusion not plainly implied In infant glee. Yet St. Luke's face is plainly Illuminated by what he sees Directly before him, while I look Over Roger's shoulder and out the Window. And weep, to see the city So delicate and outside, though I grant the mistake, the mistake of Weeping, that is, when perhaps I could Move subtly into the paint and stand Behind St. Luke. He looks calm enough. But I, seeing what he sees, would have No thought of Fridays, or windows, or Outsides of any sort; this is The essential weakness of eyes like Mine, to see, faced with a divine light, Nothing but divine light, which is why Landscapes, or whatever you paint Beyond the garden, become so central, Not to the conception, which is all Complete in what the St. sees, but To the training of the eye that is, After all, an action of painting And illuminations. There are those That descend to the street while the bright Neon sign about the square that says True Cigarets glows undiminished As the hosts of heaven. In Boston, Standing before this painting I thought, Even as I was transported, of Streets in general, the subway ride home, And the expanse of walks, all crowded, That lay between you and me at that Moment. I thought, in short, of you. We Have Roger to thank for this. With just The Infant before me I might have Stepped out of all those streets directly Into the light--only in my mind, Of course, thus forgetting the way Home. As it was I found my way through The shadows and arrived in your arms Only slightly bruised, and all because Roger kindly refrained from making A portrait of Christ in unrelieved Brilliance. Light is light. We are guided, Sometimes, more easily by the faint Revelations in the shapes shadows Suggest than by the blank expanses On the faces of stars. I find some Guidance, anyway, in my dark fears Of what lurks in the streets and come to See the light more clearly because I Have missed it so many times, many Hours. Gaze at the ground, then look up, Is my advice, and see light, at last, As precious because we find it In the darkness outside a garden Between the light and the world. --Vicki Hearne Hal Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Aug 27 09:52:45 2001 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 09:52:45 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] bob & whee! Message-ID: <138.b1a815.28bbaaad@cs.com> Did you ever discover the origin of "bob and wheel"? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From klvarnes at home.com Mon Aug 27 09:57:16 2001 From: klvarnes at home.com (Kathrine Varnes) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 08:57:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] bob & whee! In-Reply-To: <009d01c12eb4$58cff820$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3> Message-ID: > Hi Robin -- > > The bob is the refrain, actually, usually a short line, sometimes only two > syllables (so confirms Princeton P & P) the wheel is a mini poem, sort of ? > short rhyming lines used at the end of a stanza. In Gawain, the classic > example, the alliterative stanzas end with a bob and a rhyming wheel. > (Although Lew Turco of The Book of Forms says these are rarely refrains.) > Anyway, the question is not what bob and wheel are (assumed), but where the > terminology came from. Any hunches? > > Thanks for asking -- > > Kathrine > > > Robin asked: > What's this big thing about the bob-and-wheel? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From JforJames at aol.com Mon Aug 27 10:39:17 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:39:17 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry Message-ID: <86.ebe34a1.28bbb595@aol.com> Not really a taxonomy but Kenneth Rexroth's American Poetry in the 20th Century is a great read for its sweep as it tries to make sense of all the influences on modern/contemp poetry from the early years of the last century thru the 60s. (Published in '71.) I don't know if anyone other than Rexroth could pack in more names (famous, known, vaguely-remembered & just plain obscure) and movements into a single text and still make the reading of it "a story ride" (as the film makers say). Anyone know of a book like this that is more up-to-date? Finnegan From Thom424 at aol.com Mon Aug 27 11:03:04 2001 From: Thom424 at aol.com (Thom424 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:03:04 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry Message-ID: <104.85bad35.28bbbb28@aol.com> A PROFILE OF TWENTIETH CENTURY AMERICAN POETRY ed. Jack Myers & David Wojahn (Southern Illinois Univerity Press, 1991). May be out-of-print. A decade-by-decade account of American poetry & related movements, (@1900-1990s), with each decade's history "profile" written by a different writer/poet (Ed Folsom--intro & background; Roger Mitchell--1908-1920; Edward Hirsch--1920s; Michael Heller--1930s; Richard jackson--1940s; Mark Doty--1960s; Tim Seibles--African-American Poetry, Leslie Ullman--1960s; Kate Daniels--Women's Movement in Am. Poetry; Jonatrhan Holden--1970-90s. As usual, Jonathan Holden's essay ("American Poetry: 1970-1990") is clearly written, succinct, and with lots of names, poems & book titles. A good collection to use in upper-division/graduate-level courses where breadth, range & scope are needed. I've used it as a text in my MFA-level poetry writing classes, as well as in a senior-level Am-Lit seminar in contemporary Am. poetry. Students seemed grateful to have this information/view of contemporary American poetry spelled out for them in this manner. By no means definitive or biblical (nor do i think it's meant to be either of these), it's certainly a good springboard into the whole discussion of schools, traditions, theories, aesthetics of contemp. poetry. Good end notes for each chapter, as well as an overall bibliography. Thom Tammaro Moorhead, MN From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Mon Aug 27 10:55:22 2001 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:55:22 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] bob & whee! References: Message-ID: <013c01c12f09$47d16180$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3> Re: [New-Poetry] bob & whee!Katherine: You're right -- I screwed up totally on this one (late at night) and managed to turn the bob on its heel. But I can't think of anywhere +else+ it occurs [in English] before the Gawain poem. Certainly not in classical alliterative, and not even [am I right?] in _Pearl_ (leaving aside whether _Pearl_ was written by the same guy [or gal] who wrote _Gawain_). Mixing rhyme with alliteration is unusual in English (it's a bit more common in the Scottish tradition). Zeroing in and (wildly) guessing, I'd think we're looking at something from an Anglo-Norman tradition. What's for sure? The +form+ doesn't occur in English before Gawain. The +term+ gets attached to the bits at the end of the fitts (sorry, stanzas, but I couldn't resist the internal rhyme) in Gawain. (so at the end of stanza one: wyth wynne [BOB] Where werre and wrake and wonder Bi sythes has wont thereinne, And oft bothe blysse and blunder Ful skete has skyfed synne. [WHEEL] -- so in the wheel, you have BOTH rhyme and alliteration.) I'd go with Turco on this, that whatever else the bob is, it isn't a refrain [refrains come at the end of stanzas, and (at least semi) repeat words]. It seems as if there should be a straightforward answer, but if PEPP doesn't say ... Uh, just checked PEPP (1993) which says best known example is Gawain, the form relatively common in Middle Scots. The author of the 1993 paragraph is Terry Brogan, which makes it about as authoritative as you can get. On a quick check, the 1974 edition uses the term "refrain", but Brogan in 1993 doesn't. Lashings of references, but the origin of the term would seem to lock into Guest in 1838, or Saintsbury. Maybe something in Brogan's _Versification: A Bibliographical Guide_: http://sizcol.u-shizuoka-ken.ac.jp/versif/VerseBiblio.html -- but as it's user-unfriendly, and a slow loader, I'm not about to check. Robin (If you're using the 1974 edition of PEPP, it's worth upgrading to 1993, if only for the rewritten sections on metrics by Brogan.) From: Kathrine Varnes To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 2:57 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] bob & whee! Hi Robin -- The bob is the refrain, actually, usually a short line, sometimes only two syllables (so confirms Princeton P & P) the wheel is a mini poem, sort of - short rhyming lines used at the end of a stanza. In Gawain, the classic example, the alliterative stanzas end with a bob and a rhyming wheel. (Although Lew Turco of The Book of Forms says these are rarely refrains.) Anyway, the question is not what bob and wheel are (assumed), but where the terminology came from. Any hunches? Thanks for asking -- Kathrine Robin asked: What's this big thing about the bob-and-wheel? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msnider at mindspring.com Mon Aug 27 11:24:33 2001 From: msnider at mindspring.com (Michael Snider) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:24:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] bob & whee! In-Reply-To: <009d01c12eb4$58cff820$a0b5fea9@w4e4b3> Message-ID: <200108271528.LAA31642@granger.mail.mindspring.net> In Gawain the "bob" is the two-syllable bit just between the alliterative section and the rhyming wheel. On many bonnkes ful brode Bretayn he settez [last alliterative line of first section] wyth wynne, [the bob] Where werre and wrake and wonder [the wheel] Bi sythes hatz wont thereinne And oft bothe blysses and blunder Ful skete hatz skyfted synne. I don't know how to make yoghs and thorns that will appear correctly on wintel machines. OED lists the prosodic "wheel" as one of the metaphorical extensions of the word's root meaning, and says the first line is called a "bob" when it is very short. The first citation is from 1838 -- no telling what the Gawain poet called it. On Monday, August 27, 2001, at 12:51 AM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > What's this big thing about the bob-and-wheel? > ? > Thought the obvious answer was the Gawain Poem -- the major bits were > the alliterative stanzas (bob), with a four-line short rhyming piece > (wheel) at the end. > ? > Or have?I missed something? > ? > Robin Hamilton. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kathrine Varnes > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 4:53 AM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] bob & whee! > > Such a fast moving list, here, that I will seem haunted by the pale > florescence of our last century when I thank Jeff for enlightening us > on etymology for bob and the illusory wheel. > > Such evident authority overwhelms theory 3, a gendered understanding of > a male bob and female wheel, working in harmony, we might say, to > reproduce the form. Misguided readers of both French feminists and > arcane prosody will know how the rest goes. > > Kathrine > > > It would be a terrible mistake, of course, to cruelly implicate the bob > into > square dancing, as bobbing has been outlawed from civilized square > dancing > since roughly the Third Crusade--except in Louisiana, where, as you > know, > anything goes--in fact, that's where we originally got *laissez les > bob-temps > roulez" (Les Mots au Go Go, Jean Paul (Jim Bob) Blaff D'Orsin, Fleche > Press, > Aix-a-Year-en-Provence, p. 58.) > > So, in truth, Bob and Wheel have sometimes referred to distinct devices > for > applying polish: the bob being one kind of thing, and the wheel quite > another. What you polish with a bob is, of course, a bob. Though you > can also > buff with a bob, and you can bob in the buff, and in Louisiana, you can > bob > WITH a consenting buff. But this is, you know, nothing but a fifth-tier > definition, not countenanced by Dante, and not at all what you're after, > either. > > Bob Dylan's _This Wheel's on Fire_ is often thought--mistakenly so--to > mark > the etymology of this particular phraseology, linguistically speaking. > Alas, > another false lead. No. The answer my friend is bloody obvious. The > culprit > (as so often turns out in matters orthographic) is that pesky final > letter > *l* -- which was never, ever meant to be an *l* but rather a (an) *!*. > It all > makes sense when you see the phrase as *bob & whee!* which, naturally, > refers > to the volta--you know, that little hemisemidemiquaver at the start of > the > 9th line that separates the lyric part and the didactic finale of the > Shakespearean sonnet, many of its benefactors and most of its > offspring. It > derives from the Bard's habit of biting into the fallen limb of an > apple tree > while it lay aslant a stream--which he routinely did for inspiration or > refreshment immediately after completing his labors over the first two > quatrains (Shakespeare, the Missing Years. Hodbodkins. p. 81, n.12. > Stratford-Off-Off Avon Press, 1802.) > > Hope this helps. > > Jeffrey > From GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU Mon Aug 27 11:30:04 2001 From: GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU (Graham, David) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:30:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Schools of Poetry Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDEA2@mail.ripon.edu> Another favorite of mine is Richard Gray's *American Poetry of the Twentieth Century*, from Longman. In structure it's a standard historical overview, and thus not minutely detailed especially toward the present day. But he sorts "movements" and "schools" out about as sensibly & nonreductively as I've seen done; and he is particularly strong on tracing the 19th century roots of Modernism. He also casts a relatively wide net, as these things go. Unlike the Myers/Wojahn book (which I like) it has all the advantages & disadvantages of a single author perspective, too. Also fairly dated these days but still valuable, I think, are the various surveys by M. L. Rosenthal, whose titles are escaping me right now. David Graham =================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu =================== > ---------- > From: Thom424 at aol.com > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 10:03 AM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry > > A PROFILE OF TWENTIETH CENTURY AMERICAN POETRY ed. Jack Myers & David > Wojahn > (Southern Illinois Univerity Press, 1991). May be out-of-print. > > A decade-by-decade account of American poetry & related movements, > (@1900-1990s), with each decade's history "profile" written by a different > > writer/poet (Ed Folsom--intro & background; Roger Mitchell--1908-1920; > Edward > Hirsch--1920s; Michael Heller--1930s; Richard jackson--1940s; Mark > Doty--1960s; Tim Seibles--African-American Poetry, Leslie Ullman--1960s; > Kate > Daniels--Women's Movement in Am. Poetry; Jonatrhan Holden--1970-90s. As > usual, Jonathan Holden's essay ("American Poetry: 1970-1990") is clearly > written, succinct, and with lots of names, poems & book titles. > > > A good collection to use in upper-division/graduate-level courses where > breadth, range & scope are needed. I've used it as a text in my MFA-level > poetry writing classes, as well as in a senior-level Am-Lit seminar in > contemporary Am. poetry. Students seemed grateful to have this > information/view of contemporary American poetry spelled out for them in > this > manner. By no means definitive or biblical (nor do i think it's meant to > be > either of these), it's certainly a good springboard into the whole > discussion > of schools, traditions, theories, aesthetics of contemp. poetry. Good end > notes for each chapter, as well as an overall bibliography. > > Thom Tammaro > Moorhead, MN > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From JforJames at aol.com Mon Aug 27 11:40:18 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:40:18 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry Message-ID: <10.11990ea5.28bbc3e2@aol.com> In a message dated 8/26/01 10:33:29 PM Eastern Daylight Time, moira_russell at hotmail.com writes: > For one thing, it seems a > bit insulting to the New York School poets, any and all of them, to say they > > "equal" Frank O'Hara in some weird taxonomical algebraic way (like "Sylvia > Plath = 'Confessionalism'"). For another thing, linking the New York School > > poets together by whatever similarities they may share is, as someone else > already pointed out, a lot less exact than saying "Frank O'Hara" if the poet > > being reviewed has more to do specifically with O'Hara than the New York > Schools. It would be a bit like taking Dana Gioia or R.S. Gwynn or Marilyn > Hacker or Molly Peacock et al et al to stand for the _entire_ "New > Formalist/New Expansive Poetry" movement. The only real similarities about > these poets is that they prefer to write in form. For all the rest of it, > they're as individual as their fingerprints. Moira, Frank O'Hara = New York School seems to work for me as a synecdoche. It's not precise but serviceable... I think we need shorthand methods like this for organizing schools/movements/currents...otherwise discussion would be slower and perhaps even sloppier. I agree it's important to look through the organizing rubric and take notice of how different the underlying pieces are... like peering into a button box the variety is staggering if one looks closely...& often a spare bolt or a piece of beach glass will find its way into the button box. Finnegan From halvard at earthlink.net Mon Aug 27 11:48:08 2001 From: halvard at earthlink.net (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 11:48:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry In-Reply-To: <10.11990ea5.28bbc3e2@aol.com> Message-ID: I'm all for slower and sloppier. Hal "Flotsam, please, and a side order of jetsam." Halvard Johnson =============== email: halvard at earthlink.net website: http://home.earthlink.net/~halvardjohnson > It's not precise but serviceable... > I think we need shorthand methods like this for > organizing schools/movements/currents...otherwise > discussion would be slower and perhaps even sloppier. From JforJames at aol.com Mon Aug 27 13:12:57 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 13:12:57 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry's Power Against Intolerance Message-ID: <119.3c84084.28bbd999@aol.com> Subject: FW: NYTimes.com Article: Poetry's Power Against Intolerance Poetry's Power Against Intolerance by SEAMUS HEANEY http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/26/opinion/26HEAN.html?ex=999831207&ei=1&en=e c35a21f180cdc79 From trbell at home.com Mon Aug 27 11:16:49 2001 From: trbell at home.com (trbell at home.com) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:16:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry's Power Against Intolerance References: <119.3c84084.28bbd999@aol.com> Message-ID: <00af01c12f0b$4b721d00$2e442718@ruthfd1.tn.home.com> I found the story somewhat confusing. It seemed to be more about the character of some poets rather than poetry. He also says the original of Milosz' poem is ironic but then doesn't expand on this? I think half the piece was edited out. tom ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 12:12 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry's Power Against Intolerance > Subject: FW: NYTimes.com Article: Poetry's Power Against Intolerance > > Poetry's Power Against Intolerance > by SEAMUS HEANEY > > http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/26/opinion/26HEAN.html?ex=999831207&ei=1&en=e > c35a21f180cdc79 > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Aug 27 16:07:50 2001 From: BobGrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 16:07:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Schools of Poetry References: <10.11990ea5.28bbc3e2@aol.com> Message-ID: <3B8AA896.385@nut-n-but.net> > Frank O'Hara = New York School seems to work > for me as a synecdoche. It's not precise but serviceable... > I think we need shorthand methods like this for > organizing schools/movements/currents...otherwise > discussion would be slower and perhaps even sloppier. > I agree it's important to look through the organizing rubric > and take notice of how different the underlying pieces are... > like peering into a button box the variety is staggering > if one looks closely...& often a spare bolt or a piece > of beach glass will find its way into the button box. > Finnegan Absolutely. I find it dismaying that anything so obvious has to be stated. --Bob G. From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Mon Aug 27 17:44:40 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 14:44:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Toot, toot! Message-ID: <20010827214440.2B77B2755@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From tadrichards at prodigy.net Mon Aug 27 17:48:15 2001 From: tadrichards at prodigy.net (theoldmole) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 17:48:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Toot, toot! References: <20010827214440.2B77B2755@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <003501c12f41$fadaaf60$6401a8c0@hvc.rr.com> Congrats, Bob Tad Richards "Well said, old mole." The Old Mole Wm. Shakespeare, Hamlet of the MoleNet Act I, Scene 5 http://pages.prodigy.net/tadrichards ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert R.Cobb" To: Sent: Monday, August 27, 2001 5:44 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Toot, toot! > [New Poetry], > > I received word that a drawing, "Jon's Walk," which I have submitted to "New Scriblerus Magazine," will be printed in their inaugural issue, September 1, 2001. > > Bob Cobb > > Cam Fraser > Editor-in-Chief, New Scriblerus Magazine > 3-5 Humanities Centre > University of Alberta > Edmonton, Alberta, Canada > T6G 2E5 > fax: (780) 459-8242 > > == > Poetry Catamaran > > "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" > > Robert R. Cobb > AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. > http://rrcobb.tripod.com > > _____________________________________________________________ > ----- > Check out my portfolio at www.talentx.com > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Mon Aug 27 18:01:36 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 15:01:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Toot, toot! Message-ID: <20010827220136.ABFC236F9@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From msnider at mindspring.com Mon Aug 27 18:18:04 2001 From: msnider at mindspring.com (Michael Snider) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:18:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Toot, toot! In-Reply-To: <20010827214440.2B77B2755@sitemail.everyone.net> Message-ID: <200108272221.SAA08100@johnson.mail.mindspring.net> Congratulations! On Monday, August 27, 2001, at 05:44 PM, Robert R.Cobb wrote: > [New Poetry], > > I received word that a drawing, "Jon's Walk," which I have submitted to > "New Scriblerus Magazine," will be printed in their inaugural issue, > September 1, 2001. > > Bob Cobb > > Cam Fraser > Editor-in-Chief, New Scriblerus Magazine > 3-5 Humanities Centre > University of Alberta > Edmonton, Alberta, Canada > T6G 2E5 > fax: (780) 459-8242 > > == > Poetry Catamaran > > "Just how advanced a poetic craft need be to sail along the'known > mainstream' down to the poetic sea?" > > Robert R. Cobb > AMONG FRIENDS, original art and poetry. > http://rrcobb.tripod.com > > _____________________________________________________________ > ----- > Check out my portfolio at www.talentx.com > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From msnider at mindspring.com Mon Aug 27 18:21:13 2001 From: msnider at mindspring.com (Michael Snider) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:21:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] shameless self-promotion Message-ID: <200108272224.SAA01695@mclean.mail.mindspring.net> Candice, and anyone else in the Triangle area of North Carolina, my band is playing this Thursday at the Hideaway on Hillsborough St, where the Studio theaters used to be. It's jug-band, old-time, tin pan alley, Irish, odd covers, and originals -- my sister calls it post-punk folk music. We'll start a little after 10 -- there's a freee movie first, and no cover for our gig (but you can throw money). From klvarnes at home.com Tue Aug 28 00:29:57 2001 From: klvarnes at home.com (Kathrine Varnes) Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:29:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] bob & whee! In-Reply-To: <200108271528.LAA31642@granger.mail.mindspring.net> Message-ID: Thanks to all for bob and wheel notes -- and esp to Robin for justifying yet more expenditure on books. Seems that a connection to dancing is getting the most backchannel votes. Curious. Doesn't anyone admit publicly to dancing anymore? Am very grateful, seriously, for the rock-flipping. It's the sort of question one thinks _should_ have a firm answer, but -- then, again, I've been reading Plato and the rest, which distorts everything into ghost-like absolutes. Had read it before, but was again astonished at the "poetry will turn our soldiers into girls" argument, and how the honeyed muse is figured as both smothering mother and seductress. (We should be so lucky.) Kathrine From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Tue Aug 28 13:50:57 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 13:50:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Tower Message-ID: <3B8BDA00.37206C17@ix.netcom.com> The Tower (On defending my theory of the brain being like an old phone switchboard or, perhaps, mumblypegs) by Yaso Adiodi O! On this Tower of Squabbull I've pecked a peckish hole, Where I serve a diet of half-masticated pigeons And expect the friery to swallow them whole. As all linguists, who've run afoul Of a stuffed owl, Know; If I move A to B, Then B its going to be. And if I move B to A What more do I have to say... And if I move T to A Or A to T I guarantee you won't glimpse an P. Nosiree; It's all T & A In the science of pigeonholery. Cause language is commutative Like payback at Dien Bien Phu Or like 1+1=2 And if you read old B.L. Whorf Your just a literate fool. And you can't see my point Even with my nose out of joint. For the hole left behind Drying up my mind Is a void amplifying my risible rant. From alphavil at ix.netcom.com Tue Aug 28 15:08:34 2001 From: alphavil at ix.netcom.com (R.Gancie/C.Parcelli) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 15:08:34 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The efficacy of categories References: <3B8BDA00.37206C17@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: <3B8BEC32.C99266A@ix.netcom.com> I would just like to say that I have nothing against what Bob Grumman is doing. In and of itself, it is harmless enough. The effort and reflection that Bob puts into his project will, in any number of ways, ultimately be reflected in the quality of the project itself. Therefore, when Bob attempted to step outside his own wholesale assumptions about stylistic taxomonomies and provide some explanatory justification for what he was doing, we were greeted with his "language as pigeon-hole" thesis. This hardly impressed the 'poets' on THIS list. Its difficult to imagine a philosopher of language, a cognitive scientist, A.I. engineer, a linguist etc, much less a serious poet, encountering this statement and not greeting it with amusement and/or contempt. By extension since its referent is poetry this already battered and belittled form, in some small measure, suffers again from this lack of reflection, learning and direction. CP P.S. In no way should the perceived utility of taxonomies be confused with the metaphorical conjurations of 'pigeon-holing.' Metaphors are not intended to be categorical, a point alluded to by a number of people on this list. Hence, the legitimacy of both sides of this argument. I objected solely to the characterization of language as "pigeon-holing." "R.Gancie/C.Parcelli" wrote: > The Tower (On defending my theory of the brain being like an old phone > switchboard or, perhaps, mumblypegs) > > by Yaso Adiodi > > O! On this Tower of Squabbull > I've pecked a peckish hole, > Where I serve a diet of half-masticated pigeons > And expect the friery to swallow them whole. > > As all linguists, who've run afoul > Of a stuffed owl, > Know; If I move A to B, > Then B its going to be. > And if I move B to A > What more do I have to say... > > And if I move T to A > Or A to T > I guarantee > you won't glimpse an P. > Nosiree; It's all T & A > In the science of pigeonholery. > > Cause language is commutative > Like payback at Dien Bien Phu > Or like 1+1=2 > And if you read old B.L. Whorf > Your just a literate fool. > > And you can't see my point > Even with my nose out of joint. > For the hole left behind > Drying up my mind > Is a void amplifying my risible rant. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From JforJames at aol.com Tue Aug 28 21:44:52 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2001 21:44:52 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Watershed Poetry Festival Message-ID: <152.10967a.28bda314@aol.com> From MillB at aol.com Wed Aug 29 10:36:24 2001 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 10:36:24 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Revision Message-ID: Greetings: Due to the fact that my mailbox empties itself when it gets to a certain point, I lost the whole string of Revision postings (which I wanted to use for my class). Did anyone collect these postings? Are they archived? Many thanks, Mill From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu Wed Aug 29 12:12:33 2001 From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Prentiss, Amber) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 12:12:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Revision Message-ID: The New-Poetry archives are at: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/ It lists a collection going back to February. Luck with your class! -Amber -----Original Message----- From: MillB at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: 8/29/2001 10:36 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Revision Greetings: Due to the fact that my mailbox empties itself when it gets to a certain point, I lost the whole string of Revision postings (which I wanted to use for my class). Did anyone collect these postings? Are they archived? Many thanks, Mill _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From rkubie at mail.pratt.lib.md.us Wed Aug 29 15:35:44 2001 From: rkubie at mail.pratt.lib.md.us (Rachel Kubie) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 15:35:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: PUB: beloit poetry journal call for poets under 25 (fwd) Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 10:31:20 -0400 From: Reginald Harris To: rkubie at epfl.net Subject: Fwd: PUB: beloit poetry journal call for poets under 25 >From: Kalamu ya Salaam >Reply-To: kalamu at aol.com >To: e-drum at topica.com >Subject: PUB: beloit poetry journal call for poets under 25 >Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2001 12:51:42 EDT > >============================================================ >Good, Better, BEST! What's better than a year's subscription >to Ladies' Home Journal? Only a FREE year's subscription! >Check out this great offer now! >http://click.topica.com/caaacQ1bUrD3obVTpjHa/TopOffers >============================================================ > > >>PUB: beloit poetry journal call for poets under 25 >======================================= > >THE BELOIT POETRY JOURNAL > >24 Berry Cove Road >Lamoine, ME 04605 >Tel: (207)667-5598 >www.bpj.org > >Poetry journal in its 50th year of publication > >Terms: Accepting work by poets under 25 for Spring, 2002 issue. Any form, >length or style. > >Submissions: Include name, address and "Poets Under Twenty-Five" on each page >of submission. Include SASE large enough and with sufficient postage for >return of your work. Those chosen for publication will be notified by >November 1. For more information, see web site or contact Marion Stocking at >phone number above. > >Needs: "We seek only unpublished poems or translations of poems not already >available in English. The magazine is copyrighted, with rights reverting to >the poet on publication." > >Deadline: Submit by October 1, 2001. > >------------------------------------------------------------ >Find Out What OVER 200,000 other people already know! > http://www.AikensLaughs.com >We're Not Leaving ANYONE out! Come Join While You Can! > >############################################# >this is e-drum, a listserv providing information of interests to black writers and diverse supporters worldwide. e-drum is moderated by kalamu ya salaam (kalamu at aol.com). >---------------------------------- >to subscribe to e-drum send a blank email to: >e-drum-subscribe at topica.com >--------------------------------------------- >to get off the e-drum listserv send a blank email to: >e-drum-unsubscribe at topica.com >---------------------------------------------- >to read past messages or search the archives, go to: >http://www.topica.com/lists/e-drum > >==^================================================================ >EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bUrD3o.bVTpjH >Or send an email To: e-drum-unsubscribe at topica.com >This email was sent to: rmharris2001 at hotmail.com > >T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! >http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register >==^================================================================ > > > ___________________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com From aprentiss at agnesscott.edu Wed Aug 29 19:31:44 2001 From: aprentiss at agnesscott.edu (Prentiss, Amber) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 19:31:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Off-Topic: Nautical Folklore? Message-ID: If anyone knows of an even semi-comprehensive anthology of nautical folklore, please tell me of it! -Amber From wjbat at conncoll.edu Wed Aug 29 19:44:37 2001 From: wjbat at conncoll.edu (Wendy Battin) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 19:44:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Off-Topic: Nautical Folklore? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20010829194437.016237@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> Prentiss, Amber wrote: >If anyone knows of an even semi-comprehensive anthology of nautical >folklore, please tell me of it! Amber, Check out the Mystic Seaport site, http://www.mysticseaport.org/welcome.html See especially *The Pilot Guide: A Digital Library for Maritime Studies* under Collections & Research. Wendy in Mystic From cstroffo at earthlink.net Thu Aug 30 01:37:42 2001 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 22:37:42 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: SCYLLA QUESTION References: <20010827010248.026778@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> Message-ID: <3B8DD126.B8035FC9@earthlink.net> Hello, I have a spellin question for those who have a bigger dictionary than I--- I am trying to avoid the use of the word "scylla" in a poem, so thought I could use a word I really thought exists---I've heard it somewhere, saw it somewhere years ago---the word is something like "DARDANELLES" or "DARDANALS" in my little dictionary, there is a variation on it, or actually probably the root of which the word I'm looking for is a variation--- DARDAN and DARDANIAN, which is trojan, so in the ball park---but isn't there something there, near there called "the dardan?ls (sic)? that means something, or at least connotes something, like "dire straits" (if not Mark Knopler in a condom...) Any help would be greatly appreciated..... Chris From bardo at optonline.net Thu Aug 30 06:25:22 2001 From: bardo at optonline.net (Daniel Zimmerman) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 06:25:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: SCYLLA QUESTION References: <20010827010248.026778@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> <3B8DD126.B8035FC9@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <000801c1313e$13dd7b20$ef7dbd18@win98> Chris, Check out the amazing http://yourdictionary.com/ Dardanelles refers to the Hellespont, the (Turkish) strait between the Sea of Marmara and the Aegean. Byron swam it. Dardan or Dardanian means Trojan, though Troy lay somewhat down the coast from the Hellespont. 'Dire straits' might derive from the Strait of Messina between Sicily and Reggio di Calabria, Italy's toe-- the site of Scylla, a headland on the Calabrian side opposite the whirlpool Charybdis. Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino To: ; Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 1:37 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: SCYLLA QUESTION > > > Hello, I have a spellin question for those who have a bigger dictionary than > I--- > > I am trying to avoid the use of the word "scylla" in a poem, so thought > I could use a word I really thought exists---I've heard it somewhere, saw it > somewhere > years ago---the word is something like "DARDANELLES" or "DARDANALS" > in my little dictionary, there is a variation on it, or actually probably > the root > of which the word I'm looking for is a variation--- > DARDAN and DARDANIAN, which is trojan, so in the ball park---but isn't > there something there, near there called "the dardan?ls (sic)? that means > something, or at least connotes something, like "dire straits" (if not Mark > Knopler in a condom...) > > Any help would be greatly appreciated..... > > Chris > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From cstroffo at earthlink.net Thu Aug 30 07:41:24 2001 From: cstroffo at earthlink.net (Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 04:41:24 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: SCYLLA QUESTION References: <20010827010248.026778@oak.cc.conncoll.edu> <3B8DD126.B8035FC9@earthlink.net> <000801c1313e$13dd7b20$ef7dbd18@win98> Message-ID: <3B8E2663.7F552D7E@earthlink.net> thanks dan---- Daniel Zimmerman wrote: > Chris, > > Check out the amazing http://yourdictionary.com/ > > Dardanelles refers to the Hellespont, the (Turkish) > strait between the Sea of Marmara and the Aegean. > Byron swam it. Dardan or Dardanian means Trojan, > though Troy lay somewhat down the coast from > the Hellespont. > > 'Dire straits' might derive from the Strait of > Messina between Sicily and Reggio di Calabria, > Italy's toe-- > the site of Scylla, a headland on the Calabrian side > opposite the whirlpool Charybdis. > > Dan > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Chris Stroffolino Stroffolino > > To: ; > > Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2001 1:37 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: SCYLLA QUESTION > > > > > > > Hello, I have a spellin question for those who > have a bigger dictionary than > > I--- > > > > I am trying to avoid the use of the word "scylla" > in a poem, so thought > > I could use a word I really thought exists---I've > heard it somewhere, saw it > > somewhere > > years ago---the word is something like > "DARDANELLES" or "DARDANALS" > > in my little dictionary, there is a variation on > it, or actually probably > > the root > > of which the word I'm looking for is a > variation--- > > DARDAN and DARDANIAN, which is trojan, so in the > ball park---but isn't > > there something there, near there called "the > dardan?ls (sic)? that means > > something, or at least connotes something, like > "dire straits" (if not Mark > > Knopler in a condom...) > > > > Any help would be greatly appreciated..... > > > > Chris > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com Thu Aug 30 09:52:12 2001 From: CobbCoStudioArts at pro.talentx.com (Robert R.Cobb) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 06:52:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: SCYLLA QUESTION Message-ID: <20010830135212.9BFC53ED3@sitemail.everyone.net> An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available URL: From MillB at aol.com Thu Aug 30 10:25:33 2001 From: MillB at aol.com (MillB at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:25:33 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Off-Topic: Nautical Folklore? Message-ID: <39.19db0ffc.28bfa6dd@aol.com> Amber: Encyclopedia of Nautical Knowledge (McEwen and Lewis) Dictionary of Shipping International Business Trade Terms and Abbreviations (Alan E Branch) Neither books are anthologies; however, the first is filled with folklore and superstitions about the sea, boats, tankers, sailors, etc. The other might be a useful reference tool. Good luck, Mill PS: You might also check out anthologies about New England folklore--which may contain whaling stories. I used to have such a book, but couldn't locate it when I tried this morning!@ From JforJames at aol.com Thu Aug 30 10:30:04 2001 From: JforJames at aol.com (JforJames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:30:04 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Young Poet Breaking In Message-ID: <9a.197b83cd.28bfa7ec@aol.com> ?In the Garden of Editorial Delights? Featured on the About Contemporary Lit site this week is Part II of Jason Grey's essay series on the life of a young poet, this one focusing on first publication. http://contemporarylit.about.com/library/weekly/aa081701a.htm From ARND1 at worc.ac.uk Thu Aug 30 06:33:49 2001 From: ARND1 at worc.ac.uk (Arnold, David) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:33:49 gmt Subject: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay Message-ID: <01Aug30.103245bst.119043@oswald.worc.ac.uk> The Annie Finch essay - "Coherent Decentering: Towards A New Model Of The Poetic Self" - sounds interesting. I heard echoes of "partial local coherence". it also reminded me of Michael Palmer's suggestion (made in 1994) that 'now' might be a good time to rearticulate authenticity. Where could we find Finch's essay, please? David Arnold Dr David Arnold Lecturer in English and Literary Studies University College Worcester Henwick Grove Worcester WR2 6AJ 01905 855298 From Henry_Gould at brown.edu Thu Aug 30 10:10:30 2001 From: Henry_Gould at brown.edu (Henry Gould) Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2001 10:10:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] re: scylla Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20010830100715.00a99af0@postoffice.brown.edu> The Dardanelles, or Hellespont, were famously dire straits. Leander drowned there trying to cross over to his lover Hero, who then drowned herself to join him. Resulting in a number of famous poems, ie. "Hero and Leander", by Marlowe. . . Henry ******************************************************** HG afloat: www.nedgemagazine.com * www.xlibris.com/HenryGould.html www.spuytenduyvil.net * www.jacket.zip.com.au * www.unf.edu/mudlark "Read it back to me, quietly, quietly." - O. Mandelstam From Cadaly at aol.com Fri Aug 31 12:48:47 2001 From: Cadaly at aol.com (Cadaly at aol.com) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 12:48:47 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay Message-ID: <14e.38b3f0.28c119ef@aol.com> I'm sure it is in one of her books, but there's also her excellent web site which generously includes a number of essays, syllabi, etc.: http://www.muohio.edu/~finchar -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU Fri Aug 31 13:37:16 2001 From: GrahamD at Mail.Ripon.EDU (Graham, David) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2001 12:37:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay Message-ID: <4BBBE1EC8182D511BF9800508BBD75990BDEAF@mail.ripon.edu> Annie Finch's excellent essay ("Coherent Decentering: Towards A New Model Of The Poetic Self") first appeared in an issue of Fence magazine in Fall/Winter 2000-01--in a symposium on "subjectivity and style." She later expanded it for Kate Sontag's and my anthology *After Confession: Poetry as Autobiography*, due out any day now from Graywolf. A revised version of Claudia Rankine's essay from the same issue of Fence also appears in our collection, along with many other delights. When the book is actually available I'll post more info on it, but (plug plug) it's already ready for pre-ordering from Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and your favorite independent bookshop. The original Fence issue is well worth looking up. Partial contents (including Rankine but not Finch) available online: http://www.fencemag.com/v3n2/index.html David Graham =================== David Graham grahamd at mail.ripon.edu =================== > ---------- > From: Cadaly at aol.com > Reply To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Friday, August 31, 2001 11:48 AM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Annie Finch essay > > I'm sure it is in one of her books, but there's also her excellent web > site > which generously includes a number of essays, syllabi, etc.: > > http://www.muohio.edu/~finchar >